The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-05 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house resolved itself into a committee of supply.
Sir M. FARQUHAR resumed the discussion on the state

of the Serpentine, and quoted the report of Mr. Page, show-
ing the exceedingly noisome state of the water at different
periods. It had been complained of many times during the
last 11 years, the inhabitants of Brompton having met to
petition the house respecting it, under the presidency of
Lord Harrowby. Nothing, however, was done until the
time of Lord Llanover, who begun with St. James's-park.
He wanted to know why a plan which had been found
successful in St. James's ornamental water should not be
tried in the Serpentine. He trusted that his right hon.
friend the First Commissioner of Works would have moral
courage sufficient to find a remedy for the evil.
Sir J. SHELLEY was understood to complain that the
house had not as yet had an opportunity of reading Mr.
Hawksley's report upon which Government were about to
act. He thought it only reasonable that they should have
that report before they agreed to the vote.
Sir M. PETO admitted that he had seen Mr. Hawksley's
report. He believed that the plan of Mr. Hawksley would
be effectual ; and that being the case, he could not recom-
mend emptying the water, and the carrying out of a similar
plan to that adopted in St. James's-park, which would cost
four times £17,000. With regard to the Ranelagh sewer,
Mr. Hawksley's plan dealt with that also, although the
evil could not be remedied perfectly until the main drainage
plan was carried out.
Mr. CONINGHAM did not believe the plan would be
effectual, because it did not separate the sewage from the
rainfall.

