The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

TfIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1861.

cations to put his name on bills until they had' been sub-
mitted to him. (Hear.) It was a most disagreeable thing
to have a person's name placed on the back of a bill that
was unpopular. (Laughter.) He had been frequently
applied to in. the case of unpopular bills to put his name on
them, but there was no such application when the bill was
of a populai character. (Laughter.)
The SPEAKER said that he had made inquiries into
the matter, as he had promised the house the other even-
ing, and he had made himself informed of what had taken
place in respect to this matter. It appears that consider-
able negligence had been shown by the agents who had the
conducting of this bill, and he thought the order should be
discharged. With regard to the suggestion of the hon.
member (Col. W. Patten) he thought the better course to
pursue was to allow the Parliamentary agents to be ac-
countable for the orders of :the house being attended to in
regard to their private bills.
The order for the second reading was then discharged.

in since the commencement of the year at the rate of ' per
week on the aver Age. These are not the men origina'' •
templated by the act, but are all fine able seamen, set c
for character and ability. Vast numbers have been r, -
jaded who did not come up to the mark, or had not five
years service at sea. Had not the qualifications been re-
stricted to these, we might have enrolled double or treble
the number of men." Now, I say that is every satisfactory
state of things. I believe we may consider that the Royal
Naval Reserve is now an established and very valuable
force. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, it naturally became the
duty of the Government to consider whether having this
reserve, and looking I ambound to say to the fad that it
would cost a considerable sum of money to the country,
they would be justified in asking the house to keep up the
same vote as last year. This yeir we have already 4,000 of
the naval reserve added to a considerable force of naval
coast volunteers. It may be interesting to the house that I
should give a sketch of what our reserves are. First of all,
our Royal Naval Reserve amounts to 4,000, and I should
state that the greater part of these men are at home and al,
ways available. Hon. gentlemen may be disposed to say
'that these men are on distant service, but there is a very
small .portion of them on distant service, certainly under
one-fourth. And before I leave the subject of this reserve I
wish to state that her Majesty's Government are going to
bring in a bill immediately with a view to enrol the officers
in the mercantile marine or the Royal Naval Reserve.
(Hear, hear.) I believe that will be a very great advantage
to the navy, and that in the merchant service it will be ex-
tremely popular. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, the Royal Na-
val Reserve amounts at present to 4,000 ; the Royal Naval
Coast Volunteers amount to 7,000; then we have got of the
Coat tguard on shore about 4,000 ; we have got in disposable
supernumeraries an average of 1,500 men ; we have 8,000 I
Marines on shore ; or rather we shall have in a few weeks
when the Marine Brigade arrives from China, and 2,000
boys in the training ships. The house will be glad to hear
that here is a force of something like 25,000 reserves, avail-
able if necessary for an emergency to man a large fleet. I
think, therefore, it will not be pretended that we have made
any reduction in the personnel of our fleet which is unsafe
and unwise, looking to the protection of our coasts and com-
merce. To this I might add a large body of pensioners. The
Staff Officer of Pensioners stated to me a few days ago that
there is a very considerable number of pensioner marines—
about 3,000 or 4,ooo—who are perfectly fit for service if
wanted. Then, again, of seamen pensioners we have about
3,000 embarked on board ship. It has been thought wise
that we should, as it were, induct our yming ships' com-
panies into their duties. It is well known that, owing to
the growth of'the fleet of late years, we have had a great
want of petty officers and leading seamen—a circumstance
that has been one of the main causes of the disturbances
which have taken place in our ships. (Hear, hear.) lam
positive that when the crews of the magnificent fleet which
we now possess become acquainted, as they are rapidly
doing, with the cleanliness and the discipline of men-of-
war, we shall hear very little more of those disturbances of
which the world has said so much. • lam certain—and it is
my business to assure the house of the fact—that, notwith-
standing what we hear of the discontent among the officers,
and of the general dissatisfaction prevalent in the fleet, such _
a state of things really does not exist. (Hear, hear.) There
are a general feeling and desire on the .part of the fleet that
our navy should maintain its wonted superiority, and be
worthy of tke great country which it is ii ant to defend.
(Hear, hear.) Another important point with reference- to
the manning of our ships is the system of entering boys.
(Hear, hear.) Of late years it has become the duty of the
Government to provide training ships for boys, and, in
fact, greatly to extend the system of introducing lads into
the service. That was one of those wise recommendations
of the Commission which sat on the Manning of the Navy
that has never been lost sight of by the Admiralty from
that day to this. (Hear, hear.) We have gone on increas-
ing the facilities for training boys by devoting more ships
to that particular object, and we are now arriving at a most
satisfactory result as regards the boy system. We have
at this moment, according to the last return, as many
as 9,639 boys being educated at the public expense. I
have attempted to ascertain what proportion of seamen for
the fleet will be annually furnished from that number of
youths. Our statistics are, however, imperfect, not because
the Accountant-General's Department, from which they are
obtained, is not admirably managed, for I am bound to ray
that in all its branches it is very admirably managed, but
because of the constant fluctuations which have been taking
place in the numbers of the navy. Bat I find, first of all,
that these boys require an average training of three years.
Therefore, if we allow for the yearly loss thfough deaths,
discharges, and other casualties, we may reckon that the
total number left will supply to the navy about 2,900 per
annum. The next consideration is, what is the number of
seamen whose places have to be filled np ? After eliminat-
ing officers, marines, and other parts of the service, I find
that our present force afloat is about 38,000. seamen and
petty officers, the gaps occurring, among whom must be
supplied either from these trained boys or from the mer-
chant service. The proportion of casualties among these
38,000 seamen is now 14 per cent., or about 5,000 annually.
That is the present average, but I believe it will greatly
decrease as soon as the boy system has further developed
itself.
Sir J. ELPHINgTOrrza

