The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-10 00:00:00

PUBLIC BUSINESS.

Lord PALMEit67:ol4noved, pursuant to notice,
that on Thursday orders of the day take precedence of
notices of motion.

Agreed to.
COMMISSION OF SUPPLY (SCOTLAND) ACT
(1856) AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought
up the report, which was agreed to.
INCOME TAX BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. DISRAELI said—lt appears to me from what I
lead that we really are at war, and I don't suppose
that an, body anticipates., that we are not at war with
China. I therefore think it better at once to pla.,e our
position before the house, so that we shall not indulge
in any of those dreams of economy and of administrative
improvements iu which we have iniulged. Those dreams,

I am afraid, are past. I therefore do not feel myself ju -
tified in offering any opposition to the measure now be-
fore
the house, as I consider it absolutely necessary that '
her Majesty's Ministers, whoever they may happen to
be, must have a sufficient surplus to carry on thestruggle
in which we are now, I think, unhappily embarked.
There is another reason for not pressing upon the house
that modification of the income tax which I otherwise
would have thought it my duty to bring forward. The
house the other night agreed to an increase of indirect
taxation, and in the face of that decision I should be very
averse to increase direct taxation. But that I think is of
very little impoitance in the face of the very critical
state of our foreign affairs, and the policy to be pur-
sued with regard to the China war, which may be of bcins
length, and must be of considerable expense. I with Om'?

those who are al ways pressing for a reduction of taxa-
tion would consider how far that must depend upon the
management of our external relations. Now, we have
gone to war with Persia without the knowledge of Par-
liament, and we have recently had the satisfaction of
being informed that peace with Persia was concluded.
So far as we can ascertain, these are the facts : let, that
the war with Persia was occasioned by a cause too con-
temptible and shameful to be mentioned. Either that was
the real cause of the war, or it was not. It it was the real
cause, it appears to he part of a system to distract the
attention of the country from domestic legislation to mat-
ters occurring in every part of the worll. But adopting
that e,s the real and genuine cause of war, wl at has oc-
curred! In consequence of our going to war with Persia,
negotiations, as I am informed, took place between the
British Government and the Persian auhorities at Con-
stantinople, and certain terms were offered for our accept-
ance, which were refused. After this refusal a vast expen-
diture was incurred. Fresh negotiations for peace then
occurred between Great Britain and Persia, and these
negotiations. were successful—in what manner, and by
what means! As I am informed, virtually by our accept-
ing at Paris what we refused at Constantinople. Now,
what I want to know is, haw much it has cost the coun-
try by the rejection of those terms at Constantinople.
Why, if we take this quarrel with Persia, I can hardly
suppoi a it would cost the country less than half a million
of mouey. Why, sir, if we have half a dozea of thee() diffi•
cultiee every year, sad average them at half a million each,
I want to know how the 7,1. in the income tax is to be
reduced ; because four difficulties at 500,000/. each, veto] d
amount to a twopenny income tax, and not only will the
sevenpenny tax remain, but there will be every prospect
of the " popular" ninepence being retained. Now, after
the Persian difficulty, we have the Chinese difficulty,
which no one can suppose will be satisfied with one penny
in the income tax, and from which if we get off for a mil-
lion we must suppose we must get well off. But as we
are going to the hustings, and will be asked by our con-
stituents to reduce taxation—when we find persons-com-
pelling taxes upon tea and sugar, let us ask them, before
they complain of those burdens, whether they do sane-
r tion and approve that turbulent and aggressive system
of diplomacy which is so costly to this country, and which
really is the cause of our not being able to reduce our in-
come tax to that measure of moderate amount which the
country has a right to expect. For my part, I believe we
have a duty to perform—to support the Government of
this country, of whatever elements it may be formed,
who placed the country in the difficulties in which it now
finds itself. This time we are at war with China, and how-
ever we may deplore that war, we must pursue it till we
can bring those lamentable proceedings to a close more
consistent with the interests of the country and humanity.
