The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-15 00:00:00

INDIAN FINANCE.

Mr. BRIGHT inquired if the right hon. baronet, the
Secretary for India, would inform the house when the
subject of Indian finance would be brought
forward, and when any despatches on the matter would be
laid on the table.
• Sir CHARLES WOOD was understood to say that
a statement on the subject of Indian finance would be
made shortly, but not till subsequent to the financial state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

In reply to Mr. HORSPALL,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
if the army and navy estimates were gone throughto-morrow
evening—and he hoped if necessary the house would sit
a little longer than usual for that puse--he proposed to
make his financial statement on Monday evening. (Hear.)
INDIAN ARMY.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. H. BAILLIE called the attention of the house to
the report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into
the organisation of the Indian army, which elicited some
discussion, in which Sir C. Wood, General Peel, Lord
Stanley, Colonel Sykes, Sir De Lacy Evans, and other hon.
members took part.
After which the subject dropped.
THE SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. GRIFFITH called the attention of the house to the
case of Santos v. Illidge and others, and asked the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he thought the
sth and 6th clauses of the act 6 and 7 Vic. c. 98, authoris-
ing the sale of slaves by British joint-stock companies;
should be repealed.
LAND TRANSPORT CORPS.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked the Secretary of State for
War whether any, and it so what, decision had been come to
by the Treastuyon the subject of carrying out the recommen-
dations of the committee of last session on the claims of the
Land Transport Corps with reference to granting permanent
half-pay to that class of officers who entered the corps from
the militia and civil employ.
Mr. LAING said there would be no object'on on the part
of the Treasury if the Secretary for War did not object.
THE OVER PACKETS CONTRACT.
Mr. RICH called attention to the Dover contract, but
said that as the whole matter would come before the Dover
election committee, as well as the committee on contracts,
he would not press the matter en the house, if he could
obtain from the Government an assurance that no confir-
mation of the contract should be made until the matter was
fully investigated by the committee he had referred to.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY took the opportunity of com-
plaining of the slovenly way in which the navy estimates
had been drawn up. Nos. 8,9, and 10, upwards of three
millions in amount, were composed of gross sums embody-
ing a number of items that were not specified. There was
nothing to show how the money was to be applied. There
was no di- fisition to grudge any amount, but the country
wanted to ow that the money was properly applied.
Sir J. PAKINGT ON, in reference to the question of
Mr. Rich, had no objection either to the postponement of
the estimate which comprised the Dover contract, or to the
matter being fully discussed at that time.
Lord C. PAGET said he meant to move the vote for
packets, and if Mr. Rich objected to any portion of it he
might move to strike out that portion. It was the earnest
desire of the present Board of Admiralty to go closely into
the question of shipbuilding, and to give all the informa-
tion that could be supplied. When the next estimates
were brought in he hoped that greater detail would be em-
ployed.
Sir F. T. BARING said there was a general belief that
the Dover contract required to be looked into, and he hoped
that the Government would not ask for the vote for that con-
tract until the commitee had made their report. Other-
wise the house would have to discuss the matter twice.
Mr. WHITBREAD said the contract had been signed
and was legally binding. He was told it was subject to the
approval of the house, but he found no mention of that in
the contract. As, however, it was the wish of the house
that this contract should be further considered, the amount
would be omitted from the estimate about to lie submitted.
After a few words from Mr. LYGON,
Mr. ROEBUCK warned the house of the danger into
which they were likely to fall. If they canvassed all the
contracts of the Government they would bring into the lobby
of the house all the chicanery and contests which took place
in the American Congress. He was told that there was a
company which would positively be benefitted by this con-
! tract being broken.
Mr. WILSON said that the contract contained the words
"to be paid out of the moneys voted by Parliament ;" but
this was the case with all contracts, and did not necessarily
imply that the contract was subject to the approval of Par-
liament.
Lord J. RUSSELL, replying to the question of Mr.
Griffith, said that the matter was under the consideration
of the law officers of the Crown.
SUPPLY.—NAVAL ESTIMATES.
The house then went into Committee of Supply.
Upon the motion that £368,311 be granted to defray the
half-pay, reserved half-pay, and cost of retirement of offi-
cers in the Navy and Royal Marines,
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY called attention to the state of the
active list of officers. Out of a total of 1,600 officers of all
grades 260 were aged between 60 and 85. In the steamships
belonging to private companies there was a large number
of active and intelligent officers, who, since the passing of
the Mercantile Act, Vera bound to undergo examinations
quite as strict as officers in the Royal Navy ; and if an
examination on gunnery were added to the course, they
would form an efficient reserve, on which the country
could depend in the hour of need, and thereby the large
sum which the house was called on to vote annually for
half-pay might gradually be very materially reduced.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that there was a great defi-
ciency in the lower ranks of the navy—in mates and mid-
shipmen, for instance—while there was a great redundancy
in the number of admirals. He thought this system ought
to receive some check.
Sir C. NAPIER attributed the existing state of things
to the different Lords of the Admiralty. Between 1830 and
1846 there were 509 vacancies in the list, consequent upon
deaths and promotions, and while, according to thebregula-
tions, only one promotion ought to have taken place for
every three vacancies, for these 509 removals there were
369 promotions. It was evident that if the minute of 1830
had been made in 1815, and if every First Lord of the Ad-
miralty had acted upon it strietly, the number of officers of
the navy of all ranks would by this time have been very
considerably reduced. The evils of the system of promo-
tion, from the age of the officers, became very great, and he
suggested to the late Sir R. Peel, who was then in office, a
plan for removing a certain number of officers from the top
•f the list with their own consent. Some years afterwards
Sir R. Peel consented to give a retirement to a certain
number of captains, who were allowed to take the rank of
admirals at 60 years of age, and if that arrangement had
not been interfered with the list would not have been in its
present state. If the list were only allowed to remain un-
disturbed it would be easily ascertained from an actuary
within what period that list would be exhausted. The fact
was that the different Boards of Admiralty had promoted
too many officers, utterly regardless of the regulation that
only one promotion should be made for every three vacan-
cies. An honourable member opposite had recommended
that officers in the merchant service should be allowed to
become officers in the navy; but that system would not
answer, for their manners and education unfitted them
for such a position. They might as well put officers
of the navy into the merchant service. He admitted
that in the event of a war, if there was a deficiency
of officers in her Majesty's navy, it would be absolutely ne-
cessary to call in a certain number of officers from the mer-
chant service, upon the distinct understanding that their
services were only required for a certain time. There was
no doubt that a number of very fine young men might be
obtained as officers from the merchant service; but they
must only be used for the time they were wanted, unless
they distinguished themselves, and in that case no doubt
the Board of Admiralty would be glad to retain them per-
manently in the navy. The present condition of the list of
officers was attributable to the circumstance that the long
war led to numerous promotions ; that successive Boards of
Admiralty had sanctioned unnecessary promotions, and
that when a minute was made with the object of checking
promotions it was entirely disregarded.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I think it will be admitted by
every man who has studied the state of the navy, that the
question which has been touched upon by the speakers who
have preceded me is one of the utmost importance as con-
nected with the efficiency of the naval service, and I cannot
allow this vote to pass without expressing my anxious hope
that the new Board of Admiralty will take into their con-
sideration the present stagnation of promotion in the navy,
and that they will deal boldly and courageously with the
subject. From the experience I have had for the last year
and a half, I think I may say it is absolutely necessary for
the efficiency of the naval service that something should be
done; and I have also seen enough to be satisfied that no-
thing will be done that will effect the important object in
view unless the Minister who attempts to deal with the
subject is resolved to do so in a bold and determined spirit,
and not to be deterred from attaining his object by slight
difficulties. On Monday night the hon. and gallant member
for Southwark animadverted on the plan of retirement,which
to complain, not I think unjustly, of the gallant officer for
was arranged while I was at the head of the Admiralty. I have
making the subject of unfavourable comments in this house
a paper which was never in any sense made public, and,
therefore, of the fairness or unfairness of his remarks,
relative. to which hon. members, never 'having seen the
document, could not possibly judge. Later on the same
evening the hon. member for Sunderland expressed a hope
that I leould take an opportunity of explaining
what the na-
ture of-my plan was. Now, while I think it would be very
inconvenient that I should enter into details connected with
a paper which has not been made public, and which there-
fore T could not hope to make intelligible to hon. members,
nevertheless, I may say that the
age—though not necessary principle of the proposal I
prepared was this, that there should be laid down a certain
would
li-
rde
ume erneta a
ra adt et
to
necessarily always the same age--aPP
cable to all ranks in the naval service, at which officers
be required to retire, receiving as compensation for
such compulsory reti
, of pay regulated with
tihneranlengtk han,odf tanheiramacotunuatl
services to the country. I also proposed that thereshould
be another age—of course some yearn younger thin that
fixed • for the compulsory retirement—at
should have it in. their powervoluntarily which officers
to withdraw
with the same advantages. That was the principle on
which I framed that plan. Although • is perfectly
true, as I have said, that the paper to which I have re-
ferred veas never in any sense published; I have showxi it to

