The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

so in India not many months ago ? (Hear.) I say, therefore, '
this is not a principle that can be adopted by English poli-
ticians. The only parts of Italy held by Germany are Venetia
and the Quadrilateral. I press on the noble lord opposite and
the noble lord at the head of the Government—and I do so in
consequence of what was said by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer—the danger of the course they are pursuing in en-
deavouring to exclude Austria from her dominion in Venetia.
(Oh, oh.) I am much accustomed to that dismal sound—
(laughter)—but I must have something more than that
sonorous " Oh !"—I must have an answer. And what I am
asking for, and what I am endeavouring to discover, is some
counterpoise to the power of France—(hear, hear)—some
counterpoise to her interference in Italy, which shall pre-
vent the Italian people from becoming the slaves and vas-
sals of France. Considering both the interests of England
and Italy, I say it is our duty to prevent the expulsion of
Austria from Venetia at present. I know this is an un-
popular view. (Hear.) Oh, I have no doubt of it. (Laughter.)
It has been my fate very often to bring forward unpopular
ideas in this house ; but the curious thing is, that what was
popular when I first mentioned it, has become the creed of
this house. (Laughter.) I will mention a particular case.
The hon. member for Leeds is laughing, but it was before
his time. (Renewed laughter.) In the year 1835 I made
certain propositions with regard to our colonial rule, and 1
recollect the time when I was considered a traitor and not an
Englishman for doing so. I want to know whether there
is a single word which I then uttered, a single demand
which I then made for the colonies, which has not been
granted—(hear, hear)—and whether you have not adopted
in your colonial policy the very rule which I recommended,
and which was so unpopular at the time ? (Hear, hear.)
When such a change has taken place on an important
point in the views of the noble lord the Minister for Foreign
Affairs, may I not hope that—unlike the member for
Brighton, who meets me with a sonorous " Oh !"—he
will listen to my arguments, and, possibly, to adopt them.
We have made an alliance with France; and I will ask any
man who has studied the history or the geography of Europe
whether our natural continental ally is not Austria. But
it is said that Austria is at the head of the despotism of
Europe. Austria was at the head of the despotism of Eu-
rope ; but Austria is now a constitutional Government.
(Laughter.) There is a great prophet come among us, and
that prophet is the member for Southwark. He laughs at
the idea ; but I want to know whether our conduct to Ire-
land before 1829 was not quite as bad as that of Austria to
her subjects. In 1829 we changed our policy, and from
that time to this our policy has been different. I believe
Ireland is well governed now; but I believe that our policy
before 1829 was bad, was cruel, was unjust. Well, then
we changed, and Austria has changed, and the Constitution
which she has granted to her people is as liberal as our
own. (A loud cry of "Hear" from Hr. White, the mem-
ber for Brighton, which caused considerable laughter.) I
am Lot a nervous man or I do not know what might have
been the effect on me of that very melodious cry of the hon.
member. (Renewed laughter.) I say that on paper the
Constitution of Austria is as liberal as ours, and what is it
that makes me believe that that policy will be persevered
in ? The interests of Austria—the interests of the house
of Hapsburg. If Austria attempted to depart from it—if
she were to go back to the old days of 1849—the house of
Hapsburg would disappear from Germany, the Austrian
throne would be overturned, the whole empire would be split
up into parts, and we should see the various nations around
enriched by her dissolution; (Hear, hear.) No one knows
better that this is the case than the leading men of Aus-
tria. They have told me so. (Hear, hear.) The policy of
England ought to be to support Austria, because she has no
interests opposed to those of England. The hon. member
for Southwark talks of the Austrians—the brutal Austrians.
(Hear, hear.) I want to know, when you set soldiers
against a besieged town, is there any country in Europe
whose army is not brutal ? What do you say of Badajos—
what do you say of St. Sebastian ? I say that if you put
soldiers before a town, and they take it by assault, there is
no crime that is not committed, no brutality that is not per-
petrated, nothing shocking to humanity that does not oc-
cur; and among the nations that ought to blush by reason
of such deeds is England. There is no man who hears me
speak but does not know that from youth upwards. I have
always been called a thoroughgoing John. Bull. (.A laugh.)