Lord C. PAGET—It does. You will, before long, have
rL
up with yourprineipallyc fromompo boyhood, composed of seamen
and whomdenwhoh will b
have been
attached to the service by their earliest associations. I
have said that we have 2,900 boys to fill up the 5,000 vacan-
cies in the fleet, leaving 2,100 to be obtained from the mer-
chant service. Here there arises a very interesting question
as to what proportion of the navy is to be supplied by youths
who have been educated by the public, and what proportion
by the merchant service. Some will say that we ought not
to look to the merchant service at all, but should entirely
depend upon our own boys. I confess that, as a naval
officer, I cannot agree in that opinion. I think it would be
extremely unwise to widen the gap between ourselves and
the merchant service. (Hear, hear.) On the contrary, I
believe it is advisable that a certain proportion of young
men should be brought into the navy from that ser-
vice, and the remainder taken from our own train-
ing ships. The matter is one of mere speculation, but I
think it doubtful whether any considerable enlargement of
the present number of boys in course of training would be
attended with as much public advantage as some persons
suppose. (gear.) Having stated the number of men we
propose to ask, 1 now come to the next important element
of our service—the ships. It is quite impossible that we
can decide as to what should be our force, either in men or
in ships, without having reference to the forces maintained
by other Powers. (Hear, hear.) At present, and for some
time past, it is my duty to inform the committee that,
throughout the maritime nations of Europe there is a de-
termination—and a very proper one—to maintain an effi-
cient and powerful navy. We hear it from all quarters that
the principal countries of Europe are now paying great atten-
tion to the materia and the personnel of their navies. (Hear,
hear.) I will not at this moment read to the committee, un-
less they wish it, a detailed list of the maritime force of
other nations, as far as we possess it ourselves. (Hear.) If
I am to understand that the committee desires it I will read
it. (Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.") First of all, with
respect to the French navy, as far as we can gather from
the official reports—for we have no information that is not
open to the French public—we believe that France has 35
line-of-battle ships afloat and,,two building, making a total
of 37. We believe that the French have 18 paddle and 21
screw frigates, making a total of 39 frigates afloat and 8 fri-
gates building. All these are wooden ships. I will deal with
the iron .cased ships afterwards. The vessels I have spoken
of are all steamships. There is a great variety of small ves-
sels, corvettes, gunboats, and other classes, making the entire
French navy consist of 266 vessels afloat, and 61 building.
Then we have to consider another great naval Power,
Russia. Russia has 9 screw liners afloat, and none
building. She has also 7 screw and 10 paddle frigates,
making 17 frigates afloat and 6 building. Next, we
have for the first an account this year of the Spanish
navy, which is taking its place among the navies of
Europa. Spain has of steam liners afloat two, and building
one. She has twelve frigates afloat and two building. They
are all steamers, but whether they are paddles or screws I
cannot flay. We have another navy now entering the
arena. I speak, Sir, of the Italian navy. (Cheers.) I hope
and trust that that glorious people will speedily rank among
'the first maritime nations of the world. Italy has one screw
liner afloat—(a laugh)—she has six screw and twelve paddle
frigates, with a considerable number of smaller vessels.
This is irrespective of the vessels which lately belonged to
the Neapolitan Government. Here is a very powerful force
of sea vessels. I must now advert to a very novel weapon
of war, which to my mind is of still more importance in
considering the force of nations at sea, With regard to the
French navy, we know that they have no less than two very
large and powerful iron, cased ships. We know they have
also four powerful vessel" which they call iron cased fri-
gates, and that they have likewise four of a very formidable
class, called floating batteries. In addition to these they
have five gunboats with which we are partially acquainted
by rumour, and which are of a very formidable character.
We find, then, that the Spaniards are building an iron-
cased vessel, which is not yet afloat; and of the French
ships I may say that three are afloat; La Gloire and La
Normandi are actually on the water. Of the French float-
ing batteries I am not prepared to say how many are afloat;
but I have every reason to believe that every one of these
vessels could, if required, be afloat ie. a very short period
of time. We understand that the Russians are about to
build an iron-cased frigate, and the Italians have already
ono of those iron-cased frigates, which is either afloat or
about to be launched.
Mr. ROEBUCK—Where ?
Lord C. PAGET—I believe at one of the ports in the
Mediterranean. I now come to the question of the perform-
ance of this new class of vessel. (Hear, hear.) All we know
on that subject is from what has been done by La Gloire
As our own are not yet ready, we have no experience to
guide us, and I can only say that that is not the fault of
her Majesty's Government. I can assert for myself that I
have written many letters to the contractors, calling on them
to do everything in their power to expedite the completion
of our iron-cased ships ; and I must say that I think they
have not altogether done their duty to the public, or those
.vessels ought to have been launched a considerable time
since. (Hear.) With regard to our force in this class, we
have the Warrior and two sister ships. The Warrior is