a aster
oonsideflewith the viewviewof.
numbiiltai•er
Se
tamingt heir opinions on the question, and, among
others, to the hon. and gallant admiral. The hon. and gallant
member seemed to express an apprehension that the plan
would bear hardly upon officers of his own rank. I cat only-
say that I should be prepared, either in public or in private,
to contend that there is nothing in that plan of which offi-
cers of the high and distinguished rank of the gallant ad-
miral would have the least reason to complain. I admit
also that in undertaking the difficult task of devising any
scheme of retirement to remedy the evils now pressing on
the navy from the want of such a scheme, any man would
fall in his duty if he did not show the utmosti possible re-
spect for the high claims of such officers as the gallant ad-
miral and many others of his rank, who have risen to their
high position by their own great services, by their gallantry,
and a long and successful career in a noble profession. On
the other hand, I feel with equal force, and I am glad to have
this opportunity of stating it, that any man who ventured
to enter upon such a work would no less fail in his duty if he
limited his regard to officers who have reached the highest
rank in the navy. I say the poor lieutenant is as much
entitled to consideration as the admiral—(cheers)—and I beg
to tell the house that while I was at the Admiralty nothing
was more painful to me than the cases which came crowding
before me of men, who, having served the country well, had
failed in the difficult race of promotion for want of interest.
(Hear.) Yes, lam sorry to say it is too true that many of
these men fail through the want of that mode of getting ad-
vancement which we all know has been necessary. lam not
imputing blame to anybody, because we are all aware of the
difficulties which a Government have to meet—that they are
compelled to make selections from large bodies of men ; and
let them make those selections as honestly as they may,
-there must remain a large residuum unemployed and un-
promoted. Why, at this moment, there are officers who
have held the rank of lieutenant for years and years till they
have become old men, and who are now struggling to main-
tain themselves as offieers and gentlemen on a pittance
wholly inadequate for the purpose. (Cheers.) Any one who
occupies the position which I had the honour to fill must
have his feelings continually wounded by numberless cases
of that description. And I say it in no spirit of disrespect,
that I think it behoves those more fortunate men who have
succeeded in attaining the highest distinction not to stand
upon too much punctilio on their own position. They ought
to show some consideration towards their less favoured
brethren, and to be willing to make some sacrifice to relieve
them from the hardship of their present lot. My plan ar-
rived at this point, that I had consulted my colleagues upon
it, that it had been cordially and thoroughly adopted by the
Cabinet ; and if I had remained at the Admiralty, I should
have done, my utmost to carry it into effect, of course with
such modifications as fairness might dictate. The gallant
admiral said the plan was strongly opposed by many dis-
tinguished officers in the service, and even by the officers of
my own board. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) Now,
I will tell the gallant member this, that so far as I know
the disapprobation of that plan was mainly—l will not say
exclusively—confined to a very small number of officers at
the head of the list of his own rank, who took a view of it
which I deeply regret, .and which I think very mistaken.
It is true the professional members of my board were di-
vided on the subject, but this is equally true, that I did not
limit my inquiries as to the plan either to members of my
own board, or to the few distinguished men who stand at
the head of the navy. I consulted flag officers, captains,
and lieutenants, without knowing their previous bias, and
solely regarding their competence to give a fair and disin-
terested opinion • and the overwhelming majority, including
officers of all ranks, were most hearty and decided in their
approval of the scheme, and expressed hopes that I would
pursue it to a successful issue. (Hear, hear.) And as a
proof that something must be done, I beg to remind the
Secretary to the Admiralty that during the first 12 months
when I was at the head of that board I was not able to pro-
mote more than five lieutenants to be commanders, and
two commanders to he post-captains. Some extraordinary
promotions, indeed, took place in consequence of the tran-
sactions in China, but that does not interfere with the
accuracy of the statement I have made as to the very limited
amount of ordinary promotion which occurred between
April, 1856, and April, 1859. I ask, can such a state of
things be expected to produce contentment in a great profes-
sion like the navy ? Is it likely you can have the service
provided with officers of an age suitable for the due per-
ormance of their duties under a system of such stagnation
as this ? The gallant admiral told us that no evils of the
kind exist in the army, that general officers are not asked
to give way at a certain age, or regarded as impeding the
advancement of their younger brethren. In using that argu-
ment the gallant member surely forgot that the two services
are governed on totally different principles. The general in
the army does not stop promotion ; the admiral in the navy
does. Why, every year there are numbers—l may without
exaggeration sayhundreds—of officers in the army who quit
their profession by selling their commissions. Who leaves
the navy ? Nobody. Year after year you are pouring in
young gentlemen into the navy, although not, as has been
truly said, to a sufficient extent, but while you are doing so
nobody goes out at the top of the list. It really seems as if
our admirals were immortal. (A laugh.) They appear to
be exempted from the common lot of humanity, and, unless
they are carried off by a cannon shot they never die. (A
laugh.) lam glad of that, but with such a state of things
you need not be surprised at stagnation, and therefore I say
it is necessary to adopt some plan of retirement applicable
to the naval service. (Hear.) lam not the first naval Mi-
nister who has felt this embarrassment ; on the contrary,
from the nature of things it is constantly occurring, and in
point of fact various Boards of Admiralty have been com-
pelled to adopt retiring lists. A retiring list relieves the
system for a time, but after a few years .it is again choked,
you again experience a dead lock, and I do not believe
you will ever provide an effectual care until you adopt some
self-acting plan, which shall promote retirements at the top
of the list as you pour in fresh blood at the bottom, and so
enable you to have a due succession of officers capable of
doing good service to the country. (Hear, hear.) It was my
anxious wish, by the adoption of a. simple mode of retire-
ment, with fair compensation for the disadvantages it created,
to afford a permanent remedy for the present state of things.
I left office before I could carry out a plan which, though
open to correction in its details, I believe, in its leading
principles was perfectly fair and sound, and which would
have attained the object in view. I have left that plan to
my successor. It is in the hunds of the Duke of Somerset,
whom I have implored to consider it impartially as a matter
. eeplv affecting the welfare of the British navy, and I shall
be glad to hearfrom the Secretary to the Admiralty that the
' present Board will endeavour by some means or other, to re-
L medy what I believe to be a great and growing evil. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER had hoped that the right hon. baronet
would not again have found fault with him for having men-
tioned his plan of, retirement. That plan was not furnished
to him confidentially, and he appealed to the house to say
whether a document which was handed round to almost
every old admiral resiilent in London, and which formed the
subject of a petition tp her Majesty wild be properly called
confidential. It was triie the petition to which he referred
was not presented to the Queen, but the reason of that was
that the right hon. baronet left office before the requisite
arrangements could be completed. The petition, however,
was signed by himself and several other admirals, and one
of those who attached their names to it took the liberty of
telling the right hon. baronet that an experience of 15
months at the head of the Admiralty did not seem to have
taught him to respect the feelings of naval officers. (A
laugh.) To press old officers to retire from the service was
degrading, and he could never forget that the death of his
own father, a captain in the navy, who had net had an op-
portunity of serving, was caused his being passed over
in promotion. The truth was that the right hon. baronet
did not know, and never would know, what the feelings of
naval officers were—(a laugh)—and fortunate it was that
he was driven from office before he could bring forward his
nefarious system of retirement. (Laughter.) It was no
doubt true that the right hon. baronet obtained the assent
of a number of officers to his plan, but the probability was
that those officers were young men who wanted promotion ;
at all events, he could state with certainty that the plan
was disaloproved by the senior officers. But the right hon.
baronet had not told the house all. In addition to the other
objectiOnable features of his scheme, the right hon. baronet
actually wanted to take into his own hands, with the view
of increasing the patronage at his disposal, the hauling-
down vacancies belonging to flag-officers, as well as those
special vacancies which were given to the Board of Admi-
ralty for the purpose of rewarding officers for gallant ser-
vices. (Hear, hear.) It was quite true that various boards
had made retirements. That was quite right : it brought
forward a sufficient number of young officers, and
at the present moment there were more young admirals in
the service than there were during the war. But the pro-
posal of the right hon. baronet went much further, and he
ecould only say that he hoped the present First Lord would
would find something better to do than hurting the feelings
of old officers, and that the House of Commons would not
vote a single shilling except for the purpose of assisting old
commanders and lieutenants who had not sufficient interest
to make their way in the service, (Hear, hear.)
Sir Y. PAKINGTON said that not a single word of what
had fallen from the hon.. and gallant admiral applied to the
present system of retirement. The gallant admiral com •
plained of the cruelty of compelling old and distinguished
officers to retire. Perhaps the house would be surprised to
hear that his (Sir J. Pakington's) plan did not compel any
flag-officer to retire. (Hear, hear.) It applied to officers
in junior ranks, but did not deprive any flag-officer of any
privilege that he now possessed.
Sir C. NAPIER—I don't know how the rule now stands,
but I know how it stood when I was employed by the Ad-
miralty.
Sir C. WOOD, who was almost inaudible in.-the gallery,
was supposed to speak to the following effect :—lt is very
inconvenient to discuss a plan not before the house, but I
think the right hon. gentleman has very much understated
the effect of the plan of retirement. The consequence of the
plan now in force is to reduce the period of service of post-
captains from 36 years to under 20 years. There are at this
moment, I believe, a greater number of young admirals, if
I may use the expression, than there had previously been
since Lord Howe's time. The number of admirals under GO
years of age is now 30 instead of 9, which was the number
under the previous plan 'of retirement. I confess that I do
not believe that retnementby age would bean improvement
of the present system. .1 think that every one will admit
that Lord Lyons was' one of the most efficient officers we
have had for many years, and yet Lord Lyons would have
been disqualified years ago if retirement at the age of 60had
been compulsory, for Lord Lyons 1 believe was 70 when he
died. [Admiral Walcott.-68.] I do not say that every
man above or below 60 would be able to command a fleet,
but I think it would be a great mistake to debar yourselves
of the 'services of such a man as Lord Lyons because he was
above '6O years of age. (Hear, hear.) I say this without any
reference to the plan of the right hon. gentleman. The
number of superior officers being much less than those of
the inferior officers, it is impossible to hope that by any plan
of retirement promotion can be given to all the inferior offi-
cers. Suppose that 1,200 lieutenants is the number required
and 3.50 captains, and 450' Commanders, it is obviously im-
possible that the whole number of lieutenants can ke pro-
moted to commanders. By increasing the retired list you
will remove officers whohave attained an age which renders
it almbst impossible for them to serve. It is to the interest
of the country that the list of officers in the lower ranks
should be relieved of such as are incapable of serving in
that rank. I think that the present rules of retirement have
answered, to a great extent, the purpose for which they were
instituted. No scheme that could be invented "would be
agreeable to all classes 'of 'persons.
Adthiral WALCOTT said, if the country and the house
would only exercise a little patience these gray-headed men
would' soon disappear from the reach of their bounty.
ostmedceituns
odriegr
iwnhtoichthtehewlaarrgtehaltistlashatedd been
from
p jro7d92ucteodl.Bllst,
The house had not been made acquainted with the circum-
stance
which we had at 'one 'time 1,000 pendants flying.
There were at the same time, no less than 140,000 seamen
in the service. We were at war with almost the whole
world, and it was absolutely necessary to have fleets block-
ading the ports of the 'eVently end' protecting the commerce
of the country. The number of officers was consequently
very large, and that was the'eause as he had always said of
the number of 'officers on 'these lists. If an actuary were
applied to, he would tell them that officers' of the navy did,
not Jive longer than other
aomtef elan.
late ,
ibittrstkhaeaolmicosotunsre,
wtfedahveoftuhorrearthboleef
commanders, or lieutenants, were
iitate of the plitlibcehineagltgreh,
only to exercise a
adaverarairageb;e_feaptains,
and they would • see them thinned' by the
natural effect of time. Since 1815 appointments, prorao-
lcritotredpedatiweiiitche, old men, and they had

