The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-15 00:00:00

LONDON,

the introduction of the bill, and also on its second

reading.
Mr. AYRTON supported the motion. He com-
plained of the second reading of the bill corning on so
late on a former night as to preclude discussion, and he
claimed the right of considering and commenting on the
principle and details of the bill at any stage. He re-
ferred to the house going into committee on the bill,
and passing the first and most important clause on a
former night, at a time when hon. members ought to
have been in their beds. The bon. and learned member
contended that the eontinuance of the present system
was essential for the maintenance of the rights
and liberties of the people, especially in politi-
cal cases. The people ought not to be at the
absolute discretion of the stipendiary magis-
trates and the police, who might readily be made
tools of oppression. He complained of the reckless and
insulting nature of this bill towards the inhabitants of
the metropolis, and he quoted, in illustration, the clause
giving power to the Attorney-General to indict a person
for an indictable offence on information filed under the
act without previous inquiry or an oath or affelavit, and
to keep a man in prison at his pleasure by depriving
him of the right of applying for a writ of habeas corpus.
It was dangerous to trifle, with 21 millions of people in
this manner, and he called cn the house to peremptorily
reface its assent to the measure. He called on the house
to amend the defects of the present system, and not de-

stray it.
Mr. M`MAIION said that the bill was based upon the
supposition that there were stipendiary ina.gistrates—
men of legal attainments—within the Central Criminal
Court district, whose duty it was to investigate criminal
cases, and who.might safely be lelt to discharge the func-
tions of grand jurors, but hon. members appeared to
forget that in the City of London there were no stipen-
diary magistrates, but men connected with business who
discharged magisterial functions ; and he asked wby the
aldermen of London should possess greater magiste•
rial powers than the county gentlemen outside the
Central Criminal Court district. He condemned the
priumple of the bill, as dangerous to public liberty,
and said that the present system in England was
as near to perfection as it could well he, and
he called on the house to preserve it. Ile sug-
gested that the bill should be postponed till next session.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS supported the continuance of
the grand jury system. He considered that a bill of this
kind should be brought in under the responsibility of
Government, and not that of a private member. lie
should oppose the bill.
Mr. coßßErr opposed the bill from its mischievous
tendency. Toe objections to tne grand jury system in
the metropolitan district applied with greater force to
the country districts, and he looked upon this bill as in•
tr Aucing the thin end of the wedge to destroy an institu-
tion that had been found to protect the rights and liber-
ties of the people. He objected to the power proposed
by the bill to be given to -tipendiary magistrates, whom
Mr. Arnold bad described in a pamphlet as a "depend-
ent body," in connection with the Home Secretary.
The hon. gentleman defended the present grand jury
system, and said that be cordially agreed with Mr. Jus-
tice Willes's recent remarks, from the bench, in favour
of its continuance.
Mr. M. T. BAINES said that be thought the bill a
very good one in principle, and many of the objections
raised against it might be remedied by the committee.
He did not behove it would have the effect of subvert-
ing! the grand jury system throughout the country. He
hoped the consideration of the clauses would be allowed
to be proceeded with.
Mr. J. LOCKE (Soutlexark), opposed the bill.
Mr. BRISCOE considered the arguments against the
bill irresistible.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said that the object
of the bill was to provide that where a case had under-
gone the most perfect preliminary investigation, there
should be no further delay by referring it to a grand
jury, and he thought that that principle would be pro-
ductive of great advantage.
Mr. HENLEY disliked the measu-e, and he had
heard nothing to disabuse his mind that if it were
adopted for the metropolitan district it would not be ex-
tended to the whole of the country. He was unwilling
to see the grand jury system abolished.
The committee then divided. The numbers were—
For the motion BO
Against it
Majority
On the motion that clause 1 stand part of the bill,
Mr. M'MAHON said that by the clause as it stood
no grand jury could hereafter be assembled in the Cen-
tral Criminal Court.
A lengthened discussion ensued, which lasted till 10
minutes to 4 o'clock, when, by the forms of the house,
the Chairman reported progress.
APPREHENSION OF TREDRE—LAMBETH
ELECTION.

