The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-24 00:00:00

ti . 14) t)- ,Al. 11 ON tiitY Mra AY igficHibiti

treaty of pevahas fulfilled all the elejeete of the war,
think that we ace entitled to ask for peace estimates, and
that those estimates should he the found ttion of what in
future years will be our establishment. (Freer.) Evely one
has said, ever since the question of peace was under discus-
sion, ever since t was known that the conferences at Paris
were going to begin, that a considerable time must elap-e,
and that a year would not be too much for Government to
reduce those establishments which were necessary iu war,
to reduce the number of men in the army and navy. But,
the war being over, the prospect of peace being before us, I
gay I know not why we should not say what is good for
185 S-9 is good for 1857, why we should not come to a con-
clusion as to what our peace estimates should be. I shall
listen with great interest to the statements which may be
made by the Minister of the Crown as to the necessity for
these estimates. A 9 they stand at present, if we are to fol-
low the estimates, I believe as to the arithmetical conse-
quences there is no difference, some 203,000/. or 300,0001.
may be in dispute, but we shall be nearly 5,000,0001. short
in the course of the next two (.r three years. Well, Ido not
think it is a very reasonable thing to ask for the estimates
for the next two years--I do not think the Chancellor of
the Exchequer is bound to give them ; and, indeed, if be
had been disposed to act an ambiguous part, nothing would
have boon more easy than to say, " I mean to cut down two
millions in the army, one million in the navy, and half a
million in the civil service estimates, and there you have
it." Why, every one knows that such a statement would not
be worth the piece of paper on which it was written, in ig-
norance of what would be the circumstances of the future
years to which it would apply. Before we go into these es-
timates we are bound to have an account laid before us by
the Minister of the Crown, with a statement of what is our
situation, foreign and domestic. Parliament has a right to
know what are the prospects of the country with regard to
foreign powers—how we stand with regard to those two
powers with whom we are at present in hostilities. They
have a right to know those circumstances before they vote
away the money of the people. I cannot accept the expla-
nation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to
ocal burdens, that they have to a great extent been placed
on the estimates of late years, because by far the greater
part of those sums were placed in the estimates before
1853, and the estimates of 1853 included the sums to which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer objects. I have therefore
only to say, that now, with regard to the question imme-
diately before the house, I shall be ready to go into com-
mittee of ways and means with the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, keeping in view the policy, the justice, the good
faith, looking to the cessation of the income tax in 1860.
I will not require larger concessions in respect to deities, to
customs, or excise, or other taxes in the year 1857 ; but it
is not for that reason that I would give up the prospect for
the future. When in the course of last century some emi-
nent scientific mon were sent from Paris in order to mea-
sure a degree, when they had traversed Lapland and reach-
ed an inhospitable sea, they put up a stone with the lines:
Sistimushic tandem nobis
Uoi defuit orbis,
That sir, cannot be our position. I trust that the extension
of commerce, the adoption aright principles of finance, will
make a continued progress; I trust that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer may be forced to confine his wishes for the
moment to the present budget; I trust that the country will
see that that which has already produced such glorious
fruits may in future have still greater results. I rejoice to
hear from him, and I think whatever party hon. gentlemen
may belong to, we must all rejoice to hear from him such
prosperous accounts, especially of British shipping, at the
present time. I trust that further measures of the same
wise and liberal kind, measures founded on no selfish ad-
vantage, upon no restrictive policy, upon no envious jea-
lousy of foreign nations, but upon a policy which begin-
ning with wisdom from yourselves ends with liberality,
justice, and bounty to all)mankind, I trust that that policy
which my right hon. friend says was inaugurated 15 years
ago—l care not about the date, but I should put it further
back, and should not forgettho illustrious name of Huskis-
son—l trust that that policy thus inaugurated has still
greater triumphs to achieve, and that its success will induce
the nations of the earth to follow our example, and thus
unite us all in the bonds of peace, of commerce, and of
amity. (Cheers.)
