The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 21, lB6l.

nution of the slave trade on the Mozambique coast, and even
that it was particularly on that part of the coast that the
trade was carried on. He thought a consul ought to be
appointed at Mozambique.
Mr. DODSON thought that before appointing a consul
in a permanent station on the coast, we ought to wait for
the result of the expedition of Dr. Livingstone.
Mr. GREGORY expressed his satisfaction at the course
which the Emperor of the French had taken in putting an
end to slavery in the island of Reunion, and hoped that he
would be induced to enter into some arrangement with the
Government of this country, and assist in putting down
slavery. From the present state of conflict between the
Northern and Southern States of America, he believed that
good would result to the cause of freedom. At the present
moment he thought that both the Northern and Southern
States ought to be in complete accord with the Government
of this country, in its desire to suppress this atrocious and
detestable traffic. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FORSTER was favourable to the appointment of a
consul at Mozambique, and as considerable benefit had re-
sulted from having a similar officer on the west coast of
Africa, he was induced to believe that much good would
arise from such a step as that which had been suggested by
the hon. member who had brought forward this subject. So
far as America was concerned, it should be borne in mind
that the Government of Mr. Buchanan and some of his pre-
decessors had been greatly influenced by Southern influence;
and since that influence had ceased to be felt there appeared
to be increased activity on the part of the American cruisers
in the performance of their duties. He looked with con-
siderable apprehension upon the proposal which had been
made to encourage Coolie immigration into Cuba, as he
feared that those labourers would be exposed to great op-
pression and acts of cruelty for which it would be difficult to
obtain redress. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HOPE said that, in his opinion, the only mode of
putting an end to the slave trade was by making it more
profitable to employ free labour. With this view he recom-
mended that immigration into our own colonies should be
extensively encouraged, and in order to give assistance to
this plan he suggested the imposition of a differential duty,
the proceeds of which should be applied as an emigration
fund for the benefit of our colonies. By means of a differen-
tial duty on the sugar produced in the Spanish colonies the
noble lord at the head of the Government might not only
obtain the means of providing a greater supply of labour,
but possibly of compelling Spain to act more honestly in
this matter than she had hitherto done. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. K INN AIRD said that for some time past almost the
whole of the slave trade had been carried en by vessels bear-
ing the American flag. He cordially supported the propo-
sition of the appointment of the consul at Mozambique, and
hoped that the noble lord at the head of the Government
would lose no time in having a British representative at that
port. A consul on that part of the east coast of Africa
would be useful not merely in aiding the suppression of this
immoral traffic, but of assisting in establishing commercial
relations in that part of the world, which would be of great
advantage to this country.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the house and the coun-

try were under obligations to his hon. friend who had brought
forward this motion, because it was a subject of the deepest
interest, and it was impossible that the House of Commons
The t l'auce
Wes,
tal:,oinuthgaittahheout abolition Lot too often or too strongly Express its opinions on the
it migruhttilb of that abominable system of the slave trade.
eof
exercisethe
been the case th
guished, except by the
still could not be wholly extin-
opinion—acting not
olluel Progress of opinion—enlightened
the minds of the people' upon the Government, but upon
carried on. (Hear.) of
late nations in which it was '
that there had been sornethingYinearl he regretted to say
on the part of our neighbours on the Othee nrastlidree
ooff
tahorelapse
Chan-
nel. Not many years ago France put an end to slaverylsin
her colonies, and there was reason to
hope that there was
no danger of any relapse. But the first symptoms of re-
lapse was shown when the. French Government, under M.
Guizot, refused to recognise that principle of the right of
search contained in the treaty negotiated by
Lord
Aber-
deen. That was an indication
tof e
system
retrograde
opinion on that question. Then came h
in the French of the
Regis, for obtaining a supply of labour
less than v
colonies ; but that was nothing more nor
least, so fsla e
ar as
trade in its purest and simplest forms ;
a trade, in one
the acquisition of the slaves went. Slaveb
inni, but
re-
spect, it was not; it was slave trade in the beg
inn
not in the end. Because, when those unhappy
.
