The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-04 00:00:00

Party in this house, a very powerful party, representing very.
different interests, a party whose iuterests and whose honour
aught to bo very clear to the House of Commons. By that
Proposition -they were placed in a very difficult position, for
a Part of thascheme of the right hon. gentleman was the im-
Petition of a succession duty on real property. (Hear.) I
Irish to state the case fairly to the right hon. gentleman the
'leather for Oxford University. Ido not wish to have a dis-
enselon upon the merits and demerits of the question now. I
7ell admit that the right hon. gentleman brought the matter
erward fairly, and was quite ready to defend the measure;
olit allow me to observe that the position of the Minister of
the day to those on whom the tax was imposed was intimately
son fleeted with the settlement of the income tax. (Hear.)
o -Qat succeselon duty was greatly opposed in this house; some
f the prepositions connected with it were rejected, some
Were carried binarrow•mejorities, but ultimately themeastnii;ee
/4's cariied by the votes of those who supported it, on
efaith of the right hon. gentleman's promise that tho incona,
. te il•
nPosed in 1853 should cease in 1860; that was the consi-
st upon which they had supported the concession.d. N
the plans ofthe right hon. gentleman had not been trseduarbeeedd
se war two years ago, we should have been
fifseessuient ; but owing to that. circumstance,'' athylonstgehiaentreeriesineteed
it
real property had not enjoyed the benefit of . ]need
7sement. Let it be remembered therefore that holdeiso
• _"rollert were being taxed to the amount of two millions
ae‘• r • Without receiving that equivalent to which they had a
W 'When you disturb the settlement of 1853, observe
/ore a host of various and embarrassing questions in finance
With Will raise. You will hive the question of how you are to
precarious and settled incomes; and you will have
, th the case where entire exemption is claimed—a
Which I formerly attempted to settle ; and you will have
e,7 • 111 n and bitter complaint against the burden of taxation
Nant the holders' of real property, who, in addition to that
ceh°Mttell, have imposed up in them a succession duty. (Hear,
e•
•) You will thus have a series of questions which will
Arvass any Minister—the solution of which you will find
'"uche_eeltlt, if not impossible. (Cheers.) I think that the pro-
rt ;7 and income tax places within the reach of the Govern-
thin
those great resources which it possesses, and which,
be.. Ira are in some degree the cause of the dangerous policy
jaich they pursue ; resources applied in a way not to be de-
which and which I consider ought net to be granted.
"lear) 1 understood from the declarations of those officially
17inected with eher Majesty's Government, some 'in high
se, some in line not sufficiently high—(a laugh)—that it
st_et the iateution of the Government to insist on levying
Lae whale of the revenue at present derivable from this
ought h of revenue; but I think that upon that subject there
to be no doubt,
al the present (Hear, hear.) I highly disapprove
agitation of the public mind on the subject of
!he iicome tax being allowed to continue. I highly object
to the question being Postponed. I think it impolitic that
Ira Should be called upon to wait a
.month, or perhaps
thiblvwc months, financial before her Majesty's Ministers lay bef.ore us.n
' cin. %. statement. Precedents are not wanting i
the "14027 for moving the house at an early period of
en„.leeelon oil subjects of finance, and it is a proper and
The committee of supply always
PkTc--";eidb4lesittinalhat nfecnirse.
ways'and means, and the Chancellor of the
ocenrrioller,_makes hit demands on the House of Commons
alf ir w the Wants and requirements of the country.
ear. hear But, lioe „,.._ .e air, I protest,
ramßl in posi for my part, that we are
readily to stop the supplie! if we
(Hear, hear.) It is, sir,
Zeit for the finaticialt statement.
• of itla ePini,_..on, of the Utmost importance, in the present state
upon /atone mind, that we should come to an early decision
it ,-4 this subject. (Heel-, hear.) It is due to the country,
kr due to ourselves, and I think it is still more due to the
--iehltr3a (Cheers.) Let the Ministry know what the opi-
ith "II q the country is, and then they will know how to shape
te-eu. course, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer can devise
ti"° means necessary for, the public, necessities. (Cheers.) I
"erstand that ome notic ha been given by some on.
tentleman on this subject. I think the matter a most h
im-
-Irtant ono, and that it should be brought forward by some
(Vs.lle speaks the opinion of a large party in this house.
