The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-13 00:00:00

Lord PALMERSTON—I have no right to trespass
agai❑ ups' the indulgence of the house, but I hope I
shall be :Wowed to say a few words after the observations
of the right hon. gentleman, by which he attempts to
cover his ignominious retreat from his first position.
(Ironical cheers from the Opposition, and counter cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman has misstated what he said on
a former occasion. (Cheers and counter cheers.) He
has entirely misrepresented his own expressions—his own
statement. What was the right hon. gentleman's state-
ment ? His statement was that there was a treaty be-
tween Austria and France for guaranteeing the Italian
possessions of Austria—(hear)—that it was now in exist-
ence—that it had been recently quoted by Austria in
consequence of the discussions between France and Eng •
land on the one hand and Naples on the other—and that
it had been executed at the instigation of the English
Government—(loud cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)—that
it had been executed not only with the knowledge, but
at the instigation of her Majesty's Government. (Con-
tinued cheers and counter cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—At the " instance !"
Lord PALMERSTON—No, "instigation." But the
right hon. gentleman cannot rest his statement upon syl-
lables. However, I heard the word, and I recollect it.
I am sure he made use of the word " instigation."
Mr. DISRAELI—" Instance" or "advice."
Lord PALMERSTON—WeII, advice. (Cheers from
the Opposition) Oh ! but I heard the word " instiga-
tion" distinctly. (Renewed cheers and counter cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—You say it is instigation.
Lord PALMERSTON—What the right hon. gentle-
man meant was that the treaty originated in advice and
counsel given by the English Government to the Govern-
ments of France and Austria. I denied the whole of
that statement at the time it was made, and the whole
of that statement I again deny. To the best of my know-
ledge and belief rio such treaty exists or ever was exe-
cuted. I state most distinctly that the British Govern.
ment has no knowledge of such a treaty, and therefore
cannot have instigated it. I said the other night that if
the right hon. gentleman had seen such a treaty, and
could assert its existence on his own knowledge, of
course I would bow to his assertion, and although I
knew nothing of it I would take for granted that it did
exist. I else said that a convention of a totally different
kind had been negotiated—a convention regulating the
mode of action of the French and Italian troops which
might happen to be in Italy at the time, in the event of
Austria declaring war against Russia and fighting in
concert with Eegland and France, as Austria naturally
wished her rear to be secured while she was fighting in
the van in concert with the allies. I said that convention
was founded upon the assumed case of a declaration of
war by Austria against Russia, and such a declaration
never having taken place the convention became a dead
letter, and, whether signed or not, had no effect, and
never could take effect. These assertions I still maintain,
and I say the right hon. gentleman, notwithstanding the
vapouring manner in which he has been pleased to follow
up his statement—(cries of " Oh!" from the Opposition,
and cheers froei the Ministerial benches)—has been im.
posed upon. (Continued cheers.) I beg your pardon
the right hon. gentleman used hard words, and I shall
express my opinion, whatever he may think of my
mode of ex2re.sion. (Cheers.) I say, then, that the
right hon. gentleman has, to the best of my belief,
been grossly imposed upon ; that a military conven-
tion, which never came into operation, because that
which was to have been the basis and foundation of it
never took place, has be en represented to him as being
that which it never was, and was never intended to be,
as a permanent guarantee of the Italian possessions of
Austria by France —I say that it is utterly impossible
that the military convention could have been made use
of in the manner he described, because Austria could not
have said to Naples, " I have a permanent guarantee
from France for my Italian possessions," seeing that the
only thing signed, as far as I am aware, was a con-
vention providing for a case which never had any exist-
ence, and that the military convention I have described
was not signed at our instigation or by our advice, but
was communicated to us as an arrangement already
settled between France and Austria ; and the only queL-
tion with us was whether, on the whole, Franca was
bound in honour to make such arrangements as would
render the position of the Austrian armies in Italy secure.
