The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-30 00:00:00

FROME ELECTION,

It was announced that the petition in the case of the
Frome election was withdrawn, and the order of the day
for its being tried was discharged.
The house adjourned at four o'clock.

The house resumed at six o'clock.
GLOUCSTER ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. HARDY brought up the report of the Gloucester
Election Committee, which stated that W. P. Price and C.
J. Monk had not been duly elected ; that the last election
was a void election ; that Mr. Price and Mr. Monk had, by
their agents, been guilty of bribery (several instances of
which were stated), but it did not appear that such bribery
was committed with the knowledge of Mr. Price and Mr.
Monk ; that corrupt practices extensively prevailed at the
last election for the city of Gloucester.
IRISHMEN AND IRISH OFFICERS.
Mr. SCULLY said that he would next session move a
resolution expressing the opinion of the house that it was
not politic or just to exclude native born Irishmen from the
position of Cabinet Ministers, and from the offices of lord-
lieutenant of Ireland, chief secretary of Ireland, under secre-
tary of Ireland, commander of the forces in Ireland, inspec-
tor-general of Irish constabulary, and chief commissioner
far the administration of poor laws in Ireland. (Laughter.)
And he should also move as a separate, distinct, and inde-
pendent motion—(laughter)
The SPEAKER—The hon. member can only give no-
tice of one motion.
ELECTION PETITIONS.
Mr, JAMES gave notice that he should next session
move for leave to introduce a bill giving power to committees
to give costs against unsuccessful parties, and also against
persons who presented petitions against members of the
house and afterwards withdrew them. (Hear, hear.)
THE EMANCIPATION ACT.
Mr. SCULLY gave notice that he should also move next
session that it was not consistent with the true spirit of the
Roman Catholic Relief Act of 1829 that Roman Catholics
should remain from that time to the present altogether ex-
cluded front the Imperial PolitWiN MO from the local go-
vernment of Ireland,
THE WAKEFIELD ELECTION PETITION.
In reply to Col. SMYTH,
Mr, MbNSELL said he had moved that the report of
the proceedings be laid on the table of the house, but he
thought it would be premature on his part, till the house
had an opportunity of considering the evidence, to express
an opinion as to the adoption of ulterior measures with re-
gard to the Wakefield petition. (Hear.)
THE BARRACKS AT ALDERSHOTT.
In reply to Mr. BRADY,
Mr. S. HERBERT stated that it was the intention to
light the the barracks with gas, but not the camp, and for
that purpose works would be erected.
PLURALITY OF OFFICES.
In reply to Mr. BRADY,
Mr. FORTESCUE said it was quite true that Captain
Bennett, the emigration agent in Glasgow, had been for
some time at Aldershott, but not for 12 months. There was
an efficient substitute at Glasgow, and the public had not
suffered. However, there was some irregularity in the mat-
ter and it had been intimated to Captain Bennett that if he
did not attend to his emigration duties, he would be called
on to choose between the two offices.
METAL CASING OF SHIPS.
Sir J. PAKINGTON wished to ask the Secretary to the
Admiralty what progress had been made with the experi-
ments of the effects of artillery on metal casing of ships,
which were directed by the late Board of Admiralty, and
what steps it was intended to take for the fulfilment of the
intentions of the late board to order the construction of a
second man of war covered with iron ?
Lord C. PAGET said he was sorryto say that some delay
had occurred in carrying out the experiments. The firm
that were to send in plates of various sorts had only just sent
them in, and consequently the experiments had been much
delayed. They would now, however, be proceeded with im-
mediately, but they could not order a second iron ship till
they knew the result of the first experiments.
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH ROME.
On the motion for the adjournment of the house,
Mr. SCULLY wished to ask the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether the sovereign of the Roman States had finally
accepted or declined the position of president over the con-
federated states of Italy; and whether, in the event of the
sovereign pontiff accepting that office, it was intended on
the part of her Majesty's Government to adopt effectual
steps for establishing direct diplomatic relations with the
court of Rome.
Lord PALMERSTON said that if he were to answer
the question then, he could not speak again on the present
motion.

HYDE-PARK.

In reply to Mr. W. EWART,
Mr. FITZROY said that two years ago complaints were
made against allowing cows to roam unrestrictedlyover the
park, and it was for the convenience of the public that rails
had been erected, which confined the cows within narrower
limits. If the public w, ished that they should be allowed to
roam at large he would make arrangements to meet the
public convenience. .
LANDED ESTATES COURTS.

Mr. GRIFFITH wished to ask the Chief Secretary for
Ireland whether a memorial had been received from Mr.
Wrenfordsley, solicitor of Dublin, applying for compensa-
tion, on the plea of having suggested that the Landed
Estates Courts in Ireland should be made self-supporting ;
and whether it was the intention of the Irish Government
to recommend such claim to the Treasury for considera-
tion?

