The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-22 00:00:00

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord PALMERSTON said, as the private business was
now nearly at an end, he thought the time had arrived when
some advance might be made in public business between
four o'clock and half-past. When there was no actual
business before the house, perhaps it might be convenient
that the public business should begin at a quarter past four
instead of half-past.
CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS.

Mr. COCHRANE moved a resolution, that the evidence
taken before the select committee on civil service examina-
tions proves that the system of examinations should be
modified in order to meet the requirements of the public
service. He read extracts of the evidence, in which heads
of departments and practical official men testified that no
advantage had accrued to the public service from the sys-
tem since 1855, and adduced examples from the military
examination papers of the questions put to candidates,
which, h© contended, were not calculated to test their powers
and intelligence.
After some remarks by Mr. HENNESSY and Mr. MILNES,

Lord STANLEY, chairman of the committee, observed
that Mr. Cochrane had raised two questions—one as to the
merits or demerits of the system, the other as to the report
of the committee, which he had alleged to be contrary to the
evidence. With reference to the latter, he remarked that
Mr. Cochrane had quoted only a small number of the wit-
nesses; but he showed that the evidence of even these wit-
nesses was, in fact, favourable to the system. Without
defending all the questions in the Examination Papers cited
by Mr. Cochrane, they were not, he said, put by the Civil
Service Commissioners, and therefore had nothing to do with
the motion before the house. Lord Stanley then discussed
the general question as to the merits of the system, and of
limited and unlimited competition, concluding with a vin-
dication of the fidelity of the report.
Mr. BENTINCK complained of the total irresponsibility
of the Civil Service Commissioners.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
entirely superfluous to make any further reply to Mr. Coch-
rane after the very able speech of Lord Stanley, but he added
other proofs of the unfair manner in which Mr. Cochrane,
blinded, he said, by the strength of his feelings, had dealt
with the evidence, showing that he was not sufficiently
mindful of what was due to the Civil Service Commissioners,
who were charged with a most important duty.)
Lord R. CECIL remonstrated against the severity with
which Mr. Cochrane had been treated by Lord Stanley and
Mr. Gladstone. He had been charged, he said, almost
with garbling the evidence, but he contended that, so far
from exaggerating, Mr. Cochrane had rather understated
th 6 evidence against the new system. He stated the
grouncL4 of his objection to the system and to its administra-
tion by a secret and irresponsible tribunal, which made the
system one full of danger.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE defended the report of the com-
mittee, and insisted upon the vices attending the old no-
mination system, which 11. ad been extinguished by the
competitive system.
Mr. MAGUIRE spoke in opposition to the motion, which
was negatived.
THE FORTIFICATIONS AT SPITHEAD.
Sir M. PETO desired to call the attention of the house
to the tature of the fortifications about to be erected at
Spithead with reference to the very great changes now taking
place in naval armaments ; and to inquire if the Govern-
ment intended to reconsider the question whether floating
batteries would not prove more effective for the defence of
the arsenal than the forts propnsed to be constructed on the
shoals. He did not wish in any way to deprive the Gov'ern-
ment of the money which had been placed at their disposal
for fortifications or otherwise, but to direct attention to the
mode in which that money was proposed to be expended.
That a great mistake was about to be committed was not
his opinion only. Admiral Dundas had expressed a very
decided opinion to the same effect. Floating batteries were
much preferable to forts, which, however powerful, could
never be effective beyond the range of their own guns. They
could only protect a portion of Spithead, sad the commis-
sioners themselves admitted that the forts when erected
could not prevent iron ships passing them. They would
therefore be practically useless, for vessels taking up a po-
sition out of the range of the forts would be able to shell
the whole of Portsmouth Dockyard. The commissioners
admitted that to make them effective the forts would re-
quire the assistance of explosive machines, which worn
tried by the Russians during the Crimean war and signally
failed, and of a certain number of iron-clad vessels as a re-
serve. It was said that these forts would protect a large
number of merchant ships and hulks ; but if these vesaets
were attacked by an enemy, the forts durst not fire for fear
of injuring their friends as much as their foes. If they did
fire, the smoke from the first two or three discharges would
prevent the gunners distinguishing objects, and they would
t
become useless. In his opinion, Portsmouth could not in
the future continue to be what it was now, our great re-
pairingas o beyfoarrde, and
they
commenced
ee
nr therefore e a
n urgedexpenditure the
w hi
which
said wGovernmentth they
would amount to £840,000, but which might amount
to 4810,000.
The"
Pray, let us alone. other day a friend of his argued this
question with one or hThCeoftmmissioners, who at last said
they
siriceannddaor3epneo eoarheadrmto,and
will be a great menace.” That
think
was not what we wanted,
and could be of no service to
Sir F. SMITH said his hen.
that
shoals
lned to ships, h
the defence of Portsmouth ought try
on
shaovuig
and that no land defences or forts
u
erected. For his own part, he had long been convinced to
thatbe
these forts at Spithead were requisite.
lie had for 20 years
been officially engaged in considering the defences of Ports-
mouth and of the Solent, and he had never doubted the ad-
visability of erecting such forts as these. His opinion in that
respect was shared by all the most eminent naval and mai.
tary officers whom he had consulted. The whole of the coast
in the vicinity of Spithead was, if he interpreted the inten-
tions of the Government rightly, to be furnished with
powerful batteries, and would not their range, he would ask,
be equal to that of those ships which it was said might
bombard the dockyards? He only hoped the Government
would not relax in their determination to construct these
batteries on the shoals in question, but that theyjwould cause
them to be erected with all possible despatch. He wished,
ho might add, t,) know under what department the experi-
wigs were being conducted as to what thickness of iron