But, under present circumstances, I no longer feel justi-
fied in opposing the bill of the right hon. gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any motion which can
tend to reduce the resources at the disposal of her Ma-
jesty's Government. I lament the necessity lam com-
pelled to pursue. lam in the hope the feeling of the
country will force the Government to pursue a more con.
ciliatory policy to foreign countries—a policy which,
while it maintains the honour, and dignity, and true in-
terests of this country, shall not be calculated to. outrage
the feelings of every foreign State, for until tloat is done
I am convinced that the burden of our taxation and ex-
penditure will probably be increased.
After some remarks from Mr. B. COVinIANB,
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the tax being con-
tinued on incomes under 150/.
Major REED impressed on the Government that
there must be a readjustment of this tax.
Mr. MITNTZ said that the country would not be
satisfied with the present modification of the tax.
Sir G. STRICKLAND complained of the inquisi-
torial nature of the tax, which was one that ought not
to be continued in the time of peace.
Dr. MICHELL also complained of the inequality of
the tax.

Lord PALMERSTON said—Sir, I cannot avoid
saying a few words in reply to the observations made by
the sight hon. gentleman the member for Bucks (Mr.
Disraeli) with respect to the vote which the right bon,
gentleman is going to give. I thaek him for the vote
which he is going to give ; but I cannot offer my thanks
for the reasons which he says make him ready
to vote for the continuance of the inc:lme tax.
(Hear, hear.) What the right hon. gentleman
said reminded me of what was once said of a Chief Jus-
tice of Canada who was not very lear.n.sa in the law.
When he asked a friend what he shr.,ala do in a particu-
lar case, the answer wait, " Give your decision, because
you are a man of good sense, "and your decision will, no
doubt., be right ; but take '.fare you do not give your rea-
sons, because they will, in all probability, be wrong."
(Laughter.) I should 'oe glad if the right hon. gentleman
will tell es what he. 'means when he says that he will vote
for the income ;ex, because it has been rendered nece.,-
sary by the turbulent and aggressive policy of the Go-
' vernment. Does be mean that war in which, with many
allies, we were engaged against Russia ? Was thus, part
of that turbulent and aggressive policy, or does he mean
the peace whieh followed the termination of that war as
being an aggressive policy I Does he mean our present
state of relations—upon their present footing, with France,
Austria, Sardinia, and the United States—are to he taken
as a proof of this turbulent nod aggressive policy ? Or
does he mean the treaty lately entered into with the
United. States, and which I trust will settle all points of
difference between the twe countries? Is that to be termed
an aggressive and turbulent policy? But the right hon.
gentleman refers to the war with Persia, which he says
is a shameful case. That war, however, arose from the
turbulent and aggressive policy of the Government of
Persia, who invaded and seized upon Herat, in defiance
of distinct and solemn engagements entered into with
this country ; and every man who knows the value of
our Indian Empire, and who knows our position in the
East, will say we were right in endeavouring to prevent
a violation of that treaty. Well, then, does the charge
of turbulent and aggressive policy against the Govern-
ment rest entirely upon our position in China 1 Is that
an aggressive policy which has been exemplified by the
burnings, the poisonings, the assassinations, and all
those other cri nee which have been committed by the
Chinese against British subjects ? I suppose that is
what the right hon. gentleman means by the turbulent
and aggressive policy of the Government. In
fact, the hon. gentleman sees that we are
all going to our elections, and no doubt his object in
making these statements is is order that they may tell
upon the hustings; but I warn the right hon. gentleman
that this cry of turbulent and aggressive policy will not
be a successful cry for him and his friends. The people
of this country are far too clear-sighted to be led away
by such a cry as that. (Hear.) I have no doubt that the
people
of this country will give answers when the ques-
tions are put to them which will not be in favour of or
agreeable to the right hon. gentleman and those who act
with him. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. GLADSTONE was not aware that a discussion
upon the Income Tax Bill would take such a wide range,
and that questions of such great importance would be
brought forward. The noble lord at the head of the Go-
vernment had addressed something like a general chal-
lenge to the house, but he did not think the house would
wish to enter upon a discussion of the foreign policy of the
Government, and he did not wish to enter into or renew
those warm and keen debates which had lately taken
place; but as the challenge had been thrown out, he
could not refrain from stating that it was his decided
conviction that a very material connection existed be
tween the foreign policy of the Government and the ex-
cessive taxation of the country. The noble lord had put
the question upon the different branches of this foreign
policy, and he had ventured to anticipate that judgment
which the country would have to give. The noble lord
said that the light hon. gentleman the member for Bucks
had made his speech with reference to the busting-. ; but
he (Mr. Gladstone) did not think it would be a cruel and
unwarrantable reply to say that' the noble lord's was
i
made with a similar view. (Hear.) This must be an m
perfect discussion upon these questions ; but he must I
say with regard to one of them—that relating to Persia
—he was sorry, for the sake of all parties—for the sake
of fairness towards the Government and for the interests
of the country—that the Government had not shown a
greater disposition than hal been shown for a thorough
sifting of this question in that house. It was said that
the war arose in consequence of the turbulent and ag.
