The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-06 00:00:00

SOUND DUES.

On the mction tor the House going into committee
on Ole Sound Dues,

Mr. LIDDELL rose to call the attention of the house
to the subject of the Dani h transit dues. He said that
he was not opposed to the general scheme proposed for
the redemption of the Sound dues. He believed that
those duos bad long been the subject of great vexation
and annoyance to our inercanti:e marine, the detention
of our vessels at Elsinore being attended with diffieuly
awl danger ; and be believed that it was desirable that
an arringement for the redemption of the dues should bs
sanctioned by the house, and although it might ho said
that the house ought not to be called to pay a sum of a
million and a half for such a purpose, that argument had
no weight with him as compared with the advantages to
be derived to oar valuable commerce with the Baltic.
But another important matter was involved in this
question, and that was the transit dues levied by
the Danish Government on goods conveyed on the in-
tersecting lines of railways in Danmark. Those dues
were first levied in 1838 on the Hamburg and Lubeck
line. It was first proposed that they should be levied by
weight, at the rate of 9d. for every 100Ibs. weight; but
the city of Lubeck remonstrated, and Denmark imposed
a duty of 41d. on every 1001 be. The present proposition
was that four-fifths of the dues should be remitted.
When they were first levied there was% clear under-
standing that they should be levied for ant protection of
the Sound revenue. When the house was called on to
voter large sum in order/to sweep away the Sound dues
their should consider whether it was not desirable to get
rid of the whole of the dues connected with them. The
main Danish line over which British commerce passed
was the Flensburg Railway, over which three millions'
worth of goods were annually conveyed. The number of
tons on which duty was paid was 17,000 tons, and the
amount of duty was 1,0121. _Reduce that by four-fifths,
and 2001. was the amount whiph Denmark would receive
for these transit dues under the new proposal. Even if
you doubled the amount of commerce, the dues would
only amount to 4001., and the redemption of it at 15years'
pnrehase would be only 6,400/. That ought to be paid,
rn
was
at once to get rid of this small item of dues. But
it :.! not merely the duty which was complained of, it
was
the delay and restriction of trade which its being
levied caused. The feeling against it was very stropng,
not only in Lubeck,b but all the Hanseatic cities. one
tariff laid down
Russian articls of
Denmark was also not a fair one, for
Produce, such as hemp, flex, and
tadow, were men( rta
and it W 43
supposed fromt duty on these lines of railway ;
the Emperor of Itusatiliwbtebast,
justified on the ground that
entitled to exemption iu hi,
character of heir to
I tolstein Gottoir. Ile had e.a.'incl"t9t Denmark as Duke of
uansealZre wan a strone feeling
aeainst these dues in the ie t?wns, and he could
also state that there was stroyngrepeat
feeling against them ie
in
which
ita wa,plorsttaoteldthe Imperial
Council itself, as appeared h
perial
particularly
Council of Penmerk,
deeir
able to remove the whole of those dues,
,
this souree of revenue had lost its political importance
ieeee of v,
iu
oa7-.P,'fi the si esity hie!' had e been
Uome
r
anticipated that .two aliB+,ven;, would be gl •
ven to his ar-
guments by her Majesty s Government. First, that a
great number of states were parties to the conventioe
which had been entered into, and that any advautage t 0
b. derived from the abolition of theme cases must be dc,..
ii",i by them all ; fled al o that it was not worth while
on fiee.Uflt of the; entail sum to re-open the whole of
this great question and endanger the success of the
etc/ ire scheme. Now, as to taw fin t point ho could say
that we were going to pay Denwark for the abolition of
oCaer dues, and he only proposed that she should be
paid for the doing away of these small ones, the real
evil being the delay and vexation caused by the necessity
of declaring goods on transit. With regard to endan-
gsring the success of the whole scheme, the position of
Denmark should be.considered ; for she bad been forced
into giving up the Sound dues, which she would not
have dune but fur the chance of a war with the United
States or sem other power. e;There was a precedent for
the house ex-tieing before they sanctioned the convention
which had been entered into, and asking Denmark to
give up this small amount of dues. In the recent case
of a convention with France on the subject of the New-
feundlaed fisheries, the convention was allowed to fell