was to be regarded as shot-proof were being conducted. If
they were being carried on under the War Department and
the Admiralty conjointly, he feared the •advances made
would be of a very slow character; indeed, as it was they
were open to that charge. He might further observe that
if the works on the coast were armed with the 3001 b. guns
which were ordered to be made, his hon. friend opposite
must, he thought, come to the conclusion that if this
phantom fleet entered the Solent it would not be allowed
to rest there long. The proposed batteries, indeed, on the
shoals, would form so strong a point cr appui, that in the
face of them no enemy would, in his opinion, ever enter
into the Solent. That being his conviction, he must
again impress upon the Government the necessity of
pushing on those works with the utmost vigour. Revert-
ing also to the subject of the experiments which were
being made, he must say that he did not think they were
being carried on with sufficient energy, and that the num-
ber of persons employed in prosecuting them ought to be
doubled, nay, if necessary, quintupled, in order to bring
them to an immediate issue.

Admiral DUNCOMBE, notwithstanding the high autho-
rity of the hon: and gallant gentleman who had just spoken,

must contend that nothing would be more suicidal than to
construct at once, and without due consideration, those
forts along the shoals at Spithead. Taking into account the
uncertain state in which the proper construction of iron-
plated ships and the efficiency of fortifications had been
placed by recent experiments, the Government would not,
he thought, be justified in proceeding at once to incur so
large an expenditure as must be consequent upon the build-
ing of the proposed forts.

Capt. JERVIS could not concur with the hon. and gal-
lant member for Chatham in blaming the members of the
committee who were carrying on the experiments to which
he alluded with having performed their duties slowly, inas-
_ . _

much as they had within a period of three months shown
that much of the expenditure of the French Government
was useless, and that we must take care not to lay out

money in the same way.
Lord PALMERSTON—My hon. friend the member for
Finsbury has:adopted the views of a very intelligent officer,
Capt. Cole, and no doubt prima facie there is something
very plausible in them ; but I confess that, after full reflec-
tion, and after hearing the arguments on both sides, I can-
not concur in the conclusion at which the hon. baronet has
arrived. It is somewhat remarkable that in this very
short discussion we have had military men arciii,36 in fa-
vnor of forts, and naval men arguing in favour of floating

defences. So it will always be, and that was one of the

difficulties which the Government experienced in coming
to a decision upon the matter. But I think the argument
is entirely in favour of forts as against ships. Let us just
consider for a moment what the object is which we have
in view. That object is the security of Portsmouth. What

