The Sun.
London, England, 1861-12-23 00:00:00

THE FRENCH SENATE.

The Senate met on Saturday, M. Troplong in the
chair. Admiral Hamelin, the Marquis de Gabriac,
and General Bar, excused themselves for not attend-
ing. M. Earoche, Minister, President of the Coun-
cil of State ; MM. Magne and Billault, ministers
without portfolio; M. de Parieu, Vice-President of
the Council of State ; and M. Vuitry, President of
Section, took their places on the seats set apart for
the government commissioners.

Ti; order of the day was tho discussion on tho
Senatus Consultum to change the mode of voting
the Budget.

The Marquis DE LAROCHEJAQUELEIN expressed
I desire to speak to a motion of order.

The PRESIDENT—There is no such motion before
he house.

The Marquis DE LAROCHEJAQUELEIN thought he
had a right to make the proposition in question.
The Government had there and elsewhere given
explanations on the finances, which at the time had
satisfied the public and the two chambers ; but
events had since modified that opinion. He there.
fore thought it would be better for the Government,
before the discussion commenced, to explain its
views clearly and categorically, in order to dissipate
the obscurity which seemed to cover the facts.
(Movement.)
The PRESIDENT—Those are interpellations, and
ithis is not the moment to make them ; they cannot,
!come on until the discussion of the address.

The Marquis DE LAROCHEJAQUELEIN—I merelj
[wish the Government to explain before the die-

cussion.

_The PRESIDENT—OA what ? The order of the
day is fixed, and I call on you to observe it.
M. MAGNE, Minister without Portfotlo—lf the -
Senate thought it desirable to have certain expla-
nations on tho statement made at the beginning
lof the year, the Government was ready to show
that it had not a word or a figure to retract;',
there was not the slightest discrepancy between
the statement then made and that presented by M.
Fould. The Senate would observe that, in the ex-
planations given on several occasions by the organs
of the Government, whether within those walls or
to the Legislative Body, there was no question but
of positive facts, which belongs henceforth to the
history of the Empire, and were known to every .
• one. It was also proper to remark that the state-
ment made by M. Fould related chiefly 0 facts be-
- longing to the years 1860 and 1861, the results of
which had not been known when the explanations
were presented at the beginning
of the year. "Bute
I can affirm," added the hon. minister, " that no-
thing has been concealed from the great bodies of
the State nor from the public, and had concealment
been desired it would have been impossible. In no
country aro the finances managed with greater
publicity than in France. Our finances are written
.in public and authentic documents, and if the
Government even wished to conceal the truth it
would be not only blameable, but would commit a•
4ignal folly, for thousands of voices would be raised
to denounce the deception. (Approbation.) I re-
peat there is no contradiction between the figures
presented by us and those given by M. Fould. For
s instance, the deficit for the year 1860 was estimated,
by the committee on the budget, at 70 millions; the
.'sti Government, far from attempting any concealment,
'gave its estimate as high as 100 millions, and the
;.event has proved that the Government was right.

It is to be regretted that the public is not suffi-
ciently versed in those matters; the consequence is
that accusations are circulated which the public
would know to be unfounded if it were possible to
'induce it to read the numerous documents pub-

lished, and in which everything is fully explained.
What was said at the beginning of the season is true;
but at the same time it is undeniable that the
in-
crease of supplementary credits, however justifiable,'
might give rise to future difficulties. The President
of the Senate has justly remarked in his able re-
port that the act of the Emperor is spontaneous,
perfectly free, and completely ratified by public
opinion." (Applause.)
Prince Napoleon hero entered and took his seat.

The PRESIDENT then declared the general dis
cussion to be open.

