The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-20 00:00:00

!WEDNESDAY `A-EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1861.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

neglected a great and important duty. As to piracy, the
Chinese flag was not protected as it ought to be ; but the
British Government had done its best to suppress it, as
would be seen from the accounts which from time to time
appeared in the papers of the gallant exploits performed
in its suppression. No doubt the Treaty of Nankin led to
the present treaty, which was an extension of it. There
were many difficulties connected with our dealings with the
Chinese, as there always would be when barbarism and
civilisation came into contact. The only way for us to be
at' peace with Asiatics was to keep away from them.
(Laughter.) This was true of Turkey, China, and Japan.
The fact was, that the Chinese Government brought the
war upon itself by its treachery and continued insincerity.
(Hear, hear.) If we submitted to the insults and evasions
of Asiatics, they would gradually increase ; we must there-
fore enforce directly the observance of treaties entered into
with us. He quite admitted that when those treaties were
enforced, they shook the fabric of the Government of
China; but what was to be done? (Hear.) If the strict
observance of treaties were not enforced, we could not have
intercourse with China at all. It seemed impossible for
us to have intercourse with Asiatics without quarrelling.
(Hear and laughter.) If we once rave way we were sure
to be beaten by the wiles of Asiatic diplomacy, and
then we had to cut the Gordian knot with the sword.
His noble friend had drawn a lamentable picture of the
condition of China, and he regretted to say that it was
not less lamentable than true. As to the rebellions not
having occurred before, or lasted so long, the fault was
that they had several times occurred before in the recorded
history of China, and had lasted so long as twenty or thirty
years at a time. There was nothing new, therefore, in that
respect of the present state of China. As to the oourse pur-
sued at Shanghae, our authorities did perfectly right to dc-
fend the lives and properties of our fellow-countrymen, and
he could not see what else they could have done under the
circumstances than that which they had done. (Hear.)
There was, at the same time, not the slightest intention on
the part of her Majesty's Government to interfere with the
civil commotions now raging in China—(hear, hear)—but
whenever our fellow-countrymen were menaced we should
always protect them. His noble friend said we were
likely to have the same troubles in Japan as in China.
We, however, had shown no disposition to quarrel with
Japan; we had raised no frivolous grievances, and though
we had kept at peace thus far, owing largely to the judg-
ment of Mr. Allcock—(hear)—he must say that we had
not met with that good will which his noble friend as-
cribed to the Japanese, but with all the distrust and chi-
canery of an Asiatic Government. His noble friend justly
eulogised the conduct of Lord Elgin, but was not willing to
accept his treaty. With regard to the indemnity, he could
not help regarding it as moderate under the circum-
stances—and more moderate than any demand ever made
under similar circumstances by one Government upon
another. Again, we had in our attack directed ourselves as
far as possible upon the central Government of China. The
general conduct of our troops was excellent, and the attack
upon the Summer Palace was amply justified. The loss of
life was comparatively small, and war had seldom been
carried on with less distress and injury on our part, while
the general conduct of the Chinese Government was any-
thing but calculated to raise that Government in our esti-
mation, it was barbarous ; and yet we did not impose upon
them a single additional condition. He should not follow
the noble earl into his general remarks further than to say
that he did not believe her Majesty's Government could
have pursued any other course than that which they had
adopted. (Hear.) The Government of China was emi-
nently a Government of centralisation. They would find
in the despatches that when Mr. Bruce spoke to Prince
Rung of the events at Shanghae, and of our policy, he
treated the matter as one of which he was altogether igno-
rant, thanking Mr. Bruce for having given him the infor-
mation. The communication of Prince Kung to Lord
Elgin and Mr. Brute showed that if the Chinese Govern-
ment could be enlightened as to the state of its coast pro-
vinces, it would in all probability pursue a sound and wise
policy in its relations with us. There was also a curious
document in which the Lieutenant-Governor of Shanghae
gave an account to the Emperor of the attack of the rebels
on that place. In that report not a word was said of the
assistance he had received from the European forces. He
declared that the repulse was entirely due to the local
troops, who all ran away at the outset. (Hear, and
laughter.) And in reply the Central Government stated
that they had given a red button to this man and a white
button to the other. (Continued laughter.) If the Cen
tral Government were so weak that no influence could be
brought upon it to enforce an observance of the condition
of the treaty, and if ruin should eventually come upon
the Government of Pekin, our relations with China
might be thrown into a state of great confusion. What he
maintained was, that in going to Pekin and concluding that
moderate treaty, they had made a wise, just, and righteous
effort to prevent the evils they had been discussing;
and as they would be careful to observe its conditions in
good faith, should those efforts fail, the responsibility
I would fall, not on themselves, but on the Chinese authori-
ties. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he was willing to
allow that debate to come to a termination without express-
ing his entire concurrence in everything that had fallen
from his noble friend who had just spoken. Ho thought
the rumoured intention of sending an expedition up the
Yang-tso-Kimag was one of the most important subjects
that could occupy the attention of the Government. If
we were permitted to go up the river by the Government,
and should be fired upon by the banditti—for they were
nothing but banditti who thus placed obstacles in our
way—we should be justified in using arms to remove any
obstruction we might find in our path. We might in that
incidental manner materially assist in restoring the
authority of the Chinese Government, by putting an end
to the combination of miscreants who desolated the
empire, and who added the prime of blasphemy to the
violation of women and the destruction of men in their
works. Only in that way could we hope to make any atone-
ment for the misery we had brought upon China, and the
outrages on humanity which had marked our conduct in
that part of the world. (Hear, hear.)
After some remarks from Lord GREY in reply, the
motion was agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
it five o'clock.

