The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-03 00:00:00

THE SUN,' ": LONDON, _ WtDNESDAY ,:EVENING,

DIR. ROEBUCK AND HIS CONSTI-

TUENTS.

The adjourned meeting at Sheffield for the pur-
pose of hearing Mr. Roebuck's explanations of his
views on Italian affairs and other matters was held
in the Surrey Music-hall yesterday morning.
There was again a crowded attendance, but all
and the meeting was -were comfortably seated,
ex-
tremely orderly, being quite intolerant even of
slight interruptions during the speeches of Mr.
Roebuck, who, as also Mr. Hadfield, was loudly
cheered on his entrance.
Mr. H. VILLIERS, the Mayor, again took the
chair, and, after bespeaking a fair hearing for Mr.
Roebuck, urged that the meeting must notcondemn
Mr. Roebuck simply because be differed in opinion
with them. (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, on coming forward, was receiv ed
with loud and enthusiastic cheering. He said,—
Mr. Mayor, I ask you all at first to be kind enough
to be quiet, for lam not very strong, and I want
really to make a full and, I hope, a candid expla-
nation. (Hear, hear.) To make that explanation
will take time, and will test my strength. That
strength won't allow me to get through my task if
you are noisy. (Hear, hear.) And now, sir, I will
at once go into the matter, and yesterday I asked
a question, which I was about to answer, but which
I was not allowed to answer ; and my question
was what it shall be now—Why am I here ? lam
here, sir, because statements have been made re-
specting my character as your representative which
I think it my duty to answer. (Hear, hear.) And
if I could only find my enemy to his. face I should
be perfectly satisfied. But anonymous attacks, un-
fair insinuations, and, I will add, base calumny,
have dogged my steps throughout the whole of
these proceedings. (Loud cheers.) Now, I ask
you to be quiet, and depend upon it no man is your
friend—my friend I care not about—but no man is
your friend who endeavours to interrupt you.
Mark him, because I would point him out as your
enemy, if there be such a man in this assembly.
Well, then, now, sir, what was the fault found with
me ? The faults found with me are two. (A Voice.—
" Three !" answered by cries of " Put him out,"
"Where is he ?" and confusion.) Now, be quiet ;
you will have an opportunity of answering. lam
accustomed to an assembly where a man is allowed
to say exactly what he chooses. I hope that the
people of Sheffield will not be more bigoted than
the English House of Commons. (Hear.) That is an
assembly -where a man can say exactly what he likes,
and therefore I honour that assembly. Now I will
go on my own division, and I say the charges
against me are two—first, that I voted in support of
maintaining Lord Derby in his Administration ;
and next, that I made a speech called an Austrian
speech. Now, Sir, I have myself been a servant of
the public nearly 30 years. I commenced that ser-
vice a poor man; I have remained a poor man ever
since ;lam so now. Well, but the insinuation is
that during the last two years of my life I have gone
back from all that for 28 years I professed, and that
I have sold myself, body and soul, for a sum of
money. If I had so sold myself I should have the
money, I suppose. My answer is, I have not the
money, and I have not spent it. (Cheers.) That, I
should have thought, would have concluded the
whole matter, but I will not hound the accusation
through all its windings and turnings. The first ac-
cusation is that I voted for Lord Derby's Govern-
ment, and the imputation conveyed by the accusa-
tion is this, that the Galway Company obtained a
subsidy from Lord Derby's Administration ; that I
was part of the Galway Company, and therefore I
voted for Lord Derby, Ido not blink the question
at all. First and foremost let us take dates. When
there was a doubt as to whether a subsidy should be
granted to the Galway Company I voted against
Lord Derby's Government, but when the subsidy
was granted, and there could be no doubt about it, I
voted for that Government. Thus, if I had expected
anything, I went against my own interest. This is
the fact. I said the accusation is that the Galway
