The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-01 00:00:00

her maritime supremacy. (Cheers.) Not one word had
ever fallen from his lips in that house to lead any one to

suppose that he desired to see any Power superior to Eng-
land on the ocean. (Hear.) On the contrary, he had said

over and over again that on account of our vast possessions
and our enormous wealth always afloat, England ought to
be equal to France and any other naval Power in Europe
combined. (Cheers.) But he had shown to the house that
in efficient ships of war—steamships—England possessed
more than all the nations in Europa. He said that we pos-
sessed 20 line-of-battle ships, and his noble friend the Se-
cretary to the Admiralty admitted that we possessed 17
line-of-battle ships more than all the other nations put to-
gether. Setting aside the vessels which Admiral Elliot
said he had seen within the last fortnight, and of which no
trace was to be found a month ago, France had six iron-

cased vessels, mounting from 36 to 5'2 guns each. The two
terrible vessels with which the right hon. baronet had
frightened the house were the Magenta and the Solferino.

They were line-of-battle ships cut down and cased with
iron. (Admiral Walcott—Not cut down.) Well, then, not

cut down. The right hon. baronet said they mounted 26
guns on each side.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—What I said was that they were
pierced to carry 100 guns each. But they had 26 guns on
each side under armour of the full thickness.

Mr. LINDSAY said it was no new information, and the
right hon. baronet must know that those two vessels were
not at all to be compared with the Warrior and Black
Prince. Altogether France had six iron-cased vessels, two

of a large size, three mounting 36 guns, and one mounting
40 guns. We had seven iron-cased vessels built and
building. If they took the Gloire, the Invincible, or
the Normandie, and compared them with the Black
Prince and Warrior, why the Warrior was double the size
of the Gloire, and would carry double the weight of metal.

It was the same with the Black Prince. These vessels were
double the size, So that, in fact, in iron-cased vessels we had
more of superior size and power than France now possessed.
There was nothing to justify the right hon. baronet in ask-
ing the house to spend more money. The right hon.baronet,

however, came down and made a statement which must ex-
cite unnecessary alarm in the minds of the people, and was

likely to lead us into trouble with the Emperor of the French,
whigh he was sure the right hon. gentleman was as anxious

as any man to avoid. The right hon. baronet should bear
in mind that while it was necessary to have a sufficient

naval force to maintain our position as the first maritime
nation in the world, if we built more ships than were neces-

sary, France would go on building more, and then we must
go on building more ships, thus entailing on the people of
both countries unnecessary alarm and an unnecessary
amount of taxation. (Cheers.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that the statements of the
right hon. baronet were more alarming when they reflected
that the Government,in the face of information to the same
effect, had been voting away money which,before the end of
the Session, they would be obliged, in one way or other, to
replace. (Hear, hear.) The house must bear in mind that
they were dealing,not with mere suppositions, but with fact.
A British Admiral of the highest standing in the service
had visited some of the French dockyards, and had made a
report which ought justly to alarm the Government and
the people of this country. Evidence had been giv©n that
day before a Select Committee of which he was a member
—(Order.) On the 4th of May, 1858, the keel of the first
iron ship was laid in France, and Admiral Elliot told them
that there were now thirteen frigates and two line-of battle
ships in a forward state of construction. A two-decker
ship was a most formidable antagonist to any frigate,
more especially as the former, from their size, would be
capable of carryim: ordnance of the same power as the
Warrior, and of giving a double broadside. He hoped
that the Government would lose no time in instituting a

