The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-09 00:00:00

PRIVATE BILLS.

The following bill was read a second time :—The Red
Sea and Indian Telegraph Company (No. 2).
The following bills were read a third time and
passed :—Bagnelstown and Wexford Railway, Glou-
cester and Cheltenham Tramway Abandonment, Great
Northern and Western of Ireland Railway,
Greenwich and South-Eastern Docks, Bray com-
mon, Londonderry Bridge, Sunderland and South Shields
Water, and Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Markets and
ier.

VOTE OF THANKS TO THE INDIAN ARMY.
The Earl of Derby said he should should postpone the
moving of a vote of thanks to the army in Indian from
Manday next till Thursday.
STATE OF EUROPE.
- - - -

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he thought be-
fore Parliament was prorogued her Majesty' Government
should communicate some information to their lordships
as to what steps they had taken to procure the peace of
Europe.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said, before the Parlia-
ment closed, he should make a statment to the house
showing that the Government had done all they could to
preserve the peace of Europe.
INDICTABLE OFFENCES (METROPOLITAN
DISTRICTS) BILL.

*The Lord CHANCELLOR moved the third reading
of this bill:
Lord LYNDHURST said he had great objections
to the bill. He thought at the present moment it
was utterly unnecessary to introduce enactments in
defence of the people against arbitrary government.
Political prosecutions for political offences were now nearly
unknown, so the complaints upon which the present bill
was grounded were almost groundless. He had, however,
lived in a time when Government was carried on not only
in an arbitrary but a tyrannical system, and when political
prosecutions were matters of daily occurrence, so he was
fully able to appreciate the advantages which prevailed
at the present day, compared with the time of which he
had spoken. To bear out his views, the noble and learned
lord quoted some passages from " Blackstone',: v om-
mentaries," and proceeded to remark th• was
laid down as a maxim of the English 1. at no
man could be put upon his trial unles: .ill had
been found against him by a grand j and then
he could not be punished unless he was found guilty
by twelve of his countrymen. Such a provision, he con-
tended, afforded support and protection to all persons.
(Hear, hear.) He was exceedingly sorry to find that the
first innovation on the :eat principle of trial by jury was
ventured upon by her Majesty's present Government, and
although he entertained the highest respect for the noble
lord who now sat on the woolsack, he thought the pro-
visions of this bill would more then likely be strained
to arbitrary and tyrannical purposes. Now, then,
their lordships knew that no peer could be tried at their
lordships' bar until
,a bill had been found against him by a
grand jury, but suppose the bill was agreed to and went 'to
the House of Commons, what would they say to the mea-
sure ? Why, that this house agreed to a measure to abolish
the necessity of a grand jury, so far as the Commons
were concerned, but had taken care to exempt themselves
from its provisions. (Hear, hear.) The noble and learned
lord then referred to the inconvenience, as it had been
called by the supporters of the measure, of the great num-
ber of persons compelled to be in attendance during the
sitting of the grand jury, but he contended that
all that was occasioned by non-consideration, and
he for one could not say that was sufficient
to cause such an important alteration in the law of Eng-
land. Then again, expense had been referred to, but he
thought this objection was as inefficient as the former for
the changes that would take place if this bill became law.
He cautioned his noble friend that if this bill passed,
the change would not remain where it was at present pro-
posed, but the counties would endeavour to get rid of their
grand juries. He (Lord Lyndhurst) could only repeat
that he did not like a bill which he regarded as the first
stay towards abolishing an institution which had been in
existence many hundred years, and which had been main-
tained in the worst times, and nder the most arbitrary Go-
vernments. (Cheers.)
Lord WENSLEYDALE had stated on the second read-
ing that he entertained a strong objection to the bill on con-
stitutional grounds. That opinion he still retained.
Lord CAMPBELL hoped that after what had occurred
the noble and learned lord (Lord Chelmsford) would not press
his bill ; for it was utterly impossible that it could be dis-
cussedin the other house during the present session.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not insensible to the
difficulty in which he stood, opposed, as he was, by his noble
and learned friend, for whom he had for many years enter-
tained the greatest possible respect, and whose opinion he
knew to be of the highest authorityin their lordships' house.
At the same time he thought he had a right to complain of
the course which had been taken by his noble friend with
regard to this bill. On its introduction he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) had explained the grounds upon which he thought
such a measure was desirable, and they appeared to meet
with the general concurrence of their lordships. On the
second reading his noble friend never intimated that he en-
tertained the slightest objection to the bill ; but his noble
friend (Lord Wensleydale) certainly did make some few re-
marks against the bill, which did not, however, meet with
any general support. When the bill was fixed to go into
committee his learned friend put a question to him (Lord
Chelnisford) as to certain alterations which he said would
remove many of his objections to the bill.
