The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-20 00:00:00

POLAND.

The Earl of HARROWBY rose, pursuant to notice, to
move that an humble address be presented to her Majesey,
for copies or extracts of all correspondence which passed in
the years 1831 and 1832 between the Government of Great
Britain and those of Russia and other countries on the sub-
ject of Poland. After presenting a number of petitions to '
the same effect as those before mentioned, he proceeded to •
say that the attention of Europe and of the world in gene-
ral, which had somewhat slumbered with regard to the
affairs of Poland, had been revived by the events of the last
few months, and it was a matter for grave consideration and
doubt whether the condition of affairs in that country was
such as was contemplated by the Great Powers who were
parties to the Treaty of Vienna. They were all aware that
at that moment the retention of Poland as an integral part
of the European system was a matter of the deepest inte-
rest to statesmen. Not only the supports of the principle
of nationality, but persons who were the last to be suspected
of enthusiasm, such as Lord Castlereagh and Prince Met-
ternich, considered the Polish nation as a most important
element in Europe, not merely on the ground of outraged
rights and outraged nationality, but further as a great and
important barrier between Russia and Germany. Their
lordships were aware that the feeling on this subject was so
intense that the Governments of England, France, and Aus-
tria were at one time on the point of entering into a treaty for
the purpose of declaring war against Russia with regard to
this question; and it was only the return of Napoleon from
Elba which put an end to that treaty. Their lordships were
also aware that afterwards, when it was found impossible to
succeed in the object which the Powers had in view, by re-
establishing the independence cf Poland, the next best step
was taken. When the proposal was made for the distribution
of the several provinces of Poland between the three great
contending Powers—Austria, Russia, and Prussia—that
partition was accompanied by very particular stipulations.
It was not to be a mere distribution of teteitory, but it
was to be accompanied by obligations all tending to coun-
teract the partition, and to keep together the severed na-
tionality. Precautions were accordingly taken for the pure
pose of retaining the national feeling and the enjoyment of
the national name. The Poles were to be made subject to
their several rulers, but they were to obtain such a repre-
sentation as the respective governments should think it use-
ful and common to grant. This was not therefore a common
case of partition, but that of a partition accompanied by pre-
cautions that it should not destroy the nationality of the
people. An attempt was made to secure to them nationality,
good government, and liberal institutions. Now, it might
at first sight be supposed that a political disturbance in Po-
land was a simple question between the Poles and their
governors. That he (Earl of Harrowby) could not admit.
It was a matter of importance no less than of interest to
this country. In this instance not only were our sympathies
excited, but our sense of justice was evoked in defence of
liberties which had been specially chartered to these people
in the face of Europe by the very title deeds under which
they were held in subjection. For by what title was the ter-
ritory of Poland held, except flee treaty of Vienna ? Now,
from information he had received, he was led to believe the
Government of Russia was extremely sensitive on the sub-
ject. He hoped that on this occasion it would yield to the
marked expression of the public feeling of Europe which had
been manifested with regard to the late affairs of Warsaw.
He should not therefore ask her Majesty's Government to
renew the protest which they bad already made, but he
would confine himself to the motion of which he had given
notice. He might add that perhaps some personel feeling
might have led him out of his usual course to enter upon
this subject. (Hear.) [The noble lord concluded by a warm
eulogy on the character of his lamented relative, the late
Lord Dudley Stuart, the precise terms of which were not
heard with sufficient distinctness for a report.]
Lord WODEHOUSE said nothing could be more natural
than that the noble earl, who for so many years had taken
so much interest in the welfare of Poland, should be desi-
rous of bringing it under their lordships' notice at a time
when the attention of Europe was so much turned towards
it by the events that had recently taken place in Warsaw.
Though he (the noble lord) could not add anything to what
had already been stated by her Majesty's Government in
another place, he wished to say a few words upon a topic in
which he took a great personal interest. No one could read
the history'of Poland without feeling sympathy for a na-
tion so gallant and so unfortunate; but besides that, the
Polish question had given rise to considerations of the greatest
interest to the general welfare of Europe. The extinction
greatero f Poland
influence
uponindependent
European
politics ad
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e mleoodkeranttitmhees.maApbwovitebeaullt, it had
the greatest possible influence upon the position of Ger-
many;that Poland and the ancient Polish [provinces, instead of
being an outwork of Germany and a bulwark of Western
bsiiaehanbds: dan-
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fortificationsoutw ork o of R Russia
arerectedengdrewtht iahntee
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se
mre Poland,sgnhsmight
resuscitation
menace to Germany, the danger having been in-
strength to the famous quadrilateral. However they might
nd
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dent power appeared to him to be practically impossible—
question did not seem to him to be at present a practical one.
Poland had been dividedaraongst three of the strongest and
most powerful states in the world, and they could not hope
for its recovery from the overwhelming force that would be
brought to oppose its liberation. It must be a matter of
congratulation to its friends, however, that in the recent
events the Poles had manifested so much calmness and
moderation ; for it showed that while the ancient patriotic
feeling was as strong as ever, the events of the lest few
years had taught them political wisdom. There was reason
to hope, too, that better days were dawning upon them from
what was taking place in Russia. It was only due to the
Emperor to say that the measures which he had adopted as
regarded the serfs, and which he believed had emanated en-
tirely from the Emperor himself, had inaugurated a new
era. He felt confident that the progress of liberal ideas in
Russia would tend to secure greater freedom for the Poles,
and the enjoyment of those institutions to which they were
entitled under the treaty of Vienna. At the same time
their lordships must recollect that to surrender Poland
would be to reduce Russia again to a position of great infe-
riority in Europe. They were in the habit of talking about
the kingdom of Poland; but the ancient Polish provinces
really comprised a very large and important portion of Eu-
ropean Russia. While, therefore, he contended that the
restoration of Polish independence was no longer a practi-
cal question, he did hope that the Poles would be enabled
more end more to aid in increasing the civilisation of Russia,
and in introducing institutions more in confoimity with the
general system of western nations. (Hear, hear.) With
regard to Prussian Poland the case was somewhat different.
So great had been the increase of Gerznars, that they now
formed, with the Jews, almost as large a portion of the
population as the Poles themselves. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH observed that the
present position of affairs in the Duch._y of Warsaw could
not fail to have a great and material effect upon the
state of Europe. For his own part he entertained a very
strong sympathy for tho Polish people. They had suf-
fered for sixty-five years under the wrongs which had
been inflicted upon their forefathers; and during the
whole course of that period they had shown grandeur of
mind in great adversity. (Hear, hear.) They had at all
times maintained the dignity of their national character,
and they had made themselves respected even by those who
had trodden them under foot. In whatever field of foreign
service to which voluntary inclination or force had impelled
them, they had maintained a military reputation equal to
that of any other country in the world ; and it had been to
him a subject of the greatest astonishment that every sove-
reign of Russia had not put himself forward in an endeavour
to conciliate their affections, and had not felt proud to place
himself at the head of their noble battalions. He (the noble
earl) spoke not only es the friend of Poland, but as the
friend of Russia ; for he altogether put aside the memory of
recent differences, and looked only to the long friendship—
happily re-established—which had prevailed for so many
yew; and with 50 1111,104 benefit to both cations, Tip wag