CoMpany paid me. Now lam here, I have just got
this to say:—l was a director of the Galway Com-
pany. Very shortly after that company got its sub-
sidy I ceased to have connection with the company,
and from that time to this I do not know what
they have been doing. But there was an imputation
that there was a sumof XlO,OOO kept back to be divided
among the directors, and that of that amount I re-
ceived a large sum. I have a book before me with
which I expect you are not so familiar as I am. It is
called a Parliamentary blue book. (Oh, oh !) lam
very blind, and obliged to wear spectacles, and I
hope you will excuse me. (Hear.) Now this was a
committee appointed to inquire into contracts en-
tered into by packet and telegraph companies with
the Government. When I was applied to by cer-
tain gentlemen whom I had never before seen in
my life, I asked them what the Galway Company
was to do. They said their object was to establish
a line of steamers between Galway and New York,
Galway being the nearest point between Great
Britain and America. They said the passage would
occupy about six days ; and if they could create that
line it would be a benefit to Ireland, and to the trade
between both countries. Well, I said, " That is a
very legitimate object, I will join you ;" and I did
join them, They also said the Government had
granted a subsidy to a Liverpool line for carrying
the mails ; and they added, "It is also our intention
to carry the mails to New York, and we hope they
will subsidise a line of steam packets from Galway
to New York also." I said, " That, too, is a per-
fectly legitimate object. I think the people of Ire-
land ought to have a rapid communication with
America, and I will apply, along with the rest of the
directors, to Lord Derby's Government for a sub-
sidy." (Hear.) The subsidy to the Liverpool line
had been granted by a Whig Administration. I said
that being the case, I suppose it is a liberal measure,
and lam only carrying out what my friends ap-
prove.. I applied to Lord Derby, and after some
negotiation a subsidy of £75,000 a year was granted.
It was to be paid when the mails were car-
ried, and not before. No money was paid by the
Government till long after I left the company, and
I am not sure whether any of it has yet been paid.
So of that subsidy I never saw one farthing paid to
the company, and I have had no connection with the"
company since. (Cheers.) I was at this point yester-
day, when the noise became so great that I could not
proceed ; but now comes a matter that I think you
ought to know. There was £lO,OOO kept back by the
promoters of the company, and put into the deed
of settlement to be appropriated among t4e direc-
tors. That money was appropriated among the
directors, and now I will read to you the result.
When we came before a committee, they naturally
put their fingers on this, and said, What! have
members of Parliament received money for their
services ? Now, I will read to you :
"Mr. Edward Ellice (asked this question of the chair-
man of the Galway Company, who was then under exami-
nation)—Referring to the item in the balance-sheet just
put in of £lO,OOO remuneration to promoters in paid-up
shares, were any members of Parliament remunerated for
their services as promoters by paid-up shares ? (They
thought they had me there.) (Laughter.) At the present
moment I do not know that T can answer that question,
becausS several of the parties who bad got 'paid-up shares
have returned them to the company actually, and others
have promised to do so. The 10,000 shares were expressly
Provided by the articles of 'association, as being allowed to
he distributed among the promoters of the company, and
15107 were distributed; £2,500 wore given to Mr. Lever, and
a
vthe,r-007ere given to Mr. Lascaridi, making £5,000 in all,
y ng the principal parties in getting up the line ; the
other
m £6,000 were rateably distributed among the
roe
Iserabe rs of the Board, of whom I myself am one;
buterl
have
benefit of the Veturned those shares to the company for the
but if any gentleman chose to re-
tain them, thgeytl33l)anY
,e, „et ;
perfect liberty to do so under the
articles of associate,.

