The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-01 00:00:00

sity (Mr. Walpole) for the frank and earnest manner in
which they had considered the subject. He should hand
over these measures to the present Government, having no
doubt that the law officers would give the subject their
most careful attention, and, if approved by the Govern-
ment, they might be assured of every assistance which he
could render in passing these measures. The right hon.
and learned gentleman concluded by moving. for leave to
introduce several bills consolidating the criminal law of

England and Ireland.
The AT T 0 RNEY-GENERAL said it was not his inten•

tionio offer any opposition to the motion, but rather to
tender his thanks to the right hon. gentleman for the atten-
tion and labour he had bestowed upon the subject. It was,
however, requisite that the attention of the house should be
called to another matter connected with the subject, upon
which it was high time some determination should be ar-
rived at. The house was asked to receive bills proposing
to consolidate the whole of the criminal law of England and
Ireland. That was a simple proposition that they should
at one blow abrogate the whole existing law, and receive a
new enactment in place of those which they now had. He
wished the house to consider what means there were of
assuring to them that there would be no alteration in the
law effected by these bills, and that the new enactments
would amount to nothing more (with the particular excep-
tion he had mentioned) than a re-enactment of antece-
dent laws. It was impossible that the House of Commons
should take such a leap in the dark. In one particular—
that relating to the forfeiture to the Crown—he concurred
in the sentiments expressed by the right hon. and learned
gentleman. He had long felt as a law officer the great mis-
chief and inconvenience arising from the forfeiture of goods
and chattels and land. He concurred in the sentiments of
humanity and justice that had been quoted in order to in-
duce the house to consent toan alteration of the criminal law
in that respect, but it was a serious thing to ask the house
to accept a consolidation statute, being utterly, unable to
undertake the duty of examining that statute in order to
ascertain whether or not it was a simple embodiment of the
existing law, or whether they were not incurring the
risk ef enacting a change in the law. For that rea-
son he, as an individual, had long ago suggested to the house
the absolute necessity of establishing a department of justice,
comprising men whose bounden duty it should be to examine
into these subjects,who should be responsible. and who should
undertake the duty of examination in a manner different to
that of the Statute Law Commission, and upon whose
credit and faith all measures of consolidation should be in-
troduced to Parliament. The house was aware that the
statutes if gathered together—even if the very same words
were used—might by a different arrangement or alteration
in the preamble be made totally different to the existing law.
We had had for several years a Statute Law Commission,
but, with the exception of some bills laid upon the table
upon thg day before the dissolution of the last Parliament
by the late Attorney-General, that commission had not
produced a single measure. (Hear.) If anything was to be
done it was highly desirable that the grave and important
measure of consolidation should be committed to persons
who were responsible to that house. No doubt great assist-
ance was rendered by hon. and learned gentlemen who laid
upon the table bills, which were the result of their labour
and consideration, but the house ought to have some per-
son responsible for the preparation of such measures. The
late Attorney-General had laid upon the table before the
dissolution seven bills, which, except as to one particular,
were similar to these now sought to be introduced. That
showed the uncertain and unsatisfactory manner in which
such subjects were dealt with at present. It was un-
doubtedly necessary that something should be done, but he
entered his protest against a simple consolidation bill being
brought in upon the authority of an individual member,
however eminent he might be, in order that the house
should enter into an examination of that bill, together with
the whole body of statute law. It was no doubt true that
the graver the duty the more important it was that it should
be performed in a proper manner, but any piecemeal legis-
lation was, in fact, however meritorious, but a delusion,
putting off the performance of a duty that must be per-
formed some day in a different manner. Therefore, although
he must offer the highest praise to the right hon. gentleman
for the attention and labour he had devoted to the subject,
still he could not pledge himself to approve the mode in
• which it was proposed to deal with thitimportant matter.
Mr. MALINS observed that the system of consolidation
involved this difficulty—that it was impossible to pass the
' consolidated enactment through the house, unless the
house were prepared to take the enactment on trust. It
was improper and incredible that that should ever be done ;
but he was surprised that the Attorney-General only pointed
out this difficulty in order to mount a hobby of his own.
