The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-24 00:00:00

THAMES.

ROBBING A SAILOR IN THE STREET.—Margaret Max-
well, a strong and masculine dark woman, who has been
often in custody, and is one of the most desperate of her
class, was brought before Mr. Woolrych, charged with
steaFng a purse containing £4 from the person of Charles
Peterson, a sailor boy about 16 years of age.
The only evidence that could be given by the lad was
that he was in liquor last night, that he was assaulted by
some women and much hurt, and that he was robbed of his
purse containing four sovereigns.

George Winslow, a seaman, stated that he saw t e pri-
soner and two other women pull the last witness out of the
Mercers' Arms public-house, in Shadwell, and treat him
very roughly. One of the women seized him by the throat,
while the prisoner took a purse from his pocket, opened 4,
and said there is £4 in it by -. The woman then ran
away, and went into a house in Mercer-street. He followed
them and called for a police-constable. The prisoner and
her companions afterwards retreated to Elbow-lane, Shad•
well.

David Rowbotham, a police-constable, No. 489 A, said
he took the prisoner into custody ; and after she was locked
up in the King David-lane station-house she called to him
and said, " If you go to No. 2, Elbow-lane, and look up the
chimney of the second-floor, you will find the sailor boy's
purse." He went to the house, a most infamous one, and
found an empty purse in the chimney, which the lad Pater-
son identified as his property.
The prisoner, in defence, said I'll say nothing. I know
I am innocent.

Mr. Woolrych committed the prisoner for trial.
A STREET ROBBERY.—Catherine Collins and Johanna
Heffernan, two notorious Whitechapel thieves, were
brought before Mr. Woolrych, charged with stealing a silk
handkerchief, value 7s. Gd., from the person of Carl Som-
merfelt, a German clerk, dwelling at No. 17, Buckle-street,
Whitechapel.
The prosecutor said he was standing at the corner of
Leman-street, Whitechapel, last night, and, while talking to
a lady -- • • - -`"a
right in front of him. The lady he was talking to called
his attention to his handkerchief being taken out of his
pocket. He turned round, and saw one of the girls hand
his silk handkerchief to the other. He seized them both,
and gave the prisoners into custody. He then identified
a silk handkerchief produced, a common one, and in
answer to a question by the magistrate, said the value of it
was 7s. Gd.

Mr. Woolrych—That is a very high price for a silk
pocket handkerchief.

The prosecutor—l bought it in Berlin.
Police-constable Patrick Welch, 123 11, said he found the
prosecutor's handkerchief upon Hoffman. He took it from
under her dress. She was about to pass it to Collins, when
he took it from her.

The prisoner pleaded guilty, and said, " Pray, settle it
here, sir."

Mr. Woolrych—You are two most impudent thieves. I
sentence you to be imprisoned in the House of Correction
and kept to hard labour for two calendar months.

NEWSVENDERS' BENEVOLENT AND

PROVIDENT INSTITUTION.

The annual meeting of this society was held last
evening at the Freemasons' Tavern, Great Queen-
street; Mr. Terry in the chair, who stated that one
of the objects of the meeting was to elect a pen-
sioner, and another was to elect two trustees in the
room of Mr. Wild, deceased, and Mr. C. Woodward,
resigned. He begged on this occasion to appeal to
the trade generally, and to ask how it happened
that so small a number of those who were engaged
in the trade were subscribers to the society, when
they were entitled to the same benefits for their ss.
per annum as those who paid down three guineas
at one payment. It was extraordinary that so few
of the trade contributed to the society. It was,
after all, a penny a week, or a fraction over. To
the press the society was under the greatest obli-
gations, and from gentlemen unconnected with the
press they had received the most generous support.
The report of the committee was read, which
showed that the subscriptions for the year amounted
to £46 9s. 6d., being an increase on the preceding
year of £7 Os. 6d., the donations during the same
period amounted to £65 9s. 6d. The committee
called attention to the decreased expenditure in-
curred during the last year, so that instead of
being loaded with a debt to the treasurer they
had the pleasure of stating that these was a
balance in hand of £3B 9s. Bd. Since the last meet-
ing of the institution an application had been re-
ceived from Mr. H. Hindley, of Giltspur-street, to
be elected a pensioner. Mr. Hindley had been a
subscriber to the institution since 1839 ; he was
now upwards of 70 years of age. The committee
expressed their deep regret that the funds at their
disposal would not at present admit of their in-
creasing the number of pensioners. The committee
trusted the result of the festival would enable them
to elect a widow of a former liberal contributor to
the pension. During the last year two vacancies
have occurred in the office of trustees, caused by
the death of Mr. Wild and the retirement of Mr.
Woodward, and as their successors they begged to
recommend Mr. Edward Hall, 223, Strand, and
Mr. H. T. Standfast, of Little George-street, West-
minster. In conclusion, the committee could not
but express their regret that comparatively so few
of the members of the trade had enrolled them-
selves as members, when the small subscription of
ss. entitled them to the benefits of the institution.