is it that Portsmouth is to be attacked by ? By a fleet
coming into Spithead. Now, that fleet, as may be supposed,
would be the strongest fleet that the enemy, whoever he may
be, could concentrate upon that point. It would consist of
ships of the largest size, and of the most formidable arma-
ment, and to meet those ships we ought to have a fleet of
equal strength. Does my hon. friend propose that we
should have permanently stationed at Spithead 10 iron-cased
ships of the largest dimensions and of the most formidable
armament, equal to any fleet that might be brought into
Spithead for the purpose of attacking Portsmouth? Why,
unless your fleet were equal in force to any fleet that might
be brought there you would only lay in store for yourselves
defeat and disaster. You are, then, for the defence of an
arsenal which is useful only for the creation of a fleet, which
fleet is to operate wherever required, to look upon another
fleet equal in size and strength to the one produced at the
place which it is Sour object to defend. (Hear.) Again,
you could never reckon upon having your floating defences
on the spot when they were wanted. If there was an alarm
upon another part of the coast do you imagine that the Go-
vernment would allow these ten formidable ships—ships
which must necessarily be of the first class—to remain at
anchor at Spithead ? Public opinion and the wants of the
service would cause these ships to be sent elsewhere; and
then, when the enemy, having made a feint at Plymouth or
in some other direction, came to Spithead, your floating de-
fences would not be there. (Hear.) Take the expense.
The forts we propose will, probably, not cost so much as the
large fleet which, according to the theory of Captain Cole,
would be permanently stationed at Spithead, for the pur-
pose of defending Portsmouth. Moreover, the ships would
decay ; they would require constant repair ; they would
require a large body of sailors to man and work them.
A much larger number of men would be required in the
ships than in the forts we propose to construct. In point
of economy, therefore, either in first construction or in
maintenance, or permanence, the balance of opinion is
in favour of forts as against ships. They woul I require less
money to make them, they would require less money to
keep them in repair, they would require fewer men to man
and work them, and they would be always on the spot. My
hon. friend says that ships could not be hit from the points
at which these forts are to be built. I doubt that statement.

There seems to be scarcely any limit to the power of modern
artillery, but there is a limit to the resisting power of ships,
because there is a limit to the capacity of ships to float with
a certain weight upon them ; and I defy you to construct a
ship covered with iron coating of sufficient thickness to
repel the heavy shots which are now sent from cannon, and
yet to be buoyant enough to float in tho water. (Hear.) But
that is not the case with a fort. There is no floating in a
fort. You may make the walls of your fort as thick as ex-
perience may show to be necessary to resist the attack of
the heaviest ordnance. Then, ordnance of a certain weight is
unmanageable in a floating ship. You may have your guns
upon deck, but upon deck they are exposed to the fire of the
adversary, and may be soon disabled. In the embrasures pf
a fort they are protected. You may have any amount of
ordnance in a fort. You are limited in regard to the weight
of ordnance which you can put on board ship, whereas you
may have in these forts guns of any calibre ; and I venture
to say, in spite of all the calculations that have been made,
that if the forts at Spithead were to be constructed and
armed with such cannon as Sir W. Armstrong and others
are able to put into them, any skips which might come to
attack Portsmouth would very soon be sent to keep com-
pany with the Royal George. (A laugh.) Therefore, though
I quite agree with my hon. friend that in a matter of this
sort, in which repeated experiments are necessary to enable
you t• feel sure that what you are doing will answer your
purpose, you ought to proceed with the utmost care and cir-
cumspection, yet, on the other hand, I concur with the hon.
and gallant member for Chatham that no time should be
lost, and I am quite sure that the course which the Govern-
ment have determined to adopt with respect to the construc-
tion of these forts is the course which ought to be pursued. My
hon. friend says, truly enough, that there are defects in Ports-