to the ground by her Majesty's Government, on the
ground that the col any objected to it. The hon. gentle-
man referred to memorials which were contained in a
correspondence, for which be had moved, from the
Northern Navigation Company, and another company
as well as 62 firms engaged in the Baltic trade, in which
it was urged that the abolition of these dues should be
made a condition of the convention. After complaining ,
that a letter contained in that correspondence addressed
to the Treasury in February last had not been noticed
until after the convention was signed on the 14th March,
but was only sent to the Foreign-office on the Bth May,
the very day he moved for the correspondence, the hon.
gentleman concluded by urging that this, the only occa-
sion on which there would be an opportunity of getting
rid of these dues, should be taken advantage of, and
Denmark compelled to remove all obstacles to commerce
in the Baltic.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. gentleman bad taken occasion, on the motion that
the Speaker do leave the chair, to bring forward his
views on one article of the treaty which was about to be
brought under the notice of the house, and he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) thought that it would be the
most convenient course if he postponed any remarks on
the subject till the house was in committee, when he
would have an opportunity to explain the general state
of the question, and to state the grounds on which the
the article in question had been agreed to. He begged
to move that the Speaker do leave the chair.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE though it would be more
convenient if the right hon. gentleman had furnished the
house with the information asked, when they were
about to vote away so large a sum as 1,120,010/. It
might be the opinion of the house that the subject
should go no further. He bad himself a strong opinion
against the proposed arrangement.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said ho
was prepared to state his views on the question to the
house before he called on them to agree to a resolution
for a grant of money. He proposed that the house
should go into committee, and then he would go into a
statement of the whole question.
The house then went into committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that although an arrangetnent with respect to a re-
demption of the Sound dues had been voluntarily con-
cluded by the Mritish government with the government
of Denmark, it was neveitheless true that it was a sub-
ject to the consideration of which her Majesty's Govern-
ment had come in a manner somewhat independent of
its volition. The question was first raised by the go-
vernment of the United States. Two years ago the
United States of to the legality of the Sound
dues, and would not consent that their vessels should
pay the dues which for centuries had been levied in the
Sound. The consequence of this refusal was that ne-
gotiations of an unfriendly nature were entered into
between the President of the United States and the
King of Denmark, which ended in Denmark refusing to
remit the Sound dues to American vessels. The govern-
ment •f Denmark then set itself to consider whether
means could not be found for the voluntary extinction
of the Sound dues, and in the course of the year 1856 a
congress of delegates assembled at Copenhagen to ar-
range the terms on which the dues should be redeemed.
The governments which were represented at the con-
gress considered the question, but for some time were
unable to agree on the terms. The congress began
to sit in the autumn of 1855, and in the spriee,
of 1856 a proposition was submitted to the British
government for the payment of a gross sum for the
redemption of the Sound dues. At that time the
treaty of peace with Russia was under negotiation,
and it was uncertain how long we should continue to be
engaged in an expensive conflict, and her Majesty's Go-
vernment, while recognising the importance of the ex-
tinguishment of the Sound dues, with reference to our
trade in the Baltic, yet for financial reasons felt no eager-
ness to adopt the arrangements, and their first answer
to the preposition was therefore unfavourable. The com-
mittee would find on reference to the correspondence on
the Sound dues, moved for in the last session, that by a
letter of Lord Clarendon to Mr. Buchanan of 23d March
1156, the preposition of the Danish Government wag in
the first instance not favourably received. He men-
tioned this for the purpose of showing that her Majesty's
Governmentdid not entertain this question with any heat
or eagerness, or enter into any arrangement precipitately,
but that they gave it a calm, cool, and protracted conside-
ration. The matter was to be considered in conjunction
with other powers, and after peace was made with Russia
that country, with other powers, signified her acceptance
of *e terms offered by Denmark to herand other powers.
The acceptance by a first-claespower like Russia and that
of other powers, altered the position of England with re-
gard to the question, as it was obvious that there would
be disadvantages to our trade if our vessels were subject
to the Sour d dues, and the vessels of other nations were
free. The matter was accordingly reconsidered, and the
altered position of this country on the return of peace,
and the disadvantage under which this country would
labour if there was a partial redemption of the Sound
dues, induced her Majesty's Government to determine to
bring the subject under the consideration of the House of
Commons. Nearly at the end of the last session he moved
for the appointment of a committee to consider the ques-
tion of the Sound dues, and that committee examined
Mr. Buchanan and several other competent wi'messes on
the subject. The Sound dues were proved to be oppres-
sive to our trade, not merely from the amount levied
upon the vessels, but also on account of the various in-
cidental charges following them, and the detention of
the vessels at the Sound for the necessary purpose of
levying the dues. The committee in their report stated it
was a matter of much complaint that these charges
which were only incidental to the payment of the
dues exacted by the Danish government amounted in
some cases to double the amount of the dues them-
selves ; that the dues properly so called amounted only
to one-fourth of the charges for which the owners of

