The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-17 00:00:00

proposed some resolutions by way of amendment to
the motion of going' into Gilnrui,tee of Supply, in
order t provide for the expenes of the Persian
war. Th so resolutions may be c•.uctiod in ,tronv.
That is of c arse a qu-"tion of d-grtee
of Hui,: moment, but no hon. gentleman will pretend

that they do not embody a constitutional principle
(hear, hear), or that that principle is not expressed in
nervous, proper, and parliamentary language. Whether
the resolutions apply to the circumstances of the case
whether the inference which the hon, and learned gentle-
men bas drawn is sufficiently sustained by the premises,
are questions meet and fit for parliamentary discussion ;
but fer proposing these resolutions, which assert the
privileges of Parliament and express a constitutional
principle acknow.edged even by her Majesty's Ministers
t e night, the hon. and learned gentleman is assailed in
tones of vituperation, and is toll he is taking an un-
English course. (Cheers.) The First Lori of the
Treasury, speaking of the Shah of Persia, said he had a
habit of boasting in his Durbar. Well there are other
great men who boat (loud laughter and cheers)—in
places which we were once fain to hope were almost as
august as the Durbar of a Persian king of kings
(laughter) ; but if the policy the noble lord recommends
were pursued I think the influence of Parliament would
be so much diminished that we might perhaps have to
veil our glories before the superior authority of a Persian
sovereign. The noble lord, having been accused of being
a most popular Mierster (a laugh), yields to the soft im-
peachment, and in the Persian style says, "True it
is, I am most popular (laughter, followed by cheers
from the Ministerial side) ; true it is that I possess the
confidence of the country, but what is the cause ?
(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) I know wby I
possess the confidence of the country. (Laughter and
cheers). It is," said the noble lord to the hon. and
learned member for Sheffield, "in consequence of your
resolutions." (Laughter.) Now, what were the reso-
lutions of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield ? I
remember several memorable occasions on which the
hon. and learned gentleman, unsupported by any per-
sonal following in this house, has proposed re.olutione.
I need scarcely remind the house of what e as, perhap-,
the most memorable occasion on which the hon. and
learned gentleman brought forward a resolution. It was
a resolution for an inquiry into the state of the English
army before the walls of Sebastopol. (Cheers.) Was
that an un-English resolution ? (Renewed cheers.) Was
it an unconstitutional resolution ? (Hear.) Why, the
noble lord, who was one of the guilty ministers, yielded
to the vote when that resolution was carried. (Cheers.)
Another resolution, almost equally memorable, and
which I am sure the noble lord cannot .have forgotten,
was also proposed by the hon. and learned gentleman.
The occasion was when the "turbulent and aggressive
p Jim" of the noble lord was properly brought under our
consideration by an eminent member of this house, and
when a large and powerful party, asserting, as I believe,
sound principles of policy---(cheers)— called upon the
House of Commons to seal with its strong reprobation
the iejurions policy of the noble lord. The hon. and
learned member for Sheffield then came forward with one
of his un-English resolutions, and by the aid of the hon.
and learned gentleman, and by a scant majority, the
mischievous career of the noble lord has continued.
(Cheers.) Now, as the noble lord has alluded to the
younger members of this house, I think they may learn
from this instance what gratitude they wit t xeerience
if, in future moments of delusion—(:s laugh). -desirous to
save a Minister from a difficulty or to extricate him
from a scrape—(laughter),—they come forward and
propose resolutions to assist the policy or to vindicate
the conduct of the noble lord. (Laughter) A few
years will pass, and hey will then be held up to the
scorn and ridicule of the house as the movers of un-
English resolutions. (Some cries of " Oh," cheers and
laughter.) Those who vindicate the privileges of Par-
liament—(cries of "Oh, oh")—aye, many of the hon.
gentlemen who in their present zeal utter those murmurs
. —(cheers and langhter)—and who I dare say are now
only too eager to come forward to vindicate the noble
lord—(cheers)---will learn from the lesson of to-night the
future that awaits them. (Laughter.) Now, let us see
whether the premises of the hon. and learned gentleman
justify the conclusion at which he asks the house to ar-
rive Seriously speaking, that conclusion is a very grave
one. ("Oh," and a laugh.) Why, surely, you would
not have me speak seriously of light matters ? I have
le. en answering the light part of the noble lord's speech
—(laughter)—and I am now about to address myself to
what ought to have been the grave portion of it. (Hear,
hear.) The conclusion suggested by the hon. and
learned gentleman is one of great gravity, and I am not
prepared to say that if tbat conclusion were established
—grave as it is—I, for one, should shrink from the re-
sponsibility of voting for it. 1 think we should place
ourselves in a very false position if we asserted our be-
lief that the privileges of this house had been violated by
the Ministry, and yet shrunk from the responsibility of
ceadenining their conduct ; but at the same time it is
necessary that we should scrupulously look to facts, and
see whether the conclusion we are called upon to adopt
is justified by the circumstances or premises alleged.
What is the language of the resolution? It calls upon us
to say—

