The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-13 00:00:00

rHE_ SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 13, 1857

nor any one connected with a public department ought
to spend the public money without the sanction of Par-
liament, yet circumstances might arise snaking it abso-
lut<ly necessary and expedient that money should be
spent without waiting for that sanction. His right hon.
friend bad said that it wa+ the practice for the Office of
Works to spend sums of public money without a vote
of the house ; and, fencing done so and executed the
works, that then the First Commissioner came down
to Parliament, and asked that money might be
voted for the purpose of paying the expense of the works
carried on by his authority under the sanction of the Tres-
Bury. He could assure his right hon. friend that, whatever
had been the practice in former years, such was not the
practice at present. In looking through the estimates fee.
the present year he found very few cases, and those of a
very pressing nature, of works for which charges were
made without the authority of Parliament. His right
hon. friend had called attention to two sums especially,
one of which was on aeon ant of the construction of the
c'ock, which he would allude to at once. He found that
there was an agreement made with Mr. Dent, the maker
of the clock, to the effect that as soon as the gentlemen
to whom the matter was referred gave a certificate that
the clock was in a proper state and went well and ought
to be purchased, a sum should be paid on account. He
therefore was bound, as soon as he was called on by Mr
Dent, to ask the referees whether they would give a cer-
tificate, and on receiving it he was bound to write to the
Treasury asking for the amount which he thought Mr.
Dent fairly entitled to under the circumstances. Another
item was occasioned by the distribution of the Crimean
medal. That was a matter which could not he foreseen,
and 1,600/. were paid on account of it. There was a
charge for ventilation, but that matter, he believed, was
determined by a committee of that house before he was
in the office he now held.. His right hon. friend bad
called the attention of the house to the state of the ac-
counts of the office. He was not aware that that ques-
tion would have been brought forward, otherwise he
would have been better prepared to give explanation re-
specting it. He was bound to say that, from circum-
stances over which he had no control, he found, when he
first went to the Office of Works, the accounts in a m st
unsatisfactory state. This was owing to circumstance+
which the house wouid admit rendered it to some extent
excusable. He found that the gentleman who was ptin-
cipal secretary in the office bad not, in consequence of
severe illness, attended the office for 11 months,. and the
assistant-secretary very shortly after he (Sir B. Hall)
entered the office was seized with a malady which affected
his head. This gentleman in consequence left the office
very soon, and was now in a very unfortunate state.
Other matters connected with the office, which it was
not nece.ssary for him now to enter upon, also contributed
to occasion the bad state of the accounts ; but he might
state that no less than 444 queries had been sent from
the Audit-office to be answered by the Office of Works,
and of them he believed there were not 30 in allusion to
the accounts passed during the time he had the honour
to fill his present office. All those 444 queries had been
answered during the time he had been in the office to
the satisfaction of the Audit-office, and he believed that
the accounts of the office were now in a most satisfac.
tery state. He had only to repeat, with respect to the
expenditure on St. James's Park, a large sum of money
would hereafter be saved in consequence of the course
which had been adopted.
Mr. BENTINCK thought that what bad occurred
within the last few years ought to teach the house and
the country that nothing was so prejudicial or extrava-
gant as mistaken economy, and he asked why it was
that, while there was a disinclination on the part of Go-
vernment to ask for sums necessary for the defences of
the country, there appeared a disposition to make a
wasteful and extravagant expenditure for works the ne•
cessity of which could net be justified. He thought
there ought to be some head having a general control
over the expenditure of the country, in order that there
might be a security that what money the house voted
should be applied to legitimate of jests—to works neces-
sary for the safety of the country—and not squandered
on such absurd ;ft ijects as the making of a fish-pond.
The SPEAKER—I must remind the hon. gentleman
that it will he prs,per is discuss questions of detail in
committee, arid not at present. The right hon. Bart. has
confined himself to the general question whether a cer-
tain sum of money should be expended without the sanc-
tion of Parliament
Mr. BE NTINCK said he thought he bad conveyed to
the house the impression that he intended to discuss the
principle refereed to. He contended that money for beau-
tifying the metropolis ougnt not to be supplied by the
public purse, but by means ofa local rate. There was an
increase of 24,0001. for parks and gardens, whilst there
was a diminution of nearly 100,0001. for harbours of re
fuge. The public money ought to be expended on useful
and national objects, and not frittered away in the man-
ner it was 'sow done. (Hear.)
Sir D. NORREYS thought the right hon. baronet had
made out something like a justification of the course he
had pursued ; but whilst he placed every confidence in
bins, he recommended the house to watch him as mar-
roely as possible. (Laughter.)
Mr. B. HOPE did not agree with the hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Bentinck) that the decoration of the me-
tropolis was not a legitimate expenditure of the taxation
of the country. If improvements were not carried on, the
metropolis would be reduced to a state of disorganisation
and barbarism. According to the hon. gentleman no
money ought to be expended for objeots in which all the
people did not participate. How he would ask the hon.
member what benefit the inhabitants of the midland
counties derived from harbours of refuge 'I (Laughter.)
Lord 3. MANNERS said that as the attention of .the
right hon. gentleman (Sir B. Hall) had been directed to
the improvement of the lakes, he did not see why be had
not called the attention of Parliament to the subject.
(Hear.) The complaints of medical men referred not
only to the water in St. James's-park, but to the other
parks, and especially to the Serpentine. Is was no new
thing for gentlemen in the position of the right hon.
baronet to be waited on by medical men with respect to
the Serpentine. He was afraid that at the end of the
session the right hon. gentleman might endeavour to im-
press on the Treasury the necessity of interfering with
the Serpentine without consulting Parliament on the
subject ; and trusted the discussion would not terminate
without an intimation from the Government that such a
request would not be assented to without giving hon.
members an opportunity of fully considering the matter
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought they could not ex-
aggerate the importance of the question before them,
That question was whether that house was to be a con-
trol over the public expenditure. His opinion was that
it was eientrol in the nature of 'moonshine. Tuey did
not know whether the grants of last year were expeuded
or no*. If the Commissioner of Works could spend
14,0001. without authority on a lake and a sewer, what
sf carity had they that he would not spend 40,000/. ? He
asked if 8751. was not voted for that sewer last year ;
and what was the meaning of expending 3,725/. over it
now ; and what was the meaning of a Treasury minute ?
Then 11,000/. bad been expended in sending the ducks
and drake; away. Was that the sum authorised by the
Treasury letter of the 27th of August, 1856, a few days
after Parliament was prorogued, or did he expend it
under the authority of the Treasury letter of April,
1857 ? Would the house sanction that sort of expen•
diture ? If so, their debates on matters ofpfinance were
utterly useless. He trusted that a resolution would be
brought forward and. carried that such expenditure was
a violation of the privileges of that house.
Mr. AYRTON tendered his thanks to the right h-n
baronet (Sir B. Hall), but when he came to the explana-
tion he did not bear a word of it. He trusted that
another time when he got up to mike an explanation he
would make himself heard. (Oh.)
Mr. MOWBRAY remarked that this was not the
only unauthorised expenditure. Lest year there was an
expenditure of several thousands on fireworks—(a laugh)
—without authority, thougn Parliament was sitting.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,.
with regard to the fireworks, it would be in the recollec-
tion of gentlemen who were members of the house at the
time that the question was asked about the amount of
the expenditure, which was answered by members of
the Government, and it was stated that the money would
be paid out of the civil contingencies, which, as the house
was aware, were voted in a gross sum.
Mr. HENLEY said Sir F. Baring had complained
that Government without sufficient cause had expended
money without the sanction of Parliament, and the an-
swer that the fireworks were paid for out of the eivil
contingencies did not give them any security that such
expenditure would not be repeated. The Commissioner
of Works heaving suspended the proposed suspension
bridge at the claire of the last session of Parliament got
authority from the Treasury in August to do certain
other things. That certainty was a queer time, jest after
the close of Parliament. He thought something bad
happened to the right hon. baronet from his short con-
nection with the Board of Health. He always thought
that when a parson was inoculated with sanitary views it
was a bad thing for their pockets. (A laugh.) He hoped
that his successor would not go through the same train-
ing. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Norfolk
as to the injustice of taxing the country at large for the
benefit of the metropolis, but that objection did not
apply in this case, as tnis money was used for one of the
royal parks.

