The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-21 00:00:00

taining a distinct assurance from the Government on
both these important subjects. He felt satisfied, what-
ever might be the opinion of the public at the ensuing
election, that it was humanly impossible that the ulti-
mate judgment of the public should not maintain the in-
dependent honest vote of the House of Commons.
Earl GRANVILLE said the noble earl had gone into
a variety of subjects, to some of which he would briefly
a'lude. With regard to the coalition, he might observe
that as soon as Lord Derby declared that no understanding
existed between himself and other parties he threw the
matter out of consideration, merely stating that there were
some grounds for the public believing that something
more than a coincidence had occasioned the vote which
had been given in the other house. The noble earl had
adverted to the finances of India and the state of affairs
in China. Now he (Earl Granville) did not see how,
when we were in a state of hostility with any portion of
a c ,untry with which we had commercial relations, that
state of hostility could fail to affect to a considerable de-
gree our own finances and the finances of other countries
in constant commercial relations with that country. But
when the noble earl talked wi:la such alarm about the
finances of India, those finances must, not only under
the present Government, but under the Government of
the noble earl, have been in a very unsound state, if
they c.iuld not stand the inconvenience of a certain
temporary cessation of commercial relations with China.
The noble earl had alluded to the rise which took place
in discounts in the month of January last. But lie
ought, not to have forgotten that in the course of the
time which it would take to convey the intelligence to
India, the rate of interest in this country became exorbi•
taut. When the noble earl complained of the unsound-
ness of trade because it was carried on with borrowed

capital, he begged to inform the noble earl that, although
the trade of the country was perfectly sound at this mo-
ment, yet that the great bulk of that trade was carried
on by advances of mousy. (Hear.) The Government
could only deal with the exigencies of the public service
as they arose, and parties could only obtain money by
having recourse to the necessary amount of interest.
The noble earl intimated that there would be a stoppage
of commerce in consequence of our hostilities with China.
Now the fact was that enormous supplies of tea were on
their way to this country, and he did not I*lieve there
would be any such stoppage of commerce as that sug-
gested by the noble earl. There could be no doubt that
hostilities would inflict an injury en the opium trade; but,
whilst on the one hand the noble earl complained that the
authorities were not more active in putting down the im-
portation of opium into China, he now complained that
Sir J. Bowring's procsedinge had indirectly that effect.
(Hear, hear.) The noble earl, in alluding to the necessity
of economy had gone through several of the miscellaneous
estimates. No doubt satisfactory explanations could be
given on many of those points if the subject had been
regularly brought under discussion, and it wool I have
been much more satisfactory if the noble earl bad given
due notice of the matter which he was about to introduce
for the purpose of damaging the Government, in order
that some reply might have been given to him. With
regard to the question of printing, no doubt a great evil
existed ; but the expense arose in a great measure from
the immense number of returns moved for by members,
and therefore Parliament was more to blame on that
point than the Government. The expense of convicts
had been attended to by the noble earl. No doubt the
cessation of transportation had tended enormously to
the increased charge under that head. Then, with
regard to the 60. new heads of charge which the noble
earl intimated had been introduced by Lord Palmer-
ston's Government within the lest three years—
Lord Palmerston's Government bad not been in
existence so long and one matter appeared to
have escaped the observation of the noble earl, and that
was that one of the lest acts of Mr. Gladstone was to
transfer innnmerableitems from the Consolidated Fund to
annual votes, amounting to 1,200,0001. The noble earl
then commented on the increased expenses of education.
On that point he had some difficulty in arguing with the
noble earl. He could argue with a man and admit what
was true as to the extravagance of indulging in turtle,
champagne, and attic ea of that description ; but if he
heard a person contending that pure air was sufficient for
the food of man, and that meat and drink were entirely
useless, he must decline entering into any argument as to
economy or extravagance. With regard to the question
of education, he and the noble earl started from entirely
different points. Daring the Indian debates, the noble
earl said that it would lead to the loss of our empire if
we began to educate the 150,000,000 people of that coun-
try; and on another occasion the noble earl complained,
with a sigh, of the amount of money which had been
wa*tedon the education of the peoplewhich mighthave been
better employed in the construction of gunboats; and no
doubt the noble earl thought that 100,0001. spent on edu-
cation was so much money thrown away. He was rather
surprised that Mr. Gladstone had the other night brought
f irward an accusation of extravagance with respect to
that vete. Now he could meet Mr. Gladstone on level
ground, because they both agreed as to the advantage of
educating the people. They eat together for three years
in the Council of Education, during which time there
was no difference of opinion as to expenditure except on
one small and contemptible point. His object had been
to make the system as efficient and economical as pos-
sible. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was the most
economical of public men, and endeavoured day by day to
reduce expenditure. The Committee of Council were
placed almost in the same position. Hardly a single day
paused in which some important body did not beg for
the removal of some stringent provision, and if all appli-
cations were attended to, the result would be to in-
crease the annual expenditure some 25 or 50 per cent.
