The Sun.
London, England, 1857-12-08 00:00:00

SCN LONDON, T I.T•E'SDAY: '.E V EN' NrY;--

the country, and to promote and secure the vg,Fare and
prosperity of my people in every part of my dominions."
INDIA.
_ _

Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that he should
to-morrow put questions to the President of the Board
of Control relative to the papers that have been
ordered with reference to India, whether they would
contain the memorial sent home from Calcutta, asking
for the withdrawal of the Governor-General, and whe-
ther the Government had any objection to lay on the
table of the house all the correspondence that had taken
place between them and the Peninsular and Oriental
Company relative to the transmission of troops to
India. He should also pat a question relative to the
state of Lord Clive's fund.
JOINT STOCK BANKS.
Mr. COWAN gave notice of an amendment to the
hon. member for Newcastle, relative to the limited lia-
bility of joint-stock banks.
THE JUNO'S COURTS MARTIAL.
Mr. WARREN asked the First Lord of the Admiralty
whether his attention had been called to a recent
naval court-martial held on an officer of her Majesty's
ship Juno, and whether any steps were contemplated
by the Government in respect thereto.
Sir C. WOOD need hardly assure the hon. and learned
gentleman that the attention of the Admiralty had been
called to the court-martial in question, and that they had
observed with the greatest pain that an officer of the
character and services of Captain Fremantle, himself the
son of one of our most distinguished officer➢, should have
placed himself in a position in which he had exposed him-
self to the severe and merited censure of the Board of
Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) At the same time it was
only fair that certain circumstances should be known
which had weighed with the Board of Admiralty, aad
which would no doubt weigh with the House of Com-
mons in forming its opinion. When Captain Fremantle
arrived to take charge of the Australian station he
received a letter from the Admiral, complaining of the
relaxation of discipline which had taken place on that
station. It was certainly true that her Majesty's ships
were in some parts of the world so scattered about
that it was sometimes impossible to hold courts-
martial, and naval discipline was therefore with
some difficulty upheld under these circumstances.
Where it was possible the Admiralty sent out officers
of different ranks, so that courts-martial might
be held, but this was not always practicable. Cap-
tain Fremantle had reason to take a stricter view of dia-
-1 cipline in consequence of the Admiral's letter. He was
not himself acquainted with Capt. Fremantle, but he
was assured by hon. members that it was impossible he
could have been actuated by any other motive than the
desire to act in the strict performance of his duty. He
believed that the lieutenant brought to court-martial ad-
mitted that Capt. Fremantle had been a greater sufferer
than himself from what had happened. He had had to
carry on almost all the executive duties of the ship, and
his health had broken down under it. The accounts of
the court-martial in the newspapers were substantially
correct, and hen, members must have observed that
when he appeared before the Court, Capt. Fremantle
was quite unable to flee from the duty of a public pro-
seuttor, which it was incumbent upon him to discharge.
He was not in a state either of bodily or mental health
to enable him to state the case in such a way as to give
an account either of his own conduct or that of the offi
cer on his trial. He (Sir C. Wood) did not impugn the
verdict of the court-martial, which he thought perfectly
just and right, and he was quite of opinion that the
lieutenant was entitled to his acquittal. But it made
some difference in their view of Captain Fremantle's
conduct, and the coarse which the Admiralty had pur-
sued, when they remembered that he was an officer of
high and unblemished character, and of 33 years' ser-
vice. It would be unjust if these circumstances did not
carry some weight. (hear.) At the same time, if the
Juno had been remaining in commission, the Board of
Admiralty would have felt it to be their duty to super-
sede Capt. Fremantle. As she was, however, under
orders to be paid off, and as she had come home with no
officer but the captain to conduct the duty, it would
have been inconvenient to have removed him from
the ship. It was, therefore, not from any regard
or feeling towards Captain Fremantle, but simply
for the convenience of the public service, that he
was not at once superseded. What the Board
felt it to be their duty to do was to write to the
Commander-in-Chief at Portsmouth, desiring him to
communicate to Captain Fremantle their opinion that,
considering all the circumstances, he had been unjust
in the course which he had pursued towards those officers;
that if there had been grounds for any charge they
ought to have been examined into on the spot, and that
he ought not to have subjected them to such a length-
ened period of arrest. (Hear, hear.) Captain Fre-
mantle would have been superseded if the Juno had re-
mained longer in commission, but it was thought more
convenient to pay her off. A severe censure had been
passed. The later remained on record at the Admiralty
and at the Commander-in-Chief's (office at Portsmouth
—a warning to all officers who might be placed in a si-
milar position. He thought that, taking into considera-
tion all the circumstances, and with a proper regard to
justice, the house would be satisfied if the Admiralty
took no further steps in the matter. (Hear )
THE REMOVAL OF 69TH REGIMENT FROM
PLYMOUTH TO PORTSMOUTH.
Mr. SCOTT—The 69th Regiment being quartered at
Portsmouth, asked her Majesty's Government, what was
the advantage and also the expense of moving it from
Plymouth to Portsmouth by rail, to embark there,
in order to return by sea to Plymouth before departing
for the East Indies, and by whose authority it was done.?
Sir J. RA.MSDEN said that he thought the hon.
gentleman had been misinformed of the facts of the case.
The hon. gentleman appeared to consider that the whole
regiment was taken from Plymouth to Portsmouth,
there to embark. The circumstances of the case were,
that three ships were taken up by the East India
Company to convey troops to Alex sndria. Two
of the ships went to Plymouth and embarked
troops, but the third being a mail ship, and prevented
from going to any other port than Portsmouth, one de-
tachment of the regiment was conveyed from Plymouth
to Portsmouth for the purpose of embarkation. The
troops were sent to Portsmouth on a communication of
the facts to the Board.
REFORMATORY SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
Mr. BAGWELL asked the Chief Secretary for Ire-
land, if it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern.
ment to introduce a bill for reformatory schools in
Ireland this session ?
Mr. H. HERBERT said that during the recess Go-
vernment would give their consideration to the subject,
and he hoped, after that, to be able to propose something
to the house on the subject that would be satisfactory to
all parties. (Hear, hear.)
THE SUPPLY OF GUANO.