_
Tne motion that the Speaker leave the chair was then
agreed to, and the house went into eornrnmittee.
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

The house then went into Committee of Supply, Mr,
FITZIIOY in the chair.

wr, WILSON said that before placing in the hair's
of the chairman the first vote which he intended to pro-
pose he designed, in pursuance of the notice be had
given, to make a general statement with regard to the
great increase that had taken plAce in the expenditure
upon certain votes in the Civil Service Estimates. The
hon. baron( t (Sir H. Willoughby) had, indeed, ques-

tioned whether he would be quite in order in making
that statement after going into Committee of Supply,
As for as he was concerned it was a mattcr of indiff- r-
oue° whether he male that statement before going into
Committee of Supp y or in Committee of Supply; but
the question having been referred to the right hon. pri-
ma', in the chair, to whom it must ba the wish of the
house to defer, a❑d the right hon. gentleman having, as
he thought, on good grounds decided that this statement
would be best made in Committee of Supply, he hoped
that he should be held to pursue the best and most con
sistent course in adopting that plan. He was aware that
it was a novel practice to make a general statement on
going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Sttrvice
Estimates, but circumstances bad somewhat. changed of
late in recard to these estimates. Some years ago the
Civil Service Estimates amounted to a very small sum:
It was customary in those days to place every descrip
tion of civil expenditure upon the Consdidated Fund,
but a more wlactle6oEneancl Parliamentary course had
been adopted, cf placing this expenditure upon the votes

