The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-12 00:00:00

THE 'SITN„ LONDON. FRIDAY EVKNiNG. JULY 12, 1861.

plementary system recommended by the commissioners was
the same as that recommended by the noble lord and by him-
self ; it recognised the necessity for local aid and assistance,
and for local funds. The commissioners advised a county
rate. He had on various occasions advised a parochial rate.
He would not now enter into the question of the compare •
live expediency of a parochial or county rate, but in prin-
ciple they were all agreed that local aid and control were
necessary. It had always been predicted that the expenses
of the existing system would gradually become larger
than the house could bear, and already had' that prediction
been fulfilled. Tho sum granted by this house every
year for the promotion of national education had increased
from £30,000 in 1839 to 14830,000 in 1859. From that time
it had retrograded ; he was sorry to say that many allow-
ances had been reduced. The time had come when the
Minister had said that the grant must go no further, and
that diminished grants mutt henceforth be proposed. A
most valuable class of schools—the refuge—which had ren-
dered the most important aid to thousands of poor children,
had received notice that they were no longer to enjoy the
assistance now extended to, them after the close of the pre-
sent year. A more unwise economy had never, he thought,
been practised, and he deeply regretted it. (Hear, hear.)
In the present estimate there is a large, an*, as he thought,
a most unfortunate decrease in the grant for reformatories
and ragged schools, the grant beingl9,7oo, and the decrease
from last year no less than £8,200. The class benefited by

ragged schools was peculiarly entitled to the consideration
of the house, but looking at the question only as one cif
pounds, shillings, and penoe, he contended that no money
should be spent more economically or to better advantage
than that bestowed on those schools. Last year he had
made an appeal in their favour, but he was sorry to say it
had been sternly refused by the right hon. gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Lowe). They had, however, last year been asked
for a grant of upwards of £lOO,OOO for the cultivation and
improvement of science and at t. He had no objection to
grants being made for that purpose, but he did object to
those grants being accompanied by a declaration that they
could no longer afford grants for the elementary instruction
of those who were too poor to educate themselves. (Hear,
hear.) He could give an illustration of the working of this
grant for the promotion of science and art. Examinations
were held in that department in different party of the coun-
try, and last December one of those examinations took
place at Brighton. His youngest son, who was at school
at Brighton, and who had a considerable taste for drawing,
became a competitor. A first cousin of the boy also com•
peted, and they both of them had the luck to gain prizes.
Those prizes were paid for out of the grants passed by this
house. (Hear, hear.) He would ask the house what consis•
tency there was in granting such a large sum for such a pur-
pose, when they saw by the report on the table that there were
15,000 schools languishing for want of funds to enable them
to give elementary education. (Hear, hear.) He thought he
could not mention a more apt illustration than that of his