Mr. VANCE considered the gentleman was entitled to
some compensation for the pains he had taken in bringing
forward his plan. He disapproved of the system of the rates
of poundage ; the effect of which was to keep largo estates
out of the court, and he hoped a change would be made. '
Mr. CARDWELL said the court had been in existence too
short a time to admit of any return of the poundage. The
gentleman referred to had not made any application to him.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.
Mr. CROSS wished to know what were the intentions of
the Government with regard to the Church-rates Bill,which
stood amongst the orders for that evening. He trusted it
would not be brought on at two o'clock in the morning. He
had given notice of certain amendments similar to those
approved of by the Government in 1856, and on which the
house had never pronounced an opinion. Unless when the
bill came on the Government were prepared to state their
views with regard to them, he would oppose the further
progress of the bill that evening.
THE DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY.
Mr. BENTINCK said the question of which he had given
notice involved considerations of such importance that he
should ask the indulgence of the house for a few moments in
prefacing it with some observations. He admitted it rested
solely on the ground of rumour. The noble lord might refuse
to answer a question founded on rumour, but the matter in-
volved so much, not merely the honour and dignity but the
very existence of this country, that he feltj ustified in bringing
it forward, and pressing the Government tor a clear and con-
clusive answer. He was sure hon. members would acquit
him of any party motive, bift he could not ignore the history
of the past. At the commencement of the Crimean war they
had a coalition Government, including the two noble lords
opposite and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer,
and characterised by the same composite character as the
present. That Government attempted to carry on the war
with a peace establishment. The result was the loss of a
large number of valuable lives, and a subsequent wasteful
expenditure of public money. Looking to the composition
of the present Government, it became the imperative duty
of the house to ascertain what conduct they intended to
pursue with regard to the armaments, more especially the
naval armaments, of' the country. Since he had given his
notice an announcement had been made which rendered it
still more important to have a clear and distinct answer. It
was announced that the Emperor of the French intended to
' commence a system of disarmament, and the consequence
h
was at once a sees of articles congratulating this country
on being able to cease its exertions. The fact that the
French Government was about to reduce its armaments
was no reason for any reduction in the armaments of this
country. (Hear, hear.) -Whatever might be the reduction
of the Frenbh army, it was the duty of the Government to
continue their exertions until the defences of the country,
both naval and military, were placed in a more efficient state
than they had yet attained. (Hear, hear.) Suppose the
Emperor of the French should say to the Government " I
am about to reduce my army." (He would put a case to
show there was no parity between the armaments of the
two countries.) " I intend to reduce my forces ; I intend
to reduce my army by 100,000 men, and I call on you in
fairness to do the same." What would be the result? The
Emperor would be left with 500,000. men, but this country
would be Left with nothing. (Hear. hear.) So far for the
military force. The disparity in the positions of the two
countries with reference to their naval forces was still
stronger. There was no parity between the two countries
as to the amount of naval forces they required for their de-
fence.
France had no demands on her for the defence of
distant and extensive colonies, any naval force she kept up
must be solely for the purpose of home defence, or in war
of foreign akgression. The position of this country obliged
her to furnish a large force for the colonies before she could
spare a ship for home defence. Again, suppose a proposi-
tion was made for a naval disarmament and acceded to, and
each country paid off 20 line-of-battle ships, what would be
the result ? France could recruit these men again in 48
hours, (Hear.) It was merely placing more ships in ordinary
and landing the seamen until a telegraphic message called
them together again , but in this country, if a ship was paid
off, re-assembling the men was a question of months, and
almost of years. He trusted that no proposition for a dis-
armament would be accepted, and that no reduction would
be made in the navy merely because of proposals to dis-
arm. There was no parity in the positions of the two coun-
tries ; in France, after paying
as ever, but here it was otherwise, and if such a proposal
were accepted it would place this country at the mercy of
France or any other aggressor for
the men were as available
for many years to come, He
should like to know from the bin. member for Birmingham
what would become of the commerce of the country if she once
lost the supremacy of the seas? He would be glad to know how
our commerce was to be supported without a navy. It had
lately been suggested that Government should propose to the
Emperor of France to make a
mutual disarmament; ho
was informed the suggestion had already been acted on.
He believed his information was correct, but he left it to
the house to Judge of the story. At the time of the fetes
of Cherbourg a very distinguished person, fully qualified
to do so, made a suggestion to the Emperor like that now
recommended to the Government. The answer of the Em-
peror was, that he considered he was the best judge of
what was required for the well-being and welfare of France ;
P:vriaismin'ot what he meant, but 50 of the
have 50 of the best screw lint-of-battle ships that could be
built. He referred to some ships then in the French ports,
her Welfare required that she should
modern and best Construction. He added that, if he might
' offer a suggestion to England, he would say she ought to
100 ine-of-battle ship ut,
-S be construction ; he
have
believed that would be the best chance of maintaining a
tahnadt,sainwhtihsaot
and lasting peace between the two countries. He
long
(Mr. Bentinck) gave the statement as he heard it; he be-
lieved it to be trne. helieyed nothing, would be more
fatal to the interests of the Country than to reduce the
most
naval defences. (ll,ear.) Ho had put his notice on te
top.; would give
r ta
1?-er t m
FR° in the hope that o , •
their views, and that they igh have scene clear and dis-
oilet assurance that there was no intention to reduce

MY 801 • 1859,

naval armaments. He begged to ask the First Lord II
the Treasury whether there was any intention on the part
of her Majesty's Government to reduce the naval arrna-
ment of the country ?
Mr. CONINGHAM said that one of the most effectual
modes of providing for the defence of the country would be
to establish liberal constitutions in the northern states of
Italy. (A laugh.)
Mr. LINDSAY.wouId wish to put the question to the
nebie lord in a different shape, as he supposed his conduct
would be guided by what were the real intentions of France.
He considered there was a great deal of false economy in
allowing the defences of the country to fall as low as they
had been. (Hear, hear.) The mere rumour of an invasion
produced such a difference in the exchanges that the loss
to the country was far more than was required to
keep the navy in an efficient state. (Hear, hear.)
It was reported that France intended to reduce her naval
armaments. As to her army it was different ; she might say
the army was not to meet England, but Austria, Prussia,
and Russia - but as to the navy, that was to meet England
and if the imperor was prepared to reduce his navy he
trusted the noble lord would consider whether the present
expenditure could not be checked. A bill introduced that
morning by the Secretary of the Admiralty would involve an
additional £600,000. If France made the first move he
trusted the noble lord would meet the proposal in the same
spirit in which it was made.
Lord LOVAINE reminded the house that when ships
were paid off in this country the men were all dismissed,
there was no reserve of seamen; but in France the men were
merely placed in barracks, and, if required, the ships could
be fitted out and the men placed on board almost before the
troops which were to embark in them could be got together.
-He trusted there would be no reduction in the naval force
until they had an absolute pledge from France, not only that
she would pay off her ships, but also that she would not
build any more. That would be the only way to get security
against unpleasant results. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY expressed his cordial sympathy in the
views of the hon. member for West Norfolk, -Unless the
navy was maintained in an efficient state, the country never
would be safe. It was very well for the Emperor to talk of
reducing ; it meant nothing but putting a few ships in ordi-
nary, and placing their crews at the naval depots, where they
were available at a moment's notice. He had had the honour
of serving in the Black Sea fleet; no vessels were ever better
manned ; but where were the men now Some had entered
the American service, some were in Australia, others in
whalers. In consequence of the reduction at the end of the
war they were obliged to seek employment where they could,
and if they were now wanted to man the fleet, they could
not be got. It took a long time to make a sailor ; mere
pluck and willingness were not enough, (Hear.) The navy
ought to be maintained at a sufficient force without regard.
-to that of any other State, and he trusted they would re-
ceive some satisfactory assurance from the Government on
the subject.
Mr. S. BOOTH considered that such discussions did not
at all tend to the credit of the house, or become the dignity
of the country. (Hear,) If the Government was fit to
conduct the business of the country under present circum-
stances, this question of her defences ought to be left in
their hands. The constant repetition of these alarms in the
house only increased the agitation in the country.
Mr. H UTT wished to know whether the report of the
Commission on Dockyard Expenditure, appointed by the
late First Lord of the Admiralty, would be laid on the table
before the close ef the session. He understood it had been
in the hands of the Admiralty for some time.

Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. and learned friend
the member for Cork will understand why I did not answer
his question at the moment. I saw there was another ques
tion on the paper to be put to me, and I thought it better to
wait as I could only speak once. My hon. and learned
friend asked me whetherthe Sovereign of the Roman States
has finally accepted or declined the position of President over
the Confederated States of Italy; and whether, in the event
'of the Sovereign Pontiff accepting that office, it was intended
on the part of her Majesty's Government to adopt effectual
steps for establishing direct diplomatic relations with the
Court of Rome. As to the first question, I really am not
competent to give an answer, because as yet no confedera-
tion has been formed, and we are not in such a positionwith
the Pope as would induce him to give us an intimation as
to what his intentions may be. I would refer ray hon. and
learned friend to the hon, and learned member for Dundalk,
who is much more likely to be in the confidence of his Holi-
ness. As to the second question, whether in the event of
the confederation we intended to establish diplomatic rela-
tions with the Pope as the head of it ; if such a confedera-
tion was established we would, no doubt, have diplomatic
relations with the diet which would represent it, as we have
diplomatic relations with the German Confederation. Our
representative is accredited to the diet quite independent of
any diplomatic relations we may have with the sovereigns
who constitute the confederation. It may be as well, per-
haps, that I should state what is the law with regard to
diplomatic relations with the Pope. It will be in the re-
collection of the house that some years ago an act was
passed enabling her Majesty to enter into diplomatic rela-
tions with the Pope. In the upper house a clause was in-
serted, preventing her Majesty from receiving an eccle-
siastic as his representative; the Court of Rome chose to
consider this as a bar to the establishment of diplomatic
relations with the Court of Great Britain. The Govern-
ment of Prussia, which is a Protestant country; and of
Russia, which is non-Catholic, decline to receive at their
courts any ecclesiastic as representative of the Pope. I do
not know the reason, whether it is the law or otherwise,
but still such is the practice on their part, and I confess I
do not understand why the Pope should make a distinction
between England on one hand, and Russia and Prussia on
the other, and should require us to repeal a law before he
would do for us what he does for them. It is true he does
not send representatives to Berlin or St. Petersburg ; yet
he receives their representatives at Rome. With regard
to the question of the hon. member for West Norfolk, I
might simply content myself with saying at once that the
answer to his question must depend on a great variety of
circumstances, which in due time, and at the proper mo-
ment, it will be the duty of the Government to take into
deliberate consideration. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman
asked the First Lord of the Treasury whether there is any
intention on the part of her Majesty's Government to re-
duce the naval armament of the country. 'lf I were to say
that we have no intention to depart from the estimates pre-
pared by our predecessors, and which we have adopted,
that would be a sufficient answer. As to one ground on
which the hon. gentleman has put his question—viz., in
consequence of information having been received that
the Emperor of the French intends to make a reduction
in his naval and military establishments, and his assump-
tion that this information may be met by a corresponding
change on our part, I might put it to the honourable
gentleman that although such information may afford him
and other honourable members a `term ground for putting
forward their opinion, it would be somewhat prema •
ture to expect the Government—(hear, hear)—=to give any
information as to what course they may think it their duty
to adopt in consequence of an event which has not yet hap-
pened, and of which information has only been received
that it is intended to take place. I have no hesitation in
concurring in the principle which I understand has been
laid down, that it would be impossible for the Government
of this country to enter into any treaty with another coun-
try for the reduction of our naval and military establish-
ments in order to put our establishments upnn a footing to
be determined by the arrangements which another country
might think fit to make. (Hear, hear.) If there were but
two powers in the world—if you had but England and
France—l should say that even then it would be an ar-
rangement we could not enter into, because the interests of
England and France, the position which they have to main-
tain, are so entirely different, that no arithmetical arrange-
ment could be entered into that one country should make a
reduction simply because the other did so. But the house
will remember that there are other parties to be considered
besides England and France. There are powers with whom
we have, and I hope shall continue to have, friendly rela-
tions, but with whom those relations might alter. Hence
our naval and military armaments must depend not upon
any foreign power, but upon that which the responsible
Government of the day may from time to time consider to
be necessary for the safety of the country. Sir, I can say
no more than that. Of course, the duty of the overnment
is, while on the one hand it proposes to Parliament the es-
tablishments which it conscientiously believes to be neces-
sary for the public safety, on the other hand not to raise
false alarms `or to burden the country to a greater extent
than necessary. With regard to the question put by the
hon. gentleman, I am informed that the report to which he
alludes will be placed before Parliament in a few days.

_
CHURCH RATES.
Lord J. MANNERS said it was desirable to know what
was proposed to be dcne by the Government on the subject
of church rates.

Sir C. LEWIS said that all which the Government could
do was to give precedence, so far as possible, to all mattters
which must be disposed of before the end of session,
At a later period,
Mr. BOLDER° asked whether, if the Church Rate Bill
were brought on at a late hour, the Home Secretary would
move the amendment which stood en the paper in his name.
The hon. member was proceeding to discuss that amend.
ment when he was called to order by the SPEAKER.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that he believed his right hon,
friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department
would move his amendment if an opportunity offered. He
concurred with the hon. gentleman in the inexpediency, as
a general rule, of bringing on important questions late at
night. (Hear.)
THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS,

Mr. CAIRD asked the Under-Secretary of State for the
Colonies whether any new instructions were sent to Captain
Palliser on receipt of his report of October 7, 1558, inregard
to his further explorations along the American boundary line
and in the Rooky Mountains; and whether Captain Palli-
ser's journal had been received and would be printed. He
said that Captain Palliser had discovered a countrytowards
the range of those mountains which was most fertile, and
which promised to open up a most fertile track of land for
the purposes of this country. These explorations had not
been carried so far as they would have been, on account of
the want of funds. Now he trusted that no feelings of petty
economy would be allowed to stand in the way of further
explorations.
Mr. ELLICE said that no new discoveries had been
made by Captain Palliser, and:he hoped that no more money
would be wasted on this subject.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR quite differed from the right hon.
gentleman. He believed that Captain Palliser's discoveries
were fraught with interest of great value to the public. If
no new discovery had been made, certainly Captain Palli-
ser had for the first time made that public which was before
generally unknown. Within the last year Captain Palliser
had discovered four passes through the Rocky Mountains.
He hoped that the Government would turn their attention
to this subject.
Mr. BLACKBURN protested against the money of this
country being expended upon this subject.
Mr. C. FORTESCUE would not enter into all the
points which this question might give rise to. He would
assure the house that the Government would not expend
the money of this country on places which were destitue of
colonists. (Hear.) The report to which the hon. gentle-
man referred was received in January last, and at that time
a small sum only was asked by Captain Palliser, and that
amount had been sent to him. In answer to the question
of the hon. member he could only state that everything re-
ceived from Captain Palliser had been published.
RIFLED GUNS'
Mr. MONSE LL called the attention of the house to the
fact that a valuable invention in rifled guns had been made
by Mr. B. Briden, and that repeated trials of guns rifted
upon that plan had been made at Salisbury and elsewhere.
The great advantage of the plan consisted in its making a
bore of only 1,16 th of an inch ill the interior of the gun,
whereby no injury was done to its strength. He wished
to know whether in the rifle guns which were being made
Mr. Briden's invention had been used,
Mr. S. HERBERT said that many Ingenious plans had
been tjll}}htnitt64 to the eovernment for rifling guns, and
aniongst.them was that of Mr. Briden. These plans were
now the subject of experiment and inquiry, and witil these
f
experiments were concluded, tYeTt? N 10 o necessity be no
aßfiFer to 1114 right,h9p. Aiencri question. •
..*:'N4NES i(sked a question on the subject ofiuthcig

statistics, but the Home Secretary having already spoken
on this motion, no answer could be given.
The motion that the house at its rising adjourn to Mon-
day was then agreed to.

