The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-19 00:00:00

TAE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY. ,EVENING, MARCH 19, 18n.

Clauses 247 to 250 were agreed to, as were also the re •
maining clauses.
The committee then proceeded to consider the postponed
clauses.

Clauses 13, 14, and 33 were agreed to.
On clause 37,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he intended to pro-
pose as a subsikute a new clause fixing the salaries of the
present official assignees in town at £1,200 a-year, and in
the country at £l,OOO a-year ; the future assignees in town
to have £l,OOO a-year, and in the country £BOO a-year. It
was also his intention to propose the substitution of a new
clause for clause 44, abolishing the fees on private as well
as public sittings.
Clauses 38, 39, 47, and 48 were agreed to.
The AT T ORN EY-GENERAL said that it was intended
to propose new clauses as to the payment of messengers.
This would be done on the bringing up of the report.
Several verbal amendments were made in the schedules.
In reply to Mr. MOFFATT and Mr. MURRAY,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was not intended
to interfere with the privilege of solicitors appearing for
their clients either in court or in chamber. They would be
able to appear in every court except the supreme court.
The ATTORNEY- GENERAL proposed the new clause
fixing the salaries of the official assign ees.
Mr. MURRAY objected to the proposed sum of £1,200
a-year for official assignees in London, and moved that it
be reduced to £BOO a-year, the difference in their remu-
neration to be made up from a scale of fees sanctioned by
the Lord Chancellor.
Mr. WALPOLE objected to the proposed mode of pay-
ing the official assignees. He thought that they ought not
to be remunerated by fixed salaries. They could not pay
the official assignees by means of fees without perpetuating
the disproportion complained of ; and, upon the whole, there.
fore—though he would not say that even that would remedy
the difficulties—the committee on the subject had come to
the conclusion that it would be best to pay in part by fees
and in part by salaries.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it should be recol-
lected that the official assignees under this bill occupied a
very different position from that which they had hereto-
fore occupied. They had now got an express and definite
duty, to be discharged under the superintendence of the
Court, and the Court would virtually superintend every
proceeding. The house would observe that they were re-
quired to make returns half-yearly of the business trans.
acted, which would afford an opportunity for a comparison
between the different official assignees. They had found it
impossible to put any limits to their salary if they were to
be paid by fees. He thought it better to give these gentle-
men credit for having a proper sense of the responsibilities
and duties of their position, in like manner as they gave
credit to judges and others. (Hear, hear.) There was no
more reason to suppose that those gentlemen would neglect
their duties than that the commissioners or the judges
would do so.
The amendment fixing the salary at £1,200 a year was
then agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was ordered to
stand part of the bill.
A new clause was then introduced to give solicitors the
power of practising in the court.
Mr. MALINS said the messengers were an ancient and
deserving body of public servants in connexion with this
court. No body of men had more faithfully performed
their duty with fewer public losses. 'The oldest of them
had been 42 years in the court, and the youngest 12 years.
Their emoluments had been considerable, and they now
asked Parliament not to disturb all their plans for life,
although they did not make any inordinate demands.
They only claimed benefit for the present occupants of the
offices they had so long held, and proposed that the new
regulations should apply only to their successors. He moved
—" That every messenger holding office at the time of the
passing of this act shall receive, in lieu of fees, an annual
salary equal to the amount of the fees received by him after
deducting his working expenses, such salary to be assessed
by the chief registrar, and to be estimated upon an average
of the sums received by such messenger for a period of five
years last preceding the passing of this act, such salary to
be paid at the same times and in like manner as the salaries
to be paid to the officers mentioned in the schedule (A) to
this act." This was just what had been done in the case
of the official assignees, and he saw no reason why the.same
should not be done in the case of the messengers. He hoped
they would lean to the side of justice to the individual
rather than avoid doing so for the sake of some small
amount which might be withheld on the ground of public
benefit.

