The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 10, .t 5359.

hesitation I give my support to the amendment of my noble
friend. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—The right hon. gentleman who has
just spoken, with more than his usual ability and lucidity,
has informed the house—and I must say in a somewhat
confident tone—of the certainty of the amendment of the
noble lord being affirmed by the vote of the house. If,
after a fair and impartial hearing the house is of opinion
that the amendment ought to be carried, why of course the
decision will be one to be submitted to with cheerfulness
and respect by her Majesty's Administration. (A laugh.)

But before that decision is arrived at common justice re-
quires that something should be said and heard on behalf
of an Administration whom the right hon. gentleman, with
all deference to him, has maligned. We were prepared for
this amendment, long before the noble lord gave his notice,
by the discussions that for some weeks before the meeting
of Parliament took place in the press. I confess that I read
those discussions with pain and humiliation. (Laughter
from the Opposition and cheers from the Ministerialists.)
There was in them no exposition of principle, no statement
of future luminous measures. There was no profound
policy sketched out, but the burthen of all the articles was
this—will the noble lord the member for London agree with
the noble lord the member for Tiverton ? (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Oh ! happy day; oh 1 joyful hour—the noble
lord the member for London smiles at the noble lord the
member for Tiverton. (Laughter.) The Morning lowers,
a dark cloud brings on the day, for the noble lord the mem-
ber for Tiverton frowns on the noble lord the member for
London. On the smile or on the frown of the noble lord
the member for Tiverton, according to the opinion of the
advocates of that noble lord, depend the hopes, the fears,
the fate, and the glory of England. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment are still in their places, but why ? Because the noble
lord the member for Tiverton in his last speech in the last
Parliament condemned them to maintain their places. (A
laugh.) .What did the noble lord say ? He said, Why you
are a most provoking party, your discipline is so perfect,
your order is so complete that when I wish you to speak
you maintain silence. In anticipation of the noble lord we
were silent ; while he spoke of course we were speechless,
because we were under the wand of the Enchanter. (Laugh-
ter.) But what has he said ? From the position he holds I
suppose he rose to expound the principles of the new coali-
tion. And how did he argue his impeachment ? Was there
ever, even for a man of his imagination, a speech more singu
holy destitute of freshness or novelty ? (Hear, hear.) He
commenced with the old story of the Conspiracy Bill, and I
must say the noble lord was not very respectful to the last Par-
liament that heard that measure discussed and that decided
against it, because he expressed no remorse, no repentance
for having introduced that bill. In point of fact, while he
commented upon the conduct of the Government he cen-
sured the Parliament that censured him, and so disposed of
the conspiracy Bill. Then he proceeded to India. But
how tiresome it is to refer to an old debate, to discuss how
the India Bill was carried. From a practical man we might
have expected a proof, if that were possible, that the
Government of India under my noble friend was weakly, in-
efficiently, or corruptly conducted. If the affairs of India
have been wisely and well managed it is a poor ground on
which to impeach the Ministry to refer to a former debate
which led to the carrying of the measure under which the
Government of India is now conducted. (Hear, hear.) Well,
then, he said, all your domestic measures have been
failures. Now, the noble lord is a fair opponent in debate.
Is that accurate ? I might ask him, when attacked with
respect to the domestic measures of this country, with what
measure of utility his name is to be associated. (Cheers.)
Might I take the liberty of inquiring of him what is the
character of that measure for the sale of land in England,
on the introduction of which the hon. and learned member
for Wolverhampton congratulated my hon. and learned
friend, the Solicitor-General, upon serving a Ministry that
allowed him to bring forward a measure of so large a nature ?
(Cheers) What right has the noble lord to asperse the
Administration and say,—You never proposed a domestic
measure that was not a failure, throwing out that imputa-
tion in the lump, but not condescending to details ? The
noble lord who moved his amendment in a speech that was
very graceful and eloquent, and contained, I presume, an
exposition of the principles of unadulterated Whiggism—
(a laugh)—expounded what the principles of Mr. Fox were.
He said he wished to see those principles upheld by the
great party to which he belongs, instead of the opinions of
Pitt and Castlereagh being acted upon, and he stated cor-
rectly what the opinions of that great champion of popular
liberty were. I admit thirt Mr. Fox advocated the principle
of non-intervention in the affairs of foreign States. Nay,
he went the length of insisting, against Mr. Pitt, that when
the French nation cut off the heads of the King and of the
Queen of France England had no right to interfere. (Hear,
hear.) I admit the principles of the noble lord, and
the only thing I quarrel with is their application, because,
adopting his principle and adopting the argument of the
noble lord, I shall insist upon the vote of the hon. member
for Birmingham as a just man against the speech that he
has made to night, if he would rather, as he stated on a
former occasion, vote against those who would be in favour of
a policy of interference, than vote for those who would be in
favour of the disfranchisement of one or two rotten boroughs.
I shall apply myself solely to the question of Italy. Diplo-
matists are pleased to say that there is something in the
question of foreign politics which is difficult for plain,
every-day men to understand, but there is no such difficulty
in this case. The noble lord who moved this amendment
and the noble lord the member for Tiverton argue that the
conduct of the Government has led to this war, and
that the management of foreign affairs would be in safer
and wiser kinds if transferred to those who sit opposite,
but I will disprove that by a very short and temperate
statement. What was the state of Europe in 1848 ? Louis
Philippe was overthrown, France could not engage in th e
affairs of Italy, because she was in a state of disturbance.
Radetsky and the Austrians had withdrawn from Milan,
and the Austrians proposed to the English Government to
deliver up the whole kingdom of Lombardy if we would act
as mediators. The noble lord was informed that the fate
of Italy was in the hands of England,. because France could
not interfere. The noble lord himself has stated that the
object of the great act of 1815 was to exclude the French
from Italy—that Lombardy was forced almost on Austria,
and that she took it unwillingly to preserve the balance of
power. The noble lord has contradicted me once before,
unfortunately, in this matter, but I hardly think he will
contradict me again. Let me call the attention of the right
hon. baronet the member for Carlisle to the part which he
took in this very transaction, because how he and the noble
lord are to sit together in the same Cabinet I cannot un-
derstand. (Laughter.) ;A special message came from
Austria to the noble viscount, and offered to the noble vis-
count the entire kingdom of Lombardy if we would inter-
pose as mediators in the quarrel. After 10 days' conside-
ration the noble viscount answered that England would not
interfere unless Austria would also agree to give up Venice.
Lord Ponsonby apprised the noble lord that Austria would
not give up Venice—and our offer was refused. Radetsky
drew the sword—the war broke out in Italy—what fol-
lowed everybody knows, and I assert that the noble lord
is thus the author of all the confusion which now prevails
there. (Cheers.) Lord Normanby knows the truth of this,
for four months afterwards the noble lord opposite wrote to
him a despatch imploring him to use all his influence with
the French Government to induce Austria to repeat the
offer she had made, but Austria refused, and told us it was
too late. (Hear.) The right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle, who to-night stands up by his eloquence to en-
deavour to bring back the noble lord to power, investigated
this question carefully and closely, and let me read to you
the bitter words in which he described the noble lord's con-
duct and character. " Austria," he said,—
" Austria, at the moment the first onset was made, ap-
pealed to the noble viscount and to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, in the midst of its difficulties, to mediate between her
and Piedmont. But what was the sine qua non on our part
towards a friendly Power in the midst of difficulties ? The
noble viscount insisted, as a condition precedent to an accept-
ance of the mediation, that Austria should not only abandon
Lombardy but surrender Venice ; and as Austria would not
consent to the surrender of Venice, the noble viscount de-
clined to undertake the mediation. It is impossible to say
what has been the effect of that act of the noble viscount.
My belief is, that the insurrection of Hungary was the con-
sequence ; and, what I regret as much as any man, the in-
tervention of Russia, the interference of that country to
crush the Hungarian insurrection having thus been
rendered necessary."

