The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-26 00:00:00

mittee was any encouragement to appoint another, in order
to investigate the same subject. He believed the committee
was fairly selected, and it should be recollected that Mr.
Whitworth himself was a member of it. The committee
made their report, and it appeared different opinions were
entertained by persons who were competent to judge of the
subject. It was not correct to say, that no further steps
had been taken. And it was intended that a trial should
take place between an Enfield bore and one manu-
factured by Mr. Whitworth from the Enfield. The trial
had actually commenced he believed, and was in progress
under the Ordnance Select Committee. Lord Hardinge
said that the country required 1,000,000 rifles, and he was
happy to say that they had 800,000, either made or under
contract. They were, therefore, progressing satisfactorily
in respect of that class of small arms. But if they were to
introduce a fresh bore the effect of that would be, not only
that they should re-arm the army at a cost which could be
easily calculated— these rifles costing no less Chan LI a-piece
—but the whole of the ammunition in store would become
valueless. (Hear.) Therefore, it was essential that no
change of that sort should be made without careful con-
sideration, without its being perfectly apparent that the
change was desirable and necessary. It was no light mat-
ter to change the muskets in the hands of an army. It
was admitted that the Enfield rifle was as good as the rifle
of any army in the world ; and it would lead to enormous
expence and inconvenience if they were now all at once to
alter the bore of that weapon. He was not prepared to as-
sent to the motion, because a committee of that house was
not, in the opinion of the Government, a competent tri-
bunal to decide satisfactorily on a scientific question like
this. Experiments would necessarily have to be made, and
it was impossible for a committee of that house to superin-
tend those experiments. For this reason, therefore, he must
decline to accede to the motion of his hon . friend. (Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that the breech-loading rifle
was as superior to the Enfield as the Enfield was superior
to the old arm, and he hoped a committee would be ap•.
pointed to investigate the subject.
Captain JERVIS said that this question ought not to be
regarded as one between Mr. Whitworth and the Govern-
ment. The object was to get the best weapon for the army.
How were a committee to investigate which was the best
weapon ? The experiments should be carried on at Shoe-
, buryness. There was not the slightest hostility to Mr.
Whitworth or any one else on the part of the committee.
The object was to procure the best arm for the army, and
the Government had adopted that which at the time had
been proved to be the best.
Mr. MONSELL said that every effort had been made by
the Government to procure the best weapon, but he agreed
with the hon. gentleman who made the motion that the Go-
vernment should take speedy measures to test the relative
merits of these rifles. He did not agree with him, how-
ever, in thinking that a committee would much help them
to a solution of that question. They wanted to know what
was the best weapon, and the cheapest, and then they
would be able to decide for themselves. He thought her
Majesty's Government ought to have been more active
during the last few years in this matter.
Lord ELCHO believed for himself that it was as clear as
day that the Whitworth was superior to the Enfield ; but
the Government ought to take speedy steps to place this
beyond any doubt. It was proved by the experiments at
Hythe that the average mean deflection of the Enfield was
17 inches at 500 yards, and of the Whitworth only 6
inches. Of the best weapons the mean deflection of the
Enfield was 12 inches ; of the Whitworth, 31. As re-
garded the question of the large bore there had been an
impression on the minds of sportsmen that they must
have a large bore in order to kill deer, but Mr. Lancaster
having introduced a small bore rifle there was now not a
deer• stalker who went out with a large bore rifle. They
could hit the deer much easier with a small bore than with
a large one. He had heard it stated that during the recent
war in Italy the Austrian soldiers had a small bore rifle and
the French a large one, and that therefore they did not
come out to fight again after being disabled so soon as the
French. But the great thing was to disable the enemy
for the time, and that was gaining some advantage. Now,
as to fouling, the opinion of General Hay was that there
was no fear of the small bore rifle becoming foul, and he
was also of opinion that the small bore rifle would be the
best military arm to adopt, and he (Lord Elcho) had heard
from General Hay that he was not satisfied with the manner
in which the committee conducted their experiments. lie
