The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-12 00:00:00

DUCHY OF LANCASTER.

Mr. WISE sailed the attention of the house to the
acc .nuts of the Duchy of Lancaster, presented to Parlia-
ment in pursuance of the Act 1 and 2 Vic. o. 101, and
moved an address for a return of all manors and
eseetee now belonging to the Crown in right of the
Duchy of Lancaster ; of all sales, grants, and enfran-
chisemente which bad taken piece since 1838 ; of the
purchases and exchanges of land which had been since
the same period, and the date and term of all existing
leases of the lards, mines, and rents of the Duchy. He
had taken a great interest in this matter for many
years, and in 1844 had moved for a return upon the sub-
ject, which, however, he had not obtained, it being al-
leged that there was so troleh private property involved
that he might as well ask for a return of any private
member's rent-roll. He had come to the conclusion that
Parliament bad adopted it as a convenient doctrine that
when Parliament wanted anything from the Duchy of
Lancaster, it was declared to be private property, but
that when the duchy wanted anything from Parliament,
then the• property became public. He- found, on look-
ing into the history of the duchy, that the first Duke of
Lancaster, Henry IV., on his ascent to the throne, be-
liev in g his position rather slippery, was obliged to come
to-Parliament to ask for aseverance of these estates from
the Crown lands. Henry V. followed the same course,
and added to the duchy the property of his mother, which
was considerable. Edward VI. sequestered the estates
and added them to the Crown. Henry VII. came to
Parliament and obtained permission again to sever those
estates from the Crown property. Indeed during almost
every reign those estates came under the consideration
of Parliament, and, singular enough, o.iver Cromwell
was the last who dealt with this property; for owing to
the death of Charles I. the revenue of the duchy became
national property. Oliver Cromwell again severed them,
and Charles 11. left the property as Cromwell bad left
it: He (fir. Wise) wished to know what had beets done
with this property. In 1750 a bill bad been introduced
by Lorl Cavendish, Mr. Burke, .and Mr. Fix, and he
(Mr. Wise) referred to it because be thought the feeling
of the house at that time might be a guide to the present
Parliament. The object of that bill was to.nnite to the
Crown the Duchy and County Palatine of Lancaster,
and to ascertain the rights of sale of all lands, tene-
ments, and hereditaments belonging thereto, for the
purpotte of applying the produce thereof to the
public service. That motion, it should be remembered,
was made in the reign of George 111 , and in an
unreformed Parliament. The next progress of the
property was that the House of Cimmons passed an
act •- requiring the accounts of the duchy to be laid
on the table of th ; house every year. That prayed
that the duchy was looked upon as public property.
With the knowledge which he had of the property, he
felt he should not be discharging his duty as a member
of the Legi,lature if he did not state the Lets he knew
to the house, and call upon the officers of the Duchy of
Lancaster to do their duty, not only to the State, but
also to the Sovereign whom they represented. His de-

e;ro was to get rid of a cumbrous Gothic establishment.
Trie revenues of the duchy scarcely more than belonged
to the royal-duchess who held them, because ihey were
all eaten up by expenditure. The buraen upon the
estate was a great as the benefit prom it. The revenues
were simply revenues on paper, and certainly never
entered into the privy purse. With reo.rcl to the re-
venues, and expenditure, mad receipts of the privy pure
deriow the present reian, he found the total receip s were
722,9601., and the privy purse had received out of that
rum 251,0001. ; so that the outgoings had been 471,9601.
In oth-r words, the average inc,rne was 38 0001., and
the privy purse received out of that 13,0001 a-year.
