The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-13 00:00:00

LONDON, Fit ID \' IiNING. MARCH 13, 1857.

not have bean increased by the alteration in the law. He
tlioneht it desirable that returns should be laid on the
table showing what bad peen done in the way of carry-
ing out the articles to which he bad referred, and that it
would he sufficient to limit teem to what had occurred
during the la,t five years. As their lordships would rot
have many more opportunities of addressing the house
before the dissolution of Parliament, he wished to take
the opprtunity of making a few remarks on our present
position with regard to China, and particularly with re-
gard to the expedition which the Government were
about to send to that country. As far as he could gather
from the public sources of information the expedition
was to consist of several heavy vessels of war, four re-
gimeets of infantry, and four batteries of artillery.
When the nob'e lord the Secretary fir Foreign Affairs
received the accounts of the destruction of the forts, of
the shelling of Canton, and of the destruction of public
and private junks, he was in possession of facts which
must have satisfied his mind that tbere existed a state of
war between this country and the authorities and people
of Canton. He was also aware that Sir J. Bowring had
ad vauc-d claims under the supplementailytreaty of 1843,
to which the strongezt resistance would be offered by
the Chinese authorities at Canton, and that Sir John
Bowring had not any means at his disposal to compel
the Chinese authorities to concede these points. This
was the commencement of a long and serious eontest,
and the intentions of the Government ought to have been
communicated to India by the mail of the 10,h Jan. in-
stead of the mail of the 10th March, in trder that due
preparations might be made for providing a native force
to support the troops about to be sent fr im this coun-
try. If such orders had been sent out to Indian the 10th
Jan , it would have been possible, with very great exer-
tioni', to have placed a proper force at Singapore by the
second week in April. If the orders were only sent nut
in March, he regretted to inform the Government that
they would be of little or no avail. At the time of the ar-
rival of these orders in India there would be no vessels
at Madras, and very few indeed at Calcutta, and there
would be no sufficient means of conveying large bodies of
troops, for not less than 20,000 tons of shipping would
be requisite for the purpose. But even supposing there
should be a sufficient supply of ships, they woul I meet
!he monsoon in the Bay of Bengal, and on arriving at
their destination would be in a shattered and disordered
condition. Now let their lordships consider the injury
which would be caused by this delay to British interests,
the danger to which the British population, British pro.
perty, and the British character of Hong Keng would be
.xposed in the midst of a dense Chinese population, and
the etc ,uragement which would be given to the °Meese

by the de lay which had taken place- in forwarding the
boasted power of England, on which we were apt to rely.
Then, again, our opera'Aons would commence at the most
unhealthy season of the year—that sea-on which had
peen so fatal to our army in the previous war. He did
not know whether the newspapers which were supposed
to speak with the authority of the Government were to
be robed upon, but it appeared from them that more
troops were to be placed on b )ard the vessels than they
were qualified to carry, considering the character and the
length of the voyage. He knew from experience the con-
sequences of any error in that respect, for when a regi-
ment landed after being detained long at eta in a crowded
vessel, it was not in an efficient condition for service.
The vessels destined for the Chinese seas would have to
pats the Cape in the middle of whet r, and would he ex-
posed to all the difficulties of the ocean. Now, with a
view to the preservation of the health of the tro q3e, he
eished to mae a few suggestions to the noble I,rd the
Secretary for War. The first was, that instead of supply-
ing the ships with single awnings, which would not
protect the men from either the sun or the rain, they
should be furnished with double awnings, extending
from stem to stern, which would not, only protect the
troupe, but give them the opportunity of call ee-
ing the rain which might fall. It was also necessary to
procure a better ventilation between decks, and every
means which science could suggest ought to be applied
to provide a corn plet3 ventilation. Again, in the state of
feeling which now existed in Caina it would be idle to
expect a supply of fresh meat from more than a few of
the islands, and without such supply the health of the
troops might be materia ly affected. He therefore
strongly recommended that every means should be taken
not merely for providing, but for testing the quality of
the preserved meats intended for the use of the troops.
At the present time no depeadence could be placed upon
India for a supply of sa't meat, and that article must bo
sent from this country. He looked with the greatest dis-
may at the probable result of the operations of European
troops in China without the assistance of an adequate
force of native troops, because in that climate certain
duties could be performed only by native troops. Then,
in what description of vessels were the troops to be sent!
