The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-30 00:00:00

timents equally honourable. This year the question, which
once was embodied in a resolution, now recognized as a
great mistake—the question of Parliamentary Reform, be-
came definitively shelved—(hear, and laughter)—and from
that mou ent there was no doubt greater irritation conscien-
tiously felt by gentlemen below the gangway in consequence
of the conduct of the Government. That irritation was
not concealed. Every invitation that was Parliamentary
and legitimate was given to us to embarrass the Govern-
ment. Did we avail ourselves of those opportunities?
(Cheers.) On the contrary, we gave the ministers credit,
as before, for being actuated in the course which they
' took by those sentiments of honour and by those convic-
tions of public duty which I believe always animate gen-
tlemen in their position. (Hear, hear.) What has been
the course pursued by the opposition during the present
session? I will not refer to it in detail because many of
the instances which I might adduce might be painful to
hon. gentlemen opposite. (A laugh.) But I will take one
case of a financial character to show the temper of this Op-
position, which some suppose to be so aggressive. A
motion for the repeal of the hop duty was brought before
the house immediately before the right hon, gentleman had
to propose his budget. Having last year objected to repeal
the Excise duty on paper, because it put an end to a com-
plete branch of our revenue, I thought it would be incon-
sistent to be precipitated into supporting the repeal of the
hop duty, though unquestionably it is, both in amount and
in its character, very different from the paper duty. In
supporting the Government, and I believe I may say in ob-
taining for them a majority upon the question, I placed
myself in a painful position towards many friends whom I
greatly regard, and towards an interest with which I deeply
sympathise, as I proved by a measure which when Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer I submitted to the house. (Hear.)
There were other occasions fresh in the recollection of hon.
gentlemen, when it is well-known that on this side of the
house there was an anxious and a very prompt determina-
tion to support the Government of the Queen; and even
since this unfortunate, this ill-advised, and unhappy bud-
get was produced the Government have three times, in
Committee of Supply, been sustained from defeat by the
Opposition. (Cheers.) Then I think I have shown that
there are no special circumstances arising from the exis-
tence of a powerful, menacing, and aggressive Opposition
that could give any colour to violent and rash conduct on
the pat tof the noble lord. (Hear, hear;) From this house,
and from those who, because they sit opposite to him, bear
the constitutional and formal name of Opposition, the noble
lord since he has accepted office has receivedupon the whole
a sincere and cordial support. (Cheers.) Sir, no one
grudges the noble lord the position which he occupies.
(Cheers.) He has for many years served his country and
his Sovereign, often with great advantage, though we may
sometimes have questioned the prudence or propriety of
some particular course that he has taken. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord has on all occasions expressed himself in
a:manner upon the important subject of the defence of
the country which has obtained from this side of the
house an echo sincere and stedfast. (Hear, hear.) The
general policy of the noble lord has been well received
and countenanced on this side of the house;
and on this very question of finance, on this question
of the paper duties, if it is possible to under-
stand language aright, no one who sat in this house last
year can suppose that there is any serious difference be-
tween the gentlemen on this side and themoble lord. (Hear,
hear.) Then is this Minister, who in difficult circumstan-
ces has been so supported—is this Minister whose policy in
these eventful times has not been challenged by the
Opposition—is this Minister, who has come forward to make
unprecedented demands on the finances of the country, to
ask an amount of taxation for which he has never applied
in vain,—is this Minister, who never has brought forward
one great measure that has been defeated by the Opposition
(for I maintain that the measure of Parliamentary Reform
was mainly defeated by his own friends) ; is this the Min-
ister who, after a career so long and experience so great,
after having lived so long in the House of Commons and
loved it so well, who will grudge to the house the enjoyment
and exercise of its dearest privilege—the privilege of con-
sidering how a remission of taxes may be effected most
advantageously for the interests of the country ? (Cheers.)
I can never believe that the noble lord, after running so
illustrious a career, will commit so great a political mistake.
(Hear, hear.) Ho knows the House of Commons better.
He knows England better. (Hear, hear.) Such a course
might become a man of violent passions. It might become
a man who has a secret understanding and carries on the
business of the State in such a mysterious manner as to
confound all speculation. (Cheers.) But such is not the
course that becomes the manly character of the Prime Min-
ister of England. (Cheers.) Convinced, then, that in assert-
ing this dearest privilege and fulfilling this most important
business we shall arrive, whatever may be the decision of the
Committee of Ways and Means at no result but what will be
to the advantage of the country. I shall offer no opposition
to the first resolution which is to be submitted to our con-
sideration, and which stands second on the list, the first
resolution having been already agreed to. I retain and
strongly retain all those opinions which I have so frequently
expressed respecting the policy we should pursue with
regard to the income-tax; but, considering the circum-
stances in which we are placed, considering that a committee
is now sitting on the subject, and that it is impossible when
there is a remission of taxes that there should be a re-
mission of both direct and indirect taxes, I shall offer no
opposition to the resolution. When we approach the second
resolution that will come under our notice, and which pro-
' poses to renew not only the old duties on tea and sugar, but
the war duties also, I think the house will have gravely to
consider whether it is wise to pass that resolution entire.
(Hear.) We ought to consider whether if there is to be a
remission of indirect taxation—which I should be prepared
to approve—we should not find it more expedient and ad-
vantageous that that remission should take piece on this
third resolution. (He r, hear.) Of course it does not re-
quire a Chancellor of the Exchequer to inform us that that
gentleman made a great mistake who proposed to remit all
the war duties, though no proposal of that sort has met my
ear during the debate—(hear)—and it will become a matter
of grave consideration to what amount and to what articles
that remission should be directed There are two great con-
siderations to be looked to. In the first place we ought to
look to the immediate and general advantage of the commu-
nity, and we ought to take care that if we remit taxation it
shall be remitted in such a manner that the whole advan-
tage shall go into the pockets of the community. (Hear,
hear.) So much for the immediate advantage of the com-
munity ; but there is another consideration in my mind not
less important than than,—we ought to consider how re•
ini'ss►on of indirect taxation may at the same time stimulate
industry of the country. (Hear, hear.) I have not the
'Slightest doubt that if you take off the Exise duty on paper,
or on anything else, you will, to a certain degree and in a
limited sense, stimulate the industry of the country. I don't
use those words to depreciate the remission of any Excise
duty, but it must necessarily be in a limited sense. There

