The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

FOR EASTER.

Lord P ALMERSTON said that he had to appeal to hon.
members in regard to public business. For the conveni-
ence of hon. members it was proposed that the house should
adjourn on the Monday before Easter instead of, as previ-
ously, on the Thursday. It was necessary that they should
pass the army and navy estimates before the day of ad-
journment, and he trusted private members who had motions
to bi ing forward would postpone them on the motion for
going into committee of supply until some more conve-
nient opportunity, so far as public business was con
corned.

AFFAIRS OF ITALY.
The adjourned debate on the motion for going into com-

mittee of supply was resumed by
Mr. JAMES, who expressed his regret that in a matter of
so much interest and importance as the present posture of
Italian affairs the hon. and learned member for King's
County had not concluded his speech with a definite resolu-

tion. There could not be the slightest doubt that in Pied-
mont, and, indeed, throughout the whole of Italy, the debates

of the English House of Commons were read with the deepest
interest and anxiety; and for that reason alone, if for ne

other, the able speech of the hon. and learned member for
King's County, impugning the Italian policy of her Ma-
jesty's Government, ought to have been followed by a dis-
tinct motion. His regret that the hon. and learned member

had not pursued that course was increased by the fact that
in another place ante-prandial conversations were indulged
in night after night on matters of the greatest interest af-
fecting the policy of Sardinia andthe general affairs of Italy,
and that those conversations, though entitled to no weight,
were regarded in some quarters as if they were expressions
of the deliberate opinion of the assembly in which they took
place. It was not his intention upon the present occasion to
follow the hen, and learned member for King's County into
the contrast which he had instituted between the financial
position of Sardinia and that of the Papal States. Whether
the imports into the island of Sardinia had fallen off during
the war was a matter of no consequence to the present oc-
casion. One might as well take the imports into Ireland dur-
ing the famine as a test of the prosperity of England at that
trying period. So, with respect to the importation of eoal and

iron into Ancona. Everybody knew that the coal and iron
imported into Ancona were not consumed by the inhabitants
of the Papal States, but were intended for the use of the
various steamers touching at that port. They were, in fact,
no more a test of the prosperity of the inhabitants of the
Papal States than so much coal and iron imported into
an island in the middle of the Mediterranean. Nor was
it his intention to follow the hon. baronet the member
for Dundalk into his most discursive speech. The staple
of that scolding speech consisted of abuse of the Em-
peror Napoleon, allusions to a threatened invasion from
France, a revival of all those delicate topics which had been
used to excite the enthusiasm of our volunteers,and the sub-
stitution of nicknames for arguments. In the opinion of the
hon. baronet Garibaldi was a pirate, and the King of Sar-
dinia a traitor. He submitted, with due deference, to the
hon. baronet that a question of such paramount importance
as that raised by the hon. and learned member for King's
County should be discussed upon higher grounds and in a
more dignified manner. Nicknames were not arguments ;
abuse possessed no power of persuasion ; and nothing could
be gained by following the bad example recently set in
France, where the priests were calling their Sovereign
" Pontius Pilate." There were two questions, as he under-
stood it, before the house, one relating to the conduct of Sar-
dinia, and the other relating to the Italian policy of her
Majesty's Government. He would not weary the house

with unnecessary observations upon the conduct of Sardinia
and its relation to the interests of Italy. It was natural
that the people of Italy, who had been exposed for years to
all the horrors of Austrian tyranny, should look to Sar-
dinia to relieve them from the misgovernment under which
they had so long groaned. Charles Albert failed in his
attempt to free Italy in 1848, but in 1859, when Sardinia
had obtained a large accession of territory by the an-
nexation of Lombardy, it became more than ever
natural that the inhabitants of Southern Italy, seeing the
establishment of constitutional government in the North:
should desire and invoke the sympathy and aid of Pied-
mont. (Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet the member for
Dundalk had-charged the Government of Sardinia with
complicity in the Garibaldi expedition from Genoa ; and no
doubt it was known to the Cabinet of Turin, as it was
known to the whole of Europe, that a strong national feel-
ing had burst out among the people of Italy, and that a
vigorous effort would be made by them to redress their in-
juries. The expedition from Genoa was the result of an
enthusiasm which the Sardinian Government could not have
restrained,just as our own Government could not have re-
strained the enthusiasm of those hired mercenaries who,under
the pretence of joining the Papal police, left Ireland for the
purpose of fighting against the freedom and independence of
Italy. But Garibaldi was a pirate What reason the hon.
baronet the member for Dundalk had for calling him so was
more than he could tell. Garibaldi throughout the whole
of his career of disinterested patriotism always pointed to
the Sardinian flag and declared he was fighting for King
Victor Emmanuel. His progress from Marsala to Messina,
from Palermo to Naples, was one continued triumph. The
entire population was with him, and a man who commanded
only a mere handful of volunteers, and who had no cannon
except those surrendered to him by the Royal troops,
passed through the country like a conqueror. It had
boon said that when Garibaldi arrived in Naples that
capital was like a city of the dead. He well remembered
all the circumstances attending the arrivalof the Liberator.
The enthusiasm of the people was unbounded, and the en-
trance of Garibaldi into the house which had been selected
as his residence in Naples was delayed by the crowd of
priests who pressed forward to kiss the hem of his gar-
ment. The soldiery threw up their caps with joy, and the
men who had been instructed by the King to fire upon the
people did not venture to perform the duty entrusted to
them. Garibaldi a pirate 1 Surely there never was such an
instance of disinterested patriotism. (Cheers.) He had the
whole treasures of Naples itt his hands, and YOt he left the

city as poor as when he entered it. When he entered Naples
his only possession was his sword, and he quitted it with
barely sufficient to pay his passage to Caprera. (Cheers.)
During his stay in Naples he was careful that not an insult
should be offered to the King. He never entered the Royal
Palace. Property was as secure as in the most peaceful
times, and not a crime was committed which might not
have been sufficiently punished with a short imprisonment.
Was it not that, in consequence of the state of misgovern-
ment in Naples, his people were glad of the opportunity of
throwing off their allegiance to the King ? (Hear, hear.)
But, said the hon. member for King's County, that govern-
ment was a paternal government. He would read a short
extract from a letter which was found among the papers of
Louis Philippe, written by the father of the ex-King of
Naples, which would give a little insight into the way in
which the Neapolitans were governed :
"My people de not want to think. I take upon myself
the care of their welfare and their dignity. I must draw
closer to Austria. Liberty is fatal to the Bourbons. The
Bourbons are ancient, and if they were to try to shape them-
selves according to the pattern of new dynasties they would
be ridiculous. We will imitate the Hapsburgs. If fortune
plays us false, we :hall be true to ourselves."
That was what was called the paternal government whish
the ex-King of Naples was administering to his subjects.
(Hear.) It might be that for this state of things the ex-King

was not originally responsible ; the system pursued there
had been precisely the same for a long period ; no doubt
the last advice given to the ex-King by his father was that

he should still pursue the same course, and that the lesson
was instilled into his mind—which, no doubt, was true—

that liberty was fatal to the Bourbons—that they must imi-
tate the Hapsburgs, and be governed by the Austrians. Now

what was the state of Naples when Garibaldi entered ?
There was but one institution in Naples, and that was its

police. (Hear, hear.) The dungeons were thrown open on
the arrival of Garibaldi. There came out from these prisons

men who had been imprisoned for years for what they called
political offences, but who had never been tried or confronted

with their accusers. There was a system of espionage
there, because it was a Government that made war, not

upon the poor by exaction—it did not merely paralyse phy-
.

sical action, or abridge material comfort ; but it was a
tyranny upon intellect, freedom of thought, and the edu-

er.ted mind of the people. The system of espionage was so

ramified that he was afraid to tell the house the number of
sbirri and spies employed. The Government could say with

Macbeth—

" There's not a one of them, but in his house
I'll keep a servant fee'd."
The system was such as that under Fouche, when a man did

not know, when he was sleeping with the wife of his bosom,
whether he was not sleeping with a traitress and a spy.
(Hear, hear.) Some of these prisoners had been tried by

what was called a commission, but without even knowing
the offence for which they were tried. He remembered a

most remarkable instance. One who had beenreleased when

Garibaldi ordered the prisons to be thrown open called upon
him the morning after his discharge, and having made in-

quiry into his statement he had reason to believe that it was
true ; it was but a sample of the system which had been
going on. Ho was a young man and a gentleman; he said
he had been confined in Ischia or in Procida—they shifted
the prisoners from one prison to the other ; he had been
_ _

confined for two years and two months ; and what was his
offence ? He had one day taken a carriage in Naples to
drive a little distance with a friend, and they talked together

about liberal institutions. He had not returned to his home

and wife half an hour when ho was arrested and dragged to
prison by the police. He was utterly at a loss to know who

were his accusers ani their witnesses. He did not know

whether the friend with w hem he had been talking had been

the traitor or spy. He had never been allowed to see him till

he was discharged. His friend had been imprisoned for the
same period, and both, during an imprisonment of two years
and two months, entertained of :each other the same hor-

ribTe suspicion, which, to honourable minds, was as great a
misery as the imprisonment itself. (Hear, hear.) It turned

out, when both met, that the coachman who drove them
was a hired spy in the pay of the King of Naples, and that
he swore the accusation against them. That was a sample
of the state of things which prevailed in Naples. His hon.
friend, in alluding to the conduct of the noble lord the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, had made one of the most extraor-
dinary statements he had ever heard. In broad terms he
accused the noble lord of having prevented the King of
Naples from fighting at the head of his troops. A more

monstrous accusation, in a total absence of materials for it,
he had never heard. The hon, member for King's County

had misapprehended a despatch which had reference to a
totally different state of things. The noble lord referred to
the effect of interposition if there should be an attempt to
repeat the horrors of the bombardment of Palermo. Prevent
the King from placing himself at the head of his troops I

Why, he found in Calabria that long before that despatch
had been received the troops had voluntarily laid down
their arms, and refused to fight for the King. Why ? Be-

cause the King's father had stated publicly that his troops
were meant to keep down his people, and if Naples or Italy
were invaded he should rely on Austrian bayonets. (Hear,
hear.) He could not, therefore, understand how such an
inference could be drawn from the noble lord's despatch as
that he had prevented the King from placing himself at
the head of his troops. But the hon. gentleman, referring
tq the despatch of the 27th of October, said the noble lord
was not correct in stating that the whole population had
taken up arms. The noble lord was perfectly correct.
The hon. gentleman seemed to think that he was cor-
roborated in bis views by the statement of the Times'
correspondent that there were not above 100 Neapoli-
tans who became :soldiers in Garibaldi's army. Did
he not know what that meant ? The correspondent of the
Times evidently referred to the citizens, or, if he might use
the expression, cockneys of Naples. Garibaldi had troops
enough, and the citizens of Naples enrolled themselves as
national guards and volunteers for the protection of Naples;
yet his whole army—the thousands of men who flocked
around his standard, were inhabitants of the kingdom of
Naples. What was the meaning of the despatch He had
the honour to call on the noble lord before leaving for Cala-
bria. (Hear, and a laugh.) He was politely received—
nothing more—as every one was who called on the noble
lord, whether political friend or opponent. He called for
this reason—he had intended to put a question to the noble
lord :—lf an attempt were made to bombard Naples as Pa-
lermo had been bombarded, what course would the British
Government pursue ? The house broke up some what sud-
denly, and he had no opportunity to put the question, and
he called on the noble lord to obtain an answer. The noble

lord said the Government would not, as he thought, allow
the horrors of Palermo to be enacted at Naples, and that
he might say so. Did the hon. gentleman mean to sup-
pose that the English fleet would be allowed to lay at Naples
calmly reposing on their shadows, and see re-enacted the
horrors of Palermo ? (Hear, hear.) It would indeedhave
been an impeachment of the noble lord to suppose that he
could allow such a state of things. Well, but it was said
there bad been a great deal of anarchy. Where was it ?
Where did it happen ? He was perfectly ready to admit
that for a short time there had been a state of uncertainty;
but what course did Garibaldi pursue ? With the same
disinterested conduct which distinguished him throughout,
he declared for annexation of Naples to Sardinia ; he con-
sented to the mission to offer it to Victor Emmanuel, and
with the same view the elections had taken place. There
were some extraordinary fallacies to be guarded against here.
A great deal had been made of the outrages said to have
been committed at either side by General Cialdini and the
Papal generals ; but the facts which he was about to give
to the house in reference to the extraordinary statement
made by the hon. member for the King's County would
show, he thought, that'credence ought not to be given too
implicitly to rumours of that kind. The hon. gentleman

had stated that at Milan very few persons had voted ; and
that at Piacenza, out of 1,238 voters, only 60 had recorded
their votes. The franchise in Sardinia consisted of an LS
or £lO rental-40f. direct taxation, and there were other
qualifications such as gentlemen on the other side called
" fancy franchises." (No, no.) Well, then, gentlemen on
his side of the house, if they preferred it. (Laughter) The
name had originated on that side, and was adopted at
the other. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing in the
name of " fancy franchise" except that it was rather vul-
gar. (Laughter.) Now, what were the facts with regard
to the voting in Milan ? That city was divided into
five electoral colleges, in the first of which were 1,304
electors ; in the second, 1,864 ; in the third, 1,235 ; in the
fourth, 1,177 ; and in the fifth, 1,549. In the first col-
lege 775 voted ; in the second, 1,056 ; in the third, 678 ; in
the fourth, 598 ; and in the fifth, 843. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. gentleman had spoken of Liborio Romano, whom he
called " a traitor." Traitor was a hard name ; he was a
Minister who had changed sides— (laughter)—with as much
rapidity as had been done elsewhere, and whe joined a coa-
lition Ministry. (Laughter and cheers.) He really was
at a loss to understand how his hon. friend could have said
that Liberio Romano had been returned to Parliament by
only 119 votes. The fact was that he had been returned for
six places, and that in the district where the numbers stood
lowest in his favour 475 votes had been recorded, when inti-
mation was received that he had already been returned for
five other places, and he consequently declined to carry the
contest further. Another fact which would correct the im-
pression created by the speech of the hon. member for the
King's County, that the Italian electors were wholly indif-
ferent to the result of the election, was that in Piacenza,
instead of the voting being confined to 60 voters, as he
alleged, 923 electors voted out of a total constituency of
1,786. (Cheers) In Florence, as to which another extra-
ordinary statement of a similar character had been made,
he found that there were four colleges, of which the first
contained 1,719 electors ; the second, 1,347 ; and the fourth,
1,310. Of the third of these colleges he had mislaid the
return. Of the first there voted 769 registered electors; of
the second, 572 ; of the fourth, 462. (Hear, hear.) Tie
figures which he was now quoting were taken from the offi-
cial returns made to the Sardinian Parliament, and examined
and tested by a committee of that body. (Cheers.) Re-
membering that these elections had taken place among a
people new to the exercise of the franchise ; that they had
no organisation for the conveyance of voters to the poll:-
(laughter)—that inducements to vote such as existed in
certain boroughs that could be named were altogether
absent, and that these really were primitive electors, he
thought the figures he had read conclusively answered the
remark that the Italian people had shown no interest in
the proceedings. The record of votes at Sardinian elec-
tions was likewise affected by the fact that a candidate
was returned as soon as a third of the constituency had

polled in his favour. Others, therefore, who might have
been willing to give him their support became luke-
warm about the matter as soon as it was known that he
had obtained the requisite number of votes. (Hear, hear.)
Deep interest and euxiety were felt in Italy with refer-
ence to all statements made in that House, and he
therefore pledged himself for the accuracy of these returns,

and should be glad that the hon. gentleman would take
the trouble of looking into them. The Italian Parliament .