Hr. CAIRD asked the Secretary of State for the
Colonies whether any obstruction on the part of the
British Commandant at Aden had been offered to the
employment, by the guano expedition to the Kooria
Mooria. Islands, of Arab and other labourers not natives
of India, and whether Government had taken steps to
remove such obstruction.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that labourers had been
obtained from various ports, but with regard to Aden,
he had been informed that through some mistake the
labourers of that place had been prevented going to the
Kooria Mooria Islands, but he had taken care to call the
attention of the East India Board to the circumstance.
The Board had the subject under their consideration.
THE BRITISH ENGINEERS AT NAPLES.
Mr. M. MILNES called the attention of the noble
lord (Palmerston) to the state of the British engineers
at Naples, having been informed that the Government
had received additional information relative to their

condition,
Lord PALMERSTON said that since he addressed
the house on Friday night a communication had been
received from Acting Consul Parkes, and from it he
found that the Rev. Mr. Pugh's statement did not give
a correct statement of the condition of these un-
fortunate men. The contradictory statement arose
from the man not knowing the rev, gentleman, and he
thought hon. members would fully comprehend the pri-
soners not being so communicative to a stranger as to the
acting consul, in the presence of the father of one of the
prisoners. What they complained of,he was:afraid, was no
exceptional case, because it was well known that the
Neapolitan prisons were really a disgrace to a civilised
country—(hear)—and that the treatment prioners were
there subjected to were more fitting a barbarous age than
the present time. However, the inquiry showed that the
prisoners had not ex?erienced anything like torture except
the unnecessary suffering of being handcuffed and

strapped in the manner known to the public. The re-
maining part of the noble lord's statement was similar
to the narrative published in The Sun of Saturday.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked if the noble lord would lay
the despatch on the table of the house.
Lsrd PALMERSTON said he thought there wag no
objection to that course. He reserved to himself the
right of expunging anything of a confidential nature.
CONYNGLIAM asked whether any steps were

likely to be taken to set the matter to right.' ? He

wished to know if the lives and liberties of Englishmen

were to be trifled with in this manner. (Cries of " Order.")
Lord PALMERSTON said that at present these men
were confined on a charge of having violated the

