The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-05 00:00:00

•

expectation that the proopeqt of the' payment of intercstiin
six months would raise the cftireatioti of t±chequer bills
when the present diecouraa n 4tat'fi of the money market
would haVe been dissipated, and when that improvement
had taken place they would not hear that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had the mortification to acknow-
ledge that a large amount of Exchequer bills had
been sent in for lieyitient at a time when it was inconve-
nient to the State to pay them. lie might state, on the part
of capitalists generally, that there was a repugnance to
sending in Excheqiier bills lot• i)ayment at a profit of a few
shillings, when doing so might be inconvenient to the Go-
vernment.

the policy of the British Administration in aiding and en-
couraging those proceedings. He detailed -at -considerable
length thb iiiidtioits Oecal eiteete of the alieration of duties
and other measures adopted by Sardinia since the hrinexa-
tion. The injury reacted upon British commerce, and yet
more on that of other nations. The honourable gentle.
man then referred to the attack upon the kingdom of
the Two Sicilies, and the Issue of that attack ; the manner
which the King of Sardinia had fulfilled the solemn obliga-
tions into whiCh hd had.entered, and to the more important
question of what was then the concoct a the noble lord.
The King of Naples occupied a strong position on the Vol-
turno, and all the correspondence proved that, were it not
for the assistance given to General Garibaldi by the Pied •
montese, in his attack upon him, the King could have put
down insurrection. They had it on the authority of news-
paper correspondence of the 10th September, that Garibaldi
had only 100 Neapolitans in his service fit to bear arms be-
fore he was joined by the Piedmontese, and the same organ
observed that the revolution was made for, and not by, the
Neapolitans. After the battle of the Volturno Gen. Gari-
baldi telegraphed to King Victor Emmanuel for 14,000
men. Gem Garibaldi claimed the victory,thotigh it amounted
only to the capture of two cannons, and, if a victory, was
gained by foreigners. It was an important question, how.
ever, who it was that captured those cannons. Through
the courtesy of the Board of Admiralty, he had received a
letter containing the report of Commander Forbes with re-
ference to the statement that those cannons had been cap-
tured by English seamen of H.M.S. Renown. It appeared
that the demand for assistance first arose to the English
Garibaldians when the cannons were 200 yards from Santa
Maria. The English seamen rushed to the spot at the call,
and dragged the guns into Santa Maria. (Cheers.) The
British Minister had discovered the strongest Piedmontese
tendencies, but his language was not objectionable. Indeed,
it was rather creditable, but very different was that of the
British Minister at home. The peasantry of Sicily having
taken up arms in defenceof their Sovereign, the noble lord
asked, in one of his despatches with reference to the bar-
barous proclamation of General Cialdini, whether " tae
peasantry had taken up arms for good reasons." Now that
question admitted of a simple answer, which was this,
that the arms were taken up by foreigners, and not by
native Sicilians. The noble lord declared in another place
" that the Italian revolution had been conducted with sin-
gular temper and forbearance." (Loud cheers from the
Government side.) That singular temper and forbearance
would not bear the reports which had reached this country
on the subject ; one English gentleman tolling them, for
example, that 30 villages in the Abruzzi had been burned
to the ground, and another that in Sicily the nuns had been
forced to fly from the convents before the Sardinians. M.
Alexandre Dumas, who held an official appointment in Italy
under Garibaldi, and a paper called the Remade, also gave
evidence on that question extremely unfavourable to the
wonderful temper and forbearance of the Italian revolution.
(Conservative cheers.) The ferocious despatch of General
Pinelli, which had excited so much horror in Europe, was
supposed to be answered by the allegation that hehad been
dismissed by the Piedmontese Government. But his dis-
missal did not take place until three months after the issue
of that despatch, and he was not idle in the interim. In a
single village ho shot 123 persons within a fortnight after
the date of the proclamation. By the brigade under his
orders, at another village, where one house streamed with
blood and was riddled with balls, 17 prisoners were imme-
diately shot; and at Cumano, where 150 prisoners were
taken, 50 were instantly shot, the rest consigned to prison,
and some of them subsequently sentenced to death. At
another loyal village, where some of the peasantry had been
seized and sentenced to be shot, the pastor ventured to in-
