The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-06 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

On the sum of 462,453/.7in addition to the sum of
231,0001. previously granted on account) being proposed
to he granted to defray the expenses of barracks at home
and abroad,
Ccpt. VIVIAN complained of the vote proposed for
the camp at Aldershot, the amount of which he con-
fessed struck him with txtreme surplice. Chobbarn
proved a much better place than Aldershot for the eol-
diers to learn the rudiments of their military duties. He
should like to know wh) was the person responsible for
seLcting the site of Aldershot ; but it seemed that no-
body could be found to take this responsibility upon
him.aThe young pottier would liter ally learn nothing
of his military duties there. (Hear, hear.) If the Go-
vernment reduced the army to a pence establishment,
they would not require permanent barracks. He ob-
jected to Aldershot both in a strategical and economi-
cal point of view, and also as a point of policy, and
therefore, he should move to reduce tbe vote by 50,000/.1
for this year, and next year ho shouleimove to refer the
matter to a select committee.
Sir F. SMITH considered that it would not be wise
to arrest the progress of these large bTaildinge at the pre-
sent moment. Aldershot was first occupied with a view
to bringing together the greet body the militia of the
country. Ho believed that 30,000 of the militia volun-
teered at Aldershot to proceed to the, Crimea. Great

good had resulted from the establishment of the barracks,
and their completion was a matter of siund policy.
Gen. WINDHAM was understood to sly that be ob-
jected t.) a permanent barracks at Aldersho►, but pre-
ferred hutting the soldiers.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY would support the reduction
of the vote. It was most extraordinary when they con-
sidered what uiasses of money they had voted dur-
ing the last; seven years for barracks ; 513,0001. was
voted last year, exclusively of the sum of 143,0001. voted
for the Crimean huts. The barracks at Aldershot at first
were estimated to cost 250,000/., but now they were
asked to grant 150,000/. more. Were the committee
serious in hying out this large sum upon Aldershot
He felt strongly upon the matter, and should therefore
vote for the reduction.

Mr. DRUMMOND said the house ought to have some
one man, with a name to him, who was responsible for
this expenditure. Money was voted on account, and the
house never know how it was expended, nor who was
responsible for it. The most frightful mistakes had
been made in the drainage of Aldershot, in the first in-
stance, and then it turned out that there was no water.
(A. laugh.) Then they began to complain that they
had no water, and they got 10,000/. more for it. But
so little did the Secretary for War profit by his experi-
ence, that in last November cavalry were sent to Alder-
shot without any place having been prepared for them ;
and the consequence was that the men got dysentery
and the horses died. In addition to this, the camp was
becoming such a cesspool of immorality, that it would
be necessary in another year to build a wall round
it, if they wished to preserve discipline amongst the
troops. (A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but he be-
lieved that an estimate would be presented to them next
year for such a wall. The fact was that no good would
be done until they had some responsible person to ap-
peal to.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he was responsible
for Aldershot, and that Lord Hardinge had entirely con-
curred with him in the propriety of its establishment.
It was urged that they should have chosen Chobham,
but Chobhain was enclosed, and Aldershot also would
have heen enclosed had not the government purchased
it at the ♦ery low rate of 131. the acre. He accepted
the responsibility, and he believed that nothing could
have been more calculated to make our army acquainted
with every branch of its duty. It was also intended to
build barracks there, as it was a military station of im-
mense importance, with a ♦iew to the defence of the
country, should such defence ever unfortunately become
neceasary. Therefore it was part of the original inten-
tion to build barracks for 4,000 infantry, 1,500 cavalry,
and two or three batteries of artillery, and if these bar-
racks were more expensive than formerly, it was through
the recommendations of that house, in favour of greater
comforts and amusements for both officers and men. As
to the health, he believed that Aldershott was the most
salubrious station in the kingdom ; and with respect to
morality, of this he was sure, that the morality would be
much higher in bat racks than at billets. It was intended
in summer to have a large body of troops, chiefly of mi-
litia when out for training, there, and the object would
be to teach them to move and act in large bodies. The
huts were not the remnants of the last war, but had all
been erected for the purpose. He trusted, therefore,
that the house would not be led away by vague decla-
mation about the defects of Aldershot, but wool look
upon it as what it was, an expedient for making our
army practically efficient. He had stated that we were
the only great power in Europe that did not encamp our
troops ; but how did they do it ? By hiring ground,
which in this country would soon be found too expen-
sive to be satisfactory to the house. Aldershot had
been bought cheap, and was admirably suited to the
purp se intended.
Major WORTLEY briefly alluded to the defects of
Aldershot, and supported the amendment.
Mr. S. HERBERT supported the vote, and defended
the selection of Aldershot. As to the quality of the
Rater, it should he recollected that all the good ground
in England was under cultivation, and that therefore it
was only a dry, sandy scrub, like Aldershot, that was
available for the purpose. All they could do was to get
the best land possible and make the best of it. Neither
had they barracks enough in England, and hence the
number of diseases to which young sol tiers were sub-
ject. On every ground he thought that the establish-
ment of Aldershot would tend greatly to increase the
efficiency of our army, His only hope was that the
Government would not make their staffs too large, and
thus raise an outcry against what was a very great im-
provement o❑ the present system.
Lord H. V. TEMPEST supported the amendment.
He should be prepared to support a motion for refusing
the vote altogether.

Mr. TITE considered that the land which the Go-
vernment had purchased at Aldershot was worth a great
deal more than had been paid for it, and the mistakes
that had been committed in the hutting and drainage
wore natural under the circumstances. The contracts
had been properly entered into, and, upon the whole, be
could see no reason for finding fault with reducing the
vote.

