The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-08 00:00:00

troubled with cases from that country. In an act of last
session, relating to the Divorce Court, he introduced an
amendment that persons in Ireland might come to the
Divorce Court if they chose, and it met with approbation in
their lordships' house, but was struck out in the Commons.
He trusted that the noble and learned lord in his proposed
bill would give power to any person in Ireland who chose
to go to the Divorce Court instead of coming to that house.
The Earl of WICKLOW fully concurred with his noble
friend, and he hoped the noble and learned lord on the wool-
sack would consider the suggestion. He thought that the
amendment in question, which lad met with so much ap-
probation from their lordships, had become law, and he now
heard for the first time that it was rejected by the other house.
He thought the jurisdiction of the court should be extended
to Ireland, and that it was better that persons should come
from Ireland to the court than that a similar one should be
created in Ireland.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that if he thought that
this course was desired In Ireland he would cheerfully adopt
the suggestion. He should be glad to throw open the court
to all the classes of persons that had been mentioned.
After a few words from Lord DENMAN the subjec
dropped.

Government with various steam packet companies
for tho conveyance of the mails beyond the limits
of the United Kingdom ; and likewise into any agree-
ments or other arrangements which have been adopted at
the public charge, actual or prospective, for the purposes
of telegraphic communications beyond sea, and to report
their opinion thereon to the house ; together with any re-
commendations as to rules to be observed hereafter by the
Government in making contracts for services which have
not yet been sanctioned. by Parliament, or which extend
over a series of years ; power to report from time to time.
He said he did not suppose it was the wish of the house
that he should enter at great length upon the details of the
consideration which had induced her Majesty's Govern-
ment to think that it would be unwise to invite the House
of Commons to appoint this committee. He should confine
himself to stating in a few words the reasons, which were
of a general character. A considerable number of years ago
the practice of granting subsidies for terms of years for
what might be called ocean service and steam packet com-
panies arose, having at that period in a great degree the
character en experiment, and having in view besides the
performance of packet service upon a scale that was alto-
gether novel, and likewise having in view, as might be in
the recollection of many hon. members, adoption of
means which would aid in the defence of the country in
case of an emergency arising. The demand for the multi
plication of these services progressively extended, and a
very considerable charge was speedily brought upon the
estimates, so that what might be called ocean postage, in-
stead of being, like the postal service within the limits of
the United Kingdom, a source of considerable revenue to
the State, besides affording great accommodation to the pub-
lic, was, on the contrary, not only absorbed, but a consider-
able burden was thrown upon the people of this country.
He held in his hand the estimate for the present year. It
amounted to £988,488, or in round numbers a million of
money, a considerable portion of which was not recovered by
the sum received for the postage of letters. Now, there
were two questions of policy involved in this proceeding ;
but the first proposition which he should submit to the
house was, he should think, an ample justification for the
motion he had brought forward. It was this, that inasmuch
as these proceedings had been taken by the Executive Go-
vernment, as they had not rested on any one definite set of
rules, and as at the same time they had been taken in anti-
cipation of the judgment of the house, he did not wish to
cast the slightest censure upon any government ; and, in-
deed, as far as he had examined the matter, he thought the
censure, if any, mustapply to all the governments that had
existed the last 12 or loyears—the practical effect had been
to oust the House of Commons from its jurisdiction over a
very important and extensive, and he might add a very cri-
tical description of public expenditure. Then, again, the
Government had not only been without the guidance of a
well-ascertained public opinion, and it had been all along a
matter very much controverted among intelligent and well
informed persons sometimes whether subsidies ought to
have been resorted to at all, or whether they had not been
continued for a longer time than necessity and public ex-
pediency pointed out. In consequence there had been very
great jealousy on the part of private traders who had not en-
joyed the benefit of these public subventions, and without
at all pretending to assert that these jealousies were well
founded, he thought itwas obviousthat by the institution cf
a well selected committee they would probably arrive at one
of two results. They might find either that those jealousies
had been well founded, and that contracts had been entered
into very needlessly ; on the other hand they might find
that the public advantage and public policy had been ably
consulted in all the measures that had been taken. The
examination of the question would materially tend to re-
move dissatisfaction. In the year 1853, at the time when
the Government of Lord Aberdeen took office, and when he
must admit the disposition, both on the part of the public
and of the house with regard to public expenditure was not
I absolutely what it now is, his right hon. friend the member
for Carlisle, then First Lord of the Admiralty, and himself
holding the office he had now the honour to fill, was some-,
what alarmed at the extent to which the charge for ocean
postage had then arrived. It was then he thought £830,000,
and her Majesty's Government appointed a commission for
the purpose of examining into the whole question, and of
making suggestions with regard to the policy thereafter to
be pursued. On the commission they had the advantage of
the services of Lord Canning, and of his hon. friend opposite
(Sir Stafford Northcote), and his right hon. friend behind
him, the member for Hertford, who at the time held office
under the Crown. The general effect of the report of the
commission was that the hands of' the Government were to a
great extent tied by the nature of the contracts that existed,
yet that something might be done for the alleviation of the
charge. He had no doubt that the report of that commis-
sion tended to give satisfaction both to the House of Com-
mons and to those who entertained jealous feelings out of
doors. But the course of their subsequent proceedings had
not borne out the expectation that that report held out. On
the contrary, the charge had increased from £830,000 to
nearly a million ; nor did that million at all express the
maximum, if they were to continue the present system. On
the contrary, as known to the house, a contract had been
recently concluded with a new steam packet company for
an American service which would involve the payment of a
sum, commencing next year, of £75,000 a year ; and various
parties had been before the Treasury in answer to an invi-
tation that was some time ago issued, though it did not in-
volve a pledge, on the subject of another line. Australia,
which was now supplied by the Red Sea, was likewise de-
sirous of having a communication across the Isthmus of
Panama. Without being able to state the precise sum that
would be required if that line of steamers were established,
it would lead to a further and great additional charge. Nor
was this all, because undoubtedly the effect of our policy
had been to create all over the world where British shipping
was established, where there were British interests or Bri-
