The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-30 00:00:00

regard to the steps which have been taken in India, the I
noble viscount the Governor-General has thought it right
to take every precaution in his power, and to adopt
very means to strengthen the roops available for ser-
vice. The noble earl will be glad to hear that since the
conciasion of the Persian war, which, however, he calls
not the conclusion of a war, but only a treaty, the whole
of the European troops have left Bushire, and three regi-
ments, having reached Bombay, proceeded to Calcutta,
where they arrived in an incredibly short period, and
from that place can be most expeditiously moved where
it may be deemed expedient. With regard to the second
question, I think that the noble earl looks upon this
country as being placed in a much worse position than
she is. It is manifest that it would ill become me atpre-
sent to enter into any detailed statement of the mea-
sures which her Majesty's Government may think itne-
cessary to adopt in order to strengthen the means at their
disposal, but they will take all those precautions waich
they may think necessary. I agree with the noble earl
that we should consider the subject in no spirit of exag-
gerated alarm, but I think that if, because we happen to
be at war with a portion of the Chinese Empire, and that
there is an insurrection in one part of India, we were to
take upon us to say that our alarm is suchthat we think
it necessary to prepare this country in the same way as
we should do if we were engaged in a struggle which
might end in dire calamity and disaster, we should dis-
grace ourselves in the eyes of the world. The noble earl
has alluded to my private friendship towards Lord Can-
ning. I will not allude further to that subject than to
say that I have this day received a private letter from
Lord Canning, in which he goes over allthe circumstances
of the case with the care and gravity becoming the na
ture of the subject, and the tone of that letter is such as
to give the Government the greatest confidence. ' Not-
withstanding the difficulties he writes in very good heart
and adds—and in that I am sure the noble earl will con-
cur—that hecannot be sufficiently grateful for having at
this moment had at critical places three men so admira-
bly fitted to deal with these circumstances as Sir H. and
Sir J. Lawrence and Mr. Colvin. Ido not wish to pro-
phesy, but I trust that your lordships will at all events
wait until the arrival of the next mail before you allow
it to go forth to this country and to the world that we
are reduced to such a state as that which the noble earl
has pictured. (Hear, fair.)
Lord BROUGEILI—In a case of this kind, consider-
ing our distance from the scene of events, I cannot help
thinking that it is of great importance to ascertain what
are the feelings—not merely the opinions, but the feeling
of alarm founded upon these opinions—of those who are
near the spot. ' My noble friend (Earl Granville) has
already told us that the alarm, if it ever existed, has been
nearly allayed at Calcutta. Will he also inform us, if be
can, what are the feelings in the presidencies of Madras
and Bombay? Perhaps, also, as the money-market is a
test of alarm not altogether to be overlooked, he will add
whether the funds either at Calcutta or Bombay have
felt the effect of these events.

Earl GRANVILLE—I am much obliged to my noble
and learned friend for putting the question. While the
funds in this country fell upon the receipt of this intelli-
gence, Government paper at Calcutta and Bombay has
remained at exactly the same price.
The Earl of HARD WICKE said, although the an-
swer of the noble earl opposite was such as might be ex-
pected from the Government, it had not satisfied him as
to the measure© which were 'to be taken' for giving
prompt assistance to India. His noble friend had said
that troops had been ordered to hold themselves in readi-
ness for embarcation. Considering the distance of Indip,
he was induced to ask the noble earl whether he would,
on the part of the Government, undertake to prevail
upon the Emperor of the French, of whose friendship
and alliance we heard so much, to allow our troops to be
conveyed by the French railways to Marseilles, would
order the Mediterranean fleet to meet them there and
convey them to Egypt, and induce the Pasha of that
country to allow then to go by the Red Sea. There wers
15,000 or 20,000 men at Aldershot, and it was by the
promptitude with which aid was sent to ludia that the
people would judge of the vigour and capacity of the Go-
vernment. Ile was disposed to agree with his noble friend
that the war with C'aicalsaving been commenced must be
prosecuted; but if the militia were called out for active
service it would soon form a good army for the defence of
the country, and Government would have all the regular
troops at its disposal for carrying on to a successful issue
the wars in which it might be engaged.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE bad heard with great
satisfaction the assurance given by the Lord President
as to the excellent spirit which pervaded the armies of
Madras and Bombay. That assurance coincided with
everything which he had heard upon the subject. He
hoped that recent events would lead to the reconsidera-
tion of the system upon which the army of Bengal was
recruited, because he believed that system was a prin-
cipal, if not the proximate cause of the disturbances.
