The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-08 00:00:00

to propose to the powers of Europe to surrender the lonian
Islands for the purpose of uniting them to free Greece. Did
the hon. member consider the bearing which that union had
on the condition of the European provinces of Turkey.
(Hear.) If we were to resign our protectorate, and to giv e full
effect to the principle of nationality as laid down by the hon.
member, were we then to say to the people of Thessaly, Al-
bania, and Candia, you shall remain, not under a Christian
protectorate, but under a Mahommedan sovereignty, and
your desire for nationality shall remain unfulfilled ? (Hear.)
There was therefore a political bearing of this question
which the hon. gentleman in his new-born zeal for nation-
alities had entirely overlooked. But his zeal for nationali-
ties had made such rapid growth—he was so promising a
pupil in that school=-that when next the Italian question
came before, thehouse he entertained the most sanguine ex-
pectation of his aid. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Looking
to the state and position of these islands—seeing that Corfu
was only separated by a narrow channel, which in some
Points was not wider than two miles, from the Turkish ter-
ritory, they must be convinced of the great risk of acceding
to the policy of the hon. gentleman ; and indeed it would
be hardly compatible with good faith to Turkey to allow
Corfu, under present circumstances, to become a part of
Greece. People might differ as to the practicability or de-
sirability of maintaining the Turkish empire, but what•
ever was done with regard to that great question should
be done on principle, with forethought and a conscious-
ness of what we were about, not by piecemeal measures,
which would bring into operation a source of dis-
turbance which would tend to perplex the Eastern ques-
tion, and the whole of Europe as connected with that
gigantic question. (Hear.) If, therefore, in his humble
conception of what was right he declined to accede to the
annexation of the islands to free Greece, it was not that he
denied the application of the principle of nationalities, but
because in respect to this protectorate they stood as the
guardians of a public and general policy, and must do
what was best for the general interests. (Hear, hear.) He
wished to say a few words as to the actual condition and
institutions of the lonian Islands, because the belief was
that they enjoyed a free Government because they were
under the protectorate of England ; and any Englishman
who understood the nature of the institutions of those
islands would even dignify them with the name of a free
Government in the same sense as we understood it. It
was the very opposite of a free Government. It was a
strange and iucongt uous mixture of materials which re-
quired reconstruction. (Hear, hear.) In Dominica there
was perfect liberty of the press, and that was a
great item of freedom when it came in its own place and
time ; but the possession of entire liberty of the press when
it did not stand side by side with Parliamentary institu-
tions was a very doubtful benefit. (Hear, hear.) Now, with
regard to the franchise, the population of the islands was
nearly2so,ooo, and the number of enfranchised persons was
not more than between 6,000 and 8,000, and therefore it
could not be said, if they went wrong, they had been ruined
or corrupted by universal suffrage. (Hear) Well, there was,
on the other hand, a power which had existed in that country
for several years, and though that power might not have been
exercised of late it was a thoroughly despotic power, and was
vested in the Lord High Commissioner, who had authority
to lay hands on any man, separate him from his family, and
banish him to any portion of the lonian territory. It might
not, it was true, be considered a very great hardship to
transport a man from one side of the country to the other;
but the contrary was the fact. These seven islands had
other islands appended to them, in which perhaps only a few
• fishermen would be found to reside. Now, when an editor
of a newspaper—(" hear, hear," from Mr. Maguire, and a
laugh)—was employed in preparing an effective leading
article—(a laugh)—he might under the lonian law be seized
and sent to one of those solitary places, and kept there so
long as it pleased the parties who had him taken up. That
was one of the things which he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was commissioned entirely to abolish. Then, as to
the Assembly, it was not at liberty to take the initiative—
it had no legislative means of influencing the Government,
nor had it any power over the public purse. If the As
sembly were Suspended the Lord High Commissioner had
power to raise the revenue of the country and expend it as
he pleased. So that a free Government as it was understood
in this country did not exist—it contained the theoretic
elements of one, and that was all. (Hear, hear.) Now, as to
the question of the ballot, which was supported by a large
party in this country, a friend of his who had
always supported it told- him that if it were
carried 99 out of every 100 electors would insist that the
way in which they voted should be made known. (A
laugh.) In the lonian Islands all men were for the bal-
lot, but nothing could be more injurious than the operation
of that system among them, because their greatest misfor-
tune and curse was their want of political and moral cou-
rage. (Hear, hear.) It was not difficult to ascertain the
existence of that evil. The Assembly, consisting of 42 gen-
tlemen, met in a hall the galleries of which contained some-
thing like 1,000 persons, who more or less interfered with
freedom of discussion, and influenced their decisions.
(Hear.) But that was not the worst of the evils in their
system of government. One fatal characteristic of their ir sti-
tutions was that every-member orthe -Amerrably-Trairalede.a,
salaried officer ; and of all the changes proposed to he intro-
duced into our constitution he prayed that such a system
as that would be the last. (Hear, hear.) In general, where
payment was proposed or given to Members of Parliament,
as in America, it was to reimburse them for the expenses
incurred ; but in the lonian Islands it did not stop there,
but ran through the whole municipalities of the islands,
and the consequence was they had got a system the most
corrupt that it was possible to conceive—namely, the fre-
quent elections of paid officers—(hear, hear)—a system
enough to eat out the hearts of all men. (Hear, hear.)
In his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion,
payment of any kind to members of parliament
was bad ; but there it was carried too far, and
produced the most lamentable consequences. (Hear,
hear.) It exceeded two or three times over the amount
paid to the members of the Greek Assembly who met at
Athens. It was after all but a just retribution on the peo-
ple of this country, because, when the protectorate was
first assumed the system of the government was founded