Mr. BRISTOW thought that individuals who had done
their duty for so many years with satisfaction to the
country should be treated with the greatest consideration,
and therefore he would support the proposition just made.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said one of the greatest objections to the
clause was, that it did not fix a minimum. One gentleman
engaged in the department referred to had £9OO a-year for
some years, and he very probably would not object to £5OO
a-year in future; but then there should be some certainty
as to the amount of income which such public servants
receive. (Hear, hear.) He would vote against the
amendment.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was his
*Jam, Cho 4. 5t shouia receive £9OO a-year,
but he intended to insert a provision that in future the
salary should not exceed £5OO. Those who would be de-
prived of compensation fees would now be amply repaid by
an adequate pension.
Mr. MALINS said he was not in a situation to divide
on the question, but as those officers received fees just as
the judges did under the sanction of the law, they ought
not to be suddenly deprived of them without compensation.
The amendment was withdrawn.
Mr. GARNETT moved the following clause :—" And
whereas the fees and emoluments of registrars of County
Courts before which any petitions under an act of Parlia-
ment made and passed in the first and second years of the
reign of her present Majesty, chapter 110, and an act made
and passed inthe 10th and 11th years of the same reign, cap.
102, have been heard, may be seriously diminished by the
operation and effect of this act, and it is just and reasonable
that such registrars should be indemnified against such loss;
be it enacted, that at the end of two years next after the
passing of this act the Commissioners of her Majesty's
Treasury shall, upon the application of any such registrar,
by such means and in such manner as they may think pro-
per, inquire into and ascertain the annual amount, to be
computed upon an average of seven years immediately pre -
ceding the passing of this act, of the fees and emoluments
received by such registrars for their own use under the au-
thority of the said acts ; and the said commissioners shall,
upon the like application, also ascertain, in such manner as
they may think proper, the total amount of fees and emolu-
ments received by such registrars for their own use under
this act during each year after the passing of this act, and
the said commissioners are hereby authorised and empow-
ered annually to award to such registrar the deficiency,
when and so often as the same shall occur, between the last
mentioned amount and the average annual amount so as-
certained as aforesaid, and the sum awarded shall be paid
out of any moneys which may be provided by Parliament
for that purpose : Provided always, that the aggregate
amount of such indemnity so to be paid to and amongst all
such registrars in any one year shall not exceed the sum of
£2,000.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this was a
most objectionable clause for compensation. It meant this
—that the house was not to improve the law unless they
compensated the persons in question, who were not entitled,
to it.

The clause was rejected.
Lord STANLEY said that this bill imposed additional
duties on the county courts, and he understood the hon.
and learned Attorney-General to say tiiat an opportunity
would be afforded for considering tb's question of increasing
the salaries of those judges en account of the increased
duties imposed upon them, Now, it was clear that this
matter must emanate fror.4 the Government, for no inde-
pendent member coulft take upon himself to make a pro-
posal of this kind, a4d he, therefore, wished to know when
the opportunity would be afforded of discussing this
question.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he was de-
sirous c equalising the salaries of the county judges, but
he had no fund from bankruptcy to enable him to deal with
the question ; but there must be a committee upon stamps
and salaries, with respect to the compensation to be
granted to messengers. When that question came before
the house, then the noble lord would be in a position to
raise the question to which he had referred, for the increase
must come out of the Consolidated Fund.

Sir J. PAKINGTON expressed his approval of the pro-
posed addition to the salaries of county court judges on
account of the increased duties they would have to perform.
He should wish, however, tilt to have tho opinion of the
chairman as to the mode in which that object was now to be
attained.

Mr. BRIGHT said he thought it was premature to vote
away an increase of salary to the 59 judges of county courts
before the house knew anything about the amount of addi-
tional work that would be thrown upon them. It was ob-
vious, too, that the work would bo very unequally divided,
and county court judgeships were offices so much sought
' after, that if the hon. and learned gentleman had waited
another year, he might have found that no increase would
be r4eeded at all.
Mr. CLAY reminded the committee that county court
judges were new receiving £1,200 a year only, instead of
£1,500, as was first intended by Parliament, and which only
a few of the oldest appointed still enjoyed. Those gentle-
men, therefore, had a very good title to the proposed increase.
Mr. WALPOLE said that the rates of remuneration of
judges were extremely various. They were paying com-
missioners in bankruptcy £l,BOO a year, some county court
judges £1,500 a year, and others only £1,200. By this bill
certain duties were to be transferred f:om the Bankruptcy
Court to the county courts, and as it would be impossible to
give satisfaction so long as the existing anomaly prevailed,
the subject ought now to undergo careful consideration with
a view to its final adjustment on proper principles. He
should like to know, however, whether it would be possible
to take the report and to re-commit the bill on the same
- -

