The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-02 00:00:00

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said that when he brought in the Ec-
clesiastical Commission Bill, he stated his intention to con-
fine it exclusively to points notlikely to provoke any contro-
versy, and subsequently stated his readiness to abandon the
clauses which were objected to. No notice had been given of
any amendment to any of the clan es, but notice had been
given of a long series ofnew clauses which were tantamount
to a new bill ; he saw no prospect of dealing with the many
disputed points they raised this session, and it was therefore
not his intention to proceed with the bill. He proposed to
take the Police Bill first at the morning sitting on Tuesday
(this day), and the Roman Catholic Charities Bill second.
The order for the committal of the bill was then dis-
charged.
THE ROYAL HIBERNIAN ACADEMY.
Mr. MAGUIRE asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland
whether any and what steps had been taken to effect certain
reforms in the administration of the Royal Hibernian
Academy, and why there was no vote in the estimates this
year for the Academy.
Mr. CARDWELL said the report of Mr. MacLeod re-
commended that the schools of the Royal Hibernian Aca-
demy should be united to those of the Royal Dublin Society.
That had since been done. A correspondence then took
place between the Academy and the Government in refer-
ence to the continuance of the grant for other purposes.
The Academy asked for £5OO. The Government were will-
ing to give only £3OO. No conclusion had been arrived at,
and therefore no vote was proposed in the estimates.

EAST INDIA LOAN.

The house then went into committee.

Sir C. WOOD said—lt has often been my duty to address
the house on questions of great public importance, and more
than once on the subject of India, but I confess I never ad...
dressed it under feelings of such deep responsibility as those
under which I now rise to bring under the notice of the com-
mittee the state of India with regard to its finances. I do
not think the hon. member for Birmingham overstated the
importance of the question when he told us it was second,
or hardly second, to none of those subjects of domestic and
foreign policy which have occupied our attention during the
last few months. When we consider not only the importance
of India to England, but also the millions in that country
now under the sway of the British Sovereign, with regard
to whom we have undertaken the solemn duty of providing
them with good government, it is not possible to overrate
the task imposed on the Government and Parliament of this
country. It is not my intention on the present occasion to go
into the general question with regard to the welfare and the
state of India—the state of its finances, and its financial po-
sition are grave enough to occupy the attention of the Go.
vernment and of Parliament. Certainly, no responsibility
more grave was ever imposed upon the Government and
Parliament of this country, and it will need all the wis-
dom and all the energy which the Government can bring
to its consideration, and they will require all the aid and
support, which I doubt not they will receive from Parlia-
ment in dealing with a question of such vital importance.
It is not necessary for me to remind the committee of what
vital importance to all countries is the state of their finances.
If the financial state be good, there are no dangers she may
not confidently face ; if the financial state be bad, there are
few dangers she can hope effectually to overcome. The
financial state of India is to us a subject of the most anxious
consideration. In saying that, however, I am not to be un-
derstood as saying that her future prospects are in my
opinion gloomy and hopeless. I confine my statement to the
present time, when she has not yet recovered from the
effects of an overwhelming and unforeseen calamity. If she
surmounts the difficulties of the next two or three years, I
see no reason why she should not be restored to the state of
prosperity, materialand financial, she was in before the mu-
tiny. I see no reason to anticipate that she will not be re-
stored to the state in which it was my good fortune to leave
her when I quitted the office of President of the Board of
Coatrol. It is about four years and a half since I held the
office, substantially that of the Indian ministry, and a more
grave and more melancholy contrast there could not exist
than I found between the state in which I left India and
that to which I returned. At the time I held office before,
we had closed the career of war and conquest, universal
confidence prevailed in the army, it was felt by everyone,
and those best acquainted with its offices would have an-
swered for it with their lives ; we had a surplus revenue.
and our only object was to improve the natural resources of
the country, to devise an improved system of education, a
better administration of justice, and by the more rapid pro-
gress of railroads, by the extension of the electric telegraph
by the improvement of the navigation of rivers, and of the
means of irrigation, to bring out the resources which
India so abundantly possesses, and make them sources
of wealth, not only to herself, but also by the produc-
tion of raw materials to support the manufactures of this
country. Since that time, the whirlwind of mutiny has
swept over the land, marking its course with murder
and bloodshed. Confidence has been destroyed; the
trusted army bas proved unfaithful ; public works have been
checked ; financial difficulties have gone on increasing, and
new ones have arisen within the last few weeks. To this I
grieve I must add disaffection, and from the accounts to-day
I fear I must say mutiny, amongst ono portion of the Euro-
pean troops. These, sir, are difficulties grave indeed, and to
grapple with them will require the most careful considera
tion on the part of Government and of Parliament. I do
not, sir, intend on the present occasion to go beyond the
financial position of India. At the early period of the year
the noble lord the late Secretary for India went at consi
derable length into the general question connected with the
state of the country, but considering not only the importance
but the vastness of the subject, I think I shall best consult
the wishes of the house and enable them to form a clear
judgment on the question of finance, by abstaining from
going into questions that abound with material for discus-
sion, and on which I cannot now throw any additional
light. When the noble lord made his statement at an early,
period of the session, he necessarily spoke from imperfect
information ; since then we have received further informa-
tion with regard to the finances of India, but if he then ex-
aggerated the evil, the accounts since received present no
very promising aspect for the next year or two at least. I
have laid on the table every despatch I have received. No
information has been withheld from this house ; all the
papers were printed and delivered last Thursday, except
the general account up to April, 1858, which has not yet
been printed. I think the house is in possession of all
the information I am able to• place before it. I will, sir,
only make. one observation before I proceed to place the
figures before the committee. They must remember it
was perfectly impossible to arrive at great precision with
regard to the sums. Since April, 1858, all the sums I will
have to refer to are matters not of account, but of estimate
—estimates applicable to the present year. This will
account for any discrepancy there may be in the figures
as compared with former statements. The noble lord
made a certain estimate in April, but since that a material
alteration has been made by a despatch of the 14th of May.
I cannot venture to go into a very precise statement—l will
deal with the subject in round numbers. Another point is,
that in making the estimate I will always take the rupee at
2s. ; it was formerly taken sometimes at Is. 101 d., but the
noble lord directed it should henceforth be always taken at
2s. This may produce a slight discrepancy in some of my
figures, and I therefore warn the committee beforehand. I
will take, sir, for comparison, the lust financial account
which has been printed and distributed to the house, that
for the year ending the 30th of April, 1857. That wi:l afford
a good subject of comparison (as it was the last complete
year of peace, the mutiny having broken out in May, 1858),
and I will take it as my starting point with the committee.
At this time the debt of India was £59,462,000, the annual in-
terest £2,525,000. The military expenditure was X 12,561,000,
of which £12,196,000 was the ordinary, and £365,000 the ex-
traordinary expenditure of the year. That was the state of
affairs. From the year 1857-8 the expenditure considerably
exceeded the income. In that year the expenditure was
about £40,226,000, exclusive of a sum of interest on the rail-
road account, and the revenue was £31,706,000, leaving a
deficit of £8,520,000. In the next year, 185 S-9 (the house
will bear in mind that the Indian financial year expires on
the 30th April), the expenditure amounted to £48,978,000,
andithe revenue to £33,800,000, being a deficit of £14,000,000,
or thereabouts. The deficit for the two years to which I
have last referred, therefore, amounted in the whole to
£23,221,000. That deficit was provided for by a loan • we
have borrowed in India, in 1857-8, £5,157,000, and in
the year 1858-9, £5,398,000, making for the two years a
total of £10,555,000 borrowed in India We borrowed in
England in the year 1857-8, £4,758,000 ; and in the year
1858-9, £6,7o3,ooo—making for the two years a total bor •
rowed in England of £11,562,000. The house will see that
the total amount borrowed was £22,118,000. There is made
up by the diminution of balances up to this time a sum of
£1,103,000. The sums made up by the diminution of balances
and the amount raised on loan together make up the defi-
ciencies to which I have referred. This ds the state of
things up to the 30th April last. ,On the 30th April last
the Indian debt amounted to £31,564,000, the interest on
which was a sum of £3,564,000. I now come to the year
1809-60. Hon. members who may have in their hands the
despatches lately placed before the house, will see there a
"paper containing estimates for 1859-60. Subsequen , how-
ever, to this a further statement has been made out out,
and a rough estimate will alsobe found amongst the papers.
I propos in thatetoexc fromounlaucdcet,
becauseou our
that accountonsiderati a
is notgreat deal
which is one
of revenue and expenditure only, but it contains balances
on the one aide and the other. The expenditure in India I
estimate at £38,380,000; it appears in the account as
£38,900,000; but then that gives credit for stores on the
one side, in respect of which it takes credit on the
then
account of their being in this country. The charge then
for India, inclusive of these stores, but including the pay-
ment of the Tanjore debt, amounts to £38,380,000, and the
charges at home, including war stores, amount to
£5,851,000. I then take a sum which is a large sum, viz.,
the interest of the railway capital paid into the treasury,
the interest on which is a charge on the Indian revenue,
and I find its amount to be £1,114,000. Of this we expect
to receive as revenue of the railway already finished the
of £200,000 in the course of the year, which will leave the
sum of £900,000 as the real charge on the Government. T
will next add the charge to which the noble lord on a for-
mer occasion referred, viz.,. the charge in consideration of
compensation for losses during the Indian mutinies. With
regard to the greater portion of claims on this account offi-
cers have been appointed to investigate them. A report
had been received from these officers—in its nature only a
prima facie report—for as to many Maims no evidence was
sent. I must say that I cannot admit those claims for
compensation as a matter of right. In many cases of simi-
lar disturbance no compensation had been allowed, though
in others such an allowance has no doubt been made, but as
a matter of favour as distinguished from a matter of right.
The view which the Government takes of the question in
this particular case is that a distinction should be taken
between property which could not and that which
could have been removed out of harm's way. In the former
case we have fixed the compensation as at one-half the
value, and in the latter at one-third the estimated worth.
I have stated the amount at £BOO,OOO ; but, presuming that
there may be yet some claims to be brought in, I think it

right to fix a margin, and I therefore set this down as at
£1,000,000. Adding this to the sums which I have already
stated, the expenditure for the yearlBs9-60 will amount to
the sum of £46 131,500, With regard to the revenue, this
also is stated in the paper to which I have already referred,
which fixes it at £35,850,000, which includes the sum esti-
timated to be raised from the additional taxes which have
been imposed. I know that considerable objection hasbeen
taken to the increase of customs duties, and complaint has'
especially been made in Calcutta on that head. lam not
one of those who approve of any increase in the customs
duties, but it was essential to the Government of India to
have money, and it was necessary to obtain it at once.
Under such circumstances there was no course so expe-
dient to take as that of increasing the customs. Hence,
however much I- may dissent from the mode, I cannot,
under the circumstances, but agree that the pressure of
events justified the course taken. The other item of in-
creased revenue was from the duty on opium. This duty
had been increased in Bombay from 400 to 500 rupees per
chest. These are the only increased duties for which I
hive to account. The produce of the revenue in India for
the present year is, as I have said, £35,850,000, and de-
ducting that from the increased expenditure, it leaves a de-
ficiency of £10,250,000. lam afraid that beyond that there
may be a further sum. In consequence of what has taken
place in India we have not been able to push the railways
on so speedily as we could wish, or so fast as we should,
but for the circumstances to which I have alluded, have
been justified by the amount of capital. The expenditure
for the railways there for the following year is estimated
at £8,000,000, and the amount which has to be raised
for them will be £6,000,000. This will leave a balance

