The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-26 00:00:00

gUN, LONI3ON, TUI SDAY 4.44„ 1.4] Etj N
2 MA V' .0.6

an army. And therefore my hon. friend the member for
Lambeth is entirely mistaken in depreciating the value

obliged when the war broke out to have recourse, not
only to our own trade, but to manufacturers of arms in
Belgium and America. Very objectionable in principle
this no doubt way, but at the same time necessity has no
law, and we had to choose between leaving the army
with their old Brown Bass, which everybody hcliniti ed to
be an inferior weapon, or to go abroad to procure pro-
per weapons for our troops. Even now, with all the
contracts which have been fulfilled, and those which
are in course of execution, we shall only be able to
furnish a few Enfield rifles to the troops of the line; there
will still be the militiamen to be armed with them; and I

of that 0:4 ahlishrnent at Aldershott. Whatever may have
been the cost, I ,ay that the money has been economi-
cally laid out. (hear.) It has been laid out with the
greatest advantage to the public, that I do trust that
nothing will ever pass in this house which will in-
terfere with the continued benefit that Aldershott will

afford to the public by being, as it is intended, the place
where, between the months of April and October, con-
siderable bodies of troops shall be collectad to pet form
those movements and evolutions which they would have

to perform if they were called upon for active service
either at home or abroad. (sear, hear.) There were
other points in which our army was deficient, and those
deficiencies were greatly and severely felt at the outset
of the late war. Ar d, by the by, I may say that even
the practice in the late war was not a practice particu-
larly calculated to instruct officers in great field move,
ments, because our army was stationary during the
greater part of the time. It was not like a war carried
on in the interior of a country with army movements
and marches over a great surface of ground. But, in the
first place, there was a great want of that which is es-
sential to the movements of an army—namely, a field
train, or what used to be called a waggon corps—men
trained to attend to the sick and to the different things

apprehend this force ought to have as good a weapon as
the soldiers of the lice. There ought also to be a certain

quantity of muskets in store to be ready for emergencies;
besides which there is an annual consumption which re-

quires to be supplied ; and if we were ever called upon
to defend ourselves what would the peoplecf this eoun-

try say if, offering themselves in hundreds and thou-
sands as volunteers, we had nothing but broomsticks to

place in their hands. (Laughter.) We must, then, have
a certain stun of small arm% in hand, and that is the
___

object the Government has in view., Wed, then, there
is the establishment at Wool ivich, which is really deserv-

ing of a visit from any gentleman who takes an interest
in these things. There is a perfection of machinery, a
perfection of ingenuity, a successful application of science
to practical purposes which must afford the greatest
pleasure to anybody who can understand these things
and take an interest in them ' • and the advantage of
this establishment at Woolwich during the list war can
hardly be exaggerated. (Hear.) If we had not had
there men of great talent and machinery of great power
it would have been impossible to have furnished the

connected with the supplies of an army. There was
great want of a hospital staff, men practised in hospitals
and conversant with the methods of treating the
sick. These things have been remedied. By the pre-

sent estimates it will be seen that two new corps
have been formed—one a field train and the other a hos-