are indirect taxes, however, which you may remit which
which would give a much more extensive stimulus to the
occupations of the people, and which would contribute to
much greater results than the remission of the Excise on
any particular article. You must look to the state of our
markati. (Hear, hear.) The state of our markets, though
it may be, and, I have no doubt, has been, duly taken into
consideration by the Minister in the estimate laid before us,
is a subject to which the House of Commons cannot be
blind. (Hear, hear.) You have our great American trade
already embarrassed, and though one still cherishes the lin-
gering hope that the dissensions may terminate among
those to whom we are bound, not more by blood than by
the sympathy of a thousand sentiments, still he would be a
sanguine man who can suppose that, under any circum-
stance, the trade of the great American nation will be for
some time that which it has been. (Hear, hear.) Our
Levantine trade is only just escaping—l can hardly say
escaped—but is only just terminating a convulsion
greater than has happened in our time. India is suf-
fering, and the whole of the Continent of Europe
is either in a state of confusion, or its general industry is de-
pressed and destroyed by r•.rilitary preparations or military
expenditure. (Hear, hear.) It is clear, therefore, that the
prospects of those great markets are by no means suspi-
cious ; but there is a great trade, an increasing trade in the
far East, which offers at this moment a remarkable opening
for the enterprise and the capital of England. Lord Elgin,
who has just returned to this country—it is not in a blue-

book, but the house may depend upon it it is perfectly au-
thentic—says that while in China ho took especial pains to
ascertain what was the amount of the populatian of that
country—whether those traditions which had long pre-
vailed on that point were mythical or founded on fact ;
and, havini given great pains and industry to ascertain the
truth, it is the opinion of Lord Elgin that the real popula.

tion of China, taken by census, is not less than 400,000,000
human beings. It is impossible, therefore, not to see that
that is the point of the world which ought now to be
watched with the greatest anxiety and interest. (Hear,
hear.) We have another country in the vicinity of China
which, though not so extensive, has a refined civilisation
and a population of many wants—l mean Japan. Have we,
then, an opportunity at this moment, by remitting wisely
and boldly the duty on one great article of general con-
sumption, not only of adding to the happiness of a thousand
homes—to use the Chancellor of the Exchequer's language
—but of giving a consistent stimulus to the commerce of
this country ? (Hear.) I think that remission ought not
to, be frittered away between the articles of tea and sugar.
(Hear, hear) I think we shouid concentrate our efforts on
one of them. (Hear, hear.) It is the war tax on tea on
which we should concentrate our efforts—(hear, hear)—and
I believe tfira, if 'we do so in a manner to consult the inte-
rests of tire revenue, and to secure that the whole advan-
tage of the remission shall reach the pockets of the con-
sumer, the result will be one highly beneficial to the
country. (Cheers.) I think I may further state that an hon.
friend of mine, representing one of the' greatest constituen-
cies in the world—my hon. friend the member for Liverpool
—will in committee take our opinion on that course. (Loud
cheers.) I thonglit it fair to the Government and frank to
the house that I should state the course whieh we propose
to take. (Hear, bear.) There are points which may after-.
wards arise, and upon which it may be necessary for the
committee to act; but it is not necessary for me at present
to go beyond the statement which I have made, (Hear,
hear.) I apprehend that we shall gc into Committee
of Ways and Means or} T'aiirsday. The house, there-
fore, will not have been taken by surprise, and the Govern-
ment attcl the C9Lamitt:4 Will have bast time t 9 ecrp.elcleV the