I am not a big John Bull, but I am a John Bull. My sym-
pathies are with my country ; and I believe I have all the
prejudices, all the peculiarities, and all the faults of my
countrymen. (Hear, hear, from Mr. White.) I think I
have read of some Roman orators who were accustomed to
have fighters by their side. Others had persons to make
gestures. The hon. member's interruptions remind me of
the services performed by those assistants—(laughter)—but
I am pretty well hardened, and I can bear these things.
I was asking the house to listen to my argument in respect
of our policy towards Austria, when I was interrupted by
the hon. member, and going back I wish to remind the
house that the Austria of the present time is not the Aus-
tria of the past. All our interests are, coincident with hers.
She exports corn, wool, wine, and hides—all which we de-
sire—but she does not export manufactures. (Hear.) And
be it remarked that Austria has no desire to compete with
us, not merely in commerce, but in war. (Hear.) She
builds no ships to be the rival of our navy. (Hear.) She
does not keep the world alive and disturbed by her aggres-
sive policy. (Hear, hear.) We have made friends, or at-
tempted to make friends, of those who did all these things.
Why should we not address ourselves to that great Power
of the Continent which would be our friend in difficult
times? Besides, Austria lies between Russia and Western
Europe; and depend upon it the words of the First Napo-
leon were prophetic—" Europe will be either Republican or
Cossack." The time will come when the attempt will be
made to make her Cossack ; the tima is now hovering over
us when we are threatened with an alliance between our ally
and Russia. (Hear, hear.) lam now speaking frankly to
this house, and I am speaking words which I think the
noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs will say are
worthy of consideration. An alliance between France and
Russia is threatened—is predicted—from day to day, and
let me tell the house that such an alliance is not for our
benefit. (Hear, hear.) We shall have to cast about us for
frien's, and I think the friend on whom we ought to rely,
and on whom we can rely, is Austria. And let me tell the
hon. gentleman the member for Southwark that the Aus-
trian nation have feelings which lead them to wish for the
good will of this country. Their childien arc brought up
to esteem and love English literature, and let me tell the
house that that is a mighty link between two nations.
(Hear, hear.) You cannot go into a house in Austria in
which, if there be means to accomplish it, there is not a
teacher of the English language. The literature of Eng-
land is a literature which they all admire, which they
all love ; and let me tell the house that from that litera-
ture, which has been read throughout Austria, the
desire for freedom and self-government has arisen through-
out that country. (Hear, hear.) This has not been
done in an hour, or a day, nor in the life of a man, but
gradually the Austrians have acquired English desires,
and our public men ought to look to Austria as a friend
in time of aggression. They would find in her a willing
protector; for a protector we may need against the agres-
s:on of Russia or France. But, returning to Italy, do not
the Italians want some counterpoise ? The member for
Southwark talks about Charles V 111. Did he not go from
the Alps to Rhegium ? What is to prevent Napoleon 111.
from doing the same thing? Will any man tell me that
40,000 Frenchmen might not march from one end of Italy
to the other ? Does any man believe, I ask, that the fili-
bustering—to use an American term—army of Garibaldi
would have been successful in. Italy if they had had some
regiments of French soldiers to oppose them ? (Hear.)
I admit that great things have been done by Garibaldi;
but he does not owe his success, as the hon. member for
Dundalk asserts, to Victor Emmanuel, or Count Cavour, or
the noble lord opposite. It was not these who did it, it was
the bad rule of Italy. (Hear, hear.) When Garibaldi
landed on the territory of Naples, with a fewhundred men,
he found a large army before him. If that army had been
faithful and brave could Garibaldi have succeeded ? No ;
but there was in the Neapolitan people a feeling of hatred
and detestation of their monarch, and a determination, on the
first chance offered them, to throw off his odious rule. (Hear,
hear.) Garibaldi succeeded because the rulers of Italy were
unfit to govern—(hear)---that is the secret of his success.