ae -era.) I think that the question ought to beibrought for-
t_ I'l earlY, though I think it would be an unworthy and an
:satisfactory mode of dealing with it, to take it up in the
I,Y of Moving an amendment to the Address. I think an
,j(;-,,P4'1114,itY for its discussion ought to be given by her Ma-
h Y's Ministers. I should be perfectly willing if some other
t.L'ue gentlernaa who sits near me would have undertaken the
7k hut, as it has been thought fit that I should take upon
leeuhe duty, I shall seek the opinion of the house upon the
t° 'Jed, and I sball move for a committee of the whole house
::consider resolutions, of which I do not bind myself now
restate the exact words, but which will be to the following
bee
'
he 2t —To express the opinion of this house that taxes which
on e n levied in time of war, for the purpose of carrying
that shall only be levied or
,a particular period ; and
Me t"'e• is the opinion of this house that the settle-
tie4 4' 1853 shall, in spirit, bo adhered to. I can-
but observe, sir, that if these resolutions be carried
it 4411 effect some advantageous changes in the financial
ellsgernents of the country, and shall give a beneficial
'tne to its interests. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think it is
tart for me to express my opinion, that it is not advisable
Englandshouldbecome a great military nation. (Cheers.)
se, ars Prepared to vote all ways and means that are neces-
e .‘ te support an effective army, but lam not in favour of
~,'l,,sw military system. I am not afraid of expressing the
It° the opinion, that a large st tuding army is opposed
1•0 the liberties of aSt Ito. (Cheers.) I know that we must
tbaave troops, and we have an army of which, I think every
een hae reason to be proud. I wish to see that army, main-
ee'ned in full ethciescy, and I would have the militia placed
4,' a more effective footing. (Cheers.) It is objected that a
i."‘l'd ll ing ary cannot be dangerous iu these days because it
t; tder the mcontrol of Parliament, but I prefer seeing the
alus under the control of her Majesty than under the direo-
`oll of the Parliament of England. There is danger in an
Ny whether disciplined or undisciplined. If undisciplined
if
• will become abandoned in its habits ; if disciplined, it may
become an instrument for the oppression of the State. (Hear,
heal,) I care not what may be the form of government
Whether Royal, Imperial, or Republican. Wherever there
e'tre 500.000 in a State highly disciplined, let a man
i'esve authority Over them, and that mends dictator. I hope
`'ell, sir, that neither the glory of the late war, nor that of
tither wars in which we have been engaged—perhaps more
meatuewill lead the people of this country to sanction
inilit • to hi' b - t (Cheers.) I entertain the
conviction aiy es.a IS JD( il s
peo-
ple' the that the more you reduce the burdens of the peo-
greater will be the resources that you find placed at
/Our disposal. I shall not on the present occasion ask the
Pe "se to express their opinion on the topic to which these
olutions refer, but shall give my support to the huinble
'‘ddrese to our gracious Queen. (The right hon. gentleman
Rat clown amid loud cheering.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if the
advice of the right lion, gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli)
'ail been followed in the composition of the gracious Speech
Which has been read to the house, and if it contained a
Pare,— 1
4 e‘epn recommending
the. house to enter upon a remis-
Flu' of taxation, and an adjustment of. the burdens of the
1741° to the state of peace which we had now happily reached,
e-e
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) feared they should have
they
told that such a general assurance was of no value ; that
'lle3' might have assumed it as a matter of course. It had not
teen
usual to make such specific Atatements as the right hon.
Reetlernau desired in Speeches from the Throne. It had been
left
b , to the discretion of the house when the estimates liad
„e-s framed, with due regard to public necessities, to decide
;4 the ways and means necessary. He would confine himself
curic; the observations of the right hon. gentleman on the subject
e income-tar, without following him in his wide digres-
'lll into European politics. (Hear, bear.) He protested
"t7,e4,19et hon. members imputing to the Government such in-
itaeuons as had been adverted to by the preceding speaker
du 7 certainly had no design to establish a standing army,
t:i.,ngerous to the liberties of the people. He must defer en-
inii Into the details on the subject of the army and navy
'4til
b,„_ the period when the question would come before the
i euee in the way of regular business, when it would be his
e_tY to make the statement for the coming year. He would,
;slaWever, remind the house that heavy expenses had been en-
ed by the necessity of keeping up armaments after the
file
seas over. Last session the amount of taxation had been
4ea by the house after mature deliberation. It was his
I;„"e_lio_us wish to lay the financial statement of the ensuing
14.. rs before the house at the earliest possible opportunity the
!,..*_Tras of the house would permit.budget,ar.) He believed on
tie:
are occasions the annua was stated on going
tiee. a eatonaittee of supply, but such was not the usual prac-
tnteie
iThe usual practice was to allow some progress to be
Meet , n c"nernittee of supply, and to make the financial state-
jaw. :a a committee of ways and means after the great esti-
f,e''s bad been laid before the^ house. His into tion was to
ea,steie_
_t.he
had
opportunity after the army and navy
h mates had esubmiletl to examination by the
ense, to have made the annual financial statement to have
eca.bled the house to judge of the probable expenditure of
the coming year, and alsa of the insane with which
Government propwohseiedhitoulineeGetotveciat expenditure. He trusted
that the course
taking, before the remarks of the front
had resolved upou
ni„lijaent.i.fgaeentotli7emataoi
the
ee
Member for Buckinghamshire, Thighf
house • and at all events, 'whatever
might be sub-
beitted for their consideration by the ri°gii°tn
gentleman,
or by any one else, that the house weuld net °Came to any
existence
definite resolution on the subject of a ta now
tuitii they had heard what might bo the;eimr expendi-
ture of the ensuing year, and what were tho financial plans
of the Geyer anent in order to meet that expenditure.