tercede for them on the ground that they were ignorant
persons, who had never heard of Victor Emmanuel, and
only knew Francis 11. The colonel did not oven deign to
reply to that appeal, but ordered the pastor to be shot with
the others—an order that was carried out within the next
hour. He (Mr. Hennessy) had thought it right to call at-
tention to these facts because the proclamation was alluded
to in the noble lord's despatches, though the house was, he
feared, not aware of the real facts. The noble lord also
referred in the despatches to the late elections in Italy, but
as that ground had been already so well travelled over in
the other house of Parliament, he would not do more than
present a few figures in order to enable the house to judge
of the nature of these elections. Taking the elections in
Naples, it was extraordinary to find how few persons voted
out of large populations in Southern Italy. Liberio Ro-
mano, now Minister at Naples, received only 119 votes.
Castellano, another Piedmontese Minister in Southern
Italy, 99 votes. Rossi only 60 votes, and Salecette only 60
also. ln places with a population of 100,000, not more than
119 persons voted for the members to be sent to the Pied-
montese Parliament. At Prancenga, a populous place, the
Piedmontese , fficials inscribed only 1,213 electors on the
list, a very small proportion, but of that small number only
68 voted. At Milan the total number of voters was 234, and
at Florence 144. Most members of that house knew Flo-
rence, it was a beautiful and formerly a gay and busy city.
Its beauty remained, but its gaiety had.departed ; when he
was last there it was gloomy, deserted, and miserable, under
Piedmontese rule. Besides this, the way in which the
returns were dealt with by the Government were rather
remarkable. Signor Saffi, ono of the professors at Oxford,
went to Italy, and was returned as a member of the Par-
liament for one place by 151 out of 162 votes. But Signor
Sall was a Republican, and Count Cavour is just now
rather afraid of Republicans, though he has used them as
his tools before. The Piedmontese official in charge of the
election was, therefore, directed to institute a " scrutiny,"
and that "scrutiny" resulted in his striking off 121 out of
151 votes, and so Signor Saffi was unseated. Another point
that had been raised was, why the King of Naples did not
defend Naples, or, leaving it, retire to Sicily ? He had been
taunted by the noble lord for not doing so.—(Lord J. Russell
—I never,said so.) He was glad to hear the noble lord's dis-
claimer; but if the noble lord did not other members of the
Government did, or at least members on the opposite side, and
it was known the press of this country had done so. He would
tell the house why the King had not defended Naples or
gone to Sicily. It was because the noble lord had in de-
spatches, some of which were net before the house, but of
the contents of which he (Mr. Hennessy) was aware, had
actually interfered to prevent the King of Naples from mak-
ing any attempt either to regain Sicily or to defend Naples.
To those despatches Liberio Romano, then Minister of the
King of Naples—but- in the pay of Piedmont, and the
greatest traitor in Europe—referred, when the King was
deliberating whether he should defend Naples or not; and
it was the tone of these despatches, together with the large
British fleet which then lay in the Bay of Naples, which in
all probability prevented that defence from being made. He
said, then, that he had proved his case against the noble
lord who proposed non- intervention, but who had again
and again actually interfered in the affairs of Italy.
Mr. LAYARI) trusted the house would not think he
was trespassing on their indulgence if he addressed them
for a short time; but he had special reasons for doing so.
He took a deep interest in the cause of Italy, and although
ho knew somewhat more about it than the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down, he promised them he would not do.
Lain the house at such length as he had. It should be with
a policy in accordance with the opinions of the country. He
was ready to divide the house upon the question. lie did
not want to make it a party question. Upon those grounds
and the general sympathy which ho had for Italy, he should
like to press the motion. He did not mean to say anythinLr
disparaging to the Popo ; he believed him to be a good man;
but there was a feeling on the Continent that there was a
strong prejudice in this, country against the Pope. Now,
he denied that. He had no prejudice himself against the
Popo. On the contrary, he wished to see the Pope inde-
pendent; but there was no man of great and high position
in Europe who was not averse to the spiritual and temporal
power being united in therPope.
Mr. HENNESSY—Zechi, the greatest astronomer in
Europe, was favourable to the union of the temporal and
spiritual power in the Pope. .

