The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-18 00:00:00

RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN SPAIN.

- - -
Sir It. PEEL, who had on the paper a motion for an
address which was recently presented to him for submis-
lion to her Majesty on the subject of the Spanish persecu-
tions,, said he brought the motion before the house
very reluctantly, in consequence of the indifference ex-
hibited by the noble lord at the head of the Government on
the subject. He had been requested by some British mer-
chants in Spain to draw the attention of the house to this
matter, and statin% an act of intolerance in reference to
Vaemselves. These merchants were in the habit of having
Protestant worship solemnised on Sundays at Xeres and
Port St. Mary alternately, bat the English consul at the
former place refused to allow such religious worship to be
performed at the consular residence. The party's name
was Gordon, and he was a Roman Catholic, and he assigned
as a reason for the prohiLition that he could not permit the
Protestant worship, as the British flag was hoisted on
ills residence, so that, in his official capacity
he was called on to interfere. These merchants offered to
pay for the services of a Protestant clergyman, but the
Council still refused to afford them any accommodation.
His object was to ask the noble lord the First Lord of the
Treasury, in the absence of the noble Foreign Secretary,
whether any steps had been taken on the part of the
Government to the Spanish Executive as to .the treat
meat of British Protestants resident in Spain.
Lord PALMERSTON said with regard to the question
relative to the removal of the tombstone it was a subject that
could be answered best by his right hon. friend the Home
Secretary, who was engaged in duties that prevented
his attendance. With reference to the question of the
honourable baronet (Sir It. Peel) ho (Lord Palmerston)
had received a memorial on the subject 'to which he alluded
which had been laid before her Majesty. Very full in- I
ktructions had been furnished by his noble friend the
Foreign Secretary to her Majesty's Minister at
7.dadrid, directing him to make the most urgent

representations to the Spanish Government in refer-
ence to their intolerant conduct in regard to Pro-
testants in Spain. The Spaniards were a people pe-
culiarly sensitive of any interference by foreigners
in their national affairs, and therefore any such
interference must be conducted with discretion. He was
glad to say that the Spanish Government seemed disposed
to grant the privileges desired by Protestants, and
to allow them to exercise their religious worship in
private houses, and to have schools where the
children could be educated in the tenets of their
religion. With regard to the general question, everybody
knew that Spain had in former times been governed on the
most intolerable principles, and there had even been
lamentable executions for the profession of religious
faith. A great improvement had taken place in
this particular, but the prejudices of former times still
exercised an influence on the national mind. However, he
was sure that eventually the Government, which was more
liberal than the people, would introduce the necessary im-
provement. He could assure the hon. bert. (Sir R. Peel)
that the executive of this country would do all in their
power relative to the subject.
Sir H. PEEL enquired if any steps would be taken re-
specting Mr. Gordon's conduct in regard to the case which
had been brought under the attention of the house.
Lord PALMERSTON said his noble friend, the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, would adopt steps suitable to the
circumstances of the case.
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to.
EDUCATION.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved an address for returns of
the number of inspectors and assistant inspectors of
schools under the committee of Privy Council on
Education, with the total payments received by them
in each year from 1540 to 1861, together with the names
of all clergymen of the Established Church who were in-
spectors or assistant-inspectors of schools under the said
committee in 1859 and 1860, with the total amount received
by each under the separate heads of salary, travelling and
personal expenses.—Ordered.
NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
On the motion for going into committee of supply,
Mr. WHIT EtsIDE moved the following r solutions :-
1. Thatthe advantages afforded by Parliamentary grants for
the purpose of education in Ireland ought not
to be denied to any school upon the ground
that the Holy Scriptures are daily read therein. 1
2. That a discretion should be vested in those who are en-
trusted with the administration of the Grant for Educational
Purposes in Ireland, to assist, with books and other school
requisites, all persons and societies engaged in carrying
on the work of moral and religions education in schools
in Ireland who may conscientiously decline to subscribe to
the rules of the National Board, subject, so far as relates to
secular education, to the inspection and control of the
officers of the board. 3. That the recent reconstruction of
the national board is not calculated to insure a satisfactory
administration of the Parliamentary grant for education in
Ireland. The hon. and learned gentleman said that it ap-
peared by the report of the committee that sat on this sub-
ject in 1812 that the educational wants of the country in
Ireland were not supplied by the parochial schools, but that
a body of gentlemen formed themselves into a society for
carrying out the work of education more extensively
than it could be conducted by the parochial clergy.
