The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-13 00:00:00

INIPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

THE VICTORIA CROSS.

(From the Gazette of last evening.)
WAR-OFFICE, APRIL 12.
The Queen has been graciously pleased to confirm the
\ The
grant of the Dec oration of the Victoria Cross to the under-
at five
mentioned Officers and Prii rates of her Majesty's Army and 1
Indian Military Forces, wlaich decoration has been prer•a_ •
sionally conferred upon them by the Commander-in-C'
in India, in accordance wit h the rules laid down in h
et. ma-
jesty's Warrant instituting the same, on account e 1 acts cf
bravery performed by them during the operationr under his
personal command, as re corded against their nr,umes, viz :
Lieutenant (now Captain) Thomas Bernard Hackett
—For daring gallantry at Secundra Bagh, Lucknow, on the 18th November, 1857, in having With others
lying a corporal of the 23d Regimen'e, who was
lying wounded and ,exposed to a very heaTry fire. Al
for conspicuous bray( ?ry, in having, Wilder heavy
fire, ascended the root; and cut down the thata ch of a
bungalow, to prevent its being set on.' fire. This was a
most important service at the time.
Private George Munger, 23d Regiment—For daring
gallantry at Secundra Bagh, Lucknow, on the 18th No-
vember, 1857, in having volunteered to accompany Lieu-
tenant Hackett, whom he assisted in bringing in a corporal
of the 23d Regiment, who was lying wounded in an
exposed position.
Colour-Sergeant Stewart M'Pherson, 78th Regiment--
For daring gallantry in the Lucknow Residency on the
26th of September, 1857, in having rescued, at great per-
sonal risk, a wounded private of his company, who was
lying in a most exposed situation, under a very heavy fire.
Colour-Sergeant 31Therson was also distinguished on
many occasions by his coolness and gallantry in action.
Drummer Thomas Flinn, 64th Regiment—Fer conspi-
cuous gallantry, in the charge on the eneray's guns on the
28th November, 1857, when, being himself wounded, he
engaged in a hand-to-hand encounter two of the rebel artil-
lerymen.
Captain George Alexander Barmy, Bengal Horse Artil-
lery—Lieut.-Colonel Farquhar, commanding the let Be-
looch Regiment, reports that he was in command of the
troops stationed in the Delhi magazine, after its capture on
the 16th of September, 1857. Early in the forenoon of that
day, a vigorous attack was made on the post by the enemy,
and was kept up with great violence for some time, with.
out the slightest chance of success. Under cover of a
heavy cross fire from the high houses on the right
flank of the magazine, and from Selinghur and
the Palace, the enemy advanced to the high
wall of the magazine, and endeavoured to set
fire to a thatched roof. The roof was partially set fire
to, which was extinguished at the spot by a sepoy of the
Belooch Battalion, a soldier of the 61st Regiment hay'
in vain attempted to do so. The roof having been -z?g
set on Fire, Captain Renny with great gallantry -
n mounted
shells the top of the wall of the magazine, and 8.-a
g several I
of the enemy,
shells with lighted fuzes over into the midst
as 1:-%e attack at once
which had an almost immediate effect,
-er ceased there.
became feeble at that point, and soon art-
-I:toddy, Bengal Arm
Ensign (now Lieutenant) Patrick
toddy, Bengal
(Unattached)—Major-General Sir
K.C.8., Commanding Oudh Force, kers tests - P rani,
gallant conduct of Lieutenant Rod Py ora s@ fit
.y to the
One instance is particularly Ir..entioned. 0- . occasions.
from Kuthiega of the Ku , 4 the return
":;purthulla Cor
wh, ingent, lin thee
27th of Septemher, 1858,,ihis officer, Ai engaged wth th
enemy, charged a r":eel (armed with. a percussion musket),
whom the cave:ll7 were afraid to a' roach as each time they
attempted to do so the re:`,oll-nelt 'and covered his
assailant +juts, however, ''...id not deter Lientenant Roddy,
who went boldly in, an"
when within six yards, the rebel
fired, killing Lieuter.. ant Roddy's horse, and before he could
get disengaged fr.-0m
him down. I: the horse, the rebel attempted to cut
could get at I-
-.,ll.:Artenant Roddy seized the , rebel until he
bed ..lis sword, when he ran the man through the
Natiy.v' Tae -I.de rebel turned out to be a subadar of the late Bth
elLaracter.infantrv,a powerful man, and a most determined
.

PROM THE GAZETTE OF ZAST NIGHT.

LORD CHAMBERLAIN'S OFFICE, APRIL 11.
Notice is hereby given, that the State Apartments of
Windsor Castle will be closed on and after Wednesday the
13th instant, until further orders.
WHITEHALL, APRIL 11.
The Queen has been pleased to direct letters patent to be
passed under the ereat Seal, granting the dignity
Baron of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land unto the 'undermentioned Gentlemen, and the respec-
tive heirs male of their bodies lawfully begotten, viz :
Colonel George Wyndham, of Petworth, -in the county
of Sussex by the name, style, and title of Baron Lecon-
field, of Susses,
in the East Riding of the county of York.
William Tatton Egerton, Esquire, by the name, style,
and title of Baron Egerton, of Tatton, in the county pala-
tine of Chester.
Sir Charles Morgan Robinson Morgan, Baronet, by the
name, style, and title of Baron Tredegar, of Tredegar, in
the county of Monmouth.
The Queen has also been pleased to direct letters patent
to passed under the Great Seal, granting the dignity of a
Baronet of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland, unto the undermentioned Gentlemen, and the re-
spective heirs male of their bodies lawfully begotten, viz. :
William Miles, of Leigh Court, in the county of Somer-
set, Esquire.
John Neeld, of Grittleton, in the county of Wilts,
Esquire.
Edward Grogan, of Msyvore, in the county of West-
meath, Esquire.
John Henry Greville Smyth, of Ashton Court, in the
county of Somerset, Esquire.
George Stucley Stucley, of Affeton Castle and Hartland
PhAbbey, in t.he county of Devon Esquire.
Duncombe PauncefortDuncombe, of Great Brick-
hill Manor, in the county of Bucks, Esquire.
FOREIGN OFFICE, APRIL 9.
Notice is hereby given that the Earl of Malmesbury has
appointed Charles Bennington, Esq., to bo Agent at Great
Office Grimsby for the issue of :Foreign Oce Passports.
HOME-OFFICE, APRIL 11.
The Liverpool Farm School, near Newton, in the county
of Lancaster, has been certified by the Secretazy of State
as fit to be a Reformatory School for Boys, under the pro-
visions of the statute 17 and 18 Vic., c. 86.
WHITEHALL, MARCH 29.
The Lord Chancellor has appointed Williams Sandom, of
Deptford, in the county of Kent, Gentleman, to be a Lon-
don Commissioner to administer oaths in the High Court
of Chancery.

COMMISSIONS BY LORDS LIEUTENANT.
Leicestershire Militia—Charles Henry Morris, Esq., to
be Captain, vice Thomas, deceased.
Worcestershire Regiment of Militia—Lieutenant William
Taylor to be Captain, vice Thomas W. Hinder, resigned;
John Sechmere, Gent., to be Lieutenant, vice Taylor,
promoted.
Royal South Gloucester Light Infantry Regiment of
Militia— Edward Daniel Gibson, Gent., to be Ensign, vice
Jackson, promoted.
Hampshire Regiment of Militia—Captain Wm. Henry
Digweed to be Major, vice Robbins, resigned.
Hampshire Militia Artillery—Coventry Bayntun, Gent.,
to be Second Lieutenant.
Northumberland Regiment of Militia Artillery—Alfred
Joseph Mackay, Gent., to be Lieutenant.
Hussar Regiment of Yorkshire Yeomanry Cavalry—
Major Sir John Vanden Bempde Johnstone, Bart., to
be Lieutenant-Colonel, vice 13eckett, who retires • Captain
tine Right Honourable Beilby Richard, Baron ?Wenlock,
to be Major, vice Sir J. V. B. Johnstone, promoted ;
Lieut. the Hon. Robert Neville Lawley to be Captain, vies
Lord Wentock, promoted; Cornet Robert Swann to be
Lieutenant, vice Lawley, promoted ; Henry Frederick
Clare Vyner, Gent. to be Cornet, vice Swann, promoted.
Ist Regiment of Royal Cheshire Militia—Captain John
Hinton Daniell, late of 49th and 42d Regiments, to be
Captain, vice S. J. Saunders, resigned.
MEmonaicnum--.-Lieut. St. George Lowther, resigned.
[The following appointment is substituted for that which
appeared in the " Gazette " of the sth inst.]
Durham Artillery Militia.—Captain Octavius Pelly, half-
pay 7th Madras Light Cavalry, to be Captain, vice G. J.
Scurfield, resigned.
MEMORANDUM.—Her Maj esty has been graciously pleased
to accept the resignation of the Commissions held by the
following gentlemen, viz.:—
West York Rifle Regiment of Militia—Lieutenant John
Vanse Monckton ;
3d Regiment (Light Infantry). of the West York Militia
—Ensign James Maguire Mangm ; •
Hussar Regiment of Yorkshire Yeomanry Cavalry—
Lieutenant Colonel William Beckett.

