The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-09 00:00:00

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then resolved itself into a Committee of Sup-
ply
on the Navy Estimates.
Lord C. PAGET said he rose under some difficulty to
propose the consideration of the navy estimates, which were
unusually large. At all times it would be somewhat diffi-
cult for a gentleman who had been only a few days in office
in the department of the Admiralty at once to take up the
estimates of the session ; but, over and above that, it hap-
pened that the navy estimates on this occasion were of a
character more than ordinarily complicated. Many of the
items were, in fact, not only original estimates, but had ex •
traordinary estimates attached to them, and supplementary
estimates on the top of all. The committee would, therefore,
have to take into consideration three distinct classes of esti-
mates. Under these circumstances, he hoped he might
claim the indulgence of the committee. (Cheers from both
sides.) If he failed in giving a proper explanation of the
several items, the committe, he was sure, would feel that
it was not from any want of desire to give every possible
information in his power, but from the simple fact of his
not having yet had time to make himself thoroughly
acquainted with the subject. (Hear.) Before he proceeded
to plunge into the mass of figures he held in his hand, he
thought the committee would be interested, and that he
himself would only be doing his duty, if he endeavoured in
a few words to make them acquainted with the state of our
naval forces at the present time. He desired to show what
force we had for the defence of our coasts if any unfortunate
circumstance arose which, having regard to the honour of
the country, should involve us in a war. He wished to show
what we possessed in efficient ships, what we also pos-
sessed in reserve, and what we possessed in ships building,
and for which engines were being constructed ; in a word,
to show what the state of our naval property was at the
present moment. He -would first of all allude to the ships
we had in commission. It would be for the committee to
decide what constituted a proper defence of our coasts. His
hon. and gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C.
Napier), he thought, was of opinion that we ought never,
under any circumstances, to be without a very strong force
actually in the Channel. (" Hear hear," from Sir C.
Napier.) Others thought it was much more advantageous
that what-we called our home squadron should not be con-
fined to those narrow waters, but should cruise in the Bay
of Biscay, which would afford it a larger field of operations.
That was a matter which the committee would decide for
themselves ; but in his humble opinion he thought they
might consider ships of war anywhere in the Mediterranean
or along the coasts of Portugal as to all intents and pur-
poses available for the defence of our shores in the event of
war. He would show what ships we had got in commission
at home and in the Mediterranean, for those two forces
combined formed the available force for the defence of our
coasts. We had in commission at home 12 sail of the line
(screw ships), and in the Mediterranean we had 14 sail of
the line (screw ships) ; making a total of 26 steamships of
the line in commission. Those ships on the home station
—especially those that had been very lately commissioned—
were not fully manned ; but whatever faults might be found
with the scheme of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Droitwitch in regard to the late proclamation respecting
bounty, at least if the success of a measure was to be the
test of its merits, he (Lord C. Paget) was bound to say that
that measure had been attended with considerable success.
(Cheers.) There were ships which having been lately put
in commission, were naturally not fully manned ; but, in
regard to the great squadron he was about to enumerate, it
I might be considered as composed of vessels fully armed and
fully manned, with the exception of a few, and in all respects
ready for action. He had said we had 12 screw sail of the
line at home, and 14 screw sail of the line in the Alediter-

ranean—making a total of 26 steamships of the line in com-
mision. With frigates we were not so well supplied. We
had 12 screw frigates and one paddle frigate on the home
station, and in the Mediterranean we had two screw frigates
and one paddle frigate. Those who were acquainted with naval
affairs knew there was a great number of smaller vessels, but

he thought he should consult the convenience of the com-
mittee if he divided our naval force into three classes—

