The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-13 00:00:00

make an addition to the Ways acid Means of the next
two years in the form of indirect taxes, which my right
hon. friend will be the first to admit are of a highly ex-
ceptional character. (Hear.) I cannot find fault with
him for making that proposal to the committee. On the
contrary, I think he has exercised a wise discretion in
making the proposal now, and in that manner givirg full
notice to all persons commercially interested in the great
trades, tea and sugar, rather than postponing it to a future
session of Parliament. It may perhaps be thought strange
that I, who offered the best resistance in my power when
it was proposed to increase the tea and sugar duties,
should now follow a different coerce. But all the consi-
deratione which led me to offer that resistance, prove
how improper it would be to renew it. At the period of
resistance Parliament wasunder no pledge with reference
to the great questions before the ciuutry-. Parliament
had done nothing to affirm in any mariner the policy of
the Government with respect to the Persian war ; and
with regard to the expenditure for the Persian war, it
was estimated at an amount altogether trifling. Re-
specting the war in China, so far from having approved,
the house passed a vote in condemnation of that policy.
The estimates which were presen ed in the early part of
the year were presented as peace estimates, and it was a
most important question for consideration on what scale
our peace estimates ought to be framed. The question
of military force is intimately connected with the spirit
of our foreign p ilicy. The spirit of our foreign policy,
along with the estinates, has since then passel under
the review of the country, and I am bound frankly to
own that the opinion of the country with respect to that
foreign policy, though it may be only temporary, differs
widely from mine. It appears, therefore, plain that no
thing can be more unfair than when the country is dis-
posed to recommend a policy involving great expendi-
ture, to interfere with the right hon. gentleman, who, as
Minister of Finance, wishes to make timely provision, so
far as is in his power; for that expenditure. There is ,
another point most perplexing and embarassing to my
mind, and that is the important scale of movement in
the miscellaneous estimates. We have not only to liole
back to the rapid increase,in those estimates, extending
over several years, but we have to consider what are the
prospects f)r the future, and I am icii-ry to say that-in--
my humble and conscientious opinion those prospects are
still more gloomy and perplexing. It is quite true that
on particular occasions we cavil with or make legitimate
objections to some proposal of the Government. We
have induced them to postpone voting a museum in
Edinburgh, which, I am bound to say, is a perfectly
reasonable requirement, on a moderate scale : and we
have struck out a vote for a chapel at Paris. These
things are all very well in their way, but in the majority
of cases they are not instances where we retrench, but
rather instances where we adjourn the charge. .L.e
regards the general scale of the miscellaneous estimates,
it is impossible that they should be effectually cnt down
in this House. It is the government, and the govern-
' meat only, wisely and firmly supported by this house,
that can possibly cut them down. (Hear, hear) I may,
perhaps, be of a censorious disposition, but I frankly
own that the views of the government with regard to
public sconomy are not my views ; but, if they were,
is the government firmly and justly supported by this
House I What has happened in the last fortnight I
Have we not seen a bi 1 carried, which I believe unpre-
cedented in our history, for the wholesale increase of the
salaries of public servants, in the face of an announce-
ment supported by detailed statements from the
government to the effect that, if we vote for that Bill,
we must be prepared to see a permanent addition to the
public burdens of 200,0001. a-year. In 20 years of
criticism of miscellaneous estimates this House will not,
so far as mere money is concerned, undo as much as it
did by passing that most objectionable measure. (Hear,
hear.) I hope I shall not be thought to be exceeding
the province of an individual member of this House in
making these comments on proceedings which have re-
ceived the sanction of a large majority ; but having been
during the whole session a prophet of ill, regarding with
alarm the financial embarrassments towards which we
are drifting, and having, perhaps too freely, found fault
with my right hon. friend for proceedings in matters of
finance, I think it but fair to keep in mind an opera-
tion so remarkable and so unprecedented, as this which
proves to me that the temper of the public, reflected as
it ie by this house, is not favourable at the present
moment to economy, and which makes ie the duty of
those who think they see a storm coming, and who
wish to mitigate its force, to raise their voice in time
in the hope that something may be done to avert it, or
to render it, at al events, less formidable. I tender
my thanks to my right hon. friend for having made
this proposal. There is nothing surreptitious in its
character. It bears on its face exactly what it is.
