The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-06 00:00:00

Ryland, as regarded the office of Clerk in Council.

There

were good reasons for his not being appointed to that
office, because he was at the time a veey strong political

partisan, and, consequently, not fitted under the circum-
stances for that situation. He was then. offered the office
which he accepted as a speculation, and if it did not turn
out as profitable as he expected the Government was not to
blame. It was true that Mr. Ryland made a protest at the
time which Lord Sydenham was prevented from noticing by
his sudden illness. Besides it was the opinion of three
Secretaries of State that the subject was not one for the
consideration of the imperial but the colonial Government.
The house then divided, and there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 235
Majority against the motion —2ls
RAILWAY COMPANIES' ARBITRATION.

Col. W. PATTEN moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable railway companies to settle their differences with
other companies by arbitration.
Leave was given to brill.- in the bill.
COUNTY COURT COMMITMENTS.

Mr.-COLLIER moved for leave to bring in a bill to
limit the power of imprisonment for small debts exercised
by the county court Judges. The county courts, he said,
had exercised their jurisdiction with great satisfaction to
the country, and only one point remained upon which there
was any dissatisfaction. That point was the power of im-
prisonment. In the superior courts, imprisonment operated
as a discharge from debt, but with county courts it was
otherwise, for the judges of these courts had the power of
imprisoning as a punishment, while imprisonment did not
operate as a discharge of the debt in respect of which it was
incurred. He believed that Parliament intended that the
power of imprisonment should be exercised in cases of fraud
only. This, he conceived, was evident from the language
of the act itself. Some of the county court judges, how-
ever, had construed the act so as to :enable them to com-
mit the defendant merely for non-appearance. The conse-
quence was that a number of poor persons had been sent to
prison who had not been guilty of any fraud, without con-
tempt, and in some cases without injury, for various
periods not exceeding 40 days. This was unquestionably
a great hardship, which Parliament certainly never in-
tended. In the year 1858, the number of commitments for
non-appearance alone, without any cases of fraud, amounted
to no fewer than 8,361. (Hear.) The Lord Chief Baron in
a charge to the grand jury of Bedford, had called attention
to this subject, and to the expenses which such commit-
ments entailed upon the county; and in the same charge
the learned judge mentioned that in one case the defendant
had been committed eight times for a single debt, and five
times for another for periods of 30 days each, for non-ap-
pearance. (Hear.) The imprisonment lasted, therefore,
several months. The debt was only £2 15s. in the first
instance, so that, as the cost of maintaining the
defendant was 10s. 6d. per week, it would have been cheaper
for the county to pay the debt at once. In 1857, one judge
committed no fewer than 546 persons, and another 749
while it was nnderstood that the number of commitments
this year would show an increase over those of 1858 of
about 2,000. (Hear.) By the bill which he (Mr. Collier)
had prepared, he proposed thatno county court judge should
be empowered to imprison a debtor merely for non-appear-
ance or without being satisfied that he had contracted the
debt fraud, or, which was nearly the same thing, that
he had the means of payment, but withheld payment. He
proposed that no man should be imprisoned upon the same
judgment for a longer period than twice 40 days. (An
hon. member—'• That is too long.") Well, he merely pro-
posed that time, leaving the ultimate decision to thejudg-
ment of the committee of the house. By such enactments
he believed the efficiency of the county courts would be ma-
terially increased, and many hardships prevented. The
hon. and learned member concluded by moying for leave to
bring in the bill.
Mr. MALINS seconded the motion, and said'it was one
of the misfortunes of this branch of the law, that it was
not administered in the face of a learned and vigilant bar.
He could not have supposed, if he had not heard it said in
that house, that the power of imprisonment had been so
largely exercised. Those abuses ought to be totally abo-
lished, and their repetition watchfully guarded against.
The abolition of the power of imprisonment for debt on
mesne process had been attended with great benefit, and he
conceived it might be abolished in all cases, even in cases
of execution, except upon special application to a judge, and
upon special grounds. He should propose in committee
that imprisonment for non-payment should be limited to
much less than 40 days. •
Capt. STEWART mentioned several cases of hardship
upon individuals, particularly females, which had been
caused by the power of commitment, and stated that it bad
the.effect of materially adding to the burden of the county
rates.

