The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

the spiritual head of the Catholics throughout the world, must remember that we have no regular diplomatic rela-
it cannot be desirable that her Majesty's Government should tions with Rome, and that the Pope would be apt to re-
take the initiative. (Hear, hear.) Not merely would such ceive any irregular communication with suspicion. He
a proceeding involve us in discussions which we are not might very fairly say that on the political part of the ques-
the most capable of conducting, but any proposal that we tion we are not impartial, because we are determined at
might make, even though the proposal might be good in almost any price to secure the unity of Italy; and that on
itself, would not be likely to be received with favour by the the religious part of the question our interest as Pr.o-
Catholic Powers of Europe. The noble earl pointed out
I trust
testants inclines us to regard with favour whatever will
.
the possibility, as he thinks, of some arrangement by weaken his power. But, my lords, means. may
andmindeerpaelnpdeewnecre
which the temporal sovereignty of the Pope might be dis- will be discovered for reconciling the
connected from his spiritual authority, but the difficulties of the Holy See with the exercise
I believep that those
which would beset such an agreement between the Catho- of the King of Italy in that territory. ofa') itlieteuat el
government, order, tranquillity,
lic Powers must be apparent to your lordships, and if, in means will be found in theopovra teionrYOf time and in the pro-
addition, the question were to be discussed by the Protes.- gross of events, in the good g
• of the e countries adjacent to the
about Powers, lam sure no ingenuity of man could bring and increasing prosperity
' Pope, and
in his straitened growing
dis.
about a solution of the question. (Hear, hear.) For these dominions of thep ooppeserlatynd above all in the e
reasons, although her Majesty's Government certainly do content of the Pope's 0 subjects, .
..revenues,
not view with satisfaction the continuance of a state of and in the impossibility f. his continuing to resist the pres-
sure from all sides. I think that the Pope might then no-
things in which the independence of one of the States of
ea for the fullest and
Italyd reest exercise of his spiritual
Europe—l mean of those provinces which still remain nomi- gala-- -
the King would indeed be most unwise
zany under the authority of the Pope—is entirely at an end, andpower'
notmeet if he did.
of any such overtures from the Holy See in
owing to the occupation of that territory by foreign troops,
a_spirith the kindest and most reverential liberality.
I must yet decline to follow the noble lord through the dif-
ear.) Our efforts should be confined, as they
ferent questions which he has raised. I cannot help observ- (litfveear,
hitherto been, and as I am sure they will con-
ing that for many years the temporal authority of the Pope h.
has altogether ceased to exist. Since the year 1849 the inde- tinue to be, to an endeavour to check the interven-
pendence of the Pope as a Sovereign has not existed for a tion of other Powers in the affairs of Italy. We
single hour. His authority, which had been destroyed by must never disguise our determination that the moral
that movement in 1848, the full effects of which we are feel- influence of England will be used to prevent the restoration
ing at the present day, was only restored by the troops of of Governments which must bring vengeance in their train,
Prance and Austria. As long
as those troops remained in
and which can never claim the confidence and affection of
his territory, the sovereignty of the Pope was nominally the people ; and must continue to do what we can, as it was
sustained ; but on the day on which the Austrian troops left expressed in the Speech from the Throne, to secure for the
the territory which they occupied, it ceased to be under even Italians liberty to manage their affairs for themselves. As
the nominal authority of the Pope, and it is notorious that far as they have yet had an opportunity of doing so they
on the day on which the French troops shall be withdrawn have shown remarkable prudence and moderation. (Hear.)