Mr. BENTINCK, in a speech condemning the income
tax, said he was not prepared to vote either for the motion
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or that of the right
hon. gentleman the member fur Buckinghamshire. As re-
gar-led the speech of the right hon. gentleman the member
for the University of Oxford, he (Mr. Bentiuck) thought
he had suggested a thousand difficulties with reference to
the budget without suggesting a remedy. After consider-
ing the course adopted this year, of asking the house to
affirm the proposition of the Chancellor of the exchequer
before they had had an opportunity of examining the esti-
mates, he moved the adjournment of the debate until after
the house bad agreed in a committee of supply to the army,
navy, and ordnance estimates.
Mr. M. MILNES condemned the speech of the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford,
whose policy of 1853 was the cause of the present difficul-
ties that had been raised to the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's statement. It therefore showed that it was better
for Chancellors of the Exchequer to confine their policy to
the current year rather than deal in the prospective. He
trusted that the reduction would not be carried too far,
and again impair the resources of the country, should
circumstances again render it necessary for her to take up
arms.
Sir. J. T. TYIIELL had never seen so strange a state of
things as regarded political parties since he entered the house
in the year 1830. It was a most extreordinary spectacle to
see so many right hon. gentlemen sitting on so many dif-
ferent benches. (Laughter.) In the first place there wasthe
noble lord the member for the City perched up behind the
noble leader of the house. (Laughter.) Then there were
right hon. gentlemen sitting below the gangway, of great
ability and official habits. There was on that (the opposi-
tion) side the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks
with his brilliant talents ; and there were about him many
hon. gentlemen of groat assiduity, perseverance and deter-
mination. All these hon. and right hon. gentlemenseemed
rea ly to fall upon the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) the
moment they fancied he had made a mistake, but he (Sir J.
Tyroll) had the misfortune—misfortune, that was, sitting
where he did—to think that the noble viscount as yet had
made no mistake at all. Theright hon. gentleman the mem-
bar for Oxford University had entered the house this ses-
sion in a most gladiatorial spirit.. He would hardly permit
the Speaker to take the chair before he showed himself in-
clined, by the power of his eloquence, " to make the worse
appear thebetter cause." He(Sir J. Tyrell) was oneof those
who thought there had been a gigautio fraud--of course,
he meant in a Parliamentary sense— (laughter and cheers)
—attempted upon gentlemen who sat in that house. He
(the hon. baronet) ha I read with surprise— and he certainly
disagreed with almost every word of it—the Conservative
article in the Quarterly Review, headed "The Prospects of
the Country." The publication of that article had been for
a month; and there were marks about it which were con-
clusive in his mini as to its parentage. It lauded the light
hon. gentlemen below the gangway for their great ability
in their official capacity. No doubt those gentlemen formed
a powerful section in the house, but fortunately—or un-
fortunately for them—they had no following in the coun-
try. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman—if ho was the
author of the article—of course hugged his pet budget of
1853. Now that house had in it a great number of Chan-
cellors of the Exchequer. (Laughter.) He did not know
whether the noble lord the member for the City had filled
that office, but he had filled almost every other. (Laugh-
ter) Well. on the first night there was a debate, in which
many of these eminent members took a part; and he (Sir
J. Tyrell) must say that rdeen he heard the speech of the
right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks, he felt, as a
humble Conservative, considerable alarm. (Laughter.) The
noble lord the leader of the house had been accused of being
fond of war, and of getting this country into scrapes ; but
he would remind the house of the reception the noble lord
met with at Manchester. (Hear.) With the exception of
the hon. member for that city, and one or two other gen-
tlemen, the Peace Society seemed to have disappeared.
