The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-19 00:00:00

THE CHINA WAR.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, what proportion of the vote of credit (£3,800,000)
taken for the expense of the China War had been actually
expended and paid out of the Exchequer ; what proportion
was estimated to be still payable out of the balances of the
Exchequer in respect of expenditure chargeable to that
vote; whither it was intended to surrender the right of
drawing from the Exchequer any, and, if any,what portion
of the sum so voted before applying to Parliament for a
further vote of credit; and, whether he can explain
to the house why a, further vote of credit, to
the am ount of £1,000,000, is likely to be required, when
there was an unexpected surplus, approaching £BOO,OOO, on
the vote taken last. year ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it would be difficult to give an accurate answer to the last
part of the question without entering into the whole ques-
tion of votes of credit. As far as the practicable object
was concerned, he would make a short statement. With
regard to the first part of the question, the amount ex-
pended of the vote taken for the China war, it was stated
by him on 3londay when bringing forward the budget, and
it was shown in the accounts published this morning. The
portion to be paid would come out of the balance in the Ex-
chequer. The right hon. gentleman then entered into
Come details explanatory of his reply.

FORTIFICATIONS, &c.
Sir F. SMITH asked the Under Secretary for War if
any steps had been taken towards forming a central depot
• for the War Department stores ; and, if so, whether it
was t) be a mere appendage to Woolwich Arsenal, or
whether any manufacturing operations are to be carried on
there ; and, if any works provided fer in the vote taken in
August last for fortifications have been commenced ; and if
it is now contemplated not to construct some of the works
that had been determined upon ? He hoped the
Government would not proceed with the fortifications
at prevent until the capabilities of the iron ships were more
(4e
4_aaltieently tested, for if vessels shot-proof entered the Solent
fortifications would be of no use.
T‘,l?
rs,,
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Le
eStirnatas moved that the consideration of these
lie comoaineatlid be deferred with a view to their revision.
of the service in
of the increase in the medical staff
on
made in horse cavalry the
Var• office, when reductions were
'objectionable o and horse artillery, which was
of the army, It: ground that it affected the efficiency
£2,000,000 for fortificavoln not consider that the vote of
to the amount of 420,04'97: required, and he objected
428,000 more than was voted forTthlperiments, which was
considered it was not necessary awaketpose last year. He
much of a permanent institutionnd that it
camp so
to compel officers and privates, many
oft
withwas a hardship
several years is the colonies, to remain]n that had spent
endure the privations which it necessarily in,„B:ciamP and
Other
departments of the military service were ".
in an un-
satisfactory condition with reference to expenditure,
and he thought the army ought to be better fed and
clothed for the money voted for that] purpose. Re eon.
eluded by expreesing his opinion that their estimates maxi. ,
bited pitiful parsimony or profuse profligacy, and that they
Would consult the wishes of tho C42ll4trY VA4CaYOUrilag

to reduce the military expenditure, of which the country
was heartily sick.
Mr. T. G. BARING said that the arguments of the hon.
and gallant member who had last addressed the house did
not prove the advisability of postponing these estimates,
but went to prove that it would be desirable to go
into committee, when the different items to which.
he alluded to could be fully discussed. With
respect to the military hospitals, the increase in the
expenditure was rendered necessary to provide for the com-
fort of the soldiers, and the increase for barracks was caused
by a desire to carry out that object also. He then defended
the votes generally and expressed a hope that the house
would not delay going into committee, when all the
details to which the hon. and gallant member alluded to
could be fully considered.
Col. DUNNE said no doubt it would be more conve-
nient for the hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) to go into com-
mittee than to answer in a satisfactory manner. He com-
plained of the expenditure for military purposes within
the last few years, and contended that the house should
have received full information with reference to the diffe-
rent items in the army estimates, but that infor-
mation was more meagre than ever. He hoped
the house would not grant these estimates until
they received the information that was necessary to
show that the requisite care had been exercised in regard
to these items.