latinrhed, and the Bleeli Prince is also lanneherl. The thirri

.1 s ip is about to be corr,ttnci,A in hor Majet 'N
dock-
d .'t Those are three ,J f the larger class. We
tve a •-k.c 41.1 called the Ite,,istance class. of which
r here are two; and both wig, we trust, lie launched wi,
he next month or two. We have two more vessels, which
have been ordered within the last few months, They are
altogether of a new class ; and I shall advert to them pre-
sently. From this it will be seen that we have seven iron-
cased ships under construction at the present moment. It
would perhaps be interesting to the committee if I gave
them some information as to what we know already of these
iron-cased ships. (Hear, hear.) The committee may re-
member that it was imagined by many persons that they
would be a failure—that, first of all, speed could not be got
from them, on account of their being so heavily loaded ; and,
secondly, that they would not be seaworthy. 'We have got
proofs that La Gloire has great speed, and also that she is
seaworthy. (Hear.) We know that she was appointed to
accompany the French Emperor to Algeria last autumn.
We know also that his Majesty was accompanied by one of
the finest and fastest squadrons in the French navy. My
hon. friend the member for Finsbury was at Algeria when
the Emperor arrived. La Gloire was in company with his
Majesty's yacht, which is a very fast one, and the rest of
the squadron were out of sight. (Hear, hear.) It is clear
from that fact that La Gloire is a vessel of great speed.
Then comes the question—ls she seaworthy ? When
returning from Algeria the squadron of the Emperor en-
countered a gale in the Gulf of Lyons. I know an intel-
ligent captain of a merchant steamer who was in company
with the squadron at the time, and he said that he never
saw a heavier sea or a heavier gale. I myself saw
La Gloire at Toulon a few days after her voyage, and she
looked nothing the worse for it. She lived through the
gale, and kept company with the Emperor's yacht. Here is
a proof that La Gloire i 3 a very fast boat, and, I will not
say a good sea boat, but a boat that could live in very bad
weather. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the interior ac-
comodation of La Gloire I know nothing. She is kept, like
some Eastern beauty, veiled from the public gaze. (Laugh-
ter.) Perhaps my hon. friend the member for Finsbury
effected an entrance. but if so, I believe he is the only one
who can give us any account of her interior appearance.
The whole of the French iron-cased ships are built of wood
and covered with armour throughout. They have nothing
but what we call schooner masts. They could not at all
trust to sails for anything like speed. They are, in fact,
entirely steam vessels—screw vessels, and have no pretence
to anything beyond that. I believe La Gloire was built on
the model of the Napoleon, and it stands to reason that her
stowage must be confined, both with regard to provisions
and coal. The French build their vessels of wood, and they
build them of a size something larger than a line-of-battle
ship. They consider them as vessels for narrow seas—
(hear)—and not for long voyages, and they think it right to
case them entirely with iron. (Hear.) We have adopted
an entirely different principle ; and who is right, and who
is wrong ? No credit is due to me for the 'Warrior, and, as
she was designed by a former Board of Admiralty, I may
state candidly what I consider to be her merits, and what I
regard as her defects. (Hear, hear.) The great distinc-
tion between us and the French is this,—they are build-
ing their iron-cased vessels of wood, and of a tonnage
not much larger than a line-of-battle ship; while we are
building our vessels of iron, and of a tonnage of over 6,000
tons; for that is the tonnage of the Warrior, the usual ton-
nage of a 90-gun line-of-battle ship being little more than
3;000 tons. Our ships are only partly cased with armour,
but they are rigged fully as line-of-battle ships, and have
immense stowage as compared with other ships in the navy,
and I believe this large class of ships, of which the Warrior
is one, will have very great speed. It is a very interesting
question to consider which, as a whole, is the better class of
construction. There is no doubt that the French construc-
tion is attended with very considerable advantages on the
score of economy, for we know that a ship of 3,000 tons
costs less than one of 6,000 tons; but wood is a very perish-
able article, and it is said that with iron plates a consider-
able degree of decay takes place. 'Why, then, should we
build vessels of 6,000 tons when another nation is building
vessels of only one-half that tonnage with nearly as many
guns—with, perhaps, not so heavy, but still a heavy arma-
ment? Here arises a consideration which, I think, must
have influenced the late Board of Admiralty, and which is,
I think, of great imp ortance. All those engineers who are
making improvements in projectiles tell us that we are only
in the infancy of gunmaking. (Hear.) I have heard that a
gun is to be produced which will pierce a 6-inch plate. If
that be so, what will be the effect upcn our ships cased with
41 inch plates ? This class of vessels will be rendered alto-
gether useless. One great advantage, however, of building
these very large vessels is that we can, if necessary, increase
the thickness of the plates—we may even double them.
(Hear.) I have taken the trouble to ascertain what would
be the effect of an increase of thickness upon the flotation
of one of these ships, and I find that with a 9 inch plate
the immersion would be increased only two feet. (Hear.)
If, therefore, it should be necessary to increase the thick-
ness of the plates to 6 inches or more we shall be in a posi-
tion to do so. (Hear, hear.) This is in itself a reason why
the Government, I think, acted wisely in resolving to build
vessels of this large tonnage. (Hear, hear.) It is of im-
portance, too, that these vessels should be able to take a