(Hear.) That party had also been silent on the present oc-
casion, but he trusted the house would hear their views
before the debate closed. He supposed their silence was oc-
casioned by a feeling that they were opposed to the opinion
of the whole country. He (the hon. baronet) completely,
agreed with the sentiments expressed by the late Mr. Bro-
therton, who he regretted no longer to see amongst them—
(hear)—and who on the noble lord's visit to Manchester, ex-
pressed an opinion that he (Lord Palmerston) deserved well
of his country forcoming forward whenhe had been deserted
by his former colleagues. (Cheers.) He (SirJ. Tyrell) hoped
that before the house went into these nip-cheese estimates
with which they were threatened, they would be favoured
with the views of the gallant defender of Kara, and the
gallant gentleman who sat beside him (Sir W. Codrington.)
The late Duke of Wellington when told that certain
parties had deserted him, replied, " Theet.all do that at
some time, and some of them never come back again."
Now, it would appear that there were right hon. and hon.
gentlemen who were now very anxious to come back.
(Loud laughter and cheers.) Not only their appetite for
debate, but. their appetite for the good things of office, was
waxing w; rn. (Laughter.) The incomprehensible speech
of the right hon gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had left. him
(Sir J. iTyrel) in a perfotly incomprehensible position.
(Loud laughter.) He confessed that pro hac vice, his na-
tural leader would be the noble lord the member for the
City; but clouds, heavily charged with the electricity of
electoral influences, lowered so darkly over every part of
the house, that he scarcely knew what course to pursue.
Ile should therefore vote for the amendment. (Cheers.)
Mr. WILKINSON also supported the amendment, re-
marking that it was not very clear how the house had
come to he engaged in this anticipatory finaecial discussion.
The right hon. gentleman ll(Nfr Gladstone) had gone it to
the subject of the estimates ; but that was not the ques-
tion before the house. (Hear, hear.) Nor was his argu-
ment at all conclusive. It did not follow that the expen-
diture next year would be as groat as was now found to be
necessary ; and the revenue might con, i lerably recovtr
itself, by its natural elasticity, before the period arrived
when the right bon, gentleman said there would be a deficit.
(Hear, hear.) For his own part he (Mr. Wilkinson) would
have preferred the retention of another Li. or 2d. of the
income tax, so as to allow the reduction of the duties on ar-
ticles of ordinary consumption. He would also have pre-
ferred to see the duties on paper and insurances removed,
oven at the expense of retaining a portion of the tax on
incomes. At the same time he thought the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had been made the subject of a great deal
of unnecessary objurgation; for with the exceptions he
had named the budget met with his approval. (Hear.)
Mr. LIDDELL has listened with great p'easure to the
memberapprehension
whens;
buts eehc he
coofntfhe
ses
erightd to
feelinghon.
the right bon. gentleman spoke of reductions. As to the
speech of the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone),
wonderful as it was for ability, he must acknowledge that
ho was not at times able clearly to unlerstand the right
I hon. gentleman's arguments. When the right bon. gentle-
man talked of the budget of 1853 ho would remind the
house of the position in which we stood at the breaking
out of the war. We sent out an army, but that army
perished because we bail not sufficient stores accumulated
beforehand ; and when at last, by dint of reckless extra-
vagance, we provided stores, the mischief was done. He
therefore solemnly protested against falling back on the
estimate of 1853. If the bitter experience of the "sate war
taught us nothing else it ought to have taught us the folly
of keeping up an insufficient military and naval establish-
ment. He did not think that he should hamper the Go-
vernment or impede the services of the country by affirm-
ing the resolution.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE criticised the resolutionof Mr.
Disraeli, and contended that a surplus could not be spread
over future years. At the close of Mr. Gladstone's speech
he could not but ask what the right hen. gentleman really
wanted ? In the course of nearly four hours he had raised
objection after objection, difficulty after difficulty, but it
led to no practical result, beyond, perhaps, exercising some
of his younger constituents in dialectics. He could not
imagine that Mr. Gladstone really believed the serious
charge which he brought against the Government of aban-
doning the principles of free trade. Nothing could be
more contrary to the course pursued by the present Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. It was a strange argument from a
right hon. gentleman who got the country into a war when
he was in the Government, had then left the Government,
and had thou done all in his power to lower the lofty cour-
age and generous feeling of the country. (Cheers, and"No,
no.") He was in the house at the time, and must assert that

etteh wjs the tenaettGy of Mti, eils,datords iipti6oii, Though
his arguments wei e inconsistent, his object was ohm)
enoti4h; it was to induce the house to throw themselves into
the hauls of himself and his flaw associates. But it must
he a fearful panic which would lead the house to do that.