pital staff—composed of men trained to attend on the
sick in hospitals. The committee will see that with re-
gard to numbers there is an increase of about 6,000 over
the numbers of the year 1853-4. That increase arises
principa'ly from the creation of these new corps, the
augmentation of the artillery, and the employment of
those supernumeraries who were appointed during the
late war, and who might have been reduced, but whom
the Government thought it would be hard to reduce. We
determined therefore to keep them on full pay. The
Commander-in-Chief willingly agreed to that arrange-
ment at a sacrifice of that patronage to which some
people think, he attaches so much importance. We
thought it better to retain as supernumeraries a great
portion of the men who were about the establishment on
full pay than discharge them at once and have to replace
them afterwards by recruiting. The general wear and,
tear of the army may bereckoned at about 12,000 men—
includingdischarges, deaths, and other causes of decrease
—and we thought it better to retain efficient men as
supernumeraries than discharge them, and then have
to go to the expense of raising other men. Then,
I think it will be seen that the increase of expense, so far
as the land force is concerned, -arises from these super-
numeraries, officers and men, the augmentation of the
artillery, the field train, and also the hospital staff.
Now, considering how much modern war turns upon
artillery service, I think the house will be of opinion
that it was not bad economy or bad foresight on the
part of her Majesty's Government to augment to a cer-
tain extent the' artillery force of our army. (Cheers.)
At the beginning of the last war we could not have put
into the field 50 pieces of artillery, and to judge by com-
parison what that amount is it may be well said that
when the Russian army entered Hungary to assist the
Austrians to put down the Hungarians they brought
into the field 660 pieces of field rrtillery. By the aug-
mentation of oug artillery I think that we could put well
into the field, instead of 50 pieces, 140. I do not think that
the house will be of opinion that that is a greater amount
than is necessary. The total increase of charge upon
the land force in the estimates, as compared will the
year 1853-4, the last year before the war, is 600,0001,
odd, a charge temporary in its nature, partly arising
from these supernumeraries, and partly but mainly from
those augmentations that I have mentioned. There is
ne increase in the infantry of the line. There is, in
point of fact, a slight diminution of about 120 men.
There is a slight increase in the cavalry. There is an in-
crease in the engineers, and also in the artillery. Now
I think that it is not very material, within certain limits,
what is the amount of your infantry force. It should,
of course, always be sufficient for the service of the year.
Ail infantry man can be made (I trust that the military
officers in the house will excuse me If I appear to make
too light of the time necessary for the instruction of an
infantry man) in a few months, and by recent results I
should say even in a few weeks. At all events an in-
fantry may be rendered available for service in a very
short time. A cavalry man requires a longer training,
because not only have you to teach him what he him-
st if has to do, but how a horse should be treated,
and what it has to do. A double instruction is
thus necessary iu the case of the cavalry man, and that,
therefore, is a reason why you should in time of peace
increase your cavalry force rather beyond what, perhaps,
might otherwise be considered necessary. Tae increase
now proposed is entirely in dismounted men, and not in
the number of horses. These dismounted men, however,
will all be drilled to horse exercise, so that if it were
necessary to render theeregiment more efficient it would
be only requisite to buy an additional number of horses
and mount your men upon them. Then the artillery is a
corps which requires great practice and instruction. An
inexperienced artilleryman is of very little value, and un-
less you have a good corps of artillery depend upon it
your army will he very inefficient in the field. (Hear.)
N, xt come the Engineers, and that of all corps is one
which requires most scientific knowledge, longest train-
ing, and tee greatest amount i,f skill, ex-erienee, and in-
struction. The proposed increase of 1,100 men to the En-
gineers is, therefore, one wed deserving the approbation
of the house. The total increase in respect to numbers is
6,917 ; the increase of charge is 636,0001., part of which
is temporary. These estimates, in fact, must be considered
as estimates of transition, for, as I shall have to state
very briefly (leaving the details to Le treated by my hon.
friend), there is an increase in other items, which arises
out of contracts made during the war and not yet exe-
cuted, but which must be completed and paid for, as well
as out of works, which will not, it is hoped, occur again to
the same extent in future years. Independently, how-
, ever, of having a force sufficient for the defence of the
country, there is another consideration which has of late
years been much d welt upon and much forced upon public
attention, but which for a considerable time did not suffi-
ciently attract the notice either of Government or of the
country—l mean the necessity of defensive works for the
