The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-19 00:00:00

compare acts with words; and one unfortunate step had been
taken in the despatch issued on the Ist September—almost
the last act of the East India Company. It was doubtless
essential to check fraud in the collection of the revenue ; but
the commission appointed to inquire into enarns would create
great dissatisfitction. This had been the case in the province
of Bombay, where a commission had been appointed to call
on the landlords to prove a title of 90 years. The nicest ques-
tions arose, which were entrusted not to lawyers, but to mili-
tary men, whose decisionshad givenunmixed dissatisfaction.
It was in evidence before the committee of last year that the
enarn commission had decided on 8,000 titles, and that
100,000 were still pending before them. He was surprised to
learn that a similar commissionhad been issued for Madras.
The object, no doubt, was to increase the revenue, but it
would not have that affect. In Bengal a similar commission
had been found so oppressive that it hadbeenput an end to.
An HoN. MEMBER—NO, no; its operations were finished.
Sir E. PERRY hoped that the Madras commission
would not only be suspended but put an end to at once, and
that Sir C. Trevelyan would retract the advice he had
given the other day in favour of the commission. He would
not encourage fraud, but deal with it as in this country. If
a man's great grandfather had committed a fraud was he to
be put out of possession of his land ? (Hear.) Let them
fix a period, 30 or 40 years, beyond whichthe inquiry should
not extend, and then let fraud be treated in the ordinary
course. If the steps he suggested were taken he had no
fear for the future of India. Recollecting that our trade
with India exceeded that with any other country, except
the United States and Australia, we might form an idea of
its value. The amount of that trade was 30 millions a year.
Besides that, India paid three or four millions to this coun-
try as dividends and salaries. Let us treat the natives of
India so as to give them an interest in its institutions, and
they would not be found unwilling to aid with their purses
the expenses of the State. Reference had been made to the
Government irrigation works effected in Bombay, but in
reality they had been done by the municipality of Bombay,
where the natives were most liberally treated. The same re-

sults would follow all over India if the same course were
adopted. From the high rank and great popularity of the
noble lord he was in a position to carry out greater reforms
than any one on that side the house could do—(hear, hear)
—because they would be opposed to a great body of the
Conservatives. (Hear.) At the same time he hoped the
noble lord would not entangle himself too much with " Old
Indians," for it was impossible not to see that the new board
was the old East India Company over again. Many of the
projected reforms would militate most strongly with their
views ; but if the noble lord would depend on his own sound
judgment, India, instead of becoming a burden to this coun-
try, would be a powerful auxiliary to its prosperity. (Hear.)
Mr. LI DDELL'said the noble lord had been charged
with omitting to propose any means of improving the In-
dian revenue. This was not correct. On Monday night
the noble lord had suggested those means; and any mea-
sure relating to taxes must emanate from the Indian go-
vernment in the first instance. The noble lord had truly
said that the revenue of India was elastic ; but he had not,
as some supposed, named any amount to which it might be
expected to rise. With the prospect of a good and benefi-
cent government in that country he believed that the peo -
ple would have the fullest confidence in the improvement of
India. The noble lord looked forward to the restoration of
the balance between expenditure and income, and, as one
means, referred to the reduction of military expenditure.
