The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-20 00:00:00

CHURCH RATES.

The Duke pf MARLBOROUGH gave notice that on
Friday next he should introduce a bill to amend the law re-
lating to Church Rates.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following bills were read a second time :—Aloa Rail.
way, Bonelli's Electric Telegraph, Clitheroe Gas, Corn-
wall Railway, Dewsbury and Batley Gas; Dumfries, Loch-
maben, and Lockerby Junction Railway (Deviation) ; Dum-
blane; Doune, and Callendar Railway ; Edinburgh, Perth,
and Dundee; Grand Junction Water; Kinross-shire Rail-
way, North British and Peebles Railway, Portsea Gas,
South Essex Water, Southwark and Vauxhall Water, &c.
INDICTABLE OFFENCES (METROPOLITAN DIS-
TRICTS) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
FICTITIOUS SAVINGS' BANKS.
This bill also passed through committee.
CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
THE WAR IN CHINA.

I Earl GREY rose to move that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty for copies or extracts of any
despatches received by her Majesty's Government explain-
ing the objects of an expedition reported to have been
ordered to proceed up the Yang-tze-kiang, and to call the
attention of the house to the papers relating to
China laid before it by the command of her
Majesty. He said, in moving for the papers mentioned, he
had no intention of pressing for them if the Government
opposed the motion for their production. His great
object was to bring the subject of China before their
lordships for discuss:on, and had any other noble lord in-
timated that he intended to bring the subject forward he
should not have taken upon himself to do so. He
did not propose to dilate upon the disasters at
the mouth of the Peiho, nor upon the events which
might have happened had that catastrophe been avoided, but
what he wished to do was to call attention to the present
condition of our relations with China, and in acquiting
himself of the task it would be necessary; for him to
look back on the history of our past intercourse with China.
When China was originally opened to our commerce, the
spur given to trade was great, though not so
great as had been expected. In the beginning of his
remarks he must say that he considered the Eng-
lish Government had no; more right to interfere with
the regulations of trade laid down in China, any
more than it had to interfere with those of France or
Spain. For a time all things went on quietly,
but at last a circumstance occurred by which we
considered ourselves justified in forcing a change, and by
force and corruption we re-established a large smuggling
trade in 'opium. At the conclusion of the Chinese war
large concessions had to be made by the Chinese,
and as we had completely subdued them, they
had to accept any terms that might be dictated to
them. In consequence of the large concessions
that had been obtained by treaty, traffic in opium
had been resumed, and ever since it had been re-
garded as a regular article of commerce by the Bri-
tish Government. The whole of the trade of China
became in consequence demoralised, and no attempt
to correct abuses was made, but, on the contrary,
the consuls vied with each other in their efforts
to impose their frauds on. the Chinese Government.
But a much worse trade had sprung up, he referred to the
trade in Coolies. The Coolie trade had been vigorously
carried on, and a system of gambling had been carriel to
an extent that many unfortunate Coolies had gambled
away their liberty. In one case a widow was possessed of
two children; the son gambled away his liberty, and the
mother, anxious to redeem her son, actually sold her other
child, a daughter; but when she went to release her boy
she found he had been shipped to a European colony.
Lord Grey then endeavoured to prove that our policy in
China had injuriously affected our pecuniary interests, argu-
ing that the state of anarchy and rebellion, which checked
all internal commerce and communication in China, and
the smuggling and piracy on her coasts, dated from the
treaty of Nankin and the opium war. Judging from the
past, ho said it was impossible not to perceive that the re-
cent treaty exacted by Lord Elgin was a further step in the
wrong direction, and would produce like results. At the
conclusion of the opium war, when the Chinese resources
were unimpaired, we had required only £3,000,000, but
now, after a long rebellion and a costly war, we asked
£5,300,000. How was this sum to be paid without weak-
ening the Chinese Government so much that the empire
must at last collapse—a result by no means desirable
even from a low point of view, that of interest ? The
object of the expedition up the Yang-tse was to
overawe the rebels, but in doing so the Government
would be trying to stop abuses which they themselves had
fostered, and he warned them that their efforts would be
useless unless they were prepared to maintain a large and