protection of your dockyards and commercial ports, and
for the protection also of such points as Dover, which
may be said to be the key to the southern coast of Eng-
land. (Hear.) These works were for many years almost
entirely neglected. Of late years more attention has been
paid to them ; from tlme to tune annual sums of money
have been voted for the completion of such works, and
thus the object in view has, to a certain extent, been ac-
complished. But Portsmouth and Plymouth may now be
said to be unassailable from the sea side, but they both I
require additional fortification on the land side. Dover
is becoming a fortress of considerable strength. That
place is certainly of the utmost importance, because if
the enemy were to get possession of Dover, with its har-
bour and the facilities it would offer for their landing,
this would of course be a very inconvenient position for
them to occupy. (Laughter.) It is therefore obviously
of the greatest importance that Dover should be
placed in a situation which would enable it to defend
itself if attacked until assistance and support could
arrive. It is necessary also to impress upon the
house the high importance of protecting the dock-
yards—our great arsenals at Portsmouth, Plymouth,
Sheerness, and Pembroke—against the attacks of a
small army landing in the neighbourhood and ,shel.
ling them on the land side, because if your naval
resources in these dockyards were destroyed there would
be at once an end to your naval superiority, and you
would be left comparatively. defenceless. These, sir, are
matters of the utmost importance, which for several
years past have seriously occupied the attention of her
Majesty's Government, and my right hon. friend Sir J.
Graham knows well (because he entered heartily and
constantly into these deliberations when he was a teem-
Ler of the Government) the importance of this subject ;
he is aware that what has been done has not been use-
less, and that further application of the same means is
required to accomplish the object we have in view.
Tuere is another item of expense which also belongs to
the improved notions of the present day—l mean that
connected with our barracks. In former times it was
too much the habit to consider the soldier as a mere
animal—(hear)---to carry a musket during peace and to
shoot and be shot at in time of war. (Hear, hear.) Too
little attention was paid to his moral and intellectual
wellbeing, or to his comforts as a man, whether single or
married. The attention of Government has been
properly and useful'y called by Parliament of late years
to the necessity of better arrangements for tne decent
and comfortable habitation of soldiers in barracks at
home. Such arrangements, however, are attended with
considerable expense. When you have to provide for
married men separate from the rest of their comrades ;
when you have to build places for their recreation, read-
ing-rooms, and libraries, all these things require great
addition to what used to be considered a tolerable bar-
rack ; and the construction of barracks upon new prin-
ciples, as well as the alteration of old ones in conformity
with those principles, necessarily increases the annual
charge under this head. It is a'so very desirable that
as far as possible the troops at home should be lodged in
barracks. (Hear.) It is better for them as soldiers ;
it eases the civil population from that which is felt as a
burden—(hear)—it contributes to the steadiness of the
men) to their moral habits, and is in all respects theie-
fore a most desirable arrangement. (Hear.) But then,
again, these arrangements cannot be effected without a
considerable expenditUre, and if the house there-
fore sees an increase under the head of " barracks," as
compared with the expenditure of former years, I trust
it will feel that this is really a sacrifice necessary for the
accomplishment of objects which everybody admits to be
most desirable, and which it is the duty of Parliament,
as far as it can, to carry into effect. (Hear.) Then
there is in the military departments a small increase,
which may be the subject of diminution in a future
year. The whole of the military departments are now
brought under the Secretary for War, who is, as my
hoe. friend has stated, responsible for all'the expendi-
ture ; and a great advantage to the service has arisen
from the concentration of the Army, the Ordnance, and
the Commissariat. In the manufacturing establishments
there will be found an increase of 57,0001. as compared
with the expenditure 'of 1553. Now, I am quite
aware of the jealousy with which those who represent
the private manufacturers of arms regard the manu-
facturing establishments of the Crown. But I can
assure the hon. gentlemen the members for Warwick-
shire that the Government never contemplated having
establishments of this kind sufficient in magnitude to dis-
pense with the employment of the trade. Such a thing
would be out of the question. There is a great advantage
in the possession by the Government of manufactories
carried on under their superintendence,where experiments
Can be made, and where standards can be used with
which to• compare the works or private traders ; .but it
would be absurd to suppose that any Government estab-
lishments could be upon such a scale as to supply the en-
tire wants of the army with regard to muskets. We were

