The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-12 00:00:00

TEMPERANCE.

Lor3 BROUGHAM presented a petition from the mem-
bers of the Temperance Societies in the United Kingdom,
praying for an amendment of the law relating to licensing.
The petition was numerously signed, and had been presented
to the other house. The noble and learned lord detailed
some of the evils of the existing law.
The following bills were read a second time :
Snell's Estate, Clifton Suspension, Edinburgh and Glas-
go,a Railway, Workington Tidal Basin and Railway,
Galashiels and Peebles Railway, Enniskillen and Bun-
doran Railway Bills.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Eland Gas ; Portadown, Dungannon, and Omagh Junction
Railway ; Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (New Line) ;
Leeds and Eeland Road; Wycombe Railway (Extension);
Midland Railway (additional powers) ; Manchester, Shef-
field, and Lincolnshire Railway (additional works).
THE BOROUGH OF DUBLIN BILL.
This bill went through committee.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL.

The Duke of SOMERSET in moving the second reading
of the Greenwich Hospital Bill, said he would very briefly
state its objects. Their lordships would remember that three
years ago an inquiry was ordered into the revenues and
management of the hospital. The report made was of some
length, and, generally, it showed that some amendment in
the system of management of the hospital was desirable. A
comparison had been made of the relative cost of the main-
tenance of pensioners in France and England. It appeared
that the annual cost of the maintenance of a pensioner in
France was £3l; in Greenwich Hospital it was £5O. But
the cost of the administration of the system in France was
only Li per head, while the expense of the administration
of Greenwich Hospital was £2B 18s. per head. This proved
that some better syetem of administration was required.
The hospital was founded in 1694, under a charter from
William and Mary, for the relief of disabled seamen and
other purposes. The sum of £230,000 was annually voted to
the institution by Parliament, which, therefore, contributed
-very liberally to its object. By the present bill it was pro-
posed to place the hospital under a new executive council
and one civil commissioner, to be appointed for five years.
The accounts relating to the hospital and the large estate
belonging to the institution were to be annually passed
through the Audit-office and brought under the direct con-
trol of Parliament. In moving the second reading he wished
to state that there were some amendments which he wished
to introduce into the bill, and therefore he should ask the
house to allow it to pass through committee pro forma, in
order that it might be reprinted, and he hoped that all dis-
cussion would be deferred for the present.
The bill was read a second time without any discussion.
GOVERNMENT OF THE NAVY BILL.