It would require tenfold his talent an 1 argureenta;,icr
skill to induce the country to lose sight of the obliquity of
his political principles. (Cheers.) On that side of the
house he was regarded by many as an nucandid enemy--
on the other as a treacherous friend, and in spite of hic
appeal to humanity, first for unnecessarily keeping up the
duty on sugar, and then in favour of its reduction, he
would find that the people of this country considered lin2 as
an unsafoguide and a most unscrupulouspartisan. (Cheers.)
' Mr. WHITESIDE was opposed to the retardation of the
reduction of duty on tea and sugar, awl considered such
a proposal a broach of common honesty. The income tax
in Ireland was odious and revolting to every m:in in the
country. The amendment proposed to pledge the house
that it should be got rid of in 1660 ; but this the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer refused to accept. He thought that
Ar. Gladstone's speech on Friday night was perfectly con-
sistent with his financial statement in 1853. It was said
he had pointed out objections, but, bad not shown how they
were to be removed ; nor was he called upon to do this un-
less "called in." (Laughter.) He (Mr. Whiteside) adopted
most of the statements of Lord John Russell, but these

"acts would load him toanopposito conclusioO.

Sir F. BARING said he had no doubt that if the right
hon. gentlemen were called into office they would soon
show the house how to cure the finance difficulty. All
these difficulties would then disappear, and the finances of
the country would then become iu a much more prosper-
ous condition than those hon. gentlemen now seemed to
think possible. He gave his cordial assent to the propo-
sals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as he understood
them. There was a singular omission in the amendment
of the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckingham-
shire—that was his intention with reference to the war
income tax. But that was a most important point with
regard to the budget. Did he intend that that should be
taken off or not taken off? Unless they told the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer what was the ' decision of the I
house on that question, it was impossible for any man to
trams a financial arrangement. How came it thrt the
right hon. gentleman had not stated his intention in regard
to that matter? The same remark applied to the speech
of the right bon. gentleman the member for the University
of Oxford. He had not heard that hon. gentleman on any
occasion give an opinion as to whether or not he was pre-
pared to take off the war income tax. (Hear) His im-
pression was that it was the intention of the right hon.
gentleman to continue the war tax for at least another year.
If that were not the intention of the right hon. gentleman
opposite, why did he not state it in his resolution? Was
there was some little difficulty in the two right hon. gen-
tlemen—the two stools between whom the war income tax
was to fall to the ground—coming to an understanding in
respect to each other's views on that point? If the house
did not intend to affirm the budget of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the war income-tax was a subject on which at
any rate it ought to be frank and explicit—if they did not
intend to take of the tax let the country clearly under-
stand what it was they did intend to do. He thought be-
fore considering the resolution of the right hon. gentleman
it would be as well to ascertain what was the real position
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in what state
their finances were. Ho thought the figures ho would lay
before the house would not bo very far wrong. Now let
them consider the reduction which the budget involved.
The first item was that of malt, on which thorn would be
a loss of 2,200,0001. Then if the pledges were carried out
in relation to the war income-tax they would take off
2,000,0001. more in reducing that tax from 7d. to sd. On
tea there would be a reduction to the extent of 1,500,000/. ;
on coffee, of 135,0001. ;on sugar, of 750,0001. He con-
ceived that all the reductions which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was pledged to make amounted to 15,500,000/.
