The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-01 00:00:00

presented that Father Daly had made in regard to this sub-

ject were quite unauthorised.
CHINA.
Mr. DUNLOP, in moving a resolution on this subject,
said that there 'ass reason to believe that all the

papers relating to this subject had not been laid before the
house. The hon. gentleman entered at considerable length
into the subject, and contended that unless the Government
acted with the greatest discretion, and pursued the strictest
neutrality, there was. a danger of this country being in-

volved in another war with China.
Mr. BAXTER seconded the motion, and expressed his
conviction that the Government had not been acting with
neutrality. He read some correspondence in support of
this statement, from which it would appear that the British
and French commanders had openly favoured the imperialist
cause in China. He also cited passages from the work
published by Mr. Alcock. Everybody that paid attention
to the state of China must be aware that the Tartar dynasty
was on the wane, and yet it was that dynasty that this
country was endeavouring to sustain.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could have wished that his
hon. friend who had made this motion would have had the
goodness to wait till some of the papers had been laid on the
table. His hon. friend knew very well that he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) had said that when they received accounts from China
the papers would be laid on the table. They received some
papers some time ago, showing hovimatters were in progress;
but as they did not give complete information he thought
it better to wait, and he had this evening laid on the table

papers to the present date. This he imagined was interest-
ing to the house and the country, as showing the actual
state of affairs. The hon, gentleman who made this motion,
and the hon. gentleman who seconded it, might be i ight or
wrong as to what happened two years ago, when Lord Elgin
went up the Yangtze .Kiang, but that was not the question
before the house. The present was a totally different state
of affairs, and what was interesting was what was the case
now. Well, the case at present was that Lord Elgin, having
given directions that that part of the treaty which said that
the river Yangtze-Kiang should be open for trade, made a
provisional arrangement with Prince Kung for that pur-
pose, and Sir James Hope went up the river, and at Nankin
he made an arrangement with the chief of the Taepings.
[The noble lord read the agreement, which was to the effect
that British subjects were to be unmolested, both in their
persons and property; that British v ssels of war were to
be stationed at certain places mentioned, and their com-
manders would receive directions to interfere in no way
whatever, excepting for the purpose of protecting their
countrymen,if it were necessrry to do so.] The Commander-