tish settlements, a confident and sanguine expectation that
the purse of the British public would be available for the
purpose of supplying them with regular and expensive post-
age communication. (Hear, hear.) And this impression
was gaining ground from year to year, so that unless the.
House of Commons was to take serious cognizance of the
subject, they had only to continue in the present course, and
they would find that that which was now merely in expece
tation, would have hardened into a principle, and an abso-
lute dogma, which he might almost say no Parliament would
be able to resist. Under these circumstances he wouldnot say
what policy should be pursued, as he would not prejudice the
general question, but it was plain that on every principle t hat
ought to regulate th e public expenditure, and ought to impress
upon the House of Commons a jealousy of its privileges,
the time had come when this matter should be abbe
jetted on the part of the louse of Commons to a careful exa-
mination. He did not think it necessary to add anything to
what he thus briefly stated as the general reasons for the
appointment of this committee. If the committee were ap-
pointed it would be the endeavour of the Government, and
ho hoped they would receive every assistance from others, to
select the names of those who were to form it with a view of
securing as far as possible all the objects of a just, impartial
and thorough-going inquiry. As to the scope of the com-
mittee, the words that he had draWn had been intended to
make the inquiry as wide as possible. Indeedle ventured
to propose, if there was no objection, a verbal amendment
which would have the effect of making it a little wider. It
was limited as it now stood to steam packet companies for
the conveyance of mails beyond the limits of the United
Kingdom. He thought it better to say the conveyance
of the mails by sea, which would include the conveyance of
the mails between Holyhead and Dublin. Of course it was
not necessary for him to say' that Parliament might be
assured that a committee of the House of Commons, in in-
vestigating this subject, would conduct its investigation sub-
ject to the restraints which might be imposed by considera-
tions of good faith as well as public policy. At the same
time he apprehended it would be the duty of the committee
to examine carefully into every transaction which had been
concluded, and which might from its nature appear to be
illustrative of the general subject, or present considerations
of importanc,e. He took leave to mention the intention of
Government, in answer to a question that was put the other
day with regard to a contract recently concluded for convey-
ing the mails from Galway to St. John's, Newfoundland.
He had no doubt that that matter would attract the attention
of the committee; and although the arrangements were con-
eluded so fax as to bind her Majesty's Government, those
arrangements might be said in some degree to be in embryo.
He did not doubt that they would attract the early atten-
tion of the committee, but at the same time he would say
that the committee would not be appointed with any exclu-
sive, he might say with any special, relation to those ar-
rangements ; and, Latin:mei it'Would-be. their diity 'to ad-
eider everything relating to them, yet it would likewise
have been the duty of th Government to propose the ap-
pointment of this committee, if the contract for a steam, ser-
vice between Galway and St. John's had not been made.
Mr. H. HERBERT said it was not his intention to
trouble the house with any remarks upon the subject, but
he would say a few words in relation to the extension of the
inquiry, so as to inu'ude the contract for the steam packets
between Dublin and Holyhead. He had the honour of being
chairman of the committee on postal communication with
Ireland, and while it was sitting he had communications
from a vast number of persons connected with Ireland, and
he could assure the right hon. gentleman that the interest
felt in the subject in Ireland was most intense. Great satis-
faction was manifested when their demands were conceded,
which would be followed by corresponding disappointment
if it was understood in that country that it was intended to
reopen the question.
Sir S. NORT LICOTE entirely concurred in the motion,
and no doubt the same feeling would pervade all the mem-
bers of the late Government. There was no indisposition on
his part to enter into a full discussion on all the matters that
had been alluded to, but it was far more convenient that
they should take the course proposed by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. It was quite true that the report of the commis-
sion held out a hope that something would be done to i-e-
-duce the charge. In the report they entered generally into
the principle on which
packet services ought to be con=
ducted, and on which the Government ought to subsidise
lines. The general view was that the packet service was one
that ought to be carried on by government, and that it should
be carried on by contract. They also determined that in
considering what lines should be Started, reference should be
had to the circumstances of the line not merely in a postal
point of view, but in a local, social, and political point of
view. But though they thought it well at the commencement
of a line to grant subsidies, it was questionable whether it
was well to continue them. They also considered whether it
was advisable to make packet ships available for war
purposes, and they thought that it was. They also thought
they should endeavour to try. the experiment whether it was
best to have contracts for long or for short periods, even
contracting for a single voyage. That was tried, and the re-
sult was that the expenditure was lessened until it was re •
duced to about £750,000 a year ; but in the year 1857, when
the Government of the noble lord opposite was in power,
this system was, for reasons which he dared say were good
serviceonem jautemripalledyualptiern eodn,eaynd eartromexxpe7nsdoixetuoroetfoorath23e,opoaock,
oert
thereabouts. They had had considerable experience of the
effect of short contracts, and especially to Australia, and it
was not found satisfactory. The colonies complained, and
the Government of the day thought it necessary to revert in
some measure to the old system, and establish a regular
packet service. Since that time various additions had been
made to the packets, until the expenditure amounted to the
sum that had been named. He was glad, therefore, that
they were going to consider the subject fully. In the report
of the committee they speculated on the possibility of a war.
That which was then a speculation became a matter of fact.
They had had a war, and in that war they SAW the great
advantage of having a largo supply of steam packets for the
conveyance of troops and stores. He had no doubt that that
in
nams oankeinogf
ttilLetreenansosnafs forthe revertingreferenee toas the
dolads system. He
thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer was perfectly right
e
which
qch
contractso m thought
nut
toge
the
had
st
wasa
dt
th
oebyte
he wne,
directedel
manner,
ee
arnnmont
formed
deri
beghnuwetnr
easoshwitornou etticodhe quite
tiehvlieei)kdrmanner
n:wideaoctrni
eernp
postage,
have
eeorssut
ai
nogngh
the contracts had been formed, which was the rpeaols''qibu which
lees'tbiount
at issue. The commission 011853 endeavoured to find out the
cost after deducting the amount and
they came to the conclusion that about £500,000 out Of the
£853,000 was re-paid in postage, leaving ti-e net expenditure
£353,00. Therewlaasid wnandoothertpohe principleint. The right
thighatthtohne lo.cgoenntliees-
man opposite had
should be called upon to bear one-half of this exp9nditure,
and he drew up an able minute on the subject. Circum-
stances had as yet prevented them from taking advantage
of it, and no money, or very little, had yet been received
from the colonies on this account. He hoped they would be

