The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, 1, N

ua not to let our means of defence get too low in times of
peace. He bad once heard an iretelligent' foreigner say
that if he had to attack England, he would endeavour
to strike a fetal blow within two years after the decla-
ration of• war, for it took that time to put this country
effectually in a state of defence. That was a shrewd
observation; and one which it weuld be well to keep
constantly in mind when considering the state of our
navy. In the late war, indeed, the power to which we
were opposed did not put our naval forces to any
severe test ; but in future wars, and with other powers,
matters might assume a different shape. One conside-
ration which he wished to impress on members was, that
naval armaments were now much more expensive than
in former times, in censequence of the general introduc-
tion of steam in ships of war. For these reasons it could
not be expected that he should come down to a lower
level than that of former estimates. With these preli-
minary observations he would proceed to the considera-
tion of the estimates, which might be classed under two
great heads, the effective and the non-effective branches.
The non!effective- -half-pay, &e.—amounted to about
1,500,0001., and the effective to six and a half millions,
divided between men and material, wages, &c. The num-
ber of men to be voted for the remainder of the year was
43,000 seamen and Marines, and 5.000 in ordinary,
making in all 53,000. There were 33,000 seamen and
15,000 Marines, and the remainder consisted of coast
guard. Taking the numbers of former years, be found
that in 1849, 1850, and 1851, we had 28,000; in 1852
and 1853, 33,000; in 1854, 48,500 ; and in 1855,
54,000; but last year we had 60,000, which was subse-
quently reduced to 40,000. From thislast number he pro-
posed a reduction of 7,000 seamen and boys. Of the
60,000 voted for last year only 54,000 were actually
raised, so that the reduction actually made amounted to
14,000, not 20,000 as had been stated. A more difficult
task than this reduction of men had never fallen to his
lot. In former times, when men were paid off at the
end of their cruise there was no difficulty, but now,
what with the continuous service and the wish of the men
to remain, it had been a difficult and painful task to the
Admiralty, who had previously done so much to improve
the condition and increase the comforts of the men that
the latter were quite unwilling to leave the service.
He hoped the house would forgive him for saying that the
Admiralty was also most unwilling to part with them.
When the Arrogant was paid off not one man left the ser-
vice. When the Duke of Wellington was paid off only2lo
accepted their discharge. (Hear.) No ships had been
commissioned during the last 15 months except such as
were absolutely necessary for relief, and the gunboats for
China, while many ships were paid off before their time
had expired. This year there being 8,000 men above the
number, he bad taken strong measures, and offered the
continuous service-men their discharge. Many ships
which had been ordered home were now on their passage,
and on their return the reduction of 8,000 would be ac-
complished. The difficulty, then, was not in making the
reduction, but in doing it in time. He thought that
33,000 men would be sufficient in time of peace ; but
his object was as much as possible to disband men with
their own free will ; and he hoped that the house would
sympathise with the Admiralty in that motive, as by
keeping faith with the British seaman, he would sure
to, come forward with the greater alacrity when wanted
again. (Hear.) The permanent number they now pro-
posed to retain was 33,000, the same as in 1852 53, but
which was greater than the number in former years ;
but it should be remembered that our trade and com-
merce, which were every year increasing, required a
greater force for their protection than was required by
any other country. There was hardly a quarter of the
world to which our commerce did not extend, where our
merchants were not settled, and where ships of war were
not constantly demanded by our consuls for protection.
The house weald therefore see that for the protection of
our trade and commerce a large force was constantly re-
quired. With regard-to purposes not connected with
trade he thought it desirable that this year some attempt
should be made towards the formation of a home squa-
dron, not only for purposes of protection and security,
but in order that ships' crews and commanders might
acquire the habit of acting in large squadrons. It he
wanted any argument in favour of the proposition, he
had only to look to the practice of other nations: In
Russia the fleet went to sea in two divisions every year,
and in France, when the Grand Duke Constantine visited
Toulon, six sail of the line came to meet him. He (Sir C.