Mr, CAYLEY approved of the resolutions, and said one
effect of them would be that bankers would be able to ex-
tend more accommodation to their customers.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the resolutions proposed to
give the holders of Exchequer bills the right to receive their
money at the end of the year. Would there be a corres-
ponding right on the part 31 the Treasury to call in the bills
at the expiration of the year, supposing the holders of the

bills did not want to get their money ? If the bills might
be hoarded the Government might be inconvenienced by
the payment at one time of a large amount for taxes.
Although it might be true that these bills were now held in
London, and that the customs duties paid in the port of
London were not very large, yet when they could be paid in
for duties they might and probably would be held to some
extent in Liverpool.
Mr. T. HANK EY thought that the holders of Exchequer

bills had a right to expect some benefit at the hands of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, for he did not believe any
Chancellor of the Exchequer had done so much to disparage
this class of security as had the right hon. gentleman who
now filled that office. Since he reduced the rate of interest
to a penny a day they had never held the place which they
were formerly accustomed to hold as one of the most desir-

able securities a banker could hold. It was true that at the
end of a year the holder might demand payment, but prac-
tically that was always met by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer raising the rate of interest. Suppose a large amount
of these bills were sent in for payment, or for duties, how
could they be paid out of the consolidated fund ? In some
way or other they must be met out of the supplies, or by a
loan. He agreed with the hon. member for Evesham that
these bills ought not to be added to the funded debt with-
out the consent of the house, and he hoped his hon. friend
would not withdraw his resolution. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer said that Exchequer bills could always be kept
up by their being received in payment of duties, but he
thought the only legitimate way of keeping up these bills

was by varying the interest from time to time. If the bills
were not paid in for duties, what was to become of them ?
He should recommend that the interest should be paid at
the Bank of England, so as to prevent the inconvenience of
persons having to go to the West-end for it. That was the
favourite plan of the late Mr. Masterman, and it was fre-
quently urged by him upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
He hoped, too, that the interest would be made payable per
annum instead of de die in diem. There was no other se-
curity where the interest was not an annual one, and it was

•
just as easily calculated that way as per day. The result
of the present plan was to compel the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, whenever he did raise the rate of interest, to
raise it by a larger sum than he might otherwise have de-
sired. The smallest increase was a farthing a-day, which
would be 7s. 6d. per year ; whereas an increase of 2s. or 3s.
would probably have been sufficient for his purpose.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said there was no doubt that
Exchequer bils bad received a great blow from the sudden
change in the rate of interest; but not greater than must
be given to them by secret operations on the part of the
Chancellor of the Exithequer. Until they declared that
all transactions in Exchequer bills must take place in the
light of day, they would do nothing. The late Mr. Goul-
burn had shown that by the action of the government
upon the Exchequer bill market; no less than seven mil-
lions of Exchequer bills had been converted into funded
debt, and that without the knowledge of the House of
Commons. By the last operations of the kind, £383,000 of
Exchequer bills had been funded at the very high rate of 99i;
and another sum, £791,000 at 97i. He trusted that the right
hon. gentleman would give same pledgo that he would
deal with the subject in the course of the present session.
If he would, he (Sir H. Willoughby) should be delighted
to withdraw the resolution of which he had given notice.
During the four years 1838-412 the funded debt had
been increased through the medium of consolidated fund
bills, by the sum of £600,000, £500,000, another £500,000
and £600,000 ; and the House of Commons had all the while
been in the ludicrous position of knowing nothing whatever

of the transaction. What had taken place in 1838-41
might just as easily occur in 1861-4, and he repeated there-
fore that they would do nothing unless they put an end to
the possibility of such proceedings. He thought the daily
interest was convenient, and that it would be desirable to
retain it.

