The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-20 00:00:00

him from canvassing the conduct of the Government in re:
ference to such matters, and that the consideration of our
own interests ought to be paramount in the House of Com-
mons. (Cheers.) His hon. friend had omitted to refer to a
very striking expression in the lioniteur representing what
M. Thouvenel called the imperial policy of France. M.
Thouvenel addressed a report to the Emperor in June 1860,
in which he said that the imperial policy was guided not by
ambitious intentions, but by
ise sentiment
prnsreevspeeycatnineeg,,3tt
d h ee
u r— [theadded originalthat
his
was Majesty had obtained that guarantee
future--
from the friendship and gratitude of a sovereign. It was
precisely this system of guarantee which was adopted in the
annexation of Savoy and Nice. M. Thouvenel said that when
important changes were taking place in Europe France was
entitled to that guarantee which was indicated by nature.
There was one short sentence which always occurred in M.
Thouvenel's despatches, which he would read. It was.this,
" We recognise the King of Italy, but French troops will
continue to occupy Rome so long as the interests which
brought France to Rome are not covered by guarantees."
What was the meaning of that ? The words " covered by
guarantees" evidently meant continuous annexations of
different portions of Europe to her dominions. How full
had been the denials of the Sardinian Government on this
question. Three times in the constitutional Chamber at Turin
it was emphatically denied that Sardinia was to be annexed
to France—twice by Count Cavour and once by Baron Rica-
soli. To an interpellation addressed to him in the Sardinian
Chamber in Oct., 1860, Count Cavour said Italy was now
in the hands of statesmen who would give practical effect to
it, and that the great principle of nationality was the corner-
stone of their political edifice, and that it could never be
carried out by the cession of a single spot of the national
territory. But he unhappily said precisely the same thing
as regarded the cession of Savoy and Nice to France. (Hear,
hear.) In March, 1860, at the very moment when the King
of Sardinia made the solemn declaration, on his throne at
Turin, to a deputation from Savoy, that the ties which
bound his destiny to Savoy were too ancient to be rent
asunder, Count Persigny, then French ambassador in this
country, stated that the annexation of Savoy and Nice was
determined upon long before the Italian campaign. Again,
on the Bth of April, 1861, in reply to an interpellation,
Count Cavour gave a most formal denial to the rumours of
an intended cession of the island of Sardinia to France ;
but, unfortunately, the same terms were used in regard to
the cession of Savoy and Nice. (Hear, hear.) The country
required that the Government should not listen to these
verbal denials when they had so many precedents which
showed what was their true value. The other day, in Jane,
1861, Baron Ricasoli made a very remarkable and a very
bold speech in the Sardinian Chambers. He said that the
Government were aiming not only for the defence of the
national territory, but also to complete it, and to restore
" ses limites legitimes." " I have heard speak," be said,
"of a cession of territory, but permit me to repel with pro-
found disdain any such idea." " These words," said the
report, " were spoken with great energy." " The Govern-
ment," he continued, " will not cede an inch of Italian
ground ; no, absolutely, no." These words were followed
by loud applause. If they could believe that Baron Rica-
soli would act up to that statement,they would be satisfied,
but the danger was that he would eventually fall into the
toils of the French Emperor, that he would be unable'to
resist the propaganda now being carried on in the beautiful
island of Sardinia. He believed that he and his hon.
friend had proved that these expressions were not to
be trusted, and he urged her Majesty's Govern-
ment to be active and vigilant in the matter. He had ven-
tured to approve the noble lord's policy of non-interven-
tion in the affairs of Italy, and if that policy had not
answered all their expectations the fault was not
with them. That Italy was not tranquil was solely owing
to the presence at Rome of the French army. (Hear, hear.)
That army was maintained there not for the purpose of
protecting the liberties of Italy or the authority of the Pope,
but solely for the purpose of ensuring to the French Em-
peror some ultimate guarantee by the cession of territory at
Sardinia or elsewhere. Rumour said that the noble lord
the Foreign Secretary was about to leave the house for an-
other place. He was sure he expressed the opinion of every
gentleman in the house when he said that by that removal
the house would lose one of its greatest ornaments. (Cheers.)
But on public grounds he did hope that the country would
not be deprived of the services of such an enlightened and
experienced minister as the noble lord in the office of Foreign
Secretary. He did not like to hear so much as they some-
times heard of the disinclination of this country to go to
war. The noble lord the other day told a deputation that,
although it was quite true that Spain had acted with great
insincerity, and given ample cause of war, he doubted whether
the House of Commons would respond to a call for war
upon those grounds. He quite concurred with the noble
lord in that doubt, but why should their indisposition to go
to war be, constantly published. God forbid that they
should ever go to war on trivial grounds, but they must all
know that the force of a Government depended, not upon
first courting and then avoiding war, but upon the dignity
of its policy by which it avoided the possibility of war.
That was the course he wished to see followed by the Go-
vernment. If we manfully maintained the policy that we
thought best for the country, there was no reason why we
should immediately fly to arms to vindicate our position.
