The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-07 00:00:00

the shoulders of the Ministers. (Hear, hear.) On them reform, but to protest against the hon. and learned gentle-
be the consequences which may result from the dissolution man opposite robbing the printers of Wallingford by ad-
of Parliament which they have advised. As reference has
dressing his constituents through the House of Commons.
been made to proceedings elsewhere, I cannot sit down with- (A laugh.) We had heard enough of the Ref um debate ;
s. (Hear,
should, battle ought to be fought out on the hustings. out expressing my astonishment that in that place notice ,
hear.) He was glad the Government had dissolved, because
should, in a most irregular and unprecedented manner, have
he thought a general election might tend to put parties
been taken of proceedings in this house—(hear)---and an
opinion been expressed upon them contrary to that of the upon a proper footing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman
highest authority in this house. (Cheers.) We sometimes
concluded by asking the Government whether it was true
to the vacant judgeship of the Irish Encumbered
spect ours, and by that means they obtain information as to of the House of Come inspect the journals of the other House of Parliament, and
that they
I have no doubt that members of that house sometimes in-
coons had appointed a member
Estates Court, contrary to the report of the Commissioners,
what is passing within the walls of this house ; but this is and in the face of the decreasing-businees of the Court ?
the-first time that I have ever heard any person holding Mr. S. ESTCOURT replied that a judge had been ape
r the distinguished position occupied by the noble peer who Pointed to the Encumbered Estates Court in Ireland, and
has been referred to openly criticise in that place the pro- that
..the person selected was a member
of that house. He
ceedings of this house, and take upon himself to cite autho- could say nothing about the business of the court or the
rities with respect to them which this house does not in the report of the Commissioners ; but he should be glad to
slightest degree recognise. (Cheers.) I am glad to hear answer the question of the hono the general question before. gentleman more fully upon
the right hon. baronet say that the dissolution which has a future occasion. Turning to
been advised in this case and that which took place in 1857 the house, the right hon. gentleman. said the Government
stand upon exactly the same grounds. The issue in that did not complain of the course which the noble lord the
iv
case was a definite one. There was a vote of the House of member for T. erten had pursued since Monday last ; on
Commons upon a particular question of policy upon which the contrary, they thought that his willingness to
that tofacilitateatee
h
my noble friend advised the Crown that a dissolution might the disposal of indispensable business, in order
take place with a view to an appeal to the country. That dissolution might take place as early as possible, was con-
appeal was distinctly answered. I only hope that on the
beformable. with the policy which they themselves adopted in
•
present occasion the issue will as clearly understood—(cheers and counter cheers)—and that, the House of Corn- tone
sima—
of similar
circumstances
stances
speech during'
the but they
cent that the
re could not forgetdebate was one of ab-
mons having by an adverse vote condemned two of the main solute defiance apparently founded on the belief that it was ab-
solutely impossiblehenoble lord recommended them to pursue a for them to have recourse to a dissolution.
features essentially bound up with the principle of the bill
for amending the representation of the people submitted by (Hear') The
the Government, we shall have the opinion of the country course which neither he himself nor any party in that
and of the constituencies upon those parts of the measure. house would have followed, and it was not surprising that
(Hear, hear.) his remarks should have created an unpleasant feeling.
(Hear.).. After all, however, the Government and the Op-
Colonel FRENCH said that, although no one would
position must fight out their battle upon the hustings end
question the power of the Government to advise her Ma-
he, for one, did not fear the result. Ministers did not' jety to dissolve Parliament, it was equally well understood
ac-
that it was not justifiable for them to take that course cept the recent
not
eas a.defeat of their bill, which, on the
unless they had some hope of a majority being returned to contrary,.o. been discussed at all. But the real ques-
t' n before the country was, whether the business of the
support their opinions. That was now the point of dif-
ference. That was the point which the Government would State should continue to be conducted by the present Go-
have to answer immediately upon the return of the new vernment or be transferred to other hands. (Hear.)