namely, line-of-battle ships, frigates, and corvettes, which
included sloops. Of corvettes and sloops we had six screws
at home, and 26 paddles, making 32 ; and in the Mediter-
ranean we had 10 screws and nine paddles, making 19.
The total force at home and in the Mediterranean amounted
to 106 steamships in commission, besides a force of gun-
boats which were constantly varying in numbers at dif-
ferent stations. At other stations all over the world we
had about 200 ships, including sailing vessels, employed in
protecting the commerce of our various colonial dependen-
cies. That constituted what he would call our first line of
defence, of which the more important part consisted of the
26 line-of-battle ships What constituted our second line
of defence ? At this moment we had nine block ships which
were manned by coast guardsmen, and which, though net
ships of the line, were nevertheless doing good service to
the country by inducing sailors to join the fleet. They were
cruising about our coasts ; they were vessels of a light
draught of water, and could get into ports which many
other ships could not enter ; they were, in fact, perform-
ing valuable services as nurseries and recruiting ships of
the fleet. So much good were those coastguard ships doing
in that respect that he thought without them the manning
of the navy would have proceeded with much less effect.
He knew his hon. and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier) held
those coastguard ships in great contempt. He seemed to
think that they should be put behind the fire and burnt as
useless men-of-war. (" No," and a laugh.) He (Lord C.
Paget), however, should be very sorry if those ships were
not to be taken into consideration, for they were valuable
for the purposes of coast defence. Some of them were in
fair condition, and it was proposed by some alterations in
the making to render them still more useful and efficient.
_But in consideration of what had been often stated by the
gallant Admiral, whose opinion was held in great respect
at the Admiralty, it was proposed by the Board to place at
the principal ports one of the large efficient line-of-battle
ships as the head-quarters of the coastguard at
those ports, retaining the coastguard ships there
at the same time ; and arrangements were now being made
for placing three of those ships as the head-quarters of three
of the principal ports. It was proposed to retain the block-
ships, not only on account of their handiness in getting in
and out of port, but because their men were acquainted with
every one in the locality. They gave the crews a dinner of
roast beef on Sundays, which induced a good many of their
friends to come on board—(a laugh)—and there could be no
doubt that the crews of these ships induced a great many
men to join the fleet. In many ways these ships rendered
great services, and he trusted they would not be displaced
from their duties. They constituted of themselves a very
respectable reserve for the fleet. But there was another re-
serve of a more powerful character which would be available
in a few days in the event of an emergency. There were on
shore at the present moment, at the Coastguard stations,
3,400 first rate seamen belonging to the Coastguard. They
had served in the Baltic and Black Sea, and were active,
first-rate sailors. Attached to them was a body of coast
volunteers, of whom 6,000 had been enrolled. There were
differences of opinion as to the value of these men. Some
declared that they would come forward to a man when
they were wanted, while others predicted that they would
not be forthcoming in case of an emergency He believed
he might say, on the authority of an excellent officer who
was once at the head of those men, and who was now at
the Board of Admiralty—Commodore Eden—that you
might count upon deriving from this body at any moment
—as fast as the telegraph and the railway could bring them
to the port to which they were ordered—the crews of twelve
line-of-battle ships. (Hear, hear.) This was a powerful
reserve of seamen. Besides these sailors there were
marines under instruction who would soon be ready,
and a number of boys now in training at Portsmouth,
and other harbours. There were thus, first of all, the
force which he had described as the first line of defence,
then the nine blockships, which might be called the second
line of defence, and next the force of Coastguard, every
one of whom would, in Commodore Eden's opinion, bring
his friend under his arm to loin the fleet. The question
then arose, " What ships have you got to put them into ?"
Here he must pay a compliment to therighthon. gentleman
(Sir J. Pakington), because he should be able to show that
the construction of ships during the present year was some-
thing stupendous—something marvellous. (Cheers.) He
would now showwhat ships we had got to put these men into
in case of emergency. The Government at this moment had
10 sail of the line ready for commission. They would have
three more in the autumn, and there was one under repair.
So that the total of the line of-battle ships and screw ships
of the line now afloat was 40. The Admiralty were build-
ing 10 more ships of the line ; there were six more in pro-
cess of conversion; making a grand total of 56 sail of the
line, of which he hoped there would be at the end of the
financial year 50 sail of the line afloat. (Cheers.) He was
now about to depart a little from the rules of the Admiralty.
He had always observed that the Admiralty were willing
enough to look at the present, but that they were always
reluctant to say anything about the future. They spoke of
the future in a guarded manner, as if they were afraid they
should not be able to do what they said they would do. It
was impossible for a Board of Admiralty to say positively
what they would be able to do in the course of the current
year. There were always various contingencies of repair,
that could not be exactly calculated, but, as a general rule
he believed that if a little more system and method were in-
troduced they would be able to arrive at a very fair aver-
age of the number of men who would be wanted for
repairs, and that they would not be obliged to take the
men who wore building ships to repair others. (Hear, hear.)
This was one of the questions which the noble duke at the
head of the Admiralty, and the Board of Admiralty, would
take into their serious consideration. (Hear, hear.) He
believed there would be no necessity to take away the
hands from the building departments to the ships which
he hoped the Admiralty would be able to build, and ho
trusted that, at the end of the financial year, there would
be 50 ships of the line afloat, 37 frigates, and 140 corvettes,
sloops, and gun vessels. (Hear, hear.) [An hon. member
msule a remark which did not reach the gallery.) Yes ; there
would, he hoped, be 50 sail of the line afloat, independent of
the blockships. (Hear, hear.) He had now told them what
the force of men was, and what the force of ships, and these
constituted the present preparations for the defence of the
country. But let no one suppose that this represented the
force of England. From a return moved for by the hon.
member for Penryn a few days ago it appeared that the num •
ber of steamers over 1,000 tons was 159, that the total num-
ber of registered steamers was 1,854 and that there were 231
steam vessels in the merchant navy, any of which might be
armed with Armstrong's guns, and which would prove a
valuable addition to the defences of the country. (Hear,
hear.) There was another source from which the navy of
this country might be very largely increased at any moment
—viz., the ships from the merchant yards. He held in his
hand a return which could not but be interesting to the
house. There were 10,000 shipwrights in Great Britain in
addition to those employed in the Royal dockyards. Now,
the old shipwright maxim was that 1,000 shipwrigdts would
build eight ships of 1,000 tons in 12 months ; consequently
10,000 men would build 80 corvettes of 1,000 tons each in
12 months, or between six and seven corvettes per month.
(Hear, hear.) If we were pressed for ships there could be
no doubt that, giving the shipwrights a little while, say
four months to start with, they would be able to build half
a dozen very large corvettes per month in the merchant
yards, and the steam machinery that could be produced
would be in proportion. His object was to show what the
public were, he thought, anxious to know, whether this
country was really in a state that befitted its honour and
dignity. He believed that the navy was now in a state
befitting the honour of the country. (Hear, hear.) He
did not say that it would not be necessary to call for an ad-
ditional number of men in the event of war, as at the pre-
sent time the number of men was within 2,000 of the votes.
The fact was, that Government had not the power of
commissioning any more ships at present. But his firm
belief was that with regard to ships there were enough
ready, or nearly ready, to justify the Government in
asking for a considerable addition to the number of men.
Having, to the best of his ability—(cheers)---told the house
the present force of the fleet, he would now endeavour to
make these very large and complicated estimates intelligible
to the house. Turning to the supplementary navy esti-
mates, he would observe that the first four votes of the
original estimates had all been taken, and therefore it was
not necessary that he should advert to them at length now,
but, as many gentlemen then present were not in the last
Parliament, he thought it right to give some facts concern-
ing those items. In vote number one the original estimate
was taken for 47,000 seamen, and a supplementary estimate
was proposed for 8,000, making a total of 55,000 seamen,
including the coastguard. The first item in the vote was
the usual vote for wages, upon which it was not necessary
to dwell. The second item was to meet the extra pay allowed
to seamen gunners, £13,000. That was in accordance with
a recommendation of the commission for manning the navy.
(Hear.) Items three and four were to meet the increase of
pay allowed to medical officers and chaplains of the navy.
He, in common with every naval man, approved that act of
consideration and justice towards those valuable officers ;
but, he was bound to add, that he wished the right hon.
member for Droitwich had extended his consideration to
the paymasters, the masters, and the engineers of the navy.
(Hear.) He trusted that the present Board of Admiralty
would examine the position of those officers, and endeavour
to place them in a fairer position. The next item was for
good cSiaduct pay and allowances to petty officers after pro-
motion. That was also in accordance with a recommenda-
tion of the commission upon manning the navy, for it was
found that petty officers was in a worse position in respect
to good conduct badges than they were when seamen.
(Hear.) The sum was £31,000 to provide the bounty to sea-
men volunteering into the Royal navy. The question of
bounty was one which involved very important considera-
tions. (Hear.) There could not be a doubt that in great
emergencies it would be perfectly justifiable for the Govern-
ment to give a bounty to seamen as an inducement to enter
the service. Whether that exigency- had arisen it was
not for him, in his subordinate position, to decide, but he
did say that it was impossible to avoid considering the case
of the seamen who were already in the navy. (Hear.) In
the army and the marines there was always a bounty upon
entrance, sometimes higher and sometimes lower ; but every
man had received a bounty according to the market price.
In the navy it had been different, and it became necessary
for the Government to consider the case of those seamen
who had not participated in the bounty. y an act passed
in 1832 it was clear that the seamen who were already in
the service had no legal claim to a bounty, but the Govern-
ment thought that a bounty was a novelty in the navy,
and, moreover, that it had been a very excessive bounty,
for with £lO in money, a suit of clothes, and bedding—[Sir
J. Pakington—" For continuous service men only"]—the
whole constituted a very large reward to o.ffer to men wno,
although able seamen, were undoubtedly inferior in know-
ledge of the duties of a ship of war to those already on board.
(Hear.) The position of the latter as compared Tith that
of their new comrades could not be considered satisfactory.
(Hear.) It was right to say that there had not been a single
complaint from those meii. (Hear.) They had behaved
in the noblest manner, and the Government had resolved to
deal generously with these men. (Hear.) He was not
prepared to give the details of the measure that was pro-
posed to be adopted, because a Privy Council had been held
that day, and an Order in Council would be issued to-mor-
row which would state them clearly to the world. He could
only say that a portion of the bounty in proportion to the
rating of the men, either as an able, ordinary, or second-
class ordinary seaman, would be granted to them. (Hear.)
That was a boon which, he believed, would be received
throughout the fleet with joy and gratitude. (Hear.) hi
his opinion, the granting of a bounty was a question which
should be carefally considered before it was resorted to,
and he could not see what circumstance occurred during
the month of April, when the Proclamation was issued,
which justified the late Government in introducing
such
a system, especially by what was more like the
of a Russian Emperor than the custom of a con-
stitutional
have been
better had Parliament been consulted before so important a
ukase
count ry. It would, in his opinion
measure was decided upon. (Hear.) He would next read
to the house a return that would be equally instructive and
amusing—a return of the number of men impressed into the
navy during the years 1811, 1812, and 1813, the last three