on which an attack had been made, contained men of
integrity, of literary ability, and of great eminence in their
own country, and he believed their debates would con-
trast favourably with those of any free Parliament in
Europe. Both the hon. member for King's County and

the bon. member for Dundalk had passed great encomiums

on the Pope. Of the religion to which Fenelon and Bos-

suet had belonged it was impossible for hiss to speak
otherwise than with respect ; but, in his belief, the tem-

poral power of the Pope was doomed. Those gentlemen
said that the Pope's government was a paternal govern-
ment, and that under it people were far happier than in
other States. But could any one shut his eyes
to the fact that this temporal power—call it a theocracy, a
system of ecclesiastical government, or what they would—
was the very bane of his spiritual authority ? If harsh and
cruel laws were administered in the name of the Pope, the
veneration in which he was held as the head of the Roman
Catholic religion became lost in the contempt and execra-
tion awakened by his temporal misgovernment. (Cheers.)
There had been Popes, like Julius 11. and Alexander VI.,
who placed themselves at the head of armies and added
territories by conquest to the Papal dominions. There had
been Popes who protested against the principle of foreign
intervention, and Popes following after, who when their
temporal power was endangered, immediately invoked the
aid of foreign powers; and the result had been that, as
regarded their temporal possessions, the Popes were alter-
nately the vassals of Austria, of France, and of Spain.
(Hear.) If you proposed laws from the altar, instead of
the throne, if those laws be cruel and • corrupt, the result
will be visited on that religion with which they are thus
associated. (Cheers.) If in the name of the Pope
cruel executions and trials without even a shadow of justice
took place—if bishops were made policemen and policemen
bishops (laughter)—if the peasant was constrained to see in
every priest a spy and in every bishop an enemy—could it
be wondered that all devotional feeling was destroyed in the
population. and that the Pope became responsible in their
eyes for the grinding tyranny of his temporal sway ?
(Cheers.) Much as he venerated the religion of every man_
he believed that the Papal authority in its temporal aspect
was gone, and that the struggle to maintain it would only
endanger his spiritual power. The Italian policy of her
Majesty's Government had been impugned, but he ventured

to think that the course pursued by the noble lord had been
clear and unambiguous—(hear, hear)—and that his policy
was just and enlightened. (Cheers, and a cry of No, no 1)
His hon. friend the member for Brighton said "No, no 1".

and perhaps he went further than he did in his view of what
the Italian policy of the Government should have been.
But he could not help thinking that to restore order and con-
stitutional law in Italy—(cheers)—was to have achieved a
great deal. There had, of course, been Republicans in
Italy—honest men, who dreamed of a political Utopia; but
Count Cavour—whom he regarded as one of the greates t
statesmen in Europe—(cheers)—succeeded in bringing the
swo'len torrents within the limits of a wise policy; and in
this he had been assisted by her Majesty's Government,
who gave to him the moral influence of England. In this
respect their policy commended itself to the people of Eng-
land—(hear, hear)—and were it possible to elicit the feel-
ing of the House of Commons on any scheme of policy
shadowed forth by gentlemen who thought differently—
and this he might observe had not yet been attempted—(a
laugh)—ho felt sure there would be a triumphant majority
in favour of the course which the noble lord had pursued.
(Hear) England might point to that policy as filling one of
the brightest pages of her annals. In the spring of last year the
noble lord had before him circumstances of great difficulty.
His aim was that there should be a fair expression of
the opinion of England, as she had a right to express her
opinion where the liberty of a nation was concerned. He
was anxious to keep the armies of Austria and France out
of any struggle in that peninsula, because Italy in such a
case would have suffered the worst, as she always had done.
This country occupied a position on this question of which
she might be justly proud. We bad in past times squan-
dered blood and treasure in unjust and impolitic wars. We
had lavished millions to uphold the Bourbons on the throne,
and had equipped armies to maintain a crumbling empire
in the East, But the moral influence of England was lately
heard amid the crash of arms and the conflict of parties.
Without the sacrifice of a life, without adding to the bur-
dens of taxation, she had assisted to secure the liberties of a
great country, which when united, would be her greatest
safeguard in the balance of power ; for the policy she had
pursued would bind Italy to her by every feeling of grati-
tude,'while it must also commend itself to the free spirit and
love of justice inherent to the British people. (Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—My hon. and learned-friend has certainly I
made a very able speech. (Hear, hertrYl-He has not been
discursive, but he may have been:ante-prandial. (A laugh.)
He has treated his subject with his accustomed talent and
skill. In fact, he has given us, in a very entertaining
manner, what I may, without exaggeration, call the re-
miniscences of a vacation ramble. (A laugh.) We know
that in the autumn of last year he passed through Italy.
He:saw Garibaldi, and probably also Liborio Romano, who
if not a traitor, is at all events the biggest rat. (Laughter
and cheers.) What I gather from my hon. friend's address
is, that, after all, lawyers are like other men—that gentle-
men learned in the law have in the excitement of forensic
display,or the homely comforts of the Inns of Court,nothing
commensurate with the " pomp and circumstance of glo••
rious war." (Laughter.) I cannot pretend to import into
this discussion the animated topics that he has introduced.
My only object in ri,ing is to offer a very few observations
which have been suggested to my mind by the course of this
debate. I listened attentively to the very able remarks of
my hon. friend the member for Southwark the other night,
with whom I quite agree as to tie importance of this discus-
sion, both as eliciting an expression of policy on the part of
this house and as giving encouragement to the Italians,
who follow our debates with great anxiety, and are natu-
rally inclined to gather confidence from the support they
may meet with in the British Parliament. (Hear.) I can-
not, however, concur with that hon. member, or with the
hon. gentleman who spoko last, in thinking that this dis-
cussion has been brought on in an inopportune manner. I
see nothing inopportune or unusual in it ; it has been
raised in accordance with an usage often employed to ob-
tain a declaration of opinion from the Government, and of
which the hon. member for Southwark has before now fre-
quently availed himself in order to criticise or attack the
conduct of the Government. (Hear, and a laugh.) With
respect to the speech of the hon. member for King's County
(Mr. Hennessy), of course it cannot be supposed that I en-
tirely subscribe to the views which he expressed either as
to the policy of her Majesty's Ministers, or as to the im-
mense advantages derived from ecclesiastical jurisdiction in
Italy. But this I will say—and lam sure the house will
confirm my assertion—that that hon. gentleman certainly
showed much research in getting up his case, and put for-
ward his opinions with a great deal of spirit and ability.
(Hear, hear.) But the gentlemen who have preceded me
—the hon. member for Southwark, the hon. member for
King's County, and the gallant knight the member for Dun-
dalk—(a laugh)—in alluding to whom lof course allu 3e to
his Italian capacity—(laughter)—those three gentlemen
have monopolised the whole of our time. I wished to speak
the other night at the early hour of 12 o'cicck—(a laugh)—
but 1 had not the opportunity. I have no intention now to
occupy an hour and a-half with extracts from the news-
papers, but will assume—as the honourable member for
Dundalk did not—that everybody is not only acquainted
with the opinions of the press on the policy of the Govern •
ment, but has also read all the blue-books. (Laughter.)
Starting from that point, I shall begin with the honourable
gentleman who introduced this discussion. That hon.
member was, as might have been expected, very severe
upon the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. He accused
the noble lord of actively interfering to promote the Pied-
montese policy, and attempted to show that the trade and
commerce of Piedmont were diminishing and her finances
sinking. The hon. gentleman next turned to the condition
of the Papal States, which he described as very flourishing
and presenting a marked contrast to Sardinia. Now, know-
ing something of Italy, I was struck with this remark, for
it certainly never occurred to me that there was this great
superiority in the 'Papal States over Sardinia. (Hear,
hear.) The honourable gentleman then said that the
noble lord had wilfully concealed despatches, and, in fact,
almost made him responsible for some of the atrocities
committed in Central and Southern -Italy. He next
brought forward almost the gravest charge I have ever
heard one member of this house prefer against another, for
he accused the noble lord of having destroyed all confidence
in the honesty and integrity of the Foreign-office. (Hear,
hear.) That is certainly very strong language, and yet I
venture to say, without party feeling or prejudice, I believe
the noble lord can justly affirm that the honesty and in-
tegrity of the Foreign-office are as safe in his hands as in
those of any other man in England. (Cheers.) And of
this I am quite certain, that whether the noble lord or Lord
Malmesbury holds the seals of that department—
Minrster, no
Lord Palmerston or Lord Derby is
Britishthe
country
e c
confidence
withnfi d e n
ca
en
oyf regard Primethe t
tt hcioefual sentimentshtraicvte npounro
nuteedr
vaennyt
ioo other r
butpo la'
feeling be t observed,
B o
uni-
versally
(c et
non-intervention,hpereersssin thoafnto raal
coupled with that seteYsrn—tri
prevalent ex
throughoutwc ohtuohnett
oyo
kw nation.aasn ea nn
ts(Hear,
bffhyeer
eat hear.)
the
tsKhaiwidnagtrise Papal Government was arbi-
vthTrilheursve.braoieldebeeecasrnipsfirireSfi-1-oeutrhat it maintained gross abuse—that it
wasya disgrace rather than a subject of congratulation. He
attacked the vices of ecclesiastical government, and then
insinuated
,that Sardinia's policy was the Italian policy.
Well, those two gentlemen's opinions being so diametrically
opposed to each other, I began to think that neither of them
knew what he was talking about. (Laughter.) They both,
indeed, began by telling us they knew the country, having
travelled through it. (A laugh.)
Mr. HENNESSY—I distinctly said I would not trouble
the house with my experience.
Sir R. PEEL—Am Ito understand that the hon, gentle-
man has travelled through the country ? [Mr. Hennessy

--, _ ,

signified assent.] Oh I then you have. (Laughter.) It
really appears that both of the hon. members have travelled
through Italy, but it is thrown in the mouth of the one •
that he saw the country with different features—that the

one saw it with Monsignori, and the other with vetturini.
(Laughter.) Neither of these, however, could give any

correct idea of the effect of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in the
Papal dominions. I also have seen the country; I know
it well from one end to the other, and I am anxious,
therefore, without entering into wild reminiscences of
rambles or vacation scrambles—(a laugh)—to give my
impressions to the house. The opinions of a person who
has absolutely viewed the state of the country with his
own eyes, and judged of it with his own mind, may, I
think, be deserving of some weight on a question of this
magnitude and importance. I have followed the noble
lord's policy from the close of last session down to the pre-
sent moment with a very eager, I will not say a very hos-
tile, but a very critical eye. I have observed the difficulties
he has had to contend against, and seen one or two of his
shortcomings. (A laugh.) Happily, however, his mis-
takes were corrected by subsequent despatches. In dealing
with this question these three great objects must have
pressed upon the noble lord's mind :—First, there was the
French alliance to be maintained ; next, there was the
policy worthy ot this country to be adhered to ; and, thirdly,
t here was the interest of Italy to be considered. Now, in a
very remarkable speech delivered by Prince Napoleon the
other day, it was well said that the French alliance with
England is not with this or that Minister, but with the
great and loyal English people. Well, the noble lord had to
endeavour to cultivate that alliance, which as a member of
Parliament and a British subject I hope may long continue.
But I admit the French policy in Italy was ambiguous ; it
meddled at Messina—it interfered at Gaeta; it still inter-

venes in Rome; and I think it was a policy which caused
the country great fear and great uneasiness. Then, again,
there was another annexation—a small matter, but stilt an