After a pause, no one rising,
The SPEAKER rose to put
when the Address, but had not got
through the first paragraph
' Mr. GLADSTONE rose in a very thin house and time spoke
'—Re confessed his reluctance to rise at that moment. When
Mc right hon. friend had left his scat to follow what be must
%111 the comprehensive and remarkable speech of right hon,
aeutleman, he did not suppose but that they would hear from
kinister of the Crown some notice or some reply to those
Tel,
. -.'
grave matters with which the earlier portion of that
..De„,A.
te- run eras charged. (Hear.) It appeared to him inconsis_
tict with tharespect due to the house and to the country
Who ''';fiber of the house, and especially a member
)11 !as supposed to speak the sentiments of many other
"lb"; had
foreigti _ ,in debate upon the Address, questioned the
beenelicY of the Government in terms so grave 'as had
~ronehia7e•lihkereployed, that the Government ' should not
orerothen he
one ell'. of notice to these charges. Ho was not
skin upon
whichan,tered the house of the nature of the discus.
ter. Ito did the rightlon, gentleman was about to en-
" his ..---.
.....PreBlunc—and it was an act of presumption
Part to .-
°ter the hon. clack . the Speaker's eye immediately
aat thiwn ;
and
ilfeen.tlm,u,, the seconder of the Address,
Well knew that - did
so upon so peculiar ground that he
mno,a-
at, mei,
mentellit important 'considerations of finance were
agitating the. mind of the country—
teat;;; InierY---whieli . Boni
eleen Las; of the toeschen o„ulded the interest and at
eeac the right on. mat hotuse and he wished to anti-
querknowin. 4,_. gentleman the
te be definite ~,.s bun there Ne Chancellor of the Exche -
that Rem -""'d prompt i as one person especially bound
was the indi n "Willing hi views,and that
emisequellec ef the vidual who ne '
rangement of 1853 e P°ll.
tuition h W addressed them, in
ea occupied at the financial ar-
bound •
c duty, no 1
by ties of publi—'ear. hear
our, net to lose a )Re considered ho was
%cal hon
her') fie
than by those of per-
, 4.. he recognition he feltrab
vtith t °meat in acquainting the house
bound to make of any obligations.
,se %hag 'on him so far 'ltottliail Of COMMOUS, and tha's he could in justice do so in the
illsti petition with the the reason why he rose in
rightlhewan.sgentleman the member for
e&ll3ll2alnehirt At , a
Witten,, almost from the fi Period when the Speech from the
to
ottr foreign poi*,
setae of these topicsrat line to the last, was occupied
It was his intention to have adverted
, but th ri h
exercise
sra • of his Privile es wide field —had e g t hon. gentleman, in the
loge as a member, had entered upon a
questioned the foreign policy of the Go-
h, runsent root
b----oettelay,athe honour ef
and branch, and had made charges whi h he
Government them to
the required c ' his honeyrigliutit°
to; and he must express his regret that
,esponiiblend the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Government adviser of the Crown, had omitted to defend the
n where it had been most formidably assailed.
Same of the alle* tight hon, gentle
guns' made against the Government by the
flue e •
stood the right hen, quite new to him. If he under-
-401310
butrumout
or
_gentleman rightly he said that there was
.9151'44 by whicia unk,n,OWla to the Par,

liament or people of this country, we had become parties and
guareetees for her lee.; peeeees
Mr. DISR A.ELt—I beg the right hon. gentleman's par-
don for a moment. This is a point upon which there should
be no mistake, or false conclusions might be deduced. I
thought there could have been no mistake as to the state-
ment which I made, and which was this r—l asked, Would
the house believe that the Italian domitions of Austria were
guaranteed? Upon which the noble lord at the head of the
Government asked, By what Power ' I replied that there
was a secret treaty for guaranteeing the Italian dominions of
Austria to enstria, by France, but with the sanction, ap-
probation, advice, and at the instance of England ; but I
added that England herself was not a party to the secret
treaty.
