The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-31 00:00:00

and Stamps, the fixed revenue of the country, was £500,000
more than in the corresponding period before those oc-
currences. (Cheers.) Judging, therefore, of the future
from the past, I do not think we have need to be under any
anxiety on the subject. (Hoar, hear.) Passing from that
topic, I must observe that the state in which the house is
this evening is certainly a remarkable contrast to that which
the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
stated to have been its condition on the occasion when the
vote on the paper duty was before taken. 1 his certainly is
not a languid house ; nor is the vote likely to be a sleepy
vo' e. (Laughter and cheers.) We are told that hon. mem-
bers have come down to givo•freely, and without reference
to party considerations, those votes which on mature re-
flection in their study they may be led to give on the repeal
of the paper duty. (Laughter.) Why, Sir, I dare say that
that is the case. (Renewed laughter.) At all events, the
vote of this night will be one remarkable for the manner in
which different conflicting opinions have, without any party
object whatever, been brought to concur in a single vote.
(Laughter and cheers.) We are going to have a vote
against the repeal of the paper duty by tbose who on for-
mer occasions voted against that repeal, and by those who
decidedly and enthusiastically voted for it. (Cheers and
laughter.) We are going to have the same vote given by
those who denied the existence of a surplus, and by those
who exhibited a wish to diminish the surplus which my
right hon. friend proposed as the result of the financial year.
We are going to have the same vote given by those who
advocated a repeal or remission on the duty on tea, by those
who on former occasions demanded a reduction of the Ex-
cise duties, and by those who supported a repeal of the
income :tax. We are going to have the same vote given
by Freetraders and Protectionists. We are going to see
every variety of opinion merged into one common vote,
and we are told that this is not a party vote. (Hear,
hear.) We are told by the right hon. baronet who has just
spoken, and who has just censured what he calls a party
manoeuvre, that there is nothing of party in this vote. In-
deed, on the contrary, we are assured by many of the hon.
members who have spoken in this debate that there is
nothing which hon. gentlemen opposite have at heart so
much as to maintain and support the existing Government.
(Laughter and cheers.) Well, sir, at last we shall come to
an end of this long debate—(hear)---and if we wanted any
authority for the opinion that this debate has lasted an un-
usual time, it is afforded us by the first sentence of the
speech of the right hon. baronet, who stated that he be-
lieved he was almost the only Member of the hcuse who had
not spoken on the discussion. (Laughter.) Therefore, Sir,
I may be excused for saying this has been a long debate,
and that hon. gentlemen have had a full opportunity of
making up those independent opinions and uniting them in
one harmonious whole which are to characterise the divi-
sion to-night. (Laughter and cheers.) But I hope that, in
spite of this fortuitous concurrence of discordant atoms in
one united vote, hon. members will remember that we are
deciding a most important question of financial regulation;
that they will bear in mind all those arguments that have
been refuted by those who have spoken on this side of the
house, and will not be led away by the conflicting, and I
may say by the unfounded, arguments of those who have
spoken against the proposition of the Government. (Great
laughter and cheers.) Almost every one has concurred that
the paper duty is vicieus and hurtful in itself. (No, no, and
hear, hear.) Gentlemen on the other side of the house have
argued, and confirmed that argument by their votes, that
this tax ought to be repealed on the earliest occasion on
which the finances of the country will allow of its repeal.
(Hear, hear.) It has been proved and admitted that the
tax is one which not only imposes a burden on the indus-
trial exertions of the country, but is promotive of impedi-
ments to any fresh operations in the particular branch of
trade on which it is levied. My right hon. friend has re-
minded the house that this is the last remnant of an objec-
tionable system of Excise duties ; that we are not inaugu-
rating any new system of finance, but only completing a
system which has been sanctioned by many of the most
competent authorities in former times as well as at the
present in all that relates to the commercial transactions of
. the country. (Hear, hear.) 1 do, therefore, hope that no
extraneous matter—no question of party, independent of
the matter at issue, will affect the votes on the division
which is about to take place. Relying on the assurance
which has been given, that hon. gentlemen are going
to vote free from all party considerations, and on a full
and mature consideration of the case—and believing and
being convinced that the merits of the case are clear as the
sun at noonday—(laughter)—l confidently look to the
result of the division which is to decide the question on
which we are now about to pronounce our opinion. (Cheers.)
The committee then divided. The process of numbering
the votes occupied fully 20 minutes, during which the
greatest excitement prevailed. When the respective tellers
entered the house and having declared the numbers, upon
the clerk handing the total paper to Mr. Brand an outburst
of cheering occurred from the Ministerial side which lasted
for several minutes, upon the subsidence of which the
numbers were declared to be—

