The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-20 00:00:00

—in part impaired from causes upon which I need not
dwell—conducive to those objects which were considered
beneficial, but which he considers detrimental to the inte-
rests of mankind. The charge which the hon. member
brought against the two noble lords for having pursued
a party policy with regard to Italy, is one which is un-
founded, and even refutes itself. But in other parts of his
speech the hon. gentleman himself betrayed his conscious-
ness that it was not a party, but a national policy, which
had been challenged by no party in this house, but a
policy which represented the general and cordial senti-
ments of the people of this country. (Cheers.) The ad-
miration with which I have listened to the speech of the
hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) was somewhat
qualified by the tone of that speech, and the somewhat
narrow grounds on which he based his advocacy of the
Italian cause. The hon. member wished to speak on behalf
of what he called Young Italy, My hope for one is that
Young Italy has grown a little older. I confess I think
Italy has hitherto shown herself too young for the manage-
ment of public affairs. The points of the policy of Young
Italy were the events of the year 1848 and 1849. I think
that the agency of an older and a wiser Italy is now mani •
fest in the better, sounder, and more beneficial direction
which has been given to the course of affairs of that country
during the last few years. I confess I can find no evidence
in support of the statement of my hon. friend with regard to
the prevalence of popular dissatisfaction in Italy. No such
evidence certainly is to be found in the official papers. It is
clear, however, that the 600 men to whom my hon. friend
referred were soldiers who had been imr rudently disbanded
under what, I fear, was the influence of Young Italy.
Some 10,000 or 12,000 men have been sent back to their
homes—if homes they k ad—after their former habits of life
had been broken up by military service, and naturally
amongst them were to be found a mixed aasemblaga of bri-
gands and political partizans, who constitute a terrible source
of public disorder, but furnish no proof of any popular dis-
affection. Then my hon. friend says the Italians must not
rest from making daily efforts to proceed on the road to
Rome and Venice. But do we really advance the cause of
public liberty when we add to the difficulty of its rulers,
and sitting at ease within those walls, dictate to them the
rate and pace at which the Italians are to proceed. With
respect to the explanation which I offered to the house last
evening, and did not complete, what I wished to state was,
in the case of the administration of the lawin Modena, I had
reason to believe that the youth Giardini was not executed. I
also wished further to state that punishments were inflicted
upon the inhabitants of Modena by the operation of an ex
post facto law, directed against offences committed by youths
under 21 years of age. This I am about to prove from
documents, as to which the evidence is perhaps not quite
conclusive. But in the year 1859-60, very shortly after the
expulsion of the Grand Duke, there was published at Mo-
dena a work, the statements of which have, as far as I know,
never been contradicted, whilst, if they are false or forged,
the fraud can readily be exposed. In everything I only
spoke upon the authority of documents which were open
to the world, and if in any particular instance I misunder-
stood them I am sorry the correction was not given earlier.
Upon the point in question, it is true that capital punish-
ment was made applicable by an ex post facto decree to
youths of tender years charged with homicide.
Sir G. BOWYER—Of what age ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I will
tell you presently. (Hear.) In September, 1857, the Duke
of Modena aprointed a military commission in his capital
to try offences by military law. The action of that commis-
sion was not confined to offences committed after the date
of its establishment, but it was authorised to deal with
offences which had been committed for a very considerable
period—l think two years, or more, but at all events a con-
siderable period—before it was thus established. Those
offences were in the first instance put under the action of
military law—and it was stated, I should say, that persons
capitally condemned should be executed within four-and-
twenty hours. (Hear, hear.) On the 7th of October, in
the same year, the military commandant, whose name did
not much resemble an Italian but sounded more like an
Austrian one, was authorised to apply capital punishment
to cases that would have been t-übjected to the action of the
ordinary tribunals, and embracing cases committed long
before by youths under 15 years of age. (Cheers.) A
law resembling our rule of king's evidence, which was not
previously the law of the country, was also introduced—
and it was provided by the same edict that soldiers
(under the military command of the judges) should be
specially qualified to appear as witnesses. (Hear, hear.)
I am very much obliged to the house for the manner in
which it has listened to this explanation. (Cheers.)
I sincerely wish it had been in my power
to make a general retractation and abandonment of these
charges, but there is no possibility of any inference of that
kind. This book has been published, and has been open for
inspection, part of it for a year and part of it for more than
two years, but, so far as I am aware, no denial cif its authen-
ticity has ever been given. (Cheers.)