The subject then dropped.
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—LORD PLUNKET

- AND THE EXAMINER NEWSPAPER.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE complained of an aL
tack made- by the Examiner on Lord Plunket for his
vote on Minister's Money. That attack on so inoffen-
sive a prelate was most uncalled for. Ho read the article,
and moved that the printer of the paper should be called
to the bar of the house.
Earl GRANVILLE deprecated the attack, but could
not think the motion of the noble earl a serious one.
The Earl of DERBY complained that the Govern-
ment treated the matter so lightly. The attack was a
gross libel, and the writer had no idea of the duties of
the, Peer or the feelings of the man of honour. The arti-
cle assumed that because Lord Plunkett's father was
made a peer by the Whivt, that the son ought to sacri-
fice his conscience to his party. The press had no right
to call in question their motives for exercising their
privilege of voting. Still, he would not give tax printer
the honour of being called before them.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the best
thing they could do would be to dismiss the matter from
their minds, and ta go home and burn the article.
• The Earl of AIALMESI3URY agreed that the man
who could write such an article ought not to set his foot
so near thefrlordships as the bar. Still, he thought the
Government was bound to take more noticeof the matter.
Lord BROUGHAM complained of the unjust fashion
in which newspapers reported. A friend of his bad once
talked of a "damp, cold church." The newspapers
made him say, "a damned old church." lie wrote to
correct the report. The editor inserted the letter, but
added that he had implicit reliance on the accuracy of
the reporter. •• • •
Lord DENMAN complainel of the omissions of re-
ports, and that the press was always with the Govern-
ment.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
Lord RAVENSWORTH, in moving for returns and
correspondence, urged upon the Government the neces-
sity of establishing harbours of refuge on the north-east
coast. • -
Lord STANLEY saw no objection to the return,
but he could not Feo how it was to be given. He there-
fore proyosed that the return should be confined to the
money expended and the amount required to complete
the works in question,
The return, as amended, was then ordered to be made.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT

Treasury what arrangements had 'been made to supply encounter the peril before us, and to prevent the evil
the interruption in the Steam Postal Contract Service : consequences which may be apprehended.
.with Australia, in consequence of the accident to the I Mr. V. SMITH—I rise, Sir, readily to respond, as far
as the occasion will permit, to the call of the right hon.
mail steam-packet Oneida, and whether the mail
due in the next month might be expected in I ,
sea i gentle ~
_and certainly
route by Cape Horn. Also, whether it were true, no one can feel the least sur-
prise, considering the grave intelligence which has come
the proper course at Suez, or by the long
as formally stated in the Sydney newspapers, that from India, that a gentleman occupying so prominent a
1
the same portion of tho machinery of the steamer Oneida position in public affairs as the right hon. gentleman
which broke down on her passage with the first mail, should make some inquiries respecting the state of that
between King George's Sound and Point de Galle, had
country, In what has fallen from the right hon. gentleman
little togainsay or contradict,
I have
Government transport, and patched up with iron plates
been previously damaged whilst she was employed as a y•
at Glasgow before her departure upon the Australian perhaps, of the observation, that the Russian war was
mail service ; further,, whether such damage was re- conducted entirely for the security of our Indian empire.
p o rstierdct.o the
WOOD,Go eirnn
be
at
bbs ye
otoheeoAf
tdbme i
sr aelet yr e
tSaur ryvteoy
the Sir, the Russian war was not conducted entirely for the?
Treasury, said that the
security of our Indian empire. If it had been we should
Oneida to bring home the mails,
still be waging it ; because I believe that if any persons
tabkuetn tihte placeycas iomfpo the
s.
had
sible for him to answer what arrangements were sorry for the conclusion of that war, they were
had been made for bringing home the next mail, the residents of India and the Indian Government.
because that depended on the arrangements that had They would have wished that Power to have
been made at Sydney. The Oneida was surveyed by an
been i
been beaten infinitely further from the approaches to
infinitely more thwarted than it was, and to have
Admiralty surveyor, and was reported (as we understood
Sir Charlestaken tpo
fsoaryt)buenfit servicefar service,was and
unable wt ito stwataes.the Indian empire. The right hon. gentleman asked the she
INDIA.. Government what advices they bad received from India,
On the motion for the house going into committee ofthey put
an what preparations were about to make to
an end to the evils occurring there ; and the right hon.
