The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-13 00:00:00

rEIE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 13, 1857

-nareany-one-coneseated-with a public department ought
t i Tsnel the public money without th- sanction of Par-
liament, yet circumstances might arise making it abs s-
lut ly necessary and 'expedient that money should be
spent without waiting, for that sanction. His right hon.
friend ha I said that it was the practice for the Office of 4
Works to spend sums of public money without ayote
of the house ; and, hnving done so and executed the
works, that then the First Commissioner came down
to Parliament, and asked that money might be
seel for the purpose of paying the expense of the worker
carried on by his authority under the sanction of the Trea-
sury. He could assure his right hon. friend that, whatever
had been the practice in former years, such was not the
practice at present. In looking through the estimates for
the present year he found very few cases, and those of a
very pressing nature, of works for which charges were
made without the authority of Parliament. His right
hou. friend had called attention to two sums especially,
ens of which was on account of the construction of the
clock, which he would allude to at once. He found that
there was an agreement made with Mr. Dent, the maker
of the clock, to the effect that as soon as the gentlemen
to whom the matter was referred gave a certificate that
the clock was in a proper state and went well and ought
to be purchased, a sum should be paid on account. He
therefore was bound, as soon as he was called on by Mr
Dent, to ask the referees whether they would give a cer-
tificate, and on receiving it he was bound to write to the
Treasury asking for the amount a hich he thought Mr.
Dent fairly entitled to under the circumstances. Another
item was occasioned by the distribution of the Crimean
medals. That was a matter which could not te foreseen,
and 1,6001. were paid on account of it. There was a
charge for ventilation, but that matter, he believed, was
determined by a committee of that house before he was
in the office he now held. His right hon. friend had
called the attention of the house to the state of the ac-
counts of the office. He was not aware that that ques-
tion would have been brought forward, otherwise be
would have been better prepared to give explanation re-
specting it. He was bound to say that, from circum-
stances over which he had no control, he found, when be
first went to the Office of Works, the accounts in a m st
unsatisfactory state. This was owing to circumstances
which the house wonid admit rendered it to some extent
excusable. He found that the gentleman who was prin-
cipal secretary in the office had not, in consequence of
severe illness, attended the office for 11 months, and the
assistant-secretary very shortly after he (Sir B. Hall)
entered the office was seized with a malady which affected
his head. This gentleman in consequence left the office
very soon, and was now in a very unfortunate state.
Other matters connected with the office, which it was
not necessary for him now to enterupon, also contributed
to occasion the bad state of the accounts ; but be might
state that no less than 444 queries had been sent from
the Audit-office to he answered by the Office of Works,
and of them he believed there were not 30 in allusion to
the accounts passed during the time he had the honour
to fill his present office. All those 444 queries had been
answered during the time be had been in the office to
the satisfaction of the Audit-office, and he believed that
the accounts of the office were now in a most satisfac-
tTy state. He bad only to repeat, with respect to the
exoenditure on St. James's Park, a large sum of money
‘enul.i hereafter be :nsal in consequence of the course
which had been adopted.
Mr. BENTINCK thought that what had occurred
within the last few year ought to teach the house and
the country that nothing was so prejudicial or extrava-
gant as mistaken economy, and he asked why it was
that, while there was a disinclination on the part of Go-
vernment to ask for sums necessary for the defences of
the country, there appeared a disposition to make a
wasteful and extravagant expenditure for works the ne-
eessiey of which could net be justified. He thought
there ought to be some head having a general control
over the expenditure of the country, in order that there
might be a security that what money the house voted
should be applied to legitimate objects—to works neces-
sary for the safety of the country—and not squandered
on such absurd prejects as the making of a fish-pond.
The SPEAKER—I must remind the hon. gentleman
that it will be proper to discuss questions of detail in
committee, and not at present. The right hon. hart, has
confined himself to the general questien whether a cer-
tain sum of money should be expended without the sanc-
tion of Parliament.
Mr. BENTINCK said he thought he had conveyed to
the house the impression that he intended to de,cuss the
principle referred to. Hecontended that money for beau-
tifying the metropolis ought not to be supplied by the
public purse, but by means of a local rate. There was an
increase of 24,000/. for parks and gardens, whilst there
was a diminution of nearly 100,0001. for harbours of re
foge. The public money ought to be expended on useful
and national objects, and not frittered away in the man-
ner it was row done. (Hear.',
Sir D. NollilEYSthought the right hon. baronet bad
made out something like a justification of the course he
had pursued ; but whist he placed every confidence in
him, be recommended the house to watch him as aare
roely as possible. (Laughter.)
Mr. B. HOPE did not agree with the hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Bentiock) that the decoration of the me-
tropolis was not a legitimate expenditure of the taxation
of the country. If improvements were not carried on, the
metropolis would be reduced toa state of disorganisation
and oarbarism. according to the hon. gentleman no
money ought to be expended for objects in which all the
people did not participate. How he would ask the hon.
member what benefit the inhabitants of the midland
counties derived from harbours of refuge ! (Laughter.)
Lord J. MANNERS said that as the attention of the
right hon. gentleman (Sir B. Hal) had been directed to
the improvement of the lakes, he del not see why be had
not called the attention of Parliament to the subject.
(Hear.) The complaints of medical men referred not
only to the water in St. James's-park, but to the other
parks, and especially to the Serpentine. It was no new
thing for gentlemen in the position of the right hon.
baronet to be waited on by medical men with respect to
the S-rpentine. He was afraid that at the end of the
session the right hon. gentleman might endeavour to im-
press on the Treasury the necessity of interfering with
the Serpentine without consulting Parliament on the
subject ; and trusted the discussion would not terminate
without an intimation from the Government that such a
request would not be assented to without giving hon.
members an opportunity of fully considering the matter.
Sir H. WILLOUGHI3Y thought they could not ex-
aggerate the importance of the que,tien before them.
That question *as whether that house was to be a con-
trol over the public expenditure. His opinion was that
it was ontrol in the nature of moonshine. They did
not know whether the grants of last year were expended
or ee'. If the Commissioner of Works could spend
14,0001. without authority on a lake and a sewer, what
cs • trity had they that he would not spend 40,000/. ? He
asked if 8751. was not voted for that sewer last year ;
and what was the meaning of expending 3,7251. over it
now ; and what was the meaning of a Treasury minute ?
Then 11,0001. bad been expended in sending the ducks
and de e, away. Was that the suet authorised by the
Treasury lstter of the 27th of August, 1856, a few days
after Parliament was prorogued, or did he expend it
under the authority of the Trees* letter of April,
1857? Would the house sanction that sort of expen-
diture ? If so, their debates on matters of finance were
utterly useless. He trusted that a resolution would be
brought forward and carried that such expenditure was
a aielation of the privileges of that house