Mr. BAKER, who moved the adoption of the
report, suggested that much good might be done
by the committee being enlarged and a regular
canvass being undertaken. Efforts should be mado,
not only in London, but in the country also
Mr. WOOD observed that the chief supporters of
thiEi institution were those persons who were in a
position in the world which made them men of
note. Now he objected to the committee putting
forward two members of their own body, and pro-
posed that they should elect two gentlemen whom
he begged to propose—Mr. M'Murray, a great
paper maker and a newspaper proprietor, and Mr.
Mark Lemon ; the latter gentleman especially was
known popularly to the world.
The amendment of Mr. Wood having been
seconded, a long discussion followed, which resulted
in the report being adopted and Messrs. E. Hall
and H. T. Standfast being elected trustees. Mr.
Terry was re-elected treasurer, and the auditors
having been re-elected, the proceedings closed with
a vote of thanks to the chairman.
n the
The festival was held at half-past eight i
evening. In the absence of Charles Dickens, EBCl*,
from an attack of neuralgia, Mr. Wilkie Collins
took the chair. About 160 gentlemen sat down to

very substantial dinner Crr supper, which was pro-
vided with the liberality which characterises the
firm of Elkington and Co.
The CHAIRMAN gave the usual loyal toasts of
"Her Majesty the Queen," "His Royal Highness
the Prince Consort, the Prince of Wales, and the
rest of the Royal Family," and " The Army and
Navy and the Volunteers."
The CHAIRMAN said they had now arrived at the
toast or the evening. He explained that Mr. Dickens
had requested him to preside in his absence, He
had not the vanity to suppose he could represent
adequately the greatest novelist of the day, but he
assured the company that he felt the deepest inte-
rest in the welfare of the society. The hon. gentle-
man proceeded to draw a very graphic description
of the newsvender's boy, who was a personage of
great importance. He might be 4 feet E inches high
—his name might be John, who whistled many
tunes, who jumped over posts, but he was an im-
portant public functionary. At No. 1 he left his
papers for a member of Parliament who anxiously
awaited his arrival; at No. 4 some young ladies
awaited the intelligence proclaiming the namas of
the bridesmaids at some fashionable marriage ; at
No. 40 some anxious artist was watching to see the
paper to know whether his fortune was made by
a kind notice or criticism. The hon. gentleman
proceeded to show the importance of the news-
vender's trade, and concluded by giving "Prospe-
rity to the Newsvenders' Provident Institution."
(Cheers.)
Mr. B. WEBSTER, in eloquent terms, gave " The
Health of the President, Mr. Charles Dickens."
Other toasts followed, and the amount of dona-
tions and subscriptions announced was nearly £lOO.
The musical arrangements were under the direc-
tion of Mr. J. J. Burgess, assisted by Messrs.
George Genge, Edwin Gray, Walton Smith, and
Mr. G. Ford.

Many ladies were present, and the entertainment
gave general satisfoction.
Mr. Spencer was the toastmaster.

ME DUCHIES OF SCHLESWIG AND

HOLSTEIN,

Yesterday morning a blue-book of 162 peges, con-
taining correspondence relative to the affairs of the
Duchies of Schleswig and Holstein, and including
letters from the representatives of Great Britain at
the different German %rid Danish courts, together
with a variety of enclosures throwing light upon
the proceedings both in Denmark and Prussia, and
also in the Germanic Diet, was issued from the par-
liamentary printing-office. The course taken by
our Government in this dispute has been fully ex-
plained by Lord J. Russell in his place in Parlia-
ment, and the publication of many of these documents
iii our columns would afford but little additional
information to the public as regards the main fea-
tures of the English policy.
The following despatch from Lord John Russell
to Lord Cowley, written in February last, will
show the principles by which our Foreign Minister
was guided, and the policy of which he urged the
adoption : _ _

" Foreign-office, Feb. 23.

