The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-01 00:00:00

• •
basis that' there was not to be any great redistribution of
seats. But could any one suppose that if you were geiing to
add 300,000 voters to the counties they would be long con-
tent without a redistribution of seats ? It was impossible to
suppose such a thing. If the constituencies. were the same
and the quality of voters the same, and the ten millions had
only 160 representatives, and the seven millions 330, could
such a strange stare of things ex:st for a Moment? He might
he met from the Treasury bench by the argument that he
must not complain because the comities had always hail a
less number of representatives than bosoughe and the t that
was the old state of things. He d:d not compfein, but if the
answer was a good one, what became of the equality of the
£lO franchise, for there had always been a du:bre:ice betwc
en
the county and lorough voters? If you created equality of
voting, it was impossible to -keep of;: redistribution of seats,
and you must give the counties their just share of the re re-
sentatien. The noble lcrd the Secretary for India said that
the Government bill was just the thing to smooth down that
difficulty. If so, it ow can those who were averse to a redis-
tribution of seats think the measure so good a one ? What
would became of the exist:nee voters in counties ? It could
not be said exactly how it would work; but it was clear that
the present constituencies would be swamped. If you
brought in at once a number of new voters equal to three to
four, it was clear that the old voters would stand in a dif-
ferent position to that in which they now stood. He came
now to the extension of the suffrage in boroughs The ques-
tion had been argued on that the (Ministeriel) side of the
house, and the hon. and learned n:ember for Cambridge
borough bad given a di ;tint definition of what was in-
tended when he said that we should no longer have a
rough and clumsy mode ofletting in people to the franchise,
that the old-fashioned system of letting them in in the gross
was no longer to exist; the principle must be that of selec-
tion. The hon. and learned member gave a curious illustra-
tion of the principle. He said when a man was tried for his
life, or for his character, which was dearer than his life, by
a jury, for any such purpose any 12 men were sufficient,
but when you come to the more responsible matter of elect-
ing a member of Parliament, by the' 19-1000th part of the
electors of Marylebone or the Tower Hamlets, you could
not trust to the same rough procesi, but you must have the
principle of selection. It was said that you would get the
best of the working classes by the new franchises proposed.
He (Mr. Henley) wished to examine them, and see how vott
would get the best of that class. It was not pretended .(hie
was not speaking of that portion of the working classes who
were humbler than those who had £lO houses)-:it was not
asserted—that the franchise, which took in fOters, and
lawyers, and schoolmasters, would affect 'ft Oa—they
were the gents of the collection. (Hear, and a Titer.) The
next class were the lodgers. Ho did not apprehend that men
who paid Bs. a week for lodgings, or ss. a week for unfur-
nished rooms would be of a lower class than £lO house-
holders. Then, the only thing which remained was the sav-
ings bank franchise They were told that you would not
reduce the £lO franchise on account *if the anomaly which
would arise; but he should like to know how the anomaly
between the franchise for £3OO in the Three per Cent. Con-
sols and the £6O savings bank franchise was to be recon-
ciled. Both were to be money or money's wet th in Govern-
ment securities, and how Xtib in one Goverument security,
and £3OO in another, could be equality, he could not corn-
prebend. (Hear.) Was £6O in a savings bank a fair test by
which you could. say that a man among the working classes'
who did not possess itwas not as respectable and trustworthy
as a man who did? (Hear, hear.) He said that it was no
such test at all. He was ready to admit that a man 'who had
£6O in the savings bank might be, and probably was, a most
respectable person ; but what were the circumstances under
which one man had it and another did not possess it—for
that was the real point ? (Hear, hear.) It wits said that
you wanted to measure a man's prudence, self-respect, amd
care, and that was the security But there was a difference
between a married man and a single man, and between a
man with a large and a man with a small family. (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Henle) happened to be a man with a large
family. A man might be respectable and trustworthy
among the working classes, although he might not be able
to put money in th savings bank. There was such a thing
as putting children to school among the humbler as well as
the higher classes. There were thousands of children run-
ning about the streets who did not go to school, and if a man
with four or five children let them run about the streets, and •
sent his wife to work in a factory, if he was a money-mak-
ing man he might get £6O in the savings bank, but he was
not a more respectable member of society than a mien who
put his children to school . and let his wife attend to his
family, and therefore did not make money. (Hear.) There
fore £6O in the savings bank was not a fair test of a mem-
ber of the working classes havinga right to the franchise.
He did not admit that the savings bank franchise standing
alone was a criterion of the right of a working man to the
franchise. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the
Colonies spoke-of the danger of the extension of the fran-
chise in that direction. His right hon. friend nearldm (Mr.
Walpole) spoke of a £6 franchise. That would admit
10400 voters, not more; but if you made that alteration
in the borough franchise, which was now 400,000, would
that compare with what was proposed by the bill, namely to
let in 300,000 or 400,000 ? He would now say a word or two
on the amendment of the noble lord. That was the question
before the house, and which bore on the vote of every mem-
ber. He agreed with what had been said, that they had
not got the issue fairly before them. It was not the
of the second reading of the bill simply and purely. They
had got on the one hand the amendment of the itoble lord,
and, on the other, the declaration of the Government. He
should have occasion to notice both. What did
the noble lord's amendment secure—for that was the
first question ? It secured, certainly, to those who affirmed
it, that there would be no transfer of the freehold franchise
in boroughs. The great part of that was completely met by
the clauses which had been somewhat irregularly eaut into
the bill by the-Government. What did the last part of the
amendment do ? It was as vague as anything could be—so
vague that no human being could assign any definite mean-
ing to it. If the Government was to reduce the lodger fran-
chise from Bs. to 7s. 6d., it would satisfy the noble lord's
amendment. Was it worth while to meet such a measure
by such an amendment ; and he asked himself why it had
been done. It seemed to him to have but orle object. He did
not deal with men's motives ; he had nothing to do with
them, and he thought they would be better without them.
