The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-20 00:00:00

EVENING, JULY 20, 1861.

we shall not idly neglect the interests of this country when- —in part impaired from causes upon which I need not
ever they may be threatened with injury. (Cheers.) At dwell—conducive to those objects which were considered
the same time, to be continually expressing suspicion, to be , beneficial, but which he considers detrimental to the inte-
making the whole state of peace uneasy, would, I think, be rests of mankind. The charge which the hon. member
not only a puerile, but a very mischievous policy. It ought brought against the two noble lords for having pursued
to be our endeavour and has been our endeavour, wherever a party policy with regard to Italy, is one which is sin-
these threats of war occur, rather to compose the differences founded, and even refutes itself. But in other parts of his
which exist and strive to reconcile those among whom dis- speech the hon. gentleman himself betrayed his conscious-
cord is arising, and promote peace between them. The lion. ness that it was not a party, but a national policy, which
baronet who spoke second in this debate bas alluded more had been challenged by no party in this house, but a
than once to the question between Spain and Morocco. Our policy which represented the general and cordial senti-
endeavours have been directed on the one hand to inducing . meats of the people of this country. (Cheers.) The ad-
the Sultan of Morocco to keep faith with the kingdom of miration with which I have listened to the speech of the
Spain, and on the other hand to inducing the Spanish Go- hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) was somewhat
vernment to press their advantages in such a manner asmay qualified by the tone of that speech, and the somewhat
make reconciliation possible. And when gentlemen speak in narrow grounds on which he based his advocacy of the
a tone as if Spain was constantly acting in a spirit of agres- Italian cause. The hon. member wished to speak on behalf
sion and that the Spanish policy must be confounded with of what he called Young Italy. My hope for one is that
French policy, I must own that my view is a very different Young Italy has grown a little older. I confess I think
one. (Hear, hear.) I think it should be our policy to favour Italy has hitherto shown herself too young for the manage-
and encourage the spirit of independence which prevails meat of public affairs. The points of the policy of Young
among the various nations of Europe. (Hear.) And there Italy were the events of the year 1848 and 1849. I think
does prevail among the Spanish people as high a feeling of that the agency of an older and a wiser Italy is now mani -
independence as that which exists in any other continental feat in the better, sounder, and more beneficial •direction
country. In the last century, owing to the War of the Suc- which has been given to the course of affairs of that country
cession, there was a family alliance between France and during the last few years. I confess I can find no evidence
Spain,and whenever you found yourselves at war with France in support of the statement of my hon. friend with regard to
you also found that a war with Spain immediately followed ; the prevalence of popular dissatisfaction in Italy. No such
but there is no such family connexion at present. Spain, evidence certainly is to be found in the official papers. It is
which has been long weak, is recovering her strength ; and clear, however, that the 600 men to whom my hon. friend
that she should take her fitting part and fitting place among referred were soldiers who had been imprudently disbanded
the Powers of Europe is a thing not to be checked and dis- under what, I fear, was the influence of Young Italy.
couraged by Great Britain, but is rather a matter to be Some 10,000 or 12,000 men have been sent back to their
fostered by Great Britain as long as her own honour and homes—if homes they had—after their former habits of life
interests are not interfered with by that Power. My be- had been broken up by military service, and naturally
lief is that both the Queen of Spain and her Prime Minister amongst them were to be found a mixed assemblage of bri-
are favourably disposed towards this country. I have al- 1 gands and political partisans, who constitute a terrible source
ways endeavoured to assure them that we have no wish in- of public disorder, but furnish no proof of any popular dis-
consistent with the greatness and dignity of Spain, and affection. Then my hon. friend says the Italians must not
that they might rely on our friendship on any question in rest from making daily efforts to proceed on the road to
which they may be concerned. Look again at Italy. Gen- Rome aid Venice. But do we really advance the cause of
tlemen are very fond of representing Italy as a mere follower public liberty when we add to the difficulty of its rulers,
and vassal of France, and after her long contest with Aus- and sitting at ease within those walls, dictate to them the
tria she owes much to the army by which she was enabled rate and pace at which the Italians are to proceed. With
to obtain a victory that she could never otherwise have ac- respect to the explanation which I offered to the house last