years of the impressment system. During the three years
there were 29,405 impressed, and 27,313 deserted—(hear,
and laughter)—so that the whole gain to the country was
only 2,082 men. But to obtain that number there were 3,000
excellent sailors employed on shore as pressgangs, so that,
in fact, the country actually lost about 1,000 men by the
system of impressment. (Hear, hear.) Those figures fur-
nished an unanswerable argument against impressment,
and he thought that system would never again be resorted
to. He hoped in his remarks he had given no cause of
offence to the right hon. baronet opposite ; but he must
remark that almost all naval officers were of opinion that
the future position of the navy had been jeopardised. He
hoped no ill effects would ensue, but thought that Parlia-
ment ought to have been consulted, in which case the bounty
system would not have been resorted to, or, at all events, not
upon so large a scale. He would tell the house what had
been the results of the bounty system since May 1, 1859.
The total number who had entered and received bounty
was 5,730 men, of whom 1,437 were able seamen. He was
bound to say that that was a very fair proportion of able
seamen, and, as far as success went, the plan might be said
to have great merit. (Hear, hear.) The next vcte was
vote No. 2, which was the victualling vote for the addi-
tional men. In this was included the sum required for the
usual purchase of provisions and victualling stores, and the
sum necessary to meet the increased rations of biscuit and
sugar for the seamen and marines when afloat. This latter
was another excellent recommendation of the Royal Com-
mission which the late Government carried out. (Hear,
hear.) There was also the gratuitous issue of bedding and
clothing to which he had bfore alluded. In vote No. 3of
the supplemental estimate, the sum of £3,000 was asked
for to provide for the additional employment of clerks in the
Admiralty ; and he thought that the house would readily
see that the great increase of the fleet involved a great addi-
tional amount of correspondence and assistance. (Hear.)
And now he came to vote No. 4, in the supplemental esti-
mate required to meet the expense of forming a volunteer
reserve force of seamen, pursuant to the recommendation
contained in the report of the Royal Commission on Man-
ning the Navy. The hon. member for Sunderland had
given notice of a motion to defer this vote until more infor-
mation was produced ; but he hoped that the few observa-
tions he was about to make would prevent his hon. friend
from taking that course. The hon. member was aware that
the Royal Commission of last year recommended that a sum
of £200,000 should be taken for a variety of matters of de-
tail, with which he need not now trouble the house, for the
improvement of our reserves ; one of their recommendations
was in favour of school-ships, and another was for an
annual payment per man of to the pension fund, and
also of £5 yearly as a retaining fee for 20,000 men, making
a total of £200,000. The late Government before quitting
office took a long time to consider these matters, and they
arrived at the conclusion at last that £lOO,OOO should be the
sum. It would be deceiving the house to say that the pre-
sent Board of Admiralty, having been in office only about a
week, had had time to go into th consideration of this ques-
tion, for the amount of other business had entirely pre-
vented proper attention bane- paid to it hitherto. (Hear,
hear.) However, the present Board of Admiralty felt that
it would be obviously impolitic, because they had not yet
been able to arrive at a de3ision upon the details of the sub-
ject, that they should therefore exclude this sum from the
estimates. It was wiser to retain the sum in the estimates,
and, as soon afterwards as they could see their way, to prepare
a bill or bills to carry out the measure. Now, not one shilling
of this money could be spent until the House of Commons
agreed to pass enactments necessary to carry out the recom-
mendations of the Royal Commission. Therefore the hon.
member for Sunderland would perceive itwas unnecessary to
press his motion, because if the house thought fit not to
assent to the measures carrying out so far the views of the
Royal Commission, this fund would not be spent, and it
weuld only become available for the experiment in the
event of the approval of the house. Consequently, he
trusted that his hon. friend would not object to the vote
upon the understanding that net one shilling of the money
would be spent until an act of Parliament was passed au-
thorising the Government to lay it out for the improvement
of our reserves. (Hear.) He would now turn to the ori-
ginal estimates, in which vote No. 5 was for the scientific
branch. There was a small increase in it, but he was not

aware that there was anything in that vote or in vote No.
6, providing for the establishments at home, on which he
need detain the house. He might say the some with re-
gard to vote No. 7, referring to the establishments abroad,
and now he came to vote No. 8. This was a vote on which
it would be necessary for him to make some few observa-
tions. Besides, the ordinary wages of shipwrights there
was an extraordinory charge here, which he believed they
might call the " reconstruction" charge. These formed two
distinct charges in the original estimates ; and there was
also a large sum in the supplemental estimates under the
head of wages to artificers. He would proceed to explain the
history of this transaction. Up to March last the men in
the dockyards were working in the usual way on day pay.
There was no particular pressure on the dockyards, and the
men were all receiving their day's pay for a day's labour.
But in March the late Government thought fit to commence
a system of task and job work, and also to enter a consider-
able number of additional artificers. There were 1,434 ship-
wrights entered in addition to a corresponding number of
other labourers. In April, again, the right hon. gentle-
man, the late First Lord of the Admiralty, considered it
important, probably from circumstances connected with
foreign affairs, to make additional exertions ' • and then com-
menced a system of over hours; that was to say, besides
the institution of task and job work, men were allowed to
work over hours, and so the dockyards went on until
May, when there came a large increase of no less than.
1,350 shipwrights and other artificers and labourers; mak-
ing a total of 17,690 workmen now employed in the dock-
yards against 14,128 employed in the month of March.
This was a very great increase, and he believed that the in-
crease was absolutely necessary. (Hear, hear.) He thought
that the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Palcington) deserved
the gratitude of the country for having taken this matter in
hand, for having come to the decision of raising the
amount of workmen-in the dockyards with the least possible
delay. (Hear, hear.) The present Government, on coming
into office, looked very carefully over this vote, and they
sent for the Surveyor of the Navy, Sir B. Walker, and asked
very particularly for what period this additional expense
would provide pay for the additional men; and Sir B. Walker
stated that it would only pay the men up to the month of
October. It would be very unwise that that body of men
should be discharged, when the short days of winter were
coming on, when over the country work was scarce, and,
moreover, when there would still remain in the dockyards
a vast amount of work to be done ; and therefore the Go-
vernment had resolved to keep them on till the end of the
financial year, and to ask for an additional sum of £lOO,OOO
on that account. This was a sufficient answer to the state-
ments which had been made, that the present Government
intended to cut down the expenditure in the dockyards, and
to cease the efforts which were being made to put our navy
upon a war footing. (Hear, hear.) Up to the present year,
all the information which the house had about vote 10 hag
been that it was for materials for shipbuilding. They had
often heard little disputes between high authorities as to
the number of ships which had been built by this or that
Government. He remembered that the right hon. baronet
opposite (Sir J. Pakington) claimed some line-of-battle-
ships which were the property of his right hon. friend the
Secretary of State for India. They were built almost en-
tirely while the latter right hon. baronet was in office ; but,
as they were finished under the administration of the right
hon. baronet the member for Droitwich, he claimed them as
having been built during his time. For the purpose of
putting an end to these discussions, and giving the house
an idea of what building- really was carried on in our dock-
yards, he had endeavour ed to ascertain what amount of
tonnage was built there in a year. During the past year,
1858-9, we had built three line-of-battle ships of 10,604
tons • frigates, 5,851 ; corvettes, 1,193 ; sloops and gun
vessels, 1,511; total, 19,159 tons. If the scheme of the
Government were carried out, and no unforeseen contin-
gency'
should arise, there would be built of line-of-battle
ships 19,606 tons frigates, 15,897 ; corvettes, 5,130 ; sloops
and gun vessels, 0,651 ; total, 46,284, or more than double
the tonnage built last year. During the present year we
were converting five sail-of the line and four 50-gun fri-
gates. This was entirely exclusive of contract-built ships.
Of marine engines we had at present in course of construc-
tion 14,570 horse-power, and orders had been given for
2,160 horse-power more, making a total of 16,730 horse-
power more. This was the way in which the money appro-
priated under vote 10 was expended. He hoped that text
year the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty would
permit him to place these facts upon the estimates in order
to show hon. members how the money which they voted was
applied. He could assure the committee that it was the
earnest desire of the noble duke, and of the Board of Admi-
ralty, to give every possible information on these matters.
(Hear, hear.) The sum taken in the original estimates for
ships building by contract was £252,000, which was the first
instalment f it two iron-eased frigates, one of which would
be launched on the 18th of April next—the total cost
of which he was not then in a position to state. In addi-
tion to this sum there was in the supplemental estimates
a vote for 18 gun vessels of a very superior class, which were
to be built by contract. With regard to vote No. 11 for
new works, improvements, and repairs, the new Board of
Admiralty, having had no time to visit the different dock
yards, had formed no independent judgment. Each year
we built larger ships, and consequently had to enlarge
our docks; and he supposed we should go on in the
same way until there came a change, and ships were reduced
in size. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) On the 12th
and 13th votes he had no remark to offer to the house. The
14th was the vote for half-pay, and in the supplementary
estimate on this an addition was asked for on account of the
increase in the scale of the half-pay of medical officers and
chaplains. It had reference to the order to which he had
adverted when explaining vote 1 for full pay. Vote 15 was
fornailitary pensions, and was of the usual character. Vote
16 was for the conveyance of troops, and as the Govern-
ment had recently thought fit to reinforce the Mediterra-
nean garrisons, a considerable increase in this vote had
been thereby entailed. On the vote for the Packet Service
in the supplementary estimate, for which there was an in-
crease on account of the new contract for the conveyance of
mails from Dover to Calais and Ostend, his colleague, the
Civil Lord of the Admiralty, in whose department it fell,
would give any explanation which might be desired. He
had now gone through these complicated estimates to the
best of his limited ability, though he was conscious that he
had omitted many important and interesting details which
it was his duty and his desire to have laid before the house.
In the remarks which he had been obliged to make on
that which had token place under the late Government, he
hoped that he said nothing which could be deemed offensive,
for his only desire was to state his opinion, and particularly
his professional opinion as a naval man, on the points which
had lately occupied so much of the public attention. If
there was one subject which could be debated more than
another without any infusion of party spirit, it was the
state of our navy, for all parties were equally interested in
maintaining the efficiency of that great arm of England's
glory. (Hear.) He trusted, therefore, that in discussing
these estimates there would be an entire absence of party
spirit, and that all would enter on the question with the
single desire to put the navy on the most efficient footing.
This country desired peace, not war—(hear)—and in the
great preparations which we were making to arm our fleets
we had not the smallest desire for aggression on other
countries. The earnest desire of every man in this country
must be that this horrible and bloody war might be brought
to an end, and he trusted that what we had lately heard
might be the forerunner of it. (Cheers.) But the words of
the poet were as true now as when they were written—
" With common men
It needs too oft the show of war
To keep sweet peace."
The noble lord concluded by moving that 10,000 additional
men and boys be granted for service in her Majesty's fleets.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—After the speech of the noble
lord I am happy to say I shall not think it necessary to de-
tain the committee at any length, nor have I the slightest
complaint to make of the tone and manner in which he has
treated the subject. (Hear.) On the contrary, I am anxious
to bear my testimony to the ability with which he has per-
formed his duty, and considering the few days which he
has held his present office, the committee must feel that it
is highly to his credit. (Cheers.) I am bound, too, to ac-
knowledge the candour and fairness with which he has re-
ferred to the effortsmadeby the late Government to increase
the efficiency of the navy. He has confirmed that which I
felt it my duty to state as to the force which we turned