of Parliament. These- votes had- now increased to so '
large an amount that it was fair that Parliament should
occasionally—he did not say every year—be informed
of the grounds upon which this large_ exp-n liture
bad taken place. In making this statement be
did not wish to set a precedent for the future,
but it was only just on the part of the Govern-
ment, seeing the ex'ensive manner in which these
estimates had been criticised both in the house and the
country, that he should have an opportunity of explain-
ing the chief grounds on which the large increase had
taken place, in order that the House of Commons should
exercise its discretion and determine whether it would
proceed in the course it had pursued of annually increas-
ing certain important votes, which bad led to the aug-
mentation in these estimates. Hon. members would see.
in Parliamentary paper No. 136 of the present session
the amount under every bead of the civil expenditure as
it bad been voted since 1830. Hon. members on casting
their eyes over this statement would find that since 1838
the amount of the Civil Service Estimates had been in
creased from 2,393,0001. in that year to 6,724,0001. la-t
year. It must be admitted that this increase of expendi-
ture was not unnaturally a subject of anxiety and alarm
both in and out of the house ; but it had been caused in
a great measure by an alteration in the practice which
formerly prevailed of placing very large sums on the
Consolidated Fund. For example, when it was deter-
mined to pay the charge for the hide constabulary, that
charge amounting to 630,0001. per annum, was placed
on the Consolidated Fund, and was not found in the
civil estimates voted by Parliament. In those days all
the charges for the Board of Works, the land revenue,
the public parks and pleasure-grounds, were paid out of
the revenue of those departments before it reached the
exchequer. That practice was now altered. The house
had not only properly prevented any expenditure from
being withdrawn, after collecti -n of revenue, on its way
to the exchequer, but it had entirely abandoned the plan
of placing charges upon the Consolidated Fund, which,
never coming before Parliament, by that means escaped
the attention of the House of Commons. Every new ex-
penditure provided by Acts of Parliament was now
placed in the annual votes of Parliament, and there-
fore the house was enabled to consider not only the
question to which the expenditure referred, but
also the amount and character of that expenditure.
He did not propose to trace back these estimates so
+at. as 1838, but in the discussions, which took place
in the last session, and in the speeches since made out
of Parliament, it bad almost become as familiar as a
houseLold word, that the Civil Service Estimates bad in
creased during the short period between 1852 and 1856
by 2,300,000/. He was free to admit that this increase
was not only a &dug subject for discussion by that
house, but also by all who took an interest in the econo-
my of the public service • and this being the point to
which public attention had more particularly been drawn
be proposed, avoiding a discussion of individual esti-
mates in committee, to call attention to the amount in
which this large expenditure had taken place, that the
house might see the exact amount of this increase and
the distribution of that ansouut, and determine whether
it would proceed in the same course that it had of late
years pursued. As to-the increase of expenditure, the
Government were not. responsible. Every shilling of
that amount bad been voted by the House of Commons,
and resulted from the deliberations and decisions of Par-
liament. -It was therefore proper that the house should
no w have the opportunity. of seeing the result of the va-
rious acts that it had done during the last 4 or 5 years,
and of coming to a determination whether it would pro-
ceed in the same course for the future. He would now
read to the house the amount of the Civil Service Esti-
mates from 1852 to 1856. 1852, 4,407,7541 ; 1853,
4,802,318/. ; 1854, 6.648,522/. ; 1855, 6,686,062/. ;
1856, 6,724,250/. Toe committee would obs.rve that
the estimates of 1854 showed an advance of 2,000,0001
upon 1852 ; that the estimates of 1855 were somewhat
less than those of 1854, and those of 1856 were some-
what greater. However the estimates fur the last three
years —1854, 1855, and 1856—were nearly the same,
the great increase having taken place in 1854. He
would now give the increase of the estimates of the fol-
lowing years as compared with those of 1852. That in-
crease was asfellows;-1853, 394 6591.; 1854, 2,240,7691.
1855, 2,178,3031. ; 1856, 2,316,4961. -What he pro-
fited was, not to trace the causes of the increase in each
year, but to take the year 1856—the year of the largest
amount—and to represent the causes of the increase of
the years 1854 and 1855. In the first place, he must re-
mind the house of the existence of a strong feeling mani-
fested by the house on many occasions, and most of all
expressed by his hon. friend the member for Lambeth
(dr. Williams), as to the inconvenience and loss that
arose from the fact that a large portion of the expendi-
ture imbedded in acts of Parliament was annually paid
out of the gross revenue on its way to the Exchequer,
that in these eases the House of Commons had no oppor-
tunity of saying a word on a single shilling of that ex
pentliture, and bad a opportunity of controlling it. His
right hon. friend Mr. Gladstone took steps to -remedy
this defect, and among the' many signal services per-
formed by that right hon. gentleman none were of greater
importance than this. Featly in the session of 1854_ the
Treasury prepared, at the request of the Government; it,
bill for the purpose of transferring from the Consolidated
Fund all charges of a nature that could, be voted,by,Par-
liament, and withdrawing from the Customs, the_ Exche-
quer, and the other revenue dep'arttnents all payments
either for salaries or other purpoes. In pursuance' of
that bill the House of Commons in 1854 removed frowi
the Consolidated Fund 34 items of public expenditure.
Therefore, in 1854 they voted for the first time for these
items no less a sum than 977,6001. By the same act they
transferr d from the Customs 12 votes amounting to
205,800/. They also transferred from the navy and the
commissariat votes to the extent of 29,6001. Fur post-
ages transferred from army, navy, and gross revenue,
they annually voted 85,0001. lii addition to that, it bad
been the custom to pay a great number of persons by
fees, but the house having condemned that practice, sala-
ries had been paid instead and the fees .handod over to
the Exchequer. In soma cases these fees had been con
. . _

verted into stamp duties. Therefore a considerable num-
ber of new votes were represented by fees paid annually
into the Exchequer, or by stamp duties in lieu of fees,
the total amount of them being 138,0001. Adding these
various sums together, it would be found that no less

than 1,436,000/:of the increase of 2,316,006/ had
been transferred from the other funds by which they
had previously been defrayed, and were now borne on

the annual votes of Parliatnen;. This reduced the large
amount of 2.316,0001. which looked so alarming when
stated by itself, to only 880,0001. There was an in-
crease for education in- Great Britain of 291,0001—
in Ireland, 63,0001. ; the department of science and art,
25,0001.; and the National Gallery, 15,0001.—making
toge;her 394,0001. A very large increase would spin
be found in the educational vote this year ; and it the
present system was to continue they must txpeet the
augmentation of this item to proceed still further. In
1852 the entire educational votes, including England
and Ireland, science, art, and the National Gallery,
amounted to 440.0001. In 1838 the corresponding sum
was only 30 0001; 1836 it had risen as high as
759,000/. The awn proposed for the present year was
850,000'.; the vote for England alone considerably ex-
ceeded half a million. This was a charge which was
entirely under the control of Pediment, and while such
conflicting opinions Were held in this country on the sub-
ject of education, it most he some consolation to those
who were in favour of its tx'ensiou to know that tles
cause they had at heart was not being neglected either by
the Legislature or the G • riment. The next item was
for Holyhead harbour and other harbJure of refuge.
Upon this the increase in the plan of last year, as com-
pared with that of 1852, was 150,0001: When the first
vote for Holyhead Harbour was taken, a very large
scheme was proposed to Parliament, founded on the re-
commendation of the. Admiralty ; but owing to the
jealousy of Llverpool and the neighbouring ports, toge-
ther with a scepticism on the part of that house as to the
utility of the project, the undertakit g was reduced from
a plan that would cost 1,200,0001.—tbe original sum
suggested—to one th-at would cost only 808,000/. The
smaller project was the one actually adopted ; but to such
a remarkable degree had the expectations of those who
advocated the more extensive scheme been realised, that
even during the progress of the works the harbour was
so much resorted to in its incomplete state, and so inade-
quate to receive the veisels having recourse thereto, that
the Government had been compelled to come down to
the house and propose increase after increase in the vote
until they had reached the highest amount contemplated
in the original plan, and the present estimate was
1,980,0001. The following table, taken from the report
of Cafe !sin Skinner, the superintendent of Holyhead
harbour, showed the number of vessels which had en-
tered from 1852 :