Neapolitan law. The Neapolitan government was

entitled to inquire into that charge, and all this country

could do was to see that the man were brought to a
speedy trial—tbat it was considered fairly—and that
they had the best legal advice that could be obtained in

that c)untry. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped.
PENSION TO GEN. HAVELOCK, K
Lord PALMERSTON brought up a message from
her Majesty recommending that a pension of 1,0001. a

year should be settled on General Havelook for hie dis-

inguished services in India. (Loud cheers.) He moved
,bat it be taken into consideration to-morrow. (Cheers.)
—Agreed to.

SUPPLY.
Mr. WILSON moved that the house should to-mor-
row go into supply.
Agreed to.

INDEMNITY BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the second reading of this bill.
Mr. GLADSTONE said there were two points he
wished to mention in reference to that bill, and to which
he thought he might pall the attention of the house con-
sistently with the beneficial understanding that was

come to on Friday night as to the general discussion.
One was a question w'aich might be said to relate to t'ee
wording of the bill. It was with respect to the manner
of drawing the first clause. The clause was as follows:
" All issues of Bank of England notes, made by the
Governor and Company of the Bank of England, and all
acts done with respect to issues, and the taking of secu-
rities in the issue department shall be confirmed and
made valid." Now, it appeared to him that there was
something anomalous in a direct indemnity from that
house to the Governor and Company of the Bank, so
framed as to include acts of which they knew nothing ;
the governor and company not being a public body, in
the sense of being responsible to that house. His ob-
jection was founded on principle, and if so, the mode
of curing it might be adopted without inconvenience.
He should propose to put a public body, responsible to
that house, between Parliament and those undefined
acts,. The object would be gained if, instead of iadem-
nifying the Bank with respect to all those acts done by
them in this matter, which should have received the
certified approval of the Commissioners of the Treasury;
who, being a responsible body, would be interposed
between Parliament and the acts of an irresponsible
body. (Hear, hear.) The other point was one which,
in these tines, it was not fashionable for the representa-
tives of a great commercial nation to refer to. This
was a question that seemed to have escaped his
right hon. friend on Friday night, but he had
no wish to press it now if he preferred delaying
his answer. The question related to the profits of the
issues, which had been made, and divided itself into three
parts. The first war, whether in principle, it was under-
stood that the profits of those issues would go not to the
Bank of England, but to the Government. In his opi-
nion those issues were, etrickly speaking, public money
resting on the security of public faith ; and he was even
sorry that the form had been observed of passing the
security for those moneys to the issue department of
the Bank of England ; for it tended to obscure the
truth, which was, that these were moneys issued by
Government, as much as Exchequer Bills, on the faith
of Parliament. The next point was, how were those
profits to be computed ; for there had been a great
deal of discussion as to that, and he was anxious
to know if the public were to receive the profits of the
issue, or the profits of discount. The profits of issue
were generally computed at 1 per cent., while the
profits of discount stood at ten per cent. According
to which of those rates were the public to benefit
The only remaining portion of his question was this
—the other night he understood his right hon. friend
to say that the amount of issue made was the amount
of issue to the public. Now it appeared to him (Mr.
Gladstone) that, strictly speaking, the amount of issue
was the amount of issue—the amount which proceeded
from the issue department. He wanted t 0 know,
therefore, whether the profits were to be calculated on
the amount of issue which had been made by the issue
department, or only on that part of it which had gene
forth into circulation, above the legal issue.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that, though he was no
party to the understanding which was come to on Friday
night, after seven hon. gentlemen had spoken for seven
hours, occupying fifteen columns of the morning news-
papers ; he was perfectly willing to conform to it, especially
as he believed no good was to be derived from a continued
currency debate. He thought, however, that the house were
about to pass an indemnity bill on very slender evidence.
That evidence, so far as it had yet gone, consisted of a state-
ment, eertainly a very clear statement, from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, and some Bank correspondence. He did
not at all question that the indemnity ought to be given,
but he wished to know whether it had come to the know-
ledge of her Majesty's Government that there hail been any-
thing in the shape of unfair action on the currency of the
country, and he asked the question with all the more de-
termination, as it appeared from the evidence of Mr. Chap-
man that it was quite possible for large speculators to
influence the currency very materially. At page 481, Mr.
Chapman gave an instance of the kind, where a capitalist
sold Consols to the extent of 1,000,0001., and retained the
notes himself, which, acting upon a low circulation, exer-
cised a very material influence on the currency. He should
wish to know whether the Government were aware of any-
thing of that kind having been done recently. Had there
been fair play towards the Bank of England ? Before, it
had examined that question through the instrumentality
of one of its committees, the house ought not to pass the
bill. It had nothing to do with the general question of
currency, but had a very important bearing on the subject
before them.
Mr. CAYLEY said he did not agree with the paragraph
in the Queen's Speech which referred the monetary dis-
turbance to the working classes. The commercial classes
had been the victims, and had been made the scapegoats
of a vicious currency system, which he believed to be the
cause of the monetary crisis we had recently passed
through. It had been too much the habit of public men