Baron BRENIER read a speech in which he began
by mentioning the approbation with which the
Emperor's letter and the report of the present Mi-
nister of Finance had been received by the country,
which well understood what it owed his Majesty
for such a proof of personal abnegation. When
the Sovereign had thus spontaneously offered to
grant a right which had been claimed by the legis-
lative body, it was not for the Senate to check so
generous a movement. In glancing at the present
financial situationit was, however, well to considerl
whether too much precipitation might not be mani-
fested in overturning the present legislation. For

his part, he could affirm that he felt no regret at'
seeing a liberal impulse given to the constitution,
which certainly was susceptible of reform and im
provement—of the former, according to the neces-
sities that might arise ; and of the latter, like the
nation which it applied to. Ho should, therefore,l
not oppose the Scnatus Consultum as increasing)
the powers of the legislative body, but as weaken-
ing a power which ho considered as essential. The
present financial system was, be said, a piece of
simple mechanism which everybody could readily
'comprehend, and which was equally well calculated
tomeet ordinary and unforeseen circumstances. lie
could not say the same for the proposed system of
transfers, which he thought would be very difficult
in their application, and lead to confusion. What
would be done if a war should suddenly break out.
and a necessity arose for a large supply of stores,
It was a want of those which was the primary,,
cause of the loss of the battle of Waterloo. Would

there not, therefore, be some danger in the sys-1
tem of transfers from one chapter to another. In
his opinion the confusion would be extreme, and
Ithe budget would arrive before the legislative
!body in a very disorganised state. Tho expose
I(ks molffs stated that recourse might in an
'extreme case bo had to bills of indemnity, but
!he was opposed to the idea of incurring such a dan-
!ger, and the savings which it was hoped to realise
!by the new system might, he feared, cost very dear.
It should not be forgotten that under a change in

!the financial system there is a modification proposed,
lin the constitution itself, and a Parliamentary re
igime is being re-established. The initiative of the
crown remained entire, but it would have to reckon
on obstacles which it had not hitherto met with
He did not wish to say anything calculated to offend
'England, but it was impossible not to see that her
military preparations have always been made slowly
precisely because they could not be entered into
without legislative co-operation. You remember,
continued the hon. senator, the enthusiasm which
was manifested for the sovereign on his departure
for Italy. But if public opinion, if the legislative
body, anxious to protect the interests of the tax-
payers, had not been favourable to the enterprise
which his Majesty had undertaken in that country,
what would have been the situation of the Govern-
ment if the system now proposed had been then in
force ? You would have regretted the loss of -a
prerogative whieh would have prevented the Em-
peror from carrying out a great political idea. Can
we accept the situation recommended by the report
at a moment when in the Old World so many dif-
ferent interests are in presence, and at which in the
New World a terrible struggle is about to com-

mence. Let us not forget that France must play
the leading part in the conflict which is inevitably
coming between the principles of cld times and those
of the French Revolution. (Approbation.) The
system proposed will not remedy the inconveni-
ences complained of—since under it there will be
the same difficulty as before in effecting a reduc-
tion in the budget : to do so, an entire section
must be rejected, but the rejection of a section
would be the disorganisation of a branch of the
public service. As to supplementary and extraor-
dinary credits, the report is in error in supposing
that they came into use with the Parliamentary
regime, for they do not exist in England, where that
regime is in full force ; but they were adopted in
France because they satisfied a necessity of the
state, and form part of the national forces, and on
that account they ought not to be abandoned. If
the credits referred to be replaced by laws, the
legislative body will be under the obligation of
passively accepting the propositions made to it, or
refusing them in virtue of parliamentary sove-
reignty, and either case would be deplorable. To
arrive at such a result as that is it necessary that
!the Government, by useless abnegation, should de-

!Iprive itself of powers conferred on it by the consti

Fnution ? Can we believe, besides, that there were
o other means of escaping from embarrassment
than those indicated in the memoir in the Moni-,
item. ? Might not the floating debt have been conj
os lidated, and the public debt, which is three times
less than that of England, have been somewhat aug-
Imented ? But, instead of such measures, the
memoir prefers exceptional ones, and designates as
'the sole cause of the evil a prerogative which ought
to be preserved as a palladium in the hands of the
sovereign ? Where is the peril ? In the deficit of
a milliard ? But that figure at first appeared to me
Ito be exaggerated, and the expose des motifs shows
'that my impression was right. (Here the hon. sena-
itor quoted from different documents to prove that
there was no peril in the situation.) He after wards
went on to affirm that the floating debt was not a
but 879,000,000 f. ; also that, as the com
mittce had reported. the present Government wa,
lonly responsible for 100,000,000 f. of the sum, which
4100,000,000 f. had been employed in the expedition
Ito the East, and in the expenses of the occupatoin of
!Rome. He declared that the alarm which M. Fould's
report had occasioned was now dissipated, and he
asked if the present legislation did not suffice to pre
vent exaggerated expenses? He concluded by declar-
ling that the abandonment of the power heretofore
!exercised by the Emperor was not only not neces-
isary, but dangerous ; and, in frankly expressing
that opinion, he believed he was serving the country
land his Majesty. (Approbation.)