Above all, I rejoice in the proposal on this account, that
when we come near to a state of financial embarrass-
ment we always have to recollect that two alternatives
may happen to us, either of them worse than an increase
of taxation—one, an attempt to shuffle and shamble on
from year to year with successive deficiencies ; the
other, to make loans to meet the ordinary expenditure
of the country in time of peace. In my opinion either
of these courses is most detrimental and most disgrace-
; ful to the country, and I frankly own that I feel the
1 more grateful to my right hon. friend on the present oc-
r casion, because I interpret the present proposal as a
clear sign that he is impressed with similar opinions
with regard to the weakness, the imbecility, and the
disgrace of having recourse to either of these expedients,
and as a pledge that if the necessity arises he will pro-
pose at once to meet that expenditure of the country by
the only wise, honest, and manly course—an addition
to its burdens. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. CLAY denied that be had been a party to extra-
vagant expenditure in voting for the second reading of
the Superannuation Bill. The loss which had been sus-
taioed by the abolition of the deductions need not be a
, total loss. His only objection had been to redress the
grievances of which the civil servants complained, in
being made to pay to the superannuation fund a great
deal more than was represented by the superannuation

allowances.
Mr. GLADSTONE.—What I raid on that point pro.
seeded on the joint effect of the bill and the frank
declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he
should accept and carry out the declaration of the house
without any qualification. If the hon. gentleman thinks
there ought to be a revision of salaries, let him move an
address to the Crown to that effect. I have no doubt
he will receive very considerable support. 1 will sus•
port him for one ; and I don't think that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer will feel at all disobliged to him. I
would make such a motion myself ; but, having opposed
the bill from the first, it would not have so much weight
as one proceeding from the hon. gentleman.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said it was not at all clearly
proved that the deductions were too large for the allow
antes made. All the evidence went to show that that
question was not yet satisfactorily decided. His opinion
was that the Exchequer in the end would be a loser
in-tead of a gainer, as was generally supposed. His
reason for opposing the bill was, that ho looked upon it
as a very unstatesinanlike mode of settling the question.
He bad no intention of opposing the proposition of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer now before the committee,
although he was of opinion that there were other articles
which could better bear an increase of taxation than tea.
Ile did not attach any great weight to the calculations
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had entered
into as to the tea comsumed by the different classes of
the community. It was difficult to tell how consump-
tion went. The lower classes consumed almost as much
of the higher-priced teas as the upper classes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—I did
not say anything about the quality of the tea consumed
by different classes ; it was only the quantity of which
I was talking.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY.—The calculations as to the
quantity even could not be very trustworthy. He was
glad to hear that Vac, East India Company did not feel
it necessary to apply to Her Majesty's Government for
any pecuniary aid at present. It was, however, bat a
postponed demand. Considering the financial difficulties
which had taken place in India during the last five years,
the falling off which there would be in the revenue, and
the great expenses which would be necessary in certain
departments, sooner or later the Indian Government
must come to the Imperial Exchequer for assistance.
Ile was of opinion that we were rapidly drifting to an
enormous deficiency. It must be borne in mind that a
large portion of the ways and means of this year con-
sisted of money borrowed for the Russian war which had
not been needed. It had never yet been clearly stated
how much of the money borrowed for the Russian war
had actually been spent for that purpose. Considering
that none of this money would appear in the ways and
means of next year, and that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would also lose a considerable portion of the
income-tax, a deficiency was inevitable.