gressive policy of the Persian Government ; but there
could he no doubt that a difference of opinion prevailed
with a great portion, if rent with the majority, in that
house ; and his belief was that a different seutiment was
entertained by the people. He regretted that they had not
discussed this matter in the Hou,,e of Commons, because
the course which had been pursued of withholding the
estimates had involved a derogation of the rights and
privilegoe of the house. Tliehoenxprmosesmetbiergifeoart :oLoannxarlt
13. t-
shire (Mr. Cochrane) had
for the Government to renew relations with the
note Gover-
nment of Naples ; but he (Mr. Gladstone)
would
dwei rt tha ke ,
regardin tee o statethe ofx ignoranceeapolitau in
patvnlei which h they t
o givea
remainedunny
recommendation upon that subject, The whole of these
proceedings rested upon the re ponsihility of the Govern-
ment. He regretted the iniscarriaee of the measures
adopted, which had, be thought, been founded upon an
inadequate consideration of the many difficulties the
Government had had to deal with. He had the deepest
conviction that these measures had led to no mitigation
of the evils endured by the sufferers in the
Naples. If for a moment he put out of sightn theg d causeo
l
of humanity, liberty, and order, and
inno-
cent undue and miserable afflictions endured by he
cent persons in the dungeons and prisons
of Naples,upon an ill-
i
oked merely at
thought these measures were undertaken

NV skAPE It
.
~ --,,,_ nssee;esetee
4. s '7-2.:...
-!'rte
In'zi.4... --1-. -$:,.a.4...:.''..5. si;
defined basis, His opinion agree 44, Ott -,-,*:).i.- , ,--,
4
by the noble lord the member f .r Weegss,... s, ere
vernment had eit:ier done t 0 inue. o ste: litsfa'sej,
little to make success certain, and ftse,24raitt-sif st'sciess
took into c ,nsideration all the reasons foritieis ieterves,
tion. With regard to Caine he thought it better to
avoid a discussion of this question at present ; but in re-
ference to the treaty with America, he cou:d only say
he did not admire the conclusion drawn by the noble
lord at the head of the Government. He read the treaty
iu the newspapers with great satisfaction, and regretted
that an assertion had been withheld from it, in conse•
quence of the proceedings of the Government in neer-
' Island of Ruatan to Honduras, CuPrtr'illee did
ence to Central America. ne a
i of • •
nweityaipngprothvee
of the controversy which had raised the question. Th
noble lord had referred to this treaty as a
had
tof
remindedspct
mem of the p. boy of the Government, and
the house of ..... . , ointe, upon which he challenged the
approbation of the house. All hon. gentlemen
would
have the opportunity in meeting their coreissttiintouesn,teanodf de-
finingh their opinions upon all these questinons,
would hope they would do so manfally and with satisfac-
tion to themselves. The right hon. gentleman opposite
(Mr. Disraeli) said he did not intend to make any mo-
tion for the purpose of obstructing this bill, and he (Mr.