" My Lord,—The Count de Flahault has asked
me, in the name of his Government, to furnish him
with an outline of the views of her Majesty's Go-
vernment in reference to the affairs of Holstein-
Lauenberg. At the request of the French Ambas-
s'ador, I proceed to communicate to you the general
views of her Majesty's Government on this intri-
cate question. As a broad principle, they consider
that Denmark is in honour bound to redeem the
pledges she gave in 1852. In the present stage of
the negotiation the German confederation requires
that the taxes and the expenditure of Holstein
should be voted by the states of Holstein. Whether
this has always been the rule of the German confe-
deration may well b 2 questioned. The
German states of Austria, for instance, have
never apparently been brought under the
operation of this rule, and other Ger-
man states have complied with it rather in
name than in reality. The principle, however,
appears to her Majesty's Government to be one
which may fairly be applied to all the States of the
Confederation. A representative assembly is, ac-
cording to our ideas, the proper authority for sanc-
tioning a budget of taxes and expenditure, nor in
the opinion of her Majesty's Government would
Denmark have any casus belli against Germany
should the Confederation bring Holstein under the
operation of this rule, even by a federal execution.
But a practical difficulty occurs on the point often
raised, how is Holstein to be charged with the
proper proportion of the general expenses of the
Danish monarchy ? It has been proposed that
the sums necessary for this purpose should be
voted by an assembly in which Denmark, with
1,500,000 population, Holstein, with 500,000,
Schleswig, with 430,000, and Lauenburg with
80,000, should each have an equal number of
members. But this scheme, though it may have a
show of justice, is evidently unfair to the people of
Denmark. Another plan, which was put forward in
Holstein, would give the diets of Holstein, Schles-
wig, and Lauenburg equal power with Denmark to
" pctimatea of t',..
year. But this plan is so cumbrous and uncertain
that, if ever put into operation, it would only serve
to paralyse the Danish menarchy. The principle
put forward by the Danish Government that the
diets of Holstein and Denmark should each contri-
bute a fixed sum for the general expenses of army,
navy, and civil list, leaving the remainder to be
voted according to the discretion of each as-
sembly, seems far more reasonable. It would
be necessary, indeed, to restrict the sum
within narrow limits, perhaps not more
than two-thirds of the amount proposed by Den-
mark ; to have the accounts submitted to the diet
of Holstein as well as to that of Denmark; and
to give equal rights to each assembly to rduse any
sums which might be asked for, exceeding the
stipulated contigent. This is a rough outline of
the terms upon which Germany and Holstein might
agree, if they wished for aureement. Nothing is
here said of Schleswig. The duchy of Schleswig is
a Danish duchy, and although both the honour and
the interest of Denmark require that Schleswig
should be equitably treated, the King of Denmark
could not without danger treat with Germany re-
specting the terms to be given to that duchy, since
this despatch was written, it has been stated that

the states of Holstein have been summoned to
meet on the 6th of March, so that some time for
deliberation will be obtained. Your excellency
may read this despatch to I. Thouvenel, and say
that it has been written in consequence of M. de
Flahault's inquiry.—l am, &c.,
(Signed) " J. RUSSELL."
On the 11th of March Mr. Paget transmitted
from Copenhagen translations of the King's notifi-
cation to the Holstein States, the draft of a provi-
sional arrangement to take effect on the Ist April,
1861, and the draft of a special constitution for
Holstein. " The special constitution for the duchy,"
says Mr. Paget, " appears to be drawn up in entire
accordance with the wishes expressed by the States
of Holstein in their report of March, 1859, and to
give every security to both civil and religious
liberty." With the documents referred to by Mr.
Paget the correspondence closes.

LETTER .FROM THE HON. MRS.

TEL MERTON.

(From the Eastern Counties Herald.)

