The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, .IONDOlkt: TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 23, , 186 L

THIRD EDITION.

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

THE LATE FA TA L ENCOUNTER IN

NORVICIFIBERL AND-S TREET.

ADJOURNED INQUEST—(THIS DAY.)
The coroner's inquiry into the circumstances attending
the death of William John. Roberts, lately occupying apart-
ments in Northumberland-street, Strand, was resumed this
morning in the board-room of Charing .cross Hospital be-
fore Mr. St. Clair Bedford, the coroner for the city of West-
minster.

Mr. Humphreys attended on the part of Major Murray,
and Mr. Sleigh for the family of the late Mr. Roberts.

Police-constable 155 F said—l was on duty near
Northumberland-street, on the 12th inst., about noon.
Passing through Craven-court I met Major Murray, ac-
companied by Mr. Ramsey. As soon as he saw me he said,
*‘ Go round to 16, Northumberland-street, to a man who
has shot me in the neck. He's in the first floor." I went
there and proceeded upstairs, and tried to open the doors
of the rooms ; as I could not 1 tried to force them open, but
did not succeed. I then went down stairs and called for a
ladder, and one was brought. I placed it against the back
window of the first floor, and entered the room by that
means. I found the place in great confusion, and a great
quantity of blood beneath the window which I had entered.
I then tried to open the back room door. I tried for some
time, and did not succeed. After twisting the large handle
of the lock round and round the door seemed to open of
itself. I observed after that there was a small nut or screw
on the lock, but I cannot say whether that would make the
lock on the door secure. On letting the police in I went
into the room and found Mr. Roberts in a corner in the
front room. I took hold of him, and he raised himself up
and got hold of the handle of the door. I sent for a cab.
While it was gone for Roberts said to " Let me sit
down and die." I did not hear him say anything
else. When I got him to the hospital I searched
his clothes and found some Crystal Palace cards,
one address card, marked " John Frazer Walker,
solicitor, 16, Northumberland-street," half a return ticket,
S.W. Railway, first .class, Richmond to London, fourpercus-
sion caps, and two penny pieces. That was all the money
found in his pockets. Three rings were on his fingers and
one in his pocket.
The Coroner—Only twopence in his pockets, Was that
all?

Witness—Yes, sir.
By Mr. Sleigh—l did not put any questions to Roberts.
All I heard him say is what I have stated.
By Mr. Humphreys—l am quite sure the back room door
was fastened inside: It was not locked. The key was in
the door outside ; I tried to turn it, but could not.
Police-constable Langley, 100 A—l went to 16, North-
umberland-street, on the 12th. I saw Golding talking to
Mr. Roberts, jun. He said somebody has been shot, and
he is trying to get out of the window. I asked him who
was in the front room, and he replied, " I think it's my
father." I entered the place and saw white smoke about
the room. There was also a strong smell of gunpowder. I
saw on the table in the centre of the room the brace of pis-
tols I produce. Both hammers were down, and the secret
triggers were out. On one was an exploded cap. Both ap-
peared to have been recently discharged. I saw the deceased
in the front room in the position described. He was lifted
up and placed in an armchair. A cab was sent for and he
was taken to the hospital. I saw two other large pistols
lying on the ground by the window in the back room. I
examined them, and they did "not appear to have been dis-
charged for some time. I did not examine them as to
whether they were loaded. I don't know they are not loaded
at the present time. The room was all in confusion.
Inspector Mackenzie, of the F division of police, said—
On Friday, the 12th inst., I went to Northumberland-street,
about 12 o'clock at noon. I went to the first floor, lately
occupied by Mr. Roberts. On entering the back room I
found it in great confusion. I proceeded to make a minute
search of the place, and under the window there were large
ools of blood. Everything about was saturated with it.
On searching the corner I found t \to portions of a pair of
tongs. I also found another portion of the same, article
lying on a table. Near the spot I found two broken bottles
one quite whole covered with blood. I also found a pistol
case on the floor. Close to it I picked up 23 leaden bullets,
some of which were covered with blood. The bullets fit
both pairs of pistols. I proceeded with my search, and
under the table I found the case belonging to the small
pair of pistols. Blood is on both pistol cases. I also found
a powder canister containing powder, and near the same
spot I found an old-fashioned six-chember revolver pistol.
It was in the woollen bag I now prodt,ce. The large pistols
were do a table near which Mr. Roberts usually sat. One of
the large pistols I found loaded with ball. I drew the charge.
The charge was well home. There was a cap on the other
pistol, but it did not appear as if it had been fired for some
days. On the mantelpiece I found the percussion cap. case.
The caps fit the nipples of both pairs of pistols. I found
the secretoire drawers had been pulled out, but nothing