of Parliament. These votes had now increased to so
large an amount that it was fair that Parliament should
occasionally—he did not say every year—be informed
of the grounds upon which this large expenditure
had taken place. In making this statement he
did not wish to set a precedent for the future,
but it was only just on the part of the Govern-
ment, seeing the evensive manner in which these
estimates had been criticised both in the house and the
country, that he should have an opportunity of explain-
ing the chief grounds on which the large increase had
taken place, in order that the House of Commons should
exercise its discretion and determine whether it would
proceed in the course it bad pur-ued of annually increas-
ing certain important votes, which had led to the aug-
mentation in these estimates. Hon. members would see
in Parliamentary paper No. 136 of the present session
the amount under every head of the civil expenditure as
it had been voted since 1830. Hon. members on casting
their eyes over this statement would find that since 1838
the amount of the Civil Service Estimates bad been in
creased from 2,393,0001. in that year to 6,724,0001. last
year. It must be admitted that this increase oft xpendi-
, tura was not unnaturally a subject of anxiety and alarm
I both in and out of the house ; but it had been caused in
a great measure by an alteration in the practice which
formerly prevailed of placing very large sums on the
, Consolidated Fund. For example, when it was deter-
mined to pay the charge for the Irish constabulary, that
charge amounting to 630,0001. per annum, am placed
' ou the Consolidated Fund, and was not found in the
civil estimates voted by Parliament. In those days all
the charges for the Board of Works, the land revenue,
the public parks and pleasure-grounds, were paid out of
' the revenue of those departments before it reached the
exchequer. That practice was now altered. The house
had not only properly prevented any expenditure from
being withdrawn, after collection of revenue, on its way
to the exchequer, but it bad entirely abandoned tbe plan
of placing charges upon the Consolidated Fund, whicb,
never coming before Parliament, by that means escaped
the attention of the House of Commons. Every new ex-
penditure provided by Acts of Parliament was now
placed in the annual votes of Parliament, and there-
fore the house was enabled to consider not only the
question to which the expenditure referred, but
also the amount and character of that expenditure.
He did not propose to trace back these estimates so
far a5,,1838, but in the discussions which took place
in the last session, and in the speeches since made out
of Parliament, it had almost become as familiar as a
household word, that the Civil Service Estimates had in
creased during the short period between 1852 and 1856
by 2,300,0001. He wag free to admit that this increase
was not only a fitting subject for discussion by that
house, but also by all who took an interest in the econo-
my of the public service ; and this being the paint' to
which public attention had more particularly been drawn
he proposed, avoiding a discussion of individual esti-
mates in committee, to call attention to the amount in
which this large expenditure bad- taken place, that the
house might see the exact amount of this increase and
the distribution of that amount, and determine wLether
it would proceed in the same course that it had of late
years pursued. As to the increase of expenditure, the
Government were not responsible. Every shilling of
that amount had been voted by the House of Commone,
and resulted from the deliberations and decisions of Par-
liament. It was therefore proper that the house should
now have the opportunity of seeing the result of the va-
rious acts that it had done during the last 4 or 5 yearv,
and of coming to a determination whether it would pro-
ceed in the same course for the future. He would now
read to the house the amount of the Civil Service Esti-
mates from 1852 to 1856. 1852, 4,407,7541 ; 1853,
4,802,3181. ; 1854, 6,648,522/. ; 1855, 6,686,062/. ;
1856, 6,724,2501. The committee would observe that
the estimates of 1854 showed an advance of 2,000,0001
upon 1852 ; that the estimates of '1855 were somewhat
leis than theme of 1854, and those of 1856 were some-
what greater. However the estimates for the last three
years —1854, 1855, and 1856—were nearly the same,
the great increase having taken place in 1854. He
would now give the increase of the estimates of the fol-
lowing years as compared with those.of 1852. That in-
crease gas asfollows:-1853, 394 6591.; 1854, 2 240,7691.
1855, 2,178,308/. ; 1856, 2,316,496/. What he pro-
f • ,ed was, not to trace the empires/ of the increase in each
year, but to take the year 18.56 the year of the largest
amount—and to represent the causes of the increase of
the years 1854 and 1855. In the first place, he must re-
mind the house of the existence of a strong feeling mani-
fested by the house on many occasions, and most of all
expressed by his hon. friend the member for Lambeth
(Mr. Williams), as to the inconvenience and loss that
arose from the fact that a large portion of the expendi-
ture imbedded in acts of Parliament was annually paid
out of the gross revenue on its way b the Exchequer,
that in these eases the House of Commons bad n's oppor-
tunity of saying a word on a single shilling of that ex
penditure, and had a ) opportunity of controlling it. His
right hon. friend Mr. Gladstone took steps to remedy
this defect, and among- the many signal services per-
formed by that right hon. gentleman none were of greaser
importance than this. -Early in the session of 1854 the
Treasury prepared, at the request of the Government, a
, bill for the purpose of transferring from the Consolidated
Fund all charges of a nature that eould`be voted by-Par-
'lament, and withdriveinieeem'the Customs, the Exche-
quer, and the other revenue departments all payments
either for salaries or other revenue
- -.ln pursuance of
that bill the Haase of -Commons in 1854 removed from
the Consolidated Fund 34 items Of public expenditure.
Therefore, in 1854 they voted for the first time for these
items no less a sum than 977,6001. By the same act they
transferred from the CuAoms 12-v-settee amounting to
205,8001. They also transferred from the navy and the
commissariat votes to the extent of 29,600/. For post-
ages transferred from army, navy, : and gross revenue,
they annually voted 85,000/. In addition to that, it had
been tbe custom to pay a great number of. persons -by
fees, but the house having condemned that practice, sala•
ries had been paid instead and the fees banded over to
the Exchequer. In some cases these fees had been con.
verted into stamp duties. Therefore a considerable num-
ber of new votes were represented by fees paid annually
into the Exchequer, or by stamp duties in lieu of fees,
the total amount of them-being 138,0001. Adding these
various sums together,. it would be found that no less
than 1,436,0001. of the increase Of 2,316,0001. had
been transferred 'from the other funds by which- they
had previously been -defrayed, and were now borne on
the annual votes of Parliament. This reduced the large
amount of 2.316,0001. which looked so alarming 'when
stated by itself, to only' 80,000/. There *as an in-
crease for education in Great Britain of 291,000/
in Ireland, 63,0001. e thealeparbment of science and art,
25,000/.; and the National. Gallery, 15,000/.—making
together 394,0001. 'A very,litege increase would again
be found in the educational vote this year ; and it the
present system was to continue they must expect the
augmentation of this item to proceed still further. In
1852 the entire educational vetes, including England
and Ireland, science, art, and the National Gallery,
amounted to 440,0001. In 1838 the corresponding sum
was only 30 000/ ; On 1836 it had risen as high as
759,000/. The sum proposed for the present year was
850,000 e; the vote for England alone considerably ex-
ceeded half a taillike This was a charge which was
entirely under the control of Parliament, and while such
conflicting opinions were held in this country on the sub-
ject of education, it must be some consolation to those
who were in favour of its extension to know that tee
causes they had at heart salt not being neglected either by
the Legislature or the G v remeet. The next item was
for Holyhead rfarbour and other barb mere of refuge.
-Upon this the increase in the plan of last year, as coin-
pared aid] that of 1852, was 180,000/. When the first
vote for Holyheaff Harbour was taken, a very large
scheme was proposed to Parliament, founded on the re•
commendation of the Admiralty ; bht owing to the
jealousy of Liverpool and the neighbouring ports, toge-
ther with a scepticism on the part of that house as to the
utility of the project, the undertaking was reduced from"
a plan that would cost 1,200,000/.—the original sum
suggested—to one that would cost only 808,000 e The
smaller project was-the one actually adopted; but to such
a remarkable degree had the expectations of those who
advocated the more extensive scheme been realised, that
even during the progress of the., works the harborer was
so much resorted to an its incomplete state, and so inade-
quate to receive the vessels having recourse thereto, that
the Government had been compelled to come down to ,
the house and propose increase after increase in the vote
until they had reached the highest amount contemplated
in the original plan, and the. • present estimate was
1,980,000/. The following table, taken from the report
of Captain Skinner, the superintendent of Holyhead
harbour, showed the number of vessels which had en- ,
tered from 1852.: . . ... .
No.. .. . . Tonnage.
1852 ... .o 514 . . ... 34.650
1853 ... ... 1,293 ... 106,392
1854 ••• ••. 1,788 ... 137,058
1855 ... ... .1,607 ' ... 119,413
1856 ••• ••• 2,394 ' .. '198,666
The importance of this harbour 'WArevery great, because
not only did the Irish postal packets go to and from it,
but it was for the convenience of the metropolis that the
American steamers should land theirletters, &c., when
they arrived off Holyhead. One cause of the large in-
crease upon this and similar workswas that it was found
advisable to complete them as expeditiously as possible.
It was due therefore to the exertions of the late Mr.
Rendell, who had had the supervision of this harbour,
and whose great professional abilities everybody would
admit (hear) —that they had been able to expend a
large sum in the execution of this undertaking in a sin-
gle year. If important public works of this kind were
to be carried out at all the quicker they were advanced
the better for the interests of the community. (An
ironical cry of " Hear, hear 1") While the works con-
tinued unfinished a vast capital was lying idle from
which the public derived no advantage, whereas—as
be begged to remind ben, gentlemen who cheered—the
sooner they were brought to completion the sooner
would the countey reap the benefit of its expenditure.
Although Holyhead and some other harbours would not
continue to be an annual charge to this extent, yet, from
the interest generally taken in the state of the harbours of
refuge along our coast, and from the absolute necessity of
these improveruonts, not only for the sake of the navy but
for the safety of life and property connected with our
mercantile marine,' it would be for the house to determine
whether it would persevere in outlays of this description
in time of peace. The next head of charge was 'printing
and stationery, the amount of which would no doubt pro-
duce some surprise. The increase since 1852 wail no less
than 211,0001. He should not be doing justice to Mr.
MeCullocb, who was at tho head of this department, if he
did not state his belief that no public servant ha dl exerted
himself more than that gentleman had done to economise
and keep down this expenditure; although cer iply his
control over it was but limited, the head of the s tionery
branch being as it were but a sort of warehousetna for the
ether departments. The charge for stationery head aug-
mented as follows :--
In 1818 it was
In 1852
_____