The Duke of SOMERSET moved the third reading of
this bill.
The Earl of CARNARVON wished to say a few worde
upon a subject that was somewhat akin to this measure. A
few days since a right hon. friend of his (Sir J. Pakington)
made a statement in the House of Commons which had
attracted considerable notice. The right hon. gentleman
called attention to the great disproportion that existed be-
tween the English and the French navies in respect of iron-
cased ships, and stated that while we might have by the
close of the year six or seven of those vessels the French
Government would have a number little if anything short of
26. He might have added that within the last two months
the French Government had issued orders for the construc-
tion of a large number of steel or iron boats, which would
be capable of being taken to pieces and put together again
with great rapidity, affording enormous facilities for disem-
barking troops upon an enemy's coast. Now, it was true
that France might be engaged in war with many European
nations, but it was obvious that with other nations these
steel launches would be totally useless. Mostof the warlike
operations of France would be land operations, and as expe-
rience of the Italian war had shown, most likely would be
conducted In
a frioadiy 001.1.1.41,7 kenewrera-,
the point to which he wished to call the attention of the
Government. He understood that the French dockyards,
both public and private, were at this moment occupied not
solely in constructing French ships of war. He understood
that both the Italian and Spanish Governments were hav-
ing iron-cased ships built in France, and he was further in-
formed that there were at this moment near Toulon two
sister ships to La Gloire, which had been ordered by the
Italian Government, and which were rapidly approaching
completion. It was stated that two other ships of the same
character had been ordered and the lines laid down. The
Spanish Government was understood to be taking similar
measures, and four ships had been already commenced,while
negotiations were pending for the construction of others. It
had been calculated, as he conceived, upon very reasonable
grounds, that before the close of the year there would be a
great accession of strength to the naval forces of Spain and
Italy in the shape of iron-cased vessels. No one could feel
any jealousyat this accession of strength on the part of those
countries regarded by themselves ; but if the supposition of
a combination of those powers with France were admitted,
the question was at once changed, and sucha state of things
must be regarded as pregnant with danger, at least to our
naval position in the Mediterranean. But while foreign
Governments had been proceeding steadily in the course
they had marked out we had been acting precipitately, and
had been constantly changing our policy as to the construc-
tion of ships. He himself recollected that within the last
seven or eight years there had been four distinct changes of
policy on the part of the Admiralty. Before the Crimean
war large ships of war were held up as the great safeguards
of the country. During the Crimean war a cry arose for
gunboats, and they were built in large numbers, only, in
many instances, to rot in the dockyards. The gunboat fever
then died out, and large ships were again resorted to, until
• within the last two years, when the system was modified
bytiit within
the vessels in iron. He understood, however,
la
ithin the last few days some invention had been dis-
covered
by Sir IV. Armstrong by which his guns could be
brought to bear with such force and accuracy that the
strongest iron plate would be pulverized by it. He did not
seek to attribute blame to the Admiralty, because it would
be unreasonable to suppose that the system of naval archi-
tecture could always remain the same, unaffected by modern
inventions. But what he did complain of was the wasteful
expenditure which sometimes o
instance
adminis-
tration of the Board of Admiralty.
ABan under
his own knowledge he would mention the circumstances within
con-
nected with a dock at Malta. About 13 years ago
the A-
dmiralty ordered the construction of a dock in that island, at
a cost of about £60,000 or £70,000 ; but it was built on the
worst possible place, at the extremity of a creek, and ex-
posed to the wash of the sea, caused by the tremendous
storms of the Mediterranean. Then, again, it was con-
structed not on Crown land, but upon private property, and
was surrounded by houses, so that in the event of war or
disaffection it would be in the power of an enemy to destroy
it. The work itself was bad, the stones after a short time
opened,the whole dock settled, and it became evident that its
disappearance was only a question of time. It might naturally
boasked, did not the Admiralty inquire into these facts ?
They did inquire, and were told that the mischief was attribu-
table to an earthquake that had occurred at Malta. It was
true that there had been an earthquake, but the collapse of
the work took place two or three years before that earth-
quake happened; so that at this moment the dock was in
such a state of decay that the first heavy gale might bring
down the whole of the masonry. About two years since the
Admiralty, seeing that this dock had been built for ships of
a smaller size than we now used, wisely determined to con-
struct a second dock. For that purpose £60,000 had been
taken in the Estimates, and another vote was proposed to
be taken thia year, which would bring the entire amount to
£83,000 ; but, although they had been warned by the expo •
rience of the past—although they had seen the mistakes into
which they had fallen hi regard to the first dock—incredible
as it might appear, they actually constructed the second
*dock precisely in the same place, and open to precisely the
same objections, as the first. It was not merely surrounded
by privateproperty, but was built through and behind the
dock originally erected. There was consequently no access
to
the larger dock, except through the outer and smaller
0110, and therefore a large part of the additional space thus
obtained was literally useless. That reminded him of the
story of
the man who cut one hole to admit the cat and
another to admit the kitten. No ship could enter the
inner dock if it was too
wide for the other; and if in a
severe tempest the work fell in, the whole of these two
docks would be completely closed for five months , and that,
perhaps, at a period of extreme emergency. The steps of
the inner dock had been
b
projected to such a width that when
the work was done no large
n.
wtroeerimed vessel could rest there.
Last winter the workme
work that had been done at engaged in undoing the
a ote
of the public money:
It was proposed at first to separateßl sacrifice
these two docks by a
sliding caisson, but representations having been ad
to
them against that plan, tate Admiralty gave
way, amnde
sub-
stituted an order to erect the usual dock gates. Suddenly,
however, without rhyme 'or reason, a counter-order was is-
sued one fine morning, : sz d the plan for a sliding caisson
was restored. In the ev eat of a war with France—which
God forbid—and still n acre if France were supported by
Italy and Spain, it wafr morally certain there must be a