cargoes wer3 made liable, and that the burde❑ thus im

posed on British commerce amounted to between
200,000/. and 300,0001. That was a strong argument
in favour of a redemption of the dues, and if the sum on-
which the redemption was calculated was only 70,0001.
a year, it was clear that such a bargain must be advan-
tageous to the commerce of this country. (Hear, hear.)
But in addition to the complaint arising from the
amount levied, there was a much stronger complaint re-
specting the loss caused by the detention of the vessel.;
at Elsinore for the purpose of leeying the dues. Some
of the witnesses declared that the evils arising from de-
tention were greater than the evils arising from the
amount collected. On that point the committee said—
the Sound dues, as they are levied at present, contain in
them what is most objectionable, and are most unfair in
their operation ; they occasion great loss of time and
much needless loss of expenditure in the collection of a
small revenue, and tend to impede important branches
of trade ' • and the commitfee furtler declared that they
had no hesitation in saying that the dues were the cause
of annoyance and injury to British commerce, and they
therefore deemed it advisable that they should be
abolished. (Hear, bear.) Adverting to the negotiations
which were then pending, the ctmmittee recommended
that the proposals made by the Danish government to
the governments of different stetes interested in the
navigation of the Baltic should receive immediate con-
sideration, and become the foundation of a final and
satisfactory settlement of the question. Acting on that
report, her Majesty's Government thought the niost ex-
pedient course they could adopt would be to entertain
the proposal of Denmark ; and accordingly, soon after
the prorogation of Parliament last year, they communi-
cated to the Danish government their willingness to
accede to the principle of a capitalisation of the Sound
duos—namely, redemption for a fixed sum of money,
time payment to depend on the ultimate decision of Par-
liament, the arrangement of the Government being
one of a arovisional nature. The negotiations con-
tinued, and after the original amount demanded
had been diminished, her Majesty's Government ac-
ceded to the arrangement, which the Government of
Russia bad in the first instance agreed to, and which the
other powers of Europe ultimately adopted—namely,
the paymen; of 30,476,325 rix-dollars, by different
States, Greg Britain paying one-third of the whole
amount ; Russia nearly the same amount ; Prussia,
4,430,000 rix-dollars ; Austria, France, the Hanseatic
Towns, and ether parties to the arrangement contribut-
ing their various proportions. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment thought they could not fairly adopt the course
taken by the United States. Those States were not par-
ties to the internationel law of Europe, and therefore
stood in a different position from this country. It was
not for him to say how far the objections of the United
States were well founded, or whether the ground they
took was justifiable according to the law of nations.
However that night be, her Majesty's Government con-
sidered themselves precluded from the adoption of such
a course. England was a part of the European family
of nations, and had been a party to treaties which clearly
recognised the Sound dues. A treaty was concluded
between Groat Britain and Denmark in July, 1670, in
the reign of Charles the Second, which was renewed in
1810 by the treaty of Kiel, which treaty declared that
the duties for passing through the Sound should be paid
according to the hrinted tariff or book of rates—that
book of rates having been agreed to between Denmark
and France in 1645. There was, therefore, no reason
to doubt that the Sound dues were regularly paid ex-
cept at the time when we were at war with Denmark.
But in the year 1811 the dues were revised, and in many
instances reduced, aed a convention was signed in Lon-
don by Lord Palmerston introducing a new tariff of
Sound dues. Nothing could be more plain than that this
country was bound clearly by a recognition of the le-
gality of these payments. Her Majesty's Government,
therefore, came to the conclusion that if Denmark did
not voluntarily abandon these dues, but was ready to
give them for a picuniary payment, unless an agree-
ment could be made with Denmark for a voluntary re-
demption, they must continue to be paid by British
vessels navigating the Sound. Under these cireurn-
ellleegm and looking at the general assent whieh
had been given by the great northern Powers to the
arrangement proposed, they felt justified in signifying
the acceptance of the terms. But before those terms
were filially accepted, an attempt was made in concert
with Prussia to come to an other arrangement, ley which
the detention of vesstb; at Eleiuore would have been
Prevented by levying the -toll at the ports of departure
and arrival in the Italie. It appeared, however, that
the plan, which had Le en suggested by Prussia, could
not be carried out, and then nothing remained but to
agree to the terms proposed by Denmark, or to refuse
to
enter into that arrangement. After a long consider-
ation, h
--er •-•eteiesty's Government arrived at the
conclusion that it would be beneficial to the
trade of the country to pay the sum stipulated
by Denmark, 4.larnountin,g in English currency to
1,125,206/. In consideration of the payment of that
sum, Denmark had agreed in the fuilest manner to ex-
tinguieh the dues levied at the Sound, to maintain
lighlhonees and other inctituliens for the convenience of
commerce, and to reduce the transit dues levied ee the
lines of communication in the Danish territory, and
leading into the Baltic, by four-fifths of the amount col-
lected. That (potion was riot embraced in the original