tionsrand recommendations formarks of honour at the hand
of the Sovereign had gone by favour. Every First Lord
had-his own friends to provide for, and then he probably

took the advice of the First Naval Lord, who kneir certain
officers, with whom he had served, and naturally recom •
mended them. It was impossible that there could be any
confidence iu the service until the colleagues of the First
Lord were made responsible with him for appointments,

promotions, and rewards. During 40 years Of peace the
proportion of 'captains employed was 80 out of 600 ; and
fqw, therefore, could rise to the rank of admiral without
. .

friends at the 'Admiralty. In peace a captain must have
been six years, and in war four years in command of a
ship before he was entitled to rise to the rank of admiral,
but if he were not employed he could not rise, and if he
had no interest he could not get employment. There
were 99 admirals on the list. They had more young
admirals than they could employ, or did employ. If an
officer could not reach the ear of the First Lord he remained
without employment and was put upon the reserved
list. He was one of those who was displaced when
he had a fair right and title to be employed. He never
could obtain employment. Captains who had been six, nine,
and ten years afloat were able to get ships, while other cap.
tains could not serve the time necessary to keep on the
active list. When the experienced captains died the coun-
try lost their services, and, in addition, the advantage of
the survivors having hared the experience. Until some
consideration was shown for merit the evil must continue.

