The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

have fuller or more striking testimony to the strong power
of unity pervading the feelings of the Italian people than
in the fact that Austria based her entire policy on the re-
cognized necessity of assimilating the whole spirit of go-
vernment in every state in the Peninsula, and of bringing
it under the influence of one moving power? (Cheers.) It
is the Powers hostile to Italy who, in the mysterious coun-
sels of Providence, have been made the means of compelling
the people to forget those local feelings with which they,
were strongly imbued. Every jealousy, every petty tradi-
tion, every narrow local view have been merged in one
desire—a desire which has arisen from the overpowering
necessity of moral self-preservation. (Cheers.) That is
the desire which the people of England have been viewing
with united prayers for its prosperity. As it has begun so
may it go forward. Never were changes so great and im-
portant effected with so little to raise a blush on the cheeks
of those who promoted them. (Hear.) They recall to my
mind the words with which Mr. Fox greeted the first ap-
pearance of the French revolution, when he said that it was
the most stupendous fabric that had ever been erected on
the basis of human integrity in any age or country of the
world. (Hear.) Sadly was that prophecy falsified by sub-
sequent events from causes which were not then suspected ;
but I believe the words were not far from the truth at the
time when they were spoken; and whether they were or
not, they are the simple and solid truth in their application
to Italy. (Hear.) For long years have we been compelled
to reckon Italy in its divided state, Italy under the friends
of the Austrian, Italy the victim of legitimacy, Italy with
a spiritual sovereignty at its centre, one of the chief sources
of difficulty and disturbance in European politics. We are
now coming to another time. The miseries of Italy have
been the danger of Europe. - The consolidation of Italy,
her restoration to national life—if it be the will of God to
grant her that boon—will be, I believe, a blessing as great
to Europe as it is to all the people of the Peninsula. It will
add to the general peace and welfare of the civilized world
a new and solid guarantee. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said he might commence by stating
he was no apologist of the atrocities which had been com-
mitted, or of the course pursued by Austria. The right
hon. gentleman, in the most solemn manner, endeavoured
to fix the crime of perjury on the King of Naples, but let
them see how the King was met by a powerful party, and
before the Parliament met which was called, the clubs
said they would have a Lower Chamber but no Upper
House, and the King had pledged himself by a solemn
oath that there should be two Chambers; one a Chamber
of Peers. The result was that barricades were erected,
and they were aware of what resulted. He (Mr. Maguire)
was no advocate of tyranny, and no opponent of nationali-
ties. From the moment the young King of Naples came to
the throne the noble lord of the Foreign Office became the
schoolmaster of the young King and of the other rulers in
Italy. The hon. member then passed a high eulogy on the
conduct and demeanour of the Pope of Rome, in circum-
stances, he said, of great trial and difficulty, and that the
troubles in the Papal States were not to be attributed to the
badness of the Papal Government. As to Italian freedom,
the first impulse given to iteamefrom the Vatican. Pius IX
gave his people free institutions on the model of England.
He gave a free parliament—a free Press—and a lay Gover-
ment, and how was he recompensed ? He was told that
these institutions would not work, nor did they—the
institutions broke down, and the Pope himself fell with
them for a time. (Hear, hear.) The Minister of the Pope
was assassinated. 'I he Press became licentious. The hon.
member for Southwark (ylr. Layard) shook his head as if
that was untrue ; but he had the writings of the Press which
Pius IX. had liberated, and that Press had since written in
the spirit of Red Republicanism. He would here refer to
the writings of Montalereb:rt, to show that the Pope had
given liberty to his people, which they received in a spirit
of ingratitude and baseness. The Pope had done much to
give his people liberty ; but his libel ality was met with acts
of murder and bloodshed. Would the Pope, after that, be
warranted in making a second experiment of extending the
liberty of his people ? He would have been mad, in the
face of such facts, had he done so. The Pope, instead of
being decried for not giving liberty to his people, ought to
be regarded as the apostle of liberty. (Hear.) He believed
the King of Sardinia was a most execrable man, and a man
who would hereafter be regarded as execrable and be
execrated. Garibaldi had acted as a pirate, but he had
proved a successful adventurer. The King of Sardinia had
taken advantage of the action of Garibaldi while it was
useful, and then had basely dismissed him. Everybody
knew what drove Napoleon to Italy. It was the bloody
finger of Orsini pointing from the scaffold to Italy. Let him
beware of persevering in the course which he was now pur-
suing, driven on by the fear of assassination. Let him
beware of his end. It might not prove so glorious even as
that which befel the first Napoleon as prisoner at St.
Helena. The King of Sardinia was an admirable imitator
of King Henry the Eighth, and if he had the same oppor-
tunity he might give as many wives to the axe as the
author of the Reformation. The King of Sardinia had the
morality of a moss trooper and the temperament of the he-
goat. (Laughter.) The unification of Italy was a dream,
and was a dream never to be realised.
Mr. ARTHUR RUSSELL said that having been some
months in -Italy he desired to bear his testimony to the fact
that everything which he heard, saw, and observed fully
bore out the impressions stated to the house by his hon.
friend the member -for Southwark. He (Mr. A. Russell)
thought that the affairs of Italy might safely be left in thp
hands of Victor Emmanuel; and he felt convinced thal
what her Majesty's Government had done with respect to
Italy was in accordance with the sentiments of the whole
British people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ITILNES said it appeared to him that the advocates
of the Pope had made a fundamental mistake in confound-
ing questions of property with questions of sovereignty.