That is pretty well—(cheers)—but I maintain it to be true,
if it were not I would not quote it. (Cheers.) And now
follows worse : _ _ • _ _

"Has the noble viscount promoted the cause of Italian
liberty by the cause he has pursued ? Piedmont was twice
in one year at the mercy of the invading army of Austria.
Rome is in possession of the French army. Lombardy is
under the military rule of Austria. Venice was reconquered.
And we cannot forget the daring exploits in Naples, which
the noble viscount was so anxious to uphold."
(Cheers.) That is the summary of a foreign policy of a
Minister who has told you in this debate that the foreign
policy of this country is in such unsafe hands that unless
you transfer the management of it to him—him, who is
branded by the right hon. member for Carlisle as the author
of the war in Italy and the insurrection in Hungary—you
will not discharge your duties to your constituents. (Cheers.)
I see opposite, too, a right hon. gentleman who signed the
circular to call the meeting at Willis's Rooms, who under-
stands the Italian question well, an'a he, I remember, in this
very matter charged the noble viscount with what I should
be slow to impute to him—equivocating with the ambassa-
dors of Foreign Powers, and dealing with the Ministers of
other States in the spirit of an attorney. (Loud cheers.)
That is the opinion of a right hon. gentleman, the member
for Wilts, who called a meeting to restore the noble lord to
power. It was in reference to a matter of which I dare say
the noble lord the member for the city of London will re-
member something—the political escapades of Lord Minto in
Italy—"the wanderingmissionary," as Sir W. Molesworth
called him. (Laughter.) Did any man ever hear of a
Government sending out a nobleman to exhort the subjecti
of a foreign State to insurrection, to make speeches to the
crowd from a balcony, and call odt to them " Viva r Inde-
penza d' Italia." (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman gave
the house an admirable summary of all the absurdities and
follies which were perpetrated by that noble lord under the
direction of the noble viscount opposite. This is what he
said