Mr. GLADSTONE was glad to have elicited that explana-
tion, for the impression of many of these near him as to what
the right hen. gentleman had said was the same as his own ;
but, taking the matter as it now stood, if such a guarantee
had been given by France. to Austri t, with the entire con-
cuerenee (the right hon. gent.eman said) of this country, or
rather of this Government, he must say that in his opinion,
such a proceeding ought to be known to Parliament, for it
had an essential bearing on any course which thehouse might
think fit to pursue upon Italian affai.s. (Hear.) As to
Naples, inasmuch as the Speech from the Throne had pro-
mised to lay papers before the house, he would not enter into
any details upon so interesting, so important, and so difficult
a question. With respect t 3 Persia, he had to say that
there was great reason to complain that no promise or
expression ou that question had been offered to the house.
He would not then cater into the merits of the ca. e, but
he must say than, no facts, as appearing to him from
reports in the public journals, were an adequate justi-
fication of our proceedings with respect to that country.
When he (Mr. Gladstone) heard the Speech from the Throne,
and particularly that paragraph of it which related to the
flank and the currency, he wee led to the belief that the Go-
vernment were going to introduce legislation upon this sub-
ject. He found also that the right hen. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was about to move for a select com-
mittee for the investigation of this important matter. (He
(Mr. Gladstone) would venture to express a hope that mea-
sures might be takes for guiding the deliberations of the com-
mittee, and giving to it a different plan ; and, in mentioning
this subject to the house, ho would observe t hat a very un-
fortunate change had taken place of late years with respect to
the dignity and efficiency of select committees in matters of
importance. (Hear, hear.) There were grave exceptions,
no doubt ; several most valuable reports had been drawn up,
which had been made the basis of legislation ; but often there
had been introduced into these reports much that was of a
slovenly charaoter, which had been apoligised for on the
ground of the lateness of the session—(hear)—or some other
unfortunate cause preventing due attention to these matters.
He hoped that this would not be the case with the commit-
tee his hon. friend was about to propose. In the wording,
however, of that clause of the Speech which relates to the
Bank of England, he thought that less caution had been used
than could be desired. He had a ver,i strong opinion upon
that subject, for he thought that the privileges of the Bank
of England required provisions quite as much as they de-
served renewal. (Hear) The relations between the State
and the Bank of England were of very ancient date. They
were framed at a time when public faith did not exist, when
no Government could obtain any credit from the monied
world. Those were the circumstances under which the Bank
of England came into existence,and he was bound to say that
much of the relations now existing between the Bank and the
State were founded upon antiquated and highly inappropriate
ideas. Whatever new arrangement was made, it ought to be
after a close and comprehensive investigation. The cha-
racter of the bank should be that of the great agent of
the state in matters of finance; but he (Mr. Gladstone)
thought that the language of the paragraph ought not to im-
ply any foregone conclusion on the part of the house, (Hear,
hear.) The Act of 1844 was one in a largo class of progres-
sive measures; and it did not pretend, in the judgment of
Sir Robert Peel, to a character of absolute finality. (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone) for one did not propose to un-
settle the Act of 1841, or to return to the state of things
which existed before ; bat he thought it ought to be under-
stood, that it was open to the house toeonsider whether the
Act of 1814 was capable of improvement. Such a course
would tend to give an assurance to the country that they
were at length beginuing to emerge from a series of monetary
experiments, and to settle the question upon a permanent and
comprehensive basis. (Hear, hear.) A more important con-
sideration remained. He (Mr. Gladstone) had watched, like
others the reports which had apeeared of meetings taking
place in different parts-of the country, with reference to the
income tax. It was a feeling, perhaps, that was inherent in
the nature of all such popular meetings, but it was one that
he could not help regretting, that the country now showed a
great disposition to be critical and sore on the subject of taxa-
tion, but not to be critical and sore on the subject of expen-
diture. If he (Mr. Gladstone) were to attempt to paint the
temper of the country at that moment, he should say that the
prevailing feature was, that they were jealous with respect to
taxation, and reckless with regard to expenditure. It might
be considered well that the question of direct and indirect
taxation should be settled within the year. But he (Mr.
Gladstone) thought that both the advocates of direct and in-
direct taxation -those who looked with the eyes of idolatry
upon their respective systems —would have abundant oppor-
tunities of discussing their respective merits during future
years. (Laughter.) There had been much discussion upon the
question whether the income tax should be levied as at pre-
sent, or whether a varied rate should be levied upon various
descriptions of income. They would never entirely get rid
of these discussions, and financial and even political dangers
might arise from such discussions; but he (Mr. Gladstone)
had never scrupled to avow his opinion that an income-tax
was en admirable instrument of taxation, but that it was a
dangerous instrument. (Hear.) They had much discussion on
the question of au uniform or varying rate for the income.
