The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-19 00:00:00

IiVIPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY).
The Lon]) CIIINCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
The Duke of NORFOLK presented a petition from
Horsham, complaining of the decision of the Lords Justices,
and praying that Dissenters might be allowed to administer
trust funds of Grammar Schools.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE, the following bills
were read a second time :—Bagnelstown and Wexford
Railway, Belfast and County Down Railway, Bury St.
Edmunds Gas, Commercial Dock Acts Amendment, Cork and
Kinsale Junction Railway, Dublin and Drogheda Railway,
Dublin and Wicklow Railway, Gloucester and Cheltenham
Tramway ' - Aberdare and Great Northern and Western (of
Ireland) Railway ; Greenwich and South Eastern
Docks; Holyrood and Bangor Railway; Ipswich.
(Borough) Fishing ; Liverpool New Exchange Build-
ings ; Liverpool Sanitary • Madras Irrigation Canal
Company ; Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland ;
(Cavan to Clones), Midland Great Western Railway of
Ireland (Liffey Branch), National Fire and Life In-
surance Company of Scotland, Newcastle-under-Lyre
Burgesses Lands, Newry and Armagh Railway, Nor-
wich Corn Exchange, Norwich New Streets, People'
Provident Assurance Society, Pneumatic Post Company,
Queen Charlotte's Lying-in Hospital, Railway Clearing
System, Scarborough Gas, Standard Life Assurance
Society, Thames Watermen and Lightermen, Tralee and
Killarney Railway, Trinity-House, Leith ; Ulster Rail-
way, and Victoria (London) Docks.
THE CLOCK TOWER.
Lord CAMPBELL complained of the tardy manner in
which the works connected with the Clock Tower were
prosecuted. He thought that such circumstance was
a standing disgrace to the gave
notice that on an early day he should p ut a question to her
Majesty's Government as to the time in which it was ex-
pected the works would be completed.
COPYHOLD CONVEYANCE.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from
Mr. Fawcett respecting the present state of copy-
hold conveyance. The noble and learned lord said
the law on the subject was in a very defective
state, and entailed great loss and injury upon the owners
of land. He therefore thought it would be highly desir-
able to pass a law which would remedy the grievance so
generally complained of ; and with this view he hoped
shortly to introduce a measure with that object.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was impossible at
that moment to discuss the provisions of the noble and
learned lord's bill, as it was not before their lordships, but
the remarks that he had addressed to the house would re-
ceive the best consideration of the Government. Ho had
however alluded to the Government bill, which, to a certain
extent, related to the subject, but he thought it an incon-
venient practice to speak on complicated legal questions
in an indefinite and vague manner.
EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND.
The Earl of AIRLIE asked her Majesty's Government
whether it was their intention during the present session
to introduce a measure for the improvement of the system
of education in Scotland. The noble lord addressed
a few observations to their lordships, in which he allluded to
the state of the schools in Scotland, to the very low salaries
paid to schoolmasters, and to the cumbrous machinery
which had to be put in motion to obtain the dismissal of a
schoolmaster who had shown himself incapable to properly
discharge his duties.
Thhe Earl of DERBY said it was desirable that the
salaries of schoolmasters should be increased, but whenever
the sum was introduced there was so much difference of
opinion that up to the present time the point remained
unsettled. He could not at the present time say the Go-
vernment were prepared to introduce a bill on the subject,
although he should be much pleased if a moderate mea-
sure could be framed. He could only say that his learned
friend the Lord Advocate was to communicate with the
heritors, and if he should be enabled to bring
forward a bill it would afford him much
pleasure. At the present moment the only answer he could
give the noble earl was, that Government would give the
subject their most earnest attention.
Their lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS—CYESTERDAY.
The SPEAYZEt took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. WHITESIDE took the oaths and his seat for the Uni-
versity of Dublin.
PETITIONS.
Several petitions were presented praying for the repeal of
the duty on paper; that persons employed in the suburban
and provincial districts should be placed on the same footing
with reference to superannuation as the employees in the
General Post-office in the metropolis ; for the admission of
Dissenters to the trusteeship of Grammar Schools and
other foundations • and in favour of Parliamentary Reform.