" Well, we got deeper and deeper into the mire of those
arrangements—till, step by step, the noble lord arrived at
the conclusion, that Sicily must be separated from Naples,
and set up as an independent State. Sicily, with a popula-
tion not exceeding that of this town—the only question
with him being whether that State should be a republic or
monarchy. We began by promoting constitutional reforms ;
we ended by promoting separate nationalities."
The ability with which the factsrelating to this matter were
investigated by the right hon. gentleman, and the scornand
ridicule which lie heaped upon them, convince me that, if
with his experience and knowledge of Italian affairs he sits
down in the Cabinet of the noble lord, it will last but a very
short period. (Cheers.) Without all their teeth drawn I
can't conceive how this happy family is to get on—(laugh-
ter)—but I am convincal that if such a Cabinet did not
speedily fall to pieces it would plunge the foreign policy of
the country deeper into the mire than it had ever been be-
fore. (Cheers.) I agree with the noble marquis who moved
this amendment, that Fox laid down correct prinoiples as to
the foreign policy of this country ; but I submit to him that
I have shown the noble viscount opposite to have violated
them most signally in this instance at least. (Cheers.)
What is the meaning of non-intervention ? Every law book
on international law lays it down that you haye no right to
interfere in the domestic affairs of a foreign nation, but I
should like to ask any reasonable man—not a diplomatist—
why did we withdraw our ambassador from Naples ? As I
understand if, the meaning of that act was that France and
England were of opinion that they had a right to enlighten
Naples as to the manner in which she ought to conduct her
internal Government. It could not mean anything else, for

13

Naples never showed any disp cssition to attack or insult us
that I ever heard of. What tin becomes of the noble lord's
practice of Fox's principles of n on-intervention ? (Cheers.)
But what do you say to the noble" ,lord's behaviour to Belgium F
Belgium is a free State ; Belgii am took no part in the Rus-
sian war, and never made an. r attack upon us; yet, what
was done by the famous Tr, laty of Paris with respect to
Belgium ? Why, Lord Clare/16 lon arid the representatives
of France, without any notice to, Igelgium, signed a treaty,
purely, I believe, to gratify :Emperor of the French,
compelling her to modify her p:ess according to the
demands that might be made upon her the Government
of France. (Hear, hear.) These are my chort grounds for
stating that the foreign policy of the noble lord hag been
incomprehensible, and that you ought not to change the
Administration at least' upon that ground. But there are
other points that have beea made in the course of tliis dis-
cussion, and I come at °ace to the speeches of the hon.
member for Birmingham and the right hon. baronet the
member for Carlisle. It has been said that comparisons are
odious ; but I protest that I prefer the manly, open, bold,
and candid oppssition of the hon. member for Birmingham
to the slow, subtle accusations of the right hon. baronet,
delivered with much solemnity, but with no small sarcasm.
(Hear.) The right hon, baronet comes before you, he says,
an injured man, and in a most unforgiving manner he for-
gives you. (A laugh.) What right has he to represent
himself as an injured man ? I, too, like others, have read
his speech at Carlisle, and I have to call him to account
now for his imputations upon me and the Government of
which I am a member, and he shan't escape me. When the
right. hon. gentleman speaks under the blue flag of Carlisle
a sacred flame of vehemence is kindled within his breast,
and he employs a very different tone there from the calm,
and solemn, and deliberate manner in which from the
heights of his philosophy he lays down his maxims for your
adoption. But what right had he to attack my right hon.
friend at the head of the Admiralty, or my gallant friend
the Secretary for War, in a manner so unjustiable that he
has been compelled to withdraw his accusations ? (Cheers.)
Is it only the honour of the member for Carlisle that is
sacred in this country ? What was the meaning of his
coming here to-night fortified with his placard in his
pocket ? What was his accusation ? It was that an act of
corruption had been perpetrated by a gentleman as pure in
his public conduct as any man who ever crossed the
threshhold of this house ? And what is his excuse for that
unjustifiable charge ? That he had forgotten that the change
made in the allowance to the soldiers was done under an
Act of Parliament. He admits that he was entirely mis-
taken; and then, he says, "I charged an act of profligacy
and corruption. I find that I was all wrong, but you ought
to be greatly obliged to me for confessing my error, when
I couldn't help it." (" Hear," and a laugh.) The real
fact is that the War-office circular to which the right hon.
baronet referred was the immediate consequence of the pass-
ing of the Mutiny Act. It was issued and signed by the
Secretary of State without any communication whatever
with the Secretary at War, and the Under Secretary who
drew out the circular was Sir B. Hawes, who is, I believe,
an excellent Whig, and according to the tenets of gentle-
men opposite a Whig can do no wrong. The right hon.
baronet this evening said that ho would not notice Galway
and the Lever line of packets ; but I say that he shall no-
tice it. (Hear, hear.) I assure the right hon. gentleman
that when his speech reached Ireland it very much hurt the
feelings of many persons there; and you will observe that
the advocate of popular rights speaking on the hustings
considers that he has a license there that wouldn't belong
to him elsewhere. He says—" What is the case as to Gal-
way? Here I can speak more positively." He certainly
was more positively wrong if possible. (A laugh.) But
must read his charge in his very words. After stating the
nature of the Cunard contract he comes to the charge of
corruption, his object being to account for the result of an
election which had recently taken place in Ireland, not ac-
cording to the truth, but according to his own uncharitable
exposition of the matter. When I have shown the right
hon. gentleman that his statement is utterly groundless, I
have no doubt that, with the same generosity that has
characterised his retraction of all the other charges, he will.
in the handsomest manner possible, make reparation 4,4;
those whom he has aggrieved. His charge is this :

Now Government bethought themselves, at the in-
stance of a valuable body of members in the west Ire-
land, that it would be desirable to add to this cotir,eunica-
tion a communication by Galway, at a cost of 170,000 a-
year. I say it would have been cheaper for t!„e people of
England to give the Government £100,01)',) capital to be
expended in secret service money in buytag up the Galway
votes and debauching the voters ratl2e:e than £70,000 under
contract for seven years."