The hon. and learned gentleman admitted that the house
ought not to take these measures on trust, and then went
on to say that a certain body ought to dictate to the house
the measures to be passed, and that body was to be the de-
' partment of justice.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the hon. and
learned gentleman had forgotten that the house passed a
resolution that it was expedient that there should be a de-
partment of justice for this express purpose.
Mr. M ALINS said that resolution was passed in a very
thin house, and he thought it his duty at the time to protest
against that which he deemed a mere theory, and . which
never could be brought into action. The resolution passed
three years ago, and the experience of the three years showed
' that his opinion was well founded ; for nothing had been
' done since upon it. The resolution had proved a mere
barren resolution, and he ventured to predict that nothing
would ever come of it ; for if the house would not trust
those responsible officers, the Lord High Chancellor of
England, and the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, whose
duty it was to submit law measures to Parliament, was it
' to be supposed that it would trust the same individuals as-
sembled together under another name ? (Hear.) Ho re-
' peated what he had formerly stated, that the Lord Chan-
' cellos, with the assistance of the law officers of the Crown,
were the proper persons to propose such measures of law
reform as were to be submitted to both Houses of Parlia
ment by the Government of the day, and the change in the
' 'business, which the Lord Chancellor used to perform, would
now enable that functionary to give, when Parliament was
' not sitting, much of his attention to measures of legal re-
form. He could not allow his hon. and learned friend to
propagate this idea about the necessity of a department
of justice without rising to offer his protest against it.
The hon. and learned member for Suffolk, about four
years ago, said he would submit 18 bills to the house,
and that, in 18 months, the statute law of England would
be consolidated. He had ventured to say that that would
not be effected in 18 years, nor as long as any man then
lived. The whole proceeded on an erroneous principle.
What did the hon. and learned member state last session ?
That he was prepared to lay 93 bills en the table of the
house. In what period did the hon. and learned member
expect to pass those 93 bills ? Did he expect that the house
would pass them 'without examination ? and, if the house
examined them, how many weeks or years would it take to
pass these 93 bills? (Hear, hear.) He quite agreed that
it was discreditable to have one state of the law in England
and another in Ireland : but he wished to point out the
difficulties attending any attempt to carry into effect those
mere theories.
Mr. L. KING observed that since the Attorney-General
was last in office the Statute Law Commission had been
' annihilated, and now there was an opportunity, ho hoped,
not for another job, but for a more practical commission or
body of men to set to work to reform the law. He wished
to ask the late Attorney-General for Ireland whether the
bills he had moved to introduce were not precisely the same
as had been over and over again submitted to the house,
and never passed into a law ? Was it creditable the way
in which things had been going on. The late Statute
Law Commission expended £23,000 or £24,000 without any
result, and the former Commission expended £50,000. He
hoped that the house would take up the question, and pro-
ceed on a fixed plan. He was quite satisfied that the first
step to be taken was to expurgate the Statute-book, and
then to proceed to consolidate. That was the plan proposed
in this house by the present Lord Chief Justice, when At-
torney-General. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOWYER contended that the consolidation of the
statute law was utterly impossible, unless the house, which
by its constitution was unequal of itself to undertake the
duty, would be content to remit its performance to persons
whose studies and qualifications pre-eminently enabled
them to cope with the difficulties with which it was sur-
rounded. He asked how it was possible for a large pro-
miscuous assembly like that house to enter on such an in-
vestigation and sustain it to a successful completion. If
the house could not trust a commission composed of a num-
ber of learned persons to execute the task of consolidation,
was it likely that it would trust its performance to a com-
mittee chosen from among its own members ? (Hear.) The
Attorney-Gen„eral proposed what he called a Department
of Justice, but it had never yet been decided what that
meant. (Hear.) What the Attorney General called a De-
partment of Justice was, in fact, a Department of Legisla-
tion, whose duty it would be to draw up bills for the con-
solidation of the law, and afterwards to submit those bills
to Parliament. Was not that the very thing now being
doneby the Statute Law Commissioners ? He would re-
mind the house that in the two most remarkable instances
in history of the consolidation of the law the work had been
done by a commission. He referred to the consolidation of
the Roman law under Justinian and of the French law
under the first Napoleon. The consolidation of the Roman
law under Justinian was conducted by commissioners con-
stituted precisely as our Statute Law Commission now was.