own son, and the facts showed that the present system im-
peratively required an alteration. (Hear, hear.) He held
that this question was most important as bearing upon the
business on which they were about to enter, namely, the
annual grant for education. Whatever might be the merits
of the present system—and he had not denied them—it
would be impossible to expect that the educational require-
ments of the country could be adequately met by this sys-
tem alone. (Hear, hear.) He thought ,the able report of
the commissioners had proved to demonstration that the
present system under which the education of the masses
was assisted must be still more assisted by a further grant.
(Hear.) He did not littend now to press the Government to
give their opinion upon the report, because he could not
deny the difficulties which surrounded the subject, though
he had often urged its importance--(hear)-e-and therefore
it would be most unreasonable to expect any Government to
have made up their minds on a report which had been
issued Only a few months. All he would ask was that the
Government should consider the valuable contents of the
report during the recess, with a view to legislate on the sub-
ject in the next session of Parliament. The noble lord, the
Secretary for Foreign Affeirs, and the noble duke, the Se-
cretary for the Colonies, were members of the commission,
and that would lead the house to hope that the Government
would found upon the report a measure which would be
satisfactory to the house and the country.
Mr. HENLEY said he cordially coincided in the recom-
mendation which his right hon friend had given to the Go-
vernment, that in the coming recess they would seriously
consider this large and valuable report--(hear, hear)—and
he thought he might say that no man would be more than
himself satisfied with the judgment the Government would
come to in legislating upon. it. He was not surprised that
his right hon. friend had—indeed, it would have been un-
natural if he had not—congratulated himself on the report
of the commissioners, because there were many parts of it
which sanctioned the course of action which he had recom-
mended on secular education. His right hon. friend bad
read passages of the report to the house which showed that
the recommendations of the commissioners were identical
in principle with those which be had recommended. He
would ask the hougt to seriously cone der what those re-
commendations were. The commissioners, after discussing
the propositions upon which themeasures of the Manchester
school and others were founded, said that they were all
framed with remarkable skill in every detati, nut that they
had failed partly because the ratepayers would not provide
the funds, and partly because they interfered with religi-
ous teaching in the schools. (Hear.) The commissioners
further expressed an opinion that the calling forth of local
action was an essential requisite to mass. He (Mr.
Henley) would be surprised if the local action which the
commissioners proposed would not be found upon examina-
tion to interfere with the religious character of the schools.
His right hon. friend said that the expenses of the present
system must be supplemented in some way, and so said the
commissioners ; and it came to this, that so much ahead,
about 205., was to be paid for every child that could read
and write, and the amount for each school would have
to be ascertained by a county board and local examiners
consisting of schoolmasters. The amount required would
have to be paid out of the county rates. Now,
if that were all that was required to make the present sys-
tem perfect, why not do it at once, without waiting further
legislation next year ? It should be remembered that the re-
port throughout the length of it showed that the opinions
of the commissioners were nearly balanced—(hear)—and
that they supported the most conflicting and contradictory
views. They said the present plan of the Education Board
was the only ono by which it was possible to secure the re-
ligious character of the system. The commissioners did not
enter upon a proof of their assertions, but said it was enough
for their purpose to say that that was their deliberate opi-
nion. (Hear.) The commissioners in another part of the re-
port said that their inquiry impressed them with the con-
viction that no other system than the present was practica-
ble in the present state of religious feeling in England. That
was an important admission. (Hear, hear.) Then they came
to the recommendation of the commissioners as to how pub-
lic assistance ought. to be given to schools. Now his right
hon. friend had throw it out, almost as a matter of reproach,
that there were 15,000 schools, educating 1,200,000 or
1,300,000 children, carried on without the aid of public
money. But he (Mr. Henley) could not understand why
people should not be allowed to educate themselves and their
neighbours if they thought fit so to do. (Hear, hear.) Why
should they be paid public money if they could do without
it ? (Hear.) His right hon. friend said he saw that every-
thing which he had desired should be done was coming
about, and that he was now satisfied with the number of
children at school, but that he wanted to improve the qua-
lity of education. He (Mr. Henley) thought that if they
showed the people the right way to proceed and then left
them alone, they would arrive at a satisfactory result. The ,
commissioners did not say one word about religious teach-
ing in their conditions for public money grants. They were
that the schools should be properly ventilated, that they
should be drained ;, that there should be eight square feet
to every child ; that the schools should be open to inspec-
tion, and that they should be favourably reported upon.
Those were the conditions of the commissioners, and they
recommended, under the head of public relief rendered ac-
cording to their scheme, that the funds should be provided
from the general taxation of the country and from the county
rates. (Hear,) The report showed the rate per head of
relief, and the circumstances under which it should be paid
to the schools. Now all these were serious matters when
the Government was pressed to legislate upon them, and
they would require a very careful consideration on the part
of the Government, the house, and the country. (Hear.)
A committee had been appointed to watch the proceedings
of Parliament with reference to education, which commit-
tee included many influential names, and that committee
had come to conclusions widely different from those of the
commissioners. The National Society reported that there
was great danger to religion from the sort of education re-
commended by the commissioners. The commissioners had
taken too limited an area for their calculations, 108 parishes

