The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-29 00:00:00

movement. The natives had no king in former times, be-
cause they were governed by chiefs, and when the power of
the chiefs was destroyed they cast about to see what they
could do to supply their place. , They attempted to set up as
king an imbecile old man named Potator, and this was
nothing but a feeble and ineffectual attempt on the part of
the natives to carry out the principle of sovereignty. With
regard to the particular question of the origin of the present
war, he (Lord Lyttelton) must confess, having read all the
papers on their lordships' table and many others which had
reached him from New Zealand, that he quite agreed in the
conclusion of the noble earl that the question of the tribal
right was one which was open to very considerable doubt.is
Ile must also say that since the bishop had expressed h
opinion in favour of the tribal right, and particularly of the
exercise of that right on the part of Wirimu Kingi, that a
perusal of those papers had very much shaken his (Lord
Lyttelton's) opinion on this point, and he should recommend
no one to form a definite opinion on the matter without hav-
ing read the last despatches on the subject, especially that
one from the governor dated in December, 1860, which occu-
pied a space of some 30 pages in the volume before them.
lle thought that the governor had produced weighty eTi-
deuce to the effect that there was reason to doubt whether
any ancient signorial rights had existed at all among the
native princes independent of treaty. He also thought that
the governor had made out a very strong case in favour of
the justice and wisdom of the course he had pursued.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that his noble friend
the noble earl, in introducing this interesting discussion
upon a very important question upon the somewhat slender
basis of a bill which he (the Duke of Newcastle) had asked
their lordships to read a second time, expressed the regret
which he (the noble earl) felt that this was the only bill
which her Majesty's Government were prepared to lay on
the table with respect to the colony of New Zealand.
Until the close of the noble earl's speech he (the Duke of
Newcastle) had felt surprise at this expression of regret,
not only because he knew the noble earl disapproved of the
measure which he (the Duke of Newcastle) had introduced
last year, but also because he could not gather what reme-
dial measure the noble earl wished should be introduced into
a bill. He (the Duke of Newcastle) would not say anything
with regard to the recommendations ho had received from
time to time as to the measures he might have introduced ;
but his noble friend had certainly misunderstood or had mis-
quoted what he had said with regard to that bill. He cer-
tainly did not advocate that bill on the ground that he dis-
approved of the Constitution or Government of New Zea-
land, or rd aw ooai.o that had been taken with respect to
the management of native affairs. He understood his noble
friend to say that that was the sole ground upon which that
bill was supported. What he (the Duke of Newcastle) saiel
was this—that the Constitutional Act of 1852 having im-
posed upon the governor certain duties with regard to the
management of native affairs, and it being found not only dif-
ficult but almost impossible to carry those functions into
effect, in order to enable him to do so, he recommended the
establishment of a native council. His noble friend said he
rejoiced that that bill failed, because he thought there was
more chance of a council succeeding in the colony. But so
far from the colony supposing that a council was objection-
able, they had themselves introduced a bill into either
house of Legislature—which had been discussed in a very
liberal and impartial spirit—by which they themselves had
proposed the constitution of a native council ; and though
they differed as to the provisions, yet in more important
respects they had sanctioned the principle of a council.
The noble earl did not dwell at any great length upon
the origin of this war ; and he (the Duke of New•
castle) thought he was right in doing so, considering the
period at which they were discussing the question, viz., one
year only since the war had broken out. But inasmuch as
the noble earl had expressed an opinion of his own, founded
on an opinion of persons in the colony, to the effect that the
Governor was wrong, and that Wirimu Kingi was right,
he (the noble Duke) felt bound to say he did not concur in
that view. He believed the governor to have been in the
right, and in this respect he must say his mind had taken
the same course as that of his noble friend (Lord Lyttelton).
In a despatch which he (the Duke of Newcastle) had writ-
ten shortly after his arrival from America, he had expressed
his great doubts as to the justice of the cource which had
been taken ; but he said he would not then express his opi-
nion on the matter. But after reading the despatches which
had arrived since, and especially the despatch which had
been referred to by the noble lord, ho felt convinced that
the governor was right, and that the balance of opinions in-
clined in his favour. He did not wish to dispute the high
authority of Sir W. Martin; but he believed, though he
did not so say positively—certainly not officially—against
that opinion might be set the opinion of Chief Justice
Arnold. This, moreover, had not been a suddenly arranged
transaction. It had been said the Government had shown
haste ; but nine months were spent in the adjudication con-
sequent on the purchase of this small piece orland. It had
also been said that threats had been put forth by hostile
claimants. The fact really was, that the governor and the
settlers would have teen only too glad if such a tribunal
existed; but there was no such tribunal, and the real op-
position to its institution arose from the natives. No go-
vernor had been able to establish a tribunal, which would
