The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-19 00:00:00

told, that the balance was considerably on the wrong side, mere narrow question of pounds, shillings, and pence; the
even excluding the extraordinary expenditure of the war. object of the superannuation system was to get good men
And even when the rebellion was over the charge would in the civil service at a moderate price, to keep.them as lo
t 5 •
not, for some time, be brought down to the point at which as was desirable, and provide for their retiring
from tes
it stood ere the outbreak commenced. We did not in India service when they should cease to be efficient. It W
possess two modes of obtaining revenue, which we had at necessary to have a clear, efficient, and uniform systeml,u..
home—the excise and the customs. We could not make was most desirable that a uniform system should be adopted
the excise severe, owing to the probability of the exactions It was no less desirable that some power should be given to
and cruelty which might arise from its collection, and in the Treasury to determine whether certain classes ought or
our desire to encourage trade with India we were unwil- ought not to receive allowances. Thus country p
were
ostmas-
ling to saddle it with import duties. There were reasons ters, who were not wholly employed by Government,
why, even in expenditure on public works, we should use a class, some of the individuals of which were entitled to
prudence and circumspection. Allusion had been made by superannuation and others were not. In many other cases
his right hon. friend the member for Northampton to the of the like nature it was desirable that the hands of the.
system of railways in India, but he could not agree with Treasury should be strengthened. Ho trusted that the bill
his right hon. friend that you should make the great lines would be read a second time, and that any discussion
which traversed the country, and on which you mainly de- would be taken in committee.
pended for the conveyance of troops in a cheap, and there- Mr. DEASY pointed out that the 4th clause,
extending
fore in an inefficient manner. (Hear, hear.) When on a this bill to judicial offices, was one which ought to be
line of railway great political and social interests depended, amended. As it stood, it was not clear whether county
the amount of expenditure upon it should not be a conside- court judges in England and Ireland were included in this
ration of much moment, and when it was said that railways clause.
in India could be constructed at the rate of £12,000 a mile Mr. WHITESIDE thought that the principle of the bill.
he did not think we could charge ourselves with much ex- ought to be applied to the cases mentioned by the hon. and
travagance. He wished to suggest to the noble lord that learned member, and as he understood the bill it did apply
the day was nearly come when there must be an alteration to them.
of the system of guarantees out of• Government capital, and Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD said that the effect of the
he hoped that the system of guarantees was nearly at an clause would be to put it in the power of • the Treasury to
end. He knew of no case of guarantee to a company in require any county court judge to resign who was spay-
which you could not have as good an argument for the con- five years old. This was a most objectionable provisions
strutting of works with Government men and money. He and would tend to tamper with the purity of justice.
looked at the question of guarantees with some anxiety, Sir W. CODRINGTON wished to know whether the
because such guarantees ought not to creep into the bill was retrospective or not.
exchequer at home, any more than into that of India. Mr. GROGAN said that the question to which the
He hoped that the construction of the branch lines lant member alluded was a most important one. He wis ea•
of railway communicating with the main lines in to put a further question, which was, whether the bill sP-
India would be created out of the _wealth of plied to supernumeraries ?
that country, and so have a tendency to create a native in- Mr. DOBBS pointed out that by the 13th section the
in such works. But the most interesting point in limitation of 65 years did not apply to, those persons who
this discussion had been raised by an "obiter dictum" of held office "during good behaviour." It therefore did not
the noble lord the other night, which should not be passed apply to county court judges: •
over. In law there was no more frequent cause of mistakes The bill was then read a second time.
and confusion than the " obiter dictum" •of great judges. SALE OF POISONS BILL.
The dictum of the noble lord had nothing to do with the Mr. KINNAIRD asked that this bill might be postpon pct.
present loan, because the noble lord did not propose to ask He had not had time to hear from the north on the subj
for an imperial guarantee ; but the noble lord let fall an ex- Mr.
WALPOLE proposed to put the bill through com-
pression which had excited a considerable feeling out of
mittee on this day week ; or even at a later period if hon•
doors, and which rendered it necessary that the house
members desired it. He therefore trusted that the house•
should not depart from the strong ground which had been
established in this matter. In the India Bill of the Govern- would now read it a second time. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUNT thought the bill ought to specify the names
ment of last year a clause was introduced for the purpose of of all the persons to which it applied.
settling all controversy on this point, by declaring that the The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
India debt was to be a burden on the Indian Exchequer committed on Monday week.
alone. He hoped that we were not going to set loose a doc- MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
trine which we thought had been set fast. The hon. mem- On the motion of Mr. WIIITESIDE, this bill was read a
ber for Devonport said that a native might bring an action
.second time.
against the noble lord the Secretary for India, but in all SALE OF GRAIN, &c., BILL.
