The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-11 00:00:00

BILL.

The report of amendments on this bill was brought up
and received.

AFFAIRS OF SYRIA.

Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE rose, pursuant
to notice, to move-1. That this house weuld view with
deep regret any circumstance leading to a continuance,
however brief, of the occupation of Syria by foreign troops
beyond the sth of June next ensuing, the period now fixed
for their complete withdrawal by the convention agreed to
at Paris on the 15th of March ; 2. That the house considers
the late calamitous events in Syria as not to he attributed
to causes exclusively local, but also and chiefly to the gene-
ral state of the Turkish empire, more especially in point of
revenue and administration; 3. That the house is deeply
impressed with the urgency of obtaining from the Ottoman
Porte a prompt adoption and strict enforcement of such
measures as may best afford in the spirit of the Sultan's
hatti-humayoun of 1856 a reliable security against the re-
currence from any cause whatever of these sanguinary con-
flicts. The noble lord said the subject which he was about
to bring under the notice of their lordships was so little re-
commended by any simplicity in its character that he should
have shrunk from trespassing on the indulgence of the
house if he had not borne in mind the importance of the
national interests at stake. The resolutions which he pro-
posed were, he thought, of a character not calculated to
raise any difference of opinion, and still less to cause any
division among their lordships as to their adoption. He
thought that it would be advantageous, concurrently
with the discussion which had taken place in the other
house of Parliament, that the subject should also be dis-
cussed in that house, in order that the Government might
have the full advantage of being supported in their policy
by the approval of both houses; and he could see no cause
for apprehension abroad arising out of such a discussion,
while, as far as this country was concerned, such discussion
must be beneficial, by diffusing a knowledge of the interests
involved and the principles by which the policy of Parlias
meat and the Government were guided. It could not be
said either that the discussion was premature. It wasnow
six weeks since the correspondence on the subject had been
laid en the table by the Foreign Office. It was not his in-
tention to refer to that correspondence in detail, bat he
might say that it was impossible to read it without seeing
that the policy of this country had been ably sustained,
that those entrusted with the duty of carrying it out had
ably and faithfully performed their duties, and that this
was the case especially with the commissioner appointed to
act jointly with the representatives of France and Turkey,
who, though comparatively inexperienced in diplomacy, had
not only ably promoted the great interests of humanity, but
also the character and the policy of this country, in a way
which reflected the highest honour upon himself. (Hear.)
The question itself was one of great complexity, and
which presented circumstances of great difficulty and deli-
cacy to deal with. The occupation of Syria by foreign
troops involved piestions of the gravest importance. At
the time that France offered to send troops to Syria he
felt, with the Government, that the time for their remain-
ing there should be limited to the shortest possible period.
Since then it had been found by the Government that it
was advisable that the period shcaild be still further ex-
tended. It would be a matter for deep regret, if it should,
from any cause, be still further extended. lle could not
doubt that the French Government was sincerely desirous
of carrying out the last convention, and had no pecuniary
interest in prolonging the occupation; but still• it was
possible to conceive that circumstances might arise to in-
duce them to desire a further extension of the period,
and it was desirable that our Government should be
supported by Parliament in its determination to insist
upon the striet fulfilment of the last arrangement. It
really did not appear that the continuance of the French
troops was necessary for the restoration or maintenance
of tranquillity in. Syria. Their presence had been con-
fined to a small portion of the country, and it had had
the effect of exalting the Christian tribes. He would put
it to the house if any army of a foreign Power should be
placed in this position? It was right, therefore, for this
House to aid the Government in carrying out the arrange-
ments made, and also in taking such steps in connection
therewith as would G.m,.11r0 the tranquillity of the Turkish
Empire, which, by treaty, we had undertaken to gua.
rantee. It was no slight task we had thus undertaken,
but it was one which policy and good faith alike for-
bade us shrinking from. Long before such treaty obliga-
tions became binding upon us this country had taken a
deep interest in Turkish affairs. 'Within the last century
we had six or seven times sent an army to aid in main-
taining the integrity of the Turkish Empire. This could
not, therefore, be considered a light question, and at a
time when, not only Europe—the whole of Europe—but
America, was in so uneasy a condition, it was more than
ever our duty to guard against any possible circumstances
that tend to weaken that empire, or to lead to disputes in
connection with its affairs. It was'of importance that they
should take a right view of the
thesecau sesof the disturbances
of
in Syria. No doubt manycausestionwetore
that,local in
their nature and operation ; but in addition
might be truly said that the more influential and activelyit
moving causes were of a general character. The corruption
which unhappily
pervaded the administration was one
great
cause. The army, which was on paper 150,000 strong, did
not in reality number more than 50,000 or 60,000 ; and
another cause was the embarrassed state of the finances.
What the Turkish Empire required was an army adequate
to the defence of the country and the maintenance of its
internal tranquillity. Unless some remedy be applied to
these things it would be impossible for this country to do
j'atiet to the engagements into which Government had en-
tered. They should endeavour to induce Turkey to exert
her ow„ energies and to carry out those reforms which the
Government
of Turkey had admitted to be necessary.
There
issuwe"fro am_ faulty in bringing the Syrian question to
an
eftiues with which the Porte had to deal. He
thought it was a subject e otof
kreegre. t that more persevering
efforts had not been in
hthi e Turksth steady, in the
progress of reform. It seenaedetpo. not a
fanciful or speculative subject, and in
one which could -abs St-
POlvarl. It was a question Which
must be. dealt. with, o or
events might result which would come
this country
with surprise, as sz ithin the last six months
t oanthtieor. events
had occurred of which no man had the leaala
Minis era
Parliament to enable them to
It might happen at no distant period tkat
be compelled to call upon
carry out the engagements of this country towards Tso,ke„.
Nothing was more necessary than that these eneageine:ta
should be maintained which were c.-ser Cal to the raaint,.
nance of the balance of power in Europe. lie trusted
their lordships would consider the resolutions in the spirit
in which they had been framed. He should be sorry it
their discussion should throw any obstacle or difficulty in
the way, as ho bad frankly stated the motives which had
induced him to bring the resolution forward. He had
touched upon most of the points which ho thought bore
upon the subject. lie had overcome his reluctance to
address their lordships from a strict sense of duty arising
from the experience and the knowledge he possessed
of
Turkish affairs. The noble lord concluded by moving his
resolutions.