Mr. AYRTON tendered his thanks to the right h
baronet (Sir B. Hal), but when he came to the explana-
tion he did not hear a word of it. He trusted that
another time when he got up to make an explanation he
would make himself hoard. (Oh.)
Mr. MOWBRAY remarked that this was not the
only unauthorised expenditure. Last year there was an
expenditure of several thousands on fireworks—(a laugh)
—without authority, though Parliament was sitting.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXOEIEQUER said,
with regard to the fireworks, it would be in the recollec-
tion of gentlemen who were members of the house at the
time that the question was asked about the amount of
the expenditure, which was answered by members of
the Government, and it was stated that the money would
be paid out of the civil contingencies, which, as the house
was aware, were voted in a gross sum.
Mr. HENLEY said Sir F. Baring bad complained
that Government without sufficient cause had expended
money without ;he sanction of Parliament, and the an-
swer that the fireworks were paid for out of the civil
contingencies did not give them aoy security that such
expenditure woull not be repeated. The Commissioner
of Works having suspended the proposed suspension
bridge at the close of the last sessi m of Parliament got
authority from the Treasury in August to do certain
other things. That certainly was a queer time, just after
the close of Parliament. He thought something bad
happened to the right hon. baronet from his short con-
nection with the Board of Health. He always thought
that when a person was inoculated with sanitary views it
was a bad thing for their pockets. (A. laugh.) He hoped
that his successor would not go through the same train-
ing. He quite agreed with the hon. member for Norfolk
as to the injustice of taxing the c }untry at large for the
benefit of the metropolis, but that objection did not
apply in this case, as trims money was used for one of the
royal parks. s _ s

No. Tonnage.
1852 ... ••• 514 ••• 34 650
1853 1,293 ... 106,392
1854 ... 1,788 . 137,058
1855 ••• ••• 1,607 ... 119.413
18.56 ... 2,394 ••• 193666
The importance of this harbour was very great, because
not only did the Irish postal packets ga to and from it,
but it was for the convenience of the metropolis that the
American steamers should land their letters, arc., when
they arrived off Holyhead. One cause of the large in-
creme upon this and similar works was that it was found
advisable to complete them as expeditiously as possible.
It was due therefore to the exertions of the late Mr.
Rendell, who had NO the supervision of this harbour,
and whose great professional-abilities everybody would
admit— (bear)—that they had been able to expend a
large sum in the execution of this undertaking in a sin-
gle year. If important public works of this kind were
to be carried out at all the quialter they were advanced
the better for the interests of the community. (An
ironical cry of " Hear, hear !") While the works con-
tinued unfinished a .vast. ciapital was lying idle from
which the public .derived—no advantage, whereas—as
ho begged to remind hen. gentlemen who cheered—the
sooner they were brought to completion the sooner
would the country reap the benefit of its expenditure.
Although Holyhead and 'some ether-harbours would not
continue to be an annual charge- to this extent, yet, from
the interest generally taken in the' state of the harbours of
refuge along our ooast, and from the absolute-necessity of
these improvements, not only for the sake of the navy but
for the safety of life and leropertytonnected with our
mercantile marine, it would be forthe house to determine
whether it would persevere fn eutlays of this ddscription
in time of peace. The next head of charge wee printing
and stationery, the amount of which-would no doubt pro-
duce come surprise. The increase since
1852 was no less
than 211,0001. He should not 'be doing justice to Mr.
M'Culloch, who was at the head of this department, if he
did not state his belief that no public servant had exerted
himself wore than that. gentlemen- had" done to eieonomise
an keep down this expenditure; 'although certainly his
control over it was but limited, -the head of the stationery
blanch being as it were but a sort of warehouseman for the
other departments. The charge for'stationer had aug-
mented as follows :

The motion that the Speaker leave the chair was then
agreed to, and the house went into commmitteN
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

The house then went into Committee of Supply, Mr.
FITXROT in the chair.

Wr. WILSON said that before placing in the hands
of the chairman the first vote which be intended to pro-
pose he designed, in pursuance of the notice he had
given, to make a general statement with regard to the
great ,increase that had taken place in the expenditure
upon certain votes in the Civil Service Estimates. The
hon. baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) bad, indeed, ques-
tioned whether he would be quite in order in making
that statemont after going into Committee of Supply.
As far as he was concerned it was a matter of indiffer-
ence whether he male that statement before going into
Committee of Supp'y or in Committee of Supply; but
the question having been referred to the right hon. gen-
man in the chair, to whom it must be the wish of the
house to defer, and the right hon. gentleman having, as
he thought, on good grounds decided that this statement
would be beet male in Committee of Supply, he hoped
that he should be held to pursue the best and most con
sistent course in adopting that plan. He was aware that
it .
was a noveLpractice to make a general statement on
going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Service
Estimates, but circumstances bad somewhat chaned of
late iu regard tg
these esticuates. Some 'years ago the
Civil Service Litimates amounted to a very email sum.
in
It was customarythose days to place every descrip
tion of civil expenditure upon the Consolidated Fund,
but a more .whele.seme and Parliamentary course bad
bun aicipttd, cfplarOng this Expenditure uken the Yob's