third,
assessedm
making
i Lu
g 5 048
6, 08000
0,
()too. which
Had
theyt h e y
adopted arbitrarily
a wider added
basisene -
\ they would have 'come to entirely different conclusions. lie
em employedpupilswho werem u
years of age
less cultivation. they much better have teachers of
the
believed the teachers
meats, and if they had
qua-
lity of education at
stofleatovoe haitghloatotrainu-
prr, hear.) With respect to the
between the repoertsesnotiven there was great discre-
pancytables of the Privy the commissioners and the
Council, th
cc well," "fir," in thousands ooflatter giving •° excellent,"
com-
missioners had reported the acquirements
in which the
to be of the roost superficial character.Thets of the children
rasher better in regard to writing than reading, reports were
7,486 schools, good reports were returned from Out of
. 6,782, a very
large proportion. In regard to arithmetic, the ~., ,-
J were 7,459 schoOls and 6,23-; good reports; and what
ap-
peared to be still more inconsistent was the result it re
gard to grammar—out of 5,800 schools inspected 4,300
being reported as excellently well grounded in grrmmar.
If, in return for £500,000 a year for these trained
teachers and pupil teachers, they only got ore-fourth
of the 900,000' children taught, it would be wftl fel the
Privy Council to take the matter into their eonsiteration in
the retess to determine whether it would be better to teach
all the children to read, write,
.and cypher, ant' leave alone
the higher branches of education. (Hear, heir.) But the
commissioners were anxious to make a little Addition to the
qualifications of teachers, and it was a nyst curious one.
They said there was a capital defect in tNse trill-nod marl-
ters ; it used to be said that's cleanlinesawas next to god-
liness," but the commissioners.were o' opinion that the
next thing to godliness was political neotoiny—lauzb ter and

chiers) ; another capital defect in the teaChers was a want
of knowledge of sanitary science ; and these were the quail •
fications necessary for the instruction of children up to 10
or 11 years of age. Ono of the commissioners was formerly
a professor of political economy, and it was said that people
were apt to look with great favour upon what they did well,
and perhaps this might account for that part of the report.
But there was one sentence in the report which, if the
whole of the rest was, set aside, he believe d would entitle the
commissioners to the thanks of the country, and that was
their description of what a schoolmaster ought, and what
he ought not to be. They say—" We may observe, in con-
clusion, that the occupation of an elementary schoolmaster
is not well suited for a young man of an adventurous, stir-
ring, or ambitious character, and that it is rather a misfor-
tune than otherwise when persons of that temper of mind
are led into it by the prospect which its earlier stages ap-
pear to afford of rising in the world socially as well as in-
tellectually. It is a life which requires a quiet, even temper,
patience, sympathy, fondness for children, and habitual
cheerfulness." A more beautiful description of what was ne_
cessary for a schoolmaster, and which so entirely accorded
with his judgment of what these teachers should be, he never
remembered to have seeu. The commissioners went on to say
—" It wants rather good sense and quiet intelligence than a
veryinquisitive mind or brilliant talents, and the prospects
which it affords appear well calculated to attract the class of
sons best fitted for it." He asked the right hon. gentleman
the Vice-President of the Board of Education, and the house,
whether the system now practised for training these school-
masters was likely to secure such men as come within these
descriptions. They took the quickest child, with the greatest
precocity of intellect, and of the greatest energy, and forced
him in a kind of hot-bed of instruction as a pupil-teacher
till he went into the training school, and when he got into
the training school the process' f forcing still went on. The
country paid £lOO,OOO a-y ear to these training colleges, and
there was no doubt the training colleges were obliged to
come to the house for this large sum of money, because a
very large proportion of the community out of doors—the
people who supported the 15,000 schools—said they did not
get the article they wanted—that the article was too high.
If the training schools were to produce an article that would
suit the 15,000 schools they might depend upon it that the
same elements that supported the schools would prevent the
demand upon the public purse for the support of the training
schools. (Hear, hear.) But if they would have Oxford and
Cambridge men at the head of these institutions, and tested
the qualifications of the teachers by examination papers of
such a character that half the members of that house would
turn their backs upon them unable to answer the questions—
(a laugh)--and these qualifications, let it be remembered,
were for the education of children of ten or eleven years of
age only—it behoved those who had the charge of the grant
to look cloeely into the matter, and to tell the house in an-
other year how far they agreed and how far they disagreed
with the commissioners, and whether they thought that the
addition of political economy and sanitary science to the
present requirements would make the trained teachers more
likely to buckle down to the difficult task of teaching young
children reading and writing—(hear, hear)—and whether
the forced system of educating pupil teachers was likely
to produce " even temper, patience, sympathy, fondness
, for children, and habitual cheerfulness." (Hear, hear.)
, He had not had the experience that would enable him
to pronounce an opinion upon the matter—he merely stated
these things=he had looked carefully into the report, and
he saw these results, thcugh the evidence the commissioners
had adduced did not lent him exactly to these conclusions.
He was only sorry that to had occupied so much of the time
of the house, but having made a strong appeal to the
Government in the direction of education, he could not help
saying a few words upon the subject. (Cheers.)
Mr. LOWE thought it would be for the convenience of
hon. members, and he was sure it would be for his own con-
venience, if he postponed his reply till the house went into
committee.