complished. (Hear.) But notwithstanding these oblige- evening, and did not complete, what I wished to state was,
tions there are many matters in which she must rely upon in the case of the administration of the lawin Modena, I had
her own spirit, and to the hand of her own sons she must reason to believe that the youth Giardini was not executed. I
owe her real independence. It is they who, like Harmo- also wished further to state that punishments were inflicted
dius in giving liberty to Greece, must, in the noble lines of upon the inhabitants of Modena by the operation of an ex
Wordsworth,— post facto law, directed against offences committed by youths
" Give the gift which is not to be given under 21 years of age. This I am about to prove from
By all the blended powers of earth or heaven." documents, as to which the evidence is perhaps not quite
It is not in the power of France to make Italy ; it is she conclusive. But in the year 1859-60, very shortly after the
herself who, by her own strength and patience and wisdom expulsion of the Grand Duke, there was published at Mo-
must build up her independence, and if she does not do so, dena a work, the statements of which have, as far as I know,
all the Powers in Europe cannot do it for her. (Cheers.) never been contradicted, whilst, if they are false or forged,
What we have done has not been to assist in this work, but the fraud can readily be exposed. In everything I only
to require that other Powers should not prevent itfrom being spoke upon the authority of documents which were open
accomplished ; and the Emperor of the French has held the to the world, and if in any particular instance I misunder-
same language with regard to intervention, he would not stood them lam sorry the correction was not given earlier.
allow foreign Powers to interfere in Italy. But while such Upon the point in question, it is true that capital punish-
has been hit policy, there has been among the subjects—per- meat was made applicable by an ex post facto decree to
haps in an even greater degree among those who are opposed youths of tender years charged with homicide.
to his dynasty—a feeling that the creation of an independent Sir G. BOWYER—Of what age ?
Kingdom of Italy, with many millions of subjects, pursuing The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I will
its own policy and following out its own destiny, was tell you presently. (Hear.) In September, 1857, the Duke
an obstacle to the greatness of France. You trace that feel- of Modena apFointed a military commission in his capital
ing in speeches, and in all the pamphlets and publications to try offences by military law. The action of that commis-
in France ; they hold that it is a mistake for France to sion was not confined to offences committed after the date
assist in forming a strong Italy. That I hold to be a great of its establishment, but it was authorised to deal with
mistake on the part of French politicians—(hear)—and I offences which had been committed for a very considerable
believe that. the jealousy which is thus shown will diminish period—l think two years, or more, but at all events a con-
the influence which France naturally possesses in Italy. siderable period—before it was thus established. Those
But still it is not now in this power of France to prevent the offences were in the first instance put under the action of
kingdom of Italy from being constituted, and when it is military law—and it was stated, I should say, that persons
constituted we shall have an additional security for the capitally condemned should be executed within four-and-
liberties and independence of Europe. (Hear, hear.) It was twenty hours. (Hear, hear.) On the 7th of October, in
one of the recommendations addressed to us in the course the same year, the military commandant, whose name did
of this debate that we should be watchful with regard to all not much resemble an Italian but sounded more like an
changes which might take place in Europe. With that re- Austrian one, was authorised to apply capital' punishment
commendation I perfectly agree ; we should be to blame if to cases that would havelieen subjected to the action of the
we did not act in that spirit. The hon. gentleman and the ordinary tribunals, and embracing cases committed long
hon. baronet added another recommendation, that while before by youths under 15 years of age. (Cheers.) A
great armaments were going on in Europe we should not law resembling our rule of king's evidence, which was not
disarm. That piece of advice I consider as sound as the previously the law of the country, was also introduced—
other. (Hear.) It is a great misfortune for England, and it and it was provided by the same edict that soldiers
is a great misfortune for Europe, that such costly arena- (under the military command of the judges) should be
meats should be kept up in time of peace ; but we should specially qualified to appear as witnesses. (Hear, hear.)
not remedy that if we were to disarm—(general cries of I am very much obliged to the house for the manner in
"Hear, hear")—and to leave other nations to increase their which it has listened to this explanation. (Cheers.)
preparations. I trust that no shortsighted view of our inte- I sincerely wish it had been in my power