CHURCH RATES.
The select committee agreed to on a pi evious evening was

nominated.

IRISH MILITIA.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to put a ques-
tion, of which he had given notice, as to whether it was the
intention of her Majesty's Government to embody any por-
tion of the militia of Ireland in the event of there being no
establishment of volunteer rifle corps in that country ? It
appeared from what passed in the House of Commons that
the Government had made up their minds not to move at the
present moment in the establishment of rifle corps for Ire-
land • and remembering what took place last year in the
north of Ireland, he thought their determination was per-
fectly right. He wished, however, to impress upon. the
Government the necessity of making provision for the mili-

Tdefence of that country
he Duke of CLEVELAND considered that if any add
tienal regiments of militia were to be embodied, England had
quite as strong a claim as Ireland. He did not wish to de-
tract from the merits of the proposed rifle clubs, but it was
absurd to suppose that they could be in any way regarded as
a substitute for a militia or a regular military force. He had
no objection to an increase in the embodied militia of Ire-
land, but contended that the same advantage ought to be ex-
tended to this country. A commission had been appointed
to inquire into the militia system generally, and he thought
it highly desirable that theirreport sit ould bepresented as early
as possible. At present that system was open to objection in
many respects, and he instanced as one defect the practice of
paying a bounty to militiamen on joining the regular army
equal to that which ordinary volunteers received on enlist-
ment, in addition to the bounty to which they were entitled
on entering the militia. He was not one of those who anti-
cipated invasion or a French war—on the contrary, he
looked upon both the one and the other as most improbable;
but that was no reason why we should not arm in every
possible way to make the defences of the country as perfect
as possible.
Lord HARDINGE thought, until the report of the com-
mission was before their lordships, it was superfluous to
discuss the question. He trusted that when that report
was presented, the Government would be prepared to take
steps to carry out such improvements as might be shown to
be necessary.
The Earl of BANDON called attention to the insuffi-
cient defences of Cork and the south-west coast of Ireland,
and reminded the house that Bandon was no better pro-
tected now that when the French effected a landing there
in the year 1797.
The Earl of RIPON observed that the noble marquis
had been correctly informed that the Government had no
present intention of extending the organisation of rifle
corps to Ireland, and for two reasons,—first, that no appli-
cation had been made for that purpose from the sister king-
dom ; and secondly, because the act under which volunteer
corps could be raised in Ireland differed materiallyfrom the
act under which such corps could be raised in this coun-
try ; and before anything could be done, it would be neces-
sary that those differences should be removed by a legisla-
tive enactment. In answer to the noble marquis's ques-
tion, he had to reply that the Government did not propose
to embody any fresh regiments of militia in Ireland. It
was determined at the beginning of the year by the late
Government,'that certain regiments both in England and
Ireland, which were embodied, should be disembodied, as
regiments of the line arrived home from India to take their
places. Subsequently, however, the state of affairs induced
them to abandon that intention, and the present Govern-
ment proposed in this respect to follow in the steps of their
predecessors. (Hear, hear.) It should be borne in mind
that while volunteer rifle corps occasioned very little
charge upon the public, the expense of embodied militia
regiments was very considerable, and the Government, not
being of opinion that any additionto the number of embodied
regiments was requisite at present had come to the deter-
mination which he had already stated. This decision, how-
ever, was by no means consequent upon any disregard of
the military wants of Ireland, which he could assure noble
lords commanded the constant attention of the Govern-
ment, who would neglect no necessary means of placing
that country in an efficient state of defence. He believed
the report of ;the commission which had been referred to
would soon be presented, and then the question of the mi-
litia generally might be discussed: With regard to the
observations of the noble lord opposite (Bandon), he would.
add that the defences of the south and west coast of Ireland
would receive the same attention as the defences of every
other part of the country.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE could see no reason
why rifle clubs should not be established in Ireland as well
as in England. He had no fears of invasion, at the same
time he thought every precaution ought to be taken to
place the country in the most perfect state of defence. He
did not look for any very valuable conclusions in the report
of the commission, and was therefore in favour of entering
into the consideration of the question at once as to how far
the present system under which the militia was embodied
was the most advantageous. He considered the practice of
calling out the men of the unembodied regiments 21 days in
each year as open to many objections.
After a few words from the Earl of DONOUGIDIORE,
which were inaudible,
The Earl of RIPON observed that it might be well to
state that no fresh regiments of militia were intended to be
embodied either in England or Ireland ; but it was possible
that some of those regiments now embodied would be dis-
embodied and others substituted, but there would be no
addition to the embodied force.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter-past seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Lord Castlerosse took the oaths and his seat on his
re-election for Kerry, vacant by. his acceptance of the
office of Chamberlain of the Royal Household ; Mr. J. D.
Fitzgerald, Attorney-General for Ireland, on his re-election
for Ennis ; Lord A. Paget, Clerk Marshal, on his re-elec-
tion for Lichfield ; and Lord Fermoy, on his election for
Marylebone.

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 8, 1859.

able to go fully into the principle on which the service was
conducted. It was a question intimately connected with our
defences and the maritime supremacy of this country.
With regard to the Cunard_line, there had been a great

competition, which had tended to drive the Americanves-
sels from the sea. In the discussions relating to postal ser-

vices there had often been a difference of opinion between
the Admiralty and the Post-office. The Post-office natu-
rally wished all the contracts to be made with sole reference
to financial considerations, but the Admiralty was often
actuated by motives of a political or social character. The
Treasury had hitherto had to act as arbitrator between the
two, and it would be very important to lay down some
general rule for its guidance. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MARSH insisted on the desirability of having but
one route to Sydney, and of adopting that by Aden in pre-
ference to that by Panama. If there were only one line and
any packet happened to break down, the next ship might
pick up the mail and forward it without much delay. He
believed that by adopting the Aden route alone it would be
possible to substitute a fortnightly mail for the monthly one
without increasing the cost. (Hear.)
Mr. CRAWFORD said the real question that would
suggest itself to 13211. gentlemen, after reading the papers
relating to the Giffway contract, and also those relating to
the Mediterranean contract, was, whether some rule could
not be laid down to place the matter on a more satisfactory
footing. There was one patter of very great importance,
however, which had not yet been referred to—namely, the
way in which this country was likely to be concerned in the
great network of telegraphic communication which was
spreading itself over the globe. England had hitherto en-
joyed a great advantage in being the postal carrier of the
world, for even tho Americans had been obliged to give
up to us their lines of ocean postal communication. Still
it was probable that the telegraph would supersede to a
great extent the post as the means by which the commerce
of the world must in future be carried on ; and therefore it
was that the subject of telegraphic lines became one to
which the committee might most usefully direct its atten-