hear.) The object of the Privy Council had been to create a
system and standard of education, and for this purpose they
had given capitation grants, whereby the school was entitled
to a certain sam of money for every child who attended the
school 176 times in the year. But they had not perhaps taken
as much care of testing the results of the teaching and attend-
ance as they had of the teaching and attendance themselves.
It was quite possible that they might have erred in net
providing machinery for this purpose, and so far they
might have something to answer for, if the reading, writing,
and arithmetic of the scholars were not as good as they
wished. The commissioners brought a fourth charge against
the system, which could not be denied—that it waseone of
great complexity. They had to pay 7,700 masters and
15,300 pupil teachers, in all 23,000 persons, and they did
this by post-office orders directed to the homes of the indi-
viduals. This was not without its advantages, but it led to
enormous expense and labour. Perhaps this was neces-
sary in the beginning of the system, but they might have
been wrong in adhering to it in its full complexity. They
had also to correspond with 6,000 sets of managers of
schools. The commissioners found another fault with the
system, which was that it did not—and probably could not
—cover the whole country ; that there were large districts
in the land to which it had not penetrated. This was also
very true ; but it was a [necessary concomitant of the sys-
tem of giving grants founded on voluntary efforts. These
were the faults which the commissioners found with the
system. He had no means of judging how far they were
right—how far the inspectors were right, or how the con-
flict between them was to be reconciled. Their recom-
mendations, however, were entitled to consideration
from those whose duty and wish it was to make the
department as perfect as possible. Notwithstanding
the fault found with the present system the com-
missioners recommended that it should be continued. He
would not say that in that they expressed the opinion of the
whole country, or that of philosophers and abstract
thinkers, but he believed they expressed the views of those
to whom the existence of general education in this country
was due. If the Government spent £4,800,000 in educating
the people private liberality had spent double that sum, and
he felt persuaded that the question of education would be
regulated by the opinion prevalent among those in whose
hands the system was now. As long as they who paid the
money considered that the present system was the best, so
long would it be continued. (Hear.) He might, therefore,
say at once, that there was no intention on the part of the
Government to infringe on the organic principle of the sys-
tem, he meant the denominational origin, it being founded
on the support of the religious bodies—the system of grants
from a central office in aid of local subscriptions and the
principle of inspection. There was no intention of change in
any of these respects—(hear)—and so far it was the deter-
mination of the Government to continue it unimpaired. The
next point was, how they should remedy the faults pointed
out; and in order to find the remedy he looked into the re-
port itself. The diagnosis of the commissioners was good,
and he wished to know if they supplied a cure. First, as
to the question of expense, they recommended the abolition
of the book grants, and they originated a scheme which
might relieve the grant from the central board. But as it
consisted of a transfer of payment from the central to county
boards, it was a transfer like the late Mr. L'ston's joke,
who used to fine himself by transferring his money from
his right-hand pocket to his left-hand one. (Laughter.)
Next, with a view to remedy the complexity of the present
system, the defects in teaching, and the imperfect develop
ment of the system over the country, they recommended
two kinds of grants, one paid out of the fund of the Go-
vernment, and the other out of the county rate. The fund
at the disposal of the Government for ca/Sitation grants
they proposed should be paid in certain proportions not
easy to be understood, as the children were under a certifi-
floated or under a pupil teacher. That was the plan for the
one. The plan for the other was that a county board should
be appointed, that they should appoint the schoolmaster,
that he was to examine the children, and that a certain
sum of money should be paid for each child who answered
satisfactorily in reading, writing, and arithmetic. It seemed
that that plan had the support of the right hon. gentleman
opposite. [Sir J. Pakington—l did not say so.] Well, it was
asked if the Government would bring in a bill to effect that
object. Now the house would observe that the duty thrown
upon the county board by this plan was purely ministerial.
They had no discretion. The only discretion was in the
schoolmaster, who might make a report favourable or other-
wise, and so influence the amount to be paid out of the
county rate. Having done this the rest was merely
mechanical. The advantage of local control was good, be-
cause it led to economy and closeness of management. But
the proposal he was now considering seemed to retain the
evil and reject the good, for it imposed on the counties the
burden of payment but did not give them the indemnity
of management. (Hear.) Neither, as far as ho could
judge from the tone of the house, was there any disposition
to impose on the county rates any additional burden.
(Hear.) These grants were to be given to all schools, not
merely to the schools in connection with the board but to
ordinary adventure schools. In this respect he thought
they might take a wise lesson from the history of the capi-
tation grants. Those grants were given in the first in-
stance in order to afford assistance to the small rural
schools. But as soon as they were given to these schools
others applied for them, and it soon became a question how
a rural school was to be defined. In the end the Privy
Council settled the matter by giving the capitation grants
' to all schools. The result was that they were now absorbed
by the large schools in towns, which did not want them,
and to which it was never intended that they should be
assigned. (Hear, hear.) He was afraid that the result
would be the same in the present case, and that under the
semblance of giving aid to the poor schools an unneces-
sary augmentation of the public expenditure would take
place. He could not, therefore, acquiesce in the justice of
the proposal that they should give aid to the private ad-
venture schools. (Hear, hear.) He said this indepen-
dently of the objection that they ought not to enter into
competition with private teachers. One of the great
disadvantages of the present system was, that it went
into opposition with itself. They made a statement, and
because other people could not keep up to that standard
they made a second, and thus raised an opposition
to themselves. (Hear, hear.) Then, they were asked to
give grants to the ragged schools. He now turned to that
part of the recommendations which had reference to the
capitation grants to certificated masters and pupil teachers,
and which might be met by a minute of the Privy Council.
He could hardly adopt the proposal made at present. First,
it would break up the system of pupil teachers, and this,
for two reasons: at present the average payment for every
pupil teacher was £l5, and if you only paid him 2s. 6d. for
every 30 children you would pay him less than £4. Now the
striking off of this sum from the salary of the pupil teacher
would be such a blow that he was afraid it would be impos-
sible to carry on the system after it. It would amount to a
revolution of the whole system. (Hear, hear.) The second
reason was that the main difference between the monitors
and the pupil teachers was that the former were employed
by the job, whereas the engageT•ent of the latter extended
over five years. For the first two years the pupil teacher
was of Tittle value, but for the last three years he was a
valuable junior teacher. It was essential that they should
continue to be apprenticed for five years, and it would
destroy their efficiency if they were to be replaced by moni-
tors for a year or so, then to be turned off. With regard to
expense, he hoped to lay before the house in a few days a
minute showing all the reductions which had been made,
and he trusted that something more might be done in that
way without impairing the efficiency of the system. He
wished to call the attention of the house to a point to which
he had never before adverted—he alluded to the position
cecupled by the National Society towards the Privy Coun-
cil. That society was founded for the education of children
in the doctrines of the Church of England. He had no fault
to find with the rules of that society, and the council had
entered into a concordat with the society with full know-
ledge of their terms. It was, however, left to the discretion
of the managers of the schools whether they should adhere
i to those rules or not.