great naval engagement in the Mediterranean. In that case
unless our arms were crowned with one of those overwhelm-
ing victories of which there were a few instances in our
history, both fleets must obviously put back to their respec-
tive ports for repairs. The French fleet could go to Toulon,
and would perhaps be again afloat in three weeks. The Ita-
lians could refit at Genoa, Spezzia, or some other harbour on
their own coast ; while the Spaniards could conveniently do
the same at Carthagena or elsewhere. But what would be
the case with our own fleet ? With the works at Malta in
the ruinous state which he had described, we might not ,
have a dock in the Mediterranean ready to receive it, and we
should have to send every ship across the Bay of Biscay to be
repaired at home. Observe the danger that must thus ensue
to ships disabled and in a half sinking condition, the risk of
their being intercepted on the way, and the certainty of the
enemy obtaining the command of the Mediterranean in our
absence. These were matters which must suggest them-
selves to every reasonable mind that reflected at all on this
subject. He did not wish to impute any special blame to
her Majesty's Government or to the noble duke at the head
of the Admiralty, but he ascribed the evils to which he hod
called attention rather to the vicious system of incessant
change and weak vacillation which characterised so much
of the naval administration of this country. (Hear, hear.)
The Duke of SOMERSET (who was indistinctly heard)
said—The noble earl first called your lordships' attention to
the question of iron-cased ships, and referred to a speech
lately made in the other house, founded on information fur-
nished to a right hon. baronet by Admiral Elliot. Admiral
Elliot went to France, and applied, through the English
Minister there, for leave to visit the dockyards of that
country, in the same way as French officers have often ap-
plied for leave to visit our dockyards. His request was ac-
ceded to with the civility which the French authorities would
naturally desire to show in such a case. Admiral Elliot
went, and saw all that was going on in those establishments;
but I must confess that, under the circumstances, I sincerely
regret the course which he took on his return to England.
If I myself had given a French officer permission to view
our dockyards, and I afterwards found that he took the first
opportunity of publishing the results of his inspection in
the the
gallant admiral, I certainly should
not veryfriendly act, (Hear, hear.) At
information brought by Admiral mannerthink
he adoptedhaalldd the
oy
a
the same time
El-
liot was only what we knew before. We were well aware of
the progress that had been made in regard to the building
of iron-cased ships in France; and we had taken some
measures, since our accession to office, for the construction
of iron ships ourselves. The house is aware that the French
had a considerable start of us in this respect. The late Go-
vernment was in power in 1858, when it was perfectly well
known what France was doing in the way of building iron-
cased vessels, but they took no step in the matter till May,
1859. Certainly some time was lost in these operations,
which was all the more important because the opportunity
of making actual trial of this class of ships was de-
layed. We have not yet been able to make trial of
I the first iron-cased frigate, although in a few weeks one
will be in commission, and we shall then have more
practical results than any we have yet obtained. When
the present Government came into office, we found
only one of those vessels laid down, and a sum taken in the
Estimates for another. We immediately ordered a third,
and, not satisfied with that, although Parliament was not
then sitting, I brought before the Admiralty the necessity
of at once ordering two more. I did not wish to go on build-
ing these ships until their effect had been tested, but, seeing
the progress made by other countries, I thought we ought
not to be unprovided with this class of vessels. Although
we were necessarily ignorant on many points of detail, I
did propose again to build three, which accordingly were
commenced. We have therefore now seven of these ships
in the course of completion. We are now preparing some
of our wooden ships for plating with iron. Ido not think
they will be very efficient; but these ships will be at least
as good as the French. My opinion is, that we ought really
to construct our ships of iron; but the whole subject is one
of great difficulty. Every day brings out new points and
new difficulties. When I came into office two things came
upon us at once—novelty in shipbuilding and novelty in
the construction of our guns. I came into office in 1859.
The late Government had ordered the Warrior to be built,
but had calculated that it would carry the old style of ar-
mour. It was not calculated for the new style of rifled guns,
but for the old style of armour. When I came into office I
naturally called the attention of the Board to these subjects.
With regard to iron ships, I saw various persons, naval
men having a knowledge of engagements at sea and men of
great experience in shipbuilding, with the view of acquir-
ing all the knowledge ,that could be had on the subject.
They said their opinion was that we should build ships of
thin iron, so as if it were impossible to keep out shot to keep
out shell. I said before doing so I should like to have some
experiments tried. We had some experiments at Ports-
mouth, and one of the first was upon an iron target of less
than an inch thick. The result was that round shot, in
striking the iron, broke into pieces, but passed on into the
vessel, and 700 pieces of iron were picked up inside the ship.
That showed that round shot produced as bad an effect as
any shell. It seemed, therefore, that merely to case with
thin iron would be to expose men-of-war to as great de-
struction as possible, while they were loading the ship with
unnecessary weight. We had no end of suggestions and
