The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-12 00:00:00

THE CIVIL ESTIMATES.

Mr. WILSON informed the house that he intended
to-morrow to move the civil service estimates and, at
the same time, to make a general statement relative to
the large increase that had taken place in their estimates
within the last five years, so that hon. members might
discuss them on a whole, instead of on each vote, as pro-
posed to the house. (Hear, hear )
Sir F. BARING said that tomorrow on gostig into
committee of supply, be sboull call the attenti on of ,he
house to the expenditure of money on the Park without
a vote of the house being first obtained. (sear, hear.)
SURVEYS IN CHINESE WATERS.
Mr. MOFFATT moved for a return of the res pective
dates of transmission to the Admiralty of any official
surveys that may have been made in the Chinese waters
between Macao and Hong Kong since the cest lion of
that island to her Majesty ; and similar return a as to
“fficial surveys of all other portions of the Chine' in coast.
I Agreed to.
IRISH FAIRS AND MARKETS.
Mr. SULLIVAN asked the Attorney Gr• moral for

[PRICE 4n. STAMPED 51).]

Ireland when the Fairs and Markets Bill, which was
to have been in the hands of Irish members at the Spring
Assizv, would he introduced, and whether it was the
intention of Government to pass that measure during
the pree'nt session of Parliament ?
Mr. FITZGEEtA.LD said that be hoped the Chief
Secretary for Ireland would be in his place on Monday,
when be would be able to answer the question. A bill
was now ready on the subject.

SUPPLY.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, in consequence of the absence of Lcrd
Palmerston, the motion for going into supply was poet-
Need till to-morrow.
DUCIIY OF LANCASTER.
Mr. WISE called the attention of the house to the
accounts of the Duchy of Lancaster, presented to Parlie•
meat in pursuance of the Act 1 and 2 Vic c. 101, and
moved an address for a return of all manors and
estates new belonging to the Crown in right of the
Duchy of Lancaster ; of all sales, grants, and enfr an-
chisemente which had taken place since 1833 ; of the
purchases and exchanges of land which had been since
the same period, and the date and term of all existing
leases of the lands, mines, and rents of the Duchy. lie
bad taken a great interest in this matter for many
years, and in 1814 had moved for a return upon the sub-
ject, which, however, he had not obtained, it being al-
leged that there was so mu eh private property involved
that he might as well ask fur a return of any private
member's rent-re 11. He had come to the conclusion that
Parliament had adopted it as a convenient doctrine that
when Parliament wanted anything from the Duchy of
Lancaster, it was declared to be private property, but
that when the duchy wanted anything from Parliament,
then the property became public. He found, on look-
ing into the history of the duchy, that the first Duke of
Lancaster, Henry IV., on his ascent to the throne, be-
lieving his position rather slippery, was obliged to come
to Pa-liament to ask for a-everance of these estates from
the Crown lands. Henry V. followed the same course,
and added to the duchy the property of his mother, which
wee considerable. Edward VI. sequestered the estates
and added them to the Crown. Henry VII. came to
Parliament arid obtained pernais,ion again to sever those
estates from the Crown property. Indeed during almost
every reign those estates came under the consideration
of Parliament, and, singular enough, Oliver Cromwell
was the last who dealt with this property ; for owing to
the death of Charles I the revenue of the duchy became
national property. Oliver Cromwell again severed them.
and Charles 11. left the property as Cromwell bad left
it. He (Mr. Wise) wished to know what had bees done
with this property. In 1750 a bill had been introduced
by Lord Cavendish, Mr. Burke, and Mr. Fox, and he
(Mr. Wise) referred to it because he thought the feeling
of the house at that time might be a guide to the present
Parliament. The object of that bill was to unite to the
Crown the Duchy and County Palatine of Lancaster,
and to ascertain the rights of sale of all lands, tene-
ments, and hereditaments belonging thereto, for the
purpose of applying the produce thereof to the
public service. That motion, it should be remembered,
was made in the reign of George 111., and in an
unreformed Parliament. The next progress of the
property was that the House of Commons passed an
act rep-tiring the accounts of the duchy to be laid
on the table of the house every year. That proved
that the duchy was looked upon as public property.
With the knowledge which he had of the property, he
felt he should not be discharging his duty as a member
of the Legislature if he did not state the facts he knew
to the house, and call upon the officers of the Duchy of
Lancaster to do their duty, not only to the State, but
also to the Sovereign whom they represented. His de-
sire was to get rid of a cumbrous Gothic establishment.
The revenues of the duchy scarcely more than belonged
to the royal duchess who held them, because they were
all eaten up by expenditure. The burden upon the
estate was a great as the benefit from it. The revenues
were simply revenues on paper and certainly never
entered into the privy purse. With regard to the re-
venues, and expenditure, sad receipts of the privy purse
during the present reign, he found the total receipts were
722,96 W., and the privy purse had received out of that
sum 251,11001, ; so that the outgoings had been 471,980/.
In other words, the average income was 38,0001., and
the privy purse received out of that 13,0001. a-year.
(Hear, hear.) The accounts presented a more favourable
appearance last year, the revenues being 41,043/., and
the privy purse receiving 23,0001. With regard to the
establishment of the duchy, it was composed of 60 per-
sons, receiving an income of 8,5271. There was a chan-
cellor, who received 2,0001. a-year, and whose duties
were not very onerous or important ; a vice•claanceller,
with 6001. a-year, who, he believed, discharged some
duties for the benefit of the Lancashire people, but he
thought it was very undesirable to keep up that small
jurisdiction then. Then came a receiver-general, with
a salary of 878/ , but he could have very little to do,
inasmuch as the rents were paid into the bank of
Coutts and Co. There was an auditor who Lad 2001
a-year, and a clerk, register, and secretary with a salary
of 1,3421, and probably he was the proper person to per-
form all the duties connected with the establishment.
There were four clerks, a solicitor receiving 3001. a-year,
a surveyor with 5001. a-year, two attorney-generals, 15
receivers, and 23 stewards, The law eapepses alone dur-
ing the last 19 years were 20,870. It might be said
that the nature of the property required this vast
establishment. To some extent it might require it, be-
cause he ound the property was scattered through 20
c unties in England. With regard to the revenues and
expenditure of the forests, taking the average of the lest
14 years of the forest of Needwood, he found the wood
sold for 11.8931., and tkte labour of cutting it down cost
9:9501. (Laughter.) In another forest, however, the
case was far worse, for while the produce was 5,7741.,
the expenses were 18,4251. Then there was a high dig-
nified and distinguished official called the axe bearer,
with 2001. a-year. The axe bearer was a noble peer—(a
laugh)—and it was notorious that Needwood was kept
up, not for the happiness and comfort of its royal rnis,
tress, but for the amusement and pleasure of the neigh-
bouring gentry, who bunted there with the axe bearer
and his friends. There were a great number of charges
which he thought were most unjustifiable reductions
from the privy purse. In the civil list her Majesty was
obliged to subscribe several hundreds, if not thousands,
a-year for what were called "Queen's Plates"—there
was a charge of 1051. for Lancaster races. The next
was a most absurd charge, being nothing less than 481.
for the travelling expenses of the duchy seal. (Laugh-
ter.) He supposed the seal came up from Lancast,r, and
went to the Clarendon Hotel, arid then returned back by
special train, (A. laugh.) But there was a still more
extraordinary charge of 4321. fir seals. In every reign
a new set of seals were cut for the duchy court, and the
last set cost 4321. This was a system most unjust to the
Sovereige and injurious to the State, because if such
things were allowed the public property became ridicu-
lous. The whole of these revenues were eaten up by mis-
management, and the salaries of officers who were of no
.advantagwto the country. He saw no remedy for such
a state (4:things but to charge the revenues on the con-
solidated fund and transfer to the hereditary revenues, so
that-ethieyntiglat be collected as the other revenues now
were wiltient, this monstrous expense. He felt convinced
that-104M. Copyholds on the manor were got rid of
'very..greitleinefit would follow, and he believed if the
Chancellor of the Duchy were to make a notification
to that effect, in a very few months 501 per annum
might be commuted into a capital sum of 30,0001. (Hear,
hear.) The first question he wished to put to the right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Baines) wag, why was the income
of the duchy so stationary ! Large sums had been sold
out of the public stock, and a great number of improve-
ments had taken place, and yet there was no difference
whatever. between the years 1341 and 1850. He could
only say there might be one explanation, namely, that a
great number of very bad bargains had been made in the
purchase and exchange of land. A recent purchase had
been made by which a property amounting to 11,3081 ,