Mr. WILLIAMS was in favour of Mr. Hawksley's plan,
which they were informed on that gentleman's authority
would purify the water.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH did not believe that any plan would
be effectual which did not cut off the influx of foul water
and provide for a supply of pure water.
Mr. ALCOCK was convinced that the Serpentine was
perfectly pestiferous, and it was the duty of the Commis-
sioners of Works to take measures to prevent the danger to
health which its present state occasioned.
Mr. FITZROY explained the difficulties which would be
attendant upon the adoption of the same plan as that which
was carried out in St. James's-park—the great objection
being that a sufficient supply of water could not be obtained
to fill the basin if the water was once pumped out. Mr.
Hawksley, in his report, drew attention to this, and showed
that if all the water were drawn off there was no source from
which a supply 0f60,000,000 gallons which would be required
could be obtained without an enormous expense, the bed of
the Serpentine being 50 feet above the level of the Thames,
even if the water from that source could be used, and a
water supply by means of wells to fill an area of 40 acres
being impracticable both on account of the expense and the
comparative smallness of the quantity obtainable. It ap-
peared from Mr. Page's report that he provided for the
diversion of the sewage, and without such diversion the
plan would present no great advantages; but some hon.
gentlemen seemed to suppose that the flow of sewage into
the Serpentine was continuous, but that was not the case.
There were two sewers, which, under ordinary circum-
stances, carried it off, and it was only on rare occasions,
when a vast volume of water was washed down and the
sewers overflowed that the sewage found its way into the
Serpentine. Under Mr. Hawksley's scheme when these
overflows took place—which probably was once or twice a
year—the sewage would to a certain extent corrupt the
water, but that would not affect the scheme, for the putres-
cent matter jwould be destroyed by passing through the
iron pipes in a certain chemical condition, and the water
would be returned pure. He did not think under all cir-
cumstances that any man in his position would be justified
in asking the house to spend £60,000 or £70,000 for the
purification of this sheet of water, when he had another
plan before him, by which he was assured lon the highest
engineering authority the work could be as effectually done
for one quarter of the amount. If this vote was agreed to by
next spring the work would be completed, and they would
have in the Serpentine as bright and as beautiful a lake as
they could desire. (Hear.)
Sir J. SHELLEY complained that they were called upon
to adopt this scheme by surprise, it having been only brought
to their notice at 20 minutes to four that day. At least they
ought to have an opportunity of seeing the report of Mr.
Hawksley.
Mr. E. JAMES considered that the Chief Commissioner
was a little unfairly dealt with in this matter. The right
hon. gentleman had consulted an eminent hydraulic engi-
neer and had taken the best advice, and there was no reason
for supposing that the scheme proposed would not be effec-
tual. If it was postponed until the house agreed to some
plan, considering the conflict of opinion that prevailed, the
Serpentine would never be purified.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH understood that Mr. Hawksley pro-
posed to take the water from the lower end of the Serpen-
tine and pump it up to the upper end, filtering it in its pro-
gress ; but the right hon. gentleman assumed that the sew-
age could be treated in the same manner, and with the same
result, which he (Mr. Griffith) dill not think Mr. Hawasley
contemplated.
The committee divided, when the numbers were—
For the vote 97
Against it
• Majority
The vote was accordingly agreed to.
On a vote of £12,000 for repairing the Crinan Canal being
proposed,
Col. FRENCH complained of the charge which this and
the Caledonian Canal had entailed on the public. Originally
the Crinan Canal was a private speculation, but it having
incurred a debt of £5,000, and the parties being unable to
carry it on, it came into the hands of the Government, which
expended £lB,OOO upon it, and after all the receipts were not
sufficient to pay its current expenses. He would suggest,
whether it would not be better to get rid of these canals,
and hand them over to private parties who would keep them
up, if it was worth while to do so. He did not intend to
oppose the vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought it high time for the house to
make a stand against this outlay. The profit upon the
Crinan Canal last year was £BB, but on the Caledonian
Canal there was a loss of £l,BOO. Altogether £1,400,000
had been expended upon these two canals, and they did not
pay current expenses.
Mr. LAING said the explanation of the vote was short
and simple. An extraordinary flood having carried away a
portion of the works of the old canal, the late Government
thought it advisable to restore them, and as the matter was
urgent, £6,000 was paid out of the civil contingencies. He
could only say that if, as had been suggested, any private
company would take the canal into their hands, the Go-
vernment would not object.
Mr. LOCK regretted that the hon. member for Stirling-
shire was not in his place, and he invariably said that Scot-
land never had any grant of rublic money. This was a vote
exclusively for Scotland. The hon. member in question had
told the house that the vote for purifying the Thames was
not a national object, and that the metropolis should raise
rates for that purpose. He (Mr. Locke) did not see why
on the same principle Scotland should not pay for this
exclusively Scotch object.
Mr. LINDSAY said that there ought to be some principle
laid down on which public money was voted. He knew
something of the canal, and he thought no reason had been
given for the vote. It had never paid its expenses, and he
did not see why £12,000 should be spent on a concern which
would always fie a loss.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the principle on which the vote was founded was simple.
He could understand that gentlemen might criticise the
practice of annual payments, which the house was called
on to make, and be anxious to get some of these burdens off
the public. But that was not the question now. The
Crinan Canal did not require an annual vote, but the pre-
sent vote was for the purpose of repairing the effect of a
sudden accident, and the question was, whether the house
would allow the traffic of the canal to be stopped, and the
canal itself to go to ruin, for want of timely reparation.
The late Government would have been inexcusable if they
had not ordered the repairs, which, although they had done
so without the authority of the house, was a case which
did not admit of delay.
Mr. BRADY said that the best reason for objecting to
the vote was to be found in the following lines of the report
of the engineer :—" It has been impossible to trace the fai-
lure to any more immediate cause than the original imper-
fection of the embankment."

Mr. BLACK said that an extravagant sum had been
laid out on the Caledonian Canal fifty or sixty years
ago. (" No, no.") It was done at a time when the
Scotch members were more at the beck of the Trea.
sury than they were now, and were able to get jobs
done which they could not now. (Laughter.) If you
compared the votes of money for England and
Ireland with those for Scotland, it would be found
that the latter did not get nearly what it ought
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) This canal was not the pro-
perty of Scotland but of the nation, and it ought not to, be
allowed to go to ruin for want of repairs.
Mr. LAING said that the embankment in question was
that of the reservoir and not of the canal. Mr. Walker, the
engineer, stated that £12,000 would restore the reservoir
and the canal as it was before. The canal was a great con-
venience for a large district of Scotland; and although it
was only adapted for small steamers, yet if it could be en-
larged so as to admit the passage of large steamers, it would
be a still greater convenience.