Gladstone) wished to :state very briefly his objection to
the measure. He considered that this matter had born
best described by the hon. and learned member fur Waling_
lord (Ur. Melins) at the c.immencement of the sassier),
when he said that he protested against their standing
upon the legal a lvantage which they had acquired of levy.
ing the HI income tan- He asked the Government to
surrender the war tax, and to come to the house with the
necessary estimates for the pubic service, which he felt
sure the house would agree to. He (Mr. Gladstone)
placed the question upon that short speech as being the
only sure aid solid ground upon which to proceed ; but
neither the Government nor the house bad taken the
advice of the hos. and learned member. Taey had not
founded their estimates upon the wants of the country,
for the house did not a now what they were. They wer
voting the ways and means before going into any cons
deration of the public expeoses. Against the whole of
these proceeniess he would enter his protest. His own
ideas of financial proceedings were opposed to the present
course, but he felt no disposition to declaim against the
views and feelings of the house. (Hear.) The hon. and
learned gentleman the member for Newcastle said that
the only was to keep the tax under control would
be to vote it from year to year ; but he did pot agree
with the hon, and learned gentleman, as he thought it
would be far better not to encourage transitions iu taxa-
tion by voting taxes for very short periods. When the
tax was voted in 1842 for ttcee years, and again, in
1846, for three years more, it was sanctioned by Perlis..
ment in order that it night become an instrument of
Li-eat utility in effecting beneficial ce.anges in the com-
mercial system of the country ; but it Parliament were
now to reverse the mode of voting the tax, 1 y sanction-
ing it for one year oily, it would be disassociate g the
tax from those great social and commercial improve-
ments, and would be convertiug it into one of the ordi-
nary means of raising the revenue of the country. He
was consequently opposcd to the proposition fir voting
the tax from year to year. The bill now under discus•
sion he considered as proposed entirely and exclusively
upon the responsibility of the Governmeet. The right
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had given notice
early in the session of his intention to move the rin
ductien of the war ninepence, but that circumstance
did not diminish the responsibility of the Government.
He did not find fault with the Government for not re-
pealing more than the war 9d., but his complaint was
that the Government had taken off the war 9d. before
the house had been put in a position to ascertain in com-
mittee of supply what was to be the standard of the na-
tional expenditure. The hon. gentleman the member
for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) had referred to tee recon-
struction of the income tax. The hon. gentleman and
others had spoken at the hustings and elsewhere upon
the practicability of devising some scheme by which the
tax might be reconstructed ; bre in his (Mr. Gladstone's)
opinion, those speeches, aitheu,ge delivered in all sin-
cerity, had operated as a delusion upon the country ;
for the tax had been voted again and again, and no
Government bad proposed its reconstruction, and no
member had felt himself justified in proposing any
scheme for the purpose likely to meet with any encou-
ragement in the house. In fact, the house itself had de-
clined to entertain the question. Instead of following
this will-o'-the-wisp of reconstruction, he wished the
people of this country would seriously consider whether
they wished to have a uniform and perpetual income tax,
for it seemed to him that things were rapidly drifting in
that direciion. He was, however, convinced that it was
still pract;.cable to bring the income tax to a close, but if
it were to be reconstructed, it would be necessary to go
into the consideration of the public expenditure in a
stricter temper than heretofore. The moment fur leaking
this change practicable was rapi- ly passing away, for he
feared that in two or three years it would be mere waste
of time to debate the subject, as the relations between
the demands of theservice and the provisions for meeting
them would have no room for reconstruction or aejust-
inent, even if possible.

Mr. MALINS was glad there was no opposition to
this bill. Trough he derived all hie own income
from precarious sources, lee was couvinced it was
impossible to reconstruct the tex so as to make a
'distinction bet eeen permanent end precarious incomes.
They might as well insist upon making a distinc-
tion between permanent end precarious incomes
with regard to the asse se.t taxes, or the house tax, or
even the tea duties. But this only made him the more
anxious to remove it altogether. Wits respect to our
foreign politics be hoped that in future wo wouid either
not interfere at ail, or would interfere with effect.
Mr. V. SMITH said it was a very convenient practice
to bring forward unex2ectedly the imdortant questions
which hal been discussed by host. members up ,n the
recoud renting of the Income Tax Bill, and particu'arly
so on the present occasion, when some hon. members
hoped to be sent back to the house, and ethers, in the
anticipation that they never would, were making their
best efforts before the dissolution took place. But he rose
to answer the statement which had been made by the right
hon. gentleman opposite with regard to Persia. The ligh t
hon. gentleman did not fairly represent the fact when he
said that the noble lord at the head of the Government
threw out a challenge to the house to discuss his Per-
sian policy. The challenge was really throrn out
by the right hon. gentleman himself (Nlr. Disraeli) when
he characterised that policy as a turbulent and aggres-
sive policy. Would it have been fitting for the Prime
Minister to have sat still, and not repudiate the charge
implied by those epithets The right hon. gentleman
also said the Persian war had been undertaken for a
shameful cause. Was the march of the Persians upon
Herat a shameful cause ? He (Nlr. V. Smith) believed
that every person who was at all acquainted with the East
would admit that there never was a juster cause than that
for commencing such a war. But the right hon, gentleman
went on to say, or rather appeared to insinuate, that the
Government shrank from the discussion of the question.
