The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-27 00:00:00

THE SUN,7LONDOII, SATURDAY 'EVENING, APRIL 2 1861,

formation which at all corroborates the statement of the
Belgian newspapers. The hon. and learned gentleman oppo-
site asked a question respecting the discussions that have
gone on between the British and Brazilian Governments as
to certain claims made on the part of British subjects. He
is quite right in saying that the conferences have been sus-
pended. They were suspended in consequence of the Bra-
zilian Government putting forward claims which we think
totally inadmissible--namely, that losses sustained by cer-
tain Brazilian subjects engaged in the slave trade, and
whose ships were captured an disposed of under the Act
of 1845, should be part of the losses dealt with by the Com-
mission. We contend that these captures have nothing
whatever to do with the matters for which the Commission
was appointed. We hold that no question can arise with
regard to what was done una',er the Act of Parliament ; that
we were acting within our owN powers, and are not ac-
oountable to Brazil in respect of this; and we therefore en-
tirely repudiate the claim of Brazi; to mix up the matter in
the questions which were to be considered by the mixed
Commission. An answer to that effect went not long ago
to our Minister in Brazil. We have not yet received the
answer of the Brazilian Government, but lam sure the
hon. and learned gentleman will see that while the ques-
tion is pending it is not consistent with the public interest
to give papers respecting it.
Colonel DICKSON, referring to a previous ques-
tion as to the fate of Captain Brabazon, urged the Govern-
ment to order a most searching inquiry as to the
possible fate of that gallant officer. He hoped the
noble lord would reconsider his decision, or he should be
afraid that if it got abroad that he was impressed with the
idea that there was no hope left it might weaken the exer-
tions of those persons who might be employed in discover-
ing the real circumstances of the death of Capt. Brabazon.
He implored the noble lord to use every means which the
influence and wealth of England placed at his command to
solve the doubt which existed, and if possible to restore a
noble son to his afflicred family and a gallant officer to his
country. (Hear.)
FLOGGING CHILDREN AND OTHERS IN
PRISON.

Mr. KINNAIRD asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether his particular attention had
been drawn to the returns of la: t session and this session on
the subject of flogging children and others in prison, and
that in particular in 375 cases in three years out of 854 they
had becn inflicted by order of visiting justices in 52 prisons
ont of 137; and further whether it was true that children
of tender age had received severe punishment for shooting
in a cell and other trivial offences ?
THE APPROPRIATION OF SEATS BILL.

also inflicted by visiting magistrates of prisons, for prison
offences. With such offences there was obviously a diffi-
culty to know how they should be dealt with, because a
punishment must then be inflicted on a person who was
already in a state of punishment, and some addition to the
ordinary means of punishment must be found. The law
conferred on visiting justices this power of ordering flog-
ging for prison offences. As had been correctly stated by
the hon. baronet opposite, it could only be done on an in-
quiry before the visiting magistrates, evidence being taken,
and a proper record of that investigation made, which was
accessible to the prison inspector when he came round. He
was not aware that any cases of excessive punishment by
flogging had been reported by any of the inspectors, or
made subject of special complaint to the Home-office.
If it had been so, it would undoubtedly have been
attended to. The complaint against the present prac-
tice therefore rested entirely on the return now
on the table, from which it certainly appeared that
in many cases boys of tender age had been subject
to flogging by the cat, which was no doubt a severe instru-
ment, though it did not correspond with the description
just now given. One of those boys, at the New Bailey,
Salford, was thus punished for repeatedly shouting' in his
cell, after being cautioned by the watchman not to do so,
that being the seventh offence since he was in the prison .
There was a boy of eleven, who received 36 lashes with a
birch rod, for the same thing, being his ninth similar of-
fence in four months. These were probably very incorri-
gible boys, who had given great trouble to the,prison au-
thorities. The house might consider if it would alter the
law, and lay some restriction on the discretion of the visit-
ing magistrates, or define the instrument and the number
of lashes. But it was not competent for the Home Secre-
tary to issue a circular and lay down a general rule; under
the existing law; though he could inquire into any parti-
oular case of cruelty, and take steps in consequence. He
would consider if it was possible to deal with the subject.
(Cheers.) It appeared to be more frequent in some prisons
than others, but that might be owing sometimes to the
defective construction of the prison.
Col. NORTH thought this flogging the most tyrannical
and brutal thing he ever heard of in his life. In the army,
the flogging of a boy with a cat of nine tails was never
heard of, and no soldier could be sentenced by a court-
martial to more than fifty lashes. They might talk of
brutality in the army, but here was far greater brutality.
In the army they could not flog without the preliminary
of a court-martial, but here a magistrate might go into
a pris )n, and flog as many gentlemen as he liked.
(Laughter.) Some of the cases in these returns were of
the most trivial nature. A little boy was flogged for
tearing his catechism; another, for throwing water on a
prison officer. Twenty or thirty men were flogged in one
gaol, and the governor said they were flogged lightly, and
no blood was drawn. This looked as if men were flogged
merely for amusement. He would not give this power to
any magistrates.
CASE OF COLONEL KEOGH.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under •
stood to reply to Mr. Whiteside, that the above case ap-
peared to be one requiring investigation, and if an inquiry
were demanded, he should not feel justified in opposing
such a proceeding. It appeared according to the right hon.
gentleman's statement to be held that no misconduct of
officers of a court of justice could be punishable, short of
public fraud. The ease of Mr. Barber had been referred to,
but that was a case of great difficulty, and the wrong, if
any, was traceable through its servants to the executive,
who were responsible to the legislature. In this case the
executive had no direct authority. With respect to the
Irish case referred to, there was a means of remedying it
out of the funds of the court.
THE BUDGET.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply
to Mr. Ayrton, said it would be quite out of his power to
bring in a bill legalising the budget until the house had in
the first instance acceded to the resolutions.