to be provided for of £2,000,000 ; and this, together
with the deficit I have already mentioned, with
a small margln for contingencies, will make a total deficit of
£12,500,000. Then comes the question, how am I to provide
this sum ? Now, by the accounts to which I have referred,
the house will see that the Indian government expect still
£300,000 from the old Five per Cent. Loan. Of that they
have, since the accounts were made out, received £276,000.
The Indian government also have to receive of the Five-
and. a-Half per Cent. Loan, £5,600,000; but from the best
information which' I can obtain I am afraid they will not
receive anything like that sum. I hope, however, that the
increased confidnce which now prevails will be of advan- ,
tage in India to ourfinances, and thatthe sum of X 2,000,000
which I have reckoned as receivable on this head will not .
turn out as too high a figure. The noble lord also borrowed
the sum of £7,000,000 in the early part of the year. Of this
£5,000,000 had been issued producing a sum of £4,800,000.
Adding this to the £2,000,000 I hope to receive from the
India loan the produce will be £6,800,000, and deducting
this from the deficit I have before stated, we have a sum of
£5,700,000. Itlis impossible foo me to say at what price I
shall be able to raise this amount by loan. The late admini
stration raised their loan at £BS. I trust that at the present
time the money market may be found liberally disposed to-
wards India. However that may be, I must take a censi-,
derable margin, and I propose to take a margin from
£5,700,000 to £7,000,000. I propose, therefore, to issue the
£2,000,000 left unissued by the noble lord, and to take a
power of issuing £s,ooo,ooo—this bill makes up the amount
to £7,000,000. I shall then; I hope, be able to meet the ex-
penditure of the year by, this loan. At the end of the year
the Indian debt will amount to £95,836,000, the interest of
which will be the sum of £3,900,000. I might here close ,
my statement, but 1 do not think it fair to the house to do
so. I think it right to state what the prospects of the ensu-
ing year will be. In the course of next year it will be ne-
cessary to provide for the increased expenditure caused by
the interest on the present loan. I think, therefore, it will
not be possible to put the expenditure at less than £46,000,000 '
Taking the revenue at the sum which the additional
taxation gives, I think it may be placed at £36,000,000,
which will leave a deficiency of £10,000,000 to be reduced
by the reduction of expenditure or by increase of taxation.
The house will, I am sure, agree with me, that it is indis-
pensably necessary that the deficiency should be met by de-
creasing the expenditure in every possible way. Any re-
duction must, however, depend necessarily on the state of
India. It is hence impossible to say what the reduction
may be. The reduction this year would have been large
had it not been for the disturbance amongst the local troops.
which rendered it necessary to keep some of the European
troops in India who would otherwise have returned home.
Any estimate which I present to the house must therefore
be taken as subject to any unforeseen contingency which
time may bring forth. Now the first item which may be
considered capable of reduction is the amount expended for
the civil service in India. I should deceive the house if I
held out to them that any great reductions can be made on
this head. I do not think it just or fair toreduce the sala-
ries of persons already in the service. (Hear.) Some re-
duction may perhaps be made on nnw appointments taking
place, but I am afraid that any reduction on this score will
be counterbalanced by the necessity to increase the number
of European civil servants in India. The next item of ex-
penditure is for public works in India: This is an item of
expenditure which I should be most sorry to reduce ; but I
think that some alteration may be made without stopping
those works which are of large public utility. But, after
all, the greatitem on which a swing may be made must be in
the military expenditure. (Cheers.) Now, the amount of
troops in India before the mutiny was, of Europeans, 45,332,
and of natives,249, 153- -making altogether upwards of 294,000
troops. The amount of troops at this moment is, of
Europeans, 110,320, and of natives 207,765—an increase
of 65,000 Europeans, and a decrease of 42,000 natives.
To these there is to be added a military police force of
89,829 men. Taking these, together with the men in.
depots at home, the total army of India is 431,600. Now, I
think that the day of danger having passed the expensive
system of recruiting lately necessary, may now be reduced,
and a reduction to some extent has been made already.
Hon. gentleman will, I think, agree with me in this, that
it is perfectly indispensable to maintain a larger European
force in India than we have hitherto kept up. I have no
doubt that the reduced European force in India operated as
an encouragement to the native troops in the late unhappy
mutiny. It has been said by Sir J. Lawrence, than whom
I know no higher authority, that the mutiny which has
taken place was entirely a military mutiny, though in some ,
places it was afterwards taken advantage of by disaffected
persons. I think, however, it is a very satisfactory thing to
hnd that, with the exceptions of the province of Oud e, and .
some surrounding territory, the inhabitants of India took no
part in the mutiny. Even there, I think, the part which the
populpopulation took was to be explained by the fact that the
ation
engaged in it were mainly drawn from them. Sir J.
Wilson says that he believes the late mutiny arose solely
om the conviction on the parts of the natives that attacks
were to be made on their religious ceremonies and belief.
From that we learn, I think, that we must not give to the -
natives of India any reason to believe that we are about to
attack those religious feelings or.prejudices which they hold
so dear. (Cheers.) We must consult not only the interests
but the feelings of the people. If we have a contented popu-
lation we shall require a lessforce. Wherever a native force
was present there was disturbance; where there was none
there was tranquillity. If we can reduce the army, then
we can reduce taxation, and in reducing taxation we shall
be taking the best security for the future content of the
kingdom. But to what extent reduction may be carried it
is not very easily to calculate, and the different estimates we
have received only show how various are the opinions on
this important subject. Much light is thrown upon it, how-
ever, in a paper which has been transmitted to us by Mr.
Bartle Frere, the Commissioner of Scinde. (The right
hon. baronet here read the paper at some length. The
purport of it was, that the question of the
amount of force to be retained in India was,
after all, a question of finance, as it would be impossible
to retain the country with any force, however large,
which was obliged to be maintained with borrowed money.
The first point to be gained was to get our expenditure within
our income, after which, what with our vast naval, media-
laical, and other resources, the preservation of tranquillity in
India would be a problem of easy solution.) This I contend
is the principle upon which we must proceed, to take care to
keep a contented population, and not to maintain an army
of such an amount as can only be provided for by a con-
tinued series of loans. (Hear, hear.) The necessity of re-
duction in expenditure has already been enforced upon the
Indian authorities in various despatches written by the noble
lord opposite. In one he cautions them against entering into
any expenditure which is not absolutely necessary, adding
that they must not only consider their necessity, but their -
expediency, at that particular time. It is obvious, says the
noble lord, that some reduction must be made in the mili-
tary expenditure which amounts to some twenty millions
annually. The suggestions of the noble lord were at once
attended to, and it was intended early in the year to send ten
regiments home. Recent events have, however, rendered
it imperative that a portion of that force should be retained
in the country, but still I believe about eight have been sent
and are now on their way home. The military expenditure
of India before the mutiny was twelve millions annually,
and itis now twenty-one millions, making nine millions in-
crease. It is therefore upon these nine millions that a re-
duction maybe expected and although it cannot be reduced
to the figure at which it stood before the mutiny, it is
obvious that even leaving a considerable margin there is
still a good deal of room for reduction. Three or four mil-
lions at least I think may be looked for, but as the opera-
tion cannot be carried out until the Queen's troops have been
sent home, it is impossible to fix a time at which the reduc-
tion may be expected. Even the transport of these troops
would cause expense to be set against reduction, but, then,
on the other hand, much will be saved by our ceasing tomove
them up and down within the country. All I can promise
is that the utmost care shall be taken to carry out the re-
ductions with the greatest possible expedition. (Hear.)
With regard to the revenue, the Indian Government has
made a proposal to raise the salt duty in Madras and Bom-
bay, it being already sufficiently high in Bengal. We have
not heard to what extent it is proposed to be raised, but the
probable gain to the revenue is estimated at £300,000, The
Government has also undertaken to consider other duties,
and instructions have been sent out from home to charge
additional duties on stamps, licenses to hawkers, and on
successions, but no estimate has as yet been received as to
the probable gain to be derived from these sources—l have
no doubt it will be several hundred thousand pounds. But
,when we have done all we possibly can there will still be a
considerable deficiency which must be provided for by Par.:
liament next year. It may be four or five, or perhaps, six,
millions, and a similar result may be expected for still an-
other year. I doubt whether in two years it will be pos-
sible to bring expenditure within income, and until that is
debt
in ttotfi
direction,t o f
done the revenue must be assisted by borrowed money.
yews wsi eell, nlthboapte m , tneyndtateke dipmlae ineisiht
The Tanjore debt will [next year be finally extinguished,
an dthe
rabiluwt ha
is not for me to say. On the
whole, I am afraid we cannot
expect to close the account of the mutiny without allowing
the debt of India to have been increased to one hundred
millions. (Hear, hear.) No doubt a considerable saving
might be effected if this country would consent to assist the
finances of India. (Hear, hear.) I am not going to make
any proposal to that effect, but circumstances may arise when
this may be a very serious subject for this house to consider.
The noble lord hinted at the probability of such a request
early in the year, and when I look, and the house looks, at the
circumstances I have stated to-night, it is not possible that
we should shut our eyes to the fact that if we do not mean to
lose our Indian empire we should be prepared ultimately to
assist the finances of that country. In the meantime means
must be adopted to put Indian finance under a better system.
In this country my right hon. friend at once finds the means
and superintends the expenditure, whilst in India revenue
and expenditure are kept wholly separate. The party 'who
expends, if the revenue proves deficient, draws upon Eng-
land, and the authorities who collect the revenue have
no power to interfere. There could not possibly be a more
fruitful source of irregularity, and therefore I think it would
be advantageous if some person well versed in the financial
system of this country, and our modes of raising money,and
of spending it, were sent out to India. It is therefore the
intention of the Government to select some person and send
him to India to take charge of its revenue and finance, and
I trust the result will be to produce a better system of ad-
ministration than thatavhich is at present pursued. If this
be done, and if we can meet the pressure of the next two
or three years, I have little fear of the revenue, because it
is a remarkable fact that the revenues of India have risen
in spite of recent events. In 1856, a year of peace, the re-
venue of India produced L 31,700,000, and in the subse-
quent year, when the mutiny broke out, it produced exactly
the same sum. In 1858-59 it was £33,800,000, being two
millions more than in the last year of peace ; and for the
present year the estimated revenue is £35,850,000. There
is an increase in four years of no loss than four millions.
This, I think, ought to give one great confidence reeputin