annexation—of Mentone and Roquebrune. That subject
was alluded to on the first night of the session, and the
noble lord, in replying to a question, observed that it was a
matter of very small importance, which could not affect the
European equilibrium. That is quite true, but still it is an
indication of the policy of the French Emperor. cHear.)
I say that we should be very cautious how we allow these
transactions to pass by unnoticed, and I hopethe noble lord,
with his usual spirit, protested through Lord Cowley
against this annexation. I was mixed up with the events
of 1848-9, and I recollect well what was the policy of the
noble lord at that time. The noble lord allows the matter to
pass now as if not worthy of notice ; but those two same pro-
vinces of Mentone and Roquebrurie were united in 1848 by
the popular voice, and added to the dominions of Carlo Al-
berto. In Oct. 1849 that annexation was ratified by the Turin
Chamber of Deputies, and then came a despatch from the
noble lord threatening them with the anger of all the Powers
that had signed the treaties of 1815, for what he called
" this infamous annexation." (Hear.) I say that if that
was an act of usurpation on the part of Sardinia then the
present annexation is clearly an act of usurpation on the part
of France. (Hear.) But there was also another sort of
difficulty with which the noble lord has had to contend. He
has had to deal with a new system of action—a new feature
in diplomacy. 1 allude to the plan adopted by the French.
Government of issuing pamphlets upon the various politi-
cal questions of the day. Those pamphlets were issued fre-
quently from the French press ; they appeared anony-
mously; if the ideas they developed were approved they
were acknowledged, but if they were not approved then they
were allowed to sink into oblivion. There was one pamphlet
—Le Pape et le Congres—concerning which I find a sene
tence in a despatch of the noble lord to Lord Cowley, dated
Dec. 24, 1860, That despatch was copied into all the French
papers •, but this paragraph I am about to read was omitted
from all, from the Moniteur down to the Constitutionnel---
" This pamphlet has made Pio Nono lose half his States."
I ask the noble lord what is his opinion of the last pamphlet
we have had ; because if ever there was a remarkable one
this is it. It is an open rupture with Rome, a declaration
of war; it attacks the religious system of the country; it
speaks, not anonymously nor in any concealed manner, but
with the sanction and authority of the French Government
and of the Emperor himself. Those were the difficulties
which the noble lord had to deal with in the French policy,
end I think he has steered his course with admirable judg-
ment as fares the French alliance is concerned. (Hear.) As
to the English policy, that, I say, would have been thesame
under Lord Derby as under the noble lord—it is non-inter-
vention, with the influence of our moral support. In the be-
ginning, I must say, there were some indications of vacilla-
tion on the part of the noble lord, which afterwards happily
disappeared, and from October until now I think he has acted
in a straightforward and justifiable manner. (Hear.) That
despatch of August certainly did affect me very much. -
(Laughter.) It was a despatch in which the noble lord
threatened Sardinia in case she should enter the Papal
States, and that, I say, was direct intervention. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—There was no threat.
Sir R. PEEL—WeII, it read very much like it. (Laugh-
ter.) However, the later despatch of October 27 was an
admirable one. Sardinia had then intervened, and the
despatch justified the act, and said that whether France,
Russia, Austria, or Prussia objected or not, he (the noble
lord) approved of it. And that is the policy I approve—
(hear, hear)—and I think that from that time the noble
lord has pursued a most judicious course. He has had to
consider the interests of the country, but he could not
abstain from giving expression to the sympathies of the
nation for the cause of Italy. I have felt warmly for the
Italian cause; and I repeat that the noble lord has done
what no English Government could have declined doing,
and has adopted a policy which has aided the Italians by
giving the moral support of this country to further the pro-
gress of liberty and unity in Italy. (Hear, hear.) I think
questions of foreign affairs will be the most important ques-
tions that we shall have to discuss this session. We may
have but few discussions here, but still I am convinced that
foreign affairs occupy the attention of the Government more,
than any other matt( rs at this time. lam sure that what-
ever differences there may be, if they only follow upon this
question a straightforward, disinterested policy with re-
spect to Italy, it makes but little difference what may bo
the blunders of the Secretary to the Admiralty—(laughter)
—or what may be the differences between the noble duke
at the head of the Colonial Department and the noble lord
upon the subject of the administration of the colonies.
(Renewed laughter.) The Italian question is now centred
in Sardinia and in King Victor Emmanuel. That Sove-
reign was very severely handled by the hon. baronet the
member for Dundalk (Sir G. Bowyer), who made a huge
catalogue of charges against him. Now, I may say that
upon public grounds there were few men in this house who
had more reason to censure Victor Emmanuel for the
transactions of last year than I had. I looked, and still
look upon the annexation by France of Savoy and Nice
as a most serious infringement upon the established law
of Europe. I was the more induced to take up that
question in company with my hon. and learned friend
(Mr. Kinglake), because we felt that, while it affected
the interests of the country, it was also a severe blow to the
independence and neutrality of an ancient and cherished
republic. (Hear, bear.) That was why I strongly advocated
the cause of that country against the policy of the King of
Sardinia, and I feel that that conduct must still cause him
cinsiderable uneasiness, especially when we find that, in an
order of the day issued at Naples, General Cialdini telling
the world that the Sardinians were fighting under the Cross
of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) Why, the Cross of Savoy no more
belongs to the King of Sardinia than to me. (Hear, bear.)
But he is responsible for an act which I am sure he must
still regret, and which he may probably have cause to
lament. (Hear, hear.) But there is one point in connexion
with that annexation to which I will, with the permission
of the house, refer for a moment. There has recently been
a meeting in Switzerland of generals, headed by the most
distinguished man in that count y, who was himself a
mili-
tary ins:ructor to Louis Napoleon when the latter was in
exile, and the words of General Dufour on that occasion will
show the feeling that prevails in that country. He said:—
" Switzerland, although so well supplied with natural
defences, is nevertheless, comparatively speaking? of so
small and limited an extent, that without compromising her
existence she cannot hike part in Eurooean wars. Neutra-
lity, therefore, is not only a necessity but the very element
of its vitality. Happily, that neutrality is at the same
time in the interest of the Powers which neighbour Swit-
zerland, and this has been the opinion of men best qualified
to form one from their experience in military stra‘egy, such
as Napoleon and the Archduke Charles."
It is the act of Victor Emmanuel which has affected the
vitality of that ancient Republic, and upon that ground I
shall never cause to condemn the policy of Victor Emmanuel
and the French Emperor. (Hear, hear.) But when I see
Victor Emmanuel now at the head of the Italian move-
ment, I am not so mean spirited as to crude him success in
his great undertaking. (Hear, hear.) Ido rejoice to see
him in the position which he now holds—the guardian of
the interests of Italy, and called upon to fulfil a task than
which there never was a nobler, and which I fervently
hope he may bring to a speedy and successful termination.
(Hear, hear.) He has to do with men of different ideas,
and I can do no better than quote the noble words of Count
Cavour to Baron Schleinitz in November last :
" Europe ought not to lose sight of the fact that the Sar-
dinian Government is in Italy the sole, Conservative power
capable of raising a rampart against the revolutionary ele-
ment and of subduing it. We are Italy, we act in her
name, but we are also the moderators of the national move-
ment. We are the representatives of the monarchical
prin-
ciple, which in Italy had disappeared, convulsed by popular
vengeance."
That was a noble expression on the part of Count Cavour of
his policy and that of his King, and a vindication to Europe
of their position. And who has that King now to deal
with ? He has to deal with a people who have been ground
down by the effect of successive revolutions, who are
rty
fet-
tered by the triple bond of tyranny, ignorance,
oand
flow seeking to
—for ignorance is poverty, and tyranny
men, who have been so ground down, see
among the na-
tions themselves, to enrol themselves
of their national snot
tags. of Europe, to acquire possessions iration ? Is it not
tage. (Hear.) Is not this a nobleorta
(ft. b {loth. These
the people of this
an effort deserving the moral supp
that have been manifested
tial disturbances and disaffection
No doubt there have been
in some districts of the country.
d on the borders of the Roman
disturbances in Calabria,
one,an
is it to be wondered at that si
country ? (Hear.) Allusions have been made to the par-
States ; but, I ask anavy
been poisoned by the long continu-
ance of their miseries h
alitv of their success ? (Hear.)
should even in the moment of vic-
tory, almost
to say that success is no dream, no fanci-
But I am happy
people whosedloi
ideal scheme of a few hot-headed conspirators;
feel vision, no
a real Italy—gained by the unaided exer-
tions is a reality—
the people and theheroic
deeds of a
man who is
tions of
not pirate, as he was called by the hon. member for Duns
lives
of t
alke, but one distinguished for his patriotism, and who has
undoubtedly excited the admiration of all the nations of the
world. (Hear.) At length, lam happy to say, liberty ia
dawning upon Italy. Lord Malmesbury recently advised
the Italians to " trust to themselves and to no one else for
their liberty." That is true. I have myself seen the Aus-
trian prefets and the mannikin despots who ruled over the
small States of Italy, and I have often asked myself—
" Does she always intend that a tyrant shall print
The footsteps of slavery there ?"
No I Italy is breaking her shackles and rallying round a
constitutional Sovereign and the standard of liberty. That
is a noble destiny for a nation. (Cheers.) She will have
many difficulties to contend against; one of them I will
name, and it is one to which I wish to direct the attention
of the hon. gentleman (Sir G. Bowyer). 'We must recollect
that the movement now going on in Italy is not merely a
result of political feeling; the regeneration of Italy has a
higher cause. Were it merely a political movement even now
I should doubt of a full amount of liberty being realised.
And why ? Because, over and over again, political move-
ments with the plea of nationality have been organised, and
they have failed. But the present movement for the regene-
ration of Italy is a religious movement. (Hear, hear.)
The political and the religious impulses are acting together.
Fanaticism and the mummeries of superstition are giving
way before a spirit of toleration.' (Hear, hear.) That will
be a great blessing. The hon. member for Limerick, 1%10
is net exactly an advocate of the Protestant Alliance, but
rather
(laughter)—observed to me the other evening, during 1r
rather to be regarded as a friend to monastic ascet _
discussion, that an attempt to open a Protestant chapel
t im
t.
Bologna had been prevented by the people wing

