The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-01 00:00:00

a
present Ministers might by some fortuitous chance form
another Government, which would carry out the
policy
ably followed by his noble friend. (Hear.) They had suc-
owded in forming a Government. Ofposst the talents.
le of its
respect,mem-
bars he wished to speak with the greatest bo
and the integrity of their motives he did not d
übV. But
_
in consequence of that unfortunate step the country had
been left for some two weeks or more without any Govern-
ment at all, and even now two of the most important offices
of the State were not yet filled,—the one because it was not
yet known whether the constituency would return the right
hon. gentleman, and the other because it was not right
won. the hon. gentleman himself would join the Admi-
• tration. (Hear, hear.) He begged to read an extract
from the speech of Mr. Cobden at Liverpool, which cer-
tainly did not agree with the ,noble sentiments they had
to-night heard from the President of the Council. Mr:
Cobden said,—" The Americans look with some dread at
the amount of preparations which are making in England
for the purpose, to use the language of those gentlemen who
site in the habit of speaking in public, of meeting any
eventualities. Now, the opinion of the United States is
that war between two great Powers of the continent does
not involve any more danger to England than if they were
at peace and keeping their armies unemployed. I heal('
opinions in America expressed to this effect,—' If rwere in
a ,merchant ship and saw two pirates, I should be much
more easy if they were fighting each other than if they
were standing aloof ready to bear down upon me.' "
(Laughter.) He rejoiced most sincerely to hear from the
noble- earl that the armaments of the country were to be
kept up, so as not only to meet but to prevent the possi-
bibty of invasion. (Hear, hear.) He did not know whether
Mr. Cobden had accepted office, but if he had he hopedd at
Mr.
Cobden would renounce such opinions as he expresse
Liverpool, and adopt those of the noble earl in their stead.
(Cheers.) He believed that Deland ought to be prepared
for any and every eventuality. He hoped that we should
be able to keep out of this fearful carnage, but he said that
we plight to be prepared, and he said so not doubting the
sincerity of the Emperor of the French, but because the
Emperor was no longer master of the situation. He ad-
mitted that the Emperor had treated this country with a
loyalty and frankness for which we should be ever grateful
but now that he had roused the passions of the French army
be could not say to that army, " Thus far shalt thou go
and no farther. (Hear, hear.) The Emperor could not
restrain the French army, and no one could say what e
might happen. (Cheers.)
The Earl of MALMESBUIIY said,—I should not think
of troubling your lordships this evening if I had not been
obliged to wait for some time before I was able
the present
to answer
certain charges made by eminent members o f
and by the Prime Minister, with respect to
Gov e ent,
that part of the policy of the late Government for which I
more particularly responsible. On the last night
wthaast we met in this house my noble friend the President
of the Council, if he did not make charges, certainly made
two or three insinuations of neglect, in which, I think, he
must now confess that he was mistaken. (Hear.) In the
first place, he insinuated that her Majesty's late Govern-
ment had not taken such measures as were desirable to pre-
vent the collision which subsequently took place between
Austria and France and Sardinia. He asked, with the con-
viction, no doubt, that such was not the fact, whether,
early in the month of February, or within three weeks of
Parliament meeting, the late Government had done any-
thing to put a stop to the then unfortunate state of things.
The noble earls if he has had time, and taken the trouble to
read the books which I haveplacedon your lordships' table,
must confess that we did all we possibly could at the period
to which he alluded to prevent what subsequently occurred.
(Cheers.) As early as the 10th January her Majesty's
late Government addressed bath the Courts of Paris and
Vienna, entreating them to use their utmost efforts to come
to some understanding, they being the only two Powers
which, by acting in concert, could stop the calamities we
foresaw and prevent the war which was impending. I will
not trouble your lordships by reading any extract, but I do
not believe that any language could be stronger, or any
advice more candidly put forward than was addressed to
those two Courts on that occasion. (Cheers.) My noble
friend went on to insinuate that Lord Cowley's mission
VMS invested with great mystery and discredit, and that it
had no definite object. You will find in the blue-book that
before Lord Cowley left Paris he had a personal interview
with the Emperor, that the Emperor drew up a memoran-
dum of points which he wished to be settled by the Court
of Austria, that these points were afterwards drawn up by
Count Walewski, and that nothing could be more particular
and exact than the objects with which Lord Cowley went to
Vienna. (Cheers.) lam sure that in that respect also my
noble friend will admit his anticipations have not been jus-
tified, and I am quite prepared to acknowledge that, in
alluding to those to him obscure points of our foreign
policy, ho did not lay upon them any such stress as to say
that her Majesty's late Government ought, in consequence
of them, to be excluded from office. My noble friend con-
fined himself to the expression of a hope that the supposi-
tion on which his statement was based was not true, but
there are other members of the present Ministry who were
not content to pursue a similar course. The noble lord at
the head of the Government himself did not scruple to use
in another place language to which I shall, with your lord-
ships' permission, briefly refer. He was, in the course of
the speech in which that language occurs, attempting to
show that the late Government was not entitled to the con-
fidence of the country, and to adduce proofs that they ought
to be immediately ejected from office as unworthy to give
counsel to the Sovereign. The ground on which he based
his argument as their incapacity to discharge that duty
was this :—He said, " The course which the Go-
vernment has taken has brought on war. They
are the cause of the present hostilities ; " and
how, in his opinion, had we produced this result ? By
the use of language hostile to France and Sardinia and by
patronising Austria. He said we held out hopes of sup •
porting Austria against France, that we were ignorant
that Austria was determined on war, and that France was
not prepared for it ; and, that being the case, that the
breaking out of war was attributable to us, and that we
were as a consequence no longer fit to hold the seals of
office. Now, if this imputation be correct—if we were in
reality the cause of this dreadful war, no verdict could be
more just than that which the noble lord asked the House
of Commons to pronounce. But let me for a moment en-
deavour to show your lordships how reckless is tho lan-
guage which the present Prime Minister has deemed it not
unfit to use, and how totally he must have neglected to
look into any source of information by means of which he
could arrive at a knowledge of the real facts of the case.
He went on to say, on the occasion to which I allude—
" I cannot but believe that friendly, firm, but temperate
language would have induced Austria to pause, and to ab-
stain from that act of aggression which, in the opinion of
the noble lord at the head of the Government, removed her
from the position of a dignified conciliator to that of a crimi-
nal. It is plain Austria was alleging that her treaty rights
in Lombardy and Venice were to be invaded. The Govern-
ment might then have fairly said, 'Go into Congress. Let
all the great Powers of Europe assemble, and we will stand
by you in negotiation in maintaining your unquestionable
treaty rights ; but do you and France consent to withdraw
all military interference and all improper administrative in-
fluence from countries which are not your own. Free the
South of Italy from military occupation and from dictation
to Governments, and let the Italians and their Govern-
ments deal with each other as independent nations in-
variably do.'"
That is the course which the present Prime Minister
thinks we ought to have adopted. That is the language
which he thinks we ought to have used, and what will
your lordships say when I tell you that it is almost verba-
tim the very language which we did employ ? (Cheers.)