THE INDIAN ARMY.

Lord WYNFORD asked the noble lord opposite (Earl
De grey), with reference to the recent changes in the orga-
nisation of the Indian army, whether officers, when they
received an appointment tc the staff corps in India, would
proceed immediately to take up their position in the army,
so that promotion might go on rapidly from the regiments
from which they had been withdrawn ?

Earl 1)E GREY said that, without being in a position to
explain the whole of the arrangements contemplated, it had
been decided that, whereas under the system existing pre-
vious to the proposed changes, officers appointed to the staff
corps had been left on the roll of their regiments,
the same course would be, for the present, adopted, and
such opportunity would nct be considered to create regi-
mental vacancies.

CHURCH RATES.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH gave notice that on
Friday next he should introduce a bill to amend the law re-
lating to Church Rates.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a second time :—Aloa Rail-
way, Bonelli's Electric Telegraph, Clitheroe Gas, Corn-
wall Railway, Dewsbury and Batley Gas; Dumfries, Loch-
maben, and Lockerby Junction Railway (Deviation) ; Dum-
blane, Doune, and Callendar Railway ; Edinburgh, Perth,
and Dundee; Grand Junction Water; Kinross-shire Rail.
way, North British and Peebles Railway, Portsea Gas,
South Essex Water, Southwark and Vauxhall Water, &c.
INDICTABLE OFFENCES (METROPOLITAN DIS-
TRICTS) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.

FICTITIOUS SAVINGS' BANKS.
This bill also passed through committee.

CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICES BILL.
This bill passed through committee.

THE WAR IN CHINA.
Earl GREY rose to move that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty for copies or extracts of any
despatches received by her Majesty's Government explain-
ing the objects of an expedition reported to have been
ordered to proceed up the Yang-tze-kiang, and to call the
attention of the house to the papers relating to
China laid before it by the command of her
Majesty. He said, in moving for the papers mentioned, he
had no intention of pressing for them if the Government
opposed the motion for their production. His great
object was to bring the subject of China before their
lordships fer discussion, and had any other noble lord in-
timated that he intended to bring the subject forward he
should not have taken upon himself to do so. He
did not propose to dilate upon the disasters at
the mouth of the Peiho, nor upon the events which
might have happened had that catastrophe been avoided, but
what he wished to do was to call attention to the present
condition of our relations with China, and in acquiting
himself of the task it would be necessary, for him to
look back on the history of our past intercourse with China.
When China was originally opened to our commerce, the
spur given to trade was great, though not so
great as had been expected. In the beginning of his
remarks he must say that he considered the Eng-