C

(Hear, hear.) Well, it is just that spirit of fanaticism the'
Retinue are trying to annihilate. (Heal*, hear.) What
recent decrees, I ask, have most excited the admiration and
applause of the people of Italy ? The decrees that have
broken up the monaati9 institutions and nttw'teries. (Hear,
hear.) Those institutions are unserviceable to civil society,
and can only exist upon its destruction, or upon the want of
it. (Cheers.) Those decrees have been ree'eiVed by the
people of Southern Italy with the greatest applause. But I
admit there is a difficulty in the consideration of this Italian
question—a difficulty that may cause serious inconvenience
before it is settled. That difficulty is not at Gaeta; that
fortress has fallen, and South Italy is entirely free. I ad-
mire the chivalrous conduct of Francis 11. in the last days
of his political existence, or rather of his political aptly ; for
what agony can be greater to a king than to be despised by his
subjects ? (Hear.) I admire the spirit the King of Naples
showed at the last, and I only regret he did not give to his
people the benefit of the better part of his character at an earlier period, But Gaeta has fallen, and the Italian diffi-
culty isnot there ; nor is it at Venice. (Hear, hear.) Prince
Napoleon in his speech treated the question of Venice in a re-
markable manner. (Hear.) What do wesee at Venice? Venice
is not Austrian—it is certainly Italian; but it is trampled
under foot by Austria, and held in Subjection by 10,000
bayonets, by a race foreign to Italy in language, sympathies,
and feelings. (near, hear.) Do not tell me that this state
ofo things can last. (Cheers.) Venice may be trodden
own and ground into the dust, but they cannot change
her from what she is. Venice is Italian I
" States fall, arts fade, but nature cloth not die ;
Nor yet forget how Venice once was dear,
The pleasant place of all festivity,
The revel of the earth, the masque of Italy I"
(Cheers.) That is what Venice was; what is she now ?
(Hear, hear.) See her "in her voiceless woe; see her
Palaces crumbling into ruin ! For in Venice there are none
of those marks of improvement which the hon. gentleman
opposite says he saw in the states of the Pope. No ; you
will find in Venice a melancholy and tristesse most painfld
to observe. (Hear, hear.) But, yet, what I have often told
Italians is this,—"Wait I Do not be in a hurry to take
Venice, and the necessities of Austria and the public
opinion of Europe will give you Venice without fighting or
bloodshed." (Hear.) I have heard of offers to purchase it.
But with the force of 200,000 men in and around Venice, I ,
do not believe the.condition of the finances of Austria will
permit her to hold it long. Therefore the chief Italian
difficulty is not at Gaeta, nor at Venice, nor at Messina.
.) T hts.
It is true Messina still holds out. (Hoer, hear,
gentleman opposite appears to derive some satisfaction from
that circumstance, but I think General Pergola, who has
disregarded the summons of General so
with had better
accept it with honour, while he can
do so with dignity. It
is impossible that Meesina can hold out when the heights
behind the town are in the hands of a_general like Cialdini.
The chief difficulty of Italy is at Rome. (Hear, hear.)
Rome is the real difficulty and the obstacle to the consoli-
dation of Italy. And I ask the hon. gentlemen opposite,
do they know what is the present condition of Rome ? The
Popes, not satisfied with being priests, have resolved to be
kings. But that union of temporal and spiritual power,
which once constituted the strength of the Papacy,
has become the cause of its weakness. Enlightened
Roman Catholics, from the time of Dante to the present
day, have condensed and denounced the temporal power
of the Pope. It was remarked to me by a learned
Italian, that if the Pope determined to retain
the two powers he would lose them both. What is the
condition of the city of Rome? For 11 years it has been
in the hands of the French ; for 11 years French bayonets
have supported the Papacy. The hon. member for Dun-
dalk says that if the Sardinian soldiers were taken away
from the South of Italy the people would welcome back
th,3 King of Naples, and carry in Francis 11. and his
family on their shoulders. I do not know what the cons
sequence would be if the Sardinian troops were withdrawn
from the territory of Naples, but this, I know, that if the
French troops were to leave Rome an outburst of popular
indignation would sweep away the Pope and the whole
college of Cardinals together. (Hear, hear.) The tem-
poral power of the Pope has been defended in this House.
We are told that we exaggerate the facts stated against it,
and that the Roman States are better governed than any
other part of Italy. But how is it that all Italian feeling
and sympathy are opposed to that temporal power
is the reason ; the Papacy as it exists in Italy is an insti-
tution of the middle ages, and, liko the monastic institu-
tions and others, must yield to the course of time and the
progress of events. (Hear hear.) The hon. eman
opposite smiles; but I think we may well smilegentl with pity
and contempt when we listen, as I have done, to assertions
of the doctrine—the blasphemous and damnable doctrine,
as the Church of England calls it—that gives the Pope
the power to absolve the people of other Staters from the
oath of allegiance to their Sovereigns. (Cheers.) That
power it was attempted to exercise against Victor Em-
manuel. The thunders of the Vatican were prepared ;
why were they not launched ? Why was not the threat
put into execution ? Because they would have roused the
execration of all Italy, and have fallen without effect on
the head of that sovereign. (Cheers) Talk about eccle-
siastical government ! Why the bigotry of the Church of
Rome cannot be disputed. For centuries it has condemned
not only the writings but the liberties and lives of thou-
sands of Tnen of literature and science. (Hear.) It has
done from the time of Galileo to the present. (Hear,
head;) We need not be surprised, therefore, if in the moment
the triumph of the one and the difficulty of the other
there is so little sympathy between the people of Rome and
the Government. (Hear, hear.) If, in the course of my
observations on these Italian questions I have not alluded
to my own experience, perhaps the House will allow me
to do so on the subject of the bigotry of the Church of
Rome. (Hear,hear.). It waaonly the other day, when tra-
velling through the South of Spain, that I was in commu-
nication with two men who have been giving proof of their
truth. and honesty by suffering from their faith. One of
them had been committed to prison for 11 years, and the
Either was on the point of being adjudged the same punish-
ment. Their names are worthy of being recorded, and there-
fore I shall give them—they are Alhatna and Matamoros.
Those two men I saw myself, and they were the victims of
the bigotry of the Court and in power of the priestcratt.
Their seat fault was that they had in their possession a
copy of the Holy Scriptures. (Hear, hear.) There is the
higetry of the Church of Rome! (Hear, hear.) My heart
bled for Matamoros. He was in a prison not larger than a
few feet square. When I saw him he was suffering, but he
was courageous. When I told him to remain firm in the
faith which he had adopted, he said he looked to this free
country, England, for that sympathy which would allevi-
ate his sufferings. (Hear.) This bigotry of the Church of
Rome has been fir,generations. It has interfered with the
emancipation of the human mind by choking and stopping
up the avenues of human knowledge. It is time that those
anomalies should cease. (Hear.) I believe that the Reforma-
tion bas commenced in Italy. (Hear.) I believe that the
desire for civil liberty in that country is united with a strong
desire for religious freedom and that that which has already
been accomplished in Germany, in England, and in Scot-
land, has been commenced in Italy. (Cheers.) I say that the
Reformation is growing apace in Italy, in spite of the Court
of Rome, and in spite of the bishops. This accounts for
the wish of the Church of Rome to stop the march of
Italian revolution which it sees is every day sapping the
foundation of ptiestcraft and priestly intolerance. But,
sir, the great movement has gone on, and I may be per-
mitted to express my hope that that system of progress
which checks superstition and religious intolerance may
take still deeper root in the minds and affections of the peo-
ple, and that their country may enjoy the full blessings of
universal liberty. (Cheers.) These are my feelings on
Italy. I believe I have not exaggerated. I believe I have
spoken the truth with regard to the bigotry of the Church
of Rome and the intolerance of its conduct; and I believe
the Italians will do well.to separate themselves from that
conduct, and turn from idle talus to the blessings of re-
li-ioua liberty. (Rear, hear.) Gentleinen opposite accuse
tl7" l'("11"Y of the noble lord the Foreign Secretary; but I
assert that-the noble lord could not have acted othirwiee
tient on a policy of non-intervention, coupled with the ex •
pression of those eentiteents to W bich I have before referred.
(Hear, hear.) Th Italian people will be worthy of our
81 Mpatity and encouragement so bmg, as they show that
prudence, di:cretion, and dignity which they have shown
fr,on lie aionariencereent, of their struggle to procure that
liberty wir;ch was so long forbidden them. (Cheers.) In
thanking the house for the kindness with which they have
listened:to the few observations that I have addressed them,
I would ask :hem to let the qrtestion its& f plead my apology
for any warmth which may have chnracterised those re-
marks, (Cries of" dear, hear.") llnd, in conclusion, the
best hope I ran utter--the best wish I cart en'ertain—is one
which is echoed by, honsanda and ten thousands of people
to-day, and which, telt, almost invariably, by the people
of this country, it is that the' present occasion of revolu-
tion may nor close without affording to Europe and the
eivi:ized world the glorious spectacle of a united and con-
tented Italy, with a reformed and invigorated priesthood.
(Loud cheers )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—My hon.
friend who has jest sat down has addressed the how with
his usual force and ability. (near, hear.) He has given us
a just aridolequene description of the position of the King
of Sardinia ; and he has also declared, and declared with
truth, that my noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
has, in regard to theltalian question, pursued an admirable
policy—a policy than which none other would have been
freely tolerated by the people of England. (Hear, hear.)
If this debate had been confined to criticisms of the King of
Sardinia, or if it,concerned only the policy of my noble
friend, I, for one, should have remained •silent, beemeee
think that policy is one; which commands approval far be-
yond the limits of party connexion—far beyond the walls of
this house—far beyond class or interest. (Hear.), I be-
lieve it is stamped with approval throughout the body oithe
people of and,
E 13,1 from the greatest to the least. (Hear.)
Bet my ben. friend the member for Dundalk (Sir G. Bow-
yer) following in some degree the line marked out by the
hen. member foOhe King's County, but likewise extend-
ing the subject of debate, has raised a great issue; for ho
he'd solemn language. He told us in terms of, I have no
doubt, great sincerity that we ought to lament our foreign
policy—that Ir:was 'founded on injustice and cculd not,
prosper, and that the cause which we f,vcured in Italy
was the persecution of righteous Governments. lie rang
the chiuswes on the lasveof nations, public right, established
authority, and legitireataepossession.. These phrases came
round in. (Aureoles tarrioat like the chimes of the clock which
we had in: this neiglN,urhood last year; but I must say
that they did not strike on my ears quite so musically.
(Laughter,) Thom events which we and the people of
England 'lookto with it mixture of wonder, astonishment,
and admiration, are, according to him, nothing but the
result of unworthy intrigues carried on by an unprin-
ciPle€l King and a, cunning Minister; and the issue
Which her has. raised is that the people of Italy were
not an
.PPro4.d Governments,
(H
but a people attached to their
(Hear, hear.) The honourable member
under the and those who
think with him' tell us that there existed
system, se always
tiovernments a beneficent and benignant
Government whi
""3e,Y administered, and in respect of that
nl ch is, above all others, solemn, for it has
the so emn
aches of religion, members of the house are
rreelaigdsio'
ntoiatesseuirf.e:us(ttt
aeers,t, was
ea a
r.
ed on in the spirit of that
the face of th!ts hears, eisa I wish to try into unquestionab:e
sources, (ho'ki nliegation'eonf"th hon. gentlemen
(Sr G. Be w.yer) et-q. triie. sn
raLt hia-htatthheeh:lnso.. reiacerievbeesr
himself heliercs thcra ts, be tee'
he h,s then' fr°l4lll€'lust sourness I however, afraid it'
rill be foind tt he heanot had them
tt:irticzittl,l4 ose
whisezhicaevse,
t he impnre sources of. there
unlmlyaiork to tramPle do
but true
for freneratiolVs. mule it" their
Ahoppineis ofthePassi-Nan people. (TT
the 141)' ell)"
,---earshear.)
so well put by nashese
Why what is the case of Naples, as.
ber for Southwark in that speech which' he
friend the man
addressed to ill the 'other night—a speech wartnedb a
characterised by well estalshebee
generous entbusiasixt and

truth ? My hon. fliend (Mr. tayard) said that Naples was
that country where perjury was the tradition of the. King.
(Hear, hear.) We would net trust th'etioh of Sam - 11., and
we cannot: Wonaer that the Neapolitans say 1r cY cannot
trust a Xiiig of Naples without seeing the Some from which
ho has sprung. It is needlc+.B to go back very ar—to refer
to the days of Ferdinand IV.—to see the mix'uroof violence
and fteud as the engines of the Governmen of Naples. Let
us begin with the time of the late Ring. Is it not on record
that if ever a man. was perjured on the face of the earth,
the late Xing of Naples was that man ? (Hear, hear.) Did
he not in February, 1848, confer a Constitution on his
people, and ratify it with a solemn oath ? (Hear, hear.) And
did he not, after the bloody struggle of the 10th of May,
again retry that Constitution? I shall read his oath on
that occasion. Ile says :
" With reference to our sovereign Act of the 29th of
1848, by which, concurring with the unanimous
desire
uarof
our most beloved subjects, We have promised, of
January,
y
otatnr own hill, free, and spontaneous will, to establish in this
kingdom a Constitution, conformable to the civilisation of
the times, whereof we then indicated, by a few rapid strokes
the itindaMental bases, and reserved our ratification of it
till it should be set out and arranged in its principles, ac-
cording to the draught which ourpresent Ministry of State
was to submit to us within ten days' time; determined to
l give immediate effect to this fixed resolution of our mind,
in the awful name of the Most Holy and Almighty God,
the Trinity in Unity, to whom alone it appertains
to read the depths of the heart, and whom we
loudly invoke as the judge of the simplicity of our inten-
tions, and of the unreserved sincerity with which we have
determined to enter upon the paths of the new political
order, having heard, with mature deliberation, our Council
of State, we have decided upon proclaiming, and we do
proclaim, as irrevocably ratified by us, the following Con-
stitution."
(Hear, hear.) And in most solemn terms that terrible oath
Was repeated in the face of Europe. What has become of
that Constitution? Why, it was trampled under foot.
(Hear, hear.) And that which it is difficult to convey to
the mind of those who are assembled in this house, or in
any other place in this country, is, that the case of the Go-
vernment at Naples was not the case of a Government guilty
of particular actions wrong in this or that respect, but that
of one built up and founded on the denial and destruction of
law. (Hear, hear.) In the first place, the Constitution so
solemenly sworn to was shamelessly set aside and violated;
but in the second, it is to be remembered that, even though
the Constitution had never existed, the' whole course of the
Government at Naples, so far as regards the relations of the
people to the Crown, was lawless from first to last. (Hear.)
I heard a gentleman in this house speak the other night
with horror of the principles of 1789. I will not enter into
any discussion as to the comparative merits or demerits of
one period or another of the great French Revolution, but I
suppose the bon. gentleman meant to speak more particu •
larly of the agonising transactions that took place in 1793.
Amid the flood of evils which that period let loose on
Europe, the most pernicious is undoubtedly the system of
modern police. (Hear.) That was the fruit of the great
French Revolution, and it was embraced and hugged to the
heart by every Government in Italy—(hear)—and it was by
1 means of that police, substituted for good political govern-
ment, and intrusted with the maintenance of law and order,
that the subjects of the King of Naples were doomed and
compelled to live in an atmosphere of lawlessness. (Hear.)
Their rights had no existence, and the, reign of wrong and
violence was universal. (Hear, hear.) That was the position
of the people of the Two Sicilies during the reign of the late
King and after the revolution of 1848, for from that period,
and after the solemn and awful oath to which I have refer-
red, their condition was altered greatly for the worse.
(Hear, hear.) We now come to the accession of Francis 11.
and it is painful to speak of one so young and so unhappy;
but certainly if ever there was a human being, young or
old, who marred and spoiled his own destiny, it was that
miserable monarch. (Hear, hear.) It is all very well to
claim consideration for him on amount of courage, but I
confess I feel much more admiration for the courage of the
hon member for Dundalk (Sir G. Bowyer) and the hon.
member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), for I think I
would rather live in a casemate listening to the whizzing
of bullets and the bursting of shells, than come before a
free assembly to vindicate—(Loud cheers, which prevented
the conclusion of the sentence being heard.) I for one do
not hesitate to say that when Francis 11. ascended the
throne he did so tinder circumstances unusually favourable.
(Hear, hear.) Let me do justice even to the previous King
or Naples. He proved himself a man of great practical abi-
lity, and he certainly exhibited political courage. His cause
was founded on wrong, but he made good his grmind in the
face of Europe, and he left his son in a position to make
concessions without having them imputed to alarm. If it
had been the policy of that son to govern even with decent
moderation ; if he had had one single spark of human sym-
pathy in his composition; hadhe endeavoured to soothe even
one sorrow among the millions of his oppressed subjects, he
might have been King of Naples at this day, and Italian
unity would still have been a dream. (Hear, hear.) But
short as was his peaceful possession of the throne, short as
was his possession of it at all, even that short time did not
pass by without giving rise to the most frightful revela-
tions. (Hear, hear.) I doubt not there are gentlemen in
this house into whose hands fell a publication that ap-
peared at Paris, and which shortly after, from some myste-
rious cause, was not to be found at any price-el mean a
pamphlet published in the French language, and entitled
"La Torture en Sicile." (Hear.) This pamphlet bore the
name of its author, M. Charles La Varenne, and it contained
names, dates, places, and particulars relative to transactions
that every person interested in the character of the King of
Naples must have desired to see qualified or denied. But no
portion of those statements has ever been denied; and having
myself heard and seen something of Naples in former times
I am bound to say that what I heard and saw fades and
faints by the side of the revelations which that pamphlet
disclosed. (Hear.) But if this was the condition of the
kingdom of Naples, what shall we say with regard to the
States of the Church ? (Hear.) Without desiring to draw
a broad and clear distinction between the personal character
of Pius IX. and the effect of the miserable and execrable
system of which he has been the instrument and the vic-
tim, I am ready to admit that he is simple, gentle, and re-
fined, and possessed of every personal quality and accom-
plishment that could tend to draw towards him feelings of
veneration—(hear, hear)—bat when we speakof the system
with which he is identified, I must tell the hon. member for ,
Dungarvan, who will probably follow me in thi ; debate,
that it is impossible for him, by gathering carefully together
all that was so sedulously shown to him of the hospitals and
charities of Rome, to set aside the troad, the damning facts
that have been established against the Papal Government.
(Hear.) We had last year an official document presented to
us, emanating from Rome, which the great leading journal
in this coutry rather irreverently termed "a prolonged
shriek," and when we consider the epithets with which that
document was studded, the term "atheists," "anarchy,"
"revolution," a-" combination of all the vices," &c., ap-
plied to those who opposed the Government of the Pope in
the Romagna, it is;difficult to describe it by anyother term.
(Hear.) I hold in my hand authentic documents relating
to the Austrian occupation of the Romagna for 12 years.
The evils of 'all. foreign occupations are bad enough, and
this Austrian occupation cannot be thought to have been
mitigated by any peculiar kindliness or refinement in the
character of Austrian soldiers. (Hear.) But what are we to
say of any Government—above all, of a paternal ecclesiastical
Government—which could hand over to the Officers and the
Austrian soldiery-the common edreinistration of justice?
(heat, hear.) Is it possible by any epithet that language
can supply to-convey a picture mere terrific than this—that
the Austrians, whose feelings towards Italy have always
been that of a dominant race, should come in as the defen-
ders of order and religion—(hear)—that not their great offi-
cers merely, but their colonels, their majors, and their cap-
tains, should have delivered into their hands, ignorant as
they are, the common administration of justice? (hear.)
I have in my hands the proofs of what I state. Hero aro
16 men ordered to be shot, not for a political crime, but for
two rapes. Whether they were rightly or wrongly so con-
demned I cannot say—though I may be somewhat doubt-
ful of the 'fact that 16 men should have committed two
rapes—(hear)—but the point to which I wish to call the
attention of the house is. that to theseAustrianisoldiers was
intrusted the ordinary administration of justice. (Hear.)
Here is an example in the case of the brothers Denali, shot
in 1851. The man who ordered them to be shot, and who,
I presume, was responsible for their trial—that is, who
judicially ordered them to be shot—l do not mean the man
who obeyed the orders of justice, but the man who was
their judge and signed their sentence--was an Austrian
majer. The crime of these two brothers was stated to be
that they had received assassins or criminals into their
house. ("-Hear, hear," from Sir G. Bowyer.) Does any-
body, knowing the state of Italy and the condition of the
people, groaning under a military occupation—nay, more,
does anybody, knowing the state of Italy with respect to
the habits of the brigands and the ineffective means which
the people vaaeld ' possess to defend themselves against
them, not see that it is an odious end a monstrous system
which enables a soldier, a major in the Austrian army, to
shoot the subjects of the Pope upon the plea that they have
received briepinds,' or, as they call them, assassins into their
house ? (Hear, hear.) A man named Gherrardi, having
been tried by a major, was sht,t for, the same reason in
1856 ; another, Gian Castelli, after trial by- a captain, was
shot in 1855.. Font. more, whose cases I have here, were
upon. the same, I Must say, most vague and general plea of
receptionof bad characters, shot by order of a captain. An-
other'
Rand}, was, in the year 1851, shot by order of a cap-
tain;and another, named Borghi, was shot upon similar
orgd
revolutions
dvoyouenl nauodrtt
years
oefbncryesoumoor f
:r
in
Bat
81
time 08tf;oan officer of similar rank. These things
tiohBf7N9va,oarc,neudthrieyedvdteii:,d
rilthttehctehureer
ltalounprgei nrig?dt
coursehine
Italy when the disposition of the people to rebel—the.
dispo-
sition, I must say, to vindicate by;:lestus puce the claims of
outraged
jfyhesuarb,duheedar.),
And. ,
loeuatsrat
does
the
really` thiuk that ti state of things like thiss my
was t° on . beneennt-
, dured bya population such as that which inhabits the Ro-
magna ; and does he really think that any Government, even if it were compelled to submit to the monstrous evil 4
oc-
eupation, when, surely, it should abandon the cant and hy-
pocrisy of declaring that its people are fondly attached to its
dominion (hear, hear), ought to deliver up into the hands of
a foreign soldiery the whole judicial machinery of the coun-
try, upon which the peace and private happiness of indivi-
duals and families depend. (Cheers.) I must confess, Sir, '
that it appears to me that the whole doctrine upon which '
has of late years been supported is
stoheinPtoa
rearla intolerable thatsovereignty
y
i g n
thet man who could acquiesce in it-1
mean the Roman or Italian who could acquiesce in it—
would be nothing but a worm, fit to be trampled underfoot.
(Cheers.) What says the moat eloquent champion of the
Papal sovereignty, M. Montalembert ? He says that "It
is a great mistake to suppose that the Papal sovereignty is
a sovereignty over 3,000,000 of Italians to be disposed of
by the Pope. Itis not to be disposed of by:the Pcpe. Every
one of the 200,000,000 Roman Catholics has a right and a
vested interest in the maintenance of the Papal sovereign-
ty." And therefore the people who inhabit the States of
the Church have not even so much hope left as this, that
if the. Pope and the Cardinals are favourable to them they
may have somechance of relief. No I every Roman Ca-
tholic all over the world is to presume to deal with their
feelings and their destinies, and to assert a political
right to establish dominion-over them, which I must, say
appears to me to be a doctrine;' if possible, more monstrous
than that upon which the laws of Praco were founded.
Cheers.) But my hon. ft iend the member for Dundalk fol-
owed the hon. member for Southwark, and said that he had
ealt in a multitude of allegations svhich were all equally
orthless ; that he coull not possibfY occupy the thee of
he house by entering upon a diStussion'of them all, but
hat he would select one for conftitition, and he added ex
no 4isce ()times. By that summary' _convenient, and com-
ohabla proCeSe' my hon. friend get rid of the indictment
iade by the member for Southwark'. ' The statement which
trieleeted for confutation was this., 'that at the capture of
- tntffiases•-tumber of Tomen were'. wantonly killed by the