Mr. GLYN certainly agreed with everything that had
fallen from the hon. baronet on the subject of concealed
operations in the Exchequer bill market. As to the calcu-
lation of interest, he thought it would be just as easy to
compute it per annum as per diem. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer this year introduced two measures—the present
one and that for abridging the period of closing the Bank
books previous to the payment of dividends—both of which
he considered to be most material practical reforms as re-
garded the public debt of this country. (Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had to
express his great gratification at the general approval of the
substance of those resolutions. In reply to his hon. friend
the member for Lambeth, he had to repeat what he had
stated on a former evening—that he intended to introduce
a bill having for its object to give effect to many of the most
important recommendations of the Public Moneys Commit-
tee. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of the
relative merits of the per diem and the per annum calcula-
tions of interest in the case of Exchequer bills, he was open
to conviction. (Hear, and a laugh.) lie had found it diffi-
cult to, ascertain what the general wish was. He believed
that this was the first time the question had been introduced
into thiat helm, and perhaps the effect of its having been
introdticed there might be•to place him in possession of the
general feeling. There could be no difficulty in making
provision in the bill for altering the mode of computation,
if such should be thought desirable. (Hear, hear.)
The general effect of the changes which he was about
to make would be that Exchequer bills would be capable of
liquidation through the medium of taxes in six months ;
capable of liquidation for money at the end of 12 ; and that,
commencing another year, a new term would commence
the same as the former. (Hear.) An hon. member had asked
him whether at the end of 12 months there would be a cor-
responding option on the part of the Government to call
them in. Ile did not propose to include in the bill any pro-
position of that kind, With respect to any apprehended in-
convenience from the payment of roven'io by Exchequer
bills, he would observe that there would be a threefold
issue. There would be a power of re-issue by arrangement
with the Bank of England, or otherwise ; there would be a
power to allow the bill to become extinct if public conve-
nience allowed of that course; an i there would be a power
of keeping it afloat by raising the rate of interest. His
hon. friend the meml),r for Greenwich (Allerman S de-
mons) had [Willed to the injury done in 1815 by reducing
the rate of interest, and said that a great amount was at
that time presented for payment. It was true that the
effect of reducing the rate of interest from lid. a day to ld.
produced a diminution out of all proportion to what one
would have supposed ; but at the same time it did not lead
to the presentation of a single bill for payment. It was on
the 15th September the interest on the March bills was re-
duced; and in March not one bill was presented for pay-
ment. He granted that in June £3,000,000 were presented,
but then a most important change in the money-market
had taken place between March and June. That period had
been marked not only by a progressive decline in Exche-
quer bills, but by an alteration in the value of other secu-
rities, and among other things by an alteration in the rate
of dis Count in the Bank. The truth was that this was a
long history, and its whole exposition would require a
great deal of detail. The usual amount of the unfunded
debt before 1838 was from £24,000,000 to £30,009,000 of
Exchequer b ills. It was after 1838 that the greatest re-
duction took place. It was reduced from £4,000,000 in
1839 to £18,000,000 in 1812; and it continued at about
£18,000,000 till 18.53. It wa3 then for the moment reduced
by the presentation of £3,000,000 for payment. These were
re-issued in 18b4, and it was a fact that no great change
took place in the amount of Exchequer bills between 1812
and the close of the Russian war. The hon. baronet (Sir
H. Willoughby) asked him, was it his intention to bring in
a bill to Lake away the powers, now vested in the National
Debt Commissioners, of funding these bills to which he had
referred ? He could not give any positive pledge on that
point, but he was still entirely of the opinion which he had
expressed many years—namely, that those powers ought to
be taken away.
The first, second, and third resolutions were then
agreed to.

