The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 27, 1861.

pact. There was a great objection to allowing French vessels
to go to our territories in India for the purpose of obtaining a
supply of labourers, and it was necessary that some steps
should be taken by which we should be assured that no coolies
were taken away except by their own consent, and that they
were properly cared for and treated on the voyage. (Hear.)
A treaty had been drawn up by which the French autho-
rities would be entitled to employ coolies from India. It
was said that in this treaty the English had given every-
thing and taken nothing, but that was not exactly the
ease. Our object being to put an end to the abominations
of the slave-trade, he thought we were right in allowing
the French to avail themselves of the labour of the coolies,
if by that means we could lessen the amount of slave traffic ;
and as soon as that treaty was ratified a copy of it would
be laid upon the table of the house. (Hear, hear.) There
was no doubt that the crime of slavery still existed. How
was it carried on, and what prevented its extinction? No
doubt much of the evil was produced by the corruption of the
authorities in Cuba and the apathy on the subject which
prevailed in Spain. Remonstrances had been made by the
English Government and Consuls from time to time.
Cruisers had been despatched, and orders issued, with the
view of checking the traffic. The answers received were,
that it was the intention of the Spanish Government to in-
terfere for its suppression,!but nothing satisfactory had been
done. At Cuba, even when a cargo of slaves was landed,
an answer was given by the authorities that they had made
inquiries and were unable to trace the fact of the landing
having been elated. This was a most disgraceful state of
things. Still there was hope, for Spain was feeling it to be
so disgraceful that she had sent ships to Cuba to exercise a
greater degree of vigilance upon the coast. The importa-
tions of slaves did not take place in Spanish ships only, but
in American also. We had remonstrated with the Ameri-
can Government against this prostitution of their flag, but
that remonstrance was considered by them to be an inter-
ference with their nationality. We then tried various ether
schemes, proposing last year, for instance, that an English
and an American cruiser should cruise together for the
suppression of the traffic, but that offer was declined. The
member for Galway had suggested the present as a favour-
able moment for getting the assistance of the North as
against the South, seeing that the civil war was raging. It
was quite true that when an American cruiser was com-
manded by a Southern captain no effective assistance was
given to the suppression of the slave trade, he having shut
his eyes very much to what was going on upon the coast ;
but where the American cruiser was commanded by a cap-
tain from the North, then very vigilant co• operation was
afforded. (Hear.) England had also urged upon the Portu-
guese authorities the necessity of suppressing the traffic ;
but then it should be recollected that the Portuguese pos-
sessions on the Eastern Coast of Africa were of enormous
length, and that many evils could be committe there un-
observed by mortal gaze. It was for the interest of Portu-
gal to suppress the traffic, and he believed the authorities
at Lisbon, although they might not be able effectually to
control what went on upon the coast of Africa, were wil-
ling to render every assistance. (Hear, hear.) The pro-
priety of placing a differential duty on slave-grown sugar
had been suggested to-night as a remedy, but that had
been discussed before, and it was not a measure
to which it would be desirable to resort, because if they
levied a duty on the importation of slave-grown sugar they
might be asked why they did not apply the principle of lay-
ing an impost on other articles as well as sugar. He be-
lieved that the appointment of a consul at Mozambique
would have very little influence on the suppression of the
slave trade. At the same time, he admitted that that was
a point well deserving of attention. The present Govern-
ment were most anxious to continue the noble conduct
which this country had been for years carrying out with a
view to the total suppression of the slave trade all over the
world. Cuba might now be said to be the only plague- spot
on the face of the globe. Still he did not despair of seeing
slavery abolished even there, if not speedily and entirely,
yet gradually and largely. (Hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY believed that the horrors of the middle
passage were greater now than when cruisers were not
employed upon the African coast.
The subject then dropped.
MERCHANT SHIPPING COMMITTEE,