So far, therefore, from that which I have stated bearing
out the ctatement of the right hon. gentleman, it shows
that my own statement was perfectly true, and that the
right hon. gentleman is entirely misinformed as to the
facts of the case. (Loud cheers and counter cheers.)
LEGAL REFORM.

_
willing.to forward the progress of legal measures, but
he did not regard- them with great anxiety, for ho knew
welt enough that the right hon. gentleman opposite was
not likely to oust him on a question of law reform. Bat
the real fault lay in the present system. Neither the
Lord Chancellor nor the Attorney and Solicitor-General
could act as that Minister of Justice which Mr. Napier
desiderated. The remedy lay, he believed, in the sug-
gestion made by Mr. Napier, and, therefore, he had no
hesitation in seconding his motion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that his right
hon. friend the member for the University of Dublin
had added to his distinguished reputation, by bringing
forward this motion. Unquestionat ly the subject was
one which had not escaped the attention of the Govern-
ment. The terms of the earlier part of the resolution
showed that it had received the consideration of Minis-
ters ; but the rest of the motion might be said to be the
property of the right hon. gentleman, inasmuch as he
had brought it forward in the year 1845. It must be
distinctly understood that in accepting, with a slight
modification, the resolution of the right bon. gentleman,
the Government did not see in the language used by
him, nor would it recognise as a consequence of the
adoption of the res dution, the necessity of any such plan
as that which had been spoken of by him—namely, the
establishment of a separate Minister of Justice. He did
not conceive that at present there was any necessity for
the introduction of any suck officer. Mem., hear.) He
thought that all the objects of the resolution might be
more effectually carried out by means of the existing
machinery than by introducing the change recom-
mended. There were abundant means at disposal for
effecting all that was required without the addition to
the Cabinet of any each Minister. It would be utterly
impossible to introduce into the Cabinet the addition of
a Minister of Justice whilst they had the Lord Chancel-
lor there, and whilst they had the Secretary there, with-
out introducing discordant elements, the possioility of
contention, and an absence of that unanimity which was
essential in order to carry out just and proper views.
Some years ago, when bills were introduced in 1852, for
what had been called the reform of the Courts of Chan-
cery, hon. members would recollect that a new tribunal
was constituted, called the Court of Lords Justices of
Appeal. This court having relieved the Lord Chancel-
lor of a considerable portion of his judicial duties, it
would be in the Lord Chancellor's power to discharge
the duties which would devolve upon him under this pro-
posed measure, without the nomination of a Minister of
Justice. It was certainly within the power of that dis-
tinguished officer, if he were only assisted by an effi-
cient staff, to accomplish, in a most complete manner,
the three great objects which they desired to attain—
viz., the effectual administration of justice in all its
departments ; secondly, the superintendence and effec-
tual carrying out of the process of the amendment of the
law ; and, thirdly, the giving prompt, effectual, and
complete assistance to the conduct of the business of
current legislation. With the omission of some words in
the resolution, which he considered unnecessary—viz ,
" an urgent measure of administrative reform," the rest
of the resolution might be accepted in the language of
the right hon. gentleman, and the Government would
certainly give the subject all that attention which
the right hon. gentleman desired. (Hear, hear.) They
bad in this country one very great peculiarity which he
believed was not possessed by any other—they had the
misfortune to have a great number of courts proceeding,
several of them upon antagonistic prilacivles. They had a
great number of tribunals, none of which were armed
with the power of dealing complete justice on any given
subject—(hear, hear)—and there was the necessity im-
posed upon individuals to resort to a great number of
tribunals to obtain justice. They obtained a little por-
tion of justice at one tribunal and a little at another.
(Hear.) That state 6f- things must et 11 continue for
a considerable length of time. The apathy of the people
with regard to any alteration in the shape of reform was
so great that it would be idle to expect any complete re-
construction at once without the process of patching.
