The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-01 00:00:00

that which I believe to be within our power—a better Go-
vernment for the people of this country. (Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was
received with loird cheers from the Ministerial benches,
said,—After seven nights' debate, conducted with a vigour
and variety which have sustained the reputation of this
house, it is now my duty to examine how far that measure
which five weeks ago I had the honour to introduce, on the
part of the Government, has been affected by this discussion,
and to indicate the course which her Majesty's Govern.
ment think it their duty to recommend the house to
adopt with respect to it. It is some ten years, or
nearly so, since the Prime Minister of this country, then
leader of this house, and occupying the very seat which
I now fill, himself one of the principal promoters and pro-
jectors of the Reform Bill of 1832, announced the delibe-
rate opinion of himself and of his Cabinet that that
famous settlement was in their judgment no longer satis-
factory and sufficient. From that period to the present, by
successive Ministries formed from different parties, the
same opinion has been held, the same advice has been
given to Parliament. The Crown hes been pledged, Par-
liament has been pledged, the Ministry has been pledged
to attempt to amend the representation of the people ; but
this is the first occasion on which a bill with that object has
been offered to that house for a second reading—and how
am I met under these circumstances ? (Cheers.) Now, sir,
what is this bill which I have introduced It is founded on
three great principles. We have had so much discussion
about principles and about details that the house will permit
me to remind them what these three great principles are.
The first principle is that the constituent body of this
country shall be increased by the introduction into it of a
large number of persons and a vast variety of the popula-
lation who shall in future possess the suffrage. Under this
bill, and in pursuance of this principle, I believe, that a:
great an addition would be made to the constituent body as
was made by the Reform Act of 1832. (Hear.) By the
Reform Act of 1832, 400,000 persons were added to the
constituency. By the bill which I introduced to the house
five weeks ago I believe that a number, certainly not less
than that, will be added to the electoral body. The
second principle on which this bill is founded is that those
larger communities whose wealth, population, and distinc-
tive industry and character have been developed since the
passing of the Act of 1832 should be summoned to direct
representation in this house. (Hear, hear.) The third
great principle is that this bill maintains generally the pre-
sent borough system, on the ground that no efficient substitute
has yet been offered for it, and on the ground that it is the
only means by which you can obtain an adequate represen-
tation of the various interests and classes of the country,
and that all the proposed changes would only lead to the
pm-eminence of a numerical majority of the population.
(Hear, hear.) Now, sir, these are the three great principles
upon which this bill is founded. All the rest, however
important—all the rest is matter of detail, which ought to
be, and can only be sufficiently discussed in committee.
(Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman who has just
addressed the house has put to me a question to which he
has called upon me frankly to reply. I will reply frankly.
I say that every proposition in this bill irrespective of the
three great principles upon which it is founded is a matter
of detail—(hear)—that the committee is the proper place
for the discussion of those propositions, and that to their
discussion in committee I and the rest of the Government
will give a candid consideration—(hear)—but whether the
point be a great one or a small one, whatever view the hon.
and learned gentleman may take of it, I decline to pledge
myself before that discussion takes place, and to say that I
will defer to any determination at which the committee may
arrive. (Cheers.) That appears to me to be a demand
which is both unreasonable and unparliamentary. (Hear.)
Now, sir, I have reminded the house what are the three
great principles upon which this bill is founded, and I may
be permitted to say that I believe a majority, and a large
majority, of this house is in favour of those three princi-
ples. (Hear, hear.) If that be the case, I should not have
been surprised to receive a very fierce opposition upon the
second reading; that at least I might, perhaps, have antici-
pated and successfully encountered. With the conviction
that I have that a majority in this house is in favour of the
principle upon which the bill is founded, I might have an-
ticipated, and had a right to count upon the success of the
second reading. But we arc not permitted to bring the ques -
tion to that issue. (Hear.) With the majority of this house
in favour of the principle upon which the bill is founded—
(cries of "No ! no !" and cheers)—with the majority of
this house, in my belief, in favour of tha three prin-
ciples which I have just mentioned—(renewed cries of
" No, no !" and cheers)—this measure is not to be tried upon
its principles, but a resolution is thrust into your hands,
sir, which asks the house to commit itself upon two points
which are, after all, points of detail—(No, no, and cheers)
—which are unquestionably, points of detail, as I will show
—(no, no)—andwhich ought to be considered in committee.
(Hear, hear.) What are the two objections to which the
amendment of the noble lord refers ? I will touch first upon
the one which is, certainly, of least importance, what the
noble lord calls the disfranchisement of freeholders. I can-
not admit that any freeholder is disfranchised by this bill.
On the contrary, I think I might with equal justice say
that it providek for the enfranchisement of freeholders, but
for the sake of discussion, I will take the noble lord's state-
ment. Is this the first bill to amend the representation of
the people in which there has been a measure of disfran-
chisement ? The noble lord has had great experience in Re-
form Bills, will he mention to me any bill with which he
was ever connected in which there have not been large mea-
sures of disfranchisement ? (Hear, hear.) "Why, sir, by the
bill of 1831-2 the whole constituent body of the cities and
boroughs of England, amounting in number to nearly
100,000 persons, was partially or completely disfranchised.
The noble lord was not on that occasion content with pro-
posing the disfranchisement of whole constituencies of the
counties and cities of England ; he, to a great extent, dis-
franchised the freeholders in counties. The freeholder who
lived in one of the great towns which were then first sum-
moned to Parliament, found that he was, to use the lan-
guage of the noble lord, disfranchised as an elector for the
county, and became only a voter as an occupant for the bo-
rough in which he resided. (Hear, hear.) I received to-day
a letter which is germane to the pointnow under discussion.
The noble lord and some who have followed him, like the
member for the city of Oxford, in solemn accents warned
the house of the unconstitutional character of the provision
which would allow a freeholder to vote in a borough. My
correspondent of this morning lives in Bristol, which is
both a city and a county in itself, like several other
great towns in England. The freeholders of Bristol
vote for the city by virtue, I believe, of nearly the oldest
statute on our books, a statute passed some 500 years ago.
But the gentleman who wrote to me, who is a freeholder,
and who votes for the city, is not a freeholder by virtue of
that ancient statute. It so happened that when the Reform
Bill was passed in 1832thebound aries of Bristol were greatly
enlarged, and many county freeholders were brought into
the liberties of the city. My friend and correspondent is one,
and he was, therefore, according to the noble lord's inter-
pretation, and through the noble lord's agency, disfran-
chised as a county freeholder, and became a mere elector for
the city of Bristol. But lam bound in fairness to tell the
noble lord that my correspondent is particularly pleased
with that arrangement. (Hear, hear.) He assures me that
there is nothing more popular in Bristol, and that those free-
holders who were nobodies in a large county now find them-
selves of great influence in the city. (Cheers.) The infor-
mation which has reached us from many parts of the coun-
try is quite in accordance with the statements of that gen-
tleman. (Hear.) Will the noble lord deny that in all the
bills of 1831 and 1832, disfranchisement, as he calls it, was
proposed on a very large scale ? But what would the noble
lord then have thought if, when he had brought forward a
measure dealing with the great principle to which I have
adverted, and with the great interests which were then con-
cerned, the Opposition of that day had proposed a resolu-
tion, that the disfranchisement of the freeholders in coun-
ties was so unconstitutional a proposition that the house
could not consider the question of improving the represen-
tation of the people ? (Cheers.) What has been the conduct
of the noble lord upon subsequent occasions ? Has not the
noble lord himself proposed to disfranchise altogether the
existing freemen of the country to the number, I believe,
of nearly 50,000, and has he not brought forward a measure
in order to secure,' as he alleged, the representation of
minorities, which would have deprived most of the
county electors of their third votes ? (Hear, hear.)
Some might have considered these proposals, some did
consider them, very objectionable arrangements,
,hat they were looked upon as details ; nobody met the noble

