The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAHL IA ME NT

HOUSE OF LORDS-YESTERDAY.

The LORD C JANOBLLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

THE BANKRUPTCY BILL.

The Earl of ABERDEEN presented a petition in favour
of the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Bill.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Bristol and South Wales Union Railway and the
Dublin (City) Steam Packet Company bills were read Et
third time and passed.
ITALY AND THE POPE.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—My lords, I rise, in
pursuance of the notice I have given, to inquire whether the
Government are engaged in any correspondence with the
object of reconciling the spiritual independence of the See
of Rome with the exercise of temporal sovereignty within
the Roman territory by the King of Italy ; and, nay lords,
I trust that your lordships will, with your usual indulgence,
permit me to offer some observations on the subject to which
my notice refers. My lords, I will not occupy your time
by any retrospect. I shall not censure the Governments
that have been swept away, nor praise that which has suc-
ceeded them. I shall not triumph over Sovereigns who
have been exiled—as much, at least, for the errors of their
predecessors as for their own. I accept the situation of
things as I find them. I look to the present and the future,
and not to the past. Her Majesty has been advised to ac-
knowledge Victor Emmanuel as King of Italy, and I do not
think there has been one audible whisper of disapproval of
the course which her Majesty has been advised to take.
All we have to do now is to consider in what manner the
work already commenced can best be completed, and hOw
the new Power which has been introduced into Europe can
best be applied to the general benefit. I know not with
what mind your lordships haye contemplated this great
and sudden revolution in Italy—a revolution which has in
two years united the people of Italy under one sceptre, and
placed among the great States of Europe a perfectly new
Power, not formed on the destruction of any Power that
had been for centuries of the smallest use to Europe or to
civilisation, but formed out of the ruins of States which
have existed for no apparent good purpose, equal already in
population to Prussia and greatly superior to her in position
and in the great natural'wealth of the country. I Must
confess that when 1 see, in the events, which hnvv 1.4 this
great revolution, how two great Emperors at the head of
vast armies were completely baffled in their designs—how,
when they reserved the rights of Princes whom they in-
tended and desired to replace, the population of the terri-
tory belonging to those Princes rose for the purpose of vin-
dicating the rights reserved to them by Nature and 'lacing
on the throne the Sovereign they esteemed,—whea T see a
man, 'with no advantage but his sword and that which he
derived from his own character and an extraordinary power
of leading men to victory, landing with 1,000 men on the
extreme coast of Sicily and marching from victory to victory,
any one of which would have made the reputation of an
ordinary General, till he was at last carried almost alone on
the shoulders of the people of Naples into the liin 's
palace while the city of Naples was still occupied by the
Royal troops,—when I see, further, the short-comings, the
mistakes, and the errors of that man, so full of natural
greatness, nobility, and generosity ; when I see the inva.
sion of Umbria and the Marches, the sieges of Gaeta and
Messina, and the completion of the Italian kingdom ; when
I ee elements so discordant and things so contradictory all
brought to bear on the accomplishment of one great pur-
pose, I cannot attribute the result to mere chance, or to the
ordinary operations of the work of man. (Hear.) I see it in
the hand of Providence, and I accept it. (Hear.) hut,
great as is this State, extending from the Alps to Cape Pas-
sera, combining every advantage of soil, climate, and posi-
tion, it is still wanting a capital, and without that capital the
keystone is still wanting in the arch. (Hear.) I agree with
the members of the New Italian Parliament in desiring that
Rome should be the capital of the State. There is no other
city in Italy worthy of that honour and which would effect
the objects to be derived from its occupation as a capital.
Rome is as necessary to Italy as London is to England and
Paris to France. Neither Florence nor any other city can
ever possess that prestige or that power over the minds of
men which for 2,000 years Rome has possessed as the
theatre of the most illustrious deeds. (Hear, hear.) In
any other city Parliament sittirg would be considered
by other parts of Italy as almost a foreign Parliament
and not identified with the interests of the nation. The
jealousies of other cities which have been the resi-
dence of Sovereigns would naturally be reused, and
no confidence would be placed in the Government ;
but once in Rome those jealousies would be extinguished.
One general feeling would then unite the whole people of
Italy, and they would indeed become a nation. In the
midst of this great country there is one small territory now
occupied by the troops of France. It is so small that I be-
lieve the whole of it may be seenfrom the top of St. Peter's ;
and yet the want of that territory prevents the completion
of the great work which when completed will so greatly
tend to consolidate the peace of Europe. (Hear, hear.)
That great city is occupied by the French. If I desired
permanently to deprive France of the use of an army of
20,000 men, if I desired to make heribecome from day to day
more and more an object of hatred to the Italian people,
now so much disposed to view the French with gratitude;
