The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-19 00:00:00

EVENING, JUNE 1

. 1857

the highest of their own officials in Ireland, the Govern-
ment now told the house that the funds in.the hands of
the ecclesiastical commission'rs were sufficient, and that
it was expedient t,) abolish the minister,' money tex. As
a question of amount he denied the c xproiisncy of the
present geverernent, or of any goverroneet, leading the
people of Ireland to believe that a resistance to the law
of the land was the first and easiest step to the parlia-
mentary abrogation of that law. But even the plea of
resistance to the levy of the tax was a miserable one.
Four-fifths of that tax were levied in Dublin al me, and
in that city no resistance had been offered. (Hear.) It
was to the resistance of Cork and of other towns, raising
not more than 3,000/ out of 12,0001., that the government
had succumbed. His noble friend had avoided this diffi-
culty by passing adroitly over the case of Dublin, but
he trusted that their lordships would not let the fact
pass from their minds. The bill wer,. in fact, an admis-
sion on the part of the Government of their inability to
maintain the law. Thera was no excuse whatever for
such a state of things. Their own act of 1854 contained
provisions for enforcing the law, and for declaring the
sums due from the corporations appointed to levy thestax
Crown debts. Had the proper process been followed the
amounts due might have been obtained as Crown debts.
But an opposition was made, not by the parties paying
the tax, but by those appointed to collect it— and the
corporations went before the Lord-Lieutenant for the
purpose of declaring that they would no longer levy the
ministers' money. Was ever awls a thing known before
as a public body coming before the represewative of a
Government, and telling him of their deliberate inten-
tion no longer to obey the law? Or, if such a proposition
ever was made, was there an instance until the present
of a ministry who did not reject it with disdain, and pro-
ceed to enforce that law which it was their bounden duty
ts uphold ? (Hear.) No member of their lordships'
house could hesitate a moment in answering such a ques•
tion. For these reasons, therefore, he objected to this
bill. He objected to it on principle, inasmuch as it took
from the church property which belonged to it by right
of property, as sacred as those by which any member of
that house held his patrimony, and inasmuch as it pro-
posed to apply that property for the mere benefit of the
tax-payer, without one single pretence either of abuse or
injustice. He objected likewise to it on the ground of
expediency, for it would cause a deficiency, to supply
which no present means existed, and because it gave a
premium to a refusal to obey the law. Wnile, therefore,
he would willingly do all to put an end to even the most
miserable fragment of agitation, be felt bound to pro-
pose that this bill be read a second time that day six
months. With regard to the clergy, he would ndd that
wh-ther the bill passed or did not pass, their position
iedividually would he precisely the same. If the bill
passed they would receive their incomes from the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, but they would receive them at
the expense of other groat objects which were provided
for in the Act of 1834, and which must be abandoned
if their 1 irdships consented to deprive the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners of a portion of their funds, as i; was pro-
posed to do by this bill.
The Earl of HARROWBY entreated their lordships
to consider the proposal of the Government calmly and
deliberately ; and unless they were prepared with some
better proposal for effecting the object, let them not run
the risk of a dangerous collision with the Irish popula-
tion, which would arise from compelling the Roman
Catholic corporations to levy this impost.
The Bishop of KELMOREsaid he could not but view
this bill as one which was calculated to do the greatest
injury to the Irish branch of the Established Church—
(opposition cheers)—and he confidently affirmed that
that was the universal opinion of the Pretest ant clergy
in Ireland with rare exceptions, if in feed there were
any exception. He opposed the bill because it virtually
repealed several clauses of the Church Temporalities
Act which took away the funds which had been set
apart as an equivalent for the church cess on its Wooli-
tion. Instead of promoting peace and good will, it
would have the very contrary effect, as it would be re•
gat ded by one party as a triumph, and by the other as
a grievous wrong.

The Earl of CORK sail he was as anxious as any
person to maintain the inviolability of church property,
but instead of attacking that inviolability this bill would
but strengthen and secure it ; it would do away wi h
one of those small grievances which tended so much to
produce ill feeling, and he trusted their lordships would
not reject the bill, and by so doing perpetuate a system
which was productive of a great amount of bitterness.
Viscount DUNGANNON said if this measure passed,
a precedent would be estaidished which would endanger
the foundation of property of every description. He
would give the bill his strongest and most decided oppo-
sition.