the future of India. (Hear, hear.) Previous to 1&57, each
year had been one of annexation, and although each annexed
state brought an increase of revenue, the charge always ex-
ceeded the increase. Since 1857 there was no annexation,
and this year there is an increase in the revenue of about
four millions. (Hear, hear.) Some of my friends near me
will be glad to hear how the export of cotton from India has
increased. Up to 1853 the annu.al average was 116,000,0001b5.,
but for the last five years it was 175,000,0001b5., being an
increase of 50 per cent., the amount sent last year exceed-
the exports of the whole of the four previous years.
ear, hear.) If that be the case, Ido not think we need.
Espair
' of India, over many parts of which the late cala-
mity passed lightly, while a large portion was left entirely
untouched. The difficulties of the country are only tem-
porary, difficulties, caused by events which no one could
control, and when they have passed away I do not see why
India should not resume the course of prosperity which
was only interrupted by the late calamity. The motion
which I have, sir, to put in your hands, is to ask for power
to enable me to raise in this country a sum for the service of
the Government of India of not less than five millions, in ad-
dition to the portion of the late loan which still remains un-
issued. That will enable us to meet all demands for the
present year ; and with respect to the future, we must wait
until the time comes. I have already stated my fear that
one or two years have vet to be passed before we get re-
venue to exceed expenditure ; but after that I expect that
the finances of India will be placed in a more satisfactory
position. I don't want all this money at once - we shall not
draw it all until April next ; but I feel that I should be
acting unwisely did I not take power sufficient to carry me
over the whole year. The right hon. baronet concluded by
handing his resolution to the chairman.
Mr. CRAWFORD having recapitulated the figures of ,1
Sir C. Wood, proceeded to say that he agreed with the right
hon. baronet as to the propriety of reducing military expen-
diture, but what he bad risen for was to call the attention
of the house to a very important omission in the right hon.
baronet's speech. The right hon. baronet had forgotten to
tell the house that there were at the present moment seven
millions of India bonds out, payable at one year's notice, and
not less than 15 millions of debentares payable in. 1863 and
1864. So that in the whole there were above 20 millions of
debt which Government might be called on to provide for
within the next five years. The right hon. baronet had not
told the house in what way he intended to raise this five
millions. Should it be by debentures, he (Mr. Crawford)
could say from his own experience and from the testimony
of many whom he had consulted, that the pl 6 would fail.
Debentures were overdone, the last not having been taken
up by the great companies and other ordinary purchasers
of such stock, but by the Stock Exchange. The Stock
Xxchange had been bitten on that occasion, and therefore
were not at all likely to come forward again. The increase
in the customs duties had been the subject of much com-
ment in India. The increase might be perfectly legiti-
mate, but the manner in which it had been levied, especially
in Bombay, had caused great discontent. In that port
it was customary for merchants to sell goods "to arrive,"
binding themselves to deliver them at a certain price, and
in consequence of the extreme rapidity with which the in-
creased duty was levied, he knew one gentleman who lost
£6,000 in order to keep his contract. Then there was the
export duty, which was only economically sound in certain
cases. It might do to levy many export duties, when you
had a monopoly of any article, as Peru with guano, Sicily
with sulphur, and India might be said to have almost a
monopoly of indigo, but in India export duties had recently
been levied on many articles which had to enter into com-
petition with the produce of other countries. The export
of hemp and rape cake had only sprung into existence since
the Russian war, and it would hardly be credited that in so
short a time it had reached such a large amount. He
doubted very much the expediency of taxing these articles.
An export duty would eventually operate as a tax upon land
by adding to the charges of sending the produce of the land
to the foreign market, and as the land in India was the
chief source of revenue, it followed that an export drity was
one of the worst expedients that could be resorted to for the
purpose of adding permanently to the resources of the state.
The right hon. gentleman had referred to the railways, and
appeared to be looking forward to the time when the railways
would no longer be a burden to the state. It might be sat-
isfactory to the house to know that in the case of one of the
most important of the India railways' with which he (Mr.
Crawford) was connected, and which was now in course of
construction, they were taking upon the 143 miles already
opened from Calcutta to the coal districts, and to the north-
west, £34 Der mile per week ; and as the traffic was carried
at about 46 per cent. working expenses, it followed that the
net earnings were from £lB to £l9 a mile per week. The
cost of this line was not more than £12,000 a mile, so that the
net annual return was considerably more than the guaranteed
interest, and, in point of fact, the railway had repaid to the
Government already about £2,50,000 against the advances
made on account of the guaranteed interest. In the case of
the Great Indian Peninsula line, on the other side of India,
they were taking £lB a mile, the cost of carrying on the
traffic being about the same. It would be seen by going into
the figures, that that also was earning sufficient to repay
the guarantee. The line also from Allahabad to Cawnpore,
which was 126 miles long, was opened last March, and upon
that the earnings were in the gross about £lB or £l9 a mile.
Therefore, it might be taken almost as a certainty that as
those railways were opened up, the amount of revenue re-
ceived from them would greatly exceed the guaranteed in-
terest, and that the railways would not form any permanent
charge upon the Government. It was true that the Govern-
ment of this country had found it necessary to pay large
sums of money to the proprietors of those railways during
the progress of construction, but that money had been paid
not out of the funds of India, but out of the funds of the
shareholders themselves. The power having been given to
pay up the calls to a great extent, they had done so. They
had paid the money in advance to the Indian government
in this country, and those payments had largely exceeded
the amount returned in the shape of the guaranteed inte-
rest ; so that thus far the guarantee had not operated as a
tax upon the Indian finances. In a paper issued last week,
giving a statement of the public debt in India, he found in-
cluded amongst the creditors of India his Majesty the King
of Oude, for a sum in the whole amounting to £1,770,000,
in three several sums bearing interest at the rate of 6,5,
a*d 4 per cent. respectively. He wished to know whether
these sums represented a debt due by India to the state of
Oude, and if so, whether the right hon. gentleman (Sir C.
Wood) woul I have any objection to state what course the
Government intended to take in respect to it—whether it
was intended to "write the money" off, as it was termed in
commercial phrase, or still to regard it as a debt ? It was
with great satisfaction that he heard the announcement that
It was intended to send out some gentleman of lair financial
experience to take charge of the financial administration of
India, a course which he had himself suggested last session,
and from which he anticipated great advantage. He thought
the timehad arrived when some improvement in the banking
affairs of India might be introduced. By banking on a large
scale, as in this country, he believed that a great improve-
ment might be effected in the mode of carrying on the
public service.

Lord STANLEY—Sir, I agree in part of what has fallen
from the right hon. gentleman, and though I might differ
from some of his opinions, still I should feel that as he
must be bound to some extent by the course of those who
preceded him in office under circumstances of a very un-
usual description, he is entitled not merely to forbearance
from opposition, but to the cordial aid of this house; and
that aid, I may venture to answer for those who sit on this
side, will be freely and frankly given. (Hear, hear.) It
is hardly possible to conceive a situation of greater diffi-
culty or responsibility than that which is occupied by who-
ever is at the present time Minister for India. The India
of 1859 is totally different from the India of three or four
years ago. No doubt internal peace has been restored ;
but there is, I am afraid, an amount of animosity and ill-
feeling in India which will take a considerable time to re-
move. The military reputation of England has been re-
trieved; but it will be impossible for the natives of India
to forget that our power was during many months seriously
shaken, and that it was so shaken although a considerable
proportion of those who had the greatest power and in-
fluence in the country not only held aloof from the move-
ment of the native army, but cordially supported us. The
financial difficulty has been clearly stated by the right hon.
baronet, and, so far from there being any tendency in this
country to underrate its magnitude, we are now, whatever
may have been the base 12 months ago, rather in danger
of running into the opposite extreme, and of considering it
as more permanently formidable than it really is. (Hear,
hear.) All the sources of difficulty which I have men-
tioned are in a great degree temporary in their character,
but while they last they aro undoubtedly the most serious
obstacles that a Minister can have to encounter.
(Hear, hear.) The question of Indian finance may be
either a very wide or a very narrow one, according
to the manner in which it is considered. There is no
subject connected with the government of the country
that • does not somewhere or another touch upon the
question of finance, and therefore if we were to go into all
the topics that might be dealt with in considering the pro-
Posed loan I scarcely know within what limits it would be
Possible to confine the debate of this evening. I cannot,
however, avoid mentioning one or two matters which are
not strictly financial ; but at the same time I shall endeavour
as closely as I can to keep to the subject actually before us.
In the present state of things it is clear that a deficit like
that which exists at the present moment can be diminished
only by one of three modes. Either taxation must be in-
creased or some measures must be taken to obtain relief be-
yond the limits of India, or else there must be a reduction
either in the civil or military expenditure. The right hon.
baronet has not held out much hope of an augmented re-
venue from an increase of taxation beyond that already
sanctioned, or now under consideration, and I am glad he
has not done so. The measures actually taken by the Go-
vernment at Calcutta for increasing the taxation of India
were determined upon independenof, though coincident
with those sanctioned by the Government at home. I be-
lieve, indeed, that the two schemes crossed each other on
the road. The Government at Calcutta proposed a larger
amount of increase than that which was recommended from
this country. I am far from saying they were wrong in doing
so ; in fact, on the part of the Government at home, I at
once acquiesced in the course they took ; but I mention the
circumstance to show that the view of the Government in
this country was not favourable to a larger increase of
taxation than that actually adopted.' A considerably larger
sum will be realised from the scheme of the authorities in
India than that which would have been received if the re-
commendations of the Government at home had been carried
into effect, but, when those sources of revenue have been
can, at abl obtained
People. Certainly,
Cthearttaminolrye
exhausted, I am not very
sanguine
other modes_events, a
mat majority of the schemes of new taxation which have
been put forth both here and in India have been more calcu-
lated to be dangerous than
productive. The proposed tobacco
tax, for example,uld be a tax upon the poorest class of
_
the people, depriving them of one of the few luxuries which
they enjoy, and from its
_nature it would be singularlyliable
to evasion, unless the collection were
denfhoercoedh
jeobytimoneaahnlso oinf
a Government monopoly, which
every respect. The plan of a succession-hetax
tshaeetmins atlnfirdisat
sight more feasible, but we must re
such a tax would assume a very different
a charactere
that which it bears in this countryP speak
with some
from
hesitation and doubt, but I do not believe thatofyoauwouldfind it easy to impose anything in the nature of
• bv. T :
succes-
sion-duty upon property other than landed property
attempt to ascertain the amount of capital possessed _
native merchant or banker would only be to incur aisape
pointment and failure ; your tax would be evaded with the
greatest possible facility, and a lax and unproductive
col-
lection would be attended withevils such as would not long
be tolerated even among the patient people of India. Even
with respect to landed property, it should be remembered
that in India, where the Government is the owner of large
portions of the land, and where the cultivators of the soil
stand in the relation of tenants, the Government is already
receiving in one shape or another as much as the land
can yield without making its cultivation unprofitable'
Any otexapt, therefore, to tax a roan who succeeded to
the occupation of landS which-he held subject to large