lish Government had no.: more right to interfere with
the regulations of trade laid down in China, any
more than it had to interfere with those of France or
Spain. ,For a time all things went on quietly,
but at last a circumstance occurred by which we
considered ourselves justified in forcing a change, and by
farce and corruption we re-established a large smuggling
trade in :opium. At the conclusion of the Chinese war
large concessions had to be made by the Chinese,
and as we had completely subdued them, they
had to accept auy terms that might be dictated to
them. In consequence of the large concessions
that had been obtained by treaty, traffic in opium
had been resumed, and ever since it had been re-
garded as a regular article of commerce by the Bri-
tish Government. The whole of the trade of China
became in consequence demoralised, and no attempt
to correct abuses was made, but, on the contrary,
the consuls ♦ied with each other in their efforts
to impose their frauds on the Chinese Government.
But a much worse trade had sprung up, he referred to the
trade in Coolies. The Coolie trade had been vigorously
carried on, and a system of gambling had been carries to
an extent that many unfortunate Coolies had gambled
away their liberty. In one case a widow was possessed of
two children ; the son gambled away his liberty, and the
mother, anxious to redeem her son, actually sold her other
child, a daughter; but when she went to release her boy
she found he had been shipped to a European colony.
Lord Grey then endeavoured to prove that our policy in
China had injuriously affected our pecuniary interests, argu-
ing that the state of anarchy and rebellion, which checked
all internal commerce and communication in China, and
the smuggling and piracy on her coasts, dated from the
treaty of Nankin and the opium war. Judging from the
past, he said it was impossible not t 9 perceive that the re-
cent treaty exacted by Lord Elgin was a further step in the
wrong curection, and would produce like results. At the
conclusion of the, opium war, when the Chinese resources
were unimpaired, we had required only £3,000,000, but
now, after a long rebellion and a costly war, we asked
£5,300,000. How was this sum to be paid without weak-
ening the Chinese Government so much that the empire
must at last collapse—a result by no means desirable
even from a low point of view, that of interest ? The
object of the expedition up the Yang-tae was to
overawe the rebels, but in doing so the Government
would be trying to stop abuses which they themselves had
fostered, and he warned them that their efforts would be
useless unless they were prepared to maintain a large and
permanent military force in China. The treaty which had
been concluded with China by Lord Elgin contained the
germs of future difficulties, and he feared of future wars;
and he begged their lordships to consider the matter seri-
ously, the more so as the same events were likely to take
place in Japan, where similar abuses existed. This country.
he asserted, might, had a different policy been pursued,
have obtained, without war or violence, the means of car-
rying on a large and profitable commerce with China. As
it was, we had inflicted the horrors of war on the Chinese
at an enormous expense to ourselves, and left our trade on
even a more precarious footing than it was before. In con-
clusion he expressed his regret that we had not, before act •
ing in conjunction with the French, ascertained whether
the French grievance was a just one.
Lord WODEHOUSE said he would offer some remarks
upon certain portions of the noble earl's speech ; and, first,
he would observe that he had no objection to the production
of the papers moved for, and to lay them,*or extracts from
them, upon the table of their lordships' house. As to any in-
terference on the part of this country in the insurrection in
China, Lord Elgin had said that he would not at all inter-
fere in the quarrel that was going on between • the insur-
gents and the Imperial Government, except for the purpose
of making arrangements with regard to trade. That inti-
mation had been conveyed to the Imperial Government,
and no objection had been made to Lord Elgin doing so.
With reference to what the noble earl had said about
Wee Treaty of Nankin in 1842, he must say that the noble
earl had given an exaggerated statement of the conse-
quences, and had not taken into account the difficulties
they had to contend with, for the Government of this
country had done their best to carry out the provisions of
that treaty in a proper spirit. The first point in the Treaty
of Nankin was with reference to the question of opium.
Practically it was inevitable that the opium traffic must be
carried on in China, and he believed that the regulations
under which it was now legalised were the best that could
be framed. As to the customs duties, that was a very
embarrassing question. We were bound by the Treaty of
Nankin to assist the Chinese Government in enforcing the
duties payable by our merchants ; whereas other nations
would undertake no such obligations, and the consequence
was that a system of inequality was established, which
became intolerable. Unscrupulous men evaded the pay-
. ment of the duty, whilst honest English merchants paid it,
and were thereby placed in a position in which they could
not carry on their trade with advantage. We therefore
took measures, first at Shanghae, and afterwards at other
ports, by means of the foreign inspectorships, to enforce
the payment of these duties, the collection of which was
superintended by Chinese officials net in any way depen-
- dent upon foreign Governments. Under these regulations,
as Mr. Bruce had pointed out, the Chinese Government
had received no less a sum than a million pounds sterling.
As to the noble earl's charge, that our consular establish-
ment had not done their duty previous to the establishment
of these inspectorships, he quoted from a despatch from Mr.
Bruce, in which that gentleman stated that " Her Majesty's
consuls had omitted no effort to insure thepaTment of these
duties by imposing fines upon British merchants who
omitted to do so—a system by which he incurred the odium
of our fellow-countrymen by inflicting penalties on them to
which the subjects of other Governments were not liable."
(Hear.) Moro than this we could not do. We could not
make the Chinese Government strong and incorrupt.
(Hear.) He agreed with the noble earl as to the iniquities
of the emigration system, but the Government had done
what it could to put an end to the system of kidnapping
which was going on, and which was gradually irritating the
Chinese population against us, and their efforts had not been
without some success. Mr. Austin, a gentleman well ac-
quainted with emigration to the West Indies, was sent out,
and under his judicious superintendence an excellent sys-
tem had been organised. This system secured the confi-
dence of the population, and whole families now emigrated,
including some 300 or 400 women, who never before could
be got to emigrate at all. These women were moreover of
the respectable class. All this was done, not merely with
the approbation of the people, but with the full consent of
the Chinese authorities, and an end was put to the systematic
kidnapping. The Government should be extended to other
ports than Canton, and with that view had communicated
with other European Governments, and with the Govern-
ment of the United States. This was one of the most im-
portant points of the Chinese question, and should there be
any Government refusing to co-operate with us he must say
that a grave responsibility would rest upon it for having