lord with a resolution such as he has now thrust into your
hands, carrying away the attention of the house from the
great interests concerned, and the great principles involved,
and asking the house, by way of censure upon the general
scheme, to commit itself upon mere points of detail. (Cheers )
Let me now touch upon that portion of the resolution which,
though the more important one we have elicited in debate,
formed no part of the original instrument when it was first
concocted in order to embarrass the Government. (Hear.)
But before I can discuss the important subject of the amount
of the borough franchise, or vindicate the course which
Government has taken, it is absolutely necessary that I
should touch for a moment on the question of the county
franchise. There has been, no doubt, in the course of this
prolonged debate frequent expressions of opinion, and from
persons of great authority, in favour of a county franchise
fixed at the amount of about £2O. I believe I am fairly
stating the case when I say that there is no question be-
tween £5O and any other sum, but that the question for dis-
cussion is between an occupation franchise for counties of
£9O, or one of £lO ; and I admit that there have been• fre-
quent declarations of opinion by persons who ought to exer-
cise, from their experience and their ability, great influence
in this house in favour of a £2O occupation franchise for
counties. But let us for a moment consider what the house
has already done upon that subject. In 1851 the noble lord
was Prime Minister. An hon. gentleman, a member for a
county, had for some time previously brought the considera-
tion of the county franchise before the house. It was then
commencing to be a parliamentary question of considerable
importance. In 1851 that gentleman brought forward a mo-
tion for introducing a bill which would have reduced the oc-
cupation franchise in counties to the amount of £lO. The
noble lord at the head of his Government resisted that motion.
The motion was carried by no inconsiderable majority, and
the noble lord resigned in consequence. It is very true that
from circumstances not anticipated the noble lord in the
same year again returned to power, but the noble lord,
when ho returned to power, having acknowledged that it

was in consequence of that adverse majority on the subject
of the county franchise that he had resigned office, an-
nounced that he and his colleagues had resolved to take the
whole question of the representation of the people into con-
sideration, and that they would even introduce to the house
a general and comprehensive measure. Upon that under-
taking, and that undertaking alone, the followers of the
noble lord no longer pressed the question on which they
had already obtained a majority. In 1852 the noble lord, in
fulfilment of his pledge, after taking a whole year to con-
sider the question with his colleagues, introduced a com-
prehensive measure of Parliamentory reform. Every point
had been considered, and of course among them the county
franchise; but the noble lord upon that occasion still re-
sisted the policy which had been indicated by the motion a
the hon. member for East Surrey, and proposed a £2O oc-
cupation franchise. That measure of the noble lord ob-
tained no favour when it was introduced, and shortly after
its introduction thenoble lord'sGoverninent again broke up.
The house will thus observe that in 1851 the noble lord's
Government was destroyed by an adverse vote in 1852,
although he proposed to reduce the franchise to £2O, his re-
constructed Administration did not exist for more than a
fortnight after the introduction of his measure. (Hear,
hear.) In 1853 another Government was formed. The
country was tired of Whig Governments ; the country was
tired of Governments that did not possess the confidence of
this house. No one could see how a working majority could
be obtained, and after the defeat of the noble lord's Govern-
ment, and after the defeat of Lord Derby's Government, it
was resolved that means should be taken by which we
should have a Government that not only by the com-
manding talents of its members, but by the ge-
neral confidence of the house, should conduct the
affairs of the country with an administrative ability
not hitherto experienced, and that should settle all great
public questions by the exercise of those qualities which
statesmen of the highest class could alone possess. That
Cabinet counted amongits members some most distinguished
men. There were members of the Administration of Lord
Grey, who had been companions in the construction of the
original Reform Act. There were the favourite and most
famous pupils of the late Sir Robert Peel. There were
others also greatly distinguished, and there was unques-
tionably a combination of ability which seldom has been
brought together in one council chamber. So great was the
confidence of the country, and so great was the confidence
of an admiring Parliament in this coalition Cabinet, that
although, at the moment of their accession to office, they
announced that their attention would be given to the sub-
ject of Parliamentary Reform, with the hope and intention
of settling the question, I will not say finally and for ever,
but in a manner which would satisfy the present, and per-
haps a succeeding generation, they were accorded a period
of time not less than 12 months, in order that they might
not be hurried in their deliberations, and that they should
offer to the house the matured results of their wisdom, their