payments to the Government would simply be taking out
of one pocket what you are putting into another. So with
respect to the proposal to impose licences upon certain
trades. That is a proposition not free from objection in
principle, and if an attempt were made to put it in force, its
effects would require to be very closely and carefully
watched. Upon the whole, looking to the present amount
of your taxation in India; and the considerable increase
now being made in the various branches of revenue, I do
not think we can expect much more from that source.
(Hear.) Then comes the question which we have mainly,
to consider this evening—whether it is necessary or pos-
sible to afford any relief to the finances of India from any
quarter beyond India itself. Some discussion took place at
the beginning of last session as to the possibility of an Im-
perial guarantee. The arguments for and against a retro-
spective guarantee—that is to say, a guarantee upon debt
already contracted—are capable of being summed up in few
words. It is argued in favour of such a measure, that in
the event of the Indian Empire being lost, the pressure
which its creditor, would bring to bear upon the Imperial
Government would be such as no Government could resist ;
that if the Indian Government were able to borrow at an
English rate of interest upwards of £1,000,000 per annum
would be saved ; and, finally, that a guarantee would not
entail upon the Imperial Government any actual outlay,
nor would the amount, large as it might be, be sufficient
materially to lower the credit of England in the market.
(Hear.) It is contended, on the other hand, that the con-
tingent obligation to which you would render yourselves
• in a certain event liable would be greater than any Go-
vernment ought to take upon itself without absolute ne-
cessity ; that it would be wrong to remove from the Indian
Government that liability tofinancial difficulty and distress
which is one of the best securities against rashness and
improvidence; and that, to this argument I attach more
weight than to the two others—you cannot afford
the benefit of a guarantee without creating a feeling
of apprehension on the part of the holders of your
existing debt. It is well known that the reduction of in-
terest a few years ago, however reasonable and proper,
created among the natives a greater feeling of uncertainty
and unwillingness to trust the Government than any other
step which we have taken; and I am afraid that an Imperial
guarantee, naturally followed by a reduction of interest,
would produce the same discontent, only upon a larger
Wale. I sm not surprised that the right hon gentleman
does not ask Parliament to take upon itself retrospectively
the whole or any part of the Indian debt ; but I confess I
do entertain some doubt whether, looking only to the cir-
cumstances of the moment, and to the loan which it is now
proposed to raise, the same determination that India shall
rely wholly upon Indian resources is applicable to its pre-
sent condition. (Hear.) I think it may be fairly argued
whether, under present circumstance, India is not entitled
to look in some way or other to the Government of this
country. (Hear.) I have heard it stated in this house, and
upon high authority, that financially we have gained no-
thing by the possession of India ; that all we have got by it
is the power of trading there, which we would equally pos-
sess if it were an independent country. Bnt in examining
the financial relations of the two countries, it is impossible
to overlook the fact that for half a century past an immense
number of Englishmen have been employed and supported
out of the revenues of India; that those who go there are
for the most part persons without fortune ; and that they
return, if not all with great wealth, still with a compe-
tence derived from Indian resources. (Hear.) I believe
the amount of contritution, not to public, but to private
necessities, from the people of India to the people of Eng-
land cannot be taken at less than from £5,000,000 to
£6,800,000 sterling. (Hear.) Now, that is a sum which, in
striking a balance between England and India, we cannot
fairly leave out of sight. (Hear.) But I do not think you
can argue this as altogether a question of right or policy. I
am afraid—and this is one of the veryfewpoints upon which
I differ from the statement of the right hon. gentleman—
that something in the nature of imperial assistance will be-
come before long a matter of absolute necessity. I confess I
am inclined to doubt—and An this point I am supported by
the authority of an hon. gentleman who is far more inti-
mately acquainted:with this matter than I can pretend to be
—whether it will be possible to throw so large an amount
of debentures upon the market (if that be the course adopted)
without considerably decreasing their value, and I believe
it is well known that if the value of the security falls below
a certain point, you not only have to give higher terms, but
it will not be saleable upon any terms. (Hear, hear.) Well,
then, I think it ought to be considered whether the opera-
tion which the right hon. gentleman proposes will not se-
riously affect the progress of those raiblic works upon which
he justly lays so great a stress. We must remember that it
is not only the Government of India which wants money,
but I think I understood him to say that something like
£6,000,000 would be required by the various public compa-
nies connected with India. They will go into the market
equally upon the credit of the Indian Government, so that
in point of fact there will be required not £5,000,000, but
£11,000,000 which the Government and the companies will
be borrowing together. (Hear, hear.) I think, therefore,
the question may arise—not merely as a matter of policy or
of right, but as a matter of sheer necessity consequent on
failure of credit—whether the assistance of the Imperial
Government should not be given, not retrospectively, but
to satisfy present exigencies, and to cesse when those exi-
gencies cease. If, however no proposition of that kind is en-
tertained by the house, then, I think, another question
arises, which may be taken in either of two ways as between
the finances of India and England. Parliament will have
to consider on what ground it can justify, at a time of diffi-
culty like the present, the distinction which has always ex-
isted, and for which I have never known a reason assigned,
between the military expenditure of the colonies and
of India. It would be madness to contend that the
same rule should be applied to the two cases. That
would be wholly out of the question ; but I thins that
both the Indian and the colonial system of military
expenditure might mutually borrow something with
advantage. Take, for instance, the case of a large
colony like the Cape, where the finances are flourishing, and
the population prosperons, but where arl enormous military
expenditure is borne by this country. I have never been
able to understand why the British Government does not
reduce its military expenditure on account of such colonies
as these, giving to their Government the option of defraying
part of the charges of the Imperial troops stationed there,
or of establishing a local militia. (Hear.) Of course I know
that you are bound by many old engagements, and that if
any change is made it must be a gradual one. But the fact
remains, that in the case of the colonies we take too much
of the military expenditure upon ourselves, while in the
case of India we go into what I think is the opposite ex-
treme, by absolutely refusing to hold ourselves liable for
any portion of the military expenditure there. (Hear.)
Now, I think that, not relying on one single instance, but
taking the whole course of our colonial government in this
respect, and comparing the two systems, it would not be
difficult to prove that, unless the force in the colonies is
altogether disproportionate to their wants, India has in point
of justice some claim to assistance in bearing its military
charges. (Hear.) If this view be not adopted, there is
another which deserves consideration. I think it will be
found if we look into the history of the military charges
imposed upon India, and of the wars carried on by the In-
dian Government, that some of these have been distinctly
undertaken from English and Imperial as distinguished
from local policy. (Hear.) Take, for instance, the Affghan
war. (Hear.) If can be proved that England, considered
apart from her connection with India, had an interest in
that war. It was an English war, carried on from motives
of European policy, and yet I believe every shilling of the
expenditure has been defrayed by the Indian exchequer.
(Hear.) Now, I mention these circumstances because if the
Indian Government is driven, as I believe it will be by
necessity, to appeal to this country for financial aid, either
in the form of a guarantee for a new loan or in any
other way, I think it will be wise and just to remember
then that that appeal is not altdgether a groundless one,
that it is not an appeal ad miser wordiam, arising merely
from the necessities of the Indian exchequer, but that it
really has some foundation in reason and in justice. (Hear,
hear.) Well, then, let us next consider what it may be
possible to accomplish in the reduction of Indian expendi-
ture. We have been told of a deficit of £10,000,000, the
expenditure in round numbers being £46,000,000, and the
income only £36,000,000. With regard, first, to the cost
of the civil service, I pass over the expenses of the
home Government, for they are comparatively insignificant.
The question was argued at great length, and was very re-
cently settled by Parliament, and I do not apprehend that,
for the sake of any slight saving of the salary of one or two
members of the Council, it would be worth while for Go-
vernment or for Parliament to interfere with that settle-
ment. The principal value of the Home Council of India
will, I think, be found to consist in the assistance which it
will afford to the Indian Minister of the day in resisting
claims and charges which there is always a tendency to
throw unduly upon the Indian exchequer. (Hear, hear.) I
am not speaking now of any particular time or Government;
the controversy to which I refer has gone on ever since the
Board of Control was established ; but where there is a large
amount of discretionary military expenditure with regard to
which, at various times, questions may arise as to whether it
should fall upon India or upon England—where there is a
Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Government naturally
bent on reducing English expenditure as far as they can in
the Parliamentary estimates—thereswill always be an incli-
nation, an involuntary, an inevitable inclination, to throw
upon India, especially in military matters, financial charges
which belong properly to England. (Hear, hear.) A body
of men like the members of the Indian Council who are
independent of the Government and of the Treasury will
therefore be highly useful in resisting this pressure. (Hear.)
With respect to the larger question of the civil administra
tibn in India. itself, I can only say that in dealing with it
there are in my opinion two distinct and separate points to
be considered. The first is what course we ought to take
with:respect to that subject at the present ; the second, what
it may be in our power ultimately to carry into effect.
Looking merely to the exigencies of this, or to those of the
next two or three years, I concur with the right hon. gen-
tleman opposite in thinking that nothing worth speaking of
can be done in the way of reduction in that direction. I say
so because it is quite clear that, except in cases of extraordi-
nary emergency, you could hardly redace existing salaries
by any large amount, and it may be a question, if you did so,
whether the saving thus effected would compensate the
country for the discontent which such a proceeding would
unquestionably create. With respect to the future, I can
only say that I do not concur with what fell from the right
hon. gentleman—and it was almost the only sentence to
which he gave expression which I heard with regret—as to
the expediency of increasing the amount of Europeans em-
ployed in the civil service in India. The state of feeling
which exists at the present moment—a state of feeling which
is, perhaps, not the unnatural result of the distrust and
jealousy which such a struggle as that which they have just
gone through tends to engender between two distinct races
—may be favourable to such a change. That feeling, how-
ever, will not, I feel assured, be permanent in India, and I,
for one, see no good reason for altering the opinion which
met with such general concurrence in 1853, and which was
favourable to our introducing ultimately larger and larger
numbers of the natives—especially educated natives—of
India into the civil service (Hear, hear.) 1 do not, indeed
suppose that any one would propose to do away with the
covenanted service. It may or it may not become, in, the
presentwithou time mt
taking
n g working
such
hwaell,ceand
course of time, faulty as an institution ; but it is at the
,dimspeeannsse
may be
beit.
ground of objection toyouhocannwevoetr
adopted to remove that h'urse,
w the le which
service—namely,
rynce lndian forms
amey the
it entirelys principal
risk of favouritism and
exclusive character.
a departure from the jobbing
(Hear, hear.) I am aware of the
which may be incurred by
I also know that nothingstness of the existing rule ; but
India, whether its memberes uncovenanted service of
courage those who form the
operates so much to dis
be
as the knowledge that there is a limit
inpeathne native
as
official rank beyond which they must nor hope to pass.
(Hear.) And when I had the
honour
believe the object
eaueseemfelrisol being in office I
he only by means
winhteienhdethtaodbirninvig
ebs coulde,foret be
ehe
of an Act of Parliament—a measure accomplished
which I thought
the present necessities of the case might be met. I should
have proposed that it should be possible—notwithstanding
former Acts limiting certain offices to the covenanted ser-
vice--that the uncovenanted servants should be admitted
to any or to all of those posts, but only after a certain num-
ber of years' service in the country, and upon the recom-
mendation of the Governor-General, and with the sanction
of the Secretary of State. If you establish these three
checks; aided as you would be by the individual jealousy of
the covenanted service itself, which always looks with dis.

