The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-26 00:00:00

FEi3iitiPARY 26, 1861.

fully considered the matter. It occurred to him that where
the case was heard by the chief judge in company with a
commissioner, it was not desirable to give the bankrupt
whose discharge had been refused a right of appeal. But
in the cases where the commissioner heard and decided
alone, they had the right of appeal to the chief judge.
The clause, and also clauses to 181 inclusive, were
agreed to.
On clause 185,

Mr. MOFFATT moved the omission of the clause, and
that the following clause be inserted in lieu thereof :—" At
a meeting of the declaration of a final dividend, the accounts
of the creditors assignee shall be audited by the official
assignee, in the presence of the registrar or the county
court judge, as the case may be, and thereafter the creditors'
assignee shall be entitled to his discharge, unless cause
be shown to the contrary." He thought the clause, as it
stood, was so stringent, that it would prevent any respect-
able merchant from accepting the office of assignee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought there was no-
thing in the clause to deter respectable men from under.
taking the duties of the office of assignee.
After some conversation, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL
having proposed some alterations which met the views of
Mr. Moffittt, that gentleman's clause was withdrawn.
The clause as amended was then agreed to, as were also
clauses up to 197 inclusive with verbal amendments.
The!ATTORNEY-G ENERAL intimated that he would re-
sume the committee on this bill that day week.
The CHAIRMAN then loft the chair and the house re-
sumed.

APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL,

Sir G. C. LEWIS in moving the second reading of this
bill said, that as the principle of the bill was the filling up
of four vacant seats no hon. member who voted for the
second reading of the bill would be bound to the parti-
cular arrangement which was proposed in the bill, nor be
precluded from taking any course he might deem to be ex-
pedient and fitting in the next stage of the bill. If that
view of the matter should be acquiesced in he should
simply now move that the bill be read a second time.
On the question being put,
Mr. BAXTER, said he had not any objection to the