Had he on his lauding been opposed by Austrian troops he
would not have succeeded ; and if he attempts to attack
Venice, with only the same means with which he attacked
Messina, I prophecy that he will be hanged in a week.
What I state is perhaps unwelcome; but the truth is often
unwelcome. And if what I have said to night is in time
to have any effect, I believe that effect will be wholly in
favour of England. (Hear, hear.) Her power, her do•
minion of the sea, her influence over men's mind and intel-
lect are her greatness and her glory. To maintain this
position is now in the hands of the two noble lords oppo-
site. They are the rulers of the destinies of this great coun-
try. On their heads will rest the responsibility for what
they do. If they make Italy merely the vassal of France
they will have done no good for England or for the world.
But if Italy is made really free, independent, and united—
free from spiritual as well as temporal despotism—they
will have done that for which their names will be hailed by
posterity, and they will deserve and receive the thanks of
the whole world.
Mr. S. A. BEA UMONT defended the policy of the Go-
vernment ; it had acted on the true principle of non-inter-
vention, and he had never heard it stated how it could
have acted otherwise. Its policy had been truly national ;
and at the same time had been to the advantage of Italy.
Mr, MONSELL had never heard a foreign debate in that
house involving great national interests in which so little
reference was made to the great principles of international
law as had been shown by those gentlemen who defended
the policy of the Government. (Hear, hoar.) The hon. and
learned member for Marylebone had endeavoured to make
out that the revolution in the Neapolitan States was pro-
moted by the great majority of the people ; but he main-
tained, on the contrary, that the Sardinian Government eves
most unpopular among the Neapolitan people, and that its
only supporters were to be found among those to whom
places had been given. (Hear, hear.) As to the Abruzzi
no difference of opinion could exist, for then an insurrec-
tion had been vigorously carried on by the peasantry, and
a large i'iedmontese army was required there to keep the
people in order. (Hear, hear.) He did not say this from
any want of sympathy for the Italian people, but because it
was his solemn conviction that the liberties of Italy would
never be accomplished by any attempt to unite people who
differed more from each other than did the French and
English people. (Hear, hear.) He desired to see the Ita-
lians rise from the depths of degradation to which they had
sunk, but that could only be accomplished by allowing each
people, after their own kind, to develope its own civilisation.
(Hear.) 'With the views of the hon. member for Sheffield
he bad no sympathy whatever. There was a strong feeling
on the part of the Italian people against the system of Aus-
triao rule. (Hear.) That system was established by the
arrangement made in 181.5, and was among the chief causes
of the misery of Italy. (Hear.) The present apparent unani-
mity in Italy had risen almost entirely from that cause.
But on the other hand those were mistaken who imagined
that the national feeling of the different Italian States was
not strong. It might sleep for a while, or be crushed, but
it would most certainly rise again. With regard to the
speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Glazlstone), he
would ask what it amounted to, considered in relation to
the foreign policy of the Government. (Hoar, hear.) He
described the trials that had taken place at Modena and
scenes that occurred during the Austrian occupation of
Bologna, but these were matters that had no direct bearing
on the question before them. He remembered well the
doctrine put forth by the late Sir R. Peel in the last speech
he delivered, viz , that we ought to treat the smallest States
with the same consideration that we gave to the most
powerful. (Bear, hear.) His right hon. friend in his
vehatnent denunciations frightened gentlemen an the
benches opposite when he said that those who defended the
King of Naples had more courage than the King of Naples
had. (Hear.) With reference to what had fallen from the
hon. member for Tavistock as to the feeling of the Italian
people regarding the Roman Government, he must say that
his experience differed from that of the hon. gentleman.
At the-end of the year he eves at Rome. It was the custom
of the Pope at that season to go to one of the churches of
[tome about a ride and a half distant. He (Mr. Monsell)
was present on the last occasion, and, though accus-
tomed to Irish enthusiasm when their atiections were
called nirtit in any way, never had he seen such a
dumonst ralb,n of affection as was shown towards the Pope
by all classes of the people who crowded the streets, He