SMITHFIELD MARKET.

At the request of Mr. WALroLE,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE postponed till Monday next the
following question, of which he had given notice—Whether
anything decisive had been determined on with regard to
the vacant site of the late Smithfield Market, if so, when it
was likely a decision on the subject would be arrived at by
her Majesty's Government P
THE INDIAN LOAN. _ _

Mr. ROBERTSON asked the Secretary of State for
India whether, in the event of a loan being authorised to be
raised in this country, any authority that might have been
given to Lord Canning to raise money by loan or deben-
turesl at six per cent. per annum, would be at once can-
celled; and whether the Five per Cent Loan, now opened
Calontta,in would be closed ?
Lord STANLEY said that he would postpone his reply
to the question until the house went into committee on the
Indian Loan, when he would make a statement on the
subject.
RECRUITING IN THE ARMY.

Captain VIVIAN asked the Secretary for War whether
it sram the intention of her Aftqesty'a Government to appoint ,
a committee or royal commission to inquire into the whole
system of recruiting in the array?
General PEEL said it was the intention of the Govern-
ment, with her Majesty's concurrence, to appoint a royal
commission on the subject.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS IN IRELAND.
Sergeant DEASY asked the Chief Secretary for Ire-
land whether it was the intention of the Government to in-
troduce any measure on this subject, and if so, at whattime
he would be prepared to introduce the measure ?
Lord NAAS said Government intended to introduce such
a measure, but he could not state the day when it would be
brought forward.
THE DANUBIAN PROVINCES—THE ARMY
ESTIMATES.
On the motion for the adjournment of the house till
Monday,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in
rising on that motion he wished to make a few observations
with reference to the motions on the paper brought forward
when such adjournment was moved. Out of eight ques-
tions seven of them were on subjects that might legiti-
mately be brought before the house, but one of them was
relative to a matter that should not have been introduced at
that time. The terms of the motion were the following :
"To call the attention of the house to the organisation of
the Danubian Provinces, in as far as it is atfecttd by the
election of Alexander John Sourza to be Hospodar of
Wallachia, he having been previously elected Hospo-
dar of Moldavia." That motion referred to a most
important subject, which it would be most incon-
venient ltb consider in the house at that time. He
would not then enlarge on the question, as at the
present moment the conference at Paris on the subject was
about to be revived. It would not be desirable to bring it
forward on that occasion; and, when brought forward, it
should be in a more formal manner.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he concurred with the
right hon. gentleman (the Chanchellor of the Ex-
chequer), that the question contained in the motion
should not have been raised on the motion for the adjourn-
ment of the house. He would take that opportunity of
asking the Secretary of State for the War Department
whether he was serious in the intention which he had ex-
pressed of going into the war estimates on Monday next.
It was the usual practice that the navy estimates should be
taken first.
Sir De L. EVANS hoped that in bringing forward these
estimates the hon. and gallant Secretary would make some
general statement on the subject.
General PEEL said that he merely proposed to get the
power_ to raise the necessary number of soldiers for the
public service, without asking for any money, and if op-
posed to the wishes of the house he would withdraw it for
the present.
Mr. STAPLETON, in withdrawing the motion alluded
to, gave notice that he would bring the subject forward
again.

THE NAVIGATION LAWS.
Mr. HUTT called the attention of the house to a letter
dated Foreign-office, 10th Nov., 1858, signed G. Hammond,
purporting to be a communication from the Earl of Malmes-
bury to the Chamber of Commerce of Greenock, on the
subject of the Navigation Laws.
LETTERS TO THE COLONIES.
Mr. A. STEUART asked the Secretary to the Treasury
whether any complaints had reached him regarding the
non-delivery tof letters posted in this country for the colo-
nies ; and if so, whether he could suggest any remedy, by
rendering it optional to pre-pay wholly or in part, or other-
wise ?
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that there certainly had
been some complaints with respect to the non-
delivery of letters posted in this country for Australia
anumber of which, it was stated, had not
reached- their destination. The Government had made
but could not ascertain the cause of the non-
delivery. In cases inqui-88,where the letters had been prepaid in
probably the postmasters had appropriated the
minocinneeyy, and the only r
in stamps.eirtedy he could suggest was that
prepaid letters should he RE/GN OFFICE.