He hoped the vigilant attention of the Government would
not be withdrawn from this subject. The island of Sardinia
u as included in the great national movement of Italian
liberty. Her Majesty's Government had acknowledged
the Kingdom of Italy, and the cession of Sardinia to
France would be an infringement of the principles upon
which that acknowledgment had been made, a contradiction
to the principles of Italian unity, and an outrage and an in-
sult upon Italian independence. (Hear.) He asserted, more-
over, that England would be obliged to interfere to prevent
the cession of Sardinia to France if it were to be attempted,
and he took the libel.ty to tell Victor Emmanuel, as a man
who took a deep interest in the progress of Italian liberty,
that if that island should be ceded to France, the cession
would strike such a blow to the maritime power and the
legitimate commercial influence of this country, that it
would have the effect of alienating from Victor Emmanuel
the confidence and sympathy which the people and the Go-
vernment of this country had hitherto manifested for the
interests of Italian independence. (Cheers.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE was delighted to hear from the
hon. baronet and the hon. gentleman that they thought the
question of the cession of Sardinia was an important one to
this country. These foreign questions ought to be viewed
in their bearing upon English interests. The hon. gentle-
man and the hon. baronet had urged that there was a secret
understanding between Count Cavour and the French Go-
vernment that Savoy should be ceded to France. Count
Cavour's conduct must therefore have been most extraordi-
nary, and he marvelled at the eulogium passed the other
day upon Count Cavour by the hon. gentleman. Did the
hon. baronet go to the full extent of the policy shadowed
forth by Baron Ricasoli in his late speech ?
Sir R. PEEL—I do decidedly.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that Baron Ricasoli, in his
speech, had referred to Rome and Venice, and had concluded
by saying—we will go to Rome hand in hand with France.
The hon. baronet, must, therefore, approve of that policy,
but he should like to know what was the opinion of her
Majesty's Government respecting it. He fully believed in
the existence of a secret understanding between France and
Italy with respect tD the cession. He dwelt upon the dis-
turbed state of the south of Italy, and said every care should
be taken to prevent the peace of Europe from being broken.
He wanted to know what advice was being given at the
present moment by the British Government to the Sardinian
Government, and what was their distinct opinion with re-
spect to the policy of the Sardinian Government.
Mr. BENTINCK said that Europe was now in a state of
armed truce. The disturbing influences at work were as great
as ever, and they had been much aggravated by the principles
of international law which had of late been laid down, and
continual questions of annexation were arising. He believed
that if a more vigorous, consistent, and intelligible line of
policy had been followed by the Government, they would
have heard no more of this question of the annexation of
Sardinia. The noble lord at the head of the Government
and the Foreign Secretary had attacked Lord Derby's Go-
vernment on the ground that their policy had weakened the
alliance with France and shown too great a preference for
Austria, but it had since turned out that France, not Aus-
tria, was the aggressive power, and the noble lord (Palmer-
ston) had been obliged, in a celebrated speech, to declare his
distrust of France, and to admit that he had been deceived
by her. He attributed much of the mischief that had been
done to the despatches of the noble lord (J. Russell), espe-
cially that of the 29th Oct., in which he opened the door to
every species of aggression and spoliation. If the treaty of
Villafranca had been executed, Savoy and Nice would not
have been handed over to France. The noble lord would
not, to prevent that accessicn, consent to the use of force ;
but he had not acted consistently, because he did not object
to force being used to subjugate Naples. Everything be-
tween France and Sardinia wasa subject of mystery. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord had received notice from M. Thcu-
venel that as the treaty of Villafranca had not been fully
carriedrior t
y.
he
out, France would require a further accession of
appearedter-
It
principle of
theto
ballot-box
him th at t h ewnoble e lord
decide
the
fate
admitted
that
of
nations. (Hear.)
ere the ballot-box
he
wase
on hopedtoen stop,
el l
he
eivnse inobledetaarp:ohvhi
that
tatle orsch:.rh)ediFaww7ooanuunell
and
give the house de
(HearN
full information
was in occupation of Coasica, Nice, c
Rome, and he believed not one of these places would be
given up by the French Government. (
Mr. STIRLING thought the hon. member for Bridge-
water deserved the thanks of the house for bringing this
question forward. When the hon. member made his state.
had proven
butvea everything
to
be
true,
and
let-
ters
ments last yfar, it was said they were nct well founded, and
tlahtetehrflTn.tlmmetnb ei
they
must have been passing between the noble lord the
Foreign Minister and Lord Cowley just at the time when
r then were
stated premature;
those dubious answers were given by the noble lord. And
at that time nothing was too contemptible or presumptuous
to state against the Government of Lord Derby. (Hear.)