supply, gentleman added, in a manner befitting the occasion,
Mr. DISRA.ELI rose and said,—The house will and which did honour to himself, that the House of
hardly feel surprised if, in the present state of public Commons would be prepared to place at the disposal of
affairs, before we go into Committee of Supply, or dis. her Majesty any means whatever that might be required
cuss any of the motions of which notice has been given, I
to bring the war to an end, (Cheers.) Her Majesty's
i Government have been fully alive to that, and, feeling
make some inquiry of her Majesty's Government re- confidence in the House of Commons, they have imme-
specting the present condition of our Indian empire. It diately decided upon sending out reinforcements of Euro-
is only a very few years since we were involved in a peen troops to India—(cheers)—but perhaps it would be
war which, if not of unexampled magnitude, was of an
satisfactory that I should state with the utmost frank-
importance seldom equalled in our history—a war in
ness and with something of detail what those reinforce-
meats are. In the middle of next month I hoe—the tran-
which this country made very great sacrifices of blood
sports being provided—that there will sail fromp this coun-
and treasure. The public debt and the taxation of the try nearly 10,000 men. Those forces were partly in pre:
country were considerably increased, and some of the best paration before. 7,690 of them consist of reliefsand recruits
lives of our fellow-citizens were lost in that encounter, to the Queen's army, and the complement of the East
India94o Company'sEb recruits brings up the whole number to
Still the nation never for a moment murmured at that
n 1 e
rt
thet a that so
tn
oo
ft alt,
Parliament hones The
tb
ei s probablyrover
Government
e natwbaar es
great sacrifice. The country was enthusiastic, and Parlia- that 9 ti.
anent was unanimous in supporting her Majesty and her no right to provide more than a certain number of
Majesty's-Government in the late war with Russia. But Queen's troops for India without the application of the
I believe that both the people and the Parliament were Court of Direct( re The Court of Directors immediately
greatly induced to take the high line of conduct which upon receipt of this intelligence determined to make such
auporcdaotrieen ;soand I need scarcely say that if they had
they pursued on that occasion because they believed
the Government would have called
that the policy of Russia had a tendency to endanger ' upon Parliament to give them fresh power for
our Indian empire. Well, sir, no sooner had peace been the purpose. The Court of Directors, however,
proclaimed, and happily proclaimed, between Russia and willingly came forward, and they have applied for 4,000
fresh men, so that I hope that in the course of a very
England, than we found ourselves involved in another
war—a war with Persia, For a long time the cause of
short time 14,000 European troops will be on their way
from these shores to India. I hope that the hou-e will
that war was unknown, and its object, to say the least not be carried away by any notion that we exaggerate
of it, perplexing. But the country and Parliament sub- the danger because we have determined uponsending
matted with great forbearance to the want of inforaia- out these troops. It is a measure of security alone with
tion which then prevailed ttpon the subject, because respect to the danger to be apprehended. I cannot agree
with theil dright hon. gentleman that our Indian empire is
there was a general impression that the relations between
empire is
by
.the present disaster. I say that our Indian
Persia and England were of a nature very difficult and de• is not imperilled, and I hope that in a short time
licate ; that the interests of our Indian empire were in- the disaster, dismal as it undoubtedly is, will be effec-
volved in aright appreciation and management of those tuelly suppressed by the force already in that country.
relations ; and that the independence of Persia must be (Hear') I need not detail to the house the transactions
maintained in order to for m a barrier bet ween our rivals and which have taken place, because every gentleman has
in the journals of the day a pretty faithful narra-
tive of them ; but I might say that I am proud of the
our Indian empire. Well, sir, the last document which
completed the peace between this country and Russia has
the ratification only recently been signedmanner in which the Indian service have acted. I think
-, of the peace
between this country and Persia has been only that no better examplecould be found in civil life than
recently that which was set by Mr. Colvin and the two Law-
laid on the table ; and then we found ourselOes involved
rences in Oude and the Punjab, and the GovernonGene-
in a third war—a war with China. It could not be said
rat has expressed his delight and satisfaction at having
that the Chinese could invade our Indian empire ; it
to act with men of such sound and vigorous judgment.
could not be said that it was necessary to maintain
(Cheers.) Everything that can be done is being done in
China as a barrier between our rivals—our enemies—and
India, and troops have been already marched up to sur-
consequenceour Indian empire. But it was said to be of the utmost
round Delhi. Luckily the outrage has taken place there,
that we should not permit for a moment the
slightest indignity or supposed indignity to be endured because it is notorious that Delhi may be easily sur-
rounded, so that if we could not reduce the place by
by our flag in China, because it was of the first import-
force we could by famine. But I have no doubt that it
ance that the reputation of England in all Eastern coun-
tries S will be reduced by force immediately that a man of the
should be maintained inviolate, otherwise our In-
empire would be endangered. Influenced by this well-known vigour of action of my gallant friend Gen.