Wood) was afraid that when his Imperial Highness
visited this country it would be impossible to muster
more than two ships of the hue at Spithead. This
was not a proper state of things, as in ordinary
years we ought to have an adequa. e force near
our shores, ready to be sent to China, or for any other
emergency that might arise. The real difficulty with
which we had always to contend was the outbreak of a
war. Other nations, from having compulsory service,
could raise a greater number of men at once than we
could, although after a little time that advantage disap-
peared. We had during the war raised 20,000 men, but
what we wanted was to raise men, not in a year, but
in a week or two. During the last war the press bad
done wonders, and might be again resorted to in extreme
circumstances ; but the house would agree with him that
everything possible should be done to prevent recurrence,
if possible, to so harsh a measure. In Russia the men
were half-sailors, half-soldiers, kept in barracks all tee
winter, and put on board the ships in summer • but in
France the whole mercantile-marine was enrceled, and
could at any time be called out. The French officer
who recently drew up a report on this subject stated
that 60,000 good seamen could always be depended
on, and 20,000 not quite so good, but still very valu-
able sailors. To have any reserve in this country, it
would be necessary to maintain a squadron of evolution.
His proposal was for 15,000 Marines, being 1,000 less
than last year. They had felt it to be impossible further
to reduce the number of seamen and boys, and there-
fore had taken 1,000 from the Marines. Every one
I knew the value of Marines. With them and the coast
guard they had two important elements in ships' com-
panies. With respect to the coast guard, he was happy
to say that their organisation during the past year had
been a complete success. The greatest satisfaction bad
been expressed by the men; and so far from their leav-
ing the service in shoals, as had been asserted, only one
man had actually resigned. On the other hand, 800
bad entered the navy, and at the termination of hostili-
ties had returned to their former position with the best
characters. He bad every reason to hope that in the coast
guard they might calculate on an efficient reserve of eight
thousand men. The royal naval volunteers also had
answered every expectation, and he had only that
morning received two most satisfactory reports respect-
ing not only their ready answering to the call, but their
admirable practice with large and small arms. Their
conduct had been most excellent when on board ship fen
drill, there not being a single complaint of misconduct.
With regard to material, which incladed all the expense
of repairing ships, it would be found that all the extra
men had been discharged from the dockyards, and the
numbers were the same as they had been before the war.
As to the building of ships, he knew there was great
difference of opinion amongst critics, some voting for
large ships, and some for small, but in his opinion the
beet plan would be to Lave a few of both. We bad built
during the war a large number of gunboats, bat they
were intended for the shallow waters of the Baltic, and,
although they would be very efficient for any service
within reach cf shore, they could net carry coals or stores
for a distant voyage. They were not adapted for keeping
to sea, but for any service near shore they would be very
efficient. It would be necessary, therefore, to build large
ships and frigates, and if any proof were necessary of
the truth of that assertion, one need only look to what
was being done by other nations. Very few officers would
now-a-day think of fighting an action es ith' sailing ships,
Iparticularly as the French were building large screws,
and the Americans formidable frigates. He would not
Isay whether he thought these latter were as formidable
as they were represented, but he did say that we ought,
ifoccasion required, to be able teemeettberu with vessels
of a similar description. It bad always been hell that
Great Britain should have the most powerful navy in the
world. Some went so far as to say our navy ought to be
as great as those of any two other nations, but all held
that it should be greater than any one ; and that being
conceded, let him see how we actually stood as compared
with former periods. in '93 we had 115 large ships the
French 76 ; in 1817 we had 131, the French 72; in 1810
we had 39, the French 46. Now, in corning down to the
present time he would, as he had said before, leave out
the sailing vessels, and take a comparative view of the
screws. We had 51, 9 of which were block ships, fitonly
for a peculiar service, and not able to keep 'the sea • and
we had, built, building, or concerting, 42, and 40 fri-
gates. The proportions at present were 42 ships to the
French 40, and 40 frigates to the French 37. They had
heard of the American Merrimac and Niagara, but we
had nothing whatever of that description. Me would
not give an opinion as to their efficiency, but he thought
it only right that we should have something fit to beat
them if need be. He bad, therefore, ordered two vessels
of that description to be. laid down. To do all this it
would be necessary to incur very considerable expense ;