The following letter has been received by Miss
Johnston from the Hon. Mrs. Yelverton, in reply
to the transmission of £55, as first instalment of
the Yelverton Fund from Cavan :

" My dear Miss Johnston,—lt is almost impossible to
convey to you in a note of thanks all that I have felt
towards you since the occasion of a short meeting at the
Gresham. At that time, the few words you said and your
quiet demeanour contrasted forcibly to my mind with the
excited demonstrations around me, and the subsequent
time has but served to make you stand out in still clearer
relief as one of the foremost of the earnest workers. Your
indefatigable zeal, your constant energy, your determined
courage, and disregard of minor obstacles (whose name I
too well know is legion'), must rank you in my opinion
and estimation as one of the truest friends whom my sor-
rows have raised up for me. I leave it to you to convoy
to all those kind friends who have assisted me the deep
appreciation I feel for this timely help. It has now become
the cause of money versus justice. The appeal to over-
throw the verdict will be heard the latter end of May or
June next. If it be properly met we have very little fear,
but their efforts are now turned to overwhelm me in the ex
pense of a Scottish suit of .the most unheard-of character.
More ' Biddy Coles' have been given their lesson, and no
one knows, save those who have suffered, how much money
it takes to unmask one calumny. In conclusion,
yourself,
to say that I think your efforts have been crowned
unusual success, and the result I must attributelishod
but a
as none else, however willing, has.
sincerely yPours,
comparative success.—Believe ei,,EsRmEsA
YELVERTON."
naleldowwith

Bank, the Ad.
of her Majesty, business binusspineecstison,waosf
HER MAJESTY'S BIRTIJDAY.--This day being the
anniversary of the birth
wholly suspended at the Custom-house,
.the Excise, the
and
10 o'clock,
linty a[rtioaoieut,ysa, dock and
partially
a iGd
itlayb orazids
,et dhoewr
daprnoeashnto-cuoefas.eocsfhe
Post-office.
he
,e
omerset-
the Household Brigade of Infantry took place,
on the Parade, in St. James's-park, by his
Royal Highness
the Duke of Cambridge, Commander-in-Chief.
The directors of the Subma •
/way have undertaken to lay d Submarine Telegraph Com-
pany Beachy Head and Di own immediately the cable
The inquest on the bodyeppe.
who was killed in a prize fight, of the youth Thorpe,
in a verdict of manslaughter ght, near Sheffield, has resulted
laud, ughter ag wet il-
ia antagonist, Nol-

For a

IiVIPERIAL PAtiLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Ihe Lords' amendments to the Neath Water Bill were
considered and agreed to. The following bills were read a
third time and passed :—Cockermouth, Keswick, and Pen-
rith Railway; Dublin and Antrim Junction Railway ;
Henley-in-Arden Railway; London and North Western
Railway (Additional Powers) ; Southampton and Netley
Railway; and West Cheshire Railways (Verbal Amend-
ments to be proposed).

The following bills were considered and ordered for third
reading :—Dartmouth and Torbay Railway, Galashiels and
Peebles Railway, Northampton Water, Ramsey Railway,
Thames Haven Dock (Abandonment), Uxbridge Gas,West
Cornwall Railway, and IVorkington Tidal Basin and
Railway.

The following bills were read a second time :—Grand
Junction Water, Leigh District Gas, North London Rail-
way (Branch to the City), and North Landon Railway
(Widening).

PETITIONS.
Several petitions were presented praying for the adoption
of measures to develope the agricultural and commercial
resources of India, for a mere equitable arrangement with
reference to the exercise of their religious worship by
Roman Catholics in workhouses, and for increased facili-
ties for the religious education of Roman Catholic children,
for an alteration in the mode of levying the income tax, 3:e.
PROVIDENT SOCIETIES.
Mr. SLANEY gave notice that on Tuesday next ha
would move for leave to bring in a bill to amend anti extrntt
the act relating to provident societies.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in the absence of Lord Palmerston
moved that the house would immediately resolve itself
into
committee of supply, and stated that the motion had be-
come necessary in consequence of the house having been
counted out one night preceding the recess.

DOCKYARD MANAGEMENT.