cre natures
ry did not
were landed in the French colonies, where slave
exist, they were placed under the system of what was
termed apprenticeship, which, though disguised by other
names, was really a state of slavery. The manner in which
the slaves were at first obtained was precisely the same as
that which was resorted to in order to obtain negroes for
Cuba or any other slave-holding country. It was said that
ransoms were paid for them, that documents were signed
with every appearance of legal formality. But the labourers
were obtained by the persons who sold them to France, by
all manner of force and violence. The system was the re-
sult of the ascendency obtained in French councils by the
colonial interests, and for a long time the French Govern-
ment was deaf to all remonstrances addressed to it by the
Government of this country, pointing out that this was
really slave-trade, and contrary to every principle which
the French Government had openly promulgated, and de-
termined to abide by. (Hear.) At last the French Govern-
ment determined to put an end to this state of things, pro-
vided any other means could be found by which additional
labour could be procured for the colonies. The only means
by which we could whist in that matter was by allowing
them to procure coolies from possessions in India, and the
question was whether we should do so, on the condition of
the French Government putting an end to the liegill Com-

pact. There w great objection to allowing French vessels
to go t our territories in India for the purpose of obtaining a
supply of labourers, and it was necessary that some steps
should be taken by which we should be assured that no coolies
were taken away except by their own consent, and that they
were properly cared for and treated on the voyage. (Hear.)
A treaty had been drawn up by which the French autho-
rities would be entitled to employ coolies from India. It
was said that in this treaty the English had given every-
thing and taken nothing, but that was not exactly the
ease. Our object being to put an end to the abominations
of the slave-trade, he thought we were right in allowing
the French to avail themselves of the labour of the coolies,
if by that means we could lessen the amount of slave traffic ;
and as soon as that treaty was ratified a copy of it would
be laid upon the table of the house. (Hear, hear.) There
was no doubt that the crime of slavery still existed. How
was it carried on, and what prevented its extinction? No
doubt much of the evil was produced by the corruption of the
authorities in Cuba and the apathy on the subject which
prevailed in Spain. Remonstrances had been made by the
English Government and Consuls from time to time.
Cruisers had bees despatched, and orders issued, with the
view of checking the traffic. The answers received were,
that it was the intention of the Spanish Government to in-
terfere for its suppression,hut nothing satisfactory hsd been
done. At Cuba, even when a cargo of slaves was landed,
an answer was given by the authorities that they had made
inquiries and were unable to trace the fact of the landing
having been effeeted. This was a most disgraceful state of
things. Still there was hope, for Spain was feeling it to be
so disgraceful that she had sent ships to Cuba to exercise a
greater degree of vigilance upon the coast. The importa-
tions of slaves did not take place in Spanish ships only, but
in American also. We had remonstrated with the Ameri-
can Government against this prostitution of their flag, but
that remonstrance was considered by them to be an inter-
ference with their nationality. We then tried various other
schemes, proposing last year, for instance, that an English
and an American cruiser should cruise together for the
suppression of the traffic, but that offer was declined. The
member for Galway had suggested the present as a favour-
able moment for getting the assistance of the North as
against the South, seeing that the civil war was raging. It
was quite true that when an American cruiser was com-
manded by a Southern captain no effective assistance was
given to the suppression of the slave trade, he having shut
his eyes very much to what was going on upon the coast ;
but where the American cruiser was commanded by a cap-
tain from the North, then very vigilant co. operation was
afforded. (Hear.) England had also urged upon the Portu-
guese authorities the necessity of suppressing the traffic;
but then it should be recollected that the Portuguese pos-
sessions on the Eastern Coast of Africa were of enormous
length, and that many evils could be committe there un-
observed by mortal gaze. It was for the interest of Portu-
gal to suppress the traffic, and he believed the authorities
at Lisbon, although they might not be able effectually to
control what went on upon the coast of Africa, were wil-
ling to render every assistance. (Hear, hear.) The pro-
priety of placing a differential duty on slave-grown sugar
had been suggested to-night as a remedy, but that had
been discussed before, and it was not a measure
to which it would be desirable to resort, because if they
levied a duty on the importation of slave-grown sugar they
might be asked why they did not apply the principle of lay-
ing an impost on other articles as well as sugar. He be-
lieved that the appointment of a consul at Mozambique
would have very little influence on the suppression of the
slave trade. At the same time, he admitted that that was
a point well deserving of attention.' The present Govern-
ment were most anxious to continue the noble conduct
which this country had been for years carrying out with a
view to the total suppression of the slave trade all over the
world. Cuba might now be said to be the only plague- spot
on the face of the globe. Still he did not despair of seeing
slavery abolished even there, if not speedily and entirely,
yet gradually and largely. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY believed that the horrors of the middle
passage were greater now than when cruisers were not
employed upon the African coast.
