The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-21 00:00:00

rHE SUN, LONDON, I'LTESDAY EVENING, JULY 21, 1857

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDA.Y.)
MERSEY CONSERVANCY BILL.
Tne Earl of DERBY presented a petition signed by
13,000 persons in Liverpool, against the Mersey Conser-
vancy Bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented petitions in
favour of the bill.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE moved the second read-
ing of this bill. It was not arbitrary, nor was it a viola-
tion of the rights of property. It was simply to form a
new trust for the toll+ and the docks.
Lord RAVENSWORTH opposed the billas a violent
and arbitrary measure.
Lord WENSLEYDALE said the bill ought to be
thrown out. It ignored compensation.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE supported the bill.
The Earl of DERBY strongly blamed the conduct of
her Majesty's Government on this occasion.
The house divided-
- For the second reading
• Against it l5-8
The bill was then real a second time.
ATLANTIC TELEGRAPH COMPANY BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this bill.
Lord REDESDALE drew attention to the fact that
it dici not contain the usual provision enabling the G. -
vernment to take possession of the line of telegraph.
This could not be done, because the United States jibed
in the guarantee to the company ; but he thought it
would have been better if this Government had under-
taken the whole guarantee.
Earl GRANVILLE gave some explanations, and the
bill was read a third time and passed.
BANKRUPTCY LAWS.

Lord BROUGHAM postponed his notice on this sub-
ject until Thursday, when he said he should propound
to the house such alterations as he deemed requisite in
our commercial law.
INCLOSURE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
LARCENY, &c., BILL.

This bill, and seven others founded on the recommen-
dations of the Statute Law Commission, were severally
read a third time and passed.
The Crowded Dwellings Prevention Bill and the
Turnpike Trusts Abolition (Ireland) Bill were read a
third time and passed.
The Constabulary Force (Ireland) Bill passed through
committee.
Their lordships adjourned at half-past 9 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.)
INDIA.

Mr. ROEBUCK !asked the Vice-President of the
Board of Control whether the Government or the East
India directors had received a telegraphic communica-
tion from India, 'stating that the Bombay Army bad
mutinied? He was induced to put the question from
the statement he bad seen in one of the daily papers.
Mr. V. SMITH said that neither the Government
nor the East India Company bad received any such com-
munication. In consequence of the great excitement
that naturally prevailed in reference to Ind,an affairs, he
begged to state the present means of communication be-
tween the two countries. There were two mail 4 a
month, and as soon as they arrived at Suez, a short
account of the contents of the mils were telegraphed to
Trieste, and from thence to this country, in anticipation
of their delivery. 'He was at a loss to conceive how it
was the rumour referred to had originated. (Hear.
bear.) He had no wish to interfere with the
manner in which the respectable editors
of the press in this country conducted their business, but
he hoped after what be bad said relative to the means of
communication between the two countries, that they
would be cautious bow they received rumours of this
kind, which necessarily caused much uneasiness to the
putlic. (Hear, hear.) He did not place the least rill
ance in the rumour lauded to, and his impression was
—from the last account—that there was no disaffection
in the Bombay and Madras armies. (Hear, hear.)
THE RUSSIAN TARIFF.
In answer to a question from Mr. NEWDEGA.TE,
Lord PA.LNIERSTON said that be had received a
communication from Lord Wodehouse, stating that the
revised Russian tariff was published in the Russian
language. It was the intention of the
Russian Government to publish a translation of it in
the French language; and as soon as it was issued he
(Ix rd Wodehouse) would transmit a copy of it to this
country.
THE DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY.

• On the report of the Committee of Supply being
brought up,
Mr. BENTINCK rose, in pursuance of notice, to call
the attention of the house to the state of the naval and
military defences of the country. Referring to the dis-
cussion upon the subject on Friday last, the hon. gen-
tleman said the answer of the noble lord at the head of
the Government was unsatisfactory, and he wished to
elicit a clearer statement. He understood the right hon.
baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty to have said
on a previous occasion that we had not a steam lire-of-
battle ship fit to carry troops to the East. He inferred
that the ships were not in a sufficiently advanced state
to be employed at a few days' notice in the conveyance
of troops, and therefore that the ships could Rot be imme
diately drawn out for the purpose of national defence. The
noble lord at the head of the Government told the house
that he saw nothing in the present state of affairs
to necessitate. or justify the calling out of the militia
this year, but he did -not tell the house what course
would be adopted to make good the deficiency of troops
which most be created by the necessity of sending a
large number to India. The noble lord, with his usual
frankness, said he saw no probability of any outbreak in
Europe. No man was more qualified to give an opinion
on such a point, but the noble lord was not omniscient
nor omnipotent. It was impossible that he or any one
could say what might cccur in the next four weeks.
No opinion on the probability or improbability of an
outbreak in Europe was worth anything, because it
could be only a speculation, upon which they would not
be justified in acting. Within a few weeks we might
be engaged in hostilities with one or two of the most
powerful States in Europe, and there ought to be means
at our command to insure the safety of the country in
the event of the occurrence of such a contingency.
(Hear, hear) The noble lord seemed to hold doctrines
more becoming the Peace-at-any-price party. He said
that " We most cut our coat according to our cloth."
The SPEAKER felt obliged to remind the hon.
member that these constant references to past debates
were contrary to Parliamentary usage. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK would not presume to argue with
the right hon. gentleman who presided, but be sub-
mitted that, as be felt it his duty to call attention to the
opinions expressed by the noble lord upon an imports, t
subject, if he were not allowed to advert to those opi-
nions there would he a complete end to all freedom of
debate. He understood the noble lord on a former oc-
casion to say-that the expenditure of the country shoe' I
be regulated by its income. That was a dangerous doc-
trine to be laid down by the Prime Minister. It was
calculated to raise strong doubts as to whether the noble
lord had taken proper means for maintaining our de-
fences by sea and land. He trusted that the important
subject which he had ventured to introduce to their no-
tice would, be taken up by gentlemen of more ability and
influence than himself, and that at length an ex le-
nation would be elicited from the Government as to
the measures they proposed to adopt for preserving the
efficiency of our naval and military defences.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST said that in deference to the
feelings di the house the other evening he did not persist
in his motion for poetp 'fling the vote for an increase of
seamen in our navy. He submitted, however, that in
the present- critical condition of India, and with hostile
ties going on in Chiete, the noble lord at the head of the
Government ought to have made a statement to the
house with respect tq the exigencies of the country, and
explained, how he proposed to meet them. In lieu ot that
—when, on Friday evening, the vote for 2,000 additional
seamen was handed to the chairman in Committee of
Supply, not a single remark was made by the First Lerd
of the Admiralty cr any other member of the Govern-
ment, and had he not ventured himself to address a few
observations to the hotiser the. vote would have been
agreed to in solemn silence, We could not disguise from
ourselves the fact -that a large military force wool]
be required to suppress the revolt in India, and
therefore it was somewhat extraordinary that the only
vote which the Government had proposed for an increase
of our armaments was one for an addition of 2,000 sea-
men to the navy. It had been stated by the public jour-
nels—not by any member of the Government—teat
25,000 soldiers were about to proceed to India. He
wished to know what measures the Goverment intended
to take In order to replace that large force. Nothing
could be more dangerous than to denude this country of
the whole of its military defences, and yet, while the-Go-
vernment bad Maintained a studious silence on the sub-
jest of any increase to our regular army, the Prime Mi-
nister • had" positively declared that, in his opinion, the
culling out of the militia was unnecessary. If the noble
lore supeeteed that recruits oonld be obtained with little
difficulty be was very much mistaken. (Hear.) The
people ttad not forgotten the excessive favour shown to
the soldiers of the Foreign Legion, and the rewards be-
stowed upon the members of the various civil corps,
and they woole• not be found so ready to enlist into
the artnyeas suns e persons seemed to expect. Moreover,
it ought to be'remembered that at the close of the last
war our army was 50,000 men under the estimates voted
by Parliament— a fact which showed how nectehsesairy .it
was to take•intraediate measures for replacing
force about ,to be sent to India. With respectto the acor'ne-
veyance of troops, he might state that a portion of cur
Crimean army was brought home in her Majesty s screw
line-of-battle ehipe, although the First Lord of the Adree.
rally bad previou-ly declared that no vessels belonging to
the navy would be used for that purpose, and he was
convieced the employment of screw steamers in convey.
jog troops to India cr China at the present time would
be productive of both efficiency and economy. The noble
lord cc•ne,Juded by asking what was the total nnrnbtr of
troops. intended to be sent to India—how they were to
be eonveyed—whether the Government had considered
the expediency of increasing the regular army, and if es,
to what extent—and whether the Government had Coll.
eideredfthe.propriety of calling out some of the militia
reginients 2