in this country, who had had a hand in the formation of
that system, to vindicate themselves, and to throw on
others the onus of the consequences of their own want of
sagacity. It was clearly not the result of over speculation
in the present case. Over speculators were constantly
finding their way into the Gazette, and there had been no
extraordinary number of them lately. Ou the other hand,
it was well known that there had been a largedrain of bul-
lion to India and the Continent, combined with a general
suspension in America. Those causes were suflicient in
themselves to create a degree of apprehension which no
bank could withstand, and he doubted whether even the
Bank of England itself could.j The Glasgow Bank failed
on the 10th or 11th, and on the 10th the rate of discount
was raised to 10 per cent. The Bank directors alleged that
the pressure was severe and sudden, and necessarily les-
sened the reserve. Previous warnings should have been kept
in recollection. In 1825 upwards of 100 banks failed, and
paid 17s. Gd. in the pound.,Subsequentlyto thatperiod joint
stock banks were established. In his evidence before a com-
mittee of that house Air. Cobden attributed the oscilla-
tions which occurred to the conduct of the Bank of Eng-
land. Everythlog proved that the present system ought to
be altered, or that it should be carried out. What he
wanted to show to the Government was this; that they
first of all stated that the letter to the Bank was occa-
sioned by the failure of joint-stook banks, as well as by the
failure of certain houses in the American trade; but in-
stead of saying that, they should have stated that the
letter was caused by the drain on the bullion. When he
made this observation he did not wish it to be understood
that he was an advocate for the present system of joint-
stock banks. He did not think the Bank of England had
any right to complain, as it did not pay any interest on
deposits which the joint-stock banks did. He could not
help observing, that as there were many commercial men
in the house, he felt astonished that they had not risen to
repel the insinuations which had been cast upon them in
the course of the debate. It would be recollected that
soon after the passing of the bill of 1841, the competition
of the Bank of England with the joint-stook banks reduced
the rate of discount two per cent., and made money easier.
The low rate of discount enabled the labourer to obtain
employment, and generally gave a stimulus to trade. As
regarded the late monetary crisis, it should be remembered
that since the peace there had been no fewer than ten such
visitations, which had the effect of sacrificing a large
thatital; and he saw as plainly as he
saw the of
sun commercial
noon
da ap
ythese periodical disasters
amount
ac
must continue. Now such a system should be inquired
into. Gold had been made the standard of value by law,
but the real standard of value was labour. He believed
the whole of their commercial system was a system of
sufferance, and disapproved of it because it was not prac-
ticable to meet the exigencies of the great commercial com-
munity. It was not their banking system which produced
distress, but the commercial community were asked to do
what it was utterly impossible they could perform.
Mr. CONINGHAM did not rise to oppose the Bill of In-
demnity—far from it; he thought the country was highly
indebted to the noble lord at the head of the Government
for the manner in which he interposed at a critical moment,
and relieved the country from a crisis which threat-
ened its convulsion, He regretted only one thing, and
that was, that the Government had not gone beyond the
Bill of Indemnity, and proposed to abrogate the law of
1814, which though not the cause of the recent commercial
distress had yet most seriously increased the severity. He
listened attentively, the other evening, to the clear and
lucid statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; the
clear and lucid diagnosis of the disease; and he thought
the right hon. gentleman gave up the whole case of the
act when he attempted to limit the issues of the Bank.
The noble lord the member for the City of London, La
declared himself to be the warm advocate of the bill of
1844, and the other night he indulged in some declamation
upon the great principles of the currency. He referred to
the three great panics of 1825, 1817, and 1857. In 1825
he admitted that the Bank was run out to within 100,0001.
of its last sovereign. But what was the remedy applied
then ? Why, the noble lord admitted that it was the suc-
cessful issue of paper. That restored confidence, and gra-
dually brought back the gold to the coffers of the Bank.
In 1841, the bill of Sir Robert Peel passed. That illus-
trious statesman took up the theory which it contained
rather hastily ; but it was a theory based on a fallacy,
which sooner or later must be exploded. Well, in 1847
another panic occurred, and what was the remedy for that?
Not the restriction of the paper circulation, but its exten-
sion. Again on that occasion the remedy did not fail. In
1857 another panic occurs, and again there was not a re-
laxation but an extension of issues, and he for one only
regretted that there should have been any check placed on
the larger and further extension of the paper issues of the
Bank by depriving the Bank of the profits arising from it.
To show to what extent theories might be carried the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had quoted the opinion of
one governor of the Bank, who stated in his evidence before
one of the committees, that the remedy for panic was—
what ? why, nut the relaxation but the contraction
of the issues, though he doubted whether it was worth
while to apply the remedy. (" Hear, hear," and
a laugh.) He thought it behoved the country to
take this matter into its most serious consideration.
It was not merely the truth or falsehood of a theory that
was at stake, but the very existence of a large number of
valuable subjects. It was perfectly certain that the only
check, the only necessary check, to limit the issue of bank
notes was, that the notes should be payable ou demand. It
had been clearly shown that while such a security was en-
forced, bank notes do not necessarily influence exchanges
or prices, and that being so it was of the utmost import-
ance to the trade and commerce of the country that there
should be a large extension of the issues from the coffers f