(Laughter.) The only object was to get the votes of many
members of the house, who did not like to vote against the
second reading of the Reform Bill; and it was a kind of
means of kicking out the bill without that inconvenience.
(Hear.) That semen° be the object of the amendment.
He, for one, could not join in that process. (Hear.) He
(Mr. Henley) was one of those who thought it very de-
sirable this question should, if possible. be settled. There
were two things which he had gathered front this debate.
One was, that a very considerable number of members of
the house, if not the majority, were anxious that the thing
should be settled this year. (Cheers.) He also believed the
larger number were quite disposed to say that in its present
shape the Government bill would not settle this question.
(Cheers.) Of those two points anybody who had attended to
the debate must be pretty well aware. He, then, for one, was
ready to go into committee on the bill ; and he hoped When
they got into committee, the deliberations of the house would •
have their due weight with the Government, and induce
them, if possible, to get the bill into such a shape as to afford
reasonable ground of satisfying the more moderate people.
It was quite out of the question to satisfy all. (Cheers.) Do
what they would, they could not do that. He quite agreed
in thinking that it did not matter one farthing what bill the
Government brcught forward. (Cheers.) He believed
whatever it was, it would have been pulled about and torn
to pieces, and a party would have been formed against it,
just as much as had now been done. (Hear, hour.) This
was very natural, and he blamed nobody for it. It was very
natural on a subject which was one of such enormous diffi-
culty that hardly any two persons in private conversation
could agree upon it; and, the Government not having a ma-
jority in the house, it was a very tempting opportunity for
the gentlemen opposite to exercise what was their perfect
right, and tear any measure of the Government to pieces. It
was something more than their right—he did not know that
it was not their duty—to tear it to pieces, if it was capable
of being torn, because, no doubt, by that means, we might
get a better measure. (Hear, hear.) But he would also say
to the Government that, considering the position they were
in when they took office, and that they were now bringing
forward a bill under such known and vast difficulties, that
did not place them in the same position with regard to
making alterations which they could not agree to, as if they
had a great majority at their beck, and their own friends
had not been divided in opinion. He would venture in all
humility to say that this was an important consideration
for the Government, with respect to their own followers, in
going into committee. The situation was a peculiar one,
and must be judged of by its peculiar circumstances ; and
those rules could not be applied to it which probably would
otherwise, in a general way, be applied in a case where the
Government had a majority at its beck, instead of being in
a known minority, with a great number of its own' friends
differing in opinion. hie had stated frankly his objections
to this measure, and he now stated, equally frankly, why
he could not support the motion of the noble lord, which
would do no good, but hang up the subject for another
year, and give more opportunity for that agitation which
some persons would be glad enough to create. Those per-
sons, indeed, if a Reform Bill was brought forward with
the provisions of which they. could not agree, would use
it as additional fuel for the fire, and no good would come
of that but exasperation of feeling, and setting one class
against another. Hewes, therefore, very anxious, as rapidly
as possible, to settle this question. Many members had
said that if we took one step downwards, wo roust go to the
last step at once, with no resting placebetween. He doubted
that very much; he did not think the people of this coun-
try were unreasonable. (Cheers.) He
.believed we could
go down by steps, and. go safer by steps. His great objec- •
tion to this bill was that it laid down a principle which
would prevent our going down by steps, because equalising
the occupation franchise throughout the whole country
would to a great degree have that effect. (Hear, hear)
Equality of franchise, in his opinion, was dangerous. Two
examples had been quoted to frighten the house—those of
France and America. He did not want either of them, but
our own mixed constitution, in which each part of the com-
munity should have its due share. Classes of people as
well as individuals were likely to be :elfishif they got all
the power into their own hands. Our constitution, with
its ins and outs, and what people might call its absurdities,
had contrived to stand for hundreds of years, and it was
remarked by Lord Macaulay that it had stood because the
people, when they wanted any improvement, did not look
about for any new-fangled fashions, but proceeded to get
what they wanted by the old ways. He believed that con-
stitution afihrtled more liberty, more security for life and
property, than any other; and though he wished; if he
could, to amend it, he wished to do so by an extension of
its old principles. (Cheers.)

Mr. 'ROEBUCK—Sir, no one estimates morehighly than
I do the importance of the subject we are now discussing.
In the many years I have been in Parliament no such great
subject has occupied our attention. Other matters may
have had a momentary importance, but they have been cir-
cumscribed in point of time, and in the extent of their ope-
rations. But the alteration you seek now to effect is an altra-
tion in the constitution of this country. The acts of this
house influence tho destinies of the whole world, and there-
fore the act which we are now about considering is an act
that influences the happiness of mankind. This is why I
wish, if possible—not to put an end to this subject, for an end
to it we cannot put ; but I want to go forward. My object is
to obtain what reform I can; and the question 'that I ask
myself is, in what way can I best obtain that reform ?
There is, sir, a matter now before the house, and that mat-
ter is twofold. What is it that we aro about ? We are about
to reform the Reform Act. Then we have got two inquiries
to make—what is it that requires reform ? and, what means
shall we take to attain the end we desire ? Now, sir, I will
at once apply myself to those two matters ; and I have too
much respect for the house to occupy their attention for a
long time at this period of the debate; I will study brevity
as much as I can. The House of Commons, from the very
day of its establishment; has been in a state of constai
fluctuation and change. Now it has changed as regards its
own influence in the state; now it has changed as regards.
the persons who elect it. For many years the House of
Commons was the humble handmaid of the House of Lords..
But the House of Lords took to themselves the pastime of