Parliament. It was strange that the First Lord of the Ad- Mr. LINDSAY said that, so far as he was able to judge,
rairalty, who had accused the noble lord the member for the present Government had conducted the affairs of the
Tiverton of indirect disrespect to her Majesty, should have country well and wisely. But the question at issue was not
overlooked the direct disrespect of which the noble lord at one of confidence in the Administration, but whether their
the head of the Government had been guilty in stating else- Reform Bill was satisfactory. Re believed that it was
where that he would not under any circumstances recom- erroneous in its fundamental principles and rude in its con-
mend that the noble lord the member for the city of London struction, and therefore he had voted against it, though
should be charged with the formation of a Ministry, and with reluctance and regret. (Hear, hear.)
that there was a member of that house representing the Sir A. AGNEW referred to a statement made the other
people with whom, under no circumstances, would her Ma- night by the Minister for War—that in Malta Lord Hill's
jesty have anything to do. circular would be strictly adhered to, and that, therefore,
Mr. MALINS saw with great satisfaction the extraor- the Host would not in future be saluted by the English
dinary uneasiness with which hon. gentlemen opposite re- troops. The fact was, that it was under Lord Hill's circu-
garded the impending dissolution. (Cheers.) During the lar that such salutes were now given. He hoped the hon.
last week they had been exceedingly bold, declaring that and gallant general would reconsider the matter, The hon.
they were quite indifferent to a dissolution and would not baronet then asked the Lord-Advocate when the Royal com-
be coerced by it. The house might now judge what that mission for inquiring into the working of the Forbes Mac-
indifference meant. Why were they so uneasy ? Was the kenzie Act would be issued.
dissolution unconstitutional; was it improper? (" Very.") Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked the First Lord of the
Had her Majesty's advisers done anything which was not Admiralty to explain an excess of £790,000 in the expendi-
in consonance with the best principles of the constitution ? ture of 18.57-8.
(Hear, hear.) Theelang-uage of the noble lord the other Lord NAAS, referring to the question of the hon. mem-
night was so strong that it was only comprehensible that he ber for Dover relative to the Irish Encumbered Estates
intended to follow it up, and that he and his party would Court, stated that the vacant judgeship had been filled up
take care that there should be no dissolution, because the in conformity with the provisions of the Act passed last
supplies which were required should not be forthcoming. year, and that the business of the Court was amply suffi-
(Hear, hear.) Was the noble lord in earnest in that threaf; cient to employ three judges.
and, if so, why had he not followed it up by action ? Was Mr. MELLOR said that when the Aet was under discus-
it that the majority on which he counted had melted down sion last year the house was told that the Court would not
require more than two judges ; but it was thought that as
to too small dimensions ? Having long beenaccustomed to
look upon the noble lord as a man who might in an emergency Mr. Hargreaves was about to be pensioned off at his full
be relied upon to uphold and support the principles of the salary, the country might as well have the advantage of his
English constitution, he was greatly disappointed to find services. In the event, however, of his transference to
him now disposed to adopt such extreme principles. England, where it was proposed to establish an Estates
Sir S. TRELAWNY rose to order. A number of gentle- Court, the understanding was that the vacancy in Dublin
men had given notice of their intention to make motions would not be filled up.
on going into committee of supply, and it was not fair that Sir F. BARING did not wish to refer to the topic on
other questions should take precedence of them. (Cries of which the present discussion commenced, but he understood
" Go on.")
Mr. MALINS said he should like to know what was the that it was an order of the house that anything passing in
the House of Lords should not be referred to in the House of
issue now tendered to the country. (Hear, hear.) Was it Commons. (Hear, hear.) He concurred in the wisdom of
the issue tendered by the noble lord the member for the that order, thinking it desirable that they should not amuse
city of London, who had told them what his Reform Bill themselves or embitter their proceedings by reference to
was to be ? And was the noble lord the member for Tiverton what occurred in another place. But he should like some
inclined to adopt it ? (A cry of "He has said so.") Had the reciprocity to be displayed—(cheers)—or circumstances
noble lord said so ? He had not the good fortune to hear might arise which would necessitate the alteration of that
the noble lord, but he understood that he had said that he order. If accusations and attacks were to be made personally
was not for that bill—(" He did not say anything of the on members of the House of Commons, and they were pre-
kind ")—and unless the reports which had reached him vented answering those attacks by an order of the house, he
greatly deceived him, the noble lord had expressed himself conceived that then such an order would stand in the way
to the effect that whenever the bill sketched by the noble of fairness and justice, and ought no longer to be continued.