tion. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GEORGE trusted that the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer would not insist on the alteration which he had
made in the wording of his resolution The communication
between London and Dublin stood on a footing very diffe-
rent from the generality of contracts. It was not a contract
between a company and one department of the public ser-
vice, but it was a contract entered into by several depart-
ments in pufsuance of an act of Parliament previously
passed. On the faith of that arrangement no less than
£300,000 had been borrowed, and to a great extent expended
in the building of steamers of superior size and construction.
Lord DUNKELLIN said the resolution as it originally
stood was unexceptionable, and hoped that the observations
of the right hon. gentleman would not have the effect in
any way of biassing the committee. With respect to the
Galway contract, he had only to observe that as it had been
signed, the public faith was pledged to hold it inviolate.
Mr. WILSON said the Government had no intention
whatever to disturb the Dublin contract. They desired to
make the inquiry complete, not' o re-open the question of
the communications between this country and Ireland.
With regard to the large increase which had taken place in
Me estimates for the packet services, the hon. gentleman
(Sir S. Northcote) had partially explained the cause. It
must be remembered that the previous plan having broken
down, the Government had required the colonies to pay a
portion of the charge. The Australian colontes in this
way contributed £90,000 a-year ; the Cape, £20,000; and
the Indian Government £50,000. These sums would go
far to cover the increase. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY approved of the proposed inquiry, but
cautioned the house against entertaining any very sanguine
hopes of a speedy report. Some time ago he was a member
of a committee on the subject of only one mail, and that
investigation occupied a very considerable period. Hon.
members, therefore, might Judge how long the researches
of the proposed committee would last.
Mr. BOUVERIE said there was one matter connected
with this question on which he should like to come to a
clearer understanding—he meant the Galway contract.
(Hear.) It was out of that contract that the present inquiry
arose; and without wishing to prejudge the question, he
must say, after perusing the papers submitted to the house,
that a more reckless, more hasty, more inconsiderate waste
of public money had never been entered into. (Loud
cheers.) He doubted whether in the terms of the resolution
the committee would have power to inquire into the matter
there being, as he understood, not a formal contract but
only an agreement for a contract.
Mr. WILSON—There is a contract.
Mr. BOUVERIE—Then of course it would form a sub-
ject for inquiry before the committee. (Heat) There were
two grounds on which it was open to objection. In the first
place, it was a reckless and inconsiderate expenditure of the
public money ; and in the next place, the Government had
been guilty,' towards what seemed to be a very respectable
company in Liverpool, of conduct which nobody would be
guilty of in his private affairs. (Cheers.) The late Secretary
to the Treasury appeared to be very much pleased with the
manner in -which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had in-
troduced the subject ; and no wonder. No doubt it would be
very convenient to the late Government to have the whole
subject
consigned to a select committee, which would re-
port a year hence when the matter, so far as the public was
concerned, would be dead and buried. (Hear, hear.) What
were the facts ? A company applied to the Newfoundland
Government and offered to carry the mails from Ireland to
that country and thence to New York and Boston. The
home Government agreed to go shares in the subsidy with
the Government of Newfoundland ; and there was a Trea-
sury minute on the 7th of October, 1858, authorising the
advance on certain terms specified of the sum of £1,500, in
addition to the subsidy which it was supp9sed the Govern-
ment of Newfoundland was also willing to grant. In
theminute referred to, the Government left it to the Govern-
ment of Newfoundland to determine whether they would en-
ter into a contract with the company represented by Lord
Bury, or throw the service open to public competition, or
enter into an arrangement with Sir S. Cunard. Lord Bury
went out to Newfoundland, and arrived at St. John's on the
21st October, and on the next day he concluded a contract
with tho Government there, subject to the veto of the Go-
vernment at home. The contract was however approved by
the Home Government; and therefore for the present year
both Governments had agreed to the contract with the Galway
Company. On the 31st October the Liverpool Company, to
which reference had been made, wrote to London, stating
that they understood there was some question about the
North American packet service, and that being connected
with an independent company trading with America—no
doubt greatly to the convenience of the public and to its own
advantage--they wished to know whether they would have a
fair opportunity of tendering. On the 9th November Sir C.
Trevelyan wrote back as follows :—" I am desired by their
lordships to state that when a new postal service is about to
be established by the Government it is their practice to in-
vite tenders by public advertisement." (Hear, hear.) This,
be it remembered, was afterthe Government had parted with
the possibility of advertising tenders for the present year.
Company offered to contraet for seven years at the rate of
beginning of January this Atlantic
asAgen:stilblee course; they referred the offer to
r £72,000 a-year. The Government
13a(lido:Npatr0e,
the Post-office authorities; and on the 4th February those
authorities made their report, which was in the strongest
dphaaer avrev.ro)yy
possible terms against the contract. The report was a very
