The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-30 00:00:00

A!Y EVENING, MAY 30, 1857

of need for the def,,nce of their own property. AU that
was requisite in such cases was praper defences and
sufficient- nurn!,er of piec...es of ordnance.

Sir J. TRELAWN Y was afraid that the vote, if
agreed to, woul,l lead to consi&rable additional expendi_
tore. In toad of 300,0001., the amount woi:ld probe!) y
exceed 1,000,0001.
Mr. AYR TON thought the Government ong.ht to
mention the harbours on which the sum of 13,500/. was
to be expended. It certainly mint be intended for only
two or three harbours, and he thought it not at all de-
sirable to commit the houseto an expenditure oi 300 0001,
Lord PALMERSTON was not in a position to state
the particular towns on which the money was to be ex-
pended. If the proposal was to begin fortifications ob
which 300.0001. must be expended it might be argued
that it would he necessary to complete them or all the
money would be thrown away. Bat the intention was
to fortify a number of paces, each of which would c.:st
only a small sum. It did not follow that it would be
necessary to proceed with all the fortifica,ionk; contem-
plated. He might state that Liverpool, Hull, and Sun-
derland were three of the places from which applications
had been received.

General WILLIAMS supported the vote, and was of
opinion that the contemplated works could not be com-
menced at too ear:y a period. To show the importance
of fortifying our seaports he might state that during the
French war the ports of France were so wtl.l fortified
tbat Nelson could not put a stop to the French coa-ting
trade.

After some further discussion, in which Sir Ver-
ney, Mr. Rich, and Sir C. Napier took part, the vote
was agreed to.

On-the motion of Mr. WILLIAMS, the chairman
then reported progress, and the house re,umed.

MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND).
On the order of the day for going into committee on
this bill,

Lord J. MANNERS objected to going on at that hour
with the bill. Certain returns with respect to the pro-
perty of the ecclesiastical commission affecting the v4-ry
basis of the bill had been moved for, and he submitted,
therefore, that the measure ought not at present to be
proceeded with.

Sir G. GREY denied that the returns which the noble
lord referred to had any direct bearing on the bill.
Mr. HORSNIAN explained that the income of the
present year was 143,0001 , and that of the last year
was 93,0001. The balance, after payment of ministers'
money, would amount to ab.,ut 2,0001. Ha thought
that these facts would afford all necessary information?,
to the house.

Mr. HAMILTON said that this bill was giving to the
owners and inhabitants of certain towns i❑ lrtland an
advantage to which they had no right. Sill, after the
division of the other night, he felt that the house had
decided on abolishing that payment ; but with respect
to the fund out of which that payment was to be made
good no decision had been arrived at. It was therefore
necessary that the returns to which his noble friend had
referred should be before the house before any further
steps were taken,

Mr. BUTT felt convinced that this bill did not affect
the security of church property in Ireland. He looked
upon ministers' money as a mere tax, and nothing more.
He believed that the proteAants in Ireland were desirous
to have the tax abolished. (Hear.) Not one petition bad
been presented by the protestants of that country in
favour of the tax.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY objected to this measure as
it was pressed on by reason of certain corporations in
Ireland setting themselves above the law.
Sir A. ELroN objected to the measure, because he
thought one great measure ought to be introduced for
dealing with all the religious questions in Ireland. lie
objected to non-members getting up first upon one side,
and then upon the other, and attacking the creeds and
advantages enjoyed by those opposed to them.
The house went into, aad the bid passed through,
committee.

SAVINGS" BANKS -BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER with
drew this bill, in order to reintroduce it with certain
amendments.
Leave was then given to bring in another bill.
CINQUE PORTS ACE AMENDMENT.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES ACT AMENDMENT

BILL.
Mr. LOWE (in corainittee) asked f.r leave to bring in
a bill to amend certain technical difficulties which had
arisen in the construction of the act of last year.
Agreed to.