In 181B'it WAS

In 1852
In 18513
This Allgraentation R as subject, to a diminution which th 3

committee would view with satisfaction. The difference
between the items for 1352 and 1856 (242,00'0 was
composed thus :—the printing of patents had been trans-
ferred to the Stationery Department ; and though that
item now cost the country 40,0001. a year, which was
included in this vote, yet the amount of fees paid inio
the Exchequer was upwards of 100,000/. Instead, there li
-
fore, of this forming a charge, it was on the whole a
source of profit to the Exchequer. There was a sum of
30,00 C/. in respect of a transfer to the stationery-office
for the purchase of stamps on parchments, which were
repaid by the public in the purchass of those stamps.
Thera was therefore an amount of 70,00 1., which con-
sisted of a mere transfer from the Patent-office and the
Inland Revenue-offiee. Besides, the war had caused a very
large increase in the demand for stationery. The hours
was probably aware that it had been the policy of the
Government for many years past to bring into the St,-
tionery office the whole of the business connected with the
purchase of paper, books, and the printing of documents
for all the public departments ; and even to such an ex-
tent had that been carried that the cartridge paper for the
regiments had been purchased at the Stationery-office by the
Orinanoe Department. ( Rear.) It was obvious that the
gentleman who was at the head of the Stationery-office,
and who had frequently to make contracts with paper
manufalturers for every description of paper, was more
likely than the superintendent of the Ordnance Depart-
ment to enter into an advantageous contract for the sup-
ply of paper for the service of the army. In the War
Department there had been an increase of 65,0001. and
in that of the Admiralty ari
increase of 16,000/. making to-
gether 81,00 J/., a large portion of which might be considered
as temporary and attributed to the late war. As might
naturally be expected from the increase of public business,
the printing of that boys) had increased during the last few
year... There was an increase of 13,000/. under that bead.
The Treasury and the Stationery-office would only be too
happy to check, if possible, that expenditure. The house
was aware that it rarely happened that motions for the
printing of returns were opposed by the Government ; and
why? Simply because the hon. members who made these
motions almost invariably said that they intended to found
resolutions upon the papers for which they asked. But
when the papers were printed, and they were frequently
very bulky, not more than five or six persons cared to read
or look at them. Thera were also increased charges as
follows : Parliamentary stationery, 3.000/. ; Foreign-
office, 3,000/ ; Board of Trade, 4,000/. ;',Board of Cus-
toms, 8,000/. ; Board of Inland Revenue, 17,000/. ; Post-
office, 16,000/. ; Prisons and Convicts, 4,003/. The
house would find that Mr. M'Culloch had in hie report
fully explained the case of the increase in the estimates
for stationery for this year. That increase was mainly
owing to the war with Russia; but, independently of that
cause, a vast amount of printed forms, mrps, &c., had to
be supplied to those military and naval schools which
had been recently opened, and the libraries opened in
barracks, gaols, &e., also helped to increase the expendi-
ture for stationery, printing, &c. Mr. M'Culloch very
wisely suggested that the books and stationery supplied
to public schools and other establishments were of a too
costly description. and that if they were of an inferior
quality they would answer their purpose quite as well.
Re (Mr. Wilson) gladly availed himself of that oppor-
tunity to testify that there was not in the public service
any one who was more anxieus to promote the public
interest than Mr. M'Culloch. (Hear.) The next head of
increase was that of prisons and convict establishments,
and the amount of the increase was 114,907/. That was
a subject which recent discussions in that house rendered
peculiarly interesting. The particulars of that increase
would indicate to hon. members the steps, which had been
taken by the Government since 1852. The following was
a tabular comparison under this head between the
charges in 1812 and 1856 :

1852. 1856.
Inspection and general superintendence £16,196 £16,783
Government prisoners at home and aproad 275,921 415,90'
Maintenance of prisoners ... 159,123 161,595
Expenses of transportation ... ... 101,041 25,485
Convict establishuients in colonies ... 253,586 288,605

£791,467 £906,374
The house would no doubt be surprised at the vast ex-
penses for convict establishments in the colonies, after
the abandonment of the transportation system some three
or four years ago ; but it ought to be borne in mind that,
although they had ceased to send convicts to the colonies,
there was yet a very large number of convicts there whose
sentences must expire before they could be set at liberty.
For some considerable time, therefore, an establishment
as vast almost as that which was in existence when the
transportation system was abolished would have to be
maintained. But that was not all ; for, about two years
ego, in consequence of the increased cost of living in Aus-
tralia, the salaries of the officers who superintended the
convicts had to be increased, and the maintenance of the
convicts had also become more expensive. This country,
therefore, had at the present moment to bear the expense
of two systems for the punishment of convicts, and it
would be some time before one of them—viz., the trans-
portation system—ceased to be a charge upon the country.
The number of prisoners in England and llrela.nd during
the year 1452 was 12,172 ; in 1856 it was 12,769, bein,
an increase of 597 ; so that no-withstanding the ces-
sation of transportation for the last few years, the io-
crease of prisoners in the home prisons was only 597,
which was rather surprising when one thought of the great
outcry which was made a few months ago about the alarm
ing increase of crime in England. Hon. members were
aware of the improvement which had taken place within
the last few years in the management of the home prisons.
That improvement especially marked the prisons in Ireland,
/tool
,it; was due in great measure to the visit of the right
hbti.lbaronet the member for Carlisle to the convict estab-
lishment at Spike. Island when he was First Lord of the
Admiralty. In England there had been built since 1852
'prisons at Brixton, Chatham, and Fulham, and in Ireland
at Cori( and Phillipstown, the annual expenditure of which
was 80,917/.. so that it appeared that more than the whole
in'ereaAe- was attribetable to prisons erected since the year
in question, and not to any increased expenditure con-
pectki with prisOns existing at that time. The next in-
crengie to which he would refer was that in respect to public
buildings, amounting to 81,0001. Upan palaces in the
occupation of her Majesty the increase was only about
3,000/. ; upon those partly occupied by her Majesty the
increase was very trifling ; and upon palaces not so occu-
pied at all the difference was also inei4ni6cant. The great
increase arose under the head of buildings for the public
departments placed under the charge of the Board of
Works. In England thelcharge for public buildings had
increased by 6:,5171. ; in Scotland by 12,5001. In the first
instance, this him ease included the rent of offices hired on
the part of the public, which in 1852 was 8,8321., and in
1856, 42,6381. ; the cost of furniture in 1852 being 23,600/.,
and in 1856, 34,9721. This increase had arisen in a great
rt ea ,nre from the consolidation of the War Departments,
and from the great number of public offices now hired for
temp ,racy purposes, such as commissions. The sums altoge-
ther amounted to somewhat more than the balance he had
to account for, but he had only taken the principal items,
prefe -ring not to weary the committee with the small changes
involving a decrease of expenditure which had taken
place. They arrived, therefore, at this comparison be-
ta een 1852 and 1856:—The increase of which they had
heard so much was 2,316,496; :

Transferred from consolidated fund and gross
revenue
E iucation
Holyhead harbour ..... .
Printing and stationary
Prisons and convicts
Public buildings