On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,

Sir F. SMITH rose to call the attention of the house to
the report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire
into the control and management of her Ma-
jesty's naval yards, and to move, "that it is expe-
dient that such reforms should he made in the eontrot
and management of her Majesty's naval yards as will tend
to promote greater efficiency, and consequently to insure
greater economy in those establishments." He said the
Commission to which he wished to call attention was com-
posed of very able men; it sat a considerable time; it ex-
amined 72 witnesses, and asked about 11,000 questions ;
and he ventured to assert that not one of those witnesses
said that the management of the dockyards was other than
inefficient; the evidence accumulated proofs of all that was
stated in the report of the Commission. It appeared that
there was no harmony of action between the leading officers
of this department; that the Controller of the Navy could
exercise no effective power, though he had the responsibility;
between him and the storekeeper there was scarcely any
communication that could lead to accuracy of proceeding ;
the accounts were minute, but mystified and irregular, and,
for practical purposes, of little or no value. To show how
true these statements were, and how long the system they
describe had existed, he would quote some of the evidence
given before the Commission ; among others, that of the
right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham).
He stated that so little control was there over the appro-
priation of money, that when he was First Lord of the Ad-
miralty a large building was erected, for which no vote was
passed by the House of Commons, and of which tho
house had no information. Then there was the evi-
dence to the same effect of Sir R. Bromley, the Accountant-
General. There were numerous small items in the ac-
counts, £lOO and £2OO, or £l,OOO and £2,000; there was
abundance of minute detail ; but whether a line-of-battle
ship cost £120,000 or £200,000 the house could not ascer-
tain. With such a system any mercantile firm would be
ruined. In the evidence of the Controller of the Navy
there was also this startling fact, that at various times after
a plan and programme had been drawn up by the Board of
Admiralty and sent down to the dockyards it was discovered
that the materials required were not in store. On several
occasions for the want of seasoned timber work had been
stopped, on others unseasoned timber had been used. This
was a state of things to be deeply regretted and deplored.
He did not know what answer the noble lord the Secretary
of the Admiralty might make to his motion. He might say
that the evidence did not bear out the recommendations of
the Commission ; he might state that another committee was
then sitting upstairs on the Board of Admiralty itself; or
he might say that it was the intention of the Government
to carry out many of the recommendations of the Commis-
sion. This he should be very glad to hear, but as to the
committee upstairs it had not much to do with the question
before the house. If the noble lord disputed the report of
the Commission on the ground that it was not borne out by
the evidence, on teat point he would join issue with the
noble lord. He should be very reluctant to bring forward a
blue-book containing 11,229 questions, or to quote much
from it ; but there were a few answers that he should like
to read to the house. Not many members had time to r6.(1
the whole of the evidence and the report. Probably thenoble
Secretary of the Admiralty had not been able to examine it,
minutely. But, it was a question of such importance to the
country, to the taxpayers, and to the House of Commons,
that it ought to be thorougly sifted and examined—(hear)—
„„."
few minutes, while he brought forward some of the
recommendations of the Commission. One change was re-
commended by the Secretary of the Admiralty himself ; it
was that another Lord of the Admiralty should be ap-
pointed, who should be specially charged with the manage-
ment of the dockyards. It was recommended that the store -
keeper should be placed under the Controller-General.
Perhaps the noble lord would say the Controller would be
sorry to take that charge. He certainly had a good deal
to do already; but by appointing another Lord of the
Admiralty, with the entire charge of the dockyard manage-
ment, that difficulty would be overcome. In a case of so
much importance the house would not begrudge one or two,
additional lords of the Admiralty. It wished the public
money to be well spent, and to know how it was spent.
That was not the case at present. For instance, take the
manner in which contracts were made ; it was done in a
very slovenly manner. There was the case of the Warrior.
She was a vessel of entirely new construction. The draw-
ings were prepared by the Surveyor of the Navy, and sent
to different builders; on those drawings they were to make
tenders. With everything connected with the vessel diffe-
rent to what had been used beforei how long did the house
suppose the builders were allowed to make up their minds
as to the plan and its cost ? A month? No. A week ? No;
just four clear days. That was the time allowed them to
make all their calculations. And the correspondence showed
that alteration after alteration was made in the Warrior,
with increase of cost as the consequence ; all because suffi-
cient time was not allowed at first. It was impossible for
any man iu four or five days, or a week, to make an accu-
rate estimate and tender for such a work ; and surely, be-
fore any tender was accepted by the Admiralty, it had
formed some calculation of its own. In this case the lowest
tender was not accepted because the contractors required 16
or 18 months to complete the ship. The tender at £2 10s.
more per ton was accepted, because the parties who obtained
the contract undertook to build the ship in 11 months. It
was quite clear that this could not be done, for the ship was
to be a model for others ; and the contractors were com-
pelled to take the timber from one particular company.
Then take the case of the gunboats. Of 276 gunboats there
were only 27 that did not require alterations that added to
the cost. (Hear, hear.) He would now read to the house
the first and most stringent paragraph of the report. The
Commissioners regretted to state that, "in their opinion,
the control and management of the dockyards are ineffi-
cient." That inefficiency they attribute to the following
causes—" the constitution of the Board of Admiralty, the
defective organization of the subordinate departments, and
the want of clear and well-defined responsibility." The re-
port also noticed the contradictory orders that were. given
causing delay and prejudice to the public service. It also
stated that the constitution of the Board of Admiralty was
incompatible with effective and economical managemennts
f
the dockyards. Sir B. Walker stated that he had seen
changeo r seven
causingcha nges
differentin the
alr3ryareargesmhene hadts a
übde eanibt:i in
rr
alterations.
otonhesep.
it appeared from the evidence that one member
and two members could alter a contrexplace, board
d
could give an order without the knowledget
wonithttseuurFt
eiraluystthiLtoowrriatdy:
from the board. If these thingst took
shortly... With some of
should be established,and.
ganizeonthseyevseceimmiesroners he could not
time some well or
that a Minister for the Navy De-
partmentha theg
re trusteder ee. recommendations
mhmi eteynwsdoduaugti l'fd:ensbsteesuggested
done
appointed, to be entirely responsible for
management of the dockyards; that the
be looked on as large manufacturing estab-
Ming an
re
airing her Majesty's ships ;
it sh he dockyards
meoenn tt
Brido fslsi
ohn
bu
should
should
fo r thed Nr ea
v y Department should have
of
appointing the Co
ler' should select the superintendents of the dif-
ferentntroller-G Controller-General, and that
ttthj
iheea tCptoohdvineotecrrok yards. This suggestion, if adopted, would be
likely to saddle the country with an unnecessary number of
officers. The report stated that "the system of accounts
was elaborate and minute, but as far as we can judge its re-
sults are not to be relied on for any practical purpose." The
Accountant-General, Sir R. Bromley, in his evidence said,
if he had been permitted, he could have put the accounts
en a better system, but for that purpose he must have a
greater number of clerks. But how many had he already ?
No less than 177. He did not see how he could manage that
number ; it was their number made the difficulty; he believed
if the 100 were struck off, and only the 77 retained, the
work would be better done. In the different departments
there was a whole army of clerks; if the clerks in the
Admiralty and the War-office alone were armed with rifles,
and sent to the outskirts of London, they would form a
small army. There were 600 of them. It appeared that the
audit at present instituted was of an imperfect kind, being
an internal audit only, whereas to be really effective it
ought to be an external audit also. The opinion had been
repeatedly expressed that large retrenchments might be
effected in the present dockyard expenditure. He hoped his
noble friend (Lord C. Paget) would be able to state how
these improvements could be accomplished, and bow thiss
eQQIa9I3IY gaiglat In effected, What the country wanted w