" Were there (they' fteked, following up the question) any
members of Parliament upon the list among whom those
£5,000. of paid-up shares were distributed ?—Yes, Mr. Lever
was one.

You have just stated that 45,000 was divided between
31r. Lever and Mr. Lasearidi ?—yos.
" That left £5,000, and of that £5,000 was any part given
to other members of Parldament ?--Lord Bury, who was
or 71 shares of
the deputy-chairman, rec rived, I think, 70

the amount.
" Are you sure ?—Quits certain. (Cheers.)
" AnYbody else ?—(Yc iu see how.pertinacioua they we
re.
one
else. Not v, mark the answer e f the chairman uman

•
(He ar,f hear.)
" (They were determined no longer to beat about the
bi ish, end so they said :) —I think we should have the per.
ti. ;ulars of the last f0t5,00( 1--.1 have givezz them, day that

the remaining 45,000 was proposed to be equally distri-
buted among the members of the board rateably.
" Were Mr. Lever and Lord Bury the only members of
Parliament on the Board ?—Mr. Roebuck had been upon
the Board, but he had retired, and he never received any
amount of the shares whatever ; but in order to give the
fullest answer to the question, it is right to say that he
was offered them, and that he refused them. He never had
them in his possession.
" Sir Henry Willoughby (who thought he would clinch
the whole matter, put it thus :)—Any statement that Mr.
Roebuck had received any portion of that money would be
untrue? (The answer is)—Absolutely false, (Loud
cheers.)
" Without a shadow of foundation ?—Without a shadow
of foundation."
(Loud cheers.) Now, what was my vote about with
respect to which they make this imputation ? It
was about reform in Parliament. What was my
argument ? (Interruption.) lam not accustomed to
die very easy. (Laughter.) If you will allow me to
proceed I will not leave a shred of the imputation
against me. The vote was about reform in Parlia-
ment. Now, what was my argument ? We; the
friends of reform, are in a majority in the House of
Commons. I am given to understand that Lord
Derby's Administration were determined to bring
in a better bill than before. Now, I said, we can
make what we like of that bill. Let us pass it
through the House of Commons ; Lord Derby's Go-
vernment, which had a majority in the House of
Lords, can pass it through there. We shall get a
Reform Bill shortly if we keep them in. But, mark
my words, I said, so sure as you turn them out, you
will get no Reform Bill from the so-called Liberal
party. (Hear.) People said, " That is one of the
wild assertions in which Mr. Roebuck deals," and
then came that other beautiful adjunct which I have
answered. But I declared again—depend upon it,
if you turn out Lord Derby and bring in a Liberal
Administration, no reform act we shall have. They
did turn out my Lord Derby, and have you got a
Reform Act ? (No, no, and cheers.) Has it been in-
troduced as a bill this year ? (No.) Do you think
you will ever get it ? (Cheers,) Depend upon it,
until the people themselves are determined—till
they coerce either a Liberal or Conservative Admi-
nistration—reform you will not have. But if you
had allowed Lord Derby at that time to bring in
his bill, and improved it in the House of Commons
—made it what you liked—he could have carried it,
and he would have carried it, through the House of
Lords, and then we should have seen in Sheffield
what, sir, when I mentioned to my friends—some
of my liberal friends in Parliament—l see a cold
shudder to come over them. (Laughter.) "What,"
they said, " is your present constituency ?" I said it
was between 6,000 and 7,000. " And what will
Lord John's £6 franchise do there ?" they asked. I
said, " I don't know ; I don't pay much attention
to statistics, but I am told by my friends there that
the constituency will amount to between 18,000 and
20,000." (Hear.) 0, sir, if you had seen their
faces ! (Laughter.) " Goed God ! are you really
in earnest ?" I said, " Yes ;" and then came out
that expression which, in the present state of the
atmosphere, I have no doubt you can well under-
stand—" All the respectables will be swamped."
But, swamped or not swamped, I am for a £6 Fran-
' chise. (Cheers.) I voted for Lord John's Bill, and
so did your other representative. I voted for it
along with that bright gentleman, Mr. White.
(Laughter.) I wish I could see him here. He put
himself forward as a great reformer, and we voted
with him. What did we then learn ? Why, that
the Liberal Administration will bring in no Reform
Bill this year. So, whatever becomes of it, you,
the working men of Sheffield, would have been en-
franchised at least three years earlier if Lord