On the 13th of January last I wrote to Lord A. Loftus, her
Majesty's Minister at Vienna, in the following terms :
" Your lordship will frankly tell Count Buol that should
such a struggle as we deprecate be the result of the present
estrangement between France and Austria,
England would
remain a neutral spectator of the contest, andin that n
ease would public opinion in this country render it possible
for her to assist Austria as against her own subjects, if the
contest assumed the aspect of a revolution of her Italian
provinces against her Government. The public opinion in
ngland has a natural tendency to sympathise with Italian
nationalities, but her Majesty's Government believe that
those sympathies would not be aroused to any active form
against Austria, unless Austria put herself patently in the
wrong, and either became an aggressor or gave France or
Sardinia a fair excuse for beginning a war. Her Majesty's
Government do not deny that Austria has cause for un-
easiness in Italy, but they maintain that it cannot be miti-
gated or removed by plunging into war with France or Sar-
dinia. If Austria and France could be induced to take a
Joro,.,seatimate not only of their own political interests, but
course which would most effectually contribute to
the happiness
of the Italian populations throughout the
whole extent of
feel that the work peninsula, her Majesty's Government
would be already half-accomplished, and
- the rest of Europe,
to the future, would only instead of looking forward with anxiety
prospect at length °pealtulate itself on the
have to-con,
unstained by deeds of visa to them of Italian regeneration
Now, in those few short aler and bloodshed:
that nothing could induce uettees
Lombardy against her own sub' plainly told Austria
subjects,
her in maintaining
the• strongest terms possible —exactly
and urged upon her in
lord at the head of the Government noble
done—the expediency of entering ought to have
that which the
into we
France as to the best course to b adopted with the view of
some agreement with
contributing to the happiness of the
Italian States.
(Cheers.) Now, with respect to treaties
which I held in writing to Lord Cowley treaties, the
h ie .
January was this :
a2n6guth agof
e
" The unceasing advice of her Majesty's Government to
r
Austria has been to keep str ctly within the limits of ties
to avoid all causes of offence to her Italian neie:hbouesas„;
relax; as far as possible, all rigour towards her Italian
jects ; and to adopt towards France a friendly and concilia_
tory policy."
Yet in the face of all this, the noble lord at the head of the
Government says that we threatened France and Sardinia,
while we patronized Anstria and held out hopes to her that
we would support her against France. (Hear, hear.) We
also said to Austria, "Let all the great powers of Europe
assemble in Congrese, and we will stand by you in the ne-
gotiations which ma, take place," thus using the very lan-
guage which the noble lord says we ought to have adopted.
Again, I wrote in these terms to Lord A. Loftus on the
30th of March:—
"Her Majesty's Government entreat the Austrian Go-
-vernment not to approach this Congress with distrust and
reluctance, but to take the lead in its formation, and, when
formed, In its deliberations. It will find in her Majesty's
Government a sincere ally, anxious to relieve it from un-
fair pressure, and to maintain its rights."
Yet it was on these statements that the noble lord thought
proper to base the accusation that we were unfit to hold the
reins of office which he made against us in another place.
(Hear, hear.) Your lordships will, I trust, not think that
I have acted unbecomingly in calling your attention at the
earliest possible moment to the subject, and repudiating the
charge whichthe noble lord has brought a.g.'ainstll.3. (Cheers.)
I shall not trespass upon your lordships' time by comment-.
ins upon the language which was used on the samesubj ect by
another eminent member of the Government—I mean the
noble lord the member for London. He spoke in rrtsuc,.h the same
spirit as his noble colleague, though the terms in which he
expressed himself were not quite so strong. I base my de-
fence on the papers which have been laid on yoi u lordships'
table. (Cheers.) I may, however, be permitted before I sit
down to put a question to my noble friend oppo site. was
strut :k this morning by a passage in a speech 'b.ich is said
to ha sve been made by aright hen. baronet a ni4 ember of the
Gov( )rnment to his constituents at Halifax. lEt is not the
first , time that the right hon. baronet, when , occupying
an a nalogoyis position, has exhibited less the in might be
deerr tail desirable of that quality of reticene w hich is sup-
posed to be peculiarly well adapted to a newly treated Mi-

sister when taking his first step in that capacity. The rigs.
hon. baronet has gone further than the noble lord the Secre
tary for Foreign Affairs. He is reported to have said:—
" We have seen recent accounts that in a large portion of.
Germany a strong spirit prevails by which they seem dis-
posed almost to engage in hostilities. I hope atm trust their
own good sense, aided by our advice,: which we have given
them since we came into power, will induce them to abstain
frora hostilities."
Some of the members of the present Government have
taken two or three occasions to declare that they intended
to assume an attitude of rigid neutrality, and I understand
that such is the interpretation which is to be put upon the
statement which my noble friend opposite has made this
evening: I wish, therefore, without further remark to call
your lordships' attention to the step which, if the right hon.
baronet the member for Halifax be correctly reported, has
been already taken by her Majesty's Ministers. It is a stlate
ep,
my lords, which goes further than anything which the
Government did, and seems to me to be the first move to-
wards leaving a position of absolute and complete neutrality.
(Cheers.) Her Majesty's late advisers most carefully ab-
stained from giving Germany any advice with respect to
her conduct in taking hostile measures or refraining from
them. We confined ourselves advisedly and purposely to
telling the Prussian Government and the Governments of
the other German States, that if they went to war at pre-
sent, before the Confederation assembled, they must not
expect the slightest assistance from her Majesty's Govern-
ment. We thought it right and fair to tell them so,
because there prevailed no doubt in Germany a hope and
delusion which went so far as make the peofple of that
country believe that her Majesty's Government would
lend their aid to Germany in case she enterekupoti
a war. The language which we used, however,
is
quite a different thing from advising Germany not to judge
for herself, and not to make war, even though she may deem
it to be necessary to her safety. (Hear, hear.) The result
of such a course may be that you may find yourselves com-
mitted by a moral obligation hereafter to support her, inas-
much as the people of Germany may turn round upon you,
and say, "If you had left us alone, we should not be in
this scrape. (Hear, hear.) It is upon these grounds that
I think the statement made by the right hon. baronet the
member for Halifax possesses a degree of importance whicd
-
h
at first blush it may not seem to wear. My object in allu
ing to the statement was to show your lordships that it is
should f some consequence, and, if it be not indiscreet, I
be very glad to know whether that statement is cor-
rect or not.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—No one can feel surprised
that the noble lord should have taken advantage of the
forms of the house to defend himself from accusations
made against him in the performance of the duties which
lately devolved upon him at the Foreign-office. At the
same time I am sure your lordships, as well as my noble
friend, will agree with me that upon this occasion it is un-
advisable, not only for any member of the Government,
but, I think, for any member on either side of this house,
to enter at length into the questions in the blue-book, con
sidering that a notice has been given which will bring -on
a full discussion of those questions so early as to-morrow
week. (Hear, hear.) Although Iby no means deprecate
such a discussion, I am certain your lordships will concur
with me in the opinion that these subjects can never be
debated without some risk to the public service—(hear, hear)
—can never be discussed, even in the temperate atmosphere
of this house, without giving rise to language which may,
and in all probability will, endanger the future attempts of
the Government to restore the peace that has been so
unhappily broken. (Hear, hear.) If, therefore, I do not
refer to what has fallen from my noble friend, he must not
think there is any disregard of his position by the present
Government, and I am certain when this discussion takes
place that he will find every member of thr Ministry
disposed to do him ample justice, and that no attempt
will be made to represent the house and the country any
other than an anxious desire on the part of my noble friend
and his colleagues to preserve peace so far as it was pos-
sible to do so by any efforts of theirs. (Hear, hear.) My
noble friend has enjoyed within the last few days a privi-
lege which has been wanting to me—l mean leisure to read
election speeches. Until, therefore, he quoted just now the
speech of my right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood), I was not
aware of the words which are said to have fallen from him,
and I am not able to state whether they are accurately re-
ported. Probably the report is perfectly accurate. If so,
I can only say that the despatch which must have been
alluded to does not bear the construction which my noble
friend deprecates, and that whenever the papers are laid
before the house it will be found that we have not exposed
ourselves to the dangers which he has very rightly pointed
out. (Hear.) Allow me to say a word or two upon what
fell from the noble duke (Rutland). He seems to fear,
owing to what has fallen from the Foreign Secretary, that
there is a difference of opinion between my noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) and the President of the Council as re-
gards the maintenance of a fair, an honest, and entire neu-
trality. Now it may be perfectly true that my noble friend
4 considers that Austria is to blame for the commencement
of the war. Contrary opinions on this point have often been
expressed by members of both houses. I will not say
whether such opinions are prudent or otherwise ; perhaps
the more carefully they are avoided the better ; but the
noble duke goes too far when he endeavours to deduce from
such opinions that the person who expresses them will take
a partisan view of events which are now transpiring.