It must be recollected that India was a conquered country,
and had been held for a century by the force of our arms ;
and so long as we had to deal with Mahommedan fanati-
cism on the one hand and Hindoo ignorance on the other,
without any prospect of mitigation, he feared there was
little hope of reducing our military expenditure. Besides,
our Indian commerce was yearly becoming more an object
of attention to European governments on all sides ; and if
our army were largely reduced, might not this excite their
ambition ? Though a more complete system of police
throughout Bengal might lessenthe chances of insurrection,
it would still be our duty to guard our stations that protection
might be afforded on any emergency to our stores and bar-
racks. Mr. Macpherson, in his annals, pointed to many that
were still unimproved—several barracks were overcrowded,
and extremely unhealthy. This would prevent any exten-
sive reduction of the military forces in India. At all events
if they were reduced, we must secure greater power of con-
centrating a large force in any given place. Colonel Ken-
nedy had well said that two-thirds of an army might thus
be rendered more effective in a few days than the whole num-
ber would be in as many months. In reference to the rail-
way system, he must, with all submission to the noble lord,
challenge his statement, that the progress of the railway
system, rested mainly on the Indian government. Having
guaranteed no less than two millions of this expenditure, it
was requisite that the Home Government should in some
way superintend the work. This led to the jealousy of the
companies—military engineers being generally employed
by the Government. Confidence had been felt that every
unnecessary obstruction would be removed, but he feared
that the railway officials and the Government engineers
were still keeping up their internal struggles.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he might have trespassed on
the house at greater length than he should do if they had
had any results before them. But there was the same ab-
sence of result as on a former occasion. It was perfectly
true that the novelty of the noble lord's position, as the
first responsible minister for India, as well as the high posi-
tion which he had attained at so early an age, from what
he had already done, and the promise which he held out for
the future, had combined to impart to this debate greater
interest than any former debate on India had possessed.
But what had the noble lord done ? He had entered into a
general explanation of the state of the finances of India, but
he had held out nothing on which they could positively
give an opinion. The speeches had been merely deliberate
essays on Indian affairs, which could lead to nothing.
(Hear, hear.) The accounts annually submitted to Parlia-
ment required some examination, and he would recommend
to the noble lord that on a future occasion those accounts
should be laid before a committee of the house. With re-
gard to the elasticity of the revenue, he differed both from
the noble lord and from his right hon. friend the member
for Halifax (Sir C. Wood), who both seemed to think that
there was no prospect of an increase. He thought the land
revenue displayed some elasticity, as it had largely increased
during the half century, and would be further improved by
the reduction of the assessment. There was another ques-
cons tv whin], dizect the attention. of the noble
lord—the diminution of outlay. The noble lord had given
two examples to show the impossibility of reducing the ex-
pense of the civil service, but both were, rather inapplicable.
The noble lord had spoken of the difficulty of procuring assis-
tant-surgeons and said that even the competitive examination
did not bring forward candidates, but the pay of the assistant-
surgeons was not as high as the civil service, and the com-
petitive...examination rather kept men from offering them-
selves, as, if rejected, they were prevented from obtaining
other situations. Again, the noble lord said that the rail-
ways paid as high salaries as the Company.
Lord STANLEY—Relatively as high.
Mr. V. SMITH—But the railway employment was not
permanent, and there was no promotion. He believed that
in no part of the world was there a service so highly paid
as the civil service, where a man entered at £3OO or £4OO,
with a prospect of rising to £4,000 or £lO,OOO. He admitted
the service was highly competent, but other services equally
so were not so highly paid. With regard to the military
expenditure, he had been surprised to hear from the noble
lord that he expected shortly to be able to reduce the Euro-
pean force to the number before the mutiny.
Lord STANLEY stated that he had not said so. He
did not think it would be possible to reduce the European
force. (Hear, hear.) He only stated that he hoped to re-
duce the total of the military force of every description to
about the same as it was before the mutiny.
Mr. V. SMlTH—However desirous they might be to
reduce the force, it was absolutely necessary to keep Euro-
peans wherever there was a large detachment of natives.
It would be long before the confidence in the natives could
be restored. But although they retained a large Euro-
pean force he did not see why the expenditure might not be
reduced. If they were to keep 80,000 men in India, they
would not long be able to pay them double what was paid
to the troops serving in the West Indies and other colonies.