The Earl of WICKLOW opposed the bill.
The Earl of DONOUGHIVIORE said the measure
was one which if passed must end in ultimate spoilation.
His lordship entered into a variety of statistics bearing
upon the point.
Lord TALBOT DE MALAHIDE gave his assent
to the measure.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII said, that whether
their lordships accepted or rejected the HA, it was clear
that thugs could hardly be allowed to remain in their
present position. The duty of Government was to esta-
blish good feeling and tranquility • and that being his
opinion, he must naturally desire that no further attempt
should be made to collect this tax. He feared that the
ecclesiastical commissioners would not have funds to
supply the place of the tax they were about to repeal,
but he was prepared to offer a suggestion to the Govern-
ment, which be believed would create a complete equi-
valent. At present there was a separate esteblishment
for the church temporalit es, and his suggestion was that
the business should be trailiferred to the Board of Works,
by which means about 9,0001. a year might be saved.
He found that the expense of the church tewporalities
was 10 per cent., a very large amount, out all this might
be saved by ransferring the business to the Board of
Works, to which the clerical members of the commnsion
might go also whenever their iaterests were under dis-
cussion. If her Majesty's Government did not adopt this
suggestion, he should propose a clause in committee. In
the meantime, he thought it desirable that their lord-
ships should concede the second reading of the bill.
Lord BERN E RS opposed the bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE would have been con-
tented to give a silent vote on the question but that he
feared, whatever decision they might come to, that re-
sults would follow by no means satisfactory to the house.
The noble earl opposite had complained that the Govern-
meet proposed this bill when there was lit lo or no ex-
citement on the subject. Surely he did not mean to say
that they were to wait for agitation to concede a measure
of justice. On the contrary, it was the duty of sta',esinen
to foresee when concessiou was inevitable, and to con-
cede before agitation had made its appearance. The noble
earl objected to the principle of allowing people to make
religious scruple the ground of resistant to a pecu-
niary impost. Agreed ; but practically this religious
element would always enter into these matters, and
must be attended to. He now came to a point which he
hoped some member of the Government would be able
to clear up. It had been asserted in the course of that
debate that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland give a sort
of license to the corporations to resist this tax, and, as
he was about to vote for the second reading, he hi: bound
to protest against such a course on the part of the Li:rd-
Lieutenant of Ireland He hoped, however, that this
matter would. be satisfactorily explained by his noble
friend who was about to reply. He asked what situation
would the Government be in should thee- lordships un-
fortunately reject this bill. What would the position of
the Government of Ireland be, if ultimately obliged to
enforce the law, after having given license for its resist-
ance ? He hoped that his noble friend would clear up the
point, and he thought his noble friend should be grateful
to him for calling his attention to it. He had one feel
in,b of regret in voting for the bill, and that wa,, that
in doing so he should withdraw from the ecclesiastical
commissioners funds which could be so usefully em-
ployed, but as he believed that the removal of ministers'
money would tend to tranquillise the people of Ireland,
be should give his assent to the second reading.
Earl GRANVILLE said that in proposing the second
reading of the bill be had ventured an appeal to the noble
earl opposite for some explanation on four points. Ho
had asked the noble earl whether, having, when himself
in office, prepared a plan for the settlement of this ques-
tion, he would have any objection to state the leading
features of tbat plan to the house. To that appeal the
noble earl had not deigned to make the slightest reply.
Next he bad ventur. d to aske the noble earl whether he
could suggest any plan to get them out of the acknow-
ledged difficulty, and on that point the noble earl had
been silent also. He had then asked the noble earl to
point out the distinction between vestry cess and minis-
ters'. money, and had been equally unfortunate in obtain-
ing information. With respect to what had fallen from
the noble duke, he denied that any delay had taken place
in taking proceedings in Ireland ; In fact, they were
pushed forward with the greatest vigour until a parlia-
mentary declaration was made that the subject would be
taken into consideration by the legislature.
The Earl of DERBY rose to explain that when the
vestry cess question was settled it was found that by
long custom a small portion of it went to certain curates
in Dublin. To meet this case the 73d clause of the act of
1833 passed.
Earl GRANVILLE said that the explanation of the
noble earl did not g.. to the principle of that 73d clause.
The Earl of DERBY referred the noble earl upon that
subject to the noble lord theChiefJustiee, who was then
Attorney-General, and drew up the bill. (Laughter.)
Lord CAMPBELL said that it was his belief that in
drawing up that bill ministers' money was forgotten.
The noble earl (Derby) then threw over ten biehopr,ce
and church cess ; he would now urge him to throw over
the-ministers' money, and so complete the measure of
justice commenced in 1833. (Cheers.)
The house divided_.
For the second reading—Present 65
Proxies 3G
—lOl
Against—Present
Proxies

- 96

Majority
The bill was then read a second time.

