The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-15 00:00:00

rHF.. SUN, LONDON,

the introduction of the bill, and also on its second
reading.
Mr. AYRTON supported the motion. He com-
plained of the second reading of the bill coming on so
late on a former night as to preclude discussion, and he
claimed the right of considering and commenting on thy'
principle and details of the bill at any stage. He re-
ferred to the house going into committee on the bill,
and passing the first and most important clause on a
former night, at a time when hon. members ought to
have been in their beds. The hon. and learned member
contended that the continuance of the present system
was essential for the maintenance of the rights
and liberties of the people, especially in politi-
cal cases. The people ought not to be at the
absolute discretion of the stipendiary magis-
trates and the police, who might readily be made
tools of oppression. He complained of the reckless and
insulting nature of this bill towards the inhabitants of
the metropolis, and he quoted, in illustration, the clause
giving power to the Attorney-General to indict a person
fur an indictable offence on information filed under the
act without previous inquiry or an oath or affidavit, and
to keep a man in prison at his pleasure by depriving
him of the right of applying for a writ of habeas corpus.
It was dangerous to trifle with 21 millions of people in
this manner, and he called on the house to peremptorily
refuse its assent to the measure. He called on the house
to amend the defects of the present system, and not de-
stroy it.
Mr. M`MA.HON said that the bill was based upon the
supposition that there were stipendiary magistrates—
men of legal attainments—within the Central Criminal
Court district, whose duty it was to investigate criminal
cases, and who might safely be left to discharge the func-
tions of grand jurors, but hon. members appeared to
forget that in the City of London there were no etipen-
diary magistrates, but men connected with business who
discharged magisterial functions ; and he asked why the
aldermen of London should possess greater magiste-
rial powers than the county gentlemen outside the
Central Criminal Court district. He condemned the
principle of the bill, as dangerous to public liberty,
and said that the present system in England was
as near to perfection as it could well be, and
he called on the house to preserve it. He sug-
gested that the bill should be postponed till next session.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS supported the continuance of
the grand jury system. He considered that a bill of this
kind should be brought in under the responsibility of
Government, and not that of a private member. fie
should oppose the bill.
Mr. COBBETr opposed the bill from its mischievous
tendency. The objections to the grand jury system in
the metropolitan district applied with greater force to
the country districts, and be looked upon this bill as in-
troducing the thin end of the wedge to destroy an institu-
tion that had been found to protect the rights and liber-
ties of the people. He objected to the power proposed
by the bill to be given to :•tipendiary magistrates, whom
Mr. Arnold had described in a pamphlet as a "depend-
ent body," in connection with the Home Secretary.
The hon. gentleman defended the present grand jury
system, and said that he cordially agreed with Mr. Jus-
tine Willes's recent remarks, from the bench, in favour
of its continuance.
Mr. M. T. BAINES said that he thought the bill a
very good one in principle, and many of the objections
raised against it might be remedied by the committee.
He did not believe it would have the effect of subvert-
ing the grand jury system throughout the country. lie
hoped the consideration of the clauses would be allowed
to be proceeded with.
Mr. J. LOCKE (Soutle,eark), opposed the bill.
Mr. BRISCOE considered the arguments against the
bill irresistible.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said that the object
of the bill was to provide that where a case had under-
gone the most perfect preliminary investigation, there
should be no further delay b 7 referring it to a grand
jury, and he thought that that principle would be pro-
ductive of great advantage.
Mr. HENLEY disliked the measure, and he had
heard nothing to disabuse his mind that if it were
adopted for the metropolitan district it would not be t
tended to the whole of the country. He was unwilling
to see the grand jury system abolished. •
The committee then divided. The numbers were—
For the motion BO
Against it
Majority
On the motion that clause 1 stand part of the bill,
Mr. M'MALION said that by the clause as it stood
no grand jury could hereafter be assembled in the Cen-
tral Criminal Court.
A lengthened discussion ensued, which lasted till 10
minutes to 4 o'clock, when, by the forms of the house,
the Chairman reported progress.
APPREHENSION OF TREDRE—LIIIBETLI
ELECTION.

The SERGEANT-AT-ARMS reported that Tredre, a wit.
ness in the Lambeth election cage, was in his custody.
On the motion of Mr. INGHAM, the Sergeant-a`-
Arms was ordered to take Tredre to and from the corn•
mittee as often as the committee required his attend.
anee. _ _ _ .

The house then suspended its sittings.
The house resumed at 6 o'clock.
MAYO ELECTION PETITION.

