The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-04 00:00:00

rHE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAIY EVENING, JULY 4_ 1857

made to the noble lord to name some day for the discus-
sion of Indian affairs.

Lord C. HAMILTON thought that numerous ap-
peals to the noble lord proved that the house was not
quite so indifferent to Indian affairs as the right hon.
gentleman supposed. He (Lord C. Hamilton) thought
the Government were anxious to evade the discussion
of Indian matters. If they did not, however, fix a day,
it was not unlikely that hon. members would take their
own course, and bring the subject before the house upon
whatever occasion an opportunity might offer.
Mr. TURNER said that a very strong interest was
felt upon Indian affairs in the country generally, if not
in that house, and he regretted the noble lord did not
name a day for the discussion of the whole subject.
The subject was the❑ allowed to drop.
PONTEFRACT ELECTION.

Mr. HEA.DLAM appeared at the bar, and read from
the report of the committee, that they had found Wm.
Wood duly elected ; that it had not been established to
the satisfaction of the committee that any' act of treating
or of bribery had been committed at Pontefract during
the last election ; but that the evidence of the petitioner
proved that at th election in 1852, Mr. Oliveira had,
shortly after the election, paid about 3,0001., with the
knowledge that a considerable part of that sum was for
illegal expenditure ; that a petition was presented, and
that the wife of Mr. Oliveira had procured the same to
be withdrawn by the payment of a sum of 2,0001., and
that a further sum of 1,2501. was sent down to Ponte-
fract by Mr. Oliveira, for the discharge of outstanding
claims for the election of 1852 ; and that the sum was
known by Mr. Oliveira to have been employed for dis-
charging claims for bribery and treating.

come when all the colonies would pravide their own go-
vernors.

Mr. BRISCOE wished to know whether the charge
for Jamaica was to he permanent ?
Mr. LA.BOUCHERE had pledged himself to the pre-
sent governor to endeavour to obtain it as long as he
continued in office.

Mr. CROSSLEY thought all the colonies should pay
their own governors.

Mr. WILLIAMS withdrew his amendment.
The vote was then agreed to.
21,4501. for the salaries of stipendiary justices in the
West Indies.

Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the first item of 7,2007.
for magistrates in Jamaica. The charge had been in-
troduced at the time of the emancipation of the slaves,
but now appeared to be permanent.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the charge would not
be permanent unless the magistrates were immortal.
The arrangement was that as they died out their places
should not be filled up, and there was a reduction of
2,850/. in the ♦ote this year in consequence of deaths.
Mr. BENTINCK did not wish the vote to pass with-
out calling to the recollection of the committee the
treatment which the West India Islands had received
from the mother country, and the distress it had pro-
duced.

Tie ♦ote was then agreed to, as was the next,
10,2301. for the civil establishment on the western coast
of Africa.

19,6091. for charges connected with the Island of St.
Helena.

Mr. WILLIAMS asked for an explanation as to the
sum of 18,8141. which the governor had drawn from the
commissariat chest in four years, from 1847 to 1851,
under a misunderstanding, as it was now alleged, and
which sum the house was called on to make good this
year.
Mr. WILSON said until a few years ago the colony
of St. Helena was supported by 'a vote of that house. In
1846 it was determined that it should in future pay its
own expenses. The governor of the colony at that
period, misapprebending the instructions which be re-
ceived from the Colonial-office, thought he was justified
in drawing upon the commissariat chest, as he bad
theretofore done, on account of deficiencies in the ex-
penses of the island. That went on for about four years
without being discovered, when a Treasury minute was
passed ordering the repayment of the money ; but the
colony being unable to pay anything beyond its current
expenses, the money had not been repaid. Under these
circumstances it was thought best to prepare a separate
estimate to make good the deficiency.
Thu vote was then agreed to, as were also the fol-
lowing :-
960/. for the colony of Heligoland, and 3,8311. for the
Falkland Islands.

