The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

been continued, and some completed, and I think it would
be much more satisfactory to know what has been the ac-
tual addition to the navy during the year. (Hear, hear.)
In former years it was pointed out that our navy was deft•
dent, especially iu frigates, as compared with the force of
other countries. The noble lord's statement wilLscarcely
enlighten the public as to the addition made to that class

of vessels.
Lord C. PAGET—It is given in the returns now on the
table.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I was much gratified with that
part of the noble lord's statement in which he announced
the intention of the Admiralty on the subject of the increase
of the dockyard accommodation at Chatham. During the
short time that I had the honour to be at the head of the
Board of Admiralty there was no subject which occupied
more of our attention ; and the more we considered it the
more we approached to that decision to which the present
board has arrived with respect to Chatham being the place
at which it was desirable the addition should be made.
(Hear.) I would here close the few remarks that I have
ventured to address the house, were it not that I feel ob-
liged to allude to another part of the subject, which I con-
fess I cannot approach without great hesitation and doubt,

but which, at the same time, I consider perhaps the most
important point of all. I mean the present state of disci-
pline in the navy. Again I say that I approach this point
with a sense of its delicacy and difficulty; but I am so
strongly impressed with its overwhelming importance and
so struck with statements that have reached me, and which
it is impossible for me not to believe, that I cannot help

calling the noble lord's attention to it. I hope my noble
friend will believe me when I say that I do so in no party

spirit, but through a sincere sense of duty ; because I be•

ieve that it is essential to our best interests that everything

should be done to make this great arm of our war service

as efficient as possible in all respects. (Hear.) On a former
occasion, in reply to an observation made by an hon. mem-
ber, the hon. gentleman opposite, who is one of the Lords

of the Admiralty (Mr. Whitbread), gave it as his opinion
that as soon as certain bounty men were got rid of the state
of discipline would be satisfactory. The noble lord (Lord
C. Paget) had adverted to this matter again this evening in
terms which I heard with great satisfaction ; for of course
in my noble friend's position his sources of information are
better than those at the command of private members.
That being so, I am not to be understood as impeaching the
assertions of the hon. gentleman or the noble lord ; but I
am bound to say that the statements which have reached
me are of such a character 1 hat I cannot help fearing that
the officials of the Admiralty may have been in some degree
misled. The public are already excited and alarmed, and I
hope the Admiralty may be able to make a statement that
will allay the uneasiness on the subject. (Hear.) Palpable
facts are within the knowledge of all who read the news-
papers. Every one has heard of the unhappy mutiny which
occurred about a year ago at the paying off of the Princess
Royal, and that was followed shortly afterwards by the
mutiny on board the Liffey, in the harbour of Portland. If
these were isolated cases they might not be regarded in so
serious a light, but we have all read in the newspapers that
a squadron of ships of the Royal Navy could not proceed to
North America to accompany the heir to the British Crown
to that part of her Majesty's dominions without losing by
desertion a considerable portion of the crews. (Hear.) If
report be true, those ships were deterred from going to the
port of New York lest further desertions might take place.
Some time ago I moved for a return of desertions ; and from
the paper laid on the table it appears that in 1858 the num-
ber was 1,811; in 1859 1,873 ; while for the nine months of
1860 it was 2,322, showing a very great increase. (Hear.)

I have here letters which have been written by officers in
command of our ships in different parts of the world. I
think I had better abstain from reading them—(hear)—but
the statements which they make on the subject of desertions
—and especially desettions in the Mediterranean—are very
distressing. As to the appointment of Admiral Martin to
the command of the Mediterranean squadron, I believe it
would have been impossible for the noble duke at the head
of the Admiralty to select an officer more likely to restore

good discipline. (Hear.) But the state of discipline in our
ships has become a subject of comment not only in this but
in other countries. I have in my hand the translation of a

pamphlet entitled " Reflections on the Navy," and written
by a Capitaine de Fregate—Capitaino L. Foillouy. Refer-
ring to the various measures adopted in this country from
time to time during a considerable period for alterations in
our rules as regards the sailors aboard men-of-war, the
writer observes:—

