The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 2, 1861.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

trict.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-YESTERDAY.

ALLEGED NEGLECT OF IRISH AFFAIRS.
- - -

Mr. SCULLY gave notice that to-morrow he would ask
the First Lord of the Treasury whether the hon. member
for Clonmel offered to resign his position as one of the Lords
Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, upon the ground
that Irish interests had been disregarded by the present
Administration, and has such offer been finally accepted ;
and, if so, has the vacancy so created been filled up, and is
it intended to fill it, and when ?

THE DERRYVEAGH EVICTIONS.
Mr. SCULLY asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if
be intended to propose any inquiry, either through a royal
commission or select committee of the House of Commons,
into the recent evictions from the lands of Derryveagh, in
the county of Donegal, or as to the statements published
by Mr. J. G. Adair, J.P., attributing a guilty knowledge
of murder and other crimes to the evicted inhabitants ; also
as to the several allegations made in Parliament on Mon-
day, the 24th day of June, that Ribbonism existed in that
district ; or, if indisposed to originate an inquiry, would the
Chief Secretary be prepared, on the part of the Govern-
ment, to support or sanction a motion for an inquiry pro-
posed by an independent member.
Mr. CARDWELL said it was not intendel to propose a
committee on• the subject.

APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL.

Mr. STIRLING then moved the following amendment :
—That from and after the Ist day of November,
1861, the Universities of St. Andrew's, Glasgow, Aber-
deen, and Edinburgh shall be entitled collectively to return
one member to serve in Parliament. The hon. member
moved other amendments also, the effect of which was to
carry out in detail the preceding alterations which he pro-
posed. He called attention to the great importance of these
universities, which had been of the greatest advantage not
only to Scotland, but to this country also, for they
had provided first class education without any
restriction on sectarian grounds, a desideratum which had
only recently been supplied in England. He expatiated on
the extent and intelligence of the members composing the
Scotch Universities, and said that if such institutions were
permitted to have a voice in the legislature the represen-
tatives would not be found unworthy to take their place by
the side of the representatives for the English Universities.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the motion of the hon..
gentleman was in fact calling on the house to rescind
a resolution to which they had come in com-
mittee after considerable discussion, and after a large
majority had expressed their opinion. He argued
that from the constitution of Scotch universities
up to a recent period they were not to be placed in the
same position as the English and Irish universities. In
the Reform Bill of 1832 there was no proposition to enfran-
chise the universities, and although a great improvement
had lately taken place in their constitution, by which
graduation was necessary, still he did not think the time
had arrived to give them a superior claim to the seats to be
disposed of as compared with the West Riding and South
Lancashire.
Mr. C. BRUCE supported the amendment.

Sir J. GRAHAM stated the reasons which induced him
not to press on that occasion the claims of the London Uni-
versity, which he had given notice to bring forward in the
event of a member being refused to Chelsea and Kensing-
ton ; and having stated his views to the Senate of the Lon-
don University, he was acting in accordance with their
decision in postponing their claims to a more favourable
opportunity.
Mr. BLACKBURN contended that the Government was
wrong upon their own principles, and that it was unfair
that Scotland should not have a greater representation.
Mr. G. DUFF advocated the claims of the Scotch uni-
versities.

Mr. BAILLIE hoped that Mr. Stirling would rest satis-
fied with having brought the justice of their case before the
house; but as the house appeared to be almost unanimous
in favour of preferring the claim of South Lancashire, he
hoped he would not press his motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL expressed a hope that this advice
would be taken, as nothing could be gained by dividing the
house.

Mr. STIRLING was quite satisfied with the discussion
his motion had elicited, and with the permission of the
house he would withdraw his motion.
The clauses were then withdrawn.

Mr. COLLINS, who had a notice on the paper to move
clauses to the effect that the West Riding of Yorkshire
should henceforth be divided, and that two knights of the
shire should be returned for each division, said that clauses
so similar in nature had been proposed by the right hon.
baronet (Sir G. C. Lewis) in the name of the Government,
that he thought he should best consult the wishes of the
house by withdrawing the clauses. (Hear.)
The clauses were then, by permission, withdrawn.
Sir G. C. LEWIS then moved the followilag clause :
" After the dissolution of this present Parliament the West
Riding of the county of York shall be divided into two di-
visions, to be called respectively the northern and southern
divisions ; the northern division shall contain the Wapen-
takes of Staincliffe and Ewecross, Claro, Shyrack and Mor-
ley ; the southern division shall contain the Wapenstakes of
Barkston, Ash, Osgoldcross, Strafforth and Tickhill, Stain-
cross, and Agbrigg."