experience, and their abilities. Well, what did they do ?
These distinguished men having devoted their energies, in-
tellect, and time to this question did, in due season, bringl
forward a comprehensive measure, they proposed a very
considerable redistribution of seats, they disfranchised some
constituencies, they proposed a reduction of the franchise
in the borough constituencies ; and what was the result at
which they arrived with respect to the county constituen
cies ? After deliberating for a year, this Cabinet, composed
of eminent men, and presided over by a statesman of
European reputation, but Tory education, recommended
Parliament to establish in the counties a £lO occupation
franchise. (Hear, hear.) And who were the men who,
in 1854, recommended this £lO occupation franchise?
Among them were many of the most distinguished members
of this house. Among them was, of course, the noble lord
the member for the city of London. He was the organ
of the Government by which the measure was intro-
duced. There was the right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), the noble lord the member for
Tiverton (Lord Palmerston)—(hear, hear)—the right hon.
member for Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert), and the right hon.
member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone). And
what do you suppose was the influence under which these
distinguished men acted ? Are we to suppose they thought
lightly on this important subject? Can you believe they
would have given assent to the proposition unless they had
maturely weighed and deeply investigated the question,
with that sense of responsibility which men in such a pea-
-1 tion must feel ? We know now, it is no secret, and I may
refer to it, that there was great discord, that there were
great dissensions in that Cabinet on the question of Reform ;
that Cabinet was also unfortunate upon it, for they lost a
colleague, but, more fortunate than we, that colleague re-
turned to them. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member
for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) quitted the Cabinet because
it proposed a £lO qualification ; but if so, he must have
returned to it and been convincing by its arguments. He
quitted the Cabinet, but why did not his colleagues follow
him if they shared his opinions ? (Cheers.) And it is
from the lips of those right hon. gentlemen we now hear
that the solution of all these difficulties, that the sound and
proper scheme—the proposition that would be acceptable to
the house would be a £2O qualification for the counties !
Surely, when, after such deliberation in such a responsible
position, they gave their adhesion and approbation to
a £lO franchise, they must have felt how far the question
had advanced, how far public opinion sanctioned the pro-
position which before that had only been the proposition
of a private member, supported only by the sympathy
of his own followers in the House of Commons. (Hear,
hear.) And now we are told that the counsel given by our
late colleagues are those which would have been acceptable
to the present house. I feel much esteem for the talents
and the eloquence of our former colleagues ; but I
fear I might have spoken at much length, without pro-
' ducing the effect they have done under the present cir-
cumstances—(hear, hear, and laughter)—if I, and the
other members of the Derby Cabinet, had proposed and
supported a £2O franchise. But I must, on this occasion,
pursue the history of this subject, for it is very instructive.
The measure containing this proposal of a £2O franchise
was withdrawn by the Aberdeen Cabinet on account of the
war then impending, and which shortly afterwards broke
out. That war diverted and distracted all men's minds
from the consideration of the subject. There was a change
of Government and a new Prime Minister; when peace re-
turned, all the joys of peace accompanied it, the £lO occu-
pation franchise in counties was again a Parliamentary
question. It has been said that when the Government of
1851 was upset by that very motion; that it was not a fair
expression of the opinion of the House of Commons ; that
the division was taken at an unexpected hour ; that
the Ministry was surprised. There can be no doubt, had
this really been the case, the noble lord, who knows the
House of Commons as well as any man, would not have
thought it his duty to resign ; but he knew very well that
on this subject the opinion of his party was determined,
and that it was impossible to resist the question. But that
was not the position of the noble lord (Palmerston) when he
was himself the First Minister. (Hear, hear.) Then came
out what was always suspected, that the noble lord, though
ho had given his adhesion to the Cabinet of Lord Aberdeen,
had really, in heart and spirit, a horror of the £lO franchise.
(Hear, hear.) When ho was First Minister the question
again menaced ; all the energies and resources of the Go-
vernment were employed to defeat the demand, and the noble
lord knew well that from our side of the house he would
again receive a hearty support. (Cheers.) I must remind
the house that in the interval there had been a dissolution
of Parliament on the Chinese business, that had conside-
rably reduced the Conservative ranks ; but the noble lord
knew well we should support him, and we did support him.
(Cheers.) Everyeffort was made and in the division there were
including pairs, from 230 to 240 gentlemen sitting on these
benches who supported the Government that night. The Go-
vernment triumphed ; the motion of the hon. memberfor East
Surrey (Mr. L. King) was defeated in a full house, by a
majority of 13. (Cheers.) And when next morning, I re-
vised the division-list, for my own instruction, I found
that the aid which the noble lord, with all his efforts and
energy, had brought to the struggle, might have been
determined by the figures that denoted the majority !
(Loud cheers.) There is one incident more in this eventful
history. The time came, last year, when we sat on these
benches ' • the hon. member for East Surrey again brought
forward his bill. On the measure being proposed, I moved
the previous question, on the ground that the Cabinet of
Lord Derby had resolved to consider the whole question.
But the same courtesy was not accorded to me, that, under
similar circumstances—(loud cheers)—had been accorded to
the noble lord. (Cheers.) I evaded a division then, and,
on the second reading of the bill, it being a period of the
evening favourable to the assembly of hon. members, every
effort was made to resist the motion. The hon. gentleman
near me looked on that occasion with great anxiety to the
noble lord the member for Tiverton. They had an idea
that with his aid we should have been saved ; the noble
lord gave no encouragement to that idea, and many of my
friends upbraided him for his refusal. I did not sanction
those reproaches. The division was called, and the motion
was carried by a large majority; the noble lord himself
voted for it; but I was informed, on the highest authority
—and it was not told me as a secret—that had the noble
lord supported us he would have been followed into the
lobby only by four members of his party. I mention these
facts to show how utterly impracticable it would have been
to propose a £2O franchise to this Parliament. And when I
hear it asked, night after night, why we have not proposed
that franchise, which could not be proposed by Lord Aber-
deen's Cabinet, I am obliged to show the house how totally
impracticable is the proposition, quite irrespective of its
policy. What would have been our position had we pro-
posed a £2O franchise for the counties? Why, the struggle
that is taking place now would have taken place on that
very point, and I think with much greater advantage to
the noble lord, because he would have been the champion
of the House of Commons, whose deliberate and recorded
opinion would have been outraged by the proposition, and
no doubt the noble lord would have carried his views
against the Government. (Cheers.) And what would have
been our position if we had followed the noblelord's advice,
so contrary to his former policy, and even smiled on with
demureness by the lion. member for Birmingham ? (Hear,
and laughter.) Why, our position would have been this,—
if we had proposed a £2O franchise for counties, and a £6
franchise for boroughs, that we should have commenced our
labours in committee with a £lO franchise for counties and
a£6 franchise for boroughs. (Hear, hear.) This leads me
to the very question of the borough franchise. That the
£2O franchise for counties would have been au impolitic)
proposition is what I will in a short time maintain, buthav-
ing brought the consideration of the house to what would
have been the case had we followed the advice so liberally
offered us by those who never practised it themselves—
(cheers)—having shown what would have been our situation
in proposing to Parliament a £2O franchise for counties and
a £6 franchise for boroughs, I must now inquire whether
we could, with our view of what we considered our duty,
have made a proposition of that character. Let us consider
the question of the borough franchi.e ; I will not call itthe
reduction of the borough franchise, but this extension of the
borough franchise recommended by the noble lord. On this
subject we have had the opinions of several very eminent
statesmen in this debate, professing different schools of
politics. There was my right hon. friend the member for
the University of Cambricicre. He is in favour of a £2O
franchise for counties, and would like at the ammo time
a £lO franchise for boroughs, but feels that something
must be done, and then murmurs that he would have
no 'objection to consider the question of a £3
rating franchise. Then we come to the noble lord the mem •
ber :for Tiverton. He expressed his affection fur a £2O
county franchise, and does not conceal his complete respect
for a £lO franchise fir boroughs, but he says that the noble
lord the member for London got him in a corner—(u laugh)
—and showed him the resolution, and he liked the resolu-
tion, and expressed his readiness to act with the noble lord
the member for London upon a resolution which he could
support. I quite agree with the noble lord the member tier
Tiverton, as far as the resolution is concerned, for the n3hle
lord, by entering into this combination, made no engage-
ment which, as far as the borough franchise is concerned,
will at all embarrass him. (Hear, hear.) lam quite aware
myself of all the tricks and management with which you
can deal with the borough franchise. You can appear to
be doing a very great act and yet manage to keep out of
the franchise the very class for whom so many people ex,
press so much sympathy. (Cheers.) I have got all the
plans in my pigeon-holes, and could avail myself of them
with perfect impunity. An £8 rating franchise, which some
fancy, would disfranchise half the constituency ; a £7 rat-
ing franchise is better than a £lO value, and even a £6 rat-
ing franchise, well doctored, would do your beisineas.
(Cheers and laughter.) And the noble lord is not pledged
even to any of these by the resolution which ho supports.
(Cheers.) A. simple alteration of what are palled our" fancy