appeared to have been disturbed. They contained prin-
eipally law forms. I examined the mantelpiece and found
there were bullet marks about it. On the shelf I found

eight flattened bullets, which evidently had been fired from
the pistols. There were three bullet holes in the wall.
The prints hanging up close to the mindow were found
sprinkled with blood. One of the squares of glass
in the window was completely covered with small spots
of blood. I saw there were marks of blood on the doors.
The outer door of the front room was locked. It remains so
at present. Near the folding door I found a pillow covered
with blood. There were some beer bottles and small por-
tions of bread lying about the room. All the things in the
place were very dusty. On returning to the back room I saw
a quantity of blood on the carpet and hearth-rug. After I
had further examined the room I went to the hospital
and saw both Major Murray and ),Ir. Roberts
there. I then returned to Northumberland-street
and further prosecuted my examination. I fcrand marks of
blood on the water pipe near the back rcom window, and
some scratches under the outside of the windowas from the
the toe of a boot. I have examined the whole of the papers,
and I do not find any correspondence between Mt. Roberts
and Major Murray. While I was searching the front
room young Mr. Roberts took another pistol, which I pro-
duce, from a cabinet in the front room. On the 19th I
was again searching the front room, when I found the rasor
I produce, covered with blood, in a small oak cabinet near
the window. I also found in a basket, with some other
linen, three shirts, a handkerchief, and a towel spotted with
blood.
Coroner—ls there any mark on the linen?
Inspector M'Kenzie--None.
ftra
The witness proceeded—l also found a sheet of white
blotting paper with blood on it. On holding it up to the
light I discovered a direction. It was "Mrs. Murray, Eni
Lodge, Talbotioad, Tottenham." There were also somel it
n e salso marks of a letter.
can see
found thed h words
Mr. Sleigh took the paper,
e le: I
and after a minute's exami•
nation,said, s
bearer."
vcannot r elsatd, 'y'
ad"sderneds
sbeyd
letters from a
to W. J. Roberts, Northumberland-court, Charing-cross.
I found them in a
waste-paper basket in the front room.
They do not in the slightest relate to the present transac-
tion.

Mr. Sleigh—l should like to form my own opinion aboul
lat.

black lsi%lir r. Mr. . Tahlsaot if'sounpadrt
The Coroner read the letters, but their contents did not
ofunder
Majorthe
mwurrinadyo:
whis-
kers.soraetranspire.
hair.Km pe nhir ieey—a
.I_
Mr. T. Roberts—You have no right to say so. It is just
as likely to be the hair of the unfortunate deceased.
Humphreys
—Such remarks as you have just made
not addressing you, Sir.
ougihrtjinoutmtPoilbreqms—adie.Wals say again, it is just as likely to
I be the hair of Mr. Roberts as Major Murray.
Mr. M'Kenzie then proceeded to relate a conversation he
bad had with Major Murray, in the hospital, as to his con-
nection with Mr. Roberts. The statement was precisely
the same as that given in evidence yesterday by the wit-
evening, about half-past seven, I was again in
wit-
ness Ramsey. The witness then proceeded—On seeing
him if he knew me, and he said,
Mr. Roberts, after his arrival at the hospital, I asked him
how it was done, and he replied " Murray did it." I said
very
gwotelltlh,saeidto,ngs,
i, How ?" and be replied, "My head is too bad now." On
you are Mr. Mac-
the following
the hospital. He was sensible. I went and sat down by
kenzie." I said, " Will
his bed
hbeydes,sidle.knolwaskyeodu
you tell me how you received all
" Tell me how,
the injuries about the head 2" and he replied, "Yes, a
mramaern:
annnodabmeartertdsu.a,: Murray
hiddi,daant,iglite.
and attacked
'eord-market, and he came to
glass bottle." I said, " Tell me
more particularly, did you know Murray before ?" He
replied, " I have seen him before, but never speke to him."
I asked if he met him by accident or appointment. He
said, " By accident, in II
Major Murray shot
and attacked me with the tongs
hlrayiikme osaef il
himself
ee
iiawnointthh,e neck,
andrae awboituht aa
g loan.lass
bottle,"
tal
et . , ,
I asked him the
amount of the loan, and he said, " 5-0,000." I asked if
he w wished do
,to I ,
vmakee nothing a deposition
more
to
y.”
beforea
a magistrate, and he
said,
I did not speak to
him after, although I saw him every day until his death,
s
When Major Murray was telling me about the conversa-
• tion, I told him the name of the person he had spoken of
was Roberts, not Grey.
Mr. Roberts's
o Mr. Roberts
m son,
made
id ye
al\hnlidra.
otheri Sleigh—Superintendent
ive—enrtSs:umplse r
thinki
werent endeunotb presenterts Durkin,Nvh
told i
me he had been
dozing. The spots of blood on the window in the back
room were considerably higher than a man's head. The
. drawer in which I found the razor was closed, and there
. were no marks of blood either on the things inside or mit-
t side of it. I found that a woman lived at Elm Lodge call-
-1 ing herself Mrs. Murray. Her name is Anne Maria
. Murray.
7 Mr. Humphreys—l beg to say I shall tender that lady's

