The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-13 00:00:00

RETURNS.
On the motion of Mr. C. FOSTER, the usual annual
returns of Divisions of the House, Select Committees,
and Private Rills; were ordered.
SMOKE NUISANCE (SCOTLAND) ABATEMENT

BILL.
On the motion that the bill as amended be con-
sidered,
Mr. BUCHANAN opposed the bill on representations
;hat had been made to him that its operation would
oaterially interfere with the manufactures of Scotland.
By the bill the great aggressors would escape its penal-
Aes, whil3 the smaller ones would be caught in its
meshes. He moved the further consideration of the
bill till this day three months.
Mr. KINNAIRD expressed his surprise at the
motion of the honourable member for Glasgow at
this stage of the bill. In London, where every branch
of manufacture was carried on, a similar act had been in
operation for some time, and had been found to work
well, both for the manufacturer and the public gene-
rally. This bill had been for a considerable time before
the people of Scotland, yet not one petition had been
presented against it. He expressed his regret at any
exceptions having been introduced into the bill, but he
felt certain that in a year or two hence, the persons
engaged in the trades excepted would apply to be
brought within its provision. He opposed the motion.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
The bill, as amended, was then .considered.
Mr. BUCEIANA.N. matted the of the
words " 200 yards" for " a quarter of a mile" in refer-
ence to the distance of factories from a town to be ex-
empted from the operations of the bill.
Mr. KINNAIRD opposed it.
'1 he hoses then divided. The numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it 57
Majority
The amenument was consequently negatived.
The bill as amended was then ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.

SALE OF OBSCENE BOOKS, &a. PREVENTIVE
BILL.

- The house went into committee on this bill and the
clauses were agreed to.
Sir E. PERRY proposed to bring up a clause to
exempt Scotland from the operations of the bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK protested against proceeding with
the bill in such indecent haste. If the bill was good for
England, it was equally good for Scotland ; but a more
preposteronq piece of legislation was never sent down
from the House of Lords, and that was saying a good
deal. It was an attempt to make people virtuous by
act of Parliament, and he was afraid it would be made
use of to establish a sort of magisterial inquisition.

Sir G. GREY supported the bill, observing that it
was brought in by the Lord Chief Justice to correct an
abuse which had come under his own eye.
M. ROEBUCK called attention to the celebrated
classical works which would come within the category
of works calculated to excite the passions of youth, and
asked where a line of prohibition could be drawn. They
should depend upon the honest, upright feeling of the
country to put an end to the evil, and in that way more
would be done than by all their inquisitorial acts. I
Mr. AYRTON had given notice of an amendment
to the mover of the bill, whose approbation it had met
with, and he was surprised to find that the bill was
about to he reported without it. •
Sir G. GREY. suggested the withdrawal of the clause,
leaving it to the Lord Advocate to. introduce a clause
at a future day applicable to Scotland.
Sir E. PERRY consented to withdraw his amendment

on that understanding.
Mr. NAPIER gave his cordial support to the bill.
After some discussion, in which Mr. M. Mines, Mr.
Melbas, Sir E. Perry, and other hon. members took
part,
Mr. LOCKE said that the word " exhibition" in the
claw° was a dangerous thing, and might be applied to
persons showing a friend a picture, &c. If it was to
be applied only a public exhibition, for money, care
should be taken to guard the innocent portion of the
public against the police acting beyond their duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
minded the committee that the question was whether Scot-
land should remain in the bill. It would be better for the
house to consider that point only, and reserve the other
matters for con44eration till another stage of the bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK alluded to the existence of gamb-
ling-houses and house3-of ill-fame. The latter were to
be found in the best streets of London, and if they were
impotent in putting down houses of ill-fame, he thought
they would be found equally so in putting down the
publication of obscene books, &c. Would any hon. mem-
ber dare to say that houses 'of ill-fame were not as
objectionable as the publications referred to. Some
persons considered naked statues indecent, and he was
inclined to believe with Swift, " the nicest people have
the nastiest ideas." Many, he said, believed these
statues to be indecent, especially those representing the
female figure, and he had heard persons complain of the
Greek slave, but be should have thought that persons
could have looked upon it as cool as the marble itself,
but it appeared there were many hot and prurient
people who looked upon it otherwise, and went so far
as to gate that all nude figures should be destroyed or
covered with aprons. The Venus and Adonis in the
National Gallery, might under this bill be considered as
an obscene production, and any canting hypocritical
justice cause its destruction. Nothing would, there-
fore, be safe, and it would be useless to erect buildings
for their reception.
After some discussion, on the suggestion of Sir G.
GREY the bill passed through committee pro forma, on
the understanding that it should be recommitted for
further diecussion.