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD reported from the select com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the petition complak-
log of the return of Mr. Moore, that G. H. Moore, Big.,
wai not duty elected to serve as a knight of the shire for
the present Parliament ; that the said election, as far as
regarded the said G. H. Moore, was a void election. The
committee also agreed to a resolution to the effect that
G. H. Moore was, by his agents, gailty of ut.due influ-
ence ; that undue influence and spiritnal intimidation
prevailed to a great extent, that the Rev. P. Conway
and Luke Ryan made themselves s, prominent and ac-
tive in this respect that the committee felt it to be their
du y to report their conduct to the house, leaving it to
rthe house to tile such steps as it might deem necessary ;
that it did not appear to the committee that Mr. Moore
sanctioned or was c:ignisaut of such undue influence or
spiritual intimidation.
SCHOLEFIELD moved that the evidence be laid
on the table of the house, which was agreed to.
BURY ST. EDMUND'S ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. HARDY brought up the report of the commit-
tee, which stated that J. A, Hardcastle, Esq., was duly
elected to serve as a burgess in the present Parliament.
The committee came to a resolution to the effect that
one voter, J. W. Clark, paid one the sum of 151. 1,,r
voting ; that a voter was detained in a drunken state,
and that he was taken out in a drunken state to vote,
but that it was not shown by whom the expenses were
paid ; that the said J. W. Clark was not produced to
rebut the evidence respecting him ; that the committee
were not satisfied that he had no such authority as would
justify them in declaring the seat to be vacant.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS.

Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that on Friday nex t
he would move for leave to bring in a bill to amend th
act of the Ist and 2d of Vie. c. 105, entitled, "An act
to remove doubts as to the validity of certain oaths,
ORDNANCE SURVEY.

On the motion of Sir D. NORREYS, the following re-
turn was ordered :—A. detailed report of the state of the
survey on the 12th day of June, 1857, showing-1. The
names of the parishes, either in England or Scotland, of
which the maps were completed on the 25-inch scale,
and were then ready for reduction, or publication, by
engraving, or any other copying process. The names of
parishes the maps of which were so far advanced that the
primary and secondary triangulation had been laid desire,
and the filling-in of detail was in progress, on the dhy
named. (If the maps of portions only of parishes were
completed, or were in the state referred to in No. 1, the
number of sheets so completed, or so far in progress, is
to be stated.)
EUROPEAN AND AUSTRALIAN MAIL
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) COMPANY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at
12 o'clock. Mr. CONINGHAM wished to ask the Secretary to
the Treasury what was the number of steam-vessels
PETITIONS. which the Post-office agreed with the European aNd
Several petitions were presented by Mr. Gladstone and
other hon. members against the Marriage and Divorce
Australian Mail Company ail should be placed on the line
from Australia to Suez I Was propersecurity taken b
Bill ; against the Paper Duty ; against the propleel
the Post-office before the line was opened that the proy.
Toll on Chelsea new Bridge.
per number of vessels were placed on the station t Did
GRAND JURIES (METROPOLITAN POLICE the number of vessels agreed upon provide against a
DISTRICT) BILL. contingency or loss, or break down, of one or more of
The house went into committee on this bide the vessels?
Mr. BOWYER moved that the chairman do leave the Mr. WILSON said the contract provided that the
chair. He wale the motion because the tell proposed to company were to have six vessels engaged in the service.
abrogate a part of the British constitution. Any defects in He believed they had the full number engaged. But the
the working of thepresent system should be remedied and Oneida was lost, and the full penalty was enforced for the
not destroyed, as was proposed by this bill. He was non-perfortnance of that particular voyage. With regard
surprised to find a bill of this kind emanating from the to the other voyages, the service was performed in a
Reader it bad, and he expressed an opinion that the manner satisfactory to the Post-office ; and when the
hon. and learned gentleman now regretted what he had Oneida broke down another vessel was put in her place.
done. Of all places London was the list where the
INDIAN AFFAIRS.
provisions of such a bill should be applied, from the pro-
Mr,. DISRAELI—I wish to put a question to her Ma
bability of political eases arising inwhich the intervention of
juries was valuable with reference to therightsandliberties jesty s Government on the present state of affairs is In-
of the people. Tnehon. and !earnedgentlernan referred to dia, as to whether an opportunity will be given, and
Blackstone, relative to juries, and said that if he were which will be the most convenient opportunity for her
alive, and in that house, there is very little doubt what Majesty's Government, to the house to express some
course he would take with reference to this Li I. The
opinion on this, the most considerable event that has
inconvenience, which individuals suffered in serving on
grand juriee, or in having g
to o before them, ought not taken place in India for many years. It is now
to be considered in a Case of this kind, and made nearly a fortnight since I addressed an inquiry to the
an excuae for introducing the thin edge of the Government, when the first news of the occurrence
wedge (if not the thick end alas) for the destrue• of these events arrived, and that in the absence of the
tion of this valuable institution. The hon. and leave ed
gentleman then referred to many of the provisions of the noble lord. The main object of my inquiring was first
bill, and said that much inconvenience would arise under of all to know what measures bad been taken by a e
it as at present existed, aed he contended that the present Government under the disastrous circumstances whir h
grand jury system coul I be improved so as to meet the
from
requiremente of the age, e considered it was import had occurred and my second object was to ascertain
H
ant, especially in London, that the grand jury system generally '
the Government what they believed to
should be continued, because it familiarised and identi- be the cause of these events. That was a fortnight ago.
fled the trading elkageB with the aiministration of the The house was then told that the Governor-General of
criminal law of the country, and it also protected the India wrote home in high spirits, and certainly the house
liberties of the subject, especially in political charges
He considered the bill fraught with Eo much dapger to was allowed to infer that the state of affairs was not ~f
• ty and the constitution of the country, that he someso serious a charaeter as, I believe, it would be tho
could not consent to its proceeding further this session. greatest want of prudence on our part now to doubt.
Sir F. THESIGER complained of the course now We now have had news of the greatest importance come
taken, because when he introduced the bill. on a fresh muriicated to us through the electric telegraph, and what
explanation of its details, no objections were raised to it. I now wish to know is whether the despatches received
It also passed a second reading opposition to its by the Government would enable
1 tiple and the first time he receivedwi. any. intimation
pr n , tails or any authoritative information to the house as to
of opposition to its details was on toe night when the
committee was named. The hon. and learned gentle- the present position of affairs in Inlia. (hear, hear.) I
main stated that he did not regret the introduction of should also like to know from the noble I.ird who the •
the bill, and he assured the house that he had intro- he will assist us in giving the earliest opportunity of
dueed it from a belief that the change he expressing the views of the house on the
causes and pro
proposed was necessary. Evidence of the greatest ine bable consequences of the resent state of affairs in India?
portance wee given on the subject before the Statute
Some observations were made the other evening on the
Law Commission, and before a committee of that house,
relative to the 'abolition of grand juries in the me:ro- subject of the Indian budget with a view to its being
peliten poiice district, and it was on the reconsmsnda- brought for ward without loss of time. If her Majesty's
tion of the cornmissien and the committee that be bad i Government brought forward that budget it would be a
based this measure, which bad received the sanction of I legitimate opportunity for the house dispassionately to
thi; Government. The hon, and leareed .
enthinan disc • the affairs of India Of course it was open to
then entered into the constitution of grand juries,
the necessity that now existed for their abolition in the
and 1 h-i-m- -ties:any other member of' the house, on the motion for
*purse of which he used the same arguments tie did on I going into committee of supply, to call the attention of