On the vote of 5,7001. for Labuan,
Mr. WILLIAMS asked for explanation of the
grounds on which the vote still appeared in the esti-
mates, notwithstanding the admitted failure of the
colony.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he must admit that La-
buan had hitherto been a source of great disappoint-
ment as well as expense. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time, he thought the Government who first took the
matter n p were quite justified in pursuing
that course, considering that there was a magnificent
harbour, and. that the coal mines were of great apparent
importance in reference to communication with the east.
The company that undertook to work the coal mines
had not certainly been as successful as it was ex-
pected to be, but the government were not disposed to
give up the matter until the enterprise had had a fair
trial.

Mr. MAGUIRE thought it was not essential to a
fair trial that the treasurer should receive 5001. a year.
Mr. LA.BOUCHER,E considered it necessary that
the treasurer should be a gentleman on whom full reliance
could be placed.
The vote was then agreed to.
10.00©/. was then voted for the colony of Hong Kong.
On the vote of 13,424/, for the expanses of the Emi-
gration Board,
Mr. ADDERLEY said at the time when this vote
commenced the colonies took hardly any part in the
promotion of emigration. They now took a very active
part. At one time it was a great object with the im-
perial legislature to induce the poor to emigrate, because
there was supposed to be a surplus population. The
reverse was the case now. It was, however, still a
great object with the colonies, and he hoped it would
long continue to be so, fo encourage emigration from
Great Britain in preference to emigration from any
other part of the world ; and it followed from this that
they should bear the burden of the expenditure. Under
these circumstances he thought the Emigration Board
should ba discontinued. There was one portion of the
vote which he had no wish to interfere with, namely,
that which comprised the expense of the officers who
were entrusted with the carrying out of the Passengers
Act, bnt he saw no reason why those officers should not
be attached to the Colonial Office. If no alteration
took place before next year, he should then call the at-
tention of the house to the subject, and move that the
Emigration Board be abolished.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the hon.-gentleman seemed
to think that the business of the Emigration Commis.
sioners was diminished, but he could assure him that
such was not the case. He had indeed been enabled to
recommend that the establishment should be diminished
to the amount of one commissioner, and he believed that,
notwithstanding the carrying out of that recommenda-
tion two years ago, no public department was better
conducted. The board had still very important duties
to perform, in connexion with passenger vessels, Coolie
emigration, and claims made on the Treasury, and it
would, for the present at least, be quite impossible to
dispense with their services.