POLICE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
The house adjourned at, ten minutes to 11.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)

THE ORDNANCE SURVEY OF SCOTLAND,

Oa the next vote (151,744/ ), for education and soden
tific branches), •
Sir D. NORREYS complained of the large rxoerKe
the count, y wa.: put to for the survey of Scotland, which
was so minute, as to walk out the site of every garden-
walk and pump upon the various estates. Such maps
were perfectly unnecessary for any national purpo4,s, an/
were simply surveys of estates fur the advantage of the
private landowners at the country's expense. Tae cub-
ject had been brought forward ora a former occasion, but

Sir W. JOLLIFFE bad nothing to say against the
scale, but he complained of the Government proceeding
with the survey of the Highlands, while London and the
popu!ons districts of England were left unsurveyed.
Lord GIFFORD said, after a careful study of this
question, he had come to the conclusion that the 25-inch
-cale was a great mistake, and e,ight to be discontinued.
It was of no use to any one but the Scotch landowners,
and if they wanted it theyought to pay for it themselves,
Mr. HENLEY ridiculed the modesty of the Scotch
members, who, finding that the Irish had got a reap
on a scale six time+ as laige as that of England, insisted
that Scotland should be only lour times as large as that
of Ireland. Ho had always understood that this 25-
inch scale was a very expensive one, and he was not con-
vinced by the arguments which Lord Dunc n had rut
forward. As the motion before the house was n tto
redu,e the vote, but to give time for reconsideration, he
would support it.
Lord ELCHO at some length entered into a history
of the whole que-tion. On the merits of the case he
argued that the opponents of the w+a-ure were incon-
sistent, and fell into a fallacy in speaking of the 25 inch
scale as a monstrous map. The truth was that when you
went beyond a one•inch scale it ceased to be a map, and
became a plan. Now, a six-inch scale was too large for
a map and too small for a plan. The difference bet Neen
the six and 25-inch scale was that of the difference be-
tween Brown Bess and the Enfia I rifle.

Mr. LOCKE thought the 25-inch scale was not ob-
jectionable in itself, hut he pretested again .t the engrav-
ing and publication of any map on a larger scale than
one inch. If any higher scale were adopted it ought to
be at the expense of the Scorch landlords, for whose
benefit alone it could he intended.
The LORD ADVOCATE said if it were desirable to
have a proper national survey, no doubt they should
have the best that could be procured. He hoped the
house would not adapt the tuition of the hon. hart , and
thus encourage the constant chauges in surveys, pulling
down one year what they had bunt up in previous years.
He trusted the house woulf affirm the decision to which
the Parliament had come. The question was not an
abstract one of scolds, but whether they would go on
with the Scotch survey. (Hear, bear.) He had heard
the most extraordinary statements made with regard
to the expenses, and it had been said that it would
cost three, four, or five million..., whereas this
would c,st less than the Irish survey. The Irish
survey cost 1,205,0001., whereas this would cost
less tsan a million. No doubt the one-itch scale was
the right one for a map, but this Scotch survey was not
for a map, and by the anastatic process a reduction could
be effected to any extent, and that was the plan which
was adopted in Francs, whereas the hon. baronet had
incorrectly stated that the maps et re not published. The
Tithe and Enclosure C .minissioner3 hal repot ed that
the one-inch scale was perfect y useless for their purposes.
The hon. baronet had stated that this scale was recom-
mended by the Scotch landed proprietors ter their own
purposes, but he forgot that on the committee which re-
cnninended the Irish scale there were fourteen Iri-h
members, and so the Irish scale began. (Leughter.) The
best answer he could give to those who thought a six•
inch scale so excellent would be to refer to the immense
advantages that the twenty•five-inch survey had been to
Ireland. The rate of surveying had not been greater in
Scotland than in England ; in fact, while 8,000 and some
odd miles had been surveyed in Scotland, 9,000 odd
miles had been surveyed in England. The whole staff
was at present in operation, and it would throw every-
thing into confusion to stop the survey ju,t at this time
time for the sake of a very doubtful saving of 50,0001.
Tne hon. and learned gentleman concluded by quoting
the testimony of Jeremy amthaw as to the importance
of having a good eatioral map.
Capt. BOLDER() addressed a few words to the house
in favour of the six-inch scale, aed referred to the great
service the Ordnance maps had rendered to eneineersand
railway promoters during the season of the manna
Mr. ELLICE said that the real question was whether
Sc ,eland was ,0 have a mop or an estate -urvey. The sur-
vey apon the scale of 25 inches to the mile -eas altogether
useless ; and be knew in one county (viz , Ros--shire) an
hon. friend of his who represented the county had pur-
chased a map, the only one that ever had best) pur-
eha,ed, and had since stowed It away in a cellar, be-
cause from its size it was uselees. The hon, member
alluded in particu'ar to the island of Harris, and other
parts in the Highlands which were perfectly barr .n, and
as there were already 624,0001. not disposed of, he hoped
the house would come to such a resolution as would
prevent the further extravagant expenditure of the
puldic money for so useless a purpose.
Lord PAL.VIERSTON said that the motion of the
hon. baronet the member for Mallow (Sir 11, Norreys)
would place the Government in a greater difficulty than
it had ever been in before. It had been said that they
were to stop all the work now in progress, and cony out
the wishes of the house. But he would defy any govern-
went, or any man, to discover from that debate what the
opinion of the house was. One hon. gentleman was for a
25. inch survey, another for a 6-inch, and ai.other for a
2-inch survey and a 1-inch map. He requested hen.
members to discharge from their minds most of the great
exaggerations they had heard respecting the cost of the
survey. For himself he thought it a pity and a great
waste of public money that the map of Eeglanti had been
upon so small a scale. He thought it should have been a
2-inch map at least. He had seen the plans of the 6 inch
survey, and he.considered that for places where there
were buildi gs to be defined they were far too small to be
satisfactory. With regard to publishing the '25 inch map,
that was not intended, but it was well known that by
the aid of science copies could be supplied without being
engraved at a very moderate expense. It was a mistake
to suppose that the island of Harris bad been surveyed
on the 25-inch scale ; thas was not so. The 6'incla scale
bad been adopted ; but though fir the other parte of
Scotland the larger scale had been used, 'that was no
more than bad been done in Ireland, where there wee
quite as much land as in the Highlands. He hoped that
a few years more would complete the survey, and that
in the meantime the boase would not Interfere with the
present arrangement. (Hear, hear, and divide )
Mr. TITE rose amidst loud cries of " divide," and for
several minutes addressed the house in what was little
better than dumb motions. The purport of the hon.
gentleman's remarks was understood to be that the six
inch scale having been found large enough for Ireland,
ought to be sufficient for Scotland.
The question was then put that the vote be reduced
from 151,7441. to 115,7441., and the house divided.