Warrior is provided with a great power of stowage, so that
she might be well supplied in these respects. Another thing
which we consider to be absolutely necessary, and which
other nations consider to be unnecessary, is that these
vessels should be fully riggel. The iron -cased ships of other
nations are merely rigged with schooner masts. We have
rigged our vessels independently altogether of their engines,
and that I take_ to be a wise course, because it is impossible
to say where• these ships maybe required to go. They may
be called suddenly from one station to another, and it is,
therefore, important that we should be able to dispense with
their engines. (Hear.) Another point to which I shall
advert is the extent of the iron casing. Other nations think

it right that their ships should be entirely cased with iron,
but ours are only partially cased. Tho reasons for this are
manifest. There can be no doubt that when you build ships
of great speed with very flue ends, and load these ends with
heavy armour plates, it is impossible those ships can go well
in a heavy sea. (Hear.) This is one of the defects of the
foreign iron-cased ships now building. They will do toler-
ably well in smooth water, but in a heavy sea they will be
total failures. But it may be said shot will penetrate these
exppsed places, and vessels will be liable to be sunk. This
I think is rather hypercritical, but I may state that the
greatest care is taken to provide against such a contingency.
The ends of the vessels aro built in compartments water-

tight, and asy serious damage from shot or otherwise will
be prevented. I have gone carefully into a calculation as
to what would be the effect upon the Warrior if a shot
struck her and went through the bow or the stern, and I
find that the effect would be perfectly trifling—indeed it
would amount almost to nothing—as the shot would only
affect a particular compartment, [to which are fitted pumps
connected with the engine. (Hear.) It must not be sup-
posed that because these ships are not cased with iron
throughout they are not sufficiently strong. All the plates
of the Warrior are 9-IGths of an inch in thickness, and if a
shot struck at an acute angle the effect would be that it
would be warded off altogether. Then the "Warrior is fitted
with cross bulkheads both fore and aft, in which in an en-
gagement the crew will be completely cased in armour,
though the ship is not entirely eased with iron. (Hear,
hear.) We are trying some little variety in the system,
such as putting iron plates round the main deck, that
being the fighting deck, and there are other variations,
to which I need not allude. Lot me say a word or two
about building these ships of iron and not of wood. Every
person at all conversant with such matters will agree with
me when I say that an iron ship is imperishable. lam not
prepared to say there are no defects in the class of ships to
which I am referring, but taking into consideration the pos-
sibility of our being obliged to case them with thick plates
of iron, we have acted wisely in constructing them of iron,
because I believe that these ships with proper care may be
made imperishable. There is one great defect of iron ships,
however, which to my mind answers the argument of the
hon. member for Sunderland, and those who, like him, de-
sire that we should cease to build wooden ships. I know
there is an opinion held by many eminent shipbuilders that
the navy should be composed of iron ships altogether ; but
I totally differ from that view. I think those large ships to
which I have referred should be built of iron. They are
ships that will not be ordered on distant voyages. But for
duty on distant stations, where there are no means of get-
ting docks, we must ever maintain our wooden ships.
(Hear, hear.) If an iron ship were kept for a couple of
months in an equatorial latitude her bottom would be-
come like a lawyer's wig. (A laugh.) She would not
steer, and would become totally useless. (Hear, hoar.)
I think, therefore, on the whole, that the late Board of
' Admiralty, and the present one, have acted wisely in
constructing very largo iron-cased ships. I be-
lieve we are likely to obtain important information with re-
gard to the exact form of construction that should be fol-
lowed in future, from the discussions that are going on in so
many societies with regard to these vessels. (Hear, hear.)
There is, for example, the Society of the Institute of Naval
Architects, from which we expect to derive much valuable

information. The Admiralty watch with great interest what
is taking place in that society, and I hope it will profit by
the excellent papers that are read there by the eminent men

belonging to it. (Hear.) I have thought it right before
going into the estimates to occupy the time of the house with
the matters to which I have just referred. I shall now direct
the attention of the House to Vote No. 1, which includes the
pay to seamen. With regard to this vote, I may state that
there are some changes which have taken place since last
year. I have endeavoured to put in a distinct form the
actual pay, with the allowances of every description, given
to officers and men. It is important to see what we give to
seamen over and above their pay and allowances. lion.
members are, no doubt, aware that the seamen of the Royal
Navy do not receive their pay as in the merchant service, but
if their pay and all the allowanceS they receive are reckoned,
it will be found that they obtain considerably higher pay than
in the merchant service. (Hear, hear.) First, we have an
established additional pay of £85,673 ; below that we find
good conduct pay to petty officers and seamen of £25,000;
further on we have a bounty to seamen of £lO,OOO ; so that
altogether the seamen of the fleet receive higher pay than
the mercli. int seamen, (Hear, hear.) It would be very
satisfactory indeed, if the pay of the seaman of the Royal
Navy could be simplified, so as to show what hs really gets