old enough to recollect the events of the year 'l2—the noble
self-devotion which Russia had shown, and the great ser-
vices which she had performed in the re-establishment of
the liberty of nations. Besides, the present Emperor had
just bestowed upon his subjects the greatest boon of Ll:To-
rial benevolence that the world had ever seen, and he could
not but entertain a hope that, with so much benevolence for
slaves, his Majesty would not be insensible to the claims of
freemen. (Cheers.) The result of the present attitude of Po-
land had practically been to paralyse the action of Russia in
Central Europe ; and that could not happen without serious
mischief. The balance of power was so extremely delicate,
that no one great power could be temporarily disabled with-
out affecting the welfare of the whole. If, for example, the
action of France could be entirely neutralised, the injury
that would result to Europe from her temporory disappear-
ance would be far greater than that which would arise from
any action she could take in the pursuit of her material ag-
grandisement. (Hear, hear.) The important question,
then, was, in what manner Russia could re-establish her
position; and he knew of no mode so likely to be effective
as a frank reconciliation nah the Polish people. (Hear.)
Nor did he despair of the possibility of such reconciliation,
In days past, Italy, Lombardy, Naples, and Flanders gave
their most cordial loyalty to the Emperor Charles V. And
why? Because they enjoyed self-government; because they
were happy under his rule ; because they felt that he loved
them as well as the rest of his subjects ; and because when
he was amongst them he appeared as one of themselves. In
more recent times, the Hungarians—not merely in the early
times of Maria Theresa but much later—loyally supported
the House of Hapsburg. And why? Because they were
allowed a separate existence, and were treated rather as an
allied then as a subject state. Again, the Hanoverians,
during the 100 years they had been connected with the sove-
reigns of England, maintained their loyalty to the last. And
why ? Because they were always well governed, and go-
verned as an independent people. (Cheers.) He could not
doubt that the application of the same principle by Russia
to Poland would produce the same result; for, however
much individuals might change, there was no change in
nations. The Romans always considered that the most
powerful enemies made the best allies ; but then it was only
when they were well treated. Let not the Russians despise
the Poles because they were poor. Poverty was always dan-
gerous ; for poverty was always thinking of its wrongs, was
always desirous of change, was always aspiring. Wealth,
on the other hand, was content to let things be as they
were ; and if, therefore, the rule of Russia over Poland was
such as to lead to self-government and wealth, there could
be no doubt that it would soon render it loyal and content.
He had always thought that there was no agency so
influential over a people as generosity; and especially
when that people was itself the bravest and the most gene-
ous of nations. He did trust, therefore, that there might be
a conciliatory proposition made to the people of Poland,
and that they would receive it in the spirit in which it was
tendered. The Poles must see that there-establishment of
their independent nationality could only happen as the effect
of a disruption of all the states of Europe, such as 40 or 50
years ago brought the first Napoleon to the Vistula. The
first Napoleon held out promises to them ; he used them
for his own purposes, end after they had shed their hearts'
blood for him, he deceived them. Did they hope that in
any future convulsion of Europe, France would act again
towards them with greater fidelity ? (Hear.) If he (the
noble earl) could approach the Emperor of Russia, he would
most earnestly cornsel him to adopt a cou-se of clemency
and generosity; and he would with equal earnestness coun-
sel the Poles to meet his advances frankly and with frm-
ness. Insincerity in a sovereign was a crime which could
never be forgiven ; but ingratitude in a people was a crime
of equal magnitude, and it was one that deprived them of
all sympathy. (Loud cheers.)

