The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-08 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were Pmsented praying that affirmation
may, in certain cases, be substituted for oaths in law courts;
for and against the repeal of the paper duty, against
the abolition of the church rates, in favour of legis-
lation on the subject of the salmon fisheries, against
the Parochial Assessment Bill ; in favour of the training of
schoolmasters for middle-class schools ; from the inhabi-
tants of the town of Aberdeen against the bill before the
house relative to the subject of fishery: &c.
THE PAPER DUTY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
give notice that instead of including the paper duty in the
financial bill, ha would, in order to be more regular, move
the repeal of that duty in a preliminary resolution to-
morro win committee of ways and means, and thus it would F 0 compressed in the financial bill.

ARMY AMALGAMATION (INDIA).
In reply to Mr. H. SEYMOUR,
Sir C. WOOD said he .was. expecting despatches from
India by the next mail relative .inthe progress of army
amalgamation in India.
ASCENSION THURSDAY.

Mr. S. ESTCOURT asked the noble lord at the head of
the Government whether he intended to bring on the usual
motion for committees of the house not meeting till two
o'clock on Thursday next, being Ascension-day P
Lord PALMERSTON answered in the affirmative, and
moved a resolution to that effect.
The motion was then agreed to.
THE FORTS AT SPITHEAD.
Sir M. PETO
asked the Secretary of State for War if the
Government intended to procee'
stead of Spithead ? d with the forts in the road-
Mr. BARING said that the works in
proceeded with, and the papers question would be
moved for by the hon.
tly on the tittle.
baronet last week would be I,.id shor

• RAILWAYS IN INDIA.
•
"Sir XL PETO asked the Secretary of State for India
what steps the a svernment intended to take consequent on
despatch from India, ativ.4 the 22d Februarylast, in wratehr
it was stated that " a state of Llri.e.q possible, or
probable, in which, in the event of &nab •-m- being sup_
plied from home, in anticipation, to carry on the rau...,„.„
works, the Government of India would have no alternative
but to order their abrupt and complete suspension?"
Sir C. WOOD said that the apprehensions entertained
relative to this subject were totally unfounded. He had not
the slightest intention to allow the railway works in r.ndia
to be stopped. They had been carried on fully last year,
and there had been expended on them that year £8,300,000
Mr. H. SEYMOUR inquired if the right hon. gentle-.
man (Sir C. Wood) proposed to carry out the railway to
the cotton districts in India.
Sir C. WOOD said that such was his intention.
BELLIGERENT RIGHTS,
Mr. WALPOLE expressed a wish that his hen. friend
the member for Liverpool would postpone the following
motion, which he had on► the paper:, "That, in the opi-
nion
of this house, the subject of belligerent rights at sea
is at present in an unsatisfactory state, and deserving of
the serious attention of her Majesty's Government
lio considered that after what had bean stated by the GO.

vernment it would not be advisable to bring forward this
question at present.
Lord PALMERSTON said he entirely concurred with
the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole) in the view he
had taken of the inexpediency of discussing this question
at the present moment. The house would bear in mind
what the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs stated
last night, namely, that the question involved in this mo-
tion was one of a very grave and complicated character,
and that it was under the consideration of the Government,
and therefore they could not enter on it at the present time.
If the motion was persevered in, it would be impossible to
make any other reply than that the Government could not
afford any information on the subject.
Mr. HORgFALL said that, agreeing entirely in what
had fallen from the right hon. gentleman and the noble
lord, he would postpone his motion to a future occasion.
BARON DE BODE.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL appealed to his hon.
friend (Mr. Denman) to postpone his motion, which
was on the paper,
for a select committee to consi-
der the matters alleged in the petition of Baron de
Bode. It would be necessary for him to prepare himself for
the consideration of the subject.
Mr. DENMAN said that he was very reluctant
to postpone this motion. He considered this sub-
ject could be best considered in a select com-
mittee instead of in a full House of Commons.
He agreed, however, on the personal grounds stated by his
hon. and learned friend, for he admitted that it was neces•
sary that that hon. and learned member should be in a
position to watch carefully anything that he (Mr. Denman)
said on the subject. He would, therefore, consent to the
postponement of the motion. (Hear, hear.)
lONIAN ISLANDS.