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was evidently a strong
desire on the p rt of certain classes to increase the army.
For many years the standing army of the country f r
howl and cidonial duty amounted to 81,000. It was no w
126,000,,and be hoped the Government, which knew the
wantd.of the country much better than individual mem-
bers, would not be induced ty any reworks from m,m-
berp in that house to make an increase which they them
bpiveB felt to. he unnecessary.
Col.
xSox reminded the hon. member for Lambeal
that OP„00Q 4WD bad been abAracted from the army at
home tor service in India and China. The bon. member,
however, had a hobby, which was to endeavour by every
wane in his power to reduce the army to a conditiz,n in
which it would be insufficient for the wants of the coun-
try, He (Col. Knox) hoped the noble lord would preeit

by the experience gained in the last war, when, having
allowed our army to be too much reduced, we were driven
to great straits to procure the men who were absolutely
necessary for us.

Lord PALMERSTON—It is, I think, not usual for
men who have at any time been anxious for the attain-
ment of a certain object to become less eager for it when
they are placed in a position which makes them per-
sonally responsible for its attainment. Now, at a mo-
ment when the question of adequate national defences
was not quite so popular as it is now, I was one of those
Who out of office, as before that time when I was in
office, urged upon Parliament the necessity of making
more ample provision for the defences of the country.
(Hear.) I retain that opinion now, and, being a mem-
berof the Government and more responsible for providing
adequate defences, I hope hon. gentlemen will give us
credit for not being neglectful in accomplishing an object
which all must admit to be of paramount importance.
Now, the hon. gentleman who spoke last seemed dis-
posed to taunt us with evincing an inclination to too
much economy in onr arrangements. I have always telt
and urged that Parliament ought to provide ample funds
r whatever may be necessary in the way of military or
naval defences. (Hear.) I can only say that the expe-
rience of the past leads me confidently to rely upon the
fact that Parliament never will be backward in answer-
ing the calls of the Government, whatever that Govern.
ment may be, woenever it is felt that increased exertions
are necessary to enable the Government to provide
adequate means for the national defences. But it is one
thing to call on Parliament in a great emergency to in-
crease the burdens of tbe country, with a view to pro-
tect the country from danger ; it is another thing, in or-
dinary times, to call on Parliament to go beyond that
amount which the Government, acting upon its own re-
sponsibility, has deemed to be sufficient for defence,
although perhaps they might have an opinion that the
amount was not quite so large as they would have
desired had there been more ample means at their
disposal. At the beginning of this year there was
laid before Parliament a statement of the amount
of military and naval force which we, who are re-
sponsible, considered at the time would be likely to
be required. Therefore, as far as the defences of
the country, are concerned, looking at the state of Europe
I see no reason why we should call upon Parliament to
give us a greater number of men than we asked for ori-
ginally. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman who commenced
this discussion thinks we do not look with sufficient f re-
sight to events which might happen to disturb the tran-
quillity of Europe and might involve this country in the
necessity of making greater exertions. I can only say I
see no prospect at present, no question impeiding which
is likely to involve us in any struggle in Europe. I trust
the hand of Providecce will protect us from any of those
events which may unexpectedly produce a state of con-
vulsion. But if such an emergency should arise, Parlia-
ment is sitting, to whom we could at once apply, and if
Parliament were not sitting we have the power of calling
it together and asking its advice and assistance. Upon
these grounds I feel there is no immediate cause for us to
apply to Parliament for a greater amount of force for the
service of the United Kingdom than that which we asked
for at the beginning of this year. But it is quite true
that events unexpectedly arising in India have compelled
us to send from this country a portion of that force which
had been intended to remain here for the purposes of
national defence or for furnishing reliefs upon those eta-
tions where they might be needed. We, however, took
steps to fill up the gap that would be created. We at
once ordered the most active recruiting to take place.
The only immediate way in which a drain of this kind
can be met is by enlisting fresh recruits to augment the
eatablishmentnf regiments remaining at home and in
other places, or for the purpose, if it becomes necessary,
of raising second battalions with a view of increasing the
number of corps for relief abroad ; but that operation
will go on without any assistance from Parliament up to
the amount which Parliament has already sanctioned for
the military establishment of the country. Parliament
has voted a certain number of men, and a portion of
that number being sent out to India, we are able
to fill up by recruitments the gap thus created, and
to restore the establishment to the same amount at
which it stood before these events occurred. I hope that
at an early period that gap will be filled up by the ordi-
nary process of recruiting. If not, it will become the duty
of the Government to see what other steps may be re-
quired. One of the methods which has been suggested,
and which has been much pressed upon us by hon. mem-
bers on the other side of the house, is that we should
have recourse to the militia. I think hon. gentlemen do
not accurately picture to themselves a distinct idea of
what it is they recommend. If they recommended that
the militia should be called out for training and exercise
for the limited period of 28 or 56 days, to which in time
of peace they are confined, is that intended as a means
of inducing the men of those regiments to volunteer for
the line ? I dare say, if we were to call out a large body
of the militia for training and exercise, many of them
would volunteerinto the line, but it would be a most exoen•
sive mode of raising men, because in order to recruit 100 or
200 men, you would have to pay the full establishment of
the militia regiment for 28 or 66 days. Thus, the two-
thirds or three-fourths of the regiment who would not
volunteer must be paid in order to induse the remaining
oue-fourth or one-third to join the line. Other gentlemen
say we ought to emeedy the militia as a permanent part
of the home garrison ; bn if they looked at the Act of
Parliament ttiey would see that we bays no power to do
so. The law gives the Crown the power of embodying
the militia in case of war with some foreign Power, or
in case of insurrection or danger at home. We are not
at war. I see no likelihood of our being engaged in a
European war, and certainly there never was a moment
when the country was less likely to see an insurrection
at home. It is possible, no doubt, that events may
have happened in India, of which we may receive
information before Parliament rises, which will mess-
sitato so large a detachment of forces from this coon-
try that the ordinary process of recruiting will not be
likely to fill up the gap ; and I admit that, without
any apprehension of particular danger at home, tr
anticipating any unfavourable change of political cir-
cumstances in Europe, it would not be right and fit-
ting to leave this country, I will not say entirely
destitute, but with any diminntion for any length of
time of the force that is necessary for its home defence.
(Hear, hear.) It might, therefore, in such a case be
proper to ask Parliament to give the Crown for a limited
period powers to embody a portion of the militia,
though not in a state of war. I merely mention that as
one of the possible events that might make a recourse to
Parliament necessary, though I hope no such necessity
wilt arise. T. e noble lord opposite has asked me to tell
hint tbe number of troops going to India—a question
which I beg to say I have already answered. The force
sent out, or being sent out, is, in round numbers,
20,000, consisting partly of recruits for the European
corps in the service of the Company, partly of infantry
of the line, partly of cavalry, and also of artillery. There
are about 1,000 artillery, c insisting of six companies of
foot and 2 troops of horse artillery ; there are 3 regi-
ments of cavalry going, and the rest will be infantry of
the line. We have sent out what we think to be suffi-
cient, judging from the last communications we had from
India, and the amount of force sent rather exceeds
that which the Governor-General in his last communica-
tion thought it was essential he should have. If, unfor-
tunately, further accounts should necessitate our send-
ing larger reinforcements, we shall then consider %hat
steps we ought to take, and whether it may not be neces-
sary to have recourse to Parliament for further powers. '
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY thought the real question was
whether the readiest and quickest mode of sending
troops to India had been adopted by the Government.
He thought it was impossible to send troops in line-ef-
battle ships at anything like the cost of merchant ships
as the former could not, like the latter, lessen the charge
by back cargoes. The question, in his opinion, lay be-
tween sailing and steam-ships. He found from a return
he held in his hand that the average pa-maze of 22 sailing
ships from this country to Calcutta was 1321 days, and
that screw steamers had performed the same passage
in 94 days, lees stoppages of ten days being
a gain of 38 days in favour of the screw steamers.
But, throwing aside stoppages, there would be a saving
of 45 days by sending troops to India in screw steamers.
This, he thought, was a matter of grave consideration at
the present moment. The passage homeward from India
showed neatly the same results, and the returns he had
went to prove that in tie passage out and home by
screw steamers there would be a saving of about one-
third in point of time.