only have been injurious to the Maori. • Did the treaty of
Waitangi contemplate such a tribunal? , Certainly not.
It pv..vt0....1 for barffains being rn,iin 1,n+,,,..„ 11-- --.:___
:tuu agents of the Government, and the fact was that the
Government agents were more favourable to the natives
than any tribunal. A tribunal would proceed only upon
strict legal principles ; whereas the common practice on the
part of the agents was to yield points here and there in
favour of the natives, and against the Government —a prac-
tice which he believed had materially served the interests of
the Government. The question of a tribunal had been
urged by the bishop in what he called a "solemn protest."
He (the Duke of Newcastle) deeply regretted the course
which tire bishop had taken and the language which he
had used. That language had been commented upon by a
noble friend of his in terms which, if they had fallen from
him (the Duke of Newcastle) as Colonial Secretary, would
he feared have had very little effect. He hoped that excel-
lent man, the bishop, and the missionaries in New Zealand,
would take from his noble friend in good part the valuable
lesson he had read them, and would abstain from that in-
terference which upon this occasion had been most unfor-
tunate and mischievous. This protest, which was in most
powerful terms, was yet political in its character, and if it
had emanated from any prelate in Europe would have been
met by a universal outcry against the interference of a
bishop in matters of such a nature. He had read it wish
great pain; because there was no man holding the position
of a minister of religionowhom he looked upon with such
respect, not only as a friend but as a minister of the Gospel ;
• but the bishop had allowed himself, in this instance, to be
diverted from his high calling to the partial advocacy of
I political rights, in a manner which had led to most disas-
trous consequences. The noble earl had done wisely, he
thought, in not entering deeply into the subject of the war.
It would have been just as wise during the mutiny which
lately raged in India to have discussed largely in the press
and in the legislature the question of the greased cartridges
which was the pretended reason, but was probably only the
pretext, of the outbreak. There was no doubt that it was
a struggle of nationalities. The feeling on the part of the
natives was that they were entitled to a nationality of the it
own, and they wished to prevent the superiority of Eng-
land. From this cause arose the land league of which
Wirimu Kingi was the chief. It followed also that
the chief, named Potator, to whom the noble lord had
referred, when he found himself engaged in a struggle with
the British Government, placed all his force at the disposal
of Wirimu Kingi. The Maori king movement commenced
some seven years ago. It would have made very little pro-
gress, and the policy of the Government, which was t e let
it alone, would have prevailed, if they had had to deal with
the natives only. But he was sorry to say, the natives were
not only assisted in their hostility, but were instigated by
disaffected Europeans. Correspondence was opened, mis-
sionaries were sent out; deputations were organised to
native chiefs ; in one part of the country a subscription was
raised for setting up a printing press, with a view of dis-
seminating, everything which could excite them against the
was gin a_veneeuratptth rnatad the
envelnlisa4 Government;tt a flag was prepared, and there was
hadat
einGoonveerninsotranocf instance customs.Ntoellvevzyealand lt
secret plan on foot to
fiscate their lands for the use of the British settlers. Thus
series were sent amongsgtoothd reason, that European emis-
. Point to the conduct of a frienednatives. But here he might
of wise advice offered to th sly tribe, who, in consequence
, spirit from the first, and hadm:hhad retained a peaceful
continue to do so. There could be noowa n every disposition to
of the Maories the dispute between the
eubt that in the minds
they should have a Maori king, or whether this, whether
Great Britain should be the sovereign oe ehtehel4ueen of
) the Maories were determined, if they could, trdorliy, and
iEuropeans into the sea, and make a native chief tleveekt'hae,
of the country. He thought the last despatches showeduleco
signs of peace on the part of the Maories, excepting such
as would result if her Majesty resigned the sovereignty of
the colony. The war in New Zealand was a most deplor-
able one, because he felt that if there were any class of abo-
riines more than another which the English people had a
g
. for, it was the Maories. They had un-
doubtedly as brave qualities as Englishmen, and they
had shown in this foolish and disastrous war
many individual acts of courage which did them
His noble friend had
st
ated the highest honour. (Hear, hear.)
stated that the cause of the war was of a longer date than
the purchase of land question, and he (the Duke of New-
castle) agreed with him. His noble friend did not blame
the representative institutions of New Zealand in reference
to that question, but considered the blame rested with the
system of party government at home. Now, he thought his
noble friend would find it very difficult to discover more
than two passages in the blue hook in support of his charge
against respeneible government.
Earl GREY thought he could point out 20 places which
would prove the propositions which he had laid down.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—Well, co far as he could
discover, representative government was not so much in fault
as party government at home, and he had not found in the
despatches those passages to which his noble friend referred.
He was about to say that, although he did not think re-
sponsible government had created the dissatisfaction which
existed in the minds of the Maories, yet there could be no
doubt that the change which took placo in 1852 in the go-
vernment of the colony had had this effect, viz., that it had
deprived the governor of the powers which he formerly

