The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 12, 1861.

COUNT CAYOUR ON THE ROMAN

QUESTION.

The following is Count Cavour's speech in the
Italian Senate, on the 9th inst., in reply to the
interpellation of Signor Vacca on the subject of
Rome :

The honourable senator, appreciating the diffi-
culties that surround the Government, has not

asked from it fresh explanations as to the details of
its policy ; he has merely wished for a confirma-
tion of the declarations which have been already
made, and which were so well received by the
representatives of the nation, as well as by the
nation itself. This is an excellent resolution on

his part. If our object is a high and legitimate
one, if it does not admit of contradiction, it is
at the same time one difficult of attainment. The
other Chamber has admitted, and the honourable
senator has concurred with it, that under present
circumstances we cannot employ other than moral
means. To arrive as conquerors in a city which is
the seat of the Catholic religion would be a wrong
on our part, and would damage the cause of Italy.
Agreeing with the ideas of the Government on this
point, the honourable senator adds to what has been
urged elsewhere an important consideration arising
from the connexion that exists between this ques-
tion and that of Naples. The first will solve the
second. In this respect the Roman question is
immensely important both in its influence on our
foreign relations and in its influence on the con-
solidation of internal order. It is of great impor-
tance, as he has said, that Rome should cease to be
the headquarters of the enemies of Italy and liberty,
the centre of all conspiracies, and the starting point
of all the emissaries who come to spread disorder
and violence throughout our provinces.
For final security, for completing the moral
fusion of Southern and Northern Italy, it is of
urgent necessity that the antagonism between the
Church and the State should end. This antagonism
the fault of which cannot, I think, be imputed to
the Government, is of service to the extreme, dis-
satisfied, and ambitious spirits of the Neapolitan
provinces; it aids them in agitating the country and
embarrassing the Government. I say then,
with the honourable senator, that the solu-
tion of the Roman Question is indispensable