from Rome the sovereigntyof the Pope will altogether cease For years past they have been reduced by oppressive Go-
bi every part of his dominions. It Is for this reason that the vernments and foreign bayonets to that state in which men
solution of the question immediately depends upon whether are most unfit for a free constitution ; but during the last
the French Governs/lent shall or shall not withdraw their Year and a half they have exhibited a patience, moderation,
troops from Reme; and it is clear that, while the reasons and good sense which have exceeded the expectations of
which may have induced the Emperor of the French to con- of their most enthusiastic friends. (Hear, hear.) The last
tinue that occupation are reasons which it is not desirable general election has been conducted with so much peace
that we should upon this occasion discuss in this house, and order, the people have displayed so much sound judg-
there are as the noble earl has pointed out, many arguments ment in resisting the appeals made to their passions and in
selecting the men whom they deemed best fitted to promote
tendingto prove that it would be far better policy to with-
the national interests, that, though there are many and
draw those troops. Her Majesty's Government have not dis .
most formidable difficulties yet to be overcome, I think we
wised their opinion that it is desirable that those troops
cannot feel otherwise than hopeful that better days are in
should be withdrawn ; but it is clear that there are many
store for Italy, and that she may yet fulfil her destiny as an
tholic Powers, and that although the matter has been
other considerations which meet have weight with Ca-
united nation. (Hear.) I understand and respect the desire
much discussed, no one has yet pointed out any means by of many Roman Catholics, that the supreme head of their
Church should exercise, in all its plenitude, his temporal
which, after the withdrawal of those troops, the spiritual
authority of the Popo can be reconciled with his new po- and spiritual power; but I agree with my noble friend the
sition. Ido not say that that problem may not be solved, Under-Secretary that they are not justified in saying, either
but it certainly is not for her Majesty's Government with regard to her Majesty's Government, or with regard
to devise the means of such a reconciliation. It seems to the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department,
that a most erroneous idea prevails in some portions that the temporal or spiritual authority of the Pope has
of her Majesty's dominions, and in other parts of Europe, been interfered with. We desire only to behold the subjects
as to the part which her Majesty's Government have taken of his Holiness prosperous and contented, and we are not
and are taking in these transactions ; because it is stated, debarred from looking at the Pope as one of the Sovereigns
and it is believed, I suppose, by some persons, that the chief of Europe, and from seeing—what it is impossible we can
object and end of the Government, especially of my noble close our eyes to—that he stands in a position different from
friend who is at the head of the Foreign-office, has been to any other Sovereign, for he has, in fact, no temporal power
put an end to the authority of the Pope. It is supposed that at all. He has delegated his power to other authorities, one
he is the chief enemy of the head of the Catholic Church, in the capital and another in the provinces, who exer-
and that his aim throughout has been to undermine the cises it for him. There cannot be the slightest doubt
authority of the Pope, and to place him in a situation in of what my noble friend the Under Secretary has said, that
which that authority can no longer be maintained. All. I the moment that the pressure of foreign forces is with-
can say is that her Majesty's Government have carefully drawn the nullity of the Pope's, power will become manifest.
abstained from taking a prominent part in the discussion of Nothing can be more certain than that the day when the
,those questions which especially affect the Pope. They take French army quits Rome the Pope's subjects will throw off
a deep interest in everything which relates to the Italian their allegiance. The reason, it appears to me, why the
Peninsula, and they have used their moral influence to secure Pope can never retain his temporal authority is, that his
for the Italian people the opportunity of carrying out their subjects can never rely on the establishment of such a
own views, but they have all along thought that it was not Government as shall justly command their obedience and
for a Protestant Power to take a prominent part in the dis- loyalty. For this Ido not blame the present Pope or any
cession of questions relating to the head of the Catholic of his predecessors, because, without destroying the basis on
-Church. (Hear.) As regards the ether portions of the noble which the Papacy has always rested, and without departing