day. lle doubted whether the suggection of the bon.7nd
learned gentleman was practicable.
Mr. DISRAELI observed that it would not be desirable
to report the bill before Easter, The subject of the non-

traders clauses ought undoubtedly to be fairly discussed,
and therefore the report had better be taken after Easter.
TLe ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the discussion
on tlat part had already lasted two hours, and would not
require much more time to conclude. He had promised,
however, that the suggestions he had received should meet
with due alteration. He hoped the committee would have
the dscussion on the report on Thursday next.
Mr, S. ESTCOURT thought that course would be pro-
ductire of great inconvenience, and suggested that the dis-
cussion should take place after Easter, when they would
have ample opportunity of fully considering it in the month
of Arcil.
Lout PALMERSTON said the discussion would not take
very bug, and it could be easily finished on Thursday next.
Mr. HENLEY reminded the committee that a change
had ttken place that evening in what was called the
"deal men's clause," with which the public had a right to
be informed. The amendments made ought to be printed,
and then the discussion on the report could take place after
Easter. The proposition was, not whether they were to finish
the dente on the report on Thursday, but whether they
shouh vote several thousands of pounds extra to county
court ,udges in one night without due consideration.
TheATTORNEY-GENERAL was most anxious to give
every Etoility for discussion, but he could not consent to
anything which would prevent the passing of the bill. He
intended on Thursday to move that the report be brought
up and the amendments considered.
Mr. HENLEY protested against so large a sum of
money being voted and reported in one day.
Mr. BRIGHT suggested the postponement of the con-
sideration of the clauses which increased salaries until next
week. It was impossible to discuss such a question in one
day.

After a few words from Mr. DEEDES and Mr. CONING-
HAM,
The CHAIRMAN left the chair, and reported the bill to
the house amidst cheers.
WAYS AND MEANS.

On the question that the house go into committee of
Ways and Means,
Mr. CONINGHAM said he wished to impress on the
noble lord at the head of the Government the absolute
necessity sending a vessel out to recall Sir B. Walker.
The committee on the Admiralty Board would be of no use
whatever. In fact Sir B. Walker was required not so much
to defend the Admiralty as to account for his own want of
energy aad efficiency in the department of which he had so
long hadthe control.
Lord PALMERSTON said that that was a question not
to be discussed in the house, but was one for the committee.
The house then went into committee, and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
disallowance of the items £140,000 and £ll,OOO for stores,
until the report of the committee on transport service had
been received and considered.
The notion was agreed to, and the house resumed.
POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
second reading of this bill.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT objected to the haste with which
this bill was pressed forward. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had given the house no sufficient reason for its
adoption, or any ground to believe that the machinery of
the Post-office would be adequate to the discharge of the
new duties proposed to be put upon it by the bill. It was
a question which the house ought seriously to consider
whether this was a responsibility to which they ought to
give consent. As matters stood at present, if any fraud
was committed, the Government could at once lay their
hand upon the offending party; but by the proposed bill,
in reference to the places of deposit, they would not have
such facility of power. The risk to which he wished to call
the attention of the house in the present instance was
that for every £lOO deposited the Government undertook to
pay the amount ; but if the scheme of increasing the places
of deposit were increased in the manner proposed, and if the
per centage was increased as proposed, that risk would be
increased, and the depositor or the country might suffer.
He would not at that late hour of the night enter into de-
tails, but he questioned whether it was possible to carry out
such a scheme without increased risk of fraud and loss. He
very much doubted whether this plan would not in some
respects become popular, and whether it would not, in his
opinion, in time, entirely supersede the existing savings
banks, because of its secrecy, for it was well known that the
labouring poor, when they had a little money saved, and
when they desired to place it in a savings bank, did not de
posit it in the bank nearest to them, but, in their desire not
to have it known, went to a savings bank some distance from
the locality in which they resided. But such was the
secrecy with which all matters connected with the Post-
office was generally transacted that such a precaution, as to
immediate localities, would be obviated, and the depositor
would have no hesitation in availing himself of the Post-
office. There were. however, in his opinion, risks to the
public int...csc in the provisians of the proposed bill which
ought, while there was time, to be guarded against. He
thought it would be better they should look the danger in
the face, and determine upon the system which it would be
expedient to adopt. What he desired was, that they should
have some central body standing between the Government
and the other parties. What he should desire was, that all
these matters should be seriously considered in going into
committee. He feared that the only place in which these
savings banks could be established would be in towns, and
in that case they would come into competition with the
existing savings banks. He would not, however, object to
the second reading of the bill.
Mr. FORSTER thought the proposal by this bill would
be a great boon. He believed it would not be possible to
dovetail the proposed system with that at present in force.
It might be requisite to provide a different sort of persons to
work the Post-office savings bank system than those who
have held the office of postmasters and postmistresses.
Mr. HANBURY took exception to the objections raised
by Mr. Estcourt, and expressed approval of the scheme,
which he had hoped would supersede the existing savings
banks.