The subject then dropped.
MERCHANT SHIPPING COMMITTEE,
Mr. LINDSAY called attention to the Report of the
Merchant Shipping Committee of 1859-60, and moved—
"That in the opinion of this house, it is to be regretted
that the Government has not, in the present session of Par-
liament, introduced measures to carry into effect the more
important recommendations of the Merchant Shipping Com-
mittee ; that the shipping interest is one of great import-
ance, and ought to be relieved from all the peculiar burdens
and restrictions to which it is still subjected; that more
effective measures ought to be adopted by the. Government
to induce foreign governments to reciprocate the immuni-
-1 ties and privileges which this country has granted to the
vessels belonging to foreign nations entering the ports of
Great Bi Hain and of her colonies and possessions; that
the Executive Government should, during the recess,
call the attention of those non-reciprocating nations
to the anomalous and very unsatisfactory state of
our maritime relations with them, and should pre-
pare bills to carry into effect, at an early period in the
ensuing session of Parliament, the recommendations of the
Merchant Shipping Committee." The hon. member ad-
vanced some reasons in support of his motion, but intimated
at the close that he had no intention cf dividing the house
upon it.
Mr. CAVE referred to the passing of the Inland Freight
Bill, and remarked that that measure met with no opposi-
tion from his side of the house, although it was brought
forward in a very thin house, at a late hour, when the re
porters were very much tired. That bill did not pass the
House of Lords, and he hoped the Government would bring
forward some comprehensive measure in the ensuing
session.
Mr. M. GIBSON said with regard to the lighthouse
dues, he was of opinion that the merchant shipping should
pay that charge. The surplus of those dues had gone to re-
lieve the shipping interest to the extent of some £61,000 or
£70,000 a year. Where shipowners formerly paid £lOO, they
now only paid £4O. An agitation had arisen that (here
should not be compulsory pilots. Owners held that those
pilots were not in their charge, and consequently they were
not responsible for damage done when vessels were in their
charge. That was a reason why, he apprehended, that
the shipping interest would oppose any change. There
were only three countries in Europe where we hqd re-
ciprocity in these matters But shipping was increasing
very rapidly. In the first six months ending the 30th of
June, in the present year, the tonnage entered and cleared
was 5,951,723 tons. In the first six months of 1860 it was
5,628,589 tons, whilst in a corresponding period of 1859 it
was only 5,439,277, showing, during those three years, a
regular increase. In 1860, the tonnage entered and cleared
from British ports during only six months was three.
fourths of what it was during the whole of the year 1850.
So that, since the repeal of the Navigation Laws, the ia-
crease had been large and progressive. (Hear, hear.) Again,
the increase in value was proportionate to that of tonnage.
During the six months ending the 30th of June, 1860, the
value of exports in British ships was £10,263,893 against
£9,226,454 for the same six months of the year 1860; so
that the repeal of the Navigation Laws had not injured the
shipping interest, as was anticipated, but, on the contrary,
had materially benefited it. He could congratulate the
house on a considerable:increase in the exports to Italy under
the new state of affairs that had been inaugurated there, in
consequence of the changes introduced by the Sardinian
government. He quoted these figures to remove any er-
roneous impressions that might have prevailed on this sub-
ject. Her Majesty's Government was extremely anxious
to remove every impediment in the Navigation Laws, and
he felt bound to state that a bill might be introduced early
next session with respect to the liability of thipowners and
compulsory pilotage.
Mr. CAVE—And a freightage bill?
Mr. GIBSON—That would also be included in the pro-
positions of the Board of Trade.
The subject then dropped.
THE EMPEROR OF THE FRENCH AND ITALY.