actions the right depended on the contract which was en- Mr. M'CANN obtained leave to bring in a bill for the sale
tered into, and here the contract was that the payment of
of grain, meal, flour, butter, and potatoes, and other agit
the debt should be made out of the Indian, and not out of cultural produce, by the pound avoirdupois, the score of
the imperial exchequer. What, too, was the rate of interest 20 lbs., the hundredweight of 1001bs., and the ton a
in India ? It varied from 4i to 6 per cent., and were we
2,000 lbs.
going to give this interest with an imperial guarantee in
MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS BILL. a
the back ground ? He could conceive arguments in favour
Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in a kill to amend
of the policy of the hon. member for Devonport, and that
which was shadowed forth in the speech of his right hon. the Medical Practitioners Act (21 and 22 Vic. c. 90).
BURIAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
friend the member for Northampton, that is, that we should
take the benefit of the debt at once, and do something to- Mr. HARDY obtained leave to bring in a bill to amen_d
wards balancing the revenue and expenditure of India ; the 23d section of the act 20 and 21 Vic., c. 81, relating to
and more valid arguments might be adduced -for allow- burials.
ing India to borrow money on her own security, but
for one thing there could be brought forward no argu-
ment, and that was borrowing money in England at the
rate of Indian interest. The Government of India was not
subject to the control of that house, as regarded loans raised
in India. Were they going to allow India to bor-
row without the sanction of Parliament, and then let the
taxpayer at home bear the burden? He appealed to the
statute of last year, in which the doctrine was laid down
that Indian revenues alone should guarantee loans, and he
hoped that that doctrine would never be departed from.
He thought that we ought not to take a gloomy view of
the finances of India. Looking to what had been done in
that country, and how great had been the development of
its resources and its trade with this country, he could not
but expect a still greater development of its wealth and
industry. When they were debating a proposition in the
second year for providing finances to meet the expenses of
a great rebellion, when last year they only raised a loan of
ten millions, and this year the noble lord asked for a loan
of only seven millions, and said that he did not anticipate
his coming to the house for such a purpose on another oc-
casion, when they considered the crisis through which India
had passed, and that the whole amount of the financial
appeal to this country had been under 18 millions, he could
not but think that it was a matter of thankfulness. The
moral spectacle we had exhibited, and the prowess we had
shown in India, had had a great effect in Europe in raising
our character, and he believed that a very salutary effect
would be produced when it was found that so great were our
pecuniary resources, that all that had been done had been
effected out of the revenues of India itself, with a resort to
the English money market only for so small an amount.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said it was proposed to raise a
loan of seven millions for India in this country. When a
loan was raised for home purposes, it was guarded by cer-
tain precautions and checks—why should not the same pre-
cautions be taken in the present instance? It was a
dangerous system of finance to raise a large sum to be spent
in a distant dependency with no control exercised over it.
He would suggest to the noble lord whether in the bill
which we were about to pass he ought not to introduce a
special clause of appropriation, declaring the special pur-
pose to which the loan was to be applied.
Mr. LOWE regretted that the statement of the noble
lord did not enable the house to gather any notion of the
mode in which he proposed to extricate himself from
the difficulties in which he was placed. The noble lord said
that he did not see his way to any increase of revenue, or
any decrease of expenditure, and the consequence was that
there must be a perpetual deficit, which was to be measured
by the interest of the loans. They had a right to expect
from the noble lord some measure which showed a tendency
to remove the existing difficulty. The noble lord said that
the land revenue was elastic, and he spoke of the salt tax,
but he suggested no actual means of adding to the revenue.
This was the state of things which the noble lord 'admitted,
anti by that he bound himself to propose a remedy. Ho was
sorry to see that the only measure which the noble lord had
taken was to call on the Government in India to do that
which he (Mr. Lowe) said ought to be done by the Govern-
ment of India in England—for he had called on Lord
Canning to devise a tax which would balance income and
revenue. It was hard on Lord Canning, engaged as he was
in quelling a rebellion ; and of what use were the gentlemen
in Leadenhall-street when it was necessary to call on Lord
Canning to go into so large a question, and in fact to take
that course was to postpone the matter sine die. The noble
lord expected a trifling decrease in the civil expenditure.
