The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 10, 1857.

was not aware. We ought however, to begin this system
in a time of peace. When we found nations like Russia,
France, and Holland, each with a regular system of
manning her navy, it was a disgrace and a danger tothis
country to be without such a system. If this course were
not altered, we must some day or other "come to grief."
Years ago the Channel was some protection to us, but
now that it was completely bridged over by steam, the
state of insecurity the country was in was alarming and
unworthy of its greatness. There were other observations
which he (Sir C. Napier) had intended to make with re-
ference to some remarks which had been made upon him
elsewhere by an hon. member of the house, but consider-
ing the near approach of the dissolution of Parliament,
he should omit for the present all reference to the subject
and permit the hon. member to take his vagaries down
with him to his constituents. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY said that, under the circumstances,
he had no objection to the vote. But he could not help
remarking upon the large sums of money that were
spent in our dockyards. Of this he bad an amusing in-
stance in his own experience. Going into one of the
royal dockyards where he was not known, he found
snfne workmen pulling down a large pile of buildings.
He asked why they were being pulled down ; and one
of the workmen told him he knew no reason for the
change, except that the last " lord" liked the Elizabe-
than, and the new "lord" the Corinthian style of archi-
tecture. They had heard before of iron lords of the Ad-
miralty, and of wooden lords—(a laugh)—and that the
wooden lords had sold the iron ships at a great loss to
the country. He hoped in another Parliament to find the
whole question referred to a select committee. He had
nothing to say against the present Lords of the Admi-
ralty. Indeed, he believed the present First Lord to
have discharged the duties of his office with great effi-
ciency and ability. The hon. and gallant member (Sir
C. Napier) had spoken of the manning of the navy as
being very deficient ; but he (Mr. Lindsay) could not
help thinking that any other system of manning the
navy than a voluntary one must necessarily be unsuccess-
ful, considering the feeling of the country on the subject.
Sir G. TYLER said he regretted to see that it was in-
tended to diminish the coast guard service. The militia
of England was a nucleus for filling up the army ; why
not have a naval militia to answer the same purpose with
respect to the navy I Instead of making reductions in
this branch of the service, it would be better to adopt
some other course which would have the effect of de-
creasing expenditure. The system of making over the
coast-guard volunteers to the Admiralty, he thought a
great improvement. With regard to the employment of
boys, be felt disposed to increase their number to any ex-
tent. He approved of the items in other respects, but he
certainly regretted the reduction of 6,0001. in that part
of the service, which was one of the greatest importance
to the country—he spoke of the coast-guard service.
Sir C. WOOD said, instead of diminishing the effi-
ciency of the coast-guard service, the system adopted by
the Government w ould materially increase it ; the ob•
ject being always to have a quantity of men in reserve
for the navy, so that the Government might man the fleet
at the shortest notice, and make it thoroughly efficient.
Ia answer to the hon. member fer Tynemouth (Mr.
Lindsay) he had to state that the Government was cre-
ating a steam navy, and in a short time this country
would be in a position, with regard to her steam navy,
which would be equal in strength to the steam navy of
other nations ; but to keep a steam navy in a state of
efficiency they must have more dock room for the vessels.
He would add that with a view of making the coast-
guard service perfectly useful orders had been issued
for drilling the men, and this would be commenced next
month by Captain Fraser, who had expressed the
greatest confidence in being able to bring them into the
highest state of efficiency.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY inquired what was the mode
of audit in this department. He hoped the right hon.
baronet would give some explanation on the subject, so
that the house might have an assurance that the ac-
counts were duly verified.
Sir C. WOOD said it was impossible for him to
give an answer to the hon. baronet's question off-hand,
but promised to inquire.
Mr. COWELL agreed as to the necessity of a much
more stringent audit of the estimates than that which
had been heretofore presented to the house. He confessed
that he always felt alarmed when called upon to vote a
million per minute of the public money without knowing
whether too estimates had ever been subjected to the
slightest revisa:n•
Sir G. PECH.inL called attention to the non-effi-
ciency of the blockaO .1g squadron off the coast of Cuba,
i
and read some newspaper extracts to show that the fleet
was employed on every deseiption of service except that
of suppressing the slave trade.
Mr. BOWYER agreed with tile hon. member for
Eversham when he advocated an improved system of
audit. The powers of the present audit body were not
sufficient, and be thought that additional powers should
be granted which would make the audit real and not no-
minal. He begged to refer to the Royal Frederick,
a ship which had been brought under his notice by the
Commercial Association of Liverpool. That vessel had
been unemployed for 20 years, and yet he was informed
she was about to be lengthened into a 120-gun steam-
ship. He wished to know what was the first cost of this
ship, and also whether it was true that, when the keel
was laid down, some petty officers were appointed who
had been receiving pay ever since
Admiral WALCOTT would not propose any obstacle
to the recommendation of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty. He thought, in order to preserve the efficiency of
the navy, that a large number of ships should be con-
stantly/kept in commission—that opportunities of pro-
motion should be given to meritorious officers, and that
good faith should al Nays be kept with, and good treat-
ment always given to, the seamen. He thought also
that there ought to be a general uniforui for the men
throughout the service, and he highly approved. of train-
ing-ships for cadets.
Admiral BERKELEY said that there was already a
general uniform throughout the service for the men, and
that naval cadets would be trained in such ships as the
Industrious before joining their ships. With respect to
manning the navy, had the house gone into the navy
estimates, and any attempt had been made to reduce
the number of men, he was prepared to state to the com-
m ittee that it would be the greatest blow that could pos-
sibly be given to the British navy to reduce the men. It
was, and always would be in consequence of recent
changes in the maritime laws, and now that we had an-
other nation speaking our language, a diffiCult thing to
man the navy properly. With reference to the naval
coast volunteers he was happy to be able to inform the
house that he had no doubt, in the event of another war,
there would be a large body of men available from that
body.
Mr. W. MARTIN thought that the dockyard la-
bourers were not at all too highly paid. _