(Hear.) I can assure your lordships that not only my noble
friends, but every member of the Government agree in their
determination to maintain a strict and entire neutrality.
Without asking who began the war, our object will be to
hold the balance fairly between the belligerents, so that at
the earliest opportunity, consistently with that neutrality,
and with the objects which my noble friend has already
explained, we may be able to step forward as mediators in
this unhappy quarrel. (Hear, hear.) As to the noble
duke's anxiety lest two offices in the Ministry should not
be filled up, I may relieve that anxiety in ono particular,
because there is every prospect that the gentleman to whom
ho alludes will not only continue a member of the Govern-
ment, but will again become, within a few hours, a member
of the House of Commons. With regard to Mr. Cobden, I
cannot tell what answer, if any, has been sent by him to
Lord Palmerston; but if Mr. Cobden joins the present Go-
vernment—and I sincerely hope he will—l can assure the
noble duke he will join it with the full knowledge that
Ministers intend to maintain and strengthen the defences
of this country, and not to relax, but, if necessary, to in •
crease the efforts made by their predecessors with that end.
(Hear.) Whatever happens, yourlordshipsmay rest assured
that with a view to the important part which in all proba-
bility we shall be called upon to play, whether of a peace-
ful kind or otherwise, the defences of the country will not
be neglected.llllMoreover, as regards the speech which has
been quoted, the noble duke, I think, will find that there is
nothing inconsistent in a gentleman, who believes there is
no fear of invasion, nevertheless taking every precaution to
prevent the possibility of invasion, and to repel it if at-
tempted. (Hear, hear,) Few men regard invasion as pro-
bable ; but there is not one of your lordships, and there are
very few in the country, who do not believe it is the para-
mount duty of England at this moment to strengthen her
defences, and to be prepared for every emergency. (Cheers.)
Lord HOWDEN thought that the opinion of Parliament
on the present state of affairs abroad could not be known
too soon either here or upon the continent. He trusted that
the observations which he was about to offer would not be
deemed unwise or very indiscreet. In the present conjunc-
ture it was the duty of every one to speak plainly; and if
England had done so in the beginning, might not this ini-
quitous war have been avoided ? On the first night of the
session he had called attention to a startling declaration
which had appeared in the manifesto of the Emperor of the
French. Possibly the phrase might have been inserted
because it looked well to the eye and sounded well
to the ear, which was a very common reason for much that
was said, done, and written in a neighbouring country. He
had received from the then Government no explanation as
to that phrase, but he hoped the present Ministry would
try to discover whether that startling declaration meant
anything or not. Having himself as much at heart as any
man living the independence of Italy—the real, practical
independence of the whole c n
out, and not a plumate=
goria evoked for the purpose of the hour—he was glad to be
able to raise his voice humbly but loudly against the very
unholy means taken to arrive at a very holy end. He did
not cone= with those who maintained in this case that the
end justified the means. Every Englishman was in favour
of the Italian cause and wished it well, but he had not
heard a single person.in this country approve the means by
which it was to be advanced. In his belief, that cause was
adopted with no more fixed and definite view than to give,
as circumstances might permit, additional prestige to the
arms of France. What would follow ? A proportionate de-
crease in that legitimate influence which England ought to
have not only over the future destinies of Italy, but over
the progress of real liberalism in all parts of the world. It
appeared from the recently-published blue-book that so late
as the end of February Lord Cowley did not believe in war,
because, as he stated in his despatch, no preparations were
made in France for it. That France was not quite ready
when she marched into Italy ; that the Emperor Napoleon,
like a lady in an interesting situation, was Somewhat out
in his reckoning, might be true enough ; but he who lived in
Paris was at a loss to understand how any man, however
amiable and disposed to believe everything he was told,
could bring his mind to the conviction that France had not
resolved upon war. He believed that the determination of
France was taken long before tho month of February, but
still, when he heard Italy claiming the Emperor Napo-
leon as its liberator and regenerator, he could not help
saying that he had great doubts whether, at the bottom of
his very capricious mind, his Majesty ever intended or ex-
pected the real liberation of Italy, however large or magni-
ficent might be the device which he had inscribed upon his
banner. Lord Cowley stated in one of his despatches that
when, in 1857, certain reforms expected to be efficacious
were proposed to be introduced into Italy through the joint
influence of France and Austria, they were allowed to fall
to the ground by France; and he observed from the blue-
book that the representations which were subsequently
made to the Cabinet of the Tuileries upon that point met
with a very discouraging and lukewarm reception. (Hear.)
That the Emperor Napoleon intended to do something with
the Austrian States he had not the least doubt ; but what
was to become of Imperial Rome, or of the kingdom of
Naples ? He believed that in the latter country great pains
the Preach
as the northiPof
were taken to ascertain whether any feeling existed in fa-
vour of the Murals; but it was found that, according to
efficacious reforele
attempt to o
proverb, le jeu ne vaut pas la chandelle, and
en Naples to French influence in thesame way
taw was abandoned. Anything like an
by a body in France
under the
siderable part of the
in the Papal States would be prevented
obligations,gretZacte to whom the Emperor Napoleon was
to whom he owed a con-
out of the electoral
six or seven millions of votes that came
urn in his favour and from whose in-
fluence he was by no
there were not underhand Be did not say that
intrimues, dark machinations.
me
and anonymous incitements to addressed to the
of the Pope; on th© ani.3 free.
things were going on at the present moment, sub-
jects revolt
contrary he was sure that such
assured that little or no change
but he felt
place in Rome and the Papal Staten,
be owed to take
so-called
liberation of apart of Northern and that the
."a137 would only serve to
plunge those magnificent regione, if
not into deeper dark-
ness, at least into deeper disappointment and despair.