redommendations. Some people recommended indiarubber,
.4.1........ 41.101. a..Hine of hemp, 0ti5......h.h, armour- The
answer I sent to these gentlemen was that, if they would
send their experiments to Portsmouth, we would try them.
I myself saw chain armour tried, and the very first shot de-
stroyed it. Indiarubber and hemp were equally ineffective.
Last year it was said we should slope the sides of vessels,
and shot striking at an angle would glide off; but when we
came to try Sir William Armstrong's bolts, the slope made
no difference at all, That was the last answer I received
from Sir William Armstrong. Then it was said that the
iron should be 41 inches thick. I was rather doubtful
whether that would be sufficient. I ordered the vessel to
be laid down at Chatham to have such flotation that she
might carry at least 6 inches of iron. I thought 6 inches
tolerably safe. I now find that Sir Wm. Armstrong's guns
have fired through 8-inch iron with the greatest facility.
(Hear.) In building these iron vessels it is a great problem
where we are to stop. Thin iron won't do ; thick iron is
very little better. It is therefore very difficult to say how
we are to make our vessels safe. One fact is clear, and to
that we have chiefly addressed ourselves—namely, if we
cannot make ourselves so secure as we could wish, at least
we should arm them with as good weapons of offence as
possible, and by ordering that our ships should be armed
with Armstrong guns we felt that we were taking a course
which would produce the greatest effect, while, at least, it
would be a safe mode of proceeding. With regard to these
different experiments, the noble lord says the Admiralty
have always been changing their policy. Why, my lords,
the reason is obvious. The world is changing ; alterations
are going on everywhere. So far from the Admiralty vacil-
lating, from the time we came into office we have gone on in
the course which I believe your lordships will say was the
right and proper course for us to adopt under the circum-
stances. My noble friend the other day said we were going
on building three-deckers and laying down ships of war;
but what is the fact ? The last three-decker ordered to be
built was in January, 1855. It is quite true that two three-
deckers were launched in the course of 1859, but these
three-deckers had been nearly finished for a long time ;
their engines and everything had been ordered ; it was,
therefore, thought better that they should be launched, and
thus make room for other work to be gone on with. Well,
then, it was said why do you ;re on with two-deckers ? Now
we have not been going on with two-deckers. The last
two••decker ordered was by the late Government in 1859.
The present Board have ordered none. But it is said the
Admiralty is going on ordering new large wooden ships.
Nothing of the kind. It is quite true we have ordered small
vessels, corvettes, sloops, and some frigates and gun vessels;
but if you mean to keep up the maritime power of this
country we have not yet arrived at that forward state in
which we can leave off building. We have been building
what we thought would be most useful, and we have ordered
them all to be armed with the new guns, and, instead of
coauTvinesgsetis will car
number of guns they formerly' used to do,
(Hear, h
he
ear.) Tear" few guns, but guns of great power.
which he said were rotting
armed with a 100-pounder they would be most formidable
vessels—(hear, hear)d wouldh?ammrbytiko but if these were
harbour,
defend our coasts in case of h serve most materially to
—while being themselves s lil they would present a very
slight object of attack for the enemy.
regard to what we ought ton do noble earl referred to our gunboats, i
there are two or three courses that
mi
there was any immediate necessity
—an
ostle aggression—(hear, hear)
(Rear, hear.) With
e way of preparation,
fo ght be adopted. If
readily cut down some of the three-deckr alarm, we could
s a three-deckers
in iron. I have had calculations made, and
case them
find
were to cut down, say the Royal Albert, and ca,ethe if you
vessel
in iron, it might bear 41-inch iron ; but it would not then be
a very effective ship—the ports would be too near the water,
and it would not be so good a sea-going ship as I should wish the
Admiralty to build, unless there was any pressure; for next
year we ought to build a far better ship. Another course
might to some extent be adopted. We have frames cut
out for certain line-of-battle ships. We can easily add to
the length of vessels and make effective wooden ships, which
we can use hereafter as wooden frigates or as iron-cased
ships. Anothei course would be to order frames of iron
ships to be prepared with a view to ease them with thick
iron. Then comes the question of what iron they ought to
be constructed, and the best mode of fastening the iron
plates. Every day new questions arise. lam unwilling
to advance too fast, because I feel that we can advance much
more efficiently by waiting a little longer. (Hear.) It is
only a few days since the last of these experiments took
place with 8-inch plates. I am very anxious to do all in my
power, and I have ordered 6-inch plates. I have great
doubt whether the mode of fastening the plates is satisfac-
tory. On that account, therefore, I thought a trial should
be made before we laid down the scale; and that done, we
felt we might rely on the power we have in building iron
vessels if the country at once takes it in hand. We know
what the •
private yards in this t coun ry can do. (Hear,
hear.) We shall soon produce a fleet of iron ships far
greater than allthe other Powers of Europe
besides.
i (Hear.)
stated,
It is true, as the noble earl has
the only country which is
building wooden ships to be
covered with iron. There are some being built for Russia.
I do not know where the contracts
it were taken, but contracts
are in course of execution for
One wooden ship covered with ilrosnia
has
sd alsolikewise for
Spain.heeil
built for: Sardinia, The French ahips are for the roost part

