The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-12 00:00:00

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1853, that The balk nail lost b i, .. Cameron upwarclii"
15,0001. ?—That it had advance. - • /lir. Cameron—not lo '
k-
I say, lost by Cameron F—No, -4, . inly not.
Do I understand you to repro. . \that you had reason . -
believe, in the month of May, 185 Ain C0.111(TOTI l'ettl*
te the bank, that he could pay that m. siywhelialleiion I
—No, not when called upon ; but that heliad peAer arty to
cover the bank for his obligations ; and we believed, to a
recent period, that we had it in our hands, from interest that
he had in laud and stock in England. We did not know till
subsequently that that interest was mortgagedto otherparties.
Did you between lisfay,lBss, and Ist Jan., 1856, endeavour
without success to get security from Mr. Cameron I—Yes.
In the general accounts laid befoie the shareholders "at the
general meeting in the month of Feb., 1856, was the amount
owing from Mr. Cameron to the bank stated to be a good
asset of the bank ?—lt was a good &seat.
I take it for granted that you knew that fact I—Yes, and I
will go further, and say that up to June, 1856, our solicitor
was aware that the impression upon our minds was that the
loss through Mr. Cameron from the securities which we be-
lieved he had would be but trivial. We had the policies la our
hands, and the bank share, and we knew we had the interest
in stock and land, and we likewise believed that he had.
I must ask you what securities did the bask hold against
that sum of 19,001 ?—There is a list of them somewhere. I
cannot now tell them over my fingers. There were four orfive
securities of 1,000/., 2,0001. or 3,0001. each. We were told
there was a 3,0091. policy which was to be redeemed from the
National Bank of Scotland, and some other securities, but it
was afterwards discovered that there were credits upon them.
In the half-yearly account in June, 1856, was not the debt
owing from Mr.-Cameron to the bank also taken as a good.
asset ?—I have no doubt it was,

Have you any doubt that you knew at the time it was so
taken and so treated in the accounts of the bank 7—No, I
think not. I think there can bo no doubt about that.
Now I will call your attention to the accounts connectol
with the Welsh works. The bank has lost, I believe, by the
Welsh works, subject to what may be realised from them,
something like 120,0001.—1 am afraid so ; subject to what is
to be recovered you say.
In the accounts for the half year ending the 30th of June,
1856, were not those Welsh works taken as an asset of
120,000/. I—They were taken at what had already been ex-
pended upon them.
Then in the half-yearly account presented by the court of
directors, and sent to the shareholders by them for the half.
year terminating on that day, asi underst nd you, the Welch
works were taken as a good asset for the full amount which
they cost the bank, about 120,0r0/3 —I believe they were;
We were in strong hopes of raising a company under the Li.
mited Liability Act for taking these securities off the bank.

Let us see how that is. When did the bank first obtain
security over those mines in Wales ?—lt would be as far back,
I think, as 1850. Perhaps my solicitor will correct me if I
am wrong.
Had not the bank, in the early part of 1853, made great
efforts, through Mr. Pinniger, their solicitor, to dispose of
the mines T—Through Mr. Pinnigor ? No; I think not.
Just refer to the minutes, if you please, for the month of
March, 1853, do not you remember the fact,-that Mr. Pinni-
ger had been employed by the directors for the purpose of
getting up a public company to take these mines, and that he
failed to do so I—Yes, I recollect now what you mean. He
did not succeed.

I believe he was employed because the bank thought if they
employed their own s)licitor, it probably might become
known, and be detrimental to their interest. Was that con-
sidered so?—lt was so. I should think it was a wise conside-
ration.