Mr. GRIFFITH called attention to the tone and tenour
of certain telegraphic despatches which had just been ad-
dressed to the Italian Government by the Emperor of the
French. He said that a few days ago at Vichy the Empe-
ror Napoleon happened to cast his eye over a Legitimist
journal, called the " Gazette de France," where, in the cor-
respondence from Naples, he read a statement to the effect
that General Pinelli had ordered three peasants to be shot
for the alleged offence of having carried provisions to
the brigands. Without further inquiry, the Emperor sent
the following despatch to General Fleury, who was then in
the north of Italy :
The Emperor to General Fleury.—Vichy, July 21, 10.35.
" I have written to Rome to make remonstrances. The
accounts which arrive are of a nature to alienate from the
thing like thet,l.
Italian cause all honest hearts. Not only misery and
anarchy are at their height, but the most unworthy culpa-
talkies are the order of the day. A General, whose name I
That despatch was
her forgotten, having forbidden that the peasants should
fields, provisions with them in going to their work in the
of the 22d, but °nth% morning
e followin
bread
It:
been
those to be shot upon whom a morsel of
!Rind. The Bourbons have never done any-
" The Gazette of Prancea,u
howl). to Baron Ricasoli on the evening
igoaf accounttiht
se sam
correspondenceo same
f dt
haey matterth journalefr
om
L' Italie had given th
had caused three peasant; to 11%h announces that General Pinelli
who were suspected of
Naples of the 9th of July,
having conveyed provisions to thebl
to contradict absolutely this story on %ars'
may have afforded a pretence for it are We We are able
1.1 .hat
made by General Pinelli to forbid the bakers in localities
exposed to the attacks of the brigands, from making a lairgiee:
quantity of bread than is required by the population of the
place, and from selling it to Corpesons outside ; whieli is a
measure of simple prudence, revent the maintenance
the fact related by the Gazette de France, and assert its
and extension of briffandagre. We therefore totally deny
statements to be falsehoods, and totally undeserving of
credit."
In order, he supposed, to make the despatch more insulting
to the Italian Government. it was not sent in cipher, but in
the ordinary languge of the country, and its contents were
known by every clerk between Vichy and Turin, If bri-
gandage existed in the South of Italy nobody was more re
sponsible for it than the very man who now affected a vir-
tuous indignation and presumed to insult the Italian Go-
vernments on account of an erroneous statement in a
Legitimist newspaper. He believed that this proceeding on
the part of the Emperor of the French would have a very
different effect from that which it was intended to have on
the Italian Minister, Baron Ricasoli was distinguished for

firmness of mind and nobility of character. Not a single
inch of Italian territory would ever be yielded by him, and
his answer to the gratuitous rebuke from the Emperor of
the French would be such as to vindicate the independence
of Italy. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. HENNESSY,
The house went into Committee of Supply, when the dis-
cussion was resumed on the vote for building iron ships.

IRON-CASED SHIPS.
Admiral WALCOT entirely approved the course which
had been taken by the Admiralty as explainedby the noble
lord at the morning sitting. The protection of our own
shores, our enormous commerce, and our widespread colo-
nies and dependencies rendered it a matter of vital import-
ance that our navy should be plated on a footing not only
equal, but superior to every other navy in the world. Our
naval.supremacy was essential to our existence as an em-
pire. He should therefore not only concur in the present
vote, but next session would give his most cordial support
to any increase of the estimate of £2,300,000 which might
be thought necessary. He gave every credit to the late
First Lord of the Admiralty for his exertions to place
our navy in the state in which it ought to be. He
wished to know from the noble lord whether the six ships
he proposed to lay down were to be altogether of iron or of
wood and iron combined. At no distant period he believed
the staple material used in the construction of our ships
would be iron, but there could be no objection to converting
those for which the timber had been prepared into iron-
cased ships. Independently of large ships like the Warrior
and Black Prince we required some of smaller dimensions—
not more than 280 feet long,carrying 18 guns, cased entirely
in iron and having a speed of about 12 knots an hour. He
did not exactly understand what the noble lord proposed
with respect to the construction of the ships he mentioned
to-day. What was to be their tonnage, what guns were they
to carry, and were they to be built entirely by contract, or,
to some extent, in our naval yards ? Before the Admiralty
proceeded with these ships the Warrior should be fairly
tried, not being sent to sea in smooth weather, but with the
prospect of a good heavy gale of wind.
