The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-23 00:00:00

BOARD.

Mr. E. P. BOUVERIE asked whether it was proposed
to fill up the office of assistant secretary to the Poor-law
Board. He considered it was quite unnecessary to fill up
the office, and an opportunity was now afforded of making
a step in the right direction, that of retrenchment, though
in a comparatively small matter.
Sir J. comparatively
agreed with the hon. gentleman. •
Mr. VILLIERS said that when he acceded to office he
found the situation in question vacant, and applied to the
Earl of Devon and the hon. member for Wiltshire, as well
as other parties best informed and without any interest, and
they unanimously recommended the continuance of the ap-
pointment.
ROYAL ENGINEERS.

Captain VERNON called the attention of the house to
an order issued from the Horse Guards materially affecting
the organisation of the Corps of Royal Engineers, and to
move for all correspondence respecting the same.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that there was a select commit-
tee on the subject under the presidency of the right hon.
member for Carlisle; and he thought, therefore, that it
would be most inconvenient to enter on the question at pre-
sent.

FOREIGN DESPATCHES.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that after the statement of
the noble lord the Foreign Secretary that he would make an
explanation on Thursday, he would not ask the question of
which he had given notice, namely, whether he would lay
on the table of the house copies of the despatches which have
passed between the noble lord and Lord Cowley and Sir
James Hudson since the announcement of the armistice
between France and Austria.

