The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-26 00:00:00

GREENWICH HOSPITAL.

Mr. WRITBREAD (for Lord C. Paget) obtained leave
to bring in a bill to amend the law relating to Greenwich
Hospital.
ATLANTIC STEAM PACKET COMPANY.

On the motion of Mr. GREGORY, the following select
committee was nominated :—Mr. Walpole, Sir J. Trollope,
Sir M. Peto, Mr. Brown Westhead, Mr. Ker-Seymer, Mr.
Pee', and Mr. Gregory. Sir J. Graham excused on the
score of ill-health.

SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES.
The house went into committee of supply on the army
catima to,

The first vote moved was,
£691,051 to defray the charge of barracks.
Mr. B. OSBORNE thought it could not be said that the
parsimony of Parliament had ever interfered with the mili-
tary expenditure. Parliament, instead of being parsimo-
nious, had been lavish in all votes connected with the army,
and it seemed to be accepted as a dogma by the house that
whatever the Minister called for with respect to military
expenditure must be granted almost sub silentio. What had
been the case of military expenditure with regard to Alder-
shott since the Crimean war? He thought our greatest
monument of extravagance was to be found in that camp.
It was originally intended to be a camp for assembling a
certain number of troops in summer for bodily exercise.
The first vote was for £lOO,OOO. The camp, however, had
been converted into a large permanent barracks, and the

committee was called upon, this year, for £40,000 more.
The camp had been a great mistake from beginning to end.
The site selected was a swamp very difficult to drain, and

there was no supply of water. It was the dearest purchase
ever made. The Royal Engineers were set to work to open
wells in all directions only to fill them up again, and at

length they were obliged to call in a civil engineer—Mr.
Simpson—who succeeded in getting a supply of water from
two miles off and at great expense. An expense of £12,800
was afterwards gone to in gravelling the place, and he found
in the estimates of 1854-55 a grant was taken of £175,000

for temporary buildings which xi ere called huts. Those
huts were not only found to be of infamous design, but were
not even weathertight, and were obliged to be covered with
patent felt at an expense of £14,000. That, however, did
not succeed in rendering them watertight, and they were
therefore tarred. In fact the total cost of the temporary huts
had been £796,100, considerably above half-a •million of
money. Those huts were at the present moment in a state of
rottenness and decay, and he begged to ask distinctly what
the Government intended to do with respect to them. After a
time it was resolved to erect permanent barracks at Alder-
shott, at an expense of £250,000, but instead of selecting a
site which would allow of expansion, the authorities went
to the very verge of the property they had purchased, and
fixed the site in a hollow. They, however, had provided no
site for a hospital, and were therefore obliged to give the
proprietor of adjoining land £2,000 for a couple of acres for
the purpose of building a hospital. (Hear.) A town had
since :sprang up on the e.djoining property, containing
everything of a demoralising tendency. (Hear, hear.) There

never had been such a succession of blunders made as had
been made in this Aldershott business. The cookhouses
were placed under the barracks instead of being dotaohod,
and the arrangements forcooking were extremely defective.
Originally there were iron stoves erected for 20,000 men,
but they were soon condemned and sold for old iron. That
was the ca.so with the first cooking apparatus. A very able
officer of artillery—Capt. Grant—was then called upon.
Capt. Grant established a very successful cooking apparatus
for 50,000 men, but he (Mr. B. Osborne) had lately been
informed that the gallant officer's apparatus was now to be
knocked on the head, and a new official was to be intro-
duced, to be called an instructor of military cookery.
(Laughter.) This instructor of military cookery—Mr.
Warrenner—had got an apparatus put up as an experi-
ment—experiments were very costly things—(hear, hear)
—and if the experiment succeeded he (the hon. member)
supposed they would probably have another item in the
estimates for new stoves. A new system for ventilating
the barrack grates had been introduced, and some thousand
grates which had been put up at an expense of £25,000,
had, he believed, since been condemned, and sold for old
iron. He wished that some hon. member would move for
a return of the cost of all barrack stores supplied to and
condemned at Aldershott. The vote for that camp had
swollen to a million and a half, and yet they had only
25,000 men there for all that outlay. He thought
he had brought forward enough to show that it was
high time that some steps should be taken to put a stop to
such a system. (Hear, hear.) He trusted, if there was any
solid good sense in the country;or any regard in that house
for the public finances, that this example of Aldershott
would be taken as an example to be shunned, and that hon.
memlaers would not be contented year after year to vote
these enormous sums for military expenditure without
knowing whether they had got full value for their money,
and were not paying through the nose for the maintenance
of a standing army. (Hear.)
Col. NORTH thought that what the hon. gentleman had
said with regard to the expense of Aldershott was perfectly
correct.

Mr. MONSELL said it was quite true that the land for
the camp at Aldershott was purchased for £2O an acre, and
that afterwards it was necessary to incur an expense of
£26,000 for water and a considerable sum for drainage. If
there had not been certain disadvantages it would have been
impossible to have purchased it for so small a sum as £2O
an acre. It was one of the cheapest purchases that was ever
made, and he believed that if it. were put up for sale now it
would fetch more than the cost, including the expense in-
curred for water and drainage.
Col. UILPIN said at the proper time he should move
that the vote be reduced by £1,150. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAXTON denied that Sir F. Smith had had any-
thing to do with the design of the huts.

