The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-31 00:00:00

beginning of a serious innovation, fraught with danger to
the country. (Opposition cheers.) It might, perhaps, be
enough for me to say that not one syllable had been adduced
from any speech of mine to sustain that belief. Whether
such be the desire of the hon. member for Birmingham I
know not, but it is not mine. (Some interruption.) lam
sure that hon. gentlemen opposite will permit me to state
in a few words the view I take of the proposal of her Ma-
jesty's Government. We are not now at the beginning, but
at the accomplishment and consummation of a great series
of legislative changes. We are not introducing novel prin-
ciples, but working up the residue of great and beneficent
operations introduced by great men, whose names will ever
live in the grateful memory of the country, and who ad-
vanced them up to a certain point and then handed them
over to us simply and in all humility, but likewise in all
fidelity, to complete. I confess that, in my opinion, the days
of what are called by their friends comprehensive, and by
their enemies ambitious, budgets are gone by. They began
in 1842 and 1845 with Sir R. Peel, who had a great work to
do, and who set about it like a workman equal to his busi-
ness. Then came in 1852 the budget of the right hon. mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire, who quite justifiably in his
own point of view, though I did not concur with him, pro-
duced an extensive and comprehensive new financial plan.
In 1853 I was myself responsible for a plan of the same
kind, and again last year, taking the opportunity presented
by the treaty of France, we introduced a measure which in
our view went to complete the whole of that series of changes
which had been initiated, though not entirely, in modern
times by Sir R. Peel. Therefore, it is not the commence-
ment, but the conclusion of our commercial legislation that
we are now proposing, and viewed as the conclusion I put
fearlessly to the house the proposal for the repeal of the
paper duty as being one as well and as firmly founded in all
the sound principles of finance and of industrial economy
as any proposal that during the course of the last 20 years
was ever submitted to and met the approval of Parliament.
(Cheers.) I heard with deep regret last night the speech
of the right hon. baronet the member for Tamworth, though
not indeed with the same regret as I heard some other re-
marks made by the hon. baronet the member for the West
Riding. I hope that the lion. member for the West Riding
will express his regret before the conclusion of the debate—
(laughter, and cries of " hear")—for having, with or with-
out premeditation, spoken of the American Government as
a great Republican bubble. (A cry of " Hear.") lam
sorry to hear that phrase cheered by a single member, and
had hoped that that was the first and last time we should
hear any member allude in a jeering way to the tremendous
calamity which threatens to fall upon a great country—
(cries of "oh," and cheers)—but Tdo not believe that the
hon. member for the West Riding had any intention to
speak in such a spirit. With regard to the right hon. baro-
net the member for Tamworth, I cannot express the regret
with which I heard it stated by him that this measure is
one which appears to aim at some extensive substitution of
direct for indirect taxation and is not a measure of free
trade. The recollection of the long years during which I
sat by the side of one in whose memory the hon. baronet is
entitled to feel the deepest interest led me to a different con-
clusion, and I think it would puzzle the hon. baronet to draw
a distinction in princip 'e between this last Excise duty which
we are now proposing to remove and those other Excise
duties, not one whit more objectionable in principle or more
oppressive in practice, which his honoured father was the
instrument of repealing. (Hear, hear.) I certainly had
hoped that in the work of removing this description of legis-
lation from the statute-book we might have had the advan-
tage of the hon. baronet's assistance; but, if not, we must
still appeal to the convictions and experience of this house,
and until I see the contrary, I never will believe that this
house, after the eleventh hour, will withdraw the last hand
from the work it has hitherto carried through with firmness
and courage ; and on the present occasion I anticipate a de-
cision which shall be faithful to the spirit of the former acts
of the Legislature. (Cheers.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN rose to explain. He said—The right
hon. gentleman has commented in somewhat severe terms
on the observations I ventured to utter. He said that I
stated that previous surpluses had been actually in hand,
but he omitted to add some important words, on which the
whole meaning depended. I said that formerly the surplus
had been either actually in hand, or in some other form
equally tangible and secure. (Hear, hear.) I put it to the
sense of the committee what is the plain meaning of those
words ? (Hear, hear.) I did not speak in childlike igno-
rance, as the right hon. gentleman seems to think, of the
arrangements by which the surplus in hand is devoted to
certain purposes, but I meant to convey this meaning, that
it is not justifiable to repeal permanent and safe taxation—
(oh, oh, and cheers)—except on the faith of a surplus, which
the experience of the previous year has shown that we can
depend on. (Hear.) I went on to say---(cries of " Ohl"
and cheers)—that it was unprecedented tor a Chancellor of
the Exchequer to close the year with a deficit of more than
£2,500,000, and then to propose to remit taxation on the
faith of a sur plus purely founded on speculative calculations.