on a policy of silence ; the members of the Assembly were
nominated and well paid, and when the time came to elect
them, the earn; system had to be continued ; hence the
hopeless corruption of the civil government under which
the people suffixed. In no case was that exempli-
fied more than in the fact that though the whole cost of the
military defences of those islands was borne by England,
yet the inhabitant; were heavily taxed to provide for
officials who had nothing whatever to do, and superinten-
dents who did even less. (A. laugh.) He believed that in
the first instance England shrank from giving the lonian
Islands a constitution, and that her policy was intended to
go no further than to give them a general security for life
and property. It appeared to him, however, as a commis.
sioner, that though they were bound by European con-
siderations to prevent any expectations on their part that
this country would surrey der its protectorate, they were
bound to give them a free constitution. He honestly
confessed that he desired the well-being of these islands—
(hear, hear)—and in his opinion free institutions would
work well, because they would bring out all the best
elements of the people, which were now absolutely
smothered beneath the profligacy and corruption that
existed. No present system had created such an extraordi-
nary mass of private interests—so many big jobs and little
jobs, that they had more to contend with in endeavouring
to effect improvements than if they left it as it was. The
very men who now adhered most closely to the system of
corruption, and proclaimed themselves the fast friends of
England, would be the first to turn demagogues and cry out
for annexation with Greece the moment they endeavoured
to introduce political improvements and interfered with the
pastures on which they fattened. (Hear.) The lonian
Government were offered to enjoy full power over the public
purse, and wonld ultimately command an influence over the
Executive Government, and they would in every respect
have been secured in person and property. Those were the
terms offered, but unhappily refused. Having trespassed so
long on the patience of the house, he did not intend to say
anything personal to himself, although be might say that,
having been entrusted with a mission, it might have been a
matter of regret to him that his mission had failed. He
believed that their refusal of the advantages offered them
placed England in a right position before the nations of
Europe, because it showed that whatever evils prevailed in
those islands, it was not the fault of England, but in spite
of her honest endeavours to cure them. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. CONINGHAM supported the motion.
Mr. LAYARD denied that the lonians were at present
worthy of what was termed "nationality," and ridiculed
the idea of their being a great people pining for a free con.
stitution, and deserving of it. He believed that if a strong
declaration were made by England that she had no idea of
transferring the lonians to Greece, the inhabitants would
cease agitation, and apply themselves to developing the re-
sources of their country.

Mr. WHITESIDE asked what was to be done with the
lonian Islands. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had re-
presented their present system of government as a tissue of
absurdity and corruption, and there had left it.

Mr. M. MILNES was gratified to find that a subject of
go much interest and importance had been brought under
the notice of the house. He could not understand why the
report of Mr. Gladstone should have been kept secret so
long, but he hoped that when it was published it would
have a salutary effect upon the future of the lonians.
Mr. MONSELL expressed his hope that the inhabitants
of tho lonian Llands would feel, after the discussion of that
evening, that the English Parliament really sympathised
with them, and was anxious to see them enter upon a course
of self-improvement.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE having described the nature of the
papers which the Governraent were prepared to furnish,
Mr. MAGUIRE said he would accept the proposal of the
GGvernment to give as many papers on di.e subject as they
could obtain. lle assured the house that nothing was fur-
ther from his intention than to say anything disrespectful.
All he intended to say of Sir H. Storks was that he was a
brave and gallant soldier, but that he had found himself in
a very critical position, and was really bewildered as to what
he was doing. He hoped and believed that the present dis-
cussion would do no injury in the lonian Islands, and he
for one felt very well satisfied with the turn the debate had
assumed.