quantity of ammunition and projectiles which were neces-
sary to carry on the war in the Crimea. Among other
things, I may mention that Capt. Boxer, one of the dis-
tinguished officers in that establishment, invented a
method of exploding a shell by a well-regulated fuse,
which produced the greatest possible improvement in
that weapon of war. Whereas, before, shells used to
explode ne man could tell when or where—sometimes on
issuing from the mortar, sometimes in mid-air, sometimes
not when they hit their object; by the fuse which Capt.

Boxer invented the utmost precision was attained as to the
txplosiort of the shell at the very point at wiiich it was
desirable it should burst. There is also a manufactory
for iron and brass ordnanse, which is scarcely of less

importance than the manufactory of small arms.
The amount taken this year is comparatively
small, but we have made this year as large a number
of iron guns as it wilt be possible to make carriages for.
The great improvement which has taken place in the
calibre of guns, both by sea and land, has entirely put
out of the question the small pieces of ordnance which
were thought sufficient in former years to arm our yes.
sele and defend our forts. It is absolutely necessary that

both our floating batteries and batteries on shore should
be armed with guns equal to any which can be brought
against them. In the wages of artificers there is, of
course, a proportionate increase. With regard to the
clothing of the army, there is a small increase of 3,7831.
The hon. gentleman the member for Lambeth charac-
terised the change which had lately been made in regard
to the clothing of the army, but I think that change has
been productive of great benefit. Formerly a certain
sum—so much per man—was voted annually for
clothing the troops, which was banded to the colonel of
each regimeni. He provided an army clothier to clothe
the men, and the surplus which remained after his
charges were paid was the profit of thecolonel. Of course
it was the the interest of the clothier, and of the colonel
too, but I know that that was not an object which was
looked to—to make the clothing pass muster as nar-
rowly as possible. Now, an allowance is made to the
colonels, in addition to their pay, in lieu of their clothing
emoluments, ant the clothing is provided by the
War Department. I am enabled to say that the clothing
now supplied is of imcomparably better material, while
the expense to the public is very much the same. In the
items of provisions, forage, and matters of that sort,
there is, of course, an increase, depending on the num-
ber of the troops and the price of provisions. With re-
gard to warlike stores there is a slight increase as com-
pared with .the year 1852, owing to contracts made
during the war not yet fulfilled, which the Government
are compelled to pay for when the articles are delivered.
With regard to fortifications and barrack accommoda-
tion, there is an increase on the whole of 242,0001.
These charges arise out of the considerations which I
have mentioned as connected with the defence of the
country. They comprise certain works at Portsmouth, in
the Channel Islands, at Dover, and a certain sum is
taken for continuing works at some of the principal com-
mercial harbours in the country. There is another object
which has attracted, and most deservingly attracted, the
attention of the house,—l mean the provision for the
education of the officers of the army. (11,ear.) It is quite
obvious that, whatever may be the courage of your offi-
cers, and whatever the bravery of your men, unless there
be with your courage a mixture of a certain amount of
science , and familiarity with the operations of war, if
there be not a mixture of cultivation of mind generally
as well as a cultivation of technical knowledge—you do
not get your full value out of your courage, and you
'sacrifice lives which might be saved. Though the
'dogged courage of the British officer and soldier may,
under any circumstances of disadvantage, carry out the
objects for which they strive, still it is the duty of the
cJuntry to give its military men that instruction which
will enable their courage to accomprsh its objects with
the least sacrifice of lite and with the least loss to the
army. Great improvements have been made in the
regimental schools, and, with regard to the officers, a
council has been appointed (of which the Commander-
in-Chief is the head), consisting of officers of great dis-
tinction, in communication, of course, with my hon.
friend the Secretary for War (though he is not actually a
member of the council), its object being to frame a system
of education for the officers which will be calculated to
secure to the army men skilled in the profession, and
whose minds, already generally cultivated, have been
improved by a course of particular study and training.
When that commission has reported its -report will be
laid on the table, and I trust they will be successful in
framing a system of education calculated to accomplish
the objects I have mentioned. The total amount of the
csaree for the effective service of the army was in 1853-4,
7,403,291/. ; in this year it is 9,025,3601., making an in-
crease of about 1,658,787/. This is diminished by a de-
crease in the charge for the yeomanry, which we do not
propose to call out this year, and there is a diminution
in the non-effective services of 9,5341., which leaves a
total increase of 1,611,526/. We are sensible that it is
the duty of the Government to endeavour to combine a
due regard for economy with that efficiency which I am
sure this house and the country will wish should belong
to the military service. We have made a reduction as
compared with the last year of the war, and we propose
these estimates for the present year after a careful con-
sideration of the various items of which each charge is
composed. I hope the house will vote for the present
year the number of men and the amount of charge which
we propose, and during the nex; year it will be our duty
to endeavour to see what items can be diminished.
Some portion will naturally cease by the operation of
causes which are now in action. I do not think that
the amount of force is greater than will be required
for the-service of the country in time of peace, and
many of the other charges, the excess upon which com-
poses the greater portion of the aggregate excess beyond
the estimates of the year 1853-4, I am in hopes will
cease during the present year. My hon. friend the
Uunder-Secretary for War is ,quite ready to give the
committee every detailed information as we go step by,
step through the votes, and I am quite sure he will do
it with that ability and clearness which have distin-
guished him on every occasion when he has presented
himself to the house. (Heat., hear.) Though I have
thought it my duty to undertake to make this general
statement to-the house, it was not from any doubt of
the perfect competency of my hon. friend. (Hear.) In
another year, when he has had an opportunity of making
himself better acquainted with the subject, he will per-
form that duty which I have thought it better to per-
form fur him on the present occasion. The noble lord
concluded by placing in the hands of the chairman the
first vote :—" That a sum of 2,921,017/. be granted to
her Majesty, in addition to a sum of 1,467,000/. already
voted, for defraying the pay and allowance of her Ma-
jesty's laud forces at home and abroad, (allusive of those
stationed in the East Indies."
Mr, STAFFORD, after some general remarks, called
attention to an omission in the noble lord's statement re-
lative to the Army Medical 'Department, and charged the
Government with a desire not to carry out the recommen-
dation of the committee on the subject. The resolution
of the committee had been carried by large majorities ;
but nothing had been done by the Government but to
appoint a camtnittce. No inclination had been shown
on the part of the Government to ameliorate the
condition of the officers of that department. The
state of the army medical department was, as
far as regards the satisfaction and comfort
which those gentleman felt in performing their duty,
worse than it bad been before any inquiry took place.
If the future conditionof the department were settled,
the officers would know whether to relinquish their pro-
fession or whether to enter with spirit on the efficient
exercise of their duty. He trusted the experience we
had gained in the last war would not be thrown away.
It was a must noxious error to say that any disasters
arose from. the numerical weakness of our establish-
ments, or from the reluctance of the house to vote sup-
plies. We bad to look rather to the re-allotment of our
establishments for efficiency, than to any great increase
in numbers. How could they expect a department to
be efficient when they did not offer sufficient induce-
ments to officers to enter it ? He begged the Govern-
ment would not object to do something towards remedy-
ing the defects in the army medical department, a de-
partment connected with the health, the lives of soldiers,
by offering to the officers more inducements than the
miserable inducement which these estimates held cut to
them. That department was inferior at present to any
other department in the army. Much required to be
done fur the sanitary state of the army. Statistics
showed that the mortality of the troops was much
greater than among civilians. That arose from the ne-
glect of the army medical department. So long as they
neglected to draw the best talent of the country into
that department, so long they would fall to draw the
exoerience they ought from the lessons of the Crimea.
Mr. WATKINS congratulated the Government on
their determination to keep pace with improvements in
the mechanical world in relation to the manufacture of
arms. He should advise a system similar to that of the
United States in reference to the manufacture of small
arms.