in-Chief said that British arms would be used to protect
British persons and property, but there was to be no inter•
ference between the Taepings and the Imperialists. Tha
was what he called neutrality. That was the present state
of affairs. Now, with regard to what the hon. gentle-
man said as to what we were doing there. Very often
it was found that persons abroad, who did not know
exactly what the authorities were doing, wrote home
letters objecting to what was going on, and al-
moat always blaming those authorities of whose
acts they had not a thorough knowledge. But surely the
papers produced here on the authority of Sir James Hope
and others, ought to be a more correct narrative of facts
than that which was to be found in the correspondence to
which his hon. friend had alluded. His hon. friend said
that, whatever faults or crimes might be charged to the Tae-
pings, the imperialists were very much worse. That might
be so, but for his part he was much more critical than his
hon. friend. He did not say which was the worst or which
had committed the greatest excesses. He had never much
admired the civilisation, and still less the humanity, of the
Chinese, and he had no doubt that great excesses and out-
rages against humanity were committed both by the Tae-
pings and the imperialists, and which was the worst he,
being in a neutral position, could not say. Our object was
to promote our trade as much as possible, and to endeavour
both to act a neutral part and as far as we could to preserve
peace. The hon. gentleman who spoke last said it was en-
tirely the fault of the British Government and the British
agents that this civil war had not been long ago put an end
to. Now he must say he thought it would have required a
very large army in order to put an end to that civil war.
These Taepings were a very numerous body. They had got
possession of several very important cities and provinces.
In what way was it possible that we should interfere to
enable them to put down the Tartar dynasty, or to enable
the Tartar dynasty to suppress the insurrection ? He con-
ceived it was our duty not to do either the one thing or the
other. But here was what Sir Jas. Hope said—" Although
large bodies of rebels are stated to be, and probably are,
overrunning the country in different directions, it is very
open to question whether they are in sufficient strength to
overcome the Imperial Government; while, on the other
hand, no reasonable prospect exists of the Imperial Govern-
ment being able to suppress the rebels. Therefore it is
likely that the civil war will be of indefinite duration ; that
the commercial towns of the empire will be destroyed,
and the most industrious provinces laid waste." He be-
lieved that that was an exact account of the state of things,
and whatever might be said by those who were admirers of
the Taepings, or by those who admired the Tartar dynasty,
he considered that when there were large bodies of men
carrying on civil war, many of the worst vagabonds and
scoundrels in the country would join the one side or the
other, not for the sake of promoting either cause, but for
the sake of the plunder and devastation which they would
be enabled to carry on by taking up arms. That was a
great misfortune, but he did not think it was in the power
of the British Government, without being guilty of an in-
terference of which everybody would disapprove, to put an
end to it. He did not think that we could properly do other-
wise than we have done, viz., to preserve a neutral attitude,
Mr. DUNLOP—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—A neutral attitude, and that was
what was expressed in the article of the treaty, neither to
assist the imperialists against the rebels, nor the rebels
against the imperialists, but to protect British persons or
British property when they were endangered. That was
the course which we had pursued in other instances, and
he did not see why we should not pursue it with regard to
China. His hon. friend seemed to think that we ought to
make some arrangement by which, when a ship came to a
Chinese port in the possession of the imperialists, the duty
should be paid in such a manner as that it should not be
required to be paid again to the rebel forces. But that
would be a very strong interference on our part.
Mr. DUNLOP said a few words in explanation.
Lord J. RU S SELL proceeded to say that the instructions
given by her Majesty's Government had been in all cases to
preserve the neutral course which we had taken. Sir James
Hope had acted upon these instructions, and was endea-
vouring to promote trade with the districts that were in the
hands of the Taepings as well as with those that were in
possession of the imperialists. The accounts which the Go-
vernment received from China certainly betokened an im-
provement in our relations with both parties. He had that
morning read:a letter from Canton which stated that the
customs duties were regularly paid, and that in every diffi-
culty that arose the Chinese authorities showed a disposition
to remove all obstructions to our intercourse with the natives.
Mr. Bruce had arrived at Pekin. He had desired that there
should be no sert of ostentation in his reception; for he said
that he was merely going back to a place where he had been
before, and his entry had been quite private, but every civi
lity had been shown him by the authorities. He (the noble
lord) submitted that when neither the Tartar dynasty was
strong enough to put down the rebels, nor the rebels to over-
come the Tartar dynasty, it was no part of our duty to take
the one side or the other. (Hear.) He could assure his
hon. friend that the views of the Government were in fa-
vour of observing a strict neutrality. He would not say
that there might not be acts of subordinate authorities—
very well intended no doubt—which might be chargeable
with the showing a bias. Nevertheless, both the Govern-
ment at home and the British authorities in China would
endeavour to observe that strict neutrality which seemed to
him to be the proper one for us to pursue.
Mr. BUCHANAN saw no reason to think that the in-
demnity would be withheld ; but he would be a sanguine '
man that should venture to think the balance of payments
would be in favour of this country. We must keep up a
large force in China, and it was more probable that we
should heiveaviet.tolshenedqouuesttimononwey thastahnerthefaotrewe should
ahaveveryseriou s
one, how far our policy had tended to increase our difficul-
ties ? It appeared to him that we had entered into a treaty
with a Power which was utterly powerless. The great
mandarins were practically independent,andb maintainedd
little
people i
t connexionbtbyeiarannualwith
process
tribute,
etha lelecde,n central ahl
the
Governmentheheet
xhpeexpressive
essilvte exactede
languageo fromn
ing t
i?
the
vas certain
that part of the world, " squeezing."
that although competitive examinations had for
been in vogue, and although literary qualifiurica-
lions were supposed to be required of the man-
darins, all the great offices of the empire were regularly
put up for sale. Pekin had never till lately been fully
known to the western world, and it turned out on a closer
acquaintance to be a very great sham—powerful neither for
attack nor defence. The we tkness of the imperial Govern-
ment was shown in nothing so strikingly as in its utter
inability to put down the Taepings, who in the first instance
had been composed of nothing but ordinary bands of ma-
rauders. Subsequently they had adopted many things by
which they hoped to win popularity—such as the opinions
of the triad societies (whatever they might be), a form of
Christianity, though no doubt a very degraded one, and the
native or Ming dynasty, which had been dethroned by the
Tartars. If, however, the Government could have brought
against them troops as good as those who had opposed the
march of the allies on Pekin, they would at once have
scattered them to the winds, The imperialists with whom
we had made a treaty were the weakest of the parties in
China ; and the Taepings were certainly not chargeable
with that apathy and contempt of all foreigners which
marked the adherents of the Tartar dynasty. One most
obvious breach of neutrality was the undertaking into
which we had entered to collect the dues for the Tartar
dynasty; for what would the imperialists have thought if
we had made the same kind of treaty with the Tien-Wang
at Nankin which we had made with Prince Kung, and
had appointed supervisors of customs for him ? (Hear.)
The hon. member proceeded to comment on the custom-
house system in China, which he feared would promote
smuggling. China had in all ages been the home of the
smuggler, in consequence of the peculiar formation of coast,
which was completely indented and intersected with creeks
and small Joys, which offered the readiest means of retreat