course which they will take in reference to the notice which
I presume my hon. friend will put upon the paper to-night.
(Hear.) I earnestly pray the decision which the house may
come to in Committee of Ways and Means will be the one'
most conducive to the interests of the people, and to the
maintenance of the commerce of the country. I cannot '
doubt that if the house be animated by sentiments which
will make them desire such a result, those sentiments will •
prevail and find an echo in the country ; and that no Inall
will more sincerely respect your decision—whatever thet
decision may be—then the noble the Prime Minister of
England. (Loud and general cheering.)
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, it is not my intention at this
late hour of the night t 3 enter into those controversial dis-
cussions which have occupied so much of the time of the
house ; but I am bound to say, that although we have spent
a great deal of time In this preliminary discussion, and
although a great variety of opinions have been expressed,
yet I do not complain that we have lost or improvidently
consumed the time of the house—(hear)—because, in a met'
ter involving so many comparative points, it was natural
that a great number of varieties of opinions should ariset
and it was desirable that those different subjects should be
freely canvassed and discussed, in order that the haulm
might come to some final decision on the course which it
should be disposed to take. (Hear.) We have made pro-
gress, because, though in the earlier discussions there ea'
peered to be some doubt in the minds of some hon. member;
as to whether there was or was not an available supine,
the right hon. gentleman .whe has just sat down has fairly
admitted that a surplus there is. The only question, there'
fore, for the house to consider is in what manner that our•
plus should be disposed of. (Hear.) lam glad that the
right hon. gent'eman has stated that with regard to the
proposal which the Government have made with respect to
the income tax no opposition is intended to be offered. I
should hope that, that being the case, we may be allowed,
late as the hour is, to go into committee to pass the resolii-
tion to which there is no opposition, and clear the way for
that discussion which will take place on Thursday in re-
spect to those propositions on which there is a difference
of opinion. (Heir, hear.) Now, I admit that the issue
which the right hon. gentleman has stated it to be his in-
tention to propose is a perfectly fair one to be submitted
to the house. (Hear, hear.) Though there are many
considerations which would lead the house to prefer the
remission of the duty on tea, I think it is a misnomer to
call it a war duty; because, if I am not under a misap-
prehension, the ar duty on tea was Is. 9d., and since the
war the duty has been reduced to ls. sd. I believe the
present duty is lower than ever it was at any former time ;
but, at all events, the higher duty put on during the war
has ceased, and the duty now, instead of being Is. 9d., is
only ls. sd. I mention this in order that the house may
clearly understand the point on which its decision will to
required. I admit that it is a very legitimate proposal to
make, to substitute the repeal of the duty on tea for the
repeal of th a duty en paper. I prefer remission of the duty
on paper. I think there are good and valid reasons why
we should accept the reduction of the income tax, and that
economical and commercial reasons have been stated in
favour of the remission proposed by the Government.
(Hear, hear.) Whether a pledge has been given or not,
whether we are bound by resolutions or not, I think n°
man can deny that, at all events, we are in that position
with regard to the paper duty (not only with respect to
itself but with respect to the other House of Parliament)
that, it is highly desirable on the gravest political ground
that we should take the opportunity of repealing the duty,
especially if we can do it in a manner which will render it
less disagreeable than it otherwise would be for the other
house to concur in its repeal. (Cheers:) I think it is clear
that if we do not repeal that tax this year we shall be urged
to take the earliest opportunity to repeal it which the state
of our finances will permit. We shall then, perhaps, have
to send up that bill singly, and I put it to any one whether
it will not be more easy for the House of Lords to consider
in the . proposal, when we accompany the repeal of the
Excise duty on paper with a popu'ar measure for the ditai"
nution of the income tax—(hear)—whether i'; will no
facilitate a good understanding and accord between the twe
houses that we should send up the two measures, rather
than send up singly and nakedly a bill for the repeal of the
duty, to which last year the House of Lords refused to
accede. (H ear.) In my opinion it is impossible to suit'
gerate the value of a settlement of a question which has
created ill-feeling and misunderstanding between the two
houses. (Hear.) Ido not mean now to argue the question
fully; it will be argued when it comes properly under our
consideration; but I wish to state that I retain the opinion
on which the Government have acted in proposing the ar-
rangement which has been laid before the house. Both
on the ground of the intrinsic value of that repeal, and on
the higher and more important ground of its bearing on
the relations of the two houses to each other, I attach
great value to maintaining the repeal of the paper
duty in preference to a diminution of the duty on
tea. (Cheers.) It would be quite misplaced at this time
of night to, go further into that argument. I merely state,
therefore, that notwithstanding the reasons which the right
hon. gentleman has stated he is prepared to allege in favour
of the diminution of the duty, her Majesty's Government
will certainly maintain the proposal which they have made.
(Cheers.)
The house then went into Committee of Ways and
Means.