kr. BRISCOE would be sorry to see the vote discon-
tinued,
that
t i n u e d , believing
hteo ach soew
toe tfhhhae dn
emigrationreeeseusat ti et
yd
two or
from h:llaAbGounrisßeEf the board oianrdoridnetr
ships.
hf oer havingkeew emigrationeneeaee,
tha
t eI
a officers,
largehe
vessel,wishe wished
ia
three hundred emigrants were about to mbwarlicel-1
it was discovered that one-half of what was term"endwbrhichd
was in reality
occasion
ot
uhs
sailed
i wlfeoadramf
froooufmnd t
o biscuits.be pro-
vided another case, a
hookerfe rloe,
inspection
cscsO O tone was examined
the by the
cameor
mfixi menaat l
eoadns
andgs herid et crew.ha enportoffit
took
i
aloeoffif otcnteehrrse
Liverpool,i:threeivae ds
satehel timesd,e
wloaahs
et
she was driven into Cork harbour in
vided with the full complement
d officers
away twelve of the men. After sailing, the vessel
en-
countered a storm, and. the crew being insufficient t
manage her,
principle free
very
bad condition, with all the emigrants on board
o Board prevented the colonies from doing all
EraMigrr.aKtilnNNA-IRD
feared that the existence of the
complaints in.lrelend that it depended in a
that
l rthey
AmNi gel do
wished to
know,
what
emigration was encouraged by the Government! There
were many
great degree on political influence. He should be glad
to know whether it was tc be understood that free
emi-
gration was to be confined to artisans and domestic ser.
vants f
1-!nielleuis at allration of which he might events, had nothing to do
Mr. LABOUCHERE could assure the hon. gentleman
thatwith ptohleitmicaatltienrfi,
inob-
serve that all the appointments in the emigration de-
partment were made by its permanent head. The prin-
ciple on which free passages were given was that of en-
deavouring to meet the requirements of the colonies, as
communicated on their behalf to the commissioners.
The board endeavoured to send out such emigrants as,
from their age and condition, were most likely to prove
useful members of colonial society.
The vote was then agreed to.
2,1751. was voted to discharge the balance due to the
eommissariat chest, on account of relief afforded to dis-
tressed emigrants in Canada.
HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
On the proposal to grant 120,0001. for the steam pac-
ket harbour and the harbour of refuge at Holyhead,
Mr. LINDSAY observed that the original estimate
under this head having been 650,0001., the expenditure,
including the present estimate, amounted to no less than
1,303,0001. Nor could it be supposed that if this vote
were agreed to the outlay would stop there, for it was
proposed to extend the pier 500 feet further into the sea.
The expenditure which had been incurred had been de-
fended partly on the ground of the increasing trade of
Holyhead. Froin an official paper which he held in his
hand, it appeared that in the six months ending the 30th
June, 1852, the number of vessels that entered the har-
bour was 255, and that in the six months ending June 30,
1856, the number was 1,117. He was curious to know
what tonnage these figures represented. The tonnage of
the 255 vessels was 15 283 tons, or 60 tons each ; while if
1 steamer of 80 tons re sister entered the port of Holyhead
every day, that would only give a tonnage of 14,600
tons. Why,
of Holyhead and anchor there each day, the return from
if his own ships were to enter the harbour
that would amount to the fabulous sum of 3,000,000
tons. But the government seemed to have an intention
to bring the American packet service to Holyhead ; but
if the American service were to be changed, it would go
to some point far west—either Milford Haven or Gal-
way. The fact was, that these harbours of refuge would
never be finished so long as money was voted by the
House of Commons. He would not divide the committee
at that moment, nor propose any reduction, but wait
until the First Lord of the Admiralty had an opportun-
ity of explaining this vote.
Sir C. WOOD said that the hon. member seemed un-
der a misapprehension upon this subject, for so far back
as 1847 it was
decided that this harbour should be a har-
bour of refuge as well as a packet station. The house
had already had ample information on this subject. In
1843
a commission
was aointed and a report made ; in
1844 an engineer reported; in 1846 another commission
reported ; and then the Treasury made the necessary ad-
vances. The hon member also seemed to think that
this harbour was being increased on the ground of the
trade of Holyhead. Nothing of the kind. There was in
fact no trade—certainly none worth speaking of—being
carried on at Holyhead. It was purely as a harbour
of refuge. Another misapprehension of the hon. mem-
Holy head,
mem-
ber was the idea which he entertained that it was in-
tended to shift the point of stoppage of the American
packets to Holyhead The truth was this—it had been
hon. gentlenaan
found that occasionally the American packets touches at
might take advantage of such stoppages either to take
increasing from
and it had therefore been suggested that they
in or land their passengers, or to take in or drop their
mails. But the great fact which stood in the way of the
t10812,r
refuge
gfoeu
inn('
number of ships availed themselves of this harbour at
Holyhead. 's complaint was this—that a very large
And that number had increased, and was
What the house ought to consider was the number of
vessels takingyear to year, and from month to month.
tonnage. Starting
refuge in the harbour, not the amount of
Starting from the half-year ending in June,
ye
exatr half-gear 25 5 vessels
the
that
thathat
harbourdur i during ; thati n
thhael
numberhalf-year
was 259 ; in the next, 483 ; in the next, 810 ;
in the next, 831 ; in the next, 840 ; in the next, 634 ;

in the next, 872 ; in the next, 1,117 ; and in the last
half-year, 1,325. These figures alone showed the value
of the harbour, and justified him in asking the committee
to accede to the vote.

Sir C. NAPIER, warted to know whether the packets
from Ireland were included in those numbers which had
just been given to the committtee, for if so they alone
would explain the increase.

Mr. B.ENTINCK thought the gallant member had
fall .n into a mistake. The numbers which the right hon.
baronet had read referred to the new harbour, wbereas
the packets stopped at the old harbour. (Hear, hear,
from Sir C. Wood.) This, therefore, met the objection
of the hon. and gallant member.