franchises," most of which the noble lord supports himself,
would entirely redeem the pledge of the noble lord ; and I
do not know anybody who could reduce the borough fran-
chise in a more Conservative spirit than the noble lord.
(Hear.) But I will describe generally the proposition and
policy of my right hon. friendand the noble lord, which I,
will take as representing the school of politicians who are in
favour of a £2O county franchise, and a£6 borough fran-
chise. WS called and may be called by courtesy, a Conserva-
tive policy. I think it a feeble and a dangerous policy, and
because I think it feeble and dangerous I think it also a
foolish policy. (Hear.) But still it a Conservative policy,
and is represented at present by my right hon. friend and
the noble lord. Now let me advance to the propositions of
other statesmen on this subject, and see how they agree,
because it is important that we should understand what
harmony of feeling there is on this subject among those very
critics of the Government measure. (Hear.) I will not be
so unjust to the noble lord the member for Londen as to
estimate his policy by his resolution. His resolution is a
party resolution and drawn up as a party resolution.
(Cheers.) Ido not blame the noble lord for drawing up the
resolution in a way which will allow as many as possible to
support it ; but the noble lord as a man of honour must
have a policy. He will not play and trifle with Parlia-
ment. Therefore, the noble lord had a policy, and I must
say I think that he fairly described it. He said—at least
so far as you can obtain a precise declaration of policy in a
speech—that his policy is to admit to the franchise the
great body of the working classes. I think myself that
there is some principle in that declaration. I could wish
that there had been more detail and that we had obtained
from the noble lord some idea of the means by which the
great body of the working classes is to be admitted to the
franchise. I regret that that explanation was omitted, but
what we wanted was soon supplied by a very remarkable
speech made in the course of this debate, though some time
after the opening address of the noble lord I allude to the
speech of the right hon. member for Carlisle. I must say
that that right hon. gentleman addressed the house on this
subject with great precision, and furnished the house with
a programme sufficiently distinct, and one which I think
the country will understand. (Cheers.) A large disfran-
chisement of small boroughs, and an extensive redistribu-
tion of seats, were the first articles of the efficient pro-
gramme of the right hon. member for Carlisle. Then, not
maintaining the phrase of " an extension of the franchise,"
the right hon. gentleman proposed a considerable reduc-
tion of the borough franchise, not less, as I recollected, than
that very municipal franchise into the enormities of which,
I believe, a committee of the other house is inquiring.
Last, but certainly not least, with some courteous reluct-
ance, adopted as a compliment, I suppose, to the house,
but certainly with a prescient approbation, the election el
members of Parliament by ballot was named. (Cheers.) I
was not so surprised by the programme as were some hon.
members, for I remember a speech, delivered some years
ago on the hustings at Carlisle, from which we clearly un-
derstood—though it appeared afterwards that we were mis-
taken—that the right hon. baronet had adopted these opi •
nions. (Cheers.) . Nevertheless, here, at any rate, we now
have a programme distinct and clear, and no man, however
liberal his opinions, can say that he has not at last found a
leader who will bring in a measure which he can conscien-
tiously support. (Hear, hear.) There was an admission
in the speech of the right hon. baronet not less important
than his political programme, and which, in my opinion,
will yet exercise a considerable effect on political fortunes
and public events in this country. (Cheers.) And what
was that admission ? It was that he himself was one of the
parties to the resolution of the noble lord the member for the
City of London. (Hear hear.) As metaphors are now in
fashion, I may say without offence that the noble lord and
the right hon. gentleman in this business are clearly con-
spirators—(cheers and laughter)—because it has been an-
nounced by the right hon. gentleman that this resolution
was contrived together; and the irresistible and inevitable
inference is that the noble lord is equally pledged to the
programme. (Cheers.) Well, then, we have now a leader,
or leaders, with a definite programme—a large disfranchise-
ment of small constituencies—a large reistribution of
seats—a great reduction of the borough franchise—muni-
cipal suffrage at least—and, more than probably, vote by
ballot. (Cheers.) If these be the opinions of the right
hon. member for Carlisle and the noble lord the member
for London, practically speaking I want to know what dif-
ference there is between their political system and that of
the hon. member for Birmingham ? (Cheers.) The hon.
member for Birmingham, speaking out of doors, and colour-
ing more highly than he does in this assembly, and con-
fessing as he always does with the frankness of his nature
• that he Would take less than he asked, and asked somewhat
more than he wishes, may in some points that I cannot
to recall to mind exceed and excel the programme of the con-
. federates ; (hear, and laughter)—but I have no doubt that
the hon. member for Birmingham, as a practical man, has
no objection to these conditions, and, for the purpose of
• obtaining these results, would not decline to act with the
noble lord and the right hon. gentleman in any manner,
and in any place. (Cheers.) As to the ulterior views of
the hon. member for Birmingham, we know that they have
been brought forward. The Throne has not always been
spoken of, perhaps, by him with that reverence which I
believe all Englishmen feel for it—(cries of " Oh, oh," and
cheers)—the House of Lords may, by chance, have been
denounced eas a public nuisance to the country. (Loud
cheers.) The ecclesiastical establishments have not yet re-
ceived disapprobation; but although the noble lord and the
• right hon. gentleman may not be yet so advanced, or, if so
advanced, may not choose to announce their opinions, we
know that in all Cabinets there may be open questions—
(laughter and cheers)—and, practically speaking, on the
programme, I see no reason whatever why the hon. member
for Birmingham should not be adapted as a trusted and
honoured colleague of the right hon. gentleman and of the
noble lord. (Laughter and cheers.) We see, then, that
there is advantage in Parliamentary debate—we see that we
have arrived in this discustion at certain results; we know
something more of the opinions of individuals ; we can see
somewhat mbre clearly the future of parties; but what sur •
prises me is the combination of eminent men, with such
opposite opinions and such opposite projects, against her
Majesty's Government. (Cheers.) What I cannot reconcile
is the mild Conservative policy of a £2O franchise in counties,
and some slight extension of the franchise in boroughs, ad-
vocated by the noble lord the member for Tiverton, by
my right honourable friend,7and by the distinguished col-
leagues of Lord Aberdeen—(cheers)—with the avowed, the
determined, the advanced, almost the flagrant policy
of the confederates of the hon. member for Birming-
ham. (Cheers and laughter.) Now' Sir, how are we met
upon this question ? An hon. friend of mine, the member
for Dorsetshire (Mr. Sturt), who made a speech on the
first night of this discussion, which I have so good an
opinion of his talents as to believe that he would not have
made on the last night of the debate, said that he was not
afraid of the people of England—(cheers)—whereupon
there was great cheering from hon. gentlemen opposite;
and I doubt not that if the sentiment had been uttered, and
uttered so well and so gracefully, at any of the minor
theatres, it would have been received with applause still
more enthusiastic. (Laughter.) My hon. friend might
have stopped and made two inquiries. He might have asked,
" What are the people ?" and " Why should I fear ?" I have
no apprehension myself that, if you narrowed the suffrage
to-morrow, the honest, the goodnatured—the more than
goodnatured, the laborious and brave people of England
would take to pillage, to incendiarism, and to massacre.
Who expects that ? (Cheers.) But, Sir, although I could,
I hope, do as much justice to the qualities of our country-
men as any gentleman in this house, although I might
not indulge in some high-flown and far-fetched expressions
with respect to them that we have listened to,—the people
may have their parasites as well as monarchs and aristocrae
cies—(loud cheers),—l have no doubt that, whatever may
be their high qualities, our countrymen are subject to the
same political laws that affect the condition of all other com-
munities and nations. If you establish a democracY, you
must, in due season, reap the fruits of a democracy. (Cheers.)
You will, in due season, have great impatience of public
burdens—(cheers)—combined, in due season, with a great
increase of the public expenditure. (Renewed cheers.) You
will, in due season, reap the fruits of such united influences.
You will, in due season, have wars entered into from
passion, and not from any reason of State—(cheers)— and
you will, in due season, tolerate and submit to peace igno-
miniously sought and ignominiously obtained, which will
diminish your authority, and perhaps endanger your inde-
pendence. (Loud cheers.) You will, in due season, with
a democracy, find that your property is less valuable
and that your freedom is less complete. (Cheers.) I
doubt not that when there is a sufficient quantity of dis-
affection and dismay the good sense of the country will
come to the rally, and you will obtain some remedy for your
grievances, and sonic redress for your wrongs, by the process
by which alone it can be obtained—by that force which may
make your liberty more eminent. (Loud cheers.) I know
I shall be told that these are old fashioned notions, and the
hon. member for Birmingham has said the same thing upon
that platform on which he is always speaking, and which
he certainly adorns. He will point to the instance of the
United Stites of America, and will say, " Their example
proves what a complete delusion is the fear which you en-
tertain of democracy." But I say that between old Europe
and those States there is no sort of analogy. I say thatthe
United States of America are colonies. A country, though
independent, does not cease to be a colony. They are not
only colonies, but they are absolutely colonising, and none
of ;the conditions obtain in them which regulate the social
system of the ancient communities of this quarter of the
globe. Well, that being my opinion, I cannot look upon
what is called the reduction of the franchise in boroughs
but with the greatest alarm, and I have never yet met any
argument that fairly encounters the objections which are
urged to it. You cannot encounter them by sentimental
descriptions of the good qualities of the working classes.
The greater their qualities the greater the danger. If you
.lay it down as a principle that they are to enter into the
constituent body, not as individuals, but as a multitude,
they must be a dominant class from their numbers, and if
you dwell upon their intelligence you only increase the
power that they will exercise. lam taking the sentiments
of hon. gentlemen opposite as admissions for the sake of
argument. I am not myself giving an opinion that their in-
telligence equals their numbers. Now, sir, we had to con-
sider this question when we settled the point of the county
franchise. We laid down for ourselves the object which in our
mixed Government we ought to obtain with respect to a
constituency. I made au observation when I first addressed the
house on this subject which I only repeat because the hon.
member for Dover (Mr. Osborne), who was not present, I
believe, when I spoke, misconceived my statement, and
ascribed it to the borough constituencies. I spoke of the
great national constituency when I said that it ought to be
numerous enough to be independent, and select enough to
be responsible, Now, how is that object to be obtained ?
We thought we could obtain.. that result by the establish-
ment of a variety of franchises which would introduce into
the constituency numerous classes with different pursuits
and with different interests—(cheers)—and we felt that by
establishing the same occupation franchise in counties and
in boroughs we should prevent the introduction of the mul-
titude which _otherwise-eif once we began a reduction of
the borough franchise—would, in our opinion, ultiMately
and speedily enter, and at the same time supply means by
which the most intelligent and the most meritorious of the
working classes could enter into the great national consti-
tuent body. Was not that policy sound ? Was it not a
wise and effective policy?, It requires no argument from
me te establish that position, or to enforce that rule. Why,
Sir, the admission of the hon. member for Birmingham the
other night was conclusive upon that point. What was his
objection to this miscalled identity ? lie said that if you
had the same £l') occupation franchise in counties and in
towns he saw very little chance of your ever reducing the
suffrage in boroughs. That was the very object we wished
to obtain, but it is something to have such an admission
from the lion. member for Birmingham. When he tells
us that there would be this difficulty (Mr. Bright,
" More difficulty')--it i because he perceives there is .a
barrier and bulwark against the promotion of his plans, and
that the course vie propose would have led to the establish-
ment of a very large constituency, homogeneous in cha-
racter, united in feeling, and no longer with jealousy be-
tweu a dffUent classes, but at the same time so elastic and
so expansive frm. the variety of the • franchises, from the
different kinds of property- Int/Aired, thrt it wpuld
always be increasing with the increasing prosperity
of the country, and no man of common industry and
intelligence would be shut out from the suffrage. (Cheers.)
But to this policy three objections have been urged in this
debate. Tulip noble lord objects to it because he is against
what lie calls uniformity of franchise. Well, this bill is
introduced with the greatest variety of f,01.1014§e that ever