negotiations, which were confined entirely to the Sound
dues. The importance of the remission or reduction of '
the transit dues, however, was brought under the notice
of the house by the report of the committee, and our
minister at Copenhagen was instructed to make the
concession of those dues a part of the negotiation. More
difficulty was experienced on that point than on any
other, and the consideration of the question led to a
crisis in the Danish capital and the resignation of some
of the members of the Government. He had mentioned
this fact for the purpose of showing that the British Go-
vernment considered the reduction of the transit dues a
sine qua non, The Danish Government, however,
considered it inconsistent with the dignity of
the King and the independence of the coun-
try to give up those dues. Now, provided it could
have been established that the transit dues were levied
merely to protect the dues at Elsinore, the re-
mission of those dues would have fairly entered into the
negotiations for the redemption of the Sound dues. But
there was great difficulty in proving that fact, and the
utmost admission made by the Danish government was
that to some extent the transit dues possessed that cha-
racter ; but they said they had conceded as much as we
were entitled to demand, and that those dues formed a
portion of their revenue which no foreign government
had the right to question. It was not the function of
the British or any government to criticise the ways and
means of Denmark, and the right of the government of
that country to impose such taxes upon the people as
might be necessary, and so far as these tolls were
merely sources of revenue levied on the internal traffic
of the country, they were beyond the purview of the
negotiation. It was said that the amount of the tran-it
duty was not objected to. Why that was giving up the
strength of the whole case. He trusted that the com-
mittee would consider that her Majesty's government
had obtained as fair terms as they were entitled to with
respect to the transit dues. Looking to the whole of
the arrangements—looking to the importance of pre-
venting a hostile collision between the United States
and Denmark—looking to the importance of redeeming
these dues, and freeing our vessels not only from the
dues paid by our vessels, but from the incidental
charges following in their train—looking to the neces-
sity of preventing the detention of our ships at Elsinore
—and finally, looking at the fact, that four-fifths of the
transit dues across the Danish peninsula had been con-
ceded, he trusted the committee would virtually ratify
the treaty which had been entered into,. All the con-
tracting parties, including amongst others, England,
France, Austria, Prussia, Russia, Belgium, Meck-
lenburg, Oldenburg, the Netherlands, Sweden, were
satisfied that the terms were fair and reasonable,
and ho trusted the committee would approve of the
discretion which the government had exercised.
There was one other point to which he wished
to call the attention of the committee, namely, the pro-
visional arrangement which had been made with respect
to the payment of such a large sum of money. No other
course could have been adopted which would have left
the hank's of Parliament more free or more unfettered in
the conclusions to which they might think proper to
come. If the power of making treaties were vested in
Parliament, still it would be necessary to confide to a
Minister at a foreign court a discretionary power to nego- I
tiate the details of those treaties. In the present case,
although the ratifications had been exchanged, no final
arrangements for fulfilling the treaty could be completed
without the consent of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The
treaty was intended to take effect from the Ist of April ;
but a protocol was signed by which the Danish Govern-
ment agreed to take bonds provisionally from vessels
passing the Sound after the Ist of April, on the under-
standing that the dues were not to be exacted if Parlia-
ment should ratify the treaty. A separate convention
had been entered into with the Danish Government, by
which the British Government undertook to pay the
amount agreed upon at once, within three months after
the assent of Parliament had boeu obtained. He would
state why the Government had preferred that arrange-
ment. The time fixed by the treaty was twenty years ;
but they c insidered it much bettor to pay the amount
