The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAIVIENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsa4
at five o'clock.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Pro-
v;sionel Council of Auckland, praying fur a separate legis-
lature for, that colony.
LLEVATE BUSINESS.
the,motion of Lord REDESDALE, the Mountsorrel
Railway Bill was read, a second time ; and the London and
South-Western Railway and the Border Counties Railway
bills were read a third time, and passed. • .
THE BIRKENHEAD, LANCASHIRE, AND
CHESHIRE RAILW,AY. -
On the motion that this bill be read a third time •
cord STANLEY of ALDERLEY complained of the
provisions of the bill, especially to one which empowered
he company to stop up a certain street in Birkenhead, which
was at present of great convenience to the public. The
clause for stopping up the crossing had been inserted in the
committee, and he moved, as an amendment, that the stop-
cage should not take place without the consent of the
-Mersey Dock and Harbour Company. - Lord TORRINGTON defended the clause inserted in
committee.
After a short discussion, in which the Earl of Chichester, •
Lord Redesdale, Lord Colchester, and the Earl of Donough-
more, took part, it was decided that the question should be
referred to the Board of Trade, and the debate was there-
upon adjourned.
LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE'S MOTION.
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE said it would
be recollected that a few evenings ago he proposed to bring
the Italian question under discussion, but he had postponed
bringing forward that motion, reserving the right of doing
so at a future time. In consequence, however, of a treaty
of 'peace having been signed, he begged to withdraw his
notice from the paper altogether.
ATTORNEY AND SOLICITORS' BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second, reading
of this bill, which was to improve the education and status
of solicitors and attorneys, and to shbrten the terms of
clerkship to three years of those who had taken a degree at
one of the universities. •
After a few remarks from Lord BROUGHAM,
The bill was read a second time.
THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY'S TERRITORY.
The Earl of CARNARVON askedwhether her Majesty's
Government intended in the present session to take any
fwl
eicrrheoneldse,eorntfoeathtsruaedrieer,:ctut,tceinathvlyteheaesttelrlioarnylms.
steps with reference to the North American territory over
which the Hudson's Bay Company had held an, exclusive
'teleaHe h remarkedevery
cvhesdirection,
question t t the
had
until recently been under the government of the Hudson's
Bay Company. That portion of it which lay behind the in-
land sea called Hudson's Bay, and which included the land
drained by the rivers pOuring into that sea, had been given
to the company by a charter of Charles 11. ; but the other
portion, laying.on the western, aside__thajvatershed of the Rocky Mountains, and watered by streams which either
discharged themselves into the Pacific or flowed southwards
towards the United States frontier, was devoted to Indian
occupation, though it had for many years been under the
government of the Hudson's Bay Company in virtue of
their exclusive license to trade. In 1821,an act was passed
which empowered the Crown to grant that license ; and in
1838 the license war renewed for 21 years, and that term
expired on the Ist of May this year. Ilis,rig4 hon. friend
then at the head of the Colonial-office, after giving the
subject his best consideration, decided that it would be in-
expedient to renew the license on the same terms. Great
changes were taking Fdace, year after year, in that region
of the world ; British Columbia had risen to a very consi-
derable position, and Canada itself had acquired a great aug-
mentation of population and wealth. All these conditions
were adverse to the 'renewal of the license. There was a
strong opinion' also, prevailing upon the subject both here
and in Canadaadverse ,to the renewal of the license. It had
therefore been determined not to renew the license, but to
allow it to drop without making any provision for the go-
vernment of those large territories would be very dangerous.
His right lion. friend the late Secretary for the ,Colonies
therefore determined to offer the Hudson's Bay Company the
renewal of their license for one year. The company refused
this, and he then offered it for two years, which the com-
pany declined. On various grounds it was most undesir-
able to re-establish this monopoly for more than two years.
The circumstances under which its first establishment took
place were such as to supply a reason for it which no longer
existed. Without going into the long history of the con-
test between the Hudson's Bay Company and the North-
Western Fur Cempany, in which some blood was spilt and
frequent atrocities were committed, he would observe that
at the period when Parliament was called upon to interpose
for the settlement of that dispute, Canada and the other
British North American' provinces were in a very un-
developed state, and if those vast hunting grounds to the
north-west, divided from Canada by lakes and rivers, and
by an immense interval of space, had been placed under the
Canadian jurisdiction, that jurisdiction would have been
little more than nominal. On the other hand, to have aban-
doned the territory would have been to invite a recurrence
of the old feuds. The exclusive license was therefore bes-
towed on the Hudson's Bay Company. It was now alleged
that by the establishment of that system the Indian tribes
had been preserved. If it had preserved them, however, it
had reduced them to helplessness, and make them depend
upon the company for their very subsistence ; they looked
to the company for their food and clothing, and for all the
necessaries of iife. Great care must therefore be taken, in
any arrangements that might be made, lest the sudden
withdrawal of that, superintendence should prove destruc-
tive to the Indians. It had been said that the Hudson's
Bay Company's license should be maintained for the sake
of the fur trade. He did not underrate the value of the fur
trade, but it should not be the first consideration. He
believed it would be possible, for many years to come, to
devote a great part of the North American Continent ex-
clusively as a hunting-ground for fur-bearing animals, but
he desired to see the more southerly portion, which was
capable of cultivation, properly colonised. The first object,
however, must be to establish as early as possible some
provisional authority to dispense justice in that country,
and to deal with all questions of conflict arising,
whether among the white men themselves, or be-
tween white men and Indians, oramongst the Indians them-
selves. It would also be requisite to enforce the salutary
I regulations under which alone the sale of spirits had been.