the house to the state of affairs in India. But there

were other important motions connected with the Per-

sian and Chinese wars, to be discussed, and it would be
highly inconvenient if these were discussed in connexion
with the present question. What' should l'ke to know,
therefore, from the noble lord is whether he will favour

the house with what be believes to be the most author'.

tative information respecting the present position of In-
dian affairs ; and secondly, I shall be glad to hear from
him what steps Government are prepared to adopt unier
the circumstances ; and lastly, I should like to hear
from him whether he will permit the Indian budget to
be brought forward on Friday, so as to give the House

of Commons an opportunity of expressing an opinion on

the present serious position of affairs in India ? -
Lord PALMERSTON—Her Majesty's Government
have received despatches of which the substance has been

communicated by the electric telegraph from Marseilles.
I believe there are other despatehes coming by South

ampton which may or may not contain further informa-

tion as to these events, which was given in the despatch
communicated by telegraph ; and, speaking generally, I

should saythat the information which the Government

is in possession of does not vary from that which is pub•
lishel from private sources in the ordinary channels of

information. Her Majesty's Government will, without

any unnecessary delay, lay on the table of the house such
portions of the correspondence as they think will be suffi
cient to give the house the fullest information on the
subject of these events,. With regard to the question of
the right hon. gentleman in respect to the opportunity of
discuising this very important matter, of course it is

