The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-13 00:00:00

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make an addition to the Ways arid Means of the next
two years in the form of indirect taxes, which my right
hon. friend will be the first to admit are of a highly ex-
ceptional character. (Hear.) I cannot find feult with
him for making that proposal to the committee. On the
contrary, I think he has exercised a wise discretion in
making the proposal now, and in that manner giving full
notice to all persons commercially interested in the great
trades, tea and sugar, rather than postponing it to a future
session of Parliament. It may perhaps he thought strange
that I, who offered the beet resistance in my power when
it was proposed to increase the tea and sugar duties,
shorld now follow a different course. But all the consi-
derations which led me to offer that resistance, prove
how itnproperit would be to renew it. At the period of
resistance Parliament was ander no pledge with reference
to the great questions, before the eeuntry. Parliament
had done nothing to affirm in any manner the policy of
the Government with respect to the Persian war ; and
with regard to the expenditure for tae Persian war, it
was estimated at an amount Eltogether trifling. Re-
specting the war in China, so far from having approved,
the house passed a vote in condemnation of that policy.
The estimates which were preen ed in the early part of
the year were presented as peace estimates, and it was a
erst: eportant.question for consideration on what scale
i .4
,rW ee .eetimates ought to be framed. The question
r; . . litery force is intimately oonnected with the spirit
of our foreign pelicy. The spirit of our foreign policy,
along with the esti nates, has since then passed under
the review of the country, and I am bound franhly to
o en that the opinion of the country with respect to that
foreign policy, though it may be only temporary, differs
widely from mine. It appears, therefore, plain that no
thing can be more unfair than when the country is dis-
posed to recommend a policy involving great expendi-
ture, to interfere with the right hon. gentleman, who, as
Mmtister of Finance, wishes to make timely provision, so
Sill is in his power, for that-rieenditure. There is
another point most perplexing and embarasein; to my
mind, and that is the important scale of movement in
the miscellaneous estimates. We have not only to look
hack to the rapid increase in those estimates, extending
over several years, but we have to consider what are the
prospects far the future, and I am sorry to say that in
my bumble and conscientious opinion those prospects are
still more gloomy and perplexing. It is quite true that
on particular ocoasious we cavil with or make legitimate
of jeetions to some proposal of the Government. We
have induced them to postpone voting a museum in
Edinburgh, which, I am hound to Fay, is a perfectly
reasonable requirement, on a moderate scale : and we
have struck out a vote for a chapel at Paris. These
things are all very well in their way, but in the majority
of cases they are net instances where we retrench, but
rather instances where we adjourn the charge. As
regards the generel scale of the miscellaneous estimates,
it is impossible that they should be effectually cat down
in this House. It is the government, and the govern.
ment only, wisely and firmly supported by this house,
that can possibly cut them down. (Hear, hear.) I may,
perhaps, be of a censorious disposition, but I frankly
own that the views of the government with regard to
public economy are not my views ; but, if they were,
is the government firmly and justly supported by this
House? What has happened in the la t' fortnight?
Have we not seen a bi 1 carried, which I believe unpre-
cedented in our history, for the wholesale increase of the
salaries of public servants, in the face of an announce-
ment supported by detailed statements from the
government to the effect that, if we vote for that Bill,
we must be prepared to see a permanent addition to the
pubic burdens of 200,0001. a-year, In 20 years of
criticism of miscellaneous estimates this House wilhnot,
se far as mere money is concerned, undo as much as it
did by passing that most objectionable, measure. (Hear,
hear.). I hope I shall not be thought to be fxeeeding
the province of an individual member of this House in
making these comments on proceedings which have re-
ceived the sanction of a large maj :Tay ; but having been
daring the whiele session a prophet of ill, regarding with
alarm the financial embarrassments towards which we
aro drifting, and having, perhaps too freely, found fault
with my right hon. friend for proceedings in matters of
finance, I think it but fair to keep ia Mind an opera-
floe so remarkable and BO unprecelented, as this which
proves to me that the temper of the public, reflected as
it is by this house, is not favourable at the present
moment to economy, and which makes to the duty of
those who think they see a storm coming, and who
wish to mitigate its force, to raise, their voice in time
in the hope that something may be done to avert it, cc
to render it, at a 1 events, less formidable. I tender
my thanks to my right hon. friend fur having made
this proposal. There is nothing surreptitious in its
character. It hears on its face exactly what it is.
Above all, I rejoice in the proposal on this account, that
when we come near to a state of financial embarrass.