soldiery. Says thb lion member for .I)Undalk—" I saw two
gentlemen *ho were eye-Winesses, and they assured me
there was no stick thing," . I bete; not got to quote two
gentlemen who were 6yr"-WtuAsses, hut I hate to quote the
printed account of one gentleman who was officially respon-
sible, for he was the Papal officer on the spot. (Hear, hear.)
The paper from which I am about to quole is the report of
that Papal officer tq his siiperior in Reines Ills name is
Monanf, ho Was sub-inteittleht of the oliatrict, ahl lie re-
portteto his Excellency the Intendant-General Agostini, in
Rome. We haYe hoard something ,abolit foreign mercena-
ries, and a coMparisen
,waS drawnhetWeen the toieigners
whom England has at different times employed to make tip
the paucity of her men—a policy, perhaps, doubtful enough
—but a comparison was drawn between them and the
foreigners in the army of the Pope. This reporter, who I
must say seems to do his duty honestly, but who of course
does not make the case too bad, says:—" The enthusiasm
of the troops in attacking the city was indescribable, espe-
cially that of the foreigners and gendarmes." Their en-
thusiasm in assaulting the city was something beyond
the average of the rest of the soldiers. Having men-
tioned that there were certain barricades, he goes mi—
-1 will read it as accurately as I can into English
The soldiers then passed over these barricades. They took
by assault the houses and the convent, where they killed and
wounded all they could, not excepting some women"—
aleune donne—" and, proceeding forward, they did the same
thing at the inn in the Borger San Pietro." This is the case
on which my hon. friend undertook to confute the hon.
member for Southwark, and with respect to which he
thought that confutation would be so easy. Why, sir, this
is the precise assertion in terms that was made by the hon.
member for Southwark, because it was not the accidental
death of women in the moment of assault, but it was the
wanton and deliberate murder of women distinctly testified
to by an officer of the Papal Government. (Hear, hear.)
[Sir G. Bowyer—" Read, read 11 I have read. [Sir G.
Bowyer—" Nothing about ' wanton."'] Ido not find
here the word " wanton." 1 admit that. I find that
the troops when they had got into the town killed
all they could, including women as well as men. (Cheers.)
Now, sir, unfortunately, there is, at least there was, a de-
plorable solidarity among the Italian Governments, and as
sometimes in a miniature you see represented with the
greatest force the features of the countenance, so there was
one of the smallest of these States, the most insignificant of
these Governments, which perhaps presented the fullest
and truest development of the system—l mean the Govern-
ment of a Sovereign to whom no allusion has been made by
my hon. friend the member for Dundalk, the late Grand
Duke of Modena—(hear)—one of those !shorn, of course, we
ought to regard with pity, and even with veneration, as a
righteous ruler driven out of his States by the contemptible
intrigues of Victor Emmanuel. Well, sir, here are again a
set of original documents. Perhaps the hon. member will
say that they are forgeries. ("Hear, hear," from Mr. Hen-
nessy, and a laugh.) I have never seen the original manu-
scripts, but I hold in my hand the published book, and no
contradiction of that book has to my knowledge or belief
ever appeared. (Hear.) Let us have a few specimens of the
mode of governing in that country which was above all
others a paternal State, which was the pet State of the
Austrians, and was steadily supported and uniformly
countenanced by the Pope. The Pope, who has the thunders
of the Vatican ready to launch at the head of Victor Em
manuel, and to brand his crimes, never had any words ex-
cept those of courtesy and kindness for the Duke of Mo-
dena, to whose deeds lam about to refer. These are docu-
ments, of a great number of which I have not been able
to,make myself master, but I think that the specimens
which I shall give you will be sufficient. The first which
I shall cite was written in the year 1853, a time of pro-
found peace. It does not mention whether the persons
referred to were criminal offenders, but I have no doubt that
they were This document is signed "Francesco," and
dated Reggio, May 22, 1853, and is addressed to the Minis-
ter " di Boon Governo," which I may translate " the
Home Office," although my right hon. friend the Home
Secretary, who I am glad to see is not in the House, would
not thank me for the comparison. The decree refers to a
batch of 254 criminals, and orders that they shall all be
sent to another prison, and then continues : " Observing
that about one-third of them, who have received but very
slight sentences from the tribunals, are to finish their sen-
tences within the current year, we decree by our Sovereign
authority that none of them"-80 or 90—" shall be re-
stored io society until they shall have given a proof of re-
formed
conduct in the place where they are to be confined,
and shall have acquired some trade." That is the system
of government with regard to the security of the people
as respects their personal rights. (Sir G. Bowyer.—
The offence ?") The document does not state the offence.
My case is, that they were offences that had been tried and
judged not by Italian juries but by Italian judges, not
persons of opulence and station, like those of this coun-
try, but receiving pittances not sufficient for a moderate
livelihood, and holding those pittances at the absolute
will of the Crown. (Hear, hear.). The Duke of Mo-
dena said, " I decree that the imprisonment of the whole
shall be prolonged until the parties shall individually give
satisfactory proofs of reformation." Again, a young man of
17, named Granaj, of Carrara, was found guilty of murder
or manslaughter. The law of Modena does not permit capi-
tal punishment under the age of 21. After the trial the
Duke of Modena sends forth an edict declaring that, not-
withstanding the law, the young man shall be executed.
[Mr. Bowyer made an observation which did not reach the
gallery.] Ihe hon. gentleman seems in some degree acli-
mated. (Laughter and cheers.) In another edict I find
that the Duke is nauseated by reading three judicial sen-
tences, and his reason is that the crimes are so lightly
treated that the punishment is worth nothing at all. The
Duke is even more nauseated by finding that previous good
conduct has been alleged on the part of the criminals. (A
laugh.) The third thing that nauseates him is that a man
named Felice Libbra, who had been the accomplice of some
criminal, should be let out of prison when he had exhausted
the whole term of his imprisonment. (A laugh.) In this
case the judges were rebuked and a new trial was ordered.
I do not wonder that a smile of incredulity passes over the
lips of hon. gentlemen. It ought to do so. (Hear, hear.) It
would be wrong that in this age and in this part of the world
one should be too ready to believe that such things could
take place. (Hear, hear.) But I quote official documents,
which I offer for the inspection of hon. gentlemen opposite.
I have told the house of the case of a criminal who did not
come under the operation of capital punishment, but in
whose case the Duke made an ex postfacto law for his eme-
cution. Here comes a converse case of a law or a remission
that is not allowed to be retroactive. The Duke, writing to
one of his Ministers, describes his affliction relative to the
case of some criminals who were entitled to the operation
of a mitigating law, and he issues an edict addressed to his
" Dear Cocchi," its object being to declare that the miti-
gating law shall not be applicable to that crime. (Hear.)
Here is another case, in which one citizen was killed and
others were wounded in a row between the townspeople and
the military at Carrara. The order to fire was given, not by
the commander of the troops, but by a soldier, without the
order of the commander, who was on the spot. The Duke
of Modena issued a public edict, stating that, having looked
into the case he was of opinion that the soldier was perfectly
justified in firing without the order of his commander, who
he added, probably deserved a rebuke for not having given
the order to fire. (A laugh.) I will trouble the house
with one more document, and if ever there was a document
that deserves to be transmitted for the study of posterity,
it is this. It is a letter of congratulation addressed by the
Duke of Nlodena to his Minister of the Interior. I will
state its purport in English. The Duke states that, hav-
ing examined the list of those admitted to philosophy and
th superior faculties in the Universi' y from 1848 to 1813,
"we have remarked with genuine satisfaction the
decreasing number of admissions." (A laugh.) He says
that these admissions had previously gone to an excess most
pernicious to society. " We recognise that these results are
owing, not only to the method of examination and the firm-
ness of the professors, but particularly to the firmness of
the Minister of the lnteriur, who is persuaded of the evils
that flow from an excess of students and doceert. (Laugh-
ter.) Wherefore we exhort him, as well its all the pro-
fesssors, to continue always in this salutary path of reduc
ing more and more the number of those who are to be
admitted to the faculties and philosophy, and particularly
to the faculty of law, which is still in. excess." (A laugh.)
This is followed up by a positive decree that there shall
only be two examinations in the University, that only 150
students shall pass the first, and 80 the second. I am afraid
I have tried the patience of the house in dealing with the
case of these Italian Governments. (Cheers.) Now, let
me say one word as to the yearning of the Italians for poli-
tical unity. 1 am ashamed to say that for a long time I
withheld my assent and approval to these yearnings. I
asked why they were not content to pursue locally their
local reforms. But there is the most conclusive evidence
that the time has now come when Italian unity can bo
no longer regarded as a dream. And I would ask who have
been its main promoters ? My noble friends who sit near
me haee done something. (Cheers.) The influence of Eng-
land is acknowledged, and it is felt by the Italians
that England has done something to promote the great and
noble object they have at heart. (Cheers.) Let us do justice to
our neighbours over the water. (Hear, hear.) We may
criticise the annexation of Savoy. We disapprove the still
stronger case of the annexe ion of Nice. 'We may be lost
in astonishment at the proceedings before Gaeta. But, after
all these deductions have been made—and they are serious
deductions I admit—ltaly acknowledges with one voice
that she owes a heavy debt of gratitude to France. (Cheers.)
But it is not our neighbours nor Victor Emmanuel and
Count Cavour—with regard to whom I wonder at the ex-
travagant compliments paid to them—who have been the
doers of this wondrous work. They have helped to forward
it, and wherever the name of Victor Emmanuel is men-
tioned, it is a charm from ono end of Italy to another,
because he has set that rare example in Italy of a true and
loyal King—(cheers)—l mean a King to whom a com-
pact with a subject is a sacred ging, to be maintained
through life and until death. (Loud cheers.) Count
Cavour will bear any criticism, either hero or elsewhere,
and I do not anticipate the public judgment when I say
that the name of that man will take a place in the list of
those who have deserved well of Italy. (Cheers.) There
are few indeed whose influence on their time or their coun-
try has been greater in its power or more successfully
directed to benefit that country. (Cheers.) But the house
will permit me to say that it is not any of those who have
made Italian usiity what it is—namely, a prospect not far
from being realised. There are others who have more con-
tributed to this unify—those who have resisted all moderate
and reasonable reform—the Kings of Naples, the series of
Popes, the Emperors of Austria. These are hey who leave
ferced forward, and not simply helped forward, the cause
of Italian unity. (LI ear, hear.) How is it possible that
when the subjects of the King of Naples found themselves
put down by military power they should not seek that re-
eurce, which nature herself teaches, of helping themselves,
and becoming stronger by union with others? Hew is it
possible that, when the government of the Pope is carried
on upon the principle that every Roman Catholic through-
out the world is to have a voice in maintaining it, and a
greater voice, indeed, than those who are under the Papal
sceptre—how is it possible the subjects of the Pope should
not seek for strength wherever they can find it to meet such
an unnatural combination ? (Hear, hear.) Above all, it has
been the conduct, the doctrines, and policy of Austria that
have laid broad and deep the foundations of Italian unity.
(Cheers.) When I speak of Austria, I draw a wide dis'inc-
tion between Austria in Italy and Austria beyond it. (Hear,
hear.) Beyond Italy I wish her well with all my heart, and
regard her as the mainstay of the peace and order of Europe.
I do not for a moment doubt that it has been her unhappy
and miserable task to be the instrument of carrying afflic-
tion to a people, not for her own benefit, but with a result
iniperilling her existence as a State. (Hear, hear.) It is
Austria that has made Italian unity. (Cheers.) What
w"As the course taken by Austria on acquiring her Italian
provinces? Did Austria hold that Italy was a mere acci-
dental aggregation of States, each one of which might be
dealt with by itself apart from the others? No, Austria
was the first that denied that doctrine. She denied it in her
alliance all over Italy. She denied it when by arms and
treaties she provided for perfect unity in the spirit and
principle of government from one end of the Peninsula
to the other. (Hear, hear.) IVe know how Aus-
tria succeeded in that policy. She had Piedmont at her
feet, and after the peace drove her into the desired system
by the threat of fresh territorial demands. She had Tus-
cany at her command. She had a treaty with Naples, by
which the King was bound, in the most stringext terms,
to sanction no institution that was not in conformity
with. those of the Austrian dominions, Is it possible to