vfteotfh, easb eswt well pass
wcPiol7l(lbeen fsohiunpds mtovebreedthwiosleh
covered with, iron. Ours are iron ships with two coverings
nwhie
b.
are
eb ebl iuei
—one of teak 26 inches thick, and one of iron 4.1 inches
thick. That is how the Warrior is built, and I have no
doubt it will offer great resistance to shot and shell. Com-
plaints have been made that the Admiralty are going on
buying large quantities of timber. We must do so, and
especially we must continue to purchase considerable quan-
tities of teak, if we persist in building our ships with teak
coverings. Teak, I need hardly say, is the best timber
for that purpose, because it is of all woods the least liable to
decay. 1 hope I have made a satisfactory statement in
answer to the remarks of the noble earl.
The Earl of CARNARVON—The noble duke has said
nothing of the two ships built at Toulon for Italy, or of the
two more which are ordered.
The Duke of SOMERSET—I cannot say what is doing
in the French dockyards. I know there was an iron cased
ship built for the Sardinian Government in France, but I
believe it was built, not in any Government dockyard, but
by a private trader at Marseilles. I know nothing of the
second ship, but the noble earl may be correct in his state-
ment. All I can say is, that in the fact that iron-cased
ships have been, and are being, built for Italy and Spain, I
see no great cause for alarm. It is very natural that other
Powers should desire to advance as well as France and
England, and we have no reason for believing that either
the Italian or the Spanish ships are meant to attack us.
(Hear, hear.) At the same time, it is our duty—and espe-
cially the duty of the Admiralty—to watch the progress
that is making, to follow our own course, and to make such
preparations for maintaining the maritime position of this
country as may seem to be necessary. For that lam quite