the Bank of England. --
Mr. MALINS entirely
concurred in the objects of the
bill, and believed the Government deserved great praise for
the course they had pursued,
but it should have been done
earlier. He could not help expressing his surprise and re-
gret that what was done on 12th Nov. had not been adopted
in Oct., by which much disaster might have been prevented.
He was also of opinion that Parliament ought not to have
been allowed to separate without her Majesty's Govern-
ment arming themselves with the power they
now bought
an indemnity for, to prevent the dreadful effects of the
panic then hanging over the country. Of course he (Mr.
Malins) was not as well informed on nnuiercial questions,
in consequence of his professional pursuits, but he warned
the Government in Fob. last of the events which were ap-
proaching, and on the 11th May, when the reserve in the
Bank was reduced to 31 millions, and the rate of discount
Gi per cent., he urged the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer not to allow Parliament to sepa-
rate without arming himself with a remedy to meet the,
threatened evil. He was, however, told that the worst
was over—that all would be right, and' be was advised not
to be at all alarmed on the matter.' In June the discount
also from 3i to 5 millions, so that it would have
cent., and in July to si. The reserve,
ibwneacesrneraeludeed to 6 per
impossible for him, knowing the distaste of the house
to a discussion on such matters, to call attention to the
subject. In Sept. and Oct. symptoms of the disasters
which had since come upon the country made their appear-
ance, and in Nov. the Government was obliged to interpose.