The income of last year had amounted to 72,000,0001.—
taking from that 15,000,000/. it would bring down the in-
come for the ensuing year to 57,500,000/. Their expendi-
' ture, as stated, for 1857-8 was 65,000,000/.—there was thus
a deficiency staring them in the face of 8,0030,00b1. of reve-
nue ; but that was not all, because if they proceeded on
to the next year without any proposition being made by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they would then have a
deficiency of 9,0)0,0001. That was no common case, and
he thought the Minister who had those difficulties to meet
was entitled to the greatest consideration, especially when
they reflected that many of the engagements which he
would have to fulfil were not of his own contracting. But
what was he to do if he had to meet those engagements,
and he was not allowed to raise revenue on some articles,
such as teas. The right hon. gentleman had, in his
was surrounded. But they were told that in doing so he
opi-
nion, fairly and manfully mot the difficulties by which ho
had abandoned the principles of free trade. Now, coming
accurately to figures, was it true that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer bad abandoned his opinions of free trade.
(Hear, hear) ? Had he not adhered to direct taxation with
a view.to remit the duties on such articles as tea, coffee,
and sugar, ae far as the finances of the country would al-
low him? He (Sir F. Baring) was told the prospect of
getting rid of the income tax in 1860 was by the financial
scheme very remote. Now he was prepared to admit, both
for political reasons as well as on account of good faith,
that it would be desirable, if possible, to get rid of the in-
come tax in 1860. It was not a peace tax, nor was it equi-
tably levied ; and he was afraid that if it did net come off
in 1860, they should not get it off at all. But let them un-
derstand the position in which they should be placed in
1861. In 1861 they would have sums falling in from the
reduction on the interest of the National Debt to the ex-
tent of 2,100,0001. Then in the same year there would
cease payments on account of the war to the amount of
1,128.0001., or, comparing it with the charges for the year
1858-9, they would have 2,500,0001., those sums toge-
ther amounted to 4,700,0001. The amount which would
not be chargeable in 1861. Now, that was a large
part of the 7,000,0001., which was the amount of
the income tax to be remitted in that year. in addition
to that, the tax on succession had not yet reached its
maximum. They might reckon on 60 or 70,00 from
, that source. If they aided those sums together, they must
admit that the task to be performed in 1861 was not qui e
so formidable as sacrificing at one stroke 7,000,0001. of re-
venue. He admitted that there might be a deficit next year,
but he was at a If si to see how they were to enter into such
an arrangement in voting the estimates of the present year.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer ha I said that we were not
at present on a peace footing, and it was probable that next
year the expenditure might be reduced to such an amount as
would bring it within the revenue of the next year. Thera
was very fair reason for believing that the expenditure
might be reduced in future years. (Hear.) He believed
that it was very much the best policy to relieve the country
as much as possible from the burdens of heavy war estab-
lishments. (Hear, hear.) Reductions in such establishments
ought, however, to be made with considerable care and can-
tion, lest the probability would be that the saving would
be more apparent than real, and would entail ultimate loss
on the country. He thought that tfie Government might
fairly be credited for the reductions which they had made,
and that they must bo received as an earnest of their fu-
ture intentions on the subject. It might bo asked, why not
at once effect these reductions? He was perfectly ready to
go into the question, and he trusted that as men of business
the house would consent to go into the estimates. Abstract
resolutions, such as that before the house, did but little
good, and ho thought it would be much better if the house
would enter practically into the consideration of the best
means of effecting such economy as would admit of the
taking off the burden of the income tax in 1850. (Hear.)