If this system continued therefore, as he apprehended it
would continue, it spoke plainly enough in favour of
having some great department charged with the duties
of carefully watching over and superintending the work-
ing of our numerous tribunals, and endeavouring to in-
troduce harmony and conformity into a system which
hitherto, in theory and practice, was in many respects in-
congruous. They had a portion of the laws in insc lvency
dealt with by an Insolvent Court ; another portion was
committed to a Court of Bankruptcy ; a third portion was
committed to a sort of statutory tribunal, under the Wind-
ing-up Acts ; and a further portion still was assigned to
the Court of Chancery. Theyhad also courts of law, which
were in a great measure opposed altogether to courts of
equity. Again, they had a great number of county
court judges, and they had a defective system of crimi-
nal procedure—prosecutions were instituted and con-
ducted without any control. There was no adequate super-
intendence in point of judicial authority over the sen-
tences and procedure of the county courts. In point of
fact, the whole system stood in such a position that the
only hope of order and unity would be to charge some
great and responsible department with the duty of super-
intending it ; of collecting the details of its working, and
the duty of pie enting them in a great report to Parlia-
inent. With regard to the manner in which p
tions were conducted, what was the present system ?
rosecu-
There was no machinery at all for improving it in any
effectual manner; and, therefore, when an emergency
arose, no means of meeting it were at hand. With re-
-ard to the amendment of the law, the house must un-

Mr. LABOUC HERE observed that his right hon.
friend the Secretary for the Home Department had stated
on a former occasion that the Government had no inten-
tion of introducing any measure on_this subject during
the present session ; but he said that when the question
was brought before the house that would be the proper
time for the Government to declare what course they
intended to pursue. He (Mr. Lebouchere) hoped the
hon. gentleman would not expect the Government now
to go out of the way to express their opinion, but when
the second reading of this bill came on, no doubt his
noble friend (Lord Palmerston) or the Home Secretary
would state the views entertained by the Government.
Leave was then given to bring in the hill.
GENERAL POLLOCK.
Captain L. VERNON moved for a copy of al: cor-
respondence relating to the removal of General Pollock,
G.C.8., from the direction of the Hon. East India Csm-
pany. The hon. and gallant member gave a sketch of the
brilliant services of Gen. Pollock from bie first victories in
India down to the time he received the thanks of Parlia-
ment, and quoted " Kaye's History of the War" in sup-
port of his statements. When it came round to the Go-
vernment to appoint three directors, of course Sir George
Pollock was placed at the head of the list, because no man
bad better led the Indian army ; but while he was only
nominated fur two years, his colleagues, who had never
saved an Indian army, were nominated for four and six
years. Everybody expected that the gallant general
would have received the appointment for the longest
period, but he did not ; and on the 20th March, 1355,
he received a letter from the India Board intimating
that he would not be re-appointed, the only reason given
being a subterfuge, that the act of 1853 required, not a
re-appointment, but a new appointment, whereas two
clauses in the act expressly contemplated re-appointments.
(Tee hon. and gallant member read the correspondence
between Gen. Pollock and the India Board.) He was an
Indian officer, and of course his advancement was cavilled
at by the Horse Guards, and he (Captain Vernon) con-
sidered the general had been very unworthily dealt with.
(Hear.) He expected no redress in making these state-
ments to the house of the treatment experienced by
that distinguished soldier at the hands of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control. He knew what the
answer would be. The right hon. gentleman, if he made
any reply at al!, would thank him for the opportunity of
explaining the transaction. His (Captain Vernon's) only
object was, to complete the general history from the
time he received the thanks of that house until the time
when his great services were so unworthily ignored by
the Government.' The records of that house would
show to posterity the history of his great deeds, and
they would likewise testify to the small esteem in which
those great deeds were held by the Board of Control.