showing an increase of 25,871
And beyond that large additional amount of correspondence
which the Foreign-office had to conduct, the introduction
of the telegraph system had added almost as much to the
labours of that department, in communicating by that
means, as their correspondence in the shape of despatches
bad been augmented. In the Treasury the increase had
also been very large. Notwithstanding this large increase
of business, and notwithstanding there had been a revision
of these establishments, which led to an increase in the
salaries and incomes of the leading officers, who had in-
tellectual work to perform, there had been little or no in-
crease iu the genera, amount expended for salaries. Taking
the Treasury, the Home-office, the Foreign-office, the Co-
lonial-office, the Council-• ffice, and Education Department.,
the Board of Trade, the Office for the Registry of Seamen,
the Office of Paymaster-General, the Offic• of the Con-
troller-General, the Office of Public Works, the Depart-
ments of Works and Woods, the State Paper-office, the
Poor-Law Boards for the United Kingdom, the Mint- .ffice,
the Office of Inspectors of Factories and Mines, the Office of
the C iief Secretary for Ireland, the office of Public Works
for Ireland, and the office of the Paymaster of Civil Ser-
vices (Ireland), and one or two others, the whole of the
salaries in 1632 amounted t• 332.8991., and in 1857 to
332,9761., being an increase of only 771. But that was not
all. The creation of a new department in the Board of
Trade, in order to carry out the Mercantile Marine Act,
bad led to an increased expenditure in that department
of 12,0001. There was also a new charge of 7,6251. for the
inspectors of mines, in pursuance of a bill passed by that
house. Deducting these two items, together about 20,000/.,
from the gross aruouut of salaries, it would be seen that
there was an absolute reduction of 20,0001., as compared
with the salaries of 1852. The committee would therefore
see that while an enormous increase of expenditure had
taken plate, it had arisen on items over which that house
had a direct control, and had, in almost every instance, ex-
pressed that opinion, and sometimes put a pressure upon
the Government ;while, with regard to that expenditure
which was peculiarly within the control of the Govern-
ment, where, if there was prodigality at all it would have
been shown, and notwithstanding the large increase of
1 business there was an absolute diminution in the aggregate
salaries of all these public offices of 20,0001., instead of any
increase. (Hear.) It was not for him to recommend any-
thing to the house more than any other hon. member; but
there was one particular point which his experience of the
Treasury induced him to recommend to the special atten-
tion of the house, if they wanted to study and promote
economy. Above all things, they ought to look with a
jealous eye upon every proposition, from whatever quarter
it might come, I ,r removing local expenditure and placing
it on the consolidated fund. (Hear, hear.) He believed
that there was nothing which had led to greater abuse—
nothing which was more detrimental to anything like
•sonoeay and. good public service than that course. The
great argument against a common poor-rate payable out of
the national revenue was, thatit would destroy all local con-
trol ; and the same argument was exactly applicable to
local charges placed on the consolidated fund. So long as
these charges were local, everybody was interested in see-
ing them reduced to the lowest amount. The instant they
were placed on the consolidated fund everybody was try-
ing to get the largest share of a vote. (Hear, hear.) In
1835, Parliament consented to take upon itself the charge
of one-half the cost of prosecutions throughout the coun-
try. So long as they only paid one-half no great harm
occurred; the counties having to pay the other half, the
country had the wholeseourity of their vigilance in watch-
ing the expenditure for that purpose. Unfortunately in
1816 the house consented to take upon the public expen-
diture the other half. The object might be good, but the
consequences had been most prejudicial ; for, the localities
having no longer any motive for vigilance, the sum had
increased until at last the revenue was saddled with a
quarter of a million a-year as the cost of prosecutions. To
such a❑ extent had this gone that the Government bad
been obl:ged, iu the last three or four years, to send round
Treasury officers for the purpose of checking that expen-
diture, and they had succeeded in reducing it very con-
siderably. In Scotland alone, out of 30,0)01., 5,0001. or
6,00)/ had been struck off ; and in the total quarter of a
million the saving was in about the same proportion. Still,
after all, the control thus exercised was very imperfect.
Without saying that the county magistrates wished to
swell these expenses, he must observe that they were not
so vigilant as when the charge was paid out of the county
rates ; and he mentioned it as an illustration of the evil
and danger of consenting to any removal of these charges
Lfrom local to the general funds. (Hear, hear.) He would
conclude by placing in the hands of the chairman the
irst vote :
134,1461. to complete the sum necessary to defray the
expenses of royal palaces and public buildings.
Sir J. PAKINGTOM said the Course the honourable
gentleman had taken of making his statement after the
Speaker had left ,the chair was a very inconvenient one.
It was a bad precedent to establish, because of course if a
member of the Government could enter on such a statement
at such ktime, any member of 112) house might do the same
thing, and thereby greatipecavenience might be the result.
The hon„ Igentleman,had aliuded to the right hon, gentleman
the member for Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) as having been the

• 1,438,000
. 394,000
. 180,000
. 241,000
. 114,000
. 81,000

£2,446,000
Unfortunately this was not all. There was a very large in-
crease in the estimates of the present year, and he should
now endeavour to show hovr'that increase arose :
Increase. Decrease.

Class I.

24,882

.....
380,046
IV.
__ V.
„ VI. .
Showing a net increase of nearly 600,0001. in the estimates
of the present year as compared with 1656. To these items
he would now call attention. In the first place he found
that education figured fora large proportion of the increase.
The vote for education this year in excess of that for 1856
amounted for England to 90,0001. ; for science and art the
increase was 9,3101. ; the National Gallery, 5,5261. ; the
British Museum, 34,0001. In respect to the National Gal-
lery, he might say in passing that the increase which hal
taken place was occasioned by the splendid bequest of the
late Mr. Turner, and he thought that no member of this
house would begrudge the 5,0001, spent in providing for
the magnificent selection of pictures so given to the na-
tion. (Hear, hear.) Here therefore was an increase of
138,7261. attributable to he items of education, science,
and art. Then hon. members would bear in min 1 that
last year a bill was passed by what a portion, not ex-
ceeding one-fourth, of the police-rates of counties and
boroughs was pai l out of the consolidated fund. An
attempt was made to induce his right hon. friend (Sir G.
Grey) to consent to a larger expenditure on this head, and
it was not the fault of the House of Commons that such an
expenditure did not take place. (Hear, hear.) As it was,
the charge for riolice under the Act of last year amounted
to 145,980/. Then, another bill was passed respecting
County Courts, upon which there was a strong combination
which the Government found themselves wholly unable to
resist. They proposed what they believed to be a fair and
liberal remuneration w the registrars, but the house doub-
led the amount they proposed by a majority of nearly two
to one. He thought, therefore, that the Government were
at all events not responsible for this very large increase of
expenditure—(bear)—an expenditure which this year
amounted to less than 195,2121 , though it would be some-
thing less in future years. Then, again, hon. members con-
sented to a heavy charge upon the consolidated fund in re-
spect to the salaries of the judges, in which perhaps they
exercised a wise discretion, instead of making those sala-
ries a matter of annual discussion in Parliament. Ag tin,
however, the Government had a very narrow escape, a de-
mand which had nearly been successful being made that
the salaries of the county court judges should be increased
by 20,0J0/. a year. Under the bill to which he alluded the
total cost to the country would be, at the very le tat,
231 0001. a year, thus made up :—There would be an an-
nual charge upon the votes of 114,320/. ; the salaries charg-
ed upon the consolidated fund would be 76,9001. ; the com-
pensation given to judges of local courts replaced by the
county courts, 10,000/. ; making altogether, 231,5121. Ano-
ther point upon which the Government were foiled by the
house had reference to the fees charged in these courts. It was
argued that justice should be made as cheap as possible to
the poor man. But he thought, judging from what bad
happened, it would be found that, instead of making justice
cheap to the poor man, Parliament had encouraged au
amount of litigation which woul,i compel it in a very short
time to reconsider its decision. In moat cases he believed,
particularly in the manufacturing and mining districts pos-
sessing a large population, the business of these courts bad
increased by 50 per cent. Now, if that increase represented
legitimate attempts on the part of small traders to recover
their debts, it could not be objected to. But he was told
that small traders and hawkers, who in populous places
went from door to door tempting dour people to buy upon
credit, were systematically making use of these courts for
the collection of their debts. They first induced peoile to
take credit, forcing their goods upon thew, and as scon as
their customers gol into debt to the extent of 20?. or 255.
they put them into the County Court, obtainedjdgment
for a fee of 9d. or ls., and then got the debts .ollected
trough an officer of the caurt at the rate of, perhaps, ls.
per week. In many cases it was found that these haw-
kers trusted the same persons again, and the semi process
took place until the bailiffs of the court in these districts
were feet becoming mere collectors of these small traders.
He had dwelt upon those subjects at some length because
out of the total increase of 594,636/. in 1857 as compared
with 1856 no less a stun than 341,19'2/. was entailed by the
two measures of which he had been speaking, passpd :in the
lest session of Parliament. He wished to show the House
of Commons that it really lay with them, rather than with
the Government, to support measures of economy, and
that in some instances the Government had been striving
to enforce economy while the House had preferred some-.