IHE FO First Commissioner
Sir BENJAMIN HALL asked
wkehidethhem.
uc in to adopt
of Works to state the reasons
on of the Foreign Office
the plan for the re-construc was adjudged, and
to which the third premium
which the first and second
to reject those plans to
premiums were awarded ; also, Whecother
any objection to place in one of tiu) in
iltetewe orulood ms the
three sets of plans as they were exhibited Westminster
hall, in order that the members of the 1-101158 of Commons
might have the opportunity of seeing them for
further steps were taken in relation to thedesign before
which
the third premium was given.
Lord J. MANNERS vindicated the course p
alluded
to. the select committee in the adoption
to. If honourable members wished to re-examineurusudeedd
the three original designs he had no objection to their being_e
placed in a committee-room for that purpose. He asked
the house to give the Executive fair play, and not interfere
in the matter at the present tine.
After a few words from Sir B. HALL,
Sir G. LEWIS defended the late Government, who had
brought in a bill on the subject, which had been thrown out
by the (2position it received from the present Government.
Mr. TITS said that in the observation he had made on
a previous occasion, the only question he thought, be-
fore the house wasthe respective merits of Gothic and
Italian architecture. Ile thought the noble lord pro-
posed to commit himself to an expenditure of which he
had no idea, in throwing open the 'estimate to the
tenders of builders of which he had no practical knowledge.
He thought that the house should have an opportunity of
judging for themselves, and repeated his objections to tl •
incongruity of the style selected by the noble lord for the
new offices. _ _ _

Mr. CONINGITAM opposed the adoption of the Gothic
architecture in the proposed building.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that under all the cfre,unl
stances-the late Government could not be ace of -
incon-
sistency in respect to this question, and the preset -
vernment ought not to have made their 9:
lection from those who had not obtained the
first prize. ire agreed with the honourable member for
Bath, that before they incurred the expense of designs and
estimates, they should have an opportunity of de-
ciding on the style of architecture to be adopted.
He was strongly opposed to the Gothic style for the
War-othceo, which atould Po gay AO PAt out-

side and light and airy inside. (Laughter.) They
had not a large amount of sun in this climate,
and these buildings should be so constructed as
to admit all the light from the exterior, and retie :t all the
light in the interior. (Renewed laughter.)
THE ACCOUNTS AND STORES AT WEEDON.
Mr. J. A. TURNER wished to state the reasons why the
Royal Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of
the books and stores at Weedon, Woolwich, a d the Tower,
had not yet sent in their report. It was much to be regretted
that Mr. Selfe had been prevented by illness from attending,
but that circumstance alone would not have prevented the
presentation of the report ; there were other circumstances
which prevented it. They had found the books at Weedon
in hopeless confusion, no day-books had been kept, no store-
ledgers had been entered up, and the only vouchers were a
number of loose documents, which were most unsatisfactory,
and out of place. Commissary General Adams was there
with eight commissaries, and 20 clerks, to unravel these
matters. The commissioners, however, after their return,
suggested to the War-office that as they must insist on
their own accountant, Mr. Jay, of the firm of Quilter and
Ball, going through these accounts for their satisfaction, it
would be a saving of expense to allow them, instead of Com-
missary-General Adams, to complete the investigation.
This was acceded to, and the accounts and books had since
been in the hands of Mr. Jay and his assistants. A letter
from Mr. Jay, written on the 9th inst., informed them that
he did not think it possible to bring the investigation to a
conclusion in less than two or three months. There were
also three other accounts the commissioners wanted to have
rendered. At the Tower they found that the store-ledger
had been balanced in Oct., 1857, and at the same period an
account of the stock in hand at the Tower was taken—a
very laborious operation, since there were 13,000 to 15,000
different articles in store there. The commissioners had
thought it their duty to have the state of the ledgers, as
balanced by the clerks at the Tower when that operation
was last performed before, compared with the actual sur-
vey or counting of the articles, performed by persons
whom they sent down for the purpose. They had applied
to the War office for the comparative account, and that
day, since he
put this notice on the paper, he had got
a communication. from the War office, stating that the
store-ledger to October, 1857, had now been examined,
and on a comparison of what then remained as the
balance with the balance which remained in 1858, differ-
ences were found to exist in the quantity of various stores,
some showing a surplus and some a deficiency ; these would
have to be ascertained and balanced. The commissioners
had asked for another account from the Tower, a complete
list of all the stores called obsolete. They had found still
existing there 50,000 old flint muskets, and a vast quantity
of other articles which never would be put to any beneficial
use, and ought to be disposed of for what they would fetch.