Captain JERVIS had heard the statement of the noble
lord this morning with great satisfaction, and it had also
afforded him no little gratification to find the right hon.
baronet the member for Droitwich giving the noble lord
his earnest support. He had, however, heard with great
surprise the right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle (Sir
J. Graham), although in a tolerably full house, propose
that the vote should be postponed in order that it might be
discussed when there was a larger attendance, They ought
to support the Government energetically to enable it at the
earliest possible period to have as good and efficient a fleet
of iron ships as the French pcssessed. The Admiralty could
not be too careful in the steps they were taking with respect
to the mode of constructing iron ships. In asking now for
only £250,000 for this purpose the Government were acting
judiciously. We had to reconstruct a navy which should
have the mastery of any other navy in the world, and the
average cost of each iron-cased-ship was estimated at half-
a-million sterling. He wished to know whether the Ad-
miralty had determined to condemn rolled iron plates, and
to confine themselves entirely to the making of steam ham-
mered plates instead.
Mr. LINDSAY said that the right hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Carlisle, when this estimate was brought forward at
the morning sitting, thought the matter too important to
be considered in so thin a house. The question was now re-
vived at the evening sitting, when the attendance was not
any larger, and the right hon. baronet himself was absent.
It was a great question whether by this enormous expendi-
ture we were not creating a greater danger from within than
that against which we were seeking to guard from without.
The effect of our increased armaments would be to induce
the French Government to build more ships; and, he would
ask, where was this continual emulation of expenditure to
end ? He doubted that the French were building 10 new
iron ships, and hoped the Government would show some
better ground for this proposition than mere rumour. He
had sent a gentleman to visit the dockyards of France, and
could see no signs of the great preparations that were
alleged to be going on. Unless the noble lord could give a
sufficient explanation cf the necessity for this vote, he
should certainly oppose it.
Lord PALMERSTON—It is supposed by my hon. friend
that our information rests upon the statement of Admiral
Elliot. Now, Ido not in the least degree mean to discredit
that report, but we have other information upon the subject
from totally different quarters. (Hear, hear.) We know
that the French Government have now afloat six iron
vessels of various sizes—two of them two-deckers, not fri-
gates—(hear)--all large vessels. We know that they have
laid down lately the keels and made preparations to com-
plete 10 other iron vessels of considerable dimensions.
(Hear, hear.) The design was taken as far back as Decem-
ber last, but was not carried into effect until May, because
they were waiting to ascertain what were the qualities and
the character of La Gloire and other ships afloat. My hon.
friend says he sent a friend to the French dockyards, who
saw nothing. I remember an amusing story called "Eyes
and No Eyes"—(laughter)—one person who saw every,
thing, and the other, who made the same tour, saw
nothing ; but the one who saw was right, for the things
he saw were there, and the things which the other man did
not see were not the less In existence. (Hear, hear.) Well,
here are six ships afloat, or which could be completed in the
course of next year. Ten others are begun, which will be
completed, with ordinary exertion, in the course of 18
months or two years, and which by great exertion might be
completed in less time. We know that the French Govern-
ment have great dockyard establishments. The area of their
dockyards is, I believe, three or four times that of our own,
They have an almost unlimited amount of labour, for they
are not now occupied in building purely wooden ships, and
if it were their interest or their view to hasten in any great
degree the completion of these iron vessels—there is no il-
lusion about them, for we know their names and the ports
at which they are being built—if it suited them to hasten
materially the completion of these ships, they might proba-
bly finish them in 18 months. That makes 16 iron ships ; but
besides them France has, I believe, 11 floating batteries, as
they are called, but two or three of which are very powerful
seagoing ships. That makes 27 ships which they might have
fit for sea at the end of two years, (Hear.) My hon. friend
asks if this is to go on, England increasing her force and
France increasing hers. But I soy in this case France has
taken the lead. It is not our rreparations which induce
France to make her preparations; but it is her great prepa-
rations which render it indispensable we should make cor-
responding preparations. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman tells
us to look at home and spoke about a bad harvest, interrupted
trade, the industry of the country impaired and thwarted.
Those would be unpleasant and lamentable results, but are
we, in anticipation of those evils,with our eyes open, to add
an additional evil—(hear)—that of having another country
superior to us at sea? Is that a remedy for those evils?