(Hear, hear.) Dangerous, and even ;I'tlieuleus, as it was to
prophecy in times like the present, he knew well what
would happen to England as the result of the iniquitous
war now raging in Italy. At some period—probably an
early one—England would interfere with a View
to stop
hostilities and to prevent a further effusion of blood, She
would honestly and frankly offer her good offices, and then
by that unfortunate fiat of fate which seemed to attend her,
by that curiosa infelicitas which had always been here, she
would make herself even more odious than she now was to
all parties. (A laugh.) If she failed she would compromise
her position as a treat power; if she succeeded it would
be said from one end of the Peninsula to the other that had
it not been for selfish and perfidious Albion, only alive to
her own grovelling interests and the dispersion of cotton,
all Italy would have been free, and she would be :loused of

having ruined all those ncta
deve-
'opement and protection
raseld and elaborated
liberty—the Tuft--
peration of the-: ;
and of out 'finificent schemes for the
o?nationalities which were orga-
;- n that region so propitious to human
les- at Paris. (A laugh.) All the vitu-
peration in Italy,. of the Reds in France,
-t. rucvn Radicals would fall upon England, while
all the_ '..4.0n0ur attaching to projects which were never in-
tenabd'to he executed would be given to France. (Hear.)
In the name of God, however, let us have peace, no matter
hw obtflined, but at the same time he hoped that no en-
courage, ment would be given to what, he feared, was on the
cards--4 a prolonged occupation of Italy by France under the
preteno eof negotiation. He believed that when Napoleon
marche d his army into Italy nothing was wanting for
the lit ,eration of that country but the retirement of
I the Fr ench and Austrian troops from places which they
never c sight to have entered, and the removal of the injuri-
ous inf ,uence which Austria had so long exercised in Tus-
cany as id other States. It was very remarkable that we did
not know why so good a proposal—a proposal which would
have lib ()rated the whole, and not a part of Italy, and libe-
rated it, .moreover, without the smallest risk of retrocession
—was twit carried' out. An honest, conscientious Govern-
ment in Sk irdin, mindful of its own affairs and of God's
commandment niaot to covet what did not belong to it—(a
laugh)—wo,uld have quietly but impressively held out its
system as a i nodel for present Italy to contemplate and for
future Italy to attain. An honest and constitutional regime
in France—tivtt country which, from its rare position, and
according to its government, must always be either the curse
or the regenerator of Europe—a constitutional government
in France, protectittg, but not exciting Sardinia, would have
allowed the wise ex ample of a constitutional system to win
its way to the heart a of kings and of subjects, and would
have attached itself to the institutions of this free country
by a natural and dur able alliance, for, thank God, from the
force of things, and b y a law superior to the temporary con-
venience of one man, no alliance of a really permanent cha-
racter could subsist between lib9rty and despotism. Thus
England and France might have given freedom to the
world. It was this quiet but infallible action that would
have encouraged struggling races and raised drooping na-
tionalities. It would ham) done so righteously as well as
peacefully. Such a process would hare pleased all the wise
reformers of all abuses of power in all parts of the earth,
although it might not and could not please the wild ambi-
tion and rash desires of those who were equally above the
real interests and the wholesome opinions of mankind.
(Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped'.
Their lordships adjourned shortly after half-past 6 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMIVIONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The house re-assembled for the first time since the ad-
journment on last Tuesday week, when the SPEAKER took
the chair at four o'clock.
RE-ELECTION OF MINISTERS.
The following Ministers took the oaths and their seats
on re-election .—Lord Palmerston, Lord John Russell,
Mr. Cardwell, Sir George Cornewall Lewis, Sir Geo. Grey,
Mr. Lowe, Sir It. Bethell, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Hugessen, Sir
C. Wood, Mr. Fitzroy, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. Whitbread, Sir
IL Keating, Mr. Headlam, Sir W. Dunbar, and Mr. Sid
ney Herbert.

upon that subject at thepresent moment. Events may occur
which may render-it necessary that that session should be
held earlier than the accustomed period. There may be
considerations which may lead in the other direction, but
upon that point I beg the house to understand that we re-
serve it to ourselves to state at some future period of the
present session what our views and intentions may be. We
shall therefore proceed at once with the business which is
before us. Some of the estimates will have to be considered
and voted by the house. There will be the budget of my
right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be
stated and considered ; there may probably be measures
consequent upon that budget, and there may be other mea-
sures of minor importance which we may think it our duty
to propose ; but that amount of business will probably, I
think certainly occupy all the remaining portion of the
summer during which it is possible for us to expect' such an
attendance of members as will enable us to deliberate upon
measures of importance. I will not trespass further on the
attention of the house except to say that, considering how
late the session is, and how important it is that the business
usually called the business of the Government, though
really the business of the country, should be proceeded with
as rapidly as possible, it is my intention to propose on a
future day that Thursdays, beginning with this day fort-
night, shall be Order days, instead of, as usual, being No-
tice days. That is an arrangement that is usually made
towards the latter part of the session ; and I trust that,
under the circumstances, those who may have notices on
the paper for this day fortnight will offer no opposition to
the proposal which I shall make. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to.
THE NATIONAL DEFENCES.
Sir C. NAPIER said that he would not give his sup-
port to the Government unless he received from them a dis-
tinct statement as to what they proposed to do with refer •
ence to the national defenses, which at present were not in
a state of efficiency. He advised th 3 Government to follow
in the footsteps of the late Government, who were entitled
to the gratitude of the country for their aouduct in refer-
ence to this matter. He would not press the matter further,
but would on an early oecesion draw the attention of the
Government to the subject,
Lord PALMERSTON rose to reply, but,
The SPEAKER 'decided that the hon, and gallant mem-
ber was not in order, not having brought forward a motion.
The subject then dropped.
CONVENTION WITH THE KING OF PORTUGAL.
Lord J: RUSSELL laid on ilia table a copy of this con-
vention.
CRIMINAL STATUTE LAW CONSOLIDATION.
Mr. WHITESIDE rose to move for leave to bring in a
bill to consolidate and amend the criminal statute law of
England and Ireland. The Statute Law Commissionershad
given much attention to this subject, but in their delibera-
tions they found themselves involved in one or two diffi-
culties. The first of these was whether they should not only
consolidate but also amend the Law ; and the second was
whether their measures should or should not extend to Ire-
land. Now, he held that the difficulties would only be in-
creased by having one set of statutes for England and ano-
ther for Ireland. The lath Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he
might observe, had given it distinctly as his opinion, that
there should be one set of statutes for both countries. In a
communication addressed to the Secretary of the Statute
Law Commissien he said:—
" I think the Irish statutes ought to be overhauled, with
the view of confolidating them as much as possible with the
corresponding English Acts. We have about 2,263 Irish
Acts before the Union; then under Poyning's Act (10
Henry VII., c. 22) we have to import English Acts ; and by
the Bth Edward IV., cap. 1, and 21 and 22 George 111.,
cap. 48, English Acts are extended to Ireland. Since the
Union there have been passed about 1,300 statutes exclu-
sively relating to Ireland, so that, in addition to the early
and the Post-Union Laws which extend to both countries,
there are upwards of 3,560 statutes peculiar to Ireland. I
believe it to bnpracticable to have one set of statutes for
both countries, which would regulate most matters proper
for legislation, though there are important exceptional sub-
jects which, on principles of sound policy, ought still to b.