The Roman commissioners might have been more eminent
persons perhaps, and better remunerated ; the work might
have been done in a more comprehensive manner than the
kindred one was now proposed to be executed by us, but still
it was done through the intervention of a commission. The
consolidation of the French law under Napoleon I. was
also done by a commission; and afterwards discussed in the
Privy Council, in the presence of the Emperor, precisely
in the manner in which such a scheme might be discussed in
that house. With these two great instances before Them,
he asked why it should not be possible to constitute a
commission with sufficient powers to investigate the
whole subject of the statute law, then to conso-
lidate that law into what might be called a code,
arranged under certain heads, and finally for the Govern-
ment to submit it to the consideration of Parliament.
(Hear, hear.) The house was greatly indebted to the late
Attorney- General for Ireland for having grappled with this
subject, and for having introduced the bills under con-
sideration. He (Mr. Bowyer) contended that tho house
must make up its mind to take this work upon trust, for,
if they did not, they would only squander large sums of
money in printing and in salaries, without obtaining any
satisfactory result. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLIER said up to this time the house had been
trying how not to do this work of consolidation. The ques -
tion now was how to do it. (A laugh.) The Statute Law
Commission, composed though it was of very eminent men,
but still men whose duties were various and the demands
on whose energies were manifold, was unequal to the task.
The consolidation of the law required the whole energies of
the ablest men who could be selected for the task. We had
never yet tried the expedient of a Department of Public
Justice, composed of the most eminent men, whose sole and
undivided energy should be devoted to this great work.
Until we adopted that means the task would never be per-
formed, but when we once had recourse to it he had no
doubt that in a few years our statutes would be consolidated
Sir F. KELLY felt that he owed it both to that house
and to some few individuals without its walls to explain
what was really the present stare of this great question of
the consolidation of the statutes, and to endeavour to re-
move some misapprehensions which existed with regard to
it. Of the 40 volumes containing the statutes of Great
Britain, not more than four consisted of statutes in force
and operation ; the remaining 36 were filled with Acts of
Parliament which had expired, or become obsolete, or were
for some reason or other not in force. In addition to this
it must be remembered that the statute-. on any given sub-
ject were entirely unconnected, and, therefore, to ascertain
the law upon it you must either study a text book or hunt
through all the statutes from Magna Charta to the present
time. Under these circumstances it was not remarkable
that from the time of Lord Bacon numerous attempts
should have. been made to reduce our statutes into such a
form that what was the law upon any subject might easily
be found upon the statute-book. Hitherto all such.
attempts had failed. The Statute Law Commission was
originally appointed in the year 1853. That commission
expired, and in 1854 a new one was appointed, which,
chiefly under the direction of Lord Cranworth, had con-
tinued its labours with more or less activity to the present
time. Nearly three years ago he stated in that house that
if the plan adopted by the commission was-carried into effect
there was no reason to doubt that the statute law of Eng-

land, to which their attention was then confined, might be neap and with India (in continuation of papers presented
consolidated within the space of three years. At the same on the 29th of June, 1858).
time, however, he stated that to the accomplishment of SALE OF GRAIN.
that task there would be necessary the cordial co-operation Mr. M 'CANN obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
not only of the law officers of the Crown, but also of the sale of grain, flour, meal, potatoes, &c., wholesale and re-
Government and the Legislature. A plan was proposed to tail, by the pound avoirdupois, its decennial multiples, and
the commission which had been to a considerable extent aliquot parts.
acted upon, and in accordance with which 93 bills were now
ready, or nearly ready, which would consolidate the whole
of the criminal statute law, the whole of the mercantile
statute law, and the whole of the real property statute law.