favour upon those who enter it from without, and would
prevent the privilege from being abused, and if you pro-
ceed in the first instance gradually, admitting in rare in-
stances those who deserved well in the lower branches of
the service of India, be they natives or Europeans, my
.pinion is fhat you would be enabled ultimately to effect, I
will not not say a very large, but a considerable saving
in the general expenditure of that country. (Hear.) You
would do more ; you would give satisfaction to a large
class of persons who now look upon their position with
feelings of discontent, and thus economise, though in a dif-
ferent way, to a greater extent than you suppose. (Hear.)
There is also another measure with respe9t to the Indian
Civil Service on which I am anxious to say a few words,
and which is, I believe, at present under consideration. I
thought a saving—though certainly, perhaps, not a very
considerable one—might be effected by dealing with the
higher departments of the Indian service, and thus afford-
ing an indication of the intention of the Government to en-
force economy in earnest. In speaking of the higher de-
partments of the service I refer especially to the composi-
tion of the Governor-General's Council in Calcutta. At
present that council consists of four members, each of
whom receives a salary of £B,OOO per annum. They
are, however, charged with the duties of no particular de-
partment, and simply revise and superintend, as it were,
the whole administration, thus acting as a nominal—for it
is only a nominal—check on the Governor-General, while
they write minutes home on all the subjects which come
under their notice. Now, it is, I admit, quite right that
the Governor-General, who has had in many instances no
previous acquaintance with India, should, on his arrival
there, be surrounded by competent and experienced ad-
visers. I am nevertheless of opinion that you might have
a council equally efficient as the present, and yet effect a
saving of expenditure to some extent, if, instead of employ-
ing councillors who discharge no executive functions, you
would engage the services of those in that capacity who
happened to be the actual heads of the principal depart-
ments. (Hear. hear.) I of course do not; mean these ob-
vations to refer to those who now occupy the position of
members of the Council of India. I simply mean to sug-
gest it as a proposal worthy of a consideration, that as in
England we have a Cabinet—which is the consulting body
—the individual members of which have charge of separate
departments, while they are collectively responsible for the
conduct of affairs, so in India, a similar system might be
established. Something would be saved directly by the
adoption of such a course ; but I believe a still greater ad-
vantage might be gained indirectly, inasmuch as there
would be less cause for complaint in the lower branches of
the service, when it was found that reductions had coin•
menced in the higher quarters. (Hear.) But however that
may be, I am of opinion that in considering the balance of
income and expenditure it will be found that a large reduc-
tion in the present outlay in India must be on account of rail-
ways. About £20,000,000 capital—to speak in round num-
bers—have been paid up. The interest which the Indian
Government has guaranteed, and which is paid, amounts to
£1,000,000. From this expenditure there has been as yet very
little return, inasmuch as there are cniy a fewlines open, and
there is in consequence hardly anything to be set off against
the, outlay. When, however, the main lines are once com-
pleted I feel confident that—although a line here and there
may not pay—it will be found, setting off the good against
the bad, that they will more than meet the amount which
has been guaranteed. You may, therefore, look forward to
a prospective reduction in this respect of £500,000 or
£1,000,000. I cannot help thinking also—although the
point is one on which I venture to give an opinion with
some hesitation—that the sums we have paid in the shape
of compensation will not be altogether without ari,offset in
future years. The account is not, at all events, so unfa-
vourable as it may appear to be, because, notwithstanding
the large and liberal sums which have been given in making
lines in different parts of India, something must be due to
the Government of that country in connection with for-
feited estates. But passing from that subject, I may be per-
mitted to observe that the right hon. gentleman stated only
the simple fact when he told us that the question of equali-
sing the balance of income and expenditure depended mainly
upon the position in which we maintained our military force.
The expense of the Indian army previous to the insurrection
was £12,500,000. It has been since that period nearly
doubled, and that circumstance alone would more than ac-
count for the total deficit of the last two or three years.
Upon this score I entertain no sanguine anticipations, in-
asmuch as I think it will be impossible to return for some
time to the old standard in the case of our military force in
India. The right hon. gentleman stated truly enough
that, previous to the mutiny, between 45,000 and 46,000
troops were the maximum amount of the European force
in India; the number of the native army being then
250,000, while they have since increased enormously; the
' European force also being much greater than before. Now,
with respect to the native troops, I may say that if no re-
duction has been made before the present time in their
number it has been because the Government of India on the
spot did not think it expedient that any such reduction
should be made. The Indian authorities have, indeed, been
pressed over and over again by the Home Government
to make such reductions in the native force as they
thought could be made consistently with the safety of the
empire. For my own part, I believe this may be done, and
soon, without giving rise to any discontent on the part of
the men themselves, especially in the case of men such as
those who come from the Punjab, and who were informed
that their services would be required only for a particular
emergency. Looking at the whole military question, and
with a lively recollection of the condition of Indian finance,
I confess, though on this point I speak with hesitation and
doubt, I do not see that it would in any case be safe or wise
to reduce the European force hereafter to be retained in
India below 60,000 or 65,000. I am not speaking of what
would be advisable in a military point of view, but I do not
think any Minister would take upon himself to reduce the
European force below that number, and I am afraid that
force would impose a very serious burden on the resources
of India. (Hear.) With regard to the native force un-
doubtedly a much larger reduction might be made and I
think when the immediate exigency is over, this question
of military police, on which an enormous outlay has taken
place, ought to be looked into carefully and minutely. In
every case this great force of military police was raised by
the authorities on the spot, and not in consequence of direc-
tions from home. I do not say that it was a mistake, or
could be avoided, but, of course, when the force was par-
tially created and a good defl of money had been spent, we
had no option except to sanction that expenditure. (Hear,
hear.) I know that many of the highest authorities doubt
whether, with the exception of newly-acquired countries,
any police force should be kept on a purely military organi-
sation. (Rear, hear.) There is the danger of such a force
becoming neither one thing nor the other—not disciplined
enough for a military force, and at the same time too regular
a force for the ordinary duties of police. If I had to suggest the
means bywhich the military organisation could be diminished,
T should say that in the first place it would be better for the
Indian Government to confine their attention to the army
of Bengal, and not attempt to introdude large changes into
those of Madras and Bombay. (Hear, hear.) I think also,
that whatever other steps are taken a large proportion of the
European force maintained in India—probably not less than
two-thirds—should be troops exclusively for Indian service.
I say that on many grounds, partly because it is a great
object to save the cost of transport to and fro, but mainly
because I think that if you withdraw from the Governor-
General and the administration of India the assistance of
many hundredaof able and intelligent young men who have
gone out as officers, intending to pass their lives in India,
and available for either civil or military duties, and if you
replace them by men of equal intelligence and ability, yet
not intending to remain beyond a few years, you weaken
the Indian administration in a civil and military point of
view to an extent hardly possible to calculate. (Hear, hear.)
I do not know that there are any other remarks which I
feel it my duty to make at present. The subjects connected
with Indian administration are almost without limit, and it
is possible to go into them at much greater length ; but I
have endeavoured to dwell upon those which have a more
immediate and practical reference to Indian finance. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said—l have so often addressed the house
on this question that I feel some hesitation in asking for any
portion of the time of the committee this evening. Notwith-
standing the opinion expressed by the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary for India, that he does not see anything
gloomy in the future of India, I confess that in my view the
question assumes yearly greater magnitude and greater peril.
Having given some attention to the subject for some years, I
may perhaps be allowed to take my share, be it more or less,in
the attempt which is being made to confront the great evils
which beset it. The right hon. gentleman has given us,
when we recollect how insufficient are the accounts obtain-
able from India, as clear an account of the state of Indian
affairs as could be expected, and it seems to me to come to
this, that• we have, as we have had for the last 20 years
in India, a rapidly accumulating deficit upon deficit, and
debt upon debt. The right hon. gentleman says that
when he left the office of Secretary for India, I think in
185,5, that conntry was in a flourishing condition. It cer-
tainly did happen that, by a management .which I have
observed in Indian affairs, the deficit was brought down to
£150,000.
Sir C. WOOD—There was a surplus.
Mr. BRIGHT—I believe that there was a-deficit some-
thing like that. But if the right hon. gentleman will allow
me to take the three years before the mutiny, that will give
us a better idea of the real state of the case, which it is no
use our endeavouring to avoid, as it will surely find us out.
In the three years before the mutiny the deficit was about
£1,800,000, being nearly a million for each year. That was
not the fault of the right hon. gentleman, he did not cause
the deficit, and I only state this to show that things were
not in so flourishing a state as the right hon. gentleman
wished to show. There is another point of very great im-
portance. It appears to me that a government must be a
bad government when it cannot defray its expenses out of
the taxation of the people. In India there is a source of re-
venue which is not levied by taxation on the people, the re-
venue derived from opium, which is levied in the same
manner as the revenue derived by Peru from the export of
guano. If we turn to the three years to which I have
alluded, and see what relation the revenue received by the
Government bore to tho. taxes levied on the people, it will
be found either that the people were too poor to pay, or that
the Government was extravagant in its expenditure, for
the tax on opium produced ten millions and a half, and
if you add that to the two millions and a half of deficit on
the three years, you get a deficit of 13 millions, which is
exactly the sum over and above that which was
raised by the Government from the taxation of the people.
This ought to be a source of alarm, for we know that the
revenue derived from opium is precarious, and that, from
causes connected with variations in the climate of India,
or from variations in the conduct of the government
of China, that source of revenue may be impaired or
entirely cut off. The right hon. gentleman has brought
before us the position in which we now are,
and it is in a few words this : the debt of India has
been constantly rising until it amounts to a hundred
millions sterling. (No, no.) The right hon. gentleman said
that it is now 95 millions, and that he expects a deficit of
five millions next year, and therefore it is fair to argue that
the debt is 100 millions, and the deficit 12 millions this year
and is expected to be 10 millions next year. It is not to be
wondered at that there is a difficulty in borrowing money
on account of India. I amnotsurprised that the hon. mem-
ber for Kendal should have been so lively about the house
to-night, for I believe that he and others connected with the
City are endeavouring to impress on the right hon. gentle.
man that money is not to be got for India. It cannot be bor-
rowed without the payment of high interest, and perhaps
not at all, except that England, notwithstanding the troubles
she gets into, either by the blood of her soldiers or by some
other cause, somehow or other manages to scramble through
her difficulties, and contrives to maintain a reputation for
good faith greater than that of any nation in the world.
With regard to an imperial guarantee, I differ from the
noble lord (Stanley), though I agree with him with regard
to an opinion he expressed on the question of military ex-
penditure. Last year I said that the cost of the Affghan war,
amounting to to millions, ought to have been thrown on
the taxation of England, as that war was undertaken by
the Government for purposes said to be English., but as I
say, neither Indian nor English, and it was most unjust
that it should have been thrown on the revenue of India. I
do not oppose an imperial guarantee because I have any
sympathy in this respect with the English taxpayer, for he
has been most negligent with regard to the affairs of India,
and ought to suffer for his neglect. I think it is an injustice
to impose millions as burdens on the Indian taxpayer on
account of matters with which ho has nothing to do, and
which will not hringhina a, handful more or less of the rice
he eats. But robjeet to an imperial guarantee beCause if

