The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-23 00:00:00

neither be compulsorily enforced nor compulsorily ex-

eluded.
Lord NAAS auguredthe greatest good to Ireland from the
temperate spirit in which the subject was now treated by all
parties. As for the national syste.m, it had been productive of
great good ; but it had departed from its original plan, and
could no longer be counted as a nee onalsystem. The subjecti
had been deeply considered by the late Government, and if
they had remained in office they would have presented a
scheme for extending the sphere .of usefulness of the
system. He could not agree that the English system
should be transferred to Ireland, It was true that some-
' thing should be done, and he trusted that the.present Ad-
ministration would put an end to the present difficulties.
After some remarks by Mr. ESNONDE,
Mr. CARDWELL expressed his surprise that the
Queen's Colleges should be regarded as failures, when all
the difficulties of their origin and position were taken into
account. What they had done gave every reason for hope
and encouragement. It was idle merely to quote the num-
ber of graduates, they should consider the number of those
who received education without requiring a degree. Com-
paring the results of the new academies with those
of others, he saw no reason for dissatisfaction.
The cairn temper of the present debate was a
sufficient proof of their beneficent influence. He
further denied that the national system, even in the point
of view of being a mixed system, had failed. The practical
result had, in every way, been invaluable to Ireland. He
could not pledge the Government to any course on a mat-
ter of so much difficulty and delicacy, but he would give
it his most careful consideration, maintaining strictly the
principles under which the national system was founded.
SUPPLY—EDUCATION VOTE.

The house then went into a committee of supply.
Upon the vote of £930,000 for education,
Mr. LOWE said he would first refer to the amount
required for England, which in the vote was £836,000. In
the first place it was interesting to watch the increase of
this vote. The first vote taken under the minute of
Privy Council was in 1840, and amounted to £10,642.
It gradually advanced year by year. In, 1849 it
was £109,948 ; in 1852, £lBB,OOO ; in 1853, £250,000 ;
in 1854, £356,000; in 1855, £369,000 ; in 1856,
£423,000 ; in 1857, £559,000 ; in 1858, £658,000.
The vote asked for this year included various sums to make
up the deficiencies in past years. • In the year terminating
the 31st March, 1857, there was an excess of expenditure
over the estimate of £18,501; in the year terminating the
31st March, 1858, there was an excess of expenditure over
the estimate 0f112,409 ; and in the year terminating the
31st March, 1859, there was an excess of expenditure over