policy and by these reasons, the majority of the house Anson appears before the walls of Delhi ; and, at the
, date of the mail leaving, we had ad vices that General
and perhaps of the country, have contentedly been in- Anson would shortly be in ample force before the town,
volved within the last five years in three great Eastern
wars ; because, however great the sacrifice, however with infantry, cavalry, and artillery. Unfortunately, the
mail left on the 28th ult., and I cannot, therefore, ap•
great the exertions necessary, however great the call upon prise the house that the fort of Delhi has been razed to
our resources. there was a general opinion that nothing the ground ; but I hope that ample retribution has by
could be shunned or spared when the safety of our this time been indicted on the mutineers. The right hon.
Treat empire was at stake. Well, now, after these gentleman proceeded to inquire what were the causes of
ereat exertions, see find the existence, of our Indian em- the disaffection, and he dwelt upon a good many of
pire is indeed imperilled—not by the action of any foreign them which have been bruited about in different
powers, whose movements both as regards.place and societies ; but when he asks whether the Government
time would require a considerable interval to elapse be-
fore they could take effect upon our position, but our has been advised of those causes and has failed to remedy
them, I can only say that no application has been made
vies and machinations of our declared foes, but by
ledian empire is now endangered, not by the manceun- - from the local governments till now for an increase of
i vernal enemies, in a form that we could not possibly have force, and I may acid that the remedy which is always
expected. We learn suggested for every evil is an increase of the Esropean
ancient ca ital of within
ostan is the last 48 hours that the force. The right hon. gentleman has referred, interalia,
p Hied no longer in our posses- to the withdrawal of military men for the civil service,
-mon. And in whose possession is it? It is in the posses- That has been the habitual custom of the Indian Govern-
',Mon of our insurrectionary and rebellious troops. Surely
!slant for a long series of years ; but whenever a regiment
'this is a position of affairs which requires us to demand from her Majesty's Ministers that they should throw is called into action on foreign or domestic service, it is some light upon it, give us some infermation as to its the duty of all military men who are engeged in the civil causes, and, above all, tell us what they propo •to service immediately to join their regiments. Another
do at this emergency. (Hear, hear.) Sir, the information cause, and a very delicate one, is the alleged interference that has reached us within the last 24 hours co with the religion of the native troops. There certainly
me:mini- has arisen an impression among the troops that there
canes the most important events that have occurred,
was. to be a general conversion of the natives, and the
certainly in my public life, and, I should think, in feeling of insubordination broke out first in the itth regi-
that of most present. Whatever may be the var went, by the refusal of the men to bite the ne W cartridges,
which were supposed to be greased with an animal sub-
elle views and emotions which members of this house or
stance which they abhor. Those and other causes have
the country generally may entertain at this intelligence, I
am quite sure there is one predominant sentiment to c incurred, particularly in the Bengal army, to produce
which all others, however important, must be subordi-
nated, and that is a determination to support the Save- results which are undoubtedly deserving of the deepest
reign and the Government in all thosemeas consideration, but I am not aware that they have even
dres which so
grave and critical an emergency been brought so prominently before the Government as
may require. (Cheers.)
lam quite sure that the spirit of this country is so high, to justify a charge of neglect aeainst the Government for
its applitida retned y to them. No doubtthe Bengal
its resources are so great, . that there is nothing the
people are not prepared to endure, no expenditure which
army is the one chiefly animated by this kind of disaffection they are not prepared to incur, and no effort which they owing partly to theenlistment in it of the higher class of
are not prepared to make in order to maintain that Sepoye and to other causes which will require and will
empire wh ch it is the boast of this country so long to receive the most anxious and careful investigation. The
right hon. genteman alluded to some other matters which
have possessed, and which is one of the greatest sources I
had rather that he had omitted, such as an alleged
of our wealth, our power, and our autheray. (Hear, difference between the Governor-General and the Corn-
hear.) But, if I have not imperfectly expressed the mander-in-Chief. lam quite aware that the subject has
general feeling of the house, I hope it is not unrea-
sonable in me to inquire of her Majesty's Minister, been bruited about in private circles, but of my own
-whether they are prepared to respond to those send- knowledge I know nothing of it. I have always heard
tenants in a manner congenial—whether they are prepared
that those gentlemen in private speak in the highest pea-
irla manner adequate to the occasion to carry these sable terms of each other, and lam not aware that there feelings into action. I think, sir, we should not be doing were such differences between them as might not beallowed between all men acting together in public life.