for, be it remembered, the expense of a steam fleet was
immensely greater than that of sailing vessels. But the
house would perhaps understand the difference better if
he gave a few examples. Our largest sailing three decker,
the Queen, cost 100,0001., the Duke of Wellington cost
170,0001. The Albion, 90, cost 95,0001. ; the Agamem-
non, 144,000/. Vernon, 50, cost 53,0001. ; the Llfey, 51,
sere w, cost 129,0001., so that the screw ships cost exactly
double what was expended on the sailing vessels. If they
took the cost of sailing-vessels at two thirds that of
eteantvessels it would probably be near the mark, and to
the extent of a third therefore they might calculate that
the expense of a steam navy would exceed that of a sailing
navy. It Was sometimes said that a much smaller number
of ships would do the same amount of work. (Hear, hear,
frona -Mr. Williams.) He did not think that was quite
clear. When they introduced steam they introduced an
element altogether novel ; and without doubt, as com-
pared one with the other, a steam ship in perfect order
was much more efficient than a sailing ship of equal size,
But steam vessels, as they knew, were much more liable
to get out of repair than sailing ships, and it was doubt-
ful, therefore, whether a less number of ships upon any
station would give a greater number fit for service. With
all the care in the world accidents would happen, and if it
was necessary to go into dock to repair, as that repair was
of a more difficult character than the repairs of sailing
ships, much longer time was required in the operation.
He bad no aid' to go into the question of the comparative
number of accidents in the Queen's and the merchant
service; but if he bad it would not be difficult to show
that the number in the Queen's service was less in corn-
' parison than in the merchant service. In the Govern•
ment service, out of 326 vessels, 23 bad met with acci-
dents ; whereas out of 297 vessels belonging to private
owners employed as transports during 15 months of the
war, the
there bad been 46 fined for delays occasioned by
accidents.
He might take this opportunity of answering
a question put to him the other night in reference to the
I Urgent. Since that vessel bad arrived he had made
I inquiry of her commander, and the reply was that from
the beginning of her voyage to. the end no accident lead
occurred—that she was a most peirfect sea boat, and in
every way qualified for the service in which oho was

engaged—that she was not cvermasted—that she had
not too much top weight, aid that her commander was
,almost inclined, when she arrived at port, to ask permis-
sion to land 20 tons of ballast out of her. The statement,
therefore, which had formed the foundation of the question
he alluded to was a pure fabrication from beginning to end.
(Hear.) They should remember that steam machinery
was undergoing improvemeets every day. The screw
was now being generally introduced, instead of the pad-
dle. To adapt the machinery to the screw considerable
alterations were necessary ' • and during the period of
transition it was possible that some difficulty might be
experienced, and occasionally accidents take place. But
some hon. gentlemen seemed to think that whenever the
machinery of a steam-ship broke down, the fault was
chargeable to the Government. The fact was, that the
whole of the machinery for the fleet was made in private
yards. Not a single engine constructed was constructed
by the Government ; therefore when an accident hap-
pened, and the machinery broke down, the blame, if
blame there was, attached, not to the Government,
but to those by whom the machinery was constructed.
The next item of expenditure in these estimates was
" stores " and the largest charge under that head was
for timber. The amount charged for timber in '1856
was precisely the same as in 1852 • but as during the
war it was necessary to provide for a continuous
supply of timber, and as it was impossible to say how
long the war was to last, and contracts had been entered
into extending over a number of years, until those con-
, tracts expired no very great reduction could be expected
in the charge for timber Another item of expense was
coals, which was altogether new of late years. Great
pains were taken to keep that charge as low as possible ;
but the substitution of a steam for a tailing navy must
necessarily make that always a very heavy item. A con-
siderable expenditure had been incurred in works in the
dockyards. This also had been occasioned by the intro-
duction of steam. They were obliged to provide the
means in the yards of supplying defects and repairing
accidents in the machinery, and as this was a much
more expensive kind of work than ordinary ship build-
ing. requiring a higher and more expensive kind of
skilled labour than ordinary ship building, the charge
under this head was also necessarily increased. It should
not be forgotten, also, that the nominal horse-power of
the navy had grown enormously of late, and now
reached the aggregate of 102,000 horses. With regard
to the dockyards themselves, they were not yet
in that state which the requirements of a navy
such as that which this country must always maintain
demanded, and were not what might be expected as
compared with the dockyards of other maritime nations.
