The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-13 00:00:00

STATE OF INDIA.

Mr. LAYARD said that, as the Secretary for India
was not present, he would not propose the following
question of which he had given notice, " whether, notwith-
standing the minute of the Lieutenant Governor of Bengal
upon the Report of the Indigo Commission, dated 17th
December last, a bill had been introduced into the
Legislative Council of India to enforce contracts for
the delivery of agricultural produce; and, if so,
whether such measure had been introduced with the sanc-
tion of the Government of India : And, whether he would
lay upon the table of the house copies of that report and
minute, and of the Act XI. of 1860 of the Indian Legisla-
ture, together with the correspondence thereon between the
Governor. General of Ind ia, the Lieutenant- Governor of Ben-
gal, the Indigo Planters' Association, and other documents
and papers relating to the cultivation of indigo in Bengal."
This subject was one of the greatest importance, and he
trusted his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for India
would shortly be in his place to answer his question. The
statement which he (Mr. Layard) had to make on
this question would be such as was scarcely
ever paralleled in the annals of this house,
and exhibited the conduct of the Europeans in India
the worst character, and the sufferings of the natives'in
thl7e onta toost harrowing light. If he was not placed in a posi-
tion
Abkrhit this subject on before Friday next he would
sr_ bis question on the motion for adjournment.
i..,7.0n alttd_bjeect afforded ICINNAIRD expressed a hope that an early oppor-
tunityg
s
his hon. friend (Mr. Layard) to
forward.Eb tsoN
MONUMENT—TRAFALGAR-

A d miral WALe OTT SerledAßatEtention to the incomplete
state .ef the Nelson rtion-
ent in Trafalgar-square, the
vote to. complete the sameutilion of •
10,58. Navin;la
been granted in the ses-
Mr. CO W}'ER admitted that ti,ere was great delay in
completing Me monument in
aueati—
delay in reference ; 14" the
re might be
something worse than.
faigar_square. (L aughter.) The Bonai°F the monument
to works in Tra-
were entrusted for d, 9sign to that eminentartist Sir Edwin
Landseer.
THE DUCHIES OF SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN.
Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the Secretary of State for Fo-
reign Affairs whether h tie had any obj eetion to lay on the table
of the house the corre epondence with the Governments of
Prussia and of Dem rtark, relative to the affairs of the
duchies of Schleswig f II Id of Holstein ? The hon. member
expresocd his approval" rof the manner in which the noble

lord (Lord J. Russell) discharged the duties of his difficult
position, but at the same time he considered that it was
most desirable the house should be put in possession of the
foreign policy the Government proposes to pursue. He
then entered into a narrative relating to the hostilities be-
tween the States and Denmark.

Sir H. VERNEY brought forward a motion of a similar
character, and expressed a hope that her Majesty's Go-
vernment would endeavour to mediate so as to arrange the
difference between the States.
THE TAEPINGS AND THE ENGLISH
MISSIONARIES. _ _