Mr. FINLAY said the canal was not only useful as a pas-
sage but as a harbour of refuge for small vessels, which
would otherwise have to go round the Mull of Galloway,
which was the uttermost point of Scotland.
Mr. JAMES hoped the house would not agree to the vote.
There was no analogy between this vote and that for the Ser-
pentine, which latter was a national object, whereas the
other levied large tolls on every vessel and passenger that
used it. These over-ruling accidents, like the one on which
the present vote waa sought, would be constantly occurring
if companies were to look for public grants to repair them.
The canal was a water highway which shortened the dis-
tance between Loch Foyne and the Caledonian Canal, and
_you never heard of any commissioners of highways coming
to the house for public grants.
Mr. SMOLLETT, as member for a neighbouring county
to that represented by the hon. member for Stirlingahire,
although generally agreeing with him in opposing public
expenditure, should vote for this grant.

The committee divided—
For the vote
Against
Majmity
THE SUMTARINE CABLE.
The next vote was one of £135,000 to defray the expense
of constructing a submarine cable for telegraphic column-
nication between England and Gibraltar.

. 40
. -47

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER took occa-
sion to state the position in reference to the vote whiohthc
present Government occupied. When theyhad assumed the
nine of office, they found that arrangements had been en-
tered into by their predecessors with a house in London, for
the manufacture of a cable 1,200 miles long, which was to
extend from Falmouth to Gibraltar, The actual cost of the
cable was fixed at 4115 NA, io that the committee would
see that the great bulk of the sum which was asked for the
purpose in question was to meet a charge which had been
incurred in the case of a contract Which had been already
concluded. He hati tauohcd upon the question when he had
prepeso orp uomination of the committee on packet and
telef;raphic contracts, and he was of opinion that it was,