HOUSE .-OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY);
LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
o'clock.

Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition from Aberdeen,
praying that Scotland might have equal electoral righ
with England in any reform of the representative system. ts
THIRD
Lo READINGS.
On the motion of rd REDESDALE the following bills
were severally read a third time and passed :—Banff,
Macduff, and Turriff Junction Railway ;l Forraartine and
Buchan Railway; Norwich Corn Exchange, and Great
Western and Brentford Railway.

INDIAN ARMY.
Earl GRANVILLETHE asked the noble earl whether he
would lay the report of the commission on the orgltmsation
of the Indian army on the table of the house.
The Earl of DERBY said he had not yet seen the report
alluded to, but he had no doubt it would be laid before their
lordships before the prorogation.

THAMES WATERMEN AND LIGHTERMEN'S
BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL moved the suspension of the stand-
ing order 179, sec. 5, in order thathe might move that this
bill be recommitted to the same committee which reported
on' it on the 11th inst.
had E arl
better G RsEtayte suggestedh
et hf
oarte thhee
mnoovbel
de
tahne ds
ul esapn ie
ne ds i 0
nl o r do f
the standing order, as much time would be saved by such
a course.
of LthoerdnoChAleMeaPrßl, EanLdLhsedaideehoredwinouilydeadntoepretd tahte
osumggej, suggestion
into the causes that had induced him to adoptsthee, present
course. It was the opinion of those
the measure that if it were allowed to a 7,,.. posed
t at ot
present stood the watermen and lighter 4,„
many of their privileges, and the interes* would lose
s o! the public
would greatly suffer. The committee t,- " been referred had, it was emote& J which the bill had
stopped. The committee were ..ed2 been prematurely
reception Of the report from '' of opinion that after the
quiry ought to close, but ti- the Board of Trade the in-
contrary opinion, as their .le opposers of the bill were of a
pity of cross
examine, - counsel had not had an Earlopportu-
The
of t'
of AIY.
-L ion.
the chairman -LIE, in the absence of the noble lord
The noble r One committee, defended the course adopted.
committee. and learned lord had stated that in the
material
mater counsel against the bill and several
fact .- witnesses had not been heard. Why the
had • ,as that for a whole day the time of the committee
r - been taken up with the examination of fourteen wit-
.esses all called to speak to one point, namely,
that 'the navigation of the Thames was of a
very difficult nature and required peculiar skill in the
Waterman and lightermen. The chairman repeatedly called
for witnesses to speak on other points on which information
was wanted, but the opposers persisted in speaking only
upon the point above mentioned, and, under such circum-
stances, he considered the committee were not only
justified, but bound to stop the waste of time that was
going' on. With respect to the other allegations in the
petition, there was not one that was not fully inquired into
with the exception of that of vested rights. Considering
that this bill was very strongly recommended by the Ad-
miralty and the Board of Trade, he thought great delay
and expense would be incurred if the motion of the noble
and learned lord was agreed to.
Lord TEYNHAM said the impression left on the minds
of the committee was that the monopoly ought to be
abolished, unless evidence could be given to show that it
was necessary on grounds of public policy. The noble lord
gave a long detail of what had passed in committee, and
said that the counsel for the petitioners had not asked to be
heard and had not been refused.
Lord REDESDALE rose to order. The noble lord ought
not to enter into the merits of the bill, or there would be no
end of the discussion. (Hear, hear.)
Lord TEYNHAM denied that he was doing so. He was
merely showing why the motion should not be agreed to.
Lord KINNAIRD considereditmostirregular for a com-
mittee to stop or refuse to hear a counsel. In this case the
committee had desired the counsel to call the secretary of
the company ; but he, wishing to examine other witnesses
first, had declined to do so. He hoped the house would
agree to the motion.
The Earl of DUCIE, another member of the committee,
said he had no objection again to serve if the bill were re-
committed ; but it would involve the company in great ex-
pense.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE did not think that the
committee had given that fair hearing to the opponents of
the bill to which they were entitled. In his official capacity
he had heard all their evidence, but must say it had not
made much impression on his mind. (Hear, hear.) The
bill if recommitted might be reported before the prorogation.
Lord VIVIAN said the committee had heard fourteen
witnesses against the bill, the master, wardens, and all the
officers of the company, who repeated' the same story usqus
ad nauseant. The simple question was, should the bill be,
recommitted because it was not convenient for the learntJd
counsel (Mr. Hope Scott) to address the committee Vaen
he ought to have done so. He protested in the strfa'agest
terms against the bill being recommitted.
Lord REDESDALE said the house ought to cwider the
effect which the carrying of this motion might have on their
proceedings generally. If committees were to men a prac-
tice of stopping counsel, an unfavourable imprze sion would
be created out of doors as to the chance of justloe being done
by their lordships. He thought a case had. Vaen made out
for recommitting the bill. =
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY said 'their lordships
had hitherto placed implicit confidence in Vaeir committees,
and had never, except under very grave
cir-
cumstances, interfered with any decision ‘ and peculiar
they had come to.
It was obvious that great discretion at- ast be given to those
to whom their lordships delegated it.,
to the amount of evidence thetuai• private legislation, as
ght think fit to listen to
,on any particular point. In
present case it would un-
doubtedly have been better if.
tine committee had heard Mr.
e Scott; and it would
D'arhaps be prudent to refer the
bill back to them,
his speech. (Hear he-Ar
.)
in On/4%. to enable Mr. Scott to deliver
The Marquis of eLANRICARDE observed that the
whole difficulty had. P.risen from the conduct of the counsel;
and if the bill were, recommiited, it ought surely to be accom-
panied by a stro_er, expression of their lordships' opinion as
to the extent t'. which committees were to be subjected to
thcaprice o`i counsel. (Cheers.)
uke of SOMERSET said the question with which
their lordshir,s had to deal was one of considerable difficulty.
On the one Wand, they would be most anxious to uphold the
character of their committees ; but, on the other hand, they,
would FA no less anxious that the decisions of those com-
mittees should enjoy the confidence of the public. (Hear.)
He had himself had a very large experience on committees
of the other house, and it had always been his practice to
listen with the utmosti patience to all that could be said by
that party of whose case he had begun to form an unfavour-
able opinion. At the same time it occasionally happened
that the opposing party would try to defeat a bill by delay ;
and a rule had been laid downby the Commons' committees
not to allow the same point to be proved by more than two
or at most three witnesses. In the present case the committee
had been placed under a great disadvantage by not hearing
an opening speech from counsel, to direct their attention to
the salient points of the evidence. He should therefore ad-
vise the recommittal of the bill; and its recommittal to a
new committee.
Earl GREY thought that as the committee had fallen
into the perhaps very natural error of not hearing counsel,
the bill ought to be recommitted. At the same time, he
could not agree that the noble lords who had formed the old
committee were likely to be so prejudiced that it was at all
necessary to send the case before a new one. To appoint a
new committee would moreover be most unjust to the pro-
'rioters of the bill, because their case would have to be begun
again de novo, and they would thus practically be mulcted
in a heavy sum for an error of which the committee, and
not they, had been guilty. (Hear. hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL, in reply, said he had never thought
of a new committee until he heard the declarations of the
noble lords who had served on the old one.
The motion for recommitting the bill was then agreed to.
On the motion for its recommittal to a new committee,
Lord REDESDALE supported the proposal, and ob-
served that it had always been considered a matter for the
election of counsel whether their speeches should precede or
follow the evidence they had to call.
Their lordships divided—
Content
Non-content 2B-16
The bill was therefore referred back to the same com-
mittee.