THE NATIONAL DEFENCES.
On the motio : r going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. HORSMAN, pursuant to notice, rose to propose a
motion as to the mode of providing for the expense of com-
pleting the necessaay works of national defence, projected
or already in progress. If any apology were required for the
motion he was about to submit, it would be found in the
preliminary discussion which had already taken place in the
house that evening. The question of the national defences
had only to be mentioned in that house to excite a feeling
of general interest, and he believed the feeling of that house
on the subject was a very inadequate representation of that
which preyailed throughout the country. (Hear.) They
had just been called on by Government to make a large in-
crease in the taxes of the year, and that was grounded on
the necessity of adding to our national defences. This year
our armaments would cost us £26,000,000, and in order to
meet that enormous outlay we should have to submit to an
augmentation of the most odious and exceptional of all our
imposts. In a time of profound peace we were about to
double the income tax nearly, and there was a general dis-
position to inquire whence the great exigency arose. It was
obvious that those great estimates were the result of some
great necessity, and were the evidence either of some ima-
gined or some concealed danger How long, he asked, was
that state of things to continue, and what was the proba-
bility of these estimates either being diminished or continu-
ing permanent in their present enormous size ? There was a
point at which inquiry on this subject became the duty of
Parliament, and when anything like reserve or concealment
on the part of the Government was fraught with danger
and involved a positive betrayal of the interests of the coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) There was always a disposition on
the part of the House of Commons to act with forbearance
in reference to all questions affecting international rela-
tions ; but there were occasions—and he believed this was
one—when it behoved the house to press the Government
of the day to speak out in plain and unmistakeable lan-
guage. All those armaments and that taxation originated
in one cause, namely, in an apprehension of some war or
some attack being directed against the country by France.
He need have. no hesitation in saying it, for all Europe
knew and said it. It was an indisputable fact that our
Minister at War was adding greatly to our defences, and
that our Minister of Finance was doubling our income-tax,
and all from an uneasiness caused by the circumstance that
the armaments of our nearest and dearest, our much lauded
and much trusted ally, had increased and were increasing,
and, notwithstanding the intimation in the Moniteur of
yesterday, with no immediate prospect of diminution.
Ought we not, he asked, to look our position boldly
and sensibly in the face, and really ascertain either
the necessity or the folly of the alarm ? If that uneasiness,
which was costing us so much, was unfounded, we ought to
be instantly relieved from sacrifices we were now called upon
to make ; but if there was anything like real danger in our
position not an hour should be lost in placing our security
beyond the possibility of question. It only remained for
the Government, like men, like Englishmen, like states-
men, to tell us so. Let them but say the word, that this
was an occasion for England to put forth some portion of
her latent strength, in order to overtake a march stolen
upon her, and the spirit of the nation, which would be in-
stantly aroused, would do all the rest. (Hear, hear.) At
such a time the real indiscretion, folly, reproach, and guilt
would be on the head of the Minister who, having bound-
less resources at his command, hesitated to employ them,
dissembling the danger until it was too late to avert it.
A rebuke had lately been administered from the Ministe-
rial side of the house to the press of this country, because,
in' expressing a feeling of misgiving occasioned by the
aspect of public affairs, it had used language alleged to be
offensive to our neighbours across the Channel. He was
one of those who, in common, he believed, with the great
majority of that house, had shared largely in the appre-
hensions which the public had lately expressed ; and he felt
gratitude to the press for the warnings it had sent forth,
(Hear, hear.) It was his good fortune recently to listen to
the speech of a venerable peer whose courageous exposition
of the national defences had created so much sensation, and
even with the fear of incurring rebuke, he could not refrain
from taking the most public opportunity of tendering his
thanks. (Cries of " Order, order," interrupted the sen -
tence before its conclusion.) He had made no allusi,m
to the place whete that speech was delivered. He ;sad
only referred to it as the speech of a peer. He asere-
fore submitted that he was in order, and he would take leave
to express his admiration of the wisdom and patriotism
by which that address was characterised—(hear)--speak-
intr, home, as it did, in much needful warning to the
hearts, sympathies, and convictions of, he believed, the
great majority of his countrymen from one 'end of the
kingdom to the other. (Cheers.) . But what did those arti-
cles in the English press and speeches such, as that really
imply ? Not fear of any enemy abroad but, of our own in-
capacity at home. (Hear.) It was not fear of France, but,
correctly translated, want of confidence iii our own depart-
ments in England. It was not that we dreaded plans of
attack from abroad, but that we had an uneasy feeling as to
the want of plans at home. (Hear.) The recollections of
the Crimea had sunk deeply into the national mind. They
had never been obliterated, and knowing how powerful and
invincible we were as a nation we were struck with terror,
not of those by whom we. might be invaded, but of those to
whom our defences might be committed. Again, if the lan-
guage of apparent hostility to France had caused so much
uneasiness, what was to be said of that language of compli-
ment and adulation of which this country had become some-
what ashamed ? There was no doubt the demeanour of some
of our public men towards the Emperor of the French
had lowered us abroad and sickened us at home while
it had provoked many of those counter demonstrations of
opinion which would not have been so frequent or so marked
had the public not felt that the honour and character of the
nation had been complimented away. (Hear.) The Em-
peror of the French had been our friend and ally. He was
a man of sense, and a man of business ; and our Ministers
ought to have said to him, "We cannot, without explana-
tion, allow you ander cover of the English alliance to make
such an enormous increase of your armaments—it is under
