The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-27 00:00:00

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alive twenty days after his alleged death. He
thought that, considering the operations of the Chinese
artillery, it was evident that they were directed by other
than native engineers. He suggested, there r)1 e, that the
military authorities might have been induced to have
separated him from his fellow-prisoners, with a
view to avail themselves of his military knowledge.
He thought it was a duty to the bereaved family of the
gallant officer to make inquiries to ascertain his fate, and
he praised Lord J. Russell for the interest he took in his
fate.

CAPTAIN MACDONALD.
Mr. MALINS said that Captain Macdonald had en-
trusted his case with the house to him.. He recapitulated
some of the leading and well known circumstances con-
nected with the case. He thought the noble lord at the
head of the Government was bound to snake some expla-
nation on this subject, and the house to give an
.ple
nationalP
that expressionth e of
peoplefeeling
st Prussianwcoouunitdryshorwesetnhteedasa
.
indignity the conduct of the Prussian officials in re-
gard to this affair.
THE POPE AND CARDINAL WISEMAN.
Mr. NEWDEGATE called attention to the report which
appeared recently in the Independ4nce Beige in reference to
the succession of Cardinal Wiseman to the Papacy under
the title of Pio Decimo, in the event of the voluntary or
compulsory abdication of Pio Nono. He should have
thought very little of the report of the Belgian paper, did it
not add, on the 22d, that Cardinal Wiseman, the Primate of
England, was to be the representative of the Papacy in the
event of the death of the present Pope, or any other contin-
gency which would put an end to or suspend his authority.
The report went on further to state that this project was not
put forward by Cardinal Antonelli, but Cardinal Altiera, that
i the number of cardinals in its favour was 24, and that
only four or five hesitated as to its adoption. Now
it would not be an acceptable circumstance if Cardinal
Wiseman, already exercising functions contrary to the law
of this country, should be acting as Pope, and exercising the
full functions of the Papacy until a successor was appointed,
with powers to call an (Ecumenical Council for the election
of a new Pope. The Ecclesiastical Titles Bill distinctly de •
dared that no matters connected with English property
should be decided at Rome ; but now a Pope would be for-
mally inducted into England, who would of course decide
on these matters. Recollecting, as he did, the feeling
created in this country in 1851, when the authority of the
Crown was defied, and its independence invaded by a foreign,
Power, which usurped its authority ; knowing, too, that the
Council at Rome acted in the most audacious manner, and
that its decisions were never departed from, he wished to
call the attention of the Government to the statement he
had just made, and to the fact that Count Montalembert
asserted, of the Ultramontane party, that Rome was able to
commit acts in England which she could not do in Naples
even in the time of the Bourbons.
- REPLY.
Lord PALMERSTON said—l quite go along with the
hon. end gallant officer opposite in the feelings he has ex-
pressed with regard to Capt. Brabazon. It is very painful
for the relatives of Capt. Brabazon to be kept in a state of
doubt as to his fate, more distressing than the certainty
that would bo adverse to their hopes. I therefore entirely
sympathise with the anxiety the hon. and gallant officer
has so well expressed to ascertain, if possible, the real truth
as to what has happened that gallant and distinguished
officer, Capt. Brabazon. But putting together all the cir-
cumstances from which we can draw any conclusion, lam
afraid we cannot arrive at the conclusion expressed by my
hon. friend en this side of the house. lam afraid the friends
of Capt. Brabazon can only receive this consolation—that
by the suddenness with which his fate was sealed, we may
conclude he escaped those lingering and barbarous torments
to which his more unfortunate comrades were subjected in
their last hours. At the same time, if it is possible to enter-
tain any hopes of his surviving, I can assure the gallant
general and the house that the noble lord at the head of the
Foreign•office has taken every means that can be taken to
clear up this mystery. As far back as February the noble
lord sent out most stringent instructions to Mr. Bruce to
take every means, official and unofficial, for the purpose of
ascertaining distinctly the fate of Capt. Brabazon ; and I
am bound in justice to the Russian Government to say that,
as it was sending a new Minister to Pekin, instructions
were given him by his Government that the first duty he
had to perform was to use every means in his own power,
and to correspond with Mr. Bruce, in clearing up the fate
of this gallant officer. (Cheers.) At the same time there
is no kindness in endeavouring to encourage hopes so
likely to prove unfounded ; it is better that those interested
in the fate of Captain Brabazon should, if possible, take
the darkest view of the matter, till the certainty can be
arrived at. And there is also this circumstance to be
considered ; I believe the Chinese authorities have ac-
counted for all the prisoners except two—Capt. Brabazon
and M. De Luc. They either sent them back living, or their
bodies were produced ; and if the bodies of these two gentle-
men were thrown into a canal, as represented, that will ac-
count for their not being produced after the demand for
them. I should be too happy if the supposition of my hon.