per annum, (Cheers.) What I wish particularly to call
I attention to in this vote is a sum of £9,304, which the eons-
-1 mitteo are asked to agree to in order to improve the posi-
tiae of officers in command. The committee are aware
-that her Majesty has been pleased to make an addition to
the pay and allowances of officers in command of ships,
It has en stated that this is a deceptive and not a real
increase. (Hear, hear.) But if these officers are not
to benefit by this regulation why are the public to pay
£9,000 under this head ? The committee will find that this
is a very great and considerable improvement in the com-
mand pay of officers. (Hear.) The captains of line-of-
battle ships will receive an addition of £lOO to their pay ;
the captain of a frigate £7O. Commanders and lieutenants
in command will receive, the former 2s. 6d. a day and the
latter 2s. If my hon. friend the member for Portsmouth
had looked to the details he would have seen that if the Ad-
miralty had not adjusted the captain's pay they would be
giving him more than a rear-admiral. The pay of the cap-
tain of a line-o:•battle ship is £7OO a year. It is proposed
to give him, in addition, £1 10s. a day, or £547 command
money, and but for the regulations made by the Admiralty
the total amount would be more than the pay of an admi-
ral. Of course, if you were to increase the captain's pay in
that ratio, you must also increase the admiral's pay, and so
on throughout the service. (Hear.) I think the house
ought to knoW what has been done in regard to increasing
the pay of the navy during the last two years. The House
of Commons during the last two years has agreed to an ad-
dition to the pay of the navy involving a permanent burden
of £50,000 a year. (Bear.) The increase of pay to the
various classes in the navy is a generous and fair increase,
and it is a little unreasonable that demands should, not-
withstanding, be continually made for increasing the pay
of all classes in the navy. (Cheers.) After vote No. 1 I
may pass briefly to No. 2, the charge for victualling, which
of course depends on the number of men. I will only call
attention to one charge, which will, it is hoped, be advan-
tageous to the seamen, although it may not be more econo-
mical to the service. We have often heard that the beef
supplied to seamen is bard, tasteless, and tough—in fact,
resembling mahogany. (A. laugh, and hear, hear.) Well,
we are trying a plan of curing our own beef at Davenport.
We shall kill the finest beef, and we shall cure it in the
best fashion, so that this will be a change of very great
value to the seamen. (Hear, hear.) On vote No. 3, for
the Admiralty, there appears some increase, but with
regard to the Admiralty itself there is this year'
a decrease. The increase in this item is caused by heavy
law charges in respect to efieetguard cottage:, all over the
coast. The house has taken great interest in providing cot-
tages for the families of these men. We have taken a con-
siderable sum for that purpose, and the acquisition of these
cottages entails a considerable law expenditure. The actual
establishment of the Adrniraltyshows a decrease in the pre-
sent year. There has been a reduction of clerks and a revi-
sion of the establishment. We have been getting rid of
temporary clerks and somewhat improving the position of
the establishment clerks. The next vote, No. 4, is for the
coastguard. The committee may be interested in knowing
the actual cost of our naval reserve. I have seen it stated
out of doors that this year the Admiralty have been cutting
down the important branch of the naval reserves, and tak-
ing a less sum than last year for this purpose. The contrary
is the case. Last year we had no experience in this matter,
and we took a nominal sum of £lOO,OOO. We have since as-
certained the real wants of the service, and the vote for the
pay of the royal naval reserve is accordingly reduced to,
£BO,OOO. What the royal naval reset ve costs will be seen in
page 26. We have taken out the various votes and put them
together. The reserve will consist of 7,000 men, and the
suns they will cost is £107,949. In vote No. 1 will be found
the pay of the training ships ; in No. 2 the victuals ; in
No. 10 the supply of naval stores to ships ; in No. 12 the
medical charges. These items together make £27,000, in
addition to the item of £BO,OOO in No. 4, so that we have
a royal naval reserve of 7,000 men at a cost of £107,000,
which is at a rate something like £l5 a man. The coast
volunteers cost us £28,000, and there are about 4000 men,
showing the cost of the Royal Naval Volunteers to be
about £7 a year. The expense of the coastguard may be
estimated in the whole at £750,000, and the total cost of
our reserves may be stated at £887,000, including all the
expenses of the coastguard ships. I pass over No. 5, in
which there is no change, except in regard to a small addi-
tior.al expenditure upon the new survey in Australia. The
Australian Government have proposed that they should pay
one moiety of the survey about to be instituted of a part
of their coast. In No. 6 there is no change from last year.
The vote No. 7 refers to Her Majesty's establishments
abroad, and on this there is an increase in consequence of
the war with China ; as, for instance, a larger staff has
been required for Hongkong. Vote No. 8, comprising the
wages to artificers, &c., employed in Her Majesty's
establishments at home, requires that I should say a few
words in explanation. The committee are aware that we
have had at work in ourilockyards for the last two years a
vast number of hired men above our establishments,
amounting at one time to nearly 20,000 men, and these
men were working, not by the day, but upon the system of
task and job, so that there was no limit to the work per-
formed. The result of these great exertions in the dock •
yards has been most satisfactory as regards progress in
shipbuilding, and already in the autumn of last year it
essraue essofftrA tuai a 1018 e nunmer or men mignt ne tits-
pensed with in the dockyards. It then became a question
how this should be effected, and the Government thought
that it would not be well to discharge all these artificers
and labourers who had been gathered together in the dock-
yards on a sudden, but that it would be best to retain them
till the spring, and then discharge them in such a way as
not to throw them upon parishes. The Government,
therefore, thought it their duty in the month of February
to give some notice to the dockyards that the number of
workmen would be greatly reduced, but that no man would
be discharged without a :month's notice, and without
being sent home free of expense. The Govern-
ment al- o determined to discharge the men in
small numbers, and not to throw a great number out of
employment at one and the same time. That was the
fairest course to pursue with regard to these valuable
men, whom it was impossible to have gone on employing,
as we could not find timber for them. We have expended
during the present year, or at least shall have expended by
the end of the month, no less than 80,000 loads of timber ;
and hon. members may readily believe that no possible
supply could keep pace with that result. The Government,
therefore, thought it their duty to discharge a large number
of workmen, but to do so at a period of the year least incon-
venient to them, and he believed that work at the present
lime, independent of that in her Majesty's dockyards, is very
plentiful. With respect to this vote there is the consider-
able decrease of £328,555 as compared with the vote of last
year. The next vote (No. 9) relates to artificers in her
Majesty's establishments abroad ; and, in consequence of
the hostilities with China, there is some increase in it. The
next vote (No. 10) is for naval stores for the building, re-
'pair, and outfit of the fleet, steam machinery, and ships
built by contract. It is one of the most important votes
in these estimates, and with respect to which the least in-
formation is always given. (Hear.) The Government are
gradually endeavouring to let daylight into the vote. We
have this year introduced into the Estimate some new de-
tails, and I am not prepared to say that the information
may not still be very much enlarged. I may be asked why
there should be the great addition this year of £285,000 and
odd for stoles, when we are reducing the dockyard establish-
ments ? My answer is that this is not an expenditure, but
an increase of capital. The money is wanted for the pur-
chase of stores, to place ourselves in a position hereafter; to
meet any emergencies that may arise. It is our duty to re-
place our stock of timber, which at the present moment is
in much too low a state. That is the reason for asking for
this large sum. If the committee agree to the-vote we shall
in the course of the present year replenish our stock of
timber not only to what is called the establishment, but, in
accordance with the wise recommendation of the right hon.
member for Oxfordshire, we shall have a considerable sur-
plus. Under these circumstances I trust the com-
' mittee will not hesitate to vote the money. It is not that
we are going to expend this timber, but what we want is to
lay in a stock of it. There is an item in this vote for an
iron-cased ship to be built in Chatham dockyard. I know
that there is an opinion that it is unwise in Government to
attempt to build iron-cased ships in her Majesty's dock-
' yards. I am not prepared to say whether hereafter it would
' be advisable to turn our dockyards into iron building esta-
blishments ; but the Admiralty have thought it advisable,
with the view of ascertaining the comparative cost of build-
ing iron-cased vessels in the dockyards and of building
them by contract, that one of these vessels should be built
in Chatham dockyard. I beg the house to bear in mind that
this is merely an experiment which the Government have
made with the view of ascertaining the comparative cost of
iron-cased ships as built in her Majesty's dockyards and in
private establishments. I may add that six of those vessels
are now in progress of being built, of which number two
have been launched, two more will soon be launched, and
the remaining two will be finished next year, an additional
sum of from £114,000 to £116,C00 over and above the sum
of £375,000 asked for in these estimates being all that will
be required for their completion. There are two items set
down for troopships, but I can assure the committee we seek
to build these vessels simply in lieu of ships that have been
lost. We aro asking you to assent to no augmentation of
our usual transport fleet. We are not desirous of imitating
our neighbours over the water in constructing a great many
ships of this class. We are anxious to maintain only
that
comparatively small number Which it is positively neces-
spofortthsehciopnsthinauveedurn:
e
neces-
sary we
ours h o
turlodo
phsa v e foro t,13.1fe P
fortunately been lost, and these it is expedient that we
our' rit)r°asne
should replace. The new ships will cost £70,000 each,
and for that sum we can provide vessels which will carry
a complete battalion of troops from one station to an-
other. There is also in the vote of which I am speaking
an item for the construction of store-ships—a , class
I of vessels of which I am aware the hon. member for
Sunderland very much disapproves, but with which I do
not think it would be either wise or economical altogether
to dispense. I at the same time go with the hon. member so
far as to regard the question as one of degree. I do not
think it would be well to get up a great fleet of Government
transports, as the French have done, but I am nevertheless
of opinion that it would be impolitic to trust entirely to
private ships. This, however, is a subject which will be
'fully discussed before the committee upstairs, and I shall
not therefore enter further into it at the present moment

