The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

tutions do not give the Government the power of sweeping
away into our navy so great a proportion of our civil popu-
lation. That power the French Government possesses.
Our commercial seamen are scattered over every part of the
world ; when hostilities began, many of them would pro-
bably be at see, and many might go to France as prisoners
of war if taken by French frigates cruising in different parts
of the seas. I only point out what has been stated, because
I am glad the acknowledgment has been made that, in
point of fact, our navy, as far as wooden ships are concerned,
is in a satisfactory condition— (hear, hear)—that it is in the
relation to the French navy we ought to occupy. And I
think great credit is due to the right hon. baronet opposite
(Sir J. Pakington) and to the present Government that they
have taken the measures required to place it in that condi-
tion. (Hear, hear.) But there is one point in which our
navy is not in a satisfactory condition ; it is with regard to
iron ships. With the iron ships the French have already—
they will, when those now building are completed, have a
superiority in this point. We know the French Government
has recently ordered the construction of 10 vessels of the
same size and force as La Gloire. At present, then, we do not
stand in the same position as to iron ships as we do in wooden
vessels. But the house must not suppose that iron ships will
wholly supersede those of wood; we may depend upon it that
in case of war, wooden line-of• battle ships will play their
part, especially on distant stations. You cannot send the
iron ships to keep the sea for any length of time where they
cannot clean their bottoms of the incrustations and the vege-
table matter that ina f.,ede the steering and management of
the vessel. For this reason, in the Mediterranean France
has a great advantage. Her ships can go to Toulon and there
be put in proper condition, whereas our iron ships in the same
sea would have no port, except, perhaps, Malta, where any
repairs could be done. On all distant stations wooden ships,
especially frigates, will still be the kind of vessels required.
There seems, then, no ground for saying that, large as I
admit the demand is for the naval service of the country, it
is larger than the interest and safety of the country require.
(Cheers.) I am persuaded the country knows that. (Hear.)
When I am told that the country knows nothing on this
subject except what it is told from the Treasury Bench, I
say it is a mistake. (Hear.) The country knows more of
what passes in France than what it hears from those who
sit on this bench, or from those who send information from
Paris. The French make no secret of their preparations ;
but when some well-intentioned gentleman asks them if
they really mean to invade this country, if they really have
any hostile intention towards us, of course they say, not
the least in the world, their feeling is one of perfect sym-
pathy and friendship with us, and that all their prepara-
tions are only for their own self-advancement. But in this
country it is perfectly well knows what exertions have been
made by successive Governments of France to establish a
powerful and formidable navy ; and we also know that
France has an army six times as large as that of England.
(Hear.) France has an army of 600,000 men ; 400,000 are
actually under arms; and there are 200,000 men belonging
to different regiments, on temporary leave, and liable to be
called back to the ranks in the course of a fortnight. (Hear.)
And in estimating the number of men each country can

bring into action, for a particular purpose,we must not throw
the military establishment cf France quite out of the ques-
tion. For operations in the Channel, and crossing from one
shore to the other, soldiers would be almost as valuable as
sailors for manning the ships required for the purpose. How-
ever much, then, we may regret that our estimates are so
large, the house and the country must remember that the
magnitude of the expenditure is occasioned by changes and
improvements in the constructisn of ships. That, to a certain
extent, is a temporary increase. 'With regard to iron ships,
it was well stated by the hon, member for Sunderland on a
former occasion, that they do not require the same amount
of repair as wooden vessels, and that, though they cost
more at the outset, the expense of maintaining them is
less. But whatever the opinions expressed, no one has pro-
posed any reduction of the vote ; I therefore hope the
house wiil answer the expectations of the country, and give
the Government the means of maintaining the naval force
it thinks necessary. (Cheers.) The hon. member for Bir-
mingham seems to think there is some peculiar pleasure or
advantage to a Government in proposing a great amount
of expenditure. But if a Government could consult its
own wishes, I believe it would reduce everything it possi-
bly could reduce. A Government can have no interest or
advantage in proposing a large military and naval expendi-
ture. But on the responsibility of its position, that ren-
ders it a duty towards the country, every motive of a per-
sonal kind that can influence a Government would lead it
to propose as low an estimate as it believed compatible with
the safety and interest of the nation. (Cheers.)

Mr. CONINGHAM saw in the commercial treaty of Mat
year an emphatic assurance of the friendly disposition of
the French Emperor towards England.
The vote of 78,000 men, including 18,000 marines, was
then agreed to, as wore also votes of £3,122,580 for wages
and £1,328,259 for victuals.

Thci CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and
The house resumed.
RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH BILL.

Upon the motion for going into committee upon this bill,

Mr. KINNAIRD expressed his regret at the course the
Government had pursued upon this matter. No one could
reasonably doubt the validity of the contract, and it was the
first time in the history of this country, in a case where the
faith of the Government was distinctly pledged, that faith
had been broken with those who had advanced their money
upon a Government guarantee. The contract had been
drawn up by the Solicitor to the Treasury, and then the
Attorney-General had been- employed to pick a hole in a
contract thus prepared. The Government could hardly be
aware of the feeling that had been excited in the city by the
course they had taken, and he was convinced it would have
a serious effect in inducing capitalists to advance their
money in future upon Government guarantees.
Mr. AYRTON hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would be in his place when the bill was read a third time,
as the present position of affairs was not quite clear. The
effect of the bill would be to give to shareholders an an-
nuity for 48 years at the rate of 4f per cent. upon their
capital, with something added for the expenses of the com-
pany. According to the present rate of Consols, the share-
holders would be receiving something like £lOO,OOO more
than if, as provided under another article, they were repaid
their whole capital. It was the duty of the Government to
consider whether it would not be more for the benefit of the
nation to repay the capital and take possession of the tele•
graph, worthless as it might be at the bottom of the sea.

Mr. WYLD did not agree that the telegraph in' its pre-
sent position was worthless. He understood that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer intended to propose a committee to
inquire into the circumstances of the telegraph, and cer-
tainly both this country and India had a right to demand
that they should enjoy any benefit that might be derivable
from the money already expended. He was informed that
by the expenditure of £200,000 is was possible to restore
the telegraph to working order.
Mr. CONINGHAM reprobated the conduct of the Go-
vernment in evading responsibility by handing over this
question to a committee.

- Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that, whatever the original
agreement might have been, it was contingent on the sanc-
tion of Parliament. He should like to know was the atten-
tion of the House of Commons of the last Parliament called
to that agreement when the bill was under considera-
tion ?

Mr. F. PEEL said the relations between the Govern-
ment and the company would remain the same under
this bill as they had been before.
Mr. VANSITTART suggested that the company was
of no use now, and that no expense should be incurred for
directors.

Mr. DUNLOP added a few words of explanation in re-
spect of the course taken with the bill.
Tho bill then passed through committee.
On the motion of Sir G. LEWIS, the following members
were nominated the select committee on Parochial Assess-
ments Bill :—Sir G. Lewis, Sir W. Jolliffe, Mr. Villiers,
Mr. Cayley, Mr. Puller, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. Alderman
Salomons, Sir W. Miles, Mr. H. Bruce, Mr. A. Egerton,
Mr. L. Gower, Mr. Beach, Mr. Crossley, Mr. Humberstone,
and Sir J. Shelley—five to be the quorum.
The house adjourned at one o'clock.

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