down than to agree to a terminable annuity of twenty
years, and accordingly an arrangement had been made
with the Bank of England, by which they were willing,
in case it should be required, to advance the sum imme-
diately on a terminable annuity of thirty years, at an
annual charge of 64,7001., or an annuity of thirty-five
years at 60,00141. Now, when he made his finan-
cial statement in February, he stated the esti-
mated income at 71,885,0001., and the estimated
expenditure at 78,000,0001. ; and he calculated that
the improvement in the balances at the end of the
financial year would be, as compared with the balance
at the end of the previous financial year, 1,384,000/.
The actual income had turned to be 72,334,0001.; being
an excess over his estimate of 449,000/. ; and the amount
of expenditure was 76,588,0001,, being 1,412,0001. below
his estimate. Taking the excess upon the income and
the deficit, if he might so call it, upon the expenditure,
There was a sum of 1.861,0001, in fewer of the public.
The result was that the balance in the Exchequer, in-
stead of being 1,384,0001, was .1,645,000/., showing the
amount to be 1,861,0001. larger than he had calculated
upon. In the estimate he had made he had incleided
2,000,0001. for the payment of Exchequer Bonds falling
due in May. That 2,000,0001. had been paid off. After
even that large payment there would be a large balance
in the exchequer, owing partly to the circumstances he
had mentioned, and partly to the fact of the fall in the
duty on tea having caused the payment of a large por-
tion of those duties to be withheld in the quarter ending
the let of April, and which bad been paid since. Toot
payment fell into the ways and means of this year in-
etead of the preceding year ; and, taking all the circum-
stances into consideration, he did not feel justified at the
present moment in asking for any borrowing power;
and he proposed, therefore, that the whole of this sum
should be paid out of the balances in the exchequer. It
would be possible, no doubt, to create a loan in the nature
of terminable annuities, which woul I impose a charge of
60,0001., or 64,0001., for either 30 or 35 years, at the end
of which time the debt would be extinguished, and if
that arrangement were adopted, provision might be made
for the payment of that annual sum by a special customs
duty upon the articles imported from the Baltic, colon-
lated to produce a sum ofan equal amount. That was a plan
which the government had carefully considered, and no
doubt some arguments might he adduced in favour of it ;
but it seemed to him to proceed, to a great extent, on
an assumption which was of very doubtful validity,
namely, that the Sound duos were a charge on persons
engaged in the B dtic trade, whereas it appeared to him
that they must be considered as ultimately falling on the
consumer in this country. They were an addition to
the charges of navigatiou through the Sound. Mer-
chants engaged in that trade no doubt obtained the
average pr )fits upon their capital. They were subject to
occasional losses owing to capricious detention of ves-
sels, and he had no doubt they frequently suffered beyond
what they might fairly reckon upon ; but still it did
appear to him that whatever inconveniencies were sus-
tained and losses suffered in consequence of the Sound
dues, they all ultimately fell upon the consumer in this
country. If that were the case, would any particular
benefit arise from imposing duties upon tallow, timber,
corn, or other articles imported from the Baltic, with a
view to indernnfy the nation for the sum laid out to pro-
cure exemption from the Sound dues ! It appeared to
him that the amount, if it were raised lay means of ter-
minable annuities of 60,000/. would hardly justify the
imposition of a class of special customs duties on the
articles to which he had referred, and it was net his in-
tention to make any such proposition to the hou e. At
the same time, if the house had any insuperable objection
to making this charge on the general revenue of the
country—if they concluded that those who used arti-
cles of such general consumption as the exports from
the Baltic were not benefitted by the remission from the
Sound dues, it would he competent for them to resort to
the contrivance he had alluded to. It was not his in-
tention to propose it, but he had thought it necessary to
mention it, in order to show it had been under the con-
sideration of Government. He was afraid he bad de- i