Mr. MAGUIRE condemned the present system of
conveying the wives and children of privates and non-
commissioned officers from place to place. It was moat
expensive to the private eoldfers, or the non-commissioned
officers. It was a matter of great , consequence, and he
hoped he should have an assurance from the Govern-
ment that the system would be altered.
Sir F. BARING- having adverted to the enormous
oxpense of Alderehott, said that if the estimates should

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not be very materially reduced next year the house country, which would make it very nearly whet be lied
would do well to refer them to a select committee. stated. Making every deduction, it wee impossible to put
Sir DE LACY EVANS was of opinion that it was down the cost for sending out the 2,300 men at less than
impossible to adopt the motion of the hon. member for 200,000 Z. He had asked the right lion. gentleman (Mr.
Lambeth ; but at the same time be was quite convinced Labouchere) to show what equiva.'ent the country was to
that cud a course, Provided it could be carried out with- receive for this outlay, or at Last that portion of it which
out interfering with the executive Government, would be ; constituted the difference between the coat of disbanding
of very great advantage. Such a committee would col- ' the men and sending them to Germany, and that of pro-
lect evidence which would. be most valuable. He was viding for them-at the Cape, but he had received no sa-
not at all convinced that they had not time to conduct tisfactory answer. He now begged to repeat the question,
an inquiry into the expenditure, even during the present and he reminded the house that it would abdicate its
session. They had still three months, and much might ; functions if at the bidding of the minister it consented,
be effected in that time. If the hon. gentleman the ! without explanation, to vote five tunas as mace as
member for Lrutheth should renew his motion and sag- was required in any case. (Hear, hear.) Why should the
gest that they should be assembled to consider that ha- government fix on these Garman soldiers to defend the
portant subject, he would certainly vote for such a Cape frontier ? Were there no English soldiers to send
motion, though be could not have supported the motion out—men who had served in the late war, who bad
which the hon. gentleman had proposed that night. gained military experience, but whose services, now that
He could not refrain from according his humble Mead peace was re-established, were not requir -d in our army ?
of praise to the honourable member opposite (Mr. I The committee should also understand that there were
Stafford), for the benefit he had rendered to the army more troops at the Cape now than at any farrier time,
medical department. That department was not in the even during the Kaffir war. He believed there were no
state that it ought to be for the advantage of the lees than 10,000 troops at the Cape at this moment. It
army. He agreed as to the duty devolving on the GI- men were wanted let them be sent, but let them be sol-
vernment to see to the transport of the wives and chil- diers, and placed in the position of soldiers.
drew of soldiers, without involving the privates and non- Mr. LABOUCHERE paid a high compliment to Go-
commissioned officers in such heavy expense. The pre- vernor Grey, to whose great ability and energy he said
sent system required improvement. For the camps at we owed the preservaion of the Cape colony. He alt.,-
Aldershot and Shorncliffe they were indebted to -the late ;ether denied that the proposal of sending the German
Lord Hardinge. He (Sir De Lacy Evan.) had been Legion to the Cape bad emanated from Governor Grey
gratified that the Government had adopted the sugges- —it was the government at home that had suggested,
tion; but he did' not think that permanern huts had 1 and they alone were responsible for it.
formed any part of the original plan. He qeite con- I Major WORTLEY said it appeared -to him that it
curred in the observations which the noble lord had made I was hardly understood what the German Legion had
with reference to placing our maritime depots in an effi- 1 gone to the Cape for. They were that sort of hybrid
dent state of defence. No doubt the question of eco- soldier which never answered. When the threatening
tinny ought not to be lost sight of, but expenditure in aspect of affairs at the Cape ceased they would be die-
order to the maintenance of a due defence was not an bawled, and would go as servants to the borers, arid in
extravagance. The number of troops in England was case of their being required and ceded out, you could
certainly reduced to a quantity to which he would take not get 800 out of the 2,800 men that had gone there.
no objection ; whether the expenditure with regard to But the German Legion having gone there, he thought
those troops might not be reduced, he could not say, but the expense in the estimate was net large, and it seemed
be thought that some objection might be taken to the to him that as they were there the estimate ought to be
number of general and staff officers. (Hear.) voted.
Col. BOLDER() took occasion to complain of the de- Mr. HENLEY said the men were at the Cape, and
fenceless state of Woolwich, and pointed out the error he did not see how the house was to avoid paying the
which was at the present moment being committed by money which was required. But the right hon. gentle-
the erection of storehouses near the river. Some years man had brought back the question of the enlistment of
ago land was bought at Weedon for the very purpose of trained soldiers (which all foreigners were supposed to
placing stores inland, but the prudent step then taken' be) during the emergency of the war ; but these
was now being undone. He also wished to call the troops who were said to be trained soldiers were put
attention of the committee to the system upon which into training again when they came to this country,
officers were paid, when compared with the outlay to and they were kept in training to amuse the hon.
which those officers were necessarily subjected. He had I member for Colchester in his park—(laughter)—and
made a'ealculation, and he found that at the end of his to protect the " nursemaids" of Essex—(laughter)