thing akin to extnaltagan—c—e.—TheiriTiiillni present year person who bad brought the -Lt tare country tine—
there was an increase of 24,549 k in prison end convict es- der the annual consideration of Parliament, but he (Sir John
tablishrnents; and in public buildings, alsoi there was an Pakington) must remind the hon. gentleman that the right
increase of 24,8821. Here, •again, was an increase attri- hon. gentleman the member f r Buckinghamshire (Mr. Dis-
hatable to the House of commons, and not to the Govern- raoli) had previor.sly arum-raced his in_ention of taking the
ment. Some years ago, a committee sat upon the Dublin same s ep. He (Sir J. Pakington) must express the satisfee-
hospitals. Every one felt that to vote 16,0001. or 20,0001. tion he felt at ;the statement which had been made by tl re'-
a-year to the Dublin hospitals, and nothing to the hospitals hon. gentleman. It was clear ant satisfactory. The iucreise
of Edinburgh, London, or other large towns, wee an abuse, in the expenditure had no doubt been caused by the changes
and the house determined that the vote should be reduce d, in the times, and the improved position of the country. He
by 1,.0001. a year until it expired altogether. The vote I highly approved of the measure of last year for the mpeove-
was in process of extinction, and had been brought down' rr eert of the county I olice. That had caused art in reascd cx-
in 1853 to 13,0001. when the hon. member for Dublin I Nose, but it had been a most judicious expenditure. With
gave notice of a motion for recurring to the original regard to the expenditure for education, he should be glad to I
vote. Ha (Mr. Wilson) being then, as now, at the see that expenditure increase year by year, provided we re-
Treasury opposed the motion, but be was beaten in a tole- i ceived a full equivalent for the money so spent. He did nut
rabty full house; and the hon. member obtained the ap- believe that at present we did receive that equivalent. '
pointment of a committee. The committee was fairly com- Mr. BRIS OE said the remarks of the Secretary for the
posed, and they recommended that the original vote of I Treasury had applied to the expenditure of the last five years
16,0001. a year should be retained, and that it should be but be had said nothing about the expenditure for this year
made permanent ; so that there again the Government iof 1857. It had been said in another place that the House of '
was foiled by the House of Commons, and they had nothing Commons had abdicated its functions as guardians o the
to do but to carry out the views of Parliament. The con- , üblic purse. He for one protested against th t imputation,
sequence was that 19,000/. figured this year in the esti- and would do all he could to show how unfounded it was. He
mates for the Dublin hospitals. Then there was a further wished to know why a charge of 21s, bad been made on the
additional charge of 12,000/. for the constabulary, and inhabitants of Hampton Court for keys to enter the park
some alteration in the Court of Chancery ; and thus np- with ?
wards of 560,0001 out of the 593,6661. of increase was al- Mr W. EWART thought the public ought to have free ac-
counted for. The remainder was composed of small sums, cess to that park. •
but the increases which he had now complained wore— Mr. W. WILLIAMS contended that the course pursued by
On education, science, and art, &c - £90.00 Mr. Wilson had led to great inconvenience. Ho had gone
Police for counties and boroughs 145,981 into a general review of the expenditure for the civil service;
County Courts 195,212 and he (Mr, Williams) contended that they were very extra-
Prisons-an I convict establishments 21,543 vagant
Public buildings 24,8.2 Mr. AYRTON thought the country was mach indebted to
Dublin hospitals... 19.000 the late Mr. Hume for urging the transfer of the charges for-
Court of Chancery and constabulary '2,000 merly paid out of the consolidated fund to the estimates; and
The total increase from 18.52, including the estimates for to the rght hon, n.ember for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) was due
the present year, amounted to no less than 2,978,0001,—0r i the creditof being the first Chancellor of the Exchequer who
nearly 3,000,0001. in five years upon the Civil Service Esti- adopted that suggestion.
mates : Col. SYKES had no means of judging whether the sums
The amount transferred was - £1,436,00 asked for in these votes were necessary or not. Here was
Education, Sec 532.726 6,2181. demanded for Hampton Court Palace and grounds ;
Holyhead Harbour
Printing and stationery
Prisms an I con victs,law and justice 486,04 for the officer of the War Secretary, without any explanation
Public buildings
Of that amount 1,436,0001. represented charges tr.nsferred tee beforehand. to examine them and say how far they were
from other branches, while 1,515,682', represented altoge- necessary.
ther new charges or increases upon old charges. He had ' Mr. EWART concurred with Mr. Wilson that the principle
new stated as clearly and distinctly as he could the grounds of local government should bo as far as pd sible carried out
upon which these respective increesee rested, and he in regard to the police and the criminal jurisclicti n generally.
thought that the committee would agree with him that the He would also extend hat principle to national education, for
causes lay in a very small compass. The questions in whi h he believed they would never have a satisfactory system of
the Government were' particularly concerned were few in national education until it was established on the popular
number ; they were matters peculiarly fitting for the con- principle, paid by the people and managed by the people.
sideration and decision of Parliament; they were all ques- Mr. STAFFORD never remembered any Parliament in
tions of high policy and not of small Governmental details; which the army and navy estimates had been voted so easily.
they were all questions mixed up with the interests, social Remembering the pledges many hon. gentlemen had so re-
and commercial, of the country, and, therefore, they were cently given at the hustings, he confessed himself.surprised
especially subjects which Parliament ought to deal with. that so little attention bad been paid to the gre A qUestion of
The committee, would shortly be called upon to vote items retrenchment in the public expenditure, and remarked that
similar to those which he had been explaining. They would apathy and indifference of hon. members in this respect ope-
then have an opportunity of discussing the principles upon rated as an inducement, an encouragement, and even a sti-
which the expenditure of the year was based, and of de- mulus to extravagance on the part of the Government
tiding whether this large increase of expenditure for edu- Viscount PALMERSTON came to elude a different con-
cation was to be allowed. His own impression was that elusion from that which the hon. gentleman had (hewn from
they would decide, not only that the vote now proposed the course the house had pursued in regard to the military
should be sanctioned, but that it should go on increasing and naval estimates. The hon. gentleman inferred that be-
Klear.) They would have the opportunity of considering cause no- great objections were offered to those' e-timates,
whether they would go on expending the moderate sum of hon. members had forgotten the pledges they gave at the
200,000/. a-year—for, after all, it was a moderate sum for a hustings to enforce economy, and had shown a blameable
great country like this to expend—sin the improvement of want of Industry in not making themselves masters of the de-
harbours of refuge. (Hear.) He should propose next week taila'of the several votes. He (Lord Palmerston) must beg
the appointment of a committee to consider this subject as leave to draw an exactly opposite conclusion from that fact.
a whole question, and to devise some scheme for system- (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He inferred, and was justified in
