The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-04 00:00:00

ruE suN

Bement or people of this country, we had become parties and
guarantees to Austria for her Italian possessions.
Mr. DISRAEL f—l beg the right hon. gentleman's par-
don for a moment. This is a point upon which there should
be no mistake, or false conclusions might be deduced. I
thought there could have been no mistake as to the state-
ment which I made, and which was this :—I asked, Would
the house believe that the Italian dominions of Austria were
guaranteed? Upon which the noble lord at the head of the
Government asked, By what Power ? I replied that there
was a secret treaty for guaranteeing the Italian dominions of
Austria to Austria, by France, but with the sanction, ap-
probation, advice, and at the instance of England ; but I
added that England herself was not a party to the secret
treaty.

Mr. GLADSTONE was glad to have elicited that explana-
tion, for the impression of many of these near him as to what
the right hon. gentleman had said was the same as his own
but, taking the matter as it now stood, if such a guarantee
had been given by France to Austria, with the entire con-
currence (the right hon. gentleman said) of this country, or
rather of this Governuient, he must say that in his opinion,
such a proceeding ought to be known to Parliament, for it
had an essential bearing on any course which the house might
think fit to pursue upon Italian affairs. (Hear.) As to
Naples, inasmuch as the Speech from the Throne had pro-
mised to lay papers before the house, he would not enter into
any details upon so interesting, so important, and so difficult
a question. With respect t 3 Persia, he had to say that
there was great reason to complain that uo promise or
expression on that question had been offered to the house.
He would not then cater into the merits of the case, but
he must say that no facts, as appearing to hint from
reports in the public journals, were an adequate justi-
fication of our proceedings with respect to that country.
When he (Mr. Gladstone) heard the Speech from the Tlirone,
and particularly that paragraph of it which related to the
sank and the currency, he was led to the belief that the Go-
vernment were going to introduce legislation upon this sub-
ject. He found also that the right hen. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was about to move for a select com-
mittee for the investigation of this important matter. (He
(Mr. Gladstone) would venture to express a hope that mea-
sures might be takes for guiding the deliberations of the com-
mittee, and giving to it a different plan ; and, in mentioning
this subject to the house, he would observe hat a very un-
fortunate change had taken place of late years with respect to
the dignity and efficiency of select committees in matters of
importance, (Hear, hear.) There were grave exceptions,
no doubt ; several most valuable reports had been drawn up,
which had been made the basis of legislation ; but often thero
had been introduced into these reports much that was of a
slovenly character, which had been apoligised for on the
ground of the lateness of the session—(hear)---or some other ,
unfortunate cause preventing due attenti• a to these matters.
He hoped that this would not nit the case with the commit-
tee his hon. friend was about to propose. Iu the wording,
however, of that clause of the Speech which relates to the
Bank of England, he thought that less caution had been used
than could be desired. He had a very strong opinion upon
that subject, for he thought that the privileges of the Bank
of England required provisions qtiite as much as they de-
served renewal. (Hear) The relations between the State
and the Bank of England were of very ancient date. They
were framed at a time when public faith did not exist, when
no Government could obtain any credit from the monied
world. Those were the circumstances under which the Bank
of England came into existeuce,and he was bound to say that
much of the relationsnow existing between the Bank and the'
State were founded upon antiquated and highly inappropriate
ideas. Whatever new arrangement was made, it ought to be
after a close and compreheasixe. investigation. The cha-
racter of the bank should be that of the great agent of
the state in matters of finance ; but he (Ay. Gladstone)
thought that the language of the paragraph ought not to im-
ply any foregone conclusion on the part of the house. (Hear,
hear.) The Act of 1844 was one In a large class of progres-
sive measures; and it did not pretend, in the judgment of
Sir Robert Peel, to a character of r absolute &mkt (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone) for one did not propose to un-
settle the Act of 1844, or to return to the state of things
which existed before ; bat he thought it ought to be under-
stood, that it was open to the house to consider whether the
Act of 1814 was capable of improvement. Such a course
would tend to give an assurance to the country that they
were at length beginning to emerge from a series of monetary