But what had been done during the past two years ? Why,
Franco had entered into a treaty of commerce with England
for ten years, and France had acquired in perpetuity a large
tract of m:.,,,intaltions country and sea coast on the Mediter-
ranean, which w0u:,4., be Useful in enabling her to develope
her great resources at Toulon. 'Would 018 noble lord and
his colleagues allow the French Government to take pos-
session of the island of Sardinia ? If any attempt of the
kind were made the Government ought in cligtinct terUi;

odium of being considered one of the detective force em-
ployed in such a cause. Pursuing the analogy, he might
say that the gentleman who was constructing these com-
mittees of annexation was a gentleman well known to the
police, for he was no other than M. Pietri—the very man
who conducted the universal suffrage system organised in
Savoy and Nice. (Hear, hear.) Leaving Sardinia and
Turin, and coming to Paris, he found that towards the
close of the session one of the bureaus was engaged in con-
sidering what we should here term the naval estimates. It
was remarked by one of the deputies that they were so
enormous that the ports of France would be clearly insuffi-
cient for the reception of so great anavy. The representative
of the Government thereupon stated that that was very
true, but France was engaged in negotiations which would
have the effect of putting her in possession of additional
ports in the Mediterranean. He would like the noble lord
the Foreign Secretary to inform the house, if he could, what
ports those could be if they were not those of the island of
Sardinia. One other fact still remained to be told. An in-
quiry had been ordered into the capacity of the port of
Cagliari for vessels of war. Now he thought, taking all
these matters into consideration, that he had succeeded in
showing, if not that an agreement existed, at least that
there were most serious grounds of apprehension and
anxiety. (Hear, hear.) Not long since Baron Ricasoli
had addressed to the Sardinian Chambers a speech declar-
ing that not an inch of Italian soil should ever be ceded
by him. He (Mr. Kinglake) believed that almost at the
same time renewed and positive. denials were male by
the French government to her Majesty's government of any
intention to annex the island of Sardinia, and that those
denials succeeded in inducing a complete belief that no such
intention did exist. Under these circumstances he believed
the idea was for the time really adjourned, and not wishing
to create any unnecessary disturbance by any discussion in
that house, he had refrained from bringing the question
forward. But it seemed that no sooner had the denials of
Baron Ricasoli and the French government had the desired
effect than the same process that was pursued last year in
reference to Nice and Savoy was again resorted to. The
French government returned to its enterprise, and the
Patrie, an organ of the government, published a distinct
rebuke addressed to Baron Ricasoli for venturing to say
that he would not cede one inch of Italian soil. The
honourable gentleman then quoted the article in
the Patrie. He believed the matter did not end
here, for unless he was very much mistaken, M.
Thouvenel addressed an official note to Baron Ricasoli
complaining of the fact that he had repudiated the idea of
ceding territory to France. Beyond this, however, the
spirit in which the French government was disposed to act
in
this matter was well laid down in the Revue Contempo-
rain, a paper which had not only been founded and sub-
sidised by the French government, but which evidently
received its inspirations from the same source. That paper
said France hoped to possess some day the island of
Sardinia, which was mere French than Italian. The
article went on to say that the French government would
not refusef:Sardinia, if it were courteously offered,
especially if the people on being consulted were to answer
as unanimously as in the annexation of Savoy and Nice.
M. Fietri, however, discharged his duty so efficiently in the
case of Savoy and Nice, that the number of votes in favour
of annexation considerably exceeded the whole number of
voters, and no doubt if this annexation of Sardinia were
carried out, he would again discharge that duty with unfail-
ing energy and success. (Hear.) He thought he had said
enough to justify that anxiety on the subject which he had
endeavoured to convey to the house. It was unsafe to rely
in regard to this matter upon the moderation of France.
Ho did not believe that when the Emperor of the French
used moderate expressions he always misrepresented him-
self. On the contrary, he thought there were times when
the Emperor desired that things should pass off as quietly
as possible, but the truth of the matter was that having en-
gaged in transactions of this kind he always succeeded in
interesting a number of other persons in his schemes, and
though personally willing to recede, he was driven forward
by his own ideas fermenting in the minds of other men.
He proceeded to the annexation of Savoy and Nice upon
the suggestion addressed to him by a mere soldier, not of a
very character, and not competent to advise him on the state
of affairs. On his mere suggestion that his credit with the
army would be imperilled if this transaction did not take
place, he at once gave way. Now, if a similar suggestion
were addressed to him -by the French navy—and nothing
was more probable—in favour of the annexation of Sar-
dinia, it was absolutely necessary that he should be sustained
in his determination to resist any such appeal by the care
tainty as to the light in which such cession would be regarded
by this country. We must not trust either the moderation
of France or the firmness of Baron Ricasoli, or any other
Italian gentleman. A firmer or more honourable man than
Baron Ricasoli did not exist, but he very much doubted
whether he had yet come into the full possession of all
the humiliation which awaited him as legatee of Count
Cavour. He did not yet know all that Count Cavour,
had agreed to do. (Hear.) It was to be hoped that Sardinia'
would never be annexed to France. He did not believe that
the noble lord at the head of the Government would ever
let history say of him, that whilst he was Prime Minister
in a time of peace there was endured such a displacement of
the naval power of the countries of Europe as should be
grievously prejudicial to England, endanger her communi-
cation by way of the Mediterranean, and make a great stride
towards placing France in possession of that control of the
.Mediterranean which had been the main object of the Bona-
partist policy. (Cheers.) The hon. member then moved for
copies of additional correspondence which might have passed
respecting the cession to France of the island of Sardinia.