Sir C. NAPIER considered it impossible to send the
troops to India by line-of-battle snips, as they could not
be fitted out in Iles than three munths from the day the
ord r was given. Great difficulty, too, would be foucd in
raising men, and he therefore thought the Admiralty
were right in going into the market to hire vessels. He
did not care what the cost was, but be thought the Go-
vernment ought to send out screw sh jr, and, in order to
isave their coals, they Ilion' f take care to have them
towed out to catch the trade winds. With respect to the
defences of the country, he had almays been of opinion,
and be believed that the Government themselves were of
the same opinion if they would only speak but, that this
country ought never to be lsft without a Channel squad-
ron for an emergen.y. It was no use for the Government
of England to rely upon sailing ships when other nations
had steam, and. instead of paying off our steam vessels,
he contended that we should have paid off our sailii.g
vessels, and have maintained our screw ships. Our sta-
tion idockehips, as they were called, were not blockehips
in reality, but were only bad steamers which were of no
u-e whatever. Instead of such inefficient craft, ;se ought
have first-rate screw ships at every outpost, and as the
Coastguard were now a well.organised corps, they would
have been competent to man the ships if the ships only
had been ready for their reception. He trusted the Govern.
ment would recall from the outposts those bad and useless
vessels, and thatthty would substitute for them the best
steamers at their disposal. It wasknown that ships in corn-
mOssion with their full crews aboard did not wear out so
fast as ships that were laid up in ordinary; nevertheless
it had been the custom of this country to have the best
ships laid in ordinary, while the worst ships were iu
Governmente'n rnn
iii)n.l
thne conclusion
absolute
nheeeeastiatiyn pressedef
embarking up o n
theth e
troops for India in screw ships.
Lord C. HAXILTON, before agreeing to the recep-
tion of the report up :n Supply, wished to ask this pla-n
and practical question—ethat was the advantage gained
to this country by the expenditure of the roerreywhich
they were now asked to.sanction ? 500,001, was not the
whole vote which they would be called upon to provide
—it was only an instalment of a larger sum which al-
ready amounted to 930,0001, ; and, as it was one of the
most important duties of the House of Commons to see
teat the public funds were not wasted, he could not con-
sch ntiously consent to this vote until he had heard some
explanation with respect to the value received for the
outlay. He was not going to discuss the policy of the.
Persian war ; but be wished to know what was the diffe-
rence between the terms tweed to at Paris, and those
which were offered, and were within our grasp at C.mstat.