Mr. LINDSAY said that the words of the vote
showed that the intention of the Government was to
make this port a postal station for America. So far as
the increased number of ships went, the amount of ton-
nage in the returns furnished, showed that many of
them-could be but fishing smacks.
Mr. KINNAIRD pointed out that one of the main
objects of a harbour of refuge was the saving of life ;
and whether that was saved—so long as it was saved—
o❑ board great ships or small ones, was immaterial.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY thought there ought to be an in-
quiry before making this port a point of departure for
America. Some such ulterior result, he believed was
at the bottom of the vote.

Mr. LOCKE protested against the increase which had
been made upon this vote. If such things were allowed,
it was impossible for the house to keep a due guard over
the public purse.

Air. SCHNEIDER bore testimony to the benefits
which Holyhead Harbour had conferred on the coasting
trade.

Mr. HUDSON thought that something ought to be
done for the harbours of the north of England, which,
as matters stood, were taxed and, got nothing in return
from the national exchequer. He did not find fault with
the present vote, but he asked the Government not to
spend all their money upon one place to the exclusion of
the north of England.
The vote was then agreed to.
224,000/. harbours of refuge.
Mr. HENLEY called attention to the expenditure on
the works at Dover, and wished to know whether the
whole of the plan of the commissioners was to be car-
ried out ? The hon. member proceeded to recapitulate
the various reports of commissioners from 1834 up to the
latest period, inferring from thence that the great pre-
ponderance of decision was so conclusively in favour of
Dover as a harbour of refuge as to make its completion
a national necessity. Having gone through this prelimi-
nary matter, he turned to the progress of the works in
that harbour, asserting that the country should have
some certain information as to what Government meant
to do with this great work. The first contract was taken
for 800 feet, the second for 1,000 feet, but all proceeding
on the improved plan of 1839-40. Up to the present time
the progress of the works had been extremely slow,
only 1,800 feet out of 1/ mile. The rate was not more
than 100 feet per annum ; indeed it did not proceed even
at that rate. The committee were aware that this work
was being constructed by means of the diving bell, and
no praise could be too great of the skill and perseverance
of the engineers and other persons connected with the
work. The Secretary of the Treasury said the other night
it works of this kind—speaking of Halyhead harbour—
' were carried out at all, they ought to be done quickly,
as, until they were completed, a great amount of capital
was locked up, and yielded no return. With every
word of that he concurred. Mr. Walker and
Mr. L. Vignolles both recommended that this work
should be carried on at two points at once ; but that
I had not been done. He would now call attention to the
state of progress of these works. In 1854, 800 feet were
completed ; 1,000 feet more to be completed in 1864.
They were now in deep water, and there remained to be
carried out besides these 1,808 feet which were contracted
for, 8,000 feet, and at the rate of progress which had
hitherto been maintained it would be 85 years before
the work was completed. But this was not all, because
from the greater difficulty of laying the foundations in
1855 only 46 feet were put in, and in 1856 50 feet. At
this rate they would not finish the work for 200 years.
In 1855 Mr. Walker reported that the progress of the
work was delayed from the chalky foundation proving
not so good as near the shore, and that in three months
t hey had been obliged to go 2 feet deeper. In Ju1y,1856,
Mr. Walker said the soft nature of the bottom still re-
tarded the progress of the works. In Oct., 1856, another
change took place, and they got to the depth of 45 feet.
In April, 1857, Mr. Walker said they were now at a
depth of 46 feet on a foundation of broken flint and sand,
which, however, he did not think was a very bad foun-
dation. He thought he was quite warranted from these
statements in asking what time the Government ex-
pected this work to be completed, if they determined to
go on with it ! He also wished to know if any measures
had been taken by Government to know what the silt-
ing up had been ? He should also like to be informed
what injury had been done by storms? In a report of
Mr. Walker's in 1851, it was stated that in a storm
which happened in that year, 200 tons of stones were
displaced. In 1853 something of the same kind took
place, and 240 feet of the staging was carried away in
1855. These things accounted for the slow progress of
the work, but he thought that these facts made it the
more important for them to know if Government in-
tended to go on with the work, and at what speed.
After a few words from Mr. AYRTON,
Sir C. WOOD said his hon. friend had gone at some
length into the subject which had led to the formation of
various harbours of refuge, of which Dover was one. He
did not know that it was necesary for him to follow him
in that statement, and if any gentleman had the slightest
curiosity to read it in greater detail, he might do so by re-
ferring to the evidence given on miscellaneous expendi-
ture in 1843 before the committee on which he was ex-
amined at great length on this subject. Two commissions
had sat upon this matter, it was fully considered for a con-
siderable period by different governments, and the result
was that in the year 1847 the works at Dover were com-
menced. The right hon. gentleman had very truly stated
that a very great number of gentlemen learned in such
matters had been examined, and that they had given very
discordant opinions. He (Sir Charles Wood) was afraid
that the house, if they continued to discuss the question
of construction, would not be more likely to agree than
the great engineers to whom he had referred. With re-
gard to the important question whether the Government
had made up its mind to construct the whole harbour as re-
commended by the committee, he was afraid that he could
not give a very decided answer; because it was a question
whic had never yet been seriously discussed by any go-
vernment. What was recommended as indispensable at
the commencement of the larger harbour, and what was
most valuable in itself, if the ultimate dehision should be
to go no further, was to carry out the pier from Cheese-
man's Head into seven fathoms water; and that was all
the Government decided on doing, namely, to carry out
the pier 730 feet, beginning at Cheeseman's Head. The
period calculated for the completion of that work in the
report of the commission was seven years, and in seven
years it was completed. In 1853 a second contract was
entered into for an extension of the work 1,000 feet fur-
ther, which would accomplish the original design of car-
rying out the pier to the westward of the existing harbour
into-6i or 7 fathoms water. That, then, was the extent
to which any decision had been come. That length had
been contracted for, and even if the ultimate decision
should be not to construct the larger harbour, a most
valuable work would have been executed, not only for the
protection of the present harbour, but for providing the
means of holding any sized steamers at any time of the
tide. The hon. gentleman opposite had asked what would
be the effect of the work upon the present harbour, and
be was happy to be able to say that, so fas as the shingle
was concerned, it had been most satisfactory. The result
showed that the erection of the pier had had the desired
effect of preventing the accumulation of shingle, and
affording very great protection, so far as it went, from
the south-west gales, which were the dangerous winds at
Dover; whilst the work itself bad been executed in a
manner that reflected the highest credit both on the
engineer and contractor. With reference to the rate
of progress, that depended entirely upon the amount of
money voted by the house. But it could not be said
that what bad been done had not already been of the
greatest possible utility. It was not a work which would be
useless until the whole was complete. On the contrary, as
EOM as a certain portion of it was constructed a certain
effect was produced, which effect would be increased by
every 50 feet that were added to it. With regard to the
question of silting up the harbour, he found on inquiry that
the breakwater had not in that respect produced any per-
ceptible effect one way or the other.