Mr. AY RTON intimated that last session the bill was
introduced in the first instance, and then in a committee of
ways and means the resolutions were proceeded with. It was
now proposed for the first time to tax three particular classes
of the community. and it was desirable to know why these
classes were to be made special objects of taxation.
STAFF ASSISTANT-SURGEONS.

Lord BURGHLEY asked the Under Secretary of State
for War why a large number of staff assistant-surgeons had
been placed upon half-pay; and how long it was probable
that the state of half-pay, as regarded these officers, would
be continued ? The noble lord read a letter describing the
case of a gentleman (a staff aszistant-surgeon) who, having
gone to considerable expense for an Indian outfit, was sud-
denly ordered on half-pay, to his great loss and disappoint-
ment.

SECOND ASSISTANT-SURGEONS.
General LINDSAY (for Colonel North) called attention
to the reduction of the second assistant-surgeons of regi-
ments of the line.
Mr. T. G. BARING said that what he had stated on a
former evening was that no second assistant-surgeons were
to be placed on half-pay, and the medical officers of the
Guards having been provided for in the estimates would not
be disturbed. The regimental second assistant surgeons
were not included in the estimates. It was considered by the
Secretary of State for War and the Commander-in. Chief
that the regiments on home service did not require second
assistant-surgeons. It was unfnrtnnate that it should be
necessary to place a certain number of medical officers on
half-pay, but at the same time the uovernment meta uut
recommend the house to vote more money for any branch of
the service than was absolutely required. In consequence
of the Chinese war having terminated and for other reasons,
the number of junior medical officers had been reduced by
29, who were placed on half-pay, but who would be again
employed at the earliest opportunity.
OYSTER DEEP-SEA FISHING.
Mr. CAVE asked the President of the Board of Trade
whether there was any prospect of inducing the French Go-
vernment to consent to an extension of the time allowed for
the deep-sea fishing in the English Channel. It would be
remembered that a fishing convention had been entered
into in 1839 with France for the mutual benefit of the two
nations—one essential arrangement being that foreign fisher-
men should not approach within three miles of the English
coasts. Since that time, however, oyster beds had been
discovered in the deep sea in mid channel ; and while it was
known that the French took no interest in this deep-sea
fishing, our fishermen were actively employed in it. He
believed, if the French Government had the matter brought
fairly before them, they would not object to our fishing for
oysters in mid chann6l during the fenced months.

Mr. M. GIBSON said that in consequence of the repre-
sentations made to the Government on this subject, France
was invited to consider whether it would be desirable to
modify some of the provision's of the fishing convention in
order to permit oyster fishing to be carried on in the deep
sea during the fenced months of May, June, and July.
The French Government, however, had come to the con-
clusion that it would not be to the interest of the oyster
fishermen themselves to allow any fishing to be carried on
in the fenced months.
CATAIN MACDONALD'S CASE.
Mr. -v. Esc-131.1,Y tecalled attention to Captain Mac-
donald's case, and hepea that the noble lord would read
the papers laid before the house through carefully, as he
had dune every word d them, before he made any further
representations to the Prussian Government. It was very
evident that the noble lord and the hon. and learned gen-
tleman who followed him, had not read these papers
through. The fact was, the less we said about the affair
the better; and he hoped so trumpery a case would not be
made the
nations.
means
Hag bitter feelings between the
two
The
in
fault was not all on one side,
nams(se of fro o fostering
for Captain Macdonald used violence, as the witnesses de-
posed upon oath, and the English residents at Bonn ap-
plied the term "cowardly" to the Proeureur du Roi. The
Prussian Government bad severely reprimanded the Pro-
cureur du Roi, and awarded him the- strongest punish-
ment they could, that of absolute dismissal ; while, to the
English Government they had made an apology which was
almost humiliating. They had declared, that as violence
was proved to have been used by Captain Macdonald, they
had acted considerately towerds him by punishing him for
the minor offence of rudeness to the official, rather than
give him a long imprisonment for the act of assault
proved.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Sir S. NOR I'HCOn postponed his motion on this sub.
jest till that day week.