It might be quite right to send troops to the Crimea in
a particular class of vessels, because they could be con-
veyed there in about a fortnight but if the troops were
to be sent to Hong Kong in such vessels, they could
not be removed in them to any other port. It was im-
possible that large vessels could be of the smallest use,
for not one of them could anchor sufficiently near to the
land, and nothing cool I be so contrary to reason as to
send troops in large ships if there were no smal ships to
which they could be transferred. If orders for the native
troops had been sent out in January, they would have
been conveyed in vessels of a small draught of water,
and towed by small steamers that might have been useful
in carrying on warlike operations; but if such orders had
not been sent out there would not be a sufficient supply
of vessels to carry the troops up the rivers of Coins. He
trusted the noble lord would read some of the despatches
written during the lest war, which would supply him
with a good deal of useful infermation. The despatches
from thence were written, if not from the dictation,
at least with the approbation of the Duke of Welling-
ton and Sir G. Cr ckburn. They would suggest the in-
stant sending out of a proper proportion of followers for
each regiment—not less than from 300 to 400 being abso-
lutely necessary. He would venture else) to throw out
another suggestion, and that was that every precaution
should be taken against allowing firs-ships to approach
the ships sent out with troops. In the year 1811 that
was a subject of the greatest anxiety, and every direc-
tion was given which experience could suggest to avert
such a danger; and when he read, as he had done recently,
of a fire-ship passing under the very bow of one of her
Majesty's ships, he must say that he thought the allow-
ance of such an occurrence was not at all creditable to
the authorities in command. One word with respect to
the manner in which the war had been c Irried on. A
noble lord opposite had defended the destruction of the
suburbs of Canton. Now in looking over the accounts of
the previous year, he had read with great satisfaction a
despatch from Lord Palmerston, who was at that time
Foreign Secretary, in which he distincay required those
who had the conduct of the war in no case to burn or
destroy a town, observing that it was a war against the
Government, and not against the people. Reports were
in circulation as to the prob ebility of taking the course
pursued in 1842, but we were not now at war with the
Emperor of China, but with the peeple of Canton and
Commissioner Yeb, and our operations ought to be con-
fined to Canton. He bad heard with regret that it was
the intention of Government to send out some important
personage as plenipotentiary, with some person on the
part of France, with a French naval force, for the pur-
pose of exacting from the Chinese some concessions which
we had no right to demand. He objected to such a course
of proceeding, not only because it would be unworthy of
this country to take advantage of the opportunity of
exacting from the Chinese Emperor that which we had
no right to do, but because he deprecated any conjoint
operations, and any conjoint proposals. Whatever the
Government might determine upon doing he trusted they
would act by themselves—that they would exact only
those terms to which England was entitled, and having
obtained those terms, woul I then retire from the contest.
The noble earl concluded by moving for the production
of the papers to which he had alluded.
Lord PANMUIIE said it was impossible to conceal
the fact that operations in China at this season of the
year were matters which must attract the serious atten-
tion of the Government. But the state of affairs in China
was such that not only the honour of this country, but
the safety of British property and the support of British
trade demanded that that state of affairs should be
brought to as speedy a conclusion as possible, and he had
no hesitation in saying that the policy of the Government
would be, to use every endeavour to bring matters to a
satisfactory conclusion in a peaceable manner, only ap-
pealing to force in the last resort. (Hear.) It was quite
true that it was the intention of the Government to send
out an officer of high character and position to negotiate
with the Emperor of China for a renewal of the treaties
already in existence, but he regretted to say never duly
observed. It would not be the object of the Government
to extort from China, even if we had a force there suffi-
cient to do so, any terms ;which were not just and rea-
sonable, and such as the justice of the people of this
country would approve. But if the Chinese should refuse
to grant those just and reasonable demands, it was not
only the opinion of the Government, but he believed it
was the opinion of the country at large, that the honour
and safety and character of the British nation in that
great empire demanded that we should not stop short of
obtaining them. The question had been considered by
the Government whether the necessary forces should be
sent from India or directly from this country. Under all
the circumstances it had been thought more advisable
they should be sent from this country; as, in the first
place, that which should always be considered, it would
be a matter of economy if our operations were conducted
from this country. Thereason was, there were 4 regiments
under orders for relieving and reinforcing the troops in In-
dia ; they had been completed to their Indian strength,
and were ready to sail for theirdestination; and by r•endiug
them to China, if the state of affairs there improved, they
could be moved on to India, and the expense of their
transport would, as it al, ays did, fall on the East India
Company, however, if they were detained in China, the
expense of transport would be borne by the mother-
country. With regard to another subject referred to by
the noble earl he bad the satisfaction of informing him
that the transports appointed to convey the troops bad
been so measured that they would not take more troops
than they could well accommodate in a voyage of such
length, and the vessels would not only take the troops
there, but they would be their barracks while they were
there, no that her Majesty's troops would not be under
the necessity of encamping on shore, or be exposed tothe
diseases which abound in that country. Lung before the
troops could arrive the heads of the commissariat, medi-
cal. and store departments would have made every pre-
aud orders
paration for furnishing them with suppliee,

had been given to obtain supplies of fresh meet, which
would be so necessary to the troop in that country and
during the hot season. Orders had also bent given for
the laying in of a quantity of salt meat, preserved meats,
vegetables, biscuits, and everything that was necessary
for the maintenance of the troops, With reference to
another portion of the noble earl's observations, he woolut
say that no movement hal been madeagainst the friendly
ports of China, and he hoped th et there would never be
occasion for us to be in a state of warfare with them.