He had been surprised and sorry to hear that the number of
native troops was now as great as it had been before the
mutiny. He would not question the necessity of these
levies ; but he hoped they would soon be reduced. He
thought the noble lord in proposing the establishment of
freehold tenures was perfectly right. (Hear.) He also agreed
with him as to the railway guarantee. He believed that the
system was erroneous in thp first instance, and he had wished
that some scheme had been started without a guarantee, but
as the system had once been established, he thought the noble
lord had done right in following it up, and if railway com-
panies got guarantees there was no reason why the Madras
Irrigation Company should not get it also. He thought,
however, the present rate of 5 per cent, was rather high.
With regard to railways, he would suggest to the noble lord
whether a system of cheap railways could not be established.
He thought that, in a country where the present rate of
travelling was so slow, a cheap line, capable of working 10
miles an hour, would in many districts answer every re-
quirement. The noble lord had alluded to the question of
an imperial guarantee. (Hear.) If raised at all, that
question should be settled at once. If there was to be such
a guarantee, let them have the benefit of it now ; the noble
lord ought to have stated his opinion on this point. The
noble lord had also neglected to furnish the grounds on
which he came to the conclusion that no further loan would
be required to be raised here. He however saw no objec-
tion to the mode in which it was proposed to raise the pre-
sent loan, and he should therefore vote for the proposal.
Mr. VANSITTART, who spoke from his own know-
ledge, having been a civil officer and magistrate in India,
stated that a very large proportion of the land in many of
the districts was alienated from the Government by fraudu-
lent titles, by which the revenue was considerably impaired,
and recommended a commission to inquire into all titles since
1801, and a proclamation confirming the validity of all titles
previous to that date. He suggested that a cheaper rate of
agency should be introduced, by the more extensive employ-
ment of natives in civil capacities, and expressed an opinion
that under a wise and conciliatory system of government,
the revenues of India would more than pay off the debt in
20 years, and that as tranquillity was re-established, and
European capital was introduced, the Asiatic population
would see that their best interests would be served by se-
conding the of a powerful and beneficent government.
Mr. CRAWFORD, in reference to the remark ofthe right
hon. member for Northamptonshire about cheap railways in
India, observed that in such lines as that from Calcutta to-
wards the north cheapness was impossible, owing to the
nature of the works, there being many very wide rivers to
cross and very heavy engineering operations. Again, with
regard to witholding the Government guarantee, he was
aware that a negotiation had been opened for constructing a
railway without the guarantee, but it was not accepted by
the market. Until it was proved that the traffic would be re-
munerative it was not to be expected that the funds for
railways in India would be forthcoming in this country. The
East India Railway Company, to which he had alluded, had
now 280 miles at work, and from the traffic over 243 of those
miles it was earning £l,OOO a week, or at the rate of 7s 2d.
per train per mile, which was about the earnings of the
great railways in this country. He mentioned this to show
that the railways in India were already beginning to prove
that they would in the end be highly remunerative., It was
understood that last year the security fund was drawn upon
for the payment of the dividends on the East India stock.
He should be glad to know from the noble lord the extent to
which that fund had been so made available, and whether
the provisions of the act had been followed, of devoting the
first subsequent receipts from India to the extinction of the
debt due to the security fund. He thought it desirable that
some change should be made in the principle on which the
exchanges were now regulated, and that instead of an arbi-
trary and varying rate there should be a fixed basis. The
present proposition for raising funds must be looked upon as
a necessity. All he wished was that it might not have to be
repeated, and that the noble lord would direct his attention
to the attainment of the funds necessary for the government
of India from Indian resources.
Mr. CARDWELL thought it was premature to call upon
the Government for an exposition of their mode of adapting
the expenditure of India to its income. They had just
quelled an extraordinary rebellion, and had not arrived at
the time when they could commence those retrenchments by
which alone the expenditure could be brought within the in-
come; and they were departing from those usual maxims
of prudence which ordinarily regulated their conduct,if they
did not at present make a very rigid examination of the dif-
ference between the income and the expenditure. If the
time had come for such an examination, the prospect, it
must be admitted, would net be Very good—for they were