an efficient navy at the least possible expense, but this they
could not be said to have at present. The inquiry recently
made showed the system to be defective in many points.
One defect seemed to him to be that the experienced men at
the head of the building department in our dockyards were
not now called upon to make drawings and plans for the
ships which they constructed, although they were quite
competent to do so. These drawings and plans were now
made by one man or in one central department; but if the
dockyard builders were allowed to snake them, it would, he
thought, produce among them a spirit of emulation and of
rivalry which would lead to ships being not only well built,
but economically built, and would altogether be productive
of the best results. The hon. and gallant officer proceeded
to quote from the evidence gives before the Royal Com-
missioners by Sir. J. Graham, Sir B. Walker, 'and Sir R.
Bromley, with a view to show the necessity of some more
complete check upon the appropriation of the money voted
by Parliament and the want of proper means for ascertain.
ing the cost of vessels built in the dockyards. He thought
with Sir R. Bromley that in the case of every ship there
should be a capital account and a current account, so that
the cost of building and of keeping her afloat could be at
onee seen. With regard to the misappropriation of public
money, the right honourable baronet had referred to an ex-
tensive building which had been erected out of funds voted
by ,this house for some other purpose, and which had been
built without the permission, and even without the '
knowledge of Parliament ; while to show the want of proper
communication between the departments, Sir B. Walker
said he had learned some facts which ought to have been
brought to his, knowledge by first reading them in the news-
papers. Another point on which Sir B. Walker had insisted
very strongly was the want of the necessary control over the
dockyards. Four of the builders were asked by the cc ra-
missioners whether when they were shown the drawings by
the Controller of the Navy they were at liberty to make any
suggestions, and they all answered that they did not think
they were. This ought not t.) be the case. There could be
no harm in taking the opinions of these able officers. The
Controller of the Navy ought not to have thrown upon him
the invidious duty of opening all the tenders and of advis-
ing the Board on his own personal responsibility which
should be accepted. It was said that the Warrior was not
built on the lowest tender, and the house ought to know
why. The reason alleged was that the parties whose tender
was accepted offered to complete her in 11 months, whereas
those whose tender was the lowest stipulated for 16 or 18
months. Time, however, was such an important element in
all these calculations that the Admiralty ought to have
specified the time which they would allow. The want of
such a guide placed the parties on an unequal footing. The
hon. and gallant member concluded by moving—" That
it is expedient that such reforms should be made in
the control and management of her Majesty's naval yards
as will tend to promote greater efficiency, and consequently
to insure greater economy in those establishments."
_ .

