The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-14 00:00:00

PUBLIC WORKS IN IRELAND.

The Earl of LEITRIM moved for a copy of the re-
ports of the commissioners appointed by the Lords Com-
missioners of her Majesty's Treasury to audit and report
on the accounts of the Commissioners of Public Works
in Ireland, and particularly such as referred to the frauds
committed by the Assistant-Accountant about the years
1847 and 1848.—Agreed to.

inves4Tateinto the financial affairs of Greece, and report
thereon.

policy of the war as dangerous and bad. If, on the other
hard, the nohlo lord will not state that a debate will lead
to the interruption of negotiations, I trust that the house
will enable me on the earliest day—perhaps on Monday
next,—to bring forward the subject, so as to obtain the
opinion of the bOuse upon a question of the most vittl
importance to the interests of the country. (Islear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Of course, it is impossible for
any person to say what will necessarily be Lie result of
anything that is going to happen, but we are in negotia-
ion at present with Persia in Paris, and I think, upon a
general view of the matter, that persons less experienced
in diplomacy than my hon, friend must see that a debate
upon the subject of negotiations could not fail to produce
injurious consequences. Whether it would occasion a
continuance of the war is more than I can tell, but cer-
tainly I can undertake tosay, as a Minister of the Crown,
that negotiations having commenced, and having hitherto
been conducted in a promising manner, such negotiations
must be very much damaged and the public interests
must be injured by a discussion in this house founded
upon imperfect information andbearing upon many points,
which may, perhaps, be settled in negotiation. Speeches
by persons who are imperfectly informed of the facts must
necessarily have an injurious effect, and I assure the

CATHEDRAL CHAPTERS.

house that it is the anxious desire of the G-overnment to
conclude peace Pith Persia on conditions which shall be
honourable and satisfactory to both countries, and which
shall give some lair security for 1 continuance of peace.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. S. HERBERT asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether it was the intention of the Government to
bring in any daring the present session to regulate Ca-
thedral Chapters; whether it was intended to renew the
act Glynd 37 Vic. c 35, by which all appointments to ca-
pitnlar offices were made subject for two years to the pro-
visions of any measure which might be passed, founded
on the Report' of the Cathedral Commission of 1852 ?
And whether any stipulation had been made with the
canons late)), appointed, that they should hold their
canonties subject to the provisions of future legislation I
Lord PA.LMERSTON said that the Government had
1.• intention of proposing such a bid at present, and that
no stipulitioo bad been made with the canons lately ap-
pointed za-lative- to their tenure of office.
E NATIONAL GALLERY.

Mr. 0 ['WAY asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether (it was the case that Mr. Ford, one of the Royal
Coromi,=sloneis appointed to determine the site of the
National Gallery, had resigned his appointment, and, if
so, whithcr it was the intention of 13,-r Majesty's Govern-
ment to recommend any other gentleman fdr the vacant

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was true Mr. Ford had resigned his office, and that there
was noiutention on the part of the Government to fill
it up.

RELATIONS WITH PERSIA.
On the motion that the SPEAKER leave the chair,
Mr. said—Bdore you leave the chair, sir,
I wish to ask a question of the noble I)rd at the head
of the Government on a subject to which I attach
great inip4tanee—l mean our relations with Persia.
At the beginning of this week I gave notice of a motion
on the subject. I did so notwithstanding that the Pre-
sident of:the Board of Control had stated that negotia-
ti°os were taking place at Paris, and a selection of pa-
pers would be laid on the table. My reason for persist-
ing was this. It is almost unprecedented that a war
shoul•i be entered, on virtually whin' Parliament is sitting
a❑d peace concluded while Parliament is sitting, without
Parliament having an opportunity of expressing its
opinion upon so Important a subject. Another reaso❑

was that I am led to believe we are about to enter into
treaty engagements With Persia, which may involve, to
a serious extent, our relations with the States of Central