Mr. MAGUIRE moved an address for copy of papers
and correspondence relative to the mission of the Right
Hon. W. E. Gladstone to the lonian Islands, as Lord High
Commissioner Extraordinary, in Nov., 1858. The learned
member entered into different details relative to the present
political position of the lonian Islands, and con-
demned the conduct pursued by this country towards
these islands. He asserted that the result of
our policy, instead of attaching the people of
these islands to British rule had quite the opposite effect.
He cited different authorities to show that the inhabitants
of these islands were desirous of being annexed to Greece.
He did not believe that the Government of the day had
done anything wrong in sending Mr. Gladstone, as Lord
High Commissioner, to these islands to institute an inquiry
into the state of those islands, and to report thereupon.
What he wanted to know was the character of that inquiry,
the manner in which it had been conducted, the report that
was made, and the recommendations which that report
contained. The right hon. gentleman was hailed with en-
thusiasm by the islanders of all classes. He now
asked, was not the desire for nationality universal
amongst the community ? That statement had been denied,
and it had been asserted that that feeling was not general ;
but he referred to the manifestations which had emanated
from the different islands in support of what he
alleged as to the strong feeling that prevailed for the re-
covery of national independence. The hon. member next
adverted to some of the replies of Mr. Gladstone to certain
addresses from the inhabitants of those islands, in which he
rebuked them for their desire for nationality. The right
hon. gentleman objected to the form in which they expressed
that desire, and they then addressed a most respectful
memorial to her Majesty setting forth their wishes. He
also alluded to a speech attributed to Mr. Gladstone in
the public journals.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied
that he had made the speech in question.
Mr. MAG ORE said that was an additional reason why
the house should be placed in possession of what had really
taken place.
Mr. CONINGHAM seconded the motion.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that on grounds which were per-
sonal to himself, and with tke approval of his colleagues, he
should beg to be excused from voting on the motion if the
hon. gentleman went to a division—(Mr. Maguire : Most
certainly.) But he was desirous to commence what he had
to say by explaining to the hon. member that he thought
he was under some degree of misapprehension with respect to
the intention of the Government. It was not their intention
to accede to the motion, but the grounds upon which they
declined were not so extensive as the hon. gentleman sup-
posed. It was by no means because they regarded it as
within their view of their duty to withhold all information
on the subject. The information in point of fact which the
hon. gentleman required, divided itself into two classes.
There was a series of papers termed reports, which it was
his (Mr. Gladstone's) duty to send home from the lonian
Islands, and which bore immediately upon the constitutional
question. Those were documents which ran over a great
deal of history, and contained much free comment and detail
upon men and things. Some part of them were of a nature
which would probably make it inconvenient at any period to
produce them. The greater part might, perhaps, be pro-
duced, but on account of those containing comments of that
nature, and on account of the opinions entertained by those
who were now responsible for the peace and order and go-
VOTZtmeni. of +lto iclando, ho thought it n.,t cleanable at the
present period that the reports should be laid before the
house. But it did not in the slightest degree follow that it
was necessary to withhold from Parliament all information.
For example, the hon. gentleman thought that this corres-
pondence must contain evidence with regard to the state
of feeling in the islands, and he likewise observed, with
great truth, that proposals of much importance were made
by him (Mr. Gladstone), in the name of her Majesty's
Government, to the lonian Assembly, and that Parliament
was entitled to be informed of that proposal. As to the cor-
respondence, his hon. friend the Under Secretary for the
Colonies would shortly tell the house that he was perfectly
prepared—only exercising a discretion in regard to any par-
ticular part where reservation might be required—to pro-
duce the correspondence, and give all the evidence in his
power to supply in regard to the state of feeling in the
islands. As to the proposals which were made in the name
of her Majesty to the lonian Assembly, the hon. member,
great as bad been the trouble and pains which he had taken
to acquaint himself with the history and details of the sub-
ject, had been so unfortunate as to miss one great and im-
portant piece of information which appeared to him (the
right hon. gentleman) to be the most vital and material of
all. Because both the proposals which were made to the
lonian Assembly and a very full address delivered to that
assembly in the name of the British Government by him-
self, and containing the whole sum and substance of the re-
ports, that was as to the recommendations which they con-
tained, not only might be produced, but were published in
every journal at the moment when they were made known
to the assembly, and unless his memory deceived him, they
were the subject of free comment in the other House of Par-
liament. He thought the substance of the information for
which the hon. member was desirous, except the reports,
could be, and would be laid before the house. (Hear.) The
hon. gentleman had entered into many matters of interest
and importance. He agreed with him that we were not to
suppose—because the population of the Seven Islands occu-
pied but a very small space in the public eye, therefore we
could afford to deal lightly with their concerns. The cha-
racter and reputation of England must be dear to all alike,
in great matters and small, and small as were the islands
themselves and the immediate interests connected with
them, yet from a variety of circumstances a very consider-
able portion of hist ,rival interest attached to them and their
concerns. And undoubtedly their affairs were from time to
time under the eyes of the people of Europe in a much
greater degree than might be supposed from a mere descrip-
tion of their position and importance. (Hear.) The hon.