first year's service an ensign, supposing him to spend and the training was kept up so long that not
only such sums as were absolutely necessary, and 'to one of thorn ever saw a Russian. (Laughter.) He
waste not one penny either in amusement or extrasa- should be the last man to wish the Government not to
ganee, at the end of the first year would be out of pocket keep faith with these men, but he could never under-
10Z. 10s. 9d., and at the end of the second year 7/. odd. stand why you should have enlisted them on such con-
This State of things ought to be amended. ' ditions, hslt of which would have made Englishmen
Capt. VlVlAN'thought that the referring the army jump at the offer. After all, the settlers of the legion
estimates to a select committee would lead to no good re- were picked out of the different regiments, and were not
suit, beyond, perhaps, the obtaining of some small more acquainted with each other or capable of working
amount of evidence. He was of opinion that the staff at toeether than Englishmen picked out of regiments in the
the present time was too large—(hear)—and that, in lieu same manner. The right hon. gentleman said the ele-
of reducing the rank and file, the amount of the staff ment of calculation was uncertain, but the element of
should be reduced. He also bore testimony to the useless payment was quite certain—(laughter)—and every far-
manner iu which the land at Aldershott was being em- thing that this country was liable to pay it would be
ployed. called on to pay. He wished to know if the pay of
Gen. THOMPSON could give unqaalified approba- these men was to be the same whether there was peace
Lion to the Statement which had been made by the noble or war ?
lord. If he added anything to what had been said on the Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, as far es this coun-
present occasion, it would be to impress on the commit- try was concerned, the pay would be the game at all
tee that true economy consisted in haying everything of times, but when the men were palled out 33 militia the
the best. colony would increase their pay.
Major KNOX urged the claim which the Italian le- Mr. HENLEY said that if they got a taste for fight-
gion which had been stationed at Malta had upon the ing they might have an understanding and kick up a
Government, and expressed a hope that the noble lord row with the Kaffirs—(laughter)—for the purpose of
at the head of affairs would see justice done. being put on the war pay and establishment. He
Col. HERBERT called'attention to the fact that hoped his hon. friend would not divide, as, at any rate,
Woolwich was our only depot for arms, although in case faith must be kept with the men with whom it had
of invasion it was one of the first pieces teat would fall entered into an engagement.
into the handset the enemy. He alio complained of the Lord PALMERSTON said it was very easy to make
reduction of our regiments of infantry and cavalry to the a joke of a thing. (Loud laughter). The right hon.
old peace establishment. In his opinion regiments should gentleman (Mr. Henley) with his grave and serious loos,
be kept up to their full strength, and if redaction were generally contrived to throw a great deal of jocularity
necessary, that it should be of regiments, not of large into his arguments. Tae last proposition of the right
numbers of men from each regiment. hon. gentleman had certainly surprised him, for he put
Col. SYKES was strongly in favour of referring the it to the house that the German Legion would, for the
votes annually to a committee. sake of pay, persuade the Kaffirs to come out to be shat
Lord J. RUSSELL supported the proposition before by thhse same Germans, iu order that they might get
the committee, but he had beard with apprehensein 6d. a day. It was ell very well to treat lightly the
several suggestions that had been made in the course measures which bad' been taken by the Government
of the discussion. He feared that, unless considerable during the war, in order to increase the disposable forces
reductions were made, it would be necessary next at their command. H rn. g-ntlernen said the Govern-
year to propose new taxes to a consiSerable amount. His went could have got British soldiers; but the fact wg,
right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would that they tried to get them, but were unabloto obtain
have enoughtbisyearfor hisestimates, but next year there them, at least not in sufficient numerical force for tie
svould be a reduction offour and a half millions in the taxes, purpo-es required, and they obtainedthe services of hese
andthereforehetrustedthattheabsolutenesessity ofreduce Germans, and excellent troops they were. As to their
tion and retrenchment would be seen and provided for. being kept at home for the amusement of the hon, memo-
He hoped that if a select committee should be appointed her for Colchester, the fact was, that a great many of
next year, sonic attempt wool i be made to produce them were sent to Turkey ; an,i all of them would have
reduced taxation. It ssas true that they hat to be gone if there had been another campaign. It was use-
prepared for a great military operation last year, but less to send them out in the winter; and if the spring
they were not to have a siege of Sebastopol every had not brought peace, they would have gone out, and'
year ; and if it were proposed to be prepared for such no doubt have done good serv,ce. But when the war
an operation every year, 200,000 men would be quite was over, the question was, what was to be done with
lirole enough as an annual vote. (Hear. hear.) He them There was some anxiety felt at the Cape with
trusted that next year, when everything good was to be regard to the Kaffirs, and it was determined to send
done—(a laugh)--the state of the finances would attract them there. The hon. gentleman said that these men
the serious attention of the government. (Hear.) were not adapted for colonists • but the Government had
Sir J. RAMSDEN explained that with respect to the reason to know that it was a wise and prudent measure
barrack expenses in former times, 60/. per" man was eon- to send them out as military colonists. The hon. gentle.
sidered a fair average ; whereas 100/, was rendered ne- man said, let the colonists defend themselves. Very