Mr. TIIORNLEY understood the proposition now
before the committee to be to extend the present duties
on tea and sugar, which otherwise would be reduced or.
the Ist of April next, to the year 1860. (Hear.) If
that were so he wished to know how much money the
Chancellor of the Exchequer expected to
reso'ution ? ity of this
Mr, WILLIAMS did not see the nesess
gain by this
measure. It was not to take effect before next April,
h bad it been
and it would have been quite early ore
months'
s woo. Two
proped the firste
sufficient
noticeos were quiteez for thee
trade. He objected
to trusting the Exchequer with a balance, for he
remembered that it was because he bad a balance in the
Exchequer that the rigbt hon. gentleman had consented
to the payment of 1,100,000/. for the redemption of the
Sound dues.
Mr. HADFIELD thought that all the blame of ex-
penditure ought not to be cast on the
travagant ex
Government. There were many cases for which the
Howse was responsible, and he had on several occasions
gone into the lobby with the Government against pro-
po,itions to vote sums of money for particular purposes
to which they were opposed.
Mr. DISRAELI—I am not called
upon to enter hit glad that we are
finance. It is not ° .ae complicated question of Indian
year with rsrobable that we shall be favoured this
is extremely expe-
an 'T
nd-ian budget, but
Is which may
dheienmtatdheal, 11-se-house, prior to some appeals
curate 1- -Pia it, At the time
should endeavour to obtain a more ac-
of tai snowledge of our Indian finances.
to
that a
guaran-
tp .e passing of the charter it was
,a fund of 2,000,0001. should bees taagbrlished, to.
late at compound interest,
to form au securt y
retina then
t cfcoarmthue
so Indian stock, for vlaioh the British Government

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e 4--- ...-.4-e
-77 ~. .."--7 6 '
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virtually became responsible. It is of t . `•,reaa s'-.,; ;
• tance that we should know the a pee of •e, ee;.', P 4 .:. t ;+, , . .4,...)
ought to be informed whether that inv
_le sleliia tee
larly made, and whether the interest likit. -,1,. ,4- ky:141: 14
ilproper manner, and we ought also to tee ..-e-_;- 41:."- . - , , ,
of the whole sum fairly before res. Im v Al.----- imi4....
week ago, for a return of that nature, bet 'il' hijki notile S
been presented, though I sboall have thoughrit wae n,
simple and straightforward as it is important. I agree
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the ealcOatian -
which he has made of the comparative consumption of
tea and sugar among the different classes. The mur-
Inure of scepticism which proceeded from the hon, bare.
net behind must have arisen faint a mi-conception at
what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. The esti-
mate which the right hon. gentleman gave us ie not by
any means a fanciful one. It is founded on
pancauliesutti bien
made by a gentleman who has given g
subject, and whose results have generally been ackeo x.
ledged to be authentic. This calculation proceeded by
way of an analysis of the population cif the c,untry an
the amount of tea and sugar consumed por head, and it
was shown by it that the majority of the e.ousurners of
tea and sugar must be ranked among what are called tt e
superior classes. For instance, dome- '-,c servants figlite .
in the population to the amount of 1,500;0001. Teey
are great consumers of tea and sonar, provided by .heir
masters and mistresses, they were therefore very justly,
for the purpose of this calculation, ranged ante.,g con-
sumers
of the higher and middle classes, and in that ~,Y
it turned out that the majority of the cmistr-aori r fteaand sugar belonged to the superior e.lassee. That ai a.
has I.mg
lysis has removed an impression which been
prevalent in this country that the pres:,•ore of the indirect
taxes is mainly borne by the working classes, I under-
starld the hon. baronet to object, also, to the system
which he says at present prevails of furnishing ways and
means from borrowed money. I think he must have
misunderstood the remarks which fell from the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Ox- e,
ford on this point, for I cannot believe the right hon.
gentleman had expressed any opinion that the ways and
means of this year had been furnished in any way bjr
borrowed money. No doubt there is a nroepect 01 A
considerable deficiency, for reasons which I had an op-
portunity of explaining at the commencement of hat
session—viz., that this year you have received an ninon t
of war income-tax of not less than 3 000,0001. whicu you
will not receive next year. As far as that is concerned
you must be prepared for a vast deficiency ; but bor-
rowed money does not at all figure in our ways and _
means, When the hon. baronet says that the Sound
dues were paid out of borrowed money--
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—I did not refer at all to
the Sound dues.