Mr. COCHRANE said that in many of these cases per-
sons were committed for contempt of court, and anything
was construed into contempt of court ; and he must say, of
all tyrannies, a legal tyranny was the worst. (Hear.) He
cordially supported the bill.
Mr. HENLEY thanked the hon. member for bringing
this subject before the house. He understood debtors were'
treated as criminals. That should be attended to. Then
these parties were considered as fraudulent debtors ; but
when they considered the number of minutes eachcase took
to dispose of, they might imagine'the degree of inquirythat
took place previous to committal.
Mr. CLIVE said it did not seem probable there was in
this house that experience of the nature of these tribunals
which there was elsewhere. His own practice, and that of
most county court judges, was not so reckless as had been
supposed. The cause was first tried, and in nine cases out
of ten the debt was admitted and the debtor generally
named his own tiro for payment, If he did not pay, a judg-
ment summons was issued ; and if the debtor did not ap-
pear, it was generallybecause he did not wish to be examined
as to his means. The judge then inquired of the creditor as
to his probable means, and decided upon that evidence. If
that was objected to, and if the creditor was to be deprived
of the power of enforcing payment of his debt, then the
house might say so, and abolish compulsory means of en-
forcing payment of debts altogether.
After a few observations from Mr. BRISCOE and Mr.
COLLIER,
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
Captain LEICESTER VERNON rose to move that this
house do resolve itself into a committee to consider of an
humble address to be presented to her Majesty, praying
that she will be graciously pleased to give directions
that the benefits conferred by the Royal warrant of the 17th
day of December, 1855, upon regimental quartermasters re-
tiring subsequent to the date of the declaration of war
with Russia be extended, so far only as the honorary rank
of captain is concerned, to those regimental quartermasters
who completed the period of service specified in the
warrant, but who had retired previous to that date.
That motion referred only to 39 soldiers of a great age, all
of whom had served with great honour in the Britisharmy.
Since that motion had been placed on the paper, the autho-
rities had taken their case into consideration, and had pro-
moted these soldiers, for which he begged leave to return
their grateful thanks. He therefore withdrew his motion.
The SPEAKER said it was contrary to the rules of the
house to speak and conclude with no motion.
VOLUNTEER CORPS.

Mr. PALK moved—" That this house shall, upon Tues-
day next, resolve itself into a committee to consider of an
humble address to her Majesty, praying that she would be
graciously pleased to give directions that the necessary
arms, accoutrements, and ammunition be furnished to
volunteer rifle corps under the provisions of the Act 44
Geo. III„ c. 54, as well as to artillery corps in maritime
towns, and to assure her Majesty that this house would
make gsod the same." -The circular of the present Go-
vernment had been received with disapprobation by the
country ; but that of the late Government had been well
received, because it recognised the right of all persons to
arm for the defence of their country. That was a right
essential to be preserved." France was increasing her navy
and fortifying her shores, England alone, of all Euro-
pean countries, was quiescent; Russia, was most active ix
arming. The introduction of steam enabled our shores to
be attacked by any foe menacing our shores. The port of
Dartmouth could not be assaulted by sailing vessels, but
lately a French steamer had been known to leave the
coast of France and anchor in that harbour in the middle,
of the night, and French vessels had been seen taking
soundings there. Dartmoath was peculiarly susceptible
of defence, for if batteries were erected they might be
left to volunteers until they could be aided by regular
troops. The plan of the Government was not satis-
factory. It was proposed to give twenty-five rifles to every
hundred men, under certain conditions. He should be
glad to know whether these were all the arms they were
to receive, and whether the rest was to be found by the men,
He was informed that the Government contracts for the
manufacture of arms would prevent private purcthgrees,lsr.tenrde
therefore, unless additional facilities were given,
with the means of defence. There was alsot
no means by which the public could providetheaersdeoluvbest
wsheirChesetawthe
shouldwhetherei t
arranged wasintended
companies
n Governmenties orin regiments. thSer v olHu net eheards
ro
headceivtaeldeanlemttuerchfroher
movement,
such rapid progress being made in formation
that uncertainty on the points to which_ h. e
thehad_ referred
from
interest an
officerin i thisn
preventedof these corps as would otherwise be the case. He thought
these facts opened a very large question. It was a question
for the house and the Govertment to decide, whether they
were 0-oing to accept the services of all who might offer
themselves, and form them into regiments of volunteers.
If they did that, even to supply every 100 with 25 rifles,
would entail a great expence upon the country. But if, on
the other hand, the volunteers were formed simply
into conapanies, who would be accessories to the regular
defences of the 'country in case of need, he thought
they would come to the proper ci,nclusion. Such
companies formed in rural districts could' act together
promptly—(hear, hear)—whereas, if formed into regiments
they would be called off to practice at great distances.
These were questions of great interest to the country.
Under any circumstances the country had a right to de-
mand from the Government that our coasts should be fully
defended against the possibility of an invasion. There were
hon. members in the house who ridiculed the idea of inva-
sion, and an hon. and gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier) was
often twitted for so constantly bringing the question be-
fore them, but he (Mr. Palk) must say that there were I
grave grounds fur carefullyconsidering the question. When
he saw on the throne of France a ruler, who though he
had kept faith with us, had broken it to his own subjects—
when he remembered the language of the French colonels
towards this country not many months ago, and which
raised such a storm of anger and discontent among all
classes—when he recollected the attention that the im-
mense preparations made by the Emperor for the present
war were met ely to replan the losses caused by the war in
the Crimea—recollecting all these and other facts, while he
was not desirous of expressing any undue mistrust in a
ruler whom he preferred to judge by his acts rather than
his words, he must say that he should feel much more con-
fidence if the people of this country were properly drilled
and disciplined to meet any contingency, and the vulner-
able parts of our coast put in a better state of defence than
at present, and with these views he begged to move the
resolution he had placed on the paper. (Rear, hear.)
Captain JERVIS seconded the motion.
Mr. H. BERKELEY said he felt indebted to his hon,

