The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-12 00:00:00

375 ; and embodied militia, 23,218 ; total, 109,640 ; or, ex-
cluding th e embodied militia, 86,422. The officer, who stated
he commanded a regiment (a fact which he very much
doubted) described the artillery as being in a disgraceful
state. What was the fact ? The number in this country was
14,500, and besides that, there were 5,000 militia artillery,
and he had the authority of the Commander-in-Chief and
Adjutant-General for stating that the force was in a state
of superior efficiency. In addition to the 180 guns attached
to the batteries there were 110 guns in store fully equipped
with their ammunition waggons, so that he was justified in
saying that the artillery was in a far more efficient state
than it had been for many years past. (Hear.)
THE NAVAL ESTIMATES.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that having devoted soma time to
the consideration of the estimates he was anxious to offer a
few observations on them. They were above those of any
year of peace for the last 40 years. He would not compare
them with those for 1835 or any year about that time. He
would take as a comparison those of 1852, the year before
we commenced preparations for the Russian war. In 1852
the navy estimates amounted to £5,Q8,000 ; this year they
were £12,862,000, being an, increase of £7,200,000. They
were told that the increase in the navy estimate
was owing to the introduction of a new element
into naval warfare by the invention of the screw.
(Hear.) That was introduced in 1851; in 1852 we had
five screw line-of-battle ships. France had two for that
year. The Government of this country and that of France
had run a race in building ships. What was the result ? It
appeared that this cotratry and France were as regarded
line-of-battle ships at the present time on an equality;
whilst France, as regarded frigates, had eight more. They
were informed 1.4. the late First Lord and by the present Se-
cretary tothe Admiralty that next year this country would
have 50 -of-battle ships, and France only 40 ; but as she
wouldi:Lave more cased vessels, there would in reality be
sear,,ely any difference. The naval expenditure of France
fP:r this year was only £4,920,000 ; that of this country was
£13,297,000. Last year the expenditure exceeded the amount
voted by £200,000. The bounty of £lO for able seamen had
been now offered for three or four months, but only 1,400
men had joined, although the hon. member for Sunderland
had informed them that owing to the depression in the
mercantile marine, crowds of these men were wandering
about the streets ; why did they not enter the navy ? The
cause was to be found in the existence of the degrading
system of flogging. By the returns which he had moved
for, he found that on board one ship, the Princess Royal,
no less than 53 men were flogged last year, receiving 2,141
lashes. In some ships only one man was flogged, and in a
few none at all. This difference could not be produced by
any difference in the character of the men, it must be owing
to the difference in the character of the captains ; some were
humane beings, others were heartless tyrants. Such a man
as the captain of the Princess Royal would not get his ship
manned in a lifetime, if his character was known; such
were not men of first-rate, pluck; humanity and courage
always went together. From the army returns it appeared
that last year 112 men were flogged, receiving 5,200 lashes,
but in the navy in 1854 the number was 1,214, receiving
35,800 lashes ; of these only 196 were inflicted by sentence
of a court-martial ; in 1855 the number of lashes in-
flicted was 42.000, of which only 406 were by order
of court-martial ; in 1856 the number was 44,000, of
which only 619 were by sentence of a court ; in 1857, the
last year for which there was a return, the number was
35,000, of which 334 were ordered by courts-martial. He
was convinced this was the great impediment to the entry
of men ; if it were necessary to maintain the system of
flogging, let the army rule be introduced that the punish-
ment can only be inflicted by the sentence of a court-mar-
tial. (Hear.) It was stated that the crew of the American
frigate Constitution, which took the Java, the first capture
made in the war of 1814, was entirely composed of men who
' had been in the British navy, and every one of whom had
been flogged. He had seen Commodore Stewart, the com-
mander of the Constitution, at Philadelphia, and he., told
him that to get men for the navy of this country ;:c would
be absolutely necessary to alter the system of Plitnishment.
He was anxious to see the navy in such a s4-ate as would
remove the apprehension of even the 17110,0",, nervous
in this country—(hear)—and therefore person
would not oppose
any of the proposed votes. (Hear,
THE BOUNTY T kear.)
o
SEAMEN.
Sir C. NAPIER said he ha.:.t read with great satisfac-
tion the speeches of Lords,
Lyndhurst, Hardwicke, and
Elienborough in another place, and he could wish that
more speeches of the 'same kind were delivered in the
House of Commons. They all knew what extraordinary
victories had been wined kby the Emperor of France ;
and they also khew that his army arrived in Italy
chiefly by sea, -with such celerity that the Emperor of Aus-
tria could not collect troops as fast in his own territory.
An armistice had been signed, but he didnot think it would
be advantageous to this country for peace to be esta-
blished between Austria and France. It would release the
troops of France from their present employment, and, con-
sidering the feelings of the French people towards this
country, it was impossible to say what might take place
hereafter amidst all the joy of victory. He did not want to
say a single word which might tend to foster bad feelings
between France and this country; but he had a duty to
perform which was paramount. He knew very well that
British sailors would fight to the last for their liberties.
(Hear.) He had no doubt whatever that if British slips
were well manned—if the men were well disciplined and
properly drilled, the ships would be like those of former
days ; but that required time, and he had seen, with grief
that sailors had not come forward in sufficient numbers to
enable the British navy to defy the whole world. The Sec-
retary of the Admiralty had told them what was the force
of their own fleet, but he wanted Wan to tell them distinctly
what was the force of the Frencl and of the Russian fleet
ready for service. It was no use concealing the truth; if
there was danger the country ought to be made aware of it.
He did hope that the ne:tion would never again insist on a
reduction of the fleet, but always have it kept up to a suffi-
cient point for defence, whether the country was at peace or
at Wig. (Hear.) As regarded flogging in the army, he had
deeply regrrAted to find from the returns read by the hon.
member for Lambeth, that so much flogging had lately
take lace. There was nothing like it when he corn-
, Manded in the Baltic, and he had no idea that flogging had
been carried on to so great an extent. He did no believe cor-
poreal punishment could be entirely done away with in the
navy ; but he thought a great change should take place in
the form of proceeding. He was in favour of introducing
courts-martial in the navy, and he believed that such an
alteration, instead of weakening discipline would strengthen
it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY was sorry that the hon. and gallant ad-
miral should have made a speech which was so calculated to
alarm the country. He could not see what advantage the
Emperor Napoleon could gain by invading this country.
As regarded the bounty, while he considered the giving
of a bounty of £lO in time of peace a grave error, he thought
it was no less grave an error to give half the amount to the
men already in the navy, who would not, he feared, be
satisfied without the full amount.
In reply to a question from Mr. LYG.ON,
Lord PALME ftSTON said the Government would pro-
pose to go into Committee of Supply on Thursday.
The house then went into Committee of supply.
On the vote of £3,000 for additional expenses for clerks
in the Admiralty,
Lord C. PAGET was proceeding to make some remarks
in reply on the subject of the bounty, when
Sir J. PAKINGTON rose to order, observing that he
had himself been called to order by the Speaker for being
irregular, and that the noble lord was still more so in speak-
ing in reference to the bounty when the vote before the
committee had reference to the clerks.
Sir C. NAPIER said a far less number of clerks would
suffice if so many unneccessary letters were not written.
His appointment to the command of the Baltic fleet was
annowdeed to him in eight or ten letters.
Sir J. PAKINGNON defended the vote.
Mr. LINDSAY thought that instead of an increase there
ought to be a reduction of the number of clerks. There
were no less than 440 clerks and messengers. It would be
well to get rid of inefficient clerks and pay the heads of de-
partments better.