(Hear.) The right hon. gentleman takes exception to that,
and quotes against me the case of the budget of the present
Home Secretary in 1857. If I was speaking of any one for
whom I had a less unfeigned respect than I have for the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should say that to adduce that
example is trifling with the sense of the committee. (Hear.)
For what was that year ? It was the year when we returned
to a peace establishment from the great expenditure of the
Crimean war. (Hear, hear.) I repeat the challenge I
made to the Chancellor of tne Exchequer, to show in a year
of peace a case in which any Finance Minister has closed
the year with such a deficiency, and has proposed to remit
taxation on the face of a surplus so purely speculative as
the present. (Cries of "Hear, hear," and "Divide 1")
Grave charges have been brought against me. (Cries of
" Divide !" Chair 1") The right hon. gentleman has seen
fit to renew the observations which in an early part of the
evening were made by the noble lord the member for the
city of London. At that time I rose and offered an expla-
nation of the remarks to which the right hon. gentleman
has referred. If I might be allowed to form an opinion of
the sentiments of the Committee from the manner in which
they received my explanation, I believe it was perfectly
satisfactory. (Cheers.) The explanation which the right
hon. gentleman asks has, therefore, already been made and
has been thoroughly accepted ; and I now leave it to the
fairness of the committee to judge between the right hon.
gentleman and myself. (Cheers, and cries of "Divide !")
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I am glad the hon. baronet oppo-
site has not complied with the suggestion of the right hon.
gentleman that he should express regret for one of the best
and most effective speeches I have ever heard. (Hear,
hear, and "Divide 1") At this late hour I will not inter-
fere between the house and the division. I will, however,
claim their attention for a few moments, as I believe I am
almost the only member of the house who has not yet
spoken on the Budget. (A laugh.) My reason for now
rising is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the
course of his speech, put a question which I think it is in
my ower to answer. Tho right hon. gentleman com-
plainped that the present duties on tea and sugar had been
described as "War Duties," and he asked who was the
author of the phrase. To that question I believe I can
give an answer. In 1857, in one of our debates, one of
the speakers said, " It is almost matter of good faith; that
when next remissions of taxation were made, the duties
on tea and sugar, which were, in fact, war duties, should
be reduced." (Cheers.) The speaker added that there
could be no greater claim for a reduction of taxation
than on those articles which entered so largely into the
consumption of the people. (Hear, hear) Who spoke
these words ? The noble lord the present Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs. (Cheers.) Therefore the author of the
phrase "War Duties," as applied to the duties ontea and sugar,
of which the right hon. gentleman complains, was toe noble
lord his colleague, to whom I refer him. (Hear, hear.) I
confess I have heard with extreme surpriseany reference to
the Flint shire election. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentle-
man took part in that election, and also in the same election
two years ago. If there is a roan in this house from whom
I did not expect to hear any reference to the Flintehire elec-
tion it is the sight hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear, and
divide.) I claim the right to say that I have listened to
these debates from first to last, and have heard nothing to
affect the opinion I entertain, and which the great majority
in this house and the country also bold with me, that this
budget is open to three fatal objections. The first is, that
the arrangement is one that is financially unwise. The se-
cond is, that the budget is no better than a party manoeuvre,
and has been arranged with a view to the interests of party,
and not of the country. Lastly, I am of opinion that this
budget does involve unnecessary offence, if not insult, to
the House of Lords. (Oh I) The House of Lords, however,
I have no doubt, will treat that offence with the contempt
it deserves. (Oh 1) I maintain that the House of Lords
has never objected to repeal the paper duties. they only
objected to reduce the resources of the country. (Oh 1) If
hon. members will refer to the speech of the Earl of Derby
they will find in a distinct statement that he agrees in
thinking that the paper duty is an objectionable impost,
that its maintenance is a mere matter of time, and that
whenever the state of the finances renders it desirable he
is prepared to repeal the paper duty. The right hon. gen.