Mr. LAYARD—Zechi was a Jesuit. (Laughter,) Ho
knew not from what source the hon. gentleman got his
information—he knew not whether the hon. gentleman
spoke Italian; but this ho knew, that thorn seemed to exist
great ignorance in the minds of some hon. gentlemen re-
specting the state and government of the people in the
Papal States. He was sorry to see that the hon. gentleman
the member for Dungarvan was not in his place. That hon.
gentleman was very eloquent, and had been in Italy at the
same time he (Mr. Layard) was there, and he had written
a book on Italy ; but he must say that the hon. gentleman,
with all his eloquence, had not shown much knowledge in
his book of the state of feeling in Rome. The hon. gentle-
man had spoken in his book of the Castle of San Michello ;
but he (Mr. Layard) could state to the house that, to his
knowledge, there had been an artist of great celebrity con-
fined in that castle, and subjected to the greatest mortifica-
tions for his political opinions. The hon. gentleman here
referred to official documents and published works, show-
ing that strong prejudices were enccuraged in the minds
of the Christian population in Rome against Jews and
other denominations not Christian, and contended that the
Sardinians were justified in making ingress in the Papal
States. What, he asked, happened at Bologna ? Why,
in one morning 126 persons accused of political offences
were shot by the Austrian power. It might be said that
the Pope was not responsible for those excesses ; but he
would tell the house how the Pope was responsible. In
the case of shooting a boy who was under legal age by
the Austrians, the Pope gave the Austrian general who
allowed the act absolution. The hon. gentleman then
proceeded to show that the accused prisoners had not had a
fair and impartial trial. Their trial was by Germans, and
the proceedings were carried on in the German language.
He then referred to the massacres at Perugia, and while he
did not attempt to defend them, ho must say that great
provocation had been given to cause them. There had been
also great atrocities committed in other places, and he
granted by both sides—by Sardinians as well as by the
Pope's troops. The hon. gentleman opposite would perhaps
say he did not believe his statements, but he might in re-
turn say, whether the hon. gentleman did or did not, he did
not believe the hon. gentleman's assertions. The popula-
tion in the Papal States, finding their government intole-
rable, had cast it off. The hon. member had spoken of the
state of trade in these dominions. He (Mr. Layard) well
remembered Ferrara and the Legations being perfect de.
serts. Last year, when there, he had found a complete
change. Men could breathe freely, and industry was im-
proying everywhere. He found Bologna the centre of rail.-1

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he pro-
posed to transpose the fourth and fifth resolutions, and to
alter somewhat the language of both. What stood as the
fifth resolution would stand as the fourth, and he proposed
to make it read as follows :—" That during the last six
months of each year during which such bills shall have
currency by law such Exchequer bills shall be receivable
for duties granted to her Majesty."
The resolution as amended was agreed to.
The last resolution, altered as follos s, was also agreed
to : —" That when such Exchequer bills shall be paid off or
received for duties, the Commissioners of her Majesty's
Treasury may issue a like amount of Exchequer bills to re-
place them."

The resolutions were ordered to be reported, and the
house resumed.

ITALIAN POLICY OF TIIE GOVERNMENT.
On the motion that the house go into committee of

supply,
Mr. HENNESSY called attention to the active interfer-
ence of •her Majesty's Foreign Secretary in promoting Pied-
montese policy, and to its effects. Adverting to the former
conduct, of Lord J. Russell, whom he charged with a terror
of Austria and a morbid desire for interfering in Italy, he
accused the noble lord of continuing in the same unhappy
course; still truckling to Austria and imprudently interfer-
ing in Italy. He entered at length into the proceedings of
Piedmont, all of which, both politically and financially,
wero adverse to good government, and warmly reprobated

SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1861.