Asia. I believe that there are many gentlemen in this
house and in the country who agree with me in that'
opinion. I Therefore think, ' before the treaty is
signed at Paris, airl this country forms engagements
which may lead hereafter to serious conplicabrons—
(bear, hear)—and to many wars, that the bou3e thou'd
have an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon
our Central Asian policy. I have been told privatey that
the negotiations are in such a state that a debate in this

house might lead to their interruption and to the con-

tinuance of war. The greatest of all evils is the continua-
tion of war, and, as I should be most imprudent under
such circumstances to press the debate, I beg t) ask the
noble lord at the head of the Government whether he
will state seriously and positively that a debate in this
house upon the Ptrsian question would so far interfere
with the negotiations as to prevent their successful issue,
and to lead to a continuation of the war. If the
noble lord make that statement I must throw myself
up ,n the hou,e, at the same time protesting against the

The same Noble Earl also moved for a copy of the ap-
plications made to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland for
the office of the Clerk of the Crown of the c)unty of
Leitrim, together with the recommendations of the seve-
ral candidates, and the correspondence with reference to
the recent appointment to that office.
Earl GRANVILLE submitted to the noble earl that
it was impossible to furnish a return of that nature ; but
offered to supply a copy of the correspondence which
had passed between the noble earl and the Government
on the subject. •
The Earl of LEITRIM said the correspondence would
be useless to him without the rest of the papers.
The motion was then withdrawn, and the house ad-
journed at 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.

BAILLIE—Has the noble lord any objection to

ay upon the table of the house a copy of the ultimatum

which was sent to the Ferman Government previous to

the declaratio❑ of wart This is the first time that this I
country ever engaged in a war without knowing what it
was about. Wit are told we are fighting because Persia
kas taken possession of Herat ; but the Persians say
that it is nu suds thing, but MAU England has made

fresh demands upon Persia. If the dispute bad bean
about Herat Lord Stratford de Radcliffe would have set-
tled it long ago at Constantinople. What are the fresh
:demands, then, that England has made upon Persia, and
will the noble lord lay upon the table of the house a
copy of the ultimatum which was sent to the Persian
Government , •
L Ord PALMERSroN—I fear that I cannot. under-

take to do that, because it would be making a statement
with regard to matters which are the subject of negotia-

tions yet i❑ progress, which would be contrary to every
rule, and injurious, probably, to the interests of the
country.

Mr. ROEBUCK.—It would seem, then, Sir, that. the
boasted supervision of this house is a farce. (Hear,
hear.) Let us consider a little the circumstances in
which we are placed. A war has been declared; and of
that war the House of Commons knows nothing, The
war has been commenced and carried on, and the House
of Commons knows nothing of the transaction. We are
informed that negotiations are proceeding, and wheal
question is put with regard to them we are told that
the House of Commons knows nothing, and ought to
know nothing ; so that we are now in this position :

The Hon. S. WORTLEY, her Majesty's Solicitor-Ge-
neral, took the oaths and his seat on his re-election for
Bateshire.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following private bills were read a second time :
—Bristol, South Wales, and Southampton Union Rail
way ; Nene Valley Drainage and Nav,lgation Improve-
ment ; Tilbury, Maldon, and Colchester Rail a)_; Tyne
'lmprovement ; and Pulteney Tow ndiarbour. •
INC° SIB TAX.

Mr. PIGOTT presented a petitickn, from . Reading
against the continuance of the income tax.
Various petitions were presented from other places to
the same effect.
PERCUSSION CAPS FOR THE ARMY.
Lord BURGHLEY asked the Under Secretary of
State for War whether it was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to adopt for the ar►ny, insteal of the
•present regulation copper caps, Eley's elastic waterproof
percussion caps ?
Mr. F. PEEL said that description of caps bad been
ordered, but machinery had to be purposely got up
for it.

ARCTIC MEDAL.
Mr. VERNON asked the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty whether the design of the arctic medal had been
decided upon; how soon the medal would probably be
issued ; and whether it was to he conferred upon any
foreign as well as British officers awl men who have
been'engaged in Arctic Discovery Service,?
Sir C. WOOD said that the Gazette of that day fort-
night gave every information respecting it, and how the
medal was to be distributed. He read the notification
from the Gazette. The medal would be ready for deli-
very about the end of the month.
SAVINGS BANK BILL.
In answer to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he proposed Ito introduce his Savings Bank Bill on
Tuesday next.