friend
tmh make k
question thatw ll bear observationabi
favour
of
dfauinottnhuea
neri nmtl
ingenious
mouth arising from an insufficient depth of water, and that
some other place may be found better adapted for the
building of an iron fleet. That is one of the considera-
tions which led the Government to think that Chatham
r angi
ngeact
ndiohani
tmtestsshpteNaevwptnhtcehosimrhacomhbdalyelitaeshnhc.
Capt.amueomnnsylst
might be made useful to the public service. I only
PI
net ear
anhfi
udi:ne floatinggoaefsnhes whenndockyard
neni
defences,
Hear,een opinionhea
ss
is,
trhear,"ihgnaetds
don't mean to say they may not be assisted by floating
defences. We cannot rely upon permanent defences alone,
but no doubt you would always have at Portsmouth a cer-
tain number of ships to assist your forts, and your forts
and ships together would be sufficient. It is said that
these forts would serve as buoys to ena.',le the ships of
the enemy to arrive at Spithead. Does anybody really
imagine that any naval Power on the continent else-
where would require the assistance of these forts to find
their way to the anchorage at Spithead ? (Hear.) We have
charts which indicate with the greatest nicety the course
which ships ought to pursue. We know well that all foreign
Governments which have navies are in possession of these
charts. We also know that visits of vessels of war belong-
ing to foreign Powers have not been unfrequent, and that
there is no part of our coast which has not been accurately
surveyed, and which is not as familiar to the naval officers
of other countries as to the officers of our own service.
(Hear.) So much, thee, for the subject to which my hon.
friend has called attention. I am bound to say that there is
nothing in his arguments or his figures which leads me to
think that the Government have arrived at a wrong conclu-
Edon. Before sitting down I may be allowed to answer a ques-
tion put by an hon. and gallant member opposite with respect
to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. The question is what
are the relations between the lord-lieutenant and the govern-
ment, and whether Lord Carlisle intends to continue
in the performance of his duties in Dublin. Without going
into the question of the Galway contract, I may say that the
relations between the Lord •Lieutenant and the Government
are the relations fixed by law and by usage, that the rela-
tions actually existing between Lord Carlisle and her Majes-
ty's Ministers are of the best possible description, and that
I have no reason for supposing that my noble friend is not
ne filing to continue his valuable public services. (A. laugh.)
Mr. BENTINCIi believed that the expenditure of a
large sum upon theca forts without any better information
than was at present possessed would be a waste of money.
Captain Cole's opinion was shared by nearly all the expe-
rienced members of the profession, and the two reports
which had issued from the commission were entirely con-
tradictory. On the question of annoyance from smoke, he
believed a ship would have the advantage over a fort, be
cause a ship movel cut of her own smoke, which the other
did not.

Sir 11. VERNEY said he had hoard naval men declare
repeatedly that if the buoys wereremoved from Spithead no
fleet—not even the English—could enter the harbour.
(Hear, hear.) If it were true that there was no limit to the
power of artiller,T, he thought it would be much better to
build the forts, not upon the sandbanks, but nearer to the
shore.
Mr. T. G. BARING thought the fair way to put the
question was this :—lf a foreign commander had his choice,
would he rather have the forts to show him the way into
Spithead or not? (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) A naval
officer who NVIS reckoned ono of the ablest surveyors afloat
said that wall a simple chart he could pilot a fleet int 9
head during the greatest fog which was ever known in the
Channel, With regard to the apprehended inconvenience
from
diffiomspcouklety of in
tb.cthl kBeniiinad forts,utedzed bet
awl 4e r
entssh owed that
no a
also state that a tender had actually been received for the
construction of one of the forts, at a price less than was

originally estimated. (Hear, hear.) Honourable gentle-
men who were disposed to underrate the labours of the
commission forgot that two of the most distinguished offi-
cers in the navy, Admiral Elliott and Captain Cooper Key,
were upon that commission, and brought to its inquiries
the advantage of their great experience in scientific know-
ledge. In reply to two questions which had been addressed
to him in the course of the discussion he wished to mention
that £20,000 would be taken this year for the supply of ad-
ditional articles to the soldiers ; it was not proposed to give
all the articles which had been recommended at once, but
when these were all issued there would be equal to an extra
pay of ld. a day. The Committee on Iron Plates carried
on its experiments under the joint authority of the War-
office and the Admiralty, both those departments being in-
terested in the result of its investigations.
The house then resolved itself into Committee of
SUPPLY.