experiments, and to settle the question upon a permanent and
comprehensive basis. (Hear, hear.) A more important con-
sideration remained. He (Mr. Gladstone) had watched, like
others the reports which had ap,,eared of meetings taking
place in different parts of the country, with reference to the
income tax. It was a feeling, perhaps, that was inherent in
the nature of all such popular meetings, but it was one that
he could not help regretting, that the country now showed a
great disposition to becritical and sore on the subject of taxa-
tion, but not to be critical and sore on the subject of expen-
diture. If he (Mr. Gladstone) were to attempt to paint the
temper of the country at that moment, he should say that the
prevailing feature was, that they were jealous witk respect to
taxation, and reckless with regard to expenditure. It might
be considered well that the question of direct and indirect
taxation should be settled within the year. But he (Mr.
Gladstone) thought that both the'advocates of direct and in-
direct taxation—those who looked with the eyes of idolatry
upon their respective systems—would have abundant oppor-
tunities of discussing their respective merits during future
years. (Laughter.) There had been much discussion upon the
question whether the income tax should bo levied as at pre-
sent, or whether a varied rate shbuld be levied upon various
descriptions of income. They would never entirely get rid
of these discussions, and financial and even political dangers
might arise from such disci:tasking ; but he (Mr. Gladstone)
had never scrupled to avow his opinion that an income-tax
was an Admirable instrument, of taxation, but that it was a
dangerous instrument. (Hear.) They had much discussion on
the question of an uniform or varying rate for the income.
tax; whether incomes of DO/. or 15U/. should be the*limit
of exemption; and whether a man with 1511. of income
should pay income tax on his 1511., or on his 11. over the
1301. ; and upon none of these questions were the answers
explicit and intelligible. The real necessity was to put the
house and the country in the way of liraitins their outlay to
some just and reasonable scale of expense, suit&l to a peace
establishment. (Hear.) That was the question with respect
to which the house must in the first instance direct its atten-
tion, if they intended to discharge their duties to the people
of England, whom they represented. (Hear.) That was the
point to which he Gladstone) would then endeavour to
address himself. For once he was not entirely without infor-
mation on the' subject. There was a portion of the country,
the town of Arbroath, in the south of Scotland, which had
been highly favoured by the interesting revelations and dis-
closures made by the Minister it War to his delighted neigh-
bours and friends. (Laughter:) iHe (Mr. Glacisto net would ;not
then go into an important question of a different nature,_but
he could not understand why such 'a time and such a place
should have beeit chosen by the noble lord the Secretary at
War to deliver the opinions ofia Minister on the report of the
Crimean inquiry, by Sir John M'Neill and Colonel Tullpch.
Lord Panmure was stated to have related to his friends that
there would be a reduction in the forthcoming year of the

military estimates by twenty millions. He Or: Gladstone)
concluded that these were the military estimates—he sup-
posed that it was not the naval that were meant, but the
estimates for the army, the ordnance, the militia, and the
commissariat. Now, there was no means of coming to a know-
ledge of this subject except by the test of expenditure. It

was very well to talk of a niggard economy and so forth—
these were not only truths but truisms—so also to speak of
the benefits and virtues of economy, of relieving
,the people

'rota taxation, of removing their burdens, and so on: were
;ruths that came from the other end of t►,e diameter. They

might as well be uttered in Sanserit for the practical use
they possessed. (Hear.) But figures were more intelligible
to the house ; and he would approach the subject by means
. .