The Earl of MALMESBURY was anxious to express his
entire concurrence in what had fallen from the two noble
earls. If the present was to the Poles a time to grieve, it
was not one to be disheartancd, when they contrasted the
present state of things with the state of things seven or
eight years ago. Then they had an absolute sovereign,
whose only idea of manifesting his power was by military
force ; now they had a ruler who had done greater things
for the cause of liberty than perhaps any of his contempo-
raries. Justice had in fact hardly been rendered to the
Emperor of Russia. He had information on which he could
rely as to the Emperor's sentiments. His Majesty had near
him men of experience and judgment, in whom he had the
greatest confidence, and who were pursuing the very course
which their lordships had to-night expressed their wish that
he should follow. On the other hand, of course, as an ab•
solute sovereign he had advisers who would urge him to
take an opposite course ; but when he knew the natural
turn of the Emperor's mind, and that he had about him
those who could give him good advice, he felt confident
of, before long, a milder rule in that country. But he
should be sorry if anything should be said in that house,
and nothing had been said, that could encourage the Poles
to take a course fatal to their own welfare. There were
parties among them who took up the subject in different
ways. There was the moderate party, the leader of which
was Prince Adam Czartoryski, who had just died at Paris,
who looked only on the improvement of the condition of
Poland under the sovereignty of Russia. There were others
whose patriotism went to the extent of wishing to re-esta-
blish the monarchy that was crushed nearly 70 years ago
But in neither House of Parliament, as far as he had ob-
served, had anything been said to encourage any section of
the Poles to attempt impossibilitica that could only result
in bringing them under a more stringent tyranny than that
to which they were at present subjected. But there was
one thing that no statesman in this country laced be afraid
boldly to state. It was, that the present rule of the Polish
nation was a breach of the treaty of Vierna. No one could
deny that, though some might excuse it. He could not ex-
cuse it, because he believed that the Polish rebellion of 1831
was entirely the :result of a very flagrant breach of that
treaty—a breach carried out in a cruel and inexcusable man-
ner. Therefore, while he said that nothing could excuse
the breach of that treaty by the Emperor Nicholas, nothing
could excuse the present Emperor in imposing on the Poles
a rule from which the treaty of Vienna protected them.
But he would entreat the Poles at this moment only to con-
sider how far they could obtain what that treaty promised
them—a constitutional Government, such •Ps their fellow-
countrymen possessed in Prussia—and at once to dismiss
from their minds any dream of reconstructing the Polish
monarchy. To attempt to do so would convulse Europe,
and could only end in retarding still longer the liberties to
which they were justly entitled.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE said it was not true
that wealth never conspired. He believed there never was
a greater conspiracy of wealth manifested in the' world than
in the spoliation of Poland, or a greater crime committed by
power against right than was then committed against that
unfortunate country.
Lord STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFE said he had
no intention of going over the ground which had already
been gone over so satisfactorily. But having at an early
period taken an interest in the questions relating to
Poland, he should be sorry to allow the discussion to
proceed without expressing his sentiments. He concurred in
the opinions which had been expressed on both sides of the
house as to the character of the Polish nation and the cha-
racter of that illustrious man who had lately died. He
thought no one conld look back on what had been done with
regard to Poland without feeling that a serious violation •f
the public law had been committed in the infraction of the
treaty of Vienna. One small and interesting town (Cracow)
which that treaty guaranteed should have a free and inde-
pendent constitution, at this moment formed part of the
Austrian empire. It was satisfactory to find that the voice of
truth could be heard in the British Parliament, and that
those who had succeeded in carrying out their ambitious
views had at last to find that theystood opposed to the opinion
of Europe expressed by a Parliament which more than any
other •body in Europe had a right to express that opinion.
Lord TALBOT DE MALAHIDE said he agreed with
what had been said in favour of the rights of Poland. There
was one point to which he would call attention. One of the
greatest grievances under which the Poles at present suf-
fered had not been alluded to, he meant the great religious
grievance. He had been assured on credible authority that
at the present moment there were more than five millions of
Poles who had been forced to abjure their relit-,:on and to
conform to the Greek Church, which of course they did only
in appearance. He also heard that there had been an attempt
to bring up the Jewish children in the Greek faith, andthat
hundreds, if not thousands of them had been carried to the
baptismal font. Their lordships had heard a great deal of the
Mortara case, a case which fully called for their sympathies.
Many of the States in Europe had interfered in that ques-
ti but he believed that for that instance of what was con-
sidered so great a grievance, there ware hundreds if not thou-
sands in Poland. Of course they must all feel a great in-
terest in what was going on in Russia, and they all wished
the Emperor success in his scheme, but he would be better
able to carry it out by having the support of the Polish
provinces. He trusted that some sinister rumours
they had heard about papers haN,:ng been circulated among
the peasants, urging them to rise up against their landlords,
. a ruse which had been practised before in the Polish pro-
vinces, had no truth in them, for a more fatal policy could
not pursued. They were told that a war of Jacquerie had
broken out in some provinces in Russia. It would be a
fearful thing if an empire with a population of between fifty
and sixty millions should come under the dominion of an
ignorant and degraded peasantry. On the other hand, the
, Polish provinces could feel no sympathy in this movement.
• Poland would act as a breakwater to Europe, instead of
being a source of danger.
The Earl of HARROWBY said he would follow the re-
, commendation of his noble friend and alter his motion ac-
cordingly.