Mr. lIENLEY—The clergyman, not the manager.
Mr. LO WE—The manager or the clergyman, it made no
difference b his argument. The result was that he was
sometimes placed in a very difficult position. He was
asked, as the representative of a public department, for a
grant of public money, on the understanding that the
manager or the clergyman would not enforce the rules of
the society. It was desirable as a matter of economy
that this question should be considered by the National
Society. That society constantly came and asked for a
school for a parish. If he granted the school for the whole
parish he ran the risk that the manager would insist upon
the terms of his trust, and act upon the rules of the society,
and that he should thereby do an injustice to the Dissenters,
by excluding them from the school. He was then applied
to by tie Dissenters for another school ; they made out an
irresistible case, and the consequence was that two miser-
able schools were established where one good school would
have been much cheaper and much more efficient. Untold
mischief and heart-burning had been created by this state
of things, and he hoped his appeal on the subject would be
taken into consideration by the National Society. This was,
however, a delicate subject, and he only alluded to it under
a strong sense of duty. He quoted the opinion of a right
rev. prelate who had lately written upon this topic, that it
• would be well to reserve the teaching of doctrinal points
until the children had arrived at a sufficiently advanced age
for confirmation. Three faults were found with the present
system ; ono was, that the teaching was superficial ;
another was, that the schools were not sufficiently diffused
over the country, and the third was the complexity of the
system. It was thought possible that a system might be
suggested which would remedy all these evils. He would
briefly state the nature of the propositions which the
Government intended to make, and which would be ex-
plained more fully in a minute shortly to be laid on the
table. They proposed to substitute for the present system
of graduated payments, a system of payment in the nature
of a capitation grant. The question would be what ought
to be the conditions of that capitation grant ? They thought
they ought b be satisfied that some adequate results had
been obtained before they made the payments. They there-
fore proposed to give a capitation grant upon the attend-
ances of a child above a certain number, provided that the
school was in a proper state, and there was a certified nuts,
ter in it. They &so proposed to create a four
kind of
certificate, lower than those now us,e(A, available for rural
schools. They toga propcised that the inspectors should ,
examine the children is reading, writing? auk} FOimetic,