tax ; whether incomes of 1001. or 1501. should be the limit
of exemption; and whether a man with 1511. of income
should pay income tax on his 1511., or on his 11. over the
1501. ; and upon none of these questions were the answers
explicit and intelligible. The real necessity was to put the
house and the country in the way of limiting their outlay to
some just and reasonable scale of expense, suited to a peace
establishment. (Hear.) T:iat was the question with respect
to which the-house must in the first instance direct its atten-
tion, if they intended to discharge their duties to the people
of England, whom they represented. (Hear.) That was the
point to which he (Mr. Gladstone) would• then endeavour to
address himself. For once he was not entirely without infor-
mation on the subject. Teem was a portion of the country,
the town of Arbroath, in the south of Sc Aland, which had
been highly favoured by the interesting revelations and dis-
closures made by the Minister at War to his delighted neigh-
bours and friends. (Laughter.) He (Mr. Gladstone) would not
then go into an important question of a different nature, but
he could not understand why such a time and such a place
should have been chosen by the noble lord the Secretary at
War to deliver the opinions of a Minister on the report of the
Crimean inquiry, by Sir John M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch.
Lord Panmure was stated to have related to his friends that
there would be a redaction in the forthcoming year of the
military estimates by twenty millions. He (Mr. Gladstone)
concluded that these were the military estimates--he sup-
posed that it was not the naval that were meant, but the
estimates for the army, the ordnance, the militia, and the
commissariat. Now, there was no means of coming to a know-
ledge of this subject except by the test of expenditure. It
was very well to talk of a niggard economy and so forth—
these were not only truths but truisms—so also to speak of
the benefits and virtues of economy, of relieving
,the people
from taxation, of removing their burdens, and so on, were
truths that came from the other end of the diameter. They
might as well be uttered in Sanscrit for the practical use
they possessed. (Hear.) But figures were more intelligible
to the house; and he would approach the subject by means
of the figures which the War Minister had given through his
great benevolence to his friends at Arbroath. It was said to
be in the contemplation of Government that the military esti-
mates should be reduced by 20 millions. Last year they
amounted to 35 millions, He (Mr. Gladstone) spoke of the
unreduced estimates of last year, because the reduced esti-
mates amounted to 20, millions, and he would' hardly sup.
pose that it was intended to reduce the latter sum by 20 mil-
lions, (Hear.) It was the unreduced military estimates that
it was thus intended to reduce. With regard to the naval
department he must say that his right hon. friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty had not paid a visit to his friends at
Halifax, and therefore he (Mr. Gladstone) had not the cor-
responding inform +tion as regarded that department; but
he was afraid, if he might judge from rumours, that they
were not to expect estimates of a very stingy character.
These estimates last year were 20,0.10,000/. ; before, they
were reduced to 16,500m01., which included no less a sum
than 5,000,0001. for the transport service. He would now
hope, however, that that would be reduced to an amount al-
together insignificant, and he thought that the probable
amount that would be required by his right hon.friend would
be about 9,030,0001. for the naval department. Adding that
to the 11,000,0001. mentioned by Lord Paumure, as being ne-
cessary for the military department, he found that the esti-
mates for a peace establishment could not be less than
2a,000,000/. for the year. With regard to the necessities of the
country, be thought they ought to look at what the expenditure
bad been before the war commenced. It was quite true that
many things existed which required improvement, and that
that improvement could not be effected without expense.
They had all seen, since their return to London, the improved
material of the great-coats of the soldiers. Changes such ai
these, and whatever tended to the social and moral improve-
ment of the soldier, he was sure the country did net grudge.
But these were not the heavy charges and expenses —they
were caused by the tone of the policy which this country
maintained abroad. If it ware true that there were changes
of necessity to be made in the military system which would
entail expense, it was not less true that there were important
and happy
the doctrinee"bene
t •
He repudiated
ry which tended to g
have vast armies to defend thveasnit.
economy. (Hear, hear)
agne:awkeinhad lace in the condition of the emu-
institutions garrisons.
ilnt
Suchcolonial
was only necessary when they had a slave population to keep
paesacoeusersieensowf we must
down, or where it was necessary to maintain great military
theev as
coloniesperfectly
ought plain
to
othat the progress of new
ew,
carry with them the ob-
ligation to discharge theirown burdens. We were pro
our title and inheritance of freedom, and there was no free-
man who believed some• him f the
one else should relieve from
necessity of these charges.
Then, again, the state of things
at home before the war was very different to what it was
now. In Ireland there were from 20,000 to 30,000 men
act-
ing as police, and
the great bulk of the troops discharged the
Y
same duties throughout the country.
Agroat change bad,
howevor,been made in that systnetrtri.by the establishment ablishment of
rural police, thereby subjecting real
property and the rate-
payers generally to a considerable charge. Bat that would
enable them to dispense with the application of their military
force, as they did 20 or 30 years ago, and, therefore, the ex-
penditure on this head must be considerably less. The aver-
age of the military estimate during the 4,1 years previous to
the war was 14,000,0001. The lowest, in 1835, was 12,000.000/.