proper manner, and we ought also to have the amount
of the whole sum fairly before us. I moved, about a
week ago, for. a return of that nature, but it has not yet
been presented, though I should have thought it was as
simple and straightforward as it is important. I agree
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the calculation
which he has made of the comparative consumption of
tea and sugar among the different classes. The mur-
murs of scepticism which proceeded from the hon. bars-
net behind must have arisen from a misconception of
what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. The esti-
mate e
bw yhich the right hon. gentleman gave us is not by
any means a fanciful one. Is is founded on calculation
a gentleman who has given great pains to the
subject, and whose results have generally been ackro v-
'edged to be authentic. This calculation proceeded by
way of an analysis of the population of the country and
the amount of tea and sugar consumed per heal, and it
was shown by it that the majority of the consumers of
tea and sugar must be ranked among what are called the
superior classes. For instance, domestic servants figure
in the population to the amount of 1,500,000/. They
are great consumers of tea and sugar, provided by their
masters and mistresses, they were therefore very justly,
for the purpose of this calculation, ranged among con-
sumers of the higher and middle classes, and in that way
it turned ont that the majority of the consumers of tea
and sugar belonged to the superior classes. That ana-
lysis has removed an impression which has long been
prevalent in this country that the pressure of the indirect
I
taxes is mainly borne by the working 0 -3,-808 •under-
stand
the hon. baronet to object, also, to the system
which be says at present prevails of furnishing ways and
means from borrowed money. I think he must have
misunderstood the remarks which fell from the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Ox-
ford on this point, for I cannot believe the right hon.
gentleman had expressed any opinion that the ways and
means of this year had been ,furnished in any way by
borrowed money. No doubt here is a prospect of a
considerable deficiency, for reasons which I had an op-
portunity of explaining at the commencement of t
sessiais—viz , that this year you have received an amount
of war income-tsx of not less than 3,000,0001. which yon
will not receive next year. As far as that is concerned
you must be prepared for a vast deficiency ; but bor-
rowed money does not at all figure in our ways and
means, When the hon. baronet says that the Sound
dues were paid out of borrowed money—

ment we alwaya have to recollect that two alternatives
may happen to us, either of them worse than an increase
of taxation—one, ats attempt to shall and shamble on
from year to year with successive dAciencies ; the
other, to make I)ans to meet the ordinary exoenditure
of the country in time of peace. In my opinion either
of these courses is most detrimental and most disgrace-
ful to the country, and I frankly oesn that I feel the
more grateful to my right hon. friend on the present oc-
casion, because I interpret the present proposal as a
clear sign that be is impressed with similar opinions
with regard to the weakness, the imbecility, and the
disgrace of having recourse to either of thtes expedients,
and as a plsdge that if the necessity arises he will pro
pose at once to inset that expenditure of the country by
the only wise, honest, and manly course—an addition
to its burdens. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. CLAY denied that he had been a party to extra-
vagant expenditure in voting for the second reading of
the Superannuation Bill. The loss which had been sus-
tained by the abolition of the deductions need not be a
total loss. His only objection 'had been to redress the
grievances of which the civil servants complained, in
being made to pay to the superannuation fund a great
deal more than was represented by the superannuation,
allowances.

Sir 11. NVILLOUGLIBY—I did not refer at all to
the Sound dueß.

Mr. DISRAELI—WeII, then, I should be glad if the
hon. baronet would point out what portion of the expen-
diture was defrayed by borrowed money, for the matter
is one of considerable importance. There is no doubt
whatever that the sound, dues were paid out of the
balances in the Exchequer, and if there had been no
balances the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he told us,
weal have borrowed the money on terminable annuities.
But the Sound dues do not appear in the estimates ;
they are no part of the Committee of Supply, and no
borrowed money, therefore, enters into our ways and
means. As far as I can understand the state of our
finances, we shall have a deficiency next year for this
simple reason—that we have been living this year upon
a large amount of income-tax which we shall not have
next year. The amount to be raised from tea and
-sugar is not an amount which wall at all meet the
danger at hand. Next Year, when we meet, we 'shall
have an opportunity of expressing our opinions upon
this import•snt`subject, and for the present I shall con-
tent myself with saying that I offer no opposition to the
motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said, that at the beginniug
of the financial year there was a considerable surplus in
the Exchequer of money borrowed for the Russian war.
That entered into the balances, and he presumed must
have supplied some part of the expenditure of the year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—I can
quite confirm what was stated by the right hon. gentle-
man opposite with regard to the estimate of the com-
parative consumption of tea and sugar by the different
classes of the community. That estimate was by no
means drawn up upon imagination, nor upon any loose
conjectures, It was derived from an accurate account
taken ad over the country. It is difficult to ascertain
precisely the amount sold by private dealers to their
customers, and therefore this calculation may not be
precisely accurate ; but I have every reason to believe
that it makes so close an approximation to accuracy
,is
to be sufficient for all general purposes of reasoning.
Wi.h respect to the question of balances, it is undoubtedly
true that last year, which was substantially a year of
war expenditure, a portion of the revenue was raised by
I mite, and there was a balance at the end of the year
beyond the expenditure of the year ; but it was merely a
general balance in the Exchequer, formed partly by taxa-
tion and partly by burro wee monety. It is impossible to
say how much was money borrowed on loan and how
much was money raised by taxation. The duties upon
tea and sugar now in force will, unless this resolution be
pass-d, fall in the course of next year. They were
lowered in the course of last session—the duty on tta
from li. 91. to is. 5d., the rate at which it at present
stands, and which I may observe is a lower rate than the
duty on tea has ever before been fixed at. It is always
difficult to make a calculation of the probahla produce of
a tax in future years, but in answer to the hon. member
for Wolverhampton I may say that if these r solutions
be not passed we must coutemilita a has of 3,000,0001.
of revenue. _