prepared. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl, in referring to
the works going on at Malta, thought it expedient to go
back six or seven years. What has been brought to my
notice since I have been at the Admiralty with respect to
Malta is that we want more harbour accommodation there
—not merely dock accommodation, but accommodation in
the harbour for our vessels. On that subject I communi-
cated with my noble friend at the head of the ellonial-
office, and also with the local government at Malta. The con-
clusion we came to was that the Imperial Government and
the local Government should each pay half the expense of
deepening the upper part of the Great Harbour at Malta, that
the merchant vessels should be put in that portion of the
harbour, and that the lower part should be given to us as
the place most convenient for our fleet. We have sent out
vessels to dredge the upper part of the harbour accordingly,
and operations are now in progress for proving increased
accommodation for our large ships. The noble earl says
that in the event of war the French fleet after a battle would
go back to Toulon, while we could not repair our ships at
Malta. That certainly is so. The French have great ad-
vantages over us in the Mediterranean, because Toulon
affords much more ample accommodation than we have at
Malta, even taking into account the two harbours there.
Beyond those two harbours, as every one acquainted with
the ground knows, it would be impossible to extend the
accommodation, and they will hardly suffice for the fleets
of England, if we must have great fleets in the Mediterra-
n. There must be difficulties in that respect, but this
country has met difficulties before, and I have no fear that
we shall be unable to meet and overcome them again.
(Hear.) At the same time, we have taken care to enlarge
the harbour accommodation. and the local Government has
met us in a generous spirit, having agreed to pay half the
expense. We are cutting out stones for making wharfs and
piers connected with the new works, and we have given
directions that those stones shall be taken from a place
which will eventually form a canal between the two har-
tours, isolating them from the houses and private property
in the neighbourhood. I have no doubt that the improve-
ments, when completed, will prove a great advantage, not
only to our vessels of war, but also to the local Government
and the inhabitants of Malta generally. The noble duke
concluded by urging their lordships to pass the bill, stating
that, although it repealed an Act which repealed former
Acts, it would not on that account have the effect of re-