evidence.
Witness—l found this was the residence of Major Mur-
ray. The name of Roberts is on the door of No. 16, Nor-
thumberland-street. There is no name of Grey or anything
like it painted on the door. I distinctly heard Major
Murray say repeatedly that he had: never before been in
the house No. 16, Noith-Imberland-street.
By Mr. Humphreys—The last encounter, according to
Major Murray was near the folding doors—partly in one

room and partly in another. The legs of Roberts were in
the back room and the body in the front. Murray said he
took up the legs and turned them into the front room.
Mr. Sleigh objected to the mode of cross-examination.
Mr. Humphreys thought he was being unnecessarily in-
terrupted.

Mr. Roberts again made some observation, when
Mr. Humphreys said if such interruptions were continued
it would be the duty of the Coroner to order the person so
interrupting out of the room.
Mr. Roberts thought such remarks quite uncalled for.
After some further conversation, the cross-examination
proceed ed—l cannot say whether Roberts walked or crawled
from one spot to the other. There is no indication of his
having been dragged there. in the back room there is a
small chair with blood on the seat, but I cannot say whether
it would be so if a man had been shot while sitting there. To
get to the secretoire which has been referred to the natural
course would be round the back of the person sitting on the
left hand of the fire place ; to go in any other way the per-
son sitting would have to be removed. The hair I found
under the window appears to be that of a person's whisker
rather than hair from the head. It is the colour of Major
Murray's hair. Altogether I found six pistols—two pairs,
a revolver, and a pocket pistol. The shirt with the
blood upon it was found upon the linen basket. The
towel was found on the drugget or carpet. The name of
"Walker" on the blotting paper appears to be in the hand-
writing of Roberts. I found several documents in Robeits
rooms relative to army agency with the names of Stoqueler
and Eicke on them. I don't know who Nicholson is, or
who Roberts, Nicholson, and Co. are.',/

Mr. Humphreys—Have you tested by all means in your
power in your official capacity as to the truth of Major
Murray's statement ?
Mr. Sleigh objected to the question, and it was not put.
Coroner—Have you any evidence to corroborate Majori
Murray's statement
Inspector Mackenzie—None but what has been given.