- Mr. M‘MAIION obtained leave to bring in a bill to con-
solidate and amend the statutes relating to the procedure
of County Courts.

LAW OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this bill were agreed to.
RAILWAY COMPANIES MORTGAGE TRANSFER

(SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill as amended was considered.
The house then adjourned.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—APRIL 25.
STREET RAILS.
Motion made and question put, "That a Select Committee
-be appointid to inquire into the propriety of establishing
a mode of Public Conveyance, by means of Iron rails, in
Streets and Highways." The house divided—Ayes, 20;
Noes, 40.

• AY£q —2O.
Barnes, Thomas Ileygate, W. U Russell, Sir Wm.
Blake, T. A. Kinnaird, lion. A. Westhead, B.
Buller, J. W. Lewis, J. Harvey Whalley, G. Jr.
Cobbett, J. M. 3PCann, J. . White, Jas.
Dunne, Col. Maguire, J. F.
Fermoy, Lord Monson, W. J.
Hankey, Thomson O'Brien P.
Ifennessy, J. P. Ponsonby, A.

TELLERS.
Brady, John
Woods, Henry

PARLIAMENT. Ilt 1 COMMITT.EEZ

Sir H. Willoughby—What powers have the
Admiralty of seeing that the moneys of the State
are properly applied as regards wages or the ex-
penditure for materials ?
The Duke of Somerset—They must act through
their controller, but the superintendents of the
dockyards are constantly communicating with the
board as to what is going on in these establish-
ments.

Sir H. Willoughby—Did you not express to the
commission your conviction that the controller had
not sufficient authority in the dockyards ?
The Duke of Somerset—l did. I said he had not
sufficient means of using his authority and know-
ing what was going on, and 1 think there ought to
be another shipwright officer to assist him, acting
directly under him.

Sir H. Willoughby—Do you concur in the state-
ment of Sir B. Walker, that during the time be
was surveyor there was no controlling power in
the dockyards—that there were too many parties
communicating with the dockyards to prevent any
single control. Do you concur in that, or do you
think the complaint was an error ? .
The Duke of Somerset—lt would be impossible
for me to give a correct notion of what was going
on ten years before I was at the Admiralty. My
impression was that the controller had not sufficient
power, and therefore I increased it.
Sir H. Willoughby—Sir B. Walker complained
at the end of 1853 that out of 114 letters forwarded
relating to the building of ships only ten were seen
by his clerks. Under such circumstances and such
a system, how is it possible to carry on the busi-
ness in a satisfactory manner when the head of a
department is not made aware of the state of affairs
in the dockyards?
The Duke of Somerset—lf I were to give an
opinion on that point, I should say that bis own
shipwright officers were greatly to blame in not
calling his attention to matters which they must
have known.

Sir H. Willoughby—ls there not a great want of
accommodation for large ships ?
The Duke of Somerset—Yes. I think there are
at present two in preparation. This is one of our
greatest wants. In 1859 my attention was called
to the fact that we were building ships for which
there were no docks sufficiently large; but the
alteration in the size of vessels has been so recent
that no charge can be brought against the late
Board of Admiralty for not having provided docks
sufficiently large.
The committee then adjourned.

THE TRANSPORT SERVICE,
The select committee appointed in the House of
Commons to inquire into the transport service re-
sumed their inquiry on Thursday—Mr. Lindsay in
the chair. The other members of the committee
present were Lord Clarence Paget, Admiral Dan-
combe, Admiral Sir M. Seymour, Mr. Kinnaird,
Mr. Brookes, Mr. Longfield, Mr. Dalglish, Mr.
Jackson, Mr. H. Baillie, and Mr. Caird.
Sir James Graham, M.P., was examined at con-
siderable length. He said—When I was first at the
Admiralty, in 1831, I proposed to Parliament the
abolition of the Navy Board and of the Victualling
Board, it then being a time of peace. During the
long French war no doubt it was advisable that the
two a,..parsmanta should be kept separate. In 1831
when I effected this change the Victualling Board
and the Transport Board were united, but I always
avowed my intention, in the event of a war, of re-
viving the subdivision, I returned to the Admi-
ralty in 1852, in a time of peace, and I continued
the arrangement as it had existed from 1831 to 1834.
The Russian war broke out while I was at the Ad
miralty, and I soon discovered that my original
view was right, and - that the severance was neces-
sary. I left the Admiralty in the middle of that
war, and my last act before leaving it wns to effect
the severance and to create the Transport Board.
On the return of peace the Transport Board was
abolished. The Board of Admiralty was not cog-
nisant of any supreme authority other than the
Secretary for War, and all requisitions for trans
sports for the military service were upon the respon-
sibility of the Secretary of State for War. lam of
opinion that one department should be responsible
for the transport of troops and stores until they
reach their destination. I see with surprise that
after a ship has been fitted out with the concurrence
of the military authorities and under naval respon-
sibility, and even after a charter party has been
entered into with regard to the number of men to
be conveyed, at the last moment the military com-
manding officer at the ports from which the troops
are shipped has the power entirely to change the
arrangement. No naval concurrence is required ,
but the whole arrangement may be changed within
24 hours, at the will of a military officer and at an
increase of expense to the extent of 20 per cent.
In point of fact an end is put to al: checii upon the
expense. I think that one department should
undertake all the transport duties, and be respon-
sible for them. With regard to emigration I con-
cur with the Duke of Somerset and the Duke of
Newcastle that emigration is about to collapse.
It is reduced now to about 5,000 annually; but
while emigration still continues under the direction
of a public office, I would not disturb the arrange-
ment which now exists. I believe, however, that
emigration will soon come to an end, and when that
time arrives I think the important functions now
exercised by the Emigration Commissioners in re-
ference to the execution of the Passengers' Act
should be transferred to the Board of Trade. Nor
in respect to the transport of convicts would I at
present change the existing system, for similar
reasons. At the same time I would advocate the
concentration of the whole transport service under
one department.

The Chairman—Who, in your opinion, ought to
be the responsible head of that department ?
Sir James Graham—That is a most difficult ques-
tion to answer, and one on which a great difference
of opinion exists. The Duke of Somerset is strongly
in favour of continuing it under the Admiralty, and
so also is Admiral Craigie ; but, on the other hand,
the Duke of Newcastle and Colonel Gordon are of
opinion that, in the transport of troops, direct mili-
tary control is indispensable. In my humble judg-
ment either the maintenance of it under the Admi-
ralty, or the transfer of it immediately to the
military authorities, would be infinitely better than
the continuance of the present state of things.
Great inconvenience is now experienced in a time
of peace, and there might be great danger in a time
of war.

Lord C. Paget—ls it not absolutely necessary that
the transports should be under the naval authorities
when great combined movements in a time of war
are being conducted ? Do you not think it is posi-
tively necessary that transports should be under
the immediate control and management of the officer
commanding the fleet ?
Sir James Graham—Those who advocate the
transfer of the duties to the War Department con-
template the necessity of borrowing agents from
the Admiralty on important occasions.
The Chairman—Would you place the duties in
the hands of a board ?
Sir James Graham—There is a considerable dif-
ference of opinion on that point. The Duke of
Somerset and the Duke of Newcastle, who
entertained different views as to the de-
partment
which should have the control andsuperintendence, were both of opinion that a board
was not the best authority to entrust with the
management of these matters. I think there is
great force in their objections; and yet, when I
was at the Admiralty, I did create a Transport
Board.

By Admiral Duncombe—l would not p7edge
myself that the officer at the head of the depart-
ment should in a time of peace be a naval officer.
I should probably incline to the opinion that in a
time of peace he should be a civilian, but in a time
of war he ought to have the assistance both of a
military and naval officer. I should be sorry to see
the navy without the means of transport, and Alto.

BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.
The committee met again yesterday—Mr. Hen-
ley in the chair. The other members present were
Sir M. Seymour, Admiral Duncombe, Sir J. Gra-
ham, Sir H. Willoughby, Sir J. Elphinstone, Lord
Clarence Paget, Sir F. Baring, Mr. Corry, and Mr.
Whitbread.
The Duke of Somerset, in reply to quebtions by
Sir H. Willoughby, said—l did not see the report
of the Royal Commissioners on Dockyards before it
was presented to Parliament. As regards their ob-
servations on accounts, and their recommendations
that a double entry should be furnished, I approve
of their!. The Royal Commission was requested to
go inter the cost that bad been incurred in the build-
ing and converting of ships during the last ten
years, and give their opinion whether the system
had been efficient, and whether the money expended
ron ships had been judiciously applied. They were
also directed to inquire into the system of control
and management of the dockyards, and to suggest
such changes as might render the establish-
ments more effective. Their recommendations
must be construed in reference to the inquiries
they were directed to make.
Sir H. Willoughby—The commission came to the
conclusion that the Board of Admiralty was not a
convenient mode of governing the dockyards, which
are full of manufacturing establishments and fac-
tories. Does your grace concur in that opinion+
The Duke of Somerset—No, because I think you
take a part of the business of the Admiralty sepa-
rate from all its functions. You must deal with
the Admiralty as a whole, and it is impossible to
separate the repair from the victualling of ships.
The whole must be under one department. Ethere-
fore do not agree with the recommendations of the
commissioners.