Mr. THORNELY—Is the committee to understand
that these resolutions will, if carried, have the eff,ct of
imposing 3,000,0001. of additional taxation on the
people I
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
proposed resolutions make no addition to the taxation
as it stands in the present year. They only arrest a re-
duction which would otherwise take place according to
law.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—CAn the right hon. baronet
state how much of the money was borrowed for the
Russian war, and how much of that money was spent
on the war t
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—What
the hon. baronet asks is impossible. The loan was not
contracted for a specific purpose, but for the general
purposes of the year. There is a return of the total
amount of the loans contracted during the Russian war
and of the money spent on thht war. Nearer than that
I cannot go.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—How much of the last loan
was spent /
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There
ehn t,f °brit but they which
bwoarar
oa
ws
inning of f
powers 4, O
eoroeog/ .r
aonft
eEd abcyb epqauri ri
a- bmi
ere never used. Those powers were limited t) the
Ist of April last, when they eqiired, without the Ex-
chequer being any the !Wier for them.
The resolutions were then agreed tq, and the house
resumed.

Mr. GLADSTONE—What I said on that point pro•
ceeded on the joint sleet of the bill lied the frank
declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he
should accept and carry out the declaration of the house
without any quelefication. If the hon. gentleman thinks
there ought to be a revision of salaries, let him move an
addrcss to the Crown to that effect. I have no doubt
he will receive very considerable support. I will sm.
port him for one ; and I don't think that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer will feel at all disubtiged to him. I
would make such a motion myself ; but, having opposed
the bill from the first, it would not have so much weight
as one prnceeding, from the hon. gentleman.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said it was not at all clearly
proved that the deductions were too 1 age for the allow
aness male. All the evidence went to show that that
questioa woo not yet satisfactorily decided, His opinion
was that the Exchequer in the end would be a loser
instead of a gainer, as was generally supposed. His
reason for opposing the bill was, that ho looked upon it
as a very unstatesmanlike mode of settling the question.
lie had no intention of opposing the proposition of the
Chancellor of the Each( quer now before the committee,
although he was of opinion that there were otter articles
which could better bear an increase of taxation than tea.
He did not attach any great weight to the calculations
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had entered
into as to the tea comeumed by the different classes of
the community. It was difficult to tel how consump. 1
tion went. Toe lower classes consumed almost as much Yesterday was published the report from the Select
of the higher-priced teas as the upper classes. Committee on Oaths taken by Members, together with
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—I did the proceedings of the committee.
not say anything about the quality of the tea consumed At the first sitting Lord J. Russell, at the instance of
by different classes ; it was only the quantity of which Mr. Disraeli, was moved into the chair. The committee
I was talkinee
SrII. WILLOUGLIBY.—The calculatisns as to the then deliberated and considered the provisions of the sth
and 6th Will. IV., c. 62. On the following day a motion
quantity even could not he very trustworthy. lie was
glad to hear that tse East India Company did not feel was made and question proposed by the Attorney-Gene-
it necessary to apply to Her Majesty's Government for rel :—" That, in the opinion of this committee, the House
any pecuniary aid at present. It was, however, but a of Commons is included within the following words of
postponed demand. Considering the financial difficulties
the Bth section of sth and 6th Will. IV. c. 62, that is to
which had taken place in India during the last five years,
the falling eff which there would be in the revenue, and say, ' all bodies now by law, or by statute, or by any
the great expenses which would be necessary in certain valid usage, authorised to administer or receive any
departments, sooner or later the Indian Government oath.'" Mr. Disraeli moved an amendment, to leave
must come to the Imperial Exchequer for assistance. out from the word "That" to the end of the question, in