our duty if we I)st a moment before making this inquiry
Tof the Government. I should be glad therefore to hear Then the last question which the right hon, gentleman
to-night that, whether as regards their power or their asked was, whether the Governor-General had not
actually resigned. Resign in such a crisis as this !
promptitude, those measures will be taken which are
calculated to vindicate the honour and authority of this Why, sir, I should imagine that there was no one lesslikely to allow such a thought to enter his head, and I
country, and to maintain our interests in India. I think, am happy to state that neither on this occasion nor on
sir, that is the first and paramount inquiry which under
these circumstances we are bound to make of her Ma- any previous occasion has my noble friend tendered his jesty's Government ; and I think it is one on which we resignation, Lord Canning has behaved in this etner-
gency with the vigour and judgment which I should
have a right to expect a frank communication. But I
should not be performing what I deem my duty as a
always have anticipated. (Cheers.) His letters show member of this house if I paused here and restedsatisfied no want of calmness, no lack of confidence. He says
with such an inquiry alone. I think we have a right to that he is certain that he shall be able to put this revolt
expect from the Government that they should tell us too- down, and he adds that when he has done so he shallhe causes which have led
night what in their opinion is the cause of these
reat turn his mind to ascertaining t
disasters. This calamity has not bean of a sudden nature; to it, and take the best means for remedying them.
there have been, and for no inconsiderable period, dark There has been no lukewarmness on his part, no back-
rumours from India which have made men anxious and wardness, no shilly-shallying. His letter breathes that
thoughtful. There has been an occurrence of many
noble and generous mine. I have no hesitation in pro-
not - calm confidence and self-possession which best become a
plexing incidents in that country which, no doubt, LI ' phesying that my noble friend will prove himself not have been lost upon the attention and consideration
per-
of men charged will the responsible duty of adminis- in-0y equal to the occasion, and when people talk of the
tering the affairs of a great empire. I wont, therefore to panic which exists in India the best possible test of that
know not only what in the opinion of the Government probably is that delicate barometer of the state of public
has been the main cause of these calamitous events, but feeling—the funds. They have not been dis urbed, and I
whether they were forewarned. I wish to know whether believe that the Company's paper remains in exactly the
in, their opinion the cause is political or religions, who-- same state as it was before these occurrences took place.
, ther it has originated in the maladministration of our The right hon. gentleman is aware that to enter into
affairs or in some burst of fanaticism which ought per- too much detail would not be wise on the present oc•
haps to have been foreseen even if it could not have been oasion. (Hear, hear.) I could, if it were necessary,
prevented. I wish to know what has been the nature of detail to the house; every spot at which troops are quar-
the communications received by the Government from the tered, and every arrangement- which regards the Pun-
highest authorities in India, m'liiary and civil, upon this jab, Bengal, and all other parts of India. There are
subject. I wish to know whether it be true or untrue that troops in India equal to any emergency, and, as a proof
months ago, the highest military authority in India of the truth of this statement, the house need only turn
warned her Majesty's Ministers of the unsatisfactory to the conduct of the troops during the Persian war—
state of our army there. I wish to know whether there troops whom General Outram described to be in as fine
have been placed before the ministry statements and a condition as any troops in the world. On the arrival
complaints that our army in India is under officered.
of some of those troops at Bombay they were imme-
I wish to know whether it has been represented to diately shipped to Calcutta, thence to be conveyed in
her Majesty s Government that the habit of employ-
aab
Iwo boats trse
frankuopf thea id anythingBi
nGanges.
e r ee l
st eo
explanationt
respectingh e vicinity
as
ofiwph
oi
csDhs
iebll
ihe ill.
oa
Lir Ie t
hoa
offmeprnreoodt.