SUPPLY.
Mr. FITZItOY brought up the report of supply
wl,ica was agreed to after some remarks relative to
Pimlico improvements.
MILITIA.
Sir J. lIAMSDEN obtained leave to bring in a bill
to defray the expenses of the, pay, clothing, and other
expenses of the disembodied militia in Great Britain and
Ireland.

over, prevents the consumer from obtaining the full be-
nefit which might be derived from the existing rate of
duties. If I had delayed making any proposition upon
the subject of a change in the duties payable after April
next until the month of February or March I should
have been told, and truly so, that that was too short. a
notice to give to the trade. I therefore thought it was
incumbent on me to make my proposition at the end of
the present session, in order to give ample notice to all
persons interested in the matter. I laid upon the table
at the beginning of July a very full return on the subject
of the duties oa tea and sugar, and if hon. gentl -man
have peiused that document I am sure they have found
it contain more complete and more authentic informa-
tion upon the subject of the consumption of tea and
sugar in this country than was ever before included
within the same compass. Assuming, therefore, that the
committee have had an opportunity of consulting that
document, it will be unnecessary for me to make any
lengthened statement upon the subject. I would, how-
ever, venture to call the attention of the committee to
one or two facts bearing upon the subject. The amount
of revenue raised from the sources we are now consi-
dering may be taken in round figures to be about
10,500,000/ a-year. The sugar duties in the year
1855 produced 5,058,000/. ; and in 1856, 5,129,6491.
The tea duties in 1855 produced 5,316,275/. ; and in
1856, ,5,536,6261. The average revenue for the last
two years from tea and sugar has been 10,517,5251.
Therefore itavill be seen that a very large revenue is at
stake with reference to the duties of tea and sugar.
There is also another fact to which I beg to call the at-
tention of the committee.. 1 fully concur with all that
can be said as to the benefit which all classes of the com-
munity, and especially the working classes would derive
from a reduction in the duties on tea and sugar. The
returns on the table show how increased consumption has
been the consequence of reduction in the price of those
articles. They suggest strongly, the making—and I regret
that it is not in our power, looking at the present and
prospective expenditure of the country, to be able to
make—further reductions in those duties. There, is, how-
ever, this consolatory consideration, that the duties fixed
by the present act are lower with respect to tea and sugar
than they have been at any previous time. With regard
to sugar the duty-may have been lower at some time in
the last few years, but with regard to tea the duty is
lower than at any previous time. The war duty on tea
last year was is. 9d., and it is fixed at present at ls. sd.
per lb. The average duty on sugar last year was 14s.
6d., and it is now about 14s. per cwt., though in the
common sorts there is a difference' of about 2s. 6d. per
cwt. With regard to tea, there is a very material reduc-
tion as compared with the year 1852. In 1852 and np
to that time for a series of years the duty was 2s. 2fd ,
whereas it is now ls. sd, (Hear.) The committee will
find in the papers before the house an account which I
have obtained since the end of last session with a view
of showingthe comparative consumption of tea and sugar
by different classes of society. Such a return has never
parts of the
been obtained before. and I will, with the pecrommipsasiroanof
consumptionthe
of state
different
different be the
United Kingdom. With regard to tea, it appears on the
best information that can be obtained that in England
the upper and middle classes consume 56 per cent. of the
whole quantity, and the poorer and working classes con-
sume 44 per cent. In Scotland the tapper and middle classes
consume 54 per cent., and the poorer and working classes
46 per cent. The proportion in England and Scotland
is very nearly the same. But with regard to Ireland
the ratio is reversed. The upper and middle classes con-
sume 35? per cent., and the poorer and working classes
consume 643 per cent. There is considerable difficulty
in accounting for this difference, assuming the returns to
be correct, and the only suggestion that I can make is
that, owing to the smallness of the middle class in Ire-
land compared with the rest of the community, and the
great proportion of poor to the entire Community, in
comparison
is
greater withthe Englandpoor oflreland,
and Scot land the consump-
tion
though it is smaller
by the poor of England and Scotland. (Bear.) With
regard to sugar, it appears that in England the upper
and middle classes consume 60 per cent. and the poorer
and working classes 40 per cent. to the total quantity.
In Scotland the upper and middle classes consume 62
per cent. and the pourer and working classes. 38 per
cent, Again,•the same ratio is reversed in Ireland. In
Ireland the upper and middle classes are stated to con-
sume 34 per cent., and the poorer and working classes
66 per cent.
Mr. STAFFORD—How do you divide the classesi
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—They
are not divided by me, but by the persons wh'o made the
return. Like many other divisions it is a division de craie.
There is no precise line to be drawn between moderate
heat and excessive heat. Nevertheless there is an in-
telligible line which any person can draw.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—Upon what bases are those
calCulations founded I