Mr. BAINES said he felt considerable objection to the
course which the Government were now pursuing. It was
not a course which had been recommended by tha determi-
nate judgment of the house themselves. The house wished
to give two out of the four seats to boroughs and two to
counties; although he (llr. Baines) thought that the four
seats might have been very fairly all given to boroughs and
none to counties. He admitted that the two boroughs of St.
Albans and Sudbury were small, but there were others in
the country still smaller, and these boroughs frequently re-
turned men who represented large mercantile interests, and
not solely the landed interest. As a member for one of the
largest boroughs in the West Riding he had one serious ob-
jection to bring to the proposed division of that peat con-
stituency. Although he did not object to four members
being given to the West Riding, he must confess that in his
opinion the metropolitan county had a better claim ; for in
Middlesex there were eighteen members with a population
of 2,800,000; whereas in the West Riding there were
the same number of members with a population
of only 1,500,000. One result of this mode of division
would be that the large clothing district of Leeds and Hud-
dersfield would be severed into two parts. He should nct,
however, think it necessary to divide the house on the
clause.
The clause was then agreed to.

The following clause was then, on the motion of Sir G.
C. LEWIS, agreed to :—" In all future Parliaments there
shall be two knights of the shire to serve of each of the said
northern and southern divisions, and such knights shall be
chosen in the same manner, and by the same classes or de-
scriptions of voters, and in respect of the rights of voting, as
if each such division were a separate county, and all enact-
ments now in force applicable to divisions of counties return-
ing knights of the shire to serve in Parliament, shall apply
to the divisions hereby constituted."
Sir G. C. LEWIS then moved a third clause, the effect
of which was that the polling place for the northern divi-
sion. of the West Riding should be at Leeds, and the oll-
ingizte.ifaitthilysousathiciezadtivhi:ion at Pontefract. P.
certain technical objec-
tions to take to this clause, which had d
think it better
that it should be postponed. Phirovirasnieonewias
.made
.for the
erection of new polling-pl
of a dissolution, but
he was prepared to show that the election Y
wit take place
before these polling places could be arranged, you would
have to use the present polling-places in pearisoofrithh e West
Riding, where the districts extended into the n
southern divisions ; and as persons must poll in the
deiniBt an'
d
for which they had their votes, great inconvenience
must
ust
ensue. Another point was that the high-sheriff would have
only twelve days for giving the necessary notices; and, the
present under-sheriff bad informed him that it would be
quite impossible to do it in the time. He should prefer,
therefore, that the sheriff should have the power of appoint-
ing as many returning officers as might be necessary. If
the right hon, gentleman would permit him he would put
his facts and suggestions into his hands, and if the clause
were postponed they might be incorporated in the form of
amendments.

Sir G. C. LE WIS thought it better that the clause should
be at once proceeded with. He confessed the difficulty
there existed in not allowing the justices to make provi-
sional arrangements on sudden emergencies, and he had
been unassisted by any precedent in providing for the case.
With regard to the other point, he had always thought the
Sheriff had power to appoint any necessary number of sub-
theriffs—but he would consider that point. On the whole,
hs Was disposed to think that the better way would be to
leave the law as it stood at present.
Mr. COLLINS said that when the question was started
before, it was proposed that the existing register should be
retained.

Mr. HADFIELD proposed as an amendment that
" Sheffield" should be inserted instead of Wakefield.

Sir G. C. LEWIS could not look upon this as a question
tsf much importance, although it was naturally one to the
hon. member for Sheffield. The whole question was, the
most convenient place for nomination. Wakefield was
situated near the border, and Pontefract was most conve-
nient for the central districts.
Mr. COLLINS advocated Wakefield in preference to
Pontefract, alleging that bribery had been as rife in the
latter place as in the former.
Mr. M. MILNES defended Pontefract, and complained
of the hon. member for Kneresborough introducing irre-
levant topics. All the gentlemen of the southern division
wanted was to select such places as suited themselves. (A
laugh.) The question was not between Pontefract and
Wakefield, but between the latter place and Sheffield.
The resident gentry of the southern division of Yorkshire
had declared that after full consideration they believed
Pontefract was the most convenient place where the elec-
tions should be held.