the cover of our alliance that this increase has taken place ;
you have never ceased to make professions of peace and
friendship towards this country ; but, for some time past,
we have found it difficult to reconcile those professions with
the enormous preparations you have been making for war ;
increased armaments ought to be resorted to only in time of
danger; the attitude you will shortly assume will be one of
menace, and in that case it is evident we shall NM cease to be
allies ; either you must give us the assurance that you will
desist from these menacing preparations or we shall be
under the alternative of girding up our loins and making
preparations for whatever may occur." (Hear, hear.) This
language would have been better and more appropriate than
the perpetual use of diplomatic compliments, which had not
raised us in the estimation of foreign countries, and which
was distasteful to our own people. (Hear.) The probability
was that two or three years ago the enormous preparations
which gave us now so much uneasiness—which financially
at least was so heavily felt—would have been departed from,
or at least we should have known what other alternative we
had to contemplate, (Hear, hear.) Our Ministers would only
have had to take the alternative that lay before us, and the
country would at once have been stimulated into activity
and liberality ; if it was felt that danger was reallyintminent
we should in a very short time have been placed in such a
state of security as to render us impervious to fear, and to
cause the idea of invasion to be received only with a smile.
(Hear.) At the eleventh hour, however, the necessity for in-
creasing our defences was proclaimed by the increased esti-
mates which the house had this year been asked to vote.
But it was to be deplored that they wore meeting that neces-
sity with half measures, and he felt bound to say that, for
purposes of national defence, half measures were no mea-
sures at all—to be serviceable they must be complete.
(Haan) They were engaged on permanent works of na-
tional defence. These were very costly, but the result was
veryunsatisfactory. Our arsenals were entirely undefended;
our shipping, in ease of war, had no shelter for their protec-
tion or repair. The necessary works were planned, but the
money to complete them was got in driblets. It was distri-
buted over so many works, and spent through such a series
of years that in the meantime we were utterly defenceless.
(Hear.) He had hi his hand a few items taken from the
estimates for the year for these public works. The first
work he found was that of Devonport. The cost of these for-
tifications was estimated at £457,500; and the sum voted
this year was £86,000. This was one of the most necessary
and urgent works that had been undertaken, but according
to the present rate of payment it would take four years
to complete it. That was on the supposition that the
estimate was correct, for, as the house knew, it frequently
happened that the expenditure was rather in excess of the
estimate. (Hear.) The next place was Dover. The esti-
' mated cost of the fortifications here was £311,000. There
had been already voted £133,000, and the vote this year
was £26,000. To complete these fortifications would take a
period of seven years, Alderney was next on the list. The
I estimated cost was £200,000; last year £15,000 was voted,
leaving £185,000 still to be granted. To complete these
works would.take no less than 12 years. (Hear.) Then
there was Pembroke, with the sea defences of Milford
Haven. The estimated sum for the works was £190,000.
There had been voted £25,000 this year ; £165,000 still re-
mained to be voted, and it would take six or seven years to
complete the works. Portsmouth works were estimated at
£300,000 ; this year £65,003 was voted, and it would take
31 years to finish the undertaking. The Hilsea Lines were
estimated at £135,000. A sum of £65,000 had been voted
this year, and 3i years would be required to complete the
works. The Southsea line was put down at £30,000 in at
supplementary estimate; £3,000 had been voTtle,
would take nine years to complete the works.
would take six
£20,000. They had voted £7,000, and itStokes
Bay Bay line was estimated in a supplementary estimate at
Butthe most years more to finish the undertaking.
bpeorretd-
how the Secretary for War spoke.o
extra-
ordinary case was that of Portlandf
thTehi
twas that it was one of
land. His statement regarding i emypoalrltanreniceeomf
possession of the
if an enemy were to take _..
fenceless ; that
great difficulty in dislodging him—
the finest harbours in the world, but:that it was utterly de-
island we should have
the defences would be so
but that when completed
everybody knew that
impossible that Portland should ever
tohauatyt,heworks required could be executed very economi-
cally, as to make it
mnementy; bNutow what must be the feel-
ing• ster who made that statementwhen
he re-
flected of the Minister who
to the rate of the vote taken this
tfahlaltinwtaosthaevheryandfasirofsantatee
that, according . _
year
h r ) He might rest his case on that
years would be required to complete the works at
21
ea .
Portland ? (Hear,
instance alone, for it was impossible that any Minister who
had made the house conscious of the importance of such a
work could contemplate with anything like equanimity the
idea that 21 years would be required to complete them—
(hew)—but there were other cases—such as the defences of
commercial harbours—to which he would refer the house.
Even with regard to Gibraltar and Malta a strong case
could be made out, for it would take four years to bring
the defences of the latter place to an end. (Hear.) There
were other works not in the estimates which the Govern-
ment must feel to be imperatively called for. He would
take the case of Woolwich as an example. The amount of
property in our arsenals there could not be less than
£10,000,000 to £15,000,000 ; and it was perfectly defence-
less, not a single shilling of public money ever having been
voted 'for fortifications at Woolwieh. (Hear, hear.) He
assumed that the works to which he had referred' were all
necessary, because, with the exception of Woolwich, they
had all been approved by Parliament, and money had been
voted towards them. He was far from saying that it was
necessary that these works should be completed according
to the plans and estimates laid before the house. That was a
question that would come under the consideration of the
Royal' Commission to be nominated at the instance of his
hon. and gallant friend (Sir Do L. Evans). In fact, the
appointment of that cm:emission was necessary to :arty
out the object of his ova). motion if the house should agree
to it, If
tout its recora-
Is most valuable, and the money to carry
ss flat committee were well selected, its report would
o

