The Sun.
London, England, 1857-12-12 00:00:00

In answer to a queiiban from General CODRINGTON,

Sir B. HALL sail that ircat raisappre on4ion
prevailed with rt,ferace@ the outlet of the draioa;e
What ha had alwaya co:Act:led for, and did now, was
tha': the cntfalls should he at the p,int3 indicated in
Captain B:rstlll'a report.
NEW WRIT.
A new writ was ordered Lr Whitohaven, in the room
of Mr. HiLiyArd, deceased.

ISTHMUS OF SUEZ,
Mr. GRIFFITHS gave notice that on an early day
after the recess he should call the attention of the
Government to the application of the French Govern-
ment to the Turkish Government for permission to con•
struct the Suez Canal.
BARON RO LTSC
Mr. T. DUNCO ABE gave notice that immediately
after the recess he should call the attention of the house
to the fact, that daring the two preceding sessions of
Parliament three of the members for the City of London
only had taken their seats, he should move a resolution
that Baron Rothschild be permitted to take the oaths
as appointed by law most binding on his conscience,
and in accordance with the faith he professed. (Cheers.)

NEW SOUTH WALES.
In answer to a question from Lord A CHURCHILL,
Mr. LABOUCUERE said it was intended to sepa-
rate Moreton Bay iu the colony of Now South Wales,
from that presidency, the boundary to be near the river
St. Lawrence. With regard to tho form of legislation
it would be on the model of New South Wales but on
what principle, whether strictly what was called execu-
tive or not he could not then give an answer.
THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE AND

SURGERY.
Mr. KINNAIRD asked the Vice President of the
Council of Education whether it was the intention of her
Majeety'e Government to introduce any measure after
the Christmas recess, with the view of amending the
laws relating to the practice of medicine and surgery ia
the United Kingdom ?
Mr. COOPER said it was the intention of the
Government to
introduce such a measure.
TRANSFER OF LAND (IRELAND )
Mr. VANCI?. asked the Attorney-General for Ire-
land if the Government intended, during the present
session, to bring in a bill to facilitate and simplify
the transfer of land in Ireland?
Mr. FITZGERALD Faid such a measure was under
the consideration of the G.vernneent.
THE BANKRUPTCY LAW.
Mr. lIEA DLAM asked the Attorney-General whe-
ther it was the intention of the Government to introduce
any amendment of the law of bankruptcy in the present
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the bankruptcy
requiredleiet:i°uof Parlieiga (Hear, bear.) The
inisleantit:e late' bronco.
subject was under consideration, but he could not state
when a bill would be introduced upon the subject.
TRANSPORTING INDIAN MUTINEERS.
Mr. ARTHUR MILLS asked the President of the
Board of Control whether the attention of Her Majesty's
Government had been called to the question of trans-,
porting a certain number of the mutineers in India to
such of the West Indian or other colonies as may signify
their willingness to receive such transported offenders,
and their families, and to contribute to the cost of their
removal ; also, whether, in the event of any measures
for the transportation of such offenders being adopted,
the Government of India were empowered to carry out
such measures under the Aces of the Governor-General
in Council of May and June last, for the punishment of
offences against the State, and military offences ?
Mr. V. SUIT a said it was a question of great iin-
portance and delicacy. The subject had occupied the

attention of the Government. It would be very
desirable to have a place to transport those
whose lives would be spared ; but the question was,
.where to send them. Of course they could only be sent
to such colonies as were willing to receive thorn. He
behaved no punishment would be dreaded more by the
high-casts natives especially as transportation.
SMITHFIELD MARKET.
Mr. HANBURY asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, whether the consent of the Government was likely
to be given to any proposition of the Corporation of
tho City of L indon to build over the site of Sfeitlifiel 1
Market, whether for a Dead Market or any other pur-
pose ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
believed it was the intention of the City of London to
introduce in the ordinary manner a private bill for
establishing a dead meat market in some part not far
from Smithfield. The question with retard to the
ground claimed by the Croon would be I,ft to the
decision of the select committee on that bid.
PRIZE MONEY.
Mr. LAURIE asked the Under S.:cretary for War,
whether any prize money wee to bo distributed to the
Army who were engaged in the Crimea ? and, whether
the.Queen'a troops now in India, who teok possession of
treasure, would have prize money allotted to them
Sir J. RAMSDEN said the former was too small to
distribute amongst the army, not counting more than
2s. Gd. to each officer, and GI to each soldier. None
would therefore take place,
Mr. V. SMITH said with reference to India that prize
money would only be alio wed where the treasure was
taken from the natives. (Hear, hear.)
MINISTER OF JUSTICE
Mr. WARREN asked whether any and what pro-
gress had been made in the arrangements for establish-
ing a Department of Justice, in conformity with the
pledge given by the Government in the last session ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the matter Lad
been under ooneideration. He should be able to give a
more satisfactory answer after the recess.
THE REBELLION IN INDIA.
Mr. BLACKBURN asked if the Indian government
had resolved to admit the principle that compensation
was to be made for property destroyed by the rebellion
in India.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said the question had not yet
been decided.
PETITION PROM CALCUTTA.
Mr. WISE asked why the memorial from the
inhabitants of Calcutta, complaining of the Governor
General, had not been presented to the House of
clornmone, and by whose authority it had been with-
' held,