The estimates since that year had risen considerably, but sel-
dom beyond 17,0001. During the last 15 or 20 years, a new
steam fleet had been created, with a new system of propul-
sion, by which a very large expenditure was incurred. But
that fleet being now completed, there mu.t of necessity be
a vast reduction. The estimate, however, to be proposed
by the Government exceeds that of the years when the steam
fleet was being made He and those with whom ho was
familiar were of opinion that that house ought, in the first
instance, to look at the expenditure of the country. He
would then proceed to show the danger in which the house
would find itself if it voted away the 9d. income tax. The
feeling of the country would no doubt be with them, but the
consequence must be that the Government would be cern-
,pelled to fill the vsouum by a new taxation or to borrow
money, and he for one was not willing to be responsible for
such a measure. The right hon. gentleman then vindi_ated
the conduct of Lord Aberdeen's Government with reference
to the alleged arrangement when the -accession Duty Act was
n 18 passed, i 3, for
the extinguishment of the income tax,
and said that in reply to complaists that income was charged
equally with capital, the Government, unable at the time to
reconstruct the income tax, had, by the Succession Duty Act,
thrown an additional burden on capital, and thus relieved in-
come. There were many purposes of the income tax yet un-
fulfilled. There remained to be erected reforms in our tariffs
both in i.he customs duties and it duties of excise, which
ought not to escape the attention of the house, and the re-
duction of which was perfectly practicable by the existence of
a moderate income tax It was it his mind reasonable and
joufsii
tltliathe right hon. gentlemat (Mr. Disraeli), on behalf
consts friends'ituentssahleulcl d any
independett member on behalf of his
acknowledge '.t the duty of the House of
CPLaIIIOI33 to any
BOW, VA 1857, "nether the pledgee et 1853

were or were not to I,e fulfilled. He (Mr. Gladstone) de-
' tel 'trial'ire ielferelity of the rate and
the varying of the rate ; but these were matters of a
practical character, and it would be his duty to secure
the pledges which had been given in 1853. He could not
forget the conduct of the House of Commons at that
period. If they voted the abolition of the war tax in April,
there would still remain half a year's income tax; and the
question was, whether that should be subject to the pub-
lic expenditure. In 1854 they asked twelve millions addi-
tional taxes, which was for one year's war expenditure, and a
part of that depended upon the income tax. He (the right
hon. gentleman) believed that the Government did not intend
to borrow money when the expenses were on that scale. The
Government asked permission to raise money, and the income
tax was, it might be said, to meet that. The question, then,
was whether the six mouths' income tax should not be applied
in the liquidation of the interest of the loan? It was the duty,
no doubt, of the country to see how the public expenditure
could be best met. As regarded ehe motion of which the right
hon, gentleman had given notice, he (Mr. Gladstone) should
be prepared at the proper time to give it every support, and
if notice of such a motion had not been given he (the right
hon. gentleman) should have felt it his duty to have brought
such a motion forward himself. Whenever the question was
raised with respect to the pledge given in 1853, he had no
doubt the house would be prepared to redeem it. There had
been 40 or 50 millions of additional debt, and the interest of
that must be provided for. Circumstances might occur before
1860 which might require additional modifications to b 3 made
in the financial system, but nothing had occurred which dis-
entitled the house to the pledges made in 1853, and it was
their duty to see them carried out. •
Lord PALMERSTON said- —Sir, I can assure my right hon,
friend who has just sat down that if I did not rise immediately
after the speech of the right hon. gentleman, opposite; it was
not'in any degree from any want of respect to that right hon.
gentleman or to the house. It was, if I may say so, out of re-
spect to my right hon. friend (Mr. Gladstone), as I deemed it
more respectful that I should hear what my right hon. friend
had to say before I should offer any observation to the house.
The speech of the right bon. gentleman opposite appeared to
me to be an instance of the danger into which men of eminent
talents who distinguished themselves in different walks aro
sometimes tempted to fall, by indulging in a display of those
talents which have raised them to eminence. (Hear, hear.)
The right hon. gentleman stands pre-eminent in the house
for statesmanlike qualities, for talents in debate, and
eloquence as a speaker. He has also risen to great re-
putation as a man of genius in another department of intel-
lect, as a great master of the powers of imagination. (A laugh )
I am not going to accuse him on this occasion of being in-
debted to his imagination for his facts and to his memory for
his arguments —(laughter)—a reproach applied in another
Parliament to a distinguished orator ;'but I must say that the
greater part of the right hon. gentleman's speech about our
foreign policy was a perfect and entire romance. (Hear, and
laughter.) The right hon. gentleman had been spending a
part of the vacation in Paris. We know that in that great
capital there are many active men who amuse themselves by
practising on the credulity of those whom they call gobe-
m•ouches. '(Laughter.) What a godsend it was to them to
have in their hands, not a common traveller, but the leader of
the opposition in the English House of Commons —(hear,
hear, and renewed laughter)—a man of distinguished ability,
capable of disseminating with great advantage those tales
which he had stored up in his memory. (Laughter.) To begin
with the question of the Russian treaty, the right hon. gentle.