Sir C. NAPIER did not see how Dover could ever be
properly termed a harbour of refuge, for how was it possi-
ble that vessels could get round the Foreland to it in a wes-
terly gale ? Its only use would be to serve as a harbour for
our steamers in time of war, and so to protect the thousands
of vessels which covered the Downs. It was perfect non.
sense to regard it in any other light, and ho advised the
Government, therefore, to finish off the works they had
now on hand. In his opinion, if a harbour of refuge was
made anywhere, it ought to be either at Sandwich, or in
proximity to the Goodwin Sands. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. W. BENTINCK said that what the house had
heard from Mr. Henley and Sir Charles Napier showed
pretty clearly that the best thing to do was to stick to the
original plan of 1,800 feet from Cheesoman's Head. The
point they had now to consider was, who was the respon-
sible party to originate these harbours, to decide upon the
locality, and also upon the manner in which the works
should be carried out. That was a point which ought to be
clearly understood before they came to a decision. A
committee had recently been appointed to inquire into the
subject of harbours of refuge, and it was not his intention
to offer the slightest disrespect to these gentlemen ; but he
must say that to submit to such a committee questions
like these he had just mentioned, was simply ridiculous. It
was utterly impossible for the ablest men in that house to
deal with these subjects, for this reason—that the evidence
they had to examine was such that they must be able to test
from practical knowledge the value of that evidence before
they could arrive at a decision. Every gentleman who was
conversant with inquiries before committees of this house
knew that local engineers would often express the strongest
opinions in favour of their own particular locality, no
doubt in good faith, but still influenced by local preju-
dices. Now, unless, the committee was composed entirely
of engineers, he defied them to test the value of such evi-
dence, and ascertain which was the man who was giving
evidence, and which was trying to impose upon the com-
mittee. When they came to decide as to the best locali-
ties for harbours of refuge they came to a still more diffi-
cult question ; and this committee, on which he believed
there was only one naval man, would have to decide which
was the best locality, say on the east coast of England, for
a harbour of refuge, upon the evidence of North Sea pilots
and masters of coasters. In a ease like that what possible
chance had a committee of this house, unless practically
conversant with the subject, of cross-questioning with any
advantage men of that description ? The thing wasurse:
less. The fact was that they were going on in the Clark,
and unless they knew the authority upon which thosek
works were to be carried out the sooner they were put
stop to the better. He trusted, then that the house would
be informed what were the questions referred to the com-
mittee just appointed, and hew far it was intended the
inquiries of that committee should extend. He protested
against the harbour of Alderney as a useless waste o public
money. It was said that it would be a valuable station
from which to watch Cherbourg' in time of war ; but it was
not nearly Bo well adapted for that purpose as the old har -
hours of Portsmouth and Plymouth. fie felt, therefore,
disposed to move that the vote be reduced by the item for
Holderness. As to Portland, he was glad to learn that it
was in every respect a most useful work.
Sig G. PECHELL had always understood Dover to be
less a harbour of refuge than one of aggression; for, as the