to the complete pacification of the Southern pro-
vinces. Not wishing to treat the question of
Naples by itself, I shall not follow the honourable
senator over that ground. I shall merely say that
I accept the advice he gives, to use all constitu-
tional means to make law respected in the South,
and to combat extreme parties, whether they wear
black or red. The employment of legal arms will
ultimately overcome all difficulties. No doubt ail
difficulties will not disappear immediately ; the old
parties will not be effaced in an hour; it is not thus,
as is well known, that revolutions end. History
shows us that after all great changes—even those
which are the noblest and most legitimate—there
remains something of the previous struggles, and
that the salutary principles introduced by the new
rule only after a time succeeded in quieting all agi-
tation. When England made the glorious revolu-
tion which has made 1688 illustrious, she had to
struggle for 60 years against the strife of factions.
The change which has been just accomplished
among us has not been inspired solely by the prin•
ciple of liberty, like the English revolution ; it has
been based also on the rights of nationality which
give it additional force. And so I do not think it
will take 60 years, to completely tranquillise the
South, but it certainly will take more than the six
months that have elapsed since our King entered
Naples in the midst of general acclamations.
I have, then, reason to believe that by legal means
we shall make the laws respected, and that existing
difficulties will be smoothed. If, however, that hope
is fallacious, we should address ourselves to Parlia-
ment and ask it not for a dictatorship or full
powers, but for some special measures adapted to
the peculiar circumstances. Like the English minis-
ters belonging to the more liberal party whose useful
measures Signor Vacca has reminded us of, we should
apply for the modification of such or such a law ;
but we have a firm confidence that we shall not be
obliged to do this. The debates of the Chamber of
Deputies, the enlightened representation of those
who have been sent there by these provinces, the
advice everywhere given to the King's government
by men of various parties, to show itself strong and
energetic, are of themselves elements of power to
the suvernmeut.
But the best means of arranging everything is to
settle the question of Rome, the headquarters of
opposition and disturbance. I will not repeat here
how that solution may be brought about ; I have
spoken of that elsewhere. I will only say that we
.are still animated by the hopes we have expressed.
ft is not in so short a time that the opinions ex-
pressed, for the first time, by the government can
have made many conquests, but still they have
made some progress. The principles proclaimed by
us, the separation of the church and the state, the
liberty of the church, have been favourably received
by all parties who are inspired by liberal senti-
ments, even by those who are at the same time in-
fluenced by Conservative ideas. That is a great
step actually made.. But that is not enough ; it is
not merely liberal opinion, but the enlightened part
of the Catholic world that must be brought
round to our views. If same distrust, some
reluctance is exhibited on that side, we ought
not to be alarmed at it. Liberty cannot be
accepted without hesitation, without fear by
the Catholic world; for, in truth, it is the
first time that a great Catholic nation has
addressed itself to the church, with the offer of full
and entire liberty in exchange for its temporal'
power. Never before has the Church found itself
in this situation. I will not speak of ancient times,
or of the middle ages, when the question of liberty
could not so much as be raisea ; but the religious
reformation of the sixteenth century itself, while
combating the Church, never
.proclaimed this prin-
ciple ; it was effected in the name of certain doc-
trines which laid greater stress. on the individual
reason than Catholicism did ; but a circle of iron
always surrounded this now threatened domain.
Look, gentlemen, even at the s ocieties in which the
reformation has been maintained ; they have not
yet, at this day, full and entire religious liberty;
legislation, for the most part generous, is there
marked by some grievous exceptions. Reformed
Sweden has still penalties against Catholics, and
a liberal sovereign is making ineffectual efforts to
abolish them. In England even the political laws
against Catholics lasted till the end of the first
quarter of this century. It is only a few years ago
that the Pope having created a few merely religious
titles within the United Kingdom, offence was taken
thereat, and a severe penalty enacted against these
titles. Such considerations may well explain the
distrust exhibited by the Church ; but there are
still other causes of her reluctance and her fear. We
have seen only too often liberals who have become
conquerors after long struggles in the name of liberty
against old systems make use of the liberty they have
gained for the oppression of their adversaries. Thus in
France in the last century the benefactors of humanity
—the immortal men of the Constituent Assembly,
passed against the clergy a deer ee borrowed from
the spirit of despotism, imposed on them a civil con-
stitution inconsistent with the liberties of the
church, modified, without any agreement with
Rome, the limits of the bishoprics, interfered with
the right of investiture, and required of the priests
an oath contrary to their conscience. All this, gen-
tlemen, enables us to understand the attitude of
the French episcopate, who do not understand our
country in any way, who only judge of it by the
incorrect—l will say the calumnious—statements of
the ultra-clerical journals. Disturbed by the re-
membrance of these things, these bishops regard
with a kind of horror our efforts to establish our
relations with the court of Rome on a liberal basis;
they fancy that what is taking place among us is a
repetition of the events that took place in France ;
they picture to themselves a new civil constitution
of the clergy, new encroachments upon the church.
And this is why some French bishops who are emi-
nent for their virtues, and who have sprung from
the liberal classes of society, show such passion,
hatred, and injustice towards the efforts which the
Italians are making to win freedom for themselves
and at the same time to give it to the church.
Under less reprehensible forms the same things
have been done elsewhere. In Austria, in Tuscany
formerly, in Sicily, illiberal principles have pre-
vailed—the province of ecclesiastical authority has
been invaded ; but it should •be stated at the
same time, in exculpation of these Governments,
what their relations were with the Court of
Rome, armed as that court was with tem-
poral power, and preserving the remains of its
ancient political influence over the other European
states. It was impossible to carry out an enlarged
policy towards a power thus constituted ; and if we
must declare that the laws of Joseph 11., of Leopold,
of Tanucci, are not in accordance with our purer
principles, we must admit that their authors were
justified, by the plea of necessity, for these laws
which were for them weapons not offensive, but de-
fensive. But however this may be, all these things
have ill prepared the church to receive propositions
dictated by the spirit of liberty. And yet some