Derby's Administration had been kept in than you
will be now, supposing you get a Reform Bill next
year. For trying to do that I was said to have sold
myself, body and soul, to a Conservative Adminis-
tration. This, then, is the first charge that has been
brought against me; I have answered it. The next
thing is, I made an Austrian speech. Well, but
then I know my countrymen well enough to know
this, that if that speech had been spoken by one who
was pure reason itself, and yet if an accusation is
brought against the man making the speech, the
public mind is turned towards the accusation, and
not to the argument of the speech itself. (Hear.)
Therefore, I will begin again with the imputation,
which was that I made that speech because the
Government of Austria had made a contract with
me. That bright gentleman, Mr. White—(laughter)
—said to me in the House of Commons, "If Mr.
Roebuck could hear the statements made in the
city," upon which there was a general curiosity in
that house to know what the city really did say.
Mr. White added, "They say to me in the city,
do you hear that Mr. Roebuck has come home ?
He has been in gilded saloons"—l think lam in
one now—(laughter)—" he has been in gilded
saloons ; has dined with archdukes and arch-
duchesses, and has come home with a lucrative con-
tract in his pocket." My answer to that is, in gilded
saloons I have been. I have really—l do hope you
will believe me—l really have dined with an arch-
duke and and archduchess. (Laughter.) That is
not the first duke I have dined with. (Laughter.)
Bat I have not brought home a contract. (Hear.)
I have entered into no contract. I have nothing to
do with any contract entered into with the Austrian
Government or any Government under heaven.
Well, now, what can I say more ? The speech to
which the imputation refers I did make, and it was
made upon careful consideration. It never entered
into my mind that- anybody could suppose I had
come there bought and sold to make an Austrian
speech. I knew I had been for 30 years fighting
the battles of the people, and I did not expect that
my countrymen would treat me in that way—would
have pointed their fingers at me, and said, " After
28 years' service that man has sold himself." Bat
it comes to that. I distinct:y state that I have no
contract; lam no party to any contract ; no contract
whatever has been made in which I have had the
slightest association, except that I gave to the Aus-
trian Gsvernment a certain set of advice. Now
what was the advice ? As your representative I
was very well known in Austria. I recollect one
gentleman saying—" We have known that name 30
years. We know he is what is called a Liberal in
your country, but nevertheless we rather like the
little man." (Laughter.) lam merely repeating
what they said ; I dare say they were wrong.
(Laughter.) But they listened to me. They said
—" He is an old Parliamentary politician; let us
hear what he says." What was my advice ? My
advice was this—and it was given plainly and
boldly to the Prime Minister of Austria—" Give to
your people a parliamentary constitution. (Hear,
hear.) Give to them thorough self-government in
their municipalities; let them govern themselves
and you have a Parliamentary representative of
the Austrian Empire. (Hear.) Now my object
is," I said, " to make you good friends with Eng-
land. I understand the position of Austria. I
know that England's best friend, if you know ,
your own interests, is here in this country ; and in '
order to bind England to you, do you two things— ,
give your people liberal institutions, and connect
yourselves commercially with England." (Cheers.)
That was the advice I gave. Novelet me come to
my Austrian speech. (Hear, hear.) If you will be
quiet, you shall hear. Now, what was the meaning
of what I said in that speech ? I will give you a
very rapid statement of what I did say, and the
grounds for it. I said that the Italian question
now really involved European politics. On the
north-west of Italy there is a great Power called
France, and on the north-east a great Power
called Austria. Now, I look at this question as
an Englishman. In doing so, I may appear to
some very narrow-minded ; but, somehow, I have
taught myself to believe that what is for England's
interest is for the world's interest. (Hear, hear.)
When I bring my mind to believe that anything
is really a benefit to the good people of Eng-
land, I believe, standing as we do in the van
of freedom, and being a great light to all the
liberal world, that what is for the benefit of
England is for the benefit of mankind. (Hear.)
Now, what do I want ? I want a free and I want