Mr. VERNON S MITH said there was no such offi-
cial correspondence in existence us that for which the
hon. member had moved, as to the removal of General
Pollock, and further than that, Sir G. Pollock never had
been removed from the office of director, nor had such a
thing been ever contemplated. With regard to the letters
that had been read, everybody who knew anything of
Government patronage was aware that those communica-
tions were always considered to be private. That was the
first time he had known letters of that kind to be read in
that house, and he did not believe the general had ever
sanctioned their being read. He was quite ready to ac-
knowledge Sir G. Pollock's services, and no one could
have felt more pain than he did when he felt it to) be his
duty to reuse to re-appoint the gallant general. His reason
for refusing was the conviction in his mind that the spirit
of the act required new blood to be infused into the di-
rection of Indian affairs. He considered Sir E. Rawlin-
son, whose diplomatic and military character was well
known all over the work:, a better person to fill the ap-
pointment, and by the advice of the noble lord at the
bead of the Government Sir E. Rawlinson was appointed.
Shortly after, on the vacancy caused by Mr. Melville's
retirement, Gen. Vivian was recommended for similar
reasons. He hoped the house would observe the difficul-
ties by which the Government were surrounded. Ou one
side were a number of gentlemen who announced their
intention of watching every appointment that was matte,
in order to see that the right man was put in the right
place, while on the other side were gentlemen who, on
every occasion when this principle was acted upon,
brought charges against the Government of neglecting
distinguished services. But Gen. Pollock lad never
been dismissed. His term had expired, and he ceased to
hold his appointment when his time was out as a matter
of course. He had only to say that he did not regret
the appointment he had made, and never shod l as long
as he lived, and with researd to official correspondence,
there was none in existence.
Mr. DISRAELI opposed the Indian Bill in 1853, be-
lieving that it woull not work satisfactorily or improve
the administration of our Indian affairs. And all that
had occurred since had confirmed him in that impres-
slon. And he believed that on this point the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control concurred with him.
He had at that time been somewhat reconciled to the
measure by the manner in which the Government
power of appointing directors was exercised. lie was
not surprised that Sir George Pollock should wish
to have his case hrought under the consideration of
Parliament. But in what a strange pos.tion did they
find themselves I He gave the President of the
Board of Control full credit for having acted con-
scientiously in not re-appointing General Pollock ; but
in vindicating himself he bad virtually censured his
colleague (Sir C. Wood), who had appointed the gallant

Mr. NA.PIER rose to move, " That an humble ad- .h CC, tee ..... _
questionably recollect the difficult position in which they general. It eauld not be that in three yearn ths: great
dress be presented to her Majesty, praising that she will had been placed on various occasions during the last abilities which ho was said to have possessed, and must
be graciously pleased to take into consideration, as an two or three sessions. To what was it due that there have possessed, could have passed away. The letter which
urgent measure of administrative reform, the formation
was no department to which could be committed in he had written,and which had been read to the house,
of a separate and responsible department for the affairs a satisfactory manner the consideration of any great was manly and dignified, and struck him as the produc-
of public justice." But the noise occasioned by mem- subject of legal reform ? If a measure came before lion of a man filly competent to the discharge of the
berg leaving the house, and the buzz of conversation the house with the authority of such a department, duties of an Indian director. He believed the appoint-
which prevailed for some time after the exciting teens of they would then be able to receive a report of it. merit of Sir G. Pollock three years ago was a satisfactory
personalities above reported, render
hon. and learned rendered it impossible to The effects of the present system . he would one ;he had heard nothing which caused him to think
gather even the purport of the right
gentleman'a observations. He was understood to de- the subject of the Courts of ous period to discharge the duties of the direction, and
Tnersetr?eemnftenPmtranerPdyne:Tinnufgriesadnnibcditluilonontilinagnd for providing a chief and therefore, although he was not prepared to contest the
plore the confusion, the inconvenience, and the inefficient
chargetd byls thehi Drought
administration of justice, arising from the want of an ' the
courts.
momentnow tdhiast- right
neverthelesshon .
mustgentleman'sde e 1
aideclare
exercisehisr
regret
r hise
t thatresP nGneeni n.
i PltoYi 1. o chke
efficient central supervision of all matters relating to
judicial procedure, by some person aimed with autho. projecthew.