There are in thi,' vote no other items to which I consider it
necessary to call the attention of the committees and I shall
at once proceed to give them a general idea of the way iu
which the money whioh they have voted for the navy I. r
Lie year has been eprnt. We have, I regret to say, been to
much in the habit of accepting the estimates without really
knowing what it is we get fur our money, so that the state-
ment I am about to make may be regarded as wearing some-
what the aspect of novelty. I have endeavoured to set
down on paper that which we have to show fur the larger
sums which Parliament has granted, and this is the result :
We have built during this year 9,075 tons of line-of-
battle ships, 12,189 of frigates, 4,133 of corvettes, 6,367 of
sloops, 1,409 of gun and dispatch vessels, and 102 gunboats,
—making a total of 33,280 tons. I str ted to the house last.
year that we intended to have built 29-Bths of line-of-
battle ships, but I believe that only 20-Bths have been con-
structed —a circumstance which furnishes a sufficient answer
to the hon. member for Sunderland, who contends that we
should cease building these vessels altogether. I may fur-
ther observe that, so far as large frigates are concerned,
we are in a very satisfactory position. I need not read to
the committee a return of the ships we have built, inas-
much as one lies on the table of the house. I shall con-
tent myself with simply repeating that with respect to
igates we are in an extremely satisfactory state, and that
it is not, in consequence, our intention to build during the
coming year any more of those vessels. Of corvettes we
do not propose to build a great many, our intention being
to devote our energies mainly to the construction of those
most useful ships—sloops and gun despatch vessels. The
improvements which are taking place in this class of
ships are such that I feel assured the committee will
concur with me in thinking that the Admiralty would act
wisely in directing the labour in our dockyards to the
completion of a great number of them. We accordingly
intend to build 65-Sths of sloops and 411-Bths of gun and
despatch vessels. So far as steamships are concerned we have
added 8,760 horse-power to the navy during the present
year, and I may state generally that the total horse power
is now, exclusive of this, 128,612, to which we propose to
add, for the year 1861-2, 9,370. Having said thus much I
have no further remark to make on this vote, and I shall,
therefore, proceed to the next, which is that for new works.
This vote shows a sm all increase as compared with the cor-
responding vote for the current year, and in dealing with it
the first important point which presents itself is the en-
largement of Chatham dockyard. Now, I have been very
anxious to lay on the table of the house the plan on which
it is proposod that this work should be constructed ; but it
is, lam sorry to say, not quite ready. Inasmuch, how-
ever, as there is no chance that this vote will come on for
discussion to-night, the delay is not of very great import..
ance, and I shall, with the permission of the committee,
defer going into the details of the plan until it is before us,
which I hope will be in a few days. I shall simply say now
that we propose going on this year with that portion of the
work only which is being done by convict labour—the em-
bankment of St. Mary's Island, in which considerable pro-
gress has been made. But the announcement which I
think the committee will receive with the greatest satisfac-
tion is, that it is the intention of the Government to come
nienee the establishment of a system of naval barracks.
(Hear, hear.) This is a question with respect to which we
feel very strongly. It is, I may add, my candid opinion
that if you establish at our principal ports good and cone-
' atodious and wholesome barracks for your seamen you will
so far improve their position, and do away with the discom-
forts to which they are now subjected, as to render the ser-
vice more popular than you would make it by almost any
other means. (Hear.) With this view we propose, should
we obtain the sanction of the committee for the project, to
purchase this year some land at the upper part of Keyhana
dockyard and contiguous to Devonport. There we pro-
pose to erect naval barracks. We also propose to build a
new salt-meat store. It is false economy to keep our salt
meat under temporary sheds. Both the meat and the
casks are damaged. I may state that this is an item which
has often been prof osed, but which has just as often been
cut out of the estimates. We have thought it our duty to
introduce it again this year, and I hope it will
receive the sanction of the committee. We propose also to
go on with the new docks at Portsmouth and at Devonport.
Another considerable item is for the enlargement of the
marine barracks both at Fort Cumberland and at Devon-
port. The committee is aware that there has been a great
increase in the corps of Marines. Increased accommoda-
tion is wanted. We propose to build barracks at Fort Cum-
berland. The site is a healthy one, affording great ranges
for guns, and the land has already been purchased, partly
by the War-office and partly by the Admiralty. We in-
tend to enlarge the barracks at Devenport: because en.
largement has become absolutely necessary, owing to the
manner in which the town has encroached upon the bar-
racks. In this vote there is also included a small sum for
the erection of a dining-room for the workpeople at Ports-
mouth. That will add much to the comfort of the men,
and it will also save time, by rendering it unnecessary for
the men to go home for their dinners. The only other new
item in the vote is a small sum for a lock-up house in each
of the dockyards. The object into have a place in each of
our dockyards where disorderly persons may be confined
and kept under careful guard. In the two succeeding
votes, 12 and 13, there are no great changes. The vote 14
is tor half-pay. When we are told of the great cost of the
non-effectives of the navy, it is at least satisfactory to know
that the vote is a gradually decreasing one. The old offi-
cers of the war aro gradually dying off, and consequently
a vote which now appears enormous may be expected to be
in a few years considerably less than at present. It only
remains for me to call attention to the increase in the vote