lord the member for the city was brought in he should be (Cheers.) He would now advert to another point. It was
found among its most strenuous supporters—he meant the old practice that all expenses with respect to the man-
opponents. (A laugh.) Were hon. gentlemen opposite agement of the revenue should be paid out of the gross re-
agreed among themselves ? The great majority of them ex- venue. This was bad as a system of account, a great sum
pressed anxiety that the present Government should remain of money being thus withdrawn from the supervision of
in office. (No, no, and hear, hear.) He repeated it, that Parliament ; and in 1854 an act was passed prohibiting
unless the noble lord was surrounded by a body of gentle- expenditure for the management of the revenue from be-
men upon whose word no reliance was to be placed, which ing paid out of that revenue, and providing that it should
was the last suggestion he should make, the great ma- only be paid out of money voted by Parliament. He ob-
jority of them did not desire the retirement of the present served, however, that a contract had been entered into by
Goverment. They were not agreed upon the provisions which the Postmaster-General engaged to pay the contractors
of a Reform Bill. Were noble lords and right honourable for the conveyance of mails between England and Ireland
gentlemen opposite, when they came into office, prepared the sum of £105,000 out of the revenue of the Post-office,
to accept the ballot ? Upon no other condition would contraryto the provisions of the Act of 17th and 18th Vic.,
honourable gentlemen below the gangway give them their cap. 94. This was entirely against the Act of Parliament,
support. He presumed that neither the noble lord the and was wrong both in principle and law. He presumed
member for Tiverton nor the noble lord the member for that this course had not been intentionally pursued, but
the city would undertake to conduct the government originated in some blunder in copying an old form of con-
of the country upon such terms ; but, if so, what was tract ; and he hoped he should be given to understand that
to be the principle of their union in office ? The dis- it was not the intention of the Government to go back to
solution of Parliament had been forced upon Ministers, the old practice.
not for the public good, but for party purposes, and in that Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the error in question had
light it would be regarded by the country. (Hear, hear.) originated from oversight in copying an old form of con-
Sir C. LEWlS.—There has been throughout our recent tract ; but it would not have the effect of withdrawing the
debates a constant, unfair, and wholly unsuccessful attempt money from the control of Parliament, for the sum would
to fix upon this side of the house the responsibility of the have to be voted. Nothing was further from the intention
present state of affairs. The remarks
of the Government than to depart from the spirit of the
which have just been Act of 1854.
made by the hon. and learned member for Wallingford Mr. W. WILLIAMS was glad to hear that explanation,
would almost lead the house to suppose that it was my as in his mind the violation of the Act would be most un-
noble friend the member for Tiverton and the gentlemen pardonable.
sitting on this side who have advised the dissolution of
Mr. WILSON observed that though the contract might
Parliament, and who were responsible for that important be made by the Post-office in perfect conformity with the
existing system, yet no money could be paid until after it
step. (Hear.) But observe what has been the course was voted by that house. If that were not the case it would
of the Government upon this subject. On acceding to be quite clear that the whole control of the house would be
power last year they took the Government, according to
gone in this respect. (Hear, hear.)
The LORD-ADVOCATE in answer to e question put by
the expression of my noble friend, with its engagements. Sir A. AGNEW, stated that the terms of the commission
I must be permitted to remark, however, that it is a per- and the na'nes of the commissioners for inquiring into the
fectly new doctrine that an Opposition, when it comes into publichouse question in Scotland were settled, and that
office, abandons its own engagements and adopts those of only the formal part of the issue of the commission remained
its antagonists. (Hear, hear.) However, without dwelling to be done.
upon that part of the subject, I shall only say that Ministers Sir A. AGNEW inquired whether the commission would
voluntarily undertook the engagement of bringing in a Re- be issued before Easter.
form Bill. They promised to do so on various occcasions by The LORD-ADVOCATE did not know how long the
declarations of individual members of the Government formal part of the business would occupy.
during the recess, and they announced in the Speech from General PEEL, in answer to a question put by Sir A.
the Throne their intention of introducing a measure of AGNEW, said that the orders given by Lord BM would not
reform. After mature deliberation that bill was brought be altered.
forward ;it was made the subject of a long and able debate, Sir D. NORREYS expressed a hope that the noble lord,
and by the solemn jeidpaent of
_the house it was con- the member for Tiverton, would be mare precise in reference
demned as unsatisfactory. In consequence of the adverse to his agreement with the noble lord the member for Lon-
decision of this house they abandoned their bill ; but they don as to what he proposed to do in his Reform Bill with
do not announce that they will bring in any other measure small boroughs.