Now having failed in that, they made arrangements, I be.
lieve, with a Mr. Clark to work these mines ?—Yes.
I think he remained in possession for some months, and
they were then thrown back again upon the hands of the bank
—Finding he had not enough of capital he threw them ups
upon a thorough conviction of their value.
Now, in the year 1854, I believe you instructed Messrs
Fuller to sell these mines ?—They had instructions, but whe-
ther in 1854 I do not know.
Now, refer to the minute of the 27th of June, 1854. You
find, on the 27th of June, 1854, at the meeting of the court of
directors, the court having considered the question as to the
amount of the reserved bidding to be put upon the Welsh
works at the Auction Mart to-morrow, and as to the amount
of the purchase money, which might be left as a security for
the property, and having conferred thereon, it was resolved
that the reserved bidding on the Park property should be
40,000/„ and the reserved bidding on the works 30,0001.,
and that half of the purchase-money might, if required, re-
main on security of the property. At that time the directors,
I assume, believed that 40,0001. and 30,0001., making top.
ther 70,0001., was all that they would be likely to get fir the
mines by sale ?—This is so.
There was no bidder, I believe, at teat sale I—No open
bidder.

I believe the security given to the bank was to a limit of
50,0001. I—l believe it was originally.
Can you tell me whether it is or not correct that at that
time the bank had advanced upwards of 75,001 n. upon the
property ?—No, certainly not ; I should think it is incorrect.
Now, tell me, did not Mr. Apsley Pel:att and Mr. Pearce
retire from the direction of the bank in consequence of what
they considered the irregularity of the transaction with re-
ference to the funds ?—Not to my knowledge. The grounds
of their retirement were quite different.

Perhaps you will favour us with those grounds ?—Mr. A.
Pellatt had acted as a member of the London Life Assurance
Office, to which he gave a good deal of time. Mr. Pearce was
actively- engaged at Lloyd's, and they found their engage.
meets were incompatible with the duties which the bank de-
manded.

I need scarcely ask you again 'whether in the month of
May, 1855, you had not yourself Come to the conclusion that
there would be a very large loss about the Welsh mines I—.
We were sanguine that we should be successful in forming a
company to take them off the hands of the bank upon the

principle of deferred payment by issuing to any public body
who would be disposed to take the securities.
Tell me what means you had taken for the purpose of get-
ting up any such limited liability company I—We had been in
communication with a professional mau, who said he thought
he could manage it forus.

Give me his name, if you please—Mr. Walker. He said he
thought he had connexions of sufficient power to enable him
to construct it.
What Mr. Walker was that I—A lawyer.
Where does he live ?—I do not know.
Is he in London f —He was quite a young professional man.
Does he reside in London ?—I believe so.
Where is he to be found ?-11e was originally connected
with our solicitor.
Where is he to be found I—At the present moment I do not
know. You will find a minute upon the subject.
Mr. Linklater—Mr. Paddison can help us. Is he to be got
at, Mr. Paddison ?
Mr. Paddison—Oh, yes. Ho thought he had access to a
number of wealthy persons of position. Ido not feel at
liberty to name those whom he thought might be disposed to
take up the whole thing throsqh the strength of their own
connexions.