mendations would no doubt be most ungrudgingly and un-
hesitatingly provided. It would not do for Government in
such a case to tell the house that England could not afford
to spent] whatever sum that commission might think ne-
cessary for the national defences. The safety of England
was too precious not to be insured at any price • and the
only question was how the money, was to be goi. There
was no member of that house who would not .scout the
idea of consenting to a. loan for the purpose of the ordi-
nary expenditure of the country, but the question was
whether this was part of the ordingry expenditure of the
country. (Hear, hear.) It was expenditure which was
taking place in anticipation of a possible war. It was not
occasioned by a belief that any foreign Power at present en-
tertained or, he, hoped, would for a long time entertain, any
idea of invading England;, but we knew not how suddenly
such a war might arise, and if it broke out and found us
unprepared and defenceless we should not be safe for a
single day. Hitherto the plan had been to spread this expen-
diture over a series of years, but the general opinion of the
house, and he believed also that of the Governinent, now
was that it ought to be compressed within a limited period.
If these *orks were to be of any use they ought to be com-
pleted at, once; and if the expenditure intended to be that
of a series of years was compressed into two or three, it be-
came an extraordinary expenditure, and must be met by
extraordinary means. (Hear, hear.) You could not meet
it out *of the ordinary income of the (, hear.)
You must therefore either complete these works by means
of a loan or leave them unfinished. That was an alternative
which the house could hot avoid. , (Hear, hear.) Some gen-
tlemen thought that his object in bringing forward this mo-
tion was to obtain the establisbnaent pf a line of forts along
the whole of our coasts, so as to prevent the possibility of a
landing being effected by an invading army. Instead of this
he wentrather into the opposite extreme, and thought that
such an expenditure would be perfectly absurd, and indeed a
complete waste of money. (Hear, hear.) Our expenditure
ought to be limited to two objects. We ought to provide
defences for our shipping and our arsenals His object was
merely that, as certain plans had been approved by Govern-
ment, sanctioned by Parliament, and the works already
commenced, we should obtain the money required, and com-
plete at once operations which would otherwise be spread
over a number of years. (Hear, hear.) It had also been
supposed that he wished to borrow money to pay some part
of the expense of our military said naval establishments.
Nothing could be more absurd. The only objection which
he had heard to the raising of this large sum of money, in
order that these works might 'be completed within a certain
time, was that if so great an amount was at once placed at
the disposal of the Government there would be an enormous
quantity of jobbery and waste. , His;own opinion was that
this was a very absurd objection, and he was sure that he
might safely leave it tb—be. dealt with by his right hon.
friend the Secretary of State , for War, who would hardly.
admit that, although his department • could control the ex-
penditure 'of £2,000,000 over that
it cOO
,0 no
efficient superintendence over that of £6,000,000. It was
the more necessary that the money required for this expen-
, diture should be raise:] as he proposed, be
for some
time, at least, the ordinary military and naval expenditure
of the country would absorb all that portion of the income
which could possibly be devoted to it. He was not able to
comprehend the logic of the statement made by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer the other night, that it matters did
not get worse in the course of next year they would pro-
bably get better. His belief was that, so far as a diminu-
tion of expenditure went, they could not get better, as long
as we acknowledged our obligation to keep the navy of
England up to an adequate strength. The superiority of
our fleet—he would not say our supremacy at sea, as that
might be objected to as implying rather a bellicose spirit
—was as essential to our commerce as were the ships
which carried :it. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with what
was said by an hon. member early that evening, that the
superiority of our navy was rendered absolutely neces-
sary by the superiority of our colonial and commercial
interests. (Hear, hear.) The superiority of our fleet at sea
had hitherto been the first necessity of our empire; It had
been considered the first law of our existence as a great Eu-
ropean Power. Other Powers had great military establish-
met ntsthat . Th
we CharAnel was our natural defence;_ and if we
,shesild at once lose our position in Europe as a
first-rate Power. (Hear, hear.) . From the time that En-
land first became a great maritime Power, her superiority g
at
sea was never Vest until the close of the Crimean war. That
it should then have been lost was a-great misfortune and a
great niistsale. (Hear.) It was much to the honour of gen-
tlemen. opposite that they endeavoured—and successfully en-
deavo-ared—to re-establish the navy of England in the posi-
tion, which it ought to hold ; and no Government would
de serve a moment's forbearance which did not strain every
nerve to make it the most powerful navy in the world.
(Hear, hear.) During the discussion upon the navy esti-
mates last year, he expressed an opinion in which he was fol-
lowed by the gallant admiral the member for Southwark
that the navy of England ought to be equal to the navies of
France and Russia united. (Hear, hear.) To his great satis-
faction the noble lord at the head of the Government had the
other night endorsed that sentiment. I twas an opinion which
was becoming very general in that house ; but, unfortunately,
the equality which he desired was not very easily obtained.
Russia had lately been building in the United States large
ships of war, some of which were already completed. France
had got a-head of us, and was making every effortto preserve
that start. While we were only experimenting she had
already got iron-cased vessels, armed with rifled artillery—
(" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier)—and could at short
notice bring into the Channel a fleet more powerful than
ours, and could man it more easily with practised seamen.
It was admitted that if unfortunately a naval engagement
between the fleets of the two Powers should take place its re-
sult might be doubtful. Ifits results were in favour of France,
if she could blockade or destroy the remainder of the fleet,and
our defences were incomplete, England would become part
of the main land of the Continent, and France with the
command of the communications could transport a fleet
across the Channel as easily as she could send it across the
line. Suppose such a thing occurred--and he was speaking
of what might happen 10 or 20 years;hence, a short period in
the lives of such nations as England and France—we should
have to depend upon our land force. What was that ? Here,
again, everybody felt that we were the victims of half.
measures. Every one knew that if in any future war that