friend opposite for bringing forward this question. It

was one which deservedd-the- consideration of the house

and the Government, and was of vast consideration to the
country. There could be no doubt that Englishmen
were less prepared to resist an attack than the people
of any other country in the civilised world. The
question simply amounted to this —in the case of
invasion, discipline would enable them to repel it—
without discipline they would become but a fright-
ened rabble —( hear, hear) -- disciplirke and courage
were in such cases convertible terms. It appeared to him
that both the late and the present Government were wrong
upon this question, and that, in fact, all recent Governments
had done all in their power to prevent the enrolling of vo-
lunteers. But now that this reluctance had been at least

partially overcome, it was important to see that proper steps
were taken to organise the volunteer corps in the most

effective manner.- If the Government did not supply.both
arms and clothing, he hoped that, while they gave every
encouragement to the formation of volunteer corps among
•

the middle classes, they would, at the same time, insist

upon proper practising grounds being provided. He had a
letter from a gentleman who, while walking with two ladies,
heard something whistle past him, for which he could not
account. One of the ladies said, "It is too early for cock-
chafers"—(a laugh)—and immediately after another went '
past, and into a wall, whereupon the gentleman, with his
knife, extracted it, and found it was a minie bullet. This
was a matter which called for great care and precaution
He would add one more suggestion, and that was, that the
yeomanry, who were a body of volunteers, might be made
much more effective if they were drilled ike the Cape of
Good Hope volunteers, to artillery and coast as well as ca-
valry exercise. Having the means of rapid movements at
their command, they could arrive where their services
might be needed sooner than other bodies not so placed.
He would train them to the use of the rifle as well as the
sword. (Hear, hear.)
Col. DICKSON thought it was a matter of great import-
ance that artillery corps should at once be established in
the maritime towns on the coast.
Lord H. VANE said there could be no doubt that their
shores were very inadequately defended ; but it did not fol-
low that volunteer rifle corps were the best to do so. He was
convinced that these sorps would not be organised in so
efficient a manner as to render other forces unnecessary.
He believed that in the maritime towns a maritime artil-
lery was absolutely necessary, for certainly in that which
he had the honour to represent there were no defences
whatever. Means should be taken to bring large forces at
the shortest notice upon any given point where an emer-
gency arose ; and such men would be much more efficient
than any rifle corps that could be established. He did not
believe the Government would be able to get at that time
a sufficient number of rifles to satisfy all the demands made
upon them by the various volunteer corps, and they ought,
therefore, to take the number offered by the Government,
which in his opinion would serve for the ordinary purposes
of drill. The whole question, he repeated ought to be care-
fully considered by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary
at War before any decision was come to on the subject.
Mr. E. DUNCOMBE was of opinion that, in addition
to their army and the aid given by volunteer corps, their
main reliance should be in the great efficiency of their navy.
Mr. BRISCOE thought the great difficulty arose from
the circumstance that neither the late or present Govern-
ment had made up their minds as to whether the proposed
force of rifle corps should assume a permanent character,
or be used for a temporary purpose. For his own part he
did not think the Emperor of the French meditated an in-
vasion of this country, and he had therefore heard with
great pain the reffections lately made upon a friendly Power
He had behaved towards England with perfect fairness and
honour, and certainly the animadversions and abuse poured
upon him by the press of this 'country were totally uncalled
for.