dealt with by special and separate legislation. '
A paper was submitted to the late Cabinet for the purpose
of having the opinion of the Cabinet onthe manner in which
the work should be effected. A sight hon. friend of his had
an interview with the Cabinet and their assent was obtained
to the principle of the measures. First with regard to the
punishment of death. Blackstone enumerated 160 capital
felonies which were formerly visited withdeath. Finally the
punishment of death was reduced to 12 offences, and it was
for the late Cabinet to decide whether the punishment of
death should be abolished in the case of any, and which
of these offences. The result was that the late Cabinet
decided to propose the abolition of the punishment of
death in all cases save for the offences of treason and
murder. Opportunities had arisen for the carrying out
'of effective secondary punishment which did not
formerly exist—(hear, hear)—and from the time that
the Criminal Law Commissioners recommended the aboli-
tion of the punishment of death fer the crime of rape it was
extremely difficult to maintain this punishment for any
offences against the person not accompanied by death. It
was proposed in the same bill to deal with the crime of con-
spiracy to murder. This offence was capital in Ireland and
not capital in England. He had been asked whether he
would not assimilate the laws of the two countries. Consi-
dering that Ireland had been handed over to the present
Government M a condition that it had never been in before
—in a state of great prosperity and profound tranquillity—
he was of opinion that in this particular instance, as in
several others, exceptional laws might be abolished, and he
therefore proposed by this bill to abolish the punishment of
death for the offence of conspiracy to murder. It was gene-
rally felt that when death did not result the criminal might
be allowed to get the benefit of not having carried his crime
into execution. Wherever the conspiracy to murder was
proved it would be in the power of the Judge to pass a
severe penalty, but he might, if he thought fit, reduce the
punishment to an imprisonment for four years. There was
the ease of a conspiracy to murder her Majesty's Ministers
at a dinner at Lord Harrowby's. No doubt, such a conspi-
racy might be' a very gross offence, but the Crown was
more likely to gain a conviction when the punishment was
reasonable and moderate. The crime of forgery was conso-
lidated by the English statute law in the time of William
IV. In Ireland the laws relating to forgery had never been
consolidated, and there were now 45 acts of Parliament re-
lating to that crime. But, as the offence and the punish-
ment ought to be the same in England, Ireland, and Scot-
land, there was no real difficulty in amending the acts, in
applying the same law to both countries, and in clear-
ing the statute-book of forty or fifty acts of Parliament.
With regard to the Procedure Bill, if the crimes were
the same, to have two modes of procedure was very
unnecessary. All the procedure laws commencing with
those relating to the issuing of commissions to judges
from the time of King Edward the First to Queen
Victoria had been overhauled and systematised, and the
present would be a complete Procedure Bill for both coun-
tries. It would be found to be a very readable Bill, but
there were only two clauses that deserved the attention of
the house. These were clauses six and seven, declaring
what was to be done in cases formerly punished by forfei-
ture of goods and chattels and confiscation of land. It was
said that confiscation of land was the corner-stone of the
classification of crimes by the law of England. When Sir
M. Hale wrote, almost every crime was a felony. But Mr.
Amos had published an interesting work entitled the "Ruins
of Time" to prove the ruins time had made in the composi-
tions of Sir M. Hale. While he admitted that the late
Cabinet did not decide in favour of the abolition of the for-
feiture of lands and that confiscation should be abolished,
he in his individual character felt at liberty to urge the abo-
lition of thi§ penalty. Take the case of Sir W. Raleigh.
The King first cut off his head and then took his estate for
his favourite. When Lady Raleigh asked for the restora-
tion of Sherborne Castle, the erudite Scotchman re-
plied, " I mun hae it for Carr," which being translated
meant, " I must have it for Kerr " (A laugh.) The law
ought to be satisfied with the life of the victim, without
punishing his innocent family. He was present at the
trial of Mr. Smith O'Brien for treason. The Crown might
have taken his life, but on what prineiple of justice could
the law have taken his estate from his eldest son,---a man:of
the highest talent and every virtue? He admitted it might
be rejoined that confiscation was still the law of this coun-
try, but he had lately been reading the arguments urged
by Sir Samuel Romilly on this point, and they reminded
him of the conversation between the Emperor Joseph and
the Chancellor of the Austrian empire. The Emperor was
reported to have asked his Chancellor whether he had read
the essay of Beccaria. "I have, Sire," was the reply.
" Can you answer, it ?" "No Sire." " Then act upon it,"
said the Emperor. Mr. Amos, in the book that he had
quoted, said,—
" On the general principle of confiscation it may be ob-
served that it is open to the gravest objections. Sir M.
Hale, indeed, does not offer any opinion concerning its im-
policy,or inhumanity, and Blackstone labours to prove wha4
he terms the natural justice' of confiscation for treason.
The first pattern for confiscation is supposed to have been
given to the world by Sylla the Dictator. Among the prin-
cipal objections to confiscation may be reckoned that the
penalty is in many cases excessive and disproportioned to the
nature and extent of offences ; that it is unequal in its appli-
cation to different offenders, being graduated not according
to the gravity of an offence, but the magnitude and descrip-
tion of the offender's estate ; that it usually involves the
misery and utter ruin of the innocent families of offenders.
Livingstone, Dumont, and Bentham have written cogently
against forfeitures, but nowhere, perhaps, are they more elo-
quently reprobated than in the following extract from a
speech of Sir S. Itomilly. He says All confiscations
forming part of a sentence by which death is inflicted are
founded, in my opinion, upon the greatest injustice. To
confiscate the property of the criminal whose life is left un-
touched is to take from him the means by which the enjoy-
ments and comforts of life are supplied; but if the law de-
prives him of life also the forfeiture can only affect those
whom he leaves behind him. Upon them alone the punish-
ment falls, and, if the offender be at all affected by it, it is
only. as he may feel and be afflicted for them. Almost all
punishments, indeed, extend beyond the criminal against
whom they are directed. The greatest criminals have often
deserving relations and connexions who sympathise in their
sufferings, and who, though perfectly innocent, thus endure
a part of the punishment; but this arises from the necessary
imperfections in all human institutions ; in the law, how-
ever, of forfeiture this, which is an unavoidable evil, but
which all wise legislatures would, if it were possible, avoid,
is the very principle upon which the law proceeds. The
direct punishment is inflicted on the innocent, and it is by
sympathy alone that the guilty is affected, if he be at all
affected by it. To the most obdurate and hardened it is no
punishment at all ;to the less criminal—to those whose
minds are not callous to all sense of virtue and of humanity,
if to any, it can operate as a punishment. You choose for
the instrument of your moral tortures the best feelings of
the human heart, and aggravate and enhance your punish-
ment in proportion as the subject of it is less an object of
detestation."
Those were arguments which it was impossible to answer,
and, therefore, he now proposed to abolish the penalty of
confiscation of land for crimes to which it now applied.
What was the case in respect of felony? There was an
instance of a man at Salisbury being convicted of felony
for stealing one penny, and all his goods were forfeited.