-.......,...--
to the smuggler. The opium trade, so long a smuggling
traffic, had tended greatly to inoculate the Chinese people
with a taste for contraband. The English merchants were
chargeable with that traffic, but in other matters they were
as fair and honourable a class of men as any in the world.
There was one point in which the new customs system would
injuriously affect the British trader. The assessors were
joint, namely, English, American, and French, and the two
latter would have ample means of obtaining an insight into
all the secrete of our trades. He thought it was the height
of simplicity in our Government to consent to such an ar-
rangement. Another defect was that the British merchant
was to be deprived at all the Chinese ports of his natural
protector, the consul. Mr. Bruce had declared that the
consul was not to interfere with trade questions, which were
all to be referred to himself.

Mr. S. FITZGERALD said that a good deal had fallen
from the hon, gentleman who had just sat down with which
he entirely concurred, but he thought that to the rights and
the wrongs of the quarrel between the Emperor of China
and the rebels it was not expedient for us to pay much at-
tention. The complaint of the hon. gentleman, that the
British Government had not observed the strictestneutrality
between the contending parties was, he thought, most un-
founded. The hon. member said we were guilty of a breach
of neutrality in collecting the customs dues of the Chinese
Government. But he begged to state that we did nothing of
the kind ; the British. Government had nothing more to do
with the collection of the customs dues in China than it had
with the customs duties in France. At the present moment,
however, by the regulations of the British authorities in
China, an English vessel proceeding to one of the open ports
in the possession of the rebels was bound to go into one of
the ports in the possession of thelmperialGovernment, and
pay dues to them. Such a regulation as this placed the Bri-
tish merchant in a very unfair position, and it was quite
clear that sooner or later it must bring us into collision
either with the Chinese authorities or the rebels. If the
Chinese Government were in a position to compel us to go
into one of their ports before al e went to one of the ports of
the rebels we should not be in a condition to complain ; but
the fault he found was this, that it should be by a regula-
tion of our own Government in China that an English ves-
sel was compelled to go an imperial port before she pro-
ceeded to an open port in the possession of the rebels. He
also thought our position at Shanghae was a very peculiar
and dangerous one. It appeared the British troops ware kept
at Shanghae for the protection of the place against any at-
tack of the rebels.
Lord J. RUSSELL—It is for the protection of British
property.
Mr. S. FITZGERALD—WeII, it came to this that we
maintained a force there to protect British interests against
—whom 2 Against those who were in arms in opposition to
the Imperial Government. He hoped the attention of her
Majesty's Ministers would be directed to this subject, be-
cause everybody must agree in the absolute necessity of ob-
serving the strictest neutrality between the contending
parties. He trusted these facts would be attended to by the
noble lord, because the doctrine—and the true doctrine—
had been laid down that it was our duty to maintain the
strictest neutrality.
Lord PALMERSTON said he thought his hon. friend
who spoke last but one had not sufficiently listened to the
statement of his noble friend the Foreign Secretary, with
regard to the arrangements between our Admiral and the
Taepings for the observance of the strictest neutrality, be-
cause many of his observations applied to a very different
state of things. He really thought they might dismiss that
part of the subject, since what his noble friend had read
from the papers before the house must have satisfied them
we were observing the strictest neutrality between the con-
tending parties. Then, what had been stated by the hon.
gentleman opposite seemed to him utterly unanswerable
with regard to the policy we had hitherto pursued in that
country. As long as a sovereign reigned over a country,
and his authority was in force, especially in those parts
where we traded, we had no choice but to regulate otir inter-
course according to the imperial will. If we had said, be-
cause there was a rebellion in many of theprovinces of China,
and because the Emperor was not able to put it down, we
should leave British property and British subjects to the
mercy of the rebels, there would have been an outcry from
one end of this country to the other. The violation of the
treaty of Tien-tsin rendered it necessary to have recourse to
hostilities, and Lord Elgin, at a great sacrifice to his health,
went out, and eventually succeeded in negotiating another
treaty which gave full force and effect to all the securities
provided for our commerce which the first treaty had failed
to make. He thought it was totally unnecessary to enter
upon any justification of the government for having entered
into treaty arrangements with the existing Imperial Govern-
ment of China, or to maintain that having done so was no
breach of neutrality between the two contending parties.
Mr. BUCHANAN explained that his observations went