The Kildare-street Society educated 100,000 children for
£25,000 a year, and if they could do so much for a small
sum the house ought to bear that in mind when they came
to:consider what was done use, er the present system for a
large sum. Since the abolition of the Kildare-street Society,
those whom ?he represented had been excluded from the
benefits of education in consequence of conscientious scruples
which in Ireland was not much respected, particularly
when sincere. A general impression prevailed that what
was recommended by the commission was what was actually
done, But the very contrary was the case. It was recom-
mended that the existing schools should be kept up, and
and that where it was necessary, supplementary schools
should be added. It was thought that the parish schools
would answer this purpose best, and that each being under
the direction of the parish clergyman, the local manage-
ment would be simple and inexpensive. But subsequently
it was proposed to have larger schools, each to
include greater masses. When it was suggested to
Lord Derby, then Mr. Stanley, to establish schools
from which the Bible should be excluded, he said
that the public mind of England would not stand that.
The author of the book in which he had read this statement
ought not to have referred to a conversation which took
place at the Castle at a very late of night, but it was a re-
mark the sagacity of whleh had been justified by the result.
A boy in one of the Protestant schools in Ireland being
asked the question, what was the use of the Scriptures, re-
plied, " To guide our conduct in life." That was the opinion
held by Protestants generally, and if the Scriptures were to be
the guide of our conduct in life, how was it possible to carry
on education without them ? (Hear, hear.) The hon. and
learned gentleman then read an extract on this subject
from a work of Archbishop Whately, observing that with
such authority on his side, he was sure that, though he
I might be outvoted—though even that would be doubtful,
when the house heard what the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
Cardwell) had been doing since the last debate on this sub-
ject—he was sure he could not be out-argued. He com-
plained that, by the course now taken, Mr. Stanley's plan
had been subverted. Archbishop Whately had quitted
the board on that ground, considering that he would be
guilty of a breach of faith if he remained there when the
system was so carried out as not to satisfy the expectations
which he had assisted in raising. Several of the books that
had been recommended for the schools had been recently
excluded. A little work on the Evidences of Christianity,
written by Archbishop Whately himself, with all the clear-
ness and force of Paley, was amongst the books recom-
mended. That work was not to be found even in the
" model" schools, which ought to have all the works re-
commended, though others might be left free to take or
reject what they pleased. One of the rules had been so in-
terpreted that if, in a school of 100 children, one child of
nine years of age should object to a book, it must be ex-
eluded, and the Archbishop held that this could not possibly
be the intention of the rule. When the Archbishop found
that practical absurdity he left the board, saying that he
was as much as ever attached to the system of national
education as originally proposed, but that he felt bound
to retire on account of the abandonment of all fixed prin-
ciples, the subversion of the original system, and the mis-
application of the grant. The board was broken up in con-
sequence of the retirement of Archbishop Whately, Judge
Blackburne, and Mr. Wilson Greene. It was originally
designed that the schools should be open to all persuasions
and should be conducted with a due regard to parental right,
but in these respects they had failed. When religious in-
struction was given, it was required to put up a printed
notification as to the nature of that instruction, to which the
Protestant clergy very much objected, as it had the effect of
warning many of the children off the premises. By another
rule, the religious instruction was given half-an-hour before
the usual school hour. Now, children who were very willing
to receive religious instruction in school hours would come
half-an-hour earlier, so that in most cases the attend-
ance was very small. (It was very painful to the feelings of
clergymen, that after using the Bible they were obliged to
lock it up till the next day, so that it might not even by acci-
dent, be seen by the children during the hours of secular
instruction. There was this difference in the appearance
of these schools and the scriptural schools, that in the
latter the walls were ornamented with texts of Scrip-
ture, written in such large letters that very little
children could read them when they were doing little
better than looking at the walls. But if a Government
inspector entered such a school, he would order that to be
all taken down, and tell the schoolmaster to hang up maps,
or pictures of those hideous creatures that we are told had
lived before the flood to frighten the poor little children.