Colonel SMYTH believed that Wakefield was
ac-
cessible by road and railway than Pontefract, anirfroer al
public purposes was almost central,
Sir C. WOOD begged to say that he Was perfectly indif-
ferent as to which town should be selected ; but hethett
ght
on the whole, looking to the means of communication and
'hi position of the town, that Rontsfract was ova taco 09A,

venient place for taking the elections for the southern dis-

Lord GALWAY thought that Doncaster might have put
forward some claims, but on the whole he considered Pon-
tefract was the best place for taking the election.

The house then divided—
For the motion 97
Against it
Majority —3o

The clause was then added to the bill.
Sir G. C. LEWIS moved a number of verbal amend-
meats, of which he had given notice, the whole of which
were agreed to.
The bill was then ordered to be recommitted on Thursday
next, in reference to the now clauses.

confined to preparing a place at the entrance to the crypt
for its reception.
Mr. BLACKBURN begged to move that the item be
struck out.

Viscount PALMERSTON hoped the committee would '
not agree to the amendment. As to the taste of the car the
Government were not responsible for that ; but no doubt
the noble lord opposite (Lord J. Manners) would be ready
to defend it. (Laughter.) Whether, however, it was in good
or bad taste, the car was a relic of the Duke of Wellington,
and he hoped that the house would not let it be broken up
for the sake of this trifling vote. (Hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS always trembled when questions of
taste were submitted to the house, and he would not say a
word on the subject. He agreed, however, that it would
not be right or proper that the car should be broken up,
and he thought that the right hon. gentleman had made
a very wise selection of a place in which to deposit it.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether anybody could
see the car in the place in which it was proposed to place
it. If they could it would certainly be a great hardship.
(Laughter.)
Mr. COWPER said it would certainly be plated where
nobody could see it—(laughter)—except those wh,) wished.
At the same time he must say that there was a good deal
of difference of opinion as to the car as a work of art.
There were many persons that thought it a highly credit-
able effort.

Mr. BLACKBURN protested against the notion that
any feeling of disrespect to the memory of the Duke of
Wellington had prompted his motion. On the contrary, he
did not see why the one failure of the public funeral should
be perpetuated. (Hear.) Everyboiy admitted that it
would have been infinitely better that the coffin should
have been borne upon a common gun carriage ; and in fact
the disrespect to the memory of the duke seemed to him
to be connecting it with such an abominable abortion.
(Hear, hear.)

The committee divided :
For striking out the item
Against it 52
Majority

The item was therefore retained.
Mr. WILLIAMS now moved that the vote be reduced
by £6BO, the rent of the house for the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners.

Sir G. C. LEWIS defended the vote, in which, he said,
the house had acquiesced for many years.
After some discussion, in which Mr. Pearce, Mr. Black,
Mr. Disraeli, and other members took part, Mr. Williams's
amendment to reduce the vote by the sum of £6BO was ne-
gatived without a division.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, for furniture and fittings for public
offices,

Mr. A. SMITH moved that the vote be reduced by the
sum of £10,400 for furniture for the South Kensington
Museum, in order that when they came to the vote for that
department they might deal with the whole question at
once.

Mi.. COWPER replied that the present was the proper
time for deciding upon the question of furniture, and he could
assure the committee not only was there greater economy
practised at the Kensington Museum than at any other
public department, but this sum would be most economi-
cally spent.
Mr. LAYARD hoped that the hon. member would not
press his motion for a reduction.
The committee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against
Majority —lls
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £98,298 for the Royal parks and palaces,

Mr. BLACKBURN complained that the vote was in
excess upwards of £13,000 beyond that of last year, and
hoped some explanation would be given why that occurred.
Mr. WILLIAMS called the attention of the committee
to the fact that £24,000 was spent on the pleasure gardens
at Kew, beyond the amount charged last year, and he
wished to know why that occurred.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE complained of the manner in
which the estimates were made up, so that the committee
eould hardly understand them. The Public Moneys Com-
mittee made several excellent recommendations with re-
spect to the preparation of estimates, but he was sorry to
say the present Government had not adopted any of them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
understand why the hon. gentleman who last addressed
them could talk of the Government deluding the house
in bringing forward these estimates. He remembered in
1858 those who were then in office said the miscellaneous
estimates of that year were less than that which preceded
it ; but the fact was, the balances in the Exchequer were
overdrawn to such an extent, that enough of money was
not left to carry on the public service. The present Go-
vernment, he could assure his hon. friend, followed strictly
the recommendations of the Public Moneys Committee
whenever it was practicable, and would continue to do so.
The expenditure under the miscellaneous estimates had
never equalled the amount voted. He was ready to admit
that the estimates ought to be framed upon the principle
of keeping to the outside of the anticipated expenditure,
but he did not know that the house ought to vote 202
estimates with 202 margins; the effect of which would be
to vote a very considerable sum in excess of what was needed.
The vote was then agreed to.