Mr. LINDSAY called attention to the Report of the
Merchant Shipping Committee of 1859-60, and moved—
" That in the opinion of this house, it is to be regretted
that the Government has not, in the present session of Par-
liament, introduced measures to carry into effect the more
important recommendations of the Merchant Shipping Com-
mittee; that the shipping interest is one of great import-
ance, and ought to be relieved from all the peculiar burdens
and restrictions to which it is still subjected; that more
effective measures ought to be adopted by the Government
to induce foreign governments to reciprocate the immuni-
ties and privileges which this country has granted to the
vessels belonging to foreign nations entering the ports of
Great Britain and of her colonies and possessions ; that
the Executive Government should, during the recess,
call the attention of • those non-reciprocating nations
to the anomalous and very unsatisfactory state of
our maritime relations with them, and should pre..
pare hills to carry into effect, at an early period in the
ensuing session of Parliament, the recommendations of the
Merchant Shipping Committee." The hon. member ad-
vanced some reasons in support of his motion, but intimated
at the close that he had no intention c,f dividing the house
upon it.
Mr. CAVE referred to the passing of the Inland Freight
Bill, and remarked that that measure met with no opposi-
tion from his side of the house, although it was brought
forward in a very thin house, at a late hour, when the re-
porters were very much tired: That bill did not pass the
House of Lords, and he hoped the Government would bring
forward some comprehensive measure in the ensuing
session.

Mr. M. GIBSON said with regard to the lighthouse
dues, he was of opinion that the merchant shipping should
pay that charge. The surplus of those dues had gone to re-
lieve the shipping interest to the extent of some £63,000 or
£70,000 a year. Where shipowners formerly paid £lOO, they
now only paid £4O. An agitation had arisen that there
should not be compulsory pilots. Owners held that those
pilots were not in their charge, and consequently they were
not responsible for damage done when vessels were in their
charge. That was a reason why, he apprehended, that
the shipping interest would oppose any change. There
were only three countries in Europe where we had re-
ciprocity in these matters. But shipping was increasing
very rapidly. In the first six months ending the 3001 of
June, in the present year, the tonnage entered and cleared
was 6,951,723 tons. In the first six months of 1860 it was
5,628,589 tons, whilst in a corresponding period of 1859 it
was only 5,439,277, showing, during those three years, a
regular increase. In 1860, the tonnage entered and cleared
from British ports during only six months was three..
fourths of what it was during the whole of the year 1850.
So that, since the repeal of the Navigation Laws, the in-
crease had been large and progressive. (Hear, hear.) Again,
the increase in value was proportionate to that of tonnage.
During the six months ending the 30th of June, 1860, the
value of exports in British ships was £10,263,893 against
£9,226,454 for the same six months of the year 1860; so
that the repeal of the Navigation Laws had not injured the
shipping interest, as was anticipated, but, on the contrary,
had materially benefited it. He could congratulate the
house on a considerable:increase in the exports to Italy under