Mr. DISRAELI—WeII, then, I should be glad if t' e
hon. baronet would point out what portion of the expen-
diture was defrayed by borrowed money, for the matter
is iine'of -Considerable -Importance. - There is no doubt
whatever that the sound dues were paid out of the
balances in the Exchequer, and if there had been no
balances the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he told us,
would have borrowed the money on terminable annuities.
But the Sound dues do not appear in the estimates ;
they are no part of the Committee of Supply, and no
borrowed money, therefore, enters into our ways and
means. As far as I can understand the state of our
finances, we shall have a deficiency next year fur this
simple reason—that we have been living this year upon
a large amount of income-tax which we shall not have
next year. The amount to be raised from tea and
sugar is not an amount which wll at all meet the
danger at hand. Next year, when we meets we shad
have an opportunity of expressing our opinions upon
this important subject, and for the present I shall con-
tent myself with saying that I offer no opposition to the
motion of the Chansellor of the Exchequer.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said, that at the beginniug
of the financial year there was a considerable surplus in
the Exchequer of money borrowed fer the Russian war.
That entered into the balances, and he presumed must
have supplied some part of the expenditure of the year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—I can
quite confirm what was stated by the right hon. gentle.
man opposite with regard to the estimate of the com-
parative consumption of tea and sugar by the different
classes of the community. That estimate was by no
means drawn up upon imagination, nor upon any loose
conjectures. It was derived from an accurate account
taken all over the country. It is difficult to ascertain
precisely the amount sold by private dealers to their
customers, and therefore this calculation may not be
precisely accurate ; but I have every reason to believe
that it makes so close an approximation to accuracy as
to be sufficient for all general purposes of reaeoniug.
With respect to the question of balances, it is undoubtedly
true that last year, which was substantially a year of
war expenditure, a portion of the revenue was raised by
loans, and there was a balance at the end of the year
beyond the expenditure of the year ; but it was merely a
general balance in the Exchequer, formed partly by taxa-
tion and partly by borrowed money. It is impossible to
say how much was money borrowed on loan and how
much was money raised by taxation. The duties upon
tea and sugar now in force will, unless this resolution be
passed, fall in the course of next year. They were
lowered in the course of last session—the duty on tea
from 1. 9d. to ls. 5d., the rate at which it at present
stands, and which I may observe is a lower rate than the
duty on tea has ever before been fixed at. It is always
difficult to make a calculation ot the probable produce of
a tax in future years, but in answer to the hon. member
for Wolverhampton I may say that if these r •solutions
be not passed we must contemplate a Lees of 3,000,0001.
ot revenue.
Mr. TIIORNELY—Is the committee to understand
that these resolutions will, if carried, have the effect of
imposing 3,000,000/. of additional taxation on the
people ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
proposed resolutions make no addition to the taxation
as it stands in the present year. They only arrest a re-
duction which would' otherwise take place according to
law.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—Can the right hon. baronet
state how much of the money was borrowed fur the
Russian war, and how much of that money was spent
on the war ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—What
the hon. baronet asks is impossible. The loan was net
contracted for a specific purpose, but for the general
purposes of the year. There is a return of the totes,
amount of the loans contracted during the Russian war
and of the money spent on that war. Nearer than that
I cannot go.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—How much of the last loan
was spent 1
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —There
was a sum of 4,01,0,0001. of Exchequer-bi is for which
borrowing powers were granted by Parliament, hut they
es ere never used. Those powers were hunited to the
Ist of April last, when they expired, without the Ex-
chequer being any the richer for them.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and the house
resumed.
PROBATES AND LETTERS OF ADMINISTRA
TION BILL.
After a short discussion, this bill was read a third
time and passed.
JOINT STOCK COMPANIES BILL.