upon the whole, convenient that it should be dealt with as -
a portion of that subject. As this contract had been entered
into it was the duty of Government to take the measures
which would be required in order to make good the article
being manufactured, and likewise in order to prepare the
way to make future use of it. For that purpose he asked
for £20,000 at present, reckoning that that sum would de-
fray any charge which would arise between the present
time and the next meeting of Parliament, when, if neces-
sary, he would have the opportunity of making another
application. He proposed to apply • the money to
make experiments with regard to the peculiar con-
struction of the envelope of the cable. The com-
mittee was aware of the difficulties in laying deep
sea cables, and how much depended on the weight, and
therefore on the materials of which the envelope was com-
posed. Experiments would require to be made, and the
Government also desired to lay out a certain sum of money
with a view to the protection of the cable, that the whole
winter might not pass without commencing making the
envelope. The committee would understand two things ;
first, that there was no wish to keep the matter out of the
jurisdiction of the committee which had been appointed;
and, secondly, that it was in no degree intended to foreclose
the question whether it was more expedient to proceed to
lay down cables by the agency of the Government on its
own account, or to make arrangements with some compe-
tent and responsible company to undertake it. (Hear,
hear.) For his own part, he did not hesitate to say that
he had the strongest prepossession against the operation
being undertaken by Government, and in favour of others
doing it. (Hear, hear.) On the whole, he thought it
would be found a very useful and important national enter-
prise, and he hoped the committee would see that the field
of discussion was not a very wide one, and would vote the
sum which he now asked. (Year, hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the right hon. gentleman
had made out a very clear case why the vote ought to be
withdrawn, and the question left entirely to the committee
which had been appointed.
Mr. HANKEY said that every member must recollect
the extreme anxiety which prevailed in the last Parlia-
ment to have a telegraphic communication with Gibraltar.
Considering our peculiar situation in the Mediterranean,
and that it was of the utmost national importance in the
event of a war with France, and considering that as a com-
mercial speculation it never could pay, although he was un-
willing to sanction any anticipation of the decision of the
house with regard to the expenditure of money, he thought
that if ever an exception could be made out it was in this .
case. (Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
THE COPPER COINAGE.
Upon a vote of £50,000 for copper coinage,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
afraid it would be necessary for him to make a short state-
ment to the committee on the subject, but it was one which
he had great confidence would be satisfactory. He had the
greatest pleasure in proposing this vote, which he ought to
tell the committee would be £lO,OOO instead of £50,000. It
was immaterial which sum it was, as the profit to be derived
would more than cover the expense, and there was no real
charge connected with it. The estimate was reduced, be-
cause at first it was thought that in order to carry on ope-
rations with energy and rapidity it was desirable to pur-
chase presses and supply them to the contractors, which, on
further inquiry, was found not to be necessary. The com-
mittee had, without doubt, observed when they had occa-
sion to handle the copper coin of the country that a Feat
deal of it was in a very bad condition. He had a specimen
of one of her Majesty's pennies, and there appeared round
the edges "Lloyd's Weekly Newsipiper, post free," and on
the ether side some equally interesting announcement. A
great deal of the copper coinage had been investigated, and
' the result was that a large portion of it was found to be
very old. Rather more than one-fifth was of dates be-
tween 1797 and 1805. it varied in weight, and although
the practical inconvenience was not great, because the
public were familiar with it, yet if an old and a new penny
were shown to persons unacquainted with them, no one
would ever dream that they represented the same value.
The old penny was worth nearly half as much again
as the new one. The old penny was coined at the
rate of 16 to the pound, and the lightest of the new
was 26 to the pound. Only 15 per cent. of the cop-
per coinage was since 1852. The whole value of the
copper coinage was £BOO,OOO and the quantity of copper was
3,530 tons. Taking the copper at £lO7 10s. per ton, the
actual value was only £379,000, so that the copper coin was
a pure token, the intrinsic value being less than one-half
the nominal or apparent value. In order to ascertain the
state of the copper coinage a considerable quantity had been
examined in the large towns. The copper coinage of towns
was better than that of the country, because old coins al-
ways lingered longer in the rural districts. The result of
the investigation in London, Birmingham, and other large
towns showed that about one-third of the whole was below
' its legal state, and ought t 6 be withdrawn. A part of it was
counterfeit, another part foreign coins, and another injured
battered, and inscribed, according to the fancy of individuals
' such as he had stated. The result was that one-third re-
quired renewal. If it were renewed such as it now was he
should be obliged to ask for a vote of £40,000, and that vote
would not be replaced, but would be an expenditure out and
out. It would, of course, be submitted to cheerfully enough
if the copper coinage did not admit of any improvement but
he believed it was capable of great improvement. It was
exceedingly heavy, and the metal was not very agreeable
handling. It communicated a smell, and it was very easy
to substitute a metal more convenient. It would be an ad-
mirable practice to follow in the beat of our continental
neighbours. Gentlemen would recollect what was the
state of the old copper coinage of France. It was much
the same as our own. The coins had almost lost all signs
of any effigy, and were rudely shaped lumps of metal.
Within the last few years it had been called in and a bronze
metal substituted. He held in his hand a French penny,
which was a very little larger than an English halfpenny.
It was very convenient, very nice in appearance, and a
most agreeable coin to handle. It was a much more de-
sirable coin than ours, and the result of the operation, as
he was informed, had been that the French had paid for the
expense of converting the coin, and realised from the re-
duction of weight a profit not far short of £500,000. No
such profit could be expected in this country, the quantity
of copper coinage not being so great. But relative to