able document, and he should have scarcely conceived It
possible that the Government, after reading it, could at
once enter into the contract on the very terms which had
been condemned by the Postmaster-General. (Cheers.)
The hon. baronet (Sir S. Northcote) had reminded the
house that he was a member of a committee which had
reported strongly in favour of short contracts. It was
true, he added, that the Government which had preceded
his own had disregarded that report. Now that might be
a reason why he should complain of the Government to
which he had referred. But it could be no reason why the
hon. gentleman should himself fly in the face of his own
report. It appeared that on the 22d February last the
Treasury agreed to contract upon the terms offered by the
company. It was rather a singular part, of this history
that on the very day on which this agreement for a con-,
tract was assented to by the Treasury Lord Derby was
asked a question in the other house with reference to the
subject. The Treasury minute, " Write to the Atlantic
Royal Mail Steam Navigation Company that my lords will
be prepared to enter into a contract as proposed," bore date
22d Feb. On that very day Lord Stanley of 'Alderley in-
quired whether any contract had been entered into. Lord
Derby replied *hat "-her -Majesty's Government had not
entered into contract for making Galway the port of depar-
ture for the mails, but that a proposition had been sab-
mitted to the Treasury by one of the Atlantic steam com-
panies for a regular fortnightly service from Galway to
some port in North America. That proposition was under
negotiation upon the terms submitted by the company ; but
before any arrangement was concluded inquiry would be
made as to the extent of the benefits to be obtained from
such communication, the solvency of the company, and
security would be required for the carrying out of the con-
ditions of the contract in a satisfactory manner." It ap-
peared,4therefore, that at the very moment when the Trea-
sury had agreed to sanction this contract, Lord Derby was
stating to the House of Lords that the matter was still un-
der consideration, and that no definite contract had been
entered into. On the 23d February the Liverpool company,
which seemed, like most Liverpool merchants, to be pretty
much alive to its own interests, seeing this report in the
papers, wrote to their member, expressing alarm about the
Galway contract, referring to the statement that all tenders
would be open, and wishing to know how the matter really
stood. In April, two months afterwards, the Treasury—
after distinctly stating it was their practice, when a new
postal service was about t 3 be established to invite tenders
by public advertisement, thereby affording to all parties the
opportunity of competing for the public service—wrote to
the Liverpool company to this effect :—" My lords admit
the expediency, as a general role, of inviting tenders by
public competition when new postal services are about to be
established, under circumstances in which the principle of
competition is properly applicable ; but the case referred to
in your letter is quite exceptional." (Cheers and laughter.)
The treatment of this company by the Treasury was treat-
ment such as no gentleman would use towards any man of
business with whom he had transactions. (Hear, hear.) He
had had no communication with the company ; he did not
know one of them ; his opinion was formed solely from
reading the papers and comparing dates. What was the
first fact with which the house and this committee would
have to deal In the face of a lengthened and reasoning
report from the Postmaster-General, alleging reasons which
were perfectly conclusive why this contract should not be
entered into, the Treasury, without giving any reasons
whatever upon paper, had thought fit to enter into this con
tract for seven years, which would saddle the public with a
payment of about £72,000 a year. (Hear, hear.) They said,
" My lords cannot regard this as a mere postal contract ; it
comprises considerations of' a more extended character."
(Hear, hear.) No doubt it was not a mere postal contract—
(hear, hear)—it did comprise considerations of a more ex-
tended character. (Cheers.) Upon the papers as they ap-
peared the whole proceeding displayed a most reckless and
inconsiderate dealing with a great question. It was stated
in the course of the correspondence that it was very
desirable to encourage this great Irish line. He would
not enter at all into the question whether the Galway
route was a good one or not ; he merely referred to the
mode in which the question had been dealt with by the
late Government. If the scheme was a wise and pro-
per one, which it might be, there was a different mode of
opening it up—a mode which had been indicated by
the Secretary of the Treasury himself. It was said that
the new line would be of great service to the crowds of poor
emigrants from Ireland, who were now forced to come to
Liverpool in order to go to America. But the Treasury
had no business to take a consideration of that kind into
view when dealing with this matter; it was simply a postal
question and not an emigration question; and if they thought
that facilities ought to be given to the Irish people to emi-
grate by that route, they should have come to the house
and asked its assistance for the purpose. The first contract
which was made with the company was justified on this
ground ; but on its being referred to the Admiralty and the
Postmaster-General they discovered that it exempted all the
vessels of the company from the operation of the Passenger
Acts ; and it had to be cobbled up, with the assistance of the
emigration commissioners. It would be the first duty of
the committee to inquire seriously into this matter.
Mr. HOLSFALL said he had been the first to bring this
subject under the notice of the house, and he had been
taunted with being jealous, as member for Liverpool, of the
interests of Ireland. This motive he disclaimed, and he had
stated the very opinions which Mr. Bouverie had just ex-