If it were known that the only road to promotion was by
zeal, energy, and gallant good conduct, there would be a
very different feeling in the service. Officers who had no
influence saw First Lord after First Lord succeed to office,
and just when they expected that the First Lord had pro-
vided for his friends and could give encouragement to merit
a change came, and with the change disappointment. They
had rolled the stone uphill with the greatest difficulty, when
it fell and crushed them, and they had to begin over and
over again. That was his case for 30 years, and hundreds
of others, who had spared no effort to get employment never
could get a command. His heart had been almost broken,
and he had been thrust upon the retired list when he had
energy and ability to have done his country some service.
(Hear, hear.) Men who had not used every effort to get
employment were unworthy the profession and should be
thrust aside, but those who offered for any station were en-
titled to some little consideration. He was glad that the
Admiralty had promised some advantages to chaplains and
surgeons, but something was equally due to masters and
lieutenants. (Hear, hear.) He suggested that rank and
some small pecuniary consideration would remove discon-
tent and afford encouragement to young officers who were
just entering the service. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. BARING said, that in the year 1848 the average
age of those officers whose names stood upon the admirals'
list was 70, and that there were only six of them whose age
was under 60, while there were at the present moment 31
admirals who were below that age. The consequence of
the state of things which had formerly prevailed was that
when he, being then at the head of the Admiralty, had com-
municated with two gallant admirals, with the view of send-
ing them out to take command in the East Indies, the
answer which he had received was that they were too old
to perform the service which was required at their hands,
and he had eventually been obliged to appoint an officer to
the command whose age was 72 years. (Hear.) There
were, at the period to which he referred, about 100 officers
in the captains' list who were incapable of service, and on
that of the lieutenants', which embraced 2,300 names, about
1,000 in a similar position. He had, under these circum-
stances, found it impossible to leave matters as they were,
and had therefore introduced a measure which, in conjunc-
tion with other measures in the same direction by which it
had been followed, had caused the present efficient state
of the navy list. The question of the age of naval officers
was one which had been over and over again taken into
consideration at the Admiralty, but however well any
scheme for dealing with it might look upon paper, to strike
distinguished and historic names, such, for instance, as that
of the hon. and gallant member for Southwark, off the list
was by no means a pleasant task for a First Lord of the
Admiralty to discharge. (Hear, hear.) With regard to
the' complaints which were made by. those officers who oc-
cupied the lower ranks in the service, he could only say
that it was impossible to make every lieutenant an admiral,
and that, in his opinion, the best mode of dealing with them
would be to open a door which would admit of their retire-
ment from the service with honour and satisfaction to them-
selves. (Hear, hear.) So far as the question of promotion
was concerned, he thought that, instead of promotion hav-
ing been slow, there had been a considerable flow of it for
the last few years. -(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said, it had been recommended
that the officers of the superior class of merchants' ships
should be made available for the navy, Mit he should remind
the committee that it would not be easy to secure the ser-
vices of such men. For his own part, he should not, when
he had been in the East India Company's service, have
thought of entering the navy, inasmuch as the former
service was much preferable on the score of pay,,
and in consequence of the rapidity with which promotion
might be obtained. Those who served in the superior
classes of merchant vessels had the prospect before them of
becoming partners in some mercantile house, or of settling
down comfortably in some other capacity, and it was not
therefore probable that many would be lured into the navy
from that service. As to the manner in which the officers
in the lower ranks of the navy might be provided for, he
could only say that in his opinion the best mode of dealing
with them would be either to raise them to the rank of
commanders or buy them out, as had been done in the East
India Company's service, in which a man on leaving the
service received a certain sum of money, according to the
rank which he filled, and a small premium. If a similar
practice were adopted in the navy the lieutenants' list
would soon be cleared. He might add that when a man had
served as a midshipman for eight or nine years, and after-;
wards a lieutenant for 13 or 14 years, making in all a period
of from 21 to 23 years' service, he generallfbecame, owing
to the wear and tear of constitution to which he was sub-
jected, practically unfitted for duty as a quarter-deck officer.
What, then, under these circumstances. was to be done
with him ? He could not be made an admiral; but then he
might have conferred upon him the privilege of writing
Captain So and So on his door, together with a small addi-
' tion to his pay if he remained in the service, and by that
means the list might be cleared. There was at the present
moment in the navy a large number of officers who were
discontented, because they saw, as it were, no daylight
before them, and because their youth had passed away,
leaving them to spend the rest of their days in the endea-
vour to live on a pittance which was a disgrace to the
country. (Hear, hear.) He might also observe that the
navy, instead of, being a. cheap was an expansive profes-
sion, and that as a consequence it was' idle to hope that
many officers from the superior classes of the merchant ser-
vice would be induced to enter it. As to the admirals' list,
he did not think it much mattered how many names stood
as
there was a power of selection. (Hear.)
monr. it,
said an attempt had been made to fasten on
uponsGloonNg
the late Government the authorship of a scheme the ten-
dency of which was to do violence to the feelings of many
gallant officers in the naval service. They had no such
intention, but believed that the system was one which
would
give to-every officer his fair share of promotion with-
out hurting the feelings of any, while it would increase his
pride in his profession.
Admiral DUNCOMBE said it was currently stated that
the officers who had been consulted in this matter by the
late First Lord had one and all disapproved of his plan.
Admiral WALCOTT declared that the scheme had given
infinite pain to many old and gallant officers, who were the
pride and ornament of the navy, and whom every young
officer might look up to as an example. The hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Lygon) and the late First Lord had no know-
ledge of the profession, or they would not have adopted
such a system. As regarded the lieutenants, whose posi-
tion was a perfect reproach to the country, the Admiralty
say ls. a-day, and probably they would be
might give them the rank of commander, with some little
additional pay,
satisfied. Naval officers should be encouraged to improve
themselves in the various branches of their profession, and
they should be made to feel that this was the only road to
employment and promotion. In the case of the gunnery
officers, however, no such encouragement was held out, and
he thought their case was really deserving of considera-
tion.
Sir J. PAKINGTON, referting to the statement that all
the officers whom he had consulted had disapproved of his
plan, stated that he had asked the opinion of a great num-
ber of officers without the slightest knowledge of their pre-
vious bias, and an overwhelming majority had given their
cordial assent to the proposal.
Admiral DUNCOMBE said he had referred to the old
flag officers as objecting to it.
Lord C. PAGET had understood the right hon gentle-
tleman (Sir J. Pakington) to say, on the subject of the
present rate of promotion, that he had only during one
year the opportunity of promoting two commanders to be
captains, and five lieutenants to be commanders. During
the year 1858, when the right hon. gentleman was in office,
there were nine admirals made from captains, 22 captains
made from commanders, 62 commanders made from lieu-
tenants, and 51 lieutenants made from mates. He (Lord
C. Paget) did not say that even that was sufficient promo-
tion, but it made up a very different figure from that which
the right hon. gentleman put before the committee.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had spoken of promotion
on the active list.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also votes for
£243,957 for military pensions and allowances • £83,416 for
civil pensions and allowances ; £175,000 for ;hips for con-
veyance of troops on account of the army; and £706,337
for Post-office department (packet service).
On the vote of £lOO,OOO for the payment of gratuities to
seamen now serving in her Majesty's ships, who have at
least five years to serve, or who engage to serve for five
years if so required,
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY said he wished to direct the at-
tention of the committee to the scale of payment of seamen
in the navy. He would be the last to oppose unnecessarily
an increase of that pay, for he had been a sailor himself;
but he asked if that increased pay was necessary, and, if so,
would it effect the object ii#view ? A bounty was increased
pay in another form. The right hon. gentleman the late
First Lord, in a time of peace, but taking alarm at rumours
which had not the slightest foundation, thought it was
necessary to hurry on the work of manning the navy. It
was extraordinary that, while the pay of the seaman and
his position in the navy were better than in the merchant
service—while his work was less severe, and that he was
not only provided for in sickness, but in old age, when we
wanted men to enter the navy they could not be got. There
must be something wrong to account for such a state of
things. (Hear, hear.) Excessive drill was alleged as one
reason, and flogging as another. What a degrading position
it was to strip a man and flog him before his shipmates, and
that not after any trial, but from the mere impulse of the
moment. (Hear.) He (Mr. Lindsay) did not advocate the
doing away with corporal punishment ; it might be neces-
sary; but let a roan, before being punished, be tried by a
court-martial composed of naval officers, and then if he was
held to have deserved punishment, let it be inflicted under
the authority of that tribunal. The bounty of £lO, while
it increased the pay of the Royal navy, ended with increas-
ing the pay of the merchant service from £2los. to £3 10s.
per month. And yet, after saddling an important and de-
pressed interest with a heavy additional burden, the bounty
did not effect the object that the Government had in view.
The shipping interest of this country were running a great
ocean race with all the countries in the world, and anything
that raised the rate of wages paid in British ships made the
shipowner less able to run the race prescribed for him by
the law. The £lO bounty created dissatisfaction in the
British navy. The seamen asked why they should not get
£lO as well et.- the men of the merchant service. Well, the
Government now proposed to vote to able seamen.
Would that satisfy them ? They would say that if it wero
just to give them £5 it was equally just to give them £lO.
He had do doubt it would be necessary to vote another
£lOO,OOO, and still the Government would not be able to
gain their object. He certainly thought the offer of a £lO
bounty a mistake on the part of the late Government.
Lord C. PAGET said he was now enabled to give an ex-
planation of this vote, which he was unable to do on Fri-
day. At that time the order in Council was not issued, and
he preferred to wait until he was in a position to propose
this estimate. He wished to repeat the opinion he had be-
fore expressed, that nothing but the most urgent necessity
could justify a recourse to bounties, especially to bounties
of so large an amount, cHear.) A system of bounties