allowed. The more serious class of offences should be trans-
ferred to another tribunal, by sending the offenders to take
their trial in one of the neighbouring colonies—British
Columbia, or the Red River Settlement. Officers or magi-
strates might be appointed to reside in different parts of the
country, and although they could not have a large staff at
their disposal, they might be in the same position as her
Majesty's consuls and vice-consuls in the East, and exercise
great influence in the region where they dwelt. He quite
admitted that throughout a great part of these extensive
territories colonisation was impracticable, and would pro-
bably continue to be so, as long as richer and pleasanter
parts of the earth remained for human occupation. But the
report of an officer sent by Mr. Labouchere to examine the
country, and other exploring expeditions made within the
last two years, had shown that from the Red River Settle-
ment to the base of the Rocky Mountains, there existed in
many districts a fertile soil, well timbered, and well watered,
the natural capabilities of which were proved by the fact that
it was the chosen haunt of enormous herds of buffaloes, and
there could be no doubt of its fitness for agricultural occu-
pations. Gold, indeed, had been the chief attraction to draw
population to British Columbia and other new countries; but
wherever nature afforded a fair prospect of reward to encou-
rage the energy of man, there colonisation might be expected
to advance, if it were not precluded by impolitic restrictions.
The noble lord concluded by recapitulating the points which
he had brought forward, namely, the establishment of a line
of stations between Canada on one side and British Columbia
on the other; the establishment of colonies, however small,
which would give to this country undisputed sovereignty on
thenorthemside of theboundary; theestablishmentofatleast
a provisional system of government, and the appointment of
magistrates in the territories to exercise controland adminis-
ter justice, and the application of the hunting grounds to
the purposes for which they were intended. • Above all he
would press on the Government that the privileges of a trad-
ing company should not be allowed to stand in the way of
imperial colonisation.

the Duke of NEWCASTLE said that his noble friend
had made so long and interesting a tour in North Americ
and had travelled so far beyond the limits of the question of
which he had given notice, that he (the Duke of Newcastle)
would probably not be able to reply in detail to all the sub-
jects which had been adverted to. He fully recognised the
importance of the question'as affecting the relations existing
between the Hudson's Bay Companyin the territory between
Upper Canada and British Columbia. He might have al-
leged that he was not prepared so soon after his acceptance
of seals of the Colonial-office to answer the questions
which had been put to him ; but having for many years
turned his attention to the question, he was enabled at once,
and decidedly, to reply to the noble earl; at least twelve
years ago; as a private member of the House of Commons, he
brought forward the subject of the Hudson's Bay Company.
The noble earl, in the latter portion of his speech, had tra-
velled beyond the limits of what was called the licensed
territory, and had encroached on that part of the territory
of the Hudson's Bay Company where they had proprietary
rights under the charter of Charles 11. As negotiations were
pending with the Hudson's Bay Company on the subject of
the charter, the noble earl would no doubt excuse him if he
did not follow him into that part of the question, and
con-
fined himself to the licensed territory between the RockyMountains and-the ocean.- The noble earl asked ifh
Hudson's Bay Come-
etwo years, expired in
fgaruesdirieorned
ppanropyredwhtiochrenheawvinthgellaiscnsefoofrtty.h.
from the noble earl, that he
had been left open until now,
Irejao cod las t
t.
and that the Hudson's Bay Co
haitiethsaot
mpany had not accepted
the offer made to them by the Secretary for the Colonies
of an extension of the license for one or two years more.
He rejoiced at it, both as re rd dth dso s B
Company and in reference ga e e u n a
question; for he believed to others interestedH 'in the
that it etas better that theques-
tion should be settled now than that it should be
suspended for two
the noble earl COn years, and that for the reasons stated by
fleeted with the discovery of gold in Bri-
tish Columbia,and
the extension of colonisation. in that
direction. R
was not his e would state at once to the noble earl that it
8 intention to recommend her Majesty's Govern-
ment t
o extend the license of the Hudson's Bay Company
for any period whatever. That license having expired in
May last, all that remained was to make • •
provision for the
Government of the territory. The noble earl said that if
that was the case, it was desirable that rdgulations should
be established with reference to the trade carried on, and
for securing the relative positions of the settlers and the
natives. For thisspurpose legislation was necessary, but it
need not be of a very complicated character. Powers
might be taken to appoint magistrates who would be au-
thorised to settle disputes and to deal with crimes, and he
proposed in a few days to introduce either into that house
or the House of Commons, a measure for that purpose. It
was not necessary that the magistrates should be sent out
from England, but they might be selected from the best
qualified residents; and they might have summarYy!g alle
given to deal with cases involving small offences, but
offences of a more aggravated description punisbili be ent would
be referred to a higher tribunal ; and
power i-oM.lied
Columbia,
given
to remit such cases either to Canada or to British
a's to lay
It would be necessary also to enable her Indians,
down rules for the regulation of trade with the
in
order to prevent the excesses which might be shown towards
the cessation of the,
from
those people. This would arise
license of the Hudson's Bay Company, and the right of
any private trader to go into the country without any of the
restrictions hitherto imposed by the company. He believed
• the
tly answered questions of the noble
that he had succm
earl. The noble earl had pressed on him one or two other
points, and among them the encouragement of colonisakion
in the northern portion of the Hudson's Bay ConipPiny's
licensed territory, and also on this side of the Rocky Idioun-
tains. He did not think it desirable that ,the govermment
and the Colonial-office should take steps to colbnisa '; their
duty was rather to give every facility to, and to see that no
impediments were placed in the way of, colonisation.. This
led him to a further point raised by the noble earl, 'namely,
the establishment of regular communication between
Canada and Vancouver's Island. The noble earl said that
plans with that object had been under the eontisAeration of