the new state of affairs that had been inaugurated there, in
consequence of the changes introduced by the Sardinian
government. He quoted these figures to remove any er-
roneous impressions that might have prevailed on this sub-
ject. Her Majesty's Government was extremely anxious
to remove every impediment in the Navigation Laws, and
he felt bound to state that a bill might be introduced early
next session with respect to the liability of kbipowaers and
compulsory pilotage.
Mr. CAVE—And a freightage bill?
Mr. GIBSON—That would also be included in the pro-
positions of the Board of Trade.
The subject then dropped.
THE EMPEROR OF THE FRENCH AND ITALY.
Mr. GRIFFITH called attention to the tone and tenour
of certain telegraphic despatches which had just been ad-
dressed to the Italian Government by the Emperor of the
French. He said that a few days ago at Vichy the Empe-
ror Napoleon happened to cast his eye over a Legitimist
journal, called the " Gazette de France," where, in the cor-
respondence from Naples, he read a statement to the effect
that General Pinelli had ordered three peasants to be shot
for the alleged offence of having carried provisions to
the brigands. Without further inquiry, the Emperor sent I
the following despatch to General Fleury, who was then in
the north of Italy :
vo
stieonils
" I have written to Rome to make remonstrances. The
accounts which arrive are of a nature to alienate from the
Italiananarc areall honest hearts. Not only misery and
ereue at their height, but the most unworthy culpa-
bilities ar
oyder of the day. A General, whose name I
h
having forbidden that the peasants should
carryavef porrog
w.. th them in going to their work in the
fields, has caused those to be shot upon whom a morsel of
bread has been foun.
thing like that." The Bourbons have never done any-
That despatch was shown to Baron Ricasoli on the evening
of the 22d, but on the morning of the same
L'ltatie had given the following account ofday
the the journal
matter
" The Gazette of France, in its correspondence :
Naples of the 9th of July, announces that General Pinelli
had caused three peasants to be shot who were suspectlnede of
having conveyed provisions to the brigands. We are able
to contradict absolutely this story on every point. Ni hat
may have afforded a pretence for it are the dispositions
made by General Pinelli to forbid the bakers in localities
exposed to the attacks of the brigands, from making a larger
quantity of bread than is required by the population of the
place, and from selling it to persons outside; which is a
measure of simple prudence, to prevent the maintenance
and extension of brigandage. We therefore totally deny
the fact related by the Gazette de France, and assert its.
statements to be falsehoods, and totally undeserving of
credit."
In order, he supposed, to make the despatch more insulting
to the Italian Government. it was not sent in cipher, but in
the ordinary langnge of the country, and its contents were
known by every clerk between Vichy and Turin. If bri-
gandage existed in the South of Italy nobody was more re-
sponsible for it than the very man who now affected a vir-
tuous indignation and presumed to insult the Italian Go-
vernment on account of an erroneous statement in a
Legitimist newspaper. He believed that this proceeding on
the part of the Emperor of the French would have a very
different effect from that which it was intended to have on
1 the Italian Minister. Baron Ricasoli was distinguished for