very natural that there should be a desire on the part of
members of expressing their opinions ; but, I submit, it
would be better they should first see the papers. These
papers may be considered full, or not full enough, of in-
formation ; but it would not be in accordance with the
practice of Parliament to originate a discussion pending
the production of papers which will be laid on the table
to-morrow—(as was understood.) With regard to a dis-
cussion on Friday, I think the right hon. gentleman—at
least, I think, the hon, members—will find that they
will not have the papers long enough in their hands to
enable them to have a discussion on Friday. (Hear.)
But her Majesty's Government have no wish to put off
the discussion longer than the time necessary for giving
fall information on the subject. That shall be done with-
out loss of time, and then it will be for the right hon.
gentleman to choose his own time for bringing the sub-
ject before the house.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to know how far back the
papers to be presented by the noble lord would go? The
house ought to be in possession of any despatch which
would give information as to the accounts which her
Majesty's Government received as to the state of affairs
in India before the present events took place, and as to
the causes that led to the Persian and Chinese wars.
These were important papers,.without which the house
could not form an opinion, and he did not wish to preci-
pitate a discussion without these documents. If, there-
fore, he delayed bringing the question before the house,
it was because he understood from the Qravernment that
the house should be put in possession of papers so far
back as that they should know what led to the wars with
Persia and China.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government would
present the papers which they thought best calculated to
put the house in possession of the facts, and if the right
hon. gentleman thought them insufficient, it would be
competent to bring the whole susject before the house.
Lord J. RUSSELL—There is one point on which I
think the house feel more anxious than as to any discus.
sion. My noble friend stated last night what the Govern-
ment were about to do in consequence of the intelligence
they-received from India. That statement was general
aud I do not wonder at it because it was founded on a'
telegraphic message. But now that the Government are
in receipt of the despatch, I confess I am anreious to hear
from my noble friend a more satisfactory and a fuller
statement of the measures taken by the Government. I
hope to hear from my noble friend that the reinforcements
sent ont will be sufficient, and that he will make a full
statement of what the Government mean to do under
the circumstances.
Lord PALMERSTON—The best answer I can give
to my noble friend is this, that her Majesty's Govern-
ment had, before the receipt of the despatches which ar-
rived yesterday, made arrangements for sending large re•
inforcements to India, and that those reinforcements are
rather greater than what Lord Canning asks for. (Hears)
Of course the house will not expect me to enter into
details of the regiments at the stations. But speaking
generally, I should say that, though her Majesty's Go-
vernment feel no apprehension or alarm as to the ulti-
mate result of these unfortunate events, yet they think
it to be their duty to act as if there were reason for ap-
prehension, and to leave nothing undone which is within
the reach of administrative functions, in order to provide
for the emergency which has occurred in India. '
Sir J. WALSH. said that a report prevailed that for
some time past Gen. Anson bad written home, making
strong representations as to the existence of disaffection
in the Bengal army. He therefore wished to know whe-
ther the papers to be hid before Parliament! would con
tain full extracts from the correspondence of Gen. Anson.
Mr. MANGLES said he would answer that question
for the noble lord. He bad heard the rumour to which
the hon. baronet referred, and in reply to it said he had
never seen a single line is the shape of an official warning
from Gen. Anson. He made more special inquiry on the
subject to-day at the India House, and he could only say
that they bad not received a single word of notice from
Gen. Anson on the subject of these late occurrences.
Mr. CHEETHAM asked when the noble lord would
give a day for the renewal of the debate on the growth
of cotton in India
It Lord PALMERSTON said he was aware of the im-
p ertance of that sotject to the manufacturing interest,
bat he doubted whether in the present state of Indian
affairs that debate could be confined to cotton. He
should be willing to give him the morning of Tuesday
next, but he thought it would be better to postpone the
subject till after the debate which the right hon. gentle
man opposite proposed to introduce.
Sir DE L. EVANS said that the House of Commons
had a duty to perform as well as the Government, and
he thought the noble lord should say something more de.
finite re,pecting the day for discussing this subject.
In reply to Lord J. MANNERS,
Mr. V. SMITH said that General Anson did not com-
municate with the Government, but with the Court of
Directors. If General Anson felt it his duty to make
any representation as to the state of the army in India,
his course would be, as the military member of the
council, to put a minute of his opinion on record, which
would be transmitted to the Court of Directors. He
(Mr. V. Smith) was not aware of any communication
from General Anson which stated that there was any
such disaffection in the Bengal army as bad been
alluded to.
Sir J. WALSH said there was some misapprehension
as to the answer already given by the President of the
Board of Control. He begged to ask again whether any
department had received a communication from General
Anson calling the attention of the Government to the
disaffection in the Bengal army?
Mr. V. SMITH repeated that no such communication
had been received.
Capt, DUNCOMBE asked if there had been any
despatch to that effect from Sir W. Gomm
Mr. V. SMITH believed not, but he was not at the
Board of Control when that officer was Commander-in-
Chief.

Sir C. WOOD could state that no such communica-
tion had been received while he was President of the

Board,