The commissioners had requested that a complete list of
those articles should be sent them, and they wanted a simi-
lar account from Woolwich. When these accounts were
rendered, and Mr. Jay had finished his task, they would
endeavour to send in their report.
Colonel BOLDERO said the country was greatly in-
debted to the hon. member for Manchester for the indefati-
gable industry, ability, and business knowledge, which he
had brought to this investigation, which had occupied him
during the recess. Ho wished to know how many clerks
Mr. Jay had at Weedon, and what they cost, to do the work
for which the War-office employed a commissary-general,
eight commissioners, and twenty clerks. He thought the
commissioners might present their report without waiting
for these statistics, which could form the contents of an ap-
pendix.
General PEEL said he was quite as anxious for the pro-
duction of this report as the hon. member himself could be,
and had done all he could to facilitate it. With regard to
the Weedon accounts, he had at once acceded to the sug-
gestion of the commissioners, that their own accountant
could go through those accounts more speedily than the
commissary-general, and put an end to that expense. There
had been a delay at the Tower, from the illness of the store-
keeper, but the work should be proceeded with as fast as
possible.
THE CAPTURE OF THE CHARLES ET GEORGES.
Mr. KINGLAKE asked the Under - Secretary for
Foreign Affairs when the papers relating to the capture and
restoration of the Charles et Georges would be laid on the
table ? Statements, he said, had gone forth to Europe not
promulgated in newspapers or pamphlets, but in the official
documents laid before the Cortes by the Sovereign of Portu-
gal—statements which impugned the credit of England,and
which imputed to the British representative at Lisbon that
he, in consequence of the instructions conveyed in a tele-
graphic despatch from Lord Malmesbury, signed a document
involving a most painful surrender of all that England
ought to think herself justified in contending for. When
Parliament met the right hon. gentleman said that the
papers would be laid before the house, with the full convic-
tion that the British Government had faithfully performed
its duty, and that terms had been obtained for Portugal
which would have been satisfactory to all Europe—that the
conduct of England towards Portugal had been such as it
ought to be towards an ancient ally. Now, the charge
against the Government being so grave, and the right hon.
gentleman thinking the defence so complete and triumphant,
one would have expected that Ministers would not have lost
an hour in laying that defence before Parliament. These
transactions terminated in October last year. During the
last fortnight the house had not been so much occupied
with other business but that a discussion on this matter
might have conveniently taken place ; but the effect of the
non-production of these papers was, that all discussion was
warded off until after the house should be pledged to the
debates on the Reform Bill. When he asked a question
about it the other day he was told that these papers were
" in a state of preparation ;" and he did not like that term,
for it gave the impression that they were undergoing some
culinary process. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said he would now reply to the
four several questions which had been addressed to him by
different hon. gentlemen. One of those hon. members (Mr.
Wise) was in error in thinking that Mr. H.Vyse hadbeen ap-
pointed consul at Jeddo ; it was only vice-consul, and as such
he would be in a strictly subordinate position, under an expe-
rienced chief. The question asked would rather imply that
/ the appointments in China had not been properlydistributed.