to show that he considered the imperial authorities the only
de facto government.
Lord PALMERSTON was glad to accept the admission
of the hon. gentleman. On the one hand they had proved
that their policy was to maintain the strictest and bona fide
neutrality, and it had been admitted, on the other hand,
that they were perfectly right in negotiating with the exist-
ing government. This disposed of a good many of the
observations made in the course of the present discussion.
But great fault had been found with the arrangement made
by which British subjects were employe( by the Chinese
Government in the collection of their customs. He thought
the objections were not well founded. In the first place,
those British subjects were not acting under the authority
of the British Government, but were lent to the Chinese
Government, and were responsible to the Chinese authori-
ties for their conduct. It had been complained that they
were not placed under the authority of our consuls, but he
did not see there was great fault to find in that respect. It
was thought best to place them immediately under the au-
thority of Mr. Bruce. Generally speaking no doubt it was
an unusual course that British subjects should be chosen to
collect the customs of the Chinese Government, but the fact
was that not only could no dependence be placed on native
officials, but we had a direct interest in seeing these customs
duties properly levied, because out of them was to be paid
the indemnity stipulated to be handed over to England by
the Chinese Government. It had been contended that the
present system tended to indirect smuggling. Certainly it
was a very ingenious mode of reasoning, that if there was
any one argument strong against you, the best course was
to affirm directly the contrary. That was the course of
logic which his hon. friend had adopted, because unless the
Government were exceedingly misinformed, the present sys-
tem had a direct tendency to check smuggling. (Hear.) It
was said the Chinese authorities had been accustomed to
receive bribes from the British merchants, and that if they
were deprived of those fees they would be compelled to resort
to other means to make up the deficiency. No doubt this
was a system which tended to establish a regular and legal
system of customs, but he could not believe that the fact cf
there being a regular system by which the legal dues. and
no other, were collected, should induce British merchants
to smuggle at other ports where no custom-houses were
established. His belief was that this system was a fair and
equitable arrangement—that it would be advantageous no
doubt to the Chinese Government, but also productive of
immediate benefit to us, inasmuch as it would secure to us
tke gradual payment of those indemnities which were stipu-
lated by the treaty of Pekin. With regard to the point
adverted to by the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. S.
Fitzgerald), that British vessels were compelled to go to
ports where duties were paid to the Imperial Government,
although they might be destined for ports in the possession
of the rebels, he (the noble lord) was not aware of any in-
formation on the subject, but certainly it was one worthy
of consideration and inquiry. With regard to Shanghae,
everybody knew that it was a most important settlement,
and that it had gradually superseded Canton as a great mart
of British commerce. It was also well known that towns
unfortunately occupied by the Taepings had not afterwards
presented the appearance of wealth and comfort which they
presented before such occupation, and undoubtedly the occu-
pation of Shanghae by the rebels was not a thing which the
English community at that place would very much desire.
He believed it was of great importance to keep a British
force at Shanghae, for the purpose of detecting British pro-
perty in that town from any attack by the rebels. It had
been urged that great advantages would arise from the
establishment of several free towns in different places on
Chinese territory. If we were masters of China we might
establish free towns in certain places, but the Chinese ter-
ritory belonged to the Emperor of China or to the rebels,
and certainly not to us, and therefore we had no power to
make any such arrangement. All they could do was to
avail themselves of the privileges which this treaty gave
them. They had no right to assume that the Chinese
Government had ceased to exist, so long as it continued to
govern a large and important part of the empire, and espe-
cially the seaport towns, in which our intercourse prevailed.
All her Majesty's Ministers could be expected to do was to
take care not to give either party cause to complain, so that
so far as hostilities were concerned we should preserve the
strictest neutrality. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITE thought that the regulation with regard to
hTiEnglishamceoptlihonnastevalte,
hssws.eyehl English
.so,nEwigfsleirsea saidh G persisted in, must lead us into some con-
test with one of the contending parties.
vastotvheer speech Government
ecy o f
lnt had
dfp
eotobhpseleer
vnobleeda
consistingploorl di
policy
the
ff
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had failed to satisfy
perfect neutrality. Our object ought to be to conciliate the
one hundred millions, with five millions of people,
men.
Mr. DUNLOP then, by leave of the house, withdrew his
motion.