atically improving our coasts, with a view both to safety inferring, that if there had been no prolonged discussions on
and commercial purposes, and to the improvement of the the army and navy estimates, it arose from this plain and
fisheries on the coasts of Scotland aed of Ireland. If the simple fact—that hon. members having paid attention to
house should agree to a policy of that description, it would these details—having exercised great industry—(laughter)—
very probably be incumbent on Parliament to vote a con- in making themselves masters of them, and in comparing the
siderable sum of money annually for that purpose, in order estimates now presented with those which were presented
that they might proceed on some intelligible and system- during the war were struck with surprise—as he knewmany
atic plan, instead of working piecemeal and without sys- were—(loud laughter) —that the Government ha I been en-
tern, while Irish members were crying out for votes for abled in so short a space of time, to make such great reduc-
Irish harbours, Scotch members for Scotch harbours, and tions in regard both to the army and navy. Theref re he
English members all round the coast for harbours for the took it as a tribute of praise to the care and attention which
different places which they represented. (Hear.) They the Government had bestowed on the economical ar.ange-
would have an opportunity also of considering whether they meat of these branches of the public service that the esti-
would proceed with the improved mode of managing con- mates h d met with the general acquiescence of the house.
victs, which bad led to so great an increase of expenditure; (Renewed laughter.) And speaking now seriously on the sub-
and, judging from the debates which had lately taken place, ject, that they were satisfied that those who were the mos
he tied no doubt that they would persevere in that source of competent judges and had bestowed attention to the subject,
expenditure. (Hear, hear.) With regard to public build- the Government had done as much as they possibly could do
litre, they all knew that there were three or four which in the course of the year that had elapsed sines the war in
were most urgently required at this very moment; we reducing the charges of the public service. (Hear, hear.)
wanted a new Foreign-office, a new Colonial-office, and a Mr. HENLEY said no doubt the Secretary of the Treasury
War-office, and he thought that they would be unanimously could take what course he pleased, but he did not see that
of opinion that those works had been too long delayed. It there was any analogy between the cases mentioned by the
would be seen, therefore, that all these increases of expen- noble lord, for the army and navy estimates consisted gene-
' diture related to matters which were peculiarly for the rally of one subject only, while the civil service estimates con-
consideration of the House of Commons, and he did not see slated of a vast variety of subjects, embracing consular este-
how they could well escape the dilemma of spending even blishments abroad, the Queen's Palaces at home, ponds in
more money in that direction than they had hitherto done. the Green-park, and a multitude of topics. He should be
Having thus gone through-the increased expenditure, for very sorry to see the estimates referred to a committee, be-
which the house was more particularly responsible, cause he knew the result would be to increase the expenses
would now refer briefly to the Government departments ho
of 50 per cent.
the country, where, if any Prodigal spirit existed in the Sir J. SHELLEY wished to inquire in reference to the
Administration, there would bs likely to be found some in• buildings in Hampton Court appropriated to the stud. He
did not think it was right to call upon the country to main-
crease of expenditure. The committee must be aware that
there had been a very large increase of business within the rain that establishment ?
last few years in all the public departments. There never Sir B. HALL said the sum voted last year for the royal
palaces was 41,81-IV., and this year it was ;:9,6901. As to the
had been a period in the history of the country when there
Hampton Court Palace expenses alluded to by the hon, mem-
' bad been so rapid a development of its tra -le, its inter-
Hampton
for Westminster (Sir J. Shelley), none of the items course, and of everything which marked the material pro.
charged had any rate once to the reeling stock, but was en-
thegross of a nation as had taken place in this country within
tirely for the stud of her Majesty's use In answer to the
last few years. If he took the exports and imports as
affording a broad and tolerably accurate indication of this question of the gallant colonel (Colonel Sykes), who said that
fact, he found that the exports had increased from 4,901/, had been granted for furniture for the Secretary of
78,076,8541. in 1853 to 115,890,8571. in 1856; that the im- War, he had to say that that amount was the sum granted
ports had increased from 104,345,409/. in 1852 to last year. As to the 6,218 a for Hampton Court Palace,
t 72,651,8231. in 1856, while shipping had increased in the there htd certainly been an increase of 7831., arising from the
same proportion, (Hear, hear.) We had established steam employment of police instead of sentries, and from the repairs
communication with all parts of the world, and we had now of the chapels. It was never intended that a charge was to
a monthly steam communication with Australia, carrying bo,made for admission to the Hampton-court gardens, and all
the mails in about 50 days between Sydney and London. that was intended was, that if gentlemen wished to have keys
We had telegraphs established, or being established, con- to pass through the private park, they might have them on
fleeting all parts of Europe, and arrangements were in pro-
payment of I's. a-year.
grass for connecting the whole of our Mediterranean pos.
Mr WILSON said that the increase in the expenditure on
sessions with London by telegraph. The terms were being public buildings in 1856, as compared with 1852, was 21,010/.,
arranged by which we should be enabled to communicate the chi f items being not far palaces but for public euildings
almost with the rapidity of thought with Malta and and public offices in England, and the erection of a building
Corfu. The telegraph was being laid also between the in Edinburgh for the Scotch Poor-law Board,
west coast of Ireland and Newfoundland, the service being Mr. ROEBUCK said that if any knowledge could have been
already complete between Newfoundland and North Arne_ acquired on the subject of the navy estimates it ought to have
rice, and being disseminated over the whole of the United been obtained by. the hon, member for Northamptonshire
States and Canada. (Hear.) All these matters had led to (Mr. Stafford), who had taunted other members with igno
rance and want of industry. But ho bad not acquired any
an enormous increase of labour in the different Government
offices. He found that in the Board of Trade there were—
knowledge on the subject. He had designated the navy esti-
mates as extravagant, but there should not have been anyone
In 1852 papers received
In 18',6 (to Nov. 21)
In 1852, papers despatched 14,835 ought to be the last man to sneer and then to propose no re-
In 1856 (to Nov. 20)
showing an increase of work of 178 per cent. In the Fo- two cocks on a dunghill, and might very appropriately have
reign-office there were— been pitted against each other on the floor of the house.
In 1852, papers received and sent 32043 (Laughter.) The hon. and learned gentleman proceeded to
In 1856 . 57,914 discuss the propriety of the course which had been adopted
by the Secretary of the Treasury in making his statement in
committee instead of with the Speaker in the chair, coming
to 'the conclusion that the course adopted was an erroneous