and that a certain proportion of each grant should be with-
drawn if the child failed in either of those subjects. He
hoped this plan might have some effect in correcting those
evils of teaching which had been complained of, and that
the attention of each master would in future be given to the
whole of his school. They did not intend to break in upon
the present system of pupil teachers. They would, if these
propositions were adopted, secure some test as to the manner
in which each of the masters had done his duty. Some of
the advantages of the proposed system would be, that the
whole Privy Council organisation would be left intact, and
a great deal of trouble would be saved in its working ; that
the masters would be left much more free of control than
they were at present, and the interference of the Govern-
ment would be minimised, and that the schoolmasters would
have a much stronger motive for exertion than they had at
present. In this way, too, theywould carry out, as far as they
could, the idea of the commissioners' report, free from many
of the objections to the machinery which they had suggested.
They were of opinion that it would be expedient to continue
to select inspectors from the same class of society as at pre-
sent instead of substituting schoolmasters, for the inspection
was one of the evils inseparable from a central system ; but
if it should be carried to too great an extent, the house
would 1 ave the remedy in its own hands. Each denomina •
tion had now inspectors of its own, and the house might at
some future time put a check upon an increase in the num-
ber of inspectors, by enacting that one inspector should be
appointed to all the schools in a district, to whatever deno-
mination they might belong. They had endeavoured to
meet the case as well as they could, and they hoped to be
able to place this department in a state of efficiency as far
as the state of the case would allow. It was their constant
endeavour to render the department as comprehensive, ef-
fectual, and he would add as economical as possible. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. ADDERLEY expressed his satisfaction at the an-
nouncement just made, and said that he was glad to see that
the deficiencies indicated by the Commission were likely to
be remedied by the Government.
Sir G. C. LEWIS pointed out the practical obstacle in
the way of the recommendations of the Commissioners
There would be great difficulty in transferring the educa-
tional charges from the Consolidated Fund to the local
rates. Then under the county and borough rating which
they proposed, it would be impossible to carry out the deno-
minational system, while they would not obtain the advan-
tages of local supervision.