I am afraid we must trouble you for their names, as we
may hereafter have to test, not the accuracy of what yo 1
are now saying, but your memory—l do not think it woald
be right for me to give the names to be brought before a pub.
lie meeting, nor do I see the importance of it.
Mr. Linklat?.r (to the Commissioner) —I am Quite in the
judgment of the court upon the subject.
The Commissioner—lt is not very material.
The Witness—With due deference, I think not.
Mr. Linklater—lt had been put up to auction in 1854 1--
When I stated that we were in hopes of—
The Commissioner—l suppose there were some subsequent
endeavours also taken ?—I did not absolutely dive into that.
We thought that though that particular instrunyentality might
fail, others would turn up advantageously which would en.
able us to carry out our view, because a time might 00MIP
more favkrable for the construction of a company upPn that
principle. I did not place much faith upon his particular in.
strumentality. He said, I know se-and-so and so-and-so, and
I can get access to parties who, I think, will be likely men
to take the thing up.
Mr. Linklater—When was that I—Some time, I suppose,
before 1856.
Mr. Paddison—As you have applied to me up )n the sub-
ject, and as Mr. Esdaile has himself stated that Mr. Walker
was, he believed, connected with the bank solicitors, just per-
mit me to state all that I know upon the subject. Mr. Walker
was a clerk of mine in the year 1854, for nine months ; he
left me at the end of those nine months, and from that time
afterwards to July or August, 1856, I never saw or heard of
Mr. Walker ; but in either July or August, 1856, or some
day which can be got at through a minute you will find in
the minute book of the proceedings of the d rectors, it was
stated to me incidentally that Mr. Walker had been employed
by the diree ors, for the purpose of getting up a company to
purchase those Welsh works ; but as to the negotiations with
Mr. Walker, as to the peculiar instrumentality through which
he was employed, as to any interview with him upon the sub.
ject, I know nothing.
The Witness —He wan introduced to me by Mr. Crawford,
our new manager.
Mr. Paddison—He heard of the employment of Mr.
Walker from information which had been given to him.
Mr. Linklater—l must ask you when was it that you had
communication with Mr. Walker upbn the subject of this
company I—June or July.
Perhaps at the same moment at which Cho bank closed !
No ; I should think not.
Had not a.Mr. Thompson been employed by the directors 1
—Yes : he was a civil engineer.
Had he not given the Welsh works up as a hopeless task ?
believe
—No, he gave it up because it did not afford—l believe those
were his words—sufficient scope for his enterprise. Ibe
be wanted to go into the iron trade and the coal trade.
When did he give it up ?—I do not know; 1854 I suppose.
His letter exists, which will give you those particulars.
Just see, Mr. Esdaile, whetherithis minute of the 29th of
August, 1856, will refresh your memory as to the time when
you had communication with Mr. Walker. I find by the
minute of that day, the 29th August, that the solicitor stated
he only heard yesterday that Mr. Francis Walker had been
instructed by the court to form a company for taking the
Welsh works, and observed that this had been done without
ree-
i nlwBsb6i: which M
hadr. Zein n nig er
employed i n lBfs o3r,
sense a M
purposes.
r p Yenning n g
Th
his privity, and without asking his advice upon the subject,
contrary to the conduct of the court upon the two former in.
cstanentry in
general manager stated that the disposal of the works had
asserted ebda
dthbaeteint
been for three years in Paddison's hands, and it time to
rtaolemiabnuagt manager's snteawtemdieinetcloarnadthafalt
try some one else. The solicitor denied the truth of the gene.
bank up to that time to avoidtheir own
putting forward
solicitor in any attempt to form a company, in order that the
bank connexion with the works might not be known. Now.
the policy pwoleilicyk:forhe
that minute is signed by yourself as governor ?—Yes.
And it correctly reports what took place 9—Yes•your cm.
Now, does that enable you to say whether or
hneotend of the
munication with Mr. Walker took place at trete _
p My at the
month of August last year I—l should
think -otiations pend.
end of July.
There
were one or two other nog
ing at that time. that you represented that
Do I understand you now to say n,
he in the accounts ending
which you believe to be trueeclwsh works to be a good asset
June 1856, you stated th
Well, we did feel, and we were
to the amount of 120,0t0b0e1.
eventualities would be such as to
prepared to say, the at
ank
b upou that—
produce a loss W th
Ido not want to interfere with the exercise of all the elo.
but I want an answer—yes or no.
quence of your vocabulary, d
you to represent that you believe you were
Do I understau iu the accounts ending the 30th of
stating the truth When'
June, 1856, you represented to the shareholders that the
mines constituted an available asset of the value of
Welsh
120,plain001 ? It is a plain question, and let me have an answer
,es or no I—lt is not a question that I can give a plain
answer to. We may have had, and must have had of course,
certain anxious feelings with regard to what the future would
bring about as to that t,roperty, but we were not prepared to
say that there would be a loss before that loss was proved. I
therefore cannot give you a yes or no answer. I can only give
you such an answer as is present to my own mind.
I must ask you, Mr. Esdaile, upon the obligation of the
oath you have taken, whether, on the 30th of June, 1856,
you believed the Welsh mines to be of the value of 120,0001.
Do not hesitate so long.—l am obliged to hesitate, because at
that time we were in confident hope that we might make
arrangements by which the property would be redeemed, that
that those advances would be redeemed.
Had not Mr. Donally been in communication with the
bank in reference to the sale of these mines 7—Years before.
What do you call years before-18551—N0, 1852.
Faddiaon-1852 or 18337—The mints had not bee 4