Mr. WILLIAMS said at that hour (five minutes to 12
o'clock) it was too late for discussion ; and he therefore
begged to move that the Chairman report progress.
Mr. T. G. BARING hoped the hon. gentleman would
allow the first vote to be taken.

The sum of £179,407 for works, buildings, and repairs
for civil buildings at home and abroad was agreed to.
On the motion to report progress,

Lord PALMERSTON said he should not oppose that
motion; but he hoped hon. gentlemen would recollect that
there were 203 votes, and that they had made very little
progress.

Mr. HENLEY said that there was a great stir at the
beginning of the session to give Tuesday for Supply, but
the Government had not availed themselves very much of
the advantage thereby afforded to them.

Mr. WILLIAMS thought that a whole evening should
be given to Supply. This evening had been consumed in
the delivery of speeches, several of which were left unan-
swered ; so that the discussion had been of a very desultory
character. (Laughter.)

Colonel DICKSON had asked a question on the subject
of the functions of the *Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to
which he had received no further answer from the noble
lord at the head of the Government than the statement of
a mere truism. (Laughter.) He should take care to renew
the subject on a future occasion.

The motion for reporting progress was then agreed to, and
the house resumed.

DURHAM UNIVERSITY BILL.

On the order for tho second reading of this bill,
Mr. FENWICK moved, as an amendment, the adjourn•
ment of the debate.

The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the bill was read a second time.

The Chatham Dockyard Enlargement Bill went through
committee.

COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS.

On the motion of Mr. M. GIBSON, the house resolved
itself into committee, when leave was given to bring in a
bill to amend the law relating to the copyright of designs.
The right hon. gentleman explained that the object of the
bill was simply to give effect to the 12th article of the
French treaty.
The bill was read a first time.

CHURCH ENDOWMENT ACT AMENDMENT.
Leave was given to Mr. BOUVERIE to bring in a Bill to
amend the Act 6th and 7th Victoria, cap. 37, entitled " at
Act to make Better Provision for the Spiritual Care of
Populous Parishes."
The Bill was read a first time.

On the motion of Mr. BARING, the Select Committee on
Cadastral Survey was ordered to consist of 17 members I IN
Mr. Hassard and Mr. Wyld were then added to the
Committee.

The house adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock.

POOR INCUMBENCIES.

(From the Times.)
Convocation certainly appears determined to do
something or other to mark its brief session. We
notice an extraordinary proposal, which has just
passed the Upper House, to institute a weekly
Offertory for the augmentation of " poor incum-
bencies." Now, first with respect to the Offertory
itself. A weekly Offertory is not the natural form
of generosity and liberality in this age. There is a
stiff, ceremonial look about it, which people do not
like. Most people think the morning service long
enough already, without an additional quarter of an
hour being forced upon them for the purpose of
proving that the ultimate object of bringing them
to church is to make a demand upon their pockets.
It is quite true that in particular congregations,
especially some London congregations, the weekly
Offertory flourishes. But then these congregations
are picked ones. The huge mass of population
around supplies the required number of homogene-
ous units to make up a congregation of one school.
This school likes the Offertory. The Offertory is
one of its ideas. They give to the Offertory, there-
fore, with a relish, and a large Offertory is not only
a triumph of charity, but also the victory of a theo-
logical conception. But introduce the arrangenient
into another church, and it makes no way at all. It
is not one of the ideas of the congregation. You
way say it will become one, if it is pressed, and if
people are familiarised with it ; but that is a very
hazardous game. In our opinion, it is far more
likely to empty our churches, and drive people else-
where. Men do not ordinarily like an arrangement
any the better for its being forced upon them ; and,
instead of forming a habit, you are increasing an
aversion.