Mr. H. LEWIS said the subject brought forward by the
hon. member for Liskeard raised the question whether in
future a military camp should be laid out under the super-
intendence of military or civil engineers.
Mr. HASSAItD complained that the barracks at Water•
ford were not lighted with gas, although a main of gas ran
close in front of the building.
Capt. JERVIS said that the cheapest buildings were said

to be those that were built at the expense of the counties,

Lately in Hampshire a lunatic asylum had been built at
the cost of £l5O a head, which was considered to be a very
cheap erection ; whereas the barracks at Aldershott did not
cost more than £6O a head.

Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the large items proposed
for barracks at Chelsea, and for the purchase of land for
military purposes at Gravesend.
Col. DICKSON begged to move the reduction of the
vote of £lO,OOO for the camp at Aldershott by £7,000, be-
cause he thought it was a great mistake to have so crowded
a camp. Amongst other evils the morality of the soldier
suffered from the temptations to debauchery which assailed
him at Aldershott, a place which had become a perfect sink
of iniquity. The accounts about the great advantages of
Aldershot were one great sham. (Hear.) Looking at the
erection of stabling of a mere permanent character as a step
towards making the camp still more permanent, he moved
the reduction of the vote by £7,000.

Gen. LINDSAY contended that the hon. and gallant
gentleman who had just spoken had greatly exaggerated
the demoralisation and other circumstances connected with
the camp at Aldershott. The camp had done the country
some goed, though no doubt it had been made too much of
a permanent character.
The CHAIRMAN observed that, although the vote for
the camp was £40,000, yet the vote for the present year was
only £7,000. The amendment therefore would be that the
whole of this £7,000 be refused.

Mr. B. JOHNSON thought the £7,000 would be well
laid out in the improvement of the stables at Aldershott.
Mr. T. G. BARING defended the vote. He said there
had been several discussions in the house relative to Alder-
shott, and tha same points raised to-night by the hon. mem-
ber for Liskeard had frequently been raised and decided
upon on former occasions. No part of the vote was more re-
quired than that for the cavalry stables at Aldershott, and
he hoped the house would not agree to the reduction pro-
posed.

Col. KNOX supported the amendment for the reduction
of the vote. He was anxious to know what Government
proposed to do with the huts at Aldershott.

Lord PALMERSTON thought the discussion had taken
a wider range than belonged t the vote proposed to the
committee. They had been discussing whether they ought
to have bought a large tract of land for general movements
of the troops, and whether.it was expedient to have per-
manent barracks upon the land or use huts in lieu of
barracks, and they had been discussing the question
whether the command of the troops should be conti-
nued for a certain time to certain officers, or whether
changed frequently for the better instruction of officers.
No doubt these were interesting topics to hon. gentlemen
who wished to discuss them, but they did not belong to the
voto before them, which was one for the moderate sum of
£7,000 for the purpose of building stabling. The argument
of the hon. member for Liskeard (Mr. B. Osborne) went the
length of recommending that the whole thing should be
broken up and the land sold, the hutspulled down, and sold
for firewoood, and the barracks converted to other uses.
If the hon. gentleman would make a distinct proposition to
the committee they would have something to discuss, but
at present he hoped the committee would not be led away
from the question before them to discuss these general
questions, which had nothing to do with it. (Hear, hear.)
He wondered that his hon. friend the member for Liskeard
should doubt the expediency of establishing a camp at Al-
dershott. The British Government had taken the hint from
the French camp at Boulogne ; and the French, in their
turn, taking example from Aldershott, established a much
larger camp at Chalons, and the expense ©f that camp was
much greater than ours. Another object ion was, that the
establishment of the camp at Aldershott led to immorality
on the part of the men. But were they to put them in a
desert ? What was Portsmouth, or London, or any other
place where soldiers were quartered? The great complaint
against Aldershott was that it was too lonely—that there
were no amusements for the men. Again, it was urged
that they had pitched their camp at a great expense
in wild and uncultivated ground, but did gentlemen
think that they should have purchased 9,000 acres
of arable land to be levelled and laid out as a crimp?
He trusted that under all the circumstances the
house would see the propriety of giving the means of com-
pleting the Artillery Barracks, which were confessed to be
SO necessary for the camp.
Lord J. MANNERS wished to know whether the effect
of the vote would be to give increased accommodation for
the horses. In his time a case had occurred in which for
want of space the horses of the Blues had to be placed in
stables which had been previously occcupied by glandered
horses. •

Mr. BARING was understood to say that it would have
have that effect.

Mr. OSBORNE contended that he was quite in order in
going into the general question. When ho brought the
subject before the house on a previous occasion, ho was
told to wait for the present as the proper time; now he
was told that this was not the time, lie was not surprised

to hear the noble lord defend Aldershott, which was in fact
his own child. His hon. friend the Under Secretary re-
minded him that he (Mr. Osborne) had voted for Alder-
shott when in office. So he had, it was true, but nobody
knew better that in the case of subordinate officials,
" Suffering was the badge of all our tribe." (Loud laugh•-
ter.) He contended that the camp was originally intended
to be a camp for 4,000 men, and to be a camp for exercise
in summer, but not as a permanent camp for a large body
of troops.
Mr. JOHNSTONE said that the hon. member had mis-
quoted and mis-stated everything he had said. (A laugh.)

