The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-02 00:00:00

0.'.. ,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CIiA.NCELLOB, took his seat on the woolsack
At the usual hour.

CHURCH RATES,

The Earl of DERBY presented 101 petitions against the
abdition of Church-rates.

Several other peers presented petitions to a similar effect.

SECOND READINGS.

The following bills wore road a second time :--Sutton
Coldfield Corporation Estates, Caledonian Railway (Stone-
house Branch), and Glasgow and blilngavie Junction

ITALIAN AFFAIRS.

The Marquis of NORMANBY rose to move an address
for copies of any despatches which have been exchanged
between her Majesty's Government and those of Prance,
Sardinia, or of any other European Power, on the question
of the recognition of the blockade of Gaeta; also of copies
of any despatches from her Majesty's Minister at Turin, con-
taining a report of the number of persons qualified to vote,
and of those who actually did vote, at the last elections
in Italy :—Similar returns of the partial resolutions in
September last; also Copies of despatches trans-
mitting, the proclamations and general orders of
Generals Cialdini., Di Sonnaz, and Pinelli as to
the struggle going on in the Abruzzi and other parts of
the Neapolitan dominions between the Neapolitan
Royalists and the Piedmontese army ; also copies of any
despatches giving an explanation of the Royal decree
arbitrarily abolishing the administrative autonomy of
Tuscany, immediately preceding the meeting of the
National Parliament, which was summoned nominally to
decide upon the reconstruction of the whole country; also,
copy of any despatches from Mr. Elliot giving an account
of the proceedings with reference to the plebiscite which
extinguished the separate existence of the Government
of the Two Sicilies ; also, copy of any de-
spatches explaining the extraordinary circumstances
that some of the constitutional Ministers of the King of
Naples remained without any intermission in the same
confidential situation under General Garibaldi ; and also
copies of any reports made to the Lords of the Admiralty
from the admiral commanding her Majesty's fleet in the
Mediterranean as to the part taken by that fleet from the
landing of Garibaldi and during the invasion of the coun-
try by King Victor Emmanuel. The noble lord said these
papers bore on very important points on which the papers
already given to the house furnished no information. A
remarkable circumstance connected with the papers already
published was—it appeared that Sir J. Hudson took a small
share in tne correspondence with the Government relative
to Italian affairs. It seems to be almost certain that the
distinguished diplomatist must have had some most im-
portant conversation with Count Cavour, and the result
must have been communicated to the Home Govern-
ment. The noble lord referred to the affairs of Savoy
and Nice, and observed that, when he asked a question
relative to a certain despatch on a former occasion, he had
been informed that the reason it had not been produced
earlier than it was arose from the circumstance that it had
not arrived from Paris until three days after it was
written ; but on referring to the Blue Book he found
what appeared to him to be somewhat strange, that in no
single instance watt there a despatch from Lord Cowley in
Paris, but what had been received the day after it had
been written. After alluding at some length to the
idea that the Government had been disingenuous
throughout the whole of their Italian negotia-
tions, he spoke of the different schemes for Ita-
lian government that had been tried at different
times. These were all crowned by the last new plan for a
uniform Italy, the Italy of Liborio Romano, the Italy of
Count Cavour, and, he was sorry to say, the Italy of Lord
Jolla Russell. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He eon-
•tended that the term national independence had been abused
by Sardinia, particularly in her treatment of the countries
which had been annexed to Piedmont. He argued in favour
of a federal as opposed to a unified Italy, by the former of
which Naples might have been liberalised and still pre-
served to the King. He argued that the gold of Piedmont
had as much to do with her 'success as her arms—large
sums having been distributed in Sicily and Naples. In ge-
neral he contended against the late movement in Italy, and
the settlement which had been arrived at.
Lord WODEHOTJSE said that it appeared to him the
speech of the noble marquis required scarcely any reply
from any noble lord representing her Majesty's Government,
for the noble marquis had said almost nothing as to the con-
duct of the Government. With regard to the first papers
in the list moved for by the noble marquis, the only com-
munication received by her Majesty's Government was a
formal notice from the Sardinian Government announcing
the blockade of Gaeta, which had been published in the
Gazette. There had been, indeed, a question put to Lord
Cowley respecting the siege, which, however, led to no fur-
ther communications. As to the second point, the produc-
tion of despatches giving the number of votes at the elec-
tions, no doubt that might be a very suitable return to
move for in the Sardinian Chambers ; but her Majesty's
Government was possessed of no information on the sub-
ject. As to the proclamation of General Cialdini, it was to
be found among the papers on the table. The other pro-
clamations moved for, he believed, were not amongst these
papers ; but upon this part of the subject all the despatches
in the possession of the Government had been laid before
Parliament. The next inquiry was as to Mr. Elliot's de-
spatches, On this point he thought the noble marquis
could scarcely have read the papers which he described as
so meagre ; for, at pages ill, 117, 132, there was abun- i
dance of information on the subject. The circumstance
that several Ministers of the King of Naples remained
in the same situations under General Garibaldi was
certainly a very remarkable circumstance—(a laugh)—
and
,if he (Lord Wo'lehouse) were:possessed of any secret
information tending to throw light on this interesting sub-
ject, he certainly should not withhold it from their lordships
—(a laugh)—but he had none.. Lastly, with respect to Ad-
miral Muady's despatches, the noble marquis's motion con-
tained an assumption, as well as an inquiry for papers, the
assumption being that the admiral in command of the fleet
had taken an active part in the proceedings in Italy. The
Only occasions ou which Admiral Mundy interfered were
two; one was when the general commanding the Neapolitan
troops wished Admiral Mundy to meet him, and the meet-
ing took place on board the admiral's ship ; the other was
an occasion on which he gave Mr. Elliot and General Gari-
baldi an opportunity of meeting on board his vessel, and
when an offer which was made by Admiral Mundy was
politely declined. These were the only occasions on which
Admiral Mundy had interfered, and there would be no ob •
jection to lay his despatches on the table. If therefore the
noble marquis would be good enough to amend his motion
in the above particulars he should be happy to accede. He
briefly commented' on the lengthy remarks of Lord Nor.
rnanby, and asserted that the Government had the greatest
sympathy with, and admiration of, the efforts made by tile
Italians for their independence; while he was astonished
that the noble marquis seemed to have not a spark of sym-
pathy for those efforts.
The Earl of MALMESBURY urged that the Italian re-
-volution should be looked at from a political rather than a
poetical point of view, and expressed his opinion that, look-
ing to the difference of character between the Italians of the
north and south, it would be better to have two kingdoms
than one in Italy. 'He argued that Sardinia was influenced
in her conduct more by interested motires than by a pure
desire for the freedom of Italy.
Lord LLANOVER said, as far as he could judge, not
only from his visit to Naples on the occasion referred to,
but also from having been frequently among them, and
knowing the feelings of the Italian people generally, he
must say his noble friend was entirely wrong in stating that
their feelings were violated in any way whatever on the
occasion alluded to; on the contrary, there were great re-
joicings on that occasion. 'With regard to the presence of
the French fleet at Gaeta, he felt perfectly certain that
were it not for that circumstance, Gaeta must have fallen
at a much earlier period, and all that great effusion of blood
and that reactionary movement which was spreading through
the country would not have taken place. With reference
to another point, the confiscation of the property of the
royal family of NapTeS, the- for
Foreign lord the Secretary
Foreign A train protested as far as he could against that act,
and wrote a despatch to Turin expressing a hope that no
proposition of that kind would be carried out. The noble
lord said also that there was no feeling whatever for Eng