In 1856 • 451;000
This augmentation was subject to a diminution which tho

committee would view with satisfaction. The difference
between the items for 1852 and 1856 (242,00'0 was
composed thus :—the printing of patents had been trans-
ferred to the Stationery Department ; and though that
item now cost, the country 40,000/. a year, which was
included in this vote, yet the amount of fees paid into
the Exchequer was upwards of 100,0001. Instead, there-
fore, of this forming a charge, it was on the whole a
source of profit to the Exchequer. There was a sum of
30,0001. in respect of a transfer to the stationery-office
for the purchase of stamps on parchments, which were
repaid by the public in the purchase of those stamps.
There was therefore an amount of 70,00 which con-
sisted of a mere transfer from the Patent-office and the
Inland Revenue-office. Besides, the war bad caused a very
large increase in the demand for stationery. The house
was probably aware that it had been the policy of the
Government for many years past to bring into the St,-
tionery office the whole of the business connected with the
purchase of parer, books, and the printing of documents
for all the public depaitments ; and even to such an ex-
tent had that been carried that the cartridge paper for the
regiments had been purchased at the Stationery-office by the
Ordnance Department. (Flear.) It was obvious that the
gentleman who was at the head of the Stationery-office,
and who had frequently to make contracts with paper
manufacturers for every description of paper, was more
likely than the superintendent of the Ordnance Depart-
ment to enter into an advantageous contract for the sup-
ply of paper for the service of the army. In the War
Doper ment there lad been an increase of 65,0001. and
in that of the Admiralty an increase of 16,0001. making to-
gether 81,0001., a large portion of which might be considered
as temporary and attributed to the late war. As might
naturally be expected from the increase of public business,
the printing of that house had increased during the last few
years. There was an increase of 13,0001. under that head.
The Treasury and the Stationery-office would only be too
happy to check, if possible, that expenditure. The house
was aware that it rarely happened that motions for the
printing of returns were opposed by the Government ; and
why? Simply because the hon. members who made these
motions almost invariably said that they inten led to found
resolutions upon the papers for which they asked. But
when the pavers were printed, and they were frequently
very bulky, not more than five or six persons cared to read
or look at them. Thera were also increased charges as
follows : Parliamentary stationery, 3.000/. ; Foreign-
office, 3,0001. ; Board of Trade, 4,000/. ; Board of Cus-
toms, 8,0001. ; Board of Inland Revenue, 17,0001. ; Post-
office, 16,000/. ; Prisons and Convicts, 4,0001. The
' house would find that Mr. M'Culloch had in his report
fully explained the case of the increase in the estimates
for stationery for this year. That increase was mainly
owing to the war with Ruseia • but, independently of that
cause, a vast amount of printed forms, mrps, &c., had to
be supplied to those military and naval schools which
had been recently opened, and the libraries opened in
barracks, gaols, &e., also helped to increase the expendi-
ture for stationery, printing, &c. Mr. M'Culloch very
wisely suggested that the books and stationery supplied
to public schools and other establishments were of a too
costly description. and that if they were of an inferior
quality they would answer their pnrpose quite as well.
He (Hr. WilsOn) gladly availed himself of that oppor-
tunity to testify that there was not in the public service
any one who was more anxious to promote the public
interest than Mr. M'Culloch. (Hear.) The next head of
increase was that of prisons and convict establishments,
and the amount of the increase was 114,907/. That was
a subject which recent discussions in that house rendered
peculiarly interesting. The particulars of that increase
would indicate to hon. members the steps which had been
taken by the Government since 1852. The following was
a tabular comparison under this head between the
charges in 1852 and 1856 :

152. 1856.
Inspection and general superintendence £l6,8 196 £16,783
Government prisoners at home and aproad 275,921 415,908
Maintenance of prisoners ... ••• ... 159,123 161,595
Expenses of transportation .. ... 101,041 25,485
Convict establishments in colonies ... 253,586 286,605

467 2374
The house would no doubt be surprised279l at, the vast ex-
penses for convict establishments -in the colonies, after
the abandonment of the transportation system some three
or four years ago ; but it ought to be borne in mind that,
although they had ceased to send convicts to the colonies,
there was yet a very large number of convicts there whose
sentences must expire before they could be set at liberty.
For some considerable time, therefore, an establishment
as vast almost as that which was in existence when the
transportation system was abolished would have to be
maintained. But that was not all; for, about two years
ago, in consequence of the increased cost of living in Aus-
tralia; the salaries of the officers who superintended the
convicts had to be increased, and the maintenance of the
convicts had also become more expensive. This country,
therefore, had at the present moment to bear the expense
of two systems for the punishment of convicts, and it
would be some time before one of them—viz., the trans-
portation system—ceased to be a charge upon the country.
The number of prisoners in England and 'lreland during
the year 1852 was 12,172 ; in 1856 it was 12,769, being
an increase of 597 ; so that no-withstanding the ces-
sation of transportation for the last few years, the
crease of prisoners in the home prisons was only 597,
which was rather surprising when one thought of the great
outcry which was made a few months ago about the alarm
ing increase of crime in England. lion. members were
aware of the improvement which had taken place within
the last few years in the management of the home prisons.
That improvement especially marked the prisons in Ireland,
and it was clue in great measure to the visit of the right
hon. baronet the member for Carlisle to the convict estab-
lishment at Spike Island when he was First Lord of the
Admiralty. In England • there had been built since 1832
prisons at Brixton, Chatham, and Fulham, and in Ireland
at Cork and Pbillipstown, the annual expenditure of which
was *80,9171., so that it appeared that more than the whole
increase was attribstable to prisons erected since the year
in questiOn, and not to any increased expenditure con-
nected with prisons existing at that time. The next in-
crease to. which he would refer was that in respect to:public
buildings, amounting to 81,030/. Upon palaces in the
occupation of her Majesty the increase was only about
3,000/. ; upon those partly occupied by her Majesty the
increase was very trifling; and upon palaces not so occu-
pied at all the difference was also insignificant. The great
increase arose under the head of 'buildings for the public
departments placed under the charge of the Board of
Works. In England thejcharge for public buildings had
increased by 68,517/. ; ii Scotland by 12,5001. In the first
instance, this increase included the rent of offices hired on
the part of the public, which in 1852 was 8,8:321., and in
1856, 42,638/. ; the cost of furniture in 1852 being 23,6001.,
and in 18:6, 34,9721 This increase had arisen in a great
measure from the consolidation of the War Departments,
and from the great number of public offices now hired for
temp Tarp purposes, such as commissions. The sums altoge-
ther amounted to somewhat more than the balance he had
to account for, but he had only tdren the principal items,
preferring not to weary the committee with the small changes
involving a decrease of expenditure which had taken
place. They arrived, therefore, at this comparison be-
te een 1852 and 1856:—The increase of which they bad
heard so much was 2,316,4961, :

Transferred from consolidated fund and gross
revenue
Education
Holyhead harbour
180,000
Printing and stationary
Prisons and convicts
114,000
Public buildings
... 81,600

£2,446,000
Unfortunately this was not all. There was a very large in-
crease in the estimates of the present year, and he should
now endeavour to show how that increase arose
Increase. Decrease.

Class I.