tleman has spoken of my right hon. friend (Mr. Disraeli;)
as being unable to resist the temptation of explaining away
the part ho had taken in 1858. But the part taken by my
right hon. friend requires no explanation. Ho held th e
same language then that the Earl of Derby held last year.
We were parties to a resolution, and we thereby acknow-
ledged that it was right to repeal the paper duty whenever
the financial state of the country would permit. Whet i
the right hon. gentleman imputes to us that we are incorn•
sistent in proposing to repeal the tea duties, whereby yea
reduce the revenue by £200,000 more than he proposed, ray
answer is to be found in an extract from another speech by
the noble lord (J. Russell). He was then an independent
member of the Opposition. In 1857 the noble lord said he
was sure that a reduction of the duty on tea to ls. pr lb.
would be followed by an increased consumption tb.at would
soon bring up the revenue to its former amount. (Hea
This is an answer to the charge of inconsistency. Lord[
J. Russell. -I never said the revenue would be made up
one year.] No ; (but I adopt the language of the noble
y ars will be ent )rely
lord, and say that the duty
interesd th d
made up. (Hear, hear.) lir:llf.leevittha:tofetthyhee
ocGnooeunvestornry)iitiahennedty
ought to have considered the
tioosnatorts of the ma sses
wouldnot the ehav have interests
rep e ofal e d
tpartyh e d;u t
iae an d bah
whin Lead I tm,fe of war vere
bal'ors e reasons I can not
put on the comforts of the pepptee,,repealing the
iduty n
17.
aa articlenvery sli
gwhich egorne ter!
concur in the proposition of the Government. (Cheers. )
Lord PALMERSTON.—Sir, I cannot begin the very f 'ow
words which I shall feel it my duty to submit to the hot tse
on the present motion without expressing the satisfaction.'
feel, and which I am sure is participated in by all preset it,
at seeing again within these walls my hon friend the mem -
ber for Rochdale, returned after rendering those valuably
services—(oh 1 and hear, hear)—which he has performed
for his country—(renewed cries of ' oh l' and hear, hear)—
and restored to that health which I am sure even those who
differ from him in politics are happy to see him enjoying.
(Cheers.) Now, Sir, the hon. member for Norfolk has
asked me a question which ho has repeated for the second
time, and I presume it will be a question put every fort-
night till the end of the session. (Laughter.) lam happy
to be able to answer that questioninthaendsamheeanwo)rdTs
hine
which I answered it before. (Laughter
hon. member asks me whether there is anything in the
present state of affairs on the continent of America which
induces me to think it will be necessary to apply to this
house to increase the armaments either by land or sea. I
stated to the hon. gentleman that I saw nothing in the
events now taking'place in the United States which was
likely to 'lead to those consequences. The hon. member
asks me again whether those events in America are likely
materially to afect the Customs and Excise duties of this
country. The best answer which I can give him on this
point is to state the fact that during the eight weeks end-
ing last Saturday the produce of the Customs Dad Ei4eio

and Stamps, the fixed revenue of the country, was £.500,000
more than in the corresponding period before those oc-
currences. (Cheers.) Judging, therefore, of the future
from the past, I do not think we have need to be under any ,
anxiety on the subject. (Hear, hear.) Passing from that
topic, I must observe that the state in which the house is
this evening is certainly a remarkable contrast to that which
the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire
stated to have been its condition on the occasion when the
vote on the paper duty was before taken. This certainly is
net a languid house; nor is the vote likely to be a sleepy
vole. (Laughter and cheers.) We are told that hon. mem-
bers have come down to give freely, and without reference
to party considerations, those votes which on mature re-
flection in their study they may be led to give on the repeal
of the paper duty. (Laughter.) Why, Sir, I dare say that
that is the case. (Renewed laughter.) At all events, the
vote of this night will be one remarkable for the manner in
which different conflicting opinions have, without any party
object whatever, been brought to concur in a single vote.