member ogfnr before the house, the hon. gentle- was not a director, and that he (Mr. Disraeli) entertained
rity who should be in constant communication with the man
tiln
he Suffolk brought forward another for him that respect which he believed was entertained
judges and those who administered the law, to ascertain nhernpeopnogsrlitaand th (the Attorney-General) recommended for him by the people at 1 irge.
contending
nhdo
inn.g gentlemanrem ed
ies
the
rrecommendedthere
as a s e
nLt
ao
tr
id°
LIP At
oLIVI describeEß STtOhNe
coursesaid i t
pursuedwas quite
bya
what difficulties they experienced, and to suggest reme-
hlies,pr and to this twod Cr'raei.-
dies, and to devise and superintend the framing of acts
of Parliament, and the expurgation, classification, and hadybefor --a third bill was introduced, and dent of the Board of Control as derogatory either to Sir
the house . tinheisPrerPe
consolidation of statutes. The right hon. gentlemane it then three projects at one and G. Pollock, or implied that Sir C. Wood was wrong in
proceeded to urge, that if we had one department of the the same time. Another argument to be brought for- appointing him three years ago. He hoped the hon. gen-
thirddifficult adde
ward was with regard to the written and unwritten law. tivman would not piece on the records of the house a
State for taking charge of the details of legislation and
The written law consisted of a great variety of statutes statement contrary to fact, for Gen. Pollock had not been
of the administration of the law, and it was properly or-
which were frequently obscure and inconsistent, and it dismissed. He was appointed by law for two years, and
ganised, all that he had spoken of as defective in our
was difficult to ascertain what the law was. The un- was capable of being re-appointed. But if at that
system world be remedied, and, just as you had a de-
written law was in a worse condition. They had to find time his right hon. friend thought that another person
P ertinent of finance, of trade, of war, of the colonies, you
it in a hundred volumes of reports, added to without any was, from age or other circumstances, capable .f. more
should have one of justice. Lord Bacon suggested that
sufficient authority, and any gentleman of the bar who efficiently filling the office, he etas only doing his duty
there should be commissioners of
business t should be to keep their eyes ton
the
on
h law.w His ouses hose
published a volume of reports and affixed his name to it in appointing him. Nor could he admit that the high
i
added to the law, and these reports were being produced professional character of Sir G. Pollock was at all die-
(Mr. Napier'e) object was only to get something done, to
by ear ear in very considerable numbers, and when paraged by the step which was then taken.
get an efficient remedy for the existing state of things, and y
cited in y
courts of justice judges felt themselves bound to Captain L. VERNON would withdraw the word
he was confirmed in the course proposed by the opinions
act upon them as authority ; but it was impossible to al- "removal." As to the manner in which he got posses-
of many eminent men. The right hon. gentleman then
low that the law of the country did not require consoli- siou of the letters he bad read, it was sufficient to say
read rx•racts from a speech of Lord Langdale in 1836, and
dation, and if the written law required consolidation, the that they fell into his hands, and he thought be had a
also from the last speech the same noble and learned lord
unwritten law required it much more. In the observa- right to use them. As, however, there were no other
made in the House of Peers, in which he advocated the
tions which he had made as to the necessity of immediate documents in existence save those which he had read
appointment of a Minister of Justice ; and especially
attention being given to the subject, it must be under- there was nothing for which to move, and he should
in alluding to the extension of local jurisdictions
stool that he had merely stated his own opinion of the therefore withdraw his motion.
by the establishment of the county courts, he said that matter, and that the Government must not consider him The motion was then withdrawn.