an independent Italy. (Hear.) I said, at the pre-
sent time it is all very well to talk about a free and
independent Italy. Some people go to war for an
idea—(hear)—and that idea is embodied in a large
icountry. They ran themselves up to the top of the
Alps by taking Nice and Savoy. Since the days of
uhttrus VIII. of France, France has had her eye

upon Italy, and my desire and wish is to check
France; that Italy, when she is united--which she
is not now,—when she is united, shall be an inde-
pendent Italy, and not the vassal of France. At the
present moment, I said,--speaking from the infor-
mation of the newspapers,—France has 40,000 troops
in Rome. I am told by the Times that I was in error;
they have only 20,000 troops there. Well, now, I
want to know why a wedge of French troops should
be pushed in between South and North Italy, and
should keep possession of Rome ? Sir, as I said in
the English House of Commons, I will say here-1,
who have no faith in Louis Napoleon, want those
troops away. My belief is that, for the sake of
Italy, for the sake of England, for the sake of in-
dependence generally, the old Italian policy ought
to be carried out in Italy. What is that? Why,
to balance one Power against another. France is
like a threatening cloud overhanging Italy from
the crests of the Alps. They have wished, the
Emperor of the French has wished, to have his
family in Italy. My desire is that the Mediterra-
nean should not be a French lake—(hear, hear)—
but that English ships should sail there as safely
as in the English Channel, and my purpose was to
recommend to the Administration of Lord Palmer-
ston that they should really have no interference
with political transactions abroad; that non-inter-
vention should really be carried out. Now, how
was I answered ? "We don't intend to interfere."
Very well, then, I said, " Abstain from recommend-
ing to Austria to withdraw entirely from Venetia."
Now, this is the question between us. I want to
know, as a politician, having studied that ques-
tion, whether, because that is my opinion, I am
unworthy of your confidence; whether I
am supposed to be sold, body and soul,
because that is my opinion ? (" You are wrong,"
and " Hear, hear.") Well, that is my opinion. I
say now, at this present moment, Austria having
given a liberal constitution to every part of her
dominions. (" No.") It is all very well to say No,
but I have that constitution here with me in this
town. (Cheers.) That constitution has been sent
to me; I have it bound, and it is now at the house
of your honoured mayor. (A Voice—" It would be
better if it were in Austria.") (Cries of " Turn
him out!" hisses and groans, the meeting being
obviously intolerant of the slightest interruption.)
The MAYOR called for order, but his voice was
inaudible amid the manifestations of disapproba-
tion at the interruption.
Mr. ROEBUCK at length resumed—l hope you
will forbear, and. will allow anybody to express
his opinion. I would only say to these gentle.
men who interrupt, " Just check your im-
patience awhile ; I cannot talk for ever, and
then will come your turn." Well then, sir, that
is my opinion. I believe you check France
better by having Austria upon the borders of Italy
than' by sending her up to the crests of the moun-
tains. But lam told, " Beautiful Venice, worthy
Mantua, learned Padua, would you have them under
the hoof ?" (Hear, hear.) Yes, I understand per-
fectly well what that means—" Would you have
them under the hoof of"—what they choose to call
—" stupid Austria ?" Well, now, it is all very well
to say " Stupid Austria ?" let me say a word about
Austria. I went into that country, and in their
families I found English books. I found that from
one end of the country to the other there is perfect
liberty springing up. They told me they had got
all these ideas from the literature of England. In
every family where they could afford it, they had
English governesses to teach their children. (Hear,
hear.) They had English books. What was their
statement ?--" Your literature is rich ; we can put
your books in the hands of our children, and we
cannot do that with French books. Therefore, our
minds have been turned to England. England is
a glorious country ; there you govern your-
selves ; for that we pant." As sure as the sun
rises, the time will come when Austria will be self-
governed. Austria has another constitution now.
It depends upon the people of that country whe-
ther they will be self-governed. I say calling them
stupid Austria only shows how ignorant they are
who say this. A more instructed, kind, and cour-
teous people I never met with. (Cheers.) Well
but then. (Interruption.) Wait until I have done.
Well but then, they say, " it is all very well for
you to say this, but what do you mean by not ad
miring Garibaldi ?" I say Ido admire him. Gari-
baldi, to my mind, is a very remarkable man.
(Slight interruption, and cries of "Order.") He
has never had*an opportunity of showing himself a
great general ;it is not as that I admire him. Ido
no think he is a great statesman ; it is not as that
I admire him. But he is a remarkably good man ;
he has shown an utter abnegation of self. Unlike
any other man except George Washington, he has
shown himself to be heart and soul in the cause for
which he stands up, and on that account he has my
admiration and respect. (Cheers.) Now then as
to the matter of fact. When Garibaldi went to
Sicily he did not fight under the name of any na-
tion ; he was a mere adventurer; he was what the
Americans call a filibuster. (Oh, oh, and no, no.)
Don't mistake me—understand my definition. A
man who fights not under the name of any nation,
not under the flag of any people, that man is an
adventurer. I am only telling you a matter of
fact when I say that it is laid down by the law of
nations that a man so fighting, if he be caught, if
he be taken prisoner, can be and is hanged. (Serve
him right.) No, I say no. (Cheers.) I say that
Garibaldi, when he went to Sicily and Naples, did
a great good to mankind. Thatkingdom of Naples
was so horribly governed that when he went into
Naples by the railroad—he did not go with an army
—did he not show there his own great confidence
in his cause—did he not go to put an end to the
effete and abominable Government of the King of
Naples ? Did he not show himself to be worthy
of the admiration of mankind ? (Yes, yes, and
cheers.) I say yes. But if that same man had been
taken by the soldiers of the King of Naples—if he
had been seized, then, according to the law of
nations, they might and, according to the character
of the Neapolitans, they would have hanged him.
(A voice, " Serve him right !" and counter cries of
" Shame !") Now, then, as to the fact. Let it be
truly and fairly understood that for Garibaldi I
have the highest respect. As a matter of fact