(11-ear, hear.) Tee accounts presented a more favourable
appearance itiq year, the revenues being 41,0481., and
the privy purse receiving 23,0001. With regard to the
establishment of the duchy, it was composed of 60 per-
sow, receiving an income ref 8,5271 There was a chan-
oellor, who received 2,0001. a year, and whose duties
were not very onerous or imp 'rtant ; a vice•chanceller,
with 6001 a-year, who, he believed, eicbar,.;.ed some
duties for the b, unfit of the Lancashire people, but he
thought it was very undesirable to keep np that small
jaristAietien then. Than came a receiver-gener,l, with
a salary of 8781 , but lie could have very little to do,
inasmuch as the rents wero paid into the bank of
Coutts and C. There was an auditor who Lad 2001
a-year, and a clerk, register, aed secretary with a salary
of 1,312/, and probably he was the proper person to per-
farm all the duties connected with the establishment.
There were fur clerks, a solicitor receiving 3001 a-year,
a surveyor with 5001 a-year, two attorney-generals, 15
receivers, and 23 stewards. The law exoensios alone dur.
ing the last 19 years were 20,870 It might ho raid
that the nature of the property required this vast
establishment. To some extent it might require it, be-
cause he mend the property was scattered through 20
c unties in England. With regard ter the revenues and
elaienditurF_,, of the forests, taking the average of the list
14 years of the forest of Needwood, he found the wood
sold for 11 893/., a d tee labour of cutting it down cost
St 050/. (Laughter.) In another forest, however, the
case was far wor.ie, for while the produce was 5,7741 ,
the expenses were 18,4251. Then there was a high dig-
nified and distinguished e fa.3ial called the axe bearer,
with 2001 a-year. The axe bearer was a noble peer—(a
laugh)—and it was notorious that Needwool was kept
up, not for the happiness and c unfcrt of its royal mis,
tress, but for the amusement and ploasuro of the neigh-
bouring gentry, who hunted there with the axe bearer
and his friends. There were a great number of charges
which ho thought were most unjustifiable reductions
from the privv purse. In the civil list her Majesty was
obliged to subscribe several hundreds, if not thousands,
a-year for what were called "Queen's Plates"--there
was a charge of 1051. for Lancaster races. The next
was a most absurd charge, being nothing less than 48/.
far the travelling expenses of the duchy seal. (Laugh-
ter ) He supposed the seal came up from Lancast r, and
avert to the Clarendon Hotel, and then returned back by
special train. (A laugh.) But there was a stid more
evraordinary charge of 4321. f.r seals. In every reign
a new set of seals were cut for the duchy court, and the
last set cost 4321. This was a system most unjust to the
Sovereign and injurious to the State, because if such
things were allowed the public property became ridicu-
lous. The whole of these revenues were eaten up by miss
management, and the salaries of officers who were of rio
advantage to the country. Hs saw no remedy for such
a state of things but to charge the revenues on the con•
solidated fowl and transfer to the hereditary revenues, so
that they might be collected as the other revenues now
were without this monstrous expense. He felt convinced
that if the copyholds on the manor were got rid of
very great benefit would follow, and lie believed if the
Chancellor of the Duchy were to make a notification
to that effect, in a very fees months 501 per annum
might be commuted into a capital sum of 30,0001. (Rear,
hear.) The first question he wished to put to the right
hon. gentleman (\lr. Baines) was, why was the income
of the duchy so stationary I Large sums bad been sold
out of the public stock, and a great number of improve-
ments had taken place, and yet there was no difference
wha ever between the years 1841 and 1856. He could
only say there might be ono explanation, namely, that a
great number of very bad bargains had been made in the
purchase and exchange of land. A recent purohase had
been made by which a property amounting to 11,3081 ,
had been added to the duchy. There was another point
to which he wished to call the attention of the house,
namely, the capital accounts, which were in such a con-
dition that the Chancellor of the Duchy himself, in 1854,
acknoalodged they were not calculated to convey full
and clear information to Parliament. He wished to
know what was made of the fines on renewals and sales.
From renewals the income was 26,731/., and on sales
60,3654. What was alone with that money! He declared
that his olject was that the duchy should produce as
much income as possible for her Majesty. Again, as to
the minerals, there a great increase of the produce from
that source. but there had been no statement respecting
it since 1837 and 1830 He did not understand the rea-
son of that omission. Since Parliament required the
proiuction of the accounts, there had been a statement
for two years, showing the number of tonserakiisuedd the'since
price paid, and the royalty, but nothing h
these appeared. He must now ask whetheroft. the Chan-
bad given their
cellor of the Duchy or other officers
ly the demand
at-
tention to a very serious question, n
for compensation for the destructiaonmeof property by
yholders in North
the Stafford colleri.