ISLAND OF JERSEY.

Mr. S. ESTCOURT moved for copies of correspondence
with the authorities of the Isle of Jersey on the subject of
the report of the Royal Commission.
Sir G. C. LEWIS had no objection to produce the corre-
spondence referred to by the right hon. gentleman.
An HON. MEMBER moved that the house be counted.
There were not 30 members present when the motion was
made; but before the sand had run its course, there was a
considerable accession to the forces on the Treasury bench,
cnd the benches below the gangway on the Liberal side
having received a small reinforcenaeut, the requisite 40 were
present when the Speaker proceeded to count.
THE NAVIES OF ENGLAND AND FRANCE.
Sir J. P.AKINGTON—Sir, I now rise to call attention
to a subject the importance of which no one will deny. I
have received information with respect to the progress of
the French Government in building armour-covered alailv)
to which I think it my duty to call the attention vf the

house and of her Majesty's Government without any loss 1
of time. I bring this subject before the house with the ad-
vantage, not only of stating my facts on what I may call
high authority, but also of stating what that authority is.
(Hear.) Every one conversant with the state of the navy is
aware of the high reputation of Admiral Elliot. (Hear.) It
is only justice to him to say that there are few, if any, more
able officers in her Majesty's service. I have the advantage
of private friendship with him, and I am able to state that
during three weeks he visited all the French ports and
arsenals with the exception of Toulon. lie has given mo
permission to mention his name in connexion with the
statements which I am about to make to the house,
but with a feeling which is honourable to himself,
as he has lived on terms of friendship with many officers of
the French navy, he is anxious that he should not be under
the suspicion of having acted in any manner as a spy, or of
having done anything unworthy of his high character as a
British officer. (Hear, hear.) I should state that what-
ever information he has obtained was obtained in an open
manner, and he visited the French dockyards with the ad-
vantage of having received the permission of the Minister
of Marine. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Lindsay.) I understand
the motive of that cheer, and it is only due to the French
Government to state, on the part of the French Admiralty,
that there has been nothing like any intention to conceal its

preparations. But those preparations are of such a nature
that after the communication I received from Admiral
Elliott I could not delay calling the attention of the Go-
vernment to them for a single day. Admiral Elliott returned