MR. BERTOLACCI.
Mr. CONINGEIAM moved that the petition of Mr.
Francis Robert Bartolacci, auditor of the Duchy of Lau-
caster, praying the house to appoint a select committee,
to inquire into the statements set forth in hi, petition—
[presented May 19], be printed with the votes. The hon.
member read a long extract from a speech of Mr.
Strutt's, explaining the circumstances under which Mr.
Bertolacci received his appointment. He intended to
ask for a select committee on the suhject, and his object
in moving that the petition be printed was to put the
house in possession of the main outlines of the case.
Mr Bertolacci was dismissed from his office for doing
his duty too faithfully to the crown and to the country.
Mr. WISE, on the part of the select committee on
pnblic petitions, stated that they did not think it ad-
visable to print the petition, because it contained sixty
folio pages, and would cost 251. to print, besides that it
charged some noblemen and gentlemen with serious
offences which they would have ne opportunity of an-
swering in that house ; and therefore, according to the
rules laid down for their guidance, they could not
print it.

_
Mr. BAINES knew nothing personally of the trans-
actions referred to, but be admitted the charges contained
in the petition ought to be investigated. Hu was autho-
rised by the two noblemen who had preceded him in his
office to say that they were most anxious to meet these
charges, and only wished to have the inquiry as prompt
and complete as possible.
Mr. FORSTER suggested that the petition, instead
of being printed, should be referred to a select commit.
tee. (No, no.)
Sir. G. GREY said that any hon. member who pre-
sented such a petition ought to have at once taken some
steps to act on it; and the hon, member for Dover ought,
instead of his present motion, to have asked at once for
a committee. He would suggest it be referred to a select
committee of five members. If this motion was with-
drawn the Government would give their support to the
appointment ,if a committee.
Mr. CONINGHAM, on that understanding, would
withdraw his motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
HOP DUTIES.
_

On the motion of Mr. DODSON, the following were
nominated the select committee on these duties :—Mr.
Dodson, Viscount Pevensey, Mr, W. Martin, Mr. B.
Hope, Sir E. Dering, Mr. Bass, Mr, Hanbury, Sir John
Shelley, Mr. J. Locke, the Chancellorof the Exchequer,
Mr. Brand, Mr. Beach, Mr. Bail, Mr. Blakeruore, and
Mr. Knight.
TURNPIKE TOLLS (IRELAND).
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD obtained leave to bring in
a bill to discontinue the taking of toll on the turnpike
roads now existing i❑ Ireland, and to provide for the
maintenance of such roads as public roads, and for the
discharge of the debts due thereon, and for othtr pur-
poses relating thereto.

PROTECTION OF YOUNG FEMALES EXTEN-
tsION.
Lord R. GROSVENOR. obtained leave to bring in a
bill to extend the law for the protection of young fe-
males between the ages of 12 and 14, and of young fe-
males of unsound mind.
ECCLESIASTICAL REVENUES (IRELAND )
Mr. J. GREENE moved for returns of the revenues
derived from lands by the archbishops and bishops of
Ireland, distinguishing the amounts received &cm rents
and amount received from fines, and the gross and net
amounts ; the number of acres of land from which the
rents and fines are derived ; the average value per acre
of those lands, and total value ; of the revenues derived
from the lands of the church in the hands of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, distinguishing rents anti fines,
and statin4 to what extent perpetuities have been
granted under the Act 3 and 4 `VW. IV. ; of the num-
ber of acres of ecclesiastical lands in the hands et the
commissioner ; of what leases have been lead° in per-
petuity by archbishops and bishops under the Act 3
and 4 tYil. IV. c. 37 ; of thenumber of acres of church
lands in Ireland, whether held by the archbishops and
bishops, or by the ecclesiastical commissioners ; of the
rents and fines of all such lands, and of the total value ;
of the total ecclesiastical tithes of Ireland as now pay-
able under the last Commutation Act ; of the total Jay
tithes of Ireland ; and of the value of church leases for
21 years, as ascertained from sales in the Court of Chan-
cery and Incumbered Estates Courts, in years' Purchase.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD feared it would be almost
impossible to give the information required, and there-
fore requested the hon. member to postpone his motion
till Thursday nest, to give him an opportunity of com-
municating with the authorities in Ireland ou thesubject.
Mr. GREENE said that his request for a similar re-
turn had been assented to in 1856, and he should there-
fore press his motion.
The motion was negatived without a division.
SAVINGS BANK (No. 2) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought
up this bill, which was read a first time.