transfer of the seats, but he could not concur in the pro-
posal that the bill should be read a second time sub
silentic His object in rising was to call attention to the
claims of Scotland to ono of the vacant seats, and to
express a hope that they would give one seat to the
Universities of Scotland instead of giving it to Chelsea
or Kensington. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) lie would
leave that question in the hands of the hon. member who
had given a notice on the subject, and he hoped the Scotch
members, irrespective of party, would give the hon. mem-
ber for Perthshire their earnest and cordial support.
(Hear, hear.) The universities in Scotland were at pre-
sent entirely unrepresented, though they were celebrated
in all countries, and he wished them, therefore, to under-
stand the great injustice that was practised on Scotland,
and that the people of Scotland looked forward to a great
increase in the number of their members. Ho hoped the
Government would deal with the borough of Berwick-
upon-Tweed as they had done with Sudbury and St.
Albans, and transfer the seat either to Dundee or Aber-
deen. There was the county of Ayr, and other Scotch
counties, which only returned ono member each. He held
in his hand a return which was printed in March, 1859,
which was made upon the joint basis of taxation and of
population. According to that basis of representation
Scotland should return 73 members, whereas it only re-
turned 53 ; and, upon the same basis, Ireland, which re-
turned 105 members, should only return 101. Ireland hod,
therefore, four members more than it was entitled to. He,
therefore, thought that one of the vacant seats should be
given to the Universities of Scotland.
Mr. BENTINCK considered the proposal of the right
hon. gentleman, the Home Secretary, as unjust. There
had been much said in that house about Reform, and there
had always been great difficulty found respecting it, but
the real evil was that the rural districts had not their fair
share of the franchise. (Hear, hear.) The position which
he maintained was, that while popular orators were
clamouring about popular rights, and for extending the
franchise to the working classes—the claims of the popula-
tion of the rural districts were wholly overlooked, Now
it was admitted that taxation and representation were
convertible terms. If this were so, then, there was no
doubt that the rural districts had the strongest claims pos-
sible on that house to have the representation increased.
How stood the fact? Why, that the property of the
counties amounted to sixty millions sterling, the in-
habited houses exceeded three millions, and the popula-
tion was ten millions. The property in boroughs amounted
to £42,000,000. The value of inhabited houses in boroughs
was £1,200,000, and the population was about £7,000,000.
So stood the facts of the case, and arguing from them he
should say that the rural districts ought to have an addi-
tion of 144 members. (Laughter.) He also objected to the
proposed plan of the Government, seeing that it proposed
to increase the number of the Metropolitan members. Now,
his opinion was that instead of being increased they ought
to be lessened. (A laugh.) The proposed addition in this
respect was a subject of serious consideration to the house.
As, however, it was said that this was a matter that ought
to be considered in committee, he would not farther occupy
the attention of the house.
Captain CARNEGIE said what he complained of was,
that the bill did not go far enough. He should be glad that
Gloucester, Wakefield, and Berwick-upon-Tweed had been
included in the disfranchising clauses of the measure, as
these borough had given proofs that they were influenced
by corrupt motives in sending members to Parliament.
(Hear.) The claims of Salford, of the county of Cork, of
Staleybridge, Aberdeen, and other places, had been urged
upon the consideration of the house for an additional mem-
ber. His opinion was that that place which made out the
strongest claim ought to have the benefit of the representa-
tion they asked for. lie saw no special reason why one of
the seats in question should be given to the West Riding
of Yorkshire, while there were other places that could
show stronger claims to be represented in that house.
And hero he must urge upon the house the very great
claims which the universities of Scotland had to be
represented in that house. Oxford, Cambridge, and
Dublin had two members each, but the universities
of Scotland were not represented here. This being
the case he thought the modest demand which the
Scotch universities made for one member ought not to be
overlooked; and he was sure of this that any member
who was returned by the constituencies of the Scotch
universities would be an honour and credit to that house.
(lit ar, hear.)
Mr, PEACOCK expressed his regret that the opportu-
nity of affording a direct representation to the working
classes in that house had been thrown away. Recent legis-
lation had tended materially to improve the position of the
working classes in the country, and yet it was to be re •
gretted that the class of our fellow-citizens had no direct
representation within the walls of that assembly. Under
the Reform Bill the classes whose interests were taken
care of were those in the middle ranks of society, and it
ought now to be their duty to sce that the working classes
should be represented in some way. lie would take the two
large towns of Liverpool and Manchester, and he would
ask, why not add to the representation of these towns, an
additional member to each, to be returned by electors rated
under £lO ? The £lO franchise under the Reform Bill
gave the borough representation into the hands of a parti •
cuter class, but it was their duty to extend the franchise in
the way he suggested, in order that the representatives of
the working classes might eit side by side in that house
with the representatives of the £lO franchise, and thus the
working classes would, through their direct representa-
tives, have an opportunity of having their views and feel-
ings brought fully and fairly under the consideration of
that branch of the Legislature. (Hear, hear.) The only
way in which the working classes had of making them-
selves heard in the country was by attending monster and
suss, ilhe meetings, and it was possible that during a period
of excitement In the country their attendance at these meet-
ings might lead to inconvenience. But it they had a direct
representation by the means which he suggested in that
house, they would not be induced to attend such meet-
ings, but would be content that their views came properly
before that house through the medium of their recognised
representatives. For himself he must say he had

every confidence in the working classes, and he
was satisfied they would send proper and effi-
cient members to represent them in the Legislature.
The constituencies of the metropolis possessed an in-
fluence which was not adequately represented by the mere
numerical votes of their representatives ; for whenever a
metropolitan grievance was brought forward, if there wore
only a vhadow of foundation for it, it was immediately re-
dressed. The representation of Kensington and Chelsea
would not effect tho enfranchisement of any new class of
the community, and for that reason ho strongly objected to
_ _

it. lie could only say ho had a strong feeling on the sub.

ject, and if any lon. gentleman would move in committee a
resolution embodying the views he had enunciated, he might
rely upon his receiving the most cordial support from him.
Mr. LOCKE said that he should not have risen to speak

in that debate had it not been for the usual attack on the
metropolitan members. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The
hon. member for Maldon came forward in a generous way
on that occasion, and seeing four seats vacant expressed his
readiness that they should be given to the working classes.
According to his plan, however, those four representatives
would be elected on different conditions to the remainder
of the house ; but, setting aside that consideration, he
would ask the hon. gentleman whether the working
classes, who numbered 6,000,000, according to the esti-
mate of the hon. member for Norfolk, were likely to
be put off by a representation of four members. If
they were, he should say that they would forfeit all claim
to the intelligent character which was attributed to them
without contradiction. The hon, member for Norfolk had
expressed a great aversion to the metropolitan members,
but he did not see that he had given them any good
reasons for that opinion. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Having himself had a long experience as a member for a
metropolitan borough, ho was altogether unable to confirm
what had Lech a a srl by the hon. member for Maldon as
to tho ease and readiness with which metropolitan grie-
vances were redressed. On the contrary, he generally found
said the fact of a complaint being metropolitan, disinclined
the Government to attend. to it, while a grievance brought
frou; Inland kialccliotely oll§tvtl otrog feeling 9i4244