He believed that double the money now spent might
be expended economically and efficiently for the purpose
of raising the int Ilectual and social condition of the lower
claeies, When a noble earl opposite put forth education
as one of the cries of the Conservative party and he (Earl
Granville) remarked that the noble earl ought to have
intimated whether he agreed with the views of Mr. Hen-
ley or Sir J. Pakington, he hardly imagined that he had
to deal with an advocate of popular ignorance in the
noble earl who had just spoken. (A. laugh.) Economy
was a very popular cry, and one which he was glad to
hear, because a pressure for economy was useful on any
Government, and he should be ashamed of his colleagues
if they did not economise the public expenditure. When
he was in the House of Commons he remembered a man
who was the very reverse of the noble earl—he meant
Mr. Hume. (A laugh.) That gentleman performed the
greatest good by reducing the extravagant expenditure
of successive Governments. But did his economy apply
to grants for improving science, art, or education
There was not a man whose support could be more
surely reckoned upon in Parliament when the object in
view was the raising of the intellectual and social condi-
tion of the people. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
attach which had been made upon the principles of Lord
Palmerston, he did not think it necessary to repeat what
he had said the other day when he stated his reasons for
thinking that his lorchhip was entitled to the confidence
of the country. The country would not take its opinion
from the statement,' which had been made by the noble
earl or the Earl of Derby, or from any defence which be
(Earl Granville) might be able to make. The public
would decline acting upon the opinions of either the op-
ponents or supporters of Lord Palmerston, and would
judge for themselves, and therefore he would not trouble
their lordahipe with another remark on that subject.
The Earl of MALMESBURY was willing to admit
that Lord Palmerston was the most popular and desirable
Minister at this moment, but was convinced that the
time was net far distant when the practical people of
England, so remarkable for their common sense and
their investigation of truth, would be convinced
that the war in China was one of the most disastrous cha
meter for their interests, and that their present idol was
a minister who had neglected that particular duty of a
minister—economy. The noble earl opposite could not
e-cape from the responsibility of the education vote dm,
ing the years which preceded the day when Lord Palmer-
ston became Prime Minister, for be held the office which
he now occupied in the Government which succeeded
Lord Derby. He was not about to enter into any discus-
sion on the subject of education, but he must say that
the Government had made no sign on the subject, which
had been left to Lerd J. Russell, Sir J. Pakington, and
Mr. Henley, and not a single measure had been l ropo,ed
by the noble earl opposite. It was desirable to inquire
how the present system was to end, and whether the
noble lord bad any idea of the last sum which might be
asked for, and of the aggregate of what the charge would
be a few years hence. Was it not remarkable, when they
looked at the miscellaneous estimates, which were only
two millions under the Government of Lord Grey to find
that they were now six millions? His noble friend (Lord
Granville) the other night laid the Income Tax Bill on
the table in solemn silence, and in the whole of his
speech in answer to that of his noble friend (Lord Derby)
he did not spend five minutes on the estimates or the ex-
peediture of the country, and that evening be had on the
whole waived the subject, as one which coull not been-
tertained by their lordships' house. He (Lord Malines-
bury) must call attention to another item which had not
been noticed by his noble friend (Lord E!tenborough),
and that was the charge for the collection of the revenue,
a cliaree which amounted for the collection of a revenue
of 65,000,0001. to 4,300,0001., or 61 percent. for collec-
tion. Their lordships knew what was the expense of col-
h cling these revenues, and they knew that the collection
of rents of all kinds was made at a charge of 24 per cent.
and he could not see why the public revenue should be
c dlected at an expense of 64 per cent. when the revenues
of private individuals could be collected at a charge of
2i per cent. His noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) had
adverted to the qualifications of Lord Palmerston for
the office of first Minister of this country. The country
wool I soon decide whether that noble lord wag to be mi-
nister or not, but ho wished to make an observation on
a taunt which the noble earl (Granville) had thro Am out
against his not le friend (Lord Derby) for having offered
Lord Palmerton a place in his Government. But it
was a very different thing to endeavour to obtain the
assistance of a man of ability and experience in a mi-
nistry, in which he would be your colleague, and when
you yourself were to be Prime Minister. and to support
the same roan when he himself was Prime Minister.
The same qualities which would make a man admirably
fit'ed r the greatest subordinate offices in a Govern-
ment did not render him fitted to be Prime Minister ;
and he would ask his noble friend (Lord Granville) whe-
t ier, although be might be satisfied with each and all of
lee colleagues in the places they now held, he would be
also ready to have any one of them placed above him as
Prime Minister. He was sure that his noble friend
would not, and he was hardly justified in throwing that
circumstance in the face of Lord Derby when he was
answering that noble lord's criticism on Lord Palmer-
ston's career. Parliament might now be said to be on
its deathbed ; but when their lordships returned he hoped
tbat his noble friend opposite would consider deeply the
subject on which the noble earl (Ellenborough) bad
touched. Depend upon it, notwithstanding the popular
favour in which Lord Palmerston teamed to be held,
there were in all parts of the country signs and symp-
toms of alarm at the increase of the national expendi-
ture ; and let it not be forgotten that, although a few
years ago we might have been generous with the public