The SERGEANT-AT-ARMS reported that Tredre, a wit
fleas in the Lambeth el.ction case, was in his custody.
On the motion of Mr. INGELIM, the Sergeant-at.
Arms was ordered to take Tredre tJ and from the com•
rnittee as often as the committee required his attend,
ance.
The bonne then suspended its sittings.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
MAYO ELECTION PETITION.

Mr. SC HOLEFIELD reported from the select com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the petition complain-
ing of the return of Mr. Moore, that G. IL Moore, E.q.,
w_►s not du!), elected to serve as a knight of the shire for
the present Parliament ; that the said election, as far as
regarded the said G. H. Moore, was a void election. The
ceromittee also agreed to a resolution to the effect that
G. H. Moore was, by his agents, guilty of undue influ-
ence ; that undue influence and spiritnal intimidation
prevailed to a great extent, that the Rev. P. Conway
and Luke Ryan made th,:naseives al prominent and ac-
tive in this respect that the committee felt it to be their
du y to report their conduct to the house, leaving it to
the house to take such steps as it might deem necessary ;
that it did not appear to the committee that Mr. Moore
sanctioned or was cognisant of such undue influence or
spiritual intimidation.
Mr. SC EIO LEF. lELD moved that the evidence be laid
on the table of the house, which was agreed to.
BURN ST. EDMUND'S ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. HARDY brought up the report of the commit-
tee, which stated that J. A. Hardcastle, Esq., was duly
elected to serve as a burgess in the present Parliament.
The committee came to a resolution to the effect that
one voter, J. W. Clark, paid one the sum of 151. f,o-
voting ; that a voter was detained in a drunken state,
and that he was taken out in a drunken state to vote,
but that it was not shown by whom the expenses were
paid ; that the said J. W. Clark was not produced to
rebut the evidence respecting him ; that the committee
were not satisfied that be had no such authority as would
jnitify them in declaring the seat to be vacant.
PA RLIA.MEN rAity OATHS.

Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that on Friday nex t
he would move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the
act of the Ist and 2d of Vic. c. 105, entitled, "An act
to remove doubts as to the validity of certain oathp.
ORDNANCE SURVEY.

On the motion of Sir D. NORREYS, the following re-
turn was ordered :—A detailed report of the state of the
survey on the 12th day of June, 1857, showing-1. The
names of the parishes, either in England or Scotland, of
which the maps were completed on the 25-inch scalp,
and were then ready for reduction, or publication, by
engraving, or any other copying process. The names of
parishes the mans- of which were so far advanced that the
primary and secondary triangulation had been laid down,
and the filling-in of detail was in progress, on the day
named. (If the maps of portions only of parishes were
completed, or were in the state referred to in No. 1, the
number of sheets so completed, or so far in progress, is
to be stated.)
EUROPEAN AND AUSTRALIAN MAIL
COMPANY.

Mr, CONINGHAM wished to ask the Secretary to
the Treasury what was the number of steam-vessels
which the Post-office agreed with the European and
Australian Mail Company should be placed on the line
from Australia to Suez S Was proper security taken by
the Post-office before the line was opened that the pro-
per number of vessels were placed on the station Did
the number of vessels agreed upon provide against a
contingency or loss, or break down, of one or more of
the vessels?
Mr. WILSON said the contract provided that the
company were to have six vessels engaged in the service.
He believed they bad the full number engaged. But the
Oneida was lost, and the full penalty was enforced for the
non-performance of that particular voyage. With regard
to the other voyages, the service was performed in a
manner satisfactory to the Post-office ; and when the
Oneida broke down another vessel was put in her place,
INDIAN AFFAIRS.

