The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

and he believed he was correct. He did not object to build-
ing a few Warriors and Black Princesibut it was impolitic
to persist in building so large a number of ships. The diffi-
culty of manning the navy was matter of general complaint,
and that was an additional reason for not going on build-
ing more ships. He had risen to make these remarks in no
unfriendly spirit to the Government, but, believing that
their Naval Estimates had been based on an exaggerated
notion both of the naval preparation and naval strength of

France, he had, he thought, given the committee reasons
for reducing trom. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that this
extravagant fit of the nation would soon be over, for the

house and the Government were not alone to blame. Per-

haps, sooner than they might expect hon. members would
be called to account and blamed by their constituents for
this enormous, unwise, and unnecessary expenditure.

(Hear.)

Mr. BENTINCK could not agree with his right hon.
friend (Sir J. Pakington) in his statement that the disci•
pline of the navy was in a very bad state. He did not pre-
tend to say it was either what it was or what it ought to be.
(Hear, hear.) It was susceptible, no doubt, of great im-
provement, but neither was it, according to all the

information he could obtain, in so bad a state as

has been described by his right hon friend. The
right hon. baronet ascribed the deteriorated condition
of the discipline of the navy to successive Boards of Admi-
ralty. That might be true to a certain extent, but the real
culprits were those whom he had now the honour of addres-
sing—the members of the House of Commons. The falling
off in the discipline of the navy had been owing to claptrap
harangues in that house and to unmeaning speeches about
flogging. It was a most painful duty to perform when com-
manders in the navy felt themselves obliged to inflict that

punishment ; but it should be borne in mind that flogging
was advocated by all the best seamen, though they were
themselves liable to the punishment ; and that in the muti-

nies at the Nore and at Spithead, when the fleet was under
the command of the men, the amount of flogging was

greater than at any other period. The hon. member, who
last spoke, complained of the increase in the British navy

_ .
within the last four years. That, however, was only owing
to the increase of the French navy, and to the necessity

thus occcasioned for maintaining the relative position and
strength of this country. The hon. member described the
invasion panic as a mere delusion. If it were, it was one
in which at any rate nineteen-twentieths of the people of
this country participated. The hon. member also talked of
the cost of the French navy, but how was it possible for the
hon. member to vouch for the accuracy of the figures he
quoted with regard to a country circumstanced like France?
1 he expenditure on the French navy might be £15,000,000
for aught the hon. member knew to the contrary. This
country required a great navy on account of its distant colo-
nies and extensive commerce ; but what could the French
want a navy for, except at some time or other for the pur-

pose of invading this country ? In reference to what had
fallen from the noble Secretary to the Admiralty he wished
to call attention to the subject of the naval coast volunteers.
It had been suggested that some small vessels should be as-
signed to those men to enable them to train on board for a
certain number of days during summer. This involved an
important consideration ; for it appeared to be decided
that the Volunteer force was to be a cheap means of
defence to this country, and therefore too much encou-