tinople. As far as he understood the papers which had
been submitted, be gathered that the terms which we
bad accepted at Paris were not nearly so advatitageons
as those which had been offered at Constantinople. At
Constantinople we demanded c impensatien for certain
inhabitants at Herat, and we peremptorily demanded
the dismissal of the Prime Minister. Both these points
were conceded at Constantinople, but they were not in•
sisted upon at Paris ; while by the 12th article of the
Paris treaty England gave up a right which at Constan-
tinople she was not asked to concede. That being so he
asked how the house could be justified in ea • 'oiling
the expenditure of this 500,000/. The only plea on
which it could be justified was that Ferukh Khan, the
Persian ambassador at Constantinople, bad not full
powers. In the event of such a statement being put for-
ward however, be begged to remind the house that Lord
Stratford de Reda*. writing to Lord Clarendon on t' e
2d Jan. said that- Wei e hie Exi °tient, accept the
whole of our terms he would engage unit upon those
being immediately complied with no further demands
should be made." Thus showing that, in the opinion of
Lord Stratford, Ferukh Khan possessed full powers.
Moreover, he (Lord C. Hamilton) found that on three
separate occasions Ferukh Kban himself stated that be
was armed with full power. This was a commercial
country, and he begged to repeat in plain terms the ques-
tion which lie already asked—what had this country
gained by the expenditure which Parliament was now
called upon to sat ction ?
Sir C. WOOD thought that it would be very inexpe-
dient at the present moment to resuscitate the debate
upon the Persian war. However, the question which tl'e
noble lord had asked would be easily answered. What
we had gained by the war was the exaction of a promise
from Persia that she would perform the solemn engage-
ment which she bad broken—not again to occupy
Herat, an engagement the performance of which all
persons who were acquainted with the interests of
India considered to be indispensable for the safety
of our empire in the East. Quitting that subject,
then, and referring to the questions which had been
raised with respect to the transport of the troops to India
and the defences of the country, he must say that be ad-
hered to the opinion which he had before expressed, that
it was undesirable to employ Queen's ships in conveying
troops, but that it was far better to employ transports
for that purpose and Queen's ships in providing naval
assistance in the war. The hon. gentleman who last
spoke adverted again to the question of seeding troops
.13 sailing or steam ships. The average time taken in the
passage to Calcutta by the fastest sailing ships, starting
at this period of the year, was from 90 to 100 days.
Now, he had the times occupied by auxiliary screws
in that passage. They were bound by contract to
perform that passage in 74 days ; but the first per-
formed it in 107 days ; the second, the Tynemouth,
in 121 ; the third, the Robert Lowe, in 100 days ; and
the fourth in 90 days. He had stated the other night
that some clipper ships had been taken up for the
conveyance of troops, and the owners were willing to
be bound to pay heavy penalties if they did not beat
the screw ships starting a'.; the same time. There-
fore the certain advantage of employing screw ships was
not so great as had been represented. He must remind
the house, too, of the exceeding difficulty of finding coal
for so large a number of vessels. The Government had
stores at the Cape, but they had been largely drawn on
by the steam vessels proceeding to China. Large addi-
tional stores had been sent out ; but, taking into consi-
deration the two circumstances, that starting at this
time sailing vessels were as quick as steam vessels, and
that there was a possibility of the supply of coal falling
short, he thought the East India Company had done well
in determining in reference to expedition to send a por-
tion of the troops in sailing vessels. With respect to the
question of defence, it was quite true that be admitted
the other night that there were not at present in com-
mission sufficient line-of-battle ships fit to carry troops
to India, but he did not therefore admit that there were
not sufficient in commission for the defence of the
coast. He agreed with the honourable member for
Tynemouth that it was not likely the people of this
country would awaken some morning and find their coun-
try invaded. War did not break out in that way, at d
if the country was always to be prepared to meet the
utmost amount of force that might be brought against
it, where would be the possibility of attaining—what
it was the aspiration of the country to accomplish—a
peace establishment and peace estimates! (Hear,
hear.) It was perfectly impossible and absurd to suppose
that in the midst of profound peace the country should
be as ready to meet an attack as it would be in a time
of war. In estimating the amount of preparation
necessary to be made the probable danger must be taken
into account. A man might be knocked down in the
streets of London, but every person would not on that
account walk the streets with a revolver in his pocket.
What were the circumstances et the country at the pre-
sent moment ! It bad lately emerged from a great
continental war, and he had a suspicion that the great
Powers were unwilling to involve themselves in
war again. There was as litt'e danger of
war between this country and any European Power
as there had been at any time during the last
forty years, yet the country was in a far
better state of preparation than at any period during the
last 40 years. Though there were not sufficient ships in
commission fit to carry troops to India, still there were
a considerable number of the finest screw ships in a state
of forwardnes., with a view to being commissioned if
needed ; there were Bailing ships in different ports, and
there were, moreover, in commission, eight steam line-of-
battle ships called block ships, which the country never
had before at any time. These last might not be fit to
cruise in the Atlantic, but they were powerful for home
, defence. The hon. and gallant admiral said that vessels
kept better in commission than in ordinary. That was
an entire mistake. When he was Secretary to the Ad-
ralty in 1836 it was thought necessary to increase the
number of vessels in commission. There were then a
number of vessels called "advanced ships," being ves-
sels in some state of preparation, and on examination it
was found that the tanks of the ships bad gone to decay
and that the rigging was rotten. The Government then,
instead of having to commence with empty vessels and
getting for them whatever was necessary, bad first of all
to get the decayed things out and then start de nolo.
Those ships were in some degree filled up, and decay
was the consequence, for it was the free circulation of
the air that preserved the ships. Therfore, if the Go-
vernment kept the ships in the way proposed by the
hon. and gallant admiral they would only be wasting
away the ships, which would not be found in time of
war so serviceable as they would under the system now
pursued. Of course, if war threatened it would be the
duty of the Government to bring the ships into a more
forward state ; and, as a few weeks were sure to elapse
between a quarrel and hostilities, there would be ample
time to prepare them. With respect to men, let the num-
ber now maintained be compared with the number during
any period of the last 40 years. At one time in that period
when there was the greatest apprehension of interruption
of peace, the number of seamen and marines voted was
43,000 ; the number this year voted wee, together
with the addition recently proposed, 50,000, being
7.000 more than were voted at a time when for the
last 40 years the aperehei sion of war was the greatest.
He thought neither the house nor the Government
could be reproached with having neglected to provide
ample means for the defence of the country. He had no
doubt the house would authorise any expenditure
which might be requisite in order to place the natioral
defences in a state of efficiency, but he thought her
Majesty's Government would not be justified in calling
upon the country to make sacrifice which were not abso-
lutely necessary, inasmuch as such preparations had
been made as would be sufficient to meet any emergency.
He had not yet adverted to the naval reserve which had
been recently established—the coastguard and coast
volunteers. The first of these forces had been organised
by the present Government The establishment of coast
volunteers had been proposed by the right hon. member
for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), but during the war the sug-
ge-tion had not been carried out, He.(Sir C. Wood) was
happy to say the enrolment of those forces had been
successful beyond his warmest expectations. He had
asked for 8,000 men for the coastguard, of whom
5,700 were seamen, and 2,300 civilians, who would, he
hoped, be gradually replaced by seamen. He found from
a return he had received to-day that the whole 8,000
men had been raised with the exception of seven. (Hear. )
He had asked the house to vote as many men as he ;
thought he could obtain in the course of tne year, but
men bad come in much more rapidly than had been ex-
pected, and three months after the vote bad been sane.
tinned there was only a deficiency of seven men out of
8,000. (Hear.) During the war some 2,000 men, not in
all cases the most efficient, bad been draughted from the
Coast-guard into the Baltic fleet, and they had formed a
solid and steady nucleus for the crews of the different
ships. At this moment, howe'.er, if it were necessary,
be could put on board ship 5,000 picked seamen, many
of them wearing medals, clasps, and the legion of honour,
most of which distinctions had been gained during the
late war. With regard to the Naval Coast Volunteers,
it had not been found possible in several districts to call
out that force ; but up to this time more than 1,200 men
had been called out and trained, and he was sure the
house would be happy to bear that the greatest readi-
ness had been evinced to enter that branch of the public
service. They had in that force a body of men who
would be prepared upon any emergency to defend the
shores of this country. If the crews of the block ships
were transferred to sea-going ships the coast volunteers
would be available for manning the block ships, and he
ventured to say that so far as coast defences were con-
cerned the country had never at any former period been
so well prepared as it was at present. (Hear.) He was
glad the hon. member for Norfolk had brought this sub
jest under the notice of the house, and had afforded him
(Sir C. Wood) the opportunity of making a statement
which be thought could not fail to be satisfactory to the
hou-e and to the country. He hoped that when next
year he proposed an addition to the number of the Coast-
guard and of the coast volunteers he should receive the
support of the house in strengthening a reserve force,
which was as cheap and efficient as any to which they
could bare recourse.

Admiral DUNCOMBE believed that the ships to be
engaged in conveying troops to India would be taken up
by the Ea,t India Company and examired by Admiralty
inaptcters, and he wished to impress upon the Govern-
ment the importance of employing none] but first-class
ships in this service. He had before him abet of the ships
already taken up, and he found among them the Robert
Lowe, of only 100 horse-power, another ship of only 150
horse-power, and sailing-ships of 600 or 700 tons. He did
not think the efficiency of the troops would be promoted
by embarking them in ships of such a description.
Admiral WALCOTT said, the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty had stated that sailing ships were best ads?ted
for the conveyance of troops from England to Calcutta,
but, as three weeks must elapse before many of -those
ships could be despatched, it was scarcely likely they
would arrive at Point de Galle before the monsoon