you let the administration of India know that, having ex-
hausted the resources of India, they can put their hands
into the pockets of the English people for what they want—
(hear, hear)—and we having no control over them—(hear,
hear)—l do not know how far they may be tempted to
go, and I do not know whether if, in endeavouring to save
India, you might not ruin England. (Hear, hear.) There
is another question of Indian finance, and that is the enor•
mous proportion which the military service takes of the
whole taxation of India. It may be shown that almost the
whole net revenue of India is absorbed by the military ser-
vice, and that not a farthing is left to pay the civil service,
and to pay the public creditor, for if you leave out the
amount derived from the duty on opium you will see that
more than all the net revenue raised by the taxation of the
people of India is absorbed by the military service of India.
That is a state of things which has never existed in any
country or at any time without bringing with it anarchy
and ruin. We are told by the Governor-General that the
great bulk of the revenue of India is not elastic. With re-
gard to the land tax, for a long period it has shown no in-
crease, but on the contrary there has been rather some de-
crease in that great source of income. Then he tells us
further that the army cannot at present be safely reduced.
If so, what does it come to? It must come to one of two
things, either the government of India is coming to an end,
or England must become the tributary of India ; and, see-
ing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has recently asked
for 70 millions from the English tax-payer, any proposition
for adding to that five or six millions for the government
of India will be received with no little dissatisfaction by
the country. The view, therefore, is alarming, although
so much satisfaction has been expressed by the Secretary
for India: I have been twitted by some persons in this house
for taking the alarm and looking round, for some mode of
escape, and they say that there are some modes, if we will
adopt them. One hon. gentleman says that I am no better
than the rest, that I know that the government of India
cannot be carried on in this country, and that it would be
better for us to withdraw, and endeavour to re-establish
something like the ancient government of India. Another
hon. gentleman asks if there is no one who will tell the House
of Commons the truth in this matter. I do not know why he
does not tell it himself. Perhaps he thinks he would be too
rash. But he wishes that the Government should re-estab-
lish the Punjaub, restore the Ameers of Scinde, replace the
King of Oude in his dominions, and give back the territory
of Nagpore. I confess, whether it be rash or not, that I
think it would be 'vise to restore the government of the
Punjaub, and to give independence to that province which
is called Scinde, because—l will not say because—but, it is
one reason, as from that part of the country no revenue is
received in excess of the expense which its retention causes
to this country, why we should endeavour to bring our do-
minicals in India within a reasonable and manageable com-
pass. Nothing can be more idiotic than the policy we have
pursued of late years in India, and the dreadful calamity
which has occurred is, the natural result of that policy. It
is not easy when you have earls and marquises for Govers
nor-generals, and when you erect bronze statues on squares
to those who have carried out this policy, it is not easy
for the men who have been doing all this to turn round
and pursue an opposite course, and consenting to dimi-
nish our empire might be wrongly construed in the
world ; but as far as good government is concerned, in
a few years every one will admit that it will be a
wise policy to circumscaibe our territory in India.
I may be sure, however, that it is not likely that the
government—that it is not likely that the House of Com-
mons—will come to such an opinion until some greater ex-
tremity comes upon us. There is another course which may
be pursued, and that is, that taking the country as it stands,
with our annexations as they are, let us see if we cannot do
better than we have done, and give us a chance of redeeming
our character for the management of the finances and legis •
lation of India. The noble lord says truly that no serious
diminution o'f expenditure can be expected in the civil ser-
vice. But I do not agree with him or with the Secretary for
India when they give the house to understand that these
gentlemen of the civil service are not overpaid. No set of
men in the world, except some bishops and archbishops that
we have heard of—(laughter)—are so grossly overpaid as
the civil service of India. As a proof of it, look at Ceylon.
The duties of the civil service there are as great, the climate
as trying, but you do not pay them one-half that which the
civil service in India receives. Then you have the officers of
the Indian army, and the clergy, and the missionaries, and
the English merchants who live in India, and carry on busi-
ness at a rate of profit not much greater than they could get
in this country, but the civil service, like every thing privi.
leged and exclusive, is pampered and overpaid, and notwith-
standing that there have been able men among them who
have done their duty, it does not, in my opinion, deserve
the high praises I have heard given to it by speakers in this
house. If you wonld reduce the expenditure of the civil
service, the best thing Sou could do would be to increase
the magistracy and the administration in every district.
in American gentleman who has written on the subject of
India says that you want a hundred European magistrates
for every one that you have ; but if you could double the
number of magistrates by reducing the incomes of the
members of the civil service by one-half, you might not
save mono, for the payment of the deficit and the interest
on the debt, but you would have a more efficient and com-
plete service. The question of military expenditure is
one which this house will have to take in hand, for it is
clear that the Secretary for India, with the fifteen gentle-
men at Leadenhall-street, just as the noble lord the
late secretary, with the fifteen gentlemen around him was,
is afraid to grapple with this question. I am not surprised
that he should hesitate, for he will have every military
man making the strongest remonstrances against reduc-
tion. We have heard that before the revolt the English
troops in India were 45,000, and the native troops were
250,000. Now we find that the number of 45,000 is raised
to 110,000, and the 2.50,000 is become upwards of 300,000.
What were we told during the revolt in all those learned
letters of English officers which appeared in the news-
papers? Every one said that the great folly we had com-
mitted was having a native army far larger than we re-
quired ; that this was our. peril, and this had been the only
cause of the mutiny. But now we have a larger portion
of this perilous element than before ! The authorities of
India do not appear to have learnt anything from the
mutiny, or else all that we have heard was untrue, for they
have 50,000 more native troops now than they had before.
(Hear, hear.) Their mode of argument seems to be this—
the native army was the cause of the peril, and therefore
it was necessary to have more of it ; and since 45,000 Eng-
lish troops were not enough to keep the former native
army in check, we have now 110,000, and it is declared
that 80,000 or 85,000 are the fewest we can do with. But,
if you must have one body of troops to watch another,
there is no chance of any reduction of expenditure. The
revolt, terrible as it was, was suppressed mainly by the
4.5,000 English who were in India, and not by the 100,000
sent out later. At present, if those who were disaffected in
India are not satisfied, they are at least dispirited, and all
hope of resisting the power of England for a long time to
come has disappeared. You have disarmed millions of peo-
ple throughout vast provinces, and I read a few days ago
that 1,600 forts in the kingdom of Oude have been destroyed,
as we know.many ethers have been in various parts of the
country. There is at this moment no power of combined, or-
panised, armed resistance, except that which exists in the
native army, which your Indian Government has been
building up of late to a greater extent than before. The noble
lord spoke of the want of confidence between the two races
in consequence of the events of the last two years. The
shock of the revolt must have bred suspicion, hatred, and
fear. Panic grows most readily out of these conditions, and
there is panic in India:which is perhaps infectious, since we
see something of the sort here. Under that panic, recollect-
ing what has passed, the Government, the civil service,
and the military officers cannot feel it would be safe to have
a smaller military force. But if you ask any military officers
in any country they will tell you there is never enough
military force. The other evening somebody remarked of
this that " there is nothing like leather," and there are ad-
mirals in this house who can never have enough of ships—
if the Channel were crowded with them, theywould eall for
a larger fleet. It is so, also, though I am glad to see not in
this house to so great an extent, with regard to troops.
Naval and military officers are not the men to whom Chan-
cellors of the Exchequers must depute the great and solemn
duty of determining what must be expended for such pur-
poses. Any country would be bankrupt and ruined if the
military authorities were to determine what military force
should be kept up, and how much of the public revenue should
be employed in gaping for it. But I have another objection to
this great army, and here 1 come to the question of policy
which the Secretary of State has not touched. With this
great army there are two things you will never have. You
will neverl/4have reforms of the government of India of any
kind, and you will never have an improved conduct of the
English in India towards the natives. With a power like
this of 110,000 English troops, an English regiment within
hail of every officer of your civil service, the supremacy of
the conquering race will be displayed in its most offensive
form. We know that when the English were supposed to
be feeble in India, when we had no great armies, fleets, and
revenues there, every Englishman treated the natives who
surrounded him with the feeling that he was rather an in-
truder in the country, and that it was not only proper but
absolutely necessary to treat the natives in a just and con-
ciliatory manner. It was precisely as our power increased,
and as we found, from the docility of these people that we
had nothing to fear from their anger, that our countrymen
unfortunately assumed another character. I find in that
admirable 'book of the Hon. F. Shaw's, that even 30 years
ago this was the cause of an ill-feeling between the two
races in India, which has grown from that time to this,
until now there is so much irritation and animosity as per-
haps can hardly in our time be allayed. The Government,
with this great army; must always be in difficulties. Lord
Canning, or Lord Anybody Else, can attend to nothing but
this wearying, exasperating question of hoiv the money is
to be got for the next quarter for the payment of the army;
he can attend to no measures of reform. The House of
Commons must, therefore, insist on it that the Government
shall, whatever be the risk, reduce this army to a very large
extent. A great army will make it impossible for you to
hold the country, for your debt will be constantly increas-
ing, and anarchy must overwhelm you in the end. Have a
small army, or a moderate army, with a conciliatory and
just Government, and with your finances in a prosperous
condition, and I know not but for centuries the English
race may have a share in the government of those vast
territories which they have conquered. (Hear.) I admit
that it is of very litttle use tol attempt reductions, unless
you also attempt improvements. My charge against the
Indian Government is this—that there is no suck
thing as a real Government of India at all—that there is
no Government responsible either to any public opinion
there, or any public opinion here, so that we cannot expect
a better policy, or happier results from it. Imagine a Go-
vernment over which the tax-payers had not the slightest
control. The people of India had no control oser the Go-
vernment. There is no independent English opinion there,
the only opinion which the Government feels is that of the
civil and militaryservice, but chiefly the civil service; they
are not the payers, but the spenders and enjoyers of the
taxes. The Government of India is therefore in a most
unfortunate position for fulfilling its duties. The civil ser-
vice, being privileged, is arrogant and—l had almost said
—tyrannous. The military service is clamorous and insa-
tiable for more expenditure. The Governor-General him-
self is the creature of these circumstances. He submits to
no kind of home control. A case which occurred whilst
the noble lord who has just spoken was in office will ex-
emplify this. During last year the hon. member for Stock-
port,k _
who both in the house and in committee has
question
about
duoini-
tiring attention to Indian questions put a sti t
the annexation of a small territory called the Rajahship of
Dahr. The news reached us on the 20th of March last
year. and on the 23d the question was put. The hon. mem-
bert for Inverness, then Under-Secretary, informed us that
it was the act of the Govornor-General, who was solely re-
isnpfoonrsmibalteion about,andtbaitt.thelnG
jovuneronmtheentnohbelree
to the house thathe had-disallowed the annexation of Dalin
The despatch of the noble lord so disallowing it was dated
the 22d of June last year, asking the Governor-General for
further information. It appeared the Governor-General lhoradd announcednafurther
e
as-
sumed that this unfortunate Rajahship bad been guilty of
grosS misdemeanors, because its troops had revolted. The
noble lord in his despatch remarked that it would not be just
to deprive the Rajah of his territories for this, when we
could not keep our own troops in order. In the preceding
Aprilwtahee
britß a Rupee, e eb ,0 mothery o f thi
rotre
emn teheenrt-
vernor-Gencral, remonstrating against this wrong, and
ian -ml aewmoorifalt ht
toe t
hßeajGabo
showing reasons to prove that they were notwho
' This memorial was not aekno*ledged,- and in April