for civil pensions. The house has generously made, by means
of the receht Superannuation Act, a large increase in the
retired allowances granted to workmen and labourers of
every description. It must, therefore, expect a large increase
in the vote for civil pensions. There is an increase in the
Present estimates. For certain reasons, however, it is
scarcely perceptible; but I am anxious to impress the fact
upon you that in a few years the increase in the vote for
civil pensions must amount to a large sum. (Hear.) 'A.
single word upon the Army Department. That vote this
year, as I explained at the outset, will show a large decrease,
because we do not ask for any sum on account of the war in
China. It is but fair, however, that I should state to the
committee that the Government may have to ask for a vote
of credit for winding up our accounts in China. Last year
we teak a vote of credit for £1,777,000 on behalf of the navy
for the expenses of the Chinese war. I cannot tell the com-
mittee what the state f the balance is. V e have no meals
of knowing. It is impossible for the Admiralty to control
as they could wish an expenditure going on at the antipodes.
All we can do is to inspire our authorities out there with a
desire to economise in every possible way ; and I am bound
to say, with respect to the expenditure in China, that that
most excellent, gallant, and heroic officer, Admiral Hope,
has shown, as far as we are aware, the greatest desire to
carry economy as far as possible, consistently with the suc-
cess of the expedition. (Hear.) Notwithstanding the dif-
ficulties with which he has had to contend, notwithstand .
ing his severe wounds, he has been unremitting in his en-
deavours to check extravagance. (Hear.) 1 believe I have
now gone through all the votes. There are, no doubt, many
details which I have not laid before the committee, but I
am afraid of trespassing further upon your attention.
(Cheers.) I cannot conclude, however, without expressing
the great satisfaction I feel that the affairs of the navy are
daily assuming greater importance in the estimation of Par-
liament and the country. It must prove of the utmost ad-
vantage to the navy itself that those naval matters which
for years seemed to awaken no interest either in the house
or out of doors should now be made the subject of numerous
and animated debates. I may say for my colleagues and
myself that we are most earnest in our endeavours to main-
tain the efficiency of the navy, not only to maintain its
material strength, but to increase the comforts and improve
the position of its officers and seamen. To that object
we are directing all our energies, and I trust and believe
that in granting additional pay to certain classes of officers
we shall receive the unanimous approbation of the house.
(Cheers.) The noble lord concluded by moving a vote of
78,200 men of all classes for the fleet and Coastguard ser-
vice.