The charge is too plain to 11e misunderstood. You, the
members far the West of Ireland, made a corrupt proposi-
tion to a corrupt Government, and that corrupt Govern-
ment, on the eve of an election, made this bargain, whereas
it would have been cheaper to have bought you, and to have
given you the means of debauching the voters of Ireland.
The right hon. gentleman is familiar, I have no doubt, with
the writings of Sheridan, and he will remember that that
incomparable wit describes those who draw upon their ima-
gination for their facts. Where, I ask, were the facts to
justify that statement made upon the hustings at Carlisle?
What authority had he—l will not say for inventing, but
for imagining that charge which he brought against a body
of members of this house, and against the Government of
which lam a humble member ? That accusation is utterly
destitute of foundation. (Cheers.) I beg to inform the
right hon. gentleman that neither Lord Eglinton, nor Lord
Derby, nor any member of the Government would be guilty
of the foul practice to which he adverted any more than he
would himself. What are the facts which he did not make
himself acquainted with ? In 1852 I sat upon a committee
which was held at the Mansion-house in Dublin, when:a
most eminent merchant, Mr. Guinness, was Lord Mayor of
Dublin, and upon the committee were Mr. G. A. Hamil-
ton, Colonel Latouche, the present Chancellor of Ireland,
the Lord Mayor, and myself. The question which was
submitted by a large body of mercantile men to that com-
mittee was, whether, in consequence of the great traffic
that existed between Ireland and America, it might not
be possible to establish a packet communication be-
tween Galway and Halifax, which the map showed to be
the shortest line of communication between the two conti-
nents. I ventured myself to write a pamphlet on the sub-
ject—although the discerning public would not read it—(a
laugh)—to prove what I had believed for many years. The
Belfast Chamber of Commerce investigated the subject, and
so did various other mercantile bodies throughout Ireland.
The Belfast iren said, "If we get this communication from
Galway, we will complete the lines of railway from the
west to the north—we will semi all our traffic to the west of
Ireland—we shall have a mail which will give us our letters
and remittances two days earlier than we receive them now ; ,
and as an integral part of the British empire we think that
we have a right to this accommodation." (Hear, hear.)
Now, what was the contract ? Not one farthing has been
paid upon it yet, and never will be unless it be possible to
construct that description of vessel which shall make the
passage from Galway to Halifax in six days. When those
vessels shall be made and that accomplished the contract
may take effect; but not tell then. Now, every member
of Parliament from the north, south, east, and west of Ire-
land was in favour of that communication; but the right
hon. baronet, instead of viewing with favour the feeling
of an entire nation, and recognising its right to demand a
moderate stipend to promote the traffic between two great
and free countries, turns round upon the Govern-
ment, and stigmatises them as corrupt for listen-
ing to these just and reasonable demands. I warn the
right honourable baronet, and he will excuse me for giving
him this warning. The elections for Ireland are over.
For the first time since 1829 a Conservative majority has
been returned. (A. voice—How ?) Let him not suppose that
if he do, by the confidence of the country, gain political
power, that he can use it not to promote and advance the
good of all classes. (Hear, hear.) Is it true that Galway is
corrupt ? Why the noble lord who represents that town is
in opposition to the Government. The interest of his family
is rather given to the noble viscount. I never heard that he
has been corrupted by the contract. I have never heard it,
and I do not believe it. He will vote, I suppose, against the
Government, as he has always manfully done, and that will
be the best refutation of the charge that the members of
the west of Ireland have been debauched or corrupted.
(Hear, hear.) The next point which the right hon. baronet
made was the Catholic compact. Too long the Whigs used
the religious question for their own benefit. (Cheers.) As
long as the Roman Catholics of Ireland voted for the Whigs
they were a virtuous, enlightened, grateful, and consistent
people. After the Whigs have for many years possessed
power and done nothing—after long experience of their in-
ability to do any good for the country, the Roman Catholics
think fit to exercise the franchise in favour of native gen-
tlemen who in former Parliaments have been their repre-
sentatives. They say they are tired of all agitators, Peelite
and Whig, and they have returned—to their honour be it
spoken—men whomthey canbelieve. (Cheers.) I now inform
the right hon. baronet that I will retort on him; coalitions are
odious. As for myself, Ido represent my native university,
and it is the highest honour which I can ever hope to
possess. But the right hon. baronet is mistaken if he sup-
poses that I am about to join him and the religious jour-
nals, as they are called, which write up the noble viscount
by defaming and maligning the Roman Catholics because
they thought proper to support, without corruption, men
who, I trust, will benefit the empire. A coalition is a very
odious thing. There has been a coalition Government.
The noble viscount was Home Secretary, and the right hon.
baronet was then in office. A coalition was made in Ire-
land which will never be forgotten, as zhe saying is, "while
grass grows and water flows." Mr. John Sadleir was made
a Lord of the Treasury. (Cheers.) I have just had in my
hands the papers relating to the last of that party. He was
placed in the Income-tax-office, and has become a defaulter.
One was expelled from this house. Another left it, and
another was likewise in the Income-tax-office, and carried
off some thousands of pounds of the public money. (Cheers.)
That was a coalition which we can all understand and re-
member. lam of opinion that the rank and distinction
which were then given to the leader of the bank gave credit
and circulation to its paper, and when ruin overtook the
former he asked who was it placed this man in power.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for the City of
London is not likely to inquire how it happens i thatis on
heersdoeal
s
not possess that popularity in Ireland to which
virtues, commanding talents, and great distinctionp might
entitle him. I have always received the greatest courtesy
from the noble lord, but insult is remembered more than
injury. He has described the Protestants as a miserable,
• monopolising party. He has described the Roman Catho-
lics in a passage which is not original, for I found it in one
of the orations of Mr. Fox. (Derisive cheers.) .
Lord J. RUSSELL—I quoted from Mr. Fox, and I
stated at the time that Mr. Fox had used it. (Loud Oppo-
sition cheers.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—We have only been accustomed to
it in Ireland in its original shape, and I am glad the noble
lord was so candid as to refer to the authority which he
quoted. (Loud cries of "Oh I") It is a very small matter
to quote from Mr. Fox. We all do it, and we cannot quote
from a higher authority. It was said that when Parlia-
ment created the £l2 voting franchise in Ireland the Con-
servative party wonld be destroyed ; but the fact is that it
is ten times stronger. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. bart.
talked of the Catholic combination, and said he had read in
the speeches of the hon. member for Dundalk something
about a charter, and that we had granted it.