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-The
returns are obtained in Ireland and Scotland from the
Poor Law Commissioners, and in England and Scotland
partly from the Board of Inland Revenue, and partly
from the Board of Customs. The returns have been
obtained with great care, but may be liable to error.
I give them to the committee as the best information
it is in my power to obtain. I think they will admit
that the subject is worthy of consideration. I shall
be, of course, voey happy if any correction can be sug-
gested, and all the materials aro submitted to the house.
With regard to the sugar duty I cannot, on the whole,
consider it a very excessive duty as compared with the
price. The average price of sugar in bond for the six years
from 1851 to 1856 wai 1/. sg. IW. per cwt. The average
duty may now be taken to be 141. Therefore, the com-
mittee will see that it is a duty which, as compared with
the price, is not excessive. With regard to tea, I regret
to say the duty, as fixed at present, bears a greater pro-
portion to the price, and undoubtedly, if our financial
position admitted of any moderation of these duties, the
duty on tea would seem to have a stronger claim on con-
sideration. The average price of tea in bond for the same
six years was ls. 20. per lb. The duty at present is
Is. 53. Therefore the duty on tea, taking the average
price, is more than 100 per cent., which is a high duty,
and, looking to the consumption of the country, it would
be very desirable, if our financial position permitted, to
reduce it. But there is one circumstance to which lam
desirous of calling the attention of the committee with
respect to the operation of these duties. What really
affects the coesumer and the extension of consumption is,
of course, the price which be has to pay. The price is
partly affected by the duty, bi 4 also by other causes in-
dependent of the du y. Therefore, in 'looking et the in-
crease or diminution of consumptior, it is necess try to
bear in mind not only the increase of duty, but the
variation of price, which may be greate,- than any altera-
tion al duty, although by different causes. I will venture
to cAI the attention of the committee to an illustration
of this remark. The smallest consumption of Lugar per
heed since 1816 was in 1840. Comparing the two years
1839 and 1840 the consumpt ion stands as follows: -In 1839
3,830,393 c wt.; in 1840, 3,594, 412 cwt. In 1839 theaverage
duty was 1/. 4.e.; in 1840 it was 1/ 5-4 23. Increased duty
in the latter year is. 23. per cwt. Taking the facts of a
diminution of consumption in the latter year and an in-
crease of duty, a persou would naturallyfsay there is the
explanation of the diminution of consumption. But when
we look further we find other causes much more opera-
tive. In 1839 the average price in bond wash/. 19s. 2d.
In 1840 it was 2/. 9e. 13., showing an increase of 9s. 11d.
The average price, inelusive of ditty, in 1839 was 3/. 3s.
2d. In 1840 it was 3/. 14e 3d., showing an increase in
the total price of 11s. ld., of which only ls. 2d. was due
to the increase of duty. Therefore it is manifest that the
great diminution of consumption which occurred in the
latter year was mainly attributable to the natural in-
crease of price, and not, to any great extent, to an in-
crease of dots. In further illustration I will take the last
two years, 1855 and 1856. In 1855 the consumption was
7,547,157 cwt. ; in 1856 it was 7,071,515 cwt. In 1855
the average duty was 13s. sd. ;'in 1856 it was 14s. 6d.,
being an increase of ls. 13. Looking at the diminished
consumption and the increased duty, a person might say
that is the cause. But then it must be borne in mind
that in 1855 the average price in bond was 1/. 6s. 9d ,
and in 1856 U. 9s. 73., being an increase of the price in
bond of 2s. 10,1. The average price, inclusive of duty,
was in 1855 21. Os. 21, ; and in 1856 2/. 4s. id,, being
an increase of 3s gild., of which only is ld, was due to
the increased duty. Ttiat also shows that the principal
cause of diminished consumption was the natural increase
of price, owing to the diminished supply, and not to any
great extent to the increase of the duty. Under these
circumstances, I trust the committee will agree to the
resolutions which I have placed in the hands of the
Chairman, authorising me to found a bill upon them
to continue for two years from the Ist of April next
the existing duties on tea and sugar. (Hear, hear.) I
will now revert to the question put to me by the hon,
baronet opposite (Sir H. Willoughby)with respect to
the probable demands on the Exchequer in aid of the
finances of the East India Company, The proposal
which I now make will not add anything to the Ways
and Means of the current year. It makes no alteration
whatever with respect to the year ending the Ist April
next. It only proposes to arrest the fall of duties which
would otherwise occur at that period, and to continue
the existing duties for a term of two years. It seems to
be expected by the bon gentleman-and there seems to
be in the minds of the public an impression-that it will
be incumbent on her Majesty's Government to make
some proposal before Parliament separates, with a view
of assisting the Indian Treasury. In the present state
of public affairs in India it has been niy duty, and the
duty of her Majesty's Government to communicate with
the Chairman of the East India Company on this sub-
ject, and the East India Company have been informed
that the Government were ready to take into considera-
tion any representations which ithey might make with
respect to any change in the law which they might wish
to propose as to their power of borrowing money, or
with respect to any financial assistance which they
might wish to receive from the Government by consent
of Parliament. But the directors having investigated
the question, did not find that they were in a position
which made it necessary that they should apply to Go-
vernment at present for any such assistance. (Hear.)
The present financial means of the East India Company
are ample. Their present difficulties, great and formid-
able as they undoubtedly ale, are not of a financial kind
Of course it is impossible to say how soon financial
exigencies may occur, but in the existing state of the
Eat India treasury we are informed, and we enter-
thin no doubt,' there are ample means of
meeting any demand likely to be made on the