24,882

HI.
IV.
V.
VI. ...
Showing a net increase of nearly 600,000/. in the estimates
of the present year as compared with 1156. To these items
he would now call attention. In the first place he found
that education figured for a large proportion of the increase.
The vote for education this year in excess of that for 1856
amounted for England to 90,090/. ; for science and art the
increase was 9,3101. ; the National Gallery, 5,526/. ; the
British Museum, 34,000/. In respect to the National Gal-
lery, he might say in passing that the increase which ha I
taken place was occasioned by the splendid bequest of the
late Mr. Turner, and he thought that no member of this
house would begrudge the 5,000/, spent in providing for
the magnificent selection of pictures so given to the na-
tion. (Hear, hear.) Here therefore was an increase of
138,726/. attributable to he items of education, science,
and art. Then hon. members would bear in mind that
last year a bill was passed by what a portion, not ex-
ceeding one-fourth, of the police-rates of counties and
boroughs was pail out of the consolidated fund. An
attempt was made to induce his right hon. friend (Sir G.
Grey) to consent to a larger expenditure on this head, and
it was not the fault of the House of Commons that such an
expenditure did not take place. (Hear, hear.) As it was,
the charge for police under the Act of last year amounted
to 145,930/. Then, another bill was passed respecting
County Courts, upon which there was a strong combination
which the Government found themselves wholly unable to
resist. They proposed what they believed to be a fair and
liberal remuneration to the registrars, but the house doub-
led the amount they proposed by a majority of nearly two
to one. He thought, therefore, that the Government were
at all events not responsible for this very large increase of
expenditure—(hear)—an expenditure which this year
amounted to less than 195,2121 , though it would be some-
thing less in future years. Then, again, bon. members con-
sented to a heavy charge upon the consolidated fund in re-
spect to the salaries of the judges, in which perhaps they
exercised a wise discretion, instead of making those sala-
ries a matter of annual discussion in Parliament. Again,
however, the Government had a very narrow escape, a de-
mand which had nearly been successful being made that
the salaries of the county court judges should be increased
by 20,0301. a year. Under the bill to which he alluded the
total cost to the country would be, at the very le ust,
231.000/. a year, thus made up :—There would be an an-
nual charge upon the votes of 114,320/. ; the salaries charg-
ed upon the consolidated fund would be 76,900/. ; the cona-
pensation given to judges of local courts replaced by the
county courts, 10,0001. ; making altogether, 231,512/. Ano-
ther point upon which the Government were foiled by the
house bad reference to the fees charged in these courts. It was
argued that justice should bo made as cheap as possible to
the poor man. But he thought, judging from what bad
happened, it would be found that, instead of making j ustice
cheap to the poor man, Parliament had encouraged an
amount of litigation which would compel it in a very short
time to reconsider its decision. In most cases he believed,
particularly ie the manufacturing and mining districts pos-
sessing a large population, the business of these courts had
increased by 50 par cent. Now, if that increase represented
legitimate attempts on the part of small traders to recover
their debts, it could not be objected to. But he was told
th a small traders and hawkers, who in populous places
went from door to door tempting door people to buy upon
credit, Were systematically making use of these courts for
the collection of their debts. They first induced people to
take credit, forcing their goods upon them, and as soon as
their customers got into debt to the extent of 20s. or 255.
they put them into the County Court, obtained judgment
for a fee of 91. or is., and then got the debts collected
trough an, officer of te caurt at the rate of, perhaps, ls.
per week. In many cases it was found that these haw-
kers trusted the same persons again, and the same process
took plane until the bailiffs of the court in these districts
were fast becoming mere collectors of these small traders.
He had dwelt upon these subjects at some length because
out of the total increase- of 591,6361. in 1857 as compared
with 1836 no less a stun than 311,192/. was entailed by the
t*o measures of which he had been speaking, passed in the
last session of Parliament. He wished to show the House
of Commons that it really lay with them, rather than with
the Government, to support measures of economy, and
that in some instances the Government had been striving
to enforce economy while the House had preferred some!

thing akin to extravagance. Then, in the present year
there was an increase of 24,519/. in prison and convict es-
tablishments; and in public buildings. also, there was an
increase o: 2,1,882/. Here, a_oin, was an increase attri-
butable to the House of Commons, and not to the Govern-
ment. Some years ago, a committee sat upon the Dublin
hospitals. Every one felt that to vote 16,0001. or 20,0001.
a-year to the Dublin hospitals, and nothing to the hospitals
of Edinburgh, London, or other large towns, was an abuse,
and the house determined that the vote should be reduced
by 1,0001. a year until it expired altogether. The vote
was in process of extinction, and had been brought down
in 1853 to 13,0001. when the hon. member for Dublin
gave notice of a motion for recurr;ng to the original
vote. He (Mr. Wilson) being then, as now, at the
Treasury opposed the motion, but he was beaten in a tole-
r thly full house, and the hon. member obtained the ap-
pointment of a committee. The committee was fairly com-
posed, and they recommended that the original vote of
16 0001. a year should be retained, and that it should be
made permanent ; so that there again the Government
was foiled by the House of Commons, and they had nothing
to do but to carry out the views of Parliament. The con-
sequence was that 19,0001. figured this year in-the esti-
mates for the Dublin hospitals. Then there was a further
additional charge of 12,0001. for the constabulary, and
some alteration in the Court of Chancery ; and thus up-
wards of 560,0001. out of the 593,666/. of increase was a:-
counted for. The remainder was composed of small sums,
but the increases which he had now complained were—
On education, science, and art, &c £90.020
Police for counties and boroughs
County Courts 195,212
Prisons ani convict establishments 21,513
Public buildings 24,8e2
Dublin hospitals 19,000
Court of Chancery and constabulary 12,000
The total increase from 18.52, including the estimates for
the present year, amounted to no less than 2,978,0001,—0r
nearly 3,000,0001. in five years upon the Civil Service Esti-
mates :

The amount transferred was
Education, &c 532,726 ,
Holyhead Harbour
Printing and stationery
Prisons an I con victs,law and justice.. ...... . 486,0 4
Public buildings
Of that amount 1,436,0001. represented charges transferred
from other branches, while 1,54:5,682/. represented altoge-
ther new charges or increases upon old charges. He had
now stated as clearly and distinctly as he could the grounds
upon which these respective increases rested, and he
thought that the committee would agree with him that the
causes lay in a verysmall compass. The questions.in which
the Government were particularly concerned were few in
number; they were matters peculiarly fitting for the con-
sideration and decision of Parliament; they were all ques-
tions of high policy and not of small Governmental details;
they were all questions mixed up with the interests, social
and commercial, of the country, and, therefore, they were
especially subjects which Parliament ought to deal with.
The committee would shortly be called upon to vote items
dmilar to those which he had been explaining. They would
then have an opportunity of discussing the principles upon
which the expenditure of the year was based, and of de-
ciding whether this large increase of expenditure for edu-
cation was to be allowed. His own impression was that
they would decide, not only that the vote now proposed
should be sanctioned, but that it should go on increasing
) Hear.) They would have the opportunity of considering
wh -ther they would go on expending the moderate sum of
200,0001. a-year—for, after all, it was a moderate sum for a
great country like this to expend—in the improvement of
harbours of refuge. (Hear.) He should propose next week
the appointment of a committee to consider this subject as
a whole question, and to devise some scheme for system-
atically improving our coasts, with a view both to safety
and commercial purposes, and to the improvement of the
fisheries on the coasts of Scotland and of Ireland. If the
house should agree to a policy of that description, it would
very probably be incumbent on Parliament to vote a con-
siderable sum of money annually for that purpose, in order
that they might proceed on some intelligible and system-
atic plan, instead of working piecemeal and without sys-
tem, while Irish members were crying out for votes for
Irish harbours, Scotch members for Scotch harbours, and
English members all round the coast for harbours for the
different places which they represented. (Hear.) They
wouldhave an opportunity also of considering whether they
would proceed with the improved mode of managing con-
victs, is hich had led to so great an increase of expenditure;
and, judging from the debates which had latch taken place,
he had no doubt that they would persevere in that source of
expenditure. (Hear, hear.) With regard to public build-
ings, they all knew that there were three or four which
were moat urgently required at this very moment ; we
wanted a new Foreign-office, a now Colonial-office, and a
War-office, and he thought that they would be unanimously
of opinion that those works had been too long delayed. It
would be seen, therefore, that all these increases of expen-
diture related to matters which were peculiarly for the
consideration of the House of Commons, and he did not see
how they could well escape the dilemma of spending even
more looney in that direction than they had hitherto done.
Having thus gone through the increased expenditure, for
which the house was more particularly responsible, he
would now refer briefly to the Government departments of
the country, where, if any prodigal spirit existed in the
Administration, there would be likely to be found some in-
crease of expenditure. The committee must be aware that
there had been a very large increase of business within the
last few years in all the public departments. There never
had been a period in the history of the country when there
had been so rapid a development of its trade, its inter-
course, and of everything which marked the material pro-
gress of a nation as had taken place in this country within
the last few years. If he took the exports and imports as
affording a broad and tolerably accurate indication of this
fact, he found that the exports had increased from
78,076,8541. in 1852 to 115,890,8571. in 1856; that theim-
ports had increased from 109,345,4091. in 1852 to
172,651,823/. in 1856, while shipping had increased in the
same proportion. (Hear, hear,) We had established steam
communication with all parts of the world, and we had now
a monthly steam communication with Australia, carrying
the mails in about 50 days between Sydney and London.
We had telegraphs established, or being established, con-
necting all parts of Europe, and arrangements were in pro-
gress for connecting the whole of our Mediterranean pos-
sessions with London by telegr .ph. The terms were being
arranged by which we should be enabled to communicate
almost with the rapidity of thought with Malta and
Corfu. The telegraph was being laid also between the
west coast of Ireland and Newfoundland, the service being
already complete between Newfoundland and North Ame-
rica, and being disseminated over the whole of the United-
States and Canada. (Hear.) All these matters had led to
an enormous increase of labour in the different Government
offices. Ho found that in the Board of Trade there were—
In 1852 papers received
In 18'6 (to Nov. 2 .)
In 1852, papers despatched 14,835
In 1856 (to Nov. 20)