last, when the papers relating to this matter were laid on the
table of the house, the memorial of the Ranee, of which I
have a copy, was not included amongst them. The noble
lord wrote his despatch on the 22d of June, 1858, and to
this hour of the Ist of August, 1859, I believe no answer has
been returned to it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord dis-
allowed the annexation ; he argued the question against it ;
he condemned it ; he asked the Governor-General for infor-
mation ; and to this hour, I believe, there has not come any
official reply or answer from the Governor-General. I say
it is not fitting that the Secretary of State for India should
be treated thus—with such utter disregard or contempt—
by any great satrap who happens to be sent out to govern
India. This case shows that there is no Government of
India responsible to the Government at home. It shows
that, even amidst the terrific hurricane of that mutiny, the
thirst of annexation was still insatiate ; that at the moment
when the Queen was about to send out her gracious pro-
clamation an act of direct and evident injustice was com-
mitted against a boy thirteen years of age, the ruler of a
small territory ; and this was done in utter disregard of the
disapproval of the Government here or of the just senti-
ments of the people of England. And it must be so with
the Government of Calcutta. Procrastination is the very
nature of that Government of Calcutta. The noble lord
(Lord Stanley) did an excellent thing in appointing a man of
a new sort to be Governor of Madras, Sir Chas. Trevelyan,
whom I believe to be a very intelligent man, earnest and
anxious to do his best for the good of India. But Sir
Charles Trevelyan finds that at Madras he is like a man who
is manacled, as all the governors of those presidencies are, so
that he can do almost nothing. He has a spirit above being
a mere passive instrument in the hands of the Governor-
General, and therefore he has been disposed to make several
changes, which are looked upon as excessively heterodox
by the persons connected with the old Government of India,
the fifteen gentlemen who sit in Leadenhall street, and
their brethren in India. He has endeavoured to con-
ciliate the natives by abolishing certain ceremonial
distinctions which were supposed to degrade them when
visiting Government house, and also by " general courtesy,"
which appears to be not usually practised in India—by con-
spicuously rewarding the chief native officers, by appoint-
ing a native aide-de-camp, by inviting native gentlemen to
meet him at a monthly durbar, by promising a settlement
of the land tax and of the enam, by abolishing the impress-
ment of cattle and carts, and by abolishing three-fourths,
or perhaps more, of the paper work of public servants. He
has at the same time undertaken the great task of judicial
reform. Now, what is said of him ? He has got himself
into a hornet's nest, all Calcutta is up against him, and the
Government newspapers cry out, " We might as well have
Madras independent if the Governor of Madras is to do
just what he likes." The Friend of India, writing in May
last, speaks of him as follows :—" it Charles relies doubt-
less on Lord Stanley, and we do not dream of denying that
the -Secretary of State has provocation enough to excuse
the unusual course he seems obliged to pursue. To send a
reform to Calcutta is at present simply to lay it aside. It
will probably not even be answered for two years, certainly
not carried in five. Even when sanctioned it will have to
pass through the crucible from which no plan can escape
entire." And then, with some sympathy for the unfortu-
nate wretches who have to appeal to Calcutta for anything,
the Friend of India exclaims, "That weary waiting for
Calcutta, of which all men, from Lord Stanley to the people
of Singapore, now have to complain, may well tempt the
Secretary of State to carry on his plans by the first mode
offered to his hands." Two or three articles I have seen to
the same purport. I am justified, therefore, in condemning
a Secretary of State who contents himself with giving us
the mere figures which any clerk in his office could have
given, and abstains from explaining that policy of the Go-
vernment of India upon which alone you can base any
solid improvement in the condition of that country. There
is another point I would mention. The Governor-General
of India goes out knowing little or nothing of India. When
he is appointed he probably does what any of us would do
—takes down the first volume of Mill's "British India,"
and begins to read about it. We have heard from the hon.
member for Aberdeen that there are 21 different nations and
21 languages in India. The Governor-General goes out
knowing none of them. He is surrounded, -however, by
half-a-dozen or a dozen gentlemen whO have been in India
from 15 to 40 years, having scrambled up from a moderate
beginning to high positions. No Governor-General can
travel over any considerable part of India ; he is there in an
official circle, breathing an official atmotphere—and all is
dim or dark beyond it. Duties are laid upon it utterly be-
yond either the mental or bodily strength of any one to per-
form. Turning from the Governor-General to the mem-
bers of the Indian civil service, it is remarkable how short
a time any man remains in any particular office. A com-
mittee upstairs took the evidence Of Mr. Underhill, secretary
of the Baptist mission in India, who says that throughout
Bengal there are three or four Englishmen to a million of
inhabitants, and that there is a perpetual change of magis-
trates. In the city of Dacca, for a period of 20 years, there
was a change every ten months. He gives the names of
some—Mr. Henry Lushington, for instance, who during
21 years filled 21 different offices, besides spending four years
and a quarter in two visits to Europe • Mr. J. P. Grant,
now Governor of Bengal, during 13 years, held 24 dif-
ferent situations, being an average of less than six months ;
Mr. Charles Grant in 13 years held 17 offices, being eight
months for each office, and Mr. Halliday, the late Governor
of Bengal, in 18 years held 21 different offices, and did not
become stationary till he obtained the lucrative office of
Governor of Bengal. These facts show that there is some-
thing in the character of the Indian Ckovernment which
made it no government at all except for taxes and spending
of taxes. It is no government for overseeing the people or
bestowing upon them those blessings which we pretend to
ourselves that our government is established to promote.
What can the Governor-General do with this council, and
these ever-changing officers in every deyartment ? What, he
asked, had the Government of India ever yet done for the
people? The judges, for the most part in the company's courts
were without training and without law, and perjury and wrong
were universal wherever those courts were established. The
officers of finance had no system of book-keeping; the Sec-
retary for India could only give accounts up to April, 1858,
and since that there was nothing but a mere estimate.
Every figure for a year later ought to have been on the
table of the house ; but in reality there was no Government,
and that was the reason why it was not done. Sir C. Wood
had spoken of the increase of trade ; but when so many mil-
lions had been spent on railways and on the war the in-
crease was in great part accounted for, and could not be
expected to continue. (Hear, hear.) The point he wished
to bring the Government to was this. A great improve-
ment might be made without dislocating anything. Let
them decentralise their Government. It was impossible to
govern twenty-one nations, with twenty-one different lang-
uages, by means of half-a-dqzen men who knew nothing of
the wants of the people. If the country were divided into
provinces of 20 millions each under their own Government,
it; would be quite possible to govern India with advantage
to the country. He believed that the bill of last session
had been of little benefit in this respect. He would recom-
mend the right hon. gentleman to give independent govern-
ments in the first place to each of the presidencies, allowing
each of those governments to correspond with the home
Government. At present there was no kind of tie between
the governor and the governed. Why should not we do in
Madras what had been done in the island of Ceylon?
There the council consisted of sixteen members, six
of whom at least were independent of Government—
namely, a Bungalese, a Brahmin, a half-caste, and three
English merchants. These, though not a majority, repre-
sented the public opinion. Why should not something of
the same kind take place in the Indian governments ? At
present they were in fetters, as Sir C. 1 revelyan was in
fetters ; but he hoped that the civil service would not get
up a rebellion against him. (Hear.) With reference to
religious instruction in India, he would caution the right
honourable gentleman against any attempt to alter exist-
ing institutions with a view to the abolition of caste.
The accounts of the reading of the Queen's procla-
mation showed that toleration of the native religions was
the be-all and end-all with the people of India. For years
past the East India Company had shown that nobody could
write despatches and proclamations in so Christian a spirit,
and yet whose conduct was so unchristian. (Hear, hear.)
Referring to the regulations for admission to the civil ser-
vice of India, the hon. gentlemen mentioned the case of a
young native who had come to this country for the express
purpose of preparing himself for the civil service; but,
-owing to the age of admission being suddenly reduced from
23 to 22, ho had been obliged to abandon his design,
although his father had expended £1,500 in his education.
Had this young man been allowed to enter the civil service
the result would have been that numbers of youths in
similar positions would have become candidates, and it
would have been necessary to establish examinations in
India. (Hear.) Had this young man and a few others
come into the civil service, it would have been worth at
least a regiment of soldiers. (Hear.) The more he con-
sidered and discussed the government of India, the more
convinced he was that no improvement could be made ex-
cept by decentralising the Government, and making the
government of each province ton large extent independent.
Under the present system one man was expected to govern
280 millions of people. As well might they expect all
Europe to be governed by a native of the Feejee leland .
(Hear, hear.) Look at what was taking place in India now.
Would the mutiny of our troops have occurred if there had
been anything like government in the country? Was it
not likely that the natives would take advantagnethere
of thee
state of the European army organisevoThe fact was, we had put down all government but our own.
The chiefs of tribes and provinces were now wanderers on
the soil where once they ruled. (Hear,
of things would soon become serious. i hear.) This state
ire were showing to
could conquer we could
the people of India that though 7
not govern, and he hoped it mightelnedoet future that
India was avenged by the dreadfu ram both of men and
money which she inflicted upon this country. (Cheers.)
Mr. T. G. BARING said there were many points which
the hon. gentleman the member for Birmingham had
given utterance to, in which he entirely concurred; but
there was, on the other n ha d, much that the right hon.
gentleman had expressed in which he could not agree. He
agreed with the hon. gentlemani that the Governor-General
of India was over worked, and that some change was ne-
cessary in that respect. The hon. gentlemen had referred
to the many ehanges which took place in the offices in India ;
but if the right hon. gentleman would turn his attention
to the offices of this country, he would also see that they
were subject to many changes. The hon. gentleman had
referred to the Governor of Madras, but that gentleman
was a man of great experience, and any recommendation
or suggestions coming from him was certain to meet with
the atention it deserved from the home Government. One
of the minuted written by Sir Charles Trevelyan atMadras,
in
relation to an act passed, not by the present Governor-
General of India, had been severely commented upon by a
Madras paper, and seemed now to furnish the hon. gentle-
man with subject for commentary. It could not be denied
that the question of finance was of great importance, and
that many other important points best came under the cog-
nisance of the Governor of India. With respect to the sug-
gestion of the hon. gentleman that it was desirable to
encourage friendly association between the native'and Eu-
ropean populations, he begged to assure him that the
Government was most desirous to promote such intercourse.
The great question for the consideration of the committee
that night was the finance of India. The hon. gentleman
the member for Birmingham, adverting to the military ex-
penditure in. India, said it much exceeded the revenue of
that country ; but lie assured the hon. gentleman that the
Government would do all in their power so to reduce the
military expenditure as to bring it down to what it was pre-
vious to the mutiny. The hon. gentleman bad also called at-
tention to the expendi tare in the civil service. He certainly
admitted that there were some matters in the civil service
which strongly required amendment, and that there were
many offices there which were overpaid, in proportion to the
work done, and which it was hoped wouid soon be either
materially altered or abolished. There were, however, many
offices in the civil service the duties of which were very
onerous. Looking at the statement of his right hon. friend,
he found there was a deficit of £12,500,000 against
£13,500,000 of ways and means to make up. There was,
he admitted, an actual excess of. £9,500,000 in the military
expenditure over that of the preceding year. ; but he could
assure the committee that the Government at home and the
Government of India would do all in their power to so re-
duce the expenditure as to bring it, in the course of three
yearr, to balance with the amount it was at prior to the
mutiny. He might, in conclusion, state that her Majesty's
Government were most anxious, in accordance with the
spirit and feeling of her lgajesty's Proclamation, to see
that the native population of India should be governed on