(A laugh.) For the expenditure of £300,000 they only
after all educated 263,000 persons, as was shown by
the return of classes, for the return of rolls was
useless as a criterion, since it included the name of
every child who showed his face at the school, though
he might stay away for months at a time. In England it
was usually found the, if tier roll was to be 500,000 it
might be expected that about 400000 would attend. But
in Ireland, if the roll was 105, about 49 might be expected
to attend. He had several times visited these schools, and
had never found on any occasion, that half the number on
the roll were present in the school. The number in the
Parish schools in the country did not exceed 150,600, and
this Was owing in a great extent to the popularity of the
nun's schools, which he was bound to say were the best
conducted
of any of the schools in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Ila re were
excluded fro:0,000 children in these convent schools.
, notwithstanding that, many Christian persons were
But n •
contributed by participation
schools supported paymentby
not less than
society alone there Were
ing scriptural education
who attended no other,
Bibles and Testaments, and
icipatiOn in the grant to which they
of taxes. There were in the
73,497 theseeh. friends of scriptural education
213ldoren. In the Sunday School
and of
children who were receiv-
ing
these there were 130,000
an
el, and more than 21,000
cational books, all of which were
supported by voluntary
quantity of edu-
efforts. He would ask the HousesutPoP
grounds did the Government refuse
to declare. upon what
eive a supply of
books to such a society as this, even if they would not
make any allowance out of the public grants for the salaries
of schoolmasters. The result of the voluntary efforts in
Ireland was to give education to 327,983 children, and
which was rt ally a larger number than was educated out of
the funds at the disposal of the commissioners of national
education. In Belfast there was a school of 1,000 Protest-
ant children, who were not allowed the slightest assistance
out of the funds at the disposal of the commissioners ; and
again he asked, why was it that their Protestants did not
receive some pecuniary assistance, because they wished to
have scriptural education 2 The hon. and learned member
proceeded to refer to some returns which had been laid be-
-1 f ore the house, containing the statistics on the subj ea of
! education. These returns were, he said, of the most illu-
sory character, and excited his indignation to the utmost
awainst the wretched system of red tapeism which prevailed
in the administering of this system. It was necessary to
administer some political emetic in order to draw up the
ball s:of readjaopbes
cwuhrieedh
theirlodg eidtia iang
itnhaet iso tnosm. a clivh shoe fn t
hh
ee scea rme de
tapeists,
to analyse this return, ho found that in many of the schools
which were returned as mixed, there was not more than
'one, IA some cases two, and in others three rroteptant chil-

dren. He called them phantom Protestants, for he believed
they were never seen in the flesh (A laugh.) The analysis
which had been made showed that there were 1,518 schools
where there was no pretence for saying mixed education ex-
isted. There were 218 prisons, workhouses, model and
agricultural schools where mixed education necessarily
existed, and the total number in which the mixed system
could be said fairly to exist was but 1.162 out of the 5,496.
In the province of Munster there was a total of 1,382
schoold ; of these 433 were mixed ; but out of this number
there were 398 schools in which the maximum number of
Protestants was not more than 9 to 105 of the Catholics.
In Leinster there were 509 schools, and of these 438 had
no more than nine Protestants to 105 Catholics; while in
Connaught there were 814 schools ; of these 354 were
mixed, and of these again there were as many as 242
with not more than nine Protestants, many of them
containing not more than one or two. In the county of
Carlow this state of things was still more strongly exhibited,
and the hon. member analysed in considerable detail the
statistics given of education in the schools of this country.
The whole number of schools in the county supported by
the State grants gave education to 2,715 Catholics and 99
Protestants ; while the schools supported by voluntary con-
tributions, educated 1,538 Protestants and 168 Catholics.
He next proceeded to refer to the county of Wicklow, one
which was in every respect deserving of admiration for the
peaceable, orderly, and industrious character of the people.
There had net been an execution is the county for the last
30 years. There was in the return one school returned at
Bray, where there were 176 Catholics and one Protestant.