thorough investigation into this subject. A committee com
posed of men of science was now engaged in an inquiry as
to the power of resistance of iron plates, and the genera
applicatiOn of iron to shipbuilding, and would soon be able
to furnish very valuable information, on that subject. He
suggested that the Government should add to that commit-
tee a number of gentlemen of known attainments in metal-
lurgy and the science of ordnance, in order that they might
investigate the whole question, and ascertain how our navy
might most speedily and effectually be placed on an equality
with that of France. (Hear.)
Mr. D A LGLISH said that the dockyards of France were
by no means in the state of activity which had been de-
scribed that night when he visited them lately. He depre-
cated the continuance of such discussions, and suggested
that the Government had better send a committee over to
inquire into the state of the French navy. (A laugh.) Ho
was sure the French Government would afford every facility
for the investigation, and had no doubt that the committee
would make a report very different from the speech of the
right hon. baronet. (Hear.)
Lord C. PAGET—Sir, I cannot but agree with the hon.
member for Glasgow, that these periodical discussions on
the armaments of France are very unadvisable. (Hear,
hear.) It is perfectly true that the French are making
considerable progress in regard to iron-cased ships.
Whin the last few months they have either laid down or
have prepared to lay down nine iron ships. Ido not sup-
pose that my right hon. friend desires to create unneces-
sary alarm ; but he spoke of these ships, as the hon. mem-
ber for Sunderland observed, as if they were growing up
like mushrooms. The French are really not using any
undue exertions at present in their dockyards. (Hear.)
They pay undoubtedly great attention to their navy ; they
have vast dockyards and a large establishment of artificers,
and they are constantly building ships. Of late years they
have bestowed undivided attention on this new class of
very powerful vessels. But we have no reason to suppose
that we are going to be suddenly overwhelnied with a great
fleet of these iron ships, although I dare say that in
two or three years they will have made great progress. I
have no doubt that my friend Admiral Elliot, whose great
merits as an officer I gladly acknowledge, has made a faith-
ful report of what he saw across the Channel. I think, how-
ever, that my right hon. friend has somewhat misunderstood
Admiral Elliot's views in regard to these iron ships. [Sir J.
Pakington—Not at all.] I also had a conversation with that
officer on the subject. (Hear.) Now, it is perfectly true that
the Magenta and Solferino are pierced with 100 ports ; but
it does not follow that either will mount 100 guns. Indeed,
I cannot conceive it possible that either can do so. They have
not sufficient flotation for anything like that quantity of
ordnance. The Warrior is termed a 40-gun ship, bat if we
were to put guns in all her ports fore and aft she would
number double as many. lam sure it would be very un
wise to arm those ships with more guns than they can carry
in their casemated batteries. The Magenta and Solferino
carry 52 guns apiece, while the Warrior carries only 40;
but then our ships are intended to mount 100 lb. Armstrong
guns. Ido not believe that the French ships are calculated
to carry those guns, for they are not so large or powerful as
our own. I would rather avoid at this moment entering into
too great details as to our shipbuilding operations. I pur-
posed making a statement of the intentions of the Govern-
ment on that head when I again brought forward the navy
estimates. I may, however, say now that the Government
have been watching with considerable interest the proceed-
ings of other countries in this matter, and have determined
to build five additional iron-cased wooden ships in our dock-
yards. We have not made any addition to the estimates on
that account. We have frames of timber cut outfor line-of-
battle ships, and by giving them additional flotation and
length we shall render them capable of carrying a power-
ful armament. When cased with iron these vessels will
be of a f vmidable character. With respect to what fell
from the honourable and gallant admiral the member for
Portsmouth, I have no doubt we may expect to derive
from the labours of the committee to which he has re-
ferred some very interesting results as to the best means
of making iron-cased ships. I will not now further
enter into the subject, but will simply say that very shortly
we may expect some advantageous results from recent ex
periments which will be of great advantage to us in con-
sidering the mode of construction of iron-cased ships. I
think the house will excuse me for entering further into
detail upon the present occasion. (Hear.)
THE APPOINTMENT OF GENERAL EDEN.
Mr. CONINGHAM rose to call attention to a subject
which had excited much public attention, the appointments
of colonels of regiments. He wished to avoid instancing
particular cases or mentioning particular names, but if the
principle of promotion by selection were adopted he thought
the selection should be based upon public services. There
had been much dissatisfaction expressed at the mode in
which the appointments to colonelcies of regiments had been
made. He would not refer to any particular case, but would
ask the Under-Secretary for War what was the principle
upon which those appointments were made, and why, in the
last appointment that had taken place, the services ren-
dered by several officers had apparently been overlooked by
the authorities at the Horse Guards ?
Mr. T. G. BARING said as no notice of the question had
been given, it would have been more satisfactory if the hon.
member had stated to what appointment he took exception.
Mr. CONINGHAM—The appointment of Gen. Eden.
Mr. BARING was able, even without notice, to satisfy
the house that the appointment 4pf Major-Gen. Eden was
justified by the facts of the case. It had been alleged against
that appointment that Major-General Eden was a Guards-
man, that he had never seen foreign service, and was ap-
pointed out of due order. Those statements were incorrect.
General Eden was not a Guards' officer. He had served
in the West Indies in command of his regiment, and so far
from being appointed out of turn, he had been several
times passed over as colonel by officers who were his juniors,
but who had the good fortune of seeing more service than
he had. That appointment was, therefore, perfectly justifi •
able. The appointments to the colenelcies of regiments
were made upon the recommendation of the Commander-in-
Chief. It was assumed that officers of good service, al-
though they might not have seen distinguished service,
should not be passed over, but that officers of very distin-
guished service should be selected for those appointments
before officers who had not had the same opportunities
for distinguishing themselves. It would be found that
in recommending officers for those appointments the Com •
manger-in-Chief had always acted with strict justice,
and he,believed that suoh was the general opinion of the
service.
The house then went into committee.
THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
£2,200,000 was proposed for army stores.
Sir F. SMITH thought another committee should le
appointed to test the respective merits of the Enfield and
Whitworth rif.es, It was quite unaccouAtable that a com-