" That the war with Persia was declared, prosecuted,
and concluded without information of such transactions
being communicated to Parliament."
Now is that the fact ? (Hear.) I perfectly agree that the
house has not been treated in this matter with that can-
dour which I think it would have been wise if the Minis-
ter, however popular and powerful, had exhibited. I
cannot, however, get over the fact that on the meeting
of Parliament, which might have been too long deferred,
and after an ambiguous silerce had, perhaps, been too
long maintained on the part of Government, there was
an announcement in the Speech from the Throne of a war
with Persia. (Ll,ar.) I feel that that was the occasion
—at the time the address was moved—when this
question ought to have been mooted. (Hear, bear.) I
do not at all agree with the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer or other hon. gentlemen, who maintain that this or
any other Indian wars do not require notice from Par-
liament ; but the fact that at the commencement of this
war an appeal was immediately made to the Exchequer
of this country marks it out from usual Indian wars.
(Hear, hear.) I cannot, however, agree that, as a
general principle, all Indian wars are to be taken from
the c mtrol of this house, even if an immediate appeal is
not made to the British exchequer. (Hear, hear.) The
basis of Indian finance is the credit of England ; and at
this moment, when we hear of the treasuries of India
being plundered, when no • no can tell by what machi-
nery the revenue of India can for some time be collect-
ed, we should have acted in a most indiscreet manner—
even if this bad been purely and strictly an Indian war
di a ttehe appealwwar to
ttoo
passtbewithout English exchequer
_
and discussion. There then, before us the important
without
f we
badan y
allowedim'nefact that at the beginning of the last session of the last
Parliament we were apprised that this war had been
undertaken. I cannot under these circumstances agree
to a resolution which alleges, "that the war with Persia
was declared, prosecuted, and concluded without infor-•
!nation of such transactions being communicated t Par-
liament." I think the Government acted unwisely and
erroneously in not communicating their policy to Parlia-
ment at an earlier period ; but I cannot agree that the
late Parliament was itself free from blame in allowing
the conduct of the Government to pass so long unnotic-
ed. (Hear.) Does it then become an assembly that has
been back ward in the fulfilment of its duty to agree to
a resolution of so uncompromising a character as
that proposed by the honourable and learned gentle-
man t I confess I cannot but feel that the honourable
gentleman is riedet in calling the attention of the
house to this subject. I wish he had done so in
a manner which would have allowed the expression
of our opinion to be of an unanimous character. I
cannot suppose that, wontever may happen, this
debate will be without profit to our privileges, but I
wish the hon. and learned gentleman would not call
upon us to divide upon this issue. (" Oh I oh l") It is
not fur me to counsel the hon. and learned gentleman,
but I shall follow the course which I think it is my duty
to follow. I do not think the premises in this case
justify the severe_ and sweeping conclusions at which he
has arrived, and therefore my course will be to vote that
the house do go into committee of supply. (Hear, hear.)
The house divided, when the numbers were—
For Mr. Roebuck's resolution s 3B
Against it
Majority

Some laughter followed the announcement of the num-
bers.

Mr. DISRAELI asked if the papers relating to the
mutiny in India would be laid on the table to-morrow
(this day.)
Mr. V. SMITH was understood to say" they would be
laid on the table on an early day.
The house then went into a committee of supply, pro
forma, when
The CHANCELLOR of the,EXCHEQUER acid he
should not at that late hour (a quarter to one o'clock)
ask the house to agree to the two resolutions which
stood on the paper in his name. He should move them
to-morrow OW evening in a committee of supply.
The house then resumed.
On the bringing up of the report of the committee of
supply,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked how the balance re-
maining unexpended of the sum voted for civil contin-
gencies, and which bad been accumulating fir several
years past, was to be appropriated ? He wished also to
know whether the Treasury claimed a power to autho-
rise expenditure without any examination of accounts,
and whether these accounts were audited ?
Mr. WILSON sail the balances of civil contingencies,
which had accumulated for some years,. had been paid
as savings into the Treasury, and an account would
be given year!), of thove balances. The Treasury claimed
no right to appropriate a single penny voted for civil con-
tingencies to any other purpose. At present the Civil
S-rvice Estimates were not audited, but he hoped an
airangernent would shortly be made to refer them to the
Board of Audit.
The report was then received.
FRAUDULENT TRUSTEES, Sze., BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
DULWICH COLLEGE BILL.
This bill was read a second time and ordered to be re-
ferred to a select committee. _ _