was included in any Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) Personal
property for the first time is completely admitted as a
qualification for electoral privileges. There is scarcely a
class and scarcely a species of property which is not con-
sidered in this unprecedented variety of franchise (hear,
hear) ; and yet the noble lord gets up and says, " I oppose
your bill because I object.to uniformity of franchise." The
noble lord is against a uniformity of the franchise in coun-

ties and boroughs. Now, how has the noble lord dealt
with this matter 2 The noble lord has spoken through-
out this debate upon the subject as if it was an inno-.
vation unknown and unprecedented in our political his-
tory. He says such a uniformity would be unconstitu-
tional, pernicious, and unjust. (Hear, hear.) It is for

this i;.,,ason that he oppose; the bill in' Ws speeches, and
yet he never refers to the point in his resolution. (Hear,
hear.) There is nothing in the resolution against uniformity
or identity of franchise,. because you may reduce or you
may extend the franchse, and yet you may preserve uni-
formity. But in his speeches the noble lord is extremely
strong against this unhead of, this unconstitutional system,
which, according to the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the city of Oxford, would be the tomb of our liber-

ties. (Hear, hear.) What has been the course pursued
upon it by the noble lord ? The noble lord, as a mem-
ber of Lord Aberdeen's Government—as the principal
organ of the Government by which that matured plan of
reform was introduced—proposed five new franchises
with the consent of the right hon. gentleman the mem•
ber for ,Wiltshire, with the consent of the right hon.
baronet the member for Carlisle, and, of course, with
that of the noble lord the member for Tiverton, and he
proposed at the same time that they should be ex-
tended to counties and boroughs. (Hear, hear.) So much
for identity and uniformity. Well, the noble lord failed in
' that praiseworthy effort ; but the noble lord, by that propo-
sition, announced that he was in favour of identity of suf-
frage in county and in town—in favour of a great variety
of franchises, but that they should be equally enjoyed by
the borough and by the county. The noble lord was ex-
tremely disappointed that that bill was not allowed to be
read a second time, and he made an announcement in this
house which I well recollect. He said he was convinced

