The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-26 00:00:00

THE SUN,n LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 26, 1861:

The report of supply was brought up and received.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
General PEEL drew attention to the estimates for mili-
tary expenditure, which, he contended, did not really con-
tain the amount that would be required. He did not com-
plain so much of the military expenditure which the
Government had made last year, but he did strongly object
to provision being made for the same by the votes of the
house, and the amount that was necessary having been con-
cealed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He considered
at the same time that retrenchments ought to be judiciously
made, without impairing the efficiency of the provision for
the defence of the country. The hon. and gallant member then
entered into different details to illustrate his opinion. He com-
plained that these army estimates were not made until
fifteen months after the financial year. On five votes for
1859-60-61 there would be found an excess of expenditure
over estimates of nearly a quarter of a million.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail that
the term for making up the army accounts was fixed by law,
and the delay that might take place was not chargeable to
any person. From the time when the accounts were made
up the estimates were necessarily founded on insufficient
data. He denied that the Treasury had any perfect control
over the number of men that were to be employed, and
they were not necessarily cognisant of the increase in the
number of men, nor the amount provided for by Parlia-
ment. He adverted to India to show how impossible it
would have been for the Secretary of War or the Chan-
ce llor of the Exchequer to have made a correct estimate of
the number of the men that were required, in consequence
of the events that had occurred in that country. He con-
tended that it was quite impossible that the Government
to
ye: foresee the claims that might arise in any prospective
If there were anything defective in the existing
sYstera it could
house, but not be remedied by a discussion in that
by. minute investigation of details, which
could not pose
house. The
rit'l4 be carried on at a sitting of the whole
fend the expenuytt. hon. gentleman then proceeded to de.
China. As ret:lre that had been incurred in respect to
arising from savincole4inthe appropriation of the surplus
y ofeethrtain military to other votes, it
was the absolute du te Secretary of the Treasury to
make a transfer of th ese surplusesi before asking for a vote
of credit. With respect t,
Zrleleged.misappropriation of
the funds voted for China if'
anything wrong in
respect to that vote, he.showd'q thavas responsibilityhe was with
the War Department. Ho co, asidered,
cluestiownervaeir, that no
?benefit would arise from the gem vat
gallant member being discussed act so late •ed by the
a Paned of the
:Session.
Mr. T. G. BARING defended' tl te conduct of Lordlier-
bort, and said there was no into' •ro ctnesa in the statement
)0 March, 1860, refer.
made 4 that noble lord on the E.

ence to the Chinavote. He held that of the excess of £200,000
in the China vote, which he should have to ask the house
for in committee, there was a sum of £120,000 which Lord
Herbert could have had no knowledge of when he made his
statement in March, 1860. The right hon. gentleman said
there would be an excess of £500,000, but, in fact, the sum
he had mentioned was the true one, and he held there was
no possible question that the calculation of Lord Herbert
was in the main entirely correct, and that the right hon.
gentleman's calculations were wrong. They had no right
to take the five votes referred to by the right hon. gentle-
man, but the whole of the votes for the army, and the at-
tack made upon Lord Herbert would, after referring to the
statements made by him last year, be found to be without
foundation. There had been no concealment of any accounts
from the house, but he regretted if the returns made to the
house were not in accordance with the views of the right
hon. and gallant gentleman. Without going into details as
to the number of men required for the army this year, he
was convinced that the 1,500 men in excess of the estimates
would soon be absorbed, there being no recruiting for the
line this year. On the whole, therefore, he believed the
sums voted by the house would cover all the expenditure of
the army during the present financial year.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that during the financial
year 1859.60 the house voted 122,655 men for the army,
and in the course of that year a much larger number was
kept, and yet no application was made to the house for the
pay and allowances of the extra men. Did the house intend
to give up their right to control the standing army of the
country ? Was it true that in March, 1860, there were
more than 9,000 men kept than voted by the house ? He
trusted the house would have a clear answer, because very
important constitutional questions were involved.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the time was inconvenient
for going into these accounts in detail, as they would all
come before the Committee on Public Accounts in the next
session of Parliament, when they would be fully gone into.