over to our successors, that having found when we went
into office 26 line of battle ships-12 in the Channel and 14
in the Mediterranean—we left behind us 40, which number
will be increased to 50 by the end of the present year. I
heard from him too, with the greatest pleasure, that the
present Government intend to adopt the whole of the esti-
mates of the late Government, unusually large as they un-
doubtedly are. (Hear.) In fact, the house and the country
must rather begin to wonder why the late change of Go-
vernment
took place. (A laugh.) There are two subjects of
paramount importance in the public mind just now—our
foreign relations, and our national defences. We have had
the most distinct assurance from the Premier that, with
regard to our foreign relations, the present Govern-
ment are content "to walk in the path chalked out
for them by their predecessors." (Hear, hear.) They have
adopted our policy, and they make no complaint of it. And
with regard to our national defences, I have the double sa-
tisfaction, as a member of the late Government and as an
Englishman, of hearing from the noble lord to-night that our
estimates are accepted and our plans approved. (Hear, hear.)
I confess, therefore, I am at a loss to know why we forfeited
the confidence of the House of Commons—but having for-
feited it, it is satisfactory to have the compliment paid us of
being told that our successors can do no better than tread
in our steps, with regard to these two subjects of paramount
importance. .(Hear, hear.) The first statement made by the
noble lord was that the Government had determined to place
three superior line-of-battle ships in stations round the
coast. I should like to have some further explanation on
that point. I presume they are to be deducted from the
Channel fleet.

Lord C. PAGET—No, they are three ships which are
ready to be cou'missioned, but are not yet in commission.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—In that case I think the measure
may be a very prudent one. (Hear, hear.) The noblelord
next alluded to the course taken by the late Admiralty with
regard to the medical officers and chaplains; and he seemed
to make some complaint of our not having remedied the
grievances urged by the masters and paymasters.
He cannot be aware of the attention which was paid by the
late Board of Admiralty to the complaints of the latter
classes of officers. It is true that we had arrived at no final
decision on the question, but we had recognised their fair
claim to have their complaints considered, and I left in the
hands of the Duke of Somerset a written memorandum, ex-
plaining the views of the late Board of Admiralty on the
subject, and showing that it was their full intention to deal
with the complaints of these officers. I wish to prevent the
existence of an impression which would be as erroneous as
it would be unfair towards the late Board of Admiralty, that
they had declined to entertain the complaints of the masters
and paymasters. It was merely the want of opportunity,
arising from the change of Government, which prevented
us from dealing with the complaints of these classes of offi-
cers in the same spirit in which we had dealt with the com-
plaints of the surgeons and chaplains. I will now advert to
what fell from the .noble lord with reference to a most im-
portant subject, upon which I wish that he had afforded us
more information—the intentions of the Government with
regard to an extension. of the bounty. The noble lord has
on former occasions avowed his disapproval of the principle
of a bounty, and I think, considering that circumstance, he
treated the subject with the utmost fairness. He admitted,
with as much fairness as if he had been one of the strongest
supporters of the bounty, that the experiment has been
completely successful, and I don't think it is presumptuous
to say that the success of that measure is in a great degree
, a test of its merit. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) I
am sure no one will deny—and the noble lord and his col-
leagues would be the last persons to do so—that, consider-
ing the state of public affairs in Europe three months ago,
it was the imperative duty of the Government to lose no
time in giving England an efficient fleet. (Cheers.) How
then, was this to be done ? The measures which the late Go-
vernment intended to introduce, and with which the pre-
sent Government, I am glad to say, intend to proceed, con-
sequent on the report of the Manning Commission, had not
been matured, and the only resources to which we could.
turn were the Coastguard and the Naval Coast Volunteers.
Would it have been politic on our part to turn at once to
the last resource ? Ido not believe any man would have
recommended such a policy. How, then, could we obtain
a fleet ? Only by offering a bounty. It happened that at
that moment, from different causes—partly owing to the
prevalence of easterly winds, and partly owing to its being
the season when the Baltic and the North American trades
were just commencing--an unusually small number of mer-
chant seamen were available in our ports ; and unless we
had adopted the principle of a bounty we could not have
turned over to the present Government 26 line-of-battle
ships and 13 frigates in a state of perfect efficiency. We
had no hesitation in adopting the principle of the bounty,
and, although I am sorry the noble lord doubts the wisdom
of that measure, my consolation is that I believe he will be
almost alone in that opinion. The noble lord says the
bounty is excessive. I told the house on a former occasion
that the bounty was certainly high beyond any precedent,
but if we had not made the bounty high beyond all former
precedent we should have failed in our object, and we
should not have succeeded in manning the fleet. I believe
that no bounty has been resorted to in this country since
1815, and it must be remembered that in the interval im-
mense changes have taken place in the general condition of
seamen, and in their rate of pay. I think, when the acci-
dental scarcity of seamen, and the high rates of pay offered
in the merchant service three months ago, are borne in
mind, very little consideration will convince the house that
it would have been perfectly useless to offer a low bounty.
In fact, if we had not offered a high bounty we should
not have been successful, and I believe that by the-
course we adopted we have obtained the fleet we re-
quired. My earnest hope is that the adoption of a
sounder system, providing a steady and permanent re-
serve for the supply of the navy, and carrying into
effect the recommendations of the Royal Commission,
will prevent future Governments from being compelled to
resort, as we were obliged to do, to the unusual course of
offering a very high bounty. I now approach a state-
ment of the'noble lord which I heard with great surprise,
and, so far as I understood him, with great regret, and I
am sorry that the noble lord did not furnish us with some
further explanations on the subject. He told us that a
Council had been held to-day, and that an order in Council
was to be issued, but he did not tell us what was its object.
If I understood him rightly, the Government have made
up their minds to extend the bounty to other seamen who
were previously in the service.