General PEEL said that having been appealed to by the
hell. gentleman, he might state the views of the late Go-
vernment. The • circular issued by them did not arise
from any fear on their part. Numerous and urgent appli-
cations were, however, made to them for permission to
form rifle corps, on the express understanding that
they were to be of no expense to the country. (Cheers.)
The first application was from Bristol, and no sooner
was that granted, and the Government circular issued, than
numerous applications were made to them to supply rifles.
Those applications were refused on two grounds ; in the first
place, because there were not rifles enough in store to justify
the Government in spreading them all over the country.
The number of rifles then in store was 170,000, out of which
the disembodied militia were to be furnished. The late Go-
vernment made contracts for the supply of every rifle that
could be produced in this country for the next two years.
They then turned to Belgium, but before entering into con-
tracts with the manufacturers of that country they appiied to
the Belgian Government to know whether their contracts
with Belgian manufacturers were likely to be interfered with,
and whether there was any probability that the rifles would
not be supplied. The Belgian Government replied thatthere
was no probability of such an event, and contracts were then
made with Belgian manufacturers. Contracts were now
made for every arm that could be supplied in this country. and
the weekly supply had been increased from 1,000 to 1,500,
and yet after supplying the whole of the regular army and
militia there would only be 300,000 rifles in store wherewith
to supply the volunteers if the Government should determine
to arm them. He quite agreed with the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. S. Herbert) that if the Government gave the vo-
lunteer rifle corps 25 per cent. of rifles for drill and practice
it would be quite sufficient. (Hear, hear.) The companies
would only have one musketry instructor at a time, and 25
per cent. would be quite enough for rifle practice. There
was a great deal for riflemen to learn. Unless, for example,
they learnt the bugle sounds and were acquainted with all
the drill and practice of riflemen, they would be found per-
fectly useless as soldiers. He hoped his right hon. friend
(Mr. Sidney Herbert) would adhere to his determination
thal the volunteers should be raised in companies instead
of larger bodies, for they would not then require the de-
gree of drill which would. otherwise be necessary, and
such a plan would be much more advantageous. If the
.• rifle corps were ever called out, it had been the inten-
, lion of the late Government to supply them with
everything needful. Meanwhile, however, it should, as
far as possible, be a voluntary movemeßt. Those who pro-
vided themselves with arms and accoutrement were not
likely to join the militia or the regular forces, and it was
very important that the recruiting for those services should
not be interfered with. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle-
man had represented the number of troops in this country
as much smaller than was actually the case. The number
of troops of one kind or another now in this country, in-
cluding militia. was about 110,000; there was also a larger
force of artillery than at any other time, and he believed
it was in a most efficient state. (Hear, hear.) It was most
I important to encourage the proposed volunteer artillery
corps. We had 3,600 guns in position, requiring 10 men
to work each gun, or 36,000. This being so, it was useless
to talk about putting up more fortifications, for they re-
quired garrisons and troops which we had not got. (Hear.)
The most efficient means of protecting- our coast was per-
haps by moveable batteries, of which 15 were already com-
pleipe, and 10 more ordered, so that here would be 150
moveable guns which might be placed on any part of the
coast, and when we had got these batteries composed of
Armstrong guns. they would form the best possible defence
which the country could have. Every effort should be used
to induce the inhabitants of seaport towns to join these ar-
tillery corps ; they should be supplied with ammunition
and guns, and it might be even expedient to pay them for
their services when engaged. If, however, these rifle volun-
teers generally were supplied with arms and ammunition,
many would come forward and join them who would fire
away a great deal of powder, and then perhaps retire from
the corps altogether, for the Government, it should be re-
collected, had no hold upon them whatever. With regard
. to our coast defences, there were now in course of construc-
tion fortifications which would cost £2,000,000, and, includ-
ing those that were contemplated, £4,000,000 would be
spent in this way. Now, he thought, on bringing in the
estimates, that the house would do well to consider whether
these were necessary or not. If they were, it was not right
to vote the money in driblets, and to wait for their com-
pletion at their present slow rate of progress. Not that he