Sir R. PEEL, in seconding the motion, said he could well
understand the grounds which had induced his hon. friend
to bring the question under the notice of Parliament before
the close of the session, because it was quite evident from
the repeated denials respecting the alleged cession of Sardi-
nia to France, that there was and must have been some
foundation for the apprehensions which alarmed Italy and
Europe, and England in particular. This was a question
which directly affected this country. It affected the power
of England, inasmuch as it was to be looked upon in a dif-
ferent light from the annexation of last year. England pro-
tested as one of the great powers of Europe against the an-
nexation of Savoy and Nice, but she was not directly con-
cerned in the matter. As regarded the buccaneeringannexa-
tion of St. Domingo, it was quite evident that America's
misfortune was Spain's opportunity, but the cession of the
island of Sardinia affected this country immediately. It
was a matter of the greatest possible importance to us, and
if there were grounds for these apprehensions, and if this
annexation were accomplished, it would strike the most
severe blow against the maritime power and legitimate in-
fluence of England which had been inflicted for 50 years.
That naval supremacy for which Nelson and other great
men fought, bled, and conquered, would be imperilled,
and the position which every English Government had taken
up was that the independence of the island of Sardinia was
essentially necessary for the commercial interests and the
naval power of Great Britain. Sardinia was the largest
island in the Mediterranean. It was larger than Sicily.
(Mr. Roebuck—No.) He quoted from a book lately pub-
lished, but at all events its position was most remarkable.
It spread down from Corsica to the centre of the Mediter-
ranean ; it was half •way between France, Spain, Italy, and
the coast of Barbary. It was the half-way house for France,
and bad two magnificent ports—Maddaleni on the north,
and Cagliari on the south. The language of Nelson on the
subject could not be too emphatically impressed on her Ma •
jesty's Government. Nelson wrote to Lord St. Vincent in
Dec., 1803. He said " Sardinia was the finest island in the
Medi erranean, that its harbours were fit for arsenals, and
capacious enough for the whole navy." Again, in 1804, he
wrote " Sardinia is worth 100 Maltas. It has the finest
man-of-war harbour in Europe." In the same year he wrote
another letter to Lord Hobart, in which he said " Sardinia
is the sumraum bonum of everything valuable to us in the
Mediterranean." These opinions of Lord Nelson were cal-
culated to cause serious apprehension as to the dangers re-
sulting to this country if Sardinia were seized by France.
But there was something in the way—there wore treaties.
littlewhich
value ; but there was a distinct treaty reemlation
thetethrebatoyunodf
Lthoendisolnantdeowf
hSiaerhdiFnriaanteoeS, aEvnogyianldn:Hl7o2lola,nbdy:
Savoy, and Saaoradiintiwa:waeeredpdarties, Spain gave up the island
of Sardinia,
Sicily, which she holde e to Savoy, and Savoy gave up
Naples, which thou underbecame
e the
.treaty of Utrecht, to
was
canfirtethede
bkingdom of the. Two
wantyedthe treaty of Vienna,
I Sicilies. This treaty
but the Emperor of the French I
of Vienna. He demanded that satisfacttioonof annul
Europe, the treaty
he hoped Europe would not interfere. This treaty
wrtsoawnd
over, the charter paper of Europe, and without the consentil
of the great powers, they could not allow one power to mo-
nopolise the authority of doing all this, There was only one
gentleman in that house who supported the policy of Louis
Napoleon, He referred to the hon. member for Birmingham
who blew hie trumpet so loud the other night at the Man-
sion-house, and he regretted his absence on the present oc-
casion, as he was very anxious to address some observations
to him. He was the only man in the house who applauded
the conduct of Louis Napoleon. He heard with pain and
grief the hon. member say " Perish Savoy," and that the
possession of Savoy was worthless. Later in the year he
said the map of Europe as regarded the limitation of states
was not worth one moment's consideration. He (Sir it. Peel)
never heard before such a socialist view of the rights of the
people. (Hear, hear.) Happily it was not shared in by the
people of this country who wished to maintain that balance
of power which was just, legitimate, and honourable.
(Hear.) They were dealing with a sovereign who was a i
subtle and designing man, and it was continued watchful-
ness of his proceedings that he would urge upon her Ma-
jesty's Government. He asked the Government whether
they had any just and legitimate grounds for apprehension
in regard to this matter? He should be inclined to accept
the denials which had been given but fur the repeated proofs
they had of the principles of =Lien which influenced not
only Louis Napoleon, but the Imperial policy of France.