showing an increase of work of 178 per cent. In the Fo
reign-office there were—

In 1852, papers received and sent 32,043
In 1856

showing an increase of
25,871
Arid beyond that large additional amount of correspondence
which the Foreign-office had to conduct, the introduction
of the telegraph system had added almost as much to the
labours of that _department, in communicating by that
means, as their correspondence in the shape of despatches
had been augmented. In the Treasury the increase hod
also been very large. Notwithstanding this large increase
of business, and notwithstanding th,re had been a revision
of these establishments, which led to an increase in the
salaries and incomes of the leading officers, who had in-
tellectual work to perform, there had been little or no in-
crease in the general amount expended for salaries, Taking
the Treasury, the Home-office, the Foreign-office, the Co-
lonial-office, the Council-effice, and Education Department,
the Beard of Trade, the Office for the Registry of Seamen,
the Office of Paymaster-General, the Office of the Con-
troller-General, the Office of Public Works, the Depart-
ments of Works and Woods, the State Paper-office, the
Poor-Law Boards for the United Kingdom, the Mint-effice,
the Office of Inspectors of Factories and Mines, the Office of
the C def Secretary for Ireland, the office of Public Works
for Ireland, and the office of the Paymaster of Civil Ser-
vices (Ireland), and one or two others, the whole of the
salaries in 1852 amounted to 332.8991., ant in 1857 to
332,9761., being an increase of only 771. But that was not '
all. The creation of a new department in the Board of
Trade, in order to carry out the Mercantile Marine Act,
had lei to an increased expenditure in that department
of 12,000/. There was also a new charge of 7,625/. for the
inspectors of mines, in pursuance of a bill passed by that
house. Deducting these two items, together about2o,ooo/.,
from the gross ausount of salaries, it would be seen that
there was an absolute reduction of 20,000/., as compared
with the salaries of 1832. The committee would therefore
see that while an enormous increase of expenditure had
taken place, it had arisen on items over which that house
had a direct control, and had, in almost every instance, ex-
pressed that opinion, and sometimes put a pressure upon
the Government ; while, with regard to that expenditure
which was peculiarly within the control of the Govern-
ment, where, if there was prodigality at all it would have
been shown, and notwithstanding the large increase of
business there was an absolute diminution in the aggregate
salaries of all these public offices of 20,000/., instead of any
increase. (Hear.) It was not for him to recommend any-
thing to the house more than any other hon. member; but
there was one particular point which his experience of the
Treasury induced him to recommend to the special atten-
tion of the house, if they wanted to study and promote
economy. Above all things, they ought to look with a
jealous eye upon every proposition, from whatever quarter
it might come, for removing local expenditure and placing
it on the consolidated fund. Meer, hear.) He believe

s ,
, I that there was nothing which had led to greater abuse—
, nothing which was more detrimental to anything like
economy and good public service than that course. The
great argument against a common poor-rate payable out of
the national revenue was, thatit would destroy all local con-
trol ; and the same argument was exactly applicable to
local charges placed on the consolidated fund. So long as
these charges were local, everybody was interested in see-
ing them reduced to the lowest amount. The instant they
were placed on the consolidated fund everybody was try-
ing to get the largest share of a vote. (Hear, hear.) In
1835,parliament consented to take upon itself the charge
of
one-half the cost of prosecutions throughout the coun-
try. So long as they only paid one-half no groat harm
occurred; the counties having to pay the other half, the
country had the wholesecurity of their vigilance in watch-
ing the expenditure for that purpose. Unfortunately in
1816 the house consented to take upon the public expen-
diture the other half. The object might be good, but the
consequences had been most prejudicial ; for, the localities
having uo longer any motive for vigilance, the sum had
increased until at last the revenue was saddled with a
quarter of a million a....'yetir as the cost of prosecutions. To
such an extent had this gone that the Government bad
been obliged, iu the last three or four years, to send round
Treasury of for the purpose of checking that expen-
diture, and they had succeeded in reducing it very con-
siderably. In Scotland alone, out of 30,0i0/., 5,0001. or
6,005. had been struck off; and in the total quarter of a
million the saving was in about the same propel tion. Still,
after all, the control thus exercised was very imperfect.
Without saying that the county magistrates wished to
swell these expenses, he must observe that they were not
so vigilant as when the charge was paid out of the county
rates ; and he mentioned it as an illustration of the evil
and danger of consenting to any removal of these charges
from local to the general funds. (Hear, hear.) He would
conclude by placing in the hands of the chairman the
first vote :
13e,1461. to complete the sum necessary to defray the
expenses of royal palaces and public buildings.
Sir J. PAKINGTOM said the course the honourable
gentleman had taken of making his statement' after the
Speaker had left the chair was a very inconvenient one.
It was a bad precedent to establish, because-of course if a
member of the Government could enter on such a statement
at such a time, any member of the house might do the same
thing, and thereby great inconvenience might:be 'the result.
The hon. gentleman had alluded to the right boil gentleman
the member for Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) as living:been the