tained the house at considerable length, but he thought
it due to them to lay before them the terms on
which the arrangement had been made. The grounds
of it had been carefully considered, and notwithstand-
ing the magnitude of the sum by which this benefit
had been purchased, nevertheless be could scarcely
doubt that upon a careful investigation of the subject the
committee would come to the conclusion that the bene-
fit was of the greatest importance to the commerce of the
country ; that it would remove harassing restrictions on
an important branch of their trade and navigation ; and
although the price that they gave was considerable,
nevertheless it was not larger than tke value of the ex-
emption which they purchased. He thought they should
be consulting the lasting and solid interest of the trade
and navigation of the country by authorising the Crown
to complete the arrangement which had been provision-
ally entered into. He moved that a sum of 1,125,2061.
be granted for the purpose of giving compensation to
Denmark the remission of the Sound dues.

Mr. WEGUELIN congratulated the Government
upon the conclusion of this important question in so sa-
tisfactory a manner. The loss arising from the payment
of these dues formed not the only ground of complaint
on acceunt!of them. On the average, every vessel trading
in the Baltic was detained on account of the Sound
dues ; and taking into consideration loss of wind, and
other accidents consequent upon such detention, three
days en her voyage were lost, and there was a conse-
quent loss of three days interest upon the amount of
property in the vessels, which amounted to a consider-
able sum. He should have been glad to have heard
more of the genetal principle on which the amount of
compensation payable by this country had been arrived
at. With regard to the transit dues for goods carried
by railroad through Denmark, ho thought the right hon.
gentleman bad laid down the correct principle. There
was one subject to which he wished particularly to tall
attention. The ageLti and others at Elsinore who were
employed in the collection of the Sound dues would
lieve their livelihood completely swept away when their
present offices wcref abolished, and be thought there
ought at least to be some expression on the part of the
Government of this country in favour of their receiving
compensation from the Danish Government.
Mr. BEARLEY-M.0012E maintained that in this
instance they were,called upon to vote away 1,125,0001
on iiisufficient grounds. As a member of the committee
upon the Sound dues, he could say most distinctly that
the evidence went to show the principal complaint was
of the detention of vessels, and not the payment of the
dues. jeHe held the present bargain to be essentially a
bad one, for we bad a sum of 1,125,0001. at stake, and
what was the object ? It was to redeem a passing toll
of 70,0001. per annum. All experience went to show
that we had a diminishing tracte in the Baltic—that our
tonnage and exports had diminished. In 1849, British
vessels to the number of 6,846 passed the Sound, and in
1853 only 4,665 British vessels passed, showing a falling
off of 2,181. In 1849, 1,356 Russian vessels passed the
Sound, and in 1853, 3,472. Of ships belonging to Nor-
way and Sweden, 5,013 passed the Sound in 1849, while
in 1853 there were 5,387. Of vessels belonging to the
Hanle Towns, 311 passed in 1849, and in 1853 the num-
bers were 743, Our exports had decreased in a similar