They had no intention to shrink from it ; and, as far as
he (Mr. V. Smith) was concerned, be was most anxious
and desirous to meet any charges which might be made
on the subject. It had been the intention of the Go-
vernment to lay the Persian papers before the house
when it met, and those papers were in preparation
when negotiations with Persia began at Paris ;
and there appearing to be some probability of a
settlement, the Government wisely and discreetly ab-
etaibed tr to producing any papers which might inter
e
fere with the proeress of those negotiations. When the
bon. member fur Aylesbury (\lr. Layard) asked if the
papers would be produced, he told him that the ordi-
nary, usual, and constant practice of Pal lietnent was not
to produce them until the negotiations had terminated ;
and it was quite clear that it was very unadvisable to
have in this country dieoaseicres which might affect the
Power with whom they were treating. It was impos-
sible to argue the Persian question without entering into
details, or without there being accusations and recrimi-
nations on tee one side and the other; and therefore in
declining to produce the papers they had followed a pre-
cedent which was a most proper one, and prevented
w
further misunderstanding with foreign States with
which we were in negotiation. Toe right honourable
gentleman also said that due eelerence was not
shown to Parliament in the corniuct of these pro-
ceedings by , the Government. now
stood
the against
case
at
e Thewrs eh period x p ; i i o
n Parliamentwat w
not sent
az, n
out
until t
Sitting. 6t.
`The Prto"clamation of war in India was made on
the Ist Oct., S
c t .e p
, and reached England in the middle of Dec.
At.that tune Parliament had been Comm •tied for the 2 i
of Feb., and to have called it together at an earlier period
OD such a question would hare been most in xoedieu t,
because the meeting of Parliament in the receee was not
only attended by what be would now put aside, viz
sonal inconvenience to members, but caused co'usid" Phelr. alarm throughout the country--the funds fell tradeera e
affected, and much greater excitemenitt,pi revelled tlsanrww;
sometimes justified by the cause. vv
India, it seas utterly impossible to
conrseuglatrdPtaorllmennt
before entering upon thew. To call Parliament together
for that purpose was to give notice to
equivalent to a declaration of war, for the fact would be
conveyed by telegraph to Persia, and would reach that
country long before the expedition could be Beet out.
He therefore considered that it would be prejudicial to
the public service to take such a course
aggravated or alarming cases ; and surely tthheatcaosaetegofy
Persian war could not be said.to beloy
fn
g
thtoe house would
except inofvethrye
lie did not believe that a
be found to say that the
geessive war. He be-
cause, or that it was an
uujut"w°hen Liao house knew all
uei 'ja°rrr inat-gr ose from a shameful
tea
lieved, on the contrary,
would be perfectly satisfied that it
the circumstances it
.-le a war as was ever undertaken,
was as just and
A defensible
of it. He was not Sony that
and he rejoice,. at the
was
made
jittniotnheasEtaosott„
totheaid Persian
Wulf that demonstration
and executed by the
and that they •
f India,
authorities o
as they had displayed. If the noble lord
such energy
be would say it had done much for oar
Gwauslftno°u7inbtebuetadseu.rcthaiatenne, xpplarleco,
prestige in the East, and ho was not sorry it had been
undertaken. He hiligenhad /leen merely to make a denial of the
statements eanlit: of the light bon, gentleman as regarded the
production of papers on the discussion of the mat-
ter in that house, as though Government were un-
willing to cubutit the subject to Parliament. On the con-
trary, they had gone further than other Governments
had gone, for they had submitted a vote for part of the
expenses to Pat Lament, and had thereby submitted the
matter to the judgment of the house, partly on the score
of the justice of their case, and partly on the ground that
they were prepared for the discussion that might follow
on the subject. The case of Naples, with iegatd to whit%