in, and if they did not do so it would take them three
weeks at least to beat up to their destination, while by
steamers the distance could be accomplished in a week
or ten days. It was of the first importance that the
strength and discipline of the troops should not be im-
paired when they arrive at tbeir destination, and he
thought on that ground the advantages of steam vessels
could not be overrated. Certainly, sailing ships of 600
or 700 tons were not calculated for the conveyance of
troops to India. lie bad sailed to India at different
periods of the year, and had been for three weeks in a
dead calm ; but a ship which could employ steam power
for 100 m lee might get into a wind which would enable
her to proceed rapidly upon her voyage. The right hon.
baronet had stated that the voyage to India could be
made by sailing ships in 101 days. The quickest pas-
sage he (Admiral Walcott) had ever heard of was made
by the Medusa frigate. which took out the Governor-
General, and which made the passage out in 87 days, and
the passage home in 89 days ; but that was an unpa-
ralleled circumstance. He agreed with the First Lord
of the Admiralty, that it was not generally advisable
to employ ships of war in the conveyance of troops,
because he (Admiral Walcott) must say, without any
imputation upon the soldiers, that it was almost impos-
sible to maintain proper discipline in a crowded vessel.
He did not wish to create any alarm, but it was neces-
sary that they should not reord the existing crisis
lightly, and if the troops were to be sent out in ships of
the mercantile navy, he earnestly the Government to
take care that they were efficient and properly adapted
for the conveyance of soldiers. The First Lord of the
Admiralty had said that the ships would be engaged
under contract to land the troops within a certain time.
He hoped the right bon baronet would not excite a
spirit of competition among the commanders of these
vessels. In the daytime all hands would be ready to
shorten sail if a squall came on, but at night there would
be fow bands on deck, and the system of contract to
which he bad referred might induce the captains to in-
cur risks which sound prudence would c ondemn, by
carrying a heavy press of sail during the night. He
thought, therefore, that such rivalry should not be ex•
cited, but that the commanders of these vessels should
feel that full reliance was placed upon their ability, zeal,
and promptitude for reaching their destinations at the
earliest possible period, consistent with due regard for
the safety and the lives of those committed to their
charge. He would have been much gratified if a num-
ber of our screw line-of-battle ships could have been
employed in the conveyance of troops. They were ships
of unrivalled strength and speed, and they were com-
manded by officers upon whom the fullest reliance could
be placed. During the voyage of such ships at this
period of the year, from England to Point de Galle,
there would scarcely be 9 nine days during which the
lower deck ports could not be open on each side, which
would give a circula.ion of air of the greatest advantage
to the health of the troops. This class of ships would
also afford accommodation for 900 men, and military
officers aqached great importance to the shipment of
large numbers of troops in the same vessel, in con-
sequence of the facilities afforded for the maintenance of
discipline. The First Lord of the Admiralty said thatte
had not screw ships sufficiently manned for the convey-
ance of troops. He (Admiral Walcott) held that the whole
house, and not the Government alone, were responsible
for the diminution of the income tax in such a manner as
to render the reduction of our military and naval forces
unavoidable. The hon. member for Lambeth (Mr. W.
Williams) always contended for such reductions, but it
was a penny wise and pound foolish system. That was
proved in the case of the Crimean war, when enormous
sums were expended in raising recruits and in obtaining
stores and provisions. He thought that a great maritime
country like this ought always to be prepared to main-
tain the naval superiority, and the esepense of a few more
thousand soldiers or sailors would be amply returned in
case any emergency arose. He therefore submitted that,
though he was no advocate for keeping up a large army
or navy in time of peace, we ought to be at all times pre-
pared for every emergency. Each of those line-of-battle
ships could carry 800 men. The First Lord of the Ad-
miralty had stated that he bad not men at his disposal to
man them all, but the right bon. baronet might remove
all the seamen from the blockshipe, and put on board of
them the volunteers of whom he had spoker. With 5000
iren these line-of-battle ships could be readily brought
into commission, and if steamships could not be provided
is time to take the troopsin question to India he thought
it would be imperative on the part of the Government at
once to have recourse to the screw ships.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said he had heard it stated,
with considerable surprise, that the average passage to
India with steamships was beyond 100 days. As he
knew something of the subject, having been 16 years in
the Company's service, an 1 having made eight voyages
to India and China, he was able to state that only on
one occasion were they 100 clays at sea. That was in a
sailing vessel. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Wood.) Some
years ago, also, be had occasion to investigate the
logs of a considerable number of ships for the pur-
pose of assisting a friend of his who was interested in
the result, and he found that, on an average of 100
voyages, with ships fitted with small auxiliary steam-en-
gines, the calm weather in which it would be necessary
to get up steam was about 12 days. He considered our
system of transports was entirely wrong. In the first
place, he thought that iron transports 'were entirety a
1 mistake. It was perfectly impossible that they could
touoh ground in the Indian Seas, where coral reefs
abounded, without sustaining such damage as to risk the
loss of an army at once. Moreover, they were very hot,
and rolled heavily. These were faults and detects which
it was difficult to remedy. The Transit, of which they
bad heard so much he believed was originally an efli•
cient vessel ; but with her lane, heavy forecastle and
square quarters it was utterly impossible that she could
be otherwise than unusuitable for carrying troops. He
was able to bear out, from his own experience, what had
fallen from the hon. and gallant admiral (Admiral Wal-
cott) as to the condition of the men on landing in India.
It was requisite that they should be allowed on board of
ship during the voyage much exercise, such as dancing,
in orde: that they might be able to land in a condition
that would enable them to carry their knapsacks for the
first five miles. We bad the most perfect means of re-
mer:ying the existing state of things. Tnere was a class
of ships in the navy whioh went by the name of " The
Forty Thieves," and which would make the finest trans-
ports in the world. They had two tiers of ports, and en-
gines, which would enable them to make over 14 days
of calm weather, and perform the whole passage in from
70 to 80 days. (Hear.) He would put it to the First
Lord of .the Admiralty whether, in sending out these
troops to India, It would not be desirable to tow all the
ships round Cape Finisterre, which would have the effect
of materially accelerating their speed. If 12 or 15 line-
of-battle ships were fitted up with auxiliary screw en-
gines, and were manned with 250 able seamen each, and
with officers accustomed to the passage, a great result
would be achieved, because tha house must hold in
view that they must be in a condition to send troops
to India in larger numbers and more continuously than
they had ever done before. (Hear.) He had always ob-
served that the system of taking up ships for the trans-
port of troops was a commercial error, for it rai-ed the
price of freiglvs, kept our own ships out of commission,
and prevented us having a large additional reserve of
able seamen who would be able to man them. It the
boose would give him 250 men for each of those line-of•
battle ships be would undertake to navigate any of them
with the ereatest possible ease. (Loud cheers.)
Gen. PEEL briefly impressed upon the noble lord at
the head of the Governmei t the urgent necessity there
was for making arrangement for the systematic relief of
the large number of troops that would henceforward be
permanently employed in India.
Mr. G. DUNDAS said he thought the character of
these auxiliary screw ships was hardly understood, for
they were to all intents and purposes sailing vessels of a
very high class. Ha hell in his hand a return of the
number of vessels which had sailed from London to Cal-
cutta between the Ist of July, 1856, and Jan., 1857,
from which it appeared that 98 sailing ships had per•
formed the voyage during that period, the average pas-
sage of each being 130 days, and that seven auxiliary
screw steamers had performed it on an average of 93
days, showing a difference in favour of the latter of 37
days. (Hear.) It was curious to contrast the passages
made by her Majesty's steamers to the Cape of Good
Hope. The Hermes made the passage in 54 days. The
Vulean made the passage out in 72 days, and home in
64 days. The auxiliary screws, to which the First Lord
of the Admiralty bad referred, made the passage in 38
days. It was a marked difference, and confirmed the
statements which bad •been made of the advantage of
employing auxiliary screw in preference to sailing ships.
(Hear, hear.)
The first resolution with regard to the Persian war
was then agreed to.
THE CHINESE WAR.