The unfortunate position of affairs in Europe at that ow-
ment was a confirmation of the danger which resulted from
the policy of Louis Napoleon, and was their justification
for bringing the matter une•eler the notice of Parliament, In
1814, xvhen animosities arose between France and
Morocco, the Government of that day urged sspon the House
of Corlimons the necessity of not alluding to that question,
which agitated the public mind. Lord Palmerston said that
so far from being tongue-tied, no considerations arising
from persons or parties in foreign countries should debar

THE SUN, LONDON,' SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 20, 1861.

to tell France that such accession would not be allowed.
(Hear, hear.) And such a course on the part of the French
Emperor would create throughout Europe the greatest dis-
trust and suspicion. (Hear, hear.) Had it not been that
the treaty of commerce was entered into at the time of the
trick (he could call it no better name) in reference to Savoy
and Nice, he should have said it laid us under some obli-
gations to France. But in addition to these things, did
they not owe to the Emperor of the French the Russian
war, and their present great expenses for the navy and the
army ? He thought that France cost this country some-
thing like fifteen or sixteen millions a year, and they ought
to ask the question, how long this game of beggar my
neighbour was to go on. He hoped the noble lord would
firmly and decidedly oppose this cession of the island of
Sardinia, and that those naval armaments, which we were
now bound to maintain and keep up, might some day be
used to prevent a balance of power in the Mediterranean.
Lord J. RUSSELL--I must say 1 think the hon. gentle-
man who has just spoken shows a very considerable forget-
fulness of facts. In the first place, with regard to Savoy
and Nice, it was during the Government of Lord Derby
that my hon. friend the member for Bridgewater informed
me that he had received information to the effect that in
return for the assistance the Emperor gave to Sardinia in
the war with Austria the provinces of Savoy and Nice were
to be yielded to France. Did I urge him to bring that as an
accusation against Lord Derby's Government ? What lad •
vised him to do was to go to Lord Malmesbury, and apprise
him of the information he had received. He did see Lord
Malmesbury, who made inquiries on the subject at Paris;
but if Lord Derby's Government had thought that it was a
question on which England ought to go to war with France
it was for Lord Malmesbury to declare that resolution on the
part of Lord Derby's Government. Lord Malmesbury did
not take any such course. And when the war was impend-
ing Lord Derby and Lord Malmesbury were quite unable,
although they made efforts in that direction, to prevent that
war from taking place. Dlcl my noble friend and I re-
proach the Government of the day for the course they pur •
sued ? These were arguments that might have been used
to show that the efforts of the British Government might
have averted that war ; but it seemed to me that it would
not have been just to say that any recommendations could
prevail in that state of things, and accordingly 1 never
uttered a word of reproach of Lord Malmesbury, in con-
sequence of the course which the Government then took.
I think all the time we were in opposition with reference
to foreign affairs my noble friend and I shewed very great
forbearance in regard to the conduct of Lord Derby's
Government. 1 have always said in this house and to this
day I am ready to say that I think Lord Malmesbury was
a very efficient Minister of Foreign Affairs, and that the
general course of his policy was a right policy to pursue.
(Opposition cheers.) Both in this house and before my
constituents I defended the course of neutrality he pursued
in regard to the war. There were some things said bt Lord
Derby at the beginning of the war which I did not approve,
and those words were explained away in a speech made by
Lord Derby at the Mansion-house. I have nothing to re-
proach myself with in the course I pursued in regard to
his Government. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman who
spoke last but one has certainly somewhat mistaken the
facts, because he said that, although I talked of the
invalidity of universal suffrage in regard to Savoy and
Nice, I never said a word as to the invalidity of uni-
versal suffrage in regard to Naples and Sicily; and therefore
there was inconsistency on my part. Now, if the hon. gen-
tleman will refer to my despatch upon that subject to Sir J.
Hudson, he will find that I distinctly stated that, with re-
spect to Naples, Sicily, Umbria, and the Marshes, the
taking of the votes by universal suffrage " appeared to have
little validity," and I went on to show that they had little
validity. If gentlemen will come forward and enter into
long disquisitions for the purpose of attacking the foreign
policy of the Government, they should take a little more
care and not state as facts what are totally remote from the
real truth. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the main object of
this debate it is, no doubt, a very important one. (Hear.)