nos sirens the English members which led to its speedy cor-
rection--(latigixtet from the Irish members) and the
Scotch members showed themselves fully sensible of the
value of union, for no matter wbether a Lord Advocate was
Whig or Tory, he dined at Greenwich with the other
Scotch members. (Laughter.) Now the hon. member for
Norfolk had brought forward some figures which nobody
had risen to answer, because no one thought there was any-
thing in them, and he did not think there was much. The
hon. gentleman said that the counties should have more
members. (Conservative cheers.) The hon. gentleman
contended in support of that proposition by a reference to
the population of the country districts. But what was that
population ? Why it was composed of those very working
classes to which the hon. gentleman and hon. gentlemen
opposite persisted in denying the franchise. (Cheers )
Then with regard to his other point, that of taxation. If
taxation were to bo the criterion, what place could have a
better claim to increased representation than the metro-
polis? Whether from population, therefore, or taxation,
or the interests it contained, were derived the proper basis
of the representation, the metropolis was entitled to a much
larger share than it at present enjoyed. Its population was
nearly 3,000,000, while its representatives were only 18 in
number, or 20, including the two members for Middlesex.
On this question, therefore, the hon. member for Norfolk,
in advocating his extraordinary views on the question of
Reform, scarcely did justice to himself, and he hoped that,
after having had an opportunity of re-considering them, he
would, when the subject was next under consideration, ad-
dress them a wiser and better man. (Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. BLACKBURN deprecated the principle laid down
by the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary in intro-
ducing the bill, that because these were English seats they
ought to be given to England, for if that principle were
to be fully carried out, any re-distribution of seats which
would redress the grievance of Scotland would henceforth
bo impossible. No more distinction should now be made
between the country north and south of the Tweed than
was now made with reference to the Thames, the Trent, or
the 1 yne. Looking at the comparative representation of
England and Scotland, he had found that in 10 counties
south of the Thames, with the county of Middlesex, more
representatives were enjoyed than was enjoyed in Scot-
land ; yet now it was proposed to enfranchise Kensington
and Chelsea, a district which, with a less intellectual com-
munity than that of Lanarkshire, only produced asparagus
and mushrooms. (Cheers and laughter.)
Lord ENFIELD expressed his gratification at the sub-
ject having been taken in hand by the Government. Per-
sonalities had unfortunately entered into the discussion, but
he could assure the house that, while the rural districts
were not denied their full rights to a fair share in the repre-
sentation, on the other hand, there was no reason to put
objections to the metropolitan members. He feared the
hon. member for Norfolk bad not taken into account
schedule D as well as schedule A of the income tax, in re-
ference to his relative estimate of taxation.
Mr. C. BRUCE said that the united Universities of
Scotland were, on every showing, fairly entitled to be re-
presented ; and, were the point conceded, the house would
gain an irreproachable constituency, while the cause of
education in Scotland would receive a powerful impetus.
Colonel DUNNE said the agricultural and landed inte •
rests were not fairly represented, and this was especially
the case with regard to Ireland. Boroughs were much
better represented in that house than the counties were.
This was proved by statistics; for whereas in boroughs
there was one member to £127,274 in the valuation, there
was in the counties only one to £380,906. Some hon. gen-
tlemen had talked of the working classes being represented.
No doubt they ought to be represented, and were repre-
sented, but it was not by those whom they called their owss
members, but by his (the Conservative) side of the house.
(Opposition cheers.) In proof of this, he would ask who
it was that supported the Ten Hours' Bill, the bill for
Fencing Machinery, and the Factories and Bleaching
Works Bills? They had been carried by that (the Oppo-
sition) side of the house, with one or two splendid excep •
tions, as, for instance, when the hon. member for Sheffield
raised his voice on. behalf of the working men. In fact,
liberty in the mouths of such persons was similar to liberty
in the mouths of the Southern secession party in America,
with whom it signified liberty to retain their slaves in bon-
dage. The Southern Americans were . always talking of
liberty, but did not extend it to their slaves; and some
members professing to represent the working classes in
that house acted in the same way. He thought in justice
one of those seats ought to go to Ireland. (Ileer, hear,
and laughter.) Last year two of them were promised to
Ireland, and no one objected ; with what show of reason,
therefore, could they object this year ? (Hear.) Though
105 was the proportion settled for Ireland at the Union,
the population had gone on increasing, and there was no
reason why the representation should remain at that num.
her. He contended that the representation was at present
very unequal, and should be more fairly balanced ; for there