gentleman said that a protest was published in answer to
the despatch of Sir J. Young signed by 10 of the principal
men of Corfu, and that that protest was the origin of the
mission to which he had referred. There was, however,
one conclusive reason why that should not have been the
case, and that was that the protest was not published, nor
the despatch upon which the protest was grounded, until he
(Mr. Gladstone) had left for the lonian Islands. " Post hoc
ergo propter hoc" was not always the best argument, but
certainly " ante hoc ergo propter hoc" would be a good deal
weaker still. (Laughter.) He referred to this, in point of
fact, because it would, he believed, have been absurd for
the hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire to have pro-
jected, or himself (the right hon. gentleman) to have un-
dertaken that mission after the feeling of the people of the
islands had been vehemently excited On the subject of
oandunion with Greece by the publication of the despatch
was protest. But it took place not only after the mission
nor
hdiimd he repent Having arranged, but after he was far on his way to Corfu.
undertaken that mission, he could not easily with-
draw;t
he member for erlepesent of anything which hail the effect
of placing
simply rendering that testimony relationship with the hon. baronet
Hertfordshire, of whom he was bound to say,
him to do, that even the brilliancyiinony which experience enabled
(the Chancellor of the Rache ,of his genius was in his
less conspicu-
(chsersdn)esAs of his character
conspicu-
ous than the thorough high-mindedness opinion,
narthfrom and conduct as a public man.
theplea-
sure which he had in dealing with the hoe:
course,anet
when
the
representative of the Government—dud,
spoke of him he meant to make no invidious distiwtionnbhee-
be-
tween Sir E. Bulwer Lytton and the Government which
concurred in his proceedings—there was another and main
reason which appeared to him all important in such a matter.
He confessed it was not his opinion, viewing the state of the
institutions and government of the lonian Islands antece-
dently to this period—it was not his opinion that the position
of that country was altogether clear and satisfactory. Hewes
n" '""enine in the hope that in the state of those islands it
would be practicable to a. ~hat might be desired, but he
was sanguine in the hope and expectation that, with the
support of the right hon. baronet and the Government then
in power, it would be practicable thoroughly to set right
the character of England by offering to the people of
h
islands institutions founded on those p
of freedom
to sees
which were so inexpressibly dear
was the object with which he
v d to undertake
mission, and with what effect they might
be able in time to
judge. The hon. member seemed to think that blame was
due to the late or to the present Goverment for not pro-
ducing those papers, because papers of a similar character
had been produced in the case of Lord Durham, who went
out to Canada. But the case of Canada was quite different,
for Lord Durham did not go out to Canada to eonsult a
people possessed of free institutions, but to consider the
case of a country where all institutions had been brought to
a stand-still by positive rebellion, The work of reconstruct-

tion in Canada remained with the Parliament of this coun-
try, and therefore it was necessary that Lord Durham should
supply them with the means of forming a judgment. The
act of union was the result of that operation. But here, on
the other hand, the result of the mission, whatever it might
have been, was to be effected in the islands themselves. It
consisted of certain propositions made to the local authori-
ties, and as these were declined on the spot, and there was no
occasion for a reference to the Parliament of England or for
raising an issue in this country, the analogy of Lord Dur-
ham's case did not hold good in the present one. The hon.
member spoke thatnight so strongly as the enthusiastic and
almost ungovernable advocate of nationalities and freedom
f —(laughter)—that he hardlyknew whether he was the same
member he had lately heard on the subject of Italian freedom
and nationality. There was no thermometrical point from
zero to boiling heat that could give the amount of difference
between the hon. member boiling and over-boiling to -night
as the advocate of nationality, and that representative of
liberal sentiments who occasionally addressed the house on
Italian affairs, and supported the Papal and other, as they
considered them, bad governments of Italy. (Hear.) The
hon. gentleman might say that this was an " argumentum
ad hominem," and that any inconsistency on his part was
no justification for inconsistency on the part of a Govern-
ment. He admitted that that would be true if there were
inconsistency on the part of the Government, and to that
point he should now address himself. The hon. gentleman
said that great popular excitement pervaded the islands,
and that it threatened the public tranquillity. He had no
information as to the present feeling in the islands, but as
far as he had seen when in these islands, it was not possible
to convey a more gross and entire misrepresentation.