The first question which arose in the work of consolidation
was whether the Houses of Parliament were to accept any
portion of the work upon trust ; for if the 300 or 400 bills
to which the statutes at large might be reduced were to be
debated in committee like ordinary measures of legislation,
the lifetime of the youngest member of that house would
not be long enough for the completion of the work. Sup-
posing, however, the house was disposed to assume that
the bills prepared under the sanction of learned and emi-
nent persons contained a true consolidation and re-enact
ment of the law, the important question arose whether,
concurrently with the consolidation of the statute law, they
should attempt to amend that law. If all the projects for
the amendment of the statute law which might be sug-
gested were to undergo consideration, it must be obvious
that the task could not be half performed during the
life of the youngest member of that assembly. It
was evident either that some scheme must be devised
for submitting to the house bills comprising the consoli-
dation of the statute law, with such amendments as
were likely to be acceded to without any considerable dis-
cussion,- or the whole undertaking must be at once and for
ever abandoned. An hon. and learned friend of his on the
opposite side had suggested that the task should be com-
mitted to a Board, or to a department of Justice, who, do •
voting their entire time and attention to the subject, would
be able to arrive at a complete consolidation of the law. He
might observe that no blame could be cast either upon the
Statute Law CommissiOners, or upon the late Government,
or upon the Goverement which had preceded them, on the
ground that no further progress had been made in this
matter. The Statute Law Commission had produced re-
ports and draughts of bills, which it would be found, when-
ever the proper time for their consideration might arrive, had
nbt only laid the foundation of any scheme of consolida-
tion that was practicable, but had totally and for ever re-
moved all the substantial difficulties in the way of the
complete execution of this great undertaking. He hoped
the time was not far distant when, under the auspices of
his hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General and the
present Government, the task would be undertaken, and it
would then be found that the reports of the Statute Law
Commissioners, together with the expurgation of the sta-
tutes—pointing out all the parts of every statute which
were repealed or expiring—a work now nearly completed,
had rendered the duty consolidation comparatively easy.
Neither the Statute Law Commissioners, nor the late
Government, nor the preceding Government, were open
to censure on the ground that more had not already been
accomplished, for bills, eight in number, comprising a
consolidation of the whole criminal statute law of England,
had been prepared under the administration of the noble
lord opposite, and notice after notice was placed upon the
votes by the Solicitor-General of his intention to submit
those measures to the house. When the late Government
acceded to office he (Sir F. Kelly) undertook to bring for-
ward the same bills with some alterations and amendments,
but the pressure of other business—particularly the India
Bill—rendered it impossible for him to call the atten-
tion of the house to the subject last year. He had
endeavoured to bring forward this question this year,
but it was intimated, in a short debate on the subject, that it
would be desirable to assimilate the law of England and
Ireland, and that important task was undertaken by his
right hon. friend the late Attorney-General for Ireland,
with the assistance of the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
and other learned persons in that country. After much dif
fieulty and labour they had succeeded in combining in one
set of bills, eight or nine in number, the complete consoli-
dation of the criminal statute law of the two countries.
These measures had now been submitted to the house by his
right hon. friend, not with any idea that he, no longer a
member of the Government, could carry them through the
house, but in order that the house might see that the sub-
ject had not been overlooked, and that they might be able
to understand the scheme of consolidation emanating origi-
nally with the Statute Law Commission, and which was
now adopted by many of the most eminent and learned law-
yers and statesmen in this country and in Ireland. When
these bills had been considered by the house and by the
Government he hoped they would hear from some member
of the Administration whether this important undertaking
—the consolidation of the statute law—was to be entirely
and for ever abandoned, or was to be at last attempted upon
principles which he hoped would receive the sanction of the
house and the approbation of the public. He would only
express his entire conviction that if his right hon. and
learned friends opposite, supported by Government, would
apply their minds to this great task, they would succeed in
accomplishing it to the satisfaction of Parliament and of
the country.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had heard with surprise
from his hon. and learned friend the member for Walling.
ford the opinion that it was impossible to consolidate the
statute law. 'Why, the task which his learned friend pro-
nounced to be impossible had been actually and most suc-
cessfully accomplished by the Legislature of New York.
The question really was as to the best mode of proceeding
under the circumstances. The discussion arose upon
the introduction by his right hon. friend opposite of
bills, which, as he understood, were intended to assimilate
the statute laws of England and Ireland. He was of opinion
that the time had come when the statute law, and especially
the criminal law, of the two countries should be as much
as possible assimilated. The late Statute Law Commission
had, he thought, been rather hardly dealt with by his hoe.
and learned friend. The Statute Law Commission had gone
on this principle—that the consolidation of the criminal law
should inthe first instance be proceeded with in Parliament,
and that if the effort was successful, then they should pro-
ceed with the consolidation of the whole law. In pursuance
of this view, bills were introduced, and passed the House of
Lords, and he believed those bills would have passed through
that house also had not a change of Government taken place,
which for the time put an end to legislation on the subject.