GREEK LOAN.
Dlr. JAS. WGREGOR asked the First Lord of the
Treasury if any and what steps had been taken by the
Government to ascertain the present revenues of Greece,
how they were disposed of, and the probability of their
being adequate to relieve the Consolidated Fund of the
47,0001. which was paid annually for the interest
land sinking fund of the Greek loan guaranteed by this
country under the act 2 and 3 Will. 4, o. 121, and 6
and 7 Will. 4, c. 94, or any part thereof ?
Lord PALMERSTON said much communication had
passed between the various Governments referred to,
and, the result was, that a commission was to be formed
of the three protecting Powers at Athens, who were to

that it would be very difficult for the house to ,arrive at
I anything in the nature of a-satisfactory understan ding at
the present moment with respect to the policy-a the:
Persian war. Ifu ly admit the force of the general con. -
siderations which were urged by the noble lord the mem-
ber for the City of London, and which were very fairly'
admitted by the hon. member for Aylesbury, that it Ist
most undesirable that we should incur any risk of frus-
trating negotiations which may possibly issue in the esta. 1
I liniment of peace. At the same time there are other
questions which are anterior in order to the discussion .
of the negotiations. We stand in the very peculiar
position of being made aware that a war involving
grave questions of pc licy has been undertaken by the
Government on their own responsibility, and without
the knowledge or sanction of Parliament. At present,
as I understand, papers are in preparation which, while
they are not to contain anything that in the judgment of
the Government is likely to interrupt the negotiations,
are, notwithstanding, to exhibit to us the causes of the
war, and to put us in possession of such information
as shall enable us to exercise our constitutional
function of judging whether the Government did or did
powers, and whether they did or
not go beyond their
did not make a judicious and constitutional use of those
powers in waging war against Persia. I frankly own my.
self that I can form no judgment whatever upon this
subject until I have seen those papers. (Heer.) When
we see the papers, which will tell us the time when in-
structions were sent out fur despatching the expedition
from Bombay, and which will disclose the cause of the
war, then I think will be the time for members of this
house to consider whether it is necessary to raise any
question with regard to the objects of the war, and to
the conduct of the Government in having commenced it.
With respect to the negotiations, it is impossible,at the
present time for the house to give, either byexpression
or silence, a, y absolute pledge upon the subject. We
roust, in the first instance, see the papers, and until we
have seen the papers and have considered the origin of
the war it is impossible for us to know how far the Go-

vernment is in a condition to ask for the confidence of
the house with reference to the conduct of the negotia-
tion 3. The hon. member for Aylesbury wilt take what

ho may think the most prudent course with regard to
immediate discussion, but we cannot be precluded by
anything which has taken place to-night from raiding
the question relative to the origin of the war. lam not
sure whether I heard the noble lord the member for the
city of London rightly, but I understood him to say that
some questions had been set aside. It does not appear
to me that the question with respect to the origin and
the causes of the war has been set aside ; on the con-

rary, I think it remains fully and entirely open fur the

future consideration and judgment of Parliament.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The right hon. gentleman has
noisunderstool me. What I said was, that the question
remains entirely open for the discussion of the house.
Mr. DISRLELI—I think, sir, the house should be
very jealous of the plea of negotiations when a war has
commenced. Before a war is commenced, when there is
a misunderstanding between two Governments, of course
the greatest forbearance ought to be shown by an as-
hembly like the House of Commons ; but when hostilities

lave begun, when they are in progress and raging, we
should not be prevented from either criticising the causes
of the war or entering into the progress and conduct of the
war by the fact being alleged that some negotiator, ob-
scure or otherwise, is negotiating, or attempting to ne-
gotiate, with the Government. Negotiations have fre-
quently been carried on during the progress of a war.
Russia was conquered by the Emperor Napoleon while
negotiations were in progress between the Russian Go-
vernment and France. It is most important that we
should clearly understand whether the negotiations
which are taking place upon the subject of Persia are
sound negotiations, and whether there is a fair probabi-
lity of their being carried to a successful termination.
We ought to knew also whether the negotiator in Paris,
who may be successful, is the unsuccessful negotiator of
Constantinople. I agree with the noble lord the mem-
ber for the city of London that this is a subject which
requires some forbearance ; but at the same time it is
one which we ought to view with jealousy, for we may
and that the Persian war may proceed, and we may be
involved in more than one campaign, while during the
whole of that period the existence of negotiations may
be used by the Government to prevent discussion. But,
Sir, there is one subject on which I think I may ask for

