The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-16 00:00:00

THE ITALIAN QUESTION.

The Marquis of NORMANBY gave notice that on Fri-
day,
the Ist of March, he intended to call the attention of
their lordships to the correspondence that had lately been
laid before their lordships by command of her Majesty.
THE NEW COURTS OF LAW.
Lord ST. LEONARDS, pursuant to notice, drew the
attention of the house to the report of the commissioners
of inquiry as to the expediency of building new law courts
on the same spot, and where the money is to come from,
with a view of preserving the funds arising from the in-
vestments of moneys belonging to the suitors of the Court of
Chancery for their benefit and better security, for which
purpose the moneys were laid out, subject to certain
charges, and for reducing the fees payable to the court by
such suitors, for which object the funds stand appropriated.
The question was one of very great importance; for the
adoption of the report would involve an expenditure of not
less than £1,400,000. When he held the office of Lord
Chancellor he had to provide accommodation for the Lord
Chancellor and the Lords Justices, and those courts had
answered their purpose very well. The Master of the
Rolls, whose court possessed every possible accommodation,
had a house adjoining his court, and near it was a magni-
ficent building for the deposit of the rolls, of which he was,
as his name denoted, the keeper. The Master of the Rolls,
when before the Commispion, had expressed his utter dis-
inclination to be removed from his present court and resi-
dence. It would be very inconvenient and improper that
the Master of the Rolls should not be near the place where
the rolls, of which he had the custody, were deposited. He
said he had every convenience that could be given to him
for the discharge of his official duties, and he objected to
being removed from his present locality. The Vice-Chan-
cellors were now three in number. The Vice-Chancellor
of England had a court built for him some time ago, which
had answered and still answered the purpose that was re-
quired for the administration of justice. He himself prac-
tised there a long time, and was able to say that it was well
adapted for the purpose for which it was built. There was,
therefore, no want of accommodation for the Vice-Chan-
cellor of England. The Lords Justices were also provided
for ; they had very good chambers, but they ought to be in
contiguity to their court. There were two other vice-
chancellors, and they were provided for as badly as pos-
sible. Two courts were built for them by the Society
of Lincoln's-inn at their own cost; but they were cramped
for size, and there certainly was a need of courts for those
two equity judges. Last session a bill was introduced to
provide a site, and the Society of Lincoln's-inn were willing
to advance the money to build the courts. They proposed
to lay out £lOO,OOO of their own money; and it was pro •
posed that out of the income of the suitors' fund, or the ge-
neral fund belonging to the suitors of the Court of Chancery,
there should be paid an annual rent to the society, which it
was estimated would amount to about £4,000, that fund
being already burdened with a yearly expenditure of £2,000
for Chambers. The plans might be carried into execution
in a twelvemonth ; and this was all that was required for
the proper administration of justice. The commissioners to
whom the subject had been referred had recommended that
a large site of land between Carey-street and the Strand
should be purchased as a site for the new law offices. The
locality contained 370 houses; it was densely populated;
and it was usual, when Parliament took such a site, to pro-
vide for the displaced population. This, however, the com-
missioners had not provided for. The amount of £675;000
would be *required to pay for the old buildings, and exactly
the same sum to erect the new ones. He believed the Cen-
tral Criminal Ct,urt was intended to remain where it was,
because the practitioners there objected to its removal. The
Insolvent Court also was to remain, so that the impression
must not go abroad that there was to be a perfect concentra-
tion. There was, however, another court, that of the Com-
missioners in Lunacy, which he hoped would not be re-
moved. It was frequented by many suitors whose mental
and physical condition deserved the greatest consideration,
and he trusted their interests would be duly studied. Then
as to the financial part of the scheme, it was proposed that
£1,400,000 should be raised by a seven years' charge
upon the suitors' fee fund. But seven years seemed an
unreasonable time to wait for the raising of a sum
of £1,400,000, when another scheme which had been
proposed might be accomplished in one year. Supposing
new courts to be provided for the suitors in equity in Lin-
oln's-inn, a few steps across Carey-street would be all that
was necessary to communicate with the new law courts ;
thus also all exposure to the noise and turmoil of the Strand
would be avoided. He did not find fault with any general
scheme for the concentration of the courts ; but into the
general question he would not now enter. All he would say
was, that those persons who believed that concentration
would be all gain were mistaken. There was a debtor side
of the account, and in some respects a great loss would be
incurred by bringing all the courts together. Great stress