have- fuller'or mere -atrikinglestirnony to the strong power
of unity pervading the feelings of the Italian people than
in the, fact that Austria based her entire policy on the re-
cognized netessiti of assimilating the whole spirit of go-
vernment in every state in the Peninsula, and of bringing
it under the influence of one moving power? (Cheers.) It
is tiio e —Pr* hostile to Italy who, in the mysterious cours-
means of compelling
eels of Providence, have bccti :h°
the ptoplo to forget thosp local feelings with whim
were Strongly imblipd. Ever' jerilouski every petty tradi-
tion, every !Arrow local View have been merged in one
desire—a &Sire which has arisen from the oirerpowering
necessity of nidial self-presei4ation. (Cheers.) That is
the desire which the people of England have !pen viewing
with united prayers for its prosperity. As it has begtin so
may it go forward. Never were changes so great and im-
portant effected with so little to raise a blush on the cheeks
of those who promoted them. (Hear.) They recall to my
mind the words With Which Mr. Fox greeted the first ap-
pearance of the French revolution, *heti ha said that it was
the most stupendous fabric that had ever been erected on
the basis of human integrity in any age or country of the
world. (Hear.) Sadly was that prophecy falsified by sub-
sequent events from causes which were not then suspected ;
but I believe the words were not far from the truth at the
time when they were spoken; and whether they were or
not, they are the simple and solid truth in their application
to Italy. (Hear.) For long years have we been compelled
to reckon Italy in its divided state, Italy under the friends
of the Austrian, Italy the victim of legitimacy, Italy with
a spiritual sovereignty at its centre, one of the chief sources
of difficulty and disturbance in European politics. We are
now coming to another time. The miseries of Italy have
been the danger of Europe. The consolidation of Italy,
her restoration to national life—if it be the will of God to
grant her that boon—will be, I believe, a blessing as great
to Europe as it is to all the people of the Peninsula. It will
add to the general peace and welfare of the civilized world
a new and solid guarantee. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said he might commence by stating
he was no apologist of the atrocities which had been com-
mitted, or of tho course pursued by Austria. The right
hon. gentleman, in the most solemn manner, endeavoured
to fix the crime of perjury on the King of Naples, but let
them see how the King was met by a powerful party, and
before the Parliament met which was called, the clubs
said they would have a Lower Chamber but no Upper
Homo, and the King had pledged himself by a solemn
oath that there should be two Chambers; one a Chamber
of Peers. The result was that barricades were erected,
and they were aware of what resulted. He (Mr. Maguire)
was no advocate of tyranny, and no opponent of nationali-
ties. From the moment the young King of Naples came to
the throne the noble lord of the Foreign Office became the
schoolmaster of the young King and of the other rulers in
Italy. The hon. member then passed a high eulogy on the
conduct and demeanour of the Pope of Rome, in circum-
stances, he said, of great trial and difficulty, and that the
troubles in the Papal States were not to be attributed to the
badness of the Papal Government. As to Italian freedom,
the first impulse given to itemise from the Vatican. Pius IX
gave his people free institutions on the model of England.
He gave a free Parliament—a free Press—and a lay Gover-
ment, and how was he recompensed F He was told that
these institutions would not work, nor did they—the
institutions broke down, and the Pope himself fell with
them for a time. (Hear, hear.) The Minister of the Pope
was assassinated. Ihe Press became licentious. The hon.
member for Southwark (Mr. Layard) shook his head as if
that was untrue ; but he had the writings of the Press which
Pius IX. had liberated, and that Press had since written in
the spirit of Red Republicanism. He would here refer to
the writings of Montalemb-rt, to show that the Pope had
given liberty to his people, which they received in a spirit
of ingratitude and baseness. The Pope had done much to
give his people liberty ; but his liberality was met with acts
of murder and bloodshed. Would the Pope, after that, be
warranted in making a second experiment of extending the
liberty of his people? He would have been mad, in the
face of such facts, had he done so: The Pope, instead of
being decried for not giving liberty to his people, ought to
be regarded as the apostle of liberty. (Hear.) He believed
the King of Sardinia was a most execrable man, and a man
who would hereafter be regarded as execrable and be
execrated. Garibaldi had acted as a pirate, but he had
proved a successful adventurer. The King of Sardinia had
taken advantage of the action of Garibaldi while it was
useful, and then had basely dismissed him. Everybody
knew what drove Napoleon to Italy. It was the bloody
finger of Orsini pointing from the scaffold to Italy. Let him
beware of persevering in the course which he was now pur-
suing, driven on by the fear of assassination. Let him
beware of his end. It might not prove so glorious even as
that which befel the first Napoleon as prisoner at St.
Helena. The King of Sardinia was an admirable imitator
of King Henry the Eighth, and if he had the same oppor-
tunity he might give as many wives to the axe as the
author of the Reformation. The King of Sardinia had the
morality of a moss trooper and the temperament of the he-
goat. (Laughter.) The unification of Italy was a dream,
and was a dream never to be realised.
Mr. ARTHUR RUSSELL-said that having been some
months in Italy he desired to bear his testimony to the fact
that everything which he heard, saw, and observed fully
bore out the impressions stated to the house by his hon.
friend the member for Southwark. He (Mr. A. Russell)
thought that the affairs of Italy might safely be left in the
hands of Victor Emmanuel; and he felt convinced that
what her Majesty's Government had done with respect to
Italy was in accordance with the sentiments of the whole
British people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MILNES said it appeared to him that the advocates
of the Pope had made a fundamental mistake in confound-
ing questions of property with questions of sovereignty.
He earnestly hoped, however, that the difficulty would be
solved in a way most agreeable to the feeling of the Catho
lic world. The motion they were debating was intended
to impugn the conduct of her Majesty's Government. They
were in favour of non-intervention. When Talleyrand was
asked what non-intervention meant, he said it was a meta-
physical expression which signified intermeddling. (A
laugh.) He hoped the Reline would thoroughly uncle.--
stand that the feelings of the people of England were en-
tirely with them, and that in all their struggles the Italians
might rely upon our sympathies. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—There is no person who feels more
acutely than myself the responsibility which attaches to a
person who speaks on a great question like that which now
occupies the attention of the house. Every word that is
pronounced in debate here is echoed at the uttermost
parts of the earth ; and, no matter how insignificant may be
the individual, his words contribute in some measure to the
effect produced. (Hear, hear.) What I shall now say will,
I fear, be unpalatable to many here ; but not holding any
office under the Crown, and not being connected with any
party, I give expression to my own opinions alone, and let
the world judge what they are worth. (Cheers.) It ap-
pears to me that many gentlemen who have addressed this
house have mistaken the object with which we are now
discussing this question. What we want to learn is not so
much what has occurred in the past as what the future
shall produce. We want to know how the Government
of this country ought hereafter to act concerning Italy.
To the extent that the answer to this question depends on
what has passed we are justified in referring to the past ;
but so much lies in the future that we may well pass by
the petty discussions with which we have been enter-
tained, leaving to future history the disputes between the
followers of Garibaldi and the followers of the Pope.
We are here as legislators to determine in what way the
great influence of England shall be directed in coming
years. I shrill look on this question simply as an English
one. (Hear, hear.) I believe that what is for the interest
of England is for the interest of the world. (Hear, hear.)
Her influence is so great and so good, that what conduces
to her welfare conduces to the welfare of the world ; and
therefore I say, I address myself to this great question
simply as an Englishman. Now, I want to know what
ought to be the policy of England, and for that purpose I
ask myself what ought we to wish Italy to be, and what
are the steps that we ought to take in order to bring Italy
to that condition. lat once confess that lam for what is
now to be considered an United Italy. That is an expres-
sion which I know excites discontent in some minds, but,
when I come to describe what I mean, perhaps it may not

be so offensive. I want to see Italy under one Govern.
ment from the bottom of the Peninsula up to the Mincio.
I want it not to be held by any foreign Power, but to be
wholly Italian. (Hear, hear.) Entertaining this view, I
have to ask myself of what nations Italy is composed, and
what are the nations round and about Italy. I find in the
north-west a groat Power—namely France; I find in the
north-east another great Power—Austria ; and still further
east another great European Power—Russia. All these
countries were to be borne in mind in considering the
state of Italy. What are the hopes which ought to exist in
any rational mind of accomplishing an united Italy? To
the present hour that is a consummation which has never
been effected. Excepting under the leaden:despotism of the
Empire of Rome, Itaty never could be considered in any
way as one. Under the Republic she was many ; and in the
great days of her existence there were separate Powers
throughout Italy. Before, then, we can hope for an united
people, we have to conquer all the feelings of municipal
rivalry. Bnik is there no other disturbing force? We have
been told, with all that vehement eloquence which so dis-
tinguishes the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that France
has done great things for Italy. (Hear, hear.) Yes; Franco
has done great things for Italy; may not France do great
things for herself? (Hear, hear.) Has not France ad-

vanced towards the crests of the mountains which surround
Italy, and can she not, when she chooses, pourher soldiers
down on the plains, and put an end to your expectations of

an united Italy ? (Hear, hear.) At the present moment
is there not a wedge driven between the north and
the south by 40,000 French quartered at Rome?
(Hear, hear.) You have to get rid of them. You have
also to create some counterpoise to the power of the

Emperor of the French before you can expect, not

merely a united Italy, but a self-governed Italy--one

which shall be a nation for itself, and not a vassal of
France. (Hear.) It has not bean my fate to appear in the
character of ono who landed the Emperor of the French.
(Hear, and a laugh.) I have to look at his conduct with
regard to Italy—and in this house, where to-night we have
certainly beard some very remarkable statements and some
very hard language had been used—l hope I may be per-
mitted to express in respectful terms my opinion—even
though it should affect so great a potentate as the Emperor
of the French--I have no faith in the Emperor of the French
(Hear, hear.) I do not believe there will be an united and
independent Italy. And I warn the two noble lords who
sit on the Treasury Bench, in order that they may not be
tools in his hand in making Italy his vassal, and in increas-
ing the power of France, which is even now imminent on
her border, which is hanging on the crests of the Alps, and
which has 40,000 men in garrison at Rome. I warn them
that they may not be instrumental in uniting Italy to
Franee, and thus increase the power of France to domi-
neer over Europe. Mark how you step; be very cautious
how'you tread, lest you should be led into that path. I
pass now from the north-west to the north-east. The Ita-
lians hate the Germans. When France ruled Italy, the Ita-
lians hated the French. (Hear, hear.) It was a very com-
mon opinion now-a-days, and it is one which the French
Emperor has proved, that we are to listen to what is called
universal suffrage, and to be guided by popular opinion as
to the governors of States. Is England in a condition to
acquiesce in that opinion ? Does England adopt that prin-
ciple ? Shall we give up the seven islands in the mouth of
the Adriatic? (Hear, hear.) Uwe listen to the hon. member
for Dungarvan shall we be able to adopt this course with
regard to Ireland ? Should we have been able to do so in
Vanadtt some years ago amid we Laye been 41)1e to do