Col. SYKES asked whether a series of 13 papers, begin-
ningwith consularnotiflcations dated the 18th and 29th Dec.
1860, and the 2d of Jan., 1861, comprising narratives of
missionary visits
,to Soochou and Nankin in 1860, letters
and other documents, and ending with an edict for the tole-
ration of Christianity by the Taeping king, dated 29th Dec.,
1860, papers which had been already published in the North
China Herald, the official organ of her Majesty's Legation at
Shanghai, had been transmitted to the Foreign-office by her
Majesty's Legation at Shanghai ; also whether Consul Mea-
dows had resigned his office, and if so, on what grounds ?
Lord J. RUSSELL having described the different dis-
putes that had arisen in the States in question since the
armed intervention of Austria and Prussia, said that various
propositions were made between these States which were
not mutually satisfactory. Last year the Danish Govern-
ment applied to this country, and submitted a proposition
to their consideration--certain propositions which her
Majesty's Government did not consider would receive the
the approval of the German Confederation, and they com-
municated their views to the Danish Government. The
French Government applied to the English Government
for any correspondence which had taken place in re-
ference to these disputes, which was instantly supplied, 1
and M. Thouvenel stated that on the part of
France he had adopted a course similar to that
pursued by her Majesty's Government. He believed
that the Governments of France, Russia, and Sweden
were ready to unite with the Government of this country
in endeavouring to arrange these differences, but consider-
able difficulties existed in effecting that object. In
Isupport of this statement the noble lord entered
into details relative to the conflicting interest and
sentiments of the inhabitants of the States in:question.
It would be most injurious to the interests of Europe if
anything occurred to affect the integrity of Denmark, and
the best exertions of her Majesty's Government would be
directed to effecting an amicable adjustment of the differ-
ences that had unfortunately arisen. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord went on to say that although there were many
hon. gentlemen in the house who might feel a partiality for
Germany or for Denmark, the hon. and gallant member for
Aberdeen was the only one who took an interest in the
Taepings. (A laugh.) The hon. and gallant member had
asked many questions on matters he had read in the North
China Herald. In reply to his request, it could not bepro-
mised that any papers which the Government could give
him on the subject should be very quickly laid on the table,
because the clerks in the Foreign-office were now fully em-
ployed in copying, and the printers in printing, other docu-
ments to be laid before the house. The noble lord then
particularised the papers relative to the Chinese rebellion
which he should be able to produce.
ARTERIAL DRAINAGE.

Sir J. SHELLEY wished to ask the Secretary of State
for the Home Department when the promised bill for the
amendment of arterial drainage and outfalls would be intro-
duced by the Government ?
Mr. CLIVE said that a bill had been drawn before Easter,
but it was found necessary to reconsider and revise it. He
hoped that some day before the end of the month it would
be presented to the house.
EVICTIONS IN DONEGAL.

Mr. SCULLY wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ire-
land if he had received information that on Monday, the
Bth of April inst., a resident magistrate, with a sub-inspec-
tor and 200 police, assisted the sheriff of the county of
Donegal to evict 45 families, numbering about 280 persons,
from the townland of Derrybaugh in that county ? They
had heard in that house a good deal about oppressed na-
tionalities, but he defied any member of the house to find a
parallel out of Ireland for such a scene as that which was
enacted on the occasion referred to. The hon. gentleman
read from the Dublin _Daily Express, a Tory paper, and also
from the Londonderry Standard, an account of the evic-
tions. He had often heard the noble lord at the head of the
Government quote the words pudet ha3c opprobria, &c., and
he would now ask him and the Government whether some
means, such as the compelling of the landlord to maintain
for some time the persons he evicted could not be devised to
check this constant eviction of human beings from their
homes. It was true that the steward of the landlord had-
been brutally murdered near the scene of these proceedings,
bnt he did not think that justified the wlplesale eviction
of so many persons. "He found no fault-with the resident
magistrate, Mr. Dillon, who appeared to have performed
his duty in a humane and considerate manner.
. .

Mr. CARDWELL said that he had received no official
account of the transaction to which his hon. friend referred,
nor could he have received any account within the time
since the notice had been given. He understood his hon.
friend acquitted the officers of the crown of any charge of
inhumanity, and admitted that they performed their duty
in a considerate and humane manner. With regard to the
exercise of his private rights by the gentleman in question,
he could not express any opinion, having no official report,

and knowing only the facts as they appeared in the columns
of the newspaper. But he believed no member of that
house would say a word in vindication or extenuation of
any indiscriminate evictions, or of any unkind and un-
feeling exercise of private rights. As a matter of fact,
however, he must state that the steward of this gentle-
man had been recently murdered, and that the mur-
derers had not been brought to conviction. On a recent
occasion also the premises in which this gentleman had
been sleeping were set on fire. These were facts which
ought to be known. But in the absence of official informa-
tion he declined to express any opinion.

STOPPAGE OF SAILORS' PAY.