land existing in Italy. He (Lord Llanover) never saw any

feeling more strong froni Naples to Turin in favour of Great
Britain. The people of Italy did not wish us to rush into
wlt, butihey- knew Very well we had sympathy for them,
and thCy'know arse that the expression of those feelings,

whether within the,walls of the English legislature or
throughout the country, would haysgreat effect in Europe.
Ile wished at this moment there was no intervention—if
„there was, not, depend upon it Italy would soon settle down
and be quiet ; and he hoped now, from circumstances which
ha."l taken place.within the last few days, that an illustrious
Pers',.'nage wouldsee that it was impossible to please two
parties 160_ opposite to each other, and that he must either
go with the ultrptaoutaue party or go with his people. But
of
the this be was quite,
glare, that if they left the Italians to mselves, and •
mowed them to manage themselves, they
„would make use of those benefits which God Almighty had
g h
tm yen them, b
(hear, hear t of-which hitherto despots had deprived
th.)

Tile Marquis of NOR:Id ANBY briefly replied. He wanted
to kni,lv if his noble friend, Who
any intervention there
inter-
vention at Naples, had not observedwshi ed there was no
did he not know
in the shape of the English Legio
they were encouraged by the Eniiilloado
was
note roust say his
LLANOVER—I am not aware of it.) Then he ment• [Lord
much.
noble friend's knoWledge of Naples
Perhaps his noble friend was not aware either that
there were 500,000 inhabitants in Naples, all thatactata though
ward out of that number to show syinpathy for Garibaldi
joining the legion was jttst 80. The noble marq •
tus eon_
eluded by saying that he should accept the paper in the
modified form agreed to by his noble friend (Lord Wed,s_.

bowie.)
Tim motion, as amended, was agreed to.
Tkoir 16roolilpe Eljoitrned at 8 o'clock,