" Experience will show what degree of success may attend
these measures, directed, be it said, by an imperious neces-
sity ; but it is already easy to perceive that granting certain
concessions to the habits and tastes of English seamen has
sensibly weakened discipline and lowered the bearing of the
crews cn board their ships."
I have conversed lately with several distinguished naval
officers who have had an opportunity of watching the dis-
cipline on board ships of war, and they have assured me
that the statements which I have received are not exag-
gerated. Some of those officers are now unemployed, but
others are in command of ships. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord and the hon. gentleman told us that the evil
was to be attributed to the inferior sailors whom the high
bounty offered by the late Board had induced to enter the
service. If that be so, as the bounty has been lowered, the
cause may be removed ; but I find that many attributed the
deterioration of the discipline to this fact—that, rightly or
wrongly, there does exist on the pait of tho ofGoo,, In Ow
British naval service a dread that if they resort to ;hose
measures that often are necessary to maintain discipline on
board a ship they would not be supported by the Board of
Admiralty. If this be a true statement it is one that affects
not the present Board of Admiralty only, but also those
that have preceded it. I bring it forward in the hope that
the noble lord will turn his attention to it, and be able
to diminish the public anxiety clothe subject. I cannot
resist the conclusion that some such feeling as I have re-
ferred to exists; and I think it is of tke highest importance
that no pains should be spared to bring the crews of our
ships back to that high state of discipline that used to dis-
tinguish them, and which is so essential to the security of
the country. (Hear.) The noble lord adverted to the state-
ment of my hon. and gallant friend (Sir J. Elphinstone),
that dissatisfaction exists among the officers of the navy,
and expressed his opinion that no feeling of the kind exists
to any such extent as would prevent them doing their duty
to the country. In that opinion I cordially agree with the
noble lord ; and I am sure that nothing would give my hon.
and gallant friend greater pain than to have it supposed
that anything he said implied a doubt as to the officers of
the navy doing their duty to their country. (Hear.) It
cannot be denied, however, that there are serious doubts as
to the condition of the crews, and to that subject I earnestly
hope the attention of the Admiralty will be directed.
Mr. BAXT ER had listened with great pleasure to the
statement of the noble lord, but he nevertheless was of
opinion that there ought to have been a still greater reduc-
tion of the navy estimates. He held that this country
ought to have a navy superior to that of any other maritime
i State. To lose our maritime supremacy would be poor
economy ; but at the same time it was impossible not to
see that our naval expenditure was increasing to an extent
far greater than the necessities of the country required.
During the last four years the navy estimates had increased
from £9,000,000 to £12,000,000. On a comparison with
the French navy it was found that the preponderance of
vessels was immensely on our side, and we were at this mo-
ment expending 30 per cent. more in naval preparations
than the two greatest maritime nations combined. He had
understood the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty to
say on a former occasion that France had 15 iron-cased
vessels approaching completion, but to-night he had stated
that four were block ships and four were gunboats.
Lord C. PAGET—Five gunboats and ten large ships.
Mr. BAXTER—That was four block ships and six large
ships, which tallied with the statement of the hon. member
for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay). He had last year made in-
quiries and derived information from sources quite distinct
from those to which the hon. member for Sunderland had
access, but the results were nearly the same. He found
that the French had La Gloire afloat; another was to be
completed in the present year, and the Magenta and Sol-
ferino were expected to be launched in the course of 1862.
In confirmation of what had been said of the little ac-
tivity that prevailed in the French dockyards he referred to
the report' of -a gentleman who had been sent out by the
Scotsman newspaper. He reported that at Cherbourg
there was general tranquillity, that there was but one large
ship in the harbour, the Areole ; one frigate was building,
and La Normandie was receiving her plates. At Brest
there were but three ships. At Lorient there were four
frigates ; at Rochefort only four small brigs, a steam tran-
sport, and a frigate in course of construction. At Toulon
pthi
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were not 50 men at work in the large forging house. Now
with respect to the comparative number of men in the
French and English navies, he had iaade inquiries, and he
found that last year there were in the French Imperial navy
30,588 men and boys. Parliament had last year voted for
the English navy 84,000 men and boys, but it now appeared
that only 81,000 had been employed. The fact was, how-
ever, that the number voted, 84,000, was greater than all
the seamen in the merchant service of France. It might be
asked how could that be, seeing that in 1860 there were
156,000 names upon the maritime inscription of France ;
but he had made inquiries, and found that that number not
only included all the men and boys in the Imperial navy
and merchant service, but also all the workmen in the dock-
yards, all the fishermen on the coasts, and all the boatmen
upon the navigable rivers. Indeed, statistics clearly showed
that the mercantile marine of France was in a state of deca-
dence, for in 1859 the French had 42,000 tons less of ship-
ping than they possessed in 1857. In order to prove still
more the fact of the decadence of the French mercantile
marine, he would refer to returns made to that house, which
'howed that the total value of French goods imported into
his country was i 13,271,800. In 1859 the value of French
oods imported into this country exceeded £16,000,000,
eing an increase of £3,598,000. - There was, however, a
I;reat decrease in the tonnage of French vessels. In 1858
the number of French ships entering our ports was 7,010,
dill°, in 1859, they had fallen off to 5,946. There was, in
Let, a steady progress downward in the mercantile power
f France. He believed the French had laid down no great
vooden ship, whether line-of-battle ships or frigates, since
.856. (Lord Pa!marston.—They launched one the other
LaY.) Ile had said they had not laid one down since 1656,