Lord C. PA6ET.—To a portion of them.
Sir J. PAKINGTON.—I think I have some right to
complain of the imperfect explanation afforded by the noble
lord, and although I will not presume to censure a measure
which I so imperfectly understand, and, on that ground, I
express my opinion very guardedly, I must say I am afraid
the Government have established a precedent which may
hereafter be found most inconvenient and objectionable. I
think the noble lord's statement did not justify the course
which I understand the Government have determined to
adopt. He frankly declared that there had been no dissa-
tisfaction or discontent . in the fleet. When we offered a
bounty we were told, I believe by my hon. and gallant
friend near me (Sir C. Napier) and by other very high au-
thorities—" The certain result of your measure will be to
spread discontent and dissatisfaction throughout the fleet,
and you will be obliged to extend the bounty to other men."
I never felt more firmly determined—and my colleagues
completely concurred with me—to resist any such demand,
and my opinion has been justified by the result. The
noble lord has admitted, in the broadest terms, that there
has been no discontent or dissatisfaction among the sea-
men. He has told us that the Government have deter-
mined to deal generously with the seamen of our fleet. In
that principle undoubtedly I concur, but I say that we have
dealt generously with them. The noble lord has told us
that when we-examine the estimates in detail we shall not
only find charges for the bounty, but for those new allow-
ances and advantages, such as clothing, bedding, and other
things, the grant of which, I think, slows a disposition to
deal with seamenin a most generous spirit. But upon what
principle do you think it necessary to extend to men who
were previously in the service the bounty which we offered
to induce other men to enter it ? I entreat the Govern-
ment to recollect that this course is wholly without prece-
dent. I believe that there have been three occasions on
which a bounty had been given, bnt in no instance has it
been extended to seamen previously engaged. The right
hon. member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) told us on a
former evening that, at the commencement of the Russian
war, the Government of which he was a member abstained
from giving a bounty to seamen. I think he did not ex-
plain why that course was adopted, but if I am not very
much mistaken, the main reason was that an Act passed
in 1835, the sth and 6th William IV., contained what I
think a very unwise clause, providing that whenevetrrta
bounty was offered every sailor then in the fleet was tc)
a new engagement for five years, and in consideration
of
such new engagement was to receive the bounty.is
quite clear that the Government of which the right lion.
baronet was a member shared the opinion I now express as
to the impolicy of that provision, for, under his auspices, I
believe in 1853 an act was passed by which it was repealed,
and the necessity of extending a bounty to seamen pre-
viously in the fleet ceased to exist. • The clause to which
have referred, whether wise or unwise, was never acted
upon, and I fear, if the Government now introduce for the
first time what I think a dangerous principle, that you can-
not on an emergency offer a bounty to man your fleet with-
out incurring-the great and unnecessary expense of extend-
ing that bounty to all men who were previously serving.
The practical result will be to deter Governments
from re-
sorting to this most useful measure—one, I admit, which
ought not to be lightly adopted, but which may be most
valuable when some pressing occasion may arise. The
noble lord complained of the form of our proclamation in
regard to bounty, comparing it to a Russian ukase.
Lord C. PAGET—I meant th. at it was an arbitrary pro-
ceeding, being without the sanction of Parliament.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I admitted on a former occasion
that the late Government took upon themselves a very great
responsibility, and the step was subsequently sanctioned by
Parliament. I thought it was to the form of our proclama-
tion that the noble lord objected, and I was about to say
that in drawing it up we strictly adhered to precedent. I
am glad that the Government intend. o introduce a bill for
carrying out the report of the commission on the manning
of the navy; but the late Government were not open to the
accusation that has been repeatedly made against them as
to their having been very slow in arriving at a decision on
this point. I beg to say we do not in the least deserve that
charge. The commissioners reported in the month of
February, the Government had to consider their report,
and the noble lord seems to have forgotten that for a consi-
derable interval of tin3e,--there being no Parliament sitting,
it was impossible for the Government to announce their de-
cision. A. few weeks only had elapsed after the presenta-
tion of the report before Parliament was dissolved, and in
the Queen's Speech, delivered on its reassembling, there
was an intimation that this point had been decided. We
could hardly, therefore, have been more expeditious in the
matter. The noble lord alluded to the great number of
shipwrights that we added to the dockyards in order to ac-
celerate the shipbuilding operations going on, 'and he an-
nounced the change which the present Government have
resolved to adopt, at a cost to the country of about £lOO,OOO.
I am not prepared at this moment to give a very decided
opinion one way or the othet as to the policy of what the
Government have- done ; but one part of the noble lord's
reasoning I cannot accept. He says it would be very hard
bn the shipwrights that they should be turned adrift just
at the time of the short days after having been employed
all the summer by the Government. Now, however na-
tural this feeling may be as between man and man, I must
say that in dealing with the public money you are hardly
justified in spending £lOO,OOO to maintain shipwrights
whom you don't want. The great question is, "Do you
require them or not ?" If you do, then the Govern-
ment deserves credit for employing them, and certainly
had we remained in office, and the services of these men
had been called for at the end of the_six months, we should
not have hesitated to retain them. The course we took was
founded on the recommendation of the Surveyor of the
Navy. Sir Baldwin Walker came to the late Board of Ad-
miralty and suggested that an additional force of ship-
wrights should be taken on for six months to expedite par-
ticular works and to clear off, arrears, 'Upon his ad-