MEDICAL ACT (1858) AMENDMENT BILL.
The Commons' reasons for disagreeing with one of the
amendments of their lordships were considered.
Lord WENSLEYDALE moved that their lordships
should not insist on their amendment.
The Earl of CARNARVON assented. The original ob-
ject of the bill was merely to postpone the date at which the
act of last year should come in force ; but during its passage
through Parliament a few other amendments had been per-
haps added to it. The act itself had been very hastily drawn,
and it no doubt contained many imperfections, but if any
hardships were found to arise, there was no reason why an-
other and more complete amendment should not be intro-
duced next year.
The amendment objected to was then abandoned.
T
This bill was read a second time.l BILL.
PUBLIC OFFICES EXTENSION BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
COMBINATION OF WORKMEN BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
AFFIDAVITS BY COMMISSION,
The report of amendments on this bill was 'brought up
and agreed to.

INEMNIT.
This bill was read a D
third time andBILL
passed.
NOTTINGHAM CHARITIES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
ST. JAMES BALDERSLEy MARRIAGES
VALIDITY .
This bill was read a third me and a ILLnd passed.
MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS BILL.
The bill was read a second time.
The house then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the Norwich (City) Water
Bill and the Falmouth Docks and Harbour Bill were con-
sidered and agreed to, and the bills were respectively
ordered to be read a third time.

The Lymington. Railway Bill was read a third time.
The following bills were considered, and ordered for third
reading :—Carlisle and Penrith, &c., Roads ; Commercial
Docks Acts Amendment ; Dundee and Nowtyle Railway ;
Mountsorrel Railway; Nuneaton and Hinckley Railway;
Wear Navigation and Sunderland Docks.
The Galway Harbour and Port Act (1853) Amendment
Bill was read a second time.
BAILIEBOROUGH UNION.
Mr. BOWYER moved for copies of the resolutions of
the board of guardians adopted on and since the 16th day of
October, 1854, together with the correspondence which took
place between the Poor Law Commissioners and the board
of guardians, as well as the correspondence which took
place between the Poor Law Commissioners, and the late
Catholic chaplain, relating to the Catholic chaplaincy of the
Bailieborough Union. Agreed to.
THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said in reference to a question on
the paper to be addressed to him by the right hon. member
for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), that he would ask him. (Sir
B. Hall), or rather make a request of him, namely, that he
would conclude his question with a motion. That course
would enable him to enter into an explanation of his con-
duct.sr i
B.
s. teHa
Ad
Le fLbeing
he
restricted tcoo
na
eel
ua tdeeg ihisc aciluaens
tsiwo
ne r.;v t h
a motion, but he would postpone putting it until the Cbn-
solidation Fund Appropriation Bill came forward.
TITLES TO LAND (SCOTLAND.)
This bill was withdrawn.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT—SUPPLEMENTAL BILL.
This bill was read a third time and pima.