was in England ono member to 36,612, in Ireland one to
65,924, and in Scotland one to 54,000. Two of there seats
having been promised to Treland last year, he did not see
how they could justly be refused now.
Mr. JACKSON advocated the claims of Birkenhead,
which he said would begin with 5,319 voters, of whom
2,500 were over the £2O rental ; there were between 50,000
ana (*emu inuatntants, ana tn.e number was constantly in-
creasing with a rapidity unexampled in any other part of
the country. In fact, by the time this measure came into
operation in December, the number of voters Would have
increased to over 6,000.
Mr. HORSMAN bogged to draw the attention of th:
house to one point which had not been adverted to in the
debate. A paper had been put into his hand by an hon.
member which led him to think that the conclusions which
his hon. friend bad arrived at would lead the house to one
result. „He stated that there were twenty metropolitan
representatives, and that if they took the population into
account there ought to be 40 members. Iledoubted it if they
were to take the number of representatives by those who
theoretically sat for those constituencies. Here was a list of
no fewer than seven very eminent London bankers, all of
them representing etherconstituencies, but whose residences
and interests were all in the City of London. (Hear.) Then
he found that there were also no less than eight Bank di-
rectors, who also sat in that house as the representatives of
other constituencies. There were also four aldermen of the
City of London who represented rural constituencies. There
were also five great merchant princes, eminent London mer-
chants, representing distinct constituencies from those of
London; but no man in that house would say that where
the interests of the metropolis were concerned, they would
not be representatives as accessible and as efficient as any of
those who represented a metropolitan borough. (Hear.)
Then, there were six very eminent shipowners, whose com-
mercial interests were in the City of London ; and without
going more minutely through the list, he might say there
were no less than 40 members in that house, in addi -
tion to the 20—all eminent men, all as available, as
fit, and as well adapted to represent the Metropolitan inte-
rests as any metropolitan member who represented them.
(Hear.) That was putting out of the question a great many
others who, like himself, were electors for metropolitan
districts, having property in those districts, and who were
entitled to assist in all matters of local interest, and who
were more or less representatives of metropolitan consti-
tuencies. So far, therefore, from there being only 20 re-
presentatives, there were more than the number of 40 mem-
bers, which was the number demanded by his hon. friend
(Mr. Locke). He would say, then, that there sat in that
house from 40 to 50 members unconnected with the repre-
sentation of metropolitan districts, who still were as di-
rectly connected with all metropolitan interests as any of
those who had been elected to that house. There was another
point which was very much lost sight of, which was that
in the claim of any constituency to representation the
question of locality and vicinity should be considered. He
held that any borough being within the vicinity of the me-
tropolis, having two members residing within 10 miles of
the metropolis, and who were always accessible, did not re-
quire so many representatives as a district in Ireland or
Scotland of the same population. For those reasons he
thought ^ esoeeties. er gravy avuht whether the metro-
polis was not represented far more in proportion than more
distant constituencies who had greater claims. (Hear,
hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said the principle under discussion
in the Government Bill was the distribution of the four
vacant seats, and the question for the consideration of the
house was the distribution of those seats. His opinion was
that two of those seats ought to be disposed of in a different
manner, and he:must say that he thought the Government/
in the disposal of the seats, might give a third seat to the
West Riding of Yorkshire, which at present had but two
members, but whose population and importance justly en-
titled it to look for a third member to represent its great
interests.
Mr. ROUPELL said that many of the objections which
had been raised by hon. members to the Government bill
might be far more fitly made in committee. He merely
rose to express his entire dissent from the opinion of the
right hon. gentleman the member for Stroud. It appeared
to him a most extraordinary notion that the metropolis
should be considered as represented by 40 or 50 members,
who were returned by other constituencies, because they
were more or less interested. (Hear, hear.) Surely the
noble lord the member for Marylebone might be considered
as representing an Irish borough. (Hear.) Nothing could be
more absurd than to say that the metropolis was represented
by 40 or 50 gentlemen who were supposed at the same time to
represent their own constituencies. (Hear.) Did they repre-
sent their own constituencies, or did they not ? They might
represent the general interests of the country, but it
was idle to say that those seven or eight bankers, those
eight directors, and also those gentlemen who were con-
nected with the shipping interests were sent to that house
as the representatives of the metropolitan constituencies,
rather than the constituencies that returned them to that I
house.