that the time had gone by when, on the subject of Reform,
what were generally called comprehensive measures, could
be passed, and he therefore intended to devote himself for
the future to supporting the motion of the hon. member for
Surrey. (" Hear," an a laugh.) The noble lord con-
sistently with that declaration has voted invariably for the
hon. member for Surrey's motion which established an
identity between the borough and the county. (Cheers.)
Well the second objection to this bill is, that the working
classes are not considered. I have already touched upon
that part of the bill which relates to them. t say the work-
ing classes are admitted under the system that we propose
in a manner which I think will be satisfactory to them when
it is brought into operation—(cries of Oh, oh I" and
Ministerial cheers)—and which I think is consistent with
the principles of our constitution. (Cheers.) Why, hon.
gentlemen talk as if the working classes at this moment
had nothing to do with the suffrage ; but from infor-
mation that reaches me I believe that a great portion
of those who live in. £lO houses,' especially in the north,
are working men. (Hear, hear.) There are still
50,000 freemen who are worlsins, men, notwithstanding
the kind intentions of the noble lord. (Laughter and
cheers.) Can hon. gentlemen, when they are talking so
constantly of the progress of the country, of its increase in
wealth, of its progress in all the arts 1 hat contribute to em-
ployment, and ease of life, shut their eyes to the fact that
with cheap provisions, with high wages, and with the
other innumerable advantages arising from increased com-
merce, the working classes have not proportionately ad-
vanced, that the mechanic who 25 years ago could not live
in a £lO house does not now and frequently live in one?
(Hear.) If you take the existing constituency at 900,000, I
calculate that more than a ninth portion of them are work-
ing men. But the proposition that we make, and which, if
We go into committee, may be, I have no doubt, developed
with great advantage, will increase that number, because
by this bill we propose that the 40s. freehold shall, accord-
ing to the old custom of England again be found in the
borough. We propose that the possessor of money in a
savings bank shall be a voter, a qualification which has been
sneered at, but which, I believe, will at once bring 50,000
or 60,000 persons into the constituency—(cheers)—and
which, with some alteration, might be made still more ad-
vantageous. We propose these avenues to the constituency,
and I believe the result would be, that the working classes
would find their entrance into the constituent body greatly
facilitated. (Hear.) I won't touch at any length upon the
third objection to the bill—l allude to the alarm expressed
by the noble lord, and by others, that if our proposition be
entertained, electoral districts must be an inevitable conse-
quence. Now, when lam told that the difference between
£lO and £2O is our only security against electoral dis-
tricts, I confess I feel some alarm. I had an idea, that the
traditional feelings of Englishmen, the love of ancient land-
marks, that stronss spell of local associations, do greatly in-
fluence the people of this country, and that whether they live
in counties or in boroughs, they would certainly never be in-
duced to agree to an equal division of the soil for any elec-
toral purposes. (Hear.) But, admitting all the arguments
which have been urged upon that topic, they appear to me
to be equally applicable even to the existing system. That,
however, is a topic upon which I will not at present dwell.
Having thus noticed two heads of the resolution of the
noble lord, I have incidentally offered arguments upon the
principal features of the bill. I have shown to the house
that the bill is founded upon three principles, none of
which, let me remind the house, have been impugned in
this debate, and all of which I believe the majority of
this house approves. I believe the majority of the house
approves of a large extension of the constituent body. I
believe the majority of the house equally approves of the
direct representation of those communities that have grown
into importance since the Reform Act was passed. I be-
lieve that a large majority of the house is against any great
redistribution of seats, or dealing exclusively with the small
constituencies. (Hear, hear.) Well, then, these are the
principles of the measure, and we have a majority in favour
of them. I have shown you also that though the principles
of this measure are approved by the house, and though a
necessary consequence of that approbation would be that
the bill should be read a second time, we are diverted from
t tha issue by an amendment of the noble lord which touches
only two points of detail. I have shown to the house that
had we been in favour of a £2O franchise for counties it was
utterly impracticable to propose it. I have shown to the
house reasons of policy why we were in favour of adopting
a £lO qualification for counties, and that it was the best
security for preventing the reduction of the borough fran-
chise—a subject which cannot, in our opinion, be dealt
with slightly and gingerly, and which if you enter upon
will compel you not only to adopt the municipal suffrage,
as the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle pro-
poses, but at once to go down to household suffrage, and
to introduce that democratic element, the consequences of
which I have slightly traced. And I have shown to the
house, finally, that we have proposed the construction of a
constituent body which would have been numerous, but at
the same time elastic, and which from the material of which
it was formed would have afierded to all who were worthy
of the suffrage an admission—not too easy, butby no means
difficult—into the possession of that important privilege.
(Cheers.) Now, sir, how have we been met ? What is the
argument of the noble lord the leader of the Opposition on
this subject ? The noble lord approves the principles of
this measure. He has announced that he is in favour of
the second reading; but at the same time he will vote for a
resolution which we have declared is fatal to the bill. I
must say that I was astonished at the manner in which the
noble lord addressed us—(hear, hear)—and I think I may
express my surprise at the mode in which the Oppo-
sition on this subject has been conducted. I remember
when party feeling in this house was very 'high, which
fortunately it is not now ; I remember when parties were
nearly balanced, when the struggle for power was very
hot, and when the amount of exarcerbation out of doors,
from 1837 to 1841, was such as all must deplore. Between
1837 and 1841 no less than three votes of want of confidence
in the Ministry were proposed in this house; but I never
heard of a "contingent vote" of want of confideace being
proposed, and that by a near relative of a member of the
late Cabinet. (Hear, hoar.) Nor do I remember that in
those days the leader of the Opposition, and one who had
occupied the posts of high confidence which the noble lord
has enjoyed, ever told his opponents that if they counselled
their' Sovereign to exercise her prerogative he would him-
self stop the supplies, (Cheers.) This is so different, too,
from what one might have expected from the genial nature
of the noble lord—(a laugh)—that, enupled with the an-
nouncement and withdrawal of the vote of want of confi-
dence, I really must treat it altogether as a jest. (Cheers.)
Now, sir, I must say one word to the noble proser of this
amendment. We have heard in the course of this debate a
great deal about motives ; and I thought that it was unne-
cessary, because motives are really never imputed in Par-
liament, and, if anybody supposes that they are, it must be
some now member who is not sufficiently experienced in our
habits. (A laugh.) Rut I was astonished that it should for
a moment have been supposed that a gentleman like the
Solicitor-General should make use of an expression imputing
molivos to any, one, least of all to the noble lord, lam
sure that it is quite impossible for any gentleman upon
second thought to suppose that he could have so intended ;
and the Solicitor-General has this evening expressed what
he did mean so clearly, and the noble lord has received what
he said so gracefully, that it is unnecessary to dwell longer
upon that. (Hear.) I have no wish, no intention—from the
bottom of my heart I say it—to impute any motives to the
noble lord unworthy his character or his position. The
noble lord may not remember that when in 1854, not with-
cut emotion, at a moment of great personal distress, with-
drew his Reform Bill, and some reproaches awl some jeers
were not spared him fiimn hi.§ own aide, I offered to him the
unaffected tribute of the personal respect of the gentlemen
who then sat opposite to him. (Hear, hear.) 1 do not think
that there is a man who has sat long in this house but must
honour the character of the noble lord. I admire that cha-
racter. I admire his great Parliamentary talents. I admire
his ambition. (Hear, and a slight laugh.) But, Sir, it is
not wise in this house to scrutinise with too much severity
every act and every word of those who are entrusted with
the conduct of parties in this house. In the flame struggle
of public life, mind in the intense competition which prevails,
one on whom devolves the lead of a party is called on for
such constant action and such prompt decision that he must
indeed be a wise and favoured being who can look back to
everything that ho has done without regret, and who may
not have used words over which memory may mourn.
(Cheers.) But lam persuaded that neither the noble lord
nor any of his friends would desire that in this house there
sheald be any dinsinntien of that free and frank criticism
upon the eenduot of public men which has always been a i
part, and not the least valuable part, of our Parliamentary
life And manners. '1 herefore, I am sure that the noble lord
will not feel offended with me if I tell him that I think
there is one quality in his character which has rather
mama than made his fortune. It is a sort of restlessness
which will not brook delay and that patience which are
sometimes needed in our constitutional Government for the
conduct of public affairs. (Hear, hear.) The moment that
the noble lord is not in power he appears to me to live in
an atmosphere of coalitions, combinations, maps d'etat,
sad cunning resolutions . (Cheers and a laugh.) An ap-
propriation clause may happen to every man once in his
life. (Renewed cheers and laughter.) But there is only
one in.au living of whom it can be said than in 1835 ho over-