possessed, and also of the funds which he formerly had at
his disposal. With regard to the conduct of the Govern-
ment of New Zealand and the assembly, he must express
dissent from the opinion entertained by his noble friend.
He could not read the blue-book the same as he had done,
and ho thought the debates in the assembly had been con-
ducted with remarkable ability and with a fair disposition
to consult the rights and feelings of the Maories. It was
not fair to quote the press as conclusive upon the subject,
because some papers said the Maories had been properly
treated, while others said they had been treated harshly.
(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his noble friend in think-
ing it was a great misfortune that the superintendents of
the provinces had been made elective and quite indepen-
dent of the supreme Government, and, indeed, sometimes
they were antagonistic to it. It was an institution simi-
lar
:to those in the United States, without the reasons
for it which existed there, and he thought that if the
superintendents were nominated by the Governor-in-Chief
instead of being elected by the provinces, it would be a great
improvement. Ho had referred to the fact that by the
changes of 1852 the Governer lost the command of funds
which had been of the greatest advantage to him in carry-
ing on the Government of the colony, and this was one of
the greatest evils of the working of the new system. At
present the whole of the territorial revenues were at the
disposal of the provincial Governments, and they absorbed
any surplus which tho colonial Government might have in-
stead of leaving it to be appropriated for native purposes.
There was another cause of evil, namely, the extension of
English laws to the colony. No doubt they purported to
extend those laws to the natives, but in fact that had not
been done, and by the present system the natives were nei-
ther separated from nor incorporated with the Europeans.
At the same time, there was no distinct and formal separa-
tion. No Maori was an elector, for by a decision of one of
the courts of law no title to land was recognised except such
as was admitted by English law. Therefore, if a native
wished to have a vote, he must be possessed of a freehold ;
but he had no interest in acquiring a freehold, because he
would be purchasing land of the Government ; whereas he
possessed in his own right a title, and was, as a Maori, in
possession of sufficient land to give him a vote. Neverthe-
less, tlicy were not allow ea to exercise the franchise. he
believed that nothing would be more conducive to the set-
tlement of the colony than the introduction of the system
adopted by Sir G. Grey in British Kaffraria. Ile referred
to the system of giving native chiefs appointments and a
position, and connecting them 'with the English Govern-
ment, while they were allowed to retain4tlaeir own position
amongst themselves. Then again, with regard to the schools,
he thought it veou'd be an additional advantage if the Eng-
lish language were taught in them, and if the missionaries
taught in that language instead of teaching the people in the
Maori tongue. With regard to the expenses of the war, the
colonial Government not only expected the motherecountry to
pay the troops sent out, but an attempt had been made to
impose upon us a portion of the expenses belonging to the
militia and the volunteers ; but that he (the Duke of New-
' castle) had not allowed, and he had instructed the governor
how to act in future in regard to such a claim. He might
mention that an agent of the New Zealand Government
was in this country, and was endeavouring to effect a loan
of £150,000 for the express purpose of paying the expenses
consequent upon the war. He could not say whether the
disposition of the natives was more for war or for peace.
There were many reasons to suppose that they were anxious
for peace, while on the other hand there were appearances
which indicated that there would be a serious extension of
the war. If the war should extend it would, he feared, be
a most disastrous one. Ho would now mention to their
lordships that as the present governor's term of six years'
service would expire in a short period, it had become his
duty to recommend to the Queen the appointment of a
successor to Cot. Browne, and she had graciously approved
of it. Sometimes his noble friend and himself differed in
reference to colonial matters, but in this he thought they
would agree, for he had recommended to the Crown the
appointment of Sir George Grey ; but ho felt that in asking
Sir George to return to the government of New Zealand it
was a tax upon his patriotism, as it was supposed that the
governorship of the Cape was superior to that of New Zea-
land. He had no doubt, however, that when Sir George
Grey received the intimation which he sent out to him by
the last mail, that he would probably by the following mail
receive his instructions, ho would readily consent to return
to New Zealand. The intimation to Colonel Browne was
sent out by the mail which left yesterday. It would be
most unjust on his part to close this statement if he did
not, on the part of the Government, say that they fully
recognised the great services rendered to the colony by
Colonel Browne, and that the re-appointment of Sir
George Grey to the colony was done without intending the
smallest reflection upon the conduct of Colonel Browne.
He could not agree with the statement of his noble friend,
which seemed to disparage the government of Col. Browne,
for his noble friend, and every one reading the despatches,
must feel that Colonel Browne was a man of great ability,
and that he had, by a great consideration forall the interests
in New Zealand, whether they were those of Englishmen or
natives, distinguished himself during the six years he had
been in office. Colonel Browne, with a small naval and mi-
litary force, had shown temper and discretion in all the trans -
actions of this war which did him the highest honour. (Hear.)
4-I,n+ --a
course, and he felt certain that when this war was over, the
people of New Zealand would acknowledge that they owed
a debt of gratitude to him whose government was now about
to expire. (Hear.) He had recommended to the Queen,
and her Majesty had been pleased to assent to the recom-
mendation, that Colonel Gore Browne should be sent to
another government; and he trusted the appointment of
Sir G. Grey to the government of New Zealand would lead
to the settlement of these unhappy disturbances.