its extent there was no reason why the operation should not
' leave a profit analogous to that obtained in France. The
new copper coinage would not affect any question o f the
currency or computation; it would leave all such matters
exactly as they were ; Ror would it have 'anything to do
with the decimal system. If we only substituted for the
present coins pieces harder, more convenient, and more
agreeable, he did not doubt the public would have equal
confidence in them. The effect of improving the copper
coinage will be to produce a largely increased demand for it.
In Paris the increase in the demand after the new coins
were issued was 60 per cent. This experience was very
encouraging, as a larger demand would be attended by in -
creased profit. The metal proposed to be used for the new
coins was bronze; it contained four parts of tin and one
part of zinc to 95 parts of copper, which was increased in
hardness by the alloy- In reference to this point he should
mention that there was a bill passing through the house,
extending the penalties for forging the copper coinage to
forging coins-of the mixed metal. There was some übt
whether they were incurred, by the offence, and as a pre-
caution it had been thought batter to introduce the bill.
The new coins would be much lighter than those in present
use ; the change of metal would enable them to be made
much thinner in proportion to their superficies, and their
intrinsic value would not be more than half that of the pre-
sent coins. The quantity of copper now coined into 26 of the
old pence would make 45 of the new ones. If the 3,500 tons
of the old copper were called in and recoined, the profit
would be about £92,000 ; but if there was an increased de-
mand for the new coin to the amount of 25 or 30per cent., that
would leave a considerable profit on the operation. One
great advantage of the new coin would be its superior
durability. The use of bronze was not new to the Mint;
the metal had been tried for coinage in Canada and Nova,
Scotia, and the new issue here would resemble the small
coinage adopted in those colonies. He hoped the ce mittee would make no difficulty in agreeing to the emee'mei the sum required for the preliminary expenses of "e change.
Mr. GLYN had during the past year heard
plaints of a deficiency in the copper coinage " many com-
In issuing the new pieces he hoped the P of the country.
afford facilities for circulating them er eovernment would
Mr. HANKEY asked whether 1.1 .sally inevery district.
coined at the Mint, or by con rue new copper would be
The CHANCELLOR of trect at Birmingham _
to execute a certain the EXCHEQUER proposed
the rest by contract, Pection of the work at the Mint and
'probably at Birmingham. Mr. D. Grupe,
ITH asked whether the new coinage
would not invcive the question of the decimal system
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER believed
there was very little life left in the scheme of a decimal
coinage ; but he did not propose to enter in the slightest
degree into that question. The new pennies would hold
precisely the same place in the coinage as the old ; if the
Legislature thought fit, it could as well decimalise our
coinage with the new issue of copper, as with the pieces
now in circulation.
Mr. HUBBARD observed, if the decimal system should
be hereafter adopted the whole of this new copper coinage
would have to pass through the Mint again, as it would be
impossible to stamp the pieces with a new designation of
value. In accepting the new coinage the house accepted
the condemnation of the decimal system.
Mr. AYRTON thought, on the contrary, that the new
coinage would rather facilitate the change to a decimal
system than impede it. The pieces would be exceedingly
light, and hereafter five might be coined instead of four, but
ho hoped the size of the farthing would not be reduced.
The vote was then agreed to.
HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
On the vote of £174,000 for Harbours of Refuge.
Mr. LINDSAY complained of the expense of the works
at Dover. If the vote was to complete the present contract
he would not object to it, because it was useful and con-
venient. The scheme, however, was as a whole gigantic,
and if entirely completed the expense would be enormous.
If the harbour at Alderney
was meant as a harbour of de-
fence, he would not offer any opinion uponit, but he had no
hesitation in saying that, as a harbour of refuge, it would be
useless. In case of war they would require 8,000 men to
hold it, and those men would be infinitely more valPable
elsewhere. Why should they spend so large a sum of 'money
on a place so near to France and so far from this emu:au
Mr. LAING said that at Dover they only !datended to
complete the present contract. With regard to Alderney
XBOO,OOO out of X 1,300,000 was already sperq. He was un-
able to offer any opinion on the works in . military point of
view.
Sir MORTON PETO said there appeared to have been
various alterations in the works, Which were most injurious.
Sir C. 'WOOD said the alterations complained of arose
from the necessity of increasing the size of the harbour.
Captain L. VERNON said these works at Alde would enable them to watch and overlook the harbour Cherbourg. They were, therefore, most valuable.
The vote was thee agreed to.
On the vote of 450,000 for Civil contingencies,
Mr. WISE said he considered this vote mere pocket-
money for the gentlemen employed at the Treasury. He
suggested that in future there should be a list of the items
of the outstanding advances. There was an item of £2,899
for fees on conferring titles of dignity, but he thought all
„.
titles ought to be given free of charge. 1' nd he should like to
know who got those fees. A largo portion of this vote went
to the diplomatic service, and such expenditure ought to be
checked. He further objected that these chargestb were
spread over several years. It was difficult to keep e. ex-
penditure under ono head. He objected to the expenditure
for the Marquis of Bath's visit to Lisbon, which was ut-
terly useless when they had a Minister there.
Mr. HUTT objected to the sum of £3,300 claims for
compensation in the Admiralty Court.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE
tQUER, refeng
a some remarks made by Mr. Wise, said that the portion
of the expenditure which passed through his hands, with
reference to his visit to the lonian Islands,vas £l,lOO. He
hoped that the time would soon arrive
when the reports
which he sent home from the lonianlslands could be made
Ildglle, and he took that opportunity of tendering his thanks to
the house for the gonfreoromusmfackrbi forbearance which it had mani-
fested in abstaining making inquiries relative to the
object and result of his mission to the lonian Islands.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL gave some explanation
relative to the expenditure for compensationrit to the proctors
who had practised in the Court of Admie
After a short conversation, in which Sd.S. Northcote,