—S-ir J. GRAHAM—I said it was incredible that you
should advise it.

Mr. WHITESIDE—I understood the right hon. baronet
to insinuate that, coupled with the fact that I am member
• for a Protestant University, though it is not exclusively
Protestant, and has not been for the last 60 years, I was
to assent in some way to this charter which is to be granted
hereafter to a college in Dublin.
Sir J. GRAHAM—I said just the reverse, that it was
incredible you should advise such a charter. 41ear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—That is a mode of speech. When
a man wishes to state anything he says it is quite incredible.
(Loud cheers.) I will give a clear and satisfactory account
of what happened on that subject. Twenty-five members
of Parliament waited as a deputation upon the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, as 25 members waited upon 'him in
reference to the land question, and they asked the Minister
to be good enough to consider the subject. It was totally
unconnected with the elections, and I believe occurred a
month or two before the election. Let me ask wh they
should not do so, if they thought fit? (Hear, hear. We
see what am the ideas of the right hon. baronet. I mem-
bers of Parliament only ask what he approves, they are very
well behaved men, but if they notify that they have a de-

mand to make o a public nature, which is published in the
newspapers, 't is some conspiracy. These 25 members did
wait upon. the Minister. The Minister heard them for the
first time in his life, and informed them that the subject
would be considered. Neither myself, nor the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, nor the Lord Lieutenant, nor my noble
friend the Chief Secretary, nor any one that I know ef,
directly or indirectly, gave any promise, express or implied,
to induce those gentlemen to give any vote they do not
choose to give on this or any other night. (Cheers.) The
right hon. baronet is accustomed to give us the
chilling tes-
timony of his experience of political life. lam not a very
old member, nor have I long been a servant of the Crown
but I understand it to be my duty, as a servant of tb?e
Crown, to act directly, honestly, and in a manner
will bear the test of investigation, and I do not undere:,,ed
the policy to which the right. hon. baronet is accus4,,orned if
it be that description of policy to which he mayreferred.
(Hear.) I will state everything in reference o the Catholic
party without reservation. They called or the Minister and
asked hint whether he would undelak--- a settlement of the
land question. I believe that is a 'question toched. The hon whichmem-
they
are sincerely and conscientiously 'atta:
ber for Dungarvon applied to .
me to know when those bills
would be brought in. 11
priest who had been e called attention to the case of a
vTicted and deprived of the value of
his improvements,
av-v2l he asked whether such a grievance
could not be mine
died. I answered that I thought it could,
but I never to !.d any
man living, save members of the Go-
vernment, what would be the provisions of the measures I
should T.:epos°. ;They had not the shabby mode of coming
and Faiing, " Before we vote, tell us what you can do for
us." (Hear, hear.) That independent party have never
asked directly or indirectly for a place, and they have never
received it. The hon. gentleman refused to be a magistrate
of the town which he represents, which I think an absurd
decision, because a Roman Catholic has a right to be a
magistrate as much as a Protestant. (Cheers.) Mr. Fagan,
who is now no more, called attention to the investigation
into the 'University f Dublin,*and said that all the recom-
rnendationa had not been carried into effect. My noble
friend uudertook that question, and we did found some ad-
ditionea scholarships, which were thrown open to members
of the Roman Catholic religion. (Hear, hear.) I am not
astamed to have advised and to approve of that measure.
Hear, hear.) If the Roman Catholics prefer to come to
the ancient university which I represent they will be
heartily welcome; they will meet with no insult, no discour-
tesy; they twill inform their minds by the study of the
noble works of antiquity, and will 'come to public life better
prepared for the duties which they have to discharge.
That has been our conduct with reference tQ Irish measures;
and if the people are contented with them, that is the highest
praise which the Government can receive. The hon. and
learned member for Cork (Mr. Serjeant Deasy) very feel-
ingly objected to two appointments—throse of the Chan-
cellor and the Attorney-General. Their was very natural.
He thinks that those officers might be, changed with advan-
tage, and he possesses both the abili ties and the inclination
to undertake their duties. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He
asked me what the criminal code is to be. A measure has
been prepared establishing bne criminal statute law for
England and Ireland. The conspiracy to murder question
and some others are cle•Alt with in that measure, which,
while it reduces the ce.aes in which offences are to be
punished by death, 'simplifies and consolidates the law ;
thus accomplishing "that which, under the administration
of the noble visraunt, the Statute Law. Commissioners
could never effect Was it, then,' worthy of the right hon.
baronet,—is it 'worthy of eminent men in this country to
try to raise arBainst us the religious question in Ireland ?
(Hear, hear .) We have not compromised our faith or our
religion. -We hold both sacred, but we have learnt to think
we can rr.aintain both with perfect sincerity and consistency,
with charity and justice to all classes of our fellow country-
mela ; and I am of opinion that the people of Ireland will,
whey, they are once satisfied of that, be as willing to give their
cor Hence to the Protestant gentry of that country as to
any other set of politicians. Never forget the Income-tax.
Never forget the conduct of the right hon. gentleman the
member for Wells, who, immediately before the debate
on the budget of 1852, penned up a small number of Irish
members in a corner, and told them that they might be sure
the Income-tax would never be extended to Ireland. (Hear,
hear.) They rejected the budget, they destroyed the Go-
vernment, and they got in return the income-tax and a
personal explanation. (Cheers.) Recollect that when you
give your votes, and do justice to the present Government.
Sir R. Peel, when about to be condemned according to the
principles of Rhadamanthus, who punished first and in-
quired afterwards, once said in this house :