, --- - ---
threw the Government of Sir R. Peel upon an impracticable.
pieta 4t ; that in W. 32 he overthrew the Government of
Lord Derby with an objectless coalition ; that in 1855 he
overthrow the Government of Lord Aberdeen by a personal
covil'etat ; and that in 1857 he overthrew the Government
of the member for Tiverton by a Parliamentary manoeuvre.
(Che'ers,)
_Now, I Leg the noble lord at this moment to throw
the vision of his memory for an instant back to the year 1852.
He sat before me then, the head of a mighty host. Ho drew
the, fatal arrow that was to destroy oar Government. Ile
succeeded. He deStroyed in breatlless haste the •Govern-
:milt of Lora perby. Bost 4id. Lc -aastroy. anything else
Did he not 'destroy Also the position of a great statesman ? •
Did he not destroy almost the great historic party of which
ho. was once the proud and honoured chief ? (Cheers.) The
nobfe lord does not sit opposite me now ; but had he not
hurried the catastrophe.of 1852,
.and had he bided time •
aCcording to thy v./lodic habit of olir eenztitution, lie would
have returned to these benches the head of that great party
of which he was once the chief and greatest ornament.
What has the noble lord done now,and what is the moment
that he has chosen for this party attack—an attack which
it was not necessary to the vindication of his policy, or for
the assertion of those principles which Ibelieve he sinPorOY
holdsl.),l:o4# fqrwqr4 oil tile of 06-,i-orwuent

a me asure, founded on principle, for which fairplay and cus-
tom would have insured a second reading. The discussion
on 1 .he questions which the noble lord has thrust, as it were,
int o the Speaker's hand would, in the due course of Parlia-
mr routine, have been postponed yet for some time ;
bra t what is the moment which the noble lord has chosen to
pr 4 'cipitate this struggle ? It is the most critical in the his-
tor y of the affairs of this country which has existed for many
yes rs. (Hear.) The noble lord could not be ignorant of it.
He knows that some weeks ago I came down and informed
the .house that important negotiations were pending. He
has (tiler means of information beyond the communications
whic'a are made to this house by the servants of the Crown.
The noble lord, I doubt not, is well informed of the present
state of foreign affairs. He could not have been unmindful
of thorn even in that address on the introduction of his reso-
lution. which, though it related merely to domestic subjects,
furnisled the noble lord with an opportunity to cast a sneer
against that Minister to whom is entrusted at this moment
the mo. it awful responsibility that can be conceived . (Cheers.)
At a m oment when it was of vital importance that the autho-
ritz of the Government should not be assailed—at a moment
when, ,af all other men, the Minister for Foreign Affairs
should not be held up to public scorn—the noble lord chooses
such a moment for a party attack and a personal sneer.
(Cheer:;.) Sir, I should not be acting with frankness to the
house if I concealed from it that the • conduct of the noble
lord has been most embarrassing to the Government. (Loud
cheers.) I declare, upon my responsibility as a Minister,
that the conduct of the noble lord has produced injurious
effects upon the public service. (Renewed cheering.) I
have such confidence in the fidelity of our allies, I have such
confidence in the energy and resources of the colleague
against whom the noble lord directed his sneer, I have such
confidence, above all, in the patriotism of the House of
Commons, that I believe the division to-night will confound
the combinations of the noble lord and will assist and per-
haps ensure the peace of Europe. (Loud cheers.) The noble
lord,who on these occasions has the habit alwaysiof introduc-
ing the question of dissolution, told me the other night that
he was ready for the hustings, and that he should brandish
upon it the bill which I had introduced. In the office over
which it is my honour to preside, I have often the opportu-
nity of meeting- the prime and principal constituents of the
noble lord. Great merchants, manufacturers, bankers, men
of different opinions, agree in nothing else but in their readi-
ness at all times to assist the administration of the country.
(Hear, hear.) lam indebted, as my predecessors have been,
to their wise suggestions and to their zealous aid. But I can
tell the noble lord that when they come to me it is not
Parliamentary Reform after which they seek—(hear, hear)
—it is not financial interests which any longer concerns
them. What they say. is, " Please I Let the Government
give us peace, it is the only thing which we require. Our
energy is depressed, our enterprise is checked, but let the
Government secure peace, and then they will be entitled to
the gratitude and the confidence of their countrymen."
(Hear, hear.) Well, I thought we had secured peace. I
thought the time had arrived when I might have come
down to this house and told them that the dark disquietude
which for three months has hung over Europe had entirely
L passed away. But for this untoward and unhappy motion
of thenoble lord that might have been—(ironical cheers and
counter cheering)—and I tell the noble lord that when he
goes to the hustings of which he talks, and brandishes this
bill, he will find that the minds of his constituents are full
of another matter, and that they will demand from him the
reasons for the conduct which he has pursued. (Hear, hear.)
Sir, it is something more than a year ago since her Majesty
summoned Lord Derby to her councils. Lord Derby then,
as upon all other occasions, expressed to her Majesty his
readiness, as the last resource, to serve his Sovereign. But
he felt it his duty then to express to the Queen that his po-
sition in the House of Commons had been much weakened
by the last general election, and that he could not count in
the following of his friends on more probably than one-third
of the membrs of that house. Under these circumstances
Lord Derby humbly submitted his wish that her Majesty
would re-consider her intention and deign to pause before
her Majesty commanded him to undertake so difficult a
task. The Queen was graciously pleased to act upon that
suggestion, and did re-consider the subject. Her Majesty
surveyed the condition of her kingdom and of the empire
with that comprehensive and perfectly impartial spirit which
all who have served her Majesty know she ever exercises—
(hear, hear)—and it was under these circumstances, having
re-considered her position, that her Majesty deigned to sig-
nify to Lord Derby that she deemed it was his duty
to undertake the management of public affairs. Sir, we have
endeavoured, in pursuance of the commands of our Soye-
reign, to administer the business of this country. That we
have done so sedulously I presume to say. (" Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition.) That we have conducted' public
affairs not altogether without success I venture to believe.
(Cheers.) I kow that when we acceded to office there was
a great fear in the public mind that the country was not
defended as became her. I know now that the name of
England carries authority abroad, and that she can add to
negotiation all the influence which results from the con-
sciousness of power. (Cheers.) I know that when we
acceded to office there was great distress and depression in
men's minds ; there was the fear of increased taxation im-
pending, and the disappointment which resulted from the
apprehension that engagements for the reduction of the
national taxation would not be fulfilled. Yet the burdens
of the people have not been increased, the promises of re-
duction have been fulfilled, and the state of our revenue is,
in every sense, highly satisfactory. (Cheers.) With regard
to the more important branch of foreign affairs, I can say
truly, although we had an inheritance of trouble, and
although, probably, during the period of our official exist-
ence we have had as many difficulties to contend with as
could well fall to the lot of any Ministry—although during
the last three months the question of peace or war has some-
times appeared to be that only of a moment—still we have
so managed affairs that all immediate dangers seem to have
vanished, and there is a prospect of arrangements which,
if concluded, will, in my opinion, lead to a permanent and
a happy peace. (Cheers.) I have touched on our affairs
under these principal heads. I will not allude to others
of great but not of so great importance. We have endea.
voured to introduce measures which would Make law
reform not merely a mockery and a byword. (Hear,
hear.) If we are indebted for the pacification of India
to the wisdom of her ruler and the valour of her chief,
at least it must be acknowledged that the Adminis-
tration did support these men by sending out to
them, under great difficuties, such supplies of valiant sol-
diers as secured the triumphs which were achieved. (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord has talked, and he always does talk,
about a dissolution of the present Parliament. These are
words that cannot escape my lips, and I must, with the
permission of the house, refrain from touching upon such a
theme. But I may be permitted to say, in answer to the
noble lord, that, if in the course of time the present ser-
vants of the Queen find themselves upon the hustings be-
fore their constituents, I, for one, have that confidence in a
great and generous nation that I believe at such an hour
they will not forget the difficulties under which we under-
took the administration of affairs, nor perhaps be altogether
unmindful of what under such difficulties we have accom-
plished for their welfare. (Cheers.) It is by our conic.
tion in the justice of the people of England, it is beeP:use
we believe in the power of public opinion, that we have
been sustained in this house during our arduous struggle,
and are sustained, even at this moment, amid all the ma-
ncouvres of Parliamentary intrigue and all the machinations
of party warfare. (The right hon. gentleman resumed his
seat amid loud and prolonged cheering,)
It was now a quarter to one o'clock, and, the SPEAKER
having put the question, the house proceeded to a division.
The greatest excitement prevailed in all parts of the house.
Upwards of 600 members were present ; a considerable
number of distinguished persons occupied the seats assigned