With regard to the question of Sardinia, I entirely admit
the importance of that island, and I have in despatches
repeatedly expressed my opinion that the annexation
of the island of Sardinia to France would be 'a great dis-
turbance of the territorial distribution of power in Europe
—(hear)—and would affect the distribution of power in the
Mediterranean. It may be an object of desire and ambition
to an ambitious power; but I must put in the balance the
consequences—the very grave consequences which would
follow from any attempt on the part of France to annex
the Island of Sardinia. It is not a transaction which could
take place merely between the Emperor of the French
and the King of Sardinia. It must put an end at once
to any intimate alliance between this country and
France. (Loud cheers.) At the same time I must say
it is not my opinion that the Government of the Em-
peror of the French will attempt to annex the Island
of Sardinia, seeing the grave consequences that would
ensue. What has happened in the present spring is nearly
as follows :—About the month of April, I think, there ap-
peared in a journal published at Cagliari an intimation that
French agents were active in the Island of Sardinia. Soon
after that there followed a despatch sent by Sir James Hud-
son, from her Majesty's Consul in the Island of Sardinia,
saying that he believed there were French agents busy in
the island, although he had not, I think, then any very
accurate details on the subject. Further inquiries were

directed to be made, and the inquiries so made by the consul,
who has been many years there and is a most intelligent
man, conveyed very conflicting information. There was one
person described as having been to several places and having
spoken of the benefits to be derived to the island from annex-
tion to France Other accounts stated that no such attempts
had been made ; and men who knew the island said that very
few persons indeed had been spoken to on the subject. Then
there came what might naturally have been expected--an
appeal, firstly, to the Government of Turin with respect
to these rumours. They were in the first instance denied by
a telegraphic message from Count Cavour. Soon after Count
Cave ties death Baron Ricasoli stated emphatically what has
been read as part of his speech, but he stated it verbally to
Sir J. Hudson—viz., that Italy had no intention of yield-
ing an inch of her territory ; that there was territory which
ought to belong to Italy which did not belong to her, but
that there was no territory which she possessed that she was
ready to give up. (Cheers.) My hon. friend who brought
forward this subject said that when Baron Ricasoli spoke of
Italy and of Italian soilhe might not have included the island

of Sardinia. At the same time my hon. friend stated his belief

that Baron Ricasoli is a man of character and of honour—
(hear, hear)—and that he would not violate his word.
Sir, all that I know of Baron Ricasoli, of whom, although I
have had a very slight personal acquaintance with him
myself, I have heard others speak who have had much in-
timacy with him, confirms that description. He is a man,
perhaps somewhat proud in his manner, less conciliatory in
his bearing than Count Cavour ; but he is a man of the
highest honour, the highest patriotism, with an honest am-
bition to acquire a name in Europe by contributing to the
establishment of the independence of his country. (Hear,
hear.) But if he said he would not give up an inch of
Italian soil, and was afterwards found engaging in in-

trigues with the view of transferring the Island of
Sardinia to France, I should say that he was one
of the meanest equivocators that ever existed. (Cheers.)
Equivocaticn, I am convinced, forms no part of his
character, and that such a thing would never enter the

head or be shown in the conduct of Baron Ricasoli.
(Hear, hear.) We have always spoken of the soil of Italy
as of course including the island of Sardinia, and have never
had a contradiction to that statement. Well, I believe the
Baron Ricasoli does not intend to give up the island of Sar-
dinia. On the other hand, when we have applied, as we were
bound to do, tJ the Government of France on the subject,
they have not only given the most positive contradiction to
the rumour, but when M. lhouvenel was told that there
were French agents, perhaps busy voluntary agents, in that
island, he said he would write at once to the consul to dis-
avow any such agency—to put an end to any such meddling
there. (A laugh.) Well, an hon. gentleman has asked
what is the use of obtaining denials. Why, I think,
if I had not asked the Governments of France and of Italy
what was the truth with regard to those rumours I should
have been accused, and very properly accused, of neglect-
ing my duty in that respect. (Hear.) Sir, I admit—one
must admit—that in the present state of Europe, and seeing
what has passed during the last three or four years, it
would be very unwise in the Government of this country,
very unwise also in the Parliament of this country, to rest
in a blind confidence that there would be no aggressions, no
annexations, no ambitious projects entertained. (Hear.)
The Emperor of the French is very powerful. Everybody
sees the great power that he has. But, at the same time, if
it was his intention, as I believe it is his intention, to pre •
serve the peace of Europe and remain upon the most
friendly terms with England, I am not at all sure—l cannot
rest in any perfect confidence that the state of public opinion
in France, that the state of opinion in the French Cham-
bers or in the French army, might not in a most sudden
manner alter the whole policy of the Government. (Cheers.)
That has happened with past sovereigns of France, and I
think we should be very unwise if we thought we had a
security that it should not happen again ; and, therefore,
what my hon. friend the member for Bridgewater said—and
the hon. baronet the member for Tamworth spoke in the
same tone—was that there were two things which we ought
to do :—ln the first place we ought to be very watchful
with regard to the events which are taking place in Europe.
(Hear.) Those events, be it remarked, are not altogether
connected with the policy of Sovereigns and of Courts ; it
isnot merely that this Sovereign has shown too much am-
bition and another has disregarded treaties. There is much
more in the condition of Europe than that statement of
itself wculd imply. There are great movements going on
in differents pirts of Europe of which the rnovament in
Italy was perhaps only the first great movement of popular
bodies and of whole nations discontented with the Govern-
ments under which they have lived, asking for better
forms of government, and looking out for aid by which
they may obtain them. Why, what results from such a
state of things ?