EANPTP BILL.
O PR
AND PROBATE ACT (1858)
CONFIRMATION
lATION BILL
This bill was read a third time and passed.
CONSOLIDATEADMFENUNDMD
—ALLEGED ILLEGAL INTER
THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY. FERENCE OF
On the motion for the second r din
ea gof this hilt,
Sir B. HALL asked the First Lord of
ralty whether he would have any objectiethe Admi-
to the house the reasons which had led to then dismisstate
sal
or the retirement of Captain Carnegie from. the officem of
one of the Lords of the Admiralty ; and whether Admiral
Sir !Richard Dundas also tendered his r "
_esignatzon, and
had since been induced to remain at the Board ; and also
asked for the name or names of the officers appointed to
fill the vacancy or vacancies ? It would be -remem-
bered that he had moved for the appointment of
a committee to inquire into the conduct of the
Board of Admiralty with reference to
interference in the re-
turn of members to that house, and. that committee had made
as the house was aware, tt report oni the subject
condemnatory of the Board f Admiralty iW h
t reference
to his motion a report w • ')
wets current to the effect that Sir R.
Dundas had been sent f
and was ordered b'- (I.`.
by the Firstiord of the Admiralty,
Dover. Having,,, him to stand for the borough of
and resigned -eclined to comply with this instruction,
ralty, eapto. situation as one of the Lords of asstdmi-
offer was 'a Carnegie was then sent for, and milar
m , made to him, and he put himslf into com-
t'Ation with a confidential adviser, and received a
relY''rt from him respecting his chances of being returned
f' ~r Dover. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Bernal Osborne.) That
confidential adviser told him he had not a chance for the bo-
rough. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Osborne.) He had another
interview with the First Lord of the Admiralty, and then
he felt called on to resign his office at the board, stating
that he could not consistently with his feelings retain his
position. (Hear, hear.) He received a telegraphic
communication from the gallant , gentleman, who,
objected to the word in his motion of dismissal," had stated that he had resigned. (Hear, hear. and
) He also
added that he knew he could not be returned, and, there-
fore, did not consider that he was called on to stand for that
borough. Sir William Holt was then sent for, and having
declined to stand for Dover, he was not appointed to the
vacant office at the board ; for however valuable the ser-
vices of the gallant gentleman were he was not accepted,
because he did not do the official bidding of the First Lord
of the Admiralty. Admiral Mundy was next sent for, and
his services were dispensed with for the same reasons. Sir
Thomas Herbert was then sent for, and was despatched to
another borough, but whether he was a Lord of the Ad-
miralty or not he could not say. Sir Henry Leeke was next
summoned, and was sent to Devonport, and being a large
contractor, he was a very proper person no doubt to be sent.
That gentleman did not receive support from the dock-
yards, the men employed there having strongly disapproved
of the intention of the Government bill to disfranchise
them. Sir Henry Leeke then issued a communication ad-
dressed to the outfitters of Devonport, in which he pro-
mised them a portion of the advantages of the cadets, and
other perquisites at present monopolised by Portimouth.
Notwithstanding, however, he was unsuccessful, and be was
then sent to Dover. Admiral Martin either tendered his
resignation, or intended to have done so. He, however,
was retained, and Captain Carnegie 's services were dis-
pensed with. The latter gentleman was one of the ablest
officers connected with the navy ; besides, he was in the
prime of life ; and he was replaced by a man of more than
70 years of age. They were on the eve of a war, and instead
of sending members of the Board of Admiralty favin'place to
place to obtain seats in Parliament they should be directed to
devote the whole of their energies to a supervision of the
dockyards, so as to place their naval force in a state of effi-
ciency to meet any crisis that might arise. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAK INGTON—I must, in the .first place, sir, ex-
press a very great doubt whether a clu'Jstion such as that
which the right hon. baronet has novey,sit to me is onewhich
ought in strict propriety to be put i'n this house. (Oh, oh,
and Hear, hear.) The very fay' ain which he has shaped
the question shows that he entertained some doubt as to its
propriety. He says he will Disk " whether I will have any
objection to state." Now, 'sir, we all know that in the for-
mation of Governments and in the conduct of Governments
`personal arrangements and communications take place be-
tween the gentlemen of whom these Governments consist;
communications perfeatly fair and honourable in themselves,
but which are not irdended to be, and ought not to be, sub-
mitted to public qriestion and answer hi this house. (Hear.)
Having thus 'guarded myself against admitting the pro-
priety of the question, I beg distinctly to say, that as far as
I am eanerJrned in this case, I have no objection to answer
the querAion ; but on the contrary, I am very glad the right
hon.
;',Jaronet has afforded me an opportunity of doing so.
Sit, before answering the inquiry which has been addressed
to. me, I think it right to remind the house that for a very
Long period all successive administrations have felt it to be,
not their interest merely—for it rests upon higher grounds
—but their duty, to endeavour that some of the naval mem-
bers of the Board of Admiralty should occupy seats in the
House of Commous—(hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches)—in order that they might be able to touch upon
those professional subjects, and to answer those professional
inquiries which we all know are frequently brought under
public attention. Sir, I have looked back as far as the year
1819, and I have found that from that year there has not
been one Board of Admiralty previous to the present which
has not bad some naval lords occupying seats in this house;
there has always been one, sometimes two, andirequently
three. Lord Melville had in some years only one, but for
many years he had two. In 1830 Sir James Graham had
two naval lords in the house, in 1834 Lord Auckland had
three. Lord Minto had sometimes two and sometimes three;
he had three in 1837 and in 1841. Lord Haddington had in
1841 two, and in 1843 three naval lords in the house. Lord
Ellenborough in 1846 had three; Lord Auckland in 1846
had two, and in 1847 three. Sir Francis Baring in 1849 had
three, and in 1850 two. The Duke of Northumberland in
1852 had two ; Sir James Graham in 1853, and throughout
the remainder of his administration, had one. From 1855
to 1857 Sir Charles Wood had one naval lord here, Sir M.
Berkeley. When Parliament was dissolved, on the advice
of the noble viscount opposite, in 1857, Sir M. Berkeley lost
his seat for Gloucester; and the short period that intervened
between the last general election and the month of Feb-
ruary last year was the first time during 40 years that any
Board of Admiralty was without a naval lord sitting in
this house. (Hear, hear.) Sir, when the present Govern,
ment was constituted, at the end of February, 1858, I felt,
as all previous First Lords of the Admiralty had no doubt
felt, that it was most desirable that some naval member of
the board should have a seat in this house. I requested an
hon. and gallant friend of mine, who was a member of this
house, to accept a seat at the Board of Admiralty. Much
to my regret my proposal was declined. I then constituted
the Board of Admiralty in a manner the general efficiency
of which has been acknowledged; but which has always
been subject to the serious disadvantage that not one of the
naval lords has had a seat iuthis house. (Hear.) The house
cannot have forgotten to what an unusual extent our atten-
tion was occupied during the Past session, and has been
occupied up to the present time during the present session,
by discussions on naval subjects ; and notwithstanding the
great and well-known competency of my hon. friend the Se-
cretary of the Admiralty, I have felt, and felt very painfully,
the great disadvantage—l say again, not a party or a per-
sonal disadvantage, but a disadvantage connected with the
highest interests of the public service—l say I have painfully
felt this disadvantage when I have had to contend in argu-
ment with such men as my noble and gallant
friend the mem-
for Sandwich, and the gallant admiral the member for
Southwark. As a civilian, I have felt the disadvantage of
not having that professiodal assistance on these subjects of
which every one of my forredecessors
• 40 years had the
benefit. (Cheers.) Sir, under these circumstances it was my
wish, and it was my intention, with the full concurrence of
my colleagues, to avail myself of the first opportunity which
might arise to endeavour to supply this serious deficiency.
The first opportunity arose a few weeks ago, when a vacancy
occurred at the Board of Admiralty in consequence of my
appointing Captain Drummond to the command atWoolwich.
Having a vacant seat to fill up on that occasion, I sent for
Captain Carnegie, and in a personal interview I requested
him to accept the vacant office ; but I told Capt. Carnegie
at the time the serious disadvantage to which I found my
board exposed by having none of its naval members in this
house, and I asked Capt. Carnegie fairly and openly whether
he would accept the vacant seat, with a clear and distinct
understanding that he was willing to enter the House of
Commons whenever he might be required so to do by the
Government, for any fairly eligible seat. (Laughter.) Capt.
Carnegie required eight-and-forty hours to consider this
proposal. So far as I remember the proposal was made in a
conversation on Saturday. Everything that passed between
us was verbal. Nothing was taken down in writing, and I
am very sorry for it. He requested till Monday, I think, to
give me an answer. On Monday he came to me again, and
told me that he had considered my proposal, and the condi-
tion with which it was accompanied, and that he should be
happy to accept the offer. (Mmisterial cheers.) On that oc-
casion, wishing that there might be no misunderstanding, I
repeated to Capt. Carnegie in plain terms what was the
condition, observing that the public service required that
there should, if possible, be a naval member of the board
in the House of Commons, and I asked him whether he
was willing to accept that condition. Capt. Carnegie again
clearly understood it, and accepted the office with that con-
dition. Accordingly, Captain Carnegie joined the board.
Nothing more passed on this subject until the Government
had decided to advise the dissolution of the present parlia-
ment. I, as a matter of course—and I don't thivk the right
hon. gentleman (Sir B. Hall) can blame me for so doing—
then reminded Captain Carnegie of the understandinffm
to
which he had entered ; and, so far as I can recollect, j men-
tioned to him three—there were certainly two, aziditif.
sa
three—seats which, so far as I could judge,i presented
d, he would
very fair chance of success, and which, I
oblige the Government by contesting. Sir, to my surprise
Captain Carnegie showed on that occasion a hesitation
'On the two succeeding days
which I could not understand.
he showed not only hesitation but vacillation, and at the
that he didnot •
made it known intend
end of three days he
which he took office. (Hear.) I
to fulfil the conditions on
to say that on think it is hardly necessary for me
_intimating
Carnegie offered his resignation, and I
this intention, Capt.
think it is still less necessary for me to add that I at once
and immediately accepted
Carnegie
that resignation.. (Ministerial
cheers.) But, sir, I told Capt. on that occasion
last
that his resignation at the moment, at the eleventh
hour was in my opinion by no means a compensation for
his breach of the engagement into which he had entered.
(Renewed cheers.) Now, sir I will not undertake an ,
thing so painful as to impute to a gentleman of Captain
Carnegie's high social and professional standing, that he
deliberately and intentionally violated an honourable un-
derstanding ; there may be some explanation of the cir-
cumstances which is satisfactory to his mind ; but, sir,
I am bound to say this, that I am unable to reconcile
the course which Captain Carnegie took with the hon-
ourable engagement into which he had entered with
myself. (Cheers.) Sir, the right hon. gentleman in the
course of his reference to Captain Carnegie proceeded to
advert to circumstances which I confess seem to me to have
very little to do with the questions which he put to me. He
referred to rumours that I had offered the seat which was
vacant to Sir William Hoste, and afterwards to Admiral
Mundy. I pass over this part of what fell from the right
hon. gentleman with this simple statement, that a seat at
the Board of Admiralty being vacant it was absolutely ne-
cessary to fill it. I certainly did very much wish, for
reasons which I have already mentioned, that the gentle-
man who undertook to fill the office should also consent to
come into Parliament; but whether or not one officer or
another did accept that seat or did see reason to refuse it,
is a matter which I really think neither the right lion. gen .
(Loud
tleman nor the house has any right to inquire into. the
Ministerial cheers.) Well, sir, I have thus explained
exact circumstances connected with Capt. Carnegie iwill
now, with the permission of the house, give a similar ea-
planation planation with regard to Sir Richard Dundas. As soon was decided
as the dissolution of the' present Parliamentnichard Dundas. I
upon, I had a conversation with Sir
pointed out to him the disadvantage to which I have
'already referred as pressing on
the Board of Admiralty
in consequence
of no one of
fts naval members being I
mentioned to him two or
in the. House of Commons.
three seats for which
I thought, if he were disposed
-
he was likely to
to enter the House of Commons,
be elected, consider duri4g and I requested hinz to