friend should turn out true. If so, I have no doubt the in-
fluence of the British and French Governments will effect
the release of those two gentlemen from the duresse in
which my hon. friend supposes they may have been kept by
the Chinese authorities. (Itealr.) With regard to that
point, the noble lord has taken the steps I have described,
and I am not aware that any other steps can possibly be
taken. With respect to the other question, put by the noble
lord (Lord R. Cecil), on the transaction in which Capt. Mac-
donald was concerned, the whole of that transaction is ex- i
plained in the papers that have been laid before Parliament.
I can only say, I do not think that any expression used by
the noble lord at the head of the Foreign-office during the
discussion is a bit too strong—(cheers)—to stigmatise the
conduct of the Prussian officials. (Cheers.) It is not for us
to stand here and bandy vituperation with M. Moller, or
any one else; but I only say that I agree with the opinion
expressed by the noble lord in his concluding despatch ; and
though we are told that the whole proceedings were within
the limits of the Prussian law, I think they were of a most
unfriendly character, and most unworthy of a Government in
alliance with England. (Cheers.) I must say I am astonished
that a Government like that of Prussia, represented in its
foreign department by a distinguished nobleman, who spent
many years in England in a diplomatic capacity, and who
should himself therefore know the feelings and habits of
the people of this country—(hear)—l am astonished that
the Prussian Government, looking, as it was bound to look,
at the circumstances of the case, should not at once have
said, " Our officials have not overstepped our law ; we are
bound to tell you that ; but, sztaintuat jus summa iqjuria.
'We know that if a similar case had occurred in England;
you, the English Government, would have gone before our
demands to make every honourable apology and every com-
pensation, if compensation were necessary, and we feel it
due to ourselves, as a great Power in Europe, to tell you
that we entirely condemn the conduct of our officials, and
are ready to make every satisfaction which, as between
gentleman and gentleman, Capt. Macdonald could require."
(Cheers.) The Prussian Government had every motive far
doing this. (Hear, hear.) It is impossible to cast your eye
over the face of Europe and to note the relations of the
different Powers to each other without seeing that it is the
interest of Prussia to cultivate not the friendship of the
English Government only, but the good opinion and the
goodwill of the English nation—(cheers)—and therefore I
should say that their conduct in this affair has been that
which a distinguished French diplomatist has described—
it has been a blunder as well as a crime. (Cheers.) lam
asked what steps the British Government have taken or can
take in this matter. It was impossible to have demanded
from the Prussian Government either compensation or
apology if they were unwilling to make it, because we were
told by the law officers of the Crown.that, however harsh,
unjust, arbitrary, and violent their proceedings were, yet
those proceedings appeared to be within the limits of the
Prussian law. One regrets for the sake of the Prussians
that they should have such a law. (Loud cries of Hear.)
But that being the case, it rwas impossible for the British i
Government to press any demand upon the Government of
Prussia. Well, then, what warning are we to give to Bri-
tish rnbjects as to such acts ? Sir, I think the notoriety
whichthis transaction has received, both through the news-
papers all over the country, and through the discussions in
this house, will prove as great a warning as could be given
individually to gentlemen desiring passports for Prussia.