Duke of Wellington had well said, in cass of an attack from
the French coast, we should have the sun in our faces.
Tho difference bet:eeeu the progress of the works at Dover
and these at Portland was very great, acid there could be
no doubt that it was much more easy t) carry on the works
at Dover than those at Portland.

Mr. LID DELL believed the harbours at Dover, Portland,
and Alderney, were the bases of a great system of national
defence, which hal received the sanction, approval, and
recommendation of the Duke of Wellington ; and he
thought these works ought not to be placed in the esti-
mates under the title of harbours of refuge. The works at
Dover would involve an expenditure of 5,000,0001., those
at Alderney 1,300,0001., and those at Jer ey from 600,0001.
to 700,0001. He thought the house ought to know the ulti-
mate expense of the completion of these harbours. Repre-
senting, as he did, an impoi tint constituency in the north
of E❑gland, it washis duty to point out to the Government
that whilst they were sanctioning an expenditure upon an
enormous scale upon a coast which was not favourable,,,to
the construction of harbours of refuge, there was no har-
bour of refuge between the Humber and the Forth, whilst
the proportion of wrecks was far greater on that part of
the coast thin on any other.
Mr. LINDSAY did not think the Government justified
in spending such large sums at Dover and Alderney, when
the establishment of harbours of refuge on the north-east
coast was totally neglected. He thought the question of
the expenditure at Dover and Alderney ought to be referred
to the committee which had been appointed to consider
the subject, and proposed that the vote be reduced by the
sum of 134,0001.
Sir J. JOHNSTONE agreed in the remarks of the hon.
member (Mr. Liddell) with respect to the neglected state
of the north-east coast, where the casualties amounted to
ene•half those which actually occurred. He was glad that
a committee had been appointed, and felt satisfied they
would come to the conclusion that a large expenditure
ought to be incurred in the construction of harbours on
that coast. (Hear.)
Mr. WARRE thought the proposition of the hon. mem-
ber for Tynemouth (Mr. Lindsay) most unreasonable, as it
was calculated to impede the progress of works which ought
to be completed.
Mr. HENLEY could not votefor the reduction proposed
by the hon. member for Tynemouth, because he considered
it necessary to complete the works which had been com-
menced, otherwise the expenditure hitherto incurred would
be thrown away. It was clear from the statements which
had been made that Dover could no longer be considered a
harbour of refuge. The breakwater was intended to im-
prove the entrance to the harbour, to make it a packet
station, and to facilitate the coaling of steamers. In fu-
ture the charge ought to appear is the Post-office or naval
estimates.