The whole quarrel was with the Cantonese, and no par-
ties could have been more anxious to keep VP friendly
relations with us than the inhabitants of the four other
ports, who had . been al Nays twitted by the Cantonese
with their readiness to admit the barbarians to inter-
course with them. As regarded the mode of carrying
on hostilities, what he eaid on a former occasion on the
subject of firing the suburbs of Canton be would repeat.
He was certain that Admiral Seymour would not
have resorted to such a proceeding as the destruction
of the suburbs if he had not found it necessary for the
defence of the position he occupied and the safety of
his fleet. He still believed that Admiral Seyraour would
do nothing but what the necessities of the case required.
With reference to the conduct of operationg at Canton,
he was sure their lordships woul I see at once that to fix
on any decided plan of operations against that city, when
the opera`ions were entrusted to an officer in whom the
Government had the highest confidence, would be pre-
mature, and, as he (Lord Panmure) thought, a work of
supererogation. No doubt, when the commissioner who
was to be seat out arrived, and had made a survey of
the whole state of things, he would not fail to act, in the
first instance, in'euch a way as to lead to the securing of
peace by means of negotiations ; but failing in that, he
would endeavour to bring the Cantonese to reason by
such means as would cause the leait bloodshed, while at
the same time they were made to feel in every way the
full weight of our power. But to lay down any fixed
plan beforehand would, he thought, be essentially wrong.
All that he (Lord Panneure) could de was this—to make
the force sent out in every way effective, to use every
effect to keep the health of the troops up to the highest
standard, and to secure supplies net silly for the main-
tenance of the troops, but to see that in everything con-
nected with their restoration to health and the preven-
tion of diseases peculiar to the piece was provided for by
the precautions of the medical officers. With regard to
what the noble earl had said on the subject of awnings,
the dress of the troops, and their protection from the sun,
he could state that every requisite order had been given
on that subject. Mora than this could not be done, and
he trusted that in all the exigencies to which it would be
exposed, an Almighty Power would watch over the army
which had been sent out for a purpose which he (Lord
Panmure) would maintain was only a necessity.
The Esaaid, rl oafaEd LthLar
it is BOißatOended to conduct, those ope-
rations
G am afraid that it
is as I
without the native troops of India. If so, you
will lose half your force, and you will fail.
Lord PANMURE said that at present it was their
intention to carry on operations wittiout the assistance
of a native force. When a force was composed of troops
from the two armies in that climate some inconvenience
was I fund to arise from it. In fact the troops were like
the two buckets of a well; when the heats prevailed' the
British troops failed, and the moment the cold weathers
set in the native troops were useless ; and as it was his
opinion that it the p ;sition in the Canton river could be
maintained no operations should take place on shore till
the col t season set in ; io that case the native troops
'ocrtiot noticed, and that
to which the noble
earlwou idhafadiLadvielr
was with regard to the troops being sent cut in large
vessels like the Hiinal ,ye, which could not go .up the
There was
wwhaisahonhee allhtaj
river. The troops must be vent out in vessels of that
size because they were intended to be their barracks ;
but a number of smaller vessels were on the spot, and
15 or 16 small gunboats were about to be sent out, be-
sides which a number of the small vessels of the country
had been taken up, which would be towed by small
steamers and which could convey the troops to any point
of action at which they might be required. As to the
sending out of reinforcements being two months too late,
he had to say that as soon as it was found that troops
were reqeired at Hong Kong a regiment was sent from.
the Mauritus.
Earl GREY said that his noble friend stated that as
soon as the necessity for an additional force was known
it was sent to China. As far as be (B in Grey) knew
no order for the sending of a force from this country had
been given till after the accounts which were received
by the last mail a fortnight ago.
Lord PANMURE—A. regiment sailed a month ago.
Earl GREY—A regiment may have sailed a mouth
ago from some part of the East, but ho force from this
country was ordered until late in last month. Since
then a noble earl, a gallant admiral, had asked for the
despatches which had been received from China, but
none bad been produced. He (Lord Grey) wished to
know if such serious intelligence had been received by
the last mail, of which the public was not apprised, as
to have led the Government to send out a large force.