" I call upon you not to condemn before you have heard,
to receive at least the measures I shall propose, to amend
them if they are defective, to extend them if they shall fall
short of your expectations ; but at least to give me the op-
portunity of presenting them, that you yourselves may
consider and dispose of them."
I ask the house, is it just upon the invitation of the two
noble lords who have now composed their differences to de-
stroy the ministry before they have been heard ? (" Oh,
oh," and cheers.) And to do it, why ? Observe the fair
and manly argument of the hon. member for Birmingham,
how unlike the speech of the right hon. baronet I That hon.
gentleman said, " I do not object to the dissolution.
Ido not object to your foreign policy. Ido not
charge you with corruption at the elections, because I
have no facts to go upon." On what ground then, does
he quaerel with us ? Upon the one single ground of
Parliamentary reform. The hon. gentleman is about to
descend from being the leader of a great party to become
the follower or assistant of the noble lord the member for
Tiverton. The noble lord will, no doubt, be very comfort-
able when he has on one side of him the right hon. member
for Ashton-under-Lyne, and on the other the hon. member
for Birmingham. (A laugh.) Biography is a delightful
study. The hon. member for Birmingham is a master at
sketching character, and the noble viscount the member for
Tiverton is not behind him in that art. The hon. member
for Birmingham has sketched the character of the noble
viscount, and the noble viscount has returned the compli-
ment. The hon. gentleman said of the noble lord—

"I have observed the noble viscount's conduct ever since
I had the honour of a seat in this house, and the noble vis-
count will excuse me if I state the reason why I heave often
opposed him. The reason is, that the noble viscount treats
all these questions, and the house itself, with such a want
of seriousness, that it has appeared to me that he has no
serious, or sufficiently serious, conviction of the important
business that so constantly comes before this house. I
judge the noble viscount as a man who has experience, but
who with experience has not gained wisdom ; as a man who
has age, but who with age has not the gravity of age, and
who now, occupying the highest seat of power, has (and I
say it with pain) not appeared affected with the due sense of
the responsibility that belongs to that elevated position.
We are nowin the hands of these two noble lords. They are
the authors of the Russian war. It lies between them that
peace was not made at Vienna upon some proper terms, and
whatever disasters may be in store for this country, or for
Europe, they will lie at the doors of these noble lords."
(Cheers.) The noble viscount has favoured us with his
view of the political character of the hon. member for Bir-
mingham. Speaking of that hon. gentleman, he said—
" He (Mr. Bright) asks me to explain the meaning of the
balance' of power. Now, the hon. member for Manchester
and I differ so much upon almost every question involving
great principles (cheers), that I am afraid I shall be unable
to gratify him by complying with his request to explain the
meaning of the expression the balance of power.' The hon.
member, however, reduces everything to the question o
pounds, shillings, and pence, and I verily believe that if this
country were threatened with an immediate invasion likely
to end in its conquest, the hon. member would sit down,
take a piece of paper, and would put on one side of the
account the contributions which his Government would
require from him for the defence of the liberty and in-
dependence of the country, and he would put on the other
the probable contributions which the general of the in-
vading army might levy upon Manchester (laughter) ;
and if he found that on balancing the account it would be
cheaper to be conquered—(renewed laughter)—than to be
laid under contributions for defence, he would give his vote
against going to war for the liberties and independence of
the country rather than bear his share in the expenditure
which it would entail."