(Hear.) He did not hesitate to say that the sentiment of
these populations was one of general contentment. (Hear,
hear.) At the same time he would frankly state what he
believed to be the fact with regard to their desire for the
realisation of their nationality. Prince Metternich had said
of Italy that it was a geographical expression, meaning that
it could not be a political one. On the contrary, the lonian
Islands were mere fragments scattered along the coasts of
Greece, and were brought together into political union by
circumstances entirely exceptional. Under these circum-
stances they did entertain a strong sentiment of nationality,
and desired the day when the Geeek race might be again
united. (Hear, hear.) It grieved him to the last degree
when he saw that sentiment on the part of those long un-
happy and often oppressed people treated with ridicule and
scorn by persons in this country. (Hear, hear.) For centu-
ries, in the most unhappy circumstances, theseeople were
subject, in one form or other, to foreign domination, and
he did not think that, their retaining the memory of the
glorious origin from which they were sprung—that free
sentiment which was the great sign of national, political, and
even moral life, and the best hope and pledge of their future
destiny—should be made the butt for wanton, cruel, and he
must say dastardly ridicule. (Cheers.) That was not the
tone, at all events, in which he should speak of that senti-
ment which he admitted existed amongst all ranks and
classes, but in a different form. It was entertained by the
people not as a sentiment which made them miserable, but
as one of hope which they should be glad to see realised
when the proper occasion offered. It was traded upon ac-
cordingly by the worst and most corrupt part of the popu.
lation. But these were not the masses of the people, who, he
must say, appeared to him to be an amiable and good people,
singularly refined and courteous, not difficult to govern, any
thing but estranged in sentiment from the English Throne
and nation, but, on the contrary, entertaining warm feelings
of respect, regard, and even gratitude towards this country.
(Hear.) It was a mistake to suppose that they would pre-
fer union with Russia or France. He believed they would
prefer to be connected with England rather than with
Russia, notwithstanding their unity of religion, or any fo-
reign country whatsoever. But demagogues—and he must
say that amongst the worst of those demagogues were num-
bers of those who professed a particular feeling of friend-
ship to England—took advantage of this sentiment, and
used it as a means pf producing excitement for their own
selfish purposes. Amongst the upper classes were a number
of gentlemen of great respectability and high character.
While on the one hand he must admit that he never met
any one of this class who did not say he hoped they might
be reunited to the stock from which they sprang (hear,
hear)—he must on the other hand say,,he had never met one
who said that the period had not yet come for realising that
object. Prudence taught them that there were practical
objections of an insurmountable kind to the union with
Greece, and those gentlemen deprecated in the highest de-
gree all those precipitate measures which, under the influ-
ence of popular zeal and excitement, were fomented for sel-
fish purposes by selfish individuals. (Hear, hear.) Such
he believed to be a true representation of the sentiment of
Hellenic nationality. With regard to the character of these
people, it was distinguished, especially in the upper classes,
by one fault—a fault that was frequently found in countries
long oppressed, and in a subordinate position—the fault of
moral cowardice. The consequence was that it was difficult
to obtain a free and honest expression of opinion in these
islands, and of course it became more difficult to obtain such
an expression in proportion as the public feeling was ex-
cited. It was quite true, as the hon. member said, that the
Archbishop and clergy of Corfu expressed e desire to him
when he landed there in January, 1859, to be united to
Greece, but the despatch which led to the excitement was
published in the month of November, and the pressure of
the public feeling was so used by the politicians that they
were left no choice in the matter. (Hear.) He did not
know how many members of that house belonged to that
important body, the Anti •State Church Association, but if
these gentlemen transported themselves to those islands
they weuld find the most perfect religous equality prevail-
ing there. He believed that there was not so pure an ex-
ample of a voluntary church to be found on the earth as
existed in these islands. Ireland furnished by no means so
pure an example of a church supported by voluntary,con-
tributions. There were no endowments whatever. The
priests were selected for the parishes without the interven-
tion of the bishop, by the vet s of certain lay bodies at-
tached to each church, who were frequently very nume-
rous. In the few instances where there were endowments
there- was also patronage, but these were exceptional cases.