Count DE CASABIANCA would examine how far
the supplementary and extraordinary credits opened
by the Imperial Government had weighea on the
finances of the country; thanks to the manner in
which the accounts were kept, the employment of
even the slightest sum could be readily verified.
Here were two kinds of extra budgetary credits. •
Isom established by laws and others by decrees.
'According to the accounts furnished by the admini-
stration of finance, the whole of the credits opened
since first January, 1852, up to the present time,
amounted to 3,123,000,000 francs, which included
the expense of the campaigns in the East and Italy.
The legislative bc,ly, as was wellknown, had voted
different loans, amounting together to two milliards,
rand the nation had five times more. The account
of the expenses of the war in the East, which
amounted to 1,348,000,000 f., had been verified by
commission. France bad not derived glory alone.
from that war, but an extension of her commercial
relations, and the commission had declared that
after that war the value of the naval arsenals, and
the supplies they contained, had increased by 260
millions. The same verification had not yet taken
place for the war in Italy, but the expenses of the
. two Ministries of War and Marine had been esti-
'. mated at 352 millions. By deducting from the,
credits the loans voted for the war by the legisla

tive body there remained a sum of 1,428,000,000 f
As to the Ministries of tiV ar and Marine, it must
be remembered that the land and sea forces
had assumed a large and magnificent development,
and that it was not with the sole resources of the

[budget that the military situation could have been

made what it is. " And never," said the hon. sena-
tor, "will France regret an expense which haE

replaced her in a rank which no nation will hence-
forth dispute dispute her right to hold." (Applause.) France
might now confidently advance in the course of
prosperity opened to her by her natural resources,
and the genius and courage of her sons.
M. HUBERT•DELISLE observed that it was evi-
dent from the statement of M. Magna, from the
report of their president, and the figures quoted b 3
M. de Casabianca, that the financial situation of
,France was most satisfactory.
Count DE SEGUR-D'AUGESSEAU—The objections
made to the Senatus Consultum had been answered
in advance by the expose des motifs of the Council
of State and by the report of President Troplong.
He remarked that the modification proposed in the
mode of voting the budget wes the fulfilment by
the Emperor of a promise made last session to the
legislative body ; and that the concession accorded
was granted by his Majesty in full liberty and
without any constraint. The Emperor now thought
that he could freely and spontaneously sacrifice
ipart of his prerogative, and that his doing so wank
give more liberty and dignity to the legislative body.
Tho Minister of Finance attributed the mistrust of

Europe to the prerogative of the Emperor, but tha
_ .

privilege had always existed, and the mistrust had
only been felt during the last two years ; the reason
assigned by the hon. minister was not therefore thcl
true one. The mistrust among the 'powers coral
moiled with Russia, from whom the supremacy ini
the Black Sea had been wrested. The next cause
,was the war in Italy ; when fears were entertained
that the noble and disinterested movement ofi
France might extend further than was at first in-1
`tended. Those feelings of distrust, however, had
subsided, and confidence was re-established when
the Emperor was seen to stop after the victory of,
Selferino. There again it revived, when it was;
thought that the Emperor's Government did not
remain faithful in Italy to the policy proclaimedin ;
pro'ious declarations, and when France no lon-I

ger left to Piedmont alone the responsibility of
, certain acts, and when that deviation in the policy
of France and the principle of intervention, which
was to benefit the Italian Powers, was seen to pro-
. fit only the audacious ambition of Piedmont. There)
was a change of system. Add all the successivei
acts of complaisance to Piedmont after the odious"
Calsehoods of Chambery ; and the silence with which,
France supported the insults heaped on the First
Minister of the Sovereign Pontiff confided to thel
protection of French soldiers. (Question.)
The PRESIDENT—You wander from the subject,
under discussion, and you efface the good impres-
sion produced by the first part of your speech, on
which the Senate congratulated you.
Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU—I am endea
vouring to explain by another reason than that
given by M. Fould the distrust which certainly
exists in Europe with regard to the Imperial
policy—. (Noise.)
Marshal VAILLANT—That goes beyond the
bounds of the present discussion.