earl's speech, I might be excused from entering at all upon altogether from the system which has prevailed for cen-
-.the very important and very varied topics which he has dis- tunes, I believe it to be impossible for any Pope to
cussed, more especially upon that most important question grant those reforms which the spirit of the age and the
as to the possession of Venetia by the Emperor of Austria. exigencies of the times require. Advice and warnings have
My lords, all that I can say upon that matter is that her for the last 40 years been given to the Pope by the Catholic
Majesty's Government are most anxious—as, anxious as the Powers of Europe, and the answer which has been returned
noble earl can be—that peace should be maintained. (Hear, has in substance been invariably the same as that which
hear.) The advice which they have given to each of the Cardinal Antonelli lately gave, to the Marquis de Gra parties is, not to be the assailant ; and lam confident that mont—Le Pape ne transigera jamais. The Pope will not
he who is the assailant will not only incur a most grave and grant those political reforms which he believes to be incon-
weighty responsibility, but will not receive the sympathy sistent with his spiritual rights. The Papacy is the purest
which the party who is attacked will always command. A absolutism, and in all those questions which vitally affect
great work has been begun and has been carried out in the social wellbeing of the people the Church claims to be
Italy, and I cannot help hoping that those Italian statesmen the sole and exclusive judge, and never has consented, and
-who now sway the destinies of that peninsula will be wise never will, to any compromise. (Hear, hear.) It is the
enough to-see that time is required for the consolidation of custom in this country to regard the secularisation of the
the fabric which they have constructed, and that if they Papal Government as the panacea for all the evils from
can present to Europe the spectacle of an united people, which the subjects of the Pope are now suffering ; but in
peaceably working out their own independence, they will be the immutable and inevitable condition of the Papal Go-
doing more to promote the solution of those questions as to vernment such a process is impossible. A cardinal must
_Rome and Venetia which they so ardently desire than they be Secretary of State, for he is the President of the Council
,could accomplish by any attempt to destroy the present of Ministers, the pivot, in fact, on which the whole ma-
Aerritorial arrangements of Europe. (Cheers.) chinery of the Papal Government works. Ecclesiastical
The Earl of CLARENDON, to whom the Earl of Derby Ministers are necessary at home, ecclesiastical agents
gave way, said—Although I was fully prepared for the an- abroad. Civil causes must be tried before ecclesiastical
swer which my noble friend has given to the noble earl tribunals. The Pope is himself at the head of the Inqui-
opposite, I cannot help expressing my satisfaction at learn- sition and cannot delegate his power to a layman. As the
ing that her Majesty's Government have not been em- temporal must in all respects be subservient to the spiri-
ployed in matters where I think their interference would teal authority of a Sovereign, the Pope can grant no sub-
_he prejudicial, and my confident hope and expectation that etential reforms, and this alone would be an insurmountable
. they wilt adhere to the same prudent policy of leaving the obsticle to the re-establishment of his temporal power
.settlement of the Roman question, which is essentially a under a system of constitutional government. I think,
Catholic question, to the Catholic Powers of Europe. At therefore, that the Pope must already see or will soon
the same time, I must say that I entirely agree with the become sensible that his lost provinces can only be recovered
noble earl opposite in the speech which has been listened to for him by a foreign army, and that his present territory
with equal admiration on both sides of the house. I think can only be retained under his nominal authority by a
that the Roman question is of vital importance to Italy, never-ceasing foreign occupation. That is simply impos-
and that Rome most certainly ought to be the capital of that sible, and I trust some means will be found of reconciling
-country. If it be not, the differences between the various what is called " the inexorable logic of events" with the
Mates will stand in the way of the unity of Italy, whereas personal independence and spiritual supremacy of the Pope.
All the States would agree in choosing for the capital the I think, however, that we Protestants have nothing to do
city of Rome, which combines all the requisites, historical, with an arrangement of so delicate a nature, which may
religious, and local, for the capital of a great country, and safely be left to the operation of time. (Cheers.)