Mr. HENLEY complained that the noble lord had not
answered the question of the hon. member for Surrey
(Mr. Drummond), what the, expense of Aldershot was
to be, or whether this 400,0001. would be the whole cost
or not, nor did he believe that the noble lord, the admi-
nistrative reformer; who had just spoken, or any member
of the Government, could say bow many hundred thou-
sands the country would be called to pay for it. Unless
further information were given as to the extent of the
scheme and the ultimate expense, he should be disposed
to vote for the amendment. He thought the house re-
quired also some information in reference to the charge
of 20,0001. for a site for its army clothing depot at
Weedon. That was a large sum for a site, and he should
like to know what further sum was intended to be spent
in buildings.
Lord PALMERSTON repeated the statement as to
the number of troops for whom the permanent barracks
were to be provided.
Mr. HENLEY—The noble lord has not now said any.
thing about the expense.
Lord PALMERSON was not able to say what the
whole expense would be, but the sum stated was the
amount of the contracts for the construction of all the
barrack accommodation it was intended to provide.
Sir H. VERNEY supported the vote.
Colonel KNOX thought the extravagance that had
taken place with regard to Aldershot was extreme. Ho
wisbed to know whether, when the barracks were com-
pleted, the huts would be retained, seeing that they
would occasion a constant expense. He called a' tention
to the Portman-street barrack, which he said was a dis-
grace to the department. The London barracks, beyond
all others, ought to be carefully kept in order. The bar-
racks of Aldershot were complete in all their arrange.
ments, and he hoped they would be made the model of
all future barracks.
Sir DE LACY EVANS concurred in thinking that
before new barracks were constructed at vast expense at
Aldershot it would be as well to look to the state of the
barracks in London. Before this enormous expenditure
is incurred, Portman-street barracks ought, at leait, to
be put in a proper condition. He had been surprised to
hear from the hon. member for Buckingham (Sir H.
Verney) that the barracks at Aldershott were of the
greatest possible importance—that they were designed
for the defence of the metropolis, and indeed of our
southern coast. (Hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gentle.
man was evidently mislead by the brilliant oratory of
the noble viscount (Lord Palmerston), who had dilated
on the transport of troops from Alderihot to Ports-
mouth and Plymouth, until any one would have fancied
our shores on the eve of being invaded. That, however,
was altogether a delusion. If we were really in danger
of invasion, undoubtedly some central spot, perhaps at
Aldershot or some large tract of land near Sendhur: t,
would be convenient for the assembling of a large
body of troops, and if a seeps d'armee were placed
there capable oebeing transferred rapidly from one point
to another a valuable strategical object might be gained.
But when this was made the excise for demanding
400,0001. to build barracks for some 4,000 or 5,000 men,
he said that this was trifling with their juegment. (Hear,
hear.) Whnt could such a small corps do The accom-
modation which was not sufficient for the concentration
of a larger body than that could only enable our troops
to play at soldiers. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for
Lambeth had recommended that the whole of these esti-
mates should be submitted to a committee, a course
which might be advantageously adopted without neces-
sarily tying the hands of the Executive in the mean-
time. The noble lord spoke of the purchase of ground
for practising our troops in large divisions, but that was
only a diminutive item in this charge. It was very doubt-
ful whether the large outlay that had been made for huts
erected of fragile material was a prudent expenditure.
For this purpose alone, up to the middle of last year, no
less a sum than 400,0001. bad been spent. Other items
raised the outlay to nearly 800,0001., and the aggregate
charge would probably approach to 1,000,0001. sterling.
This expenditure had escaped the proper scrutiny of
Parliament, because everybody's attention had been en•
grossed by the war in the Crimea ; but now that peace
was restored come curb ought to be put upon it. He
had supported the Government the other night in their
proposition for putting our great maritime depots in the
best possible state of defence—not that he seriously con-
templated any danger of invasion, that was entirely out
of the question—but because those establishments ought
to be secure against all accidents. It the country were
really in any danger it could not be protected by a small
force of 5,000 men from Aldershot. No sane foreign Go-
vernment would venture to assail this country with less
than 200,000 men, or without a conviction that but a
small proportion of their army would ever return to its
native shores. (Hear.) The noble viscount was all-
powerful in that house, and would doubtless be able to re-
ject this amendment; but, if there was any considerable
manifestation of feeling that night aisainet this reckless
expenditure, the Government might -be induced to prac•
tice greater circutuspectian and economy. The retention
of our troops in huts during the winter months could
only increase the difficulty of recruiting the army, with.
out serving any useful purpose. lie was glad, therefore,
that it was to be discontinued.
Sir J. PAK INGTON mid that he felt very much
disposed to vote with his lion. and gallant friend the
member for lledmin, unless the Government gave some
assurance as to what was likely to be the cost of the
barracks at Aldershot. He, as a civilian, was very much
disposed to doubt the propriety of having barracks at
Aldershot at all. There was another entry to which he
would call the attention of the committee. 150,0001.
was the original estimate for the hospital at Netley,
whereas it appeared by a marginal note that the real ex-
pense would amount to 260,0001. Here was an increase
of 110,0001. He cited this instance to show that the
estimates could not be relied on. Again, there was an
entry of 6,000/. for draining at Aldershot. He would
ask why was not this expense borne by the soldiers
themselves? Ife found another entry of 40,0001. for
building barracks ?,t Dover for 40 officers.
Mr. DRUMMOND—Medimval barracks. (Laughter.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—His hon. friend spoke of their