The motion, as amended, by leaving out the words "and
of other countries," was then put and carried•

DRUNKENNESS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS, in moving the second
reading of this bill, said its object was to enable magistrates
to commit drunkards to local bridewells.
The bill was read a second time.
LANDLORD AND TENANT LAW AMENDMENT
(IRELAND) ACT PROCEEDING BILL.
This bill was referred to a select committee.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) ADVANCES AND
REPAYMENTS OF MONIES BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACT AMENDMENT

BILL.
This bill passed through ccumittee.

TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
TA's bill passed through commitee.

EAST INDIA-COUNCIL, &c., BILL.
The report of amendments was received.
ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill pased through committee.
PIERS AND HARBOURS BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
COUNTY SURVEYORS, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
Tbis bill passed through committee.
APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL.
Earl GRANVILLE moved the second reading of this
bill, and suggested that it would bo more convenient to take
the discussion on the next stage of the bill.
The Earl of DERBY said he quite concurred in the
opinion that it was not desirable to take the discussion in so
thin a house.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the ehair at twelve o'clock.
• PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following bills were
considered and agreed to :—Aberystwith and Welsh Coast
Railways ; Bishop Stortford, Dunmow, and Braintree Rail-
way; Cleveland Railway; Forest of Dean Central Rail-
way; Hatfield Chase Warping and Improvement; Inver-
ness and Perth Junction Railway ; Ludlow and Clee Hill
Railway; Mersey Docks and Harbour Board; Much Wen-
lock, &c., Railway; Salisbury and Dorset Junction Rail-
way; South Eastern Railway (Folkestone Harbour, &c.) ;
Vale of Clwyd Railway; and Ware, Hadham, and Bun-
'ngford Railway.

The following bills were read a third time and passed :
Caledonian and Symington, Biggar, and Broughton Rail-
way Companies; Caledonian Railway (Rutherglen and
Coatbridge Branches) (Queen's consent, on behalf of the
Crown, to be signified.)