(Laughter and cheers.) We are going to have a vote
against the repeal of the paper duty by those who on for-
mer occasions voted against that repeal, and by those who
decidedly and enthusiastically voted for it. (Cheers and
laughter.) We are going to have the same vote given by
those who denied the existence of a surplus, and by those
who exhibited a wish to diminish the surplus which my
right hon. friend proposed as the result of the financial year.
We are going to have the same vote given by those who
advocated a repeal or remission on the duty on tea, by those
who on former occasions demanded a reduction of the Ex-
cise duties, and by those who supported a repeal of the
income ;tax. We are going to have the same vote given
by Freetraders and Protectionists. We are going to see
every variety of opinion merged into one common vote,
and we are told that this is not a party vote. (Hear,
hear.) We are told by the right hon. baronet who has just
spoken, and who has just censured what he calls a party
manceuvre, that there is nothing of party in this vote. In-
deed, on the contrary, we are assured by many of the hon.
members who have spoken in this debate that there is
nothing which hon. gentlemen opposite have at heart so
much as to maintain and support the existing Government.
(Laughter and cheers.) Well, sir, at last we shall come to
an end of this long debate—(hear)—and if we wanted any
authority for the opinion that this debate has lasted an un-
usual time, it is afforded us by the first sentence of the
speech of the right hon. baronet, who stated that he be-
lieved he was almost the only member of the hcuse who had
not spoken on the discussion. (Laughter.) Therefore, Sir,
I may be excused for saying this has been a long debate,
and that hon. gentlemen have had a full opportunity of
making up those independent opinions and uniting them in
one harmonious whole which are to characterise the divi-
sion to-night. (Laughter and cheers.) But I hope that, in
spite of this fortuitous concurrence of discordant atoms in
one united vote, hon. members will remember that we are
deciding a most important question of financial regulation;
that they will bear in mind all those arguments that have
been refuted by those who have spoken on this side of the
house, and will not be led away by the conflicting, and I
may say by the unfounded, arguments of those who have
spoken against the proposition of the Government. (Great
laughter and cheers.) Almost every one has concurred that
the paper duty is vicious and hurtful in itself. (No, no, and
hear, hear.) Gentlemen on the other side of the house have
argued, and confirmed that argument by their votes, that
this tax ought to be repealed on the earliest occasion on
wheh the finances of the country will allow of its repeal.
(Hear, hear.) It has been proved and admitted that the
tax is one which not only imposes a burden on the indus-
trial exertions of the country, but is promotive of impedi-
ments to any fresh operations in the particular branch of
trade on which it is levied. My right hon. friend has re-
minded the house that this is the last remnant of an objec-
tionable system of Excise duties ; that we are not inaugu-
rating any new system of finance, but only completing a
system which has been sanctioned by many of the most
competent authorities in former times as well as at the
present in all that relates to the commercial transactions of
the country. (Hear, hear.) 1 do, therefore, hope that no
extraneous matter—no question of party, independent of
the matter at issue, will affect the votes on the division
which is about to take place. Relying on the assurance
which has been given, that hon. gentlemen are going
to vete free from all party considerations, and on a full
and mature consideration of the case--and believing and
being convinced that the merits of the case are clear as the
sun at noonday—(laughter)—l confidently look to the
result of the division which is to decide the question on
which we are now about to pronounce our opinion. (Cheers.)
The committee then divided. The process of numbering
the votes occupied fully 20 minutes, during which the
greatest excitement prevailed. When the respective tellers
entered the house and having declared the numbers, upon
the clerk handing the total paper to Mr. Brand an outburst
of cheering occurred from the Ministerial side which lasted
for several minutes, upon the subsidence of which the
numbers were declared to be—
For the clause
Against
Majority for the Government
The other clauses and the schedules were then agreed to,
and the bill ordered to be reported to the house.
