The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-14 00:00:00

THE SUN;

both in Calcutta and in the Presidencies, one-half of the
official members shall consists of natives;" and he should
take the sense of the house on the subject. At present
it was optional. He thought it was of the utmost im-
portance that natives should be admitted members of these
councils,in fair proportions. It was said that the natives
would not speak in these councils, but the present gene-
ration could speak a little, and the next generation would
speak as long and as well as they did. There was a
growing desire in this country to treat India
as if it were a colony, forgetting that there was a very great
distinction between a dependency and a colony.
—y-
Itrwesapseicmta-
possible to be that, because a colony was in every
new country, while India was not only densely populated,
but there was not an inch of land in the country that did
not belong to somebody. The hon. member for Manchester
said the natives were idle and lazy, but nothing could be
further from the fact. He had never seen more beautiful
cultivation in his life than when he travelled there, and as
to the native troops, none in the world were capable of en-
during more privations; and it was well known that, dur-
ing the mutiny, they marched, in many instances, 40 miles
a day. It was not idleness, but the simple question that
that they did not get a fair return for their labour. The
planters of indigo wished to make it appear that the ryots
would net cultivate it, but it was not so ; their objection
was, that in many cases they were losers by the prices they
received.. He complained that the natives were not men-
, boned at all in the bill before the house, whereas if they
wished to govern India as it ought to be governed they
must allow them a fair share in the administration of their
own affairs. With regard to the publicity of the proceed-
; ings of the Legislative Council, he trusted it would take
place at all events to a limited extent; but he agreed with
the Governor-General that great care should be taken in
doing so, lest the people should be deceived bymisrepresen-
tations. A mere misunderstanding led to that dreadful
mutiny in which so many lives were lost. It was said by
the Governor-General, and he agreed with him, that those
reports should be made by authorised persons, and after-
wards revised, and if nobody could be found out there to do
so, the Government at home ought to provide for it. He
also thought the council should be at liberty to take a part
in discussing the revenue of the country and the means by
which it was procured, because it formed a very important
part of their functions. He believed, however, that on the
whole, with a few alterations, such as he had suggested,
Ithe bill might be made very useful, especially if one half of
the council was composed of natives.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE regretted that these important
bills were not introduced at an earlier period of the session,
and not at a time when so much pressing business was be-
fore the house. He did not believe with the hon. member
for Manchester, that the effect of their legislation would be
to have separate Governments for the different provinces of
India, nor did he wish it, because the authority of a central
united executive was the best system that could be adopted.
The introduction of non-officials into,the council was also a
great improvement; but if they admitted them they must,
in common justice, admit also a proportion of the natives.
Those connected with the Government ought, no doubt, to
have a preponderating influence, but the natives ought to
have a fair ahare in the administration of their own affairs.
Those provinces had just got out of a most tremendous re-
bellion, but he hoped a series of good measures for their
future government would have the effect in future of pre-
venting such disasters.
Col. SYKES bore testimony to the intelligence of the
natives of India. He had seen lately that they assembled
in public meetings without the presence of a single Euro-
pean, and at Bombay speeches were made to express their
gratitude to the late Lord Elphinstone, characterised by
an eloquence that could not be surpassed. He believed
their knowledge of the country and people would enable
them to confer great benefit on the administration of Go-
vernment, if they were permitted to become members of the
Council. In this bill before the house he regretted to say
they were not even alluded to; and if the hon. member for
Southwark had not given notice that he would in committee
propose that admission, he (Col. Sykes) would most cer•
tainly have done so. He thought the power given to the
Governor-General and governors of provinces over councils,
in making rules and regulations, would have the effect of
making them mere tools, the more especially as they were
not empowered to bring forward any measure affecting the
revenue without the consent of the Executive. On the
whole, however, he believed the bill would be productive of
great benefit, and he should give it his support.
Mr. BUXTON concurred with the hon. member for
Southwark as to the immense advantage the publicity of the
proceedings of the Council would confer on the country.
Experience must have shown the great value of having the
mind of the people brought to bear on measures which so
vitally affected their own interests. It was complained that
no member of these councils could bring in any question in
the shape of a charge on the public revenue without the
sanction of the Governor-General and the Executive; but
that was not at all an unreasonable proposition, for no hon.
member could so in that house. He congratulated his right
hon. friend on the success of the measures he brought for-
ward, and agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman who
preceded him, that the natives ought to have some share in
the Government of their country. It was impossible to avoid
seeing the great intelligence springing up amongst them,
and he believed they would in future avoid such calamities
as had lately happened in India by adopting such a policy,
and associating them with ourselves in the management of
their own affairs.
Mr. KINNAIRD expressed his opinion that time should
be allowed for the deliberate discussion in committee of
all the details of the measure, which had been very incon-
veniently introduced at the busiest part of the session. As
regarded the limitation of the period during which a seat at
the council was to be held, ho thought that was a matter
open to grave doubt. The placing of natives on the council
had his warmest sympathy, and the right hon. gentleman
was entitled to the best thanks of the country for his bill.
Mr. AYRTON said that the bill reminded him of an
elaborate machine containing so many levers that when its 1
maker proceeded to set it in motion he found it impossible
in consequence of the amount of friction involved in the
attempt. He believed it to be impossible to govern India
by Englishmen and those who had been designated natives.
It would have been far better if the right hon. gentleman's
council in London, composed of 15 men of the greatest ex-
perience in Indian affairs and legislation, should be charged
with, or that the Governor-General should have a direct
i veto on, any proposed legislation. Either of these courses
would have freed them from the complications in which this
bill was likely to involve them, together with the universal
distrust and hatred of a single Government. Why should
we be constantly teaching the Indian people that their
country was to be a great country, and yet make them fa-
miliar with the idea that 40,000 men governed a population
of 200,000,000? By separating the Government as much
as possible into portions they would avoid all those dangers
and acquire many important advantages, whereas if they
did not regard that great principle of policy he much feared
that before long consequences would ensue which that house
would deeply regret to see. Re merely made those re-
marks, leaving it to the right hon. gentleman to take ad-
vantage of them if he thought proper ; but, at any rate, he
implored him to make his bill more conformable to Asiatic
ideas, and above all not to deal with details by the Imperial
Parliament.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE hoped the house would not
accept the statements of the hon. member as the opinion
of those who had most maturely considered the subject.
He certainly objected to having no less than four impor-
tant Indian bills brought before them on one evening, each
of which would have deserved an evening to itself. He ob-
jected to the procedure all the more because they had not
before them the opinion of the Indian Council. The inevi-
table effect of the establishment of these debating societies
in connexion with a despotic Government would be to cause
a great increase of the cost of governing ;Julia. If the Go-
vernment, instead of bringing in these four bills this year,
had brought in some well-devised scheme of finance by
which the army and navy of India, and theseneral admi-
nistration, would have been placed on a better footing, they
would have more effectually promoted their ostensible ob-
ject. . _ .

Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR totally dissented from the view
of the hon. baronet opposite. He believed that it was im-
possible for the Government to equalise revenue and expen-
diture, however, much thf•y might desire that, until the
general government of India had been fundamentally im-
proved. The means for that purpose provided by the bills
of the Government appeared to him to be well calculated
for that object, and a good sound financial system must in
the end result from it.

Sir C. WOOD said he had explained so fully the nature
of the bill, and the principles on which it was based when
he moved for leave to introduce it, that it was not neces-
sary for him again to trouble the house at any length. It
was the less so from the nature of the speeches which had
been delivered by hon. members that night, and to which
ezwe
views
in
expressed
_
upon the whole he had listened with great gratification.
He was pleased to find such general approval of the princi-
ples and objects of the measure, which in fact carried out
the views impressed
with Us in theGf°uvtuenarrc,
nor the upon Lord Canning by long
Heexperi-
ence certainly could not concur in the
for the Tower Hamlets. The great
hon. :mile er by the hon. member for Radnor,
the bills before the hmou
object of the
one subject of her Majestymake any
might be their race, language, •
those who were employed would
et was to associate the natives
administration of India. Nor did
and another, whatever
Of course
capacity and attainments ; but there wsoould accordingb to their
dis-
tinctions of inferiority and superiority ereateednbo legal
etween the
different subjects of her Majesty by act of Parliament.
associate the natives with us in the government t 1
India
frankly and fairly, was the spirit which ran throughath
whole of the bills he had laid on the table. The desire of the
Government was to act in the fullest manner on the pro-
clamation which her Majesty issued on assuming the direct
government of India, and he felt gratified by the general
approval which had been extended to this bill. (Hear.)
orbereligion. distinction between
The bill was then read a second time.
EAST INDIA (HIGH COURTS OF JUDICATURE)

BILL.
Sir C. WOOD moved that this bill be izad second
time.
Mr. HADFIELD said there was a great want of barris-
ters and legally educated persons in India conversant with
the laws and languages of India, as well as with the law of
this country. He thought that as it was proposed tc) Mg'