the papers without at all embarrassing negotiations, and
it is with respect to our interference in the affairs of the
kingdom of the Two Sicilies. I was led to understand
by the Speech from the Throne that these papers would

be laid on the table, and, considering all that has oc-

curred, I did believe that on ithe first day Parliament

met they would have been in our hands. We have now

been in session nearly a fortnight ; the papers are not in

our possession ; and I must urge the noble lord at tie
head of the Government speedily to produce documents
which long before this ought to have been in the hands
of the members of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear,)
Mr. GIBSON—I beg to remind the house of one de-

(castration which the First Lord of the Treasury has al-
ready made- to us—viz , that this country is to pay half
of the experves of the war with Persia. Now, seeing
that the Government have pledged the industry of Eng-
land to pay for the Persian campaign, I think they
ought, when the war was commenced, to have given
some little information to Parliament with respect to the
origin and cause of the war.

The motion was then agreed to, and the house went
,nto Committee of Supply; Mr. FITZROY in the chair.

THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sose at a
few minutes past 5 o'clock, in a crowded house, to make his

annual financial statement. The right hon. gentleman said,
—Sir, however conscious I may be of the difficulty of the
task which I am about to discharge, I can assure the com-
mittee that my feelings would be altogether misconstrued
if it were supposed that I felt any reluctance to make to
them at the earliest opportunity a statement of the expen-
diture and revenue of the country. The committee are
well aware that the ordinary course is first to consider
the principal estimates for the great services, especially
the army and navy, in Committee of Supply, and then,
when some progress has been made with those estimates,
it becomes the duty of the Chancellor of the Exche-