Colonel FRENCH called the attention of the house to
the statement made by the noble lord the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs ; that statement he considered prejudicial
to the honour and independence of the Irish members of
the house. (" Oh, oh.") The noble lord, he understood,
stated that a deputation. of Irish members had applied for
an interview with the Prime Minister on the subject of the
Galway contract. On the part of all the Irish members
with whom he had spoken, he declared that there was no
foundation for this statement. They had never thought of
asking an interview with the noble lord; and, under the
circumstances, he did not believe that any Irish members
would have attended such an interview. A certain indi% i-
dual, not representing the Irish members, did have a con-
versation with the noble lord at the head of the Govern-
ment ; he (Colonel Fi =oh) had asked him whether he had
made any statement to the noble lord that might compro-
mise the honour and independence of the Irish members,
and he (Colonel French) was authorised to state that the
report was wholly desitute of foundation. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said—l will answer the statement
of the hon, member instead of my noble friend, as what the
hon. gentleman has said is founded on a communication
made to me. My noble friend .did not state that any pro-
posal for a deputation had been authorised by the Irish
members. What passed I will state exactly as it occurred.
There is no use concealing names. Father—that is Mr.e—
Daly—(laughter)—came to me =Saturday, and urged many
reasons why the decision of the Government with regard
to the Galway contract should be rescinded. I stated to
Mr. Daly that I did not consider him authorised to represent
anybody, and declined to enter iota any discussion with
I him about the contract, as I did not consider him the am-
bassador of the Irish members in general, or of the Galway
Company in particular. I said it was a public question;
that the hon. member for Galway had given notice of a
motion on the subject, and that the question must be die-
cussed publicly in the House of Commons, not privately in
my room. (Cheers.) Mr. Daly said, if I would not dis-
cuss it with him would I do so with a deputation of Irish
members ? I said I did not see that it was a matter be-
tween me and the Irish members, but between the Govern-
ment and the Galway Company ; nor did I see what the
Irish members had to do with it more than to take part in
the discussion that must follow on the motion. (Laughter.)
Mr. Daly said I was mistaken, because the Irish members
must take some action on the subject. I said "Yes, tha ac-
tion will be on the discussion." (Cheers, and laughter.)
Well, Mr. Daly said, " That won't exactly do (laughter) ;
I wish to bring a deputation of Irish members to you on
Monday." But Monday I told him was the day appointed
for the Budget, and the Galway Contract is a different
question. (Laughter.) I said " There is no discussion on
Monday about the Galway contract. There is no reason
why I should receive a deputation on that day, and, more-
over, if I were to receive a deputation, I know already
everything they could say to me, and I can only tell them
what I tell you—namely, that it is a public question to
be discussed in the House of Commons, and not in a pri-
vate room in my home." (Hear, hear.) " Well, but,"
said Mr. Daly, "I am anxious that you should see them
on Monday, because they must take action on the subject
—(laughter)—and that action must be taken on the Mon-
day evening." (Renewed laughter.) "Oh," said I,
"I now understand you—(much laughter)—and when it
is put to me in that way I must, with all deference and re-
spect for the Irish members, entirely decline seeing any of
them." (Cheers.) So the matter ended, and that is what
I stated to my noble friend as well as to my right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ido not know
what authority Mr. Daly had for anything which he said,
or for his undertaking to bring me a deputation of Irish
members. (Hear.) My noble friend did not say that he
was authorised, and it is for Mr. Daly and the Irish mem-
bers to settle this point between them. (Cheers and
laughter.)
Col. DUNNE said that no one had a right to go to the
noble lord and act in his name, or in that, he believed, of
any other Irish member. (Hear.) However much he might
condemn the conduct of the Government in reference to the
Galway contract, he would have equally opposed the finan-
cial measures of the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the con-
tract had been continued. (Hear, hear.) He opposed those
measures because he had no confidence, and his constitu-
ents had no confidence in the right hon. gentleman. (Hear,
hear.)
The bill was then ordered to be reported, and the house
resumed.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
house adjourned at 20 minutes to 2 o'clock.

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LON DON : Printed and Published by =ADO YOUNG, of
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at THE Sure Office, No. 112,Strand,
in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the County of Middlesex
'i-tday, May 31, lem,