These priests, with few exceptions, were men of small
attainments in point of education, but they were intensely
identified with the people in feeling ; and when the popular
sentiment led in the direction of nationality, it was for them
to follow—for folluw they must, sooner or later. He had
made no such speech as that to which the hon. member re-
ferred, and what he quoted was probably some unauthorised
gatherings of private conversations. But as regarded what
was stated about Thessaly, Albania, and Candia, he adopted
the sentiments advanced, as far as he could gather them
from what the hon. member quoted. The hon. member
made an attack on his noble friend, and called upon him to
apply to the lonian Islands the sentiments and policy he
adopted towards Italy. It was not for him to enter upon a
defence of his noble friend, especially, as had been stated by
the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli), as the
policy of his noble friend had never been challenged in that
house. (Hear.) But he would venture to offer a defence
—where none was needed—and show why England, with
out any selfish feeling on her part, ought not to follow the
suggestions of the hon. member. He would admit that they
must be prepared to apply in their own case the same prin-
ciples which they urged for the adoption of others. But the
application must be varied—not indeed by the consideration
of selfish and separate interests, but by considerations of pru-
dence and policy in connexion with European and general
interests. The question was, What was their duty with
regard t' the J onian Islands ? They found al tides in news-
papers stating that they were of no advantage to England.
Others might hold a different opinion, and the hon. gentle-
man asked, "If they are of no advantage, why not give them
up ?" Some persona were of opinion that the possession of
Corfu was of great advantage as a military position, and that
great public influence attached to the possession of the pro-
tectorate of these islands. For his own part, he was rather
disposed to agree with those who thought that England had
no selfish, separate, or peculiar interest whatever in the re-
' tention of these islands: It was entirely in his view a ques-
tion connected with her character and her duty, with the
exact and regular fulfilment of the obligations which she
contracted towards Europe, when, for the benefit of Europe,
she undertook that protectorate, because it was deemed to
be safest in her hands. Why not, said the hon. member,
appeal to the powers of Europe to release us from the obli-
gations we contracted ? But as a preliminary to that, it is
necessary to be convinced in their own minds that it was
for their benefit that they should be so released, and that
was the view of the question which the hon. member had
entirely overlooked. He seemed to think that the whole
question was disposed of when it was admitted that England
had no separate or selfish interest in the matter. The hon.
member quoted as a sentiment of his, that as long •as Thes-
saly, Albania, and Candia were in political relation with the
Turkish empire, it was a matter of serious risk to separate
the lonian Islands from the British protectorate. It appeared
to him that both on that ground, and for another still more
sulsstantial, there would be very serious risk in such separa-
tion. The hon. member said, " Unite them with free Greece."
In the first place, he had no evidence that free Greece
wished for the union. He believed the opinion in Greece
was very much divided on the subject, and that the laws,
usages, and condition of the inhabitants of the islands were
so different that public opinion was anything but unani-
mous as to the desirability of the union. At all events, no
prima facie case for the union had been made out. Then
had the hon. member considered the state and condition of
free Greece itself ? (Laughter.) He was not going to in-
dulge in any general invective against Greece, knowing the
great difficulties which Greece had to contend with in the
establishment of her freedom, and that it was associated
with one of the most illustrious names in the history of Eng-
land—the name of Mr. Canning—which was as much re-
vered in free Greece for the services he rendered to the race
as it was in England itself, the country of his birth. But
at the same timewiotyheornutzteoirinsogveirnetiognanofyGcrrieteicceis,
from
criticism of
the conduct of the G
all the information at s command, he did not believe
his
tl:at the political condition of free Greece was so consoli-
dated, that its laws and institutions were so matured, that
it was a state to hold itself up as a nucleus and rallying
point for the scattered members of the race. His belief was,
that under the present Government it was far better for
free Greece to look after her own concerns than to look
after the concerns of other people. (Rear.) He believed
it would be a crime against the safety and tranquillity of
Europe as connected with the great eastern question if Eng-
land were to do what the An member recommended, and