Lerd PALMERSTON—I think the hon. gentleman has
shown a very fair and candid spirit in the course he
has adopted, and on the part of the Government I thank

him very much. lam convinced he will find that the
papers when they are produced will give him all the in-
formation he is justly entitled to ask. I also concur in
thinking that the course which this discussion has taken
must do good in the lonian Islands. It will, I trust, con-
vince the people of those islands that on the part of her
Majesty's Government, on the part of the British Parlia
went, and on the part of the people of this country, there
is no feeling in regard t, them except an earnest desire to
contribute to their happiness and prosperity. And I hope
that they will be impressed with the conviction that we
are so strongly anxious to promote their happiness and
prosperity that nothing would induce us to consent to
inflict upon them the serious injury and evil that would
arise from their annexation to the Kingdom of Greece.
(Laughter.) For it is very well t) talk of it as an object
of desire to the people of the lonian Islands ; but, if gen-
tlemen knew the present condition of the kingdom, the
discontent which there prevails, and the indications which
have been recently manifested of events which certainly
are inconsistent with internal tranquillity, I am sure they
would think that in the interests of the lonian Islands her
Majesty's Government have judged rightly in declining to
comply with the wish expressed for their connec-
tion with the Kingdom of Greece. We are discharging
a duty fixed on us by a treaty, and imposed upon us by a
due sense of regard to the people of the lonian Islands, in
steadily refusing to co':.ply with that request. I trust the
people will concur with her Majesty's Government in
endeavouring to effect internal improvements in the con-
dition of the islands—improvements of which their condi-
tion is susceptible—and I assure the hon. member and the
house that if this discussion shall in any way contribute to
facilitate such arrange uents, we shall thank the hon. mem-
ber for having originated the discussion to-night. (Hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
Leave was given to Mr. Sergeant:Proorr to bring in a
bill to amend the constitution, practice, and procedure of
the court of the Island of JerSey, which was described, in
the short discussion that ensued, as the very worst in the
whole world.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT obtained leave to bring in a bill to
require all friendly and assurance societies to render to
every member thereof, or person depositing money therein,
a copy of their annual accounts.
TRAMWAYS (IRELAND] ACT AMENDMENT
BILL.
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Col. DUNNE moved that clause 2 be struck out.
Mr. BUTT defended the clause.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause 157
Against it

Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
Colonel DUNNE took objection to the construction of
1 clause 3.
Mr. BUTT moved that the chairman report progress.
Mr. HENNESSY, amid loud cries of " Question," ex-
pressed himself much surprised at the course taken by his
hon. and learned friend in proposing that the chairman re-
port progress. His hon. and learned friend had charge of
this bill, and by an arrangement with the Government he
very strangely handed it over to their management. No
Irish bill ever yet received fair consideration from her
Majesty's Government. (" Oh I oh I" "Hear, hear," and
cries of "Go on.") If his hon. and learned friend would
give something like a reason for reporting progress he should
be happy to support his motion, which at present ho could
not but consider opposed to Irish interests.
Lord N AAS said he thought the opposition to the bill
was most unfair, especially on a Tuesday night, which was
always supposed to be devoted t o the measures of individual
members. He hoped the hon. member would proceed with
his bill.
Mr. BUTT observed that hon. gentlemen opposite were
extremely mistaken in supposing he was not desirous of
going on with the bill. (Laughter, and cries of Go on.)
If he could be assured that the house would patiently dis-
cuss the measure on that occasion, he should be quite ready
to go on with it.
Mr. WHI rESIDE hoped the bill would be allowed to
proceed. It was a short one, having only five clauses in it,
and the house appeared to be in a most amiable mood to
entertain it.
After a few words in the same sense from Captain JERVIS
and Sir F. GOLDSMID,
Colonel DUNNE said that the hon. member for Youghal
was not treating the Irish members on that side of the
house fairly. He had got a clause oarried for which he
was anxious, and was now ready to give way when there
was no occasion for it. The business on the paper was' not
so pressing that the bill could not be proceeded with then,
and there would not be many such opportunities available
for the purpose.
Lord R. CECIL said there was more than met the eye
in this proceeding. (Cries of Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.)
It was evidently the view of the Government to leave
to private members the dinner hours in the house when
the house was usually empty, and when the house
filled, and business of interest was brought forward to
t• au rne inooonn. poooll.lo on 6bose. members ,ho Moro
be easily pressed, so that the Government might easily
occupy all the valuable hours of the sitting. It was there-
fore the duty of the house to restrain such a proceeding,
which concerned not merely such members, but every in-
Fto
dependent member. (Oh.) It was aof piece with the de-
vices which characterised the budget from end to end—
(cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear")—a device in which
it was proposed to wreak the vengeance and spite of the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on
the House of Lords—(Opposition cheers)—a device mei e
worthy of an attorney Phan a statesman. (Opposition
cheers, and cries of " Question.") If the right hon. gentle-
man chose to press the constitutional question of the bud-
get, he might do so, but he (Lord R. Cecil) was sure that