On the motion that a sum not exceeding £54,692 be
granted to her Majesty, towards completing the works of
the new Houses of Parliament,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said this was rather an old
story. (A laugh.) Every one knew that the original esti-
mate for completing those houses was £700,000, but they
had now run the expenditure up to £2,500,000. The ex-
penditure went on for a long time, until it was at length
put a stop to, in a great measure, by the late Sir William
Molesworth, who brought the wasteful expenditure to a
conclusion. It appeared a strange thing that the House of
Commons could not control the expenditure of their own
houses. It was owing, he believed, to a Rant of good faith
in the executive. He wished to have an explanation from
her Majesty's Government how it was that they now came
to ask for a sum of £21,500 in addition to the gross sum,
and after it was said on former occasions that a final grant
of £121,000 would be sufficient to complete the houses.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COWPER said no doubt it appeared on the face of
the estimate that the sum of £20,000 had been all that was
spent beyond the estimate of Sir Charles Barry in 1859 He
agreed with the hon, baronet that this was a matter very
much to be deplored ; but he thought, if he looked rightly
at the matter, that he would see that those houses ought to
have been built by contract ; but instead of taking that
course, the course taken was to give a general authority to
the architect, who was not to come under any sufficient con-
trol of the Board of Works. He was responsible to a com-
mittee of the House of Lords and of the House of Commons,
and he had, in fact, many masters. Every one grieved that
those mistakes in the arrangement of this matter occurred.
With regard to the proposed vote, ho admitted it was not
satisfactory. But since Sir C. Barry had been removed
from the scene, they could not obtain any information. One
thing he might add, that the works were absolutely neces-
sary, and it was desirable that they should be completed.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he found the sum of £3,200 put
down for statues of the early English kings. Ho should
like to know who they were. (A laugh.) They had already
on the outside of the building kings from the very earliest
periods of our history, and in St. Stephen's Hall there
were statues of Hampden and other distinguished men,
but where was the statue of the man who had laid the
foundations of our liberties—the Lord Protector Cromwell ?
(Laughter.) He regretted that the mention of that name
should have excited laughter on the opposite benches—
(hear, hear)—because the people out of doors were anxious
to do honour to the greatest man of his age, and one whom
all since had agreed to glorify. The time had, he thought,
come when a statue should be raised to his memory. (Hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE observed that the First Commissioner
of Works had stated the sum now asked for would com-
plete all the works on hand, but there was a great gap at
the corner of the Clock Tower, which was intended in the
original plan of the late Sir Charles Barry to be filled up
by au elaborate screen, to give a magnificent courtyard at a
cost of £900,000. What he wished to ask was, whether
that plan had been abandoned, or what was intended to be
done with that gap ? Had the Government. in fact, any
plan or specification for the cempletion of the building, and
any estimate of the cost.
Mr. G. A. BENTINCK complained of the decaying
state of some of the frescoes, and especially that Mr. Dyce
had received £6,000 for frescoes in the peers' robing room,
and had as yet executed very little of the work undertaken.
He thought it was due to the country that it should be
known whether any steps had been taken to enforce the
completion of these engagements.
Mr. LA.YARD believed that one great cause of the decay
of the frescoes arose not so much from the badness
of the materials used in paintingyears them as from the
T
badness h e
old
lo df
the plaster on which they were painted. At Munich the fres-
coes had lasted for twenty without decay.
Italian frescoes had lasted for centuries, and it was natural
that the artists of this
better material was countryprovidecito
should hesitate until come
paint upon.
After a few words from Colonel Dims oN,
Mr. COWPER said a committee
w
the stone of which the Palace was buialts now sitting, as to
composed
learned persons, and he expected that they of very
would
shortly
report. -With respect to the remarks of Me Layard, he
believed that the damage to the frescoes .
arose
as
from the materials used in painting as the raaterialsforerutchhe
wall. (Hear, hear.) At all events he believed that the
recent paintings did not show such signs of decay as those
first painted. (Hear, hear.) But with respect to those
paintings there was a balance of money in hand already
voted, and the artists were only paid in proportion to the
work executed, so that no vote was asked for this year on
that account. The vote now asked for of £20,895 was in-
tended to complete all those portions of the building of the
Houses of Parliament which were now in hand, and would
complete everything that required to be completed, but did
not include any plan for enclosing New Palace -yard, and
he thought it would be-premature to come to any decision
as to what should be done with the site till the brick build-
ings were pulled down. They would be pulled down in the
course of next year, and then it would be decided whether
it should be left an open space, or in what way it should be
aPPropriated. Nothing iA tiKt own was iatade4 to all'

t 7.

up the rough wall of the Clock Tower that was at present
left uncovered.