The bishop, however, claimed the chattels, and, being a
just man, he divided the property among the most deserv-
ing relatives. Thus, too, the Sovereign never actually took
the produce of a feton's property, but left it to the law
officers to decide to whom it should be given. As long as
almost all felonies were capital, he could understand the
value of 'a distinction, but now, when many misdemeanours
were more heinous than some felonies, the case was differ-
ent. The change suggested by these Bills would be a con-
siderable improvement, and in proposing these measures
he wished to be understood as not at all blaming the Statute
Law Commission for not having done so—it being, in fact,
out of their power. He thought the late Government had
acted wisely in, endeavouring to prepare Bills relating to
the criminal law of both countries. Such was the scope of
the measures which he proposed to . introduce, and he
availed himself of the opportunity of thanking his learned
friends, and especially the late Attorney-General and the
right hon. and learned member for the Cambridge 'Culver-

city (Mr. Walpole) for the frank and earnest manner in
.which they had_considered the subject. He should hand
over these measures to the present Government, having no
doubt that the law officers would give the subject their,
most careful attention, and, if approved by the Govern-
ment, they might be assured of every assistance which he
could- render in passing these measures. The right hon.
and learned gentleman concluded by moving for leave to
introduce several bills consolidating the criminal law of
England and Ireland.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it wasnot his inten-
tion to offer any opposition to the motion, but rather to
tender his thanks to the right hon. gentleman for the atten-'
tion and labour he had bestowed upon the subject. It was,
however, requisite that the attention of the house should be
called to another matter connected with the subject, upon
which it was high time some determination should be ar-
rived at. The house was asked to receive bills proposing
to consolidate the whole of the criminal law of England and
Ireland. That was a simple proposition that they should
at one blow abrogate the whole existing law, and receive a
new enactment in place of those which they now had. He
wished the house to consider what means there were of
assuring to them that there would be no alteration in the
law effected by these bills, and that the new enactments
would amount to nothing more (with the particular excep-
tion he had mentioned) than a re-enactment of antece-
dent laws It was impossible that the House of Commons
should take such a leap in the dark. In one particular—
that relating to the forfeiture to the Crown—he concurred
in the sentiments expressed by the right hon. and learned
gentleman, He had long felt as a law officer the great mis-
chief and inconvenience arising from the forfeiture of goods
and chattels and land. lie concurred in the sentiments of
humanity and justice that had been quoted in order to in-
duce the house to consent toad alteration of the criminal law
in that respect, but it was a serious thing to ask the house
to accept a consolidation statute, being utterly unable to
undertake the duty of examining that statute in order to
ascertain whether or not it was a siMple embodiment of the
existing law, or whether they were not incurring the
risk •f enacting a change in the law. For that rea-
son he, as an individual, had long ago suggested to the house
the absolute neeessity of establishing a department of justice,
comprising men whose boundeu duty it should be to examine
into these subjects,who should be respensible.and who should
undertake the slaty of examination in a manner different to
that of the Statute Law Commission, and upon whose
credit and faith all measures of consolidation should be in-
troduced to Parliament, The house was aware that the
statutes if gathered together—even if the very same words
were used—might by a different arrangement or alteration
in the preamble be made totally different to the existing law.
We had had for several years a Statute Law Commission,
but, with the exception of some bills laid upon the table
upon the day before tip.e dissolution of the last Parliament
by the late Attorney-General, that commission had not
produced a single measure. (Hear.) If anything was to b 3
done it was highly desirable that the grave and important
measure of consolidation should be committed to persons
who wore responsible to that house. No doubt great assist-
ance was rendered by hon. and learned gentlemen who laid
upon the table bills, which were the result of their labour
and consideration, but the house ought to have some per-
son responsible for the preparation of such measures. The
late Attorney-General had laid upon the table before the
dissolution seven bills, which, except as to one particular,
were similar to these now sought to be introduced. That
showed the uncertain and unsatisfactory manner in which
such subjects were dealt with at present. It was un-
doubtedly necessary that something should be done, but he
entered his protest against a simple consolidation bill being
brought in upon the authority of an individual member,
however eminent he might be, in order that the house
should enter into an examination of that bill, together with
the whole body of statute law. It was no doubt true that
the graver the duty the more important it was that it should
be performed in a proper manner, but any piecemeal legis-
lation was, in fact, however meritorious, but a delusion,
putting off the performance of a duty that must be per-
formed some day in a different manner. Therefore, although
he must offer the highest praise to the right hon. gentleman
for the attention and labour he had devoted to the subject,
still he could not pledge himself to approve the mode in
which it was proposed to deal with this important matter.
Mr. MALINS observed that the system of consolidation
involved this difficulty—that it was impossible to pass the
consolidated enactment through the house, unless the
house were prepared to take the enactment on trust. It
was improper and incredible that that should ever be done ;
but he was surprised that the Attorney-General only pointed
out this difficulty in order to mount a hobby of his own.
The hon. and learned gentleman admitted that the house
ought not to take these measures on trust, and then went
on to say that a certain body ought to dictat% to the house
the measures to be passed, and that body was to be the de-
partment of justice.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the hon. and
learned gentleman had forgotten that the house passed a
resolution that it was expedient that there should be a de-
partment of justice for this express purpose.
Mr. MALINS said that resolution was passed in a very
thin house, and he thought it his duty at the time to protest
against that which he deemed a mere theory, and which
never could be brought into action. The resolution passed
three years ago, and the experience of the three years showed
that his opinion was well founded ; for nothing had been
done since upon it. The resolution had proved a mere
barren resolution, and he ventured to predict that nothing
would ever come of it ; for if the house would not trust
those responsible officers, the Lord High Chancellor of
England, and the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, whose
duty it was to submit law measures to Parliament, was it
to be supposed that it would trust the same individuals as-
sembled together under another name ? (Hear.) He re-
peated what he had formerly stated, that the Lord Chan-
cellor, with the assistance of the law officers of the Crown,
were the proper persons to propose such measures of law
reform as were to be submitted to both Houses of Parlia-
ment by the Government of the day, and the change in the
business, which the Lord Chancellor used to perform, would
now enalele that functionary to give, when Parliament was
not sitting, much of his attention to measures of legal re-
form. He could not allow his hon. and learned friend to
propagate this idea about the necessity of a department
of justice without rising to offer his protest against it.
The hon. and learned member for Suffolk, about four
years ago, said he would submit 18 bills to the house,
and that, in 18 months, the statute law of England would
be consolidated. He had ventured to say that that would
not be effected in 18 years, nor as long as any man then
lived. The whole proceeded on an erroneous principle.
What did the hon. and learned member state last session ?
That he was prepared to lay 93 bills on the table of the
house. In what period did the hon. and learned member
expect to pass those 93 bills ? Did he expect that the house
would pass them without examination ? and, if the house
examined them, how many weeks or years would it take to
pass these 93 bills? (Hear, hear.) He quite agreed that
it was discreditable to have one state of the law in England
and another in Ireland ; but he wished to point out the
difficulties attending any attempt to carry into effect those
mere theories.
Mr. L. KING observed that since the Attorney-General
was last in office the Statute Law Commission had been
annihilated, and now there was an opportunity, he hoped,
not for another job, but for a more practical commission or
body of men to set to work to reform the law. He wished
to ask the late Attorney-General for Ireland whether the
bills he had moved to introduce were not precisely the same
as had been over and over again submitted to the house,
and never passed into a law ? Was it creditable the way
in which things had been going on. The late Statute
Law Commission expended £23,000 or £24,000 without any
result, and the former Commission expended £50,000. He
hoped that the house would take up the question, and pro-
ceed on a fixed plan. He was quite satisfied that the first
step to be taken was to expurgate the Statute-book, and
then to proceed to consolidate. That was the plan proposed
in this house by the present Lord Chief Justice, when At-
torney-General. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOWYER contended that the consolidation of the
statute law was utterly impossible, unless the house, which
by its constitution was unequal of itself to undertake the
duty, would be content to remit its performance to persons
whose studies and qualifications pre-eminently enabled
them to cope with the difficulties with which it was sur-
rounded. He asked how it was possible for a large pro-
miscuous assembly like that house to enter on such an in-
vestigation and sustain it to a successful completion. If
the house could not trust a commission composed of a num-
ber of learned persons to execute the task of consolidation,
was it likely that it would trust its performance to a com-
mittee chosen from among its own members ? (Hear.) The
Attorney-General proposed what he called a Department
of Justice, but it had never yet been decided what that
meant. (Hear.) What the Attorney-General called a De-
partment of Justice was, in fact, a Department of Legisla-
tion, whose duty it would be to draw up bills for the con-
solidation of the law, and afterwards to submit those bills
to Parliament. Was not that the very thing now being
doneby the Statute Law Commissioners ? He would re-
mind the house that in the two most remarkable instances
in history of the consolidation of the law the work had been
done by a commission. He referred to the consolidation of
the Roman law under Justinian and of the French law
under the first Napoleon. The consolidation of the Roman
law under Justinian was conducted by commissioners con-
stituted precisely as our Statute Law Commission now was.