Mr. WALPOLE agreed with the noble lord. the
member for the city of London ,in the main objects
which he had in view, and the means by which he
sought to accomplish it, but differed most completely
from him in the conclusion at which the noble lord had
arrived respecting the propriety of going into committee
on the estimates. He thought it would be the reverse
of all sound policy for the house to agree to the im-
position of the income tax of 7d. instead of sd. in the pound
for the years 1858, 1859, and 1860, without knowing the
expenditure of the country. The expectation of the people
of this country was that the war 9d. of the income tax
should bo repealed on the conclusion of the war. That ex-
pectation had been fulfilled by the announcement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer of his intention to repeal that
portion of the obnoxious tax, and he trusted that there
would be no necessity for re-imposing that tax for many
years to come. The total repeal of the income tax in 1860
p
was another expectation in which the public were fairly
entitled to indulge. Ho was fully aware of the great diffi-
culty which attended upon a transition state from war to
p 9 with which war establishments
could be
b andnplc ae
tchethieudifficult
conclusion of the peace, and the Govern-
Peace footing. But 12 months had
passed
went bad been warned of the necessity for a speedy return
to the systems of economy which had existed previous to
the war. In our naval and military establishments what
was required was a system which would combine efficiency
with economy. It was the want of a system combining
such qualities which had led to all the disasters which the
army had undergone in the Crimea. What was required
was a sufficient but not a superfluous force: The increase
in the estimates for the army and navy, as compared with
those of 1853, was not less than 3,000,000/. In the esti-
mates of the civil service there ha. been also a most extra-
ordinary increase. There was no doubt included in the in-
creased estimates of 10,000,000/. for the present year pro-
vision for the repayment of 2,000,0001. of Exchequer
Bonds, a mode of raising money to which his hon. friends
on his side of the house had strongly objected to en the
ground that it would entail the necessity of paying off the
money at a time whoa it would be most inconvenient—
and also the sinking fiend, and the interest of the war loans,
but still beyond this there was a very large margin in which
considerable reductions might be effected. He thought
that there existed a moral and virtual compact between
that house and the country that the income tax should be
entirely taken off in 1860. The compact then made in
1853 would not have a legal force like that made at the
Union of Scotland or of Ireland, but there were circum-
stances connected with the arrangement then made which
made it imperative upon the House of Commons to abide
by the terms of the compact then agreed to. The consi-
derations given on the part of the people in that arrange.
ment, were the extension of the income tax to Ireland, its
imposition upon all incomes ,between 100/. and 1501. a year,
and the consent to the tax upon successions. These bur-
dens bad been borne by one party to the compact, but
now the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood forward to con-
tend that there was nothing binding in the arrangement
then entered into. The right hon. member for Portsmouth
and others had contended that there was no legal force in
the compact of 1853; bat he (Mr. Walpole) felt strongly
that the equities of the case were strongly in favour of
the abolition of the tax at the time then fixed upon.
This was not merely a pecuniary matter—the honour
of Parliament was at stake ; and if there was one thing
Which more than another gave stability to their proceed-
ings, it was the confidence which the people reposed iu
its decisions. What were the strongest arguments ad-
duced against repealing the grant to Maynooth ? Was it
not that the grant had been formally introduced in an
1857,ment before of 1853 t. e
yB But act of Parliament, and that faith must be kept with the
public. The arguments which wore good for ono side were
equally suited to the oth-r. (Hear.) He agreed that there
wore disturbing causes which might interfere with the
fulfilment of a compact. The war was such a disturbing
cause, and had it continued until 1860 it would have been
impossible to have complied with the terms of the agree-
nheew wanted
what t
ht
eo
expenditure
dwi
thuyr
ein
wasth to
the year
r,
they were to be called upon to continue a tax which by law
they were bound to repeal if they could. (Rear.) The im-
position of the additional twopence in the pound could not
by possibility facilitate the departure of the tax in 1860.
The abolition of the tax by the proposition of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was an absolute impossibility.
(Hear.) The proposed tax of 7d. in the pound instead of
sd. would produce 7,000,0001. instead of 5,000,000/. at the
reduced rate, and it would be far more difficult to provide
a substitute for seven millions than five millions of re-
venue at the end of 1850. (Hear, hear.) He thought
he could see great practical good that the debate had
already produced. He could perceive an altered tone with
reference to the estimate, as origin Illy proposed, and also
with reference to the taxation about to be placed on the
people. It did not require any great sagacity to pre-
dict the amount of good that would follow this discus-
sion. First, that the tea duty would not be increased ;
secondly, the estimates would not stand as they were ;