feared invasion, and he believed nothing had ever fallen
from him implying that he had any such dread • but at the
same time they ought always to be prepared. ellear.) At
the present moment he thought it hardly possible to aecide
what fortifications were necessary until the effect of
and rifled
guns upon masonry had been fully ascertained,i
belief was that fortifications were now being built which
! might prove of very little service. As far as receptssupon
experi-
ments had gone, the effect of rifled guns was le
earthworks than upon masonry. It was obvious also that
f 4,
fortifications constructed to meet a rang
. would be almost useless against more
Poe rwt fi; r fe
ua
tl o noooa tines
yards•
wererY
It was proper, therefore, to decide what fo
necessary, and then to complete them as soon.ghats possible.made
• He believed that these volunteer rifle corps nn
of the greatest possible service. If, however, the Govern-
. ment interfered too much, they would probably defeat their
own object. The various corps should be left to appoint
their own hours of drill, and to lay down their own rules as
far as possible ; Government interference would be likely to
disgust them, and they would much prefer to be left to
themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ELCHO thought nothing less became a great
country like this than., to be in this chronic panic. He
did not stand up to defend the language used towards a
neighbouring potentate either by the press or others, but
he heard in another place that night language used by
Lord Lyndhurst, in making a speech on the national de-
fences—(‘! Order," from the Speaker)—he heard Lord
Lyndhurst stating reasons why there should be additional
defences in this country. He (Lord Elcho) did think we
should have some permanent means of defence. He
thanked the hon. gentleman for endeavouring to encourage
thoSe volunteer corps. Some hon. gentlemen said they
would be of no use—some even said that they would be
only "in the way." Without the presumption of putting
his own opinion against high military authorities, he
thought the upper, the middle, and the intelligent portion
of the artisans would form a large and effective force, but
now, for want of training, they would, in the effent of an
invasion, be no better than so many old women. How many
even of the members of that house had been trained to the
use of arms ? Yet they were able-bodied men, at least their
constituents thought them so, or they would not expect
them to discharge their duties in the present state of the
Thames. (Hear, hear.) [The stench from the Thames at
this moment was scarcely tolerable.] How many of them,
except those who had been trained to arms, would be of the
slightest use in case of an invasion ? All that was now
proposed was, that the classes he had referred to should re-
ceive such an amount of training and organisation, that in
the course of a fortnight or three weeks, they would be able
to work together. Ho calculated that the population of
London alone would furnish 200,000 volunteers. The his-
tory of the Tyrol, La Vendee, Switzerland, and Garibaldi's
corps furnished proofs of what could be done in a few weeks
by means of such a corps. Those men who joined Gari-
balbi learned their drill in a few weeks, because they be-
longed to the intelligent classes. If we organised corps from
the intelligent classes, there would be no more of these peri-
odical panics. (Hear.) He thought the present Gbvern-
ment had exercised a wise discretion in offering the volun-
teer corps the proportion of arms which had been stated.
Col. DUNNE said the country should place no depen-
dence on volunteer corps. After all that had been said about
them 5,000 had not been raised yet. The only use he could
see in them was to excite a military spirit which might in-
duce men to enlist for regular warfare, but they never could
be of any real use unless they submitted thorns -yes to mili-
tary discipline. (Hear, hear.) But had they got 5,000
men now who had consented to do so ? He thought we
should have 150,000 men under arms for the defence of the
country, but we should not rely on those who took up arms
merely as an amusement. (Hear.)
Sir J. V. SHELLEY was afraid that the observations
of the hon. and gallant gentleman might have the effect
of throwing cold water on the movement. He, however,
had not a vast respect for those high military authorities
who preferred "Brown Bess" to the Minie rifle. (Lang -
ter.) He approved of the proposition of the Government
to furnish arms to 25 per cent. of the corps, for the same
quantity of arms would be sufficient to instruct, alternately,
the whole number. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE said he never intended to throw cold

water on the movement, he only wished to put the subject
in its proper light.
Mr. S. HERBERT—I think the discussion which has
taken place has been a very useful one. There is great
diversity of opinion upon matters of detail, but at any rate
by discussion we come at last to know what it is we want.
I have been asked whether or not the Government ever con-