Staffordshire had purchased the surface from the
Crown, and the question was whether they were to have
a foundation I The lessees town
of the minerals had under-
' mined a district, and a containing 30,000 inhabi-
tante, and streets, houses, churches, and chapels had
been affected by the general ruin. It looked like nothing
so much as Herculaneum, except always the beauty of
the arts which decorated the ancient ruin. There were
roofless houses, cracked walls, a manufactory (costing
6,00010 totally destroyed, 30 houses shaken to the
foundation ; a rick disappeared, a pig-stye sunk under
ground, but the inhabitant, having been uneasy two or
three days before, escaped that night, and was found in
the neighbourhood next day. (A. laugh.) Families
were thrown out of occupation, some of them were
ruined, become bankrupt, and were in the workhouse.
The copyholders brought the question before the law
courts. The duchy spent 8,000/. in defending the
lessees. The judges, including Lord Chief Justice
Denman, decided iu favour of the copyholders, saying
their right to a foundation was inalienable. That was
a scandalous state of things, and it appeared all the
worse that the money of the duchy should be spent in
defending the lessees from the claim to compensation
made by the copyholders for the injuries done them.
He bagged the right hon. gentleman's attention to these
subjects with a view to the advantage of the country,
the benefit of her Majesty, and the character of the
Government themselves.
Alderman COPELAND seconded the motion. They

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<'-1;7:::1 ‘:''',Q.,..P d heard of Vie large some expe\ 4' Ifl'li • -.
duchy ; and the copybohlev, aware .1 fitl molly w h- •
!night be brought against them, darfd not encounter ••
law. He knew many instances of gross injugtice per.
petrated by the les,ees of the duchy in the destruction
of property. He hoped that some stop might be made
to this conduct. The copyholdtrs of Stafford-
shire dared not encounter the power of the
(I"chY• Even if they succeeded, they got no costs.
He called the serious attention of the Government to
tAs subject, and hoped the right hen. gentleman would
at some time or other grant the committee which wag
asked.

Mr. BATNES thanked the hon. member for Stafford
for giving him notice of his question, as the matter re.
(erred to occurred before be (Mr. Baines) entered office,
and he had been thus enabled to make inquiries. He
quite agreed with the hon. member for Stafford that it
was his duty to make the revenue of the duchy profitable
•to her Majesty, and which he intended to do. But all
improvement will be but gradual There were outside
leases and arrangements of rnaey kinds. When he bad
the opportunity of making better arrangements, he
should earne.tly avail himself of them. This was an
object he should keep always before him. His hon.
friend had not made the position of the duchy perfectly
clear. It originated in the time of Edward 111., and in
that time the revenue had been under a different guid-
ance and government from the other property of the
Crown. When at the accession of her present Majesty
the civil list was settled all the Croon revenues were
given up. except those of the duchies of Lancaster and
Cornwall, which remained under a separate guidance.
It was then provided by Aet of Parliament that the an.
nual accounts of the duchy should be made out in such a
say as the Treasury should decree, and presented to
Parliament. Since that time great improvements had
b3en introduced into the duchy. He would mention a
few of them. The hon. member for Stafford had alluded
to the old system of local receivers. At present only
one of those local receivers was left—there were collect-
ors, but no local receiver., and by that arrangement
these) was a saving of 1,2001. a-year on that head alone.