Count DE SEGUR-VAGUESSEA'U—I maintain that
lam in the question. The Minister of Finance hasl
ascribed the opinion of Europe to causes which I do
not admit to be just. I give arguments in support
of a contrary view of the case. I do not see in what
respect I wander from the subject under discussion.
It shall not be said that a senator is to-day inter.
dicted from speaking, when the speech of the. ist
March, which caused us so much affliction? was
listened to with great attention.
The PRESIDENT—That speech was listened to be-
cause it was in its proper place, being on the dis-
cussion of the address. But now you go beyond the
question, and I call you to it. (Hear.)

Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAII—It was that
speech of Prince Napoleon which has caused the
distrust. (Noise, and cries of " Question, Ques-
tion.")
Marshal VAILLANT—We protest against that
opinion.

Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU—The manner in
which that speech was received here—.

M. DuPIN—No one stirred!
Count DE SEGIJR-D'AGUESSEAU—It is precisely
:hat of which I complain. (Noise.)

M. PIETRI—We knew in advance that this lan-
guage was to be held here—everybody knew it.
(Hear, hear.)
Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU—The speech ofl
the Ist of March—

The PRESIDENT—Speak to the question. What
you have to say will find its place in the discussion
on the address.

Count DE SEGUR-VAGUESSEAIT—If my remarks
are not just so much the better for my opponents;
they will the more easily be answered by the speak-
ers for the Government.

M. BAROCHE—We shall not reply to them.
Count DE SEGUR-VAGITESSEALT—M. Fould men-

tioned a case of mistrust. I discuss his report, as I
have a right to do. The cause: of the mistrust of
Europe is, I repeat, in the speech of Prince Napo
Leon. (Murmurs, interruptions, and renewed cries
of " Question, question.")
M. PIETRI—The evil lies in the opposition of
party men—of the reactionists.
Count DE SEGUR-VAGUESSEAU then read a res.-
sage from Prince Napoleon's speech, to the effect
that the eyes of all nations were turned to Napo-
leon 111., and that they hoped to see the map of Eu-
rope remodelled. (Interruption.) He was told that
i
it was the speech of a private individual—.
I M. DuriN—Of a senator.

Count DE SEGUR.D'AGUESSEAU—You are right;
but do not forget that it was not followed by any'
libservations from the organs of the Government.
The Duke DE LA FORCE—It was on the follow-
ling day.
M. BAROCHE—That is perfectly true.

Count BE SEGUR D'AGUESSEAU—There was no'
!official contradiction either before or after the
ipeech. _ _

M. BILLAULT—But there was at the following
sitting

Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU —Hence arose
apprehension. (Loud cries of " Question, question.")

Count 1)E SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU—I demand a
little liberty.
The PRESIDENT—I am about to remand you of
the regulations; it is formally stated in Art. 16
that the President is to interrupt any speaker when
he departs from the question under discussion.
The Marquis DE BOISSY—The hon. senator has
not done so.

The PRESIDENT—M. de Segur, I cannot allow
you to continue.
Count DE SEGUE-D'AGUESSEAU—I shall be really
distressed, Monsieur le President, to enter into a dis-
cussion with you on the liberty of the tribune.

(Noise.)
The PRESIDENT—I should be as much distressed
as you, for I am the guardian of it.
Count DE SEGUE. D'AGUESSEAU—It is the glory
of imperial institutions to have restored to us this

little tribune. Let it not be token from us. If I
am interrupted by certain persons, it is because I
have touched them on a sore point. (Murmurs.)
The Marquis DE BOISSY—That is true.
The PRESIDENT—There is no question of infring-,
ing on the liberty of the tribune ; you will have the
right to bring forward your arguments at the time
of the discussion on the address, and no one will in-
terfere with you. I only interrupt you now be-

cause you have departed from the question.
Count DE SEGUR-D'AGUESSEAU—Thepresent dis-
cussion is complex. The financial question, as M.
Fould has well proved, is complicated by external
pre-occupations. I am therefore on the real
ground in alluding to the question of the mistrust
of Europe. I demand permission to continue.
(Question.)
The PRESIDENT—You hear the cries which come
from a great number of benches. I shall be obliged
to consult the Senate to ascertain whether it will
allow you to proceed.
Count De Segur-d'Aguesseau—lf the Senate takes
from me the right of speaking I shall retire, but I

demand a formal vote before the tribune is inter-
dicted to me.
Marshal Canrobert—Confine yourself to the ques.

tion, and you can continue.
Count De Segur d'Aguesseau—l continue. When
the speech of Prince Napoleon—(renewed cries of

Question, question)—who did not find any contra
diction—

The Duke De La Force—M. Billault replied.