He could never catch this young Protestant or see him, and
he believed that he was kir, d for the occasion, and put in
the school when the inspector was about to make his visit,
and that he was in the habit of running on from t his school
to appear again at some other and be returned as the " one
Protestant" which figured so frequently in these returns.
He did not blame the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for
Ireland because he had not invented, but had only spoilt, the
system. (A laugh.) He insisted upon it in the strongest
possible manner, that it was wrong for the Government to
exclude Protestants from any portion of the public grant,
on the ground that they wished to have the Scriptures read
in their schools. In the schools generally throughout Ulster
the proportion of pupils in attendance was one Roman Ca-
tholic to 120 or 130 Protestants. In Townsend-street school,
Belfast, there were 374 Protestants and one Roman Catholic.
In the model school in Dublin there were 112 Protestants
and 457 Roman Catholics, and in the smaller school 89
Protestants and 364 Roman Catholics ; but in the schools
situated in the parishes of St. Peter and St. Paul, Dublin,
there was only one Protestant in attendance. Could any
man of ordinary sense, then, allege that the mixed system
of education had been successful in Ireland ? (Hear.) There
were 119 convent schools in the country, which contained
42,909 scholars. These schools were conducted by ladies,
who made themselves familiar with the children, and minis-
tered to their temporal as well as spiritual wants. Would
any hon. member say that these schools, or schools from
which the Scriptures were excluded, were intended for the
education of the children of Protestants ? Why, of course,
not. Why, then, did not the Government extend the prin-
ciple of religious:education to the Protestants ? (Hear; hear.)
Now, how stood the money part of the question ? In the
year 1859, the Board received from the Treasury about
£208,000, and the balance in hand was £28,000. The ave-
rage salary given to the masters was £26 lls. 4d. In sala-
ries, the sum of £145,000 had been expended, and in allow-
ances to inspectors, £21,000. In Kells there were two na-
tional schools, the one opposite to the other. One was the
school belonging to the priest, in which there was not a
Protestant pupil, and the other was the school belonging to
Archdeacon Stopford, in which there was not a Roman
Catholic pupil. That was a specimen of the national sys-
tem. (Hear, hear.) As the board had not objected to the
establishment of a second school in the same town or district,
the result had been, that the Roman Catholics went to the
Roman Catholic school, and the Protestants to the Protes-
tant school ; and this was the mixed system of education
the Government patronised. (Hear, hear.) It was a very
remarkable fact that the more the grant for this purpose
had been increased, the more the number of pupils dimi-
nished. The Board of National Education in Ireland had
originally consisted of seven gentlemen. It was then ex-
tended to tau-teen, but only four attended, and, in fact, the
resident commissioners became masters of the whole system.
Upon this subject the Archbishop of Dublin, Mr. Cross, the
secretary, and Dr. Henry had been examined, and their
opinions as to the proper number to constitute the board,
and the times of their attendance, were exceedingly valuable.
He asked the house to consider, with an impartial mind,
'why it was that the body in Dublin had appointed the
present board. It was simply to establish a denominational
system, and such a board was by no means a proper body to
have control in a matter of the kind. He objected to the
whole construction of the board, and contended that its very
constitution was of a nature to render it altogether useless.
There were 10 Roman Catholic gentlemen on the board,
and there were hardly any non-official persons on it, and he
objected to its constitution and practice an Coto. He should
propose to sweep away a board which gave no satisfaction
to Protestants and no power to Catholics, and establish a
commission which would carry out those moderate argu-
ments which would give satisfaction to all parties. (Hear,
hear.)
The O'CONOR DON craved the indulgence which the
house always extended to a new member. (Hear, hear.)