He believed that great difficulties would lie in the way of an
assimilation of the statute law of both countries without
previous separate consolidation being carried out. (Hear.)
He concurred with the Attorney-General, however, in giv-
ing his best wishes to the object which the right hon. gentle-
man had in view. He also agreed with him in thinking that
consolidation would never be properly effected till there was
a department—either a minister of justice or some other
functionary or functionaries—which could take up and ac-
complish the task. (Hear, hear.) The proposal for such a
department came from the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland
(Mr Napier), and it was received with favour on both sides
of the house. It was therefore hardly fair on the part of his
hon. and learned friend opposite to tell the Attorney-Gene-
ral that in recommending such a department he was riding
a hobby. If there was a hobby, it was that of the late
Chancellor of Ireland, taken up, however, and approved by
the whole house. (Hear.) He had only to say that, in so
far as he was coneerned, it would be his care to promote as
much as lay in his power the object which his right hon.
friend (Mr. Whiteside) had in view. (Hear.)
Mr. M'MAHON protested against the system of giving
the Crown such an immense accession of influence and
patronage as was given to it out of the administration of
justice. In this respect the influence of the Crown had in-
creased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. They
had been paying the Statute Law Commissioners large
sums of money for years, and - what had been the result ?
The bills they brought forward were so wholly indefensible
that no law officer of the Crown would have had the cou.
rage to stand up and defend them in that house. There
was no science, no skill, no knowledge shown in them, and
they proved that it was a mere waste of public money to go
on with. such a system. He believed that if the duty of
consolidating- the statute law was taken up by hon. and
learned members in that house—men responsible to Parlia-
ment and the country—more would be done in a few months
than had been done for years. (Hear, hear.) That, in his
opinion, was the best possible way of consolidating the sta-
tutes, and the sooner the Consolidation of the Statute Law
Commission was got rid of the better. He saw no neces-
sity for a Department of Justice. In that house there was
always the Attorney and Solicitor General of the present
Government, and the Attorney and Solicitor,General of the
past Government, and in the other house there were now
five ex-Chancellors' besides other law lords of eminence.
The work ought to be done by these, without imposing any
additional burden on the country. There was no such de-
partment in any country enjoying a constitutional Govern-
ment, and the house ought at once to scout the idea.
Mr. WHITESIDE, in reply, said that these bills were
not the crude productions of one man. They had been
drawn up in Ireland, then submitted to the Home Secre •
tary and the law officers in this country, and afterwards
discussed and decided on by the Cabinet. The hon. mem-
ber for Surrey objected to loading the statute-book with
new statutes, but he entirely forgot or passed over the fact
that these 12 bills would get rid of no less than 264 statutes.
The Attorney -General recommended the house to wait un-
til the new Department of Justice was established, but he
would find it rather more difficult to induce the house to
agree to that plan than he expected. (Hear.) He himself
agreed with those who maintained that the work ought
to be done by the Lord Chancellor for the time being,
and certainly with so many men of eminent abilities in the
other house, who had devoted so much time to the subject
of law reform, there was no need to increase the public bur-
dens by the creation of any such separate department. To
pass zeal° such measures as he had prepared woulsleredoura
to the credit of any administration, and if the Attorney-
General would adopt and -improve his bills he should have
his best thanks.
Mr. SLANEY believed that it would be greatly for the
benefit of the landed interest if a commission were esta-
blished resembling the Encumbered Estates Commission,
not compulsory, but enabling any gentleman to go before it
and prove his title. He believed that such a commission
would give the landed gentry the advantage of from three
to five years' purchase in the value of their estates.