Lord PALMERSTON said that his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Liskeard asserted that he (Lord Palmerston) denied
to the house the right of discussing the general question of
the policy of Aldershott, and insisted that hon. members
should confine themselves to the stables. He had done no
such thing, but had merely said that the vote was for the
stables. He must say that his hon. and gallant friend ex-
cited the deepest compassion. He had described his extreme
suffering when in office on being called upon to agree to
this vote. It was really lamentable to think of all he had
gone through, but it was refreshing now to see how he in-
demnified himself for all that privation. (Laughter.) The
burst of freedom and volubility of opinion with which his
hon. friend had came out that evening could be compared
to nothing but the thawing of Baron Munchausen's post-
horn—(loud laughter)—the harmony of which having been
frozen up during a long winter came out strong,if not sweet,
at the approach of the spring, when, like the hon. member,
it was released from the icy fetter of office. (Laughter.)
He trusted his hon. friend would not suppose that he (Lord
Palmerston) meant only to nibble at his arguments. His
hon. friend might set his mind easy on that head ; he
begged to contradict everything his hon. friend had stated.
Mr. OSBORNE complained of being made the victim of
an old joke, and said the real question was, whether they
were to squander a million and a half on this camp.
Lord PALMERTSON admitted that he had, in 1857,
stated a limit for Aldershott, but asserted that that limit
was somewhere about the same as the actual establishment.
After a conversation the committee divided—
For the amendment
Against it

Majority ...

Mr. CHILDERS said with respect to the barracks at
Colchester he wished to ask for some explanation as to the
manner in which this vote had very much increased.
Sir F. SMITH also wished to know what they wanted
with an enormous establishment at Gravesend, costing
£60,000, while they had Chatham within seven or eight
miles, where there were ample means of teaching soldiers
to fire ball cartridge.

Mr. T. BARING said with regard to Colchester what
was put on the estimate was perfectly clear. The first item
was £lO,OOO, which was part of £60,000, the total esti-
mated cost. Nothing further was proposed for Colchester
this year, and he knew nothing of the magnificent scheme
the hon. member for Pontefract spoke of.
Mr. OSBORNE moved that the vote of £20,000 for the
establishment of rifle ranges, the cost of the hotel at Alder-
shot and other matters, be reduced by £lO,OOO.
The amendment was put and negatived without a division.
General LINDSAY called attention to the improvements
which might be introduced into the system of military cook-
ing by the general use of Captain Grant's apparatus.

Lord FERMOY moved that the chairman should report
progress.
Mr. MONSELL concurred in the motion.

Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would allow this
vote to be taken. One vote had been under discussion since
nine o'clock, and if they went oa reporting progress in this
manner it was impossible to say when the session would
come to an end.

The motion for reporting progress was negatived with-
out a division.

Mr. BRUCE proposed the reduction of the vote by
£15,000 for the increase of the military college of Sand-
hurst.

Mr. BARING said it was not proposed that this should
be a special college for education for any length of time,
like Woolwich ; but the new system would not come into
operation till 1863, and further details would be furnished
with respect to it.

Lord FERMOY said that Government were asking the
house to agree to a vote upon the disposal of which they
had not themselves made up their minds. He thought the
better way would be to postpone the vote.
Mr. BARING said that in 1863 all direct commissions
would cease, and candidates would havo to be previously
educated in Sandhurst. The Commander-in-Chief and the
Minister for War were anxious to commence preparations
as soon as possible.

Mr, CONINGHAM wished to know whether pupils
would be admitted by competition or nomination.
Mr. T. G, BARING said that each candidate would take
his turn on the list.

Sir L. PALK moved that the committee report progress.
Motion negatived.

Mr. BRUCE moved that £15,000 for Sandhurst be omitted
from the vote.

Mr. FITZGERALD was in favour of further discussion
on this vote. The Government had in reality given the house
no information as to the mode in which officers were in
future to be admitted into the army.
Mr. AYRT ON appealed to the Under-Secretary to omit
this item from the whole vote.

Mr. BARING suggested that the discussion might be
taken on the education vote.
The committee divided—

For the amendment 49

Against it
Colonel GILPIN moved that the vote for sanitary pur-
poses be reduced by £1,150.
Mr. BARING defended the vote.
Colonel DICKSON moved that the chairman report pro-
gress.

Lord PALMERSTON was sure the house must feel there
was nothing more important than the preservation of the
health of the army. It was a subject of constant complaint
that the arrangements with regard to the soldier's health
had not been such as to give general satisfaction. He
thought no money could be better 'laid out than that which
was devoted to guarding the soldier against injury to health.
Tho motion for reporting progress was negatived without
a division.

The committee then divided on the amendment—
Ayes
Noes
After some conversation,
The vote was agreel to, and the Chairman reported pro-
gress.