The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-29 00:00:00

tion of salaries ; whilst, on the 23 I of Joe-, the same
right hon. gentleman said that there had been a large
inc e Ise of salaries in altno:t eva:y branch of the public
service. (Hear.) The noble lord denied that his bill
was one for the benefit of the richer part of the service,
as it had been stated. His bill would effect the lower
class of servants—those receiving 1401 per annum and
less, and two-thirds of them would be found to be only
receiving 861. per annum. It was. therefore, he con-
tended a bill to benefit the poor clerks. (Hear.) The
noble lord characterised the present system as a tontine
of the worst description. It would be impossible for more
than 1 in 7 to receive any benefit from it. After referring
to many of the statements of the right hon. gentleman the
Under-Secretary for the Treasury in opposing the hi 1,
and also to what be called Mr. Wilson s ingenious cal-
culatiens, he said that the right hon. gentleman on a
former occasion said that 1,600 servants of the civil eel.-
vice received superanuations amounting to 606,0001,
whilst the military pensions only amounted to 568,0001,
but the right hon. gentleman omitted to take i• to con-
sideration the out-pensioners, amounting to 1,169,000/ ,
which made the expenses of the non-effec:ive service of
the army amount to upwards of two millions. The noble
lord said that the c oninittee referred to recommended
that there should be a toted aboliti n of deductions
from the civil service for superanuation, without a con.
re,pending reduction in their salaries ; and he appealed
to the house to carry out that, as will as the other re-
commendations of the committee, from a belief that the
present system onestit no longer to he maintained.
Mr. GLADSTONE admit ed the rights of the civil
servants to a fell end respectful hearing, and a clear and ;
definitive understanding rehreive to their grievances. It 1
was material that the house and the Government should I
hold intelltible language on the subject, and he could
not doubt that the Government intended to maintain
the remuneration to the civil servants on the present.
basis, and such a statement he expected the Chancellor
of the Exchequer wool I clearly and explicitly make this
day, lie contended that the house were capaple of de-
ciding on this question without the aid of arbitra'ors,
and he regretted that the whole subject bad been del -
gated to a Royal Commission, and ho earnestly pro-
tested against it, being no party to the arrangement,
fie admitted that the statistical part of the question
might have been salfactotily referred to a corn-
tnis:iion. Sir Charles Treveliyan -did not fix
these solatise, as had been stated, hut the
Finance Minister of the day, and as he (Mr. My-%
gone) hell that position at the time he was responsible
for it, and he made that statement before the committee.
The right hon. gentleman said that ho could see no diff,-
rence between the noble lord's bill, and an indi,-crimi-
nate increase of salaries to those entitled to superannua-
tion, and that it was diametrically opposed to the deci-
sion of the committee of the house. Referring to the
increase of public salaries, the right hon gentleman said
that when they began to tamper with the rights of the
public in matters of this kind, the extravagance did int
..top. It was not content to feed on its first food, but it
spread from one subject to another arid ran through
every department of the public expenditure, and they
had now the first fruits in that house, probably from
the laxity of their votes. If they gave way the move-
ment would produce many fruits. There appeared aleo
to be a tendency to increase political salaries, but should
it make its appearance in that house he woul I be the first
to oppose it. It had been said that the pensions to be paid
from these deductions would not exhaust the whole of
the proceeds of the funds, but he contended that that
fact had not been established, and if it had it would not
affect the question before the house. The right hon.
gentleman then proceeded to eater into the original in-
tentions of the parties who framed the bill, which he
said had been misapprehended, and had teen the cause
of the present movement, and observed the deductions
were imposed in lieu of a diminution of salaries, which
would at the time more than have exhausted the amount
of the deductions. There had been no prima facie case
made out that the civil servants were entitled to the
reloretion of these deductions, and to demand of Parlia-
ment an increase of salary by the abolition of this
charge. They had also to consider the public in this
case ; and he said, in reference to the average of salaries
paid by the Bank of England and the Crown, that
the salaries cf those who were paid for ma-
nual labour bad wrongly been taken into ac-
account, which had greatly reduced them, but if they
omitted that class, he contended it would be found that
the civil servants were paid higher than any others, and
so far from being under-paid they would he found to be
well paid. This bill proposed to add 75,0001. a year to the
expenditure of the Government. It was a small sum, '
it was true, but it granted it would spread to every de-
partment A proposition such as that before the house
for the increase of bile salaries for one-third of the civil
servants could not have been moved constitationally by
the noble lord in committee, and he ought net to have
adopted this course to attain that object. He called on
the house to reject the second reading of this bill.
Mr. DISRAELI concurred in much that bad been
said by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone).
He reviewed the proceedings of Parliament and the com-
missioners in reference to this question, and added that
he believed the noble lord bad taken a wise course in ask-
ing the house, by his bill, to decide the question.
(Hear, hear.) Ile dissented from the statement that
because the proposed increase was given to 16,000
civil servants, that the other departments should
also be increased, or that it prevented Par-
liament from revising the various salaries of the different
departments of the State. The political salaries bad
been revised and some reduced. He hoped the noble
lord would press his bill and settle the question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
question before the house ought to be considered as a
question of feeling, equity, and expediency. As re-
regarded
the first, if he consulted his personal feelings he '
could do no more act gratifying to him than accede to
the second reading of the bill, but his public duties pre-
vented his doing so. The right honourable gen-
tleman referred to the introduction of his bill on a
former occasion which was referred to a committee, and
the discussion that had taken place on the question. He
denied that the civil service servants bad any claim in
justice, or on the grounds of expediency, for what they
asked. He further contended that there was no
grounds for increasing the salaries as proposed
by this bill, or, at all events, that the higher
priced clerks deserved a greater increase than
the lesser paid. clerks. He called upon the house
to negative the second reading of the bill.
The house then divided—the numbers were—
For the second reading , l7l
Against it

Majority for second reading 6O
The announcement was received v.ith loud cheers.
The bill was -ead a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow night.