Lord W. GRAHAM was anxious to ask her Majesty's
Government what course they meant to pursue with regard
to the motion put on the paper by the hon. member for
Finsbury (Mr. Duncombo). He put that question because
he thought it might influence certain members when the
house wont into committee ox that bill. Now, if the Go •
vernment did not intend to oppose that motion it would be
unwise in them, in his opinion, to proceed further with the
present bill. (Hear.) The result of the census next year
might alter materially the determination which hon. mem-
bvrs 09140 t 9 as to too places cia which additivAg No'

presentatives should be conferred. The Government mu, it,
he presumed, have fully made uptheir mind on the que
and he desired to be iuformd whether they intends d
to support or oppose the motionof the hon. member f or
Fiasbury.
Mr. COLLINS said ho was gad the vacant seats were to
be filled up, but he cotasideredthat the West Riding of
York had not meted out to it tbat measure of justice whi,
sh
was promised last year. He blight they might vote far
the second reading of th." bill, tnd then in committee me
such amendments as they believed desirable.
Mr. V. SCULLY wished that the silence of the 10 ifit
members might not be interpreted as an approv-fd of t
measure. They had heard claims made for the vacant se:..' ta
on the part of Scotland and the metropolis, but in his op
nion they ought to be kept open until a bone fide reform bi 11
was introduced. He protested against this miserable al td.
wretched apology for a reform and if any hon. member
divided the house he should vote against the second read in g.
Major PARKER said that he ha.i received a letter fr( ,m
the mayor of the ancient borough of Sudbury which he
should like to communicate to the hong:. For three eel t -
turies, up to the year 84, when the borough was dis
franchised, it enjoyed theprivilege of returning two men t-
bers to Parliament in cersideration of services rendered t o
the Crown. The western division of Suffolk, in vvhich Sud !-
bury was situated, returned only 9 members, while tb e
county of Sussex returned 18, Wiltshire 18, and B,Acking
hamshire 11. The mayor pointed out that numerous other,
constituencies had been convicted of bribery and corrupt:fon*
and yet they were allowed to retain the right of electing
r 'ems
presentatives. In Gloucester and Wakefield the writs werck
suspended, and at Berwick •on-Tweed the house could not
forget what had very recently occurred. Would the Govern-
ment deal out the saute penalties to those smaller consti-
tuencies who had fallen into the grievous error of corrup- .
tion and bribery as they now proposed to inflict on the
larger delinquents ?
The bill was then
read a second time, and the considera-
tion in committee fixed for Thursday week.

HIGHWAYS BILL.
Sir G. C. LEWIS moved the second reading of this bill.
He hoped the house would assent to the motion, as the mea-
sure had been fully discussed last session. (Cries of "No,
no.")
Mr. HENLEY said he trusted the hon. gentleman would
not, at so late an hour, ask the house to consider a measurer
with reference to which many bon. gentlemen desired to-
...pre.. their epionn.
Lord PALIIE itSTON moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Mr. II appcalcd to the rigM hon. gentleman to
fin some definite period when hon. members interested in
this important question might rely that the bill would be
discussed.
Sir G• C. LEWIS would do his best to name a day when
the house could, without further delay or postponement,
consider the bill.
CRIMINAL LAW CONSOLIDATION AND
AMENDMENT.

• On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL the
Select Committee on Criminal Law and Consolidation
Amendment was appointed, to consist of the following
members Attorney-General, Mr. Solicitor-General,
Sir George Cornewall Lewis, the Lord Advocate, Sir Fitzroy
Sir Hugh Cairns, Mr. Whiteside, Mr. George, Hr.
Mure, Mr. Massey, Mr. Henley, Mr. Selwyn, Mr. Walpole,
Mr. Gaythorne Hardy, Mr. Roebuck, Mr. Edwin James,
Mr. Butt, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Mellor, Mr. Sergeant King—
lake, Mr. Bovill, Mr. Cobbett, Mr. Collier, Mr. Locke, Mr.
Hadfield, Mr. M'Mahon, Mr. Ewert, Mr. Digby Seymour,
Mr. Denman, and Mr. Ayrton ; power to send for persons,
papers, and records ; five to be the quorum.
The house then adjourned at ten minutes to 12 o'clock.

COUNTRY MARLETS.

COLCHESTER-FEB. 23.

A moderate supply of wheat ; best samples readily rea—
lised the fall prices of last week ; inferior parcels difficult
of sale. Fine malting barley commands full prices, and
other sorts dull. Beans and peas as before.
Wheat, white ....60s to 68s Beans, Mazagan..36s to 42s
red ......44s to 60s Middle & small 44s to 50a
Barley
Oats ..—s to —s Girey.. 424 to 488