Sir J. PAKINGTON said he wished to ask his noble

friend the Secretary of the Admiralty whether it was true
that there had been a delay in the payment of sailors in
Portsmouth Harbour; if true, to what [extent it was true,
whether the practice extended to Plymouth or any other
harbours besides Portsmouth, and what were the reasons
for withholding the pay. He asked these questions in con-
sequence of a paragraph which appeared in the Times on
Monday last, which stated that great dissatisfaction was

felt by the men in consequenv. This statement appeared
to give some colour to rumours which had reached him
some time before, but to whichbe gave no credit, that the
pay of the men was postponed with a financial object till
after the financial year.
Lord C. PAGET said the Admiralty had not received

any complaints of the nature to which his right hon. friend
alluded. He also wished distinctly to state the Admiralty
had in no case withheld the pay of the men for a financial
object. When sailors desired to send money to their wives
or friends there were two modes of doing so; they could
either remit the pay themselves or remit a portion of it as
it became due. When they saw it stated that some discon-
tent existed amongst the men they referred to Portsmouth
on the subject, and the report came up that day, but he had
not had time to see it himself. Besides the portion of the
pay paid to the wives, the men had a monthly allowance,
which was made to them at all times. At this period of the
year the books of the ships in the home ports were made up
and the balance due to the men was handed over to them by
remittances ; that was to say, they were permitted to remit
it to their friends. A few days before the books were made
up the men were asked whether they wished to remit a por-
tion of their pay, and a great many of them did wish to do
so, and then they wrote to their friends to state that they
had remitted so and so—Ls for instance—aid the parties
probably expected to receive it by return of post. It was
impossible, however, they could do so, and sometimes they
had to wait till the end of the month before the order could
be got from the Accountant-General for the payment of
these remittances.

Lord FERMOY said before the question was put he
wished to tender his thanks to his hon. friend (Mr. Scully )
for having called the attention of the house to the recent
evictions which had taken place in Ireland. The right hon.
gentleman had alluded to the murder of Mr. Dare's steward
There might be one person or ten persons guilty on the
estate, but that was no justification for victimising 270 in
nocent persons. It appeared that the sheriff and police were
present to do their duty, but there was another legal officer
who was not present—the relieving officer—whose duty it
was to have been present to convey these poor persons to
the workhouse, instead of their being left, as they were the
whole night, on a bare mountain without shelter.
MEXICAN BONDHOLDERS.

Mr. BUTT, who had given notice of a motion for an
address for copies of any convention providing for the ap•
propriation of the customs duties of any of the Mexican
ports to the payment of the claim of the bondholders, said
he was quite ready to go on with his motion, but he under-
stood fromthe noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
that he did not expect a discussion to-night, and he would,
therefore, postpone his motion till Tuesday.
RELIGIOUS WORSHIP.
Mr. L. KING obtained leave to bring in a bill to afford
facilities for performing divine service by ministers of the
Church of England and Ireland.
SMOKE NUISANCES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill passed through committee. _ _

ANNOYANCE JURORS (WESTMINSTER) BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
POST-OFFICE SAVINGS BANK BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.

LONDON COAL AND WINE DUES CONTINU-

ANCE BILL.

On the motion of Sir G. C. LEWIS, the commitlee on this
bill was postponed till Monday.
CHARITABLE USES BILL.
This bill was read a second time.

SUPPLY—COMMITTEE, ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. LONUFIELD, in resuming the adjourned debate on
Ithe amendment of the hon. baronet, the member sfor Tavi-
r4ek (Sir J. Trelawny), viz. :—that instead of the speaker
nviug the chair, " while this heuse is prepared to contri •
bate all the aid in its power to the eaecutive in putting

down rebellion inher Majesty's colony of New Zealand, yet,
having regard to the treaty of Waitangi, it would rejoice
to hear that the difficult and complicated question of the
title to the block of land at the Waitara is to be the subject
of inquiry before a special tribunal immediately on the re-
assertion of the: Queen's :authority," said that the govern-
ment last evenineclaimed absolute exemption from blame on
the part of the governor of New Zealand, while he thought
the most that could be said was that while possessing the
best intentions possible to act rightly, he had been betrayed
into a fatal error in waging war with those whose rights
ought to be respected. It was well known that the. settlers
when they went to buy the land knew that the title to it
was disputed. It, was admitted that there was a tribal
right to the land. If the Government had simply contended
that the settlers could make a better use of the land than
the natives of New Zealand, it would be quite a different
matter; but they overlooked the rights of the natives, and
urged that Governor Brown was right in all his transactions
with the natives, and that Wm. King was wrong in every
instance, If the hon. baronet went to a division he, should
vote for the amendment.