Mr. DISR&ELI—I wish to put a question to her Ma-
jesty's Government on the present state of affairs is In-
dia, as to whether an opportunity will be given, and
which will be the most convenient opportunity for her
Majesty's Government, to the house to express some
opinion on this, the most considerable event that has
taken place in India for many years. It is now
nearly a fortnight since I addressed an iiquiry to the
Government, when the first news of the occurrence
of these events arrived, and that in the absence of the
noble lord. The main object of my inquiring was first
of all to know what measures had been taken by ti e
Government under the disastrous circumstances which
had occurred, and my second object was to ascertain
generally from the Government cvnat they believed to
be the cause of these events. That was a fortnight ago.
The house was then told that the Governor-General of
India wrote home in high spirits, and certainly the house
was allowed to infer that the state of affairs was not of
so serious a character as, I believe, it would be the
greatest want of prudence on our part now to doubt.
We now have had news of the greatest importance com-
municated to us through the electric telegraph, and what
I
now wish to know is whether the despatches received
by the Government would enable them to give any de •
tails or any authoritative information to the house as to
the present position of affairs in India. (Hear' hear.) I
I. should also like to know from the noLla lord wh, the,
he will assist us in giving the earliest opportunity of
expressing the views of the house on the causes and pro
bable consequences of the present state of affairs in India ;
Some observations were made the other evening on the
subject of the Indian budget with a view to its being
brought for ward without lose of time. If her Majesty's
Government brought forward that budget it would be a
legitimate opportunity for the house dispassionately to
discuss the affairs of India." Of course it was open to
him or any other member of the house, on the motion for
going into committee of supply, to call the attention of

the house to the state of affAi. a in India. .but there
were other important motions connected with the Per-
siao and Chinese wars, to be discussed, and it would be I

highly inconvenient if these were di-cussed in connexion
with the present question. What I should Ike to know,

therefare, from the noble lord is whether he will favour
the house with what be believes to be the most author.-
tative information respecting the present position of In-
dian affairs ; and secondly, I shall be glad to hear from
him what ste-cs Government are prepared to adopt ander
the circumstaeces ; and lastly, I should like to hear
from him whether he will permit the Indian budget to

be brought forward on Friday, so as to give the House
of Commons an oppor,"unity of expressing an opinion on
the present serious posit;on of affairs in India ?

Lord PALMERSTON--Her Majesty's Government
have received despatches of which the substance has been
communicated by the electric telegraph from Marseilles.
[ believe there are other despatches coining by South

ampton which may or may not contain further informa-
tion as to these events, which was given in the despatch
communicated by telegraph ; antl, speaking generally, I
should say that the information which the Government
ii in possession of does not vary from that which is pub-
lished from private sources in the ordinary channels of

nformation. Her Majesty's Government will, without

any unnecessary delay, lay on the table of the house such
portions of the correspondence as they think will be suffi
cient to give the house the fullest information on the
subject of these events. With regard to the question of
the right hon. gentleman in respect to the opportunity of

discussing this very important matter, of course it is
very natural that there should be a desire on the part of
members of expressing their opinions ; but, I submit, it
would be better they should first see the papers. These
papers may be considered full, or not full enough, of in-
formation ; but it would not be in accordance with the
practice of Parliament to originate a discussion winding
the production of papers which will be laid on the table
to-morrow--(as was understood.) With regard to a dis-