permanent military force in China. The treaty which had
been concluded with China by Lord Elgin contained the
germs of future difficulties, and he feared of future wars;
and he begged their lordships to consider the matter seri •
ously, the more so as the same events were likely to take
place in Japan, where similar abuses existed. This country.
he asserted, might, had a different policy been pursued,
have obtained, without war or violence, the means of car-
rying on a large and profitable commerce with China. As
it was, we had inflicted the horrors of war on the Chinese
at an enormous expense to ourselves, and left our trade on
even a more precarious footing than it was before. In con-
clusion he expressed his regret that we had not, before act-
ing in conjunction with the French, ascertained whether
the French grievance was a just one.
Lord WODEHOUSE said he would offer some remarks
upon certain portions of the noble earl's speech ; and, first,
he would observe that he had no objection to the production
of the papers moved for, and to lay them,'or extracts from
them, upon the table of their lordships' house. As to any in-
terference on the part of this country in the insurrection in
China, Lord Elgin had said that he would not at all inter-
fere in the quarrel that was going on between the insur-
gents and the Imperial Government, except for the purpose
lof making arrangements with regard to trade. That inti-
mation had been conveyed to the Imperial Government,
and no objection had been made to Lord Elgin doing so.
With reference to what the noble earl had said about
the Treaty of Nankin in 1842, he must say that the noble
earl had given an exaggerated statement of the conse-
quences, and had not taken into account the difficulties
they had to contend with, for the Government of this
country had done their best to carry out the provisions of
that treaty in a proper spirit. The first point in the Treaty
of Nankin was with reference to the question of opium.
Practically it was inevitable that the opium traffic must be
carried on in China, and he believed that the regulations
under which it was now legalised were the best that could
be framed. As to the customs duties; that was a very
embarrassing question. We were bound by the Treaty of
Nankin to assist the Chinese Government in enforcing the
duties payable by our merchants ; whereas other nations
would undertake no such obligations, and the consequence
was that a system of inequality was established, which
became intolerable. Unscrupulous men evaded the pay-
ment of the duty, whilst honest English merchants paid it,
- and were thereby placed in a position in which they could
not carry on their trade with advantage. We therefore
took measures, first at Shanghae, and afterwards at other
ports, by means of the foreign inspectorships, to enforce
the payment of these duties, the collection of which was
superintended by Chinese officials net in any way depen-
dent upon foreign Governments. Under these regulations,
as Mr. Bruce had pointed out, the Chinese Government
had received no less a sum than a million pounds sterling.
As to the noble earl's charge, that our consular establish-
ment had not done their duty previous to the establishment
of these inspectorships, he quoted from a despatch from Mr.
Bruce, in which that gentleman stated that "Her Majesty's
consuls had omitted no effort to insure thepayment of these
duties by imposing fines upon British merchants who
omitted to do so—a system by which he incurred the odium
of our fellow-countrymeir by inflicting penalties on them to
which the subjects of other Governments were not liable."
(Hear.) More than this we could not do. We could riot
make the Chinese Government strong and incorrupt.
(Hear.) Ho agreed with the noble earl as to the iniquities
of the emigration system, but the Government had done
what it could to put an end to the system of kidnapping
which was going on, and which was gradually irritating the
Chinese population against us, and their efforts had not been
without some success. Mr. Austin, a gentleman well ac-
quainted with emigration to the West Indies, was sent out,
and under his judicious superintendence an excellent sys-
tem had been organised. This system secured the confi-
dence of the population, and whole families now emigrated,
including some 300 or 400 women, who never before could
be got to emigrate at all. These women wore moreover of
the respectable class. All this was done, not merely with
the approbation of the people, but with the full consent of
the Chinese authorities, and an end was put to the systematic
kidnapping. The Government should be extended to other

ports than Canton, and with that view had communicated
with other European Governments, and with the Govern-
ment of the United States. This was one of the most im-
portant points of the Chinese question, and should there be
any Government refusing to co-operate with us he must say
that a grave responsibility would rest upon it for baying