_ .
of the figures whim the Warifinister had given through his
great benevolence to his friends at Arbroath. It was said to
be in the contemplation of GOvernment that the military esti-
mates should be reduced by 20 millions. Last yar they
amounted to 35 millions. He (Mr. Gladstone) spoke of the
unreduced estimates of lad year, because the reduced esti-
mates amounted to 20; millions, and he would hardly sup-
pose that it was intended to reduce the latter sum by 20 mil-
lions. (Hear.) It was the unreduced inditary estimates that
it was thus intended to reduce. With regard to' the naval
department he must say that his right hon. friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty had not paid a visit to his friends at
Halifax, and therefore he (M.r. Gladstone) had not the cor-
responding inforra-ition as regarded that department; but
he was afraid, if he might judge from rumours, that they
were not to expect estimates of a very stingy , character.
These estimates last year were 20,00,000/. ; before, they
were reduced to 15,500,0001., which included ne less a sum
than 5,000,0001, for the transport service. He would now
hope, however, that that would be reduced to an amount al-
together insignificant, and he thought that the probable
amount that would be required by his right hon. friend would
be about 9,000,0001. for the naval department. Adding that
to the 14,000,0001. mentioned by Lord Paninure, as being ne-
cessary for the military department, he found that the esti-
mates for a' peace establishment would not be less than
25,000,000/. for the year. With regard to the necessities of the
country, he thought they ought to look at what the expenditure
had been before the war commenced.. It was quite true that
many things existed which required improvement, and that
that improvement could not be effected without eipense.
They had all seen, since their return to London, the improved
material of the great-coats of the soldiers. Changes such as
these, and whatever tended to the social and moral improve-
ment of the soldier, he was sure the country did list grudge.
But these were not the heavy charges and expenses —they
were caused by the tone of the policy which this country
maintained abroad. If it were true that there were changes
of necessity to be made in the military system which would
entail expense, it was not less true that there were important
and
happy changes taking place in the condition of the coun-
try
which tended toeeenomy. (Hear, hear) Herepudiated
the doctrine because we had vast colonial possessions we must
whave vast armies to defend them. Such a coarse of policy
institutions Int the crlornfei
Was
necessary when they had a slave population to keep
garrisons,
where it was necessary to maintain great military
perfectly
•
oyughlatieto
thatea rryt hweitphr otgrheemss
theof new
ob-
ligation
our title and
Who inheritancebelieved
of freedom, and there was no free-
manneceasity of these some one else should relieve. him from the
at home before theharges. Then, again, the state of things
now,, In /routs:. war was very different to what it was
ing as police,
liaid
the
were from 20,000 to 30,000 men act-
same duties eh be great bulk of the troops discharged the
h roughout the owever,been.made • country. A great change had,
rural police, therebyelt system by the establishment of
payers
toygenerall to a subjectinge .eal property and the rate-
enable them pe
considerable charge. But that would
force, as they
,did 20 or _with the application of their military
penditnre on thisbead
m3Owestrears ago, and, therefore, the ex-
age of the military esti te
during
considerably less. The aver.
the war was 14,000,00 u The luring the 41) years previous to
The estimates since that yeareweat' in
1835' was12'")""•
dom beyond 17,0001. During had risen considerably, but sel-
steam fleet had been created, witehlaaa t 15 or 20 years, a new
sion, by which a very large expenditnew system of propul-
that fleet being now completed, chore was incurred. But
a vast reduction. The estimate, howeevmeust of necessity be
by the Government exceeds that of the yearr's to be proposed
fleet was being made He and those with whenh the steam
familiar were of opinion that that house ons'hv4; in the ho
was
instance, to look at the expenditure of the country, first
would then proceed to show the danger iu which they.
house He
would find itself if it voted away the 9d. income tau, The
0 ax. The
feeling of the country would no doubt bo with them, but the
consequence must be that the Government would be com-
pelled to till the vaeuum by a new taxation or to borrow
money, and he for one was not willing to be responsible for
such a measure. The right bon. gentleman then vindi ated
the conduct of Lord Aberdeen's Government with reference
when the succession Duty Act was
'
to the alleged arrangement
passed, 'in 18 3,
• for the extinguishment of the income tax,
and said that in reply to complaints that income was charged
• hcapital, the Government,
equally with unable at the time to
reconstruct the income tax, had, by the Succession Duty Act,
thrown an additional burden on capital, and thus relieved in-
come. There were many purposes of the income tax yet un-
fulfilled. There remained to be effected reforms in our tariffs
both in ,he customs duties and in duties of excise, which
ought not to escape the attention of the house, and the re-
duction of which was perfectly practicable by the existence of
a moderate income tax. It was in his mind reasonable and
just that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), on behalf
of his friends, and any independent member on behalf of his
Iconstituents, should acknowledge it the duty of the House of
Commons to say now, in 1857, whether the pledges of 1853