if I desired to perpetuate the hostility of the French clergy tp
the French Government, I could not desire anything better
than that the French troops should remain at Rome. (Hear.)
But I think the greatest object which it is possible at this
moment to entertain is the' object of consolidating the,
strength of the new Kingdom of Italy. The French
went to Rome for the purpose of giving the hand to the
Pope and obstructing the progress of democracy. They
remain there—not intentionally, but practically—with the '
effect of giving the hand to democracyand of degrading the
Pope. (Hear, hear.) I say with the effect of giving the
hand to democracy, because till Italy is settled and consoli-
dated under a Constitutional Government democracy will
always be at work, and always with more 'advantage and
with greater means for establishing itself than a Constitu-
tional Government, even though desired by the people.
That is altogether a false position. There is no man who has
shown he can understand the inconvenience of a false posi-
tion better than the Emperor of the French, and whenever
he has diagovered that he was in a false poaition he has gene-
rally hitherto extricated himself from it with the greatest
dexterity. In this false position he has too long.remained.
His policy now is that of a half-measure, and no half- ,
measure ever succeeds. It is utterly inconsistent with the
character ofa great and powerful State like France to enter-
tain half-measures. It is suited only to small and timid
States. There is but one nation in the world which from
the first period of its existence avoided halfsmeaiures—
and that was the Roman republic ; and in consequence of
avoiding half-measures it conquered the world. France
might, in the first instance, have declared that the whole of
the Roman States should be preserved under the dominion
of the Pope ; but that would have been an extreme mea-
sure. Sho did not adopt that course in the first instance,
and to do so now is too late. The Emperor could not adopt
it in the first instance, because it would have been inconsis-
tent with the principles on which the French empire is
founded. The French Emperor is in a very different position
from Louis XIV. Louis XIV. claimed to have the whole
power of the State, but the Emperor has declared that he
owes his power altogether to the pAnplc, and he cannot
contradict himself—he cannot act in contravention of the
principle on which his Government is founded, for there
are moral limits to the action of all monarchs. He
therefore could not adopt the extreme course of declaring
that the whole of the territory of the Roman States should
be placed under the dominion of, the Pope. (Hear, hear.)
The clergy of France have expressed their sympathy with
the Pope; and I will say nothing whatever against the
feeling which has been manifested by them towards the
Pope. On the contrary, I respect those feelings—l think
they are natural and generous, not only as expressions of
sympathy with mid-et-tune such as the Pope has been sub-
jected to, but that they are feelings of sympathy hallowed by
religion. But what I think the French clergy and meat of
the Roman Catholics in Europe desire is, not that the Pope
should continue in the state in which he now is, but that hie
should be restored to all his old powers. That is im-
possible, and the question is, is it desirable that the Pope
should remain in the position in which he now stands, and
is it desirable for France or for Europe that he should do so ?
This is the very last position which a military Power
ought to wish to occupy. 1 cannot, therefore, but express
my hope that France will reconsider the position in which
she stands, and will come to some conclusion more advan-
tageous to the general peace of Europe than that which
must follow from her remaining in occupation of Rome.
(Hear, hear.) Then, my lords, what is the position of the
Pope ? He has no means of support from the country re-
maining under his nominal government, but is obliged to
derive an income from tho casual charity of the faithful in
different parts of Europe, and of the French people more
particularly. He has a nominal but no real tempaserrOWer ;
and such is the weight of the temp...t considerations which
must oppress hi.. mat he cannot give his mind to the gene-
ral government of that Church of which he is the head.
He cannot perform the duties of his spiritual rule, and his
temporal rule is altogether taken away. In point of fact,
my lords, the Pope is in a position such as no clergy in
France—no clergy anywhere—no Roman Catholics any-
' where could wish the head of their Church to remain in.
(Hear, hear.) It is an object not only to the great Catholic
States, but to all States in which there is a large Catholic
population, that the Pope should be permanently estab-
lished in a state Of entire spiritual independence. (Hear,
hear.) The most effectual way of destroying foreign in-
fluence is by separating the temporal from the spiritual rule
of Roman Catholic populations, and leaving the Pope free
for the performance of his duties to that Church of which
he is the chief. (Hear.) I think, my lords, that it would
be most proper, before the Pope, left Rome, that every
arrangement necessary for securing his dignity and inde-
pendence should be come to. (Hear.) I am fin tiler of
opinion that in making these arrangements there should be
the greatest liberality. The personal expenditure of the
Pope is very limited, but he has a very large outlay in the
maintenance of palaces and galleries. He must be sur-
rounded by the old Swiss Guard and by an Italian Guard.
A considerable amount is necessary for enabling him to give
pensions to those Italian Cardinals the revenues of whose sees
are not sufficient, and he must have the means of supporting
. those establishments which have niated for centuries, All