--Re.'I3ENTIN6IC wished to iiriow whether there was
any intention to make an alteration in the method of
coaling ships in Plyrnonth Sound!
Capt. DUNCOIVIBE thought that there was a great
deal of coal used when it was not required by the exigen-
cies of the service, and when sailing would do just as
well as steaming.
Sir G. PECHELL also thought that the expenditure
for coal was excessive.
Sir C. WOOD said he entirelyagreed in the necessity
of adopting strict rules with regard to the use of coal on
board ships, for it entailed very serious :expense, and
what was still worse, was the means of deteriorating the
skill of officers. The subject had attracted the attention
of the Board of Admiralty, and stringent orders had
been issued to all commanders-in-chief on foreign stations
directing them to enforce upo❑ the officers under their
command not to use coal except in cases of emergency.
The subject of coaling vessels in Plymouth Harbour had
also occupied the attention of the Government, and he
would have been glad to have inserted a vote in the esti-
mates for carrying out fresh measures upon so important
a matter, but the Government were bound to bring
their expenditure within reasonable limits. As to the
wages of men in Chatham Dockyard, when the war
began the shipwrights were put upon job and task
work instead of being paid by the day. That led to
a very considerable increase of expense, and in order
to induce the labourers to keep pace with these
artificers they received what was called " exertion
money." On the lst of March the shipwrights were
again placed upon day pay, and the exertion money, of
the labourers was accordingly struck off. Unless mea-
sures of this kind were taken it would be utterly impos-
sible for the Government to reduce their expenditure as
they were called upon to do by the house. He could not
tell the hon, member for Dundalk (Mr. Bowyer) when
the vessel he alluded to was laid down, but there were
cases in which large sailing vessels were kept on the
stocks for a considerable time while the building of
steamers, which were more wanted, was being proceeded
with. The right hon. baronet concluded by justifying
the measures he had taken with respect to the construc-
tion of gun-boats.
After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, in
reply, _

.1111.. COWAN asked if a Mr. White, of Cowes, bad
been appointed consulting engineer to the Admiralty on
"slips 1" He had a copy of a letter from a person of
that name to a gentleman at Leith, stating that he had
received such an appointment.
Sir C. WOOD knew of no person who had been ap-
pointed consulting engineer of slips, but believed that a
Mr. White, of Cowes, had been employed to construct
some for the use of the navy. With regard to the sup-
pression of the slave trade, the right hon. baronet said
gun-boats were not employed on the coast of Cuba, in
consequence of their not being well adapted for that ser-
vice. If gun-boats were sent tq Cuba it would be neces-
sary to have a coal depot there, as they were unable to
carry a sufficient quantity of coals on board, and the Go-
vernment had, therefore, thought it better to strengthen
the blockade on the coast of Africa.
After a few words from Mr. 'WILLIAMS,
Admiral WALCOTT said the admirals do the retired
list held their present positions as a reward for meritori-
ous conduct in the discharge of their duties. He (the
gallant admiral)
only 10 men on the list of 225 admirals who were
younger than himself.
was. 66 years of age, and there were
The voto was then agreed to.
On the vote of 800,0001, for the wages of seamen and
marines,

The following totes were agreed to :-
300,0001., on account, victuals.
50,000/., on account, Admiralty-office.
80,000/., on account, coast guard service.
30,000/., on account, scientific departments.
60,0001., on account, naval establishments at home.
10,000/, on account, naval establishments abroad.
300,0001., on account, wages to artificers, &c., at
home. _

20,000/, on account, wages to artificers, &c., abroad.
500,0001., on account, naval stores.
200,0001., on account, new works and rephirs.
20,000/., on account, medicines and medical stores.
30,0001., on account, miscellaneous stores.
250,000/. on account, half-pay,
200,0001., on account, military pensions.
00,9001., on account, oivil pentgono.