Mr. LOWE said the question admitted of a plain state-
ment being made in very few words. The colony was in-
habited by two races, Europeans and Maories. The Euro-
peans possessed the northern part, and the southern was
occupied by the Maories. The rights of the Queen had been
settled by the treaty of Waitangi, and under it she was
enabled to extinguish the native title to the land which was
purchased. It was stipulated that the Queen should have
the right of pre-emption, so that she might be the interme-
diary between the settlers and the natives in land transac-
tions, and thus prevent disputes arising. The Government
of New Zealand entered into an agreement with certain
persons for a large Flew of their land, situate on the river
Waitara, and on concluding the bargain a map was laid at
the feet of the governor symbolical of its covering the land
sold to him. Subsequently the chief, Wm. King, came
forward and said the land (belonged to those persons, but
that he would not allow them to dispose of it, and the whole
question was whether this chief was justified in the course
he had pursued. The question seemed to him (Mr. Lowe)
to be one of an exceedingly simple solution. The chief
gave no reasons for his conduct; he did not appeal to any
court, tribunal, or authority, but he simply spoke as one
sovereign would to another, " I hold the land in my hand,
and I will not let`it go." He also said that they (the sel-
lers) had floated the land, but that he would not let it go
to sea. The chief began by stating that he had no pro-
perty in the land, yet he would not let the settlers purchase
and take possession of it. This was an exceedingly
simple case, and it merely amounted to this : that this
chief, being very strong, and confident in his own
power, defied the English Government, and inter-
vened between the natives, who wished to sell, and the
British Government, who wished to buy. By the simple
exercise of his sole power he would not allow the sale
and purchase to take place. The result of such a course
led to acts of violence, and then war broke out between the
natives and the colonial Government. There was a land
league, with William King at the head of it, organised fiir
the purpose of preventing the sale of any more land to the
Government, and he was carrying out that policy in defiance
of the treaty of Waitangi. The chiefs had thrown off their
allegiance to the Queen, and it was absolutely necessary
that the colonial Government should exert the royal autho-
rity by force of arms.

[At this point, there being only about 25 members pre-
sent, an hon. member moved that the house be counted.
Before the glass had run out about 25 other members came
into the house from the lobbies, and there were conse-
quently more than 40 members present when the Speaker
had finished counting.]
Mr. LOWE continued—lt must be admitted that only
one interpretation could be placed upon the conduct of Wm.
King when read by the light of the transactions connected
with it. It was sought to be made out that that chief could
by the exercise of his veto prevent the sale of this land.
But it must be proved strictly that he possessed that right.
Was the right in him, in the tribe, or in ene of the families ?
Next, what was the custom in reference to the disposition of
land ? Did the majority of the tribe sell it, or must they be
unanimous ? Then again, what were the powers of the
chief ? Could he act independently of the tribe or not ?
All these were difficult questions, and must be proved by
those who set up this right to the land, but it could not be
established. It must be remembered that they had to deal
with a semi savage race of people, where right was akin to
might. Still the proof lay 'upon those who asserted the
right ; but the presumption of right was with those persons
who came forward to sell their land. There was no proof
of any tribal right, no proof that this man, Wm. King, was
the chief of the tribe, no proof that any agreement had been
come to by the tribe or any part of it that he should veto
this sale and purchase, or that he should act as their agent
in the matter. On the other hand, all the presumptions
were in favour of the real owners and the Government of
the colony. Even if Wm. King had been in the right he
had put himself in the wrong. He ought to have appealed
to some competent tribunal, or to the governor. If the
Government acted upon the principles now urged by some
hon. members other horrors and outrages would ensue.
Whatever might have been tha cause of quarrel, the strug-
gle was now one between the two races for power and do-
minion. The Maories wished to drive the English into the