'
ing our regimental officers in civil an I diplomatic
services, without substituting men of equal experience
t e eof
and rank in their places, has exercised an injurious in- sent occasion. (Hear, hear.) As regards the allusion to
fluence upon the discipline and the spirit of the army. I
believe thatxistence in the state of India, I do not
wish to know whether the civil and the military autho- any dangeranger does exist further than that any
rities of India have been in accord as to the information outbreak may happen periodically in India from fanati-
i resent outbreak will be. Therefore, I anticipate no
they have given and the representations they have made cism or other causes, to be put down as surely as the
—whether the highest civil authority in India is not o
agreed with the highest military authority there in the danger,o but I express no surprise or objection on account
policy which he recommended and the views which he f the right hon. gentleman, under the existing grave
wished to enforce. I would ask even her Majesty's circumstances in India, and considering the loss of life
Ministers whether the Governor-General of India at this which has taken place, accompanied by horrors I should
moment has resigned the high office which he held, be sorry to detail, having brought the subject under the
These are subjects which I think, under the circum-
notice of the house, and called for an explanation, which
stances, her Majesty's Ministers should not shrink from I hope I have tendered, however imperfectly, with all
frankly meeting. (Hear.) I have refrained from entering frankness, (Hear, hear.)
into any controversial question. If it be necessary that SAVINGS BANKS FUNDS.
the Government of India should be brought under the Oct going into committee of supply,
c insideration of this house, no doubt a fitting opportu- Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the Chancellor of the
nity will be offered for doing so. I have confined my- Exchequer for an explanation as to the purchase of
quay-bills ; and as to tnef-iale of 2,334,030/. Three per
a if to asking questions which% believe anxiously occupy 287,600/. Three per Cent. Stock, and 2,470,0001. Pxclie•
Cent. Stock, and 111,0001. F h till
the public attention at this moment, which appear to me q
to. be proper and fair inquiries to address to this Govern- Exchequer-bills, equer- 1 s,belonging to
ment, and to which I trust I shall receive a frank and full the trustees of savings bank in the year from the 20th of
reply. I would presume before I sit down, sir, to make Nov., 1855, to the 20th Nov. 1856. Tne hon, gentle-
only one observation on the state of India. No one can for
net
man, in a lengthy speech, charged the Chancellor of the
hilasdiclssetdbt
a moment shut his oyes to the extreme peril to-which at Exchequer with having entered upon a system of i nan•
ttoicbsutoyc4kp-joEbxbeihngsq.
this moment our authority is subject iu that country ;
before rsavingsthey
became
udl. nu
de
s
but I cannot nay, little as my confidence has ever been
)n the Government of India, that I take those despairing and had thereby sent them l h '
up to 6s, prem., which was
or desperate views with respect to our position in that' ' merely a fictitioue value.
country which in moments of danger and calamity are too The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE • QUER said he
often prevalent. I would express my opinion—an opt- had been justified both by law and by recedent in what
nien weich I have before expressed in this house—that he had done, and maintained that both pthe savings banks
the tenure by which we hold India is not a frail tenure ; funds and the public had bens fitted by the transactions
but when we consider that that great country is tuba- alluded to.
kitedar by 25 nations different in race, diff rent in religion Mr. MALINS concurred '
in the complaint of the hon
id different in latignage, I think it is not easy,'member for Kendal •
perhaps (Sir H, Willow
"ii not • 'oughby), and said it was
possisle, for such heteroeneous elements to fuse unjustifiable in a Cabinet •
Minister toebe " rigaincs the
seto perfect combination. Everything, •
however, is pos. market" with the public money, b
shle, every d•
ci--nt or negligent
ilis,,aster is practicable, if there be an ineffi- Mr. G. C. GLYN defended the Rots of the Chancellor,
oint Government. It is to prevent such but nevertheless thought that the'
evils that Ig
think the House of Commons is performing should be limited, the eaving banpkorserof that Minister
its highest duty if it
fund at his
~. disposal
the intellig_
ce - '
everage was about 35, nOO,OOOl.
en has arrived—intelligence which has pro- The CHANCELLOP
tinged great alsrtn in • of the EXCHEQUER ()wri-
the capital of her Majesty's em• pained that be bad " Fire—of inviting her been misunderstood, and he was
, Majesty's Ministers frankl to allowed to ex lain -
express to Parliament what, in their opinion,chase-. e she nature of the operation of the ;sur-
of Exche
is the cause of the get , .
• t ca.anaity that has ' riin th
ee market" had been applied to him. It was
concurred, aed, above all, what are the means •
which not agoq
they intend t) take—and at once to take—in order
to mark , b
, nation of varying the securities or influencing the
_,e/ y a buying and selling in the market, but a Sim-

friend
would

ple investment by the Savings Banks Commissioners,
which it was considered advantageous to make with the
surplus money in their hands.