Lord WODE HOUSE was sure their lordships had lis-
tened with a uch attention to the speech of his noble friend
who was so well acquainted with Turkish affairs. There
was much in the resolutions in which he agree•l, but at the
same time he did not think it would be advisable at the

present moment that the resolutions should be agreed to.
(Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that the occupation of
Syria by foreign troops was an anomaly, and was a dan-
ger to the independence of the Turkish empire. The occu-
pation by French troops was assented to by all the Powers
who were parties to the arrangement of occupying Syria ;
but the Government of this country had no doubt whatever
that the occupation of Syria by the French treeps would
terminate, as had been arranged, on the sth of June. (Hear
hear.) He thought the papers which had been presented
very plainly showed that the Maronities originally com-
menced the unfortunate events which they deplored, and
that the Dresses eagerly entered into the contest. The Turks
were also he thought greatly to blame, but he thought. the
Turkish Government had rendered every reparation their
power by the vigorous efforts they had made to punish the
offenders. He did not however see that there would be any
advantage in their lordships expressing any opinion at pre-
sent on the subject. His noble friend had very properly
pointed out the great importance of the subject, but it might
have been said at any time within the last century that the
Turkish empire was in great danger. It was always in dan-
ger in one sense, because it was an empire composed of
varied races, with differing languages, creeds, and habits,
and it had powerful neighbours always disposed to press
upon it, so that it was exposed both to external and internal
pressure and disturbing causes. But he thought we were
very much disposed to exaggerate the danger. (Hear, hear.)
The reports laid on the table from the various British con-
suls gave a picture of the state of the Turkish empire some-
what different to those which were usually drawn. All
these reports concurred in stating that in many provinces
great improvement was-visible, and in pointing out that it
was not the laws of Turkey which were defective, so much
as the administration. The noble lord who had been all his
life so earnest in urging reforms upon the Porte, had
scarcely given it credit for the efforts made to give effect to
these reforms. In many parts of Turkey the laws were
equitable and enlightened, but unfortunately the admini-
stration was corrupt and irregular. The noble lord had
said for this we must seek a remedy, but he (Lord Work-
house) could not see any other course open to us than that
we had already pursued, viz., to advise the Porte in a
friendly spirit as to the course to be pursued with!respect to
the management of the finances of the empire. Her Majes-
ty's Government had recently sent two gentlemen to Con-
stantinople, possessed of great experience and knowledge in
financial affairs, to advise with the Turkish Government,
and if the Government would really listen to them, act upon
the advice, and avail themselves of the services of these two
gentlemen, the finances would be soon got into a regular
state, or at least very great improvements would be made.
His noble friend had not touched upon the effect of the
changes to be made in the government of Syria, so much as
he might have done. But in fact there were a great many
schemes "under consideration, and that of itself implied
great difference of opinion. Upon that point, as upon every
other, he could only say that it was the object of her Ma-
jesty's Government not to weaken that of Turkey in any
way. As to the French occupation of Syria, the Govern-
ment had no reason to suppose that it would be prolonged
beyond the appointed time, and he could assure his noble
friend that the advice given by the Government to the
Porte, was in all respects such as he himself would ap-
prove of.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said the question
really was, what were our engagements to Turkey, and
how far were we to be dragged into war without making
efforts to improve the internal condition of the empire? If
the object of the resolutions were simply to urge the with-
drawal of the French troops he could not assent to them,
because he believed the French Government were deter-
mined to carry out the arrangement. But the resolutions
referfed to the circumstances under which these troops were
sent there, and the interference of other powers. It was
quite clear from the papers uefore the house that such in-
terference was urgently called for, and he thought therefore
that the house would be justified in adopting the resolutions.
His noble friend who had just sat down had said there were
symptoms of improvement in Turkey, and that the state of
the Turkish army was owing to local and financial causes.
That was just what his noble friend said in his resolutions,
and showed the necessity for adopting resolutions which at
all events if not adopted he was glad to see upon the jour-
nals of their lordships' house. If governors of provinces
only kept an army upon paper, how was it possible to main-
tain internal tranquillity, or repress disturbances. Our en-