He earnestly hoped, however, that, the difficulty would be
solved in a way most agreeable to the feeling of the Catho •
lie world. The motion they were debating was intended
to impugn the conduct of her Majesty's Government. They
were in favour of non-intervention. When Talleyrand was
asked what non-intervention meant, he said it was a meta-
ipityAie)al eixTrzrs,rsi
twhnothoisaitg:iwfieoduldinitheromroeudgdhllinvgu.nde(A.
stand that the feelings of the people of England were en-
tirely with them, and that in all their struggles the Italians
might rely upon our sympathies. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. ROEBUCK—There is no person who feels more
acutely than myself the responsibility which attaches to a
person who speaks on a great question like that which now
occupies the attention of the house. Every word that is
pronounced
in debate here is echoed at the uttermost
parts of the earth ; and, no matter how insignificant may be
the individual, his words contribute in some measure to the
effect produced. (Hear, hear.) What I shall now say will,
I fear, be unpalatable to many here; lont not holding any
office under the Crown, and not being connected with any
party, I give expression to my own opinions alone, and let
the world judge what they are worth. (Cheers.) It ap-
pears to me that many gentlemen who have addressed this
house have mistaken the object with which we are now
discussing this question. What we want to learn is not so
much what has occurred in the past as what the future
shall produce. We want to know how the Government
of this country ought hereafter to dct concerning Italy.
To the extent that the answer to this question depends on
what has passed we are justified in referring to the past ;
but so much lies in the future that we may well pass by
the petty discussions with which we have been enter-
tained, leaving to future history the disputes between the
followers of Garibaldi and the followers of the Pope.
We are here as legislators to determine in what way the
great influence of England shall be directed in coming
years. I shall look on this question simply as an English
one. (Hear, hear.) I believe that what is for the interest
of England is for the interest of the world. (Hear, hear.)
Her influence is so great and so,good, that what conduces
to her welfare conduces to the welfare of the world ; and
therefore I say, I address myself to this great question
simply as an Englishman. Now, I want to know what
ought to be the policy of England, and for that purpose I
ask myself what ought we to wish Italy to be, and what
are the steps that we ought to take in order to bring Italy
to that condition. lat once confess that lam for what is
now to be considered an United Italy. That is an expres-
sion which I know excites discontent in some minds, but
when I come to describe what I mean, perhaps it may not
be so offensive. I want to see Italy under one Govern.
meat from the bottom of the Peninsula up to the Mincio.
I want it not to be held by any foreign Power, but to be
wholly Italian. (Hear, hear.) Entertaining this view, I
have to ask myself of what nations Italy is composed, and
what are the nations round and about Italy. I find in the
north-west a great Power—namely Trance; I find in the
north-east another great Power—Austria ; and still further
east another great European Power—Russia. All these
countries were to be borne in mind in considering the
state of Italy. What are the hopes which ought to exist in
any rational mind of accomplishing an united Italy? To
the present hour that is a consummation which has never
been effected. Excepting under the leaden;despotism of the
Empireof Rome, Itaty never could be considered • in any
way as one. Under the Republic she was many ; and in the
great days of her existence there were separate Powers
throughout Italy. Before, then, we can hope for an united
people, we have to conquer' all the feelings of municipal
rivalry. But is theie no ether disturbing force? We have
been told, with all that vehement eloquence which so dis-
tinguishes the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that France
has done great things for Italy. (Hear, hear.) Yes; France
has done great things foe Italy; may not France do great
things for herself? (Hear, hear.) Has not France ad-
vanced towards the crests of tha mountains which surround
Italy, and can she not, when she chooses, pourher soldiers
down on the plains, and put an end to your expectations of
an united Italy ? (Hear, hear.) At the present moment
is there not a wedge driven Vetween the north and
the south by 40,000 French quartered at Rome ?
(Hear, hear.) You have to get rid of them. You have
also to f create some counterpoise to the power of the
Emperor of the French before you can expect, not
merely a united Italy, but a self-governed Italy—one
which shall be a nation for itself, and not a vassal of
France. (Hear.) It has not been my fate to appear in We
character of one who lauded the Emperor of the French.
(Hear, and a laugh.) I have to look at his conduct with
regard to Italy—and, in this house, where to-night we have
certainly heard some very remarkable statements and some
very hard language had been used—l hope I may be per-
mitted to express in respectful terms my opinion—even
though it shonld affect so great a potentate as the Emperor
of the French--I have no faith in the Emperor of the French
(Hear, hear.) Ido not believe there will be an united and
independent Italy. And I warn the two noble lords who
sit on the Treasury Bench, in older that they may not be
tools in his hand in making Italy his vassal, and in increas-
ing the power of Fronde, which is even now imminent on
her border, which is hanging on the crests of the Alps, and
which has 40,000 men in garrison at Rome. I warn them
that they may not be instrumental in uniting Italy to
France, and thus increase the power of France to domi-
neer over Europe. Mark how you step; be very cautious
how you tread, lest you should be led into that path. I
pass now from the north-west to the north-east. The Ita-
lians hate the Germans. When France ruled Italy, the Ita-
lians hated the French. (Hes& hear.) It was a very com-
mon opinion now-a-days, and it is one which the French
Emperor has proved, thatwe are to listen to what is called
universal suffrage, and to be guided by popular opinion as
to the governors of States. Is England in a condition to
mequiesee in that opinion? Does England adopt that prin-
ciple ? ihall we give up the seven islands in the mouth of
rho Adriatic?
(Hear, hear.) Ifwe listen to the hon. member
for Dungarvan obeli we be able. to adopt this coarse with
regard to Ireland
.? Should \vo have been able to do so in
Catada some )'ears ago *mid we have been able to do