pressed, and read the very letter from Sir C. Trevelyan
which hehad read. Buthaving done this, and stood up for
his constituents, he felt that the question was a general one,
and had left it in the hands of the house. He approved of
the committee, and hoped that its inquiries would embrace
all the contracts.

Mr. ELLICE did not wish to cast any reflection on any
party in connection with these contracts, but would draw
attention to the injury that had been done to the province of
Canada. That province had granted a large subsidy to as-
sist the people of Liverpool in completing a regular weekly
service. The vessels of the Cunard Company were ex-
tremely well appointed, the letters of the public were car-
ried for nothing, and the communication was complete. The
late Government, under these circumstances, might have
had a little regard for the tax-payer before entering into a
new contract. (Hear, hear.) He doubted whether the pro-
posed committee would be of any service ; the facts were well
known to the public. If there was one person more meri-
terious than another in connexion with this business, it was

Sir Samuel Cunard ; the way in which he had established
and carried on this service entitled him to the thanks of the

public ; and he was certainly deserving of something like
favour. Still the house ought to see that the terms of the con-
tract were not too high. There were nightly demands on the
Chancellor of the Exchequer for the repeal of the paper duty,
or some other.tax ; and the house ought not to continue the
practice of voting away large sums of money without inquiry.
With the means, which Sir Samuel Cunard possessed for
carrying out a packet service the payment of X 73,000 a year
for this new contract was money absolutely thrown away.
(Hear, hear.) He was jealous of the quarter from which
the proposal for this committee emanated, but hoped that
their inquiry would be directed to ascertain whether it was
true, as was generally believed by the public, that the Gal-
way contract was a gross and scandalous job. (Hear.)
Mr. VANCE defended the Galway contract, and said
that the Cunard service was not satisfactory to the people of
Newfoundland. One of the Cunard vessels was recently de-
tained nine hours at Liverpool for want of water. The Irish
traffic alone was so considerable as to require a separate ser •
vice. As to public competition, he would observe that the
Canard contract had not been the result of a competition.
The late Government had prolonged Sir Samuel Cunard's
contract, and had given him a dislinguished mark of the
royal favour, but that was no reason why the interests of Ire-
land should be overlooked. He hoped the house would not
consent to the committee having any retrospective operation

with regard to contracts already entered into.
Lord DUNCAN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer

whether the contract was concluded, and whether the house
was bound down to its fulfilment for seven years to come.
Long before this committee reported it would be necessary
for the house to deal with the question. In reading the
terms of the contract, he could not but feel that the late
Treasury had treated the Postmaster-General with contempt.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to say, on the part of the late
Government, that it would have been much more satisfac-
tory to them had the subject of the Galway line been
brought specifically under the consideration of the house,
and whenever such a course was taken, he would be pre-
pared to enter fully into the question. (Cheers,) The only
condition he would make was one which was not unusual in
that house—namely, that fair notice should be given that
the subject would be brought forward. (Hear, hear.) From
what Fie had heard before he entered the house with regard
to the intention of the Government, he did not expect that
the subject of the Galway grant would have been discussed.
He was, therefore, unprepared with papers, and had no
opportunity of refreshing his recollection, and he believed he
might say that all his late colleagues in the Government
were in the same position. He certainly would have sup-
posed that such a statement as had been made by the right
hon. member for Kilmarnock would have been preceded by
a formal notice. With regard to the contract which ap-
peared to have excited so much alarm in the mind of the
noble lord who last spoke, he believed it would be in the
power of the house, when a vote of money was proposed, to
reject it entirely. Formerly, when contracts of this nature
were concluded, inasmuch as the expenditure was defrayed
from the Post-office revenue, they were not subject to the
pleasure of Parliament; but, speaking from recollection, he
believed that in the present instance it was for the first time
specially provided that the contract should depend upon
the approval of Parliament, and the House of Com-
mons would, therefore, have a fair and complete oppor-
tunity of expressing its opinion upon the policy recom•
mended by the late Government. He would be unable to
do justice to the conduct of the late Government if on this
occasion, without the opportunity of referring to a single
paper, he entered upon a defence of the course they had
pursued, or attempted to answer every allegation made by,
the right hon. member for Kilmarnock. He hoped that,
although the house might assent to the appointment of this
committee, the right hon. gentleman would find it consis-
tent with his convenience to bring the question of the Gal-
way grant specially before the house, and at as early a period
as possible. (Hear, hear.) He would only say that, both
with regard to the prolongation of Sir Samuel Cunard's
contract and the conclusion of the contract for the Galway
line, the late Government had been influenced by no other
consideration than what was thought to be the public ad-
vantage—(cheers)—and when the committee had instituted
an inquiry it would be found that " jobs" were neither so
flagrant nor so frequent as it was very easy to assume they
were in discussions in that ;house. He felt confident that
in both the cases which had been referred to—for which in
a great degree, and particularly for one of them, the late
Government was responsible—it would be found that in ad-
vising the expenditure of the public money they were influ-
enced by the only feeling which he believed could influence
the Ministers of the Crown in this country—a conviction
that the course they recommended was for the public ad-
vantage. (Hear hear.) He thought it right, before he sat
down, to notice one observation which had been made by
the right hon. member for Kilmarnock, because it im-
plied an inconsistency in the conduct of a noble friend of
his in another place which could not for a moment be main-
tained. The right hon. gentleman said that, on the 15th of
February—the date of a minute which intimated that the
Treasury were prepared to enter into a contract—Lord
Derby had stated in the House of Lords, in answer to a
question, that the Treasury had not entered into a contract,
and the right hon. gentleman dilated upon the inconsistency
between this statement and the fact. Now, there was really
no inconsistency whatever. When this inquiry was made
Lord Derby stated what was precisely the fact—namely,
that the Government had not entered into any contract with
the Galway Company, although a proposition on the sub-
ject was under their consideration. Although he (Mr.
Disraeli) believed that on.the same day a Treasury minute
was agreed to, announcing that the Government were pre-
pared to enter into a contract, that minute intimated at the
same time that its adoption was subject to certain condi-
tions being agreed to and fulfilled by the company, and
weeks elapsed before those conditions were ascertained and
settled. There was, therefore, no inconsistency between
the language of the minute and the statement of his noble
friend. Ho thought it was due to Lord Derby that be should
make this explanation, and he regretted that the course
taken by the right hon. member for Kilmarnock limited to
this point for the present his vindication of the Govern-
ment. He could only repeat for himself and his late col-
leagues that they would be perfectly prepared to vindicate
the course they had pursued if the right hon. gentleman
would bring the subject of the Galway contracts specifically
under the consideration of the house, and he entertained
the utmost confidence that their conduct would receive the
approval of Parliament.
Mr. RICH contended that Mr. Bouverie had most pro-