the n(txt four-and-twenty hours whether he could cr
could not comply with the suggestion which
acl
khthadmme adaned.
Sir, th e next day Sir Richard Dundee ca b
the language which he held to
thatme—andllamnugu stargeme,arheihtheladt
it was :not the first time that he held
similar language to me on a similar occasion several months
ago—the language which Sir Richard °eDundas used was this
—that on reflection he was not willing to endeavour to enter
parliament for either of the a ate which I had mentioned to
him, but he recognised broadlya and distinctly the public
necessity which existed for one o. r more of the naval members
of the Board of Admiralty.
g a seat in the house. In-
deed, he said more ; he said he felt that he had no right to
Commons, decline to be in the House of and to stand in the
way of meeting
the necessity which he distinctly admitted;
that we ought to have naval members of the board in this
house, and that he begged. I would not allow any feelings
for him to prevent my filling up the board with naval offi-
cersho would come into parliament , and that rather than
a who
eany embarrassment or any difficulty to the Govern-
ment, he would place his seat entirely at my disposal.
(Hear, hear.) Well, so strongly did I feel the public ne-
cessity of having a naval member of the board in this houie
that although I arrived at the conclusion that I did with
very great regret on personal grounds, yet it was my inten-
tion to avail myself of the offer made in so handsome a manner
by Sir Richard Dundee, and to accept his resignation, with a
view of putting some other person in his place. (Cheers from
the Opposition.) Well, sir, a few days ago, circumstances
of a public nature, into which I de not feel at liberty to en-
ter, which were wholly unconnected with anything like party
politics, wholly unconnected with election matters, circum-
stances I say occurred within the last few days which made me
feel very strongly that it was not desirable at that moment for
the board to lose the services of so distinguished an officer
as Sir Richard Dundas. (Hear, hear.) I repeat that these
circumstances had nothing to do with party politics, and had
nothing to do with electioneering. I submitted these views
to Sir Richard Dundee, and expressed to him my wish not
to avail myself of the offer he had made, but to retain his
services at the board. (Hear, hear.) To that representation
Sir Richard Dundee acceded, and he does remain at the naval
board. (Cheers.) With reference to Sir Richard Dundas, I
only wish to add—and I add it because it is due to my own
feelings to do so—that throughout these communications the
conduct of Sir Richard Dundas was marked by that zeal
for the public service, and by that high sense of personal
honour, which always have distinguished, and which I am
sure 'always will distinguish that gallant officer— (cheers)
—and I beg to add, further, that these communications did
not interrupt for one single moment the friendly feeling
with which I have had the pleasure of acting with Sir R.
Dundee from the time when I first became connected with
him at the Admiralty. (Hear) The right hon. gentleman
asked me whether the vacancy caused by the resignation of
Capt. Carnegie is filled, and if so, by whom. Sir, that seat is
filled by Rear-Admiral Sir Henry Leeke. The right hon.
gentlemen has brought forward what he seems to consider a
very serious charge against Sir Henry Leeke. Indeed, he
appears to consider it a charge against me, and he told me
so on Saturday last. The charge is that Sir Henry Leeke
told the electors of Devonport that if he were returned
that place would have a share in the cadets and the per-
quisites now monopolised by Portsmouth. Now, in the
first place, I do not understand what is meant by this mo-
nopoly of the cadets and the perquisites. The "monopoly
of cadets" is absolute nonsense ; and as to perquisites, I
do not in the least know what the perquisites are. But,
sir, it is a point for me to consider—and t his is a point on
which I beg to give a broad, plain, distinct answer to the
right hon. gentleman—that up to the present moment I
have not had one word of
communication with Sir H.
Leeke of any sort whatever. If Sir Henry Leeke promised
cadetships which clearly he could not give, or promised
perquisites
which, so far as I know, have no existence, all
can say is, that such language was not authorised by me
directly or indirectly. If Sir Henry Leeke has made any
promises at Devonport of any sort whatever, I assure the
hwith touse, upon
ha (H
mY honour, that I have had nothing to do
ra. ear, hear.) Now, the next statement of
the right hon. gentleman was that Sir Henry Leeke, find-
ing that he did not get on well at Devonport, had reported
liinself to the First Lord and then gone on to Dover. Now
here again I beg to say that the right hon. gentleman is
entirely misinformed. it does appear that Sir Henry
Leeke has left Devonport and gone to Dover ;
be I know no more why he did so, or when
d so, than the right hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.)
I did not know that he had done so until I heard lately,
t.t° IV prise, that he was at Dover. (Opposition
""ngtesur r.) I assure the right hon. gentleman and the
house that in transitu from Devonport to Dover Sir
Henry Leeke did not report himself to the First Lord.
(Hear) hear.) Sir, I now beg to refer to a statement which
the right hon. gentleman has not inclueed in his question,
but which has been circulated elsewhere. It has been
stated that not only did I request Captain Carnegie and Sir
Richard Dundee to endeavour to obtain seats in Parlia-
ment, and threaten them with expulsion from the board if
they did dot comply, but I made a similar request, and
uttered a threat to a third member of the board. (No, from
Sir B. Hall.) I did not say that the right hon. gentleman
had made that statement, but that it had been made. Now
how I far attempted compulsion in the cases of Captain
Carnegie and Admiral Dundee I have already explained ;
and I beg to assure the house that there is no truth what-
ever in the rumours with regard to a third member of the
ward. I had in fact no communication on this subject with
a third member of the board, and none beyond what I have
already stated. The right hon. gentleman having alluded
to the intended resignation of Admiral Martin, I will
briefly advert to that subject. Sir, it is true that Admiral
Mart expressed an intention to resign his seat at the board
but it is also true that that intention had nothing what-
ever to do with a seat in Parliament, or with anything con-
nected with a seat in Parliament. (Hear, hear.) His
intention was founded solely on considerations of a personal
nature, into which Ido not feel at liberty to enter. It is
sufficient for me to say, that after a conversation which I
.had with him, Admiral Martin revoked the intention which
As had expressed. Sir, I have now answered the questions
which the right hon. gentleman put to me with regard
to the important matters to which he referred ; I
have done so with entire sincerity, and without any re-
serve ; and having given this reply, I beg to add that I feel
that I have done nothing of which I have reason to be
ashamed, or which I need have any hesitation in avowing
here or elsewhere in the most public manner. (Loud Mi-
nisterial cheers.)
Admiral DUNCOMBE said, having been alluded to by
the right hon. baronet, he wished to say a few words. It
was perfectly true that when the present Government ac-
ceded to office, the right hon. baronet did him the honour,
if an honour he might call it, to invite him to join the
Board of Admiralty. He said, "If an honour he might
call it," because, whether intentionally or not, the offer was
made in such a way that he was quite precluded from ac-
cepting it. (Laughter.) If it had been made in such a
raanner that he could have accepted it consistently with
What was due to himself, he would have done so. What
'were the facts of the case ? In 1852, when he was at the
Board of Admiralty for a short time, he consented to occupy
What was usually termed in that house the post of civilian
lord. Between that time and the early part of last year,
When the Government acceded to office, he rose to a higher
;al* in the service, and he felt therefore that he could no
longer accept a subordinate place at the board, or serve un-
der a junior officer. It was on that ground, and on that
ground alone that he declined to accept the offer of his
ht hon. friend, and he should never have breathed a syl-
lable on the subject if'the matter had not been alluded to as
it had been. As regarded the report of the committee of
18,53, to which the right hon. baronet the member for Mary-
lebone had referred, he begged to say that what the com-
mittee condemned was not the conduct of the board gene-
t-411Y, but that of the then Secretary to the Admiralty, the
late Mr. Stafford, who himself admitted that in his zeal he
atePPed beyond the bounds of pru. Considering that
that gentleman was now no more,dence it was, he thought, to be
regretted that the matter had been referred to. (Hear.)
r. B. OSBORNE said, considering that the First Lord
of M
the asa—_,,traity
deevourin had shown such laudable assiduity in en-
, gto deprive him of his seat for Dover—(laughter)
—he hoped he should be allowed to make a few observations.
the nib ast say that it appeared from the explanation which
—Qu'e had just heard, that, to adopt the language of the
gallant admiralwho had • t spoken, the sight hon. Bart.
had ills
"w•a- more zeal than prudence in meddling with elec-
eeneeri
two matters. Now this question resolved itself into
nee tZa first, there was the private consideration con-
right nth the attack made upon Captain Carnegie by the
side gentleman.; and next, there was the public con-
main
ems
tituted con-
of how long the Board of Admiralty was to re-
as it was then. With regard to the pri-
vate atcm,taeh,
Capt. hough he had but a slight acquaintance with
ki —"ePet he had sufficient acquaintance with him to
Lew that whatever that gallant officer undertook he was
prepared to o. told the
houee that he right hon. gentleman having
seats," w he offered Capt. Carnegie three "fairly eligible
and to name
48) he,
the three
bound to continue his narrative,
" fairly three seats which, in his opinion, were
the First Lord t it
(Opposition cheers Now he puto
of the Admiralty whether, when Capt. Car-
negie conseted to tak
which was theught seat
e his place at the board, the d
before his eyes was fairly eligible, and which was dangled
gard to which 'there not that borough of Midhurst with re-
- (Hear, hear.) Moreover, that house 9
had been some discussion in •
what c'reover, he would ask the right hon. gen-
tlemanreason he had t
Government borough ? to suppose
that Dover was a
himself aunt
(Laughter.) Perhaps he. could
had lately
given
uthat question. The right hon. gentleman
Dover to the brotteer appointment of inspector of packets at
Raving
or c
apt. of an electioneering agent in that town.
post to a gentle M'llwaine to retire, he had given his
tor this reason that
named Truscott ; and perhaps it was
eligible." he the a seat at Dover was " fairly
Sir J. PA.RINGTON '
man. Whoever might bellshed to correct the hon. gentle-
he forced Capt. M'llw • 18 authority, it was not true that
was understood). ' mit to retire. He was promoted (as
Mr. B. OSBORNE said C
plied for promotion, nor did hea:••
M'llwaine never ap -
he was informed, he remonstrated
wish it ; on the contrary, as
would leave Captain Carnegie to against the change. He
the right hon. gentleman, but hesettle his difference with
the first time that they had heard must say that that was
revelationsofpolitical
jobbing from a First Lord such
)—and'•r after those at the Admiralty—(hear,
_ revelations it was impossible that
'alas itrath_r.e_Parliamentcould allow the Admiralty to remain
rightwn (Opposition cheers.) On the eve ofwar—the
a
_tau gentleman darkly alluded to that subject—at a
;17437
orre:olie Government had just proclaimed
Channel uatracting the navy the neces-
and strength the to
of 4., e First Lord of the
to di ...state Admiralty was so
aPense with the ul things in Europe that he was other member of his
services of Admiral Dined ready
contest-a seat in that boszd who did not chooseaa, or of any
ins there, the co iwna°' to go and
untry wr Whatever might be the feel-
remain constituted as • —"" ut permit the Ad •
it wt. Admiralty to
the right hon. gentleros,„Thtlresent. (Cheers.) No ,
was the meaning of th;-ta"'ut_trected not to know whatw
Devonport with regard to therm which had come from
a-zeke. He had affected not tp7mtiaes., made by Sir Henry
monopoly of cadets, which was the what was meant by a
confession that he wanted a dry le What
'al:Prising after his
naval lord in that house, to mattneZrZ) in the shape of a
naval matters. (Oh, oh, from the lra -with regard to
eltia
Now, it so happened that Sir H. Le
benches.)
at Devonport, who was a contractor for
and he held out to the voters that if he --' VckYard,
cure his return for Devonport he would nid pro-
influence to induce the First Lord of the AdmiraltYnro hahive
the naval examinations which are held at Portsmouth,
exclusively at Devonport. That was the explanation
held
what was said with respect to the cadets. As to the Tble
about the term " perquisites," however that house might be
deceived by it, there was, he was sure, no man in Devonport
who did not well understand what was meant by it. (Cheers.)
It seemed that Sir Henry Leek() had left Devonport and
gone to Dover. (Hear, hear.) He thought the hon. and
gallant officer would not thank the right hon. gentleman
for having given
him that roving commission. He must
add that in
his opinion the country had some right to com-
plain that Sir H. Leeke, ha •been oh
having previouslythe re-
tired had been placed on the active list at 70 years of
tired list,
proceeding was, hebelieved, unexampled. For
ale. Such a
what services was Sir H. Leeke rewarded in that manner ?
Was it for what he had done at Devonport, or for what he
was expected to do at Dover ? (Laughter.) He must say
that whatever might have been the intention of the right
attempted to impute dialiouourable
hon. gentleman he had

motives to Capt. Carnegie. (" No, no " from the ministerial
benches.) The right hon.gentlemanhad not done so directly;
he dealt in insinuation—hinted a fault. Leaving the hon. and
gallant officer to state his difference with the right on. gen-
tleman he would now declare that he believed here was
scarcely a man in that house or out of it wh ) would put
any confidence in the Board of Admiralty a it was now
constituted, and if the gallant admiral ta, member for
Southwark would make a motion to inquire o the consti-
tion of that board, he (Slr. Osborne), who had always been
opposed to such motions before—(derisive laughter from
the Ministerial benches)—yes, he was opposed to them, be-
cause he believed the First Lords of the Admiralty did not
dirty their hands with jobbery—he would give that motion
his support.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I hope
the house will not allow personal details, which are perhaps
rather amusing, to divert its attention from a most impor-
tant principle in our parliamentary constitution. Ought the
Board of Admiralty to be professionally represented in the
house or not ? (Hear.) For my own part, I think it is due
to the honour and to the influence of Parliament—and I am
sure it is due to the Executive Government, from whatever
party it may have been formed—that the Board of Admi-
ralty should be professionally represented in this house, as
it has been for a long series of years. I can say from obser-
vation, during the existence of the present Government,
that, notwithstanding all the assiduity and ability of my
right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington), when questions relat-
ing to the administration and organisation of the navy have
been under discussion, great inconvenience has often arisen
for want of the presence of a naval member of the Board of
Admiralty in this house. There are before us many per-
sons eminent for their professional abilities, connected with
the naval service, and who are perhaps on account of such
eminence members of this house ; all the naval measures of
the Government are subject to their criticism ; and as a
Board of Admiralty which is represented only by civilians
cannot cope with such critics, erroneous notions are con-
veyed to the public mind. For more than twelve months
we liave suffered for want of a professional representative
of the Admiralty, and I do not think any one can be sur-
prised to find that the Government have taken the ear-
liest opportunity of remedying what they felt to be a
grievance to themselves, and believed to be very injurious
to the public interests. Long before the dissolution of Par-
liament was anticipated, her Majesty's Government bad
this point under their consideration, and even endeavoured
to find some opportunity of supplying the deficiency under
which they have so much suffered. I‘l y right hon. friend the
First Lord of the Admiralty has expressed his regret that
what passed between himself and Captain Carnegie was not
reduced to writing. Believing them both to be men of
honour, I cannot say that I share in that regret—(hear,
hear)—and I believe that when their statements come to be
compared it will be found that there is no great difference
between them. lam bound to say, having the honour of
Captain Carnegie's acquaintance, it is by an accident com-
pletely in my power, il it were necessary, to substantiatethe
statement of my right hon. friend. It so happens that soci-
ally, and not in any way connected with my official position,
Captain Carnegie sought a conversation with me. He then
expressed his extreme gratification in returning to public
life, and told me he had accepted office with the distinct
understanding of entering Parliament on the first opportu-
nity ; and he further stated that he looked forward with great
interest to assisting me in the House of Commons, and to
assisting the Board of Admiralty in those particular duties in
which it required aid. (Cheers.) I had much conversation
with Capt. Carnegie on that occasion, and every statement he
made to me completely sanctioned the statement made by my
right hon. friend, a statement which I do not think Captain
Carnegie will question. I have thought it my duty to call
the attention of the house to the very important principles at
stake, that it might not be diverted from them by the lively
comments of the hon. gentleman who still represents Dover.
(Loud laughter.) Ido entreat the house, whatever may
pass as to details on this discussion, I do entreat them not
to be induced by party feeling to sanction the principle that
it is not expedient for the public service that the Admiralty
should be represented professionally here. I do not know
anything which would do more to diminish the influence of
the House of Commons in naval affairs. I hardlyknow what
would have a greater tendency to establish an inefficient
administration than a permanent board of naval officers. I
am quite sure that the efficiency of that administration is
best promoted by those changes which our constitutional
forms promote, and that without those changes the Board
of Admiralty would soon become in its practice much behind
the spirit of the times. Sir, I trust the house will feel on
reflection that my right hon. friend has only done his duty
in endeavouring to place the administration of the Admi-
ralty on its proper basis. (Loud cheers) I will touch but
slightly on the grievances of the hon. member for Dover
(Mr. B. Osborne). He wanted to know what ground we
have for considering Dover a Government borough. We
have no idea that Dover is a Government borough; we
know that a Lord of the Admiralty taking his seat there
would take an independent seat. We only think that there
must be some sympathy between a port and a distinguished
naval officer, as we know there have been sympathies before
between Dover and a gentleman who was connected with
the Admiralty. (Laughter and cheers.) Dover may be,
and I believe is, completely independent; but Dover once
elected a Secretary to the Admiralty—(cheers)—and, a for-
tiori, it is not impossible that it might elect a naval Lord
of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.) I can add that I have
a personal acquaintance with Sir Henry Leeke. I have
always heard that he was a very distinguished man, and I
must say that, having seen him, he did not give me the idea
that he was of the age of 70. One thing must be admitted,
that he showed great activity, for he seems to have been at
Dover and Devonport on the same day. (Laughter and
cheers.) I believe that in so doing Sir H. Leeke is only
modelling his career on that of a more distinguished prede-
cessor. lam informed—perhaps not correctly, but certainly
with as much correctness as has characterised many state-
ments to-night—that the hon. gentleman the present dis-
tinguished memberfor Dover did at the last election first
appear for Devonport. (Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE—I was asked to appear, but refused.
(Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon.
member must at least admit that there was some founda-
tion for my statement, which is perhaps more than can be
said for many other statements made in the course of the
present debate. (Cheers.) I will not attempt to say what
may be the fate of the coming contest. I will only say
that if Sir H. Leeke should, in a future Parliament, repre-
sent Dover, I hope that the hon. gentleman will find a seat
elsewhere. (Laughter and cheers.)
Sir G. GREY said the real question was whether the
First Lord of the Admiralty was acting in accordance with
his duty in placing one, two, or three seats before the naval
lords, and insisting upon their sitting for the one or the other
of them. But his reason for rising was to say a word or
two for the gallant officer to whom allusion had been made.
He had known Capt. Carnegie for very many years, and after
the statement made by the right hon. gentleman opposite
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer), that Capt. Carnegie had
acted inconsistently with his engagement, he felt bound to
say that he considered Capt. Carnegie as incapable of such
a course as the right hon. gentleman himself. He had ex-
pected that the right hon. gentleman would have given a
different explanation of the statement made by Sir J. Pak-
ington. He trusted that before this matter dropped the
right hon. gentleman would give some further explanation
in exculpation of Capt. Carnegie.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to know whether Admiral Mar-
tin had left the Admiralty, and what was his reason for so
doing.
Lord C. HAMILTON would make one observation with
reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for Dover
(Mr. B. Osborne) on the subject of Capt. M'llwaine. The
hon. member said that the gallant captain was forced to
give up his post at Dover. It so happened that his militia
regiment was for some time quartered at Dover, and he
then made the acquaintance of Capt. M•llwaine, and that
gentleman pressed him again and again, as the greatest
private favour, to write to his right hon. friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty to get him removed from Dover.
(Loud cheers.) He stated that the peculiar softness and
mildness of the climate did not agree with his wife's health
—(hear, hear)—and he (Lord C. Hamiliton) understood
that the gallant gentleman had previously made an appli-
cation to his right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) on the
subject. (Cheers.)
Sir E. PERRY (who was received with loud cries of
"oh") said that, in justice to his hon. friend the member for
Dover—(oh, and laughter)—he would say that that which
appeared to be a contradiction in the noble lord was not
really so. (Laughter.) Captain M'llwaine had, as he (Sir
E. Perry) was informed by connexions of his, complained
that, being removed from Dover, he was put on the retired
list. That was the real ground of the gallant gentleman's
complaint. He (Sir E. Perry) would also refer to the man-
ner in which the boroughs to which the right hon. gentle-
men (Sir J. Pakington and Mr. Disraeli) opposite had
alluded were treated. It certainly appeared to him that the
Government had been pressing gentlemen to come forward
for seats in that house, offering them the office of naval lord
as a reward for their success. The house was aware of the
conduct of Lord Derby's Government in 1852—conduct
which he did hesitate to denounce as most flagrant. (Hear,
hear.) There was then an abuse of patronage and power
such as had not been for more than a hundred years before.
The previous Whig Governments had succeeded in putting
a stop to the corruption in the dockyards. (Oh, oh, and
loud laughter.) But all that was altered by the Govern-
-1 ment of Lord Derby. On the present occasion the Govern-
ment seemed to be following a similar course. They found
Sir H. Leeke, a junior lord of the Admiralty, going down
to Devonport, and then stating as a reason for his election
that he would exert himself to have the Government
patronage removed from Portsmouth to that place. (Hear,
hear.) He must say that the conduct of the First Lord of
the Admiralty resembled more that of the Secretary to the
Treasury or Government whip, than that of the first
Minister for naval affairs.
Colonel NORTH rose to confirm what had been stated
by Lord C. Hamilton with regard to Captain M'llwaine.
The hearsay statements of the last speaker were therefore
at variance with the facts of the case.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE—I do not wish to go into what
takes place within the walls of the Admiralty, but on the
eve of a general election I will say a few words on the sub-
ject before us. I have always thought that the house was
chosen for the purpose of representing the people. But now
we are told that it is necessary that the Board of Admiralty
should be represented, and that there are certain boroughs
in the pocket of the Admiralty for that purpose. It has been
represented that there should bea naval officer here to assist
the First Lord of the Admiralty ' • would it not be a common •
sense view of the question to have a naval officer for the
First Lord of the Admiralty ? You would not then want a
person to assist him. If you are to have a naval officer to
assist, it would be better to have him seated ex officio. Here
you are to represent the people. There is no reason, how-
ever, why there should not be a naval lord. The right hon.
baronet might then go back to the quarter sessions which
he adorned for so long a time. lam quite sure that he
must know more of magisterial duties than he does of the
navy. These are important times, and we ought to have at
the head of the Admiralty a person conversant iwith naval
affairs. I am quite sure, if the right hon. baronet does
retire, that England will still remain, as she nowis, mistress
of the ocean.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Perhaps the house will allow me
a word in explanation with reference to what fell from a
gallant admiral (Duncombe) a short time since. He referred
to my having offered him a seat at the Board of Admiralty.
I was never so astonished in my life as when I heard him say
that I offered it on terms which made it impossible for him
to accept it. I can only say I made that offer in terms which
believed, and certainly meant to be, most friendly. Speak-
i‘lig from mere memory, I believe I used the expression that
I ,-L hoped he would resume the seat which ho held under the
thist of the Duke of Northumberland "
alludes to el•
laiitiuspe.ll suppose that my hon. and gallant friend must
was not aware at the commencement that in that
Administration he held the fifth seat, which is usually occu-
thet_n_istake to him.
I suppose this is what my hon. friend
vibliutanl. certainly thought that I had already ex-
Plained
had ZaTtiDU:N.ICOMBE, in. explanation, said that what
case. He headnfraom his right hon. friend correctly stated the
fore never made
Sir DE L.
knowledge of the details
time attributed the mistake to want of
details of the Admiralty, and had there-
Ek7l,9implaint on the subject.
inquired when the re" (who was very indistinctly heard)
femme had been Th„,,_l)°,lt en the dockyards, to which re-
ference
the table. zraa ni.f,evenm4fa since, would be placed
‘4,um attentam. to the largo number

of troops in India, and asked if it was in contemplation to
send out any addition to tho artillet y there ?
Lord STANLEY was rmderstoc tc say that the report
in question had been some what dell Lyed, but would be laid
on the table before the close of the :session. The noble lord
intimated also that it wats not into nded to send any more
artillery to Indla.
After some further conversation the bill was read a second
time

EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This bill was read a sec and time.
LIEN AND FREIGHT BILL.
The house went into committee in order to pass a resolu-
tion upon which this bill might be framed.

In committee,
Lord LOVAINE explained that the law was at present
in an unsatisfactory state as to the rights of shipowners.
The object of the bill was to pass a general act which
should give all the powers at pi sent conferred by local acts,
without superseding the latter . It was not intended to pro-
ceed further than printing the during the present session.
The resolution was agreed to, and the house resumed.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS (No. 2) BILL.
The order for the second n. ta ding of this bill was then dis-
charged, and the bill withdrawn.

THE B ALLOT.
Mr. H. BERKELEY, in ria ing to move for leave to bring

in a bill to cause the votes of Pa rliamentary electors of Great

Britain and Ireland to be taker L by way of ballot, said that

the first thing that would probt Lbly strike the house with re-
spect to his motion would be tL tat the present was rather ah
inopportune time for bringing i t forward. The question had
already been started on a previc ins night, and a partial divi-
sion had taken place, but no ar, gument had been used, nor

if there had would it have been listened to at such a time.