But he thought that upon the whole the calculations of his
right hon. friend the member for Huntingdon (Gen. Peel),
in March, 1860, were more correct than the statement of
Lord Herbert. What they complained of was that the Go-
vernment did not state to thehouse the grounds upon which
they required the vote of credit in 1860. They should re-
member that the army estimates of last year were dealt with
lin a peculiar manner by the Secretary for War, and such as
to puzzle those who took an interest in them, and desired to
make calculations in regard tJ them. It was the duty of
the House of Commons to criticise the mistakes of the Go-
vernment, and to visit them with a want of confidence un-
less they could be satisfactorily explained. (Hear.)
Sir J. SHELLEY thought the house ought to feel
obliged to the right hon. gentleman the member for Hun-
tingdon in bringing this matter forward, for it was clear
that these accounts ought to be examined into in detail. It
was not the first time that such accounts had been mystified,
and if a committee were moved for he should give the mo-
tion his support.
Mr. HENLEY thought the house agreed in tendering
thanks to the right hon. gentleman for bringing the subject
forward, and he could not help observing that the replies
of the Government were not so satisfactory as might be de-
sired. (Hear, hear.) He objected to the statements made
to the house by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there
could be no doubt that if he had had to propose the imposi-
tion of a tax instead of taking one off his powers of vision
would have been exercised in a very different manner.
(Hear, hear.) The substance of the right hon, gentleman's
observations to-day was, that he could not pretend to go
into these details, as they belonged to the heads of the de-
partments. The only certain thing about the matter was,
that they were called upon to vote this large sum in excess
of the expenditure of the year.
Colonel DUNNE wanted to know why a sum of money
was asked of the house for recruiting when it had been
stopped; and he should be glad to know why the larger
number of men in the army than voted by the house ware
being paid, and out of what fund.
Col. SYKES said there were 80,000 European troops in
India, and of these there were 19,000 in excess of the pro-
posed number. Why then should the Government send
out 3,000 men for the artillery in India, when they could
have obtained volunteers from the 19,000 men not required
in the line in India ?
Mr. HOPE said he would detain the house for a short
time only, while he asked the Government not to expend
the sum of £15,000 voted for increasing the Royal Military
College at Sandurst to hold 500 cadets until the house had
had time to consider the details of the plan, in pursuance
of which it was proposed to make such increase. The con-
duct of the Government had been most extraordinary in re.
spect to this vote, and it certainly appeared to him that good
faith had not been kept by the hon. gentleman the Under
Secretary for War. He believed opinions were unanimous
against the system of passing all officers into the army
through one college, and in fact at college young men were
not so well instructed, however able the professors, as they
were in the performance of regimental duties. Every young
man would have to enter the college at 17, and by the rules
of the army he must enter the army between the
ages of 18 and 20. He thought it unwise at this moment to
limit the sources from which they obtained their officers, and
the rules now in force would have that effect. Ho begged
to move the address of which he had given notice in refer-
ence to this subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to order. He thought it was not
competent now, on going into committee of supply, to make
such a motion.
The SPEAKER said he had not thought it right to inter-
fere during the time the hon. gentleman was speaking ; but
as the matter had been noticed, he should rule that the mo-
tion could not be made. The vote had been confirmed by
the house, and it could not be restricted in any way.
Mr. HOPE said if he was out of order he would withdraw
his motion.
Mr. B. OSBORN E thought the hon. gentleman opposite
was deserving the thanks of the house for calling attention
to this subject. The Government were about to totally
change the education of cadets for the army without having
any plan before them, without the house knowing anything
of the matter, and in the absence of the Prime Minister and
the Secretary for War.
In reply to Mr. HENLEY,
The SPEAKER said any votes objected to must be con-
sidered in committee, and not upon going into committee.
Mr. DILLWYN thought, if the house was prevented
from discussing this matter now, they ought not in future
to allow votes to be taken at so late an hour as half-past 1
in the morning.
Mr. BARING explained that the vote in reference to this
college was not taken at half-past 1 o'clock.
Mr. AYRTON moved the adjournment of the debate, in
order that the Under-Secretary of State for War might give
further explanation to the house.
Colonel KNOX complained of the conduct of the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Baring) in the course he had taken in refe-
rence to this vote. They were going to Germanise the Bri-
tish army, and he hoped the Government would take steps
that the question should be brought before the house on a
future day.