(Laughter and cheers.) Now, sir, I think that a coalition
of persons who entertain these agreeable opinions of each
other will form a Ministry of which England may be proud,
I entertain no doubt that the noble lord and the hon. gentle-
man will enter upon their duties each with a solemn sense
of his responsibility and a firm determination never to yield
to anything said by his colleague. The hon. member for
Birmingham has a great horror of war, but the members of
his philanthropic sect have a peculiar way of making war
in their own Cashion. I remember hearing a story of a
Quaker who, being on board a ship which was attacked by
pirates, and finding one of them boarding the vessel, clasped
him round the waist and dropped him overboard, saying
mildly, " Friend, thou hadst no business here." (A laugh.)
And in justice to the hon. member for Birmingham I must
say that I have no doubt that if an enemy touched our
shores, he would be found among our volunteers, and that
if he did not fire a rifle he would wield a bludgeon with no
little execution. The policy of the hon. member is one of
neutrality, but his neutrality means a general disarmament
of the country. (Hear, hear.) He says that he will vote
for the noble viscount because there is no danger from Aus-
tria or Sardinia ; he has n o suspicion of any other country,
and the best way to show that we have no suspicion is to
break up our army, dispose of our ships, and disband our
sailors. (No, no, and cheers.) Is that the policy of the
noble viscount ? Why, there is not a more bellicose Mini-
ster than he. He would not allow the honour of England
to
enemy. be n vTa
hd eedp,
enlioery he
fe rt
hseo i l n desecratedehle
viscount
by
at foot
and that
of
ff
thean
hen. member for Birmingham are wide as the poles
asunder. Why, then, does the hon. member support a the
noble lord ? He says to thgempnresieianyt Government,eh know
ht_lhr oyueguh you;
I my views while thllahte I
ablecannot
to
carry
power, and therefore I am determined that youwl change
places vlenryever well
shall
says,,
,litmhillthme
ankoebltehelonrclob.'ie
ITerdhethheon.
Minister,
hinenor
hearvethadetnle gentleman in effect
member for Tiverton
kill him and go on breaking may squeeze what I can out of
that,him. then, like Warwick, I will
king up Ministry after .
until I have accomplished that which is the darling object
of my life." (Hear.) Now that is a clear and intelligible
policy, and it is manfully avowed. I cannot help congratu-
lating the hon. gentleman, as well as the right hon. member
for Ashton and the right hon. gentleman the member for
Wilts, who signed the requisition convening the meeting
which took place at Willis's Rooms, on the prospect of the
entire unanimity of feeling which is likely to pervade the
Government of which they are to be members, and upon the
circumstance that while they are prepared to agree on
matters of principle, they are perfectly ready to set aside
mere matters of detail ; such, for instance, as the ballot.
(Cheers.) The speech which was made on that question by
the late Attorney-General in the course of last session must
no doubt have been very_ flattering to the feelings of the noble
vicount, in whose Administration he served, while he:must
have ,been equally flattered to find that his own remarks
upon the same occasion were characterised by one of the
staunchest of his adherents (Mr. Berkeley) as "complete
rubbish." (Laughter.) For my own part, I have read with
no little regret certain statements which have been made as
to the constitution of that future Administration which the
noble viscount appears so anxious to construct. I have
seen placarded the names of more than one hon. and right
hon. gentleman, members of the Liberal party, who, it is
said, are to be consigned to political extinction. The noble
viscount, it seems, is about to take, not a cordial, but, it is
to be hoped, a respectful farewell of his old friends, and to
find his new Colleagues below the gangway. (Hear, hear.)
That is not a course which is likely to enlist the sympathies
of an united party, such as that to which I have the honour
to belong. (Cheers.) We have stood by one another in
the conflict, and we certainly should not dream of plascard -
ing the names of those gentlemen in our ranks them " wh had
always been true to their leaders, or saying
new Ministry is to be formed by the sacrifice of the most
A
•
respectable members of the old:" (Cheers.) But, perhaps,
it is somewhat presumptuous in me to advert t o a subject of
this delicate nature. (A laugh.) I shall content myself with
saying further that the question upon which you are called
upon to decide by the noble mover of the amendment under
discussion is whether, as matters stand, the existing Ad-
ministration is entitled to your confidence. With respect
to the answer which you will return to that question I have
come to a different conclusion from that at which the noble
viscount opposite seems to have arrived. I confidently an-

ticipate that your verdict will be pronounced in fof the Government. (Loud cheers.)
- Mr. M. GTBSON moved the adjournment of the debate.
The house adjourned at 20 minutes to 1 o'clock.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTERSALL'S-THURSDAY.

Rot more than half a dozen subscribers were present,
and the only bet laid was 500 to 20 agst Thormanby for the
Derby, 1860.

CHELMSFORD RACES.-THURSDAY.