(hear hear) '• on the contrary, they state that in the present The house then resolved itself into a committee of
year it is not their intention to propose any other measure SUPPLY.
of reform, and they appeal to the country against the deci- On the vote of £2,000,000 to pay off Exchequer Bonds,
sion of this house. Now, is not that a distinct appeal upon payable in May, 1859,
the measure of the Government ? (Hear, hear.) Upon Mr. WILSON complained that they were called upon to
what possible question can it be an appeal if not upon their vote, almost as a matter of form, to renew the debt, instead
reform policy, upon their recent bill, and against the ad- of paying it off out of the ways and means of the year.
verse decision of the house in connection therewith. Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the object of the vote was to
(Hear.) They do not substitute any other measure, and still give authority to the Government to pay off a debt which
less do they state what that measure is to be • they simply would fall due when the house would not be sitting.
appeal against the decision of the house, and that decision After some further discussion the vote was agreed to.
was pronounced upon their existing Reform Bill. (Cries £13,277,400 for Exchequer Bills, charged upon the re-
of "Pip, no," and cheers.) venue of 1e59, £1,125,000 on account, for payments con
Sir J. PAKINGTON—It was a refusal to entertain the nected with the revenue department, were also voted.
question. On the vote of £1,856,000 on account for civil service
Sir C. LEWIS—The decision of the house was pro- charges,
nounced upon the two important characteristics of the bill. Mr. LINDSAY proposed to reduce the amount by
(Hear.) Those two points were selected for the decision of £lO,OOO, the amount proposed for Kingstown Harbour.
the house, and upon those two main points, which included Lord NAAS having explained that this sum was for
the most essential principles of the bill, the house decided works already in progress,
against the Government. (Hear.) Observe what was the The amendment was withdrawn.
conduct of Lord Grey's Government in 1831, when they ap- Mr. E. JAMES drew attention to the large arrears in
pealed to the country upon the subject of their Reform Bill. the Probate and Divorce Court.
That is the case which is most exactly in point. Lord Grey's The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the only remedy
Government brought in a bill that was condemned by the was to appoint more judges. The arrangement for the
House of Commons by a considerable majority. The assistance of the common law judges having failed, he
course pursued then was very similar to that which has could hold out no hope that a remedy could be provided in
been taken in the present instance. Upon going into corn- the present session.
mittee a resolution was moved, condemning one of the After a few words from Mr. MALINS,
most important parts of the bill, and it was carried, as I The vote was agreed to.
have said, by a considerable majority. The Government THE NAVY ESTIMATES.
never for a moment pretended to say that that was not a Sir T. PAK INGTON—This is the last vote connected
condemnation of their bill. They stood by the bill ; they
went to the country upon the well-known cry, " The bill, with the Civil Service, and it now becomes my duty to pro-
the whole bill, and nothing but the bill." No other issue pose certain votes on account of the navy estimates. It
was raised ; the country pronounced in their favour, and its may be remembered that I recently announced to the house
representatives came to this house, knowing what they had my intention to lay upon the table the reports of certain
promised to vote upon. (Hear.) A dissolution is now
about to take place. I want to know upon what it is to committees. Among these were the report of a committee
take place. (Hear.) Up to the present moment no issue which I had appointed on the machinery of the navy ; and
has been raised either here or elsewhere beyond this—that I also proposed to introduce the report of the committee on
the country is asked to express its confidence in the Go- our dockyard expenditure, and the report of a confidential
vernment, in consequence of the policy which they have c
adopted on the subject of reform. Can they put any other committee appointed by the Government to investigate the
c
issue before the country ? Can they say that they ask the causes of the great increase which has taken place in the
confidence of the people in respect of a policy which they naval expenditure of the country. At the same time I in-
are about to pursue upon the subject of reform ? No such timated my intention to lay on the table a statement on the
thing. (Cheers.) Here is their bill ; it was condemned part of the Surveyor of the Navy with reference to the elle-
more or less by every member who spoke in the recent de- gations of the noble lord the member for Sandwich (Lord
bate, whether on this or the other aide of the house, and
upon its merits ministers appeal to the country. (Hear, C. Paget). In consequence, however, of the sudden change
hear.) Surely they do not go to the country simply upon of affairs I wish to intimate to the house the course I pro-
the question whether they shall retain their offices. That pose to take in reference to these four important documents.