• -
the Attorney-General, Mr. Disraeli, and
_Mr. Laing took
part,
The vote was then agreed to.
The last vote in supply, namely, £162,460 for the disem-
bodied militia was then agreed to, and Mr. MASSEY put
the question, that he report progress and leave the chair,
amidst general cheering.
PORTS OF DONAGHADEE AND PORTPATRICK.
On the order of the day being read for going into com-
mittee of wamand means,
General UPTON gave notice that, next session, he would
move for a committee to inquire as to the expediency of
maintaining these two ports as packet stations.
Mr. WILLIAMS was happy to hear that the hon. and
gallant member intended, to call attention to this subject,
because twelve years ago they had been told that the sum
then voted would be the last asked for.
Mr. VANCE reminded the house that it was of great
importance that every facility should be given for the com-
munication between Ireland and Scotland.
After a few words from Sir A. AGNEW and Colonel
DUNNE, the house went into committee of

WAYS AND MEANS,
and £250,156 being the surplus of ways and means granted
for the preceding year, and £11,984,362 out of the Consoli-
dated Fund having been granted to her Majesty, the
Chairman reported progress, and the houso resumed.

COINAGE BILL. -----
This bill passed through committee, and the house re.
sumed.

• MILITIA LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time, and ordered to be corn.
mitted.

STAMP DITTIES BILL.
On the motion, that the house resolve itself into commit
tee on this bill,

Mr. SELTOIN gave notice that he would, in commit-
tee, move the following clause :—" That so much of the
Act of 55th Geo. HI., e, 184, and the schedule thereto, as
imposes probate and inventory duty where the estate and
effects are of the value of £1,000,000 and upwards shall be
repealed; and in lieu thereof, in all cases where the estate
and effects for or in respect of which any probate, letters of
administration, or confirmation, shall be granted or ex-
pended, or whereof any inventory shall be exhibited or re-
corded, shall be of the value of £1,000,000 and upwards,
there shall be levied and paid to her Majesty the following
duties :—For every £lOO,OOO of the whole value of such
estate, or any fractional part of £lOO,OOO, the sum of £1,500
in cases of testacy, and the sum of £2,250 in cases of in-
testacy."

Mr. LAING thought the clause could not be introduced
into the bill to-night, and suggested that it be postponed
till to-morrow (this day).
The house then went into committee on the bill, which,
as amended, passed through that stage, and the house re-
sumed. •

DUBLIN POLICE BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
The clauses were all agreed to and the house resumed.
PROBATE AND LETTERS OF ADMINISTRA

TION (IRELAND) BILL.
The house next went into committee on this bill, when
the various clauses were agreed to.
POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS) LAW

AMENDMENT BILL.
The house having proceeded to consider the amendments
made in this bill, two new clauses were added, and the
amendments were agreed to.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENTS BILL.

The house then went into committee on the Turnpike
Trusts Arrangements Bill.
Mr. ALCOCK opposed the bill the object of which, he
observed, was simply to legalise 'the continuance of tolls
on hundreds of miles of road in this country where there
was no debt at all.

Sir G. C. LEWIS explained that it was the interference
of the Secretary of State in exempting trusts from the An-
nual Continuance Act, that was first complained of. Only
130 trusts were in the fortunate condition described by the
hon. gentleman, and solvent trusts would not be interfered
with.

The bill then passed through committee, the house re-
sumed, and it was reported without amendments.
CHIEF SUPERINTENDENT (CHINA) BILL.
This bill passed through committee, as did also the
North-Western Territories (British America) Bill, and the
Speaker of the Legislative Council (Canada) Bill, and the
house resumed.