•ne.

Mr. STAFFORD said that while in office ho had learned
more things than the navy estimates, one of which was to
take in good temper the bitterest attacks that could be made
upon him. It was true that he had offered no opposition to
her Majesty's Government on the navy estimates, but then it
must be remembered that on the host ngs he had made no
professions of retrenchmeat and reform, for he belonged to
that class of ecaentry members who were generally supposed
to be in favour of prodigal establishments. (Hear, hear; and
laughter.)
After some remarks from Mr. MOWBRAY,
Mr. WILSON said that the sum of 140,0001. was for the
purchase of Burlington House, ori,inaily intended for Govern-
ment offices, bat the idea had been abandoned, and instead
it was applied to the locating of the learned societies that
were obliged to leave Somerset House, in consequence of the
Increase of business there, arising from the succession and
other new duties. The sum of 4,7051., also charged to Bur-
lington-house, was for repairs and alterations necessary for
giving the required accommodation to the above societies.
After some observations from Colonel P. HERBERT and Mr.
Gum,
Colonel SYKES pressed for an answer from the right hon.
baronet the Chief Commissioner of Works to the question he
had put to him. (Hear, hear.)
Sir W. HALL said with reference to the comparison of the
expenses of royal palaces in 1852 and 1857, and said that in
1852 the sum was 45,4271., and in 1857 39,693/. being a diffe-
rence of between 2,0001. and 3,0001. The next question,
wi It reference to 7,9501., was for public offices, and snowed a
diminution from that of last year of 2,0001. ; and the third
question was by whose authority 1/. or a guinea was charged
to persons for th privilege of walking through Hampton
Court-park. The right hon. baronet said that as the park,
being private property, and the roadway only used for the
convenience of the neighbourhood, the Government had
thought it right to compel persons requiring keys to pay
for them, the same as was done with reference to other royal
parks and 'gardens.
Mr. W. EWART called attention to the desirability of the
Government labelling the paintings of works of art and curi-
osity at Hampton Court Palace, the same as that adopted at
the National Gallery and British Museum, 4:e.
Sir B HALL said it was his intention to do so after the
articles had been re-classified. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIMIS proposed that the charges for royal
palaces and public buildings should be reduced one-half, viz.,
to 17,8541., which would reduce the gross amoanteto be
voted to 118 3121.
A lengthened discussion took place relative to the effect of
the amendment if carried. Hon. members not belonging to
the Government contending that if it were carried they
would be prevented from reducing the sum again if it.-should
be thought expedient. (Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK then put the question to the chairman
whether, if the committee reduced this vote by 4,5001. it
was competent for the committed to still further reduce it.
(Hear, hear.)
Thw CHAIRMAN said it was not. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in
such cases it was the practice to propose the reduction of
the larger sum first till they arrived at the lowest sum.
Mr. RICARDO said that the difficulty arose from the
fact that they had pat together several items to get at a
single vote. After the decision which the chairman had
given, the only way was to move that he report progress
and ask leave to sit again, so that the estimates might be
amended.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the difficulty was none at
all. It was necessary that the estimates should be given in
detail, but the votes cannot be taken in detail. Any hon.
member objecting to any item moved that the vote be re
duced by that sum, which was well understood to mean that
that item was negatived. All knew what w4s meant.
Sir D. NORREYS recommended the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to take the opinion of the house on the single
item.

Mr. WILSON referred to what occurred last year when
that hon. member wanted to reduce the estimates by so many
sums, The amendment for the smaller reduction was put
first, and if that was carried, the motion was made that the
estimates sh .uld be still furth r reduced. This happened
several times ovary year, and the chairman pu, the smal est
sum to which The vote was reduced for the appr :val of the
house. ' No good could ari e from r eporting progress. They
could not propose 70 or 80 votes on this single statement.
Mr. HENLEY thought the statement open to objection.
Mr. FITZRCit said; supposing the reductions propoSed by
different persons—:Of 20,000/. 10,0001., and 5,000/:, the
course would be to put the r (faction of 5,0001., then that of
10,000/., then that' of 20,000/.
Colonel SYKES said that it was impassible to arrive at a
conclusion under the present rules. He objected to five items,
yet, if one of his objections was negatived, it would be im
possible to move another, whatever his objections might be.
Mr. DISRAELI
.said that if one motion f r reduction were
decided against thelon. member, he could still make another
motion. He diet not think the form of the house was much
to blaine. _Daring along experience he had never anoWn the
tame difficulty. It. was true that to-night the number of
items wlti,tuueh indieised ; ,and the consequlnce was, :that a

-furth-er analysis of the vote should be- made, -and the hoot
should come to a decision on a large number of votes. It was
a necessary consequence of imparting to the house so much
information. The best course the Government could do wou'd
be to accede to the motion, and reconstruct the estimates.
He saw no other way out of the difficulty. Their form had
been founded on experience, and had beenrecently submitted
to t'le consideration of experienced men, and they should not,
in the first difficulty, throw over forms which had, as it were,
been embalmed for centuries.
Sir B. HALL proposed to withdraw the vote, and go on to
the next :and at the end bring up the same vote in three
diviSions. 171
The motion for re:iorting progress of the first amendment
to the vote was withdrawn. The original motion was then
• withdrawn.
The next vole was for 75,7811. for putting the parks rnd
royal gardens in order. -
Mr. DILLWYN moved that the. Vote be reduced by
8,0691., all the sum set down for Battersea Park.
Sir B. HALL said that, when the house voted these esti-
mates last year, he was urged to complete Battersea-park—:
and they had their permission to'open the park in August et
this year, and he was happy to say that the park was open/
and their vote was for the completion of the public works.
Sir J. TROLLOPE said that the right
.hon. baronet bed
promised, during the late discussion, to withdraw the vote
of 11,6001. to St. James's-park, and yet this was included in
the present estimate.
Sir B. I4ALL said that he now proposed to reduce the
vate by the sum of 11,6001, which was proposed for the
Name park.
Sir F. BARING objected to the confusion which W'
produced in the vot. a fir the parks by mixing up the
expstidi.nre of past years with the present.
Mr. BENTINCK said that he did cot quite understand,
if the right h,mountb'e baronet intended t.) withdraw the
i vote for 11,6001. for St. James's Park. If so, he should
reduce 303/. further for, filling the pond. He begged t°
move an amei dment to that effect.
Mr. BLACKBURN said that they had got into ettch,
confusion that they could go on no further. Ho move('
that the chairman report progress.
Sir D. NORREYS thought that they should decide the
question respecting Battersea Park in the first instance, ss
the point was first raised.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, under the
circumstances, said he was prepared to accede. to the
motion.

The house then resumed.
THE OATH BILL.
Sir F. TFIESIGER asks I the noble lord when he ill'
tended to introduce the Oath Bill ?

Lord PALMERSTON—The first thing on Monda9•
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT•
This bill was read a tbi'd time and passed.
SOUND DUES.

On the motion for going iTito:Tcomm—ittee on this bill, ,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS rose to move that it be committed
that day six mouths. He had calculated that these duel
amounted to about 11/. 10s. on the average on'each care,
from the Baltic. How then could the consumer o,'
articles from the Baltic, as had been alleged, be benefited
by the remission of these dues. The whole benefit woujn
go into the pockets of the traders to the Baltic.
concluded by moving that the bill be committed that dal
six months.
Mr: WHITE seconded the motion. The Baltic mg'
chants ought not to have this concession at the expense
of the Briti.h public. t
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no new argument had been submitted in opposition t°
this measure. The object of the bill was to carry out thee
treaty which had been entered—into with the Sing °I
Denmark in conjunction with- Yranoe, Russia, Austria'
and other powers.
Mr. WYLD hoped that provision had been made in the
treaty requiring the Danish Government to keep up tb°
lighthouses in the Bal ic.
The CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was very fu;l provision.
After a few words from Mr. AYRTON, the:an:oli
meat was negatived without a division, and the but,
passed through committee, and was ordered to be read
third time on Monday.
The other orders were dispoeed of, and the house al"
journed at twenty minutes to one.