Upon the contrary, it would be a great aggravation of them,
and would expose this country to a condition which my hon.
friend, as a good Englishman, would be most unwilling to
see it exposed. There is nothing in what he has said to jus-
tify the vote which he announced his intention of giving ;
and I hope, after this explanation, he will not feel it neces-
sary to continue his opposition to the vote. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY hoped tha; the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty would tell the house in what ports and arsenals of
France the six great iron ships, the 11 powerful iron-cased
batteries, and the 10 ships laid down were to be found. If
what the noble lord had stated was true—and he ought to
be accurately informed—his statement was quite alarming,
and he for one would not be satisfied with a vote of
£2,500,000, but would be prepared to vote double that sum.
France had no right to have these ships. If she had them,
she could not _be honest in her professions to England—
(hear)—and it behoved us to know what she meant by such
armaments. He could not help thinking, however, that
the Government had been misinformed.
Mr. HENLEY should not have offered any observation
on this question bat for the remarks of his hon. and gallant
friend (Captain Jervis), who had found fault with his pro-
posal for postponing this debate. Already the discussion
that had taken place had been a full warrant for that post-
ponement. (Hear, hear.) The statement just made by the
Prime Minister was not unimportant. (Hear, hear.) His
hon. and gallant friend said that when the Navy Estimates
were proposed, the house had been forewarned of these
supplementary votes. His hon. friend must have had
quicker ears than himself. He should have been much
snrprised if, when the noble lord had proposed the Navy
Estimates, any one had discovered in his speech any
ground for the opinion that a supplementary vote would
be taken pledging the country to a future cxpenditure of
£2,500,000. The noble lord had taken credit to himself
for having made a candid statement to the house
of the purpose for which the £2,500,000 was re-
quired. But if this supplementary vote had been an-
nounced when the Navy Estimates were under discussion,
it m ould have been a mere matter of course, on which
it would not have been necessary for the roble lord to have
said one word. (Hear.) His hon. and gallant friend urged the
Government not to go on in haste, and to do nothing blind-
fold. He recommended them to try experiments on iron-
cased ships—on the Warrior, for example, which was almost
the only iron-cased ship we had got. It did not seem, how-
ever, very satisfactory to build up a ship at a vast expense
and then batter her to pieces. (A laugh.) It was not quite
clear whether the idea of building iron-cased ships did not
first come from us, although the French had worked it out
more rapidly and continuously. We had waited to see
whether modern artillery would batter these plates or not.
It was now quite clear that, under all circumstances, we must
go on. (Hear.) He did not think the country had any choice
in that respect, but he disagreed with the hon. member (Mr.
Lindsay) in thinking that this was a matter to be regarded as
one of hostility on the part either of France or England. The
hon. melnber had no right to say that it was any proof of
hostility on the part of France to choose to have a navy.
The French always had a navy. We destroyed it at the
time of the Revolution, but France chose to have a navy
again. Nor was it a proof of hostility if France thought
that iron ships were better than wooden ones. We ought
to look at this question irrespective of France, and to take
care that we had a navy equal not only to that of France,
but all other nations put together. Every small State was
building iron-cased ships now, and if we waited until cun-
ning men in artillery battered the Warrior to pieces and
ascertained the number of plates that would resist shot, we
should fall so much behind that when the pinch of the
game came we should not be able to fetch it up. (Hear.)
The Government must have time to build these ships, and
if we did not go on at the same rate as other nations we

should find ourselves behind in the race. (Hear, hear.)
It was the duty of the house under such circumstances not
to look with too jealous an eye upon what the Government
might do. The Government must do the best they could.
No man could tell whether plating in this or that way would
eventually turn out most successful. He rather believed
that until we went to war, which he most sincerely prayed,
we might not do, we should not really find out whether big
ships or little ships were best. If the Government did their
best, the country—at all events he could answer for himself,
would lint find fault with them if experience should prove they
had been mistaken. The country, in any case, would have
to pay the piper, that could not be helped. The hon. mem-
ber (Mr. Lindsay) had taken a very curious course. (Hear,
' hear.) He said that he did not believe anything that any-
body else said in comparison with the information he had
received, yet he said that if the statements of the Govern-
ment were to be believed the £2,500,000 was a mere fleabite,
and that the house ought to vote £5,000,000. He thought
when the Government stated that they had the information

which they said they now possessed—and the noble lord the
First Minister had used a strong expression, for he said
he knew it—it was no matter if a hundred other per-
sons went to look about, opening their eyes, or shutting

their eyes, and perhaps having no eyes to see at all—
(laughter)—for the latter proceeding ought not to weigh for
one moment with the country against the po,itive declara-
tion of the Prime Minister. (Hear.) He therefore, should
certainly support the present vote. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET considered the observations of the right
hon. gentleman to be so completely to the purpose as to
render unnecessary any further statement in favour of the
present vote. He was sure the country would agree in what
had fallen from the right hon. gentleman—(hear)—and,
therefore, on that point he should not say another word.