(Hear.) I think, however, that a warning will also have
been given to the Prussians—(hear, hear)—when they
tekhhnieosewrsp,)r_aoscaetnhedfleiynwgwhialhtl, eaystehreiinungnflpinivreeendreseaeslymeinryadyignEopnaegtrialoitsneh,rawaaistnht_hwe(yhkiunchdo
doubt do—party influences, for instance—upon the feel-
ings of persons in authority, I think that that which has
happened is not very likely to happen again. With regard
to the question 'put to me by the bon. baronet respecting
Syria, I am sorry to say that I do not think it would be
consistent with the public interest to produce any papers on
the subject to which his question relates—namely, what Go-
vernment is to be established in Syria, as a permanent
arrangement. These arrangements are not yet settled. They
are still under discussion by the members of the Commission
—by the Turkish Government and the different Powers re-
presented in the Commission—and until the Commissioners
have come to some conclusion and a settlement is made it
would not be desirable or useful ta produce the different
arguments which each party may have urged in favour of
the particular modification supposed by each to be best. I
can only say that I believe all the Powers are equally de-
sirous of accomplishing the same ultimate object—namely,
that of securing to Syria the authority and the Government
most likely to prevent the recurrence of those unfortunate
events which have led to the occupation of Syria by a
French force. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Newde-
gate) has asked me a question founded upon a paragraph
which he has read from the Independence Beige, stating
that certain contingent arrangements have been made with
reference to the death of the Pope, his abdication, or other
cessation of his authority. That statement was copied into
one of the English papers, where I have seen it, but all I
can say is that the Government have received no informa-
tion in any degree bearing out the statement. Of course I
_ _

cannot pretend to know what are the rules and laws by the royal prerogative might dispense with the sentence
which the Papal Government is directed, but I should ver,v altogether. A committee was now sitting upstairs on the
much doubt whether it is in the power of an existing Pope to law of offences against the person, which included most of
make daring his lifetime arrangements for carrying on the the cases in which the punishment of flogging was thus in-
Government, ecclesiastical or temporal, afterohis death. Keted. The particular attention of the committee had been
That, however, is a matter on which lam not competent directed to that matter, and their recommendations -to the
It 9 rem 412 OpiAlQii, I can only repeat that we have uo Wisp Jae Will 110 t anticipate mow, This PlihiShaol3t WOO

for:matiou which at all corroborates the statement of the
Belgian newspapers. The hon. and learned gentleman oppo-
site askod a question respecting the discussions that have
gone on 'between the British and Brazilian Governments as
to certain claims made on the part of British subjects. He
is quite right in saying that the conferences have been sus-
pended. They were suspended in consequence of the Bra-
zilian Government putting forward claims which we think
totally inadmissible—namely, that losses sustained by cer-
tain Brazilian subjects engaged in the slave trade, and
whose ships were captured and disposed of under the Act
of 1845,. should be part of the losses dealt with by the Com-
missiom, We contend that these captures have nothing
whatever'
do with the matters for which the Commission
to
was appoia,,ed. We hold that no question can arise with
regard to who, was done under the Act of Parliament ; that
we were acting within our own powers, and are not ac-
oountable to Bra d 1 in respect of this; and we therefore en-
F tirely repudiate the claim of Brazil to mix up the matter in
the questions which were to be considered by the mixed
Commission. An answer to that effect went not long ago
to our Minister in Brazil. We have not yet received the
answer of the Brazilian Government, but I am sure the
hon. and learned gentleman will see that while the ques-
tion is pending it is not consistent with the public interest
to give papers respecting it.
Colonel DICKSON, referring to a previous ques-
tion as to the fate of Captain Brabazon, urged the Govern-
ment to order a most searching inquiry as to the
possible fate of that gallant officer. He hoped the
noble lord would reconsider his decision, or he should be
afraid that if it got abroad that he was impressed with the
idea that there was no hope left it might weaken the exer-
tions of those persons who might be employed in discover-
ing the real circumstances of the death of Capt. Brabazon.