For the recruction 172
Against it
Majority
115,7441., the reduced vote, being put,
Mr. BLACKBURN said equal ju-tice demanded that
the vote for the English survey should be put on r he same
footing as the Scotch, he should, therefore, propose that
that sum be reduced by the sum of 24,4301., being the
rence between the cost of the twenty-five inch and
the six inch scale.

The house then divided, when the numbers were for
the motion—
Ayes 290
Nebes
---268
Majority

The amendment was therefore lost.
Oo the motion that the house do adopt the resolution
so amended,
Lord ELCHO said the discussion had been between
the merits of the 25 and 6-inch scales, and they had de-
cided that the 25-inch scale in Scotland sbou d not be
continued. By the second vote, what bad been nega-
tived in Scotland had been affirmed in Eng'and. Ile
congratulated the house on the consistency of their deci-
sion.
Sr DENHAM NORREYS defended his conduct in
connection with the assertions he bad made. that Eng-
land had Leen surveyed on a 6-inch scale. He held in
his hand a map which justified the vote he and the house
had given. Had ho believed that the 26•igoh scale was

the Chancellor of the Erchequer got out of the difficulty , being carried on in England he should not have opposed
by referring it to a committee of nine me nbere, of whom the vote for the Caine scale in Scotland.
eiglit were Scotch. (A laugh.) Of course no! hirig was Mr. HENLEY sad he believed the house intended
done, and a it was a question involving an txpel,se o put down t)•e*2s_i,,l, eee4a„e „„ web as in
God knows how many millions of money. he should move Scotland. The whole tenour iit !io• debase had proved
that the survey of Scotlnnd, on the scale of 25 inches teat, to be the intention. He did not think there was
to the mile, be discontinued ; that the survey of Scotland eey wish to lea.. Sao; anii dale] ter iy to England.
be carried on, as it has been in Ireland, the northern (Heir, hear )
portion of England, and a large portion of Scotland, on Mr BLACKBURN de-claimed any intention to spite
a scale of Gin. to the mile, and that it be engraved on Scotland in the amendment he ha made.
that scale ; and that a map of Scotland, on a scale of lin. Lord PA L VIERSTON sail be believed the -;hr le
to the mile, be also reduced from the Gin. map for en- county of Durham had been surveyed on the 25-inch
graving and publication. The hon. gentleman stated he scale. But the intention o ftbe house, as he un :erstood
was an Irishman, and he claimed justice for Ireland in it from the first vote, was that no further surveys
the matter of that great outlay. He then entered into should be made oe that scale. (Hear, b-ar )
a long statement of facts arid figures with a view, as he Mr. E. ELLICE expressed his astoni,lament at the
said, of showing that Scotch landoeners did not under- uncertainty which appeared to exist among the officers
stand their own interests. (Laughter.) The ordnance of the survey, ae to the ,cale on which the survey for
map itself would be far too large to be of any practical the county of Durham had been conducted. So far from
service, and the reduced map would be quite useless, be- the 25 inch scale being too large, he had had the opinion
cause it could not be depended upon. The Gin. map, of an able manager of the rnimral interests, that to he of
however, was so perfect, that Sir John M'Neill, who was any value for the mineral districts the scale ought to be
an eminent engineer, had stated to him only two days 11 feet to the mile. (Laughter.) It appeared that a
previouly that he had laid out several hundred miles of 25-iech survey had been going on in Durham without
railways by that map alone. In fact. it was so full that that house having any knowledge on the subj-ct. (gear.)
engineers now never "chained out" or measured the Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask the Speaker a gees-
land they required to take. They depended upon the tion upon a matter of form. The house was now ceded