rests, no narrow spirit of saving with regard to any particu- to make a general retractation and abandonment of these
lar tax, will induce this country, in the present state of charges, but there is no possibility of any inference of that
Europe and the world, to maintain a navy and an army kind. This book has been published, and has been open for
which are not adequate in all respects to the position we inspection, part of it for a year and part of it for more than
ought to occupy. (Loud cheers, especially from the Opposi- two years, but, so far as lam aware, no denial flits authen-
tion benches.) Not merely the greatness, but the very safety deity has ever been given. (Cheers.)
of this country is concerned in her state of preparation. So Mr. LAYARD said it was his conviction that Count
far from increasing the probability of war, as some have Cavour had never intended to deceive England. (Oh.)
thought, I believe the knowledge that this country is strong Hon. members might laugh, but he believed that the noblest
is not only advantageous for our interests, but is a weapon trait in Count Cavour's character was his love of truth. He
in the hand of every other power that seeks for independence had seen his earliest letters, and nothing had struck him
and for liberty. (Hear.) The knowledge that this country is more in those letters and in Count Cavour's subsequent
able, and in a just cause is ready to assume the offensive, at career than his love of truth. (Hear, hear.) Take the case
the same time that she prizes the blessings which result of Savoy and Nice. There was no doubt that when he met
from peace and the prosperity of her own commerce and the "Pamperer at Plouibleres a tliacession took Oa.o oo to the
manufacture, is, I believe, a guarantee for the independence cession of Nice and Savoy; for he (Mr. Layard) had seen
of nations, and a security at the same time for the peace of it in his own handwriting. What he (Count Cavour) said
Europe. (Hear, hear.) And now, sir, let me add, in the was, that the Emperor, after he had discussed the probable
same spirit in which I have spoken—that of discounte- campaign in Italy, stated to him that if Lombardy and
nancing needless and irritating suspicions—that I think it Venetia went to Piedmont he should, as an Emperor of the
my duty not to agree with the motion for the production of French, not as Louis Napoleon, but as a French sovereign
papers at the present moment. When the Government carrying out a natural policy which had existed for a long
think that any public benefit can be gained by the produc- period, insist on the surrender to France of Savoy and Nice.
tion of papers on this subject they will not hesitate to do Count Cavour gave no written engagement or verbal pro-
so ; but I hope the house will confide so far in us as to be- miss ; but he stated that when all that was accomplished,
lieve that we shall not neglect any opportunity of meeting the Emperor might appeal to the people of Savoy and Nice,
in the proper manner any dangers which may arise. and if the population expressed a wish to be united to France,
(Cheers.) the matter should be considered by the King of Sardinia.
Mr. STANSFELD expatiated at considerable length That agreement, such as it was, had never been denied by
upon the policy which, in his opinion, the kingdom of Italy Count Cavour. It was known to many persons, and it was
should pursue—a national policy, apart frcm any foreign told to him (Mr. Layard). After the peace of Villafranca
alliance—and explained the basis upon which that policy was concluded,, without any cession of territory, the Em-
should rest. peror resigned his claim to Savoy and Nice ; and that re-
Sir G. BOWYER condemned the foreign policy of the signation was stated in so many words, not only to Count
Government; he considered that it was accommodated to Cavour, but to other persons who had told it to him (Mr.
the state of parties in this country and to the securing of Layard) as having heard it from his own mouth. After
votes, and that its effect had been to lay Italy at the feet of those events, however, which united the Duchies, the
France. He was glad to see the Chancellor of the Exehe- Legations, and the Grand Duchy to Piedmont, the Em-
quer looking at him—(laughter)—because he was the chief peror revived his claim. The honourable member (Mr.
offender in this respect. The hon. member gave a fearful Kinglake) said that Sir James Hudson stated on the 10th
picture of what he represented to be the present condition of February that Count Cavour said there was no intention
of Southern Italy. on the part of the King of Piedmont to cede the territory
' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I am of Savoy and Nice, and he (Mr. Layard) was satisfied that
bound to acknowledge without delay the compliment the count had then no intention whatever to mislead. Until
hon. friend has paid me. He has gone so far as to designate
my
the middle of February the Emperor himself did not intend
me to the house under what I consider the highly honour- to demand the cession of those provinces. Count Cavour
able title of the chief offender. If I thought my hon. friend
still resisted, and until about the 23d of February he refused