have stated to you what he really was, and if he
had gone against a British regiment, a French
regiment, or an Austrian regiment, his army would
have been broken. That is my opinion. I believe
that, with the set of men he had, brave although
they were—and yet they were not even equal to
our Volunteers, and our Volunteers have not yet
been in the field, although when they do go there
I have no doubt they they will give a good account
of their enemies.; but, Sir, tha followers of Gari-
baldi were a body of men, not an army; they were
a set of adventurers, gallant fellows for the work
they went out to do, but they could not have stood
up against an English, French, or Austrian regi-
ment. (" What about Como ?") I don't want
to go through the history of that campaign.
They have not yet met with a regular English,
French, or Austrian army, and I hope they never
may. The French army at this present moment
remains in Rome. No Piedmontese troops, no Gari-
baldians will drive them out. If they go they will
go of-their own accord. Depend upon it, any attack
by Garibaldi and his followers upon Venetia will
end as I tell you; it will be a wave
going against
a rock ; and, because I have a great respect, regard,
and admiration for Garibaldi, I pray God he may be
wise enough not to do it. Well, now, Sir, I have
got this to say. You have heard my opinions. Are
you satisfied with them ? If not, are you so infal-
lible as to say, because I am of those opinions I
must be wrong, car, being wrong, I must be un-
worthy ? That is the statement made against me.
Your•penny papers, the very existence of which is
in a great measure part of my work—for, from the
very time I went into Parliament, I advocated a
free press—your penny papers have contained
and your walls have been placarded with insinua-
tions—aye, let me use the word—with base state-

ments against myself. (Hear, hear.) Well, but this
is a politician's question. I have no doubt all of you
are a great deal cleverer than I am. (Laughter.)
But I happen to be your representative, and you
must allow mg to judge for myself. Depend upon
it, no other man judges for rne. What I think I
say with every boldness, as you yourselves have