Mr. B. OSBORNE was pleased that this subject was
brought forward, and strongly censured the system
of the camp at Aldershot. That camp he re-

garded as the most demoralising and useless
object for which public money had ever been
voted, and it was nothing more than a preparatory school
for making indifferent brigadiers. He thought, however,
that these questions would be better discussed in com-
mittee.

Col. NORTH could not agree with his bon. and gallant

friend (Mr. Osborne) that Aldershot produced only indif-
ferent brigadier-generals. On the contrary, they had al-
ways shown their gallantry and done their duty equally as
well as any other officers in the world. (Hear.)
Col. LINDSAY observed that no one who took part in

the operations at Aldershott could do so without adding to
the information he had before. He did not think it was at
all fair to say that Aldershott produced only indifferent
brigadiers. The gallant officer who commanded at the camp
was a man of great eminence in his profession, and the bri-
gadiers who served under him did their work excellently
well. He did not think it was fair to mix up the officers at
Aldershott with what his hon. and gallant friend termed
the jobbery of erecting the camp. He did not believe, how-
ever, that camp was formed with foresight, and he had not
the slightest doubt that the large sum of money expended
upon it might have been much better expended in other
ways. (Hear.)

Col. GILPIN said he had occupied the new barracks at
&ldershott. Whether they were built on an economical
principle or not he could not say, but the barracks for the
men were the best he ever knew—much better than those
for the officers, and he believed if the government had
searched England through they could not have obtained a
better position for the lurpose.
Mr. MQNSELL did not wish to prolong this discussion,
but he wished to ask whether it was not possible upon
these estimates to save a considerable sum of money ? The
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other even-
ing was loudly cheered, particularly from these (the Liberal)
benches, but now, when this question came before the
house in a practical shape, some members of the Govern-
ment absented themselves from the house. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition benches.) In comparing the esti-
mates for 1853-4 with the present estimates, he found that
the number of men voted for the British army at the
former period was 119,181 men ; for the present year it was
146,055 men. The charges for the staff in 1853-4 were
£175,895; this year they were £326,898. The next point
to which he wished to call attention was the article of for-
age. In 1853-4 the Government had to provide for 9,450
horses ; this year they had to provide for 13,642 horses. He
believed there was no great difference between the price of
forage at the two periods, and yet in 185:3-54 they paid
£269,165, while in the present year a vote was asked for
£482,392. (Hear.) With respect to fuel and light, he thought
the house had a right to expect some reduction, because
they were told that the introduction of gas and cooking
stoves would lower the expense, which in 1853-54 was
£116,220, and yet in the present estimates they were asked
to vote £482,392. (Hear.) There were next the charges for
hospital furniture, and many other articles, with which he
would not weary the house ; but he thought he had estab-
lished the fact that there appeared to be a most dispropor-
tionate increase in our estimates. (Hear.) In comparing our
estimates with those for the French army he had eliminated
the difference of conscription and the difference of the two
military systems, and he found the difference as to the ex-
pense of the two armies to be this—that our estimates for
the coat of 146,000 men were £14,066,000, while the cost of
tho French army of 400,000 men was about £14,000,000.
Deducting from our estimates for all pay, allowances, and
non-effective men, £7,674,180, there remained £6,992,000 ;
deducting for stores, ammunition, and guns, a further sum
of £1,200,000, there remained £5,792,000. While allowing
for similar deductions in the French establishments, the
remaining charge might be placed at about £4,000,000.
Here then they had the fact that for a similar class of
charges for which the French, with an army of 400,000 men,
spent about £4,600,000, this country, with an army of only
146,000 men, spent £5,500,000. If the house proceeded in
such a wild expenditure they might depend ui2on it that
the country would rise up against them. (Hear.)
Gen, PEEL hoped his hon. and gallant friend (Col. Dick-
son) would not divide the house on his motion. The vote for

fortifications had nothing t 3 do with these estimates, and
it would not be in the power of the Under Secretary for