estimates of of £44,652, making a total excess of expend'
tare over estimates, for these three years of £75,566. It
must be remembered that the estimates in this, lepartment
stood in a totally different position from those in every
other department of the Government. They were not
properly estimates, they were conjectures. The Govern-
ment offered money to the whole kingdom upon certain
conditions, and any one who complied with these condi-
tions was entitled to receive the public money. (Hear,
hear.) It was not possible, therefore, for this department
accurately to estimate the demands which would be made
upon it. The result was that, deducting the sum of
£75,566 from the sum asked, there appeared to be
an increase in the vote of about £97,919, which was about
the general rate of annual increase. This arose mainlyfrom
the fact that the system has spread wider and wider—that
the demand for education has increased, and that the public
is availing itself of the facilities afforded by the Government
of improving its education. The item for building was the
only one that had not increased in the estimates for this
year. Having placed before the committee the result of the
estimates, he would now willingly leave them to be dealt
with by the committee, were it not usual for those occupy-
ing the position which he had the honour to hold to make
some statement upon the subject of education in this coun-
try. (Hear.) The house was aware that a commission was
I being held, presided over by the Duke of Newcastle, to con-
eider the subject of public education in this country. It
would be improper in him (Mr. Lowe) to trouble the com-
mittee with any speculations as to the best form of educa-
tion. He would merely place before them what appeared
to him to be the good features, and what the defects in the
present system of education. Any candid and impartial
person must admit that the system possessed many and great
advantages. In thefirst place, it had arisen naturally outof
the existing state of things without any disturbance of exist-
ing feelings and institutions. (Hear, hear.) It had sprung
up by availing itself of the machinery already existing in
those great voluntary religious bodies which occupied the
spiritual domains in this country. The system had shown
itself capable of extension according to its natural wants,
and there was no greater proof of its quality than this natu-
ral power of extension according. as necessity required.
They saw the result of the system in the number of schools
which it had created throughout the country; for although
those schools were to a great extent the result of private
bounty, yet the continuance of the fund at the disposal of
the Government had called forth acts of benevolence and
private liberality which otherwise might not have been
exhibited. The present system found popular education
in the most rude state, and had substituted for
it a good sound popular education, and wherever
it was introduced it was found to furnish a
standard education. By the machinery of pupil teachers it
had raised xp an intelligent body of instructors, the posses-
sion of which was of the utmost service to a country which
desired to advance civilisation. It had also stimulated the
energies of the teachers, by securing to them a minimum
salary, and giving them an augmentation of salary accord-
ing to the prosperity of their school. This induced them
not to remain content with their present positions, but led
them to aim at the accomplishment of something higher in
their profession. By the education of pupil teachers it had
also greatly improved the secondary as well as the primary
education of the classes to which these pupil teachers for
the most part belonged. These schools throughout the
country were able, through the medium of the Government,
to obtain their school-books at a reduction of 40 per cent.
from the publishing price, which was a matter of great im-
portance to them. The fund at the disposal of the Govern-
ment had been the means of augmenting the salaries of the
teachers, and this had contributed very materially to im-
prove their position. By the constant system of inspection
it had raised the standard of education throughout the
country, and had made the teachers feel that they must
not rest upon their oars, but must endeavour to improve
the character of their school. Every candid person must
admit that the advantages of the system were of no ordi-
nary importance, and they must all feel that if they were
to put at end to it now the good which they had accom-
plished was very great, and that the £3,700,000 which had
been spent upon these schools had not been misapplied.
(Hear.) Having pointed out what appeared to him to be
the advantages of the system, he would now refer to what
seemed to him to be the drawbacks of the system ; and he
must say that they did not at all appear to be the result
of the administration, but to be inherent in the system.
The first objection was that no aid was given by the Go-
vernment, except where a certain fund had been contributed
by voluntary efforts. The consequence was that in those
parts where schools were most required, but where the re-
sidents were too poor to contribute anything, no schools
were established. (Hear, hear.) Another evil was the neces-
sity of laying down strict rules, and making a great num-
ber of hard cases. But that evil was a necessity, as, unless
these rules were strictly adhered to, the demands would in-
crease so rapidly, that it would be impossible to comply
with them. Another evil attending the system was that it
created a great number of denominational differences. When
the system was first established, the trustees of schools were
very loose in framing their trust deeds; but when it was
found that the Government assisted thevoluntary systems of
different denominations, the result was that the deeds were
prepared with the greatest strictness, and the various sects
of religion were marked in the sharpest manner. He
thought it was to be regretted that the public money should
be employed in endowing schools which were founded upon
exclusive principles. (Hear.) He thought the suggestion of
the hon. and learned member for Belfast (sir H. Cairns)
upon another subject was worthy of consideration, viz.,
that the schools should be required to insert a conscience
clause, admitting to the school the children of Dissenters
who entertained conscientious objections to the religious
teaching of the school. There was another objection. The
various denominations of schools required that the inspec-
tors should be members of their denominations. Remem-
bering that there were eight or nine different denomina-
tions, a much larger number of inspectors was required than
would otherwise be sufficient. But for this he thought that
one-third of the number might be dispensed with. There
was also great perplexity in the manner in which the vari-
ous particulars connected with the schools were taken ac-
count of in the office. For instanoe, there were no less than
15,000 pupil teachers receiving diferent rates of salaries,
located in different schools, and an account of the position,
salary, and character of each of these had to be kept, and
every charm() made against them had to be registered. This
necessarily led to great complexity of accounts. He would
also mention another difficulty, and that was that the
practice of granting. public money to the managers of the
schools had in it a disadvantage arising from those gen-
tlemen not being an incorporated, but an exceedingly
uncertain
_and fluctuating, body. Although these were
serious drawbacks to the system, he did not state them with
a view of prejudicing the mind f the house in any way, but
as his humble tribute towards the formation of a full Judg-
ment upon the subject He would just go into the question
of what might be the dimensions of•this system. At the
present moment they had under instruction about 821,000
children, and the estimate for these was £761,000, or some-
thing like £1 per head for each child. At the same time there
were about 3,000,000 children who ought to be brought un-
der the agency of a system of public education. It was not
likely that number could be soon attained ; but he would
place before the committee the following conclusions as
being rather striking—that in order to educate the 3,000,000
children who might come under the control of the educa-
tional board, they would require an army of 200 inspectors,
18,000 schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, and 45,000 pupil
teachers, and other things in proportion. These were very
grave considerations ; and, of course, there were two views
to take of such a system as this—the one, to rejoice that
they were spending so much money in doing good ; and the
other, to regret that so much responsibility should be con •
tinually increasing, and that such a burden should be
thrown upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With re-
spect to the schools of art he might state that returns from
the scientific institutions, including schools of navigation,
showed the number of students to be 65,212, and that in
the art schools 79,473 persons were learning drawing, being
an increase of 83 per cent on those of 1857. These draw-
ing schools were gradually emancipating themselves from
the parent stock and succeeding alone, and so far it must be
allowed that that department was in a gratifying condi-
tion. He thanked the committee for the attention they
had paid him. He could only hope they might be enabled,
by union, caution, judgment, and liberality and mutual
concession on all sides, to arrive at some solution of the
question, which, while it gave no offence to the dif-
ferent creeds of religion in the country, would really
give the people of England a thoroughly good
education. to fit them for those stations in life in which
they might be placed. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAINES said he never had any other opinion but
that it was their duty to secure the universal education of
the people, and never to rest satisfied until they had at-
tained that end. At the same time, however, he felt some
serious alarm at the rapid progress of these educational es-
timates. Only a year or two ago the present Chancellor of
the Exchequer said that he did not scruple to view with
treat jealousy the constant growth of the educational vote;
and a man who might be considered higher in position in
regard to the question, namely, the Rev. Frederick Temple,
head master of Rugby, and late head of the inspectors under
the Committee of Council, had said that two-thirds of the
grant had not been spent in promoting education, but in
relieving others from the burden of doing so. The right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe) had drawn attention with
much candour to the amazing rapidity with which these
grants had increased, and the late Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had led the house to believe last year that possibly