There was another point. The hon. member had ad-
verted to the salaries which were paid, hut since the
passing of the act an important alteration had taken
place, whereby the officers were paid part in salaries and
part in fees. The salaries were now fixed, and an im-
pmtent saving had been made in consequence. A very
great improvement had been introduced into the
management of the duchy Firma the year 1847. The
commissioners then appointed rescinded the abolition of
the system of fines on renewals of leases, and this sug-
gestion had been kept steadily in view by those charged
with the control of the property. About two years since
an act was passed, empowering the Chancellor of the
Duchy to sell outlying properties, and purchase others
with the proceed., for the purpose of consolidating the
property, and this would tend greatly to reduce the ex-
pense of management. It was said by the hon. member
that her Maj 'sty derived very little revenue from the
duchy. This, however, was not the case. The average
return paid clear into the privy purse of her Majesty
during the last nineteen years was 13,0001. a year ; but
the amount during the last year was 20,0001., and there
was every probability that it would go on progressively
increasing, as the incumbrances, burdens, and patent
offices were removed. The honourable and learned
memher,said that with respect to the injury alleged
to I,,ve been sustained by some copyholders in
Derbyshire by carrying on mining operations, that
ha l been a subject in dispute in various law
courts for several years. He trusted that the house
would agree with him in the opinion that several im-
provements had been effected in the management of the
property of the duchy. He had no opposition to offer
to the motion of the hon. member. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICARDO complained of the very unsatisfactory
estanetion made by the right hon. member, and he
thought that the house was much indebted to the hon.
member for Safford for bringing the sudj,.ct under the
notice of the house. The cave of the people of Hanley
and Skeddington, and the inhabitants of the Potteries,
was one of great hardship ; their lives and property
were placed in great jeopardy by the conduct of the
Crown iu permitting mining operations to be carried ono
which were attended with so much danger to the public,
for the paltry rent of about 2,0001. He had for the last
seventeen years been in communication with the Duchy
of Lancaster on the subjec,, but bad never been able to
obtain any satisfactory result. .

Mr. BiSS said that there could be no doubt that the
poverty of the Duchy of Lancaster was in a most dis-
creditable state, and called for great improvements in the
management. Among other conditions upon which he
held sirens property under the Crown, was one that he
should supp'y for her Maje-ty's private table, four
pheasants, 80 partridges, and 18 hares. (A laugh.)
0 eir,ng, however, to the extent to which poaching was
carried on, he was perfectly unat,le to supply the de-
mand. After some refutation aid much squabbling on
the subjec,„ a purveyor was appointed, and the requisite
g me eas supplied ; and each year be (Mr. Bass) was
furnished with the list of the amount of game supplied,
which he paid he could hardly say with how much satis-
faction. (A. laugh.) Tiiis was a matter which well de-
served the attention of the able admini4trators of the
duchy, as illustrating a system more suitable to the
the times of the henries than the reign of her Majesty.
The motion was then aereed too.
GOVERNMENT OF BENGAL.
Slr E. PERRY presented a petition from Calcutta,
praying f ,r the amal4arnation of the Queen's and the
Company's courte of law.
Mr. KINNe IRD rose to move resolutions stating
that from representations made to the house there was
reason to beiieve that the present administration of the
lower provinces of Bee gd did not secure to the inhabit-
ants good government, but that the mass of the people
suffered grievieus oppression from the police, and that
in the opinion of the house the Government were bound
to ascertain the truth of these statements, and if they
were true to redress the same. The representations he
said were contained in the petition of the missionaries in
the district, who stated what they had themselves wit-
nessed. They had memorialised the Lieutenant-Governor
of Bengal on the subject, but being refuted redress there
they now appealed to Parliament. It might be said these
missionaries ought to have confined themselves to preach-
ing the gospel, but he would remind the house that
though they were missionaries, they did not cease to be
English gen.lemen ; and it was not to be expected that
they could witness oppression, cruelty, and wrong, and
yet remain silent. Ile then proceeded to state, from the
petitions of the missionaries, fortified as it was by the
adirii,isions of Mr. Halliday, the Lieutenant-Governor,
and other officials, of the cruelty with which the ryot, or
native culivator of the soil, was treated by the zernin-
dar, or great landowner, of the tortures which these
zemindars practised, and in which they were abetted by
the native police, who were themselves notorious for
murder, robbery, and theft, and were practically without
any superintendence, for theEcglish collectors lived from
40 to GO miles away, in a country without roads, and
where the magistrates were perpetually changing. He
therefore prayed for an inquiry, which would at least
clear up the mystery banging over these charges, and if
they were true, would at least pave the way to a remedy.