rate, while those of the other Powers had increased.
That fact ought to be borne in mind in any arrangement
and the arrangement ought to embrace transit as well as
Sound dues.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the proposition of the
right hon. gentleman would, no doubt, be highly accept-
able to the Baltic merchants ; but he thought it was
most unjust to impose a tax on the people of this coun-
try to the amount of 1,125,0001. exclusively for the bene-
fit of those merchants. The right hon. gentleman had
given no reason whatever why America should not bear
a part of this gross amount.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY did not exactly understand
how the right hen, gentleman proposed to pay this
1,125,000/. He thougbt that this arrangement, which
would inflict ail this amount of 1,125,0001. on the pub-
lic, would be unjust and unfair.
Mr. ADAMS thought this not a bad bargain, for it
was made according to the policy which frees commerce
without further consideration of the policy, but, indeed,
that public were after all the parties in any case who
must sustain the burden, be it placed where it might.
America had not joined in that treaty, perhaps, because
she was not in the family of European nations. Besides,
she had always resisted the legality of the tax, which we
bad not done ; but by paying it we had subjected
ourselves to the necessity of paying it still, unless we
were to make use of force in clearing ourselves of the ob-
ligation. On these grounds he was disposed to sustain
the treaty.
After a few remarks from Mr. CLAY and Mr. RIDLEY
in favour of the arrangement,

Mr. J. WILSON said, as to the incidence of this tax,
it was quite clear that whether it fell immediately upon
the shipowner or the public, the public, as the consumers,
would be the parties who would ultimately have to pay
it, and not only to pay it, but for all the loss of time and
disadvantages incurred by the shipowner, if be pay it in
the first instance. The same observation applied to the
question whether the amount was to be charged on the
parties immediately relieved orlon the Consolidated Fund.
Besides, if the house considered that the goods received
from the Baltic were the raw material of our manufac-
tures, they would see that any toll or tax on tbem was
not only al charge upon the consumer, but an impedi-
ment to our trade. He thought no better or more econo-
mical plan could bealopted than that devised by his right
hon. friend. As to the transit dues, he explained that a
deputation of merchants interested in the question waited
upon him, and that he in consequence requested the FO-
- through the Treasury, to press the Danish
Government for a removal of these dues. But when they
received the letter of our Minister at Copenhagen (Mr.
Buchannan) they saw that the matter was closed, and
that it was treading on delicate ground to press it fur-
ther upon the Danish Government. The Danish Minis-
ter in his communications to our Minister gave substan-
tial reasons for not acceding to the request of the
Eogli-h merchants ; for besides the fact of the amount
of the dues having been reduced four-fifths, it was evi-
dent that a concession of the remaining fifth on this one
railway would necessitate a similar concession on all the
railways that passed through the Danish territory. The
Danish Minister, however, showed every disposition to
free the goods in transit from all unnecessary delay,
which appears now to be the chief ground of complaint.
He (Mr. Wilson), being desirous to contrive some plan
of classifying the goods on this side of the water so as to
conduce to their easy transit on the other side with as
little delay as possible, wrote to the merchants interested
in the matter, but they bad taken no notice of his com-
munication, as if they bad resigned all further interest
in the question. The Foreign-office, after the decisive
terms of Mr. Buchanan's letter, thought it better not to
push the matter on the Danish Government.

Mr. LIDDELL believed that a strong feeling existed
in the Danish Council itself in favour of the entire abo
lition of the dues. The small amount which the Danish
Government received was nothing as compared with the
great advantage which would accrue from their entire
abolition.. He thought that the arrangement was in-
complete and unsatisfactory.
Mr. G. DUNDAS agreed with his hon. friend that
there should be an entire abolition of the dues. He
could not help feeling that the treaty was very incom-
plete.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOOP.E said it was not true that
Russia and England were placed upon the same footing.
Russia was entitled to a re-,urn. The dues in this case
did not fail, as was generally the case, upon the con-
snmer, but upon the producer.
The CHANCELLOR >f the EXCHEQUE R said
that the sum upon which the redemption money was
calculated was the amount of shipping bills paid by the
vessels passing through the Sound. 75,7301. was the
amount received every year, which amount when capi-
talised was calculated by tte Danish Government at 60
million rix dollars. Of this sum the amount falling to
the share of Great Britain 7,1 as 1,893,6001., but the total
claimel by the Danish Gorernment was afterwards re-
duced from 60 million rix dollars to 35 million rix dol-
lars. and the amount pavaole by England was reduced
from 1,893,3001. to 1,125,000/. If the Government, fol-
lowing the suggestions of the hon. member, were to re-
fuse to ratify the treaty, tilt consequence would be that
England would be obliged to negotiate singly instead of
in concert with the other powers, and Denmark could
not consent to grant us 'otter terms than bad been
granted to them. The consequence of refusing to assent
to the treaty would be to transfer their Baltic trade from
Great Britain to the other ?owers. He found that the
average anneal amount of dues paid by America was
911 ex dollars, while the amount paid by Great Britain
was 35,373 rix dollars, so that Great Britain was much
more concerned in the matter than America. The num-
ber of English vessels passing the Sound in 1845 was
3,645 ; in 1349, 6,800 ; in 1850 51-52, there was a di-
minution ; in 1554.55, during the war, the number fur-
ther decreased to 2,424 ; but in 1656, the number was
raised to 4,772. He believed that the treaty into which
the Government had entered was as beneficial as could
be obtained, and the house must either assent to the
terms agreed upon, or continue upon the sane footing as
at present.
. .