I,kn-own before now. When I differ from you I tell

you so. Nothing has guided me through my whole
political career but the view
,I have taken of Eng-
lish interests. I may have been wrong. Where is
the man who has not been wrong? (Hear, hear.) I
have learnt to bear and forbear. I would tell all
those who judge of me by themselves, I suppose, I
would tell them that time out of mind I might have
been sold; I might now, instead of being as I am,
put upon my trial, have been so well off that not
one of those parties would have raised his voice
against me. (Cheers.) Sir, I really am proud—l
acknowledge it. 1 began life as the servant of
my country. I am talking of my political life.
From that time to this I have fought the cause
of freedom. No man dared to come to me
and ask me to vote this way or that.
lam never told in the House of Commons what I
am to do. No whipper-in ever comes to me.
(Laughter.) Oh, they say, he will do exactly as
he likes. (Laughter.) I have from the commence-
ment of my career done exactly as I liked, and let
it be told to you now, not for the first time, that I
shall do as I like. (Cheers.) lam sent to Parlia-
ment as your representative; at the end of that
term I come to answer for the deeds I have done
in your name, and you know what to do. If you
don't like me, send me adrift. (Cheers and laughter.)
If you think I have acted honestly and to the best
of my ability, and that I have been devoted to your
service, you then know what to do. (Cheers.) Now,
let me tell my detractors that I am afraid of no
imputation. Truth is great and will prevail ;
(" Well done !") and, God willing, so long as I have
health and strength to fight the battle of the good
people of England, I have that confidence in my
countrymen that, eventually I am sure they will
say I have been a good and faithful servant, and
as such honour my name. (Loud and protracted
cheers, during which Mr. Roebuck resumed his
seat.)
Mr. W. M. WOOD said he wished to ask Mr.
Reebnck what would be the cost of the fortifica-
tion scheme of Lord Palmerston for which he voted,
and against which Mr. Hadfield voted, and what
would be the annual cost of keeping up those for-
tifications ? (Cries of " No !" " Qnestion !" "We've
nought to do with it," &c.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—WiII you bear with me for a
moment? Our friend here,. I have no doubt,fancies
(interruption) he has a right to ask this question,
and I hope I have a right to answer it. I believe
from one end of Great Britain to another there is a
feeling of suspicion growing up—or did some time
ago grow up—that we, as a great nation, were not
in the position we ought to be in ; that there was
by-our side a man who wielded an army of 600,000
men, in whom the people of England had no confi-
dence. They thought the Volunteer movement
ought to be got up, and it sprang from the earth,
as it were, armed, and frightened the despot.
(Hear.) I believe—and though I have differed in
that from my hon. colleague, we very seldom do
differ—l believe it was wise in England to haveher
arsenals defended, for in these days of steam a fleet
can be got together to meet at Portsmouth at a cer-
tain given day, and if there was nothing to resist,
then our arsenals and our power of resistance would
be taken away. (Cheers.) In order that England
might have her due weight among the nations I
voted for Lord Palmerston's proposal. Ido not be-
lieve my countrymen thought I was doing wrong.
(Hear.) I believe my colleague was mistaken. (No,
no !) Do you suppose that therefore I thought him
unworthy of your confidence ? No, my regard and
respect for him remain the same, and I ask you to
treat me as I treat him. I may be wrong, but lam
sure in this matter I had the largest portion of my
countrymen with me, and none more so than the
men of Sheffield. (Cheers.)
Mr. DODWORTH said he had long supported Mr.
Roebuck, and was glad to hear him answer for him-
self in the manner he had done. Nevertheless, he
had something against him from the speech he had
made. (Cries of " Question," and interruption.)
Mr.:Roebuck said, depend upon it we shall never
get reform till the people themselves are deter•
mined to, have it. (True !) He also said that what-
ever was for the interest and good of England was
for the interest and good of the world. That was
his opinion. He (Mr. Dodworth) wished to ask him
this question. If any nation or people determined
to rise against their rulers, would Mr. Roebuck take
sides against such people in favour of such rulers,
because it was for the interest or good of England ?
(Hear, hear.) Or would he leave the people or
nation to do the best for themselves, and be strictly
neutral both with regaiel to moral and physical aid ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—In answer to that question I would
say I should first inquire what the interests of Eng-
! land require. I will suppose that nation to be Ire-
land. (Hear.) In 1828, if you had polled Ireland