is not a question upon which an appeal can be made to the I am sorry to say that it will not be in my power to corn-
constituencies. Some principle—something beyond a mere
municate to the present Parliament the report of the Com-
vague expression of confidence—must be implied in an ap-
peal. (Hear, hear.) Gentlemen on this side are not re- mittee on Dockyard Expenditure, as they have not yet
sponsibie for the step about to be taken. A bill was sub- completed their labours; but the three other reports I laid
witted for our consideration, and we rejected it. We have upon the table three or four evenings since. I wish to take
been told.ehat in doing so we showed a want of respect to this opportunity of stating that which I ought to have
the Crown. Observe what hon. gentlemen opposite did last
year with respect to the India Bill. Arecoramendationfrom mentioned on an earlier day—namely, that Sir Baldwin
the CroVen was made to this house to consider the question Walker has repeatedly expressed to me his anxious desire
of India. The Goverrtment prepared a bill carrying that to face, in the most candid and open, and, as far as he is
recommendation. into effect, and what was the course pnr- concerned, the most prompt manner the statements made
sued by. hon. gentlemen pposite ? Why, they would not by the noble and gallant officer. So far as Sir Baldwin
allow us. even to read theelsill a first time, and they met us
by a resolution precisely similar to that to which so much Walker is able to meet those statements in writing he has
object ion has been lately taken. The only distinction, in done so. In his reply, which will be in the hands of members
fact, between the two cases is, that in the one they in a few days, the Surveyor of the Navy has gone fully into
even refused to allow the Government to lay their bill on the allegations of the noble lord that £5,000,000 of public
the table, while in the other we reserved our opposition to money have been wasted in reckless expenditure during the
the second reading, the proper time for it. (Hear, hear.)
To say; after a debate of seven nights, which was virtually last 11 years, and that with respect to certain ships therehas
a debate upon the second reading of the bill, that we have been a reckless and unnecessaryexpenditme in altering them
been gmity of disrespect to the Crown, is one of the most from time to time while in course of construction. On the
monstrous attemp Parliamentmosing upon the credulity of the
country which myary experience can furnish. part of Sir B. Walker and the shipbuilding department, and
I s going to say of the Admiralty, though the present
(Cheers.) We have merely exercised our constitutional
. .
right to-consider and reject a measure proposed, not by the Board have had so little to do with the matter that it would
Crown, but by the Government, whose acts we are at liberty be more correct to say on the part of our predecessors in
to canvass and criticise in every possible way. Upon them office, I regret that the sudden dissolution of the present
lies the responsibility of the bill itself and of the dissolution
it out of my power to pursue the course
which they have recommended, and the real issue which Parliament has put
the country has to decide is—does the Reform policy of the which I certainly should otherwise have taken—namely, to
Governirient, as expressed in that bill, entitle them to the move the appointment of a committee, constituted in the
confidence of the public ? (Cheers.) fairest manner ossible, to inquire into the truth of the alle-
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The right hon, gentleman ap- p
pears to be labouring under a misapprehension as to what gallons made by the noble and gallant lord, and to ascertain
fell from me upon a former occasion I never said anything how far they were borne out by the facts. I fear that, in
so absurd as, that any want of respect was shown to the the present state of public affairs, I have no alternative. It
Crown in not entertaining the Reform Bill, but I did say is indispensably necessary to await the assembling of a new
that the language of the noble lord the member for Tiver- Parliament e
ton, on the subject of a dissolution, trenched:upon the Royal gated bya copernanfor'ettteheeosef serious statements
house,state man I must thereforeents can be investi-
d
prerogative,
and was wanting in respect to the Crown. limit
myself to
Sir C. LEWIS-1 did not refer to the remark of the right the expression of a hope that the written
hon. baronet, that the language held by my noble friend on reply made by Sir Baldwin Walker will have the effect of
the subject of a dissolution was disrespectful to the Crown. removing the erroneous impressions which the speech of the
What I alluded to was an expression used both here and noble and gallant officer created. lam quite sure that it
elsewhere, to the effect that we showed a want of respect to will induce the public and
the Crown in not entertaining the measure of reform pro-the house to suspend their judg-
ment until an inquiry can take
Posed by the Government. Such an expression was used, place ; but I hope
the in-
and I repeat it is entirely erroneous. (Hear, hear.) formation furnished is so full as entirely to dispel these 1121-
'l*. OSBORNE did not rise to discuss the question of pressions. gy lion, friend Mr IL Willoughby) asks for an