thought it would be desirable if some independent inquiry
by members of that house could be made as to the best mode
of testing small arms, and ascertaining the results, and it
would be well if they would examine General Hay and
other military authorities on the subject. It should be
remembered that Mr. Whitworth was not a gun-maker,
but the prince of tool-makers, and an outsider, and there-
fore there could be no doubt that there was some little
feeling of prejudice against him. But it would be well
if the Government would consider the opinion of Gene-
ral Hay, who had no interest to serve in this matter. All
that he had to do at Hythe was to try every musket sent
there, and the result of every small arm, of whatever
country, so tried was registered, and the figures might be
seen by any hon. member. (Hear, hear.) The National
Rifle Association, when her Majesty graciously offered a
prize of £250, thought that, for the honour of England, the
longest possible range should be adopted, and if they had
thought the Enfield rifle could carry 1,000 yards they would
have recommended it, because it was the weapon with
which the majority of the volunteers were armed. They
could not, however, depend upon that rifle for extreme
accuracy at a range above 600 yards, and the result
of all their experiments was in favour of Mr. Whit-
worth's rifle, and the Queen's prize would be shot for
from that arm. In 1852, at the desire of Lord Hardinge,
experiments were made, and they gave this result—that at
a distance of 500 yards there was a mean elevation of 35
inches ; while, in 1857, Mr. Whitworth had constructed a
rifle which when fired from the shoulder, at the same dis-
tance, gave only a deviation of 4/ inches. (Hear, hear.)
These figures showed the great improvements which had
taken place in the manufacture of small arms during the
last few years, and how desirable it was that the Government
should make further experiments. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CROSSLEY said what had made Lancashire and
Yorkshire so celebrated was the great improvements in
machinery made by machinery and not by hand, and in
that part of the country Mr. Whitworth had taken a high
position. Now, if they appointed a committee of members
of that house, they would be able to examine into all the
improvements made in small arms which would be brought
before them from all parts of the world ; and for his own
part he should be much better satisfied in voting the sup.
plies, if he knew they would bs turned to the best advun-
tage in producing the best arms. (Hear, hear.)

Lord PALMERSTON would assure the house that the
Government were fully alive to the necessity of watching all
these improvements, in order that they might furnish the
army with the best possible weapon. The great improve-
ments made during the last few years would be sufficient
proof that the Government hal given their best attention
to the subject. But as had been stated by his hon. friend
near him, this was an inquiry which belonged to the War
Department of the Government rather than to the House of
Commons. With all deference to the house, of late there
had been a tendency to assume to themselves the executive
and administrative functions of the Government ; and those
were functions which the house could not properly or use-
fully perform. A committee would be able to examine per-
sons, but it would be requisite that there sheuld be some
persons capable of verifying the reports of those whomthey
might examine, and that eould only be done by the War
Departmer.t. There was m reason to suppose that the War
Department and those whcm they employed could have any
prejudice in the matter or interest to serve in coming to a
decision ; their only desire was to arrive at the truth, and
to secure the best weapon for the army, and not only as
regarded the superiority of one weapon over an-
other, but whether it would be such as
to counterbalance the extra expenses and other matters
consequent upon a change of the small arms of the service.
The Government were at this time pursuing those very
inquiries which the noble lord said ought to be one of the
objects of the committee, and he thought the matter ought
to be left in their hands. (Hear, hear.)
Col. VIVIAN, in reply, would withdraw any imputation
which might have been cast upon the impartiality of the
committee, and begged to withdraw his motion.
Colonel D. PENNANT was glad to hear that the hon.
gentleman had withdrawn the charge which he had made
against the committee, for he could hardly conceive that
they were iafitienced by any feeling of partiality in the per-
formance of the &Wee thrown upon them. (II ear.)
The motion was then by leave of the Louse withdrawn.
CO-OPERATIVE AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES.
Mr. SLANEY obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
and extend the act relating to co-operative and provident
societies.