On the vote of 400,000/, in aid of the naval operations
in China,

Sir J. PAKINGTON said he wished to ask her Ma-
jesty's Government for some further explanations with re•
gard to the present position of this country as affected
by our unfortunate quarrel with China. It was impossi-
ble, in his opinion, to avoid looking at the state of our
affairs in that part of the world without considerable
anxiety ; and he must say that the explauations of the
noble Lora at the head of the Government as to his hopes
of bringing the affair to a satisfactory conclusion had
been anything but satisfactory. In such an emergency
explanations, or at
the Government had a right to expect the support of the
House cf Commons ; but, on the other hand, the House
of Commons was entitled toexplicit
least an assurance from the Government that the put•lic
interest did not permit of such explanations being given.
He (Sir J. Pakington) could not understand the expla-
nations which had been given respecting the diversion of
the forces intended for China, to India. He had asked
the First Lord of the Admiralty distinctly whtther the
bone Government had given orders for the diversion of
the troops to India, and whether instructions bad been
sent to Ceylon by the Governor-General of India with
that object. The right hon. get tleman first said that no
instructions- had been sent from England, nor any autho-
rity from the Governor-General. (" No, no," from Sir C.
Wood.) Yes, it was said that orders haTnot been sent to
divert the troops, but that a a )mcnuoication bad been
made to Lord E'gin asking his a ansent for the diversion.
He (Sir J. Pa,kington) had the,. i asked what authority
action at Delhi, the noble lord
Lori Elgin had to give such co nsent, and the answer
was that "Flatus populi -upretnai lex" had been the prin-
ciplestep taken by Lord Canning He t
of
fatelh
is ou expressedntry
bhisad paeurtfhe oo
r.
eaerl: la
acted upon. Speaking on another subject, the
had asked a third time, and the answer head of the Go-
vernmentrobation of the
Go-
vernment
drievqeursiii.oanthoef
the troops. Now, he wished to say etnphatte':l)Y
(S i `Pas ajs. that Paktiling
that
ton)
if the state of affairs in India was such. as to
diversion of the tror,,,, c-oni China, be, for ono should 1
. • •
' ` ---iisht that in

uch an event event the Government wire bound to state -
explicitly the course which it was intended to take. He
Could not under-tand yet whether the emergency had
arisen ; if it had arisen, to what extent the Government
had gone to [nett it ; and thirdly, he could not under-
stand whether govei mnent had authorised the diversien
of the troops. It did not appear that the present lan-
guage of government was con►istent with their former
pr iceedings, or with the papers which hid recently come
home from India. He wished now to know what was
the actual amount of the necessity, and what were the
prospects of the government with respect to affairs in
China He was not going back to the affair of the lorcha,
although his opinions on that subject had not undergone
the slightest alteration ; but he must say that if, as was
generally reported, government had received warning re-
specting the volcano upon which we were standing in
India, the enormity of the quarrel with China was very
much aggravated. The language held by Sir M. Seymour
and Consul Parkes in China had all along been the lan-
guage of menace and dictation. Consul Parkes said to
Yeh, " I have made certain demands of you—the return
of the men and an apology—and if these demands are not
complied with within 24 hours, you shall feel the force of
the naval power of England to compol satisfaction of my
demands." He contended that only two conditions could
justify the use of such language—one, that it should be
held in a just cause; and the other, that the authorities
using had the power to enforce it. (Hear.) He thought
be should be able to show that this language hail been
rashly used, that the authorities bad no power to en-
force it, and that the menacing demands bad never
to this hour been enforced. Lord Clarendon had
said in another place that the authorities could not
have spared five months for reference to Eng-
land ; but now nine months had elapsed, and our posi-
tion in China was as bad as ever. In the first instance
Yeh refused to comply with our demands, and the result
was a bombardment—a bombardment which had been

denied on a former evening ; but that bombardment only
produced the ttestruction of the English factories. The
next step was Adn.,iral Seymour's notification of his in-
tention to erect a fortification in the Factory Garden, to
retain possession of Canton, and to keep the ships in the
river. But shortly afterwards it was folic(' impossible
to carry out these intentions, and the admiral was obliged
to return to Hong Kong. (The right hon. baronet here
read the admiral's despatch, the concluding words of
which demanded 5,000 troops from India.) Now, he
wished to ask, what had been the result of that applica-
tion I The noble lord had stated the number of troops
at Hong Kong to be sufficient ; but he (Sir J. Peking-
ton) did not understand, if that were true, why addi-
tional forces should nos, be sent out from this country.
He wished to know what had been the answer to this
application for troops from India ; and if such reinforce-
ment had • not been sent, he wished to know how the
noblelord could reconcile that fact with his assertion that
the forces at Hong Kong were sufficient for all exigen-
cies. The noble lord told them that Lord Elgin was to
carry on negotiations ; but bow was that to be reconcil-
ed with Lord Clarendon'a statement that the only lan-
guage that could efficaciously be used to the Chinese was
the language of force (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had
been told by an hon. member well acquainted with China,
that to send out Lord Elgin to Pekin was useless, as
rite E nperor would refer him back to Yeh, and it was
ea-y to anticipate what Yeh's answer would be. Already
all our demands and menaces had failed, and as regarded
the Chinese authorities, we were at this moment actually
in a defensive position. (Hear.) He could not but re-
gard these circumstances as most serious, and that the
prestige and authority of England were c•impromised in
those waters. He had condemned our Chinese policy
ab initio ; he had never since modified his opinion ; but
the government having once embarked in the quarrel,
he held that they were bound to see at least that our
honour remained unsullied, and that we were not e
posed to additional disgrace in China. He felt the truth
of Shakespere's saying, that " Good reasons must give
place to better ;" and if there were paramount reasons
for not sending the troops to China, let the house be told
the truth. But if they Gould not be sent, he should like
to know how we were to carry on this Chinese quarrel.
Where was General Ashbureham Was he to go with
the diverted troops, or were they to go, an army without
a leader. Where was L rd Elgin ? Was he to nego-
tiate at Pekin, or Canton ; above all, was he to carry
them on without the indispensable support of a military
force ? He (Sir J. Pakingtor.) thought that on all those
points that the house was entitled to much fuller ex-
planations tban had as yet been given by the govern-
ment.

Si.. C. WOOD.—I hope the house will allow me
to repeat some of the statements which I made the
other night, but which it is necessary I should do
in order to reconcile those inconsistencies and won-
derful contradictions which the right hon. gentleman
has conjured up. I must say Ido not unierstand the
object of a considerable portion of the right hon.
gentleman's observations. He said he was unwilling to
revive the discussiou of which we had had so much in
the preceding Parliament, but, nevertheless, he con-
trived to indulge in a few strong epithets of the injustice
of our cause and the cruelty of our conduct, Another
observation, too, I think he would have done well to
withoid until he bad read the papers which my right
hon. friend the President of the 133ard of Control has
just hid upon the table. The right hon. baronet attri-
buted great blame to the Government for undertaking
the war, having been warned of the volcano on which
we were standing in India. If he had waited fur the
papers be would have found that his.sueposition was
wrong, and that no such warning was ever given. How.
ever, to take the right hon. gentleman's complaints in
chronological order. He fir,t complains that threats
wire used by Mr. Con,ul Parkes which were never en
forced. It is quite true that Yeh was not brought to
reason by the coercion employed. It is quite true that.
Sir J. Bowring and persons more experienced in China

than he were mistaken in their estimate of the effect
which our operations would have upon the Chinese
authorities. They believed that each successive step
would have its effect in enforcing compliance with our
demands, and such was the universal opinion of the au-
thorities of Hongkong, which was to some extentju,ti-
fied bye preceding case, when Captain bl•Dougal with a
much less force obtained all that was required. If lam
called upon to say to what I attribute the non-compli-
ance of the Chinese with our demands on the present
occasion, it is the liberal course we have pursued, and
the anxious 'care we have displayed to spare life and
property, which have led the Chinese, l►ke most barba-
rous nations, to attribute our forbearance to a sense cf
weakness. I will just now say a few words in reply to
the tirade we have heard about the bombarlinEnt of