really knew who are the revolutionary party in Italy, I
to listen to the Emperor's demand, and Count Benedetti
should disclaim his compliment, but lam glad to be called then went to Turin to put a pressure upon Count Cavour,
the chief offender in promoting the designs of those he de- and threatened that if the cession was not made by March,
signates the revolutionary party—(hear)—for they are, in in time to announce it at the opening of the Legislative
my conviction, the friends alike of freedom and of order. Chambers, the Emperor would march his troops into Tus-
(Hear, hear.) But my honourable friend does me a great cant'. About the 25th of February Count Cavour ceded,
deal more than justice—he calls me the chief offender in but with the greatest possible pain and reluctance. He had
the presence of my two noble friends, whose influence, to choose between the sacrifice of a great scheme and the
l authority, experience, and services entitle them to the lees of the two provinces. He believed Count Cavour was
withering denunciations—(a laugh)—of my hon. friend op- justified in what he did, for he yielded to dire necessity.
posite in a far higher degree than I can ever possibly aspire The punishment of the Emperor of the French for the
to. But if we are to speak of the true revolutionary party— course he had pursued had already fallen upon him—he had
if we are to speak of the agencies which produce disorder in forfeited his word and honour. Count Cavour had gone to
states and disgrace society, then I tell my hon. friend who
his grave, but a more honourable, honest, and truthful man
is the chief agent of the revolutionary party, and who has had never lived.
done the most to favour it—it is himself—(cheers) and those Mr. P. HENNESSY denied the accuracy of the right
whose cause he so consistently, and so courageously, and at hon. gentleman's denunciations of the Duke of Modena,
the same time in manner and temper so inoffensively re- and quoted several extracts from the blue-books for the
commends to us—they it is who have been the great pro- purpose of showing the disaffected state of the South of
motors of the revolutionary movements and agencies in Italy, and the little reliance to be place on the right hon.
Italy. The hon. member deals with matters of fact, and gentleman's statements.
partly with matters of argument. His matters of fact are
After a few words from Mr. KINNAIRD, the motion was
these—that all the people of Southern Italy are repenting negatived.
of what they have done in permitting and taking part in
the ejection of the Bourbon family. And my hon. friend
comes and claims as usual implicit reception for his facts,
though they are in entire contradiction to the papers lately
laid on the table, which contain no indication whatever of
this popular sentiment. (Hear, hear.) But my hon, friend
is perfectly ready with his remedy, which is to denounce
the papers written by the diplomatists of England as the
productions of understrappers and underlings, and calcu-
lated to blind the country. He therefore asks us to accept
his unsupported assertions without evidence to credit them,
in direct opposition to those statements which we receive
from authorised agents of the executive government. Then
what was his main argument ? Because you have taken
an active part by giving your moral support, because you
have induced the Italian people to regulate their own con-
cerns, by this atrocious act of conspiring in favour of the
liberties of that oppressed nation, you have forfeited all
right and title to contribute anything to the balance of
power and to the maintenance of the peace of Europe.
That was the pith of the argument of my hon. friend. I
think that if the hon. member for Bridgewater (Mr. King-
lake) had heard the speech of the hon. gentleman, and the
compliments that had been paid to him, he would have
listened to them with a sort of chilled sensation. (A laugh.)
The hon. member does, I think, occasionally take a gloomy
and suspicious view of the progress of events in Europe.
But I confess that if there are any indications that grave
and serious event was contemplated—l mean the cession of
Sardinia to France, such indications of a trustworthy nature
are unknown to me. Then I must allude to what fell from
my hon. friend on the subject of the French alliance. 'When
he finds the Government of England conspiring with the
Government of France for unworthy purposes, then let
him denounce the alliance; but I venture to think that one
of the merits of the alliance is that it can never be turned to
unworthy purposes. For whenever one country attempts
to substitute selfish and aggressive purposes for those which
are conducive to the general good, at that moment the other
country is sure to become the first witness against it, and
the rupture or weakening of that alliance will tend to its
destruction. But, in point of fact, why is the hon. member
for Dundalk so jealous of the alliance ? If England had
continued to send troops to Rome, or to maintain the Bour-
bonshe
at Naples, with what show of demonstration wolald
trumpet forth the wonderful merits of the French al
His censure amounts to this. It is a clear and certain a.43
mopstration that the effects of the apieceo.l*9 Qll tigs Wille9l