Count De Segur-d'Aguesseau—But you know
under what circumstances. The speech of the Ist
March received no immediate contradiction. The
speaker was not interrupted as I am to-day. (Noise
and interruption.) Make the Senate, Monsieur le
President, interdict me formally from speaking if 1
am not to continue.

The President—At the period to which you refell

the speech was in the question, and there was no
l
reason to interrupt it; but now you are out of th( °
question, and therefore are prevented going on.
Count De Segur-d'Aguesseau—l am told that the
speech of Prince Napoleon encountered here ati
,official contradiction. It was on the day after, and,
on a dircct interpellation of Cardinal Mathieu, that
M. Billault decided on speaking. He said the speech
contained many things which could not be approved
of ; but he carefully abstained from saying what
'the points were which did not please the Govern
ment, which did not obtain its assent. And yet at
the same time time, but not in this place, a minister,
with portfolio expressed aloud his enthusiasm for
•
the speech of the Prince.
A Voice—That is true !
Count DE SEGER VAGUESSEAU—That
is not all.
The speech, treated as official, was stuck
up
pcln
all
the communes of the empire, and thereby_.e
importance
received
the governmental stamp. Such was the the right
e-
to say that it was not disavowed. ascribed to that speech. I have,dtn
There were, per
haps, verbal disavowals, but none
assure public opinion. Such is the causewhichcouolfd
the re -

Ibe as if one was whistling to the winds. (Murmurs.)
M. DUPIN—The great dignitaries who sat in the
i Senate only spoke as senators, and their speeches
derived all their importance from the talent dis-
played. The speech in question was that of a
prince, and involved no obligation or engagement
'on the part of the Government. The fact that it
was not opposed did not imply the approbation of
the Government. It was important in the interest
of the Senate, and also of the dignitaries, that this
'should be fully understand, as a contrary interpre.
tation would be attended with inconvenience.
(Approbation.)

M. BILLATILT—The observation of M. Dupin
perfectly correct. The opinions of the Govern-
ment are expressed from this bench, because those
who sit here know the Emperoi's thought.

Count DE BEAUMONT had read with much
J.- pleasure the Emperor's letter announcing his inten-
1.
tion of relinquishing a prerogative because it showed
devotedness to the country. Supplementary credits
had always been attacked in the old chambers as
• well as in the present, and they were complained
of in the Senate during the last session by Count de
Casabianca and the Marquis d'Audriffet. In reply
to Count de Segur d'Aguesseau, Le blamed him for
having estimated at Cf. per commune the share re-
sulting from the credit of two millions opened for
.improving roads in rural districts. The Emperor
had taken part in the efforts of the councils-general
with regard to the making of cross-roads, by grant-
ing 25,000,000 f. to be spread over several years:;
and the grant would cause a larger disbursement
of departmental and communal funds for that use-
ful purpose. The hon. senator then proceeded to
remark on the situation in which the Senatus Con-
sultum would place the deputies with regard to their
indemnity. At present each receives an indemnity
of 2,500 f. a month fo:&a session of three months, and
when the session exceeds that period a supplemen-
taryindemnity is accorded by decree ; but for the fu-
ture the deputies would after the third month vote
the supplement themselves. As this would place
them in an awkward position, he thought that it
would be desirable to give them a fixed indemnity
whatever the length of the session. He called the
attention of the Government to that matter. With
respect to the right of amendment in the legislative
body, he thought that it might be so enlarged as to
allow a deputy to propose an amendment after the
reading of a report in public sitting, instead of, as
at present, being required to do SD before the pre-
sentation of the report.
I The discussion was then adjourned.