you would have got a majority against England.
But I should have kept up and maintained the union
between England and Ireland. (No, no.) I have
always been for the union. I may be wrong, and
I daresay certain ardent Irish gentlemen will think
that I am, but I was unfavourable to the movement
for a dissolution, and stood up for the union between
England and Ireland ; and I believe I did wisely at
that time in not joining a large portion of the
people of Ireland who were for disunion. There is
another nation under our rule that has a Parlia-
ment who are determined to poll the:people whether
they will remain under the dominion of England or
not. That is the people of the lonian Islands,
known as the Septinsular Republic. They have a
Parliament, and it met about two months ago, and
passed a resolution that they should poll the people
of the islands whether England should retain
Corfu. The Governor, an Englishman, prorogued
that Parliament. Should I join the people of the
lonian Islands against England ? I say, No. I say it
is for the interest of mankind that England should
have interests in the Mediterranean, and that it
should not become a French lake as the great
Napoleon wished to make it. England governs
Corfu as she governs her own country. The people
are contented and happy, and I would maintain
the power of England. I would join England
against anybody. (Cheers.)
Mr. W. SHARMAN wished to ask Mr. Roebuck
bow it was that he justified Austria in retaining
Venice, and advised the British Government not to
recommend Austria to withdraw from Venice, while
he condemned France for keeping Rome in bondage
in like manner? (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—The position of Austria and of
France is entirely different. (Hear, hear, and disap-
probation.) Austria was put into possession of
Venetia by treaties to which England was a party, at
what was called the pacification of Europe in 1815.
The then Republic of France sent troops and took
possession—violent possession—of Rome. Now, if
Venice were situated down where Rome is, I
should say the sooner Austria was out of Venice the
better. The position of Rome is a very different
one, and the possession of Rome by France is a
very different one from that of Venice by Austria.
One is the result of treaties to which the whole
European world was a party, to which we are
bound in faith and honour now. I say to England,
" Hold your hand. Have nothing to do with any
foreign intervention ; let them settle their affairs as
they will." I tell you that my opinion is that by
the balance of power Austria is required. She is
what I call your natural ally on the Continent.
The sooner France is out of Rome the better. You
will then hare a united Italy, and with the aid of
Austria and England
you will have an independent
Italy. But you will not have an independent
Italy if you have the dominion of France. If you
drive out Austria you will make France stronger
than she now is. You will make the Mediterranean
what the First Napoleon wished it to be—a French
lake. And there again comes in my rule—Eng-
land's interest requires it to be a free sea, and I am
in that case, as in all others, the friend, the honest
and ardent friend, of my country. (Cheers.)
Mr. DODWOILTH said that Mr. Roebuck had not
answered his question in the way that he had put
it. He answered it politically, and by his speech
he (Mr. Dodworth) gathered that Mr. Roebuck
meant that because he believed the English people
had more liberty and more stability about them
than any other people he thought what was for
their interest was for the good of the world.
Therefore, for the good of the world, and the
good of England, he understood Mr. Roebuck
would interfere' with the rising of any other
people. (Mr. Roebuck dissented.) Mr. Roebuck
said that the English had done the same thing
to Ireland that Austria was doing to Venice, with
the difference that Venice was given to Austria.
(Disapprobation and counter cheers.) Now, he
wanted Mr. Roebuck to answer his previous ques-
tion on this point, and also to say whether, because
Venice was given to Austria in 1815, he considered
that binding on people living in 1861. (Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—(Cheers)—I will first answer the
last question, " Are the people of England bound
by what was done in 1815 ?" I say they are.
(Cries of "No.") Now, I ask you, is not every
nation governed by law ? (Yes.) And do you say
I am not to be obedient to an Act of Parliament
passed
a bad one."] I want to know if lamto be a judge
of that.
tn
Ain 1815 I
P [Mr. Sharman—" Not when it's
an estate ; new, to say to my neighbour, " You have
, in my opinion, I ought to have it ?"
Can I here stand up and say, "It is all very true
you passed that law in 1815. lam living in 1861;
t
I don't think that law a good one, and I won't obey
it." What would be the consequence ? I should
be shut up in youy.town gaol directly. Then 1 dof