yesterday morning to this country, and in a long conversa-
tion u ith him I heard the facts that I am about to submit
to the house. lam glad to see the hon. member for Sun-
derland in his place; in the early part of this session, on a
motion made by the hon. and gallant member for Ports-
mouth, the hon. member for Sunderland spoke strongly on
this subject. He stated to the house that he had had a
communication with the French Minister of Marine ; and
he gave his impression with regard to the progress France
was making in the completion of her navy ; but what I
particularly wish to call the attention of the house to is a
letter the hon. member told us he had received from M.
Chevalier. That gentleman throughout the late negotia-
tions with the hon. member for Rot hdale (Mr. Cobden)
was in frequent communications with him. I believe no one
has taken more pains than M. Chevalier to impress on this
country, and on those Englishmen with whom he has had
communication, that it is the desire of the French Govern-
ment to maintain pacific relations with this country, and
that it was making no unusual efforts to increase its naval
force. M. Chevalier wrote thus to the hon. member for
Sunderland :
' " You have a full statement of our navy—you have it in
a blue-book—you are told officially by the Government and
p ivately, in the most friendly and honest manner, by our
Minister, that of iron-cased vessels France has only one fit
for use, that in a short time we are to have a second, but
that a full year must elapse before we can get two more, and
two years before we shall be in possession of a fleet of six
iron-cased vessels ; and it is in the face of such a fact that
Englaml feels herself so dangerously menaced that she
spends millions without number to get rid of the peril of an
invader."