The tact was that in no Instaucts Lad greacer car.
taken with such appointments. Out of thirteen appoint-
ments in China and Japan that were rendered necessary by
the new arrangements, amounting altogether to upwards of
£14,000 a year, twelve had been entirely made in the way
of promotion of those who had heretofore distinguished
themselves in the public service. (Cheers.) There was no
recommendation of the consular committee that made it ob-
jectionable to appoint a very intelligent gentleman to the
subordinate post intended for Mr. Howard Vyse. In reply
to the hon. member for Dartmouth, he was sure it would be
believed that it was by no discourtesy on his own part, but
by some accident or inadvertence of others, that the omission
occurred in the papers of the matter to which his attention
was directed. The hon. member asked whether her Ma-
jesty's Government had received any reply from the Peru-
vian Government to the communication made by Lord
Malmesbury some months age. Her Majesty's Government
had received no reply. In the last communication they had
received from Peru it was mentioned that a proposition to
throw open the trade in guano in the Chincha Islands had
been made to the Peruvian Government, and had been re-
ceived with some favour, but they had no other information.
He agreed that to obtain an abandonment of the monopoly
was most important to British agriculture, but her Majesty's
Government could do nothing more than to make represen-
tions on the subject; this had been done, and he hoped
the renewed efforts would have a more favourable result.
The question asked by another hon. member (Mr. Hutt)
was as to a letter written by Lord Malmesbury in answer
to a memorial from the Chamber of Commerce at Greenock.
He did not mean to enter into any discussion of the navi-
gation laws, or the distress of the shipping interest, but
the hon. gentleman must have been very hard up for
a grievance when he brought forward this. In the man-
ner in which he had dealt with that letter there was much
ingenuity, but not much fairness nor justice. The hon.
gentleman asked the house to look at a few detached
words, and pass a condemnation on the noble lord's letter.
Under what circumstances was that letter written ? A
memorial was addressed by the Chamber of Commerce at
Greenock with reference to the differential duties, requesting
that some measure should be devised for extricating the
shipowners from their unfortunate position, and obtaining
reciprocal concessions. The noble lord, in his reply, stated
that at the time of the repeal of the navigation laws many
opinions were expressed that Parliament was going too far,
and that we should give up everything and receive nothing
in return. The question was whether the apprehensions
then expressed had been justified or not. It had been said
thatTranc,e and Spain had refused to reciprocate. - But he
would ask the hon. gentleman if he had heard no complaints
as to the coasting trade of the United States? Had he never
heard British shipowners complain that they could not sail
from New York to San Francisco without being told that
they were engaged in the coasting trade ? (Hear.) The
noble lord in his letter had done nothing more than recite an
historical fact in stating that the apprehensions with respect
to the reciprocity with foreign nations had been fully justi-
fied. The hon. gentleman had conjured up a design on the
part of the noble lord or the Government to raise an agita-
tion 'with a view to the re-enactment of the navigation laws;
but he thought no hon. member could imagine that any such
idea was entertained. (Hear.) The only other question
which he had to answer related to the Charles et Georges.
He did not know by whom the accusations referred to had
been made, but if there were any persons who were likely to
say the honour of the country was neglected, it was not so
much the newspapers as the opponents of the Government
opposite, whose wish was probably father to the thought.
(Hear.) He was now in a position to promise that the papers
relating to this matter should be laid on the table on Mon-
day or Tuesday r eat, and as they would be presented in a
printed shape, there would be ample time for the discussion
of the subject before the Reform Bill was brought forward.
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to.
CHURCH RATES.

Lord J. RUSSELL inquired what business the Govern-
ment intended to proceed with on Monday ?
Mr.IVALPOLE replied that it was his intention, after
disposing of the India Loan Bill, to propose on Monday
bringing
h the orders of the day be postponed for the purpose of
ST ANLE
forward the church rate question.
EASTyI
nl.NseDtolAmoLvOe
thatAN.
Lord
the house resolve
on
into committee
this subject, and I may possibly save
time by offering so
panty between the statement made
respecting the discre •
and that contained in made by me the other night
the p arliamptary accounts. I stated
the gross revenues of India
f
or
18e-7 at £33,303,000, and
the Parliamentary accounts
for that year put it at
£29,702,000. The greater partof
that difference is due to
the cause I mentioned at the time, namely,
in computing the exchange of the rupee the difference
at 2s. sterling-, whereas in the Parlia-meen;tal took tho rupee
rupee is taken at ls. 10td. I believe the73u bullion
the
n value is
about Is. 101 d., but the exchange value at the
present
has even exceeded 2s. I think that m 1834 theBieeatime
was assumed at 20., which gave a value to the Company's
rupee of ls. 100. ; but I believe that the value I rupee
took was
near to the actual value of the exchange at the present
time. This difference of value accounts for a discrepancy
to the amount of £2,081,462. Another cause of discrepancy,
which at the tithe I was not aware of, is that in the Parlia-
mentary accounts a considerable number of charges on the
one hand and receipts on the other are not included, having
been considered not properly as forming part of revenue.