vice we determined on engaging these 1,300 extra ship-
wrights for that period accordingly ; and if, at the end of
the first six months, he had informed us that the men would
be wanted for six months more, we should then have
thought that a sufficient justification for our taking the
course now adopted by our successors. That is a matter of
which the Admiralty must be the best judges. If they are
prepared to assure the house that the work in the dockyards
is in such a state that it is desirable for the interests of the
public service, and not merely on grounds, as it would
rather appear, of private charity, that these men should be
kept on for the whole financial year, then I certainly will
not offer the slightest objection to their proposal. The
noble lord next stated that I claimed credit for ships which
really belonged to my predecessor. Sir, I don't know of
anything that has passed or that has fallen from me on
which this assertion is based ; but I must in the most distinct
manner repudiate any intention ever to make any such
claim. (Cheers.) And let me add, that I think we have
had a little too much party feeling and party views mixed
with our discussions relating to the navy; and I quite agree
with my noble friend opposite that the more this is avoided
the better. (Renewed cheers.) lam content with having
during the period I had the honour to be at the head of
the Admiralty endeavoured to do my duty to the country
as well as I could. (Cheers.) What I have done has been
most kindly acknowledged, and by none more than by
some distinguished members of the present Government.
I have no wish to detract from the merit due to other
men ; and if party discussions on this subject have
reluctantly on my, part been forced upon me, I, for one,
do not want to renew that of which we have had
too much already. This great question of restoring the
strength of the British navy, and keeping it up to the point
at which it ought to be maintained, is one of such para-
mount national importance and intense interest at this
moment that it infinitely transcends everything which
savours of party. As I have endeavoured to do my own
duty in this matter, I doubt not the present Government
will also endeavour to do theirs ; and I am sure that no
man in this house will give to their services a fuller or more
frank recognition than I shall. (Cheers.)
Sir C. NAPIER congratulated his hon. and gallant friend
on the very clear and sailorlike manner in which he had
brought forward these estimates. The gallant officer had
told the house that he had got the Channel fleet up to 12
sail of the line ; and he quite agreed with him that it was
not desirable to confine that fleet to the Channel. Portland
might be very good for head-quarters, but the ships should
be kept constantly at sea, in order that the men, the officers,
and even the admiral, should acquire the necessary experi-
ence. Different officers had different notions of drill, and a
little sea experience under the admiral was necessary to give
uniformity in this important matter. He had had the hon-
our to command the Channel squadron for two years; and,
although he was not fonder of praising himself than other
men--(a laugh)—he must say that under his orders a per-
fect uniformity of discipline was obtained in the fleet under
his command. With regard to the block ships which were
sent to the Baltic, he said that the object was to have effi-
cient ships ready to receive the reserve; but he added that
they were by some extraordinary arrangement sent without
masts and yards, so that they were entirely useless. The
coast-guard were old sailors, and there were no better men
sent to the Baltic. As to the coast volunteers, he had
no doubt that they would come forward when they
were called upon, if they were properly treated, and
not sent some to one place and some to another, but
made available for manning the ships at the naval
stations to which they belonged. But suppose your ships
manned, where were the officers to command ? Where
were the captains and lieutenants to command the men ?
Formerly we were overwhelmed with officers, now the Admi-
ralty had gone to the opposite extreme, They were asked
for £lOO,OOO for the reserve, but that was not the way of
securing an effective reserve. They ought to keep 10 sail
of the line fully manned with able seamen in time of peace,
and that would supply the nucleus of a force sufficient for 30
sail of the line in the event of any emergency arising. The
noble lord said they had 40 sail of the line and 120 gut-
boats in a state of efficieny ; but if they had 80 sail of
the line we should be safe against all the powers of the
world. The paying off of the fleet in 1857, and the conse-
quent necessity of getting it up. again, had cost more money
than it would have done to maintain the fleet in an efficient
state at its full force. The hon. and gallant officer had
spoken of 231 merchant steam vessels which might in case
of emergency be made available ; but how long would it
take to fit them out and arm them ? With regard to man-
ning the navy, he was glad to hear that the bounty, accord-
ing to the plan he proposed many years ago, was to be
given, but it must be given to the full extent—a portion
would not satisfy the men. The number of desertions, he
understood, was now as great as they were during the war,
which he regretted, because it proved that the men did not
consider themselves well treated. If they were properly
treated desertion would be extremely rare. The system on
which the Admiralty was conducted was anything but
satisfactory. One board was turned out and was succeeded
by another, and in the course of five years there had been
seven first lords, and therefore it was not surprising that a
great deal of waste and extravagance took place. The
system must be put an end to in some way or other. With
respect to Greenwich Hospital a most searching examina-
tion was necessary. Whilst all the officers received their
full pay or their pensions, the sailors got only a shilling a-
week, and the way in which they were treated led to every
species of immorality. If a sailor was ruptured in the
service he only got a gratuity of £5 or £6 and was then dis-
charged, and as nobody would employ him he must either
go the poorhouse or starve. Greenwich Hospital was in
fact nothing but an exhibition of splendid misery. The hon.
and gallant officer then referred to returns, showing the
number of seamen who had taken refuge in poor law unions
and workhouses, but the manner in which he read them
rendered it quite impossible to report even their substance.
Mr. LINDSAY celled attention to the enormous increase
in the navy estimates. In 1852 they amounted to 15,500,000,
in 1853 to £6,280,000, in 1858 to £8,680,000, and the pre-
sent estimates amounted to no less than 112.680,000. He
was not going to oppose the vote, because he was one of
those who thought it wise economy to maintain the defences
of the country in an efficient state ; but he thought that the
navy might be maintained in as efficient a state as it now
is for much less money. He hoped that his noble friend the
Secretary for the Admiralty would prevent those conver-
. sions of ships that were constantly take place at so useless
a sacrifice of public money. There was something wrong
in our dockyards. He would take first the wages of arti-
ficers in the dockyards. He had paid some attention to this
subject, and he had taken out the wages to shipwrights
employed on eight ships, all of the same size, 1,462 tons,
two of which were built at Devonport, two at Sheerness,
two at Chatham, and two at Woolwich. He found that
the price paid for shipwrights' labour for these ships was
£8 13s. lid. a ton, while for the Tartar and Cossack, which
were built in a private yard on the Thames for the Rus-
sian Government, the cost of the labour was only £2 Bs. a
ton. He did not recommend that our ships of war should
be built in private shipyards, but he thought there might
be a very great reduction made in the item of shipwrights'
wages. The item for labour was £1,527,000, of which
about £1,000,000 was for shipwrights, and on that item
alone there might be a saving of some £400,000, to the
country. Take the next item—materials and stores. The
vote required amminted to £2,800,000. He would only take
two items as an example. Up to a recent period it was
though that there were only two or three firms in this
country capable of building steam engines for the navy. He
did not recommend that the construction of steam engines for
the navy should be let out by tender, but it was rather too
much to suppose that persons who constructed engines for
the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and for the At-
lantic Steam Packet Company, could not construct them
for the navy. The result had been that the two firms em-
ployed had a monopoly, a
and they had been charging £6O
ton—his gallant friend behind him said £Bo—whereas, .f
thseoyor hadl4wis widened
ton.ed the
that ehsaeveeregtoatrytheemf
the
might
ht
that there were only two or three firms who were capable
Admiralty would not be led by those under him to think
of constructing steam engines for the navy, but would use
months the subject of
his own judgment. Then take anchors. He was on a
on
com-
mittee which sat for two or three
anchors. Seven different kinds of anchors were tested
before them, and they tested them in every possible way,
and they arrived unanimously at a decision, and gave in a
report that the Admiralty anchor was the worst anchor of
the whole lot, yet though that report had been in posses-
sion of the Admiralty nine' years, the Admiralty anchor
still continued in use. (Hear.) And more than that, the
price
that the Admiralty paid for seventeen anchors was
£3,364 17s. 6d., whereas the market price for these anchors
was only.llA2B. Thentake the wagesofseamen. The amount
required was £2,966,000. He was on the commission for
manning the navy. He differed from his colleagues on that
commission, and that he arrived at the solemn conviction
that the extra expenditure which they were about to saddle
on the country would be wasted. He should consider it
his duty to oppose that expenditure in every stage, and he
trusted it would not be agreed to without a thorough dis-
cussion. He believed that on this item they might save
£500,000 it year without making the manning of the navy
in any way less efficient than at present. Perhaps the house
was not aware that in her Majesty's ships the same system
was followed that was followed in the time of our grand-
fathers. There was the same number of men required, ton
for ton and gun for gun, that was required in the time of our
grandfathers, and while every merchant ship had its patent
Reference blocks and patent sheaves for saving labour, there
ce
nothing of the kind in her Majesty's ships.
been made to the officers. He did not mean to recommend
that the pay of the officers should be reduced, for they
were
too poorly paid already. (Hear, hear.) But he wanted to
call attention to a great evil that must be remedied sooner
or later. The vote which they were asked to give for the-
half-pay and reserved and retired list was £718,000. His
hon. and gallant friend said they had no officers. What was
the fact ? This year they had on the active list 96 admirals,
of whom 14 were employed. Of the list of commanders
there were 27 per cent. employed ; of the lieutenants, 67 per
cent. ; and of the masters, 73 per cent employed. There
was a superabundance of officers, especially in the higher
grades. Even at the period when we had to put out our
whole force at the close of the war with Russia, in 1855, the
active list was enough and more than enough, leaving a
great number of officers who could not find employment.
Now we ought not to take into the service a large number of
officers unless they had a fair chance of finding employ-
ment. Such a state of things created great discontent
amongst the officers who could not be employed, whilst those
who had influence at court obtained employment and promo-
tion. There was no reason why we should not be able to go to
the merchant service for the supply of our navy in cases of
emergency. The officers of the East India ships and steam-
ships were very little inferior, if at all, to those of the royal
navy, and might be called upon in time of war, along with
the reserve of seamen from our merchant ships. Altogether,
it would be well to pull down the wall of demarcation
between the navy and the merchant service.. It was
quite unnecessary that there should be any competition
between them, or that they should outbid each other in
the labour market, spending the money of the coun-
try. He had no doubt that by some such an
arrangement more than two millious might be saved to
the country without injury to the efficiency of the service. In
materials and artificers from £500,000 to £700,000 might
be saved, and in one way and another he believed that eight
or nine millions a year might be made to go as far as the
twelve millions which they were now about to vote. It was
their imperative duty promptly to look to this, because the
present amount of taxation pressed heavily on the people of
this country.
Mr. CARDWELL observed that the house would have
another opportunity of discussing the questions raised by
the hon. gentleman on the vote for the naval reserve, or on
the introduction of the bill to be brought in for manning
the navy. What the commission really recommended, as to
the reserve to be obtained from the merchant service, was not
the same as the hon. gentleman had referred to. The recom-
mendations of the commission, if adopted, would, upon their
showing, involve an expense of £600,000, to which, in the
hon. gentleman's opinion, another. £lOO,OOO was to be added.
No doubt, going over all the items, it mightbe shown that
their recommendations did involve that additional expendi-
ture ; but looking only to the subject of the naval reserve to
e 25 000 men might be sulied, well
be drawn from the merchant service,. it appeared that upon
an emergency soul t
and ready to serve their country in the
trained in gunnel"?'
hour of danger, and that the whoe expense of providing
this, according to the commissioners' recomendations, would
be £200,000. It should be remembered the impressment,
which irep, resorted to in our former wars, could no
longer
relied upon for the defence of the couutry. Such
be had