Mr. LINDSAY seconded the motion.
Admiral SEYMOUR said the great difficulty of this
question was to decide the particular reform which should
be adopted. The question had been much discussed for
many years past, and had been considered by various com-
missions and committees, but no proper system of dockyard
accounts had 3et been adopted. (Hear.) He had no doubt,
however, that the Accountant-General, with the advantage
of the able report just made, would be able to introduce
very efficient reforms, but having been himself at the head
of two dockyards he knew the difficulty of the subject, and
great caution ought to be exercised in entering on a system
of account which, while it added greatly to the cost of the
establishment, might not furnish the information which
was required. In 1853 a new system of manufacturing ac •
count-keeping was introduced, but, as it seemed to have no
reference to the annual audit, he never could see the advan-
tage of it. As for naval expenditure, that was a matter
which we could not run away from. There had been nu-
merous instances of important aid in building ships being
afforded by private yards, and as an Englishman he was
proud that the country possessed firms which could assist
the Government in cases of emergency. The mode of keep-
ing accounts in France was inquired into about the year
1851, and in consequence of those inquiries a better system
was substituted. As to the estimate for ships to be built, he
thought the best groundwork was to be found in the actual
cost of ships already built. Although they might lay down
ships of the same class and the same character in the same
yard, there must be a difference in their cost, on account of
the difference in the cost of material and labour. The War-
rior was a great and new experiment, and he was
not able to express any opinion as to the cost,
but he hoped accurate accounts would be kept of the
cost of the iron ships built at Chatham. (Hear, hear.) He
thought the Accountant-General was perfectly competent
to determine what :accounts should be furnished, and he
could not conceive it necessary to go into details to the ex-
tent of returning to the Admiralty lists of the innumerable
articles which were kept in store, some costing pence and
some pounds. (Hear, hear.) He concurred in the impor-
tance of keeping full and clear accounts, but he was not
prepared to say that minute details could be easily obtained.
Lord C. PAGET.—I am very much obliged to my hon.
fritnd the member for Chatham for bringing the important
subject of the control and management of her Majesty's
dockyard under the not'ce of the house, But he has not
quite done justice to me in assuming that I am opposed to
the report of the Royal Commission. I have made no re-
mark with regard to that report, beyond expressing my ap-
proval of it •
which members might more easily refer to the evidence
upon which the recommendations of the report are founded,
have been omitted.
Sir F. SMITH said he had made no comments on the