What but uneasiness, proceeding perhaps
to civil convulsions, to insurrection, to wars, and producing
changes of sovereignty and of possession among the Powers
of Europe. Well, then, I say that that alone, without im-
puting ti any Sovereign designs hostile to Great Britain,
roeusgphecttttot, beve.iNvryatecvhefl,
that•tvh y
tt
41
oys sphi
ao no
el di
nb e
rgoi
pl vigilant wn
and
t hI
that alone is a reason why the Government of this country
nt
Bu
trust that neither my noble friend nor I have our eyes en-
tirely shut to that which is going on around us, and that 11

we shall not idly neglect the interests of this country when-
ever they m2y be threatened with injury. (Cheers.) At
the same time, to be continually expressing suspicion, to be ,
making the whole state of peace uneasy, would, I think, be
not only a puerile, but a very mischievous policy. It ought
to be our endeavour and has been our endeavour, wherever
these threats of war occur, rather to compose the differences
which exist and strive to reconcile those among whom dis-
cord is arising, and promote peace between them. The hon.
baronet who spoke second in this debate bas alluded more
than once to the question between Spain and Morocco. Our
endeavours have been directed on the one hand to inducing
the Sultan of Morocco to keep faith with the kingdom of
Spain, and on the other hand to inducing the Spanish Go-
vernment to press their advantages is such a manner as may
make reconciliation possible. And when gentlemen speak in
a tone, as if Spain was constantly acting in a spirit of agree-
sion and that the Spanish policy must be confounded with
French policy, I must own that my view is a very different
one. (Hear, hear.) I think it should be our policy to favour
and encourage the spirit of independence which prevails
among the various nations of Europe. (Hear.) And there
does prevail among the Spanish people as high a feeling of
independence as that which exists in any other continental
country. In the last century, owing to the War of the Suc-
cession, there was a family alliance between France and
Spain, and whenever you found yourselves at war with France
you also found that a war with Spain immediately followed ;
but there is no such family connexion at present. Spain,
which has been long weak, is recovering her strength ; and
that she should take her fitting part and fitting place among
the Powers of Europe is a thing not to be checked and dis-
couraged by Great Britain, but is rather a matter to be
fostered by Great Britain as long as her own honour and
interests are not interfered with by that Power. My be-
lief is that both the Queen of Spain and her Prime Minister
are favourably disposed towards this country. I have al-
ways
endeavoured to assure them that we have no wish in-
consistent
with the greatness and dignity of Spain, and
that they might rely on our friendship on any question in
which they may be concerned. Look again at Italy. Gen-
tlemen are very fond of representingltaly as a mere follower
and vassal of France, and after her long contest with Aus-
tria she owes much to the army by which she was enabled
to obtain a victory that she could never otherwise have ac-
complished. (Hear.) But notwithstanding these obliga-
tions there are many matters in which she must rely upon
her own spirit, and to the hand of her own sons she must
owe her real independence. It is they who, like Harmo-
dius in giving liberty to Greece, must, in the noble lines of
Word sworth,—
" Give the gift which is not to be given
By all the blended powers of earth or heaven."

It is not in the power of France to make Italy ; it is she
herself who, by her own strength and patience and wisdom
must build up her independence, and if she does not do so,
all the Powers in Europe cannot do it for her. (Cheers.)
What we have done has not been to assist in this work, but
to require that other Powers should not prevent it from being
accomplished ; and the Emperor of the French has held the
same language with regard to intervention, he would not
allow foreign Powers to interfere in Italy. But while such
has been hi 3 policy, there has been among the subjects—per-
haps in an even greater degree among those who are opposed
to his dynasty—a feeling that the creation of an independent
Kingdom of Italy, with many millions of subjects, pursuing
its own policy and following out its own destiny, was
an obstacle to the greatness of France. You trace that feel-
ing in speeches, and in all the pamphlets and publications
in France ; they hold that it is a mistake for France to
assist in forming a strong Italy. That I hold to be a great
mistake on the part of French politicians—(hear)---and I
believe that the jealousy which is thus shown will diminish
the influence which France naturally possesses in Italy.
But still it is not now in the power of France to prevent the
kingdom of Italy from being constituted, and when it is
constituted we shall have an additional security for the
liberties and independence of Europe. (Hear, hear.) It was
one of the recommendations addressed to us in the course
of this debate that we should be watchful with regard to all
changes which might take place in Europe. With that re-
commendation I perfectly agree ; we should be to blame if
we did not act in that spirit. The hon. gentleman and the
hon. baronet added another recommendation, that while
great armaments were going on in Europe we should not
disarm. That piece of advice I consider as sound as the
other. (Hear.) It is a great misfortune for England, and it
is a great misfortune for Europe, that such costly arma-
ments should be kept up in time of peace; but we should
not remedy that if we were to disarm—(general cries of
"Hear, hear")—and to leave other nations to increase their
preparations. I trust that no shortsighted view of our inte-
rests, no narrow spirit of saving with regard to any particu-
lar tax, will induce this country, in the present state of
Europe and the world, to maintain a navy and an army
which are not adequate in all respects tO the position we
ought to occupy. (Loud cheers, especially from the Opposi-
tion benches.) Not merely the greatness, but the very safety
of this country is concerned in her state of preparation. So
far from increasing the probability of war, as some have
thought, I believe the knowledge that this country is strong
is not only advantageous for our interests, but is a weapon
in the hand of every other power that seeks for independence
and for liberty. (Hear.) The knowledge that this country is
able, and in a just cause is ready to assume the offensive, at
the same time that she prizes the blessings which result
from peace and the prosperity of her own commerce and
manufacture, is, I believe, a guarantee for the independence
of nations, and a security at the same time for the peace of
Europe. (Hear, hear.) And now, sir, let me add, in the
same spirit in which I have spoken—that of discounte-
nancing needless and irritating suspicions—that I think it
my duty not to agree with the motion for the production of
papers at the present moment. When the Government
think that any public benefit can be gained by the produc-
tion of papers on this subject they will not hesitate to do
so; but I hope the house will confide so far in us as to be-
lieve that we shall not neglect any opportunity of meeting
in the proper manner any dangers which may arise.