was the progress which had been made in the arts of war,
and in the construction of the arms of precision, that per-
sons promiscuously taken by a press gang were not fit to be
depended on. The report was in conformity with the evi-
dence of those who of all others were best able to form a
sound judgment, including commanders of the Coastguard,
the chief clerk of the Admiralty, the Board of Trade, the
great shipping companies, and the registrars of seamen.
Hereafter he should be prepared to defend it on its own
merits.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE exculpated the navy from the
charge of not availing itself of the improvements which had
been introduced into the merchant service. The number of
men must be apportioned to the guns ; and he did not know
that any mode had yet been discovered of redwing the
number required to manage a 32-pounder. The case of the
officers required a separate inquiry. The truth was that,
owing to the more temperate:habits of modern times, the old
officers lasted longer than they used to do. (Laughter.)
The committee presided over some years ago by Lord Sey-
mour had done a great deal of mischief. There was literally
no class of junior officers springing up. There were ships
tb at had only half-a-dozen midshipmen, where there ought
to be a score more. He regarded midshipmen as the most
useful class of officers on board. Give him plenty of good
midshipmen, and he would dispense with many lieutenants,
but a vessel without midshipmen was crippled. He thought
that when they had had a fair turn of work out of a lieute-
nant they ought to buy him out of the service. The con-
version of ships ought to be continued, but he had never
yet seen one that had been properly converted. He had paid
great attention to the subject of fuel. He was afraid to say
how much a year might be saved Under that head ; but up
to the present time the many meritorious inventions there
were for economising coal had been almost totally neglected.
He hoped that the Clyde engine builders would be allowed
a fair chance of competing with those on the Thames. The
food of our seamen had till lately been quite insufficient ;
and he should recommend the present Government to go
even further than the late one in remedying that serious
evil. He thought the men ought to be allowed a meat sup-
per. Another grievance was the dcprivaticn of the warrant
officers of their widows' pensions. These men were Chosen
from the elite of the seamen.; and while the amount of pro-
perty under their care was • now greater than ever, their
standing in the service had been much lowered. The state
of matters at Greenwich was most wretched. (Hear,
hear.) The Government ought at' nce to institute a strict
inquiry into the matter, with a view to see whether it
would not be better to give the men in the shape of out-
pensionswhat tney now cost, instead of keeping them, as at
present, in one of the worst monasteries ever established.
He strongly disapproved of the use of frigates as flagships
in hot climates. The flagship was a sort of storeship for
the squadron; and unless it was very roomy the men had
to be accommodated on the lower decks, which in hot sta-
tions were absolutely pestilential. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK observed that in the course of the de-
bate which had just taken place they had-been putting " the
cart before the horse," talking of effects instead of causes.
It would have been far better to have first discussed the
composition of the Board of Admiralty, which was the cause
of all the errors they had to deplore. It was, in fact, im-
possible with a board so constituted to avoid blundering
and extravagance. It was quite absurd to expect that, a
board, presided over by a non-professional person, and sub-
ject to a change with every new Government could ever be
placed on a satisfactory footing. Of all others the navy
was a department that required the constant supervision of
men who were possessed not only of professional knowledge
but of considerable experience. As to the question of man-
ning the navy, he must differ from his hon. friend (Mr.
Lindsay) He contended that the late board adopted the
only mode in their power to supply the deficiency of men
which unhappily existed, namely, that of offering a bounty,
(Hear, hear.) The mode in which anchors had been sup-
plied to the navy was another proof of the inefficient sys-
tem which prevailed under the present constitution of the
Admiralty. _ _