6ant;;:-The hon. member for Plymouth (Mr. White)
the other night gave a very correct account of what wai
done there and what was not.cione. The public buildings
were bombarded, as were also buildings in which troops
were seen, and magazines were exploded, but none of the
habitations of the peaceful portion of the people—the
inhabitants who took no part in the warlike proceedings.
It was not an indiscriminate bombardment, by which
the dwellings of the peaceful inhabitant& of Canton were
destroyed. I deny that such was the case. The only
passage in the Canton papers upon which such a state-
ment could be based is at pep 139, where Sir M. Sey-
mour says, "I am now shelling the city horn the Duch
Folly." (Hear.) The question is, what is the meaning
of these words Do they mean that the admiral was
shelling what the hon. member for Plymouth called truly
the peaceable portion of the city of Canton—that part
wherein were situated the dwellings of the people who
took no part in offensive operations against us ; or do
they mean e bat is expressed in another page of the
papers, wherein Sir M. Seymour Pus, "A. tee shells
were thrown into the city yesterday from the Dutch
Folly, in the direction of the Government buildings ?t,
Laird C. HAMILTON—That was on the 14th of De-
cember.
Sir C. WOOD—The question is whether the words
of Sir M. Seymour mean that or more. D. they mean
that he wantonly bombarded the city ? It has been my
duty most carefully to read all the despatches of Sir M.
Seymour, and, referring to what he has done on former
occasions as evidence to guide us in reading these dee-
patches, I think it is utterly impossible that be could
have done that which is attributed to him, which is
totally contrary to the spirit in which he conducted other
operations. Ho says in a despatch, which will be found
at page 97,
" I resumed operations on the following day (October
28) from the Dutch Folly. . I had previously given
the fullest warning to the inhabitants in the vicinity to
remove their persons and property (Copt. Hail having
landed twice for that purpose), in which operation they
were engaged during the whole of the night. Before the
landing took place I assembled the officers and urgently
impressed upon them (as I had previously done by writ-
ten order) the necessity of restraining the men from me.
lesting the persons and property of the inhabitants, eon-
fining warlike operations against the troops only ; and I
have pleasure in beam,: testimony to the iornearance
and good conduct of the seamen and marines, Nu
strageling took place, and when the orders were given to
re-embark, the men returned to their boats with regu-
larity and despatch."

Thus, when the course of military operations rendered it
necessary for him to attack these buildings, he sent his
flag-lieutenant twice on shore to induce the inhabitants to
quit with their property, and delayed his attack to give
them time to do so. With this view of the character of his
proceedings it is parfectly impossible to believe he
should upon an after occasion have done that which is
so contrary to the spirit of hie instructions, so contrary
to the feeling; of an Englishman, and so contrary to
the character of an officer who is designated even by
those who differ from the Government as one of the best
and most humane of men. (Hear, hear.) I said in ooe
of the discussions which took place upon the tun;ect,
that hon. gentlemen were not justified in placing the
construction which they did upon these words of Ad-
miral Seymour. I said I was convinced that what he
did mean was, that he simply bombarded the public
buildings and places where troops were al-enabled. I
wrote to Sir M. Seymour to ask him whether the con
struction which I placed upon the words was the correct
one. I can truly say that there was not the slightest
feeling in my mind with reference to the contradiction
whica I had received as to the right interpretation of the
passage to which I have referred, but when I a'luded to
the matter the other night I certaibly thought that those
who had denounced a gallant officer for his inhumanity
would have received with pride and satisfaction the con-
tradiction that wiped away such an imputation from the
character not only of that gallant officer, but of the nation
to which be belonged. (Hear.) I was astonished at the
attempt to throw discredit on the statement then made,
seeing it was one put forward to remove an imputation
cast on the nation as well as on the character of one of
one of our most gallant officers. (Hear.) As I have
already said, I wrote to Sir M. Seymour with reference
to the I.lleged bombardment of Canton, and from him I
received an answer, in which occurs the following pas.
sage :
"I must nut omit to thank you for the caution you

are kind enough to give me in the instance (p. 139),
where I inform Sir J. B. Oa% '1 ant now sheding the
town,' which, it is scarcely necessary for me to say, in-
correctly conveye I more than the reality. Tue wit lat
home w li by and by learn that there has been no indi3•
criminate c,estruction of Chinese per- ons or prop: ry at
any period of our operations, and how studiou-ly I have
avoided ouch a repugnant course, notwithstanding the
roost urgent advice for a very different proceeding from
classes many and various.'"
(Hear, hear.) Since I came down to the house I have
had put into my hands confirmatiqn of this statement
from an independent quarter—viz., from the Belgian
Consul at Shanghai. In a letter written by that gentle-
man, and dated " Hong Kcn.g, May 9, 1857," he says :
" Admiral Seymour has conducted all his operations
in the most humane and mildest ma.-aner. I can, as an
eye-witne s, guarantee that the so-called bombardment
of Canton was so conducted as to inflict as little injury
as pose We on the inhabitants, while punishing the au-
thoriti.s.'

(Hear, hear.) I hope after these statements from the
gallant admiral himself, and from an eye-witness in the
Belgian Consul, that the imputation cast on us as a na-
tion and on that gallant officer will not be repeated in
this house, and that in future a more generous view
will be taken of the conduct of officers discharging re-
sponsible duties in distant parts of the world. (Hear.)
So much for the alleged bombardment of Canton. It is
true, as the right hon. baronet sates, that the measures
then taken had.not the effect of inducing Cstnimissioner
Yell and the authorities at Canton to come to terms
upon the subject in dispute. After an attack on Canton
the vessels were withdrawn and moored at intervals on
the river, from Bird s-nest Fort to Hong Kong, as it was
thought necessary to have a check on the war junks
and keep open the communication. It is true, also,
that the Governor-General of India was requested to
send a body of troops to assist in making an attack on
C unmissioner Yeh, and that he declined to send them ;
but it appears that afterwards two regimen's were sent
from Madras to take up their position in Honkong. Such
was the state of •wat,ers wben last we received intelli-
gence from China. My noble when this question
was first before the house annotieced—aud the announce-
ment was received with the greatest satisfaction iiy the
house that Lcrd Elgin had be en • • t to negotiate with the
Imperial government of Cni;es, to endeavour to get the
present dispute brought to asettlernent, and to place mat-
ters on a sounder foundation for the future. My noble
friend (Lord Palmerston) repeated that announcement
two or three nigh•s ago; and therefore I had hardly
understood what the right hon. gentleman meant when
he asked what were the views with which Lord Elgin
was going to China. (Hear, bear.) Surely the right
hon. gentleman could not have mi•understoud the state-
ment made by my noble friend only two or three nights
ago, and yet he has asked for what purpose Lord Elgin
has gone out to China. It was former stated that the
Government had sent out 5,000 men to China, that it
was not thought desirable they should arrive before
autumn as the climate of China was such as to renuer
it impossible for European troops to act darirg the hot
weather. It was. expected they would arrive at the
time when Lord Elgin reached the north after com-
pleting his negotiations at Pekin, when, if his efforts
bad been successful, and all questions were satisfactorily
settled, they would be again sent home. If, on the
other hand, his negotiations failed, then the troops
would just have arrived there at a time when their
services were most desirable. Up to the present mo
went eo vessel with troops bad arrived in China, but
seven or eight gunboat= which were sent out to assist in
putting down piracy—alike hateful to the Chinese
authorities and to ourselves—are in those waiters, and
will be of great advantage in following the junks up the
waters. Meanwhile the state of Canton is one of
extreme distress from want of provisions, while the
authorities are at their wits' end for money.
At all other places in China with which we
have communication the greatest harmony prevails
between us and the Chinese authorities; and
piracy has to a great extent been put down. (Hear.)
But the right hon. baronet asks why we do not take
efficient means for prosecuting hostilities with China ;
though he has been informed time after time that it is
Lep eisible our troops can act in China till the autumn,
and they would be there when Lord Elgin returned from
Pekin. Teen the right hon. gentleman with a grave
face asked what were the circumstances that induced
'he Governor-General to divert the troops en their way
to Caine,. I was certainly astonished to hear that ques-
tion, as I thought it was obvious enough what those
circumstances were, and that they were a perfect justi-
fication of the course which the Governor-General hid
taken (Hear, hear.) I should like to know what the
right hon. gentlemen means by saying we are not pro•
secutitig the war in Chins with vigour. The right boo.
gentleman asked me last Friday week a Nether any orders
had been given to Lord Elgie by the Government to for•
ward aey po-tion of the tr ops then on their way to China
to India. I replied that no such orders bad been given.
He then a-kel if Lord Canning had sent any orders to
divert the troops from Ceylon, and I stated that, so far
as I was aware, no such orders had been sent. He then
asked whe'her Lord Elgin had authority, in case of re-
ceiving an application from Lord Canniue, to divert the
troops. My answer was that when Lerd Elgin left this
country we had no idea that such a need would arise
in India, and therefore no authority had been given
bin on the subject. That was then the exact state
of the eerie ; but on Saturday morning a different
stale of things arose. A telegraphic message was then
received from India, and the first measure which we
took upon its receipt was to atop the India mail which
left here on Friday night, and to send out orders