cessary now in consequence of the many modern im-
provements in the accommodation for the men. With
respect to Aldershott it was not intended that the en-
campment there should be more than a summer encamp-
ment. He admitted, with the gallant officer opposi‘e,
that Woolwich was in an unprotected state, but the mode
of defence, in ea-oil of threatened invasion, would be in
the mooring of blockehips and gunboats in the river. In
answer to inquiries respecting the condition of Alder-
shott, he was happy to say that the average of sickness
there was only tbree per cent., while at all other bar-
racks throughout the king mom it was four per cent.
With reference to the medical department of the army,
the government had received the report of the commis-
sioners, to which they attached high value, and he
trusted that with the information furnished by that re-
port some satisfactory reform would be effected.
gr. MACARTNEY thought this the proper oppor-
tunity of bringing for ward the case of thirty-six cavalry
officers who had been put on half pay last December,
after having been previously assured that the two troops
to which they were attached were to be a permanent aue-
mentation to the army. Six had been since absorbed
by other corps, but thirty still remained on half pay.
Atter some further conversation,
Mr. MAGUIRE hoped that sergeants and privates
who were permitted to take their wives with them
would receive some allowance for their travelling ex-
penses.
Sir W. WILLIAMS hoped that next year the case of
the sergeants would be considered, and their pay in-
creased. At present their pay was quite inadequate to
their position.
Sir DE L. EVANS objected to the amount of the
votes for barracks. He congratulated thr Under Sec-
retary for • War on the lucid manner in which he had
explained the estimetes. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN, in answer to the hon. member
for Dungarvon, said the soldiers' Wives were formerly
permitted to travel in the waggons, but that since the
introduction of railways that aceorenaodation had ceased.
The matter should be attended to. (Hear, hear.) The
suggestion of the hon. and gallant member for Calne
respecting the sergeants' pay should receive the most
serious attention.
Tne vote was then agreed to.
355,0551. miscellaneous charges for the land forces.
Sir J. TRELA.WNEY complained of the charge of
11,0001 in lieu of stock purse fund for recruiting and
hospital charges of the Guards, called attention to the
privileges enjoyed by officers of the Guards as compared
with those of. the Line, and mentioned that through
the Crimean expedition instances had occurred of offi-
cers of the Guards being placed over other officers of
more experience and equal actual rank, but who did not
enj )3, the nominal step above their rank which officers of
the Guards held. He believed too that in the appoint-
ments to commands in thearmy in the Crimea favouritism
had been shown to the Guards on account of their
aristocratic connexion.
Mr. BYNG thought it unwise and unjust to endeavour
to draw a distinction between the Guards and the Line,
between whom it was mest desirous that the utmost
good feeling should exist.
Mr. STAFFORD suggested that it was inconvenient
to discuss the relative position of the Guards and the rest
of her Majesty's forces incidentally ; but having visited'
the hospitals of the Guards, he wished to bear testimony
to their effiziency. They were perfect models of what
military hospitals should be.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the higher rank and
higher pay the officers of t he Guards enjoyed as corn-
pared. with the officers of other branches of the same ser-
vice. He saw a charge for 104 assistant-chaplains. He
was informed that the men in the dockyards and in
garrison formerly attended the churches in the neigh-
bourhood, but that now chaplains were appointed with
salaries of 2001. and 303/. each to perform divine service
in the garrisons or dockyards. This was a needless
increase of expense.
Lord LOVAINE reminded the house that the officers
of the Guards were deprived of their legitimate promo-
tion in consequence of the recommendation of the com-
mittee on army promotion.
Lord-A. VANE TEMPEST denied that the Guards
enjoyed any privilege to which they were not entitled.
Mr. CONINGRAM wanted to know what necessity
there was for a general inspector of Foot Guards.
SirJ. RAMSDEN replied that the appointment of the
officey in question was merely following out the system
that prevailed in other branches of the service ; the only
difference being that the number of men under the in
spection of the Inspector-General of the Guards was less
than that which each brigadier in the line bad to inspect.
Mr. ADDERLEY referred to the expense of sending
the German Legion to the Cape of Good Hope, whibh he
said amounted to 1001. a man, whereas they might have
been disbanded at a cost of 201. a man. He had made this
statement before, but it had been disputed. Since then
he had gone into the calculation, and found, taking the
Blue-book as his guide, that he was pretty nearly cor•
rect. He took the three years' pay to which they were
entitled at 94,0001. ; buildings' allowance, 50,000/. ;
115,0001. for outfits ; conveyance at 121. a man, including
officere, 30,0001. ; conveyance of families, 10,0001.; one
year's rations, at 9/. a man, 22,500 ; rations for families
7,5001. ; road making, bridges, and other works for
opening the country, together with churches and chap-
lains' salaries, 20,0001. ; full pay during the voyage,
7,5001. ; arms and calf equipege, 15 000/, ; sad free
passage for supernumerary offieere 1,000/. ; making to-
gether 268,500/. The grape of 40,0001. made by the C•ipe
authorities was for the whOle German Legion, but as not
more than ooe-third would go out, some 14,0001. must,
be deducted from that, and added to the net cost to this