War to give explanations about them. His hon. and gal-
lant friend, in his calculations, had been unmindful of the
increase of the army from 1854 to the present time of 75 to
100 per cent., and his hon. and gallant friend had reckoned
for the whole number of men upon the estimate, whereas
nearly 13,000 of those men were never raised at all, and he
had also forgotten that at that time the commissariat was
not under the War-office; it was under the Treasury.
There was a difference in the amount of the stoppage of the
daily pay which, instead of being 6d., was only 41d. per
day. Hon. members had pointed out where they thought
these estimates were too large, but no one had pointed out
that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) proposed to take
money enough for the purpose he required. It was his
(Gen. Peel's) misfortune to be obliged to point out where the
estimates might be considered too great. He said that on
the Ist of April they would have 3,000 men more than they
had voted money to pay for. He had moved for a return of
the number of men on April 1, and he found the number of
effective men on that day was 145,862, while the number to
be voted was 146,041, so that only 182 men were needed to
complete the establishment. The number of men to be
voted for India was 66,625, and the number of men actually
in India was 82,200, so that there was an excess of 15,575
men for India. The Under-Secretary for War had pointed
out that reductions were to take place to the extent of five
regiments of infantry and one regiment of cavalry. Was
that reduction to tako place on the Indian establishment ?
Mr. T. G. BARING said the strength of the regiments in
China would be reduced to the peace establishment.
Gen. PEEL said the strength of regiments in India was
already in excess of their proper number by 10,000 men.
He wanted to know how the reduction was to take place.
He lid not see how they were to reduce the number of men
in India and dispose of the men. They must either dis-
charge them or wait till they were absorbed, and that would
take some time. If there were any India troops in China
after April 1 they would entail their expenses for Indian
pay and allowances. Was that expense to bo met out of
the additional vote of credit asked for by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer for the next financial year ? He hoped
that when they came to specific votes the Under-Secretary
for War weuld be able to afford full explanations on this
subject.

Viscount PALMERSTON said the ccurse pursued by
hon. gentlemen was inconvenient, unless their object was to
ask questions and to make observations to which there could
Le neither refutation nor reply. The usual course of pro-
ceeding upon army estimates had been founded upon good
sense, and was well adapted to the convenience of the house.
The Speaker was moved out of the chair, and the house
went into committee. When in committee any number of
questions might be put by any speaker, and his hon. friend
the Under-Secretary of State might rise and answer them
any number of times without violating the orders of the
house. The matters which were to be discussed were
divided into a great number of heads, and were taken one
after the other, so that each subject might be kept separate
and distinct. On this occasion, however, members had got
up and discussed the details of votes which were ranged
under two or three and twenty different heads; and when
_ _ _

hie hon. friend had once spoken, he could answer no further
questions that might be put to him. It followed, therefore,
that all the observations which had been made, so far as
answer, refutation, or explanation went, were of no practical

utility whatever. He trust:A that the hon. member would
not press his motion, but would allow the house to go into
committee, when all these questions might be answered in
committee with the votes to which th_y respectively re-
ferred. (Hear, hear.) He (the noble lord) should have
confined himself to that request, had it not been for what
had fallen from the member for Liskeard (Mr. B.Osborne).
His hon. friend was very fond of sweeping assertions, and
had a most ample vocabulary of strong words. Everything
that he disapproved of was a job. (Hear, hear, from Mr.
Osborne, and laughter.) Everything that he did not like was
absurd, ridiculous, foolish, and preposterous ; but judging
from the military opinions which he had given that even-
ing, he (the noble lord) must congratulate the country-
that ita defchces did not depend upon his hon. friend's
knowledge or decision. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman said,
" Look at that extravagant job at Aldershot." (Hear, hear,
from Mr. Osborne.) He (Lord Palmerston) denied that it
was ajob at all. (Hear.) On the contrary, he asserted that
there never was a wiser application of public money, er a
more advantageous or economical one. It was formerly one
of the great wants of the British army, that it had no place
where any large number of men could be assembled for the
_purpose of learning combined movements. That feeling was
so strongly impressed on the mind of the Government, that
before Aldershot was purchased Chobham was taken. Now,
Chobham was very expensive, and a large sum had to be
iPwri. in compensation to the owners of the crown rights,
were ihterfered with by Oa fmnliticit 9f thQ Gitn3l3.'