firmness of mind and nobility of character. Not a single
inch of Italian territory would ever be yielded by him, and
his answer to the gratuitous rebuke from the Emperor of
the French would be such as to vindicate the independence
of Italy. (Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. HENNESSY,
The house went into Committee of Supply, when the dis-
cussion was resumed on the vote for building iron ships.

should find ourselves behind in the race. (Hear, hear.)
It was the duty of the house under such circumstances not
to look with too jealous an eye upon what the Government
might do. The Government must do the best they could.
No man could tell whether plating in this or that way would
eventually turn out most successful. He rather believed
that until we went to war, which he most sincerely prayed
we might not df, we should not really find out whether big
ships or little ships were best. If the Government did their
best, the country—at all events he could answer for himself,
would not find fault wit h them if experience should prove they
had been mistaken. The country, in any case, would have
to pay the piper, that could not be helped. The hon. mem-
ber (Mr. Lindsay) had taken a very curious course. (Hear,
hear.) He said that ho did not believe anything that any-
body else said in comparison with the information he had
received, yet he said that if the statements of the Govern-
ment were to be believed the £2,500,000 was a mere fleabite,
and that the house ought to vote £5,000,000. He thought
when the Government stated that they had the information
which they said they now possessed—and the noble lord the
First Minister had used a strong expression, for he said
he knew it—it was no matter if a hundred other per-
sons went to look about, opening their eyes, or shutting
their eyes, and perhaps having no eyes to see at all—
(laughter)—for the latter proceeding ought not to weigh for
one moment with the country against the positive declara-
lion of the Prime Minister. (Hear.) He therefore, should
certainly support the present vote. (Hear, hear.)
Lord C. PAGET considered the observations of the right
hon. gentleman to be so completely to the purpose as to
render unnecessary any further statement in favour of the
present vote. He was sure the country would agree in what
had fallen from the right hon. gentleman—(hear)—and,
therefore, on that point he should not say another word.
"With respect to the hon. member for Sunderland, he re-
gretted that a gentleman of his knowledge and experience
in shipping and love of country (for he had stated that very
day that he was willing to vote any sum that might be ne-
cessary to put the navy on a proper footing), should have
expressed himself as he had done in the face of being told
officially. as he had been over and over again, of the in-
crease of foreign navies in regard to iron-cased ships. Every
word which his noble friend at the head of the Government
had stated he could affirm to be fact—(hear)—and he could
also inform the house that the increase in other navies was
going on in a ratio corresponding with that of France.
(Hear, hear.) Austria was building two iron-cased ships;
the King of Italy was building two, and had two others
ordered to be constructed; and Spain was building two.
Here were not less than eight iron• cased ships over and
above what were possessed by France, and he believed
that Prussia, and, in fact, every continental nation were
moving in the same direction. The right hon. member for
Carlisle had that afternoon asked whether this additional
sum was to be the ultimate cost of these ships, or whether
this expenditure was to go on over and above the ordinary
estimates of the year. It was impossible to.state anything
with certainty for the future, but he was quite sure that
the Duke of Somerset was anxious, inasmuch as there was
to be this great expenditure in building iron•-cased ships by
contract, that there should be certain corresponding reduc-
tions made in the dockyard expenditure. (Hear, hear.)
He trusted that, if matters remained peaceable, and no un-
foreseen and unfortunate event occurred, in future years
there would be a still further decrease of expenditure in the
dockyards. This year the Government decreased this ex-
penditure by something like £300,000. The hon. member
for Finsbury seemed to think that because the Government
were going to build these very large ships of iron, therefore
the Admiralty had changed their mind, and had given up
the building of wooden ships. It would be very improper
that such an idea should go forth. There was no intention
whatever on the part of the Admiralty to give up wholly
the building of wooden ships. (Hear, hear.) When these
great sized ships were conceived he believed that wood had
not strength for the purpose ; but for corvettes, gunboats,
and the usual fleet, which must be maintained for the pro-
tection of British commerce all over the world, as yet iron
vessels had been found no substitute whatever. (Hear,
hear.) Therefore he trusted that it would not be supposed,
because it was necessary to construct at once a certain num-
ber of very large iron-cased ships, that in future there
would be no further building or repairing of wooden ships
in the dockyards. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant
member for Harwich seemed to think that the Warrior no
sooner than completed was to be battered to pieces. (A
laugh.) That was not the intention of the Admiralty.
What they were preparing to do was to carry on expe-
riments against a target precisely similar to the side of
the Warrior, and that target was now being constructed,
and would no doubt be the object of very interest-
ing experiments. He trusted his hon. friend would not per-
severe in his opposition to the vote, for in so doing he would
be acting against the wishes of the country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI-1f I were to judge from the speech of
the Foreign Secretary the other night, and from the address
of the noble lord this evening, I should suppose that the
good understanding between England and France is in
great peril. (Hear, hear.) That is not my opinion. Not-
withstanding the rumours which are in circulation, I be-
lieve that that good understanding wilt be maintained, and
I am still of opinion, which I have always expressed in this
house, that on that good understanding the happiness
of the world and the cause of progress and civilisation
mainly depend. (Hear, hear.) Then, how is it that ques
tions of this irritating nature are mixed up with points of