which, moreover, has none of those municipal recollections The Earl of DERBY—Whatever falls from my noble
which would interfere with the establishment of constitu- friend is well entitled to the attention of your lordships,
Lionel government. But this can be effected only with the and I feel that we are indebted to him for the clear and
consent of Frangkand in consequence of the convictions of manly statement which he has made. (Hear, hear.) He
the Catholic Powers of Europe that, Rome being the capital has stated in the fullest and frankest manner what are his
of Italy, the independence of the Pope can be secured, and own views on this important question. In some points I
that the civil authorities would not interfere with spiritual entirely concur in the opinion of my noble friend. He has
matters, or with the power and authority of the Church. laid down the principle that the rights of Austria over her
I say that we could not interfere in such questions as these Venetian territories are as valid as the rights of any Sove-
-without prejudice to the result at which we desire to arrive ; reign over any portion of his dominions. (Hear, hear.) I
we could not help to settle either of those questions which agree with him, and at the same time I concur with my
must be solved before there is any chance of Rome being noble friend in thinking that the continued possession of
constituted the capital of Italy. We may address ourselves that territory by Austria may be a source of constant diffi-
to the French Government; we may express our desire, in culties and differences between Austria and the Italian
terms
as
earnest as those which have been employed kingdom, between whom it is most important that, if it be
.4 the noble earl, that the French garrison should be possible, all causes of difference should be withdrawn, and
that those States should be united in the bonds of harmony
withdrawn from Rome; we may appal to the principle of
non-intervention in the affairs of Italy which was volun-
and peace. (Hear.) I further concur with my noble friend,
and I am sure your lordships will concur also in thinking,
Wily adopted by the Emperor himself; we may declare
that as long as the Roman question is unsettled Italy will that whatever may be our personal feelings—whatever we
le unsettled, and that, as the noble earl has said, the dan-
may wish, whatever may be the sentiments of the country
,ger of war will constantly be incurred ; but, argue as we —the Power which first resorts to the fearful alternative of
nay, we shall not be able to disguise from ourselves that war will incur an awful responsibility, and lose altogether
'the question of Rome is a French almost as much ae it the sympathies which, but for the means adopted, she would
is an Italian question, and that, with the grave political otherwise command. (Cheers.) In the very few observations
.snd religious considerations for France which it involves, which I shall make I shall confine myself exclusively to the
the Emperor will claim to be the sole judge of what it is subject to which my noble friend's question more imme-
'expedient to do in the interests of that country. (Hear, diately referred—the particular difficulty with which not we,
'ear.) It is perfectly true, as the noble earl has said, that but Europe has to deal, viz., the question of the Pope. And
the expedition of 1849 was undertaken in order to repress I think I may congratulate your lordships and the country
Alemocracy. It was a great error. It has proved a griev- that, whatever differences of opinion there ma be between
sus misfortune to the subjects of the rope, and continues us as to the final settlement which is desirableY i
with regard
;to be a sore embarrassment to France. The French Go- to this Italian question, there is on all sides of the house—
'vernment were not slow in discovering the error of that lam sure there is on this side, and I rejoice to hear there
expedition, because even while the Pope was still at Gaeta is on the part of her Majesty's Government and on the part
le positively rejected those administrative reforms of those who represent more or less independent opinions, which were proposed to him and refused to return to Rome like my noble friend who has just sat down—one concurrent
except in the plenitude of the most unrestricted power epinien, that with regard to the internal settlement of the
which had been enjoyed by any of his predecessors. Upon Roman territory her Majesty's Government is not only
that condition he returned. With that condition he has justified but required to maintain the principle of the
tolerated no interference, and for the past 12 years the strictest non-interference. (Cheers.) I entirely concur in
French army has been the Roman police, the passive spec- what
fwas stated by the noble lord the Under Secretary of
tators of acts which they have reprobated, and the respon- Statethe for Foreign Affairs, and confirmed by the expression
esible protectors of the worst Government in Europe. I be- of
tat ifepanin tohinsa,of my noble friend who had just sat down,
lieve that the humiliation of the position of the French army
of this questiony
eitweroe
would
danted to complicate the difficulties
set Rome has long been felt by the Emperor. (Hear, hear,
t cstant country—takingwu be the fact of England—a Pro-
,from Lord Derby.) I believe t'. it his desire to withdraw
settle the affairs of the loraananueS
active part in endeavouring to
Shat army is perfectly sincere. There is abundant evidence (Cheers.) So strongly
have I always felt upon this question a that in the papers which have been laid before the French i
the Government with whichl I
had
dn that at the time when
the honour to be con-
Chambers, and in those deepatches of M. Thouvenel which
d using all their efforts to prevent the war which
netted were
France and Austria, we
sit the time they were written, were certainly not intended
b k
unfortunately roe• out • between .