Sir J. PAKINGATON—The attention with which the
committee has listened to the long statement of
,the noble
lords affords a very gratifying proof of the deep and in-
creasing interest which is now taken in all matters affect-
ing the efficiency of the Royal Navy. In taking that inte-
rest I am confident this house only reflects what is the
strong and unanimous feeling of the public. (Hear.) The
noble lord has made a very able, clear, and, upon the whole,
a very satisfactory statement. My object in rising is rather
to ask for explanations, or to remark in terms of approba-
tion upon what has fallen from the noble lord, than to
make any comments of a hostile nature. (Hear.) I shall
at once proceed to touch upon some of the principal points
to which the noble lord has directed our attention. The
first in order is the reduction in the number of men to be
voted. The nominal reduction is, I think, 7,300 ; but the
noble lord proceeded to explain that in fact 4,000 men were
voted last year who bad never been obtained, and there-
fore that the practical reduction is about 3,000. Well, this
practical reduction the noble lord accounted for by the ter-
mination of the China war. So far as the termination of
s
the China war is the real cause of that reduction, it i i
possible for the committee to take any exception to it ;TA;
the contrary, we must feel thankful that the successful
issue of that war has enabled us to make the reduction.
The noble lord proceeded to state, if I rightly followed
him, that the amount of force the committee is now asked
to grant is amply sufficient tomaintain
tive the naval force now in commission bucotmlelerteelayreefftw effec-
tive
parts of this subject on which I feel it necessary to ask
o
sonic further explanations from my noble friend. He
staeted , as I understood him, that the amount of force for
the
present year has been sufficient to enable us to keep
1,500 supernumeraries in our ports.him
Do I understand
rightly to sty so ? Because this relates
to one of the recom-
mendations made by the Commission on Manning the Navy
in 1852, and it is ono of the points which ought not to be
lost sight of; on the contrary, I cannot refrain from ex-
pressing my opinion that the number of 1,500 supernume-
raries in our ports is not so great as it ought to have been. I
think we ought to have a supernumerary available force of
not less than 3,000 men. But, taking the lower figure of
1,500, I want to khow if I rightly understood my noble
friend to say that these 1,500 were in fact available seamen
—men who would occupy our barracks, if these were 111
existence, and who are therefore actuallY available to be