The SPEAKER said the house could not take into ac-
count the majority by which a vote was carried and the
lateness of the hour, but he did not desire to stop discussion
on any vote.
Mr. T. G. BARING denied there had been any breach
of faith on the subject on his part. The hon. member who
opposed the vote did not accept his proposition, and there-
fore he was not bound by it. He would agree that the new
system at Sandhurst should not be brought into operation
before Midsummer next.
Mr. HOPE—Would the hon. gentleman state that the
money should not be expended ?
Mr. HENLEY observed that the vote should be struck
out of the Appropriation Bill, and he would suggest to the
hon. member for Windsor to be in his place. (Laughter.)
The house then went into a committee of supply—Mr.
MASSEY in the chair.
On the vote of £75,000 to defray the charges required for
civil contingencies,
Mr. WILLIAMS said he objected to the sum of £l5O
required for carrying the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland from
Holyhead to Kingstown; and also to the sum of £512 16s.
for the expenses of the patent in granting a barony to Lord
Brougham's heir, formerly a Master in Chancery.
onSei,ralndsaifitt
GRAHAM
houseA
nMsaeigdrtehedis
tvoottehegerneeeormre
allyensvdaastiaopneoculf
the
Select Committee on Public Moneys, no sum would be
asked for in future without isinuthefirst place the house hav-
ing an opportunity
of discussing the
matter. He regretted
to see several items which were in the v g
for civil contm-

g e
CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUERi
cred
was
in
.
The n ci e s
think the matter was asatisfactory position;
and h
glad the committee upstairs had objected to this Note, for it
was A matter on which Government required the assistance
of the house, in order that a reform might be effected.
After further discussion,
Mr. DISRAELI said in his opinion any member might
discuss every item of the vote which they were caned upon

to consider.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said, as one of the committee,
he understood that that was their intentionin the report
which they made to the house.
Sir J. GRAHAM suggested that the hon. member for
Lambeth should withdraw his motion and let the committee
discuss the whole of the items which composed this vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS consented to withdraw his motion.
Mr. B. OSBORNE then moved to reduce the vote by
£1,500. There were several items to which he had very
great objection, particularly those in reference to the ex-
penses incurred for colonial bishops, and for the commission
of the fine arts in connection with that building. For that
commission a sumofL96B 4s. 85. was asked, but he thought
they would be dear at the odd 4s. Bd. (Laughter.) The
hon. member was proceeding with his speech, and quoting
the inscription " Si monumentum requiris -" when he
was, amidst great laughter, called to order, ten minutes to
four having arrived, the time at which, by the rules of the
house, the chairman must report progress.
The house resumed.
Mr. HENLEY asked what business would be taken by
the Government in the evening ?
. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his
right hon. friend would, at six o'clock, make a statement in
reference to the East India Loan, and after that was dis-
posed of he would propose to go into a committee of supply.
Mr. OSBORNE asked when he would have an opportu-
, laity of finishing his quotation with " circumspice."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the

hon. member was in a more fortunate position than Mr.
Adam, who was stopped in the middle of a word. The
hon. member would be able to resume at " eircumspice"
in
the evening, after the conclusion of the India business.
The sitting was then at four o'clock suspended.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
ADMIRALTY IRON.
Mr. HENNESSY asked the junior Lord of the Admiralty
whether the iron alluded to by him, on the 21st of June
last, respecting the steamship Hibernia, was the same as
the iron-cased ship Defence was being constructed of, and
which was manufactured for Messrs. Palmer by Messrs.
Beale and Co., of Rotherham, as shown in Parliamentary
Paper No. 347 of the present session.
Mr. WHITBREAD said it was the same, having been
tested and found to be the best suited for the purpose. He
could not answer the latter part of the question.
TROOPS IN CHINA.
Col. SYKES asked the Under Secretary of State for War
whether troops ordered home from North China had been
detained by the British Minister; if so, for what time were
they to be detained; and whether the troops at Tien-tsin
were supplied with fresh water by Coolie labour ?
Mr. BARING said that one regiment, and one troop of
Fane's Horse had been left at Tien-tsin. He could not say
in what way the troops were supplied with fresh water.