Mr. E. BALL wanted to know when the flag-staff would
be put up on the great tower; and he also wanted to know
when there would be a statue to Oliver Cromwell, who was
one of the greatest men of his time—(cries of " Oh," and
" Hear, hear")—and when monarchs forgot their promises
he was bound to say Oliver Cromwell did not. While he
admired the monarch who now reigned over them, he be-
lieved that there was a moral worth in the character of
Oliver Cromwell which no monarch ever had surpassed ;
and he hoped, when a statue should be erected, that it
would not be placed in an obscure situation. (Hear, hear.)

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wanted to know whether this
vote of £20,000 would cover all the expenses. .

Mr. COWPER assured the committee that a statue of
Oliver Cromwell would be placed in the Houses of Parlia-
ment as soon as possible. As for the Royal Gallery, it
was intended to have a chronological series of the Sove-
reigns of this country, so as to give the names of every
ruler who governed it from the earliest period of their his-
tory.

Mr. GREGORY protested against having such a chro..
nological series as spoken of by the right hon. gentleman;
and reminded the committee that last year they decided
that no such works should be performed. In order, there-
fore, to tike the opinion of the committee on the matter, he
would move the omission of £3,200 intended for statues.

Lord CLAUD HAMILTON thought that no real Eng-
lishman ought to object to a statue of Oliver Cromwell
being placed in the Houses of Parliament ; but he never
could consent to have a vote of public money passed for
that purpose.

Mr. STIRLING objected to the sum of £6,455 being
expended on furniture in the Houses of Parliament, and
wished to know how it was expended.
Lord J. MANNERS hoped it would not be left to the
discretion of the house to select the names of the Sovereigns
to whom statues were to be erected in the Houses of Par-
liament ; because if that were done there would be as great
a diversity of opinion as prevailed in the distribution of
the four seats now vacant.

Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. member was not
perhaps aware how difficult it was to form a committee.
It appeared to him that the site was an appropriate one
for works of sculpture. Well, then, what works of sculp-
ture were they to have? Would they have allegorical
statues? Would they have works of heathen Danes ?
(Laughter.) Well, then, what would they have but
works to be selected from the history of England ? They
could not obliterate the history of England. (Laughter.)
Well, then, there was a certain number of statues to be se-
lected, and those statues would represent certain periods in
the history of England, and they were the statues of the
Sovereigns whose reigns were the most remarkable in that
history. He thought, then, that they ought to be left to
the committee, perhaps for the committee to be found fault
with and come under the control of the House of Commons.
(Laughter.)
The vote, after a few words from Mr. DILLIVYN, was
agreed to. •

The house then resumed.
EAST INDIA (HIGH COURTS OF JUDICATURE;

BILL.

On the motion that this bill, as amended, be considered,

Mr. BUTT moved, as an amendment to clause 4, page 2,
line 26, to insert the following clause :—" Every chief jus-
tice of any of the high courts shall hold his office during
good behaviour, and shall be removable upon an address
from both Houses of Parliament. Provided always that
when any judge of the high courts shall be removed from
his office a copy of the warrant or other instrument remov-
ing him, together with a statement of the reasons for such
removal, shall be laid before both houses of Parliament by
one of her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State within
ten days after the issuing of such warrant, if Parliament
shall be then sitting, and if not, within three days after
Parliament shall next meet."

Sir C. WOOD objected to the clause, which was nega.

tived without a division,

Sir C. WOOD proposed the insertion of a clause, the ob-
ject of which was to secure the interests of existing judges .
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE moved as an amendment
" That any covenanted civilian who may be appointed or
transferred under this act, shall be entitled to receive the
same salary as any judge appointed under the act."
The SPEAKER said the hon. gentleman (Sir James
Elphinstone) could not move his amendment, as the charge
was one upon the Consolidated Fund, without the consent
of the Crown.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the bill was
ordered to be read a third time.
Mr. MASSEY brought up the report on supply, which
was agreed to.

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THE :COMET.