business details, such as those which ought to occupy the
attention of the committee of supply this evening ? There
is no doubt that a great change has taken place in ship-
building. There is no doubt that no country is so much
interested in the best construction of vessels, and of vessels
of war especially, as our own country. But it does not fol-
low because we feel it our duty to reconstruct the navy of
England upon the accepted principles of science which now
are acknowledged, that we should be supposed to be taking
a course adverse to the interest of any other country, and
especially of that country which is so near to us, with which
our interests are so various and numerous, and with which,
whatever may be the oceasonal misunderstandings, the
general tendency of our policy, no doubt, for the last half-
century, has been in the direction of increased amity and
increased good understanding. (Hear, hear.) Is there
any cause for this ? Is it France that objects to the recon •
struction of the English navy, or to the building of English
iron-cased ships? No one for a moment ever hinted that there
was any protest from the other side of the Channel against
our course of proceeding in this respect, and I have yet to
learn that we have felt it our duty to protest against the
course which France is taking. No one contests that France
has a right to establish a navy—and a navy of great power,
—for such a proceeding is justified by her geographical posi-
tion, her possessions, and the general course of her conduct
in various parts of Europe ; but then it is said by some hon.
gentlemen that there is no termination of this competition
between England and France as to the respective conditions
of their navies. I admit that if every time we build new
ships of war France proceeds to build an increased number,
and if every moment we hear that France is laying downnew
keels, we are to enter upon an indefinite competition with
France, such a state of proceeding would be most hostile, and
perhaps fatal to the interests and fortunes of both countries.
(Hear, hear.) But what is the use of government or diplo-
macy, or of cordial understandings, if such a state of things
can exist ? (Hear.) I speak with great deference, of course,
to the Government, and with the reserve befitting one in
my inferior position as compared with the Ministers on this
subject; but I certainly was always under the impression
—at least as long as I had any intimate acquaintance with
public affairs—that there was on the part of the French
Government, certainly for many years past, a perfect will-
ingness to come to an understanding with the Govern-
ment of this country as to the relative proportion of the
naval power of both countries, and with a clear acknow-
ledgment on the part of France, candidly expressed and
voluntarily offered, that there should be a superiority—l
will not say a supremacy, but a great superiority—on the
side of England, in natural consideration of the undoubted
superiority in military power possessed by France. (Hear.)
I am under that impression. I cannot doubt that these
is to be found on the part of the Governor ant of France
a readiness to come to an understanding as to the definite
proportion which should exist between the naval power of
the two countries, and if that be so, then I would submit
that there ought to be no danger of that unlimited and
ruinous competition to which reference has so often
been made, and that we ought to see before us
the point at which this vast expenditure would
be likely to cease. If this be a just view then I say it
ought to be in the power of the Minister to tell us that,
while under existing circumstances it is deemed to be
the duty of the Government both of England and France to
reconstruct their naval forces, they do this, not because they
have entered into reckless rivalry, but because they have
arrived at the grave and politic conclusion that that re-con-
struction is to be effected with the understanding on the
part of France that the naval superiority of England shall
not be a subject of jealousy to her, but that she is prepared
willingly to accept that superiority as the natural and in-
evitable result of the circumstances of the British empire—
(hear)—France at the same time expecting from us that we
shall exhibit no unjust or unnatural jealousy of her equally
necessary military power, (Hear, hear.) If the noble lord
at the head of the Government would only come forward
and tell us this, with all the authority which waits upon
the expression of opinion of a statement of a Minister
and especially of a Minister so highly experienced and in-
tellectual as himself, a better understanding on this subject
would, I =not help thinking, prevail. There would not
then be upon the part of France the hostile and irritable
feeling of which we have heard so much, nor uron the part
of England that undignified panic—(hear)—and that readi-
ness or reckless expenditure, which I for one entirely de-
precate. (Cheers.) Am I tight or wrong in maintaining
the expediency of that course ? The noble lord can tell me
that I am labouring under a delusion if such be the case,
and that it is a mistake to suppose there exists between
the statesmen of the two countries that generous and wise
and politic understanding as to the relative proportion of
the naval force of each to which I have adverted. If he
makes such a statement then I may be induced to believe
that the wildest suggestions which I have heard in this
house upon this subject may have some authority. But if
the noble lord can assure us—and I am unable to bring my-
self to doubt that he can—that the understanding of which
I speak exists, and that France—while establishing—as she
is in my opinion perfectly justified in doing—a navy equal
to the exigencies of her position and all claims on her power
and patronage that may arise, is willing at the same time to