(Hear.) And yet the present appeared to him to be an
extremely proper time for bringing- the question before the
house, or rather, he should say, the country, which was so
soon to be appealed to on the whole question of the franchise.
Once before, and once only, had he stood in the same position
as regarded this question as that in which he stood at the pre-
sent moment, and that was just previously to the election of
1852, when Parliament was about to be dissolved under cir-
cumstances similar to those which were now about to send
them all back to their constituents. Then humbly and

feebly, but zealously, did he lay before the house the state
of things which would arise in consequence of the coming

dissolution. He told them that the country was about to

be plunged into a saturnalia, in which every vicious prin-
ciple would be encouraged, when intimidation would stalk
and drunkenness would stagger through the land, and
when in consequence the electors of the country would
stand before the world as a set of debased and degraded
voting machines, That prophecy of his was fully realised
by the election that followed. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, so
bad was the state of things in 1852, that even Lord Aber-
deen admitted that the condition of our electoral system
was such as that no man could be enamoured of it. But
exactly the same influences prevailed then which were
threatened now. The two great factions of the State had
had a dispute and a division which had terminated in
favour of one of them. The objects of the assault
had been Whitehall and Downing-street, and both
attack and defence had exhibited extraordinary valour
and perseverance, but the result must be a dis-

solution of Parliament, and he asked the house

whether that dissolution would not place the
country in exactly the position which it held in the year
1852 ? The result of the election of 1852 was, that the house
determined upon doing something, but was equally bent
upon doing nothing effectually. They appointed a committee
unfortunately the usual scapegoat in that house, and that
committee investigated the corruption which had been made
so manifest at the election. It finished with a report ; and,

strange to say, that report was acted upon by the house.

But how was it acted upon ? By the production of Corrupt
Practices at Elections Prevention Act, which in his opinion
should have been called the Corrupt Practices Encourage-
ment Act. Under that act, intended to prevent, but which
really encouraged corrupt practices, they were now going
to the eountry. Let them read the statement in the Times of
that morning, that already £50,000 a day had begun to be
spent on electioneering. (Hear, hear.) They should be told
that the money would be spent honourably by the candi-
dates ; but would the people of England believe them ?
Such was the state of things under which he was then ad-
dressing the house, and for the twelfth time, annually and
successively was he there to urge upon the house the consi-
deration of the means by which alone they could hope to
escape the giant evils of their electoral system. If they
should not be able altogether to remove the stumbling
block of bribery, they might at least alleviate the evils which
were such a scandal and a disgrace to the electors. He
congratulated such honourable friends of his as had always
supported the ballot upon the position in which the question
now stood. It had been demanded in the house and out of
the house, and was that question of reform which above all
others was most sought for by the people, and was more
earnestly demanded by them than any other. He might
refer to the gratifying fact that the majority had steadily
increased year by year, until at the present moment there
were 238 members who had recorded their votes in favour
of the ballot during the present Parliament. In the elec-
tion which was approaching, he believed that the question
would be urged upon every candidate, and therefore he
trusted the house would bear with him while he endea-
voured to dispel certain delusions, and to correct certain
fallacies which had been indulged in by those who opposed
secret voting, and advocated the present system. He had
before stated that the constituencies one and all cried out
for the ballot, and he &pled he was not then over sanguine
in expressing his earnest hope that many leading statesmen
in that house who had hitherto turned their back upon it
would at no distant period consent to become its advocates.
(Hear.) When the question was first handed over to him
by Sir Henry Ward, and for a long time after, it was
treated with a sort of sneering contempt, and more espe-
cially by the Times newspaper. They were then told that
the ballot came in with green peas and early gooseberries,
but now they saw leading articles by the yard arguing seri-
ously against the proposed system, articles which were prin-
cipally remarkable for the violence of their tone and the
weakness of their reasoning. 'What he complained of gentle-
men who opposed him was, that they wore a mask when
arguing the question, that was to say they ostensibly op-
posed the ballot on grounds which were widely different
from those which really influenced their conduct. The
hon. member here quoted at some length one of the Times
articles against the ballot, the purport of which was, that
as lords, farmers, superior shopkeepers, and the clergy must
always govern those they employed, the ballot would be
liable to create differences between masters and men, and to
originate conspiracies amongst the latter to oppose the wants,
opinions, and wishes of their natural superiors. Here, then,
he said, was the true cause of opposition stated, but was
there any hon. member who would propound such arguments
to the house. If this were sound constitutional doctrine,
he wondered what the legislature of this country had been
doing for so many years. They had been defining the duty
of the electors to be to vote freely and indifferently, uninti-
midated and unpurchased ; and now they were suddenly
told that they were so many cyphers, and must always look
to their superiors to govern and direct them. This was a
most despicable style of reasoning. There was nothing like
it in fact except the passage in the " Tempest," in which
twe drunken sailors were regulating the government of an
island. Trinculo was to be the governor of the island, but
Stephano was to be viceroy over him. In the same way it
appeared the electors were to exercise the franchise, but the
squires, and millowners, and shopkeepers, were to be vice-
roys over them. A newspaper might venture to propound
such a doctrine, but it was language which should only be
addressed to slaves, and no candidate would dare to pro-
pound it to a constituency of 100 members. (Hear, hear.)
Having quoted and criticised cote of Mr. S. G. Osborne's
letters, the hon. member contended that the arguments of
the rev. writer against the ballot were unsound, and that
it would be a protection and not an inconvenience to small
tradesmen. Mr. Mill contended that open voting was ne-
cessary to contend against the excessive selfishness of the
electors of 1838, but he (Mr. Berkeley) could tell Mr. Mill
that secret voting was necessary to contend against the cor-
ruption practised by the candidates of the same period. He
remembered Grote's committee on the malversation of the
elective franchise thirty years ago, when bribery, treating,
and intimidation were proved to prevail to a frightful ex-
tent. Then, again, at the election of 1837, when her Majes-
ty came to the throne, there were 120 election petitions, and
so late as 1852 special legislative interference was found to
be necessary. He need not go further than the Notting-
hamshire and Northamptonshire cases, in which the elec-
tors were driven by their landlords like sheep to the poll.
And were they now to be told that the squirearchy and the
nobilityhad become more pure and virtuous ? He contended
he had made out a case whicfi completely upset that of Mr.
Mill. A right hon. gentleman opposite, a friend of his, for
whom he entertained great respect (Mr. Walpole), on a
former occasion expressed an opinion that if the ballot were
established personation and fraud would be perpetrated
under the cover of secrecy, and that there would be no means
of detection. He need scarcely, he was sure, reply to such
a charge against the ballot, nor would he had it not been
advanced by one he so highly respected. But really such
an accusation was ridiculous. Under a system of secret
voting, if proper securities were adopted—and he did not
propose that the ballot should be adopted without such se-
curities—personation would be as easily detected as under
open voting. They did not want to know for whom the
man voted in order to detect personation. All that they re-
quired to know was that he did vote. If he presented him-
self at the polling place, and described himself as so and so
of such a place, and desired to vote, where was the differ-
ence in the matter of detection between that and open
voting ; and if the man passed himself off for somebody else,
and voted as somebody else, what difficulty could there be
of detecting or punishing him for the fraud afterwards ? He
should say that the mode of proceeding should be that at
the close of the election the ballot-box would be counted,
and a return would be made ; and if the return were ob-
jected to, the record of the voter would be kept a certain
time, to be forthcoming before an election committee, or
other tribunal, for examination. It was very far from his
intention to prevent an appeal in the event of a false elec-
tion, and, of course, in providing for the appeal, there must
be the necessary machinery for bringing forward evidence.
A great deal of froth had been poured forth about the ballot
in Australia, without one tangible objection being advanced
against the mode of voting there in operation. It had been
said by one of the candidates at a late election there that
secrecy was not effectually preserved by the mode in which
the votes were taken. Now he (Mr. H. Berkeley) had a
letter from Mr. Wilson, the proprietor of the Melbourne
Arg us, which was the Times of Australia, contradicting
this statement, and adding, that he was prepared to prove
before any committee, or other tribunal of inquiry, that so
far from the ballot having failed in Australia it had per-
fectly succeeded, that secrecy of voting was for all prac-
tical purposes secured, while bribery and corruption were
practically put an end to, and that the introduction of the
ballot in Australia was a brilliant success, which chal-
lenged comparison with any. political experiment of re-
cent times. On one occasion when he (Mr. H. Ber-
keley) brought this subject under the notice of the house,
an hon. gentleman, the member for Salisbury, stated that
the result of the ballot in Australia had been to introduce
into the Assembly most improper persons, and that most
blackguardly scenes were in consequence frequently
enacted. there. Thisl statement had, it appeared, given
umbrage on the other side of the water, especially as
coming from a man who was stated to have been a suc-
cessful squatter, and Mr. Henry Downing, the mayor of