The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 1861.

Church should be independent. It is a matter of the utmost
consequence to this country that he, to whose spiritual
authority and power large numbers of our fellow-country-
men, as well as many millions of our fellow Christians in
other parts of the world, give a ready and willing obedience
—that he who claims at their hands that obedience and
those obligations of duty should be himself in a position in-
dependent to act, free from the dictation and control of any
foreign !Power-,which, by maintaining that authority in
his hands, which it is very difficult to separate within
the limits of spiritual and temporal authority, may be
exercising an amount of authority extremely dangerous to
the wellbeing and safety of this country. (Cheers.)
Let no man suppose that it is a matter of indiffer-
ence to us whethar the Pope is an independent prince
or not. The extent of his temporal power is a matter
wholly and entirely distinct from his independence. Indeed,
my noble friend adverted to the possible idea that, while
wishing to put an end to the present state of things, some
Protestant object might be served by some weakening of the
spiritual power of the Pope. I confess that, if I were de-
sirous of destroying or injuring that spiritual power, I should
think I could do nothing so effectual for the object as to
promote a continuance of the present state of things. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot conceive a position more embarrassing to
Europe, more painful to conscientious Roman Catholics, or
more painful to the Pope himself, than the self-contradic-
tory position in which he is at this moment placed. My
noble friend who has just sat down, and also the noble lord
the Under-Secretary of State, have pointed out that for
many years the Pope has not possessed any temporal power,
in the way in which we speak of it with regard to other Sove-
reigns. He is maintained in his temporal authority in oppo-
sition- to the will of the vast majority of the people over
whom his rule extends, by the intervention and presence of
foreign troops. If this were the case of a temporal Sove-
reign we should be justly entitled to call on France at once
to cease that intervention, which in the case of a temporal
Sovereign would be absolutely indispensable, to withdraw
her troops and to leave Italy for the Italians and Rome for
the Romans. (Hear, hear.) But in the case of the Pope,
where the interests of religion are supposed to be at stake, he
must at all events be protected and maintained in such
sovereignty and in such state as he can enjoy under the
support and dominion of foreign Powers. Until some solu •
tion can be found for the difficult question raised by my
noble friend it is impossible, whatever may be the objec-
tions felt by Europe, whatever may be the objections felt by
France herself, whatever may be the sense of embarrass-
ment—and I have no doubt the Emperor himself labours
under a great sense of embarrassment—it is impossible, I
say, to urge France to withdraw that protection which she
at present affords, and it would be useless and worse than
useless—it would be idle and criminal—to urge the Emperor
to adopt measures which at the present we know he cannot
adopt. (Hear, hear.) Only look at what took place in the
Legislative Council the other day. Five deputies only, I
believe, supported the withdrawal of the French troops.
The whole body of public opinion in France is that the Pope
must be maintained in independence, and so long as he can
be maintained by no other Power it is the duty of the eldest
son of the Church, as the Emperor is termed, to maintain
the Pope in his authority. (Hear, hear.) 1 will not express
so strong an opinion as my noble friend behind me, or even
as my noble friend opposite, with regard to the absolute
necessity of Rome being the capital of the Italian Kingdom.
I confess I concur in the opinion, which is stated in papers
laid before your lordships as the original view of the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, desiring the indepen-
dence of Italy, he thought it would be infinitely better
effected by the formation of two separate kingdoms. I
maintain that opinion now, and I believe that although it
sounds very well to speak of the unity of Italy, the diffi-
culty of accomplishing that object would have been infi-
nitely less, and the prospect of ultimate success infinitely
greater, if the mode adopted had been the formation of a
Northern and Southern: kingdom—in which case the
Roman question would have been easy of solution, because
Rome would have laid between the two, and not been, as at
present,. the centre of the United Kingdom. As there is
one Italian kingdom, I heartily hope and earnestly desire
that the union may not be a formal but a real and practical
union. At the same time, notwithstanding the moderation
displayed and the self-sacrifices made, I cannot but see the
greatest difficulties in the consolidation of this union. I
cannot look to the state of Naples at the present moment
with satisfacticn. Ido not believe that if the people of
Naples and:Sicily had been left to themselves they would