The receipts deducted from charges in the Parliamentary
accounts, instead of being credited as revenue, amount to
£1,519,075, making the total discrepancy £3,600,537. As
regards the balance between income and expenditure, it is
obvious that no difference exists. A question may arise,
whether some of those items which appear in the account
ought to appear in it at all. I think that they outht, and
I propose, after a mature consideration of the subject, that
the Parliamentary accounts shall contain every item re-
ceived and expended. The difference in receipts dedumcharges in Parliamentary accountS, instead of being
credited as revenue, is £1,519,075, and the difference in
OmPutinS tb mhos bob* 42,0811402) tho airgreg*

difference is £3,600,537. After this explanation, I hope the
house will free me from any charge of inaccuracy. (Cheers.)
There is another matter, though a small one, to which I
may allude. When I calculated the number of European
forces in India I used the last returns received from India,
dated October. But nearly 20,000 men went out between
June and December, and a large proportion of these would
probably not have reached India in time to be included in
the return for October. My statement was accurate as far
_ _

as it went,but there is a largercharge for troops than would
be accounted for in the statement I made. With regard to
_ _

the public works in India, I have seen some doubt expressed
whether the returns from these works were accurately given.
I have since gone through the figures and verified them from
official documents, and I find they are strictly accurate.
_ _

These figures were not founded upon the calculations of en-
gineers, but upon the statements of the Board of Revenue,
whose calculations appear in despatches and minutes, in
which it is the object of the Board to show -where the esti-
mates of the engineers may be too sanguine, and to reduce
the total to the true amount. With regard to the question

put to me by an hon. member as to the authority given to
Lord Canning to raise a loan at 6 per cent., I thought it de-
sirable not to answer it when it was first put, as it seemed to
require some explanation. The state of the case was this:—
Last July the Government of India thought they had cause
to apprehend a more serious embarrassinent than they had
hitherto experienced, or than has, in fact, resulted, and
under these circumstances they addressed to the Government
here a despatch which, with the reply, I shall be prepared
to lay upon the table. They enumerated the various alter-
natives by whichthat embarrassment might be relieved, one
being that large remittances should be made from this coun-
try, and others referring to the various ways in which
money might be raised in India at a higher rate of interest
than had hitherto been given. That was not a case of op-
tion, but of necessity. There were no means at the time of
making remittances from this country to the amount that
was necessary, and on the Bth of September the Indian
Department authorised the issue of Treasury notes at 6 per
cent., if it should be found necessary. No intimation has,
up to this time, been received that this authority has been
acted upon, and it is obvious that this is a resource to which
the Government of India will not willingly have recourse,
unless under circumstances that leave it no option. The
rate of interest hitherto paid by the Government of India
has not been nominally above 5 per cent. I say has not
been nominally above 5 per cent., because in point of fact it
has been a good deal more. The 5 per cent. loan is about
92. Of course no one will subscribe to that loan at par when
he can buy it at 92 ; and the operation is that 4 per cent.
paper, which can be bought at 82, is allowed to be paid in
with an equivalent amount of cash into the 5 per cent.
loan. The natural working is that any person is allowed to
pay. £l,OOO in 4 per cent. paper, and he gets 5 per cent.,
provided he also pays in £l,OOO cash.. The effect is
that, in consideration of getting £l,OOO cash at 5 per cent.,
the Government is paying 1 per cent. more upon an equal
amount of paper; so that the Government of India is
borrowing practically. at a little less than 6 per cent.,
and the power of issuing Treasury notes at 6 per
cent. is a greater increase in appearance than in
reality. It was expected that there might be a necessity for
issuing the 6 per cent. Treasury notes, but the last returns
received on Monday show a considerable increase in the
open 5 per cent. loan, and not the least gratifying circum-
stance is that the increased subscription is principally from
native sources. (Hear.) With regard to the authority to
raise money by Treasury notes at 6 per cent., I have stated
that I hope the occasion will not arise for its being used,
but it is not contemplated that the authority shouldbe with-
drawn. As to the closing of the 5 per cent., it does not ap-
pear to be desirable at present. It is the general feeling in
this country that India ought, as far as possible, to supply
the capital that maybe required for works in India. (Hear)
It is not easy to explain why there should be this difference
between the price paid in India and that in England. Some
hon. members may be able to explain the reason, but I can-
not, although it is a fact that a difference in the rate of in-
terest upon the same security has existed for a considerable
time. Last year the average price paid for the £8,000,000
loan you sanctioned was 4f per cent. here, while the rate at
Calcutta was between 5 and 6. There is one other question
upon the amount of Indian debt as estimated by me. I have
seen, since Iylonday, various comments and remarks upon
that debt which indicate some confusion as to its actual
amount. I have been asked why I did not include the
£40,000,000 of railway guarantees. My answer is, that the
£40,000,000 of railway capital, on which interest is guaran-
teed, has not been in any sense a burden upon the Indian
revenue. The railway guarantees are no charge ; they are
an investment, and when the lines are opened we shall pro-
bably see the railways a source of profit. Again, I am asked
why East India Stock was not included. East India Stock
is never included, because it is not a permanent but a ter-
minable charge, which will cease in 1784, and, therefore,
cannot have a place in any general calculation of the per-
manent resources and burdens of Indian revenue. I thought,
also, that I could not safely include the £7,000,000 of de-
posits. It is hardly possible to say how much of that
£7,000,000 constitutes a real liability upon the Government
of India. These deposits are composed of various items.
They are a possible liability, but there is always a balance
of them. Above £1,000,000 is bullion in the Treasury. A
part of these deposits is not likely to be required, and
upon the whole no interest is paid. Therefore I did not
include them in my statement of the debt. When these
deductions are made, it will be found that my statement of
the amount of the debt is strictly accurate. Up to April,
1857, the debt of India was, by the Parliamentary account,
£52,074,986. There had been borrowed in India up to
November, 1858, £7,468,181. The debenture loan of last
year was £8,000,000. The home bond debt is £7,000,000.
and the aggregate debt bearing interest is thus £74,543,167.
' Ido not know the exact amount, but it is comparatively
small, which has been borrowed in India since the Bth of
' November 18.58, when the return was made up. I thought
j toli=e.f to llorlllolleseslerx,tillirltrlegO theell=
The house then went'into committee, and Mr. FITZROY,
the Chairman, read the resolution, to the effect that it was
expedient that the Secretary of State for India should have
power to raise money in England for the use of the Govern-
ment in India.
Sir C. WOOD was afraid that further discrepancies might
be found than those which had been pointed out by the
noble lord in the explanations which he had just given to the
house. He entirely concurred in most of the remarks of the
noble lord on a previous night relative to the difficulties which
had arisen from the war expenditure, but thought that his
statements with regard to public works were not sufficiently
full and satisfactory. With respect to the loan for war ex-
penses, he of course did not intend to offer any opposition to
the motion of the noble lord. As he understood, the noble
lord proposed to defray the war expenses for the ensuing
year out of the loan of £7,000,000, but ho had not pointed
out the operations which the Government expected to be
undertaken, or whether they imagined they would be able
to bring those operations to a close without a further loan.