The Roman commissioners might have been more eminent
persons perhaps, and better remunerated ; the work might
have been done in more comprehensive manner than the
kindred one was now proposed to be executed by us, but still
it was dondthrough the intervention of a commission. The
consolidation of the French law under Napoleon I. was
also done by a commission; and afterwards discussed in the
Privy Council, in the presence of the Emperor, precisely
in the manner in which such a scheme might be discussed in
that house. With these two great instances before ahem,
he asked why it should not be possible to constitute a
commission with sufficient powers to investigate the
whole subject of the statute law, then to COMO-
lidate that law into what might be called a node,
arranged under certain heads, and finally for the Govern-
ment to submit it to the consideration of Parliament.
(Hear, hear.) The house was greatly indebted to the late
Attorney- General for Ireland for having grappled with this
subject, and for having introduced the bills under con-
sideration. He (Mr. Bowyer) contended that the house
must make up its mind to take this work upon trust, for,
if they did not, they would only squander large sums of
in printing and in salaries, without obtaining any
money
satisfactory result. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLIER said up to this time the house had been
trying how not to do this work of consolidation. The ques-
tion now was how to do it. (A laugh.) The Statute Law
Commission, composed though it was of very eminent men,
but still men whose duties were various and the demands
on whose energies were manifold, was unequal to the task.
The consolidation of the law required the whole energies of
the ablest men who could be selected for the task. We had
never yet triei the expedient of a Department of Public
Justice, composed of the most eminent men, whose sole and
undivided energy should be devoted to this great work.
Until we adopted that means the task would never be per-
formed, but when we once had recourse to it he had no
doubt that in a few_ our statutes would be consolidated
Sir F. KELLY‘felt that ho owed it both to that house
and to some few individuals without its walls to explain
what was really the present state of this great question of
the consolidation of the statutes, and to endeavour to re-
move some misapprehensions which existed with re(sard to
it. Of the 40 volumes containing the statutes of Great
Britain, not more than four consisted of statutes in force
and operation ; the remaining 30 were filled with Acts of-
Parliament which had expired, or become obsolete, or were
for some reason or other not in force. In addition to this
it must be remembered that the statutes on any given sub-
ject were entirely unconnected, and, therefore, to ascertain
the law upon it you must either study a text book or hunt
through all the statutes from Magna Charta to the present
time. Under these circumstances it was not remarkable
that from the time of Lord Bacon numerous attemnts
should have been made to reduce our statutes into such a
form that what was the law upon any subject might easily
be found upon the statute-book. Hitherto all such
attempts had failed. The Statute Law Commission was
originally appointed in the year 1853. That commission
expired, and in 1854 a new ono was appointed, which,
chiefly under the direction of Lord Cranworth, had con-
tinued its labours with more or less activity to the present
time. Nearly three years ago he stated in that house that
if the plan adopted by the commission was carried into effect
thsas was no reason to doubt that the statute law of En -

land, to which their attention was then confined, might be
consolidated within the space of three years. At the same
time, however, he stated that to the accomplishment of
that: task there would be necessary the cordial co-operation
not only of the law officers of the Crown, but also of the
Government and the Legislature. A plan was proposed to
the commission which had been to a considerable extent

acted upon, and in accordance with which 93 bills were now
ready, or nearly ready, which would consolidate the whole
of the criminal statute law, the whole of the mercantile
statute law, and the whole of the real property statute law.
The first question which arose in the work of consolidation
was whether the Houses of Parliament were to accept any
portion of the work u n trust ; for if the 300 or 400 bills
to which the statutes Irt large might be reduced were to be
debated in committee like ordinary measures of legislation,
the lifetime of the youngest member of that hcuse would
not be long enough for the completion of the work. Sup-
posing, however, the house was disposed to assume that
the bills prepared' under the sanction of learned and emi-
.

nent persons contained a true consolidation and re-enact

meat of the law, the important question arose whether,
concurrently with the consolidation of the statute law, they
should attempt to amend that law. If all the projects for
the amendment of the statute law which might be sug-
gested were to undergo consideration, it must be obvious
that the task could not be half performed during the
life of the youngest member of that assembly. It
was evident either that some scheme must be devised

for submitting to the house bills comprising the consoli-
dation of the statute law, with such amendments as
were likely to be acceded to without any considerable dis-
cussion, or the whole undertaking must be at once and for
ever abandoned. An hon. and learned friend of his on the
opposite side had suggested that the task should be com-
mitted to a Board, or to a department of Justice, who, de.
voting their entire time and attention to the subject, would
be_ able to arrive at a complete consolidation of the•law. He
[

might observe that no blame could be east either upon the
Statute Law Commissioners, or upon the late Government,
or upon the Goverement which had preceded them, on the
ground that no further progress had been made in this
matter. The Statute Law Commission had produced re-
ports and draughts of bills, which it would Wound, when-
ever the proper time for their consideration might arrive, bad
not only laid the foundation of any scheme of consolida-
tion that was practicable, but had totally and for ever re-
moved all the substantial difficulties in the way of th e
complete execution of this great undertaking. He hoped
the time was not far distant when, under the auspices of
his hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General and the
present Government, the task would be undertaken, and it
would then be found that the reports of the Statute Law
Commissioners, together with the expurgation of the sta-
tutes—pointing out all the parts of every statute which
were repealed or expiring—a work now nearly completed,
had reudesed the duty of consolidation comparatively easy.
Neither the Statute Law Commissioners, nor the late
Government, nor the preceding Government, were open
to ()ensure on the ground that more had not already been
accomplished, for bills, eight in number, comprising a
consolidation of the whole criminal statute law of England,
had been prepared under the administration of the noble
lord opposite, and notice after notice was placed upon the
votes by the Solicitor-General of his intention to submit
those measures to the house. When the late Government
acceded to office he (Sir )'. Kelly) undertook to bring for-
ward the same bills with some alterations and amendments,
but the pressure of other business—particularly the India
Bill—rendered it impossible for him to call 'the atten-
tion of the house to the subject last year. He had
endeavoured to bring forward this question this year,
but it was intimated, in a short debate on the subject, that it
would be desirable to assimilate the law of England and
Ireland, and that important task was undertaken by his
right hon. friend the late Attorney-General for Ireland,
with the assistance of the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
and other learned persons in that country. After much dif
ficulty and labour they had succeeded in combining in one
set of bills, eight or nine in number, the complete consoli-
dation of the criminal statute law of the two countries.