cussion on Friday, I think the right hon. gentleman—at
least, I think, the hon. members—will find that they
will not have the papers long enough in their hands to
enable them to have a discussion on Friday. ([Tear )
But her Majesty's Government have no wish to put off
the discussion longer than the time necessary fof giving
full information on the subject. Ttmat shall be done with-
out loss of time, and then it will be for the right hon.
gentleman to choose his own time for bringing the sub-
ject before the house.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to know how far back the
papers to be presented by the noble lord would go? The
house ought to be in possession of any despatch which
would give information as to the accounts which her
Majesty's Government received as to the state of affairs
in India before the present events took place, and as to
the causes, that led to the Persian and Chinese wars.
These were important papers, without which the house
could not form an opinion, and he did not wish to preci•
pitate a discussion without these documents. If, there-
fore, he delayed bringing the question before the house,
it was because he understood from the Government that
the house should be put in possession of papers so far
back as that they should know what led to the wars with
Persia and China.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government would
present the papers which they thought best calculated to
put the house in possession of the facts, and if the right
hon. gentleman thought them insufficient, it would be
competent to bring the whole su ject before the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL—There is one point on which I
think the house feel more anxious than as to any discus•
siren. My noble friend stated last night what the Govern-
ment were about to do in cocsequence of the intelligence
they received from India. That statement was general,
and I do not wonder at it because it was founded on a
te:egraphic message. But now that the Government are
in receipt of the despatch, I confess I am anxious to hear
from my noble friend a more satisfactory and a fuller
statement of the measures taken by the Government. I
hope to hear from may noble friend that the reinforcements
sent ont will be sufficient, and that he will make a full
statement of what the Government mean to do under
the circumstances.
Lord PALMERSTON—The best answer I can give
to my noble friend is this, that her Majesty's Govern-
moment had, before the receipt of the despatches which ar-
rived yesterday, made arrangements for sending large re-
inforcements to India, and that those reinforcements are
rather greater than what Lord Canning asks for. (Hear.)
Of course the house will not expect me to enter into
details of the regiments at the stations. But speaking
generally, I should say that, though her Majesty's Go-
vernment feel no apprehension or alarm as to the ulti-
mate result of these unfortunate events, yet they think
it to be their duty to act as if there were reason for ap-
prehension, and to leave nothing undone which is within
the reach of administrative functions, in order to provide
for the emergency which has occurred in India.
Sir J. WALSH said that a report prevailed that for
some time past Gen. Anson bad written home, making
strong representations as to the existence of disaffection
in the Bengal army. He therefore wished to know whe-
ther the papers to be laid before Parliament! would con
tain lull extracts from the correspondence of Gan. Ansel).
Mr. MANGLES said he would answer that question
for the noble lori. He had heard the rumour to which
the hon. baronet referred, and in reply to it said he had
never seen a single line ia the shape of an official warning
from Gen. Anson. He made more special inquiry on the
subject to-day at the India House, and he could only say
that they bad not received a single word of notice from
Gen. Anson on the subject of these late occurrences.
Mr. CHEETHAM. asked when the noble lord would
give a day for the renewal of the debate on the growth
of cotton in India!
ttLord PALMERSTON said he was aware of the im-
p c rtance of that subject to the manufacturing interest,
bat be doubted whether in the present state of Indian
affairs that debate could be confined to cotton. He
should be willing to give him the morning of Tuesday
next, but he thought it would be better to postpone the
subject till after the debate which the right hon. gentle
man opposite proposed to introduce.
Sir DEL. EVANS said that the House of Commons
had a duty to perform as well as the Government, and
he thought the noble lord sleculd say something more de-
fiemtm re -pectin the day for discussing this subject.
In reply to Lord J. MANNERS,
Mr. V. SMITH said that General Anson did not cora-
rnunisata with the Government, but with the Court of
Directors. If General Anson felt it his duty to make
any representation toe to the state of the army in India,
his course would be, as the military member of the
council, to put a minute of his opinion on record, which
would be transmitted to the Court of Directors. He
(Mr. V. Smith) was not aware of any communication
from General Anson which stated that there was any
such disaffection in the Bengal army as had been
alluded to.
Sir J. WALSH said there was some misapprehension
as to the answer already given by the President of the
Board of Control. He begged to ask again whether any
department bad received a communication from General
Anson calling the attention of the Government to the
disaffection in the Bengal army?
Mr. V. SMITH repeated that no such communication
had been received.
Capt, DUNCOMBE asked if there had been any
despatch to that effect from Sir W. Gomm I
Mr. V. SMITH believed not, but he was not at the
Board of Control when that officer was Commander-in-
Cisief.

Sir C. WOOD could state that no such communica-
tion had been received while he was President of the

Board.