gagements to Turkey had already frequently led to a great
expenditure of blood and treasure on our part, and it would
be the height of folly for us not to look carefully at the ex-
tent of these engagements, and to take such measures as
would prevent the recurrence of such events. If we were
responsible for the welfare of Syria, we had a right to inter-
fere with its administration, and demand that it should be
so conducted as to prevent the recurrence of such sangui-
nary events as led to the present occupation by foreign
troops, which he believed had prevented the effusion of some
blood in Syria. The weak state of the Government of Turkey
was shown by the disturbances in the State of Montenegro
andneighbouring States,which the Government was unable
to put down, and he believed that at this moment Turkey
was unable to send a squadron into the Adriatic, because
she had no money. While we were prepared to fulfil all the
guarantees already, he hoped that we would take care and
give no more of such guarantees. We had hitherto faith-
fully fulfilled our treaty obligations to Turkey, and if we
wanted to get out of them we should do so openly. What
was really wanted by Turkey was a loan of money, and he
thought we were not prepared to assist it in that way. For
himself he should have liked the resolutions of his noble
friend to be adopted, in order that the opinion of their lord-
ships' house on the subject should have been recorded.
The Earl of MALMESBURY agreed with the =late lord
as to the weakness of Turkey in past times, but the bane of
Turkey had been not its own weakness, tut the constant
interference of foreign Powers. In Montenegro there had
been constant orders and interference, both by Russia and
France. He could say, from his own experience when in
office, that nothing could be more barbarous than the con-
duct of the Montenegrins; but in 1846, when they were
about to be subdued by the Turkish Government, the Rus-
sian Government interfered to prevent it, and since then
France had maintained a continual interference, for which
reasons were not stated, but could be imagined. However,
it was not his intention to enter upon this question at length
upon that occasion. He merely rose to say that Turkey
had received a great deal too much of advice, and that it
would be better if her Government were less interfered with
in future by any parties whatever. • (Hear, hear.)
Lord STRATFORD de RE DCLIFFE said a few words
in explanation, and stated he was of opinion that such was
the character of the Turkish Government and the Turkish
people that it was necessary to be continu ally pressing upon
their attention the necessity of carrying out the reforms
which were needed in that empire.
Earl GREY agreed with the noble earl opposite that it
was a great error on the part of European Governments to
be continually interfering in the affairs of Turkey. He
contended that Turkey should be left to itself. Reform, to
be of any value, must come from within. He hoped and
trusted they would not carry fin faer the policy of interfe-
rence, and it was for the purpose of expressing that opinion
that he had risen to say a few words.
Lord STRATFORD de RED CLIFFE said there were
at least ten great measures which had been adopted in
Turkey on the recommendation of the Government of this
country, but they had not been carried out.
Earl GREY asked what was the use interfering to recom-
mend reforms when they were not acted upon ?
Earl GRANVILLE did not rise to prolong the debate,
but to express a hope that the noble lord would not press
his resolutions, as he thought mischief would arise by the '
adoption of them, which he, however, considered their lord-
ships would not assent to. He did not agree with the senti •
ments expressed by the noble earl (Earl Grey) that in such
a state of things as they had witnessed in Syria, the Euro-
pean Governments should not interfere. If the Turkish em-
pire fell to pieces it would be difficult to say what would be
the solution. Having already interfered and entered into
engagements with Turkey, it would be very unwise in this
country not to offer such advice as they deemed would give
strength and solidity to the Turkish empire.
Lord STRATFORD de RE DCLIFFE then withdrew
the resolutions.
BOROUGH OF DUBLIN BILL.

Lord TALBOT d 3 MALAIIIDE, in moving the second
reading of this bill, explained that it was to make some
local improvements necessary in the city of Dublin.
The bill was read a second time, and their lordships ad-
Journed at 25 minutes past 7 o'clock.

---
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—YESTERDAY.
Llic CDRAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
ritINXTE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the following bills were con-
sidered and agreed to :—Garaton and Liverpool Railway ;
Great Western Railway (Capital) ; and Kingston-upon-
Thames and Leatherhead Road.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Blyth and Tyne Railway, Clitheroe Gas, Greetwell Dis-
trict Drainage, Leeds and Ealand Road, Limerick and
ailway, and Ross and Monmouth Railway.
FoTyhnees R
Trent, Anchholme, and Grimsby Railway and
Wycombe Railway . (Extensions) Bills were considered and
ordered for third read