might bo compared to- t hose opium draughts which were
common inEastern count' ins: each dose must be stronger than
the former. in like man ner, if our seamen were taught to
expect that at the least cl cud in the west, or"approach to a
political difficulty, a boun, ty would be offered, the Admiralty
would never be able to get a seaman without a bounty.
(Hear.) The wisdom of giving a bounty ought therefore to
be very carefully considere d by any Government before they
proposed it, and the bounty ought never, in his opinion, to
be adopted without the sa action of the House of Commons.
The bounty offered by the late Government had certainly
rapidly increased our force •of seamen. But another ques-
tion then arose. The Goven -anent had not only to consider
the position of those who ex itered the navy from the mer-
chant service, but also the position of those seamen who had
been serving their country faithfully, who had learnt in the
Royal Navy the whole of the duties of a seamen, and who
had come to be efficient men- or-war's-men. Now, he wished
to bring this matter home to his right hon. friend (Sir J.
Pakington) as a personal question. He would suppose that
his right hon. friend and him self were captains of line-of
battle ships, and that instead-. of a scarcity of seamen there
was a scarcity of captains of li re-of-battle ships. That had
happened before, not in the ~%nglish, but in the French
service, for in France during tl 4e revolution the captains of
merchantmen were taken out th!their ships and put in com-
mand of men-of-war. They we we the uniform and enjoyed
all the privileges of captains of j nen-of-war. Now, suppose
that some respectable merchant captain, who was a very
ghod seaman, but utterly unaq aainted with the duties of
captain of a man-of-war, were pea upon an equality with
his right hon. friend and himself. That would be unsatis•
factory; but what would his ri; t hon. friend and himself
say if this captain of a merchant man had given to him a
large sum of money in hand b eyond what they hedge-
ceived, if he obtained his epaulettes, sword, cocked hat, and
all the paraphernalia of rank, all. the furniture of his cabin?
That was precisely the case of the seamen of the Royal
Navy at the present moment. The bounty of £lO was
nearly half a year's pay. He certainly thought that the
seamen in the Royal Navy had no legal claim to any par-
ticipation in. the bounty. B-at their position was such
that the Government had to consider how they
ought to be treated. He must say for these men that,
so far as he was aware, they h ad never uttered a word of
complaint. (Hear, hear.) But was that a reason for not
considering their claims ? If the Government thought they
had a just demand for some consideration justice ought to
be done at once and spontaneously, and without waiting for
complaints. (Hear.) He thought it was best that the sea-
men already in the service should have no cause of com-
plaint. Although one half of the bounty was to be given to
men already in the fleet, it was -upon certain conditions
that a man who had less than five years to serve should
enter for an extension of that period to five years, and one
month after the receipt of the order in Council on board
each ship should be allowed to the seamen to elect whether
they would accept the gratuity or not upon those terms.
Supposing that those conditions were accepted by a majo-
rity of the men, we should, as it were, have our fleet man-
ned for five years to come. Under these circumstances he
submitted that the Government was justified, upon grounds
of public policy and fair consideration towards the men, in
asking the committee to vote this sum of money. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON was sorry to say that what had
fallen from the noble lord had not affected in the least de-
gree the opinion he had expressed upon a former evening.
He had heard nothing which he could call a reason for the
extraordinary course proposed, which was a deviation from
all precedent in the past, and establishing an embarrassing
and inconvenient example for the future. He could only
hope that by the immediate adoption of a better system of
reserves we might escape being placed in the critical posi-
tion in which the late Government were placed when they
were compelled to resort to the system of a bounty. (Hear.)
The hon. member for Sunderland and the noble lord had
both touched upon the general policy of a bounty, but that
question was not now before the committee, and, indeed, it
was settled last week, when the house voted the sum
necessary for that bounty. All he would say as to the
general policy of the bounty was that a great national
object was at stake, and that object was accomplished
by it. (Hear.) The question before the committee
was a different one—whether, because Parliament had voted
£31,000 to get seamen, it was right to spend £lOO,OOO more
in making a voluntary gift to men who were already in the
navy. He thought nothing could justify such wanton ex-
penditure but the most urgent necessity. If there had been
any great exhibition of dissatisfaction in the fleet, that
might have been an excuse for such a proposal, but nothing
of the kind existed upon the noble lord's own admission.
The whole 'case of the Governmentturnedonthe possibility
that there might be dissatisfaction amongst those men. He
had said the other evening that if there were discontent
upon that ground, it was a case in which the Government
were bound for high reasons of high policy to take a bold
attitude and declare the demand unreasonable. But, to
the honour of the sailers it must be said, they manifestly
saw the unreasonableness of the demand. The committee
must remember what had been done for those men recently.
In the supplementary estimates they were now considering,
in the first vote were three items to which he called their
attention. The first was to meet the increase of extra pay
allowed to seamen gunners, £13,000 ; the next was to pro-
vide for good conduct pay to petty officers for badges
awarded to them after promotion to that rank, £7,657 ; and
the third was for gratuitous issues of bedding and clothing
to seamen and boys, £38,000. Those werebonuses just given
for the first time, and it was unreasonable that a bounty
which was only grantedupon an emergencyto induce sailors
to enter the Royal navy who would otherwise have re-
mained in the merchant service should be extended to all
the men who were already in the service. Considering the
increased pay and advantages enjoyed by men engaged for
continuous service, there never was a moment when there
was less excuse for dissatisfaction. Nothing had fallen
from the noble lord which would not have been applicable to
the three former occasions upon which bounties had been
granted, and which were not paid to men already serving.
At some future time, notwithstanding all improvements, a
day might come when the Government of this country
would be embarrassed by this unreasonable proposal
to throw away £lOO,OOO just now, when, as the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer would probably soon tell the house,
the finances were not in a condition to justify any wanton
or wasteful expenditure of the kind. He (Sir 3. Peking-
ton) believed that there was no amount of money which the
house would not vote and their constituents sanction if that
money was to be judiciously and properly expended to
secure our national defences. (Hear.) But, on the other
hand, it ought to condemn and would condemn any gratui-
tous, unnecessary expenditure of the kind now proposed,
which was not justified by past precedent nor existing facts,
and which must prove most embarrassing and inconvenient
for future Administrations. However, approval of the pro-
posal was one thing, and opposing it when proposed was
another. (Hear.) Now there might be dissatisfaction, but
two months ago there was none. The late Government
attained their objeet, got the men they wanted, and there
was not a whisper of discontent heard. The noble lord had
talked about the poliCy of treating the British sailor with
generosity ; and so he should be, but the fact was that never
was the sailor treated with so much generosity and consi-
deration as at the present time. (Hear.) Now, for some mo-
tive which had not yet been explained hefound the Govern-
ment at a moment of financial difficulty. embarking in this
most unnecessary expenditure. (Hear.) Having protested
against it on these grounds of public policy, he must leave
the Government to take the course they thought proper, for
they had embarrassed the question and placed it on a totally
different footing from that on which it stood before. (Hear.)
Mr. WHITBREAD asked the house to consider, as the
right hon. baronet said the present Government had adopted
an inconvenient precedent, whether it was not the late
Government who adopted an inconvenient precedent in
giving a bounty to seamen on enlisting. (Hear.) The right
hon. baronet referred to the success of the bounty in ob-
taining a certain number of men,.and said that a great na-
tional object was to be gained by it. So likewise it might
be said of the recent act of the present Government, that a
great national object was to be gained by it; and he thought
that object would be accomplished in the prevention of any
discontent arising among the seamen, as well as in secur-
ing the services of the flower of the fleet for many years to
come. (Hear.) Ho believed, notwithstanding what had
fallen from an hon. member, that this gratuity would sa-
tisfy the seamen, for they knew that they had no legal
claim to it, and they would be pleased and gratified by hav-
ing it offered to them on a principle of justice. (Hear.) It
was maintained by the right hon. baronet that, as no dis-
content had been heard of hitherto, none was ever likely to
arise, oven if this gratuity had not been offered; but dis-
content did not arise in a moment. The men whom this
question affected lived not like other people in the midst of
society composed of all sorts of _professions but entirely in
the company of persons like themselves. 'All their inte-
rests and feelings ran in one way ; and was it not certain,
when the propriety of the late Government's act was
i,e
ques-
tioned
in such an assembly as that house that it would
questioned by them ? It was impossible to conceive,ie
unless the present propositions were acceded to, that t
sea-
men would not think that, having madeof
it, and was a bargain with the
country, the country had got the best .
deter-
mined to keep it. (Hear, hear.) He thought it might
safely be maintained that by the step now taken tne Go-
vernment had not only secured to this country the services
of the most efficient body of men for the fleet.for flve years
to come, but he had also impyes_sed omn the minds of those
men—and this was a result of far ore value than the
money at present asked for—the conviction that they were
dealing with a just and onerous coun ry. (Hearhear.)
Sir NAPIER approvedg_ of the bounty which had been
given; inasmuch as ithact obtained for the fleet a consideern-
3bolneenumber of men and what could the country have
ithout them ? 'The noble lord said that ameliora-
tions had taken place in the service. He knew that that
was the case, but he did not thank the Admiralty for it,
because. had it not been for the motions brought forward
by himself, none of these ameliorations would have taken
place. Corporal punishment had been alluded to, but he
did not.think that the men generally_ were averse to that,
as they knew that the discipline of the navy could not
be carried on without it. He should like, however, to see
the men brought to a court-martial before punishment was
inflicted. Such a course would give great satisfaction to
the seamen, and would not destroy the discipline of the
navy one iota. He gave the First Lord of the Admiralty
the greatest credit for offering the bounty, and he did not
see that the present Government or any one else had a
right to find fault with that measure, since it had proved
successful.
ful He believed the men would feel grateful for
this gratuity. They knew they were not legally entitled
to it, and they would receive it all the more grate fully on
that account. The late First Lord of the Admiralty-said
he had heard of no discontent among the men ; but he (Sir
C. Napier) was often atiPortsmouth, and heard loud ex-
pressions of discontent. When an experienced sailor got
a gratuity of £5, and a man who had not experience equal
to him got the bounty of £lO, was
_there not likely to be
discontent ? (Hear.) Would the House like to see the
fleet lying at Spithead in the present state of Europe with-
out hands to man it ? (Hear, hear.) The war
was said to
be finished, but was it really finished ? (Hear, hear.) In
the present position of affairs no effort should be spared to
place the country a state of safety. (Hear, hear.) There
was not a man in another place who did not hear with
pleasure the speech of Lord Lyndhurst the ether evening.
He should like to see the same spirit that e•
hedisplayed
hibited in that house. Let gentlemen forget for a time that
they had constituents—(a laugh)—and let them boldly ap-
prove all that could be done for the defence of the country,
so that they might be able to point to the British fleet, and
say " There is our fleet, ready to do all it ever did in former
days." (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM—I am ye y unwilling to prolong this
discussion, as it is desirable that we should get through the
navy estimates as soon as possibls ; but like the hon. and
gallant admiral who has just sat down, I have for a long
period taken a deep interest in the question of manning
the navy, and am therefore desirous of saying a very few
words. I will not discuss questions that are not before the
committees—questions of peace or war, and of the state of
Europe, the subject of corporal punishment, and other topics
that have been introduced. The questionda gratuity con-
sequent on ;the bounty that has been granted is the matter
now in hand, and to that I shall address a few observations.
' On a former occasion E expressed at some length my decided