Mr. BAINES thought the country should feel very much
obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for introducing
this simple measure which ho believed would prove of sub-
stantial benefit to the population, especially to the indus-
trious classes. The money order system had worked well,
as was shown in its great increase during the last ten years.
There was no interest in the existing savings banks to pre-
vent the adoption of the proposed plan. The latter, he
believed, would work on a self-supporting system, and had
the approval of Mr. Rowland Hill and other Post-office
authorities.

Mr. AYRTON reserved to himself the right of discuss
ing the details of the measure when they went into corn
mittee.
After a few words from Mr. PHILLirs and Mr. Hop

WOOD,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the limits of the deposits in this new plan would be the same
as in the existing system. It was intended to extend the
operation of the measure to Ireland. To attach the new
plan, which he believed to be perfectly impracticable, to any
ipfproije
tras
he re:::1
local
g the organisation of the existing
P., led him to believe would in the attempt
turn out a failv:,.o. The proposed undertaking possibly
bscanhekms,ehifosrexrpeemnoednecl_lirt
might assrjine large dimensions. A great portion of the
system rested in the confidence placed by depositors
al managers. If the old savings banks suffered
establishment of the new banks, it could only
arise from the estimation of the latter in the eyes of the
industrious classes. The object of the bill was to provide
facilities for encouraging habits of saving and economy on
the part of the people. It was not, however, intended to
make at once all money order offices savings banks. These
establishments would be gradually expansive, and in pro-
)portion to the demand made for them. Self support would
be the fundamental principle of the measure, and no at-
tempt by a higher rate of interest would be made to draw
away deposits from existing savings banks. He hoped the
rate of interest would be carefully considered by the corn •
mittee, but 113 was of opinion that it would be better to
fix the amount of interest rather too low than too
high. There was no new financial principle in the bill,
but undoubtedly it would have the effect of in-
creasing the amount of deposits, and consequently the
sum held bythe Government on call. Experience led him
to believe that holding such deposits would not be attended
with any danger. The system was a safe one with a mode-
rate rate of interest, and the disadvantages were not to be
weighed against the benefits which it was calculated to
confer. The present Post-office machinery was, in his
opinion, admirably adapted for carrying out the provisions
of the bill, and would be fully equal to any requirements
that should be made for the effectual working of the .plan.
He did not see any manner in which an organic connexion
could be established between the Post office savings banks
and the existing savings banks.
The bill was read a second time.

The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a second time.
The Consolidated Fund 04,000,000) Bill passed through
committee.

The Marine Mutiny Bill was read a second time, as was
also the Mutiny Bill.
Mr. WHITE gave notice that in committee he would
move the omission of the clauses respecting courts martial
and corporal punishment.

The Constructive Notice Amendment Bill was read a
second time.

The house adjourned at ten minutes to two o'clock.

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LAW IN7ELLIgENCE—(77nB Day).

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Peers Present—The Lord Chanceller, Lord Cranworth,
Lord Wensleydale, Lord Chelmsford, Lord Kingsdown,
and other Peers.
APPEAL-JUDGMENT.-LORD ERAYBOOK V. THE
ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

This was an appeal from a decision of the Court of Ex-
chequer, by which they held that, under the Succession
Duties Act of 1853, the appellant was liable to pay legacy
duty at the rate of 10 per cent. on his paternal succession.
The Lord Chancellor, in delivering judgment, was of
opinion that the judgment of the Court below should be
affirmed.

Lord Wensleydale and Lord Kingadown were of opinion
that the appellant not only came within the operation of
this act to pay 10 per cent. duty on his paternal succession,
but he was also within the exception of the act which de-
clared that 1 per cent. duty only was payable in respect of
property acquired by himself otherwise than by succession.
The Lord Chancellor -evaded the decree of the Court be-
low to this extent, and dismissed the appeal.