Sir C. WOOD said the harbours now under discussion
were notaggressive but military defensive harbours. When
they were commenced, as it was not desirable to attract
the attention of neighbouring nations, they were veiled
under the name of harbours of refuge. (Laughter.) The
intention was to construct harbours where vessels might
lie for the defence of our coast—and be ready to intercept
any enemies coming up channel. The Duke of Wellington
had clearly pointed out the superior means of observation
possessed by France, and it was thought necessary to con-
struct these military defensive harbours on the south and
south-eastern coast of England. With respect to harbours
of refuge on the north-east coast, it was no doubt desirable
that everything possible should be dono for them, but they
must be looked upon as harbours of refuge for the pur-
poses of trade. Dover was a station for military defence
and the protection of trade, and the breakwater at that
port would afford a shelter within which steamers might
lie in safety, and take in coal with the greatest ease. Al-
derney was adapted for the same purpose, and from that
station nothing could leave Cherbourg and other places
along that coast without being observed. (Hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK said that Alderney was not the best
place to watch Cherbourg, for they were not in sight of
each other. He should have wished some explanation from
the Secretary to the Treasury as to the subjects with which
the committee he was to preside over was to deal with;
and he (Mr. Bentinck) still thought that a commission
would be a better means of inquiring.
Mr. PEASE said he deplored what he thought a serious
waste of money on these harbours ; but he thought it
would be best to direct the energies of the house not to the
past but to the consideration of the subject which was to
come before the committee which had been appointed to
inquire into the whole question of these harbours.
The amendment was negatived and the vote agreed to.
The next vote was 12,0001. for the maintenance of cap-
tured negroes and liberated Africans.
After some observations from Sir G. PECHELL,
Mr. GREGORY was desirous of knowing the circum-
stances under which 1,2911. had been given to ex-King
Pepple, and what were his peculiar merits over the other
African chiefs who bad received much smaller gratuities.
Mr. AYRTON said he knew King Pepple. He was King
of Bonny, and made a treaty with the British Government
to assist in putting down the slave trade, and the payment
in the vote was a balance of the subsidy which was to be
paid under that treaty. He was deposal and driven out
of his dominions, and was now in this country endeavour-
ing to obtain some assistance from the Government.
Mr. WILSON said this was on account of the vote
which had been granted last year.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote 11,0501. for the expenses of the mixed
Commission for the Suppression of the Slave Trade, was
agreed to.
On the next vote, 185,0891., for the expense of consular
establishments abroad,
Mr. WISE said at that hour of the night he could not
enter on this subject, but he would ask if, next session,
the Government would appoint a committee to inquire
into the whole question of our consular establishments.
Lord PALMERSTON said that last year the Govern-
ment gave a pledge that this year a committee would be
appointed for that purpose, and the only reason why it
was not appointed in February last was, that certain re-
turns and information which were necessary to the inquiry
were not ready. The dissolution of Parliament had since

prevented the appointment of the committee this year.
He could assure the house that such a committee would be
appointed early next year.
Mr. A. KINGLAKE said he had given notice of his in-
tention to ask whether Government was in possession of
any information respecting the present condition of the
Tartar inhabitants of those parts of the Crimea which were

occupied during the late war by the troops of the allies;
and also to ask when, and at what places, British consuls
were to be appointed, pursuant to the 12th article of the
Treaty of Paris. It would probably be recollected that on
the landing of our troops in the Crimea, and on the forma-
tion of a Land Transport Corps, a number of arabas and
beasts of the country were hired, and it was found penes-

sary also to hire native drivers, inasmuch as the animals
were unaccustomed to threats and execrations addressed to
them in the French or English languages. Those persons
went with the army to the Alma, and on to Balakiava,
and remained during all the sufferings of the winter of
185 i. The Tartars at Eupatoria, and the other natives
who had been in the employment of our troops, became
committed to their own Government, although the Tartars
did not show much sympathy with the invasion. As these
persons had been in a manner forced into the service by
the military power of the invaders, it became the solemn
duty of the allies when they ceded the invaded territory
again to Russia, to stipulate for the protection of those
persona, and to obtain a complete amnesty for them. We
had succeeded in holding the country in which they lived
till the conclusion of peace, and then obtained a guar-
antee that no harm should came to them, and it was
now our duty to see that the treaty in this respect was
put into execution. He should like to see at Eupatoria
and Sebastopol consular establishments, at which these
persons could state any grievances they might suffer
from the Russian Government.. It was rumoured that a
large portion of the Tartar inhabitants of that part of the
Crimea which was occupied by our troops, had migrated
into the territory of the Porte. The Russians were for-
merly in the habit of refusing to allow consuls to be sta-
tioned at Sebastopol and the western ports of the Black
Sea. But that was to be changed according to the stipu-
lations of the treaty of Paris ; but he found that there
were only consuls at present appointed to those ports
where they existed before the war.
Viscount PALMERSTON said the hon. and gallant
member had stated correctly the course of the transaction