acknowledge that she views with no jealousy on our part
the reconstruction of our naval power in conformity with
recent scientific changes and discoveries, on a scale greatly
superior to that which she has fixed upon as the term of her
exertions—if, I repeat, the noble lord can give us that assur-
ance it will, I have no doubt, have the effect of putting an
end to the vexatious controversies in which we have been
in the habit of indulging of late, and throw light on the
subject. If, however, the noble lord can do this I can
hardly think he is justified in rising as he does on every
occasion when discussions of this kind take place, and seek-
ing to impress on the public mind that it is in consequence
of unexpected and almost unnatural efforts on the part of
France that he feels obliged to call upon the country to make
exertions by which those efforts might be overpowered. For
my own part, I consider that both nations need not stand
with respect to this question in a hostile, invidious, or com-
peting position. They are both great Powers with vast de
mends on their maritime influence, and which are placed
in consequence of the revolution which has of late years
occurred in naval affairs in a situation in which both are
called upon to make great efforts to establish an adequate
naval force. Instead, therefore, of looking upon one another
under those circumstances in a criticising and hostile spirit,
the leading statesmen, at all events, of each ought to use
every effort in their power to enlighten the public mind,
and to point out that the exertions which are being made
to create those naval armaments are the inevitable result of
that march of science which neither men nor nations can
resist—(hear)—that both countries, so far as can be judged,
are justified in the adoption of the course which they are
pursuing, and that nothing has hitherto occurred in refe-
rence to this question which England on the one side, or
France on the other, can fairly impugn. But, that being
the case, theinterference of statesmen may bring about this
result, that there shall be on neither side excess or extra-
vagance of action—that there shall be no unnecessary or
wasteful expenditure, and that instead of the people in both
countries being oppressed, owing to rival exertions, care
should be taken that, as I said before, a mutual understand-
ing should exist that the naval power of each should, be
fixed at the relative proportion which the interests of each
demand. (Hear, hear.) If these grounds were placed by the
noble lord fairly before the house, and if he called upon us
to make exertions in the direction in which he now invites
us, with the assurance that neither England nor France
was entering on any insane race in the construction of its
naval force, but that both were simply aiming at the attain-
ment of a result which, when reached, would not have the
effect of endangering, but rather of consolidating the peace
of Europe, then,there would, in my opinion, be an end of
those panics which we have witnessed and of those hostile
sentiments which we hear so frequently expressed,
(Cheers.)
Mr. WHITE heard with pleasure the sentiments which
the right hon. gentleman had so admirably expressed,
differing, as they did, materially from those which appeared
to find favour on the Opposition benches in the earlier pat t
of the session. It was evident the right hon. gentleman
looked upon the responsibilities of office as not very remote
—(a laugh)—and that he now deemed it the more states-
manlike course to adopt to come round to views which it
was some time ago the fashion to regard with abhorrence
when uttered by members who sat below the gangway on
the Ministerial side, while every expression of hostility to
France was greeted by the followers of the right hon. gen-
t leman with cheers. But passing from the speech of the right
hon. gentleman, he had to complain that categorical answers
had not been returned by the noble lord the Secretary to the
Admiralty to the questions which had been put to him by
the hon. member for Sunderland. He should, however,
again put those questions to the noble lord, and if he de-
clined to reply to them, it only remained for him, in con-
junction with his hon. friend, to take the sense of the
house on the subject. If the required information were not
furnished, the prob ibility was he would find on taking up
the Moniteur in a few days a flat contradiction given in its
pages to the statement of the noble lord at the head of the
Government, and he wished therefore to have some more
&tailed knowledge with respect to how mattersreally stood.
The questions he had to ask the Secretary for the Admi-
ralty were—what were the names of the six iron vessels
now afloat to which allusion bad been made ? Where were
the ten new vessels being built or laid down, and the eleven
floating iron-cased vesst is to be found ?