so in India not ninny months ago ? (Hears) I say, therefore,
this is not a principle that can be adopted by English poli-
ticians. The only parts of Italy held by Germany are Venetia
and the Quadrilateral. I press on the nolsle lord opposite and
the noble lord at the head of the Government—and I do so in
consequence of what was said by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer—the (Unger of the course they are pursuing in en-
deavouring to exclude Austria from her dominion in Venetia.
(Oh, oh.) I am much accustomed to that dismal sound—
(laughies)—but I must have something more than that
sonorous " Oh must have an answer. And what lam
asking for, and what I am endeavouring to discover, is some
counterpoise to the power of France—(hear, hear)—some
connterpoieC to het interference in Italy, which shall pre-
vent the Italian people from becoming the slaves and vas-
sals 9f France. Considering both the interests of England
and Italy, I say it is our duty to prevent the expulsion of
Austria from 'Venetia at. present. I know this is an un-
popular view. (Hear.) Clh, I have no doubt of it. ( Laughter.)
forward unpopular
It has been my fate very often to
bring
ideas in this house ; but the s thing is, that what was
popular When
.I first mentioned it, ha; become the creed of
sficular case.
this house. (Laughter.) I will mention a pa. ^fore
The hon. member for Leeds is laughing, but it was
his time. (Renewed laughter.) In tne rem 1835 I made
certain propositions with regard to our colonial rule, and 1
recollect the time when I was considered a traitor and not an
Englishman for doing so. I want to know whether there
is a single word which I then uttered, a single demand
which I then made for the colonies, which has not been
granted—(hear, hear)—and whether you have not adopted
in your colonial policy the very rule which I recommended,
and which was so unpopular at the time (Hear, hear.)
When such a change has taken place on an important
point in the views of the noble lord the Minister for Foreign
Affairs, may I not hope that—unlike the member for
Brighton, who meets me with a sonorous " Oh !"—he
will listen to my arguments, and, possibly, to adopt them,
We have made an alliance with France; and I will ask any
man who has studied the history or the geography of Europe
whether our natural continental ally is not Austria, But
it is said that Austria is at the head of the despotism of
Europe. AustriTwas at the head of the despotism of Eu-
rope ; but Austria is now a constitutional Government.
(Laughter.) There is a great prophet come among us, and
that prophet is the member for Southwark. He laughs at
the idea; but I want to know whether our conduct to Ire-
land before 1829 was not quite as bad as that of Austria to
her subjects. In 1829 we changed our policy, and from
that time to this our policy has been different. I believe
Ireland is well governed now; but I believe that our policy
before 1829 was bad, was cruel, was unjust. Well, then
we changed, and Austria has changed, and the Constitution
which she has granted to her people is as liberal as our
own. (A loud cry of " Hear" from Hr. White, the mem-
ber for Brighton, which caused considerable laughter.) I
am rot a nervous man or I do not know what might hare
been the effect on me of that very melodious cry of the hon.
member. (Renewed laughter.) I say that on paper the
Constitution of Austria is as liberal as ours, and what is it
that makes me believe that that policy will be persevered
in ? The interests of Austria—the interests of the house
of Hapsburg. If Austria attempted to depart from it—if
she were to go back to the old days of 1849—the house of
Hapsburg would disappear from Germany, the Austrian
throne would be overturned, the whole empire would be split
up into parts, and we should see the various nations around
enriched by her dissolution: (Hear, hear.) No one knows
better that this is the case than the leading men of Aus-
tria. They have told me so. (Hear, hear.) The policy of
England ought to be to support Austria, because she has no
interests opposed to those of England. The hon. member
for Southwark talks of the Austrians—the brutal Austrians.
(Hear, hear.) I want to know, when you set soldiers
against a besieged town, is there any country in Europe
whose arms is not brutal ? What do you say of Badajos—
what do you say of St. Sebastian? I say that if you put
soldiers before a town, and they take it by assault, there is
no crime that is not committed, no brutality that is not per-
petrated, nothing shocking to humanity that does not oc-
cur; and among the nations that ought to blush by reason
of such deeds is England. There is no man who hears me
speak but does not know that from youth upwards. I have
always been called a thoroughgoing John. Bull. (A laugh.)
I am not a big John Bull, but I am a John Bull. My sym-
pathies are with my country ; and I believe I have all the
prejudices, all the peculiarities, and all the faults of my
countrymen. (Hear, hear, from Mr. White.) I think I
have read of some Roman orators who were accustomed to
have fighters by their side. Others had persons to make
gestures. The hon. member's interruptions remind me of
the services performed by those assistants—(laughter)—but
I am pretty well hardened, and I can bear these things.
I was asking the house to listen to say argument in respect
of our policy towards Austria, when I was interrupted by
the hon. member, and going back I wish to remind the
house that the Austria of the present time is not the Aus-
tria of the past. All our interests are coincident with hers.
She exports corn, wool, wine, and hides—all which we de-
sire—but she does not export manufactures. (Hear.) And
be it remarked that Austria has no desire to compete with
us, not merely in commerce, but in war. (Hear.) She
builds no ships to be the rival of our navy. (Hear.) She
does not keep the world alive and disturbed by her aggres-
sive policy. (Hear, hear.) We have made friends, or at-
tempted to make friends, of those who did all these things.
Why should we not address ourselves to that great Power
of the Continent which would be our friend in difficult
times? Besides, Austria lies between Russia and Western
Europe; and depend upon it the words of the First Napo-
leon were prophetic—" Europe will be either Republican or
Cossack." The time will come when the attempt will be
made to make her Cossack ; the tim3 is now hovering over
us when we aro threatened with an alliance between our ally
and Russia. (Hear, hear.) lam now speaking frankly to
this house, and I am speaking words which I think the
noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs will say are
worthy of consideration. An alliance between France and
Russia is threatened—is predicted—from day to day, and
let me tell the house that such an alliance is not for our
benefit. (Hear, hear.) We shall have to cast about us for
friends, and I think the friend on whom we ought to rely,
and on whom we can rely, is Austria. And let me tell the
hon. gentleman the member for Southwark that the Aus-
trian nation have feelings which lead them to wish for the
good will of this country. Their children are brought up
to esteem and love English literature, and let me tell the
house that that is a mighty link between two nations.
(Hear, hear.) You cannot go into a house in Austria in
which, if there be means to accomplish it, there is not a
teacher of the English language. The literature of Eng-
land is a literature which they all admire, which they
all love; and let me tell the house that from that litera-
ture, which has been read throughout Austria, the
desire for freedom and self-government has arisen through-
out that country. (Hear, hear.) This has not been
done in an hour, or a day, nor in the life of a man, but
gradually the Austrians have acquired English desires,
and our public men ought to look to Austria as a friend
in time of aggression. They would find in her a willing
protector; for a protector we may need against the agres-
Eon of Russia or France. But, returning to Italy, do not
the Italians want some counterpoise ? The member for
Southwark talks about Charles VIII. Did he not go from
the Alps to Rhegium ? What is to prevent Napoleon 111.
from doing the same thing? Will any man tell me that
40,000 Frenchmen might not march from one end of Italy
to the other ? Does any man believe, I ask, that the fili-
bustering—to use an American term—army of Garibaldi
would have been successful in Italy if they had had some
regiments of French soldiers to oppose them ? (Hear.)
I admit that great things have been done by Garibaldi;
but he does not owe his success, as the hon. member for
Dundalk asserts, to Victor Emmanuel, or Count Cavour, or
the noble lord opposite. It was not these who did it, it was
the bad rule of Italy. (Hear, hear.) When Garibaldi
landed on the territory of Naples, with a few hundred men,
he found a large army before him. If that army had been
faithful and brave could Garibaldi have succeeded ? No ;
but there was in the Neapolitan people a feeling of hatred
and detestation of their monarch, and a determination, on the
first chance offered them, to throw off his odious rule. (Hear,
heir.) Garibaldi succeeded because the rulers of Italy were
untie, to govet u--- (itcai) that is the secret of his success.
Had be on his landing been opposed by Austrian troops he
would not have succeeded ; and if ho attempts to attack
Venice, with only the same means with which he attacked
Messina, I prophecy that he will be hanged in a week.
What I state is perhaps unwelcome; but the truth is often
unwelcome. And if what I have said to night is in time
to have any effect, I believe that effect will be wholly in
favour of England. (Hear, hear.) Her power, her do-
minion of the sea, her influence over men's mind and intel-
lect are her greatness and her glory. To maintain this
position is now in the hands of the two noble lords oppo-
site. They are the rulers of the destinies of this great coun-
try. -On their heads will rest the responsibility for what
they do. If they make Italy merely the vassal of France
they will have done no good for England or for the world.
But if Italy is made really free, independent, and united—
free from spiritual as well as temporal despotism—they
will have done that for which their names will be hailed by
posterity, and they will Jeservo and receive the thanks o
the whole world.

Mr. S. A. BEA UMONT defended the policy of the Go-
vernment ; it had acted on the true principle of non-inter-
vention, and he had never heard it stated how it could
have acted otherwise. Its policy had been truly national ;
and at the same time had been to the advantage of Italy.
Mr, MONSELL had never heard a foreign debate in that
house involving great national interests in which so little
reference was made to the great principles of international
law as had been shown by those gentlemen who defended
the policy of the Government. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and
learned member for Marylebone had endeavoured to make
out that the revolution in the Neapolitan States was pro-
moted by the great majority of the people; but he main-
tained, on the contrary, that the Sardinian Government was
most unpopular among the Neapolitan people, and that its
only supporters were to be found among those to whom
places had been given. (Bear, hear.) As to the Abruzzi

no difference of opinion could exist, for then an insurrec-
tion had been vigorously carried on by the peasantry, and
a large Piedmontese army was required there to keep the
people in order. (Hear, hear.) He did not say this from
any want of sympathy for the Italian people, but because it
was his solemn conviction that the liberties of Italy would
never be accomplished by any attempt to unite people who
differed more from each other than did the Preach and
English people. (Hear, hear.) He desired to see the Ita-
lians rise from the depths of degradation to which they had
sunk, but that could only be accomplished by allowing each
people, after their own kind, to develope its own civilisation.
(Hear.) With the views of the hcn. member for Sheffield
he had no sympathy whatever. There was a strong feeling
on the part of the Italian people against the system of Aus-
trian rule. (Hear.) That system was established by the
arrangement made in 1815, qnd was among the chief causes
of the misery of Italy. (Hear.) The present apparent unani-
mity in Italy had risen almost entirely from that cause.
But on the other hand those were mistaken who imagined
that the national feeling of the different Italian States was
not strong. It might sleep for a while, or be crushed, but
it would most certainly rise again. With regard to the
speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), he
would ask what it amounted to, considered in relation to
the foreign policy of the Government. (Hoar' hear.) He
described the trials that had taken place at Modena and
scenes that occurred during the Austrian occupation of
Bologna, but these were matters that had no direct bearing
on the question before them. He remembered well the
doctrine put forth by the late Sir R. Peel in the last speech
he delivered, viz., that we ought to treat the smallest States
with the same consideration that we gave to the most
powerful. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend in his
vehament denunciations frightened gentlemen on the
benches opposite when he said that those who defended the
King of Naples had more courage than the King of Naplcs
had. (Hear.) With reference to what had fallen from the
hon. member for Tavistock as to the feeling of the Italian
people regarding the Roman Government, he must say that
his experience differed from that of the hon. gentleman.
At the end of the year he was at Rome. It was the custmE
of the Pope at that season to go to one of the churches of
Rome about a mile and a half distant. Ho (Mr. Monsoll)

was present on the last occasion, and, though accus-
tomed to Irish enthusiasm when their affections were
called forth in any way, never had he seen such a
demonstration of affection as was shown towards the Pope
by all classes of the people who crowded the streets. e