)11r. Eliza Tyler, the sister of the ward in which Mr.
Roberts died, deposed that while attending him he appeared
more inclined to speak to her than any one else. On
Saturday night, the 18th, she asked''Mr. Roberts who had
beaten him so ' • he replied Murray did it. She then asked
him who shot Major Murray ;*he replied, he (Murray) shot
himself first, and beat him afterwards, and said he had
beaten him with tho tongs and poker ; he never said any-
thing about his going to die. Witness asked Mr. Roberts
if he knew Major Murray; his reply was, that he had seen
him before but never spoke to him. She asked him where
he reet Major Murray; he replied, "In Hungerford-
market." She then asked him who spoke first; ne replied,
he spoke first; and on witness asking him why, he said that
he thought Major Murray belonged to the Grosvenor Hotel
Company, and thought his company wanted money.
By Mr. Humphreys—He did not at any time say that he
had known Major Murray before ; what he said was, " 1
have seen him before, but never spoke to him."
Mr. Wm. Roberts, the son of the deceased, recalled—l
have been in the habit of acting far my father. Ho had
no associate or partner. I used to sit in the room of No. 17.
Mr. Superintendent Durkin explained that there was a
communication from the staircase of No. 16 into 17 ; there
was no communication from Mr. Roberts's rooms to No. 17,
except through the landing.
Mr. Wm. Roberts continued—l transacted the business
in No. 17, and frequently went into my father's room in
No. 16. Was there on Thursday week last. The back
room was generally clean and orderly. Was rot in the
habit of going into the front room, but was there about a
week ago ; it was then in order. My father used to dust
his room himself. He last saw a woman acting as a laun-
dress cleaning the room about a week before.
The witness here identified the whole of the pistols pro-
(lured as belonging to his father, except the revolver, which
he had never seen before. On Wednesday week last he
fired the small pistol at the mantel-piece in the back room,
that was the only time he did so.
By the Coroner—l have seen my father on two distinct
occasions fire pistols at the fire place, but did not know
whether he was in the habit of doing so. I identify
the handwriting on the blotting paper, "Mrs. Murray, Elm
Lodge, Tott onham, as those of my father. The impress of
the other writing on the blotting paper is that of my father.
The two letters produced are also in his handwriting. I
knew Major Murray by sight. In March last I was walk-
ing with my father in the Strand, when he said, " that is
Major Murray. Saw him about a month afterwards
on the landing leading to his father's office. He did
not speak to him ; it was about three or four o'clock in the
afternoon ; it was in the month of April, but he could not
say what day. He going to the bankers—the London
and Westminster P,ank, to change a cheque; it was my
father's cheque, My father was at home when I saw Major
Murray on the landing, I have often heard my father say
he had been out with Major Murray all day at the Grosve-
nor Hotel. I have never written to Major Murray, but I
have seen two letters written by my father to Major Mur-
ray, which I have posted. I don't know any person that
had any communication with my father and Major Murray.
I have seen letters from Mrs. Murray to my father. He
has told me that they were from Mrs. Murray. I do not
know whether he had any business transactions with Mrs.
Murray. She used to call at the office often.
By Mr. Sleigh—When I saw Major Murray on the land-
ing he was going towards my father's office ; es I was going
down stairs I heard Major Murray knock at the door. I
had to go into the City, and did not return to the office
that day. When I and my father met Major Murray
in the Strand we were going towards the Temple.
Major Murray was coming towards Charing-cross. First
heard Major Murray's name mentioned about the
beginning of this year. I have seen Major Murray
in the hospital ; he is the same person I saw in
the Strand and on the landing. I have frequently posted
letters to Mrs. Murray. I have known the pistols produced
about two years; my father had told me he had them eight
years. My father was not an irascible man, but rather quiet.
The bottles produced used to stand on a shelf within reach.
I have seen Mrs. Murray call at the office as long
back as October. She used to call about twice a week,
and she generally came in the afternoon. I have left
the chambers when Mrs. Murray has been with my
father; last saw her there about a fortnight or three weeks
since.
By Mr. Humphreys—l am 18 years of age, and have
been in the business with my father about two years. First
saw Mrs. Murray at my father's about 12 months ago. When
Mrs. Murray has been theee, never went to cash a cheque. It
was in March when I met Major Murray iu the Strand. I
was then going with my father to issue a writ. It
was about the middle, and it was about a month after that

I net Major Murray on the landing. Was certain that no
one else was there to see Major Murray but myself. The
writ we were going to issue was against Mr. Charles
Routledge. Was certain it was in the month of March.
It was on the right hand side of the Strand, near Water,-
100-bridge, we met Major Murray. Did not observe
any recodnition between him and my father. I
posted two letters to Major Murray, but do not recollect
the address of either. I think it was in March when I said
one was directep to Pimlico ; I meant one of the letters to
Mrs. Murray. I have only shot off the two pistols once.
I heard my father say he never saw Major Murray before
in all his life, and yet I swear that it was Major Murray
I saw on the landing. I recollect my father and
mother being at a fete at the Crystal Palace. When they
met Mrs. Murray my father introduced her to my mother.
I have heard they also met her at the Surrey Hall, when
Mr. Spurgeon was preaching there. I did not know whether
my father had been in the habit of lending Mrs. Murray
money. Mrs. Murray was in the habit of calling on my
father two or three times a week, but sometimes not at all.
By Mr. Sleigh, through the Coroner—l have often heard
my father speak to my mother about Major Murray and
Mrs. Murray.
By Mr. Humphreys-1 never heard my mother say she
had ever seen Major Murray before the 12th of this month.
A very lengthened disrussion here took place as to an
adjournment, Dr. Canton stating that it would be unad-
visable to examine Major Murray to-day. He would be
much better after a night's rest. It was ultimately deter-
mined to go on for another hour, and then adjourn to
Thursday.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(Tnis EVENING.)
Tile LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Thl Earl of Egremont's Estate Bill, the Stourbridge
Railway (extension to Smethwiek, &c.) Bill, and the Swan-
sea and Meath Railway Bill were read a third time and

passed.