rangement could not be offered to any description of Volun
teers. He hoped his noble friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
would be good ensugh to state to the house on what ground
it had been decided to build the iron frigates wall-sided in-
stead of at an angle, which they were informed would
render them practically impervious to shot; also, when it
was intended to send the Warrior to sea, in order that her
capabilities might be test ed ; and whether opinions had not
been expressed by some competent judges unfavourable to
the lines on which the Warrior had been built, and par-
ticularly as to the amount of her displacement.
Sir M. SEYMOUR regretted that the Naval Estimates
were so large in amount, but did not believe they exceeded
the amount reasonably required for the navy. Expendi-
ture in former years had been allowed to fall so low that a
very large outlay was required to prepare our fleet for the
possibility of war; and political considerations required
that especially at present we should have a formidable force
afloat. It was true the commercial marine of France had
considerably diminished of late years, but every man had
been more or less trained to service on board ships of war
and was ready to serve when required; so that at any
moment the naval power of France was capable of large
development. Allusion had been in the course of the dis-
cussion made to the discipline of the navy, and he, for one,
while regretting that there should be any cause of com-
plaint on that score, found it impossible to say to what the
incidental irregularities which had been commented on
were to be attributed. They might be owing to the fact
that a large number of men were on board vessels lying a
good deal in harbour, and to the degree of indulgence
which was allowed, but at all events he felt assured they
were not of such a naturo as to prevent our navy from
doing its duty with accustomed loyalty and gallantry
whenever occasion arose.
Mr. LIDDELL expressed a hope that the statements
which had been made by the hon. member for Montrose
would not be allowed to pass unnoticed by the Government.
Indeed, it was, he thought, the bounden duty of Ministers
to reply to them, and, if possible, to show why the naval
estimates ought not to be reduced. (Hear, hear.) Passing
from that subject to what had fallen from the noble lord the
Secretary for the Admiralty, in-the-course-of-his observa-
tions in introducing the estimates, he felt called upon to
express his satisfaction that officers of the merchant service
were to be permitted to enrol themselves among the mem-
bers of the naval reserve, inasmuch as the two services
would thus be brought together in a manner which could
not fail to be productive of the greatest advantage. But
while he had listened with pleasure to the statement to that
effect which had been made, he was sorry to find that no
notice had been taken of that which constituted the gist of
the recommendations of the Royal Commission, the estab-
lishment of training ships at some of our chief ports. They
were told that 2,000 boys were now being trained in the
training ships at Portsmouth and Plymouth, and yet the
noble lord spoke of turning out 2,900 per annum. Where
were the other 900 boys to be trained? [Lord C. Paget—
In receiving-ships, flagships, and the fleet generally.] Our
mercantile marine was not now in a position to supply the
proportion of seamen for which we formerly looked from
that source ; for while, during the last 10 years, our ton-
nage had increased 33 per cent., our seamen had only in-
creased 10 per cent.
Mr. LINDSAY said that as to the number of ships of
war owned by England and France respectively there did
not appear to be any difference between himself and the
noble lord ; but the public had a vague impression that
France meant mischief to England (hear), and was prepar-
ing vast armaments for the purpose of invading this coun-
try. That impression was formed upon information which
came from the Treasury Bench. What were the facts as to
the armaments of France? Of efficient war-steamers
France had 75, while England had 140. In fact, England
had a larger number of efficient steamvessels not only than
France, but than all other countries in the world. (Hear,
hear.) It had been said that the whole seafaring popula-
tion of France, numbering some 1:56,000 men, was at the
disposal of the Minister of Marine ; but it would be found
that, after deducting dockyard labourers and " novices,"
there were not 80,000 seamen among the whole. We had
at that moment, in a time of peace, at least as many men as
France could muster even with her reserve, and in the hour
of danger three times as many would be at our command.
(Hear.) In regard to frigates, taking into account the
numbers and character of the vessels, we were decidedly
superior to France. The same remark might be made as to
iron ships. Of the 15 which France was said to have five
were gunboats carrying two guns, and four block ships,
which were, in many respects, unfit for sea. Only one of
the other six was ready, and before they were all completed
which could not be in less than two years, we should have
seven fit for sea. (Hear.) The Secretary to the Admiralty
had admitted that the Warrior was double the sire of La
Gloire and able to carry double the weight of metal. He
believed the Black Prince was not inferior to the Warrior.
It followed that the two iron-cased vessels which we had
already launched would be a match for four ships like La
Gloire. We had, therefore, n,othing to fear from the French
as far as iron-cased vessels were concerned. He had stated
what he believed to be the facts of the case. It was possible
that his information might be erroneous, but in that case the
Government ougbt to lay the truth before the committee.
Lord C. PAGET took it for granted that they were all de-
sirous of arriving at the truth. The Government had no
wish to overstate the naval resources of France, or to un-
derstate those of England. All the apparent discrepancies
arose from the different views which hon. gentlemen took
of naval matters. Somo supposed that a ship of 6,000 tons
should always be able to capture two ships of 3,000 tons ;
others, with snore reason, thought that two ships of 3,000
tons were more formidable as warlike engines than one
ship of 6,000 tons. (Hear, hear.) He admitted that oar
iron-cased vessels were much finer than those which had
been built abroad ; but the difference between the navies
of England and France was not so great as some hon. gentle-
men seemed to imagine. We had 53 screw line-of-battle
ships afloat and 14 building and converting, making a
total of 67. The French had 35 afloat and two build-
ing, making a total of 37. We had 31. screw
and nine paddle frigates afloat and 12 building,
making a total of 52. The French had 21 screw and IS
paddle frigates afloat and eight building, making a total of
47. Of the smaller class of steamships, the French bad
260 afloat and 01 building, making a_ total of 327;
while we had 505 afloat and 57 building, making a total
of 562. It thus appeared that we were in a very satisfac-
tory condition, and it was for that reason that the Govern-
ment had thought it incumbent on them to reduce the
shipbuilding expenditure for the coming year. The dock-
yards had been reduced to their normal state, and the only
reason why the reduction had not been carried much further
was that the Government wished to replenish the stock of
timber and stores, in order to be ready for any emergenoy.
He had already stated the facts with respect to the French
iron-cased ships. He believed that the two largest—the
Solferino and the Magenta—would be ready to be launched
in a very short period, and might be sent to sea within a
few months. Of the four frigates one was already at sea,
and the others were almost ready to be launched. The four
floating. batteries, a powerful class of vessels, were also in
an advanced state, and might be sent to sea in the course of
the present summer, These vessels, acoortlhig to the state-