The resolution was then agreed to.
SERGEANTS' GOOD CONDUCT PAY.

-- -
On the order for going into committee of supply upon
the army estimates,

Sir J. TR,ELA.WNY asked the Under Secretary for
War, whether the Minister for War had any intention of
taking into his favourable consideration the case of certain
sergeants who appear to be accidentally excluded from
the intended benefits conferred upon non-commissioned
officers by the order of 16th Jan., 1857 I He explained
that, previous to that order, private soldiers were entitled
to ld. a-day for every five years of good service, but when
they were made sergeants they did not obtain the benefit
of their good service. The object of the order was to do
away with this anomaly, and to give sergeants tke fort
benefit of their previous good conduct ; but by some ac-
cident. he believed, in the wording of the order, it ap-
plied only to sergeants who were created subsequently
to the order, and not to those who then held that rank.
He hoped that the attention of Government being drawn
to the matter they would take care to remedy the griev-
ance.

Gen. WINDHAM confirmed the statement of the
hon. member. He himself knew several cases in which
men who had been sergeants with goud conduct stripes,
for upwards of 16 years, got no addition to their pay for
good service, while men who were raised to the rank of
sergeant since the issuing of the order were receiving 3d.
per day additional. 500/. a-year would correct this ano-
maly.

Sir J. RAMSDEN said the hon. baronet the member
for Tavistock han only done justice to the feelings of the
noble lord the Secretary of State for War in expressing
an opinion that it was hisintention to do that which was
right to all parties. It was acknowledged by all hon.
gentlemen that the subject was a very difficult one to
deal with, in consequence of the various regulations
under which these things were governed. He thought be
could venture to say that all the anomalies caused by
the regulations would be taken into consideration and
rectified.

Gen. CODRINGTON hoped the position of the ser•
geants would be favourably considered. Those sergeants
who had served long and exhibited good conduct were
now placed in a lower or worse position than wen re-
cently wade sergeants. This was a hard case, and re-
quired attention.

Col. NORTH said he wished the house to consider this
case : —Two men joined the army at the same period.
Before lacing five years in the army they were made ser-
geants, and continued so until after 10 years. One man
c.)mmitted some fault and was reduced to the ranks
again, but having served 10 years as a sergeant he be.
came as a private entitled to 2d. per day extra pay, one
penny of which would be deducted for a time for his bad
conduct. Having exhibited good condnct for a year, the
penny would be restored, and at the end of 15 years he
would be made a sergeant, and receive his 3d. a-day ;he
would thus be paid his ls. 10d. a-day and the 3d., while
the man who had exhibited good conduct throughout his
career would receive only hie pay of is. 10d. a-day.
These regulations were evidently a mistake at the time
they were made, and ho now hoped they would be
rectified.

Gen. WILLIAMS said the anomalies of the case had
been so fully stated by the gallant officers that he would
merely express his conviction that they would do right
by raising the moral conduct of sergeants to the highest
position they could. He trusted their case would have
a favourable consideration.

Lord V. TEMPEST ;id they had only the opportu-
nity of starting this question annually, and when they
did so they received a courteous and favourable answer,
but it was shortly after forgotten.
The house then went into a committee of supply, Mr.
FITZIWY in the chair.