opinion against bounty in time of peace. (Heir.) I then , •
stated my object ions to it in detail, and to those objections •
I still adhere. I think they are conclusive against the pre-
cedent set for the first time by the late Board of Admiralty
of offering a bounty in time of peace. I think that that
ought to be the last resource of a Government in the last ex-
tremity of war, or when war is immediately pending (hear),
and I fear that to have had resort to this last resource now
will be found to have established a precedent that will add
to our difficulties in manning the navy in future in time of
peace. (Hear, hear.) But it is needless to argue that ques-
tion at any length on this occasion, because the bounty has
received the sanction of Parliament, and I assume, there-
fore, that such a bounty was necessary. But if that be the
case, I can have no doubt whatever with respect to the vote
now before the house. (Hear.) I think this gratuity is the
inevitable consequence of the bounty which we have granted.
(Hear, hear.) The late First Lord of the Admiralty says
there has been no discontent on the part of the men now
serving in the Royal navy. There are two important occa-
sions on which a bounty has been offered in this country.
One of these was in 1793, at the commencement of the re-
volutionary war. We had then only about 14,000 seamen,
and just one-half of the amount now offered in time of peace
was offered as bounty by the Government. The effect was
that in six months the number of men rose from 14,000 to
60,000. The other occasion was in 1803, at the commence-
ment of the second French war. A bounty was then offered
exactly half the amount of that now offered in time of peace.
At that time there were about 20,000 men serving
in the navy, and the effect of the bounty in six months
was to raise the number again to 60,000. (Hear,
hear.) Now what is the case on this occasion ? If I mis-
take not, there are 30,000 men now serving; but besides that
a new system has been adopted—viz., that of continuous
service. (Hear.) I believe that is a system which ought to
be cherished as the foundation of a continual supply, and
as one likely to ensure the service of disciplined men. It is
a system which, either in peace or war, promises to be of
the greatest benefit to the service. (Hear, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman says there is no discontent ; but let my
right hon. friend reflect on what is the inevitable effect of
this bounty. Supposing a ship arrives in port from a
foreign station to be paid off. There are five continuous
service men on board and five non-continuous service men.
The five continuous service men go to the flagship in order
to be employed in some other ship. The non-continuous
service men can the next day take the bounty of £lO and.
' enter into service in another ship, but the continuous ser-
vice men, though of equal merit in every respect, are bound
• to serve lye years longer without any bounty whatever.
(Hear.) But the advantage to the non-continuous service
; man does not end there—he gets a suit of clothes complete,
I worth £6, while the continuous service man gets nothing.