might occur a French general were to land in England, he
would bring with him every soldier for whom transport
could be found. It would be for invaders and invaded a life
and death struggle. That army would leave its own ports
an exultant and, by anticipation, a victorious army. From
the moment it landed in England it would have to fight its
way with the desperation of a forlorn hope, and within two
or three weeks of the landing of the first zouave either it
would be completely annihilated or London would be taken.
It would be less a war than a surprise, and its suddenness
would be one element in the calculation of its success.
What force had we, what preparations had we to meet such
a danger as this ? We all knew that it was very inadequate.
We ought to have one of two forces, either a standing army
equal to any which could be brought to invade us, or a large
auxiliary force of militia and volunteers. But could anybody
say that we had either, or were likely to have either ?
Lately we had had a movement for the establishment of
rifle corps. They were set on foot by the late Government,
and finding them very popular the present Government was
obliged to take them up, but still had extended to them but
a very chill support. (Hear.) So great, in fact, were the dif-
ficulties thrown in the way by routine and red-tape that it
seemed as though the Horse Guards and the War-office would
preferto see the country conquered by the old methods rather
than saved by any perilous modern innovations. (Hear.) In
1803 we had 400,000 volunteers and militia under arms, and
even then we thanked our stars for, the Channel, which
was our best defence. (Hear, hear.) Napoleon, it was well
known, regretted to his dying day that he had not at-
tempted to invade England, for he made but light of the
forces he would have to meet had he once landed. In our
days we had no such volunteer force. We might have rifle
corps, but it did not appear as though we had rifles to arm
them, for he had heard lately that a large contract entered
into with a Belgian house for rifles had been annulled on
account of some slight extra sum demanded by the contrac-
tors, so that we were altogether left without the arms for
which a short time ago there was thought to be an urgent
necessity. He hoped, however, to hear this report contra-
dicted by the Secretary for War. But when we saw how
inadequate were our defences--whether [naval, military, or
irregular—we could no longer wonder at the feeling ofdis-
quietude which had sprung up, not so much from fear of
danger from abroad as from the state of unreadiness and
non-preparation in which we were at home. (Hear hear.)
such a state that she would be entirely out of the reach
far
We ought not to lose one moment in' putting England in
any hostile attack. (Hear.) War everybody hoped was
country into that perfect state of defence
Everyln publicw and
distant ; but we ought to employ the interval in puhilo'nhgsthhee
ought always to be in time of peace..
every
workman and artificer ought to be se
in our present state of
extra hours. As long as we were
every private yard ought to be put inttotoacwtiovirkty,
insecurity we ought to act as though the crisis were_ upon
us. ;and at
h at home we ought to
could not make rifles fast enoug
without troublng
renew our contracts with foreign houses,
d 6d extra per
us. The volunteer corps ought to be encouraged, di
rifle. The work of manufacturing,
I.lunlit to be pushed on until Eng-
landing and drilling, o
placed in that state of security as never
ourselves whether they might demcoannstruct..mg,
recruit.
de-
grading, nay, even dangerous
all this was foolishness—(" hear,
again wasto be liable tooneofpauttorof hinuvmusillioanth.igif
Many
ypersons might think that
plkrrers.muCgobdheins)—opbinuitonridoicnulethiwsousludhjneoctt. detelrt
was very much to be regretted that on a matter of such
hhiemar,ir
deep interest, where the feelings and judgment of all men
ofmromex
ought to be considered, our highest military authorities, our
most experienced diplomatists, and our most venerable and
wisest statesmen could not use that liberty of speech which
was tho birthright of us all, without being exposed to an
amount of ridicule and derision which was wholly unde-
served. (Hear, hear.) He had no fault to find with any
private member responsible for his own opinions only ;
taking this view of the questitn, the hon. member for Bir-
mingham, for instance, had a perfect right to express his
belief that there was no Zouave in the French army who
would not prefer a remission of the wine duties to the sack
of London ; but it was a very different thing when a Mi-
nister of the Crown rising after him expressed such a con-
currence in his views as to lead the hon. member to congra-
tulate his friends on gaining over so distinguished a convert
to their views. The country, however, was not converted to
those views, and it would watch with great alarm the con-
version of the Government to them. (Hear, hear.) He and
others who thought with him had been content to refrain
from any public statement of the reasons for their disquie-
tude—but when they were told on the highest authority
that the Ministers of the Crown were become members of
the Peace Society they felt bound to protest against the
progress of those views—to state the reasons for their appre-
hensions, and to justify those reasons. He had never uttered
a word in disparagement of the Emperor of the French, for
he had always formed a different estimate of his character
from that usually formed in this country. The Emperor
found France in a state of anarchy, and he
re-
re-establiishrec!
order. Before he appeared on the stage everybody believed
that France must go through a fierce sanguinary
econvul-
sion, but he carried her through the crisis at a smaller cost
.
than anybody believed possible, and grateful Francea
warded him with the throne. She believed him her bene-
factor,hnile
military
Between him and his people
glory beyond her frontiers.
given her
re
peace chose
and him
prosperity
for
sphereirty sovereign, and anandd
there was a accord, which
clactriticism, was at least
h gh with the domestic
removed from censure. B
must have no concern, it was our drity
affairs of France we
if asked why, with hises-
timation her foreign policy, and ,
if not entirely shuctom out from
to watch muaftnordteignou
of an invasion, he was driven to assis.va as a
possibility
fact which was notorious to everybody Vero and in
of the character of the Emperor, he beheved,,n the
reason a
France. He believed in the possilaility of a war w ith France
at some future time because he eaw that the EmDeror him-
self believed in that possibility 4.'rom the preparat4 ,ons he had
made. He believed that if a war broke out 'sr, attempted
invasion of England would bo one of the fir at. steps in that
war. As they saw unmistakeable proofs or preparation for
war, every man who was not wilfully blir id
must see that.
there were unmistakeable preparations fo• making that wars
if it took place, more formidable by insn
asion. He knew it
might be said that it was an insult to ' the Emperor to sus-
pect such an intention, but he could o,
al say that he did not
insult any man by believing that s. J
possible which he had.
himself openly, publicly, and ostar
siatiously told them,