Upon the first resolution, with respect to the income-tat
Mr. T. BARING said he thought it desirable to defer the
adoption of the first resolution for the reduction of the in"
come-tax until it was ascertained whether it was the plea-
sure of the committee to adopt the remission of the paper
duty. His own impression was that if the paper duty Wee
abolished they ought not to have any reduction of the in-
come-tax, because it was a very different proposition to re-
peal a positive tax like paper from that of reducing a pro-
ductive duty like tea. He thought of moving on ThursdaY
that the resolution on the income-tax be postponed unil
after a decision had been taken on the resolution with re'
spect to paper. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BARING moved that the Chairman do report pro'
gress.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER confessed
that he was disappointed—(laughter)—in the interes t of hon.
gentlemen opposite, among whom he had looked for some
unitytermsofpi in'rndproceeding, especially after the very dis-
tinct which the right hon. gentleman the member
for Buckinghamshire had declared that there was to be Ile
opposition to the first resolution. (Hear.) As regarded idle
order of those resolutions it was but natural that those ire'
posing tixation should precede those by which it was to be
repealed.
Mr. BARING said he had no communication with his
right hon. friend, and was therefore unaware of the course
which it was intended to pursue. But, entertaining the
strong objections which he felt to a positive throwing awe,'
of revenue which there was no means of replacing, he should
simply move that the resolution do not pass, reserving I°
himself the right of opposing it on a future occasion.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT thought the object his hon. friend
the member for Huntingdon had in view would be marred
by the course which he proposed to take, which would have
the effect of raising a false- issue instead of that between tee
and paper, on which the house was anxious to divide.
In reply to the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
The CHAIRMAN stated that it was a well-established
rule in Committee of Supply or of Ways and Means that
resolution could not be postponed, unlike a bill where the
clauses might be taken up in whatever order was considered
most convenient.

Mr. DISRAELI said he had not intended by his Omen's'
tions to preclude any gentleman who might be desirous to
discuss the question of the income-tax from the opportunity
of doing ro. If such a desire were really entertained the
Government, he trusted, would waive their right to preso
the first resolution.

Mr. BRIGHT said if the hon. member for Huntingdon
could not make up his mind to part both with the penny 00
the income-tax and the amount of the paper duties, or an
equivalent, he ought to agree to the reduction of the in-

come-tax and to vote against the remission of duty either
upon tea or paper. (Laughter.)

Lord• •PALMERSTON thought the hon. member for
Huntingdon would perceive that it was not necessary ter
his purposes to object to the passage of the resolution,
which must be adopted or negatived, then, or on some future'
occasion, as it could not be postponed. The resolutions
were merely the foundation of that which was to give effect
to them, and many future opportunities would necessarily
be afforded to those who objected to the reduction of bt►e
income-tax to negative that portion of the financial scheme
in case they thought proper to do so.

Mr. WALPOLE pointed out that the question which
they were considering was whether the income-tax should
be reimposed at 9d. or at 10d. He was not aware that tali

one wished it to be fixed at the latter amount—(hear, hear)
but, of course, if the hon. gentleman wished to discuss
question, he ought to have the opportunity.
Mr. MALINS hoped the hon. gentleman would thrall"
no impediment in the way of a proposition which was 1111'
animously approved by the country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. BARING thought it not unreasonable that at
such an hour they should not proceed with the discussion,
but repeat progress. It had been doubted by severed mew
bers whether there was really a surplus.

Lord P A LMERSTON observed that the hon. gentleman
was in this dilemma, that, while holding that there was na
a surplus to warrant any remission of taxation, he was rao'r
ing a resolution the practical effect of which was to prevent
the renewal of the income-tax. (A. laugh, and "
hear.")

Mr. BARING said that if the Government wished to
pass the resolution at that hour he would not interfere. He

begged to withdraw his motion.

• Mr. CONINGIIAM hoped it was understood that the
proposition virtually before them was a
vote of confidence
in the Government. (Laughter, and "gear, bear.")
The resolution was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumad.

The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad-

journed at 2 o'cloek.

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