that that circumstance had rendered more necessity both as being pledged to it. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
the appointment of a Minister of Justice and the simpli-
fication of the law. Fortified by these opinions, and Lord J. RUSSELL thought the whole argument of Mr. L. DAVIES submitted to the house the neees-
ur of retaining the sity for legislation to prevent the gross inequalities in
he (Mr. Napier) had thought it desirable to bring this clause to which the. Government objected. He strongly the weights and measures of the United Kingdom. The
also by that of the noble lord the member for London, the Attorney-General was in favour
subject again before the house. The law of this country objected to vesting the controlling power alluded to in
present law was quite inadequate to meet the evils
was now in a transition state ; and he believed that the the hands of the Lord Chancellor, whose hands he be-
which arose from the great inequalities of weights and
.t an fully occupied. It was measures which prevailed in different parts of the collie-
the necessity of legal education ; the reform of existing only °ll the suppositionthatthheat the Lord Chancellor was try. If the Government would not bring in a bill he
Lmrisoradatiicoonhsanocf
eallcotri,onosomfoprarsiendffucthtieomn
law had declined in public opinion. He therefore urged lieved were. already more h
law and a better mode of law-making for the future, all alreadyi overworked,er could attribute the other- would himself introduce a measure rendering it compel-
carried out on the most enlightened principles. This he • the inproposing to reform the sory that in every part of the kingdom sales should be
believed could best be done by Parliament giving to the law of marriagee, h present. Lord Chancellor omitted to
wisp unassw able fact that, •
Hofe rsaalluicehdothe
Panzs,Attornthee made by imperial weights and measures alone, and by
no others. The loss caused by the present system
country a separate department for the affairs of justice,
9 amounted to hundreds of thousands per annum between
General on opinion that existed be-
htheenpserodoucienrtarnoddutnhee
acushtiolimteor.amHenedbaeogguelduclheaovfethoef thesth
the administration of the law a better position in the eye sweep away
.thd thaeno
and he was sure that it would tend to give the law and and for criminalthe cdaninffdveeretnheeeocnof.ok
of the public. With regard to the objections which had tween bins in.
been made to the principle of his motion : in the first to the physicianand 6th Wm. IV. as related to weights and measures.
place it was asked if we were going to have a Minister one of whom producedh most savoury dishes, which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
of Justice ? were we going to have an office with a con- the other forbade im to taste. Ile would rather that no doubt could exist as the desirableness of having
appoint the Home Secretary
twinaenntetadl name ? He did not care about the name—he as Minister of Justice, an uniformity of weights and measures, but hitherto
the thing ; although, as ;regarded continental relieving him of other duties which did not pro- legislation had in vain contended with the inveterate
law, hbelong to him. He had no hope a would say that in communications had had perly
he - habits which had fixed the adoption of varying weights
with continental ' • ' forms of the law being carried without the formation of and measures in different parts of England. He did
men of ability a separate and responsible department of justice.
and learning, and their knowledge not know whether in regard to corn it would not be
imbued
__.
with the best principles Mr. ii-EATING hoped the Attorney-General 1 would better to discard bushel and quarter altogether, and sell
Hite, let there be a departmenttoflaw. But call it what you y-Genera
for the affair of justice. not insist on the omission of the clause. He thought oily by weight. But then the tithe commutation rent-
Then another objection wasta on the score of expense. Se the proper and natural head. of such a department as was charge was fixed by the bushel and quarter, and if the
did not think, however, the country would grudge referred to was the Lord Chancellor, and not the Home change were made it would be necessary also to alter
any expense for the establishmentt of a reall efficient de- Secretary. our legislation on this subject. When the bill of the hon.
partment of justice. Again, •
it was said thatitwould • The ATTORNEY'GENERAL said rather than member was introduced it should have his best atten-
terfere with the rights of the Chancellor - he would
; but as the mat raise any discussion accept the elause recora• Con.
ter now stood, it was admitted that the Chancellormending the motion as"urgent measure."
was
without such an organisation of a body unusual, if
i‘tiolnassistants as to objected to it as not unnecessary, in an ad- portance had yet been done to enforce an uniformity of
enable him t a perform the functions of a isterofJustice; dress to the Crown. weights and measures. The act of Wm. IV. was practi-
and, indeed, the Chancellor could not do everything. As The discussion was continued by Mr. Ingram, Mr. cally rendered inoperative by a proviso which defeated
to interfering with the Home Secretary, a department of Evart, Sir B. Perry, Mr, M. Chambers, Mr. I. Jiingt the rest of the measure. The evils of the present aye