just principles, and that they should be placed upon terms
of perfect equality, both as to their civil and religious rights,
with the European population. (Hear.)
Mr. D. SEYMOUR could not but express a wish that
the right hon. baronet, the Secretary of State for India, had
spoken more explicitly on many points to which he had that
evening adverted. The question of the sale of land in In-
dia referred to by Sir C. Trevelyan, was one of great im-
portance, and ought to be fairly considered. Then, as to
the laws of India, there was nothing that more required
reform. They had been submitted to the consideration of
several officers, and made the subject of their experiments,
but there were no results. The recommendations of those
officers were referred to members of the council, but they,
instead of considering them, referred the matter to
subordinate officers. Indeed, there was an opinion that,
when once a thing was referred to Calcutta, it was shelved
for ever. He regretted to say that the Government did
not do anything in a practical manner. He would take
for instance the salaries of the civil servants in India, and
ask, had they been dealt with in a practical manner ?
Most certainly not. The right honourable baronet, when
he was President of the Board of Control, certainly
sent out directions on the subject, and caused Mr. Ricketts
to go through every presidency in India. That gentleman
furnished 24 reports, but nothing whatever had been done
in relation to them. The result was that the principle of
reducing the income of the civil service remained nugatory.
The hostile feeling in the Indian army was well known for
20 years before the mutiny took place, and Lord Dalhousie
had recommended an alteration in the administration of the
army, which, however, was disregarded. He thought that
much was due to the noble lord the Secretary for India
(Lord Stanley), who by his policy had done much to win
the natives of India to this Government. He complained
of the course which the home Government had adopted in
reference to the claims of the native princes, as was-shown
in many cases. He believed the Government would gain
very much if more attention was paid to those claims. He
must say that the proposed mode of raising taxes in India
would be oppressive in that country. He believed that the
tax upon salt would press heavily upon the natives of that
country, especially as regarded its use in curing of fish.
He also contended that the increased tax upon stamps
would be eqUally an objection. He could not understand
how the licensing system would not produce any large
amount of revenue, nor did be think the succession tax
would produce much. He thought there were many modes
of raising taxes which were not touched upon. Nothing
was said of taxing the moneyed classes in India. A tax
of this kind was successful in Russia. He also thought a
poll tax would produce a good amount of revenue, and he
believed that a tax upon land would be a beneficial means
of increasing the revenue of the country. The lands round
Kurrachee, Bombay, and Madras, might be sold at fair
prices, and by realising a very legitimate and considerable
amount of revenue, spare them the necessity of borrowing
in the public market. In conclusion, he would call
attention to the great fault, inexcusable in a commercial
people, of employing the time of our soldiers in the
conveyance of silver from one end of the country
to the other. Banking was greatly on the increase in Indio,
and if Russia could find the means of sending her paper
into every corner of the country, surely it was possible for
us to do so too. Reform, however, was as much needed at
home as abroad, for in Leadenhall-street the same obstruc-
tive influences were still at work, to the great detriment of
our Indian interests.
Mr. VANSITTART was glad that the Secretary for
India was not going to reduce the salaries of the civil
service in India, at any rate in the course of the present
incumbents. He advocated a greater amount of supervision
in the civil service. He thought they ought to abolish the
legislative council at Calcutta, till it could be re-organised
on a better basis, unite the Suddar and Dawlut Courts, and
take various measures to encourage the natives of India, to
invest their moneys in public works for the benefit of India.
In spite of the gloomy prognostications of many members,
owing to the gloomy financial position of the country with
proper management he believed that in the course of a few
years India might be restored to the position she occupied
before the mutiny broke out.
Mr. GREGSON said he hoped the military expenditure
of the country would be reduced, and he was glad that
there was not going to be an Imperial guarantee.
Mr. A. KINNAIRD said, that to alter the land tax with-
out providing a substitute, would be unwise. He thought
the Government did not appreciate the crisis in India at
the present moment. He thought that India had been of
so much service to this country that it was wrong to with-
hold the Imperial guarantee now asked for. If the right
hon. baronet had, as he had said, such confidence in the
elasticity of the Indian revenue, why withhold that Impe-
rial guarantee, which, if something bold and prompt were
not done, they would find themselves compelled to grant in
the end.
Mr. HANKEY satd that either they should abolish the
old company or give an Imperial guarantee for every loan
that was intended to be raised.
Sir C. WOOD said that the sum to be raised by deben-
tures was two and a half millions, and not six millions, as
was supposed.
The resolution was agreed to, and the house resumed.

SUPPLY.
The report on supply was brought up and received.
The Vexatious Indictments Bill was read a third time
and passed.

DUBLIN POLICE BILL.
Mr. VANCE opposed the second reading of the bill, and
it was agreed that the next stage of the bill should be taken
on Wednesday.
The Charitable and Provident Societies Bill was read a
second time, after a few brief words of explanation from
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
The Coinage Bill was read a second time.
The Stamp Duties Bill was read a second time.
The Reserve Volunteer Force of Seamen Bill was read a
second time, the discussion to be taken on Friday on going
into committee.
The Government of India Act Amendment Bill was read
a second time.
The Universities Act Incorporation Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Turnpike Trusts Arrangement Bill was read a second
time, as was the Turnpike Acts Continuance Bill.
The Customs Bill was also read a second time.
The Law Ascertainment Facilities Bill passed through
committee.
The Attorneys and Solicitors Bill was read a second
time.
SETTLED ESTATES (1856) AMENDMENT BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this

bill,
• Sir J. SHELLEY objected that at that hour it was un
derstood that no opposed bill was to be taken.

Mr. WHITESIDE said the object of the bill was simply
to put Sir Thomas Wilson in the same position as all
other British subjects, and to be heard in a court of law.
Sir Thomas Wilson had no intention whatever of building
upon Hampstead-heath, and he had told the member for
Finsbury that day, that if he wished it any proviso he might
desire to prevent that being done would be introduced. But
he protested against the metropolitan members uniting to
prevent a proprietor, against whom the House of Commons
and the House of Lords might have decided, from ever
again having a hearing in a court of justice. The object of
the bill was to prevent Sir Thomas Wilson from building
on the hard land in the vicinity of Hampstead-heath,
though they had given a railway company and a water
company rights to make a railway and a reservoir on that
very land. If they passed a clause of that kind it would be
a disgrace.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the right hon.
gentleman had shown not only great imagination, lmiLgi3eaa l
ingratitude and want of accuracy in the
statement_
just made, because the right hon. gentleman had
different
nrenint
communication with him, and had expressed very
opinions. The bill was intended simprlywthoipehrevheenht
eldir
tThe
property, and on aT.
Wilson from 'setting aside a will unde
Parliamentpewer thoughtn igt
the
was not right that
hfoermehereniocdcahsiaovne
1 1 lf, he was
ctoath c ause se , thoea coLeugiretiaotfujrues.ticNive tiothsertesapsied e the deliberate decision of
tonly the instrument in carrying he intentions he
was
A 0 moved the adjournment of the debate, and
slr. WHITESIDEIFET explained.
Sir r.
it was accordingly adjourned.
COURT OF PROBATE.
This bill (comprising acquisition of site), was read a
second time,
AanDduoLdTerEeditAtoibleocNomomF itted.
FOOD.
On the motion of Mr. SCHOLEFIELD, the order for going
into committee on this bill was discharged.
FIRE-WORKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion that this bill be committed,
Mr. WHITESIDE moved that at that late hour the
committee be discharged.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the bill was a very important one.
It was most alarming to have those manufactories of fire-
works in populous neighbourhoods, and particularly in the
close neighbourhood of churches.
The order, after some remarks by Mr. J. LOCKE (whose
measure it is) and other hon. members, was pmtponed till
to-morrow (this day).
METROPOLITAN POLICE BILL.
The order for further proceeding-with this bill at thislate
period of the session, was,
On the order of Mr, COWPER, discharged.
DARTMOUTH ELECTION.

Mr. PALK moved that a new writ be issued for the re-
turn of a member to represent the borough of Dartmouth.
in the room of Edward Wyndham Harrington Schenley,
whose election had been rendered void.

Sir J. SHELLEY objected to the course taken by his
hon. friend, and begged to remind the house that he had
given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion, that
no writ be issued for the return of a member for any place
petitioned against until the committee had formally declared
the seat vacant. Without going in this question, he would
say that t,he house ought to know what wero the facts of
the case. He believed that in nine cases out of ten hon.
gentlemen were hooked into these cases of bribery by parties
interested in on these elections. He begged there-
fore to move that the writ in this case should not issue until
the house had an opportunity of reading the evidence given
before the committee.

Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the amendment, and in doing
so made an appeal to the noble lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, not to give his sanction to an unconstitutional
course of proceeding which it was probable would be at-
tempted. Any hon, gentleman who expected but disliked
exposure could apply the Government for the Chiltern.
Hundreds in order to avoid what would be a painful pub-
licity, but in such cases he trusted the noble lord would re-
fuse to grant the favour. (Hear, hear.) He would remind
the house that some time ago the country was told that
great corruption had been practised by gentlemen on that
(the Opposition) side of the house. (Hear, hear.) He was
sorry to say that late discoveries had shown that the cor-
ruption was on the other side. (Hear, hear.) The result of
that, however, was apparently that noble lords and right
hon. gentlemen were now sitting upon that (the Govern
ment) side of the house, for pretty nearly the majority
which placed them there had been disfranchised on account
of bribery. (Hear, hear.) Having made that appeal to the
public virtue of the noble lord he would add one remark as
to the conduct of committees. When a member of that
house was petitioned against upon the ground of bribery,
he must say he had no such faith in the simplicity of man-
kind as to suppose that any human being would spend
£2,000, £3,000, or £4,000 in order to seat another person in
that house except with the knowledge, if not by the direc-
tions of the hon. member himself. (Cries of "No," and
" Hear, hear.") Was there anybody of so soft a head, or so
a
tender heart, as to believe that a man would be so wild as
to give £3,000 or £5,000 to benefit another without that
other person knowing anything of it ? (Hear, hear.) The
statements made within the last 10 days were enough to
shock the country, and by a party calling itself Liberal—
(hear, hear)—a great number of whom he recollected in
1830 raising
an outcry against the corruption of the ancient
boroughs. (Hear, hear.) Nothing was ever done in those
ancient boroughs worse than had been done lately. It did
i
behove the house to take nto its serious consideration how
it could put a stop to these thinFs, and he hoped hon. gen-
tlemen who served upon committees would have the cour-
age to be honest, and not add base hypocrisy to the horrible
corruption that now prevailed. (" Oh," and "Hear.") He
said hypocrisy, because he thought no reasonable being
could imagine that a man would spend £6,000 or £B,OOO for
the benefit of another without the sanction or cognisance of
that other. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said he did not think anything had been,

•
said that would justify the house in refusing to issue the
writ for Dartmouth. He would remind the house that after
the St. Alban's case an act of Parliament was passed—he
believed it was the 16th or 17th Victoria—by which a com-
mission could be ordered, in the event of the committee re-
porting that bribery and corruption had been practised to
a large extent in the borough. No such report had been
presented in this case, and there was therefore no reason
for the writ in question being refused. Such was not the
case in the Wakefield and Gloucester cases, and that would
involve a different consideration. If they refused the writ
they would ,be making themselves a court of appeal from
the Dartmouth committee.
Mr. LEFROY wished to state a few of the facts which
came before the committee in question. The defence of the
seat having been abandoned, and the borough not being
affected by the cases of bribery, the committee did not feel
it necessary to make any special report, and he believed the
committee did not wish.to take any active part with refe-
rence to the issuing or withholding of the writ.
Mr. PALK thought it would be an act of unkindness .to
this borough to withhold the writ.
Mr. BOUVERIE thought the speech of the right hon.
baronet (Sir G. Grey) had pointed out to the house the
proper course for it to pursue. He could not help saying
that the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) had
no right to accuse members of election committees, who
were sworn to act justly at the table of the house, of being
guilty of hypocrisy.
Lord FERMOY said, though there might not be legal
proof of extensive bribery at Dartmouth, he had a moral
right to assume that there had been such bribery, as the
hon. member had withdrawn from the inquiry.
Mr. WHITESIDE believed the right hon. gentleman
(Sir G. Gray) had correctly stated the rule that at present
applied. He differed in the opinion that had been ex-
pressed by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Bouverie), and
agreed in what had been said by the hon. and learned gen-

tleman (Mr. Roebuck).
The amendment having been withdrawn, the motion for
issuing the writ was agreed to ; and some formal business
having been disposed of, the house adjourned at twenty•
five minutes past one o'clock.

COUNTRY MARKBTS.