(Cheers.)

Mr. STANSFELD expatiated at considerable length
upon the policy which, in his opinion, the kingdom of Italy
should pursue—a national policy, apart frcm any foreign
alliance—and explained the basis upon which that policy
should rest.

Sir G. BOWYER condemned the foreign policy of the
Government; he considered that it was accommodated to
the state of parties in this country and to the securing of
votes, and that its effect had been to lay Italy at the feet of
France. He was glad to see the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer looking at him—(laughter)—because he was the chief
offender in this respect. The hon. member gave a fearful
picture of what he represented to be the present condition
of Southern Italy.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am
bound to acknowledge without delay the compliment my
hon. friend has paid me. He has gone so far as to designate
me to the house under what I consider the highly honour-
able title of the chief offender. If I thought my hon. friend
really knew who are the revolutionary party in Italy, I
should disclaim his compliment, but I am glad to be called
the chief offender in promoting the designs of those he de-
signates the revolutionary party—(hear)—for they are, in
my conviction, the friends alike of freedom and of order.
(Hear, hear.) But my honourable friend does me a great
deal more than justice—he calls me the chief offender in
the presence of my two noble friends, whose influence,
authority, experience, and services entitle them to the
withering denunciations—(a laugh)—of my hon. friend op-
I posite in a far higher degree than I can ever possibly aspire
to. But if we are to speak of the true revolutionary party—
'if we are to speak of the agencies which produce disorder in
states and disgrace society, then I tell my hon. friend who
is the chief agent of the revolutionary party, and who has
done the most to favour it—it is himself—(cheers) and those
whose cause he so consistently, and so courageously, and at
the same time in manner and temper so inoffensively re-
commends to us—they it is who have been the great pro-
moters of the revolutionary movements and agencies in
Italy. The hon. member deals with matters of fact, and
partly with matters of argument. His matters of fact are
these—that all the people of Southern Italy are repenting
of what they have done in permitting and taking part in
the ejection of the Bourbon family. And my hon. friend
comes and claims as usual implicit reception for his facts,
though they are in entire contradiction to the papers lately
laid on the table, which contain no indication whatever of
this popular sentiment. (Hear, hear.) But my hon. friend
is perfectly ready with his remedy, which is to denounce
the papers written by the diplomatists of England as the
productions of understrappers and underlings, and calcu-
lated to blind the country. He therefore asks us to accept
his unsupported assertions without evidence to credit them,
in direct opposition to those statements which we receive
from authorised agents of the executive government. Then
what was his main argument ? Because you have taken
an active part by giving your moral support, because you
have induced the Italian people to regulate their own con-
cerns, by this atrocious act of conspiring in favour of the
liberties of that oppressed nation, you have forfeited all
right and title to contribute anything to the balance of
power and to the maintenance of the peace of Europe.
That was the pith of the argument of my hon. friend. I
think that if the hon. member for Bridgewater (Mr. King-
lake) had heard the speech of the hon. gentleman, and the
compliments that had been paid to him, he would have
listened to them with a sort of chilled sensation. (A laugh.)
The hon. member does, I think, occasionally take a gloomy
and suspicious view of the progress of events in Europe.
But I confess that if there are any indications that grave
and serious event was contemplated—l mean the cession of
Sardinia to France, such indications of a trustworthy nature
are unknown to me. Then I must allude to what fell from
my hon. friend on the subject of the French alliance. When
he finds the Government of England conspiring with the
Government of France for unworthy purposes, then let
him denounce the alliance; but I venture to think that one
of the merits of the alliance is that it can never be turned to
unworthy purposes. For whenever one country attempts
to substitute selfish and aggressive purposes for those which
are conducive to the general good, at that moment the other
country is sure to become the first witness against it, and
the rupture or weakening of that alliance will tend to its
destruction. But, in point of fact, whx is, the hon. member
for Dundalk so jealon,a ef can alliance ? If England
continued to troops to Rome, or to maintain the liour.
bons at Naples, with what show of demonstration would he
trumpet forth the
le wonderful merits of the French aliance.
His censure amounts to this. It i a clear and certain de_ •
Plontstration that the effects, of t.lle sllishce are vn the wilolo