to visitors on either side of the entrance behind the bar and
the gallery immediately over the clock ; while both the
Speaker's and Strangers' galleries were crowded with an
excited audience. Upward of 20 minutes were consumed
in taking the division, and as the moment for announcing
the result approached, the excitement rose to the highest
pitch. The great bulk of the members as usual, on returning
from the division lobbies, resumed their places on either side
of the chamber, but a large number of them had assembled
in a, douse orowd at the bar. At length the tellers made
their appearance, and then .there were cries of " Order,
o thecheer,lay,
wasseenin
toonthewhichtableside majoritys
in
anticipation of the actual result, rose from the Opposition
side,

The numbers were—
For the second reading of the bill
For Lord J. Russell's resolution.. 330

resolutionforthe As the numberslarijo u-etrey
announced the
39
house again rang
with a triumphant shout from the Opposition benches. It
, will be perceived by the division that 621 members were in
attendance--a number unprecedented, except on an extraor-
dinary occasion such as this.
After the a
resolution of Lord J. Russell,
and thereuiion
Mr. WYLD rose and said—l wish to add an amendment.
(Laughter, and cries of " Oh,
oh 1") It is " That at any
election of a member or members to serve in Parliament,
the votes shall be taken by ballot." (Cheers.) lam sure,
after the protracted debate which has just been brought .to
a termination, I shall best consult the convenience of the
house by not entering into the general question involved in
my amendment (" Hear hear," " Divide!" and a laugh.)
I
shall, therefore, at once move that the words I have read
be added to the resolution. (Cries of " Withdraw!" and
"Divide.")
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. H. BERKELEY--whose rising gave occasion for
some laughter arid cries of " Divide I"—said, Sir, as thi Lis
a question which I have taken a prominent part in advocat-
ing for many years past, I trust to the courtesy of hon.
members to allow me to address a few observations to the
house. First, I would request my hon. friend (Mri Wyld)
not to press his motion. Laughter and cheers.) Sr (cries
of " Divide!" a laugh, and "Go on. I")—I have always
consulted those honourable gentlemen who( th a done me
the honour to place me in the front he -
battle in
this question as to the mode in which
it should be
brought forward; and I find it is the general opinion of the
will it
leading men of that particular party thatbe detri •
mental to the ballot to introduce it to the house in this
manner. It is not, however, in deference to any man or any
set of men that I have come to the conclusion that this is
not the time or the occasion for propounding it. (A laugh.)
I do not think a man is called on to support any question,
however important, if he be of opinion that it is brought
forward in an improper manner. (Divide.) If my hon.
friend will give notice of a substantive motion on this ques-
tion, it shall have my cordial support. (Divide.) But if
he persists in dividing now, I will certainly not „,,o into the
same lobby with him. I will not vote against the ballot,
but I will certainly withdraw from the house. I entreat the
lion. gentleman not to place this question in this disadvan-
' tao-eouu,s position. (Hero the hon. member turned round
to the hon. member for I3odmin, and addressed several ob-
servations to him at the top of his Voice, but amid such in-
cessant cries of " Divide, divide !" that his remarks were
inaudible.)
_ _ _

. .
Mr.' M. GIBSONSir, it appears to me that to com-
mence the discUssion of such an important question at such
a moment as this would be perfectly unprecedented. (Cries
of " Oh!" and interruption.) lam in favour of the ballot
(Divide, divide) but I respectfully submit to my hon.
friend that the best mode of submitting the question of the
ballot to the house will be to give notice. (Interruption,
Cries of "Now," and " Divide.") If he wants to obtain the
least possible support, he will go to a division now.
(Divide.) As a friend of the ballot I trust he will not call
fbr a division. If he does, I for ono will not go into the
lobby with him
Here Mr. Bum= and other hon. members surrounded
Mr. WILD, and endeavoured, apparently without effect, to
Lhako hiti resolution.
Mr. CLAY rose amid loud cries of " Divide," which were
renewed as often as ho aAempted to make himself -heard.
All that could be made out was that the hon. member moved
the adjournment of the debate! (Divide, divide.)
Sir J. V. SHELLEY next rose, and was greeted with
deafening cries of "Oh;" And "Divide." The hon. gentle-
man sat down without being able to gain a hearing.
Lord. J. RVSSELL then rose and addressed the house