*:',l"'7n*

•
might probably do. - (Hear.) No man who had ever been
raised to a throne had taken more pains than the Emperor
of the French to advertise to the world what he believed to
be his future destiny and its fruits. The Emperor was a man
of thought before he was a man of action ; as they had been
told last night, he was an author before he became an Em
peror ; and, after he had attained ripe age, after long study
and reflection, he gave to the world, in works of deep thought
and intense feeling, a programme of his opinions and his
policy. Whether dating from London, or from his prison
a Ham, or pleading for life before his peers in France, he
gave earnest of that which he had since proved himself be-
fore the world, as a man of strong purpose and inflexible
will. The dream of the exile, the prayer of the captive, the
address of the candidate for power, all betrayed one
recollection, and all pointed to one day of national
retribution. They all repeated that one word which,
he said, no Frenchman could utter without emotion ; and
since he became Emperor of France he had, almost con-
stantly, inspired his army with the belief that he and they
had one common commission unfulfilled, until by a last,
great, glorious enterprise they had effaced the stain of
France's deepest humiliation and her most dire despair. He
did not wish to say one word in disparagement of the illus-
trious ruler of the French nation, who could not be offended
at our accepting as true what he had himself avowed with
pride. It might be said that he (Mr. Horsman) was repeat-
ing an old story ; but he might remind hon. gentlemen that
the works to which he had referred had recently been re-
produced in France, and had been revised and republished
under the authority of the Emperor himself. They were
extensively circulated and widely read in France, and what
was the effect they produced upon the French people
e?
Why, they could only be regarded as a re-affirmation on the
part of the Emperor of the policy of the exile. Theydaeffnabled
the key to what would otherwise be a mystery, ati
people to interpret what would otherwise be
extension of the unuttelligible
namely, that these vast preparations, the
navy, the fortification of the coast, tad nl
the conscription
preparation for a gigantic enter-
the marine, all indicated
prise to be undertaken some day or another against a gigan-
tic naval power, and that rower need not be named. The
English were a practical and businesslike people, and when
they had these writings, which had been lately reproduced
aid circulated, and when they saw the enormous military
and naval preparations which were made in France, it was
no wonder that they should ask, " Are we in that state of
perfect security and defence in which we ought to be
even in times of peace ? " He repeated again that, in
making this statement, he did not say one word against
a ruler of whom he had never spoken disparagingly,
nor did he say a word against that great and gallant
people ; whom all who knew them must admire ; but he
did say that they must look forward—as was quite
consistent with the most honourable policy—to some
future occasion when war might break out, and these
preparations were made in order that they might not a
second time be the vanquished party. He need scarcely
refer to what was, he believed, a notorious fact, with regard
to which her Majesty's Ministers were no doubt fully in-
formed that since the conclusion of the peace of Villafranca
so far from the activity apparent in the naval arsenals of
France having been at all relaxed, it had certainly, until
within the last 24 hours, been very much on the increase.
Yesterday the noble lord,l after making his statement with
reference to Italian affairs, drew the attention of the house
to the announcement which had just been made in the
Afoniteur. Now, no one would wish to diminish the im-
portance—whatever it might be—of that announcement, but
he might observe that if both England and France had had
war establishments, or if the British Government had been
making preparations in anticipation of an immediate pros-
pect of war, the announcement of a reduction of the mili-
tary force of France might have been very important to this
country. What he maintained, however, and what he had
endeavoured to enfore upon the house was, that the arma-
ments of France were as much above the requirements of a
peace establishment as those of England were below them—
(hear)—that we had reduced our establishments to a danger-
ous point ; and that, whatever might be done by foreign
Governments, there was a certain minimum of power below
which this country ought never to allow its defences to fall.
(Hear, hear.) In a time of profound peace, and in a spirit
of over-confidence in the continuance of that peace, this
country had, in his opinion, allowed her defences to all to
too low a point. They had fallen far below the require-
ments of a peace establishment, and when he looked back to
their condition when the mutiny broke out in India, he
must say it was fortunate that at that time it never entered
into the mind of any enemy to take adventage of the
position of this country. For years past we had been pro-
ceeding with dangerous reductions, we had now fallen far
below the minimum point, and all he wished the house
to do was to raise our defences to that minimum point
below which, even in a !time of peace, they ought
never to be allowed to fall. He was aware that son2e hon.
friends of his, whose opinions he valued very highly, would
think that these precautions and forebodings deserved very
little regard. No man could admire, and respect, and
honour more than he did the motives and principles of thoge
who were designated, invidiously in his opinion, to distin-
guish them from the rest of the house, as the " Peace
party ;" but while, on the one hand, they honestly and
conscientiously followed their vocation, he must say, on the
other hand, that he believed if their views were carried be-
yond a certain practical point they were dangerous to the
country. His feeling was that the men who, by timely
warning and precaution, averted the horrors and calamities
of a warlike attack were the real friends of humanity and
of their species—(hear)—while the men who by blindness,
by over confidence. or by weakness, tempted and provoked
attack were, although unconsciously, the real enemies and
destroyers of their country. He believed that if the prin-
ciples of the party to which he was referring were carried
out to their full extent this country would be placed in such
a state of weakness that invasion would be rendered so
tempting as to be inevitable. He believed there was no
statesman, no diplomatist, no military man in Europe—
there was not a soldier in France who did not feel that it
depended on England herself whether at some future—and
it was to be hoped, far distant day—all that accumulation
of the elements of destruction might not break upon her
head ; and woe to her if the storm found her unprepared ;
woe to the Ministers of England who might have invited
such a catastrophe! There was a certain little episode in
the late Italian war which we would do well to remember.
We were told that on the night before the battle of Sol-
ferino the Austrian generals had made all their dis-
positions, on the most approved military principles, for
surprising the allied army at the hour of nine in the morn-
ing; but at six o'clock they were themselves surprised and
slaughtered by their enemies. It was to be hoped that
Austrian counsels would not prevail in our English
camp, and that the tocsin of Parliament would be
sounded before it was too late. He did not say that any
English Minister would for a moment be induced to neglect
what he deemed to be necessary for the safety of his coun-
try ; but he sincerely believed, with all respect, that the
present Government were not adequately alive to the mag-
nitude of the occasion. The heart of the country was sound
—its instincts true and unerring ; its feelings were too
strong to be trifled with on that subject , and for that mode
in which the Ministers discharged themselves of the grave
responsibility now resting upon them in connection with it,
they would be called to a strict account. (Cheers.) He had
spoken out freely on this great question, because it was one
on which no false delicacy should prevent them from im-
prasaing upon the Government what it ought to know. As
far as it depended on the Secretary of State for War, no
doubt everything that eminent ability and great energy
could do would be achieved, but the labours and the good
will of one man were not enough to cope with the crisis.
Seeing, then, the great fact of our urgent want of prepara-
tion, neither on that nor on future occasions should he be
deterred from stating to the house what he had now felt it
his duty to state, although he had, perhaps, trenched on
ground which no other hon. gentleman had ever ventured
upon. (Cheers.) Thanking the house for the indulgence
it had extended to him, he had now to move—that the ex-
pense of completing the necessary works of national de-
fence, projected or already in progress, fhould be met by a
farad specially provided for that purpose, and independent
of the annual votes of Parliament.
The amendment having been seconded,
Mr. S. HERBERT said—Sir, I have listened incommon
with the rest of the house with great admiration to the
able and eloquent speech of my right hon. friend. If
I do not follow him through the whole of it—if I do
not venture upon the delicate ground on which he has
thought fit to trend—it is because Ido not wish to give any
encouragement to converting that which ought to be a de-
bate on the question of what should be the system and the
basis of our peace defences into a discussion upon foreign po-
licy, in which we are to criticise the character, the motives,
the past life, and intentions of any great Sovereign in
Europe. (Cheers.) I maintain that in the preparation which
we have been making, if such a word can be used, or rather
in the defences which we are strengthening and confirming,
we are following the legitimate pacific policy which is the
true policy of a great commercial country like England.
(Renewed cheers.) We have no offensive designs—we can
have no offensive designs against any nation in the world.
Peace is our great security ; the great source of our pros-
perity and :our wealth—peace is best suited for the form
of Government under which we have the happiness to live.
(Cheers.) I say, then, that if I now discuss the question
of our defences it is not with the view of showing what,
power we may be able to exercise against any one, but
merely what are the means which we are taking; which we
hope and which we ought to take for putting ourselves in
a state of security against any attack. I recollect the time
when the spirit prevailing in this country on these subjects
was very different from what it is now. The history of our
weakness in point of defence is curious to follow. After the
long war, when we, like the rest of Europe, were ex-
hausted by the enormous efforts we had made in that great
struggle, we believed, and Europe also believed, in a per-
petual reign of peace, never to be disturbed again by war.
During that time we lived upon our capital. We never
reproduced those means of defence which were essential to
began
sieP the country in proper security. Even when we
neceattorof awake to the danger of our situation,. and to the
try did not thenmaking some exertions to remove it, the coun-
tryso • •
house exact from go willingly along with us, nor did this
con-
trary. I recollmee'lt s any increased activity, but the con-
first arose. I recollect
the' discussion on our fortifications
into
tothe appointment of the first com-
mission to examine defences of our dockyards. I
recollect when my honosurtehlafeble friend the late Secretary to
the Admiralty and myself conjointly were objects of great
attack in this house because
we had endeavoured to
create at Devonport a large establishment for the
construction and repair of our steam navy,
com-
mittee of this house sitting upstairs condemnedas
extrava-
gant the schemes we had then attempted to A
carry into ef-
fect. So far from being extravagant, as it has turned out,
those schemes have since been enlarged. They
were
any largerGevoro
then than anything before contemplated by
merit, or ever carried into execution in any doehyarY, but
still they were found to be insufficient, and have since been
greatly extended. I say this to show that in times when
public opinion was adverse, I, aqleast, was not one of those
who remained acquiescent in the then existing state of
things. (Hear, hear.) For a long period before that, whe-
ther you looked to the army or the navy, but more especi-
ally to the army, which has never been so popular with
'this house as the navy, there was nothing but apathy, ne-
,glect, and, let me add, ignorance. We allowed our men to
;perish, partly because we did not choose to be at the ex-
p. ease of housing them as we ought to have done ; partly
Immense we did not believe, but rather scouted as the cry of
san iteirian quacks, the notion that men ought to have fresh
ear to breath. (Hear, hear.) The other night a debate arose
on. the enbject of the appointment of a commission to inquire
ant o the state of our fortifications. I am very glad to find
th. 4 kt, both as regards the necessity of more rapidly increas-