With respect to the hon. member for Sunderland, he re-
gretted that a gentleman of his knowledge and experience
in shipping and love of country (for he had stated that very
day that he was willing to vote any sum that might be ne-
cessary to put the navy on a proper footing), should have
expressed himself as he had done in the face of being told
officially. as he had been over and over again, of the in-
crease of foreign navies in regard to iron-cased ships. Every

word which his noble friend at the head of the Government

had stated he could affirm to be fact—(hear)—and he could

also inform the house that the increase in other navies was
going on in a ratio corresponding with that of France.
(Hear, hear.) Austria was building two iron-cased ships;
the King of Italy was building two, and had two others
ordered to be constructed; and Spain was building two.
Here were not less than eight iron-cased ships over and
above what were possessed by France, and he believed
that Prussia, and, in fact, every continental nation were
moving in the same direction. The right hon. member for
Carlisle had that afternoon asked whether this additional
sum was to be the ultimate cost of these ships, or whether
this expenditure was to go or. over and above the ordinary
estimates of the year. It was impossible to state anything
with certainty for the future, but he was quite sure that
the Duke of Somerset was anxious, inasmuch as there was
to be this great expenditure in building iron-cased ships by
contract, that there should be certain corresponding reduc-
tions made in the dockyard expenditure. (Hear, hear.)
He trusted that, if matters remained peaceable, and no un-
foreseen and unfortunate event occurred, in future years
there would be a still further decrease of expenditure in the
dockyards. This year the Government decreased this ex-
penditure by something like £300,000. The hon. member
for Finsbury seemed to think that because the Government
were going to build these very large ships of iron, therefore
the Admiralty had changed their mind, and had given up
the building of wooden ships. It would be very improper
that such an idea should go fertile. There was no intention
whatever on the part of the Admiralty to give up wholly
the building of wooden ships. (Hear, hear.) When these
great sized ships were conceived he believed that wood had
not strength for the purpose ; but for corvettes, gunboats,
and the usual fleet, which must be maintained for the pro-
tection of British commerce all over the world, as yet iron
vessels had been found no substitute whatever. (Hear,
hear.) Therefore he trusted that it would not be supposed,
because it was necessary to construct at once a certain num-
ber of very large iron-cased ships, that in future there
would be no further building or repairing of wooden ships
in the dockyards. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant
member for Harwich seemed to think that the Warrior no
sooner than completed was to be battered to pieces. (A
laugh.) That was not the intention of the Admiralty.