But a weekly Offertory for the augmentation of
small livings is indeed a very extraordinary con-
ception, and we are much mistaken if nine out of
ten even of the clergy themselves will not laugh
considerably at the idea as soon as they hear of it.
Imagine the surprise with which ninety-nine congre-
gations out of a hundred will hear the announce-
ment of the new claimant upon their alms. The
inadequately beneficed clergy ! We do not dispute
for a moment that many of the clergy, even
the clergy who have livings, are very ill off. We
are perfectly aware also that respectable poverty,
which has to keep up appearances of some kind, is
often worse off than the poverty of lower life.
Nobody can tell all the pinching, and pressing, and
grinding, and paring that goes on in juxtaposition
with a very correct-looking morning and evening
dress. But, unfortunately for the strength of this
claim upon popular sympathy, popular charity is to
a very;large extent an appeal to the eye. If your
poor incumbent will, in spite of the inner martyr-
dom, persist in looking so respectable, so smooth, so
correct, so shining, and so glistening, it is not to be
expected that much emotion will be felt. The
crowd are no philosophers; they want a good
downright visible case to rouse them. Let
wretchedness come forth like a man, and the chal-
lenge is irresistible, but the mass has a difficulty
in penetrating into inner worlds of pain and heart-
gnawings which go on beneath good coats and
waistcoats. It so happens that, while the poor
clergy are an undoubtedly existing fact, they are
at the same time the most invisible class in the com-
munity. You may go everywhere, looking right
and left for one; they are on all sides of you thick
as bees, but they are as effectually hid as if they
lived in the bowels of the earth. You may desire
from sheer curiosity, to see a phenomenon which
you have heard so much of, but, even with the
assistance of your most clearsighted friends and
neighbours, not to say even of the police, if called
for, you cannot get at it. What is the explanation
of this mystery ? We suppose it is that in a certain
rank of life appearances are the first thing attended
to. They must be considered, at whatever cost,
and whatever else has to give way to them. The
gentleman must look like one of his class ; the lady
the same ; the children must look like genteel chil-
dren ; there may be defects distinguishable by
sharp eyes, but the look of the surface must be the
same as the look of other surfaces. All this excrior,
however, while it sharpens the tooth of poverty
within, has at the same time the unlucky effect of
concealing the fact of poverty. There is no appeal to
the eye. Imagine, then, our ordinary congregations
called upon to contribute every week, as a part of the
church service, to the augmentation of minor bene-
fices and the wants of the poor clergy. They will
immediately say, " Where are these poor parsons ?
" Let us see the poor miserable creatures; we want
to loJk at them; our pity is ready at the proper
notice, but we must have something visible and
tangible to excite it." Convocation, if it persists
in this scheme, will have to send forth every six
months a ragged regiment of parsons, in order to
sustain the popular sympathy at its proper pitch,
and really substantiate the belief in the existence
of poor clergy at all. This will be a positively ne•
cessary part of the machinery of the scheme. It is
no sort of use expecting or dreaming that common
congregations will give one farthing to the heart
which aches underneath exceptionable broadcloth
or a well selected fashionable print and volatile
bonnet. We have no duubt that an experienced
lady's eye will detect a difference in the dress of a
poor parson's wife and a squire's wife or a rich
rectors wife, but to the eye of the mass of any con-
gregation a gentleman is a gentleman, and a lady a
lady ; and if two people will persist in looking so
very like other gentlemen and ladies they must
take the consequence which is so complimentary to
their efforts. Neither the hat nor the plate will go
round for them ; at least, if it does, it will go its
circuit without much replenishing. If you appeal
to the mass, you must have a spectacle, you must
have a fact, you must have something which has an
outside as well as an inside, and a very palpable
outside too. You must advertise upon a broad and
striking scale. You must study pictorial designs
and striking effects. The pity of the crowd has a
strong theatrical principle in it you must consult
this taste, or your attempt will be a dead failure.
You must do the thing artistically, and achieve the
proper combination which unites, in the telling
spectacle of clerical indigeney, a eelea and sacred
dignity with tier want of buttons, and a truly
poetical expression with darns. The parson in
rags must preach eloquently though mutely, his
wile must weep irresistibly upon torn muslin, And
~