MERCHANT SHIPPING.

Mr. LINDSAY asked the President of the Board of
Trade to state what wero the intentions of the Government
with regard to the Merchant Shipping Bill ?

Mr. LIDDELL said he knew that considerable disap-
pointment existed among the shipping interest that this
great subjeot had not been dealt with in the present session,
and he suggested that it would be convenient that a bill
should be brought in that it might be discussed during the
recess.

Mr. GIBSON said it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to have given effect to the remaining recommenda-
tions of the committee, and for this purpose two bills were
brought in, one for the abolition of passing tolls and for the
termination of certain dues that were levied on shipping,
and the other was for the amendment of the pilotage laws,
and on questions relating to the liability of shipowners, and
so forth. Having but a limited portion of the time of the
house at his command he thought it better to proceed with
but one of these bills before he attempted to proceed with
the other ; but the other bill was prepared. Now it was
obvious, from the various important subjects with which
the house had to deal, that a matter of this kind could only
occupy a certain portion of time, and with every desire to
pass the measure he really had not found himself able.
With regard to laying a bill on the table of the house, with-
out intending to proceed with it, be had great doubts
whether such a course was advantageous to the public in-
terest. The house would be impatient of the explanations
of a measure which they were not to proceed with, and he
thought it was not fair to any measure to throw it on the
table of the house without those explanations which were
calculated to meet objections. On that ground, and also
because it was a complicated measure, and that during the
recess more consideration might be given to it, he thought
it better not to introduce a measure this session, but he
hoped it might be possible to introduce it early next session.
THE CASE OF LIEUTENANT ALLEN.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he wished to ask a question of the
EatTerhaetisonrs:KouEßld
thbeenmlaod:
tthoepreehvaeir,
Judge-Advocate with reference to the c .
Mutiny Act of this year
case of Lieutenant
Allen, late of the 82d Regiment,
Mr. I-lEADLAM said in the
(hose taken by Lieut. Allen at a futureprevent
such
but the Chairmanproceedings as
into committee of supply, andtim
ethe house went
`into
witb,nt „ reported pro-
aki vote being taken,

BILL.
On the second reading of this bill,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained of the way in which
the bill had been brought forward, and of the late hour at
which the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for India
proceeded with it.

Sir C. WOOD explained the objects of the bill.

SUPPLY.

The report of the committee of supply was brought up
and agreed to.
THE METROPOLITAN GAS ACT AMENDMENT

BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
SALMON FISHERIES (SCOTLAND, &c.) BILL.

On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. ROBERTSON opposed the bill, which he said would
have the effect of placing the salmon fishing in all the rivers
of Scotland in the hands of a limited number of large pro-
prietors. The measure would encourage poaching, and give
rise to great dissatisfaction among the people of Scotland'
and he hoped that his hon. friend who had charge of it
would not press going into committee.
Mr. KINNAIRD was also in favour of delay.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that as almost all the
Scotch members thought that the bill ought to pass this
year, and as it was the best they were likely to get, it was
not his intention to postpone the measure.
The house then went into committee upon the bill.
Upon the first clause,
Mr. ROBERTSON moved that the Chairman report
progress.

The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For reporting progress l4
Against it
The clause having been agreed to,
Mr. BLACK moved that the committee be counted; and
it being found that only 33 members were present, on the
return of the Speaker the house was counted, when 37
members only were present, and the sitting was suspended
at twenty•five minutes past two.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

LIVERPOOL-JULY 19.

There was a small attendance of the town and country
trade at this morning's market; and we had only a retail
business doing in wheat ; sales for best sorts at Tuesday's
rates, inferior 2d per rental cheaper than late quotations.
Flour was in fair demand, at 6d per barrel less money, but
good sorts were scarce. Oats and oatmeal rather steady.
Beans, Egyptian, declined 6d to is on the week. Peas and
barley at Tuesday's prices. Indian corn varies much in
condition, and irregular in value—new mixed American
ranges from 27s Gd to 28s Gd per qr, and prime old brought
29s to 29s 6d.