Sir F. BARING agreed that it would be more convenient
to have .a separate and full discussion on the construction of
the Board of Admiralty instead of a continuous series of de-
sultory attacks upon the system. With regard to the bounty,
it was a subject ou which he could hardly give an opinion,
for he was not aware of the circumstances under which that
step was taken. Unless, however, there was an extreme and
pressingemergency, he did not think it was a wise or prudent
proceeding. That subject, however, could be discussed ; and
with regard to provisioning the navy, the present plan was
the result of the recommendation of a committee which sat
in 18.50, and he thought had proved satisfactory. With re-
fbrence to manning the navy, he did not feel inclined to vote
money without knowing how it was to be spent, but as he
was told by the Secretary to the Admiralty that the ques-
tion would be made the subject of a bill in itself he was
content to let the matter pass. He was not informed whe-
ther the system of continuous service had been as success..
ful as was anticipated, and it could only be teSted in time
of war, when men were urgently required for manning the
navy. He thought that it was desirable to have a full in-
quiry into all the points connected with the navy, when
those who said that the naval estimates could be, cut down
with the maintenance of efficiency should be called on to
prove their assertions,_

Admiral WALCOTT wished again to point out the
necessity of the establishment of a board of men experienced
in naval architecture, whose duty it would be to consider
the various improvements and inventions 'connected with
shipbuilding and the fitting of ships of war. With respet
to the bounty, he was of opinion that it ought to be consi-
dered in connection with the feverish state of the 'public
mind and the situation of public affairs on the Continent,
which was sufficient to account for and justify such a step.
He was one of those who thought that the plan of building
ships of great length .was running into extremes. Some of
the gigantic ships that were projected or building would be,
he was convinced, perfectly useless as working or manage-
able vessels. Whenever the opportunity offered he should
be prepared to go into the questions of the constitution of
the Board of Admiralty and of manning the navy.
Lord C. PAGET had a very pleasing duty to perform in
thanking those gentlemen who had complimented him on
his manner of performing his duty, and had made many
valuable suggestions. That which had just been made for
a board of scientific men to consider the subject of naval
architecture was a very valuable one, and he also thanked
the member for Sunderland for his suggestions, which he
would lay before the Board of Admiralty.
Mr. WILLIAMS moved that the chairman should re-
port progress. . •
Lord PALMERSTON urged that the feeling of the
house was in favour of proceeding.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the general feeling of the
country was against the additional estimates that had been
submitted. Nearly two millions extra had been asked for,
without any explanation beinggiven.
After a few words fram•Lcird C. PAGET,
Mr. KINNAIRD said that with the events passing
around us, there was but one feeling in the country, that
we should place ourselves in a position of defence. (Cheers.)
The motion was negatived without a division, and the
vote fixing the number of seamen and marines was agreed
to.
•
On the next vote being put,.
Mr. WILLIAMS again moved that the chairman should
report progress ; but the motion was again negatived with-
out a division.
The following vote was then agreed •te-4479,900; for
wages of seamen and marines.
•
On the next vote, £247,212 for victuals,
Mr. WILLIAMS renewed his motion. A division -was
called for, and the usual two minutes were allowed to elapse,
but Mr. Williams did not insist on a division.
000
000 for f
otrh
ce Andt mgt.: IHty
see ffir
vci ec,e
&c.--Agreed to.
£2lO
The house then resumed.
Lord C. PAGET stated, in answer to a question, that
the navy estimates would be proceeded with on Monday.
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. GRIFFITHS asked what was the object of the bill,
and what was to be the salary of the clerk who was to be
appointed.
Mr. LOWE said he was not able to tell what the salary
was, but that would come before' the house in the shape of a
vote. The object of the bill was to enable the clerk in
ordinary to act in all times in the absence of the clerk of the
council.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked what the retiring pension
was to be.
Mr. LOWE said he was unable to answer the, question a
that moment,
Mr. BLAKCBURN said the retiring pension was about
£1,750.
On the question being put, the clause was negatived
without a division. The preamble of the bill was then
agreed to.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE MIDDLESEX (ASSISTANT-
JUDGE) BILL.

This bill passed through committee pro forma. _
HIGH SHERIFFS' EXPENSES BILL.
Mr. GRIFFITHS said that if the house read the bill a
second time he would postpone the committee till the 19th
of July, which would give ample time for consideration.
This bill was read a second time.
PUBLIC CONTRACTS COMMITTEE.

thenonotrmacintasted:_asmr.
(trtittz
on Tthheefokotwiiine
Charles Napier, Mr. Turner, Colonel Dunne, Lord Claud
Hamilton, -Mr. Westhead, Colonel North, Mr. Jackson,
Mr. Roebuck, ColonellGilpin, Mr. Newdegate, Viscount
Duncan, the Judge Advocate, Lord Lovaine, and Mr.
following
members
Departmentswere
e r Contracts
Whitbread.
TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Mr. WHITESIDE, leave was given to
bring in a bill to facilitate the transfer of land in Ireland
by simplifying the law of judgments.
The bill was read a first time.
CORPORATION OF LONDON REGULATION

BILL.
Sir G: LEWIS, in moving for leave to bring in a bill for
the better regulation of the Corporation of the City of Lon-
don, said that the bill was mostly, founded on the report of
the committee, the principal difference relating to the num-
ber of wards. The bill only dealt with the constitution of
the corporation, and did not touch the financial part of the
subject. It did not attempt to deal with the coal duties or
metage dues. These were questions which must be reserved
for future consideration. Ile did net wish to be understood
as expressing any opinion on that subject at present. The
coal duties would expire at an early period, and when that
time arrived or immediately before, it would be the most
convenient for considering that difficult question.
The bill was subsequently read a first time.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to one.

MAN AND HIS HABITS.—THIS DAY, at
Three and Half-pt, Dr. KAHN ver
Lectures at his unrivalled anEighd Original Museum,will 3,deli Tich-
borne-street, facing the Haymarket.
SYLLABUS—ldentity of Self-love and Social---The Philosophy
and Physiology of Marriage—Happy and Unhappy Unions—
Whom and when to Marry—The Great Social Evil, its real
Cure—Philanthropists and their Schemes—New Views of Men
aad Things—Dangers of Youth—Rocks of Advanced Age—
The true Glory of Middle Age—My Memoirs—Much in Little.
The Museum is open daily (for Gentlemen only) from
Twelve till Five and from Seven till Ten. Explanations of
the Models every half-hour. Admission One Shilling, in-
cluding Handbook
.: to which is appended " MAN
AND HIS HABITS." By JOSEPH KAHN, M.D., Gra-
duate in Medicine, Surgery, and Midwifery, of the Im-
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direct from the Author, 17, Harley-street, Cavendish-
square.

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L'on trouve dans la Salle de. Lecture non seulement les
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et Belge.
F. SAW LER, Proprietor, 191, Fleet-street.

THE LONDON.—S AWYE R' S famous
LONDON DINNER, consisting of two soups, two
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fixed charge of 2s. 6d. (attendance, 3d.), is served from Two
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F. SAWYER, Proprietor, 191, Fleet-street.

ELIZA COOK'S POEMS.
In One. Vol., price 55., cloth, gilt edges,
Uniform with !‘ Routledge's Series of the British Poets,"
THE POETICAL WORKS of ELIZA COOK.
With Steel Portrait and Eight Illustrations. A com-
plete edition, entirely revised by the author, and containing
all the matter that was published in the Original Four
Volumes. _

Also, lately issued at the same price,
MOORE'S (THOMAS) POEMS.
MACKAY'S (CHARLES) SONGS, &c., &c.
London : Routledge, Warne, and Routledge, Farringdon-
street.