The Cup Stakes of 50 soya, added to a handicap sweep-
stakes of 10 soya each, 3 ft. Certain penalties. The
second to save his stake. One mile and a half. (11
subs.)
Mr. W. Trower's Conductor, by Humphrey or Mentor,
4 yrs, 7st 41b (Swift) 1
Mr. Mellish's Tame Deer, 6 yrs, 9st 21b (inc. 91b extra)
Colonel Tevis's Ki (Fordham) 2
ng of the Gipsies, 6 yrs, Bst 121 b
(S. Rogers) 3

Harry Bluff and Naughty Boy also ran.
Betting—Even on Tame Deer, 6 to 4 agst Conductor,
7to 2 agst Harry Bluff. Won by a length and a half; bad
third. -
The Monks' Hall Stakes of 5 sovs each, with 25 added, for
2-yr-olds ; colts, Bst 31b; fillies, Bst. The winner to be
sold for 0 sovs. Half a mile. (3 subs.)
Mr. Fleming's f by Connaught Ranger—Pegotty's dam,
Bst 61b ' ... (Norman) 1
Mr. J. Ward's fby Sweetmeat—Mayday, Bst (J. Rogers) 2
Mr. Evans' Confusion, Bst 31b
Betting-5 to 4on the Mayday filly, 7to
.4 agst the Pe-
gotty's dam filly. Won by a head, bad third. Tfie win-
ner was bought in for 155 guineas.

The Queen's Plate of 100 guineas ; 3.yr-olds, 7st 7M ; four,
9st ; five, 9st 61b ; six and aged, 9st 91b. Two miles.
Mr. Rigby's Tournament, by Touchstone, 5 yrs, 9st 61b
(Fordham) 1
Mr. C. Devan's Independence, 3 yrs, 7st 71b (F. Adams) 2
Mr. Barker's Arrow, 5 yrs, 9st 61b (Swift) 3
Captain D. Wright's Harry Bluff, 4 yrs, 9st (S. Rogers) 4
Betting-5 to lon Tournament, who won by half a
length, bad third.

The Mahlon Stakes of 5 sous each, with 20 added, for 2-yr-
olds and upwards. Optional selling weights, &e. Ralf
a mile. (7 subs.)
Captain Bayley's Miss Eleanor, by Alarm, 3 yrs (£4O),
7st 41b (A. Edwards) 1
Mr. Alexanger's Brine, 2 yrs (£4O), sst 71b (Clark) 2
Mr. Angell's Ochiltree, 3 yrs (£6O), Bet (Fordham) 3
The following also ran :—Mayday filly, Hassock, Crino-
line, and Foretop.
Betting-6 to 4 agst Miss Eleanor, 7to 4 agst Ochiltree,
4to 1 agst Brine. Won by a neck, a length between the
second and third. The winner was sold to Captain Hunt
for 95 guineas.

The Town Plate Handicap of 50 sows. Winners extra.
(One mile.)
Mr. J. Holland's Little Nat, 3 yrs, sst 101 b (J. Daley) t 1
Mr. Angell's Ochiltree, 3 yrs, Est (A. Edwards) t 2
Mr. Hodgman's Yorkshire Miss, 3 yrs, Est 61b
(car. Est 81b)
Indulgence and Eardrop also ran.
Betting.—Even on Yorkshire Miss, 4 to 1 agst Ochiltree,
sto 1 agst Little Nat, Bto 1 agst Eardrop. A dead heat
with Little Nat and Ochiltree ; Yorkshire Miss a bad third.

Deciding heat-5 to 4on Little Nat, who won by two
lengths.
Welter Handicap of 10 sovs each. Gentlemen riders. Pro-
fcssionals extra. One mile. (4 subs.) •
Mr. Angell's Target, 4 yrs, lOst 31b.... (Mr W. Bevill 1
Mc Evans's Naughty Boy, 5 yrs, lOst 101 b (Capt. Hunt 2
Mr. B. Land's Hassock, 3 yrs, 9st 91b ... (Mr. Edwards 3
Betting-4 to lon Target, who won by a length and a
half ; two lengths between the second and third.
The Scurry Handicap Plate of £3O. Half-a-mile.
Captain White's July, 4 yrs, 7st 91b (Fordham) 1
Mr. Blanton's Polly Johnson, 4 yrs, 9st 21b (D. Hughes) 2
Mr. Harvey's Hebe, 4 yrs, Sst 21b (Norman) 3
The following also ran :—Leukothea, Miss Eleanor, fby
Launcelot, and Sunningdale.
_

Betting:-5 to 4 agst July, 2to 1 agst Polly Johnson, 5
to 1 agst Leukothea, 6to 1 agst Sunningdale, 7 to I. agst
Hebe. Won by a length, a head between the second and
third, good fourth,
BETTING ON THE COURSE.
ASCOT CUP.
3to 1 agst Leamington (taken)
DERBY 1860.

1000 to 30 agst colt by The Flying Dutchman, out of
Canezou (taken).

BEVERLEY RACES.—THURSDAY.
Scurry Stakes.
_

Jeannie Deans ..
Knayton
Gin

3
Twelve ran.
East Riding Handicap.
Flash-in-the-Pan
Attraction
Meanee colt 3
Seven ran.
Londesborough Produce Stakes.

-
1

Restes .. -
1
Predictor 2
Golden Dream

Twelve ran.
Holderness Hunt Stakes.