This bill, with verbal amendments, passed through
committee.

CUSTOMS ACTS BILL.
This bill also passed through committee.
PROBATES AND LETTERS OF ADMINISTRA-
TION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was committed pro forma ior the purpose o
considering adruendments. The bill will be recommitted
to-morrow (Thursday).
The other orders were then disposed or, and the house
adjourned at five o'clock.

THE SELECT CO3IIIIITTEE ON OATHS
TAKEN BY MEMBERS.

Yesterday was published the report from the Select
Committee on Oaths taken by Met.lbers, together with
the proceedings of the committee.
At the first sitting Lord J. Russell, at the instance of
Mr. Disraeli, was moved into the chair. The committee
then deliberated and considered the provisions of the sth
and 6th Will. IV., c. 62. On the following day a motion
was made and question proposed by the Attorney-Gene-
ral :—" That, in the opinion of this committos, the House
of Commons is included within the followin g words of
the Bth section of sth and 6th Will. IV. c. 6'2, that is to
say, ' all bodies now by law, or by statute,. or by any
valid usage, authorised to administer or receive any
e
oath.'"
Mr. Disraeli moved an amendment, to
leave
b
out from the word "That" to the end of
the que
it comes
ition, in
order to add the words "It is expedient, et: or
to any decision on the matter referred to its investiga-
tion by the house, that this committee should obtain per.
offrom the house to hear counsel on the application
of the statute 5 and 6 Will. IV., .c. G 2, to the Houses of
otthicienaionf eritidi: ern, tghwtpiarohed,sto:blpi
a.yoygnleeeonafttvileleerm cWaonintsiii.
Ed
raar wl i an
n 3.
9th'etoth
enott.,l"—theburat
\ the committee took •
:If,t toy
qlu4etsotivoont.es
Oton
meeting
day last) into consideration an
mendment, n loved by Mr. Warren at the previous I iL-
(3.lwgearosautoigonree
orig_._vix., to ictave out from the " committee" to the end
0f the question, in order to add the words " it would b 3
expedient, regard' being had to the late period of the
session and the public and private engagements of its . .
members, that th,sy should report to the house that the
committee doem it advisable that it should be re-ap-
pointed at tho commencement of the ensuing session."
It was agreed,. however, " that the words ' that in the
opinion of this committee the stand part of the ques-
tion." The miti.l question was then put—" That in the
opinion of this co ran tittee the House of Commons is in-
cluded within the following words of the Bth section of 5
and 6 Will. 4, c. 6 2 ; that is to say, "All bodies now by
law or statute, or l ty.any valid usage, authorised to admi-
nister or receive 3 soy oath."—The committee dividMedr.:
Ayes, 13—Mr. Dill 'lsyn, Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Headiam,
Ilorstnan,Mr-Attor, 24.1-General,Mr.Roehuelc,LordsStanr-,
ley; Sir J. Pakingto tt, Lord Advocate, Mr. Vaiie Mr „
Noes, 16— dr.
ArtoD, Mr. Greer, Mr. Bowyer.
Mr. Walpole, Mr.
Cobbett, Mr. Gladsto n e, Sir G. Grey, 31r. Henley,
_Mr.
Mathis, Mr. Napier, Mr. Reit, _
r.
Macaulay,
Mr.
Whiteside, Lord J. 1 43tnnersitz M
F ierall, Mr. Craufurd,
resolution was
Wigrani, Mr. Adams, ~ m
nfoirt:itoeewainted to report to the.
ghoru.seg, aagsufiorlel.owTs :h—e Tco°ll::b.,, :—" That in the
the committeeouse of Commons. is;
vii,g wc dof
r s the 801 section of
included within the folios .
6 will. 4, c. 62 ; th at is to say. ' All bod:es now
5 and
1)4713)i:134a tmheisterrnt se,
law or staute, or by :nu valid usage, authorised to
byarainister or receive any' .oath.' Upon d,llberation,
the resolution passed in the Lwgative." Ordered, to
report • .