man did ample justice to the Government, both in regard to
the reasons of the war, and in carrying on the war, for he says
we have secured a peace which was honourable to the objects
of the war, and which had not humiliated Russia unneces-
sarily. I quite agree with the right hon. gentleman that we
had secured the iudependenee of the Black Sea and the free-
dom of the Danube. I also agree with him that Russia, al
though she was compelled to accede to terms which at first
had been rejected, had yet no reason to feel humiliated with
respect to the conflict. She fought a noble and gallant battle
at the extreme end of her dominions ; and I think, as a Rus-
sian, a man might be rather proud of the great efforts she
made. There was nothing in the conduct of the war which
was not honourable to the allies, and nothing in the terms of
peace to inspire Russia with any humiliation, (Hear.)
But then the right hon. gentleman says, in the negotiations
which took place at the Conference in Paris, there
was a great want of geographical knowledge. and the
blunders of our plenipotentiaries caused difficulties to
arise. I. will touch as lightly on the subject of the Conference
as is consistent with its delicacy and importance, and I think it
would have been better for the right hon. gentleman to have
accepted the solution of them without going into the details.
It was well known that Austria began by stating to the French
and English Governments that she was willing to submit to
the Government of Russia certain conditions as the bases of
peace, provided she was assured that those conditions would
be accepted by Russia, and would be equally accepted by the
allies. She was told she might make the proposal. She sent
the conditions to St. Petersburg, intimating that they were to
be accepted or rejected without modification. The ans tier in
the first place was a modified acceptance, and the Government
of Russia was told that would not do, Mit that the only condi-
tions whica she could be instrumental in carrying out must be
purely and simply accepted. One of those conditions was, that
there should be a new frontier in Bessafabia, and that was ac-
cepted by Russia. Russia was then bound by the acceptance
she had signed. When the plenipotentiaries met in Paris, the
Russian plenipotentiary stated that although the Emperor ad-
mitted that he was evidently bound byhis acceptance, it would
greatly soften the conditions, and remove feelings of dissatis-
faction, if such a modification should be made as would still
leave the Principalities untouched, on which the allies grounded
Cthoneitracfrt itowntiehh
frontier,
beaDmaenlyu,t,hat Russia should be excluded from
the Pruth which dischargeasuidtsfell'efulintthoetuhaevbgaantuiebue.of Speavietrualf
proposals were made and not accepted, and at last the Russian
plenipotentiary proposed a line which was accepted, begin-
ning at a certain point, and running is au easterly direction
to the Black Sea. The day after, the Russian plenipotentiary
stated that he wished a modification of that line. That lino
went just to the north of the town of Bolgrad, which was the
head.quarters of a colony of Bulgarians, which had been set-
tled there in 1780, and in which the Russian Government
took great interest. The plenipotentiaries asked where the
town was, and a map was produced, but, being Russian, could
not be reed. (A laugh.) Then another map was produced,
and the Russian plenipotentiaries were requested to point
out the town, because much depended on its geographical
position ; and if it was stated that a lino drawn to the
south of the town of Bolgrad would leave a space between
its frontier and the lake of Yalpuck, such a modification
would not be objected to. It was found that an interval of
four or five miles did exist between that town and the lake.
All the parties were satisfied ; but when the boundary com-
missioners came to the country, and were occupied in tracing
the plan, the English and Turkish commissioners said, " Here
is Bolgrad Proper." The Russians said that the English and
Turkish commissioners were mistaken—that the Bolgrad
which they (the Russians) meant was in a line five or six
miles south. That led to long communications, and the Go-
vernments of England, Austria, and Turkey felt that they
could net consider the new Bolgrad as the Bolgrad in the
treaty, because the line to the south of it would be inconsis-
tent with the principles upon which the • boundary was to bo
laid down. The result at last was, that the Russian Govern-
ment agreed to the boundary originally proposed, and we
went to the north of Old Bolgrad. But as the Russians at-
tached importance to Bolgrad, as the head-quarters of Bul-
garia, they obtained a small acquisition of territory, perfectly
immaterial to a country of such vast limits as theirs; and
the commissioners included a town of sufficient capacity to
become the head-quarters of the Bulgarian province. The
Russian Government therefore failed to extend their territory
south of the Black Sea and of the Baltic, and that was the
ground upon which she attached such value to Bolgrad.