perly introduced the subject of the Galway contract, now
that the house was appointing a committee on contracts. He
wished to call attention to the Dover contract, entered into
in 1854. In 1855, the contractor asked for more favourable
terms. These were not granted, but he got an extension of
the contract. In 1857 he applied for further indulgence
without success. The matter rested till January last, 20
months, when the application was renewed to the late Go-
vernment, who, after a reference to the Post-office, agreed
that the contractor should receive additional compensation
for extra services arising out of the increased communication
with India. He afterwards sent in a fresh demand. The
report of the Post-office was that the contract was entirely
objectionable in principle and practice. The report of the
Post-office was made on the 10th of March. Then they
heard nothing more of it till the middle of April. About that
time the aspect of.affairs in that house changed. A fresh
demand had been opened on the part of the contractor, and
hif demands, which had been strongly reported against by
the Post-office, were acceded to by the Treasury. The terms
were that he was to have an additional subvention of £2,500
a year granted to him, and the period of his contract was
extended from 1863, when it would expire, to 1870. The
grounds for accepting those terms were that the contractor
had, some time previously, bought some old vessels from the
government, that he lost two vessels and had three collisions
in the course of two years, and that the conveyance of the
mails under the old system cost £5,000 a year more than
under the new contract. All these were bad reasons for en -
teringinto the contract. It was not the question how much the
mails had been carried for under an old and exploded system,
but how much they would now be carried for. He begged
the house to remark the date of the contract. It had been
refused in 1857 by the preceding Government; at the begin-
ning of the present year there was what was tantamount to
a refusal by the late Government. Then came the period of
the dissolution. Between the 10th of March, when the Post-
office reported strongly against it, and the 15th of April,
there was a want of documentary evidence valde deviendus.
Re considered that this contract required a special inquiry,
and that the conduct of the late Government should not be
cushioned and smothered by a general inquiry which might
last two or three years. He hoped it would be understood
that these two contracts—the Dover and the Galway con-
. tract—were to be entered into at theearliest moment by the
committee, and if the result was to clear the late Govern-
ment of any imputation he should rejoice.
Mr. LYGON said the hon. gentleman drew an inference
unfavourable to the late Government from the fact that the
matter had been entirely dropped between March and April.
He gave his unqualified denial to the representation made,
because a great many things had been brought under his
notice between those dates for consideration, although they
did not asume a form which requirid them to be entered on
paper. He believed the Dover contractor had been no
pecuniary gainer by the contract beyond the renewal of the
contract, for the addition of £2,500 was little more than
payment for special services performed for the Government.
The contractor also undertook to make certain improve-
ments in the conduct of the patket service which would be
most advantageous to the public. He agreed in the doctrine
that the losses of the contractor shculd not form a ground
for showing him any favour, but from the way in which the
contractor in this instance exerted himself to meet the in-
creased pressure of the Indian correspondence he showed
that he deserved tm extension of his contract.
Sir M. PETO said a very strong feeling existed in the
public mind on the subject of these contracts. As an instance
of the mode in which these contracts were conducted ho
would mention that a deputation from Canada called on the
right hon. gentleman the member for Devonport, with re-
gard to the Cunard contract, and they were informed that it
was not the intention of the then Government to renew that
contract. The province of Canada, acting under that im-
pression, subsidised a line at a cost of £lOO,OOO between
Liverpool and the St. Lawrence. But the Cunard contract
had been subsequently extended, on which account the
people of Canada felt that a great practical injustice had
been done to them. When the Legislature of Canada met
ht had no doubt they would receive some strong protests
on this subject.
Mr. M'MAHON regretted to see so much commercial
jealousy of Ireland, exhibited as was developed by the whole
of this transaction respecting the Galway line. It was
matter of notoriety, as was evident from the report of the
committee of 1855 on steam packet contracts, that the coun-
try lost no less than £500,000 a year by subsidies granted
to various steam packet companies in this country over and
above the net earnings of the Post-office. (Hear, hear.)
The Cunard contract alone entailed a net loss of not less
than X,61,642 ; the Halifax and New York line, £173,000 ;
the West Inhia and Brazil line, from Southampton,
£180,000; the Callao and Valparaiso line, £19,525. In the
report of the Post-office, just published, these sums were
very properly called bounties and subsidies, and were not
estima' ed as deductions from the revenue of the Post-office
receipts. The reason was, that the expenditure was en-
tered into for other than maintaining postal communication
—namely, " for fostering maritime enterprise, and encou-
raging the production of a superior class of vessels." If that