genuine liberalism has been displayed even in the
bosom of the catholic world. A part of the clergy
of France has seen since the revolution of 1830 that
the cause of the church ought to be.bound up, neither
with that of the fallen Bourbons nor that of ideas
that fell with them; and some eminent members of
catholic society have given in their adhesion to
liberal views. The chief of that school, a man of
vivid imagination and extraordinary genius, having
seen that his doctrines were ill received at Rome,
instead of qualifying them, abandoned catholibism,
and lent the aid of his intellect to the enemies of
the church ; but the seed which he had sown did
not die, and liberalism did not disappear from
among the French clergy. Many members of that
clergy desire the carrying out of the programme
traced, after the revolution of July, by the Abbe
Lamennais, M. Lacordaire, and M. de Montalem-
bert. There is one country in which these
views have received wide application : I
mean Belgium. There the separation of the
church and the state and the liberty of the clergy
have been established. It is an example that should
have weight in the eyes of liberals as well
as in those of catholics ; it shows liberalism that it
is is not endangered by the recognition of a free
church, enjoying full rights of association and in-
struction. It is true that a struggle—even an eager
struggle—is taking place in Belgium between the
catholics and the liberals ; but it is a struggle by
which neither the country, nor liberty is endan-
gered. Liberals were raised to power in Belgium
at the very time when the reaction reached its
height. Laws very favourable to the clergy have
been passed sometimes, but no attempt has been
made on the liberty of the press or on that of indi-
viduals ; the oscillations of opinion have not been'
extreme, and have been freely left to the action of
circumstances without any grave mischief resulting.
There is far from being excessive deference in Bel-
gium either for clerical personages or clerical no-
tions. It was not long since this was shown in an
incident connected with a foreign princess. We
must, gentlemen, accept courageously and in all its
consequences the great principle of liberty. I think
it is not difficult to show that Italy is, of all the
nations of the world,the most fit to apply this prin-
ciple, because there exists in her less antagonism
than almost anywhere else between the religious
sentiment and the spirit of liberty, because the
liberals here are more catholic than they are any-
where else, than they are in Belgium even. All our
great thinkers in this century have applied them-
selves to the conciliation we desire. The chief
literary glory of Italy, the man who is reckoned
among the chief poets of Europe, and of whom you
have the honour to be the colleagues in this
assembly, has always sought to harmonise
these two orders of ideas : he remains faithful to
both at the end of his career. In philosophy, where
harmony is, however, more difficult, the same thing
occurs; our greatest philosophers are alike in their
search after conciliation. Rosmini and Gioberti
have made it the object of their lives. Without
multiplying illustrations may we not conclude that
these views have a very great number of advocates
among us ? Italy is the most catholic of nations.
She will see disputes arise ; be it so. Ido not ex-
pect complete agreement ; but these disputes will be
an advantage. I believe, to speak candidly, that if
Rome accepts our offers, the Catholic party will in
a short time acquire a very imposing and quite legi-
timate influence ; but for all that, I have resolutely
takkt my side, and quite resign myself to end my
career on the Opposition benches. (Laughter.)
lam so convinced of all these things--I so firmly
believe in the immense advantages which both the
Church and Italy will derive from reconstitution,
that I cannot imagine that most people are not of
the same opinion. Some astonishment must surely
be felt in the quarters that judge us in so singular
a fashion at seeing in the assembly of the repre-
sentatives of the nation so much calmness, modera-

tion, and respect towards the Church. They surely
must be struck at seeing our most catholic deputies
—a great deal too catholic in my opinion—sitting
on the benches of the extreme left.