Mr. BAINES thought the people should be as much as
possible thrown on their own resources. He objected to
the capitation system, under which a series of grants would
be made founded upon the necessities of the poorest classes
of the people. He himself knew many schools perfectly
able to support themselves, which at present received
public money, and he denounced such a state of things as
a scandal. As regarded religion, he believed that a
sound religious teaching was a main and essential
element. People who were afraid that the country
would not be educated without Government aid for-
got the good sense of the parents of the country
would not prompt them to give their children a good educa-
tion. He utterly denied the statement of the right hon. gen-
tleman that there were large tracts of country where there
was no education at all. The report of the Commissioners
showed an average of six years' education to every child in
the ceuntry, and that he thought a very satisfactory state
of things. England, in point of fact, stood above many of
those countries in Europe which stood first in reputation.
He denied that such a state of things m as to be ascribed to
grants of public money, for the great part of the work had
been done before Parliament granted a farthing. In the
Sunday-schools, to which not a penny had ever been given,
there were at present 2,415,554 children, and 320,000 volun-
tary teachers. He would ask the house to consider whether
the time had not arrived for abandoning an extravagant and
useless expenditure. It was gratifying to find that as educa-
tion had increased crime had decreased. Tho house ought,
however, to recollect that if the present system went on un-
checked, it would cost, if extended over the whole country,
£2,500,000 a year. He saw no more reason for training
schoolmasters at the public expense than for training law-
yers, doctors, or manufacturers. According to the opinion
of some of the best authorities on the subject, the tendency
of any system of Parliamentary grants was to extend itself
upwards,so that they might expect to see a sys; em which had
been established for the poor gradually extend itself so as to
include the middle classes. It could easily be shown that the
effect of the Parliamentary grant had been, in some cases, to
diminish the amount of voluntary contributions. He re-
gretted to hear that the Government intended to adhere to
the system of pupil teachers. The house ought not to for-
get that a minority of the Commission of Education were
of opinion, after all their inquiries, that the education of
the people might safely be left to themselves. (Hear.) His
conviction was, that popular education ought, like religion
and industry, to be left entirely free. (Hear.)

Mr. HENLEY referred to the rules of the National So-
ciety in explanation of the statement he had made at an
earlier part of the evening. He regretted to hear the state-
ment which the right hon. gentleman had made that night,
and was afraid it would lead to great incumbrance if not to
heartburnings. No member of that society could forget
that the right hon. gentleman had not only endeavoured to
force into Church schools trustees who were not Church-
men, but had argued ex debit() justitio, that wherever there
was a conscience clause they were bound to admit into the
trust a Dissenter.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE declined to commit himself by the
expression of any opinion with respect to the plans of the
Government until the minutes of the Committee of the
Privy Council were before the house. He suggested that
all minutes which might involve the expenditure of money
should be laid before the Treasury for its sanction, before
it was acted upon by the education department.

Mr. WHALLEY proposed that the sum of £77,000 for
capitation grants be reduced by a sum of £12,000, being
the amount of the proposed increase for the present year
under that head.

Mr. HENNESSY said that if it were the object of the
hon. member to put down the Catholic schools, he had
taken a course which would not carry out his object, because
the capitation grant was paid equally to all classes.
The ameadment was withdrawn, and the vote was
agreed to.

A sum of £77,484 was next proposed for the Department
of Science and Art.

Mr. LOWE stated that this vote ineluded the sum of
£6,000 for the Royal Dublin Society, and he proposed that
the house should agree to this vote, but that the money
should be retained in the hands of the Government until
some arrangements were made with that society.
Lord W. GRAHAM moved the omission from the vote
of the sum of £15,009 for the new building proposed to be
erected at South Kensington. The plan of Captain Fowkc
would involve two very expensive frontages and the addi-
tion of a very extensive range of buildings. He thought
that the Government was not justified in inducing the com-
mittee to the commencement of this very expensive and
ornamental frontage of these schools and residences.