These measures had now been submitted to the house by his
right hon. friend, not with any idea that he, no longer a
member of the Government, could carry them through the
house, but in order that the house might see that the sub-
ject had not been overlooked, and that they might be able
to understand the scheme of consolidation emanating origi-
nally with the Statute Law Commission, and which was
now adopted by many of the most eminent and learned law-
yers and statesmen in this country and in Ireland. When
these bills had been considered by the house and by the
Government he hoped they would hear from some member
of the Administration whether this important undertaking
—the consolidation of the statute law—was to be entirely
and for ever abandoned, or was to be at last attempted upon
principles which he hoped would receive the sanction of the
house and the approbation of the public. He would only
express his entire conviction that if his right hon, and
learned friends opposite, supported by Government, would
apply their minds to this great task, they would succeed in
accomplishing it to the satisfaction of Parliament and of
the country.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had heard with surprise
from his hon. and learned friend the member for Walling-
ford the opinion that it was impossible to consolidate the
statute law. Why, the task which his learned friend pro-
nounced to be impossible had been actually and most suc-
cessfully accomplished by the Legislature of New York.
The question really was as to the best mode of proceeding
under the circumstances. The discussion arose upon
the introduction by his right hon. friend opposite of
bills, which, as he understood, were intended to assimilate
the statute laws of England and Ireland. He was of opinion
that the time had come when the statute law, and especially
the criminal law, of the two countries should be as much
as possible assimilated. The late Statute Law Commission
had, he thought, been rather hardly dealt with by his hon.
and learned friend. The Statute Law Commission had gone
on this principle—that the consolidation of the criminal law
should in the first instance be proceeded with in Parliament,
and that if the effort was successful, then they should pro-
ceed with the consolidation of the whole law. In pursuance
of this view, bills were introduced, and paSsed the House of
Lords, and he believed those bills would have passed through
that house also had not a change of Government taken place,
which for the time put an end to legislation on the subject.
He believed that great difficulties would lie in the way of an
assimilation of the statute law of both countries without
previous separate consolidation being carried out. (Hear.)
He concurred with the Attorney-General, however, in giv-
ing his best wishes to the object which the right hon. gentle-
man had in view. He also agreed with him in thinking that
consolidation would never be properly effected till there was
a department—either a minister of justice or some other
functionary or functionaries—which could take up and ac-
complish the task. (Hear, hear.) The proposal for such a
department came from the late Lord Chancellor of Ireland
(Mr Napier), and it was received with favour on both sides
of the house. It was therefore hardly fair on the part of his
hon. and learned friend opposite to tell the Attorney-Gene-
ral that in recommending such a department he was riding
a hobby. If there was a hobby, it was that of the late
Chancellor of Ireland, taken up, however, and approved by
the whole house. (Hear.) He had only to say that, in so
far as he was concerned, it would be his care to promote as
much as lay in his power the object which his right hon.
friend (Mr. Whiteside) had in view. (Hear.)
. Mr. M'MAHON protested against the system of giving
the Crown such an immenae accession of influence and
patronage as was given to it out of the administration of
justice. In this respect the influence of the Crown had in-
. creased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. They
had been paying the Statute Law Commissioners large
• sums of money for years, and what had been the result ?
The bills they brought forward were so wholly indefensible
that no law officer of the Crown would have had the con-
rage to stand up and defend them in that house. There
was no science, no skill, no knowledge shown in them, and
they proved that it was a mere waste of public money to go
on with such a system. He believed that if the duty of
consolidating the statute law was taken up by hon. and
learned members in that house—men responsible to Parlia-
ment and the country—more would be done in a few months
than had been done for years. (Hear, hear.) That, in his
opinion, was the best possible way of consolidating the sta-
tutes, and the sooner the Consolidation of the Statute Law
Commission
was got rid of the better. He saw no neces-
sity for a Department of Justice. In that house there was
always the Attorney and Solicitor General of the present
Government, and the Attorney and Solicitor General of the
past Government, and in the other house there were now
five ex-Chancellors, besides other law lords of eminence.
Tho work ought to be done by these, without imposing any
additional burden on the country. There was no such de-
partment in any country enjoying a constitutional Govern-
ment, and the house ought at once to scout the idea.
Mr. WHITESIDE, in reply, said that these bills were
not the crude productions of one man. They had been
drawn up in Ireland, then submitted to the Home Secre-
tary and the law officers in this country, and afterwards
discussed and decided on by the Cabinet. The hon. mem-
ber for Surrey objected to loading the statute-book with
new statutes, but he entirely forgot or passed over the fact
that these 12 bills would get rid of no less than 264 statutes.
The Attorney .General recommended the house to wait un-
til the new Department of Justice was established, but he
would find it rather more difficult to induce the house to
agree to that plan than he expected. (Hear.) He himself
agreed with those who maintained that the work ought
to be done by the Lord Chancellor for the time being,
and certainly with so many men of eminent abilities in the
other housa, who had devoted so much time to the subject
of law reform, there was no need to increase the public bur-
dens by the creation of any such separate department. To
pass some such measures as he had prepared would redound
to the credit of any administration, and if the Attorney-
General would adopt and improve his bills he should have
his best thanks.
Mr. SLANEY believed that it would be greatly for the
benefit of the, landed interest if a commission were esta-
blished resembling the Encumbered Estates Commission,
not compulsory, but enabling any gentleman to go before it
and prove his title. He believed that such a commission
would give the landed gentry the advantage of from three
to five years' purchase in the value of their estates.
Mr. 11 ALPOLE thought that if the house desired to
come to a sound conclusion relative to the codification or
consolidation of the law, they would not facilitate the ob-
ject by bringing in dozens of matters not connected with
that object. His right hon. friend (Mr. Whiteside) had
taken so much pains in this matter that he should not be
doing him justice unless he pressed upon the Government
the desirableness of adopting the measures he had proposed
for consolidating the criminal law of the two countries. The
first thing which the late Government had to consider was
whether the law of the two countries ought to be assimilated
or not. They agreed that it ought to be assimilated. They
had next to consider whether the law of capital punishment
ought to be amended and ameliorated, and thisquestion
also they answered in the affirmative. In the third place,
they had to decide the knotty question of the conspiracy to
murder, and herein it was agreed that the law of the two
countries ought to be placed on the same footing. They
had next to consider whether the criminal law of the
two countries might not be placed in competent hands
in order to its being consolidated in one set of statutes,
so that Parliament might adopt the consolidation so
recommended to it without referring it to departments
or a commission. It was thought that this could be done.
Measures of this kind ought to be carried throigh the house
upon the responsibility of the Government—(hear, hear)—
and he would ask the present Government and the Attor-
ney-General to consult the criminal law of England and
Ireland, and see whether the bills of his right hon. friend
wore not dekerving of adoption. If the Attorney-General
thought the bills good he would advise him to take up the
subject at once, and he could promise him the utmost snp
port on that side of the house. (Hear, hear.) They might
then have one consolidated setTliaswtaotuultdes
hfoora.thgoeowahhoele_
criminal law of the country.
thegin be-
ginning,
other statutes
d they
thanwould
if soonertho
talkedarrive o
of
at
referring a -
itniognotffo
tdheipaatritnmpoenrttans,
tcoannibim.etst.on(shaoandr,ohtehaerr.)modes of sutays-
-w. WII,LIAMS said that
_there were several ex-
Mr. 00 a-year who would
nLoo
doubt Lord
assist Chancellors i
tt i
an
to bring in the bills, which were after-
wards Leave was given
read a first time.
ME
ITERBANE CATION
AN TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNI-
. •

On the motion of Mr. CRAWFORD, an address was agreed
to for copies of further correspondence respecting the esta-
blishment of telegraphic communication in the. Mediterra-