Mr. r'el ALPOLE thought that if the house desired to
Come to a sound conclusion relative to the codification or
consolidation of the law; they would not facilitate the ob-
ject by bringing in dozens of matters not connected with
that object. His right hon. friend (Mr. Whiteside) had
taken so much 'pains in this matter that he should not be
do
d esia
inghirblmjeunseteis of adoptingceunlesshe the' measurespressedupon he had proposedtheGovern
for consolidating the criminal law of the two countriesTehnet
the
first thing which the late Government had to consider was
whether the law of the two countries ought to be assimilated
or not. They agreed that it ought to be assimilated. They
had next to consider whether the law of capital punishment
ought to be amended and ameliorated, and this question
also they answered in the affirmative. In the third place,
they had to decide the knotty question of the conspiracy to
murder, and herein it was agreed that ,the law of the two
countries ought to be placed on the same footing. They
had. next to consider whether the criminal law of the
two countries might not be placed in competent hands
in order to its being consolidated in one set of statutes,
so that Parliament might adopt the consolidation so
recommended to it without referring it to do )artments
or a commission. It was thought that this could be done.
Measures of this kind ought to be carried thrc uga the house
upon the responsibility of the Government—(hear, hear)—
and he would ask the present Government and the Atter-
ney-General to consult the criminal law of England and
Ireland, and see whether the bills of his right lion. friend
were not deserving of adoption. If the Attorney-General
thought the bills good he would advise him to take up the
subject at once, and he could premise him the utmost sup-
port on that side of the house. (Hear, hear.) They might
then have one consolidated set of statutes for the whole
criminal law of the country. This would be a good be-
ginning, and they would sooner arrive at a consolidation of
the other statutes than if they talked of referring the ques-
tion to departments, commissions, and other modes of stav-
ing off this important subject. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that there were sever ex-
Lord Chancellors in the receipt of £5,000 a-year who would
no doubt assist in a work of this kind.
Leave was given to bring in the bills, which were after-
TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNI-
AwiardpsirTeaEditaßfiArsNt tEimAeN.
CATION.
On the motion of Mr. CRAWFORD, an address was areed
to for copies of further correspondence respecting the
esta-
blishment of telegraphic coramwlication i 4 the Neditorra-

BIBLE BOARD (SCOTLAND).
Mr. DUNLOP moved an address for copy of the Royal
Warrant constituting the Board of her Majesty's sole and
only master printers in Scotland, commonly called the
Bible Board of Scotland; and of :the letters of instructions
directed to the said Board ; and of the several reports from
time to time presented by the Board to her Majesty.
The motion was ageed to.
METROPOLIS GAS.
Sir J. SHELLEY obtained leave to introduce a bill to
regulate the proceedings of gas companies and others sup-
plying the metropolis with gas.
LUNATICS.
Mr. WALPOLE moved for the reappointment of a Select
Committee to inquire into the operation of the Acts of Par-
liament and regulations for the care and treatment of
lunatics and their property. The right hon. gentleman said
the former committee had proceeded a great way with their
inquiries, but had not completed them when Parliament
was dissolved. He believed all the members of the late
committee but one were members of the present house.
The motion was agreed to.
SUPPLY.
The house having resolved itself into Committee of
Supply,
Lord PALMERSTON moved that Mr. Massey do take
the chair.
No other name being mentioned, Mr. Massey took the
chair amid some cheering.
The paragraph of the Royal Speech relating to the esti-
mates having been read,
Mr. LAING moved that a supply be granted to her
Majesty. •
Sir H. WILi,OUGHBY asked whether it was intended
there should be any financial statement before a vote of
money was taken ? A year and four months hid now
passed since such a statement had been made, and it was
most important at the present time that an accurate account
of the expenditure and income of the country should be
made to Parliament.
Lord PALMERSLON begged the hon. baronet to repeat
his question on Monday, when the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would, he hoped, be in the house. (A laugh.)
The formal motion was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.,
NEW WRIT.
' Upon the motion of Mr. BRAND a new writ was ordered
to issue for the borough of Marylebone, in the room of Sir
B. Hall, now Baron Llanover.
The house adjourned at half-past seven o'clock.

COUNTRY MARKETS:

MANCHESTER-JUNE 30.

The wheat trade since our last, under the influence of
fine weather and large arrivals of wheat and flour from
France into Liverpool, has been exceedingly inactive, with
scarcely any transactions taking place, and the prices are
little better than nominal.