For the clause ....
Against
Majority for the Government —l5
The other clauses and the schedules were then agreed to,
and the bill ordered to be reported to the house.
Colonel FRENCH called the attention of the house to
the statement made by the noble lord the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs ; that statement he considered prejudicial
to the honour and independence of the Irish members of
the house. (" Oh, oh.") The noble lord, he understood.
stated that a deputation of Irish members had applied for
an interview with the Prime Minister on the subject of the
Galway contract. On the part of all the Irish members
with whom he had spoken, he declared that there was no
foundation for this statement. They had never thought of
asking an interview with the noble lord; and, under the
circumstances, he did not believe that any Irish members
would have attended such an interview. A certain indi%
dual, not representing the Irish members, did have a con-
versation with the noble lord at the head of the Govern-
ment ; he (Colonel French) had asked him whether he had
made any statement to the noble lord that might compro-
mise the honour and independence of the Irish members,
and he (Colonel French) was authorised to state that the
report was wholly desitute of foundation. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMER•STON said—l will answer the statement
of the hon. member instead of my noble friend, as what the
hon. gentleman has said is founded on a communication
made to me. My noble friend did not state that any pro-
posal for a deputation had been authorised by the Irish
members. What passed I will state exactly as it occurred.
There is no use concealing names. Father—that is Mr.—
Daly— (l aught er) —carae to me ouSaturday, and urged many
reasons why the decision of the Government with regard
to the Galway contract should be rescinded. I stated to
Mr. Daly that I did not consider him authorised to represent
anybody, and declined to enter into any discussion with
him about the contract, as I did not consider him the am-
bassador of the Irish members in general, or of the Galway
Company in particular. I said it was a publio question;
that the hon. member for Galway had given notice of a
motion on the subject, and that the question must be dis-
cussed publicly in the House of Commons, tot privately in
my room. (Cheers.) Mr. Daly said, if I would not dis-
cuss it with him would I do so with a deputation of Irish
members ? I said I did not see that it was a matter be-
tween me and the Irish members, but between the Govern-
ment and the Galway Company ; nor did I see what the
Irish members had to do with it more than to take part in
the discussion that must follow on the motion. (Laughter.)
Mr. Daly said I was mistaken, because the Irish members
must take some action on the subject. I said "Yes, tha ac-
tion will be on the discussion." (Cheers, and laughter.)
Well, Mr. Daly said, "That won't exactly do (laughter) ;
I wish to bring a deputation of Irish members to you on
Monday." But Monday I told him was the day appointed
for the Budget, and the Galway Contract is a different
question. (Laughter.) I said " There is no discussion on
Monday about the Galway contract. There is no reason
why I should receive a deputation on that day, and: more-
over, if I were to receive a deputation, I know already
everything they could say to me, and I can only tell them
what I tell you—namely, that it is a public question to
be discussed in the House of Commons, and not in a pri-
vate room in my house." (Hear, hear.) " Well, but,"
said Mr. Daly, "I am anxious that you should see them
must
takeust
baec
taken
no no then th e msubjecton .
o n
—(laughter)—and
gnhd
tasyr,)becausesn d
tha must
that
act
day evening." (Renewed laughter.) " Oh," said I,
"I now understand you—(much laughter)—and when it
they
is put to me in that way I must, with all deference and re-
spect for the Irish members, entirely decline seeing any of
them." (Cheers.) So the matter ended, and that is what
I stated to my noble friend as well as to my right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ido not know
what authority Mr. Daly had for anything which he said,
or for his undertaking to bring me a deputation of Irish
members. (Hear.) My noble friend did not say that he
was authorised, and it is for Mr. Daly and the Irish mem-
bers to settle this point between them. (Cheers and
laughter.)
Col. DUNNE said that no one had a right to go to the
noble lord and act in his name, or in that, he believed, of
any other Irish member. (Hear.) However much he might
condemn the conduct of the Government in reference to the
Galway contract, he would have equally opposed the finan-
cial measures of the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the con-
tract had been continued. (Hear, hear.) He opposed those
measures because he had no confidence, and his constitu-
ents had no confidence in the right hon. gentleman. (Hear,
hear.)
The bill was then ordered to be reported, and the house
resumed.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
house adjourned at 20 minutes to 2 o'clock.

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LONDON : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at TrIE Surf Office, No. 112,Strand,
in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the County of Middlesex
Friday, MAY 3111801.