Earl GREY, in reply, said he had heard with great satis-
faction the statement of the noble duke, and he agreed with
him that Colonel Gore Browne had been placed in a false
position. But he hoped that when Sir G. Grey arrived at
Now Zealand he would find before him an act of Parlia-
ment suspending the constitution of that colony as the only
means of settling the minds of the people there and prevent-
ing this war from extending.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he could not comply
with the request of the noble earl. As he had not alluded to
that subject in his previous remarks his silence now, after
the second appeal of the noble earl, could receive but one
interpretation. He had no hesitation in saying therefore
that he had no intention whatever of suppressing the consti •
tution of New Zealand, which would be, ho believed, a
most impolitic, unwise, and with all due deference to the
noble earl, a most unjust act, and would be punishing the
innocent for the guilty. (Hear.) He was not now pre-
pared, nor did he see any likelihood of being ever prepared,
to sanction such a course. (Hear.)
The bill was then read a second time.
The Offences in Territories near Sierra cone Bill was
read a third time and passed.

The Combination of Parishes Dissolution (Scotland)
Bill was read a second time.

Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Workington Tidal Basin and RailW.Ly Bill was read
a third time and passed.
The Lym and Hunstanton Railway Bill was considered
and ordered for third reading.
DUBLIN CORPORATION WATER BILL.

On the motion for the consideration of this bill:—
Sir E. GROGAN moved that the bill be re-committed,
for the purpose of hearing tho petition of ratepayers and
others of Dublin, deposited in the Private Bill-office, and
complaining of matter which had arisen during the pro-
gress of the bill before the committee on the bill. He said
that there were objections to the bill which were considered
reasonable by those persons who were acquainted with the
subject, but there had not been sufficient time afforded to
enable him or those who agreed with him on thepropriety of
this motion to urge these objections at the previous stages
of the bill. By the provisions of the bill power was given
to the Corporation of Dublin to raise any amount of money
for the purpose of supplying the city of Dublin with water.
There were also other most objectionable clauses in the
bill, including exemption to Trinity Colley, and cer-
tain companies. He did not want to destroy the bill,
to which the committee to whom it had been referred had
devoted much time and attention. His only object was to
render the clauses less onerous and oppressive on the rate-
payers.

Mr. MAGUIRE, whose name was on the bill, said that
the object of the hon. member was to destroy it, notwith-
standing that he disclaimed any such intention. The bill
would be of great benefit to the inhabitants of Dublin, and
so far from large houses in that city being well supplied
with water the reverse was the fact, as he was informed by
the most creditable authorities. There was scarcely
a week elapsed that there was not a fire in the
Prawha7.loecifelretorineaelleyt
cityro of Dublin, and yet there was not sufficient water supply
were milling to
tsbuechreaperceia.deleint .ivelsloefeothnetenpdeoedplet.hatTthhaist
matter might be fairly left in the hands of the corporation,
bodycould
00
uo poor,
tag e thhuemmtaseloveeslasfosersththeabneneafifftoto.dfitnhge
0 water, which,
abned
geix.vP:nrietnoce had shown that no greater boon
them an adequate supply
other advantages, tended to arrest the
He contended also that every opportunity was given to the
progress
of amongst
disease.
opponents of the bill to dispute it in committee.
Mr. MASSEY said that the ratepayers wereie
by counsel before the committee, and if they ehosPorteoB=d
prematurely, that was no reason why the committee should
°
be called on to sit on the bill. If any hon. member of the
committee said that ho thought it desirable to
have the bill reconsidered, that certainly might
be a reason for adopting the course advocated by the hon.
baronet (Sir E. Grogan), but in the absence of any such
expression, he felt bound to oppose the amendment for the
recommittal of this bill.

Mr. VANCE said that some of the clauses in this bill
took his hon. colleague and himself by surprise, and were not
in the original bill. He strongly objected to the exemption
of Trinity College from being taxed, and also the Admi-
ralty clause in the bill, which made it imperative to main-
tain a certain depth of water in Wicklow harbour.
Mr. TALBOT said that the committee sat for three
weeks, and were unanimous in their decision. He thought
therefore that there was no ground for calling on them to
sit again, and he called on the house t‘? maintain, its '