He implored the noble lord to use every means which the
influence and wealth of England placed at his command to
solve the doubt which existed, and if possible to restore a
noble son to his afflicted family and a gallant officer to his
country. (Hear.)
FLOGGING CHILDREN AND OTHERS IN
PRISON.
Mr. KINNAIRD asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether his particular attention had
been drawn to the returns of last session and this session on
the subject of flogging children and others in prison, and
that in particular in 375 cases in three years out of 854 they
had been inflicted by order of -,isiting justices in 52 prisons
out of 137 ; and further whether it was true that children
of tender age had' received severe punishment for shooting
in a cell and other trivial offences ?
THE APPROPRIATION OF SEATS BILL.
Mr. COLLINS said he was not going to enter into the
question of flogging children in prisons. No doubt they had
all been flogged at one public school or another in their
younger days. (Ironical cries of Hear, hear.) He rose to
call the attention of the right hon. gentleman and the house
to the frequent postponements of the Appropriation of Seats
Bill, which stood for committee, and to ask the right hon.
gentleman if he could name a day when that measure was
likely to be brought forward, for he found on reference to
the notes of the house it had been no less than eight times
on the notice books, and as frequettly postponed. At pre-
sent it stood for next Thursday ; but as it could not possi-
bly be brought on on that day he would suggest that it
would be better to postpone the further consideration of it
until after Whitsuntide. He would remind the right hon.
gentleman that independent members had not the same in-
ducement as the occupants of the Treasury bench to remain
in the house until two o'clock in the morning to watch this
bill. (Hear, hear.)
ENCUMBERED ESTATES COURT, DUBLIN,
Mr. WHITESIDE rose to call the attention of the house
to the matters alleged in the petition of Lieut.-Col. John
Henry Keogh, presented to the house on the 14th March
last, and in doing so he would mention that the petitioner
was entitled to two estates—one in the county Carlow and
the other in Kildare. A petition was presented to the En.
cumbered Estates Court, Dublin, for a sale of the property,
to pay debts contracted by the petitioner's father, and an
order for sale was pronounced in August, 1851. The Kil-
dare estate was sold in 1852, and it was found to realise
more than sufficient to discharge all the claims of the cre-
ditors, and among them the particular debt which was the
subject-matter of the petition. It was a judgment debt in
the penal eum of £2,000, the bond having been given to one
Ann Garstang. The sum due on the bond was £1,061,
principal and interest, and the judge ordered that amount
to be set aside for the personal representative of Ann Gar-
stang, and directed that letters of administration should be
taken out to her. That was done in May, 1853, and at that
time there was no legal personal representative. By the
practice of the Encumbered Estates Court, when once the
money was allocated by the court the petitioners received no
further notice with regard to it, and did not know when it
was drawn out. Before the representative could obtain pay-
ment of the money other persons wrongfully did so, from
the officer of the court, and when those persons were called
upon to refund it, it was found that they were insolvent,
and, consequently, only £6O was obtained from their estates
instead of £l,lOO. The trustee of the representative then
applied to the Encumbered Estates Court for an order
to sell the estate in Carlow, but it refused to make any
such order, on the ground that money had once been
allocated for the payment of the debt. Proceedings were
than commenced in the law courts by the trustee, and the
result was, the court held he was entitled to judgment for
the amount claimed, the judges saying that the money
having got into the hands of the wrong person was no an-
swer to the case made by the trustee, and that Lieutenant..
Colonel Keogh must obtain redress elsewhere. That gentle-
man had to pay the sum of £1,656 10s. sd. to the trustee,
and £222 16s. 10d. costs to his attorney, in consequence of
an error committed by an officer of the Encumbered Estates
Court. The reason why Colonel Keogh could obtain no re-
dress was that the 15th section of the act of Parliament
enacted that neither the commissioners of the court ndr any
person acting under the authority of the court should be
liable for anything bone Jae done, or omitted to be done, in
the exercise of the provisions and powers of the act. The
officer having acted under the powers of the act, there was
no redress to Colonel Keogh, and the question was whether
he was to have any redress rendered to him elsewhere—that
was to say, by that house. If there was a fund in court
Colonel Keogh ought to be paid out of it; but if there was
no such fund, then, as the house had compensated Mr.
Barber for injuries done to him, so the Government ought
to put Colonel Keogh's name upon the estimates for the
amount which he had lost through negligence of an officer
of the court. There could be,„no doubt that a grievous in-
justice had been done to Colonel Keogh, and he hoped the
Government would give a satisfactory answer with regard
to it. (Hear, hear.)
FLOGGING CHILDREN AND OTHERS IN
PRISONS.
Mr. HADFIELD said he wished to refer to the subject
of flogging children in prisons, and he desired the call the
o the
which rem
dha r
takenla be
placeact
by
attention of the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary
t
thatthine
ethrdeeserereeftuthrnesvfiosirtitnhg justices
eusyteicaerss
there
less than 375, out of 854, oases of flogging
for breaches of prison discipline. The act of Parliament,
which gave power to justices to administer corporal punish_
meat, could never have intended that such indiscriminate
floggings as these should take place. (Hear.) In some
prisons where there was no corporal punishment, as at
Wakefield and elsewhere in Yorkshire, it was fbund that
fewer persons returned there twice. He complained of the
infliction of flogging capriciously by the visiting justices,
without any limit as to the number of lashes or the instru-
ment employed. A power like that should be abolished, as
it was so capable of being abused.
Sir B. LEIGHTON asked the Home Secretary to say
whether it was not after an examination made upon oath
before the visiting justices, in a proper judicial manner, and
in the presence of the prisoner himself, that this punish•
went was ordered for particular misconduct—whether the
birch rod, which was applied to boys in prison, was not also
inflicted on the children of noblemen and gentlemen, in
private, by the head masters of public schools.
Mr. BRISCOE, with regard to the flogging, hoped the
country would express its indignation, and that the Home
Secretary would introduce some change to abolish that dis-
graceful system. We often indulged in vituperation of fo-
reign States, and talked of the cruelties practised in the
gaols of Naples and Austria. He would plead for the
infants, children of tender age, in English gaols. Could it
be believed that not a birch rod, but a cat-'o-nine-tails, was
laid on a child ? Such a cat, if there were but 20 strokes,
would inflict 180 lashes. Men would not be allowed to treat
an animal, a horse or a dog, in that inhuman manner.
Sir G. C. LE WIS, in answer to the hon. member for
Knaresborough, about the Appropriation of Seats Bill, said
he was quite unconscious of having shown any want of
respect to the house. An opinion having been expressed
that the Government were to blame for not introducing
their bills earlier in the session, he introduced this bill
early, in compliance with a general wish of the house. If
he had seen any opportunity as yet for its consideration in
committee, he should not have failed to avail himself of it
But Government bills were in a more unfavourable position
than those of private members, who could fix them for a
Wednesday morning to come on. Government bills could
not be taken on any night when there was other important
business, such as financial, or committees of supply. He
would now repeat, as ho said last night, that on
one of the first days after the financial business was
concluded he would fix a day for this bill, and hoped
to get it made the first order of the day. If
he postponed it from Thursday next tiap.t was because there
was no chance of its coming on that evening, but when
Thursday net arrived he might perhaps be able to fix the
day. As to the question of flogging prisoners, there were
different classes of cases in which that punishment might
be applied in gaols. In one class it was inflicted in conse-
quence of the sentence of a judge at assizes or quarter sea-
:ions, upon an indictment, the law in certain cases allowini
the punishment of flogging to be inflicted on adults, and in
more cases on children. That was the sentence of a com-
petent court, and inflicted by the gaoler; it was not com-
petent to the Government to interfere with the mode of its
infliction, which rested with the officer, though no doubt