Last year he visited the yard at Cherbourg, and found
that the works there would place anything we had in any
of our yards altogether in the background. They were
blasting immense places out of the solid rock, and con-
structing two inner basins, as large as all our basins put
together, and he believed the Cherbourg yard• was as ex-
tensive as Portsmouth, Devonport, and Keyham com-
bined. The area of the Cherbourg basins was 180 acres,
while the area of the basins atKeyham was only 34 acres,
and all the works were in proportion, and in the most
complete state of efficiency. It was impossible, therefore
that repairs and other works could be executed with the
same facility as in those of France. There was a time,
he remembered, when the yard at Keyharn was
thought altogether unnecessary ; but his right hon.
friend (Sir J. Graham) had nevertheless extended it and
had done wisely in so doing ; but last year, when he
(Sir C. Wood) went down to examine, he found it
far too small for its purpose, and bad given orders for its
further extension. The alteration and enlargement of
the docks had been rendered necessary. by the change in
the construction of the ships. Ships were built now much
larger than formerly, and some merchant ships were built
eoosiderably longer than those in the Queen's service,
and for some of those vessels it was necessary for the
Government yards occasionally to provide accommoda-
tion. He found the other day a dock constructing in a
private yard 400 ft. long, but they had nothing of the kind
in the Government yards, and when these large vessels
were taken up by the Government, as troop ships or other-
wise, difficulty was experienced in finding dock accommo-
dation for them when requisite. When they chartered the
Himalaya, two years ago, they had to dock her, but they
had no dock long enough, and the consequence was that
they had to pull down and rebuild one of the docks at Key-
ham, the newest ) and we had. When the Merrimacfrigate
came over last summer it was found that there were only
two docks in all our dockyards into which she could he
taken ; and for many of our own large ships the only
place where dock accommodation could be found was at
Keyham. This state of things could not of course be
permitted to continue. It was quite clear that our docks
must be lengthened and enlarged sufficiently to admit
that class of ships of the line now building, and which,
for the purpose of gaining increased power, were much
longer than we formerly used to build them. Sailing
ships and paddle steamers might be repaired without
taking them into dock ; but it was almost impossible to
repair a screw ship without taking her into dock. The
introduction of screw steam vessels in the British navy,
therefore, had rendered a large addition to the dock ac-
commodation in our Government yards absolutely neces-
sary. He had now gone through the principal items of
expenditure connected with the naval service, and the
reasons why the amount he proposed to ask for was
required. There was some slight increase which he
had omitted to mention, on account of the higher
price of provisions and some other smaller items
of additional charge, which he would explain
when the votes to which they applied were proposed. Ho
had laid before the house a general view of the state of
the naval service, and of the expenditure which would
be required to maintain it in an effective state during
the current year. He had compared the state of our
navy with the state of the navies of other maritime na-
tions—he might perhaps pay our rivals; but whether
rivals or not, we could not permit them to beat us in the
force and efficiency of this important branch of mili-
tary service. They might beat us in the numberof men
they could bring into the field, but ho should be sorry to
see the day when we were not in a condition to send oat
a fleet on the instant that should be equal to meet any
emergency, and maintain the honour and character of
the country. He proposed the same number of men for
the year which had been voted for the first four months,
viz., 53,750 men and boys, including marines.
Admiral WALCOTT said he must congratulate the
right hon. baronet do the intelligent, clear, and straight-
forward statement be had made. In hie opinion, 'there
was not a branch of expenditure which the nation
felt more disposed to support than that for the navy,
provided, however, that the funds were properly admi-
nistered. He had heard with great satisfaction the pro- •
position in reference to the evolutions of a squadron of
the fleet ; and he thought that 12 sail of the line should
be kept in constant active service, and this would keep
the officers perfectly alive in the management of the ships
at sea, and well acquainted with their duties in action.