sea, while the English hoped to become possessed of their

land. (Hear.) He hoped the houso would not agree to any
resolution which would show that they had no confidence
in the governor of the colony.
Mr. ADDERLEY thought the discussion on this amend-
ment promised to bo of very little use in its protraction.
According to his view of the discussion, if it proved anything
it proved that this question could not be usefully dealt with
by that house. (Hear, hear.) That was apparent during
the speech of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat
down, and from the present attenuated, he might say
moribund, state of the house. (There were about 25 mem-
bers present.) He thought it would be awaste of time to at-
tempt to come to any satisfactory conclusion en the ques-
tion when it had been found impossible to do so in the
colony itself. If the views of those who desired to censure
the governor were sound, it would be absolutely impossible
to hold land in New Zealand at all. The war was now
raging, and it must be finished before they could usefully
discuss the question. But the chancesof its beingcentinued
would be increased by this discussion, if a report of it should
reach the colony before the war was brought to a conclu-
sion. The colony had been allowed to have representative
institutions, and the Parliament. of New' Zealand would
not allow the House of Commons to decide this important
question for them. Since those institutions had been
granted the native interests had been carefully attended
to ; and who were more interested in the welfare and hap-
piness of the natives than the colonists themselves ?
(Hear, hear.) He believed that they might safely entrust
the colonists to maintain good faith with thenatives. After
the war was concluded it would be necessary to revise
the law of 1853, and to strike out those clauses in the act

which implicated the English parliament in any way with

. -
questions of this sort, and to leave them to be dealt with
by persons on the spot, who would more easily put an end
to them, and also prevent many disturbances from arising.
Mr. KENNARD regretted that so very few members
were present during this discussion, and also the entire
want of a few words of conciliation from the government in
this case. They were all united in feeling that the rebel-
lion must be put down, but they had hoped the government
would make some declaration that the treaty of Waitangi
should be adhered to, that all disputed questions should be
clearly settled, and that the law should be made more
simple for the future. The government, however, seemed
determined to press forward the war, and to attend more
to the interests of the colonists than to the natives. He
regretted the tone which the government had adopted upon
this subject, but he did not see any use in continuing the
debate. (Hear, hear.)

Colonel DUNNE said he merely rose to say that Colonel
Brown, the governor of New Zealand, was his personal
friend, and that there was no man living who could be more
trusted than he to deal with the natives in a spirit of fair-
ness and justice. He hoped the house would not pass a vote
of censure upon a man doing his duty in a distant part, and
under very great difficulties.

Mr. DUNLOP did not understand that the resolution
implied a censure upon the governor of New Zealand, but
that it was simply intended to shorten the war, and bring
it to a conclusion by showing the natives that the questions
between them and the settlers should be dealt with fairly
and properly by ajudicial tribunal. It was not the wish of
himself and others to exterminate the race of the Maories,
but to lead them to believe that the Government would do
them all the justice their case deserved, and that their
rights in the land would be respected. He should support
the amendment if the house divided. (Hear, hear.)

The house divided—
For going into committee
For the amendment 24-14
The Speaker then left the chair.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

£161,157 Admiralty-office.
Mr. WILLIAMS requested an explanation of the great
increase in the number of clerks. The salaries of these
additional gentlemen amounted to no less than £8,117.

Lord C. PAGET said it was caused by a corresponding
diminution in the number of extra clerks, who had in
reality been regularly employed. On the whole, there was
a reduction in the vote.

The item was then agreed to, as were the following :
£253,422 , coast-guard service, royal naval coast volun-
teers, and royal naval reserve.
£G3,851, scientific branch.
£172,947, establishments at home.
£33,640 establishments abroad.

£1,112,126, artificers, &c., at home.

£67,828, artificers, &c., abroad.
£66,000. medical stores.

£90,510, miscellaneous,
£684,016, half-pay.
£486,430, military pensions.
£180,397, civil pensions and allowances.
£247,000, conveyance of troops.
Lord C. PAGET postponed votes 10 and 11(£3,489,477,
naval stores for building and outfitting fleet, steam vessels,
machinery, and ships built by contract; and £469,835 for
new works). He did so in consequence of a motion which
the hon. member for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay) proposed to
bring forward on the subject.
The orders were then disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at 9 o'clock,

TIIE SUN, LONDON, :SATURDAY