Join, then, gentlemen, in this imposing ma-
nifestation—give to the vote of the Chamber the
sanction of your vote. Support by your high
authority the policy of the Government. It
will derive great strength from the approval of
this illustrious and grave assembly, the guardian of
social order, and natural protector of conservative
interests. Br persevering firmly and resolutely,
without disturbing ourselves about momentary
misunderstandings nr pnagibie perils, we shall anon
wit' over the best part of the religious world to re-
cognise the loyalty that inspires us. It will be
recognised that what we propose is the only means
of ensuring the legitimate influence of the church in
Italy and in the rest of the world. In a short time,

I hope, voices will rise from the midst of catholic
society and will tell the Pope : "Accept the terms
which liberated Italy offers you, for they restore
freedom to the church and add to the lustre of the
Holy See; accept these terms, and the Italian na-
tion, while completing the work of its liberation,
will remain the most faithful of all to the genuine
spirit of religion."
The conclusion of Count Cavout's speech was re-
ceived with loud and prolonged applause.

Docks, where she has had her machinery put on
board by the contractors. The Undaunted on
reaching Sheerness brought up a little below the
Nore light, and yesterday came into harbour.
The Newcastle, 51, steam frigate, 600 horse
power, having had her engines and machinery fixed
on board at Sheerness, has been taken out of No. 3
dock, which is now occupied by the screw steamer
Anson, 91, 800 horse power, fitting for the steam
reserve. The Newcastle got her steam up yesterday
for the first time, when the engines were found to
work in a very satisfactory manner.
The Icarus, 11, screw, Commander N. Salmon,
V.C., was undocked at Portsmouth yesterday, and
placed at a berth in the harbour. She will try her
• machinery on Monday.
The Octavia, 51, screw, was yesterday floated out
of dock at Portsmouth, on her completion of her
lengthening and conversion from a sailing ship to
a screw, and towed round to the steam basin to
receive her machinery. She will be fitted with
three cylinder engines and surface condensers. The
ship has not been lengthened by the bow, but
merely amidships, with the necessary length added
to her stern to adapt it to the screw, and will, for
this reason, as well as owing to her peculiar form
of bottom, carry but a small quantity of fuel.
The screw steamships Donegal, 101, Commander
Henry Broadhead, the Aboukir, 90, Capt. Douglas
Curry, and Centurion, 80, Capt. H. D. Rogers,
C. 8., went on Wednesday afternoon from Hamoaze
into Plymouth Sound. A draught of ordinary
seamen were sent yesterday morning from the In-
dus to the screw steamship Conqueror, 101, Capt.
Edward Sotheby, C.B. That ship and the Hero,
91, Capt. Alfred P. Ryder, were appointed to follow
the others yesterday afternoon from Hamoaze into
the Sound; they have crossed royal and topgallant
yards.

The screw steamship Gibraltar, 101, at Devon-
port, is receiving coal for the purpose of making
another trial of her engines with an altered pitch
to her screw propeller.
The gunboat Hind, tender to the Russell, 60,
went yesterday alongside the Royal William Vic-
tualling-yard, Plymouth, where she received a
draught of Royal Marines, and proceeded to Fal-
mouth.

The gunboats Nightingale and Hyena were re-
moved yesterday from the basin of Keyham Steam-
yard. The screw steam frigate Orlando, 51, has
been removed from Hamoaze into the basin, and
will be placed in No. 1 dock when vacated to-day
by the gunboat Speedy.
Thefollowing appointments were made yesterday
at the Admiralty :—Lieut. William Cashman, to
the Colossus, additional for the Coastguard service ;
Lieut. H. L. C. Robinson, to the Edinburgh ; James
Jenkins, surgeon tb the Plymouth Division of the
Royal Marines; Thomas Pattison, third-class as•
sistant-engineer to the Hornet; Charles S. Giles,
paymaster to the Conqueror; James M. Lowcay,
paymaster to the Aboukir; W. C. P. Grant, pay-
master to the Edgar ; George A. Rowe, clerk, as
supernumerary to the Fis,gard ; Mr. Malcolm H.
Drummond has been nominated to a naval cadet-
ship.