to Singapore to stop all the troops who had not passel
there, aed to divert them at once to India. At the some
time we received ieteliigence that though Lord Canning's
letter had net reached Lord El;in at Ceylon it had over-
taken him at Singapore, and tbat Lord Elgin, acting
upon a most proper estimate of the emergency of the
case, had taken upon himself to divert all the troops ori-
ginally destined for China to the graver need which had
arisen in India. That was the step which Lord Elgin
took, acting upon the principle sales populi supretna lex,
and the measure has met with the perfect approval of the
Government. I believe that the whole of the troops sent
from this country and inteeded for China will neces-arily
touch at Singapore, and that they will th-re be diverted to
meet the greater need in India. With respect to the
state of the Chinese hostilities, according to the last ac-
counts Sir M. Seymour held his own in the river of Can-
ton. Lord Elgin was at Singapore waiting the arrival of
the Shannon frigate to take him on to Canton. He will,
when he reaches China, open negotiations with toe Em-
peror, and, acting very much on his own responsibility,
he will be guided in what he does by the necessities of
the case, and he will have ample naval force there for
his purpose. Probably before he arrives the wor junks in
the river will have been destroyed, and no further opera-
tions will be undertaken in his absence. He goes with
full powers to negotiate, and he will act upon his own
responsibility and with that judgment, have no doubt,
for which every one gives him credit ; so that it would
not be wise, I think, to attempt to fetter his discretion
by too positive instructions from home. The house is
aware that a large quantity of gunboats have been sent
out in addition to the force originally despatched. A
number of marines have also been sent out, so that we
shell be able to exercise even a more severe pressure
than at present upon Canton, and shall be in a better po-
sition to hold the river until further measures be deter-
mined upon. My belief is that there will be no interrup-
tion of peaceful relations with any part of Caine, with
the exception of Canton, because never have the authori-
tids from ether parts of the empire evinced such friendly
relations towards us as they have done since our
operations have been commenced at Canton. They are
grateful for the assistance which we have rendered in
putting down piracy on the seaboard, and I believe that
I am perfectly justified in stating that hostilities will
be confined to Canton alone. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. HAMILTON felt deeply that England was

. ,
compromising her honour and her high character in en-
tering upon these hostilities with China, and he protes-
ted against the right hon. gentleman who had just sat
down endeavouring 0 cast upon those who differed from
him the invidious imputation that they condemned the
gallant admiral whose misfortune it was to be obliged
to be engaged in these discreditable proceedings. As
Sir M. Seymour was a gallant admiral, he must from his
inmost soul detest the task which was entrusted to him,
and must feel di gradation and humiliation in pouring
shot and shell and fireballs jut° a city full of a peaceable
commercial population. Because he (Lord C Hamilton)
was obliged to condemn the conduct of the Government,
then let it net be supposed that he blamed the gallant
admiral. The right hon. gentleman, who began his
speech by asking the ll,•use to I,ok into the blue-book
which contained a narrative of three events, fell into a
strange err o. in quoting them by disregarding the dates
of the different dispatches, and treating them as if they
were arranged in the hoe's according to their dates. In
this manner the right hon. gentlenas was in error as to
the period at which the admiral wrote that he was shel-
ling the city from the Dutch Folly, and he appeared to
be in error also as to the period at which the inhabitants
were said to have been warned previ usly to the shelling
the city from the Dutch Fell. The right hon. gentLe
man had endeavoured to meet a public statement by
a private letter, eut his vindication entirely rested on
'a confusion of dates. It was said that the object of the
admiral in the Cuinese seas was to prevent the destruc-
tion of private propeity. He had no doutt of the ad-
miral's desire, but it, was impossible, if the admiral acted
in conformity with his instructions, but there must
have been an enormous destruction of private property.
And what possible effect c tuld
sbtaatv,eei nthpero/d'iuiceendi bovf
tbeqs cruelties, occasioned, as
China, by a " terrific and continued cannonade ter five
hours," and by "a tremendous coefi,graiion," as men-
tioned in another account ? Toe sufferings of the inhabi-
tants of Canton could not force Commissioner Yeh, who
was acting under orders from the Emperor, into compli-
ance, and therefore the idle:thin of those sufferings was
wanton and cruel. But when the house heard so much
about moderation it was right that the house should
know that the admiral rather discountenanced modera-
tion, for it would be seen in the blue-13)ok that ho said,
"compulsion is the only argument to convince the
Chinese," and " moderation is considered but another
envaemefer, want of means to enforce compliance." now-
rp the admiral was not to blame for acting on his
instructions ; but the right hon. gentleman had com-
pletely failed in his attempt to prove by a private letter
that the impressions borne out by these public de
snatches was not correct. The noble lord the other
night sail that the public had approved the proceedings
at China, but, if that were the case, why did not the
noble lord propose to wipe from the journals of the house
the resolution adopted in the last Parliament ? If the
noble lord made such a. proposition he would find that
the house would come to a similar decision, for not a
single person representing a large constituency had de-
clared that he would concur in an approval of the pro-
ceedings at Canton. The noble lord knew very well
that other circumstances besides approval of what had
occurred in China affected the decision at the hustings,
and indeed some of the noble lord's colleagues had been ~

obliged, in order to please their Constituents, to state in
'their add.e.Ees that they did not like the whole of the
proceeding there, but that they should have been want-
in libtrality if they bad not supported a distant
public frvant.

Sir C. NAPIER did net know what the noble lord
meant when he said that the admiral in the China seas
h +.(l received instructions to c mirnit horrible cruelties.
Toe admiral only received orders from the Admiralty,
and if he had received orders to commit horrible cruelties
he woul I not have obeyed the orders. (Elear.) He bad
himself received a communication fr an Admiral Sey-
mour, in which that admiral said that they did cot call
it war in China, but only the punishment of some people
for insulting the British flag ; and that they threw a
-shed into the town occasionally. He believed that was
quite right—(a laugh)—for it wal the only way to bring
the war to an end. (Hear, bear.) Under present cir-
cumstances at Canton weapons mu.t be used at a dis-
tance, and nothing else was to be done tot to throw a
shill in now and then in moderation. (A. laugh ) To
hear the noble lord one might supp)se that Admiral
Seymour was burning; the whole Cnine.e3 at Canton, but
he underst9od from that gallant admiral that he thought
it hard that he should be abused by persons who were
thousands of miles from the scene of action and who
knew nothing of what occurred. (Hear, bear.)
General TUOUPSON bel eyed that the transactions
at China arose out of what was called a trade falsehood,
which was not regarded with all the dislike which other
falsehoods created. There was evidence of a foregone
conc'usion to quarrel with the Chinese, and a wretched
and dishonourable subterfuge was got up about a miser-
able boat and some men who were taken from it.
The resolution was then saved to, as were the remain-
ing votes of the Comm:ttee of Supply.