Ordnance map alone, which in many cases was more ac- upon to affirm a vote supposed to have been arrived at
curate than the large maps made by local surveyors. by seine committee, but there was uo committee then
Every engineer examined before the committee Lad ad- sitting.
mitted that the Gin. map was sufficient ferPailiarnentary The SPEAKER—The business before the house is
purposes, with relation to tauding enters. As for the the consideration of the report of the Committee of Sur
" geological" reasons that had been given for the 25in. ply, and what the house has done has been to amend a
survey, Sir R. Murchison had altogether repudiated them. resolution which has been passed by that committee.
If they desir d to connect a transfer with a map they The question, therefore, which I have to put to the
must have an index, and it would be impossible to index house is that this house agrees with the resolution of
a 25 inch map. It was both too large and too the committee as it has now been amended.
small. It was a map they could not use for registration. The question was then put and agreed to.
It was impossible to have a standard map for the regis- The remaining votes included in the report were also
tration of property. It was equally impresible to frame agreed to.
a map that was perfect for all purposes. Would they in- The Ecclesiastical Corporations Bli and the Ecclesi-.
cur an enormous expense merely to give the Scotch gen- astical Commission Bill were, after a short conversation,
tlerriers plans of their estates ? He prayed the house to read a second time, with a view of being referred to a
intercept this monstrous survey. He had taken much select committee
pains to make himself master of the subject, and he had TURNPIKE TRUSTS .ARRANGEMENT BILL.
given the house his conclusions. He should move that the This bill went through eoruinittee,
whole of the survey estimate should be struck out INSURANCE OF LIVES (ABATEMENT OF IN-
(36,0000, in order to drive the Government into making COME TAX) CONTINUANCE BILL,
a supplemental set mate. This bill went through committee.
Lord DUNCAN entered into a history of the changes MARRIED WOMEN'S REVERSIONARY INTE-
that had taken place in the Ordnance survey, defended REST BILL
the 25-inch survey as best adapted for the purposes of The house went into committee on this bill.
Scotland, as little, if at all, more expensive than if done Mr. DOBBS proposed an amendment in clause Ito
on the smaller scale, and as capable of being reduced to the effect of restricting the power of disposition given
a smaller scale, while the smaller scale could not be by the act to married women of the personal property
raised. So much was this the case that a large portion of after marriage.
England bad been obliged to be re-surveyed, as it was Mr. MALINS objected to the amendment, as it would
first began on too small a scale. As a further reason for dastry the value of the bill altogether.
retaining the present arrangement, he added that a great The amendment was negatived without a division.
portion of the cultivated districts in Scotland was al- The bill, after some amendments, passed through
ready finished, and that considerable loss had been sus- committee.
tamed by the frequent changes that had taken place in The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
the matter. He hoped therefore, the house would now house adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock.
settle the question once for all.

Country Markets.

BOSTON-JUNE 17.

Our market this morning was thinly attended, and there
was a short supply of all kinds of grain, which met a slo►v
demand at fully 2s to 38 per qr. higher prices, the best
samples of red wheat realising 655. Of oats and be.ll,
few ou offer, at about last week's rates. Nothing doing in
barley and pew.
_

Prices :---Wheat, red, 54s Od. to 65s Od; new, —s to ;
white, 643 to 67s Od , extra, 695. Barley, 403 Od to 47s
01. oa,l,- 203 to 303. Peas, 40 to 44s Od. Beans, 44s
Od to 48s Od per qr.