subject.
Lord C. PAGET.—The hon. gentleman, I thought,
rather assumed that I was opposed to that report.
Sir F. SMITH.—No.
Lord C. PAGET.—AII I can say is that, so far from it,
the Admiralty are extremely obliged to the commissioners
for their valuable and able report, and for the careful con-
sideration which they have given to this important subject.
(Hear.) The report contains, in the first place, very import-
ant recommendations as to the constitution of the Admiralty.
It is obvious, however, that, as the subject is now under the
consideration of a committee composed of the most able
members of the house, it would not be advisable for the
Admiralty at this moment to make any changes in the con-
stitution of the department as regards the control and man-
agement of the dockyards, even if they deemed any neces-
sary. (Hear.) I come now to the recommendations of the
commission, which it is in the power of the Admiralty to
give effect to at once. Although they occupy a good deal of
space in the report, they are really very few in number.
First of all, there is the important question of accounts.
There is no doubt that the accounts of the ship-building
departments have not been kept in a satisfactory manner;
but, in justice to the officers of those departments, I am
bound to say that I do not think the commissioners for a
moment entertained the idea that there had been any mal-
practices in regard to pecuniary matters. (Hear.) The
object of the commissioners was to point out the necessity
of keeping the accounts in such a form that the Admiralty
and the House of Commons should know what each ship
in the navy costs the country. , There are undoubtedly
great difficulties in doing so. If we turn to the French
accounts we find that they are complicated by excessive
minuteness of detail, and that they are attended with the
further drawback that they cannot be produced till two
years after the transactions to which they refer. What the
commissioners desire is that the Admiralty should be en-
abled annually, as soon after the close of the financial year
as possible, to present to the house an account of the cost of
every ship in her Majesty's dockyards during the past year.
With the view of Carrying out the proposal of the commis-
sioners the Accountant-General, who well deserves the en-
comiums which my hon. and gallant friends the members
for Chatham and Devonport have passed upon him, has, at
the desire of the Board of Admiralty, prepared a form of
accounts by double entry, and devised a scheme by which
all the bookkeeping and accounts of the shipbuilding de-
partments shall be entirely committed to the charge of one
officer and an assistant at Somerset-house. These accounts
will thus bo brought into one focus at the Admiralty, and
the cost of every ship ,readily and accurately ascertained.
This proposal, which I ara happy to say involves not much
expense, has been submitted by the Admiralty to the
Treasury. I have little doubt that the Treasury will
agree to it, and that within a few days this great reform
,
will be commenced. (Hear, hear.) My hon, and gallant
friend is in error in stating that the responsibility of
inviting parties ti make tenders for Admiralty contracts,
and of deciding what tender shall be accepted, rests upon
the Controller. The fact is, that the Con troller only
submits a list of names to the Board, from which theyselect
those who are to be invited to compete, according to their
.
own judgment ; and when the tenders are sent it is for
the Board, and not the Controller, to decide which shall be
accepted. I admit that there is much difficulty connected
with the time contracts to which my hon. and gallant friend
referred. In the case of the Warrior there were other ten-
ders which were less than that which was accepted ; but the
contractors who got the order for the vessel undertook to
build it within a shorter period than any of the others. I
can quite understand that the Board of Admiralty, under
the urgent circumstances of the case, should deem it advis-
able to accept a tender rather higher than some of the others,
in order to get the vessel as soon as possible. It has not
been completed within the specified time, but it is certainly
not the fault of the late Board, nor of any department of the
Admiralty, that the contract has not been fulfilled. The case
of the Warrior is a very peculiar one. It is a vessel on an
entirely novel plan, and itsconstruction has necessarily
been attended with many difficulties. My hon. and gallant
friend has said with a great degree of truth that every consi-
deration should be given to all the details of such a vessel be..
fire its commencement; but it is almost impossible, in deal-
ing with a new class of vessels, where we have had no expe-
rience to guide us, to avoid changes in the original plan. As
I stated on a former occasion, certain necessary alterations
were ordered by the Admiralty in the Warrior, as to ports
and other details ; and, while I cannot hold the contractors
blameless, I must admit that there were reasons for the de-
lay which has taken place in the construction of the vessel.
It is quite true, as my hon. and gallant friend has said, that
HOMO of the dockyard officers, in their evidence before the
commission, unite in stating generally that any proposals
which they have submitted to the Admiralty for improve-
ments in shipbuilding have not been encouraged. I believe
that the Admiralty would be wise to call together the master
shipwrights and other officers of the dockyards, and gather