ways, and the trade increasing. Mr. rhtweyi writing from
the spot, stated that as soon as Lombardy Was iifineied to
Piedmont, commerce would extend, the more especially
when the Austrian tariff was superseded. It now appeared
that the artic!ei tcar,t, in request in that portion of Italy,
under the new tariff, were a.ltielet of British commerce.
While Lombardy bad thus improved, the dothltiong of the
Pope presented a totally different spectacle. There were
only two railways, one from Rome to Civita Vecchia, and
the other from Rome to Frascati ; and as to the security
enjoyed on the latter railway, it appeared that the first train
which ran had been stopped by brigands, and the passen-
gers and baggage ransacked. If they turned to Naples,
there the prisons were filled with men who were kept in
ignorance of the offences for which they were incarce-
rated. It was said that some sympathy should be shown
for a young king who had nothing left him but the
courage of despair. But was no sympathy due to the tens
of thousands of unhapi y people who had been victims to
his tyrannical Government. He would not dwell upon
the state of Venice and Venetia, but even here it appeared
that two young girls accused of insulting the Austrian flag
had been flogged, and the authorities of the place threa-
tened with the bastinado. A proclamation was issued
against the population of Mantua, and political enmity fol-
lowed a young lady, whose misfortune it was to encroach
upon supposed taste by wearing garments more copious than
had been the fashion. (Laughter.) The times for reforms,
then, had gone by. The secret history of 1848 would no
doubt be made known, and although the Pope would turn
out to be innocent, he (Mr. Layard) believed that evil coun-
cillors about him had aroused the indignation of the popu-
lation. Papal promises had been unfulfilled, even in the
minutest details. The Popo had promised that a municipal
body should be elected, but its election was hampered la
the condition that the electors should first have their good
political conduct certified. The hon. member was aware
that a man could not go into the Campagna without a cer-
tificate that he had taken the sacrament and had been to
Confession. Reform in Naples, then, was out of the ques-
tion under such a system. The worst thing ever uttered
by a Government_ fell from the lips of Baron Poerio
upon the occasion of the King having stated his will-
ingness to grant a Constitution, " Government, said Baron
Poerio, is founded on tradition. The tradition of the
Neapolitan Government is perjury. (Hear, hear.) The
King will show his legitimacy of descent by perjury. A
man cannot perjure himself before he has taken an oath."
Naples, by its atrocious and stupid conduct, which spared
neither friend nor foe, had left herself without a friend
on whom it could trust. It was impossible to hope for re-
form in Venetia under such a state of things. What were
the two concessions which must precede reform ? The aboli-
tion of ecclesiastical privileges and ecclesiastical orders,
and the giving back of the land to the tillers by taking it
away from those who bad reduced it to a desert. Such
concession he understood could not,be made. It was said
that civilians preponderated in numbers over ecclesiastics,
but the courts of appeal were filled with ecclesiastical
judges, who enjoyed ecclesiastical protection, and in those
courts justice could be bought and sold. (Hear.) Natu-
rally enough the Italian people scouted the idea of an Ita-
lian Confederation after the peace of Villafranca. Not a
potentate remained in Italy unsupported by Austrian bayo-
nets. (Hear, hear.) 'Where would the contemptible Dukes
of Tuscany and Modena have been but for Austrian bayo-
nets? (Laughter.) If these Dukes had flung themselves
on the people—on the Liberal party—they might have re-
mained. (Hoar, hear.) Victor Emmanuel was King of
Italy because he was not dependent on foreign bayonets.
He (Mr. Layard) believed that the king's ambition to form
a united Italy a commendable ambition, but he would not
have been King of Italy if the whole of the people had not
joined him. He took his stand from ;the first. He said,
" I will be an Italian king; I will place confidence limy sub-
jects; I will vivo them their liberties, and will rely on them."
(Hear.) When the Confederation was proposed and re-
jected, the whole of Italy rallied round Victor Emmanuel.
He (Mr. Layard) was in the north of Tuscany when the
voting to which the hon. member had alluded was going
on, and he did not believe that a single man had recorded
his vote except in accordance with his conscience. (Hear.)
Who, indeed, had been elected to the Parliament of Tus-
cany. Let anybody go through the historic roll of great
men in Tuscany, and it would be found that not a single
name of importance was absent from this Parliament. At
the head of that Parliament during the interregnum was
Baron Ricasoli, a man of whom hon. gentlemen opposite
might be proud, who had visited this country to become ac-
quainted with our latest inventions in agriculture, in order
that he might benefit his countrymen with them, and
against whom even his adversaries could not utter a word.
(Hear.) In the legations likewise men of the highest cha-
racter had been elected. No set of men could bo selected
who would more perfectly represent the feelings of the po-
pulations of Tuscany and the Legations. The most remark-
able fact was that the foremost men in this Italian move-
ment were irreproachable on the score of commercial
morality. There were no speculators on the Bourse to be
found among them, and not a finger of suspicion could be
pointed at them. Contrast such a state of things with the
normal state of Rome. There everything was bribery and
and corruption. If you wanted to see a public building or
to read a book in a public library, you must bribe. The
whole country teemed with bribery. Well, what was the re-
sult ? Throughout the whole of Italy the feeling in favour of
the King of Sardinia extended, and the movement was car-
ried by the men of the moderate party. The hon. member
spoke of intimidation being practised in Naples during the
time of the election, but he (Mr. Layard) could assert, on
the authority of the commander of the army, that at that
time there were not more than 22 soldiers in Naples. The
figures quoted by the hon. member were quite a mistake,
He thought the Government were quite justified in inter-
fering as they had done, and he believed the despatch of the
noble lord at the head of the Foreign office correctly ex-
pressed the feelings of the English people. Looking at the
state of Italy he was not surprised at the men who had
sprung up to guide the affairs of that country.
They had a great constitutional Minister in Cavour,
and Garibaldi had been found to direct the energies
of the people. Had Italy sho4n herself unequal to
her position ? On the contrary, she had shown herself
equal to the emergency of the occasion. Then the mode-
ration of the people of Italy was shown in the moderation
of her Press. Italy united could not be French—dis-
united, Italy would always be French. He believed that
the Italians would now know who were their true friends
—namely, the Government and the people of England.
Such being his opinion, he could not 1 ake the same view of
the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell) despatch in reference to
Venetia as that taken by the hon. gentleman who opened
the debate. The hon. gentleman said that he believed the
feelings of the people of this country were in favour of the
policy of the Government in reference.to Italy—namely the
moral support given to the Italians ; and he believed the
Italians would themselves feel that the best course which
could be adopted towards them would be for us to assist
them by moral force rather than by any other means, and
he busted we would continue to act in this way, to enable
Italy to assume that position which she was entitled to hold
in the scale of nations.