good. But who were the best kind of colonists to defend
the colony ? Were they not such men as those who had
received military training and acquired military expe
rience ? The right bun. gentleman said that English
soldiers should have been sent to the Cape instead of
Germans ; but most of the English soldiers who were
discharged were invalided, and those who were nut inva-
lided preferred to go to their own homes and their own
counties rather than going to lead a wild life at the Cape.
With all deference to the right hon. gentleman and the
jokes he had'cut, the Government thoueht that they
were perfectly justified in the measure they had adopted,
and he believed that the result; would show that they
were perfectly justified in adopting it. The right hon.
gentleman, however, agreed that, right or wrong, the
thing was done, and that the house must not cut off the
sum necessary for carrying out the arrangement, and
those who thought that it ,was a right one were so much
the more fortified in their opinion, that the sum required
for the comfort and will-being of the men who had gene
out to the colony on the faith cf that arrangement,
ought to be voted.
After some further discussion the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 36,282/, for volunteer corps,
Sir J. RA.MSDEN, in reply to a question, said it was
the intention of the Government to call out about one-
third of the militia.
Col. GREVILLE wished to know whether the men
would receive 6/. bounty whether called out for training
or not, and whether any alteration would be made in
the remuneration allowed to the surgeons.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the militia formed no
part of the charge in the present estimates. When the
militia was embodied it was under the direction of the
Commander-in-Chief, and formed a part of the army ex-
penses. But when it was disembodied' it did not form a
pert of the army estimates. The estimate for that branch
of the service was framed by a committee of the house
appointed for that purpose. That would he done later
in the session, and it would be more coevenient to post-
pone any discussion relative to the details of the militia
service until the vote came regularly before the house.
• BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY (IRE-
LAND) BILL.
Mr. FITZGERA.LD moved that the house resolve
itself into committee on this bill for the purpose of pass-
ing some of the on, posed clauses.
Mr. WHITESIDE objected to the hone' going into
committee at that late hour (12 o'clock). The bill c
tamped 330 clauses, manly, of which were of great import-
ance.
Tne house divided. The numbers were—
For the motion
Against it
The house then resolved itself into committee, but
after a short discussion the chairman was ordered to re-
port progress and ask leave to sit again. The house
then resumed.
PORTLAND HARBOUR BILL.
The house resolved itself into coinroietee on this bill.
The various clauses were agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.
CINQUE PORTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Th,s bill w,as read a second time, and was ordered to
be committed on Thursday next.
MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND) BILL. •
Lord PALMERSTON intimated that the Govern-
ment would take charge of this bill, and said that if the
house did not object, he would at once move that it be
committed.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON hoped the noble lord would
not press the bill at that late hour.
Lord PALYIERSTON said' he would postpone the
committee until Thursday next.
PRINCESS. ROYAL'S. ANNUITY BILL.
This bill was brought in and read a first time.
EQUALISATION OF POOR RATES.
Mr. AYRTON said in consequence of the Meese of
the President of the Poor-law Board, he should postpone
his motion on this subject.
The house then adjourned shortly after half-past 12
o'clock.

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