It would be his duty, on the present occasion, to vote upon
the res ^lutions and not upon the speech of the right hon.
gentleman, which seemed to him, he must say, to have been
a little inconsistent with them. In a great portion of the
speech he fully concurred; hut he could not say the same
of the resolutions, for he did not think that they would
afford to all parties the same advantages—in fact, he might
term them sectarian or party resolutions. (Hear.) The
first declared that aid was to be refused to no school in
which the Holy Scriptures were read. They would there
fore cause the aid to be given solely to Protestant denomi-
national schools. To be sure, that was not the interpreta-
tion which the right hon. gentleman had put upon it, but
he must take it as it stood. The right hon. gentleman said
that by his second resolution the schools of the Christian
brothers would gain a great advantage. But what was that
advantage ? Merely that they should have books and school
requisites ; whereas Protestant schools were to have all they
required. (Cheers.) Even that trifling benefit was to be
solely at the discretion of the board of commissioners, with
which the right hon. gentleman found so much fault. It
certainly did seem strange that the right hon. gentleman
should propose to entrust such large power to a board
which he had so strongly condemned. (Hear.) He fully
agreed with the right hon. gentleman that the present sys-
tem had not been successful, and that it was not in truth a
mixed system ; but he did not thick that the evil would be
remedied by the scheme proposed by the right hon. gentle-
man—at least in his resolutions. The first did not permit
religious instruction to be given in any other form than the
reading of the Scriptures. Now, Roman Catholics did not
object to the reading of the Scriptures in their schools; but
they did not think that the reading of the Scriptures alone
—even in the Douay version—was sufficient (Hear, hear.)
To permit religious instruction to be given by one party in
the form which they thought sufficient, and to refuse the
same privilege to another, was not in accordance with the
principle of religious liberty; and that was not merely his
(the O'Conor Don's) opinion, it was the opinion of Lord
Derby, as expressed in his reply to the proposition of the
Ulster Synod in 1833, when the noble earl, then Mr. Stan-
ley, was Secretary for Ireland. If they allowed to one
party—he cared not which—a privilege which they refused
to others, they violated the principle of religious liberty.
(Hoar.) Few Roman Catholics approved of the system as
at present carried out; though there was some difference
between them as to the nature of the remedy that was re-
quired. ,Foome of them thought that the system might be
improved, others that there could be no change for the better
without a radic2l alteration. Some thought that all thai
was wanting was morely a return to the plan as it was esta•
blished by Mr. Stanley'—for there could be no doubt that
that plan -had sine beers largely departed from. (Hear.)
For his own part he did not think any change would suf-
fice short of a radical alteration of the system. The objec-
tions of Roman Catholics had been set forth in a letter re-
cently laid on the table, and addressed to the Chief Secre-
tary by a majority of the Catholic members. They had also
been fully explained by the hon. member for Dungarvan.
One of the principal respects in which the system had
been varied since its establishment by Mr. Stanley was
that the children were no longer excluded from the
religious instruction. Mr. Stanley had plainly laid down
the rule that there should be a united secular and a sepa-
rate religious education. (Hear, hear.) Another point
clearly laid down by him was that the religious instruction
should be under the control of the clergy; whereas the
authority of the clergy had latterly been denied, and their
interference had been treated almost as if it were an imper-
tinence. Another and more important change was that
whereas the children of a different religion were formerly
ordered to leave the school before the religious instruction
was commenced, the present rule was merely that the
patrons should not force them to be present. He was aware
the Chief Secretary contended that the rule had not been
altered, and that it had merely been interpreted ; but it
was really a matter of no moment which had been done;
for the fact remained th at a great change had taken place.
(Hear, hear.) It was said that there had been no cases of
proselytism. That might be so ; but what was chiefly to
be feared was that children might learn to be bad Catholics
without becoming good Protestants. It was not to be ex-
pected that they would be proselytised, because though they
attended religious instruction with Protestants, they would
go to the churches usual with their parents ; but what was
to be feared was that hearing the teaching of the Sunday
contradicted by that of the week day, they might cease to
believe either. They had heard that this system was one
which would put an end to religious dissension in Ireland;
but did experience bear them out in this ? He was happy
to say that experience had shown that religious dissension
had to a great extent declined. It had declined everywhere
except in the province where mixed education to the largest
ex tent had been carried on. In that province where mixed
education had chiefly prevailed religious dissension was
most
rules they had made them apparently only to be broken—
(hear)—so
as far as experience went, it was against
where they had made the most stringent
the principle of mixed education. But did not theory sug-
gest the same:result ? Theory would suggest exactly the
same thing. He was happy to believe that no Christian,
form of roligi9A avowed discord gad stciht Dissensions,