The noble lord at present proposed to raise a loan of seven
millions, and he did not know that he could take a wiser
course. He now came to the most important matter—the
financial state of India. The financial state of any country
was of importance, but looking to the present state of India,
it was one of great importance, not only to India, but to this
country. In this country, when there was an increased ex-
penditure, there was no great difficulty in putting on some
fresh tax. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If there were an
increase in the navy estimates, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would, by increasing the income tax, or by some
other mode, find a means of defraying the expenditure. But
when the revenue of a country was in the state which he
was sorry to say that of India was at this moment, they
could not find fresh sources in India. And he thought it
was incumbent on the noble lord, and it was incumbent on
the house, when the Indian finances were brought before
them for the first time since India had been brought under
the government of the Queen, that they should carefully
look to the state of those finances. The ordinary state of
Indian finance for some years past had been that of an an-
nual deficit. If the Secretary for India and the council,
supported by that house, did not pay the most earnest atten-
tion to that question, depend upon it, they would bring
great liabilities upon this country. The noble lord intimated
to them the other night something like a moral responsibility
on this country. Now, he protested against any liability
being imposed on this country on account of India. (Cheers.)
He was sure it would be detrimental to the government of
India if they supposed that they could fall back en the
finances of this country. If they were to undertake liabilities
in India, they might be called upon to do so for the colo-
nies. If they were to admit the intimation made by others
last year, and by the noble lord this year, they wouhl
be drifting into a responsibility which he was sure
the house was not prepared to undertake. He would 'say
one word more on this subject, not in reference to the
noble lord, but to warn the house against this possible
danger. That house had shown itself not indisposed to
meddle with this subject in two ways. The house was
disposed not long since to take a course which would put
in great jeopardy the revenue from salt, and the other night
an hon. member gave notice of a motion to take away the
revenue from opium. If they took away Indian revenue
by imperial legislation then they would incur not a moral
but a legal responsibility. (Hear, hear.) They must be
cautious in dealing with Indian revenue and Indian deficit,
and they must oppose directly or indirectly any liability
which this country ought not to undertake. (Hear,
hear.) The ordinary revenue of India at the present
moment was not so satisfactory as he should be glad to see
it. He was speaking of the ordinary, independent of the
war expenditure. The accounts which were laid on the
table last July contained the accounts for India up to
April, 1857, just before the mutiny broke out. In 1850-51
there was a surplus of upwards of £400,000; in 1851-52,
a surplus of £531,000; in 1852..53, a surplus of, £424,000.
Those were the accounts which were received in this
country when he had the honour of being President of
the Board of Control, and the revenues of India had not
been in so satisfactory a state for some time. They availed
themselves of that opportunity of reducing the charge on
the Indian debt. Objections were made to that course in this
country, but he thought that on financial grounds it was
perfectly right. The interest of the debt was reduced to
the extent of half a million. Well, next year a change of cir-
cumstances took place, and instead of there being a surplus
of nearly half a million there was a deficiency of two mil-
lions ; in the subsequent year of £1,700,000 ; in the follow-
ing year, of £972,000. The deficit of the three years ex-
ceeded very considerably the surplus of the three preceding
years, the surplus amounting to £1,300,000, and the defi-
ciency to £4,700,000. In the subsequent year there was a
surplus of £143,000. He said he would refer to the in-
crease of expenditure as well as the increase of revenue. He
found that the charge had increased more than the reve-
nue, and whatever had been the increase of revenue the
charge had increased more. In 1851 there was a surplus of
£lOO,OOO ; in 1856-7 a deficit of £150,000. That was the
state of things up to the last period before the commence-
ment of the war. And now let theip see how they would stand
after all the war expenditure had been incurred. Supposing
that by the Ist of May, 1860, the war establishment was
put down and the troops disbanded. He had shown that
in the last ten years the charge had increased more
than thate:eevauendueex,peanuddiittuwroeuwldeunlodt bebe unfair to
then.
ir assume
thethen they would have borrowed £26,000,000 for the
pur-
poses of the war, and he hoped that would be the whole that
they would have to borrow. He could not say that he
that
But
thought it would, but he wished to understate the case and
not to overstate it. lie would assume that £26,000,000 was
would the whole amount. The interest of that have to be
added to the charge on the Indian
revenue, and taking the
interest at 4i per cent. it would be £1,170,000 a year, and
adding that to the existing deficit there would be a deficit of
from a million and a quarter to a million and a half. How
was that to be met ? He was bound to say, after his tribute
to the lucid statement of the noble lord, that it was exceed-
ingly deficient in holding out to them any hope or prospect
iv,a practical way /49Y( thinwasto bo mot, nte A0113191%1