Sir J. i'AKINGTON—The continuous service man has
more than an equivalent for the loss of bounty.
Sir J. GRAHAM—He will at the end of ten years have
received an equivalent, but it will be doled out to him in
small driblets, at each monthly pay ; while the non-con-
tinuance man gets £lO in hand and £6 worth in clothes.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—The non-continuance man wi
receive £4O.

Sir J. GRAHAM—At the end of ten years he will have
received £4O I admit ; but still, when one man receives £lO
in hand and clothes worth £6, and another gets £4O in
small sums at the expiration of ten years, I appeal to the
house whether there is not likely to be discontent ? (Hear,
hear.) Then the right hon. gentleman says no demand has
been made for this gratuity. But can any doctrine be more
dangerous than that ? (Hear, hear.) What was the cause
of the mutiny at the Nore ? The men made demands, but
no attention was paid them till those demands assumed a
most dangerous and formidable shape. Then concessions
were made in a manner most dangerous and that produced
no salutary effect. (Hear, hear.) It is said that this is
great generosity on the part of the State. Let there be such
generosity. I think the wisest possible course at the pre-
sent moment is to treat our sailors with kindness, gene •
rosity, and consideration. (Cheers.)hi The hon. and gallant
admiral (Sir C. Napier) takes to mself exclusively the
merit of everything that has been done in favour of the
sailor for the last 30 years—(a laugh)—but, setting aside
that claim, it has been the object of Governments for the
last 30 years to improve the condition of our sailors, and
the concessions of the late Government, founded as they
were upon justice, seem to me to have been founded upon
sound policy. I think the question is not one of generosity,
of discontent, or contentment, but of justice. The hen.
and gallant admiral referred to a measure which I intro-
duced in 1832, when I had the advantage of the advice of
the late Sir Thomas Hardy, who was better acquainted with
the feelings, the habits, and the prejudices of sailors, and the
motives by which they are actuated, than any officer I have
ever known. With the view of averting the necessity of im-
pressment I introduced a measure giving her Majesty, at
the commencement of a war, or when war was imminent,
or when invasion was expected, the power of issuing a pro-
clamation calling for the services of seafaring men within a
short period-6 or 12 days—and of offering to all men who
volunteered within that limited time double bounty. By the
advice of Sir T. Hardy I included in that bill a provision
which, after debate, received the sanction of this house, that
a bounty being given to new comers, an equal bounty should
be given to all men then serving in the fleet. The hon. and
gallant member for Southwark, in a pamphlet published in
1840, referred to the circumstances which had occurred in
the Mediterranean, and pointed out what appeared to him
the disadvantages of the enactment. I thought, upon ma-
ture consideration, that the objections were well founded,
and in 1853 I introduced a measure materially altering the
act of 1832, and enabling the Queen to issue a proclamation
not to all seafaring men, but to classes between certain ages,
and leaving the question of the gratuity to the advisers of
the Crown. So the law now stands, but lam bound to say
that upon every principle of equity, and upon every consi-
deration of policy, I am convinced in the first place that no
proclamation for compulsory service can be issued without
the concomitant offer of a bounty, though I think the offer
of a bounty ought to be reserved for that great emergency ;
and secondly, that whenever a bounty is offered to new re-
cruits a gratuity must be given, not perhaps of an equal
amount, but of a considerable amount, to all men serving in
the fleet. I think you cannot avoid the risk of serious dis-
content without taking that step, and in my opinion it is de-
manded by strict equity. Now it is so, that it is impossible
to man the fleet quickly without a bounty. On this occasion
a bounty has been offeredin a time of peace. It was my duty
to man a fleet in time of war without a bounty, and I suc-
ceeded in doing it—not I, but an officer of the highest merit
who was associated with me- Sir M. Berkeley—who was
entirely opposed to a bounty, and who, in the extremity of
war and amid all the difficulties of manning the ffeet at
that time, steadily resisted the offer of a bounty. Now, the
gallant officer says that the fleet was manned by tinkers,
tailors, and butcher boys. (Hear, hear' from Sir Charles
Napier.) Well, sir, there may have been tinkers, and there
may have been tailors, in every ship on the station, but
there were captains in that fleet who, satisfied with their
crews, were ready to lead their men into any action and
into any danger in which the gallant admiral was prepared
to require their services. (Cheers and a laugh.) I can ap-
peal, to Sir Henry Koppel, who commanded the St. Jean
d'Acre—to Admiral Elliot, who commanded a screw line-
of-battle ship, and to the present Secretary to the Admiralty
(Lord C. Paget), who commanded the Princess Royal, and
I would ask them whether these " tinkers and tailors" were
not men in whom they placed such confidence that they were
ready to encounter any fleet that might have engaged them .
So much, then, for the experience of manning the fleet
without a bounty in time of war. I say again, that in time
of peace I consider the bounty to have been an inexpedient
measure. I hold the gratuity to be an inevitable concomi-
tant to the offer of the bounty ; and if the result should be
to render future Governments more cautious in offering a
bounty in time of peace, with reference to the inevitable ex-
penditure occasioned in the shape of a gratuity, without
which gratuity they would run the risk of creating discon-
tent in the fleet, I for one shall be extremely glad that that
salutary effect has been produced. The bounty having been
given, I cannot object to the necessity and prudence of vot-
ing the sum now demanded.
Sir C. NAPIER--The right hon. baronet says I took
credit for all that has been done for the sailor during the
last 30 years. I did no such thing. (Laughter.) I say so
distinctly. (A laugh.) It is untrue. (Cries of " Order.")
What I took credit for was obtaining the appointment of
the committee which was the means of doing much that
has lately been done for the good of the service. The right
hon. baronet says he manned the fleet. He man the fleet I
Prettily the fleet was manned. (Laughter.) There never
was a fleet sent to sea in such a disgraceful state as
the Baltic fleet. He refers to Sir H. Keppel and to
Admiral Elliot. Why does he not refer to other
officers ? He knows how the ships were manned as
well as I do, and every officer in that fleet knows that it was
shamefully and disgracefully
manned. The fleet was a
ghihts dis-
graceown to the British I will tell
hon.
baronet further that if he will allow me
.toprtohdeiucre
letters, and Sir Maurice Berkeley'sprivate
referring to the way in which that _ letters to me,
house will be astonished. I fleet was manned, the
am not sure that I am doing
those
my duty in not producing letters • and I ask the right
hon. baronet now to let me
them on come down to the house with
another day, and they willshow how the fleet was
manned.
, Sir J. GRAHAM—The gallant admiral has already
taken that liberty
(Laughter.)
by producing my private letters.
_ Sir C. NAPIER--Not all of them. Will the right hon.
baronet allow me to produce the rest of the letters ?
Mr.WILLIAMS explained that though the noble lord the
Secretary of the Admiralty commanded the P • Princess
Royal in the Baltic h
e was not captain of that ship when the
abominable flogging of which he had complained took place.
The vote, which was the last in the navy •
estimates, was
then agreed to.
THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
S. HERBERT then rose to bring forward the sup-
plenWntary estimates for the army. It was not necessary to
go into the whole question of the army estimates, as only
this portion remained to lie brought under the consideration'
of the house. It had been correctly stated by the right hon.
and gallant gentleman opposite (General Peel) that the
army at home amounted to 110,000 men. Of this number the
embodied militia ranked at 23,000. He agreed with an hon.
member opposite, that in times of peace the embodied militia
ought not to form a portion of our home army, but this
branch of the service was very properly called out to meet the
circumstance of th e non-return of Indian regiments who were
detained in that country owing to the mutiny in the local In-
dian army. Still, when these regiments did return to Europe,
and another battalion from Canada, they would then have
a fair regular army at home; but until the return of these
regiments, it would not be desirable to disembody the
militia. The right hon. gentleman then referred to the
artillery, which was in a most efficient state, and was to be
attributed to the zeal and effective administration of the
right hon. and gallant member opposite (General Peel.)
(Hear, hear.) He would now refer to the camp at Alder-
shot. Previous to the establishment of that camp the
British army was badly off in respect to its commissariat, to
military trains, and also as regarded the medical staff. The
conseqaence of the establishment of the camp at Aldershot
was that a great improvement had taken place in all these
particulars. From a communication which he had received
in respect to the camp, he found that the engineers were
engaged in making fascines. The artillery were actively
employed in their military duties. Slaughter-houses were
established, and in fact, all the business of the camp, as in
times of war, was carried out with promptitude and effi-
ciency. He had also to observe that crime had greatly di-
minished in the camp within the last three months. De-
sertion had also diminished, and he had to add that the
health of the army in the camp was very good. The next
vote would have relation to wages, but under this head
would be included an amount for shot and shells, and other
materials for our ships and fortifications at Malta and Gib-
raltar, and other places. Perhaps the house would like to
know the position we were in with respect to the manufac-
ture of our improved guns. He had to state that at the end
of the year 100 guns would be ready, and 200 additional
would be completed by the end of the financial year, and
after that time the delivery of these guns would be in
the same ratio every year. No. 9 vote would have relation
to the expense of clothing the militia. The vote No. 11,
which related to warlike stores, included many heavy
items, amongst which would be £225,000 for miscel-
laneous stores. Then came a larger and important vete,
namely, that relating to fortifications. The right
honourable gentleman then referred- to the forts at Devon-
port, Alderney, Portsmouth, and Portland, and said it
was desirable that all the forts at these several places
should be completed as rapidly as possible. At Portland
they had the finest harbour in the world, but which was