In 1845, at the suggestion of one of the most distin-
gUished men in the service—he referred to Admiral
Bowes—two ships of the line were required to be
placed in an efficient way and prepared for sea. Oa
a Monday the order was received at Devonport to place
the Calcutta in order, and on the following Wednes-
day the, provisions and stores were on board, and in
every way she was within 48 hours prepared to go
to sea. This showed great alacrity amongst the men
and officers. With regard to the continuance service
men, ho hoped the Government would in the arrange-
ments made with them deal in a spirit of fairness.
And he trusted that the house would maintain the
efficiency of the navy, for upon it depended the preven-
tion of disaster, and the supremacy of England and Eng-
land's security. With respect to the coastguard men, of
whom there were 5,700, it was useless to talk of these
men being made useful at a moment's notice—for they
never could be useful it always kept on shore—a certain
portion ought to Le kept at t ea and frequently exercised
in the performance of their duties. He should be glad to
know whether there would be a uniform for the navy I
Also, whether there would be any alteration in the terms
of the Mutiny Act which would place the seamen on the
same footing with the soldier ; and as to naval cadets,
he had received an assurance that a ship would be se-
lected to receive them. They ought to be trained sad
prepared for their duties. Formerly the captains had the
nomination of midshipmen in their own hands, and then
they performed the duties of parents by looking after
and instructing them, but now the young men were left
to themselves.

Sir C. NAPIER said that although the cum of
8,00,000/. was a large sum to vote for the navy at the
present time, yet, after what the right hon. baronet ex-
pressed, he could not think that the estimates ought to
be reduced one farthing ; on, the contrary, they were
much too low, for the defences of the kingdom were not
in a fit state. Again, while England had 42 sail of the
line, France had 40 ; and if a war .should take place,
this country had not the means of manning the navy
properly. He thought the number of the men was a great
deal too low, and if a war took place, it would be quite
impossible to send an efficient fleet to sea. He was happy
to find that the Government, after 25 or 30 years' consi-
deeation, had at length taken the coast-guard under the
jurisdiction of the Admiralty ; but that was not all. We
ought to have efficient ships efficiently manned, instead
o the old ships which were now on duty on the coast ;
for if a war were to break out, we should have to call in
all the ships now on duty and pay them off, and issue
commissions for new ships. Moreover, a ship does not
wear the less from being in commission, but, on the con-
trary, wears longer than a ship in ordinary. Of the ma-
rines he must say they were a most efficient set of men,
whether ashore or afloat. What he would advise was,
that half the marines allowed on board should come
ashore and garrison the seaports ; that the Admiralty
should make up the number aboard with able seamen ;
and then, in case a war were to spring up, with the
coast-guard and the volunteers they could man the fleet
efficiently. For exemple, take a ship with a crew of
800 men, including officers and marines. Of these he
would send half the marines ashore—that was 100 men;
he would then complete the ship with able seamen,
which would give them 700 seamen aboard. In case of
a war the ships might be doubled, and with the help of
the coast-guard and the volunteers manned in the course
of a week, making a meet efficient fleet. The First Lord
had told the house that France had 40 ships. and we
only 42. France was equal, therefore, to us in ships,
and superior in the means of manning them 2 • she had an
army of 300,000 or 400,000 then, and we had but2oo,ooo.
What would the consequenee be were a war to spring up ?
Why, there would be an invasion immediately. That
was a consideration which ought to strike every man in
the house and the country. He warned the house not
to expect such victories as they had had over the French
during the last war. There was a thing which he had
heard that might be true ; at all events it was singular.
When the British fleet was manned for the Baltic, the
Admiralty received only 400 British seamen from the
merchant service. If that were true it was not the con-
dition in which the service ought to be. The right boa.
member for Carlisle (Sir J.. Graham) passed an act when
he was in office, empowering the Admiralty to call out
the men by proclamation, and to offer them a bounty to
enter the service. He did not know bow it would work,
but if it were tried in peace, and if liberal terms were