Lord LYNDHURST—WouId lessen them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—" Lessen" might be the
phrase, but his noble friend never intimated that he would
offer the bill any active opposition. When he (Lord Chelms-
ford) proposed a day for the third reading his noble friend
suggested that it would not be proper to pass such a mea-
sure in the absence of the Lord Chief Justice, and he had
therefore fixed the third reading for a distant day.
"When his noble and learned friend arrived from circuit, he
had a communication with him on the subject of this bill,
but he had no reason to believe that he was hostile to it, and
he thought he should have some support from him, though
he made objections to some of the provisions of the bill. But
he did not till to-night know that there was to be any oppo-
sition to his bill, and he thought he had some reason to com-
plain of his noble and learned friends, who, on a former
occasion, induced him to postpone the bill, and now urged
him to withdraw it. He was sure they did not mean to ac-
complish that result, but that had been the effect. He did
not-yield to his noble and learned friend in everyregard for
our ancient institutions, but he was not so blindly enamoured
as not to perceive their defects, nor was he so entirely
wedded to antiquity aS, when ancient things had declined
from their original use, to abstain from placing a reforming
hand upon them. His noble and learned friend (Lord
Lyndhurst) had regretted that this bill should have been
introduced for the first time by a Conservative Govern-
ment. His noble and learned friend would forgive him for
staying that this was not the first time that such a measure
bid been introduced. In 1849 it was introduced into the
House of Commons by a Liberal Government. In the year
18:57 it was introduced by himself into the House of Com-
mons with the sanction of a Liberal Government, and when
his noble and learned friend said they were now legislating
for themselves, and did not know how the bill would be re-
ceived in the House of Commons, he would tell his noble
and learned friend that a similar bill had passed the second
stage in the House of Commons no less than three times,
and he believed that a majority of the House of Commons
was infavour of this measure. His noble and learned friend
was in favour of continuing grand juries for the purpose of
protecting persons charged with political offences. One
would have thought that there was nothing in the bill to
exclude from its operation offences of that description, but it
provided that persons charged with such offences should not
be put on their trial without the intervention of a grand jury,
and if his noble and learned friend, when the bill was in com-
mittee, would have made any sug,gestign to give further pro-
tection in that respect, he should have glady acquiesced in
it. He believed- that at all events within the metropolitan
district grand juries were not only of no use, but that they
were actually mischievous. But he had no desire to destroy
grand juries in the country. The Lord Chief Justice said
he objected to the Lord Mayor and aldermen sitting in the
public courts, and he said he did not find absolute wisdom
in a Lord Mayor and aldermen. He was afraid if his noble
and learned friend extended his views beyond the city he
would not find absolute wisdom anywhere. It was a matter
of notoriety that the Lord Mayor and aldermen of the City
of London discharged their duty well, and he challenged his
noble and learned friend to produce any instance within
recent times in which there had been any failure on the
part of the city magistrates to do their duty. In the present
state of the session he despaired of passing the bill through
the House of Commons, and therefore he should withdraw
the bill, but if he was permitted he should introduce it in
another session.
Lord OVERSTONE said when he was chairman of the
p=d jury at the Central Criminal Court they had 400 bills
before them, and he put it to their lordships whether it was
possible to give those bills due deliberation. Merchants
dreaded being summoned on the grand jury, as they were
away nine or ten days from business, frequently to their
serious inconvenience and detriment.
After a few words from Earl GREY and Lord CAMPBELL,
the order for the third reading of the bill was discharged.
AFFIDAVITS BY COMMISSION BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
PETITIONS OF RIGHT BILL.

On the oilier of the clay for the second reading of this bill,Lord KINGSDOWN
said there were some of the details
of the bill of which he did not approve, and in the present
state of the session he thought it better to move that the
order for the second reading be discharged.
After a few observations from the LORD CHANCELLOR
and Lord CAMPBELL, the order for the second reading was
die charged.

PUBLIC OFFICES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
NCYTTINJHA,NI CHARITIES BILL

This bill was also read a second time.
SAVINGS BANKS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
RECREATION GROUNDS BILL.
On the bringing up of the report on this bill,
Lord DUNGANNON sugg.ested that its provisions
should be extended to Ireland.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY expressed his
Om to adopt the suggestion.
The word
o. " Ireland" having been inserted, the
report
%vas agr t
St. James Baldersby Marriages Validity Bill was read a
,second time.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Atlantic Telegraph Company (No. 2) ; Brecon and Mer-
thyr Tydfil Junction Railway; Castle Douglas and Dum-
fries Railway ; Charleston Railway and Harbour ; Forth
and Clyde Navigation ; Gateshead Quay ; Great North of
i3eotland Railway; Merthyr, Tredegar, and Abergavenny