person who had brought the expenditure of the country un-
der the annual consideration of Parliament, but he (Sir John
Pakingtou) must remind the hon. gentleman that the right
Lou. gentleman the member fer Buekingliainshiie (Mr Dis-
raeli) had previorisly announced his in.eution of taking ti
same s ep. He (Sir J. Pakiugton) must express the satisfic-
tion he felt at the statement which had been made by t o
hon. gentleman. It was clear and satisfactory. The inere +se
in the expenditure had no doubt been caused by the changes
in the times, and the improved position of the country. He
highly approved of the measure of last year for the ,mpzove-
*it of the cortnty lohce. That had caused as in reased ex-
pense, but it had been a most judicious expenditure. With
regard to the expenditure for education, he should be glad to
see that expenditure increase year by year, provided we re-
ceived a fall equivalent for the money so spent. He did not
believe that. at present we did receive that equivalent.
Mr. BRIS OE said the remarks of the Secretary for the
Treasury had applied to the expenditure of the last five years
but he had said nothing about the expenditure for this Year
of 1857. It had been said in another place that the House of
Commons had abdicated its functions as guardians of the
übl ic purse. He for one protested against th .t imputation,
and would do all he could to show how unfounded it was. He
wished to know why a charge of 21s, had been made on the
inhabitants of Hampton Court for keys to enter the park
with ?
Mr. W. EWART thought the public ought to have free ac-
cess to that park.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS contended that the course pursued by
Mr. Wilson had led to great inconvenience. He had gone
into a general review of the expenditure for the civil service;
and he (Mr. Williams) contended that they were very extra-
vagant
Mr. AYRTON thought the country was much indebted to
the late Mr. Hume for urging the transfer of the charges for-
merly paid out of the consolidated fund to the•estimates ; and
to the right hon. member for Bucks (Hr. Disraeli) was due
the credit of being the first Chancellor of the Exchequer who
adopted that suggestion.
Col. SYKES had no means of judging whether the sums
asked for in these votes were necessary or not. Hero was
6,218/. demanded for Hampton Court Palace and grounds ;
7,9601. for the Whitehall buildings, including the Treasury
and the residence of the First Lord; and 4,901/. for furnitu e
for the officer of the War Secretary, without any explanation
being given. The estimates ought to be referred to a commit-
tee beforehand. to examine them and say how far they were
necessary.
Mr. EWART concurred with Mr. Wilson that the principle
of local government should be as far as po sible carried out
in regard to the police and the criminal jurisdicti n generally.
He would also extend hat principle to natio,al education, for
he believed they would never have a satisfactory system of
national education until it was established on the popular
principle, paid by the people and managed by the, people.
Mr. STAFFORD never remembered any Parliament in
which the army and navy estimates had been voted so easily.
Remembering the pledges many hon. gentlemen had so re-
cently given at the hustings, he confessed himself surprised
that so little attention had been paid to the great question of
retrenchment in the public expenditure, and remarked that
apathy and indifference of bon, members in this respect ope-
rated as an inducement, an encouragement, and even a sti-
mulus to extravagance on the part of the Government
Viscount PALMERSTON came to quite a different con-
clusion from that which the hon. gentleman had drawn from
the course the house had pursued in regard to the military
and naval estimates. The hon. gentleman inferred that be-
cause no great objections were offered to those estimates,
hon. members had forgotten the pledges they gave at the
hustings to enforce economy, and bad shown a blameable
want of industry in not making themselves masters of the de-
tails of the several votes. He (Lord Palmerston) must beg
leave to draw an exactly opposite conclusion from that fact.
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He inferred, and was justified in
inferring, that if there had been no prolonged discussions on
the army and navy estimates, it arose from this plain and
simple fact—that hon. members having paid attention to
these details—having exercised great industry—(laughter)—
in making themselves masters of them, and in comparing the
estimates now presented with those which were presented
during the war were struck with surprise—as he knew many
were—(loud laughter)—that the Government hal been en-
abled in so short a space of time, to make such great reduc-
tions in regard both td the army and navy. Theref re he
took it as a tribute of praise to the care and atteution which
the• Government had bestowed on the economical ari auge-
meat of these branches of the public service that the esti-
mates h d met with the general acquiescence of the house.
(Renewed laughter.) And speiking now seriously on the sub-
ject, that they were satisfied that those who were the mos
competent judges and had bestowed attention to the subject,
the Government had done as much as they possibly could do
in the course of the year that had elapsed since the war in
reducing the charges of the public service. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said no dOubt the Secretary of the Treasury
could take what course he pleased, but he did not see that
there was any analogy between the cases mentioned by the
noble lord, for the army and navy estimates consisted gene-'
rally of one subject only,' while the civil service estimates con-
sisted of a vast variety of subjects, 'embracing consular esta-
blishments abroad, the queen's Palaces at home, ponds in
the Green-park, and a multitude of topics. He should be
very sorry to sea the estimates referred to a committee, be-
cause he knew the result would be to increase the expenses
50 per cent.
Sir J. SHELLEY wished to inquire in reference to the
buildings in Hampton Court appropriated to the stud. He
did not think it was right to call upon the country to main-
tain that establishment ? •
Sir B. HALL said the sum voted last year for the royal
palaces was 41,862/., and this year it was 39,690/. As to the
Hampton Court Palace expenses alluded to by the hon. mem-•
ber for Westminster (Sir J. Shelley), none of the items
charged had any refe once to the rasing stock, but was en-
tirely for the stud of her Majesty's use. In answer to the
question of the gallant colonel (Colonel Sykes), who said that
4,901/. had been granted for furniture for the Secretary of
War, he had to say that that amount was the sum granted
last year. As to the 6,218/. • for Hampton Court Palace,
there had certainly been an increase of 783/., arising from the
employment of police instead of sentries, and from the repairs
of the chapels.- It was never intended that a charge was to
be made for admission•to the Hampton-einirt gardens, and all
that was intended was, that if gentlemen wished to have keys
to pass through the private park, they might have them on
payment of 20s. a-year. •
Mr WILSON said that the increase in the expenditure on
public buildings in 1856, as compared with 1852, was 21,0101.;
the chi f items being not far palaces but for public buildings
and public offices in England, and the erection of a building
in Edinburgh for the Scotch Poor-law Board.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that if any knowledge could have been
acquired on the subject of the navy estimates it ought to have
been obtained by the..bon. member for Northamptonshire
(Mr. Stafford), who had taunted other members with igno
ranee' and want of industry. But he had not acquired any
knowledge on the subject. He had designated the navy esti-
mates as extravagant, but there should not have been anyone
(the hon. member having been in office) who was more com-
petent to put his finger upon any defects that existed. He
ought to be thb last man to sneer and then to propose no re-
form.
He and the Secretary for the Treasury were not unlike
two cocks on a dunghill, and might very appropriately have
been pitted against each other on the floor of the house.
(Laughter.) The hon. and learned gentleman proceeded to
discuss the propriety of the course which had been adopted
by the Secretary of the Treasury in making his statement in
committee instead of with the Speaker in the chair, coming
to the conclusion that the course adopted was an erroneous
one.