Sir G. BOWYER said that ono instance would show
the nature of the statements made by the hon, gentleman
who had just addressed the house. He had alluded to the
publication of a decree by an official at Rome. Well, it was
true that a very foolish person did issue the decree in ques-
tion, but the moment it was seen by the Roman Govern-
ment the decree was withdrawn, and the person who issued
it was dismissed from his office. (Hear.) As to the case re-
ferred to about brigands stopping a railway, why the whole
thing was a hoax, and was well known to be so. When Ga-
ribaldi invaded the main land, the King of Naples was ad-
vised by the English Government to throw himself into the
hands of the Liberal party.

Lord J. RUSSELL—No, no ; it was the year before.
Sir G. BOWYER—Rather than let Naples be bom-
barded the King left, and when Garibaldi entered the city
was in consternation. Yes, when Garibaldi entered with
his gang of pirates in their red shirts the citizens were in
consternation. What was his first act ? Why, he broke
into one of the churches, and introduced Gavazzi who
went through the ceremony of a mock Te Deum. (Hear.)
The policy of Napoleon which her Majesty's Government
were fostering would lead to a union between Russia and
France for the partition of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He de •
nounced that policy, therefore, as contrary to the interests
of England, and tending to foster the ambition of Napo-
leon, and aid him to get the frontier of the Rhine, and to
possess himself of Antwerp, which had been described as a
pistol pointed at England. By supporting Louis Napoleon
they were alienating from us and paralysing the other
Powers of Europe. The Emperor wanted the frontier of
the Rhine and Belgium, and was steadily progressing from
one step to another till this country would be obliged to go
to war with him, when we could no longer put a good face
upon it. (Hear, hear.) Then it would be too late.
Mr. E. JAMES moved the adjournment of the debate at
a quarter to 12 o'clock amidst loud cheers.

Lord PALMERSTON said that he was aware that many
hon. gentlemen wanted to speak, and that the debate might
therefore not be concluded that night, but if they did ad-
journ it, he hoped it would only be till to-morrow (this day)
—for it was desirable that the interval should not be great
between debates on a question of so much importance. He
hoped, also, that it might be concluded to-morrow night so
that Thursday could be devoted to supply. There were
other notices of importance standing on the paper, which he
hoped hon. gentlemen would withdraw, in order that this
might be accomplished.

THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY AND SIR B.
WALKER.

Sir J. PAICINGTON—Sir, I understand it to be the in-
tention of the Government to consent to the adjournment
of the debate on Italian affairs. Therefore, although lam
very sorry at this late hour to intrude on the house, I feel
compelled to ask the Government, and especially the noble
lord the Secretary to the Admiralty, to whom I have given
notice of ..ny intention, for an explanation on a matter
which closely concerns the mode of transacting public busi-
ness as between this house and the Ministers, and which
&on the nature of the circumstances I regard as very
urgent. I have reason to believe that it is not now too late
for the Government, if they should see fit, to 'change the
intention announced early in the evening. I allude to the
answer I received to a question which I put at the usual
hour—viz., whether or not I was to infer from the fact
that the Narcissus frigate had left, Spithead that the