THE CASE qF MR. TURNBULL.
The Earl of SHAFT ESBURY moved for a copy of the
memorial presented by the Protestant Alliance to the
Foreign Secretary. The noble earl said that the noble mar-
quis (Normanby) came down to make a motion on this sub-
ject, and he (the Earl of Shaftesbury) attended in his place
in order to give him his answer. The noble marquis, how-
ever, had put his motion off indefinitely; and as he (the
Earl of Shaftesbury) felt, as the president of the Protestant
Alliance, that he was under some personal charge in refer-
ence to this matter, he was led to take the earliest opportu-
nity of stating tha grounds upon which that body was
acting. First, they were charged with circulating the

memorial secretly, whereas he could show that a copy was
sent to Sir John Romilly as soon as it were issued. Then
it was said that they had charged Mr. Turnbull with
having tampered with the public records entrusted
to him. They never made such a charge, and he
defied any one to put his finger on the passage where it
occurred. The third accusation was that they took
that course because Mr. Turnbull was a Roman Catholic.
He denied that it was so. With the views they had, and
the principles they proceeded upon, they would have felt
it their duty equally to proceed against a Protestant. He
hoped the noble marquis would state, as soon as possible,
what were the precise charges he had to make against the
Protestant Alliance and himself. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that the indignation
exhibited by the noble earl was perfectly unfounded. He
told the noble earl that he did not intend to bring forward
the charge, and he told him why he had delayed it ; namely,
first, because he thought it better, in the interests of jus-
tice, that an appeal should first be made to the Prime Minis-
ter, to see whether he, acting under the inspiration of the
noble earl and of the Protestant Alliance, would disregard
the remonstrance of the high legal functionary who had
expressed his sense of the eminent qualities possessed by
Mr. Turnbull; that that gentleman, so admirably fitted for
the duties of the office to which he had been appointed,
should be removed from it on the mere ex parte statements
of the Protestant Alliance. One word as to what had
passed within the last two days. lie accused the Protes-
tant Alliance, on the testimony of the noble earl himself,
of having published that which they must have known to
be a misstatement. They published in their monthly state-
ment these words :—" That Mr. Turnbull was engaged in
writing the religious history of the reign of Queen Mary."
Now, that was distinctly a false statement, and it was ad-
mitted to be so by the noble earl himself, as appeared from
his confession in the public journals of that morning. The
noble earl, however, need be under no apprehension that he
did not mean to bring forward those charges, for it was im-
portant that it should be known whether a person, because
he was supposed to entertain strong religious opinions,
should be prevented from fulfilling a duty for which he was
in every respect so peculiarly qualified. lie could not,
however, fix a day at present. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that if there
was to be a discussion on this subject it would be a con-
venience to himself, and perhaps to other noble lords, if the
noble earl would produce some paper or document, or if
some papers were laid upon the table telling them what
the Protestant Alliance was. (Laughter.) He never heard
of it until that case had come before the public. The noble
earl represented that great Alliance in that house, which
had kindly undertaken the protection of the Protestant re-
ligion. (Renewed laughter.) He was greatly indebted to
them for their good intentions, but whether or not that was
a matter of practical advantage ; he was desirous to knew
what they were, who constituted them, and what they were
to expect from them. (Cheers.) When the noble earl was
asked to state the grounds of his charge against this unfor-
tunate gentleman, his answer was that he ma
no de no attack
was
upon his personal character. Well, then, if attack
made upon his personal character, it came to this—that a
man who had been selected by the Master of the Rolls for
his ability, and because he was eminently suited for a par-
ticular employment, was to be driven out of that employ-
ment because he was a pious Roman Catholic. If that was
the ground on which those proceadings had been taken, he
must say that though he was a Protestant as well as the
noble earl, he could not concur in the course adopted.
k The Marquis of NQIIMANDY said he would consult his