INDIAN BUDGET.
Mr. ADAM asked the Secretary of State for India when
the return with reference to stipendiary native princes of
India, 'for which an address was moved as unopposed on the
2d of May last, would be laid upon the table of the house ?
Also whether Mr. Laing's speech on the finances of India
would be laid on the table ?
Sir C. WOOD could not say when the address would be
laid on the table. Mr, Laing's speech, being an offici&
document, could not be furnished.
THAMES EMBANKMENT.

SirJ. SHELLEY asked the First Commissioner of Works
whether the report that the royal commission on the Thames
embankment having been signed, it was his intention to place
that report forthwith on the table of the house, with the
protest of any commissioners against the same ?
Mr. COWPER said that the report had been received at
the Office of Works, and would be laid on the table that
evening. No doubt the ordinary course would be followed,
and the commissioners would append to the report the rea-
sons givpn by one member for not agreeing to that report.
COURTS OF LAW BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM wished to know what were the inten •
tions of Government with respect to the above bill ?
Mr. COWPER said that so great was the desire on the
part of the legal profession, to have this bill passed that he
should be most unwilling to abandon it. He would not,
however, bring it on when there was not opportunity for
ample discussion. He should not attempt to bring it on after
eleven o'clock that evening, but even if he should not have
the opportunity of bringing it forward then, he still clung
to the hope that the session might last long enough—(a
laugh)—to allow of its being passed.
THE NAWAB OF THE CARNATIC.
Mr. LAYARD made an appeal to the Minister for India
on behalf of Hussein Dhar, hereditary Nawab of the Car-
natic, who had been deprived of his estates. The Nawab
had petitioned the East India Company, but that company
being no longer in existence, application had been made to
the right hon. gentleman. The right hon. gentleman had,
however, declined to act on a petition addressed to the late
company, and he (Mr. Layard) had advised the Nawab's
agent to send out to India for another petition. The agent
had done so, but as it could not arrive until the latter end
of the year, he trusted the right hon. gentleman would allow
the Nawab, who was in great difficulties, to have his pen-
sion, pending the examination of his petition, without pre-
judice to his claim.
Sir C. WOOD said that the case having been: referred to
the Governor of Madras, he could not say anything until
he received his report. At present he believed the Nawab
was in receipt of a reduced pension. He agreed generally
in the principle that the claims of the native princes should
receive as favourable consideration as possible.
INDIAN RAILWAYS AND FINANCE.
Sir C. WOOD rose to ask for powers to raise whatever
money might be necessary for the year's railway work in
India, beyond the sums that might be raised by the different
railway companies. Last year he had estimated the probable
expenditure for railways at £6,000,000, and it reached
£5,900,000, showing the very great accuracy of the esti-
mate. Up to April last eight millions had been expended,
and this year he believed that six millions would be required,
of which between £1,700,000 and £1,800,000; would be
raised by the companies. What he wanted the house And
the country clearly to understand was, that the money
which he now asked power to raise was exclusively for rail-
way purposes. Every one concurred in thinking that the
railway works in India should not be suspended, but that
they should be finished at the earliest possible moment,
especially as this country was paying interest until the
lines were opened. He had no fault to find with the money
market, for, having recently asked for four millions, he had
been offered twenty-one ; but in this ease the house .a as to
understand that not one sixpence was to be borrowed except
for railway purposes. It was his intention also to avail
himself of that opportunity to make a statement relative to
the general finances of India, from which it would be seen
that it was not necessary to raise sixpence for the general
purposes of Government. (Hear.) It would be necessary to
refer to the three past years, and also to Mr. Laing's state-
ment for the current year. He should refer to the past years
very shortly, because the accounts of India were very com
plicated. There had been laid upon the table a return for
1859-60, and also an estimate for 1860-61, which showed
that, although the income was larger than the estimate by
£2,000,000, the expenditure was larger than that estimate
by £3,500,000. That was very unaccountable, yet no ex-
planation was sent from India, but he believed it would turn
out that the reductions which Mr. Wilson stated had been
made in 1859-60 were not brought to account in that year.