THE- rStIN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 23, 18b9,

the grantd would ere long reach the enormous amount of
£3,000,000 per annum. They had, tberefere, the highest
authority to lead them to believe that the grants were ra •
pidly increasing, and would soon arrive at a sum which
would demand the most serious consideration of the house
as the trustee of the public purse. (Hear, hear.) These
grants began about the year 1832,with the sum of £20,000.
In 1847 they had crept up to £lOO,OOO ; hi 1866 they were
£451,000 ; and in 1859 they were £.83.6,000,._ being an in-
crease of nVess. than 26 per cent., on the-grunt ofsthee'pre-
vfous year. The ' system of capitation grants began in
1854 by a stroke of the pen in Downing-stteet, and with-
' mit one word of, explanationrer , defence 'tittered in that
hiuse. What was the scale upon which they were
fist introduced? It was this :—that they were to be
applied to the small towns and rural districts • and it
was estimated that they would extend to one-half of the
population of England and Wales. Two years after-
wards, by another stroke of the pen in Downing-
street, and without any discussion in Parliament, those
grants were extended to the other half of England—to all
the richer districts and the large towns, and he could state
from his own knowledge that of two schools in Leeds receiv-
ing a large amount of the capitation grant one cf them be-
I longed to the most wealthy mauufacturerin the whole county
—a man not only of great wealth, but of large liberality.
Another case was that of the most wealthy ,and excellent
school, viz., the school of St. George's Church, to which
belonged one of the most respectable, liberal, and pious con-
gregations possible, and well able to support the school, and
yet because the public money was offered to that school,
that respectable, that liberal and wealthy body received it
without the slightest previous demand having been made
for it. That was one of the most wanton and most unwar-
rantable wastes of public money that had ever come under
his notice. (Hear, hear.) And they were going on in that
way now, and expending the public money to an extent
which threatened to embarrass the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. The same objections arose with regard 4o the
schools in Scotland and Wales, and this year the capitation
grant was to be made in aid oinight schools. If the parties
—most of whom it should be remembered were in the receipt
of wages—attended one night a week, they were to receive
aid from the public money. That was a squandering of the
national funds which was utterly without precedent, and he
did entreat the right hon. gentleman to attend to his state-
ments. Then, again, the committee were allowing public
grants to enter into competition with private efforts. Me-
chanics' institutions were originated for the purpose of con-
veying instruction in the evening to the working classes,
but the committee were, by giving away the public money,
taking away-the subscribers from those institutions. In
Yorkshire they had no less than 138 mechanics' institutions
with 25,000 subscribers, and of these 8,000 or 9,000 were
instructed in the evening, but the system pursued by the
committee would damage those institutions very materially.
(Hear, hear.) • Then as, to the training colleges, the vote
last year was £37,700, but this year it was no less than
£122,000. They were spending £26 for every student who
chose to enter one of these colleges for instruction ; if
that were a necessity he should not begrudge it, but
it was not.. Then, again, the British and Foreign School
Society formerly expended large sums for instructing
teachers—the object for which it was established—but now
the whole amount required was charged upon the public
funds. That was a most unnecessary and profitless waste
of the public money. It should be recollected that the
Government did not educate other classes of society except
schoolmdsters, and he would venture to tell the committee
that it was not a safe, solid, or right thing to distinguish
between that class and other classes. The right hon. gen-
tleman said the proof of a good system was known by its
results, but he did not show that there were results from
the present system which would not have been arrived at
without this system, and results which justified this enor-
mous expenditure. The right hon. gentleman said there
were 821,000 scholars in connection with the system, but
were those new scholars ? There was no proof that there
was one new scholar, and the probability was that there
was not one ; for it appeared from the census report of
Horace Mann that from 1818 to 1833 the number of day
scholars in England increased from 674,000 to 1,276,000, or
at an increase in 15 years of 89 per cent.,:; and during the
whole of that time not one Gd. of public money was granted
in either aid of buildings or instruction in England and
Wales. Then from 1833 to 1851 the increase was from
1,276,000 to 2,144,000, or at the rate of 68 per cent. ; and
though during nearly the whole of that period Parliament
had made no grants in aid of annual expenses, yet in 1847,
and since, grants were made for building schools. Now,
whereas no grants were made in the period, the increase was
89 per cent. ; in the latter it was only at the rate of 68 per
cent. (Hear, hear.) lie had no sectarian feeling in this
matter. (Laughter.) He was sure hon. gentlemen who
laughed did'not understand him. (Hear, hear.) He was
open to approve of all systems of education which did
not infringe on the rights of conscience, nor had he ever
expressed jealousy of the growth of Church of England
schools. The number of day scholars in 1837,was 558,000 ;
in 1837 it had increased to 955,000 ; and in the report just
published the numbers were given for 1857 as 1,187.000.
In the former period of 10 years the increase was 62 per
cent., during a time in which no money was granted ;
and in the latter decade the increase was only 24 per cent.,
notwithstading that millions were granted. (Hear,
hear.) He thought these were most important facts.
He fully believed the increase of day scholars was less since
the system of grants wasbegun than it was before. (Hear.)
It was stated the national system had failed in Ireland; and
it was very singular that no hon. member said that system
bad not failed from one source or another. The Rev. Mr.
Warren had lately published a report on this subject which
was of great importance. The rev. gentleman said children
only remained on the average three years at school. He
differed with the rev. gentleman on that point. The fact
was, the children remained at one school only two or three
years ; but as the poor were always removing the children
were always changing their schools. In 1851 Mr. Horace
Mann said the average of the attendance of every child in
England and Wales was no less than five years. (Hear.)
As every child in the kingdom did not go to school, of
course the average was much higher for those who did.
(Hear.) There were several of the principal Dissenting
bodies which by their own principles were deprived of any
opportunity of receiving any benefits from these grants.