An HoN. MEMBER here moved that the house be
counted, but by dint of whipping up a few members, a
house way made.

Mr. DUNLOP, in seconding the motion, expressed
his indignation at the inditlerence with which the house
treated this que,tion, so intimately affecting the happi•
nose of India.

r.V.S MITI' complained of the vague nature of Mr.
Kinnaird's motion. The evils complained of were well
known, and he objected to the motion because it would
discover nothing that was not already known. This
was. not a motion for a commission to inquire into spe-
mho abuses, it was a commission to inquire into the
whole framework and administration of the Government,
superseding the functions of the governor himself.
Many of them were in the course of remedy. For in.
stance, Mr. Kinnaird complained of the conduct of the
police in India. Well, that was admitted by a despatch
from the Court of Directors, lamenting the evil, and
dii ecting a re-organisation of the whole system of police.
What could his hen. friend have more than that /
Mr. KINNAIRD—There is nothing done.
Mr. SMlTH—Nothing done I Why the despatch was
only issued in September last—and did he expect that
the whole system could be re-organised in three months!
If his hon. friend fancied that reforms proceeded with
more rapidity in India than in England he was much
mistaken. There was also a bill now before the Legis-
lative Council in India to regulate the relations between
the zemindar and the ryor. Could a commission do
more I And where could the commissioners be found 'I
It must be remembered that while the missionaries com-
plained of the Government, the indigo. planters corn-
lained of the (conduct of the missionaries, and wanted a
commission against them. He was determined to refuse
both. The Government were making inquiries for
themselves, and were acting upon the information they
had received. With regard to the administration of
justice the Legislative Council of India were at this
moment discussing bills to carry into effect certain im-
portant law reforms, and among others the celebrated
penal code of Mr. Macaulay. Having shewn them that
the Government were not inattentive to these reforms
he must oppose this motion, because he did not wish
to spread abroad the delusion that the Government
were about to revolutionise the
Innddiiaa.tbaNtocrhwriostuiladn hevi t present
missionarieso werea vet
it
ointerferesystem in
go fo ritnh
theto
affairs of Government. The house had already heard of
the mutinous disposition manifested in some native re-
giments, which took its rist in the notion that we were
about to adopt a compulsory system of conversion. Be-
sides all this, he felt, in the words of Mr. Halliday, that
the time for inquiry was past ; the time for action had
come. A commission would delay and obstruct rather
than promote reform. He trusted Mr. Kinnaird would
see the reasonableness of this, and would, therefore,
withdraw his motion.
Sir E. PERRY was also opposed to a commission
which he thought would do more harm than good. Bat
he reminded the house that the social evils complained
of in the resolution were all admitted and proved by
overwhelming evidence from the most opposite quarters.
He contended, in accordance with A notice he had on
the paper, that the remedy for these evils. would be
found in the appointment of fit and legally•tramed judges.
This he contended was not done at present, and he quo-
ted,,ppointed to administer justice, and one
to the house instances of mere boys, fresh from Hai-
case where a gentleman being found disqualified for
leybury, being
every other situation, was at last made a circuit judge.
Lord J. RUSSELL was glad that this discussion bad
counting out the house. It would,
been s
havetopbpeeedby n a
great misfortune if Mr. Kinnaird's
able statepient had gone forth to the country, with this
not
indeed,
addition, that the house was so indifferent to the wrongs
of India, that 40 members could not be persuaded to dis-
cuss the question. On the main question he agreed with
Mr. V. Smith that an inquiry was not the proper re-
reedy now—that it was time for action. 1,1? r could he
agree with Mr. Kinnaird's resolution,.wkieh implied
that we did not furnish India with good government, Btu