Well, if that be so, we have attained all the objects we de-
sired, and induced Russia to soften down her demands. On the
other hand, a change, it is said, was made in the treaty of Paris
in relation to Moldavia ; but whatever change was effected
was not to the disadvantage of our ally, and the Russian Go-
vernment consented to the change. (Hear, hear.) I have
been asked whether the papers relating to all the different
stages of these transactions would be laid upon the table of
thr house ; but it is not desirable to produce those papers un-
til the difficulties to which they related should be arranged,
and then, undoubtedly, they will be laid befere Parliament.
The tight hon. gentleman next directed his attention to the
affairs of Switzerland, and stated that the Swiss had expressed
their anxiety to yield to the demands of the King of Prussia;
but we are told in very eloquent terms that they would stand
out like men if we would back them ; and then, that when
they asked us if we would back them, that we said, " We'll
not back you at all, and you must give in." (Laughter.)
Now, the facts were these—" An insurrection took place in
the province of Neuchatel, and a number of prisoners were
taken by the Swiss authorities, and the King of Prussia de-
manded that those prisoners should be released and set at
liberty. The demand of the King of Prussia was that they
should be released unconditionally. The Swiss Government
refused to comply with that demand. Tue French Government
offered their mediation to induce the Swiss Government to
come to understanding with the King of Prussia, and pledged
themselves to do all in their power to try and induce that mo-
narch to renounce his demand, The Swiss Government de-
clined the offer. We were asked to join with France in re-
commending a reconciliation between the parties, and to use
our efforts to effect that object. We again said that we could
not interfere with any certainty that our efforts would be at-
tended with success ; for it would not in our opinion bo right
,to induce the Swiss to take steps under false impressions. The
matter was again advised to be settled by the French Govern-
ment, and we said, " Don't rely on any assistance we can give
you ;" and they said, " We'll not submit ; we will stand upon
rights, and face the difficulty." Well, it has been said that
there was an apprehension that the peace of Europe would be
disturbed, and that the King of Prussia, so late as the 15th of
laceNclve hiwsoaurmld footing.jyooninatwhearretlehthe prisoners
It
thad then
would be set at liberty without trial. We said we will do
been said that if if
what we can to befriend you, but we have no certainty that
the advice which the right hon. gentleman says we gave them.
our efforts will be successful. We never, however, gave them
We never told them to refuse to come to terms with the King
of Prussia. Well, the the information which the right hon.
gentleman received while in Paris was wholly untrue, and
quite inconsistent with the facts eef the case. (Hear,
hear.) We now come to Italy, and the right hon. gentleman
has found out a treaty of which we never heard. (Hear,
hear.) He announces that a secret treaty between France
Austria, and Great Britain was concluded ; but that an-
nouncement was the first I ever heard of such a treaty. (Hear,
hear.) Tho right hon. gentleman may have seen such a
treaty ; but all I can undertake to say is, that we hive never
seen it, and that had we been consulted, we certainly should
have given our advice in a totally opposite way. So much
for a treaty which was nothingi but an entire romance.
(Laughter.) But, when it was inquired what course the
Austrian Government would take, and when Austria had in-
luired what course the French Government intended to take,
I believe that the French Government at that time said that
it would take no course or part that was hostile to Austria.
(Hear, hear,) The right here gentleman seems to consider
that while, on the one hand, we were stimulating revolution
in Italy ; on the other, we were advising and encouraging
France tostake a different course, an inconsistency into which
no Government would be likely to fall. The course of the
transactions was set out in the protocols, as would be seen
when the papers were laid on the table. The two Govern-
ments
hbhon,eeya
subject,
joneutcllted,mbaanenda said f iltdi
bbhee
re:
meats having given advice to the King of Naples, the right
bvyicea.
coOmubrinGedovzirsmee,netirwysahaeotwe
otGdaoaai
Governments
nothingoeoright
tet
that
atoastpft
copborrbmuour
sv approvecourse.
of t
opinion
• ui
gal
ohdd
at:
.t go enbteleampiannosvaeydsotlf
;atatuhdeheeouarlssee wsaeysputrhsautedthien
ePoaurrsisewwase
that wouldg insure peace,
peace,
arehuuent pursuing in Persia is the result not of anything that oc-
curred abroad, but rather of the advice sent out by7theHeorle Government. Now, whether the opposition against
p was ordered by the authority of the Governor-General of
India or by the Home Government was not the question.t
The orders would certainly have been sent out by the
Cour of Directors, and through the medium of the Secret
Corn
mittee by law established. No doubt
operations were
undertaken by the authority of her Majesty's Govern
ment ; and the course taken by fernia to a certainty
justified the operations which were undertaken. The
right hen; gentleman had talked of a predetermined system;
endue doubt a predetermined system prevailed; but the Home
Government were part of that system: Did the right hon.
'gentleman molder the taking of Herat of laugh little import.