wholly undefended. If an enemy once mounted the heights
there he could be dislodged with difficulty. It was pro-
posed to erect a citadel at Pottlancl, and with the materials
excavated an admirable breakwater could be formed in the
harbour. With respect to Portsmouth he had to observe,
that there were no defensive arrangements for the entrance
to the harbour at Spithead. Experiments, however, were
now being made to see how far defences could be satisfac-
torily erected in the neighbourhood of Spithead. The next
item had relation to civil buildings, and after referring to an
item of £12,000 for the erection of a substantial magazine
for keeping powder at Woolwich, the right hon. gentleman
referred to the vote for the medical schools at Chatham,
and in doing so said an improved system of medical exami-
nation had been suggested, similar to that in the Indian
service. In vote 14 there was an item of £14,000 for a new
rifle range at Chatham, the Admiralty having taken away
the one they had had hitherto. He had now gone througn
those estimates, and had only to say that the items of which
they consisted represedted expenditure which had become
necessary before he came into office. The right hon. gentle-
man concluded by moving a vote of £410,000 for the em-
bodied militia of England and Ireland.
Gen. PEEL said that so far from his having anything
to complain of in the manner in which he had brought for
ward these estimates, he had heard his statement with
great satisfaction,

- Col. GILPIN bore testimony to the great ability of the
commandant at Aldershot, and the rapidity with which the
militia regiments had been converted into efficient soldiers.
He had no hesitation in saying that a more perfect corp.!
d'arinde was not to be found in Europe than at Aldershot.
He had to complain that the officers received too small an
allowance for the keep of their horses.
General PEEL said as to the allowance of keep for
horses, the officers who had stables for them still received
2s. But it had been representen that the allowance for
forage was increased to officers who had no stables,- 25 per
cent., so that they received 2s. 4d. instead of ls. 6d. for a
single horse.
Colonel GILPIN said he had taken a fair average, and
that was ls. 9d.

Captain L. VERNON rose amid cries of " Divider
divide," to ask a question. They were about to vote twelve
millions of money for the army, and out of that large sail
only three went for the fighting men, so that nearly one
twenty-seventh of the sum so voted went to support the
staff, which was enormously expensfve. He hoped the
right hon. gentleman would take that into consideration,
and see if it be possible to reduce the expenses of the stall.
(Hear, hear.)
£180,375 to defray the expenses of wages for artificers ;
£300,000 for clothing, and other necessaries ; and
£93,106 for provisions, forage, fuel, and light were then
agreed to, and the house resumed.

- CRIMINAL JUSTICE (ASSISTANT-JUDGE)
MIDDLESEX BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on this
bill,
Mr. CRAUFURD moved that the house resolve itself
into a committee on the bill that day three months. A.„
The motion was not seconded, and the house went law
committee.

On clause 1, which provides that the additional /300 $
year be paid out of the county rates, '
The Hon. Mr. BYNG moved its rejection. The rate
were already quite heavy enough, and if the remuneration
were paid it shoyld be contributed by the ConsolidOs'
Fund.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that Mr. Bodkin had accept
the office on a promise made by the late Government' that
_gif
he gave up his private practice lie should be paid a salary
£1,500 per annum.
Mr. CRAUFURD said that was the reason he opposed
the bill. The contract had been made without the sane.
tion of the house..
The house then divided—
For the clause 167 •

Against it .....
Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses having been agreed to, the how
resumed.
POOR LAW BOARDS (PAYMENT OF DEBTS) BILL
The further proceeding with this bill was postponed
Thursday.
The remaining orders having been disposed of, lio 1010
adjourned at ten minutes past two o'clock.

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