to which he had alluded, and he had also stated accurately
the stipulations of the trety of peace with regard to the
appointment of consuls. In reply to the hon. and gallant
member's question, he had to state that the Foraign-office
was now occupied in making arrangements for establishing
consuls in those places where by the stipulations of the
treaty consulates were to be established. With regard to
the Tartars, the hon. and gallant member was also right
as to the fact, but the transaction took place at a different
time to that to which he referred. When the allies left
the Crimea there was a large number of Tartar families
who, having been engaged in their service, did not feel full
confidence in their position if they remained in the Rus-
sian territory. Ten thousand of these families applied to
the allies to be removed from the Russian to the Turkish
territory. Accordingly they were sent to the northern
part of Turkey—viz., to Bulgaria. The Turkish Govern-
ment acted with great liberality to these persons, gave
them lands, and provided them with the means of support
and other assistance, until they could subsist by their own,
industry. The Government had not heard from our am-
bassador at Constantinople that there had been any com-
plaints on the part of these people of the engagements
entered into by the Turkish Government not having been
fulfilled, and therefore he presumed they were contented
with their lot.
Mr. WHITESIDE complained of the number of assistant
registrars of the record at Hong Kong, and he wished to
know what were their duties. Then there were 13 super-
numerary interpreters and four linguists. The expense of
the establishment at Hong Kong in this way was 10,4241.
If he did not receive a satisfactory explanation ho would
propose to reduce the number of officers by one-half.
Mr. WILSON explained that the word assistant meant
clerk. The first assistant was keeper of the records; thti
others had nothing to do with the records, but were en-
gaged in the general business of the government. The in-
terpreters it had been found necessary to appoint for the
purpose of filling important offices as vacancies occurred,
and were for that purpose placed in a position where they
would acquire a knowledge of the Chinese language. The
trade with China was greatly increasing, and it was obvi-
ously inconvenient that persons should be sent out to take
important offices as representing the trade of this country
with China who did not know the language.
Mr. WHITESIDE was not satisfied with the explana-
tion. It appeared that these interpreters were not inter-
preters, but young Englishmen learning the Chinese lan-
guage. As the trade at Canton was put an end to, no in-
convenience would result from the abolition of the Canton
mission. He proposed to reduce the vote by 2,5331., the
salaries.

Mr. WISE supported the vote.
Viscount PALMERSTON thought the manner in which
the hon. and learned gentleman treated the question
showed that he was, as he said, completely in the dark
upon the question respecting which he sought to lead the
house. (A laugh.) The hon. and learned gentieman's
observations were not borne out by the facts. The duties
of Sir J. Bowrinc, and his assistants were not confined to
Canton, but extended to the whole of the other ports,
and involved very laborious duties. Had the honour-
able and learned gentleman known even the rudiments
of the Chinese language, he Would have known that
that was a language very difficult to acquire. But un-
less a tongue could make itself intelligible to ears for
the purpose of trade, communication would be use-
less ; and if we sent consuls to China it was necessary
they should know the Chinese language. It was re-
quisite, then, that you should send young men to acquire
that language—for it would not be wise to depend upon
natives on'all occasions as interpreters. Ho ventured to ex-
press an opinion, therefore, that no money was better laid
out than that which was expended in teaching these young
men that language. Whatever the amount of the Hong
Kong establishment, it was one that was not more than
sufficient for the purposes of the public service in China,
which involved, as the house was aware, a large and in-
creasing trade.
Mr. HENLEY sail his hon. and learned friend com.
plAined that the estimate was so worded that it was ina.