Mr. LOWE explained that the Government had not
adopted the plans proposed by Capt. Fowke.

The amendment was withdrawn and the vote agreed to.
A sum of £185,000 was next proposed, being the re-
mainder of the vcte for public education in Ireland.
Mr. CARDWELL stated that the entire vote was
£285,000, and showed an increase of £14,000 over the
amount asked last year, the increase being made up prin.
cipalfl, of the expense of normal schools, and the increased
payment to teachers. For this sum 5,623 schools were
supported, the number of scholars borne on the books
was over 800,000, and the average daily attendance was
262,000, There had been a slight falling off in the num-
ber of pupils. This was due, to a great extent, to the
extreme severity and inclemency of the season, during
the last winter, which had prevented the attendance of many
of the pupils. The board, as new constituted, consisted of
six members of the Established Church, of four Presby-
terians, being 10 Protestants, and 10 Roman Catholics. He
hoped that all the difficulties had now.been surmounted, and
that the committee would grant the vote which he.now
asked for. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BUTT said that as many members were anxious to
address the committee on this question, he should move
that the chairman report progress. (Cries of "go on.")
After alluding to the increase which had taken place in the
vote, he asserted that matters had been taken up by the
board which did not come under the head of education. His
wish was to have an opportunity of discussing the entire
question at a reasonable hour of the night.
Mr. CARDWELL would give the hon. gentleman all
the information in his power, but he hoped that the com-
mittee would pass this vote to-night.
Mr. LONGFIELD thought that the discussion should
be adjourned, as most of their time had that night been
occupied in discussing the vote for England. The present
system was one forced on the people of Ireland, which they
were compelled to adopt. It was equally distasteful to Pro •
testants as to Roman Catholics.

After some futher conversation, the house resumed, and
progress was reported.
SALMON AND TROUT FISHERIES BILL.

The house then went into committe on this bill.
The first 5 clauses were agreed to.
On clause 6,
Colonel FRENCH said it was now half-past one o'clock,
and they had passed only 5 clauses out of 136. Ile wished
to know how long they meant to go on.
Mr. CLIVE hoped the committee would consent to pass
some few more clauses.
Clauses 6 to 14 inclusive were ordered, as amended, to
stand part of the bill.
On clause 12, prohibiting the catching of salmon fry by
rod and line, in rivers and streams,
Mr. GARNETT proposed from the word "destroy" to
insert the words " except by rod and line." If the clause
were allowed to remain as it was now framed, they would
have their rivers and streams swarming with those salman
and other small fry.
Some discussion ensued, of rather an amusing
took part,
in
which Colonel Pennant and other hon. members o
and in which Mr. Clive objected ti the amendment.
The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment, ,
bTajority .•...............................
_8035
Against it ... ...... ................ 45
Clause 12 was then ordered to stand part of the bill; as
were clauses 13 to 18 inclusive.
On clause 19,
Inrcl
a" mooed an amendment to leave out

" Friday" and insert " Saturday," the object of the amend-
ment being to abridge the time of closing the rivers against
fishing.
The committee divided and the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority —B7
(The result of this division, which took place at a quarter
past two o'clock, in a numerously attended house, was re-
ceived withloud cries of " Hear, hear," indicating the deep
interest which the house feels in the preservation of salmon
fry and trout.)

The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the houso
resumed.

SUPPLY—REPORT.
The report on Supply was brought up and agreed to.
QUEENSLAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
This bill was read a third and passed.
CONJUGAL RIGHTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was read a second time ; as was also the Trus'
teas (Scotland) Bill.
LANDLORD AND TENANT LAW AMENDMENT

(IRELAND) ACT PROCEEDINGS BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
The White Herring Fishery (Scotland) Bill, as amended,
was considered.
The other orders on the paper were disposed of, and the
houso adjourned at a quarter past three o'clock.