The Earl of CLARENDON said that there was no
objection to produce the despatches in question. It was
by those despatches that the Government first heard
that the admiral had thought it necessary to withdraw
from the position he had previously held in the Canton
river ; that was the first intimation they had, that he
thought that position could not be maintained with the
force at his command, and also that the threatening state
of things at Hong Kong required that a part of his force
should be sent there. That was the first intimation they
had that the admiral could not maintain the position
which early in January he hail been ordered to main-
tain. There was nothing in the despatches beyond what
he had stated a few nisslits ago, and there was no objec-
tion to their being laic! on the table. He would take
this opportunity of replying to some of the observations
of the noble lord on the subject of the returns which he
had asked for. He had made inquiry at the Colonial-
office, and he found that there were no returns for this
country with reference to the registers and papers which
were required on the fulfilment f the treaty. If the
treaty had been strictly carried out in the different
Chinese ports whatever was done in tbat respect would be
done by the harbour-masters there, and such proceedings
would not be the subject of returns to this country. As
the notices required to be given with regard to smug-
gling transactions, he had heard, on inquiry, that no
correspondence or record relating to the understanding
which was come to on that point between the Chinese
commissioner and the British plenipotentiary had ever
been sent home ; and there was no means of know-
ing how that article stipulating that means should be
taken to guard against and to give notice of smug-
gling transactions came to be inserted in the treaty.
Whatever was the reason it gave the Chinese authorities
power to prevent smuggling at any of the five peril, and
they might have prevented vessels found to be engaged in
smuggling from any further trading. There were two
or three despatches which recorded that notices ha I been
given to the Chinese authorities under the treaty ; but
he was informed that in 1851, instructions were sent oet
to Sir G. Bonham, with reference to the numerous n :-
tices which the British plenipotentiaries and consuls had
sent to the Chinese authorities, to which no regard had
been paid, and it was stated that there could be no doubt
tbat smuggling was carried on by the connivance of the
Chinese authorities. There was no such stipulation as
this in the treaties entered into between China and
France and the United States, and therefore in that re-
spect the British subjects were in a worse position than
those of France, or citizens of the United States. Those
notices were duly given, and it was clear that smuggling
was conni, el at by the Chinese authorities ; and accord-
ingly his Roble friend, who was then Seem ary of Foreign
Affairs, wrote a long despatch to our plenipotentiary re-
viewing all that had been done, referring to the non-
observance of the treaty and the neglect of the collection
of their own revenue by the Chinese, and he said that if
the Chinese did not choose to co-operate with us in the
collection of their own revenue and assist in carrying
out the treaty, we were not to be considered bound to
carry out our part of a stipulation with regard to which
we had never received their co-operation. But he directed
that a note should be written stating that, if the Chinese
authorities did no: co operate with us, we could not carry
out the stipulation of the treaty. That note was com-
municated to the high commissioner, who returned a
very vague answer, in which he said he was not aware
of any smuggling being in existence ; so matters had con-
tinued since 1851. He could lay that despatch and the
note in question on the table.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked if there was
any objection to produce the estimate of the expense in
England and India of the operations in China in 1857 ?
No answer was given ; but the motion was put from
the woolsack and agreed to, as we understood.
The Lighting of Towns (Ireland) Act Amendment
Bill was read a second time.
The Commons Inclosure Bill was read a third time
and passed.
The house then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTBRDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The fallowing private bills were read a third time
and passed —Exeter and Exmouth Railway ; Price's
Patent Candle Company ; and the Whitehaven, Cleator,
and Egremont Railway.
The Portland Harbour Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.
Mr. LA NGWO RTHY moved that, in the case of the
Salford Borough (No. 1) Bill, and the Salford Borough
(No. 2) Bill, the examiners of petitions for private bills
have leave to sit and proceed to•morrow.—Agreed to.
Mr. Frrz ROY moved the standing orders, providing
for the suspen-ion of private bills in the present session,
and for resuming proceedings thereupon in the next
session. The object of the motion was to put private
bills in the same position in the new Parliament as they
were in the present Parliament a 3 to their progress
through the house.—Agreed to.
TICKETS OF LEAVE.
Mr. SPOONER called the attention of the Home
Secretary to the case Of a man named Woolton, charged
with burglary at Ashover, and asked if he had received
any information from the Recorder of Birmingham that
the burglar was well known to the police of that town,
and that the learned Recorder bad suggested to the
Home Secretary the necessity of withdrawing the licence?
Sir 0. GREY said that in Fwbruary, 1856, his
attention was called by the Recorder of Birming•

liam to eighteen persons residing there with tickets
of leave. Eight of them had conducted them-
selves well, and two doubtful. Of the remaining
eight directions had been given to make inquiries re-
specting them. 'Three of them had since bean com-
mitted and their tickets withdrawn, two bad been con-
victed and sentenced to longer periods than their first
convictions ; two had been cautioned, and (Ale who had
kept a disreputable house had been cautioned, and he
abandoned it. The remaining three had been warned
by the police that if they continued their course of lite
their tickets would be withdrawn. He had heard no-
thing further of these men, and he supposed the desire
of the Recorder of Birmingham bad been complied with
and they had left the place, for the crime of which
Woolton was charged was committed at Ashover, in
Derbyshire, and not at Birmingham.