would say ono or two words on the question of inter-'
national law. At the time of the invasion of the Roman
States by the Sardinian soldiers the French Emperor
sent a telegraphic message from Marseilles to the Duke
do Gramont, saying that the French Government would
oppose the entrance of the Sardinian troops, and
that message was sent from Rome to Ancona.
General Cialdini said that he understood the matter better
—ho knew what was the feeling of the Emperor of the
French, because he had had an interview with him. On
the 22d of October M. Thouvenel sent a despatch to the dif-
ferent Courts of Europe, explaining that it was true that
such an interview took place, and stating that what General
Cialdini said on that occasion on the part of the Cabinet of
Turin was that if great disturbances occurred in the Roman
States it would be necessary for the Piedrnontese to enter
those States, in order to protect the temporal Government
of the Pope, and to go on into the Neapolitan territory to
fight a battle against the revolutionists. In spite of that de-
spatch, which he was surprised did not appear in the blue
hook, the noble lord had given his approval to the course
which was being pursued by the Sardinian Government.
He asked any gentleman whether there ever was in the
world an act of greater treachery than that which the Go •
eeenment of Sardinia had committed ? (Hear, hear.) Such
7nduct_lust _lust be shocking to the mind of every honourable
had received the approbation of her Ma-
jenesBtnYisbnOtTovsteilrinLent.
At she close of the second night's
Lord J. RUS'SBLL—
finis Committee of Supply,
debateit is
v e
ruyp odni
ffit
ue
lquestionsay
whato fg e ns
gthe real qtit;,e don which hon.
gentlemen upon different sides of the House In: ve raised •
Upon this occasion I can perfectly understand that gu:ttle•
men, either in opposition or supporters of the Government,
may take the Ministry to task for their foreign policy, and
may say, an they have a perfect right to say, " Before we
go into committee to give any supply to her Majesty, we
must have explanations with regard to the policy which
the Government have pursued." But the hon. member
for King's County, the hon. and learned member for Dun-
dalk, and my right hon. friend who has just spoken, have
in fact raised a totally different issue. They have raised
the issue in the first place whether the Government of the
King of Sardinia is a better Government than that of the
late King of Naples, or that of the Pope ; and in the second
pl see whether, seeing that in their opinion the Government
of the King of Sardinia is not so good as that of the Pope
or of the King of Naples, her Majesty's Government were
justified in giving support to the King of Sardinia against
the Pope and the King of Naples. To the whole of that
question I might answer "Your representation of the policy
of her Majesty's Government is an entirely mistaken one."
I might even grant the first proposition. I might say "The
Italians are extremely wrong to prefer the Government of
the King of Sardinia ; it is, no doubt, perfectly clear, you
have made it clear to demonstration, that the Government of
the Pope is much more enlightened, and the Government of
Naples far more humane than is the Government of the King
of Sardinia ; " but after all I should say that does not touch
thepolicy of her Majesty's Government, whichhas been that
we would not interfere by force to prevent the Italians from
chosing the Government under which they would live.
(Hear, hear.) That has been, and is, the policy of the Go-
vernment, and not a policy of supporting the King of Sar-
dinia against any other sovereign or State whatever. My
hon. friend who has just addressed us has, indeed, referred
to the approbation which I expressed in the name of her
Majesty's Government of the entrance of the Sardinian
troops into the States of the Pope, and into those of the
Ding of Naples. For that, no doubt, we are responsible,
but that, again, I say, is a question fe the Italian people
themselves to decide; and that is what I sadin the des-
patch which has been so often alluded to. If the p‘?oPle of
Naples preferred, as they evidently did, to be governed
the King of Sardinia, and to be relieved from their existing
Governments, it appears to me, looking to numerous pre-
cedents in the history of Europe that they were justified in
making that election, and that we should not have been
justified either in expressing disapprobation or in prevent-
ing them from changing their governments. The right hon.
gentleman refers to Belgium, and says, " Would you allow
French troops to enter Belgium ?" Why, we did allow
French troops to enter Belgium, and not only that, but we
made it a matter of convention that they should enter that
country. The people of Belgium had risen against their
sovereign, with whom we were bound by every treaty of
alliance; they had broken the Treaties of Paris and of
Vienna, by which all Europe was bound, and it was be-
cause they had done this that we allowed a French army
to go into Belgium in order to prevent the sovereign from
enforcing the dominion against which they had rebelled.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore this is not a matter without a pre-
cedent. And, as I have mentioned this instance, look how
it bears upon another question which the hon. member for
Dungarvan has raised to night. He said the Government
of this country had such a hatred against the Pope that
they are ready to support any persons who will overthrow
his dominion. They cannot bear the Pope, and therefore,
because there was an insurrection against him, they imme-
diately took the part of the rebels. My first answer to that
must be that all the persons, that all the great bodies who
were fighting in Italy were Roman Catholics. (Hear, hear.)
There is no Protestant Power which is directly concerned
in the question at issue there. (Hear, hear.) It is a con-
test of Roman Catholics against Roman Cathblics, not on
any matter of faith, but upon a matter of temporal power
and government. (Hear, hear.) But in the next place, I
shall reply that, in the instance to which I just referred,we
making myself responsible, but more particularly my noble
friend near me (Lord Palmerston), who is supposed to be in-
spired by the evil one quite as much as myself—(a laugh)—
took the part of a Roman Catholic people, who,Wislied to
establish Roman Catholic institutions, against a Prolhstant
Sovereign who was accused of making them too Pr4tant,
and of attempting on account of his prejudice in favour of
the Protestant religion to overthrow their Roman Catholic
institutions. Well, then, I think that that accusation, at
least, will fall to the ground. I will now touch upon the
question, which, I must say, I think is hardly one for the
House of Commons, but which yet is the question to which
we have devoted two nights' debate—viz., whether the
people of Italy have been right or wrong in overturning
the Government of the King of Naples, and that of the
Pope in the greater part of his dominions. Upon that sub-
ject I must say that, after all I have heard, it seems to me
that Governments more abominable and more degrading to
the people than those of the King of Naples have never
existed in the world. (Hear, hear.) Look at what the
young King who has lost his throne was led by evil advice
to do. We have lately heard a good deal said against the
King of Sardinia on account of a certain pension paid to
the mother of one Milano, who attempted to assassinate the
late King of Naples. That, at all events, is no fault of the
King of Sardinia, because his lieutenant at once abolished
that pension. When the late King of Naples came to the
throne, he found a number of persons who had been put in
prison because they were supposed to be the accomplices in
this crime, or to have some knowledge of the attempt of that
soldier who endeavoured to al as3l.3in. Tt was repre-
sented to the King, and by the English Ambassador among
others; and a petition was also presented to the King by
the persons thus imprisoned, setting forth that they were
altogether innocent of the crime laid to their charge. They
said, " If there is any 'evidence, bring us to trial; let wit-
nesses prove that we are guilty, and we are ready to submit
to any punishment the Court may decree." But the Go-
vernment of the King of Naples said "No ; we will not
bring you to trial." The persons accused replied, "Jf you
will not bring us to trial, let us go free." " No," said the
Government; " It is possible you may be guilty, although
there is no evidence to prove it. We shall endanger the
safety of the King if we let loose those who may possibly
be guilty, and you must therefore stay in prison for the
rest of your lives for this imaginary crime." (Hear, hear.)
That was the way in which justice was administered in the
kingdom of Naples. Take another instance. As;my right
hon. friend stated, the whole kingdom of Naples was go .
verned by the police. There were a number of persons,
principally of the middle orders, who were called " sus-
pected." They were not allowed passports to go to the next
town; they were not allowed to leave the country, or to
bring up their sons to the learned professions. If one of
these persons said, " I have a clever son who has a disposi-
tion for the law," or another said, " I wish to send my son to
a medical college," they were not allowed to do so. About
100,000 persons were thus watched by the police, and were
not allowed the use of those liberties which the subjects of
the greatest despotisms are permitted to enjoy. At length
a decree appeared declaring that this surveillance was at an
end. But the Minister of Police sent a secret order to the
police that these persons were still to be watched, and were
not to be allowed to do the things previously forbidden
without the matter being reported to him. That shows
the perfidy of the Government. (Hear, hear.) They were
not only tyrannical and destroyed the social life of the
country, but they concealed what they were doing. Well,
these things naturally sank into the minds of the people,
and' when they saw the opportunity of freeing themselves
from such a torment it was no wonder they gladly availed
themselves of it. (Cheers.) I now come to the case of
the Pope and the Legations. The very worst character that
a Government can have is that they neglect the things
they ought to do, and do that which they ought not to do.
(A laugh.) Well, that is exactly the fault of the Roman
Government. The first thing a Government ought to do
is to nrotect life and property. The Roman Government
afforded no protection to life and property. A man could
not travel in the Romagna in safety. One gentleman told
me he was about to sit down to dinner in his country-
house, when a band of robbers carried off everything in the
house, and he determined—wis3ly, as I think—never to live
in his country house any more. Some young men who
committed offences against ecclesiastical discipline were
punished, but the only remedy against robbers and mur-
derers was that military tribunal to which my right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has alluded, and
which, evil and oppressive as it might be, was only an indi-
cation of the insincerity that prevailed. With regard to
those things which the Government of the Pope did do, one
of the greatest abuses a Government can commit is to
prevent a man from using those faculties that are given to
him, and interfering with the freedom of religious worship.
That was the whole business of the Roman Government.
Every care was taken that men should not use those facul-
ties which God gave them, and should not worship
according to the dictates of their conscience. Thus the
Roman Government forbade that with which a Govern -
ment had nothing to do, and did not do that to which
the people were entitled. (Cheers.) If these were the
faults of the Government, what wonder that the people
should at once and gladly receive another Government ?
(Hear.) I should like my right hon. friend (Mr. Monsell)
to account for the fact that when the Austbien garrison left
Bologna there was no question about carrying on the Go-
vernment on behalf of the Pope. The cardinal who go-
verned there, as the representative of the Pope, left Bologna
as soon as the Austrian garrison took its departure. There
were no Sardinian troops, or, se far as I know, Sardiniau
agents in Bologna, but there was a general resolution on
the part of the people to declare that the Papal Government
was at an end and was dissolved. (Hear.) In like manner,
every vie knew; that it the 'reueh troops were to leave

Rome exactly the same consequences weed ensue, and th
Government of the Pope would be at an end. (Cheers.)
Then, the real question is not whether IJee Sardinian Go-
vernment is preferable or not to these Governments, but,
these Governments being thus distasteful, not to say ab-
horrent, to the people, was it any Lusines a of the English
Government to say, " However much you detest your Go-
vernment and prefer to live under the Tiring of Sardinia,
however much you may wish for Italian unity, we, the
English Government, are determined to oppose your wishes
and to employ the force of England to prevent you from ob-
taining your independence ?" Was that a course that any
English Minister would take, or that this house would ap-
prove ? (Hear.) It is not necessary to prove that the King:
of Sardinia's is a good Government, but I see with great,
pleasure
that an Italian Parliament is assembled, that per--
sons duly- elected by the provinces of Italy have taken their
seats, and deist they have met to carry on a constitutional
Government, isa which freedom of conscience and political
liberty may be Completely enjoyed. (Cheers.) The hon..
gentleman the men,'bee for Sheffield says we ought to con•
-
sider what is our policy". and ought to prevent the expulsion.
of Austria from Venetia. 'There, again, is a question for the e
very glad to see that Power
people themselves. I should s'
-
maintained, because I quite agl :° With my right hon. friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer e that during many con
tests in Europe for two centuries 1;,,,-t we have often eon-
tended in the same cause, and against she preponderance of
other Powers, with Austria. I agree wilt,. him that Austria
is a great, regular, and conservative Power t>'the middle of
Europe, that tends to preserve many of the political and
social advantages which Europe enjoys. With regard to
Venetia, it is true that Austria has adopted a representative
constitution. It is for those who are summoned as repre-
sentatives of the province of Austria to decide whet their
policy shall be ; but I believe it will be found so difficult to
retail; the affections of the people of Venetia, and that the
Atietriais garrisons are so costly, chat it is not for the int.'-
rest of Austria to coetinue making such heavy sacrifices as'
the preservation of Venetia requires; I think, therefore,
that it would be better for Austria herself that Venetia
should be governed according to her own wishes and aspi •
rations. But I can never lay Gown the principle, as the
hon. gentleman seems to wish, that this country should go
to war for the purpose of maintaining the Austrian power
in Venetia.
Mr. ROEBUCK said ho never wished that war should
be declared, but that persons coming from other parts of
Europe should be prevented from attacking the Austrian.
dominions.
Lord J. RUSSELL—With regard to a war of .aggression
that is a different matter, upon which when the tiene comes
it will be sufficient to enter. The hon. member for Lime-
rick says that the people of Italy destest one another so
much that they never can form one country. It is for
them to decide that. If their mutual hatreds are so great
they will not fag to find expression in the Parliament of
Turin, and separation will probably be the result., But,
having known stomething both of Spain and Italy, I should
say that the hatred which exists in Spain between one pro-
vince and another, between Castilla and Andalusia, or• be--
tween Valencia and Arragon, is far more bitter than that.
which is to be found in Italy. Yet Bpain has been go-
verned for a long period by one monarch; and any jealousy
or dislike that may exist between the people of neighbour-
ing provinces has never beer' urged as a ground for consti-
tuting a Federal State or of sOparating one province from
another. If the people of Italy- can get over the jerelousies
and dislikes, let them form one united people. (Cheers.)
Unfortunately there are objections to that course from very
opposite quarters and of the most opposite character.
France is disposed to think that it would be much better
for her to have a number of weak tepterate States in Italy
than one strong State exercising a pressure on the South as
unpleasant as the pressure on the North. Germany, again,
fears that an united Italy would be sure to take part against
her with France. Now, it seems to me to be rather hard
on the Italians, who have not yet constituted an united
Italy, and aro free to choose their policy, to bring such ob-
jections against them, and to assume that they will adopt,
this or that disagreeable line of policy. I believe that
when they are united they will look solely to the interests
of Italy, and will go to war for or against France
..or
perhaps remain neutral, just as may seem most beneficial
jejr their country. (Hear, hear.) Although I hold that
we wt re not only at liberty to interfere ourselves, but were
bound se our influence to prevent others from interfer-
ing in d
to
the :2
soars of Rely, I do not disguise the great osatis-
faction I feel sit the prospect which is opening before that
country. If it be a crimC to wish that the people of Italy
should be free to use the intollect with which it has pleased
Providence to endow them, and to tread, as • our own
nation has done, the path of constitutional liberty, then it
is a crime of which I must plead guilty. (Hear, hear.) I
should heartily rejoice in that rs
emelt. It appears to me
to be no obstacle to their progress t..l2at in no former period
of history has Italy been united. lt, was because Italy
was disunited, because three centuries ag,;', a great Power
found it expedient to break the country up into separate
States, that Italian independence was destroyed. What is
more natural thanahat the Italians should say, ". Pur di-
visions have ruined our independence, let us try If our
union will not restore it ?" (Hear, hear.) I shall not enter
into all the particular accusations which have been made
against myself on this subject. They are of the mast con-
flicting character. The hon. member for King's County
charges me with extreme partiality for Austria ; the hen.
baronet the member for Dundalk charges mo with a degree
to see Austria dismembered. Austria occupies' a most;
difficult position at this moment, but it is rey earnest.
wish, as it should be of every Englishman, that she
may so reconcile the various parts of her monarchy, as
to satisfy the wishes of her subjects, and maintain her
place as a great Power in. Europe. That, however, is also
a question in which we cannot interfere ; and it must de-
pend on the wisdom of the Austrian Government whe-
ther within the next three months, that State re-esta-
blishes her position, or whether she takes a step that may
be injurious, if not fatal, to the recovery of her influence in
Europe. (Hear, hear,) I rejoice to observe the strength
lately acquired by constitutional parties in almost every
country of Europe. After a long interval, we see in the
Senate of France a revival of liberty of speech which is
really quite delightful. One gentleman with a great historic
name, the Marquis de Larochejaqueleia, has delivered a
speech abusing the policy of England, bettl perused it with
no less pleasure on that account, being satisAed that free dis-
cussion must, in the long run, after, no doubt, much bicker-
ing and mutual accusation, tend to promote greater confi-
dence and amity between the two nations. (Hear.) In Aus-
tria and Hungary representative assemblies have been inem-
moned. In Prussia there have been signs of greater indepen-
dence in a Chamber which has hitherto seemed a mockery ei
a representative assembly. (Hear.) I hope that the unfortu-
nate occurrence which has lately taken place at Warsaw will'
lead to the recovery by the Poles of some of the ancient pri-
vileges of which they were deprived after the events of
1831, On almost every side, indeed, we witness the progress
of constitutional liberty; and an ancient and classic land of
freedom like our own cannot but rejoice in the success of
principles to which we are so much attached. My object,
as one of the Ministers of her Majesty's Government, has
been to follow, not a party policy, but a national policy.
(Hear.) Although my administration has elicited a good
deal of criticism from the party in Opposition, I do not
understand that they venture to condemn it ; and I trust.
and believe that the great majority of my countrymen ap
prove a policy which is favourable to the liberty of Italy, and
to the interests of Europe. (Cheers.)
Mr, WHITE remarked that he had ventured to cry
" Oh, oh," when the hon. and learned member for Sheffield
was eulogising Austria, upon which the hon. gentleman had
reminded the house how he had always sympathised with the
oppressed and among others, with the Canadians. He
could only say that the population of Venetia were much
more deserving of sympathy than the Canadians, and that
he could not compliment the hon. and learned member on
his "latest style," to borrow a phrase from art, as befog
his best. It had been proclaimed in the city that the hon.
member for Sheffield would return to this country the
eulogist of Austria, because he was received in gilded
saloons by Archdukes and Archduchesses—(laughter)—and
it was rumoured that the hon. member had come back from
Vienna with a very lucrative contract in his pocket. (Oh,
oh.) In reply to the statement teat it would be a material
advantage to this country to uphold the dominion of Austria
in Italy, he must observe that Italy united under one
monarch, with a moderate tariff—(laughter)—would be,
with the exception of the United States, the beat customer
of Great Britain.
Mr. LINDSAY then moved the adjournment of the de-
bate, but withdrew the motion on being informed by Lord
Palmerston that he would have An opportunity before a
vote was taken with respect to the construction of ships
and the expenditure of the dockyards, to propose the mo-
tion of which he had given notice on those subjects.
Mr. HENNESSY explained that the members he -had
given respecting the eleetions in Italy were drawn from an.
official document.

In reply to Sir S. NORTHCOTE,
Lord PALMERSTON said that on Monday the Go-
vernment would wish the numbers both of the army and
the navy to be voted in Committecof Supply, in order to
form the foundation for the Mutiny Bills.
The house resolved into Committee of Supply, pro forenal
and immediately afterwards resumed.
The Qualification for Offices Bill was read a third time,
and passed.
The house adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

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