The Independents and the Baptists could receive no assist-
ance from them. He would ask was there not a great hard-
ship on sects who could not so receive grants, in being com-
pelled to pay for such grants to other religious bodies.
(Hear.) With his own views he could not bring himself
. to make persons pay for that which they did not conscien-
L tiously believe in. He would give the Roman Catholics
) everything that he claimed for himself. (Hear.) He trusted
the committee would believe he entertained the views he
expressed, honestly and sincerely, and he thanked the com-
mittee for its kindly hearing. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY said that the system of national edu-
cation had invariablyturned out throughout the whole king-
dom to be denominational, and according to his experience
it was the only system which could be effectually carried
out. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman who had just
spoken complained of the enormous expense of that sistern,
and they would all sympathise with him to that extent, and
agree that the gradual increase of the vote deserved imme-
diate consideration ; but, when he said the voluntary sys-
tem was sufficient for national education, he must be per-
fectly bblivious as to the state of education before the pre-
sent system was established. (Hear, hear.) As to whether
the present system would be a permanent one, or whether
it was merely an experiment, he answered that would de-
pend upon the policy of the Administration which con-
ducted it. If their policy was sound, and they propeily
controlled the expenditure, he thought it would be perma-
nent ; but if they adopted an unsound policy, and spent:the
money carelessly, the system would come to an end.
Mr. COWPER said it was a mistake to suppose this vote
would be regulated by mere administration. No doubt the
expenditure would bo open to the Government so long as
the minutes remained as they now were, and they must
make up their minds to the increase while the minutes re-
mained what they were. Though the vote was a large one
there was no doubt that the committee would grant the
money, provided the results were commensurate with the
expenditure. As to the capitation grant, no doubt some of
the schools did not require it; but on the whole it
would manifestly be a great hardship upon many schools to
withdraw the grant. He could not agree that the pro-
posed night schools would interfere with the schools of the
same class already existing. He even thought the Govern-
ment might go further, and assist the schools connected
with mechanics' institutes. These mechanic.' institutes were
rapidlyebeceminge'most ithiperfaist AtirTE'ff ingkietion.
They do not extend merely to reading "and writing, but
they embrace natural history, science, and many other
branches of.knowledge which were calculated to communi-
cate a good moral tone to the people. It was well known
that botany and horticulture were much cultivated to Lan-
cashire, and these schools would tend greatly to promote
Lthose studies. Until we were prepared to make a great or-
genic change, he thought they must make up their minds
to advance this large sum for the sake of the moral im-
provement and education of the people. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said, in answer to the appeal
which had been made to him, that he could not say he was
prepared to modify the opinions he had before expressed on
this subject. But although he was not prepared to enter
into the subject at length, he could not refrain from express-
ing his extreme admiration at the speech of the right hon.
member for Leeds (Mr. Bainee)—(hear)—and the Pleasure
he O feft'athearirig the right hon. member state so clearly the
' vs wh ich_he was known to entertain of ' this subject.. He
(Sir J: Paitingten) was afraid that the right hon. gentle-
man's aspect of this question was taken from a very different
point of view than his own, but he could not but admire the
zeal which the right hon. member had so long displayed.
To a certain extent he and the hon. gentleman both
viewed with distrust the immense amount to which the voee
had risen ; but the hon. member did so because he altoge-
ther disapproved of State assistance for the purpose of edu-
cation, while his own objection was based on a serious doubt
that they were giving that assistance in the wisest and
most economical mode. (Hear, hear.) On several past oc-
casions he had warned the house with regard to the rapid
growth of this vote ; and he had no doubt if the present
system were persevered in, the amount would, as already
stated, speedily reach the sum of from £2,500,000 to
£3,000,000. The bad effects of a eintralised system were as
much as' possible obviated in practice, but there was no
doubt that by the mode in which the grant was being ad-
ministered, it was acquiring some of the evils alluded to.
He had no objection to the expenditure of any requisite
amount for the accomplishment of the object proposed; but
he did not believe it possible for any central boa rd in Lon-
don to dispense the funds so as to acquire the greatest pos-
sible amount of advantage. He would not, however, vote
against the present system until he saw a prospect of a bet-
ter one being established in its stead. (Hear, hear.) He
wished to ask the President of the Board of Tr ade, in the
first place, whether the Duke of Newcastle still, continued
to act as the president of the committee appointed last
year, and whether in the event of other and more
onerous occupations rendering it necessary that he should
relinquish that post, the right honourable gentleman was
prepared to state whom the Government would ap-
point as the successor of that noble lord. He also wished
to know at what period there was a prospect of
their receiving the report of the committee. Be: agreed in
thinking that neither the mind of the house nor that of the
public could be prepared for any great changes before that
report was made public and was fully cemsid ared.
-' Mr. LIDDELL said although the grant was unquestion-
tionably a large one, he considered that it had been far
from 'profitless in its results. The great difficulty which
was to be encountered lay in the unwillingness of parents
in humble life to allow their children to avail themselves of
the advantages of education ; but from the pain sand expen-
diture which4had been bestowed on the rising generation,
he believed that similar difficulties would riot be. experienced
with the future raco of parents in those c'iassess. (Hear.)
Mr. WALTER said that the report 3 of the inspectors
spry inadequately represent the extent ( .if education in the
dountry, _for Osey in no way related to these schools under
the voluntary system.

Mr. HENTLF.IY had no inteartioAo': par. in the dis-
mission were it'not for some obser-va4;ions 'which. had fallen
from the 'right hen. gentlernan- the Vie-Yresidcnt of the
Committee of Council. He quite ac-reed .that there wore
some defects in the present system, butb unti 1 they obtained
a better system they had better go on witl 1 the one they
had. The right lion, gentleman said that 3,e of the great