was laid upon the argument that if the courts were concen-
trated judges would be able frequently to communicate with
each other. But in the course of the five years during
which he presided as Chancellor in Ireland, where the
courts were all assembled together, and there was but one
legal society, he never remembered to have had the slightest
communication with any other court, nor did any other
judge consult with him. With regard to the evidence in
favour of the scheme, he believed that its principal pro-
moters were the Incorporated Society of Solicitors, in Chan-
cery-lane, and he believed it was a matter of the greatest
importance to them, being as they were great houses of
agency for country solicitors. It was proposed, however,
that £1,400,000 should be taken from the suitors' fee fund.
He thought he should be able to show their lordships that
without doubt the fund in question belonged wholly to the
suitors in the Court of Chancery. He could also show to
their lordships that it had always been dealt with as a fund
which belonged to them, and that the proceeds of the whole
fund had, with a small exception, been already appropriated
by Parliament, The income of the fated was barely more
than enough to answer the charges that had been fixed
upon it by Parliament. Now the promoters did not ven-
ture to ask for this large sum by direct taxation ; so they
proposed to take it from the suitors' fee fund, and if any
loss was incurred, to throw such loss upon the consoli-
dated fund. So that indirectly a system of public taxa-
tion was adopted. They proposed first of all to take the
money from a particular :source, and then to apply to the
consolidated fund for its recoupment. With regard
to the suitors' fee fund, he must beg to remind their lord-
shills that the origin of this fund dated from the year 1726.
Before that time the funds of the Court of Chancery had
been, paid to the masters of the court, and it was found that
these officers, having been entrusted with the money of
others, had misappropriated and wasted the funds of the
suitors. Lord Macclesfield, as their lordships would remem-
ber, was fined £30,000. This sum, with accumulations of
interest, reached £51,000 ; and that sum, together with
duties imposed by Parliament, made up the deficiency.
Subsequently an officer was appointed in lieu of the masters,
nailed the A.ccountant-Generalof the Court of Chancery, and
all moneys paid in by the suitors were directed to be placed
to his account, It seemed the gentlemen who advocated this
change were scarcely aware of the extreme complication of
that account. At the Bank also there was a very complex
system of accounts, where the funds of all the suitors were
entered. If that account were disturbed, one of the beat sys-
tems ever constructed for the benefit of the suitor would be
destroyed. At that moment the funds in the Court of Chan-
cery amounted to 40 millions of money. He recollected
upon one occasion, when he was first in the House of Corn-
mows, hearing a very amiable and animated conversation be-
tween the then Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr, Bar-
ing, in which it was proposed to take these 40 millions of
money, invest in the funds, and give the suitors 3 per cent.
for their money. It would amount to confiscation, and the
confidence of every suitor in the court would be shaken at
once. Since that time, though various Chancellors of the
Exchequer had made inquiries about the fund, there had
been no attempt to interfere with it. The first time any por-
tion of the money had been appropriated was by an act of
the 12th of Geo. 11., when a portion of the fund was invested
to pay the salary of the Accountant-General ; but it was
stated in the very title of that act that the object of the step
was for "the ease of the suitors." The same principle had
continued to be acted upon to the present time; and so far
from regarding the suitors' fund as applicable to any pur-
Poite to which the Chanceller of the Exchequer might desire
to devote it, the salaries of the Chancery judges had actually
been transferred from it to the Consolidated Fund. Power
was given to the Lord Chancellor by orders from time to
time to e.bolish or reduce existing fees, and to substitute
others for them, and in 1854 he (Lord St. Leonards) made
changes which would now be equivalent to reducing the
fees payable by, the suitors by £40,000 a year—a relief
which, if:capitaii,ed
wouldfrepresent no less than £551,000.
At the present timelhe..ftelev:ndchhad only a margin of £2,000
a year over the
in their ZpePerndt,i
said
that in
on it. The com-
mittee,lieidn time past the suitors'
fee fund was exclusively a
suitors, but that new and variPaPriedede for the benefit of the
exigencies had arisen.
What were these new and v
Waiegreenctoies ? Why, that
seven acres of compact
abnduilndiengew
courtsto
bebere taken down,
the Suitors,
the space thrown open,
The fund, however, belonged exclusively to inters The
; and:it would 'be
Lord Chancellor was ag,reat public officer, hoidlitt
sae'redi
these funds for the benefit of the suitors
highly improper that they should be applied to any other
The noble and learned lord concluded by thank.
urP4se..
ing their lordships for the attention they had given to his
remarks.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the opinions of
his noble and learned friend were entitled to the greatest
weight, but he thought he had made a mistake in bringing

