The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-04 00:00:00

' the opinions he had expressed in relation to the iron-clad
ships of France. They were told that the French had 24
or 25 iron-clad ships, while they (the English) had not
more than 12. He did not see why the Admiralty should
not convert certain classes of their ships and cover them
with iron plates. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
Warrior (British ship) it was considered that at close
quarters she would not be able to compete with La Gloire.
Ho had been told that at close quarters a shot into the
Warrior would go through two or three compartments,
and that a shot driven into her between wind and water
would be very alarming. He therefore thought that such
ships were not those upon which they should rely for their
defence, and that the Admiralty should not build and the
Government should not sanction any more such ships.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK said they had discussions of this kind
year after year on this subject, but they came to nothing—
(hear, hear)—and they were now much in the same situa-
tion as on former occasions. With respect to their ship
anchors, he was told that those who tendered for them were
very much in the same situation as those who tendered for
machinery ; but such was not the case. Mr. Trotman's
auchors were subjected some years ago to tests, and the
report of the committee was that his anchors were superior
to those of the Admiralty. But Mr. Trotman had not at
the time the power to carry out this experiment. He (Mr.
Bentinck) wanted to know whether by the process of testing
they could or could not give better anchors than they had
at present,! and at a cheaper price? He agreed in the
opinion expressed by his friend, as to the Board of Admi-
ralty, and he could only say that he and his hon. friend sat
day after day inquiring into the merits and demerits of that
board; and that such an inquiry, as related to it, was per-
fectly hopeless. Then, with respect to the proposed reduc
tions of expense, so long as the Board of Admiralty was
constituted as it was, there was no chance of any—they must
submit to the Board. With respect to iron clad ships, he
concurred with the right hon. baronet, the member for
Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington), that the Admiralty, the
Government, and the Legislature ought to take such steps
as would put them upon an equality with their Gallic
neighbours. (Hear, hear.) The invasion of France by
England had been spoken of as a justification for the efforts
which were being made by France to increase her naval
armament; but there was nothing less likely than that this
country would think of invading France, and for this rea-
son, that she had not one fifth of the land forces possessed
by France. (Hear.)
Mr. DALGLISH trusted the Admiralty would not go on
too rapidly in building iron-ships.
Sir F. SMITH contended they were not bound blindly
to rush into a vast expenditure. He did not see why the
wooden vessels which were in a state of progress ought not
to be cased
.with iron instead of their building new iron
ships.

Lord C. PAGET said among the eminent men consulted
were Mr. Laird and Mr. Napier, of Glasgow, in the con-
struction of these ships. It had been stated that Mr. Trot-
man would make anchors cheaper than the Admiralty
could. All he (Lord C. Paget) could say was this, that if
Mr. Trotman would send in a tender it would be laid before
the board for consideration.
Mr. CONINGIIAM said as there were other anchor-
makers in the country ho thought the making of anchors
for the Admiralty ought to be thrown open to public com-
petition.

Mr. BALL was of opinion that this country should
always be in a position to show that it was the first naval
country in the world.
Lord PALMERSTON assured the house that the ques-
tion as to the best method of providing steam-engines and
boilers had not escaped the attention of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. It was a subject of vital importance to this
country, for every one must see at a glance that if any other
power were to acquire maritime superiority, the eminence
of England would be lost, and her interests would be en
dangered. The question therefore was, seeing that other
countries, and mcst especially their nearest neighbour, were
making efforts and commencing a career of an extensive
construction of iron-clad ships, what could the Government
do to meet the corresponding demands of this country. The
right hon. baronet stated the other day very accurately the
number of ships of war which the French Government had
already constructed, or had ordered to be constructed. The
total number, so far as they were informed, amounted
to 15. Of these the larger number had only recently been
ordered to be laid down, and it would take considerable
time before the entire 15 were launched and fitted for sea.
Her Majesty's Government had built or were now building
seven iron clad ships, as had been stated by his noblefriend.
The Government had to consider the best and readiest method
of providing a considerable and valuable addition to our
iron clad ships, and it was thought the readiest and most
effective method, and that which would be accomplished in
the shortest space of time, would be to take advantage of
the preparations that had been made for constructing
wooden line-of-battle ships, to pile five of them up and pre-
pare them to be clad with iron. (Hear.) It was obvious
they would save time in that way, because they would have
the materials prepared, and the ships would be fit for sea
at an earlier period than the five ships which it was now
proposed to commence for the first time. The French ships,
all but two, were commenced. They were to be covered with
iron, and our five ships would be of the same class and de-
scription, and armed with guns of the best possible calibre.
They would be formidable, and he trusted that by arrange-
ments they would be sea-going ships as well as floating
batteries. (Hear.) Therefore, when these five were added
to the other seven, they would have 12 vessels as against 15
of the French. The French had about the same number of
floating batteries as they had, and the one might be set
against the other. He wished the house clearly to under-
stand, that although the Government now stated the mea-
sures they were prepared at once to take, that did not pre-
clude theni in any degree from taking other measures with
a view of building other iron ships of a larger and more
formidable description. But that which had passed in the
present discussion would show that it would be unwise to
launch at once any of these iron vessels of the new de-
scription until the Government had come to some clear
and definite understanding of what was the best form
and the best construction of vessels of that kind. This
would involve a large expenditure, but that expenditure
should not stand in the way of providing the best means
for the national security. Ships of that description must
be built by contract. They could not be built in the Go-
vernment dockyards, and before the Government undertook
to complete large iron-clad vessels, experiments should be
made to ascertain the best and most useful vessels of that
kind. In the meantime the Government were taking those
steps which would put them in possession of five iron-clad
vessels armed with the heaviest guns. They would be
ready before the five vessels ordered by the French Govern-
ment, because they were prepared with the materials,which
he supposed the French were not ; and therefore when these
five were equipped and ready for sea, we should be, in his
opinion, quite on a par with the French. (Hear, hear.)
Sir AI. PE TO said that no hon. member would withhold
from Government what was necessary for the honour and
dignity of the country, but it was quite clear that there was
a general want of confidence in the Board of Admiralty and
its executive. They could not commence the building of
five iron-clad ships without large establishments. Chatham
Dockyard was the last place that ought to have been selected
for the construction of the first iron ship. With regard to
the clothing of wooden ships with iron, he should like to
know where that was to be done ; as he was anxious that
they should not get into the erection of large establish-
mente for that purpose. The house would not grudge the
money for five such vessels, or for five more if they were
needed, but it was their duty to consider seriously where
the establishments for building them were to be placed, and
that there was a proper staff available to superintend their
construction, which he was bound to say they had not.
As regarded their naval rivalry with France, France was
only doing what this country should have done in 1858.
France had taken advantage of the experience gained at
Kinburn during the Russian war, soon after which it
began building iron-plated ships. Ho deprecated these
discussions, because ho knew the effect which they pro-
duced in France. The Government rushed into a reckless
expenditure 0 maintain a prestige in the presence of a
neighbouring country, where not a shilling was laid out
without adequate value to represent it. He regretted to see
them led on by a vague: feeling of apprehension, arising
from the knowledge that a great mind in France was doing
that which they lacked the energy to do here.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, with regard to iron-plated
ships, observed that, assuming their employment in naval
warfare would be effective, as to which there was great
doubt, the cinestion was, which was the best mode in which
they could be built—whether in the Government yards or
by private contract. They had no system, he maintained,
by which the cost of a ship of war could be known ; if they
had, the noble lord could state how much the Achilles had
cost. Until they had a better system, therefore, they should
be careful how they trusted the Government with all those
millions of money. The question ho wished to put to the
Government, therefore, was, what was the machinery they
had by which the cost of a vessel built in their yards, and
capable of comparison with a contract-built vessel, could be
ascertained.

Lord 0. PAGET, in reply to the hon. member for Fins-
bury (Sir M. Pete) said he begged to state that the ships in
question were all built in her Majesty's yards by the artifi-
cers in the yards, and the only additional expense was for
the iron plates, which would be purchased by contract. In
reply to the hon. member for Evesham, he had to state, that
the expense of building the Achilles would be fully ascer-
tained as a guide to their future operations.
Sir J. ELPIIINSTONE said they were mow satisfied
that Government were going to build five ships, but unless
they were properly constructed they would be of no use,
and he would suggest that they should appoint a committee
of scientific men, who would say how these ships should be
constructed, and this inquiry could be carried on simulta-
neously with the building of the ships. If this were done
they would have a report furnished to the house on the sub-

jut in a month, and no delay whatever would take place in
respect to the building of the ships in question.

After a few words from Mr. BENTINCK,
Mr. LINDSAY considered that wo wore going on in a
very unsatisfactory manner, in reference to the building of
ships. Where was this increase of ship-building. to end ?
We were entering into treaties of commerce with France,

and yet if France was building five) ships this Government

came down and asked more money for increased shipbuild-
ipg. Ike believed that France was going on steadily, while