Mr. STAFFORD said that while in office he had learned
more things than the navy estimates, one of which was to
take in good temper the bitterest attacks that could be made
upon him. It was true that ho had offered no opposition to
her Majesty's Government on the navy estimates, but then it
must be remembered that on the hust ngs he had made no
professions of retrenchment and reform, for he belonged to
that class of country members who were generally supposed
to be in favour of prodigal establishments. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.)
After some remarks from Mr. MOW BRAY,
Mr. WILSON said that the sum of 140,0001. was for tho
purchase of Burlington House, originally intended for Govern-
ment offices, bat the idea bad been abandoned, and instead
it was applied to the locating of the learned societies that
were obliged to leave Somerset House, in consequence of the
increase of business there, arising from the succession and
other new duties.- ' Time sum of 4,705/., also charged to Bur-
lington-house, was for repairs and alterations necessary for
giving the required accommodation to the above societies.
After some observations from Colonel P. HERBERT and Mr.
Colonel SYKES pressed for an answer from the right hon.
baronet the Chief Commissioner of Works to the question he
had put to him. (Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL said with reference to the comparison of the
expenses of royal palaces in 1852 and 1857, and said that .in
1852 the sum was 45,427/., and in 1857 39,693/. being a diffe-
rence of between 2,0001. and 3,0001. The next question,
with reference to 7,9501., was for public offices, and showed a
diminution from that of last year of 2,000/. ; and the third
question was by whose authority 11. or a guinea was charged
to persons for the privilege of walking through Hampton
Court-park. The right hon. baronet said that as the park,
being private property, and the roadway only used for the
convenience of the neighbourhood, the Government had
thought it right to compel persons requiring keys to pay
for them, the same as was done with reference to other royal
parks and gardens.
Mr. W. E\VART called attention to the desirability of the
Government labelling the paintings of works of art and curi-
osity at Hampton Court Palace, the SAM 4 as that adopted at
the National Gallery and British Museum, &c.
Sir B HALL said it was his intention to do so after the
articles had been re-classified. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS proposed that the charges for royal
palaces and public buildings should be reduced one-half, viz.,
to 17,854/., which would reduce the gross amount to be
Toted to 118,312/.

A lengthened discussion took place relative to the effect of
the amendment if carried. Hon. members not belonging to
the Government contending that if it wore carried they
would be prevented from reducing the sum again if it should
be thought expedient. (Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK then put the question. is the chairman
whether, if the committee reduced this vote by 4,5001. it
was competent for the committee to still further reduce it.
(Hear, hear.)
Thy CHAIRMAN said it was not. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in
such cases it was the practice to propose the reduction of
the larger sum first till they arrived at the lowest sum.
Mr. RICARDO said that the difficulty arose from the
fact that they had put together several items to get at a
single vote. After the decision which the chairman had
given, the only way was to move that he report progress
and ask leave to sit again, so that the estimates might be
amended.

Lord PALMERSTON said that the difficulty was none at
all. It was necessary that the estimates should be given in
detail, but the votes cannot be taken in detail. Any hon.
member objecting to any item moved that the vote be !e-
-duced by that sum, which was well understood to mean that
that item was negatived. All knew what wis meant.

Sir D. NORREYS recommended the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to take the opini,n of the house on the single
item.

Mr. WILSON referred to what occurred last year when
that hon. member wanted to reduce the estimates by so many

sums, The amendment for the smaller reduction was put
first, and if that was carried, the motion was made that the
estimates shuuld be still furth r reduced. This happened
several times every year, and the chairman pw. the smal est
sum to which the vote was reduced for the appr val of the
house. No good could arie from leporting progress. They
could not propose 70 or 80 votes on this single statement.
Mr. HENLEY thought the statement open to objection.
Mr. FITZROY said, supposing the reductions proposed by
different persons—of 20,0001., 10,0001., and 5,0001.; the
course would be to put the r. uction of 5,0001., then that of
10,0001., then that of 20,0001.
Colonel SYKES said that it was impossible to arrive at a
conclusion under the-present rules. He objected to five items,
yet, if one of his objections was negatived, it would he im.
possible to move another, whatever his objections might be.
Mr. DISRAELI said that if one motion f r reduction were
decided against the hon. 'member, he could still-rusk" another
motion. He did not think the form of the haise was 'much
to blame. During 'al,icr experience he had inever known the
aimis as true that to-night; the intiner of
items was;i:dush inv./red ; and conreqiela 4 that

further analysis-a the vote_sho.uld_be. madsand the hone.
'should come to a decision on a large numEPevotcs. Tt ins
a necessary consequence of imparting to the house so muc,lci
information. The best course the Government could do won
be to accede to the motion, and reconstruct the estimates;
He saw no other way out of the difficulty. Their form ilau,
been founded on experience, and had been recently submitted
to Vie consideration of experienced men, and they should net,
in the first difficulty, throw over forms which had, as it were,
been embalmed for centuries.
Sir B. HALL proposed to withdraw the vote, and go on to
the next land at the end bring up the same vote in three
divisions.
The motion for reporting progress of the first amendment
to the vote was withdrawn. The original motion was °e
withdrawn. -
The next vote was for 75,781/. for putting the parks And
royal gardens in order. -
Mr. DILLWYN moved that the vote be reduced bt
8,0691., all the sum set down for Battersea Park.
Sir B. HALL said that, when the house voted 'these esti.
mates last year, be was urged to complete Battersea-Perk
and they had their permission to open the park in Aligns",
-
this year, and he was happy to say that the park was open,
and their vote was for the completion of the public works.
Sir J. TROLLO PE said that the right hon. baronet be!
promised, during the late discussion, to withdraw the o`,f
of 11,600/. to St. James's-park, and yet this was included too
the present estimate.
Sir B. HALL said that he now proposed to reduce the
v,te by the sum of 11,600/, which was proposed for tn°
same park.
Sir F. BARING objected to the confusion which vg:
produced in the votes for the parks by mixing 11.13
expenditure of past years with the present.
toed,
Mr. BENTINCK said that he (lid not quite unties
if the right honourable baronet intended to withdraw tija
vote for 11,600/. for St. James's Park. If so, he ebVto
. reduce 303/. further for filling the pond. He begieu
move an amendment to that effect. cell
Mr. BLACKBURN said that they had got into 0 a
confusion that they could go on no further. He 111°1e
that the chairman report progress.
Sir 1). NORREYS thought that they should decide the,
question respecting Battersea Park in the first instance,6
the point was first raised.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, under ttli:
circumstances, said he was prepared to accede to b
motion.
The house then resumed.

THE OATH BILL.
Sir F. TFIESIGER aske I the noble lord when be
tended to introduce the Oath Bill ?
Lord PALMERSTON—The first thing on Mondel:fre.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACT AMENDM
This bill was read a third time and passed.

SOUND DUES.
On the motion fer going into committee on this bill,
.a
Mr. W. WILLIAMS rose to move that it be cornroi",
that day six mouths. He had calculated that these due
amounted to about 11/. 10s. on the average on each 011,5
from the Baltic. How then could the consumer Zi
articles from the Baltic, as had been alleged,' be bene67,
by the remission of these dues. The whole benefit svOuso
go into the packets of the traders to the Baltic. Aof
concluded by moving that the bill be committed that
six months. et'
Mr. WHITE seconded the motion. The Baltic In 130
chants ought nut to have this concession at the 8%10
of the Britibh public.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
no new argument had been submitted in oppositionhbe
this measure. The object of the bill was to carry nut 'of
treaty which had been entered into yi t h the Ningi,
Denmark in conjunction with France, Russia, Aust.'
and other poivers. • tbe
Mr. WYLD hoped that provision had been made I° the
treaty requiring the Danish Government to keep TIP

lighthouses in the Bal ic. a
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said
was very fu:!1 provision.
aweacV

After a few words from Mr. AYRTON, the
ment was n3gatived without a division, and the
_A
passed through committee, and was ordered to be re!"
third time on Monday.
The other orders were disposed of, and the house
journed at twenty minutes to one.