viving those repealed Acts.
Earl GREY—I am sure your lordships must have heard
the statement of the noble duke with great satisfaction.
(Hear, hear.) For my own part, instead of finding fault

With the Admiralty for being too fond of change, I am

rather disposed to blame them for being too slow in adopt-
ing improvements. What I complained of two years ago
was, not that we were adopting new inventions, but that
when new inventions had been tried, and found to a great

extent successful, we still went on building ships of the line

which it was morally certain would never be used. I ob-
jected to that in 1859, and I think I was right in doing so.
I did not mean to censure the present Board of Admiralty,
because I was ignorant as to what they were about. We
have now heard from the noble duke what is the course he

is really pursuing. I believe that course is the proper one
—not to hurry on too rapidly with new inventions until
they have been fairly tried, but, on the other hand, when
there are new inventions which hold out every prospect of
being successful, not to continue spending money in build-
ing vessels which is all probability will be useless ; to
make arrangements for the rapid creation, in case of neces-
sity, of a large force of that description of vessels which
will be most wanted and most serviceable, but not, under
the influence of panic, to proceed too fast in the construe-
d.... of ship" 1441.1inh mill not 1.1" 1.11,"Ip 4."
add tnat I was extremely glad to hear what the noble duke

stated with respect to gunboats and the smaller class 01

vessels. It is obviously not wise, in the face of the extra..
ordinary improvements which are constantly being made in
modern artillery, to build enormous ships in which a very
large number of men would be exposed to certain destruc-
tion. I think the smaller kind of vessels, armed with Arm-
strong guns, will prove the most useful we could have; and
in a recent visit to Portsmouth nothing gave me so much
satisfaction as to see our fine fleet of gunboats in such a
state of preparation. In the event of any sudden attack
there is no force on which we could so safely rely as upon
these gunboats, armed with rifled guns. (Hear, hear.)
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
WILLS OF PERSONALTY BY BRITISH
SUBJECTS BILL.

The report of amendments was brought up and received,

CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL.

Earl GRANVILLE moved the third reading of this bill

The Earl of WICKLOW rose to call attention to the
hardships which the British papermaker would labour
under as long as difficulties were thrown in the way of the
importation of foreign rags. He found from the reports in
the public press that it had been stated by the gentleman
who had been mainly instrumental in carrying out the
commercial treaty with France, and when he had urged
upon the French Government the expediency of allowing
the free exportation of rags, the answer returned was that
they were then engaged in negotiating a commercial treaty
with Belgium, and until that treaty had been concluded
they could take no steps in the matter. The objection then
made upon the part of the French Government had, how-
ever, now no ground upon which to rest, inasmuch as he
found that the treaty between France and Belgium had
been concluded. He hoped, therefore, her Majesty's Minis-
ters would be able to inform the house that further steps
had been taken with a view of obviating an injustice to
which the papermakers of this country were still subjected,
owing to the difficulty which lay in the way of their procur-
ing the raw material of their manufacture.
Earl GRANVILLE said that urgent representations had
been made to the Governments of the various countries
from which rags were exported with respect to removing the
very high dutyon their exportation which at present existed.
The treaty to which the noble earl alluded as having been
concluded between Belgium and France gave, he believed,
considerably increased facilities in that respect, but he
hoped the Government would be in a position before long to
give some more satisfactory assurance on the subject. A
point, perhaps, of even greater importance was, that there
should be a systematic collection of rags in this country—
an organisation in which he had been informed by an emi-
nent papermaker we were entirely deficient.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
RAGGED SCHOOLS.

The Earl of SHA.FTESBURY, in moving for a return
of the names of the witnesses who gave evidence respecting
ragged schools before the Education Commissioners, re •
peated his complaints of the manner in which ragged schools
had been treated by the Commissioners.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE defended the commis-
sioners. They had merely stated that, in comparison with
the higher schools, they were not entitled to grants of pub-
lic money. The return would be a difficult one to obtain,
but if the noble earl particularly wished it, he would try to
get it.

The subject then dropped, on the understanding that all
the information possible would be given to the noble earl
on the subject.

Their lordahi pa then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY.

The SPEAREntook the chair at 12 o'clock.
CONSOLIDATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the house
do go into committee on the bills on the paper relative to
the proposed consolidation, the whole being reported at the
resumpti.,ll of the house at 6 o'clock.
Mr. AYHTON said that the first of these bills contained
a proposition of such magnitude that it had the effect on a
former occasion of changing the Government of the day.
He concurred in such a sitting as the present, but ho hoped
the substantive questions the bills involved would be re-
served for a subsequent decision of the house.

OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON BILL.
This bill passed through :committee, with some alight
verbal amendments.
LARCENY BILL.

This bill, consisting of upwards of 120 clauses, passed
through committee.
MALICIOUS INJURIES TO PROPERTY BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
Clauses up to 12 were agreed to.

On clause 13 being proposed,
Mr. M‘MAIION said in the select committee be pro-
posed that this clause should be omitted, but without suc-
cess, as his objection still held, and the result of the
clause would be to remove to a criminal court disputes
between landlord and tenant which had hitherto been con-
sidered in a civil court, he hoped the committee would
strike out the clause.

The SOLICIT-011-GENERAI4 defended the clause. It