(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Lindsay.) The hon. gentleman
cheers, but before I sit down I think he will be obliged to
acknowledge one of two things—either that M. Chevalier
was throwing dust in his eyes, though I have no reason for
saying he did so—l know nothing that could justify the
imputation—or that M. Chevalier himself knew nothing of
the subject of which he was speaking. The noble lord, the
Secretary of the Admiralty, also spoke on that evening;
and, with perfect frankness, he said he had no desire to
disguise or conceal from the house the real state of affairs
with regard to the relative state of the navies of England
and of France. The noble lord stated what at the time was
strictly correct according to all the information he then pos-
sessed. He said that the French Admiralty had at that
time built, or was building, six iron-eased frigates; two were
large vessels of 52 guns ; there were four others, sister ships
of La Gloire. And, exclusive of the old floating batteries
of the Russian war, the French had built, or were building,
fiv e iron-cased gunboats, and four vessels of a formidable cha-
racter, called floating batteries ; altogether they had nine
iron covered gunboats or floating batteries, and six large
iron-cased frigates, of which La Gloire is one. The noble
lord added, what I think was a most important assurance, to
which I beg to call the attention of the noble lord at the
head of the Government. He told us,—
" That if they found much more progress made over the
water or among any other nations in building these ships, it
would be the bounden duty of the Government to come
down to the house and state frankly and fairly what was
going on, with a view, if necessary, to extend the number
of our iron-cased vessels."
This was an important statement on the part of the noble
lord, and the fact that it proceeded from his lips makes me
regret that the First Lord of the Admiralty is not in the
House of Commons. Though I accept any such statement
from the noble lord, and believe it was made in the utmost
good faith, and with the intention of fulfilling it, yet the
noble lord is not a member of the Cabinet, and it is not un-
just or disrespectful to him to say, that we cannot receive
promises on his part as of the same weight and importance
as if they proceeded from the First Lord of the Admiralty
himself. Since this promise was made, the state of things
contemplated by the noble lord has arisen ; the position of
the French navy with regard to iron-cased frigates is dif-
ferent now from what it was when that promise was made
hut the Government has not come down to Parliament and'
made the statement thus promised, or asked for the means
of extending the number of our iron-cased ships. I must,
however, make some exception to this assertion. On
Thursday week there was another discussion on the state
of our navy; and the Secretary of the Admiralty took that
opportunity of informing the house that the French Go-
vernment had been making very serious efforts to add to the
number of its iron-cased ships since February last. I
think he told us there was reason to believe that since that
month the French Government had laid down no less
than nine more of these iron-covered ships, and so
far as the number is concerned this statement exactly tallies
with the information I have received from Admiral Elliott.
But that information does not exactly tally with other parts
of the statement of the noble lord. When I allude to these
differences the house will bear in mind that what Admiral
Elliot told me yesterday is what ho has himself seen in the
last fortnight, while my noble friend could only speak from
the information he had received from others. Admiral
Elliott did not visit Toulon ; he says nothing of the ships
there ; but at other ports he saw the following ships in vari-
ous states of preparation ; some were only lately laid down,
others were in a forward state ; the Magenta and the Sol-
ferino are twc large ships, of 52 guns, to be launched in
June ; there are also the Normandie, Flandres, Magnanime,
Gauloise, Valeureuse, Couronne, Survoillante, Revanche,
Heroine, and Quillaine. Here are 12 armour-plated ships
in different states of preparation. Of the two at Toulon
Admiral Elliott does not profess to speak, but of the other
10 every one is a larger ship than La Gloire, and is intended
to be an improvement upon La Gloire, and all excepting
two, which are of iron, are wooden ships covered with
armour. There are thus, including La Gloire, 13 frigates,
besides which there are the two frigates referred to in M.
Chevalier's letter, where it was said " Twelve months must
elapse before we can get two more," and referred to also by
my noble friend last February, and then described by him
as being ships of large size, and carrying 52 guns. Now,
instead of being frigates of large size and carrying 52
guns, they are line-of-battle ships, two-deckers,
carrying two tiers of guns on each side. In ton-
nage they are very little short of our Warrior. The
Warrior is a little more than 6,000 tons ; these two ships
are of 5,100 tens, and instead of being 62-gun ships they are
pierced for 100 guns each. In short, they are two ships
suck as the world has never heard of before, because,
while nearly equal in tonnage to the Warrior they will have
100 guns, out of which 52-26 on each side—are entirely
covered with armour of full thickness, it being intended to
cover all the rest of their guns with armour of a lighter
character. I have now mentioned two line-of-battle ships
of 100 guns each, and 13 of which 12 are heavier than La
Gloire, making 15 armour• plated ships. The two line-of-
battle ships, named the Solferino and the Magenta, which
Mons. Chevalier said would be completed in a year
hence, are both to be launched in the approaching month
of June, on the anniversary of the battles the names of
which they bear. These two powerful ships will, there-
fore, be added immediately is the strength of the French
navy, and the 15 ships which I have enumerated will be in
addition also to the nine of which I have no information be-
yond that furnished by my noble friend—namely, the four
formidable batteries and the five gun-boats. The practical
point we arrive at is that the French are rapidly preparing
15 powerful armour-plated ships to be added to nine of a
different description also covered with armour, giving them
in the whole a force of 24 armour-covered ships, exclusive
of the old batteries which were used during the Russian
war. Now, what is the state of preparation in England ?
I am not aware of more than six ships of this description
in England which are built or being built. We have the
Warrior:and the Black Prince, two ships superior in ton-
nage, and superior, I hope, in speed to any of the French
ships, but very inferior in armament. (Hear.) The War-
rior and Black Prince will not, I believe, carry 50 guns
(Lord C. Paget.—" Forty guns"), while the two great
French line-of-battle ships will carry 100 guns each. We
have also the Defence and Resistance, one of which has
lately been launched. I am afraid that those two ships
must be considered as inferior to any one of the 15
vessels I have mentioned (Lord C. Paget dissented),
though I hope my noble friend is right in expressing an
opposite opinion. Then we have two more ships in the
course of building ; these are of intermediate size between
the Defence and the Warrior, and I know of nothing else
except the iron-plated ship of the same size as the Warrior,
which as we have head, the Admiralty intend to build at
Chatham. I have thus laid before the house the compara-
tive state of the two navies in this most important respect
at the present moment. The Vree.ch have 15 frigates and
line-of• battle ships, together with nine powerful ships of a
different description : in England, so far as I know, we
have six, or at the most, seven. Admiral Elliott assures me
that not only are the French in advance of us to the extent
I have now stated, but that in every one of the yards which
he visited the utmost efforts are being made to press all
those ships forward to cornlitetion, I LilY9 /IQ wish to ex-
cite es-leerm by making this statement. I make it because I
think it myffuty to onirealnicate to the Government and
the house in this public manner infoFmation of so startling
a character. Why are these preparationa being Made' ih
France ? I will not enter into the motives by which the
'reach Civvergaolit may be tAguilceci Pakilig such