If we put a question before an accident happens we are quer to submit to -the house the ways and means by
told that we are too soon; if we put it while the trans- which the expenditure of the ensuing year may be met.
actions are going on we are told that we are intermed- As soon as I became aware that it was the general wish
dliug ; and if we come to the house and inquire after the of the house that the financial statement should be
transaction is terminated we are told that we are too late. made before the estimates for the army and navy were
c
(Bear, hear.) I would ask, then, when is the House of considered in Committee of Supply, I gave notice of my
Commons to inquire—before the mischief happens, while in
b ion to make that statementie to-day. Letw tiiiiiehootruhe-
it is going on, or when it is ended? At no time. I i t
financialtee statementosery observe that h
couldti is the
be
made.
It
was
only
yon
Mon-
repeat, then, that the boasted supervision of this house
day last—the last Government night—that, in Committee
is a farce. We pretend to govern the country; we pre- of Supply, an address was agreed to to the Crown to pre-
tend to overlook the conduct of the Ministry ; but, in. sent the estimates for the army and navy. Those estimates
stead of that, we sit by in silence; England may have have since been presented. This is the Second Committee
every interest complicated and endangered, the very of Supply, but the estimates being now on the table, and
power of this country may be at stake, and the House no vote having been taken in Committee of Supply, no
of Commons dare not say a word because the Minister Committee of Ways and Means has been appointed. Hence
tells them that they •are either too soon or too late. this ,is the first occasion, being the second time when a
Lord J. RUSSELL—The circumstances of the pre. Committee of Supply has sat, on which it was competent
cent time with regard to the Persian war appear to me to me to make the statement which lam about to address
to the committee. Hear, hear. Now, Sir, I think the
to be unusual. I will not now raise the question who- ()
committee must be satisfied that there has been no delay
Cher the Government ought to hays assembled Parlia-
or reluctance on my part to lay before them the innual
meat before they gave orders for hostilities against
financial statement. In ordinary years it is no doubt de-
Persia ; but that question being set aside, we are in this
sirable that the consideration of the army and navy esti-
peculiar position, that, at the same time that we are in-
mates should take precedence. I fully admit, however, thatb
formed of hostilities having been ordered and under- ir
taken we are likewise informed that negotiations have eenvxentraoienrtdi ton adopt
aarsd, such a
different
ts
otohne present
eTnht
The reason
it
thenmoal e
been commenced at Paris, and, as my noble friend has usual procedure is this—the house fixes what expenditure
just stated, they have been opened in a promising man- is necessary, and then, the expenditure being fixed, it is
ner. It appears to me that that position is quite pecu- the duty of the executive Government to submit to the
liar, and I certainly think that it is one which requires house a plan by which that expenditure may be defrayed.
the forbearance of this house. (Hear.) I can well con- But, although a considerable portion of the expenditure of
the country may be regarded as necessary and essential,
ceive, if all the papers were now produced, and a die-
as inevitable for the serviceto of theyaear,there•ii also a not
suasion were to arise upon them, that the terms de as
portion as which. discretion may exist.
mended by England before the war might be commented
There are certain expenses which may be thought muses-
upon 4 lipase hen, gentlemen as impolitic and excessive,
arin one year, but postponed to a future year. There
and it is clear that such observations might tend to aseeyoo-esain purposes to which expenditure may be. applied
embarrass and disturb the negotiations which are now to a greater or a less degree, which may be
o which,
accomplished
in progress. I can
Iconceive, for example, that Feruk in a more or less complete manner, and as t
Khan, or any one vcho is negotiating with Lord Cowley, therefore, the house may reasonably say, t 4 We
wish
might coun-
might take encouragement from such a discussion in this to know what is the pressure of taxation in th
house, and might not be so ready to agree to reasonable try, and whether any impost may be justly regarded
on
terms as would otherwise be the case; and therefore, as grievous and oppressive, before we agree to
a reti (Boar.) Sir, this is undoubtedly a period to which that de-
may though the circumstances are very peculiar, and though of the expenditure which is not necessary,
disc but wrti'aothn
in an ordinary case it would be right to ask for the ,
tapers, I can very well imagine that the Government '
may be justified, in withholding them now. I believe,
ecription applies. We are passing from war to peace, from
•cted expenditure, and it is a reasonable demand on
however,-that the suspense cannot be very long. The ma. a period of large expenditure to a period of comparatively
jority of the points at issue were discussed repeatedly at
rthe t
e part of the House of Commons that the
Constantinople, and the Government must be well aware y should be
'formedin-
of the probable taxation, of the probable ways and
what the terms are which they mean to insist upon, and
what those are which they will not press. I imagine, , means of the ensuing year, before they enter upon theooo, zi..:
therefore, that we shall either hear before long that there sid ration of the estimates. My hon. friend whor what re
the address on the first night of the session drew
has been a rupture of the negotiations, or that we shall Chancellor of the
described as a lamentable picture of a .
be informed of the terms which have been agreed go of repletion. He
upon Exche uer suffern under the pan
between Feruk Kuala and her Majesty's plenipotentiary. ,spoke ofq I g applies of for relief at a time when
In either case the silence of the Government may then be the thet numhetroeuxs app
expect an excess of revenue over ex.
broken, and every particular respecting the negotiations endciotnun rYanmdlfre bestowed upon ase great commiseration
and the circumstances which preceded hostilities P re'
• . . which I should be placed daring the
can then for the position in
'on• Sir, I accept with great gratie
be communicated to Parliament. It may happen, first weeks of the eosin •
even of hon. friend. At the
if peace should be concluded, that • trade the sympathy my taskwhich same
time
themcaircumstances
I cannot but feel that
the l have to perform
under which hostilities were undertakeneethaeble than
to be such as to justify the Government fory
nothavingappear this yam
earperarfoorermed in former years, when corresponding
I had t at;
comto-
rnenced warlike operations, and then it will be whisiehholuee to agree to increased taxation, when I had to
opento
my hon. friend the member for Aylesbur any represent to them the necessity of imposing additional burs
other member, to raise a discus • y,
orsubject dens- upon the country, and when I had to ask them to
discussion upon the
without any danger of that injury sanction loans and vote Exchequer-bills forme purpose of
to the public
whicii mightinterest , .
covering a large deficiency in the annual ome. That,
now arise. (Hear, hear. ) _ • is an additional reason
why I should not be unwilling
Mr, GLADSTONE—I confess that it wars to we sir,