After some remarks from Mr. tSPOONER and from
Mr. MALINS in explanation,
Mr. AYRTON denied that the act of Parliament re-
ferred to was passel to give Chancellors of the Ex-
chequer the authority exercised by them for the benefit
of those who had no interest in the fund. There could
be no doubt but that the saving bank fund had been di-
minished by these operations one million, and it was high
time that the course pursued should be discontinued.
The subject dropped.
CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION.
Mr. RICH, notwithAandinff an appeal from the Chan-
cellor of the Ezahequer, proceeded to draw the attention
of the house to the report of the commission on the civil
service superannuation fund, and expressed a strong opi-
nion against the conclusions to which the commissioners
had come—that the deductions now levied should he re-
mitted, though the superannuations continued to be paid.
Lord NAAS complained of the unfair conduct of Mr.
Rich, in forcing the question on at the present time,
though he knew well enough that he had a motion stand-
ing on the books for the discussion of this subject to-
morrow. He hoped the house would not follow the hon.
gentleman in thus forestalling the discussion.
Mr. LABOUCHERE also recommended the house
not to go into the question now.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Government would
take an early opportunity of saying whether they agreed
with the report of the commission or not.
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
The house then went into committee of supply.
A vote of 48,8651. was proposed for the department of
science and art, including the expenses of the geological

survey.
Mr. E WART pointed out the inconvenience which
resulted from placing the department of science and art
under the control and supervision of the Board of Trade,
and hoped in future to see it treated in connection with
the Board of Education.
Mr. BLACK complained that so large a portion of the
vote was proposed to be expended in England, and so
small an amount in Scotland.
Mr. BLACKBURN was very strongly of opinion that
the expenses of the museums and schools of design un-
der this vote were far greater than they were worth.
Mr. COWPER entered into statistics showing the
operation of the different educational establishments at
Kensington, and other schools in different parts of the
country in connection with the department. With re-
spect to the value of these schools of art, there could be
no doubt that they would produce a large number of
good workmen of artistic taste. The low standard of
taste which prevailed among the workmen of the country
had been very forcibly shown by the comparative results
of the Great Exhibition of 1861, and tke schools of art
the country owed their existence to a desire to im-
Far a higher standard of art education among the work-
ing classes. At the Exhibition in Paris, in 1856, the
progress made by the English workman was marked in
a most extraordinary degree; and, among other things,
a sideboard manufactured by Messrs. Jackson and Gra-
bens was held to be superior to any work exhibited by
French manufacturers. In porcelain and in several
other branches of our manufactures great and most irn-
portant results had been obtained from the education
provided in the schools of drawing and design. With
respect to the smallness of the grants for Scotland, it
shoeld be borne in mind that the Government had sanb-
tice d the exp. el tore of a large one for the purpose of a
site of land in Edinburgh on which to erect a new tech-
nological museum, with training schools.
Lord ELCHO concurred in the propriety of the vote,
and believed that qe schools of design had been pro•
ductive of considerable advantage to the improvement
of industrial art, and suggested that the various
mineralogical museums now existing in Jernyn-street,
the British Museum, and South Kensington should be
collected into one museum rather than be separated as
they now were.
Mr. DILLWYN supported the vote, and was parti-
cularly in favour of the item of charge for the Palosnto-
logical professors. He complained, however, of the ex-
penses of the management of the department. The sala-
ries of professors and assistants was over 12,0001., and
formed a very large item in the cost of the establishmcnt.
There were several other items also which appeared
much too high, and he proposed that the sum should be
reduced by 3, 768/.
Mr. SPOONER said he would certainly vote for the
amendment, but should propose to effect a still greater
reduction. During the last ten years the sum annually
voted for these objects had increased from 6,0001. to
73,0001. Where was this system to stop f The only
practical result of these debates ought to be to put a stop
at once to the issues of this money. It was right, no
doubt, for the Government to do something for the en-
couragement of art, but a check must be put to this in-
creasing expenditure. He should, therefore, move that
the sum be reduced to the amount voted last year,
making a total, with the sum already voted, of 54,0001.,
and that the present vote be therefore reduced by
20,0001.
Mr. B. HOPE should deeply regret if, especially on
such a night as that of the eve of her Majesty's visit to
the Art Treasures Exhibition at Manchester, the house
should come to a conclusion to reduce the votes by
the amount named. (A. laugh.) The site now pur-
chased at Kensington afforded a melancholy proof
of the evil results of acting first and thinking after-
wards. The collection at Kensington was to be an
educational one, everything from hemp in the rough
to majolica in the smooth. In one place there was a
gallery of art, and close by it a collection of bottles form-
ing an apothecary's shop. His hon. friend the member
for Swansea bad hit the right unit upon this hoed wbcn
he spoke of , the numerous rival art collections which
exist in the metropolis.