He was of opinion that we were rapidly drifting to an
enormous deficiency. It must be borne in mind that a order to add the words "It is expedient, before it comes
to any decision on the matter referred to its investiga.
large portion of the ways and means of this year con-
sisted of money borrowed for the Russian war which had tion by the house, that this committee should obtain per.
not been needed. It had never yet been clearly stated mission from tsheanhdou6sewtoilth.elavr c.o,ucn.s6e2l,ontotbhtyheelaepplication
Houses of
much of the money borrowed for the Russian war
parliament,"—but this amendment was,
had actually been spent for that purpose. Considering opfatrliijearnsteant
On the motion of the right lion. gentleman it
that none of this money would appear in the ways and
reed, by 14 to votes to 0, to postpone the conei-
means of next yeer, and that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would also lose a considerable portion of the drawn. Oa
deration of the question. On the third day of meeting
income-tax, a deficiency was inevitable. I.lol3diky last) the en •
mmittee took into consideration an
Mm. THORNLEY understood the proposition now
(aniendment, moved by Mr. Warren at the revious sit-
before the committee to be to ex ,end the present duties
on tea and sugar, which otherwise would be reduced on
otifngh—soz., to leave out from the "committee" to the end
the Ist of as pill next, to the year 1860. (flea') If t o question, in order to add the words "it would be
that were so he wished to know how much money the exedient
P , regard being had to the late period of the
Chancellor of the Foshhequer expected to gain by this session and the public and private engagements of its
resolution ? members, that they should report to the house that the
Mr. WILLIAMS did not see the necessity of this committee deem it advisable that it should be re-ap-
measure, It was not to take effect before next April, pointed at the commencement of the ensuing session."
and it would have been quite early enough had it been It was agreed, however, " that the words `that in the
proposed the first thing next session. Two months' opinion of this committee the' stand part of the ques-
notice wereuite sufficient for the trade, He objected lion." The main question was then put—" That in the
to trustingqthe
Exchequer with a balance, for he opinion of this committee the House of Commons is in-
remembered that it was because he had a balance in the eluded within the following words of the Bth section of 5
Exchequer that the right hen. gentleman had consented and 6 Will. 4, c. 62 ; that is to say, " All bodies now by
to the payment of 1,100,000/. for the redemption of the law or statute, or by any valid usage, authorised to admi-
Sound dues. nister or receive any oath."—The committee divided :
Mr. HADFIELD thought that all the blame of ex- Ayes, 13—Mr. Dillwyn,Mr.Disraeli, Mr. Headlam, Mr.
travagant expenditure ought not to be cast on the Horsnian,Mr.Attorney-General,Mr.Roebuck,Lord Stan-
ernment. There were many cases for hich the ley, Sir J. Pakington, Lord Advocate, Mr. Villiers, Mr ;
House was responsible, and he had on severalw occasions Ayrton, Mr. Greer, Mr. Bowyer. Noes, 16—year.
gone into the lobby with the Government against pro. Cobbett, Mr. Gladstone,
_Sir G. Grey, Mr. Henley, Mr.
positions to vote sums of money for particular purposes Malins, Mr. Napier, Mr. Rolt, Mr. Walpole, Mr.
Whiteside, Lord J. Manners, Mr. Macaulay, Mr.
to which they were opposed.
Mr. DISRAELI—I am glad that we are not called Wigram, Mr. Adams, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Craufurd,
upon to enter into the complicated question of Indian Mr. Maguire. The committee agreed to report to the
finance. It is not probable that we shad be favoured this house, as follows :—The folowing resolution was pro-
year with an Indian bu 'get, but it is extremely expe- posed by a member of the committee :—" That in the
dient that the house, prior to some appeals which may opinion of this committee, the House of Commons is
be made upon it, should endeavour to obtain a more ac- included within the following words of the Bth section of
Will. 4, c. 62 ;that is to sa `All beadles now
curate knowledge of our Indian finances. At the time 5 and 6 y,
of the passing of the charter it was agreed that a guaran- by law or staute, or by any valid usage, authorised to
tee fund of 2,000,000/. should be established, to accumu- administer or receive any oath. Upon di liberation,
late at compound interest, to form a security for the the resolution passed in the negative. Ordered, to
report
Indian stock, for which the British Government then