have desired to be associated and subjugated. (Hear.) I
do not say they would have desired a continuance of their
then existing monarchy—but, if the former dynasty had
been well advised and had acted in time, that Government
might have been established on a satisfactory and sound
basis, and I believe the :monarch might have continued in
amity and friendship with the constitutional monarch of
the North of Italy, not interfering with the exceptional
jurisdiction of the Pope in whatever remained of the Roman
territory. That, in my opinion, would have been a more
practical solution of the question, and would have avoided
many of the difficulties which must be encountered in the
present state of affairs. (Hear.) Nothing can,be more
natural, if there is to be an united Italy, than that the
Italians should desire to have Rome for their oapital.
There are a thousand considerations which lead to that.
But the very fact of that necessity enhances to an infinite
degree the difficulty of coming to any solution with
regard to the independence of the Pope, because, diminish
his territory as you will, if he is to be independent at all, he
must exercise absolute authority, and he must have uncon-
trolled dominion over that territory; he must have a provi-
sion made for him sufficient to maintain not only the dignity
and splendour, but the practical utility of his office. (Hear,
hear.) He may have the guarantee of the Catholic Powers
of Europe—and that is an arrangement which I should pre-
fer—but he must obvipusly within his own limits be uncon-
trolled master of his own movements, he must be able to act
without being subject even to the suspicion of being con-
trolled and overborne by any foreign Power. (Hear.) My
noble friend has brought the question of the temporal
power of the Pope to a reductio ad absurdum. He stated,
and stated truly, that without the aid of a foreign Power no
Government can be maintained which is not in accordance
with public feeling and public opinion, and that no laws can
be maintained which are not in accordance with the spirit
of the times and the extension of popular rights, and then
he goes on to argue that such extension of popular rights is
inconsistent with temporal power ti the Pope. The reductio
is very obvious—that the maintenance of the temporal power
of the Pope as a sovereign—I mean reigning over anything
which may be dignified by the title of a territory—in the
present state of Europe, is morally impossible. But suppose
it to be morally possible, I can truly say that, if I were a
conscientious Catholic as I am a conscientious Protestant,
I should feel the deepest pain and the deepest mortification
at the position in which the head of that Church at the
present moment finds himself. If the maintenance of his
temporal power is essential to his spiritual authority, and
if he finds that the exercise of that temporal authority at
every point comes into opposition and collision with the
feelings and wishes and desires of his subject, I can con-
ceive no heavier blow which could be aimed at the spiritual
authority than that it should ba supported by acts utterly
at variance with the feelings of the people. (Hear,
hear.) If I were a devoted servant of the See of Rome,
I would say, "Bring the See of Rome • into harmony
with the people of Italy and with the Catholic feelings
of the world ; away with the temporal sovereignty and the
temporal possessions, the cares of -which and the respon-
sibilities of which necessarily, according to my noble
friend, bring the Papacy into daily conflict with the feel-
ings and wishes of the people; but let him maintain that in-
dependence which it is absolutely necessary the head of the
Church should possess, and let that be secured, in such a
manner as may seem best, separate from the temporal power
—by which I mean reigning as a sovereign over a certain
extent of territory." (Hear, hear.) The two might be easily
reconciled, and in that manner alone can I conceive it pos-
sible to devise an arrangement of this difficult question.
How it is to be arrived at Ido not pretend to say. Tt is a
difficulty with which, however much we may desire to see
it settled, we in this country have no means of dealing.
For the solution of it we must look to the feelings of the
Catholic powers of Europe generally, and to the growing
conviction which must force itself upon the mind of the
Sovereign Pontiff—if, indeed, he has a right sense of the
superior importance of the spiritual authority over the main-
tenance of the temporal power. We can trust to nothing
except the conviction on the part of the Catholic Powers and
the Papal See that such a solution is the only one by which
the spiritual authority can be reconciled with its tempera
independence. But I concur that the less this Protestant

country interferes, the more it leaves it to the Catholic
Powers of Europe, and the more it abstains from interfer-

once and intervention, while at the same time it does not
close its eyes to the importance of maintaining the real in-
dependence of the Sovereign Pontiff, the better is the pros-
pect of arriving at the solution which we all desire, however
difficult it may be of attainment. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned.