The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

NONBY MA.

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THE 'SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY;yEVENING, MARCH 8, 1861.

IMPERIAL PA RLIAMENT

Paid,

Closing
Price.

Business i

73 75
4
Oil 921
16 161 d.
4.1 41d

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(YESTERDAY.)
THE NEW LAW COURTS.

Lord ST. LEONARDS reminded their lordships that a
short time ago he brought under their consideration the
report of a commission in favour of bringing all the courts
of law and equity on one site. The commissioners, though
in favour of such a combination of the courts, said not a
word about the Suitors' Fund. But it was proposed to
take £1,400,000 from the Suitors' Fund of the Com t of Chan-
cery for the purpose, and he understoad the noble lord on
the woolsack, who was at the head of the Courtof Chancery,
to approve of what he must call that misappropriation of
money. They were told that the Government were prepared
with a bill to carry out the object in view. He had heard j
of no bill, but he found by the Gazette that a new commis-
sion was to be issued to inquire into the office of the Ac-
countant. General of the Court of Chancery and into the ma-
nagement of the funds of that office. In his opinion it was
a most unprecedented proceeding. No charge had been
made against the office, either in that or the other house
of Parliament, yet the Accountant-General and his officers
were to be dragged before this commission. Either there
must have been some misconduct, or her Majesty's Govern-
ment wanted to know a little more of the funds they were
nibbling at and desired to lay hold of. There was not a
single equity judge or equity lawy.er on the new commis-
sion, and apart from personal qualifications, he objected to
Mr. Rogers and Mr. Field being members of it, because Mr.
Rogers was a willing witness before the first commission,
and Mr. Field, who was also examined before it, •expressed
his opinion that the Accountant-General's office was ut-
terly useless and ought to be abolished. It was not right
that a gentleman who had so committed himself should be
put upon a commission of inquiry. Such a mode of pro-
ceeding was disrespectful to the court of which his noble
and learned friend was the chief, and alarming to the
suitors, who had hitherto been under the impression that
their funds were under the protection of the law. The
Suitors' Fund by various enactments was expressly devoted
to purposes connected with the benefit of the suitors. The
fees in the Court of Chancery amounted now to £lOO,OOO,
but with a little care they might be reduced to £.50,000.
The noble and learned lord concluded by moving that an
humble address be presented to her Majesty for a copy of
the commission recently issued to certaii commissioners to
inquire int) the constitution of the accountant•general's
department of the Court of Chancery, and the provision
for the custody and management of the funds of the court;
and to ask the Government upon what grounds the
the commission has been issued.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said there could be no ob-
jection in acceding to the motion, but he thought his noble
and learned friend had unnecessarily alarmed himself. The
name of Lord Kingsdown on the commission ought to be a
sufficient guarantee to him that the interests of the suitors
would be protected. The noble and learned lord defended
the composition of the commission, and explained that its
object was to improve the system, so that the funds of the
suitors might be employed in the manner most beneficial
to them.

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Lord KING SDOWN said that he was a member of the
commission, for when the Government thought there was a
necessity for inquiry, he felt that it would be inconsistent
with his duty to refuse to serve, As far as he knew it was
not possible that the most profligate and rapaciously in-
clined commission should meddle with the funds of the
Court of Chancery. The whole object of the inquiry was to
ascertain whether any saving could be made or improve-
ment effected in the custody of the funds; and whatever
might be the suggestion of the commissioners, nothing could
be done except under the control of Parliament. Moreover,
_ _

he believed that there was nothing in the terms of the corn

mission which would authorise them to express any opinion
as to whether any portion of the funds should be appro-
priated in the construction of new courts. His noble and

learned friend (Lord St. Leonards) had done more perhaps
than any other person during his term of office to insure the

safe custody of the money; but he was mistaken if he
supposed that there was auy secret plot for the purpose of
obtaining indirectly an expenditure which perhaps could
not otherwise be procured. Personally, he should not at all
be unwilling to see this commission annulled, knowing by
experience that those who served on such an inquiry were
sure to incur the hostility of individuals whose interests

were interfered with, while on the other hand the public,
whose interests they were to promote, often joined in the
outcry against them. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)

THE PAPER DUTIES.
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN moved that there be laid
before the house an account of the gross and net produce of
the paper duties for one year, to the latest date to which

the same can be made up.
The Earl of DERBY suggested that the returns, should
be for more than the last year.
The motion was amended so as to embrace the last three
years, and was then agreed to.

nocrori ur- I ESTERDAY.)
AFFAIRS OF ITALY.

The adjourned debate on the motion for going into com-
mittee of supply was resumed by
Mr. JAMES, who expressed his regret that in a matter of
ao much interest and importance as the present posture of
Italian affairs the hon. and learned member for King's
County had not concluded his speech with a definite resolu-
tion. There could not be the slightest doubt that in Pied-
mont, and, indeed, throughout the whole of Italy, the debates
,of the English House of Commons were read with the deepest
interest and anxiety ; and for that reason alone, if for no
other, the able speech of the hon. and learned member for
King's County, impugning the Italian policy of her Ma-
jesty's Government, ought to have been followed by a dis-
tinct motion. His regret that the hon. and learned member
had not pursued that course was increased by the fact that
in another place ante-prandial conversations were indulged
in night after night on matters of the greatest interest af-
fecting the policy of Sardinia and the general affairs of Italy,
and that those conversations, though entitled to no weight,
were regarded in some quarters as if they were expressions
of the deliberate opinion of the assembly in which they took
place. It was not his intention upon the present occasion to
follow the hon. and learned member for King's County into
the contrast which he had instituted between the financial
position of Sardinia and that of the Papal States. Whether
the imports into the island of Sardinia had fallen off during
the war was a matter of no consequence to the present oc-
casion. One might as well take the imports into Ireland dur-
ing the famine as a test of the prosperity of England at that
trying period. So, with respect to the importation of coal and
iron into incona. Everybody knew that the coal and iron
imported iato Ancona were not consumed by the inhabitants
of the Pared States, but were intended for the use of the
various steamers touching at that port. They were, in fact,
no more a test of the prosperity of the inhabitants of the
Papal States than so much coal and iron imported into
an island in the middle of the Mediterranean. Nor was
it his intention to follow the hon. baronet the member
for Dundalk into his most discursive speech. The staple
of that scolding speech consisted of abuse of the Em-
peror Napoleon, allusions to a threatened invasion from
France, a revival of all those delicate topics which had been
used to excite the enthusiasm of our volunteers,and the sub-
stitution of nicknames for arguments. In the opinion of the
hon. baronet Garibaldi was a pirate, and the King of Sar-
dinia a traitor. Ile submitted, with due deference, to the
hon. baronet that a question of such paramount importance
as that raised by the hon. and learned member for King's
County should be discussed upon higher grounds and in a
more dignified manner. Nicknames were not arguments ;
abuse possessed no power of persuasion ; and nothing could
bo gained by following the bad example recently set in
France, where the priests were calling their Sovereign
" Pontius Pilate." There were two questions, as he under-
stood it, before the house, one relating to the conduct of Sar-
dinia, and the other relating to the Italian policy of her
Majesty's Government. He would not weary the house
with unnecessary observations upon the conduct of Sardinia
and its relation to the interests of Italy. It was natural
that the people of Italy, who had been exposed for years to
all the horrors of Austrian tyranny, should look to Sar-
dinia to relieve them from the misgovernment under which
they had so long groaned. Charles Albert failed in his
attempt to free Italy in 1848, but in 1859, when Sardinia
had obtained a largo accession of territory by the an-
nexation of Lombardy, it became more than ever
natural that the inhabitants of Southern Italy, seeing the
establishment of constitutional government in the North:
should desire and invoke the sympathy and aid of Pied-
mont. (Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet the member for
Dundalk had charged the Government of Sardinia with
complicity in the Garibaldi expedition from Genoa; and no
doubt it was known tc the Cabinet of Turin, as it was
known to the whole of &trope, that a strong national feel-
ing had burst out among the people of Italy, and that a
vigorous effort would be made by them to redress their in-
juries. The expedition from Genoa was the result of an
enthusiasm which the Sardinian Government could not have
restrained,just as our own Government could not have re-
strained the enthusiasm those hired mercenaries who,under
the pretence of joining the Papal police, left Ireland for the
purpose of fighting against the freedom and independence of
Italy. But Garibaldi was a pirate ! What reason the hon.
Garibaldi throughout the whole
baronet the member for Dundalk had for calling him so was
sted patriotism always pointed to
of morehis tchaar
ea e he
fc o
dui 181
nt
teel
rl
E.
the Sardinian flag and declared he was fighting for King
Victor Emmanuel. his progress from Marsala to Messina,
from Palermo to Naples, was one continued triumph. The
entire population was wi:h him, and a man who commanded
only a mere handful of Nolunteers, and who had no cannon
except those surrendered to him by the. Royal troops,
passed through the country lihe a conqueror. It had
ben said that when Garibaldi arrived in Naples that
caeital was like a city of the dead. He well remembered
all the circumstances attending the arrivalof the Liberator.
The enthusiasm of the people was unbounded, and the en-
trance) of Garibaldi into the house which had been selected
as his, residence in Naples was delayed by the crowd of
priests who pressed forward to kiss the hem of his gar-
ment. The soldiery threw up their caps with joy, and the
men who had been instructed by the King to fire upon the
people did not venture to perform the duty entrusted to
them, Garibaldi a pirate ! Surely there never was such an
instance of disinterested patriotism. (Cheers.) He had the
whole treasures of Naples in his hands, and yet he left the

city as poor as when he entered it. When he entered Naples
his only possession was his sword, and he quitted it with
barely sufficient to pay his passage to Caprera. (Cheers.)
During his stay in Naples he was careful that not an insult
should be offered to the King. He never entered the Royal
Palace. Property was as secure as in the most peaceful
times, and not a crime was committed which might not
have been sufficiently punished with a short imprisonment.
Was it not that, in consequence of the state of misgovern..
ment in Naples, his people were glad of the opportunity of
throwing off their allegiance to the King ? (Hear, hear.)
But, said the hon. member for King's County, that govern •
ment was a paternal government. He would read a short
extract from a letter which was found among the papers of
Louis Philippe, written by the father of the ex-King of
Naples, which would give a little insight into the way in
which the Neapolitans were governed :
"My people de not want to think. I take upon myself
the care of their welfare and their dignity. I must draw
closer to Austria. Liberty is fatal to the Bourbons. The
Bourbons are ancient, and if they were to try to shape them-
selves according to the pattern of new dynasties they would
be ridiculous. We will imitate the Hapsburgs. If fortune
plays us false, we be true to ourselves."
That was what was called the paternal government which
the ex-King of Naples was administering to his subjects.
(Hear.) It might be that for this state of things the ex-King
was not originally responsible ; the system pursued there
had been precisely the same for a long period ; no doubt
the last advice given to the ex-King by his father was that
he should still pursue the same course, and that the lesson
was instilled into his mind—which, no doubt, was true—
that liberty was fatal to the Bourbons—that they must imi-
tate the Hapsburgs, and be governed by the Austrians. Now
what was the state of Naples when Garibaldi entered ?
There was but one institution in Naples, and that was its
police. (Hear, hear) The dungeons were thrown open on
the arrival of Garibaldi. There came out from these prisons
men who bad been imprisoned for years for what they called
political offences, but who had never been tried or confronted
with their accusers. There was a system of espionage
there, because it was a Government that made war, not
upon the poor by exaction— it did not merely paralyse phy-
sical action, or abridge material comfort ; but it was a
tyranny upon intellect, freedom of thought, and the edu-
cated mind of the people. The system of espionage was so
ramified that he was afraid to tell the house the number of
sbirri and spies employed. The Government could say with
Macbeth—
" There's not a one of them, but in his house
I'll keep a servant fee'd."
The system was such as that under Fouche, when a man did
not know, when he was sleeping with the wife of his bosom,
whether he was not sleeping with a traitress and a spy.
(Hear, hear.) Some of these prisoners had been tried by
what was called a commission, but without even knowing
the offence for which they were tried, He remembered a
knost remarkable instance. One who had been released when
Garibaldi ordered the prisons to be thrown open called upon
him the morning after his discharge, and having made in-
quiry into his statement he had reason to believe that it was
true ; it was but a sample of the system which had been
going on. He was a young man and a gentleman; he said
he had been confined in Ischia or in Procida—they shifted
the prisoners from one prison to the other ; he had heen
confined for two years and two months; and what was his
offence ? He had one day taken a carriage in Naples to
drive a little distance with a friend, and they talked together
about liberal institutions. He had not returned to his home
and wife half an hour when he was arrested and dragged to
prison by the police. He was utterly at a loss to know who
were his accusers ani their witnesses. He did not know
whether the friend with whom he had been talking had been
the traitor or spy. He had never been allowed to see him till
he was discharged. His friend had been imprisoned for the
same period, and both, during an imprisonment of two years
and two months, entertained of each other the same hor-
rible suspicion, which, to honourable minds, was as great a
misery as the imprisonment itself. (Hear, hear.) It turned
out, when both met, that the coachman who drove them
was a hired spy in the pay of the King of Naples, and that
kte swore the accusation against them. That was a sample
of the state of things which prevailed in Naples. His hon.
friend, in alluding to the conduct of the noble lord the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, had made one of the most extraor-
dinary statements he had ever heard. In broad terms he
accused the noble lord of having prevented the King of
Naples from fighting at the head of his troops. A more
monstrous accusation, in a total absence of materials for it,
he had never heard. The hon, member for King's County
had misapprehended a despatch which had reference to a
totally different state of things. The noble lord referred to
the effect of interposition if there should be an attempt to
repeat the horrors of the bombardment of Palermo. Prevent
the King from placing himself at the head of his troops I
Why, he found in Calabria that long before that despatch
had been received the troops had. voluntarily laid down
their arms, and refused to fight for the King. Why ? Be-
cause the King's father had stated publicly that his troops
were meant to keep down his people, and if Naples or Italy
were invaded he should rely on Austrian bayonets. (Hear,
) sa—la .asa, 6Lo.cNte, uunerstand how such an
inference could be drawn from the noble lord's despatch as
that he had prevented the King from placing himself at
the head of his troops. But the hon. gentleman, referring
to the despatch of the 27th of October, said the noble lord
was not correct in stating that the whole population had
taken up arms. The noble lord was perfectly correct.
The hon. gentleman seemed to think that he was cor-
roborated in his views by the statement of the Times'
correspondent that there were not above 100 Neapoli-
tans who became :soldiers in Garibaldi's arm 3. Did
he not know what that meant ? Tho correspondent of the
Tines evidently referred to the citizens, or, if he might use
the expression, cockneys of Naples. Garibaldi had troops
enough, and the citizens of Naples enrolled themselves as
national guards and volunteers for the protection of Naples;
yet his whole army—the thousands of men who flocked
around his standard, were inhabitants of the kingdom of
Naples. What was the meaning of the despatch ? He had
the honour to call on the noble lord before leaving for Cala-
bria. (Hear, and a laugh.) He was politely received—
nothing more—as every one was who called on the noble
lord, whether political friend or opponent. He called for
this reason—he had intended to put a question to the noble
lord :—lf an attempt were made to bomsbard Naples as Pa-
lermo had been bombarded, what course would the British
Government pursue ? The house broke up some what sud-
denly, and he had no opportunity to put the question, and
he called on the noble lord to obtain an answer. The noble
lord said the Government would not, as he thought, allow
the horrors of Palermo to be enacted at Naples, and thy*
he might say so. Did the hon. gentleman mean to sup-
pose that the English fleet would be allowed to lay at Naples
calmly reposing on their shadows, and see re-enacted the
horrors of Palermo ? (Hear, hear.) It would indeedhave
been an impeachment of the noble lord to suppose that he
could allow such a state of things. Well, but it was said
there bad been a great deal of anarchy. Where was it ?
Where did it happen ? He was perfectly ready to admit
that for a short time there had been a state of uncertainty;
but what course did Garibaldi pursue ? With the same
disinterested conduct which distinguished him throughout,
he declared for annexation of Naples to Sardinia ; he con-
sented to the mission to offer it to Victor Emmanuel, and
with the same view the elections had taken place. There
were some extraordinary fallacies to be guarded against here.
A great deal had been made of the outrages said to have
been committed at either side by General Cialdini and the
Papal generals ; but the facts which he was about to give
to the house in reference to the extraordinary statement
made by the lion, member for the King's County would
show, he thought, that credence ought not to bo given too
implicitly to rumours of that kind. The hon. gentleman
had stated that at Milan very few persons had voted ; ani
that at Piacenza, out of 1,233 voters, only 63 had recorded
their votes. The franchise in Sardinia consisted of an £8
or £lO rental-40f. direct taxation, and there were other
qualifications such as gentlemen on the other side called
" fancy franchises." (No, no.) Well, then, gentlemen ea
his side of the house, if they preferred it. (Laughter) The
name had originated on that side, and was adopted at
the other. (Hear, hear.) There was nothing in the
name of " fancy franchise" except that it was rather vul-
gar. (Laughter.) Now, what were the facts with regard
to the voting in Milan ? That city was divided into
five electoral colleges, in the first of which were 1,304
electors ; in the second, 1,864'; in the third, 1,235; in the
fourth, 1,177; and in the fifth, 1,549. In the first col-
lege 775 voted ; in the second, 1,056 ; in the third, 678 ; in
the fourth, 598 ; and in the fifth, 843. (Hear, hear.) The
hon. gentleman had spoken of Liborio Romano, whom he
called " a traitor." Traitor was a hard name ; he was a
Minister who had charged sides— (laughter)—with as much
rapidity as had been done elsewhere, and who joined is coa-
lition Ministry. (Laughter awl cheers.) He really was
at a loss to understand how his hon. friend could have said
that Liborio Romano had been returned to Parliament by
only 119 votes. The fact was that he had been returned for
six places, and that in the district where the numbers stood
lowest in his favour 475 votes had been recorded, when inti-
mation was received that he had already been returned for
five other places, and he consequently declined to carry the
contest further. Another fact which would correct the im-
pression created by the speech of the hon. member for the
King's County, that the Italian electors were wholly indif-
ferent to the result of the election, was that in Piacenza,
instead of the voting being confined to 60 voters, as he
alleged, 923-electors voted out of a total constituency of
1,786. (Cheers) In Florence, as to which another extra-
ordinary statement of a similar character had been made,
he found that there were four colleges, of which the first
contained 1,719 electors ; the second, 1,347 ; and the fourth,
1,310. Of the third of these colleges he had mislaid the
return. Of the first there voted 709 registered electors; of
the second, 572; of the fourth, 462. (Hear, hear.) Ti e
figures which he was now quoting were taken from the off..
cial returns made to the Sardinian Parliament, and examined
and tested by a committee of that body. (Cheers.) Re-
membering that these elections had taken place amongca
people new to the exercise of the franchise; that they al
no organisation for the conveyance of voyers to thisiso
ll—
(laughter)—that inducements to vote such as existed
in
certain boroughs that could be named were altogether
absent, and that these really were primitive electors,he
thought the figures he had read conclusively answered the
remark that the Italian people had shown no interest in
the proceedings. The record of votes at Sardinian elec-
tions was likewise affected by the fact that a candidate
was returned as soon as a third of the constituency had

polled in his favour. Others, therefore, who might have
been willing to give him their support became luke-
warm about the matter as soon as it was known that he
had obtained the requisite number of votes. (Hear, hear.)
Deep interest and anxiety were felt in Italy with refer-
ence to all statements made in that House, and he
therefore pledged himself for the accuracy of these returns,
and should be glad that the hon. gentleman would take
the trouble of looking into them. The Italian Parliament.
on which an attack had been male, contained men of
integrity, of literary ability, and of great eminence in their
own country, and he believed their debates would con-
trast favourably with those of any free Parliament in
Europe. Both the hon. member for King's County and
the bon. member for Dundalk had passed great encomiums
on the Pope. Of the religion to which Fenelon and Dos-
suet had belonged it was impossible for him to speak
otherwise than with respect; but, in his belief, the tem-
poral power of the Pope was doomed. Those gentlemen
said that the Pope's government was a paternal govern-
ment, and that under it people were fax happier than in
other States. But could any one shut his eyes
to the fact that this temporal power—call it a theocracy, a
system of ecclesiastical government, or what they would—
was the very bane of his spiritual authority? If harsh and
cruel laws were administered in the name of the Pope, the
veneration in which he was held as the head of the Roman
Catholic religion became lost in the contempt and execra-
tion awakened by his temporal misgovernment (Cheers.)
There had been Popes, like Julius 11. and Alexander VI.,
who placed themselves at the head of armies and added
territories by conquest to the Papal dominions. There had
been Popes who protested against the principle of foreign
intervention, and Popes following after, who when their
temporal power was endangered, immediately invoked the
aid of foreign power's; and the result had been that, as
regarded their temporal possessions, the Popes were alter-
nately the vassals of Austria, of France, and of Spain.
(Hear.) If you proposed laws from the altar, instead of
the throne, if those laws be cruel and corrupt, the result
will be visited on that religion with which they are thus
associated. (Cheers.) If in the name of the Pope
cruel executions and trials without even a shadow of justice
took place—if bishops were made policemen and policemen
bishops (laughter)—if the peasant was constrained to see in
every priest a spy and in every bishop an enemy—could it
be wondered that all devotional feeling was destroyed in the
population, and that the Pope became responsible in their
eyes for the grinding tyranny of his temporal sway ?
(Cheers.) Much as he venerated the religion of every man
he believed that the Papal authority in its temporal aspect
was gone, and that the struggle to maintain it would only
endanger his spiritual power. The Italian policy of her
Majesty's Government had been impugned, but he ventured
to think that the course pursued by the noble lord ha i been
clear and unambiguous—(hear, hear)--and that his policy
was just and enlightened. (Cheers, and a cry of No, no !)
His hon. friend the member for Brighton said "No, no I"
and perhaps he went further than he did inhis view of what
the Italian policy of the Government should have been.
But he could not help thinking that to restore order and con-
stitutional law in Italy—(cheers)—was to have achieved a
great deal. There had, of course, been Republicans in
Italy—honest men, who dreamed of a political Utopia; but
Count Cavour—whom he regarded as one of the greates t
statesmen in Europe—(cheers)—succeeded in bringing the
swelen torrents within the limits of a wise policy; and in
this he had been assisted by her Majesty's Government,
who gave to him the moral influence of England. In this
respest their policy commended itself to the people of Eng-
land—(hear, hear)—and were it possible to elicit the feel-
ing of the House of Commons on any scheme of policy
shadowed forth by gentlemen who thought differently—
and this he might observe had not yet been attempted—(a
laugh)—he felt sure there would be a triumphant majority
in favour of the course which the noble lord had pursued.
(Hear,) England might pointyto that policy as filling one of
the brightest pages ofher annals. In the spring of lastyear the
noble lord had before him circumstances of great difficulty.
His aim was that there should be a fair expression of
the opinion of England, as she had a right to express her
opinion where the liberty of a nation was concerned. He
was anxious to keep the armies of Austria and France out
of any struggle in that peninsula, because Italy in such a
case would have suffered the worst, as she always had done.
This country occupied a position on this question of which
she might be justly proud. We bad in past times squan-
dered blood and treasure in unjust and impolitic wars. We
had lavished millions to uphold the Bourbons on the throne,
and had equipped armies to maintain a crumbling empire
in the East. But the moral influence of England was lately
heard amid the crash of arms and the conflict of parties.
Without the sacrifice of a life, without adding to the bur-
dens of taxation, she had assisted to secure the liberties of a
great country, which when united, would be her greatest
safeguard in the balance of power; for the policy she had
pursued would bind Italy to her by every feeling of grati-
tude, while it must also commend itself to the free spirit and
love ofjitstice inherent to the Britizb. people. (Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—My hon. and learned friend has certainly
made a very able speech. (Hear, hear.) He has not been
discursive, but he may have been:ante-prandial. (A laugh.)
He has treated his subject with his accustomed talent and
skill. In fact, he has given us, in a very entertaining
manner, what I may; without exaggeration, call the re-
miniscences of a vacation ramble. (A laugh.) We know
that in the autumn of last year he passed through Italy.
He:saw Garibaldi, and probably also Liborio Romano, who
if not a traitor, is at all events the biggest rat. (Laughter
end cheers.) What I gather from my hon. friend's address
is, that, after all, lawyers are like other men—that gentle-
men learned in the law have in the excitement of forensic
display,or the homely comforts of the Inns of Court,nothing
commensurate with the " pomp and circumstance of glo-
rious war." (Laughter.) I cannot pretend to import into
this discussion the animated topics that he has introduced.
My only object in rising is to offer a very few observations
which have been suggested to my mind by the course of this
debate. I listened attentively to the very able remarks of
my hon. friend the member for Southwark the other night,
with whom I quite agree as to the importance of this discus-
sion, both as eliciting an expression of policy on the part of
this house and as giving encouragement to the Italians,
who follow our debates with great anxiety, and are natu-
rally inclined to gather confidence from the support they
may meet with in the British Parliament. (Hear.) I can-
not, however, concur with that hon. member, or with the
lion. gentleman who spoke last, in thinking that this dis-
cussion has been brought on in an inopportune manner. I
see nothing inopportune or unusual in it; it has been
raised in accordance with an usage saften employed to ob-
tain a declaration of opinion from the Government, and of
which the hon. member for Southwark has before now fre-
quently availed himself in order to criticise or attack the
conduct of the Government. (Hear, and a laugh.) With
respect to the speech of the hon. member for King's County
(Mr. Hennessy), of course it cannot be supposed that I en-
tirely subscribe to the views which he expressed either as
to the pclicy of her Majesty's Ministers, or as to the im-
mense advantages derived from ecclesiastical jurisdiction in
Italy. But this I will say—and lam sure the house will
confirm nix assertion—that that hon gentleman certainly
showed much research in getting up his case, and put for-
ward his opinions with a great deal of spirit and ability.
(Hear, hear.) But the gentlemen who have preceded me
—the hon. member for Southwark, the hon. member for
• King's County, and the gallant knight the member for Dun-
dalk—(a laugh)—in alluding to whom I of course allude to
his Italian capacity—(laughter)—those three gentlemen
have monopolised the whole of our time. I wished to speak
the other night at the early hour of 12 o'clock—(a laugh)—
but 1 had not the opportunity. I have no intention now to
occupy an hour and a-half with extracts from the news-
papers, but will assume—as the honourable member for
Dundalk did not—that everybody is not only acquainted
with the opinions of the press on the policy of the Govern
meat, but has also read all the blue-books. (Laughter.)
Starting from that point, I shall begin with the honourable
gentleman who introduced this discussion. That hon.
member was, as might have been expected, very severe
upon the noble lord the Foreign Secretary. He accused
the noble lord of actively interfering to promote the Pied-
montese policy, and attempted to show that the trade and
commerce of Piedmont were diminishing and her finances
sinking. The hon. gentleman next turned to the condition
of the Papal States, which he described as very flourishing
and presenting a marked contrast to Sardinia. Now, know-
ing something of Italy, I was struck with this remark, for
it certainly never occurred to me that there was this great
superiority in the papal States over Sardinia. (Hear,
hear.) The honourable gentleman then said that the
noble lord had wilfully concealed despatches, and, in fact,
almost made him responsible for some of the atrocities
committed in Central and Southern Italy. He next
brought forward almost the gravest charge I have ever
heard one member of this house prefer against another, for
he accused the noble lord of having destroyed all confidence I
in the honesty and integrity of the Foreign-office. (Ireari
hear.) That is certainly very strong language, and yet i
I a
venture to say, without party feeling or prejudice, believe
the noble lord can justly affirm that the honestyandeinin-
tegrity of the Foreign-office are as safe in hi handseers.)
And of
those of any other man in England.h
ch
i‘ thisahnl
easmb
uqryui
holdstec e certain, t atihne,
sealsth ef whetherthat t et(
ino be e
lordin so
trer,no
Lord
department—whether
i
Lord Palmerston or Lord Derby s Pm
withenany
Britishthe regard— to the sentiment of
ceofual d
stricthave pursued any other Parliamentt
h a n
.that
o u nGtroyTeorrnt:heeel niceotynd( e h
ec
ee
rosf)
coupled with that stern
non-
intervention; but astricetxpnroens-siinenterevfemi4totroanl,
fbeeeliitngobsseerved,
uni-
versally prevalent throughout the nation. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. emfbeerrsfeourtih:winagr'ks,
v,Cluentteyekwaesn
canntsiwrceiryeddilbyertehnet
hon. member
view of the case. He said the Papal Government was arbi-
trary and despotic—that it maintained gross abuse—that it
was a disgrace rather than a subject of congratulation. lie
attacked the vices of ecclesiastical government, and then
insinuated that Sardinia's policy was the Italian policy.
Well, those two gentlemen's opinions being so diametrically
opposed to each other, I began to think that neither of them
knew what he was talking about., (Laughter.) They both,
indeed, began by telling us they knew the country, having
travelled through it. (A laugh.)
Mr. HENNESSY—I distinctly said I would not trouble
the house with my experience.

. _
Sir R. PEEL—Am Ito understand that thelaon. gent!e-
man has travelled through the country ? :11r, Hennessy

_;1•1111....1
signified assent.] Oh I then you have. (Laughter.) It
really appears that both of the hon. members have travelled
through Italy, but it is thrown in the mouth of the one
that he saw the country with different features—that the
one saw it with Monsignori, and the other with vetturini.
(Laughter.) Neither of these, however, could give any
ICorrect idea of the effect of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in the
Papal dominions. I also have seen the country; I know
it well from one end to the other, and I am anxious,
therefore, without enterieg into wild reminiscences of
rambles or vacation scrambles—(a laugh)—to give my
i oh en:vfn raeebsyss
eioosl n,u sat
enitdyo tjvhui
viewed
igheeoddu soef.
the
it
stateT
withh e opinions
cwoonuf
country
ripynedrl‘,s. oimtnha wyh, hi
los
think, be deserving of some weight on a question of this
magnitude and importance. I have followed the noble
lord's policy from the close of last session down to the pre-
sent moment with a very eager, I will not say a very hos-
tile, but a very critical eye. I have observed the difficulties
he has had to contend against, and seen one or two of his
shortcomings. (A laug.) Happily, however, his mis-
takes were corrected by subsequent despatches. in dealing
with this question these three great objects must have
pressed upon the noble lord's mind :---First, there was the
French alliance to be maintained ; next, there was the
policy worthyof this country to be adhered to; and, thirdly,
there was the interest of Italy to be considered. Now, in 'a
very remarkable speech delivered by Prince Napoleon the
other day, it was well said that the French alliance with
England is not with this or that Minister, but with the
great and loyal English people. Well, the noble lord had to
endeavour to cultivate that alliance, which as a member of
Parliament and a British subject I hope may long continuo.
But I admit the French policy in Italy was ambiguous ; it
madled at Messina—it interfered at Gaeta; it still inter-
venes in Rome; and I think it was a policy which caused
the country great fear and great uneasiness. Then, again,
there was another annexation—a small matter, but still an
annexation—of Mentone and Roquebrune. That subject
was alluded to on the first night of the session, and the
noble lord, in replying to a question, observed that it was a
1 matter of very small importance, which could not affect the
European equilibrium. That is quite true, but still it is an
indication of the policy of the French Emperor. Hear.)
I say that we should be very cautious how we allow these
transactions to pass by unnoticed, and Ihope the noble lord,
with his usual spirit, protested through Lord Cowley
against this annexation. I was mixed up with the events
of 1848-9, and I recollect well what was the policy of the
noble lord at that time. The noble lord allows the matter to
pass now as if not worthy of notice; but those two same pro-
vinces of Mentone and Roquebrune were united in 1848 by
the popular voice, and added to the dominions of Carlo Al-
berto. In Oct. 1819 that annexation was ratified by the Turin
Chamber of Deputies, and then came a despatch from the
noble lord threatening them with the angered' all the Powers
that had signed the treaties of 1815, for what he called
" this infamous annexation." (Hear.) I say that if that
was an act of usurpation on the part of Sardinia then the
present annexation is clearly an act of usurpation on the part
of France. (Hear.) But there was also another sort of
difficulty with which the noble lord has had to contend. He
has had to deal with a new system of action—a new feature
in diplomacy. I allude to the plan adopted by the French
Government of issuing pamphlets upon the various politi-
-1 cal questions of the day. Those pamphlets were issued fre-
quently from the French press ; they appeared anony-
mously; if the ideas they developed were approved they
were acknowledged, but if they were not approved then they
were allowed to sink into oblivion. There was one pamphlet
—Le Pape et le Congres—concerning which I find a sen-
tence in a despatch of the noble lord to Lord Cowley, dated
Dec. 24, 1860, That despatch was copied into all the French
papers ; but this paragraph I am about to read was omitted
from all, from the Illoniteur down to the Constitutionnel—.
" This pamphlet has made Pio Nono lose half his States."
I ask the noble lord what is his opinion of the last pamphlet
we have had ; because if ever there was a remarkable one
this is it. It is an open rupture with Rome, a declaration
of war; it attacks the religious system of the country; it
speaks, not anonymously nor in any concealed manner, but
with the sanction and authority of the French Government
and of the Emperor himself. Those were the difficulties
which the noble lord had to deal with in the French policy,
and I think ho has steered his course with admirable judg-
ment as fares the French alliance is concerned. (Hear.) As
to the English policy, that, I say, would have been thesamo
tinier Lord Derby as under the noble lord—it is non-inter-
vention, with the influence of our moral support. In the be.
ginning, I must say, there were some indications of vacilla-
tion on the part of the noble lord, which afterwards happily
disappeared, end from October until no w I think he has ace ed
in a straightforward and justifiable manner. (Hear.) That
despatch of August certainly did affect me very much.
(Laughter.) It was a despatch in which the noble lord
threatened Sardinia in case she should enter the Papal
States, and that, I say, was direct intervention. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—There was no threat.
Sir R. PEEL—WeII, it read very much like it. (Laugh-
ter.) However, the later despatch of October 27 was an
admirable one. Sardinia had then intervened, and the
despatch justified the net, and sail that whether France,
Russia, Austria, or Prussia objected or not, he (the noble
lord) approved of it. And that is the policy I approve—
(hear, hear)—and I think that from that time the noble
lord has pursued a most judicious course. He has had to
oonsider the interests of the country, but he could not
abstain from giving expression to the sympathies of the
nation ?or the cause of Italy. I have felt warmly for the
Italian cause, and I repeat that the noble lord has done
what no English Government could have declined (Leine.,
and has adopted a policy which has aided the Italians by
giving the moral support of this country to further the pro-
gress of liberty and unity in Italy. (Hear, hear.) I think
questions of foreign affairs will be the most important ques-
tions that we shall have to discuss this session. We may
have but few discussions here, but still I am convinced that
foreign affairs occupy the attention of the Government more
than any other matters at this time. lam sure that what-
ever differences there may be, if they only follow upon this
question a straightforward, disinterested policy with re-
spect to Italy, it !rakes but little difference what may be
the blunders of the Secretary to the Admiralty—(laughter)
—or what may be the differences between the noble duke
at the head of the Colonial Department and the noble lord
upon the subject of the administration of the colonies.
(Renewed laughter.) The Italian question is now centred
in Sardinia and in King Victor Emmanuel. That Sove-
reign was very severely handled by the hon. baronet the
member for Dundalk (Sir G. Bowyer), who made a huge
catalogue of charges against him. Now, I may say that
upon public grounds thre were few men in this house who
had more reason to censure Victor Emmanuel for the
transactions of last year than I had. I looked, and still
look upon the annexation by France of Savoy and Nice
as a most serious infringement. upon the established law
of Europe. I was the more induced to take up that
question in company with my hon. and learned friend
(Mr. Kinglake), because we felt that, while it affected
the interests of the country, it was also a severe blow to the
independence and neutrality sof an ancient and cherished
republic. (Hear, hear.) That was why I strongly advocated
the cause of that country against the policy of the King of .
Sardinia, and I feel that that conduct must still cause him
c)nsiderable uneasiness, especially when we find that, in an
order of the day issued at Naples, General Cialdini telling
the world that the Sardinians were fighting under the Cross
of Savoy. (Hear, hear.) Why, the Cross of Savoy no more
belongs to the King of Sardinia than to me. (Hear, bear.)
But he is responsible for an act which I am sure he must
still regret, and which he may probably have cause to
lament. (Hear, hear.) But there is one point in connexion
with that annexation to which I will, with the permission
of the house, refer for a moment. There has recently been
a meeting in Switzerland of generals, headed by the most
distinguished man in that country, who was himself a mili-
tary inslructor to Louis Napoleon when the latter was in
exile, and the words of General Dufour on that occasion will
show the feeling that prevails in that country. He said :
" Switzerland, although so well supplied with natural
defences, is nevertheless, comparatively speaking, of so
small and limited an extent, that without compromising her
existence she cannot take part in Euroyean wars. Neutra-
lity, therefore, is not only a necessity but the very element
of its vitality. Happily, that neutrality is at the same
time in the interest of the Powers which neighbour Swit-
zerland, and this has been the opinion of men best qualified
to form one from their experience in military stra'egy, such
as Napoleon and the Archduke Charles."
It is the act of Victor Emmanuel which has affected the
vitality of that ancient Republic, and upon that ground I
shall never cease to condemn the policy of Victor Emmanuel
and the French Emperor. (Hear, hear.) But when I see
Victor Emmanuel now at the head of the I talian. move-
ment, I am not so mean spirited as to prude him success in
his great undertaking. (Hear, hear.) Ido rejoice to see
him in the position which he now holds—the guardian of
the interests of Italy, and called upon to fulfil a task than
which there never was a nobler, and which I fervently
hope he may bring to a speedy and successful termination.
(Hear, hear.) He has to do with men of different ideas,
and I can do no better than quote the noble words of Count
Cavour to Baron Schleinitz in November last :
" Europe ought not to lose sight of the fact that the Sar-
dinian Government is in Italy the sole, Conservative power
capable of raising a rampart against the revolutionary elee
ment and of subduing it. We are Italy, we act in her a
name,ment.
b . Ili
We
we ala
raer et
the
also e
pt hr
ce,
ema moderatorsf ot
the
et hme onn aa tr
ei ohniac la
lmpor vi
ne
--
ciple, which in Italy had disappeared, convulsed by popular
vengeance."
a
That was aßndobthleatexapfrheisssiKoninog, ntahnedpaart
of Count
Europe
vindication toount Cavour of
his policy
of their position. And who has that King now to deal
down by the effect of successive revolutions, and poverty
fet-
tered by the triple bond of tyranny,it ignorance,army is both. These
with f He has to deal with a people whe! hemb.heaenagrraound
—for ignorance is poverty, and( y
res to enrol themselves. among arenaormaseoekthinegiatio_
of their national heri-
tage.tions of Europe, to possessionacquira
this noble aspiration ? Is it not
emancipate ewi phaotehtahveembseeelns so,
ground
o 7 down,
(Bear) Is not
adpeentopltehoefptahri-n
disaffection that have been manifested
tial and
disturbances of the country. No doubt there base been
caonaeafftot;t?des(efirveaintg) moral support
been coefn them
in sonic distriets„aiabria,
and on the borders of the Roman
disturbances in t_ theAltu°sriaoni
but,Rhone lives' have been poisoned by the long confirm-
lask any one, is it to be wondered at that a
miseries should, even in the moment of vie-
of their
ance
t doubt of the reality of their success? Mean)
tory, almost
I am happy to say that success is no dream, no fanci-
people States;
But
fanci-
ful vision, no ideal scheme of a few hot-headed conspirators;
it is a reality—a real Italy—gained by the unaided exer-
tions of the people and the heroic deeds of a man who ii
ain
eseanyt,
4liberty
..
advised i st
the Italians to trust to thetnselves and
not a pirate, as he was called by the hon. member for Dun-
dalk, but one distinguished for his patriotism, and who has
leLnogrtah,
I‘ I i
fl mi happysbuiv to
recently undoubtedly excited the admiration of all the nations of the
dwaowr In% g (111 Ipeeanr
"
ltalAt
y.
to no one else for
their liberty." That is hue. I have myself seen the Aus-
trian prefets and the mannikin despots who ruled over the
small States of Italy, and I have
_often asked myself—
" Does she always intend that a tyrant shall print
The footsteps of slavery there ?"
No I Italy is breaking her shackles and rallying round a
constitutional S • overmgn and the standard of liberty. That
is a noble destiny for a nation. (Cheers.) She will have
many difficulties to contend against; one of them I will
name, and it is one to which I wish to direct the attention
of the hen. gentleman (Sir G. Bowyer). We must recollect
that the movement now going on in Italy is not merely a
result of political feeling; the regeneration of Italy hoe a
higher cause. Were it merely a political movement even now
I should doubt of a full amount of liberty being realised.
And why ? Because, over and over again, political move-
ments with the plea of nationality leave been organised, and
they have failed. But the present movement for the regene-
ration of Italy is a religious movement. (Hear, hear.)
The political and the religious impulses are acting together.v.ie
Fanaticism and the mummeries of superstition are :1
,c, ,A
way before a spirit of toleration. (Hear,
hrordnerlctteragoi
be a great blessing. The hon. member
Alliance, but
is not exactly an advocate of the Protestantonastio asceticism--
rather to be regarded as a friend to
h evening, during the
(laughter)—observed to me the other
a Protestant chapel in
discussion, that an attempt to p
by op
1 eople rising against it.
Bologna had' been prevented