in the end it would neither increase the right hon. gentle-
man's reputation, nor aid the conduct of the measure he
had in hand. (Opposition cheers.)
Mr. CONINGHAM said that the speech they had just
heard was an unjustifiable and unwarrantable attack upon
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he retorted that the
Opposition were only endeavouring to make use of the bill
under discussion as a means of delaying the progress of the
budget. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said that there had been a great deal
t unnecessary beat imparted into the present discussion.
(Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Government
were t') blame for wishing to expedite the public business
by every means. He ted the Chancellor of the Exchequer
yesterday, in no spirit of unnecessary hostility, the course
which he thought it most convenient to follow. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer did not acquiesce in his sug-
gestion, and ho was quite privileged to adopt his
own view upon the matter. But at the same
time it was necessary to consider the circumstances
under which the present discussion arose. This was the
first, night upon which the new rules for the regulation of
public business had been brought into operation, and he
thought it was most desirable for the interest of the Govern-
ment and the maintenance of the good feeling and good
temper which ought to exist amongst all parties, that no
collision should be allowed to take place, and that the con-
duct of the Government should not be subject to suspicion.
He entirely acquitted the Government of any design to
take advantage unfairly of the power which the new regu-
lations gave them. Without wishing to pursue a Puritani-
cal or hypocritical course of criticism, he could not help
snaking a few remarks upon the conduct of this evening's
business. If the Government could have whispered in the
ear of the hon. n ember for Dungarvan that he should not
bring forward the lonian question, some time might have
been saved. (Hear, hear.) Then again, if they had not
happened to travel into Jersey and discussed the nature of
the laws existing there, they might have been able to
make better progress. The postponement of the question
of belligerent rights was placed on high public grounds,
but ho thought it most unfortunate that that question had
not been brought forward by the hon. member for Liver-
pool, and he entirely dissented from the reasons advanced
for its postponement. Ile thought that so moderate a
motion, couched as it was in such temperate language,
would at the t time have formed a wise text,
one whioh would be greatly to the advantage of
the people of this country if the discussion had been taken.
But he did not charge the Government with being ac-
' tasted by any other feeling than that which arose from a
deep sense of duty. (Hear.) He could pardon the Minister
for urging the postponement of the hon. member for Tiver-
ton's motion respecting the claims of the Baron De Bode,
which had been discussed for the last thirty years without
any person being able to understand it. (Laughter.) Then
on the subject of the Danish claims, with respect to which
it was evident the Government had avoided discussion,
their conduct, he thought, might be viewed without any
suspicion ; but when they came to the question before them,
a practical question, not like the lonian question, or the
Danish claims, or the Baron De Bode's case, but a practical
measure of reform, deeply interesting to the people of Ire-
land—(oh, oh, and laughter)—brought forward by a gen-
tleman who seemed to possess the confidence of her Ma-
josty's Government—(Opposition cheers)—a question in
which, by the majority that had voted on the first division,
the house had shown its interest ; and when they remem-
bered that this was the only night on which independent
members could bring forward questions of interest, he
thought it most unfortunate that the Government should
endeavour to seize the occasion for the advancement of any
measure of their own. He hoped the house would not sanc-
tion the motion for reporting progress, which the hon. gen-
tleman so deeply interested in this bill had moved—(great
laughter)—and he recommended that it should be with-
drawn, that they should proceed at once with the bill in
committee, and not allow so interesting and important a
measure to be delayed. (Laughter, and hoar.)
Sir G. GREY said the right hon. gentleman seemed to
be under the impression that this practice had beer r brought
on for the first time that night, but the usage had. been uni-
verse], that under the circumstances the report should be
brought up on Tuesday, the resolutions having been agreed
to on the previous evening. He wished it to be understood
that there was not'ling at all novel in the course which was
at present pursued, and which had unnecessarily brought
some severe strictures from the noble lord (Lord Cecil.)
Mr. B ENTINCIi said there was no precedent for the
proposed eourse of proceeding, and ho for one ()nay hoped
that members on his (the Opposition) side of the 'noun who
were determined to defend the rights el priYaty Menaberp,