Mr. NAPIER bore witness to the great advantage
which had resulted from the establishment of schools of
design in Ireland, and he should be very unwilling to
give a vote which should take a single farthing from the
original amount.
Mr. LOCKE complained of the fact that the great
bulk of the people of the metropolis had no opportunity
of seeing any of these collections, or of setting their feet
within any of the buildings which had been referrei to.
If they bad not the opportunity of visiting those places
on the week days they should be permitted to do so on
the Sunday. He thought the working classes of the me-
tropolis ought to be pencnittee, at all events, to visit the
National Gallery and the British Museum on Sundays.
Mr. CONYNGHAM objected to the multiplication of
these heterogeneous collections of small and unimportant
articles, under the supposition that they tended to pro-
mote art among the people. Trafalgar-square was a
proper site fur the National Gallery, and he would advise
the Government to give the Royal Academy notice to
quit, and if any one was to go to Kensington let it be
the Royal Academy.
Mr. CO WPER said that the subject of the hon. gentle-
man's remarks had but little to do with the vote under
discussion, but he believed public encouragement did
tend to promote art. The museum had been opened from
seven to ten o'clock in the evening, lighted by gas,
c:iiefly in order that the working classes might have an
opportunity of visiting it. They had visited it in largo
numbers, and he believed that, at all events in the
winter evenings, it would be a very favourite resort. The
site had been complained of because of the distance of
South Kensington from the centre of London, but the
fact was, that the Government could find no other
vacant spot nearer at all suitable to the purpose. The
collection of patented inventions had been a great at-
traction hitherto. With regard to the salaries, they
were very low as compared with oteer similar offices.
The salary of the curator was to be but 2001. a-year.
With regard to paleontology, it was a science of the
greatest importance, and almost every state in the world
had a department devoted to its encouragement. Where
would Birmiogha:n have been but for the studies of geo-
logists, which had led to the increased production of
iron. The effect of the present objections was that s'a-
tionary ignorance was preferable to advancement and
education, a sentiment he did not believe was unani-
mously entertained in that house.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS spoke to the great benefit that
had been derived from schools of design ; but he con-
tended that they must always be supported and main-
tained in the localities where they had originally been
established. The results of our existing schools of de-
sign hal been that our manufacturers could now success-
fully compete v 4 WI the continental producers. But
unless the designer was educated in the manufacturing
districts and practically acquainted with the commercial
bearings of his designs, he would in the majority of cases
fail altogether.
Mr. SLANEY supported the vote.
After a-few words from Mr. SPOONER,
Colonel SYKES also supported the vote, Geology
was the grammar of the earth and if one of its tenses
were properly understood, the whole verb could be
conjugated..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de-
fended the vote, and stated that the geological survey
under the direction of Sir Roderick Murchison was
going on very satisfactorily. The survey was for irnpor-
sant national objects, and not for the benefit of any pri-
' individuals. He therefore trusted that his bon.
the member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner)
not b., able to persuade the house to refuse that

Mr. PLATT also supported the vote.
The committee then divided. The numbers were—
For the vote
For theamendment 33
Majori'y .-124

Mr. DILLWVN then complained of the high rate of
salaries, and the item of 2,0001. for the purchae of spe-
cimens. The prices paid were extravagantly high, and he
mentioned the hum of 1031. that hail been paid for 17
pieces of Staffordshire earthenware, and 101. for a pair
office dogs of French design. Ile'therefore moved that
the vote he reduced by 3,7681., which would make the
vote 45,0871. instead of 48,885/.
The committee then divided. The numbers were—
For the original vote
For the amendment
Majority for the vote —126
A vote of 143,0301. was proposed for education in Ire-
lani,

Mr. BLACK complaned that the Government had con-
etitutod itself a great publishing and bookselling estab-
lishment; and, on the part of the book trade, he entered
his protest against it. In the case of literature, such an
establishment was especially contrary to sound principle.
It bad the effect of checking opinion. Every literary
man who attempted to produce an educational work had
to compete with the Government, and thereb there was
a check given to the spread of such literature.

Mr. BLACKBURN objected to the agricultural mo-
del school. These schools were strongly objected to last
year, and he then understood that no further vote would
be taken for them. Several testimonials bad been pub-
lished by the Government in favour of these schools, but
none of these testimonials were dated. One of the testimo-
niala stated that one of the schools was of great advaa•