The vote was'''' agreed to.
On the vote of MOO,OOO for volunteer seamen,
Mr. LINDSAY wished to know when the promised bill
for providing for manning the navy would be brought in.
When it was introduced he should wish to discuss the
whole question.

Lord e. PAGET could not at that moment answer the
question. The matter was of such great importance that,
although it was now under discussion at the Admiralty,
some time must elapse before the measure could be brought
before the house.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the bounty to new sea •
men had been already voted by the house on Friday last.
It was a portion of the vote of MB,OOO then taken.
Mr. HENLEY thought that bounty
might have a mate-
rial operation on the navy either for good or evil and he
therefore considered that When the bill to which reference
had been made was brought in the whole question should
be considered.

The vote was agreed to.
THE WAR MONEY:.
y Agreed to.
X 41,358, salaries of officers,
£103,089, salaries and contingenciesnlv 'at home.—Agreed
to. 8
£20,083, naval establishments abroad.—Agreed to.
£1,077,782, artificers, labourers, &c., in the various dock
yards at home.
In answer to a question from Mr. LINDSAY,
Lord C. PAGET was understood to say that the report
of the dockyard commission would shortly be presented to
the house.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that this was a vote which the
present Government had increased. The late Government
had engaged 1,300 extra shipwrights, taking the_ra:on for six
months, which they thought would be quite sufficient to set
up all the repairs, and to convert the sailing ships. The
Government had acted on the advice of the Surveyor pf the
Navy, and he trusted that the present Government had also
consulted that officer as a preliminary to asking an addition
of £lOO,OOO to the vote.
Lord C. PAGET thought that there must have been a
misunderstanding between the right hon. baronet and the
Surveyor of the Navy on the subject. He (Lord C. Paget)
had consulted that gentleman, and his explanation was that
in the beginning of May he was asked what number of men
should be taken on to accomplish certain works. The sur-
veyor never contemplated that they would be taken off at
the end of six months, and he recommended that they should
be kept on for the whole of the financial year.
The vote was agreed to.
£39,330, wages to artificers, &c., in establishments abroad,
was also agreed to.
£2,117,131 for naval stores, building and repair of ships,
and steam machinery.
Mr. LINDSAY had heard that the supply of anchors to
the navy was, and had been since 1841, confined to one per-
son, and that while the market price as charged by the
most eminent makers was £5O 10s. a ton for 50 cwt. anchors
and £3O a ton for 5 ton anchors the Admiralty were paying
£73 and £44 10s. a ton respectively. He also wished to
know why the report of the committee which sat seven years
ago to inquire into the best description of anchors for the
use of the navy, and which declared that the anchor now in
use, and for which the Admiralty were paying so much,
was the worst that could be adopted, had not been actel
upon. He had a communication from the patentees of Trot-
man's patent anchor, offering to test one of his 50 cwt. an-
chors, the cost of which was £9O, against any 5 ton anchors
in any of the dockyards, the cost of which was £365. Again,
he believed that the manufacture of steam engines for the
navy was confined to two or, three firms, who were charg-
ing to the Admiralty considerably more for horse power
than other eminent firms were willing to supply them for.
Mr. RIDLEY inquired whether the investigation com-
menced some time ago as to the relative value of north
country and Welsh coals for the use of the navy had been
continued ? The question of smoke-consuming furnaces
was now no longer a difficulty, consequently smoke emitting
coals might be used if in other respects found to be equally
applicable. He believed there was one steam-vessel now
being built without any tunnel at all.
Lord LOVAINE urged that attention should be paid to
this subject, being as he thought of most vital importance.
He thought some change should be made in the manner of
coaling her Majesty's steam-vessels.
Mr. -BENTINCK said that the question raised with re-
gard to anchors was one of great importance. It was not a
question of one person's anchor over anther's; but as re-
garded the best description being obtained for the navy. A
committee had reported in 1852 in favour of six different