His right hon. friend the member for Halifax had disposed
of that, showing that as the improvement of the country
increased, the standard of wants and comforts would en-
large, and you must look for a gradual increase in the civil
expenditure of India, as was the case in this country when
the standard of human wants was raised. He had only
one other thing to say, and that was that when the com-
mittee of 1853 had finished its sittings, it was its opinion
that the suddar and supreme courts should be amalga-
mated. A commission was appointed to see what could
be done, and they received instructions from the Board of
Control to take all the necessary preliminary measures for
amalgamation. The commission laboured for three years
according to these instructions, and, as they believed, com-
pleted an efficient code. They expected it would be adopted,
but it was sent to India, and referred to that anomalous
body the Legislative Council. The council persisted in pre-
serving many of the defects of the old system, and in par-
ticular left the Budder and supreme courts untouched, con•
fining their alterations wholly to the mofussil courts. If
this were not remedied, the natives would believe that the
Queen intended one sort of justice for the English and
another for the native subjects of India. He trusted that
the noble lord would not allow this system to go on, but
would rather suspend all change until he had more fully
examined the subject. It might be said that all this was
foreign to the financial question, but the fact was that the
great cause of all our troubles in India was the imperfection
of the judicial system. (Hear, hear.) There was now a
great opportunity of reform, and he earnestly entreated the
noble lord to take the matter into his consideration.
Lord STANLEY said that a great variety of subjects had
been touched upon, but he should take the liberty of con-
fining himself to the main question. He would say, how-
ever, that he quite concurred with the hon. member for
Kidderminster as to the importance of the revision of the
suddar and supreme courts, and had sent out instructions
to stay all changes until further consideration had taken
place. With respect to the civil expenditure, he feared
there would not be much reduction under that head. Some-
thing had also been said respecting railway guarantees, but
he submitted it was now rather late to discuss that question.
We had guaranteed forty millions ,and must take the con-
sequences. Guarantee, however was better than if Govern-
ment undertook the work, as in the one case they had only
to guarantee the interest, while, in the other, they would
have to supply the capital for the work. With respect to
the Indian debt he thought that nothing had been more
clearly stated by him on a former occasion than that the
change of government had not at all increased the imperial
responsibility. The debt of India was a fair charge on In-
dian revenue, and when he said that England had a contin-
gent interest in its security, ho meant that if the Indian re-
venue should ever fail in paying the interest and expenses
of civil administration, the question would then arise as to
what was to be done, and in that way he contended that this
country had a contingent interest in the financial condition
of India. (Hear.) In conclusion, the noble lord thanked
the house for the unanimous wish which had been shown
to assist the government in settlingthisimportant question.
Mr. KINNAIRD said he was glad the government of
India had not shrunk from the responsibility of giving gua-
rantees for the railways and other useful investments of
capital, without which those undertakings would not have
been introduced ; and the advantages of parliamentary con-
trol having been secured for India, he trusted that the in-
terests of that great country would be promoted by its
future administration.
Col. SYKES regretted that some hon. gentlemen had
shown themselves disposed to take so gloomy a view of the
prospects of India, to refute which he reverted to a com-
parison of the revenue and expenditure of India in the year
1809 with the financial statements of recent years showing
that, after 50 years had elapsed, the debt, relative to the
income of India, was less in proportion than it was at the
commencement of that period ; being 18 per cent. at the
former date, and only 10 per cent. in 1850-1. The increase
of prosperity was also proved by the imports and exports,
which showed a notable augmentation.
Tho resolution was then passed nem. eon., and the house
having resumed, the chairman reported progress.
OCCASIONAL FORMS OF PRAYER.
The Occasional Forms of Prayer Bill, on the motion of
Mr. WALPOLE, was read a third time and passed.
The Law of Property and Trustees Amendment Bill was
brought from the House of Lords and read a first time.
CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
second reading of this bill.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained that the recommen-
dations of the committee had not been attended to in re-
spect of this bill, and urged also that the report of the Royal
Commission was entitled to more respect. He wished to
know what would be the additional cost of the system now
proposed to be adopted? The witnesses examined before the
committee repudiated the notion that when they called for the
abolition of this tax, they were intending to get an increase
of salary. He thought the form of this bill was likewise
objectionable, as to repeal some clauses of a former statute
and leave others standing, was a bit by bit sort of legisla-
tion, the effect of which was embarrassing.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said it was the intention of the
Government to go into committee pro forma, on Monday,
with this bill, in order that it might be reprinted with some
amendments, which would render it more clear, and to some
extent meet the views of the hon. gentleman. The object
was to put all classes of the civil service upon an uniform
footing, and put an end to those anomalies which had so
long existed in the system of superannuation. With regard
to the additional expense thrown on the country, the
Government had not considered either the recommendations
of the select committee or those of the commission, but the
decision of .that house, which was -to put an end , to that
system which had hitherto prevailed, and he thought it was
a wise deci.sicul bas nottor should not be looked at to a

LUNATICS BILL.
Mr. WALPOLE obtained leave to bring in two bills for
amending the laws relating to lunatics in county and pri-
vete asylums.
These five bills were severally brought in and read a first
time.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes before one.

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