for publication. I believe that the Emperor permitted unfortunately
pressing both parties to endeavour to come to some
fieneral Lamoriciere to take service with the Pope in
the expectation that ha would orgauise, a force sufficient terms of agreement with the very object which the question
has in view—namely, of reconciling the spiritual supre.
to maintain tranquillity, without foreign aid to
secure the personal safety of the public, and to repress the rnft(tY and authority of the Pope with the general peace and
just discontent of the Pope's subjects ; and that i f General tranquillity of Italy. The formation of a kingdom of Italy
Garibaldi' s expedition to Sicily had been delayed for another was not then contemplated by any one, but in giving our
month, the French garrison would have been withdrawn advice we did not hesitate to say that the Catholic Powers
were particularly, and especially the Governments, bound to
from Rome. But, having reference to the events which have
deal with the Roman question, and that, while we would
Mace occurred, particularly considering the feelings and
Zinions which have recently been manifested in the French 1 giveo every assistance, we felt that to place ourselves in the
._
tirst line would not only be objectionable in point of prim-
cio'
"'allge which notoriously exists at Rome, I think that the tubers, and the natural impatience of the existing state
ciple, but a serious impediment to the practical success of
~;_
-eonaeror of the French to any undertaking or any effort to bring about a settlement.
withdraw at garrisonmay well say that if he were now
__ .
(Hear.) Therefore, I cordially assent to the principle laid
Trance but Catholic from Rome, not alone Catholic
down by the noble lord the Under Secretary of State—that
Europe would hold him personally re-
this is
Aponsible for any
Sustain. (llcar.)3i in,alt or injury which the Pope might this is a question in which it is not expedient for this coun.
the Emperor will usay' therefore, that we may be sure that try to interfere either by diplomacy or by negotiations.
hoar sooner than hootthwithdraw his forces from Rome one (Cheers.) We arc less likely to do gold than to do harm by
and expedien t for Prance that it will be safe for himself •
such interference—(hear)—and I rejoice to hear from the
do se-a-unless, indeed, the Pope noble lord that her Maje,ty's Government have not engaged
were spun tencously te tilt:
,of Italy, and to the install:ll, to Rome becoming the capital ' in any such negotiations or any such correspondence.
Government and Parliaments airilidthat city of the Italian (Cheers) Nevertheless. I roust be permitted to say that I
look upon this Roman question as one which as long as it
that by measures to and
Were spontaneously to
announce
remains unsettled must keep unsettled the prospect of
en 11 had assent d his
own independence would be secured, and tile •• ' retaining (Hear.) r)lt is
privileges and peace. a . a question of the greatest
s of the Church would be preoarrd
po vier u.ndiminished, difficulty and of the greatest delicacy. It would be a ques-
such an event is im
'No one can say that Posinble. No one tion of no difficulty whatever were we dealing with
it
is hi , lily improbable, but I certain - only a
can deny that , e
would render it
astill
Any interference on our
part(Hear.) I cannel: more nn- and embarrassment when we are dealing with one :who
likely, if not impossible. e'er,: with the unites in his own person the capacities of a temporal Sove-
occupation of
tioble earl opposite that the
that theme by th® reign and of the spiritual head of another Church. (Hear.)
Trench army is unpopular. I believe
.more we I must also be permitted to say that it is not a matter of in-
" the more it will be believed that we difference to • press for its cessation this country, as regards English interests, in
more difficult will what have some selfish object in view, and the
his position the Pope should stand. It has ever been the
troops, We principle of It become for the Emperor to withdraw
British policy that the head of the Roman
Emperor