While waiting for an explanation, he was much surprised
by seeing a statement of Mr. Laing, that the expenditure of
1860-61 was actually £200,000 more than that of 1859-60,
Mr. Laing, who everybody would be glad to hear was
much better—had since returned to this country, and had
admitted that he had been misled by a statement put forth
in the Calcutta Gazette by the financial Government of
India. The truth, therefore, stood exactly as that which
he (Sir C. Wood) had illustrated—namely, that the reduc-
tion stated by Mr. Wilson, for 1859.60, was not brought to
account until 1860.61. He now came to 1860-61. The ex-
penditure in that year was £46,000,000, and the income
£39,500,000. The estimated deficit was £6,500,000, but
there was included in that compensation for losses in the
mutiny and other charges, which brought it down to
£5,500,000.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR asked whether that included the
home charges ?
Sir C. WOOD said that his calculation included all the
charges on the revenue of India. The actual expenditure
in 1859-60 was £50,475,000 ; the expenditure in 1860 .61 was
£46,067,000, showing an actual reduction of £4,400,000.
The regular estimate for 1861-62 was contained in the
papers on the table, and was framed in March last. It
showed a cash balance of £11,448,000, but in the despatch
received from India, dated the 2d of May, the estimated
cash balance was taken to be £12,850,000 in the official year
ending the 30th April, being £1,400,000 more than was
anticipated in March. Since that time the same system had
been pursued, and therefore he thought he might speak
with confidence of the estimates of the current year Mr.
Laing, in his official estimates, was rather too favourable.
That gentleman proposed to transfer half a million to the
local budget, and he made reductions in the home charges
beyond the Government estimates to tha extent of £300,000,
and by those means he arrived at a surplus of nearly
£250,000. Taking the income to be as it was, and allowing
for no reduction of expenditure, there possibly might be a
deficit of £1,000,000 in the course of the current year; but
as at the end of the year he hoped the expenditure and the
income would be brought into a state of equilibrium,
there would for the future bo no necessity for any loan
whatever for Indian purposes. Of the expenditure for
the present year, £600,000 at least would be found
to be due to the recent famine in India; and the
charge for guaranteed interest was no less than
£1,300,000, which, with the loss on exchange of £473,000,
would amount altogether to £1,773,000. The duty on salt
had been most productive, and he was happy to say that,
owing to the improved condition of the people of India—
although the duty had been very considerably increased—
the consumption had in no degree diminished. In Bengal,
where the duty was 25 per cent., the consumption had
increased 30 per cent. It was only on the item of
opium that any falling off was apprehended ; but, in
view of that apprehension, Mr. Laing had taken a very low
figure for that item. The reduction was of course mainly
on account of the military expenditure, which the house
would be glad to hear had not been carried to a very great
extent. He did not mean to say that it had been carried to
the extent it might be carried, but it was quite impossible
to reduce rapidly without exciting much discontent in so
large a number of men as had been in the military service
of the Indian Government. Seven hundred and seventy-
seven native regiments had been broken up since 1859, and
including the police, the reduction in the native armed
force
was not less than2oo,ooo men. The reduction in ex-
penditure was from £24,750,000 to £15,500,000, showing a
reduction of about nine millions and a quarter. (Hear.)
The extent of the area of the famine was more restricted
than was at first imagined, and was confined solely to the
north-western provinces. During its continuance 143,000
people were daily employed in the relief work, and the
famine also led to considerable emigration from these
districts. He next wished to refer to the evils which had
arisen in the lower provinces of Bengal in regard to the cul-
tivation of indigo. Those evils, which were of long standing,
were felt with great intensity last year, and had been pro •
ductive of much loss and suffering. It appeared by a letter
from the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal, written in 1854,
that while the English capital introduced into the country
ought to prove the greatest blessing to the population gene-
rally, the circumstances were such that the ryots considered
the cultivation of indigo as their direst curse, and therefore
he was not surprised to bear that its cultivation had ceased
to a gyeat extent. The bill on the subject which was intro-
duced by the Indian government was only of a temporary
character, but he must say it was not of a character to operas
-
Over-
ate very favourably on the existing state of things. lie w
not surprised that the planters who had lost money largely
should have got irritated and resorted to legal means to en-
force their contracts against th 9 ryots but a otafo Qi feeling