had been added to the duchy. There was another point
to which he wished to call the attention of the house,
namely, the capital accounts, which were in such a con-
dition that the Chancellor of the Duchy himself, in 1854,
ackno‘Nledged they were not calculated to convey full
and clear information to Parliament, He wished to
know what was made of the fines on renewals and sales.

Froin renewals the income was 26,731/., and on sales
50,3651. 'What was done with that money ! He declared
that his object was that the ducby should produce as
much income as possible for her Majesty. Again, as to
the minerals, there a great increase of the produce from
that source, but there had been no statement respecting
it since 1837 and 1833. He did not understand the rea-
son of that omission. Since Parliament required the
production of the accounts, there had been a statement
for two years, showing the number of tons raised, the
price paid, and the royalty, but nothing of the kind
Csibnacae
.
these appeared. He must now ask whether
it,
their
at-
cellor of the' Duchy or other officers had,
tention to a very serious question, name yg,Lvt demand
,the
for compensation for the destruction of property by
the Stafford colleries. The copyholdere in North
Staffordshire had purchased the surface from the
Crown, and the question was whether they were to have
a foundation ! The lessees of the minerals bad under-
mined a district, and a town containing 30,000 inhabi-
tants, and streets, houses, churches, and chapels had
been affected by the general ruin. It looked like nothing
so much as Hercu:aneurn, except always the beauty of
the arts which decorated the ancient ruin. There were
roofless houses, cracked walls, a manufactory (costing
6,0001.) totally destroyed, 30 houses shaken to the
foundation ; a rick disappeared, a pig-stye sunk under
ground, but the inhabitant, having been uneasy two or
three days before, escaped that night, and was found in
the neighbourhood next day. (A laugh.) Families
were thrown out of occupation, some of them were
ruined, become bankrupt, and were in the workhouse.
The copyholders brought the question before the law
courts. The duchy spent 8,0001. in defending the
lessees. The judges, including Lord Chief Justice
Denman, decided in favour of the copyholders, saying
their right, to a foundation was inalienable. That was
a scandalous state of things, and it appeared all the
worse that the money of the duchy should be spent in
defending the lessees from the claim to compensation
made by the copyholders for the injuries done them.
He bagged the right hon. gentleman's attention to these
subjects with a view to the advantage of the country,
the benefit of her Majesty, and the character of the
Government themselves.
Alderman COPELAND seconded the motion. They