Sir F. SMITH said these were points of detail which
should be left to the Government. The noble viscount at
the head of the Government had assured the Committee
that such force was in course of cor struction in the French
ports, and upon a former occasion the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty gave the names of the vessels and the places wh,re
they were to be found. Ho hoped the Government would
proceed with all possible speed in getting up the strength
of our navy.

paid.

Lord C. PAGET—I rise to give the information which
has been asked for by the hon. member for Sunderland with
respect to the French iron-plated ships. The Magenta and
the Solferino are two-deckers. The Magenta is launched,
and the Solferino is either launched or will soon be so. The
Gloire is afloat, the Normandie is afloat, the Couronne is
afloat, the Invincible is afloat, the Saigon is afloat, the Pa-
lestro is afloat, the Tonnante is afloat, and the Devastation
is afloat. Here we have ten vessels, two of them line-of-
battle ships, four of them with 36 or 40 guns each, and four
belonging to that formidable class which the French call
floating batteries. We have then the Provence, the Savoie,
the Revanche, the Magnanime, the Gauloise, the Valeu-
reuse, the Heroine, the Surveillanie, the Flandre, and the
Guienne. These vessels—improved Gloires—were com-
menced in the early part of this year, and are all in course
of construction. We have besides the Congreve, the Fou-
droyante, the Paixhans, and the Peiho—all floating bat-
teries. There are two other vessels, the names of which 1
do not know, and as to which I have not such correct infor•
mation, but I believe they are being built as floating bat-
teries. The Magenta is at Brest, the Solferino is at
L' Orient, the Gloire is at Toulon, the Normandie is at Cher-
bourg, the Couronne is at L'Orient, the Invincible is at
Toulon, the Provence is at Toulon, the Savoie is at Toulon,
the Revanche is at Toulon, the Magnanime is at Brest, the
Gauloise is at Brest, the Valeureuse is at Brest, the Heroine
is at L'Orient, the Surveillante is at L'Orient, the Flandre
is at Cherbourg, and the Guienne is at Rochefort. Alto-
gether, the French have 16 large iron-plated vessels and 11
floating batteries, either afloat or in course of construction.
Is any further information wanted ? (A laugb,)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I stated this morning that I en-
tirely approve the course which the Government have taken
in proposing this estimate, and I should not have troubled
the committee again had it not been for an error into which
the hon. and gallant member for Harwich has fallen with
respect to the cost of these iron-cased ships. The hon. and
gallant member stated that we might take these ships as
costing half a million each. •
Capt. JERVIS—With their armaments.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Even with their armaments the
estimate of the hon. and gallant member is exaggerated.
The most expensive of these ships is the Warrior, and yet
I think I am right when I state that the whole cost of the
Warrior, excluding the armament, will not be much, if at
all, more thau £30'),000. The sum is enormous, no doubt,
but still, as the expense is so large, it is desirable that it
should not be overrated. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant
member will recollect that of the 18 ships which are pro-
mised-12 in progress and 6 proposed to-day-9 are to be of
the Warrior class, and the remaining 9 will consist of the 4
which the AdMiralty are now building of considerably
smaller dimensions, and of the 5 small wooden ships which
were promised some time ago. It will be seen, therefore,
that of the whole 13 ships one half will cost only three
fifths of the sum which the hon. and gallant member has
estimated, and the other half will cost very much less.
(Hear.) And now I must say that I have heard the hon.
meml er for Sunderland to might with great regret. This
morning the hon. member told us that whatever number
of ships the French may have we ought to have more.
(Hear.) I was sorry to hear him this evening, I will not say
retracting that expression, but declaring that if he stood
alone he would vote against the proposal of the Govern-
ment. On what ground? Because he did not believe
their statements. After what the hon. member has now
heard I think he must abandon everything like disbelief,
which, indeed, he had no right to entertain before. The
statements which he refused to credit rested upon un-
impeachable authority ; the evidence was conclusive, and
the hon. member might as well have said that he did not
believe this was the House of Commons. (A laugh.) I
agree with my right hon. friend the member for Bucks that
the question before us is not one of a foolish rivalry be-
tween England and France. The right of France to have
a large navy has never been disputed ; but, on the
other hand, we must take care to maintain the same right
for England. (Hear, hear.) We have the largest colonial
empire and the most extended commerce in the world, and
it is our first duty to provide ourselves with an adequate
naval force. I thoroughly approve the proposal of the Go-
vernment, in which I see nothing hostile to France, and I
hope it will meet with the approbation of the committee.

Lord H. VANE had no doubt his hon. friend the member
for Sunderland, after hearing the statement of the noble
lord the Secretary for the Admiralty, would at once accede
to the propriety of this vote. He did not believe there was
any panic in this country, but he was quite convinced the
temper of the people would not tolerate that we should be
left behind any other country in our naval armament. This
proposal of the Government, which had been somewhat
tardy, would be found in unison with the public sentiment.
(Hear.) It was absolutely called for, and he was not with-
out a hope that the strength of our naval armament would
enable us to make reductions in other departments.
Mr. LINDSAY must say, after the explicit statement of
the noble lord as to the number of iron ships afloat and in
course of construction in France, that he had been misled by
'o u
tl do
thatp s s
the private information he liad received from a high autho..
rity in Paris; and under these circumstances he should feel
that he was taking on himself a very serious responsibility
ea itlN
if he divided against this vote. He hop
unanimously. But it behoved us well and seriously to con-
sider wuat had fallen from the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire. He had listened
speech with very great delight. He could ntinl
what the right hon. gentleman had stated. i. y confirm
France would not be the last to move in the • He believed
had been indicated, and if some arrangements direction which
come to it would not be the fault of were not
France, but our own.
The vote was agreed to amid load
The next vote was one for cheers.
£_06,229,
army expenditure. to defray excess of
On the resolution being put, a personal explanation was