Mr. LAYARD said it was his conviction that Count
Cavour had never intended to deceive England. (Oh.)
Hon. members might laugh, but he believed that the noblest
trait in Count Cavour's character was his love of truth. He
had seen his earliest letters, and nothing had struck him
more in those letters and in Count Cavour's subsequent
career than his love of truth. (Hear, hear.) Take the case
of Savoy and Nice. There was no doubt that when he met
the Emperor at Plombieres a discussion took place as to the
cession of Nice and Savoy; for he (Mr. Layard) had seen
it in his own handwriting. What he (Count Cavour) said
was, that the Emperor, after he had discussed the probable
campaign in Italy, stated to him that if Lombardy and
Venetia went to Piedmont he should, as an Emperor of the
French, not as Louis Napoleon, but as a French sovereign
carrying out a natural policy which had existed for a long
period, insist on the surrender to France of Savoy and Nice.
Count Cavour gave no written engagement or verbal pro-
mise ; but ho stated that when all that was accomplished,
the Emperor might appeal to the people of Savoy and Nice,
and if the population expressed a wish to be united to France,
the matter should be considered by the King of Sardinia.
That agreement, such as it was, had never been denied by
Count Cavour. It was known to many persons, and it was
told to him (Mr. Layard). After the peace of Villafranca
was concluded, without any cession of territory, the Em-
peror resigned his claim to Savoy and Nice; and that re-
signation was stated in so many words, not only to Count
Cavour, but to other persons who had told it to him (Mr.
Layard) as having heard it from his own mouth. After
those events, however, which united the Duchies, the
Legations, and the Grand Duchy to Piedmont, the Em-
peror revived his claim. The honourable member (Mr.
Kinglake) said that Sir James Hudson stated on the 10th
of February that Count Cavour said there was no intention
on the part of the King of Piedmont to cede the territory
of Savoy and Nice, and he (Mr. Layard) was satisfied that
the count had then no intention whatever to mislead. Until
the middle of February the Emperor himself did not intend
to demand the cession of those provinces. Count Cavour
still resisted, and until about the 23d of February he refused
to listen to the Emperor's demand, and Count Benedetti
then went to Turin to put a pressura upon Count Cavour,
and threatened that if the cession was nct made by March,
in time to announce it at the opening of the Legislative
Chambers, the Emperor would march his troops into Tus-
cany. About the 25th of February Count Cavour ceded,
but with the greatest possible pain and reluctance. He had
to choose between the sacrifice of a great scheme and the
loss of the two provinces. He believed Count Cavour Was
justified in what he did, for he yielded to dire necessity.
The punishment of the Emperor of the French for the
course he had pursued had already fallen upon him—he had
forfeited his word and honour. Count Cavour had gone to
his grave, but a more honourable, honest, and truthful man
had never lived.

Mr. P. HENNESSY denied the accuracy of the right
hon. gentleman's denunciations of the Duke of Modena,
and quoted several extracts from the blue-books for the
purpose of showing the disaffected state of the South of
Italy, and the little reliance to be place on the right hon.
gentleman's statements.

After a few words from Mr. KINNAIRD, the motion was
negatived.

MERCHANT SHIPPING.

Mr. LINDSAY asked the President of the Board of
Trade to state what were the intentions of the Government
with regard to the Merchant Shipping Bill ?
Mr. LIDDELL said he knew that considerable disap-
pointment existed among the shipping interest that this
great subject had not been dealt with in the present session,
and he suggested that it would be convenient that a bill
should be brought in that it might be discussed during the
recess.

Mr. GIBSON said it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to have given effect to the remaining recommenda-
tions of the committee, and for this purpose two bills were
brought in, one for the abolition of passing tolls and for the
termination of certain dues that were levied on shipping,
and the other was for the amendment of the pilotage laws,
and on questions relating to the liability of shipowners, and
so forth. Having but a limited portion of the time of the
house at his command he thought it better to proceed with
but one of the's° bills before he attempted to proceed with
the other ; but the other bill was prepared. Now it was
obvious, from the various important subjects with which
the house had to deal, that a matter of this kind could only
occupy a certain portion of time, and with every desire to
pass the measure he really had not found himself able.
With regard to laying a bill on the table of the house, with-
out• intending to proceed with it, ho had great doubts
whether such a course was advantageous to the public in-
terest. The house would be impatient of the explanations
of a measure which they were not to proceed with, and he
thought it was not fair to any measure to throw it on the
table of the house without those explanations which Were
calculated to meet objections. On that ground, and also
because it was a complicated measure, and that during the
recess more consideration might g,. be given to it, he thought
it better not to introduce a measure this session, bat h
•
wished N
to A
aALLEN.
NsTk a question of the
hoped it might be possible to introduce it early next session.
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Judge-Advocate with referonee to the
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The SPEAKER then left a future time.
into committee of supply, the chair, and the house went
but the Ch •reported r -
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vim being taken.