the subject prematurely before the house. It had for years
been notorious that the courts for the administration of
justice in this country were inadequate in their ccommo-
dation ; and so strongly did the Earl of Der y feel this
when he was in office4hat he issued a comm • sion toin-
quire into the subject. That commission, in hich the dif-
ferent interests were ably represented, con sted of Sir J.
Coleridge, Vice-Chancellor Page Wood, Si G. C. Lewis,
Bart., Dr. Phillimore, and Mr. J. Young, and they unani-
mously concurred in the opinion that it was necessary there
should be new courts, that they should be-concentrated on
the site which had been so much criticised by the noble
and learned lord, and that the suitors' fund might be legi-
timately applied towards the expense of their construction.
if the report of the commission had been made before the
Earl of Derby left office, without the smallest doubt he
would have directed a bill to be brought into Parliament
for the purpose of carrying its recommendations into effect.
He (the Lord Chancellor) had to announce on the part of
the Government to which he belonged, that though the
measure was originated by Lord Derby's Government, they
were most anxious to follow in his footsteps in this respect,
and they bad prepared a bill on the subject which would be
immediately brought into the House of Commons. His
noble and learned friend was quite wrong in supposing that
-no plans or estimates had been prepared. All those had
been prepared, the usual notices had been served, and all
the other preliminary steps taken ; and in the course of a
few days the bill would, with the permission of the House
of Commons, be introduced, unless the threatened inj unc-
tion with regard to the suitors' fee fund prevailed. (Hear)
His noble and learned friend need not be under any misap-
prehension that he would not have ample opportunities for
discussing the measure. On the present occasion he
would abstain from entering into details in regard to
the proposed plan. He would only now say that he
regretted leaving Westminster-hall, to which he had the
warmest attachment, but their departure had become
absolutely necessary. Westminster-hall answered the pur-
poses of a palace of justice most admirably when, as in the
time of the Plantagenets, they had only four courts sitting,
but now, from the increase of population and wealth in the
country, they had no less than four other courts. He agreed
entirely with the commissioners that it was most desirable
that the courts of equity and common law should be concen-
trated upon one spot. At present they were dissevered by
great distances, and the judges and counsel practising in
them seldom had any opportunity of coming in contact with
each other. There would, by such an arrangement, be a
clear saving of time and expense to all concerned in the ad-
ministration of justice. The commissioners had selected the
area to which the noble and learned lord had referred, and
he believed that if the plan were completed it would be most
conducive to the health and ornament of the metropolis.
The Lord Chancellor then entered into some details respect-
ing the suitors' fund, and repeated that he thought it might
be legitimately applied to the building of the proposed courts.
Here was a large sum of money which had been brought
into the Court of Chancery, to be retained in the custody of
the court, and was there any harm in applying any profit
that might be derived from so retaining it to erect a build-
ing for the court to sit in ? He believed that next to having
honest, intelligent, and learned judges it was essential there
should be proper offices for the court. As for lowering the
fees, they had already been lowered, and were very mode-
rate now ; but as for the proposal to abolish them altogether,
he must say, however unpopular might be the declaration,
that he thought it would be unjust to the taxpayer to call
on the State to defray all the cost of litigation. He could
not see, then, who was injured, or who had a right to com-
plain of the intended arrangement; but he would reserve
anything more to be said about it till the bill should come
regularly before their lordships' house.
Lord CRANWORTH said that although this was not a
discussion that could lead to any result, he must say a few
words. He could not agree with the noble and learned lord
opposite, who thought that the whole of the suitors' fee
fund was one which the state had no right to deal with.
No doubt, whenever the suitors individually claimed
repayment, the State was bound to repay it, and to sell
stock for that purpose ; but the suitors were not a corpora-
tion. Every individual suitor had a right to have his own
money delivered to him, but as a body they had no claim.
These funds were the accumulations of a century and a
half, and did not belong to any existing suitor. If a great
defalcation occurred in them, as happened once in the last
century, the State would have to make it good by taxation,
as the court was but the agent of the State in taking charge
of this money. On the other hand, though he admitted
the right of the State to apply the interest of the fund to
the building of the new courts, he did not see the advantage
of it, because the interest 'was all appropriated by Act of
Parliament, so that there would be a eharge on the conso-
lidated fund to that amount. He concurred in thinking
that the erection of the new courts of law, on the plan de-
signed, was a very desirable object, but he would express
no opinion as to whether that object was worth the cost.
The discussion then terminated, and their lordships ad.
journed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The standing orders were declared to have been com-
plied with in the case of a number of railway and other bills,
and in the case of several others, that they had not been
complied with.

The following bills were read a second time :—Chard
and Taunton Railway ; Cork and Macroom Direct Rail-
way; Kilrush and Kilkee Railway and Poulnasherry
Reclamation; Mold and Denbigh Junction Railway ;
North-Eastern and Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Carlisle
Railway Companies Amalgamation; Shirley Railway ;
Southampton and Netley Railway; Wallasey Improve-
ment; Whitehaven, Cleator, and Egremont Railway;
and Workington Tidal Basin and Railway.
Several private bills were also read a first time.
PETITIONS.

Petitions were presented against the unconditional aboli-
tion of church-rates ; from the wine merchants of Notting-
ham against the present mode of assessing the wine duties ;
six from, Norwich praying that a new Reform Bill may be
passed without delay ; for the new census being taken ac-
cording to counties, and not according to registration
counties ; by Mr. Bright from the Town Council of Rock-
dale in favour of an amendment of the bankruptcy laws, &c.