What they weye preparing to do was to carry on expe-
riments against a target precisely similar to the side of
the Warrior, and that target was now being constructed,
and would no doubt be the object of very interest-
ing experiments. He trusted his hon. friend would not per-
severe in his opposition to the vote, for in so doing he would
be acting against the wishes of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI—If I were to judge from the speech of
the Foreign Secretary the other night, and from the address
of the noble lord this evening, I should suppose that the
good understanding between England and France is in
great peril. (Hear, hear.) That is not my opinion. Not-
withstanding the rumours which are in circulation, I be-
lieve that that good understanding will be maintained, and
I am still of opinion, which I have always expressed in this
house, that on that good understanding the happiness
of the world and the cause of progress and civilisation
mainly depend. (Hear, hear.) Then, how is it that ques-
tions of this irritating nature are mixed up with points of
business details, such as those which ought to occupy the
attention of the committee of supply this evening ? There
is no doubt that a great change has taken place in ship-
building. There is no doubt that no country is so much
interested in the best construction of vessels, and of vessels
of war especially, as our own country. But it does not fel-
low because we feel it our duty to reconstruct the navy of
England upon the accepted principles of science which now
are acknowledged, that we should be supposed to be taking
a course adverse to the interest of any other country, and
especially of that country which is so near to us, with which
our interests are so various and numerous, and with which,
whatever may be the occasional misunderstandings, the
general tendency of our policy, no doubt, for the last half-
century, has been in the direction of increased amity and
increased good understanding. (Hear, hear.) Is there
any cause for this ? Is it France that objects to the recon •
struction of the English navy, or to the building of English
iron-cased ships? No one for a moment ever hinted that there
was any protest from the other side of the Channel against
our course of proceeding in this respect, and I have yet to
learn that we have felt it our duty to protest against the
course which France is taking. No one contests that France
has a right to establish a navy—and a navy of great power,
—for such a proceeding is justified by her geographical posi-
tion, her possessions, and the general course of her conduct
in various parts of Europe ; but then it is said by some hon•
gentlemen that there is no termination of this competition
between England and France as to the respective conditions
of their navies. • I admit that if every time we build new
ships of war France proceeds to build an increased number,
and if every moment we hear that France is laying downnew
keels, we are to enter upon an indefinite competition with
France, such a state of proceeding would be most hostile, and
perhaps fatal to the interests and fortunes of both countries.
(Hear, hear.) But what is the use of government or diplo-
macy, or of cordial understandings, if such a state of things
can exist ? (Hear.) I speak with great deference, of course,
to the Government, and with the reserve befitting one in
my inferior position as compared with the Ministers on this
subject;' but I certainly was always under the impression
—at least as long as I had any intimate acquaintance with
public affairs—that there was on the part of the French
Government, certainly for many years past, a perfect will-
ingness to come to •an understanding with the Govern-
ment of this country as to the relative proportion of the
naval power of both countries, and with a clear acknow-
ledgment on the part of France, candidly expressed and
voluntarily offered, that there should be a superiority—l
will not say a supremacy, but a great superiority—on the
side of England, in natural consideration of the undoubted
superiority in military pow er possessed by France. (Hear.)
lam under that impression. I cannot doubt that there
is to be found on the part of the Government of France
a readiness to come to an understanding as to the definite
proportion which should exist between the naval power of
the two countries, and if that be so, then I would submit
that there ought to be no danger of that unlimited and
ruinous competition to which reference has so often
been made, and that we ought to see before us
the point at which this vast expenditure would
be likely to cease. If this be a just ~view then I say it
ought to be in :,the power of the Minister to tell us that,
while under existing circumstances it is deemed to be
the duty of the Government both of England and France to
reconstruct their naval forces, they do this, not because they
have entered into reckless rivalry, but because they have
arrived at the grave and politic conclusion that that re-con-
struction is to be effected with the understanding on the
part of France that the naval superiority of England shall
not be a subject of jealousy to her, but that she is prepared
willingly to accept that superiority as the natural and in..
• evitable result of the circumstances of the British empire—
(hear)—France at the same time expecting from us that we
shall exhibit no unjust or unnatural jealousy of her equally
necessary military power. (Hear, hear.) If the noble lord
at the head of the Government would only come forward
and tell us this, with all the authority which waits upon
the expression of opinion of a statement of a Minister
and especially of a Minister so highly experienced and in-
tellectual as himself, a better understanding on this subject
would, I cannot help thinking, prevail. There would not
then be upon the part of France the hostile and irritable
feeling of which we have heard so much, nor upon the part
of England that undignified panic—(hear)—and that readi-
ness or reckless expenditure, which I for one entirely de-
precate. (Cheers.) Am I right or wrong in maintaining
the expediency of that course ? The noble lord can tell me
that I am labouring under a delusion if such be the case,
and that it is a mistake to suppose there exists between
the statesmen of the two countries that generous and wise
and politic understanding as to the relative proportion of
the naval force of each to which I have adverted. If he
makes such a statement then I may be induced to believe
that the wildest suggestions which I have heard in this
house upon this subject may have some authority. But if
the noble lord can assure us—and I am unable to bring my-
self to doubt that he can—that the understanding of which
I speak exists, and that France—while establishing—as she
is in my opinion perfectly justified in doing—a navy equal
to the exigencies of her position and 411 claims on her power
and patronage that may Oise, le willing at the name time to