made by General PEEL to Mr. Baring in reference to
some statistics connected with military administration,
which had been used on a previous evening, when discus-
sing the estimates of the Indian army.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved that the vote be reduced
to £lBO,OOO. He said that money was being continually
applied for in the shapo of army grants, which was as con-
tinually applied to other purposes, so that Parliament was
really losing control of the public expenditure. In the
latter part of the financial year 1859-60 there were 9,559
men on the army rolls which the house had never voted
for at all, whilst in the last month of the same year there
were 11,000 men more than the number voted for. lie
thought it a very serious matter to be keeping a largo
standing army without the sanction of the house. The at-
tempt to do so by those supplementary votes should be re-
sisted. The hon. baronet then read a number of items in
connection With the vote, and selected two for especial con-
demnation. He asked the meaning of £14,214 for the sur-
vey of London. What had that to do with the army ?
(hear)—the survey of London by the late B ,ard of Ord-
nance and the Commissioners of Sewers. (Laughter.)
Another was a sum for the survey of towns. They had just
voted £250,000 for building iron ships, but how did they
know that the money would be really applied to that pur-
pose alone He hoped the Government would be able to
give a satisfactory explanation on the point.
Mr. BARING, in defending the vote, went over the
various amounts, and said with respect to the surveys, they
were performed by the men in the Ordnance department,
which he apprehended was a portion of the army.
_ _ _

General PEEL wished to know out of what funds the
excess of £973,000 on account of the army votes had been

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained of the appropria-
tion of funds voted for one purpose to another of a totally
different nature,

Mr. F. PEEL explained the circumstances under which
the debt due by the Commissioners of Sewers to the Board,
of Ordnance was settled by compromise with the Metropo-
litan Board of Works.
Some discussion ensued to the form in which the Trea-
sury exercised its supervision over the expenditure of the
public money.

Col. DICKSON complained of the enormous expenditure•
of nearly £17,000,000 upon the army estimates of the pre-
sent year.

Sir W. VERNER complained of the influence Exercised
on the religious teaching of the army by the monks and
friars and Catholic priests.
After a few words from Colonel DUN NE,
The committee divided, when there al peared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority..
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of £637,000 for the disembodied militia,

Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the amount on the ground
that it was perfectly astounding. He thought the Militia
inferior to the Volunteers.

Lord BURLEIGH denied that the Militia had been ex-
celled by the Volunteers.

Colonel D UNNE suggested the propriety of appointing
an additional instructor to each corps of Militia.
After some discussion on the position of Militia surgeons
and other officers, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was a sum of £3o,ooo—supplemental esti-
mate—for the Volunteers, which was also agreed to.
The house then resumed.
EAST INDIAN LOAN.
The report was brought up and agreed to.
SUPPLY.

The report of the committee of supply was brought up
and agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS.

Upon the motion for going into committee of ways and
means,

Sir H. IVILLOUGHBY suggested that the Appropria-
tion Bill should be printed, in order that it might be placed
in the hands of members.

The house then went into committee of ways and means,
and certain resolutions were agreed to.

SIR ROBERT PEEL.

Mr. WHITE asked Lord Palmerston if it was true that
he had appointed Sir R. Peel Secretary for Ireland, and
whether that gentleman was still a member of the Carlton
Club ?

Lord PALMERSTON said Sir R. Peel had accepted the
office of Secretary for Ireland. With regard to the Carlton
Club he was not in the secrets of that body, and therefore
could give no information as to whether the hon. baronet
was a member of that body or not.
WINDSOR SUSPENDED CANONRIES BILL.

The remaining amendments to this bill were considered,
and the third reading fixed for this day.
The Lace Factories, Inland Revenue, and Public Works
(Ireland) Bills were severally read a third time.
The Pensions, British Forces (India) Bill passed through
committee.
COURTS OF JUSTICE BUILDING BILL.
On the motion of Mr. COWPER, the order for the com-
mittee on this bill was discharged.

The East India Loan Bill was brought in and read a first
time.

The remaining orders were disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at a quarter-past 2 o'clock.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

WAKEFIELD-JuLy 26.

We have had some heavy rain during the week, and
again ;his morning; this circumstance has, however, but
little effect on the wheat trade here to-day, beyond causing
holders to be very firm. Fine fresh se mples meta fair sale
at last week's rates, but other sorts still neglected. Barley
nominal. Beans, oats, and shelling dull at late rates.