Lord PALMERSTON said he hal returned it,
because it was contrary to the invariable rule to re•
ceive such documents, except through the Governor-
General, who, at the same time, forwarded his answer
to the complaint, bf which Government were put
into possession of the facts on both sides.
BISHOPS' RETIRING PENSIONS.
Mr. GRIFFITHS asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury, whether it was his intention to bring in a bill this
session to provide retiring pensions for bishops resigning
their sees, according to his pledge of lest session ?
Lord PA.LMERSTON said the subjeci; was still under
the consideration of the government. He was unable
to make any pledge on the subject. (Hear, hear.)
RIGHT TO PRACTICE IN THE ADMIRALTY
COURT.
Mr. HADFIELD asked the Attorney-General
whether he intended to bring in a bill to abolish the
right to practise in the Court of Admiralty, now enjoyed
by proctors (who were empowered under the Probate
Bill to become attorneys and solicitors), and to enable
the legal profession generally to practise in that court, as
decided by a committee of the whole house in the last
session, during the discussion of said Probate Bill ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the subject was
under consideration. Probably a measure to that effect I
would be brought in after the recess, but ice was unable
to say when.
REFORM OF THE CORPORATION OF
LONDON.
In answer to a question from Sir D. L. EVANS,
Sir G. GREY said he intended to bring in a bill for
the reformation of the Corporation of London imme-
diately after the races'. (Choere,)
THE KING OF DELHI.
Mr. HORSMAN inquired upon whose authority the
life of the Kiree of Delhi was saved ? (Hoar, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH oaid that if it was proved on the trial
of the King of Delhi he was not implicated in the rebel-
lion, his life would be spared. He would then be sent to
Allahabad, and afterwards cut of the country. Captain
Hodson found that he could not capture him without
making the promise ho had, and under that promise it
was impossible for the Government to do otherwise than
abide by it. (Haar, hear.)
EDUCATION.
Sir J. PAKINGTON gave notice that on an early
day after the recess he intended to move a committee
for inquiry into the present state of education in Eng-
land. (Hear, hear.)
TELEGRAM FROM INDIA.
Mr. S. WARREN asked it any additional telegram
had been received from India, and to what purport ?
Mr. Y. smint-Oitly that published in all the
papers. .

betonel KNOX asked which was correct. Two
had been published, one stating that when Gen. Campbell
crossed the Ganges on the 10th, it was with 1,500 men,
and the other wile the 9th, alad with 13,000 men. (blear,
hear.) lie wished to know which was correct.
Mr. SMITH said he was only answerable for the in-
formation received by the Government. MiJtakes, how-
ever, might arise in figures in transmissiln.
PURCHASE IN THE ARMY.
Sir DE LACY EVANS gave notice that, early after
the recess, be should call the ettention of the house to
purchase in the army. (Hear, hear.)
SUPPLY—DR. LIVINGSTONE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in
moving a postponement of the Committee of Supply said
that it was proposed by the government to
devote a sum of money to Dr. Livingstone to
prosecute his discoveries in Africa and especially
the Zembesee river, believing it might lead to
important commercial consideration, as it was a district
likely to produce cotton. (Hear.) As it was not in-
tended to take votes in supply before the recess,
he asked permission of Parliament to allow
Government to advance 5001. out of the Civil Contin-
geuciee, and take a discussion on it when it came on in
proper order. The reason for so doing was that if Dr.
Livingstone did not start in January, the expedition
would be delayed another year.—Agreod to.
THE ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Lord PALMERSTON said that as the course
Government wished to pursue was not to keep
the House sittieg after to-morrow, R was not
his intention to move the adjournment of the house
tiil Monday, if the debate on the motion for appointive
the Bank committee was agreed to to night. (Rear)
The house would then meet to-morrow for the royel
assent t ) the Inderunity
holidays till Thursday, 4th February.
B and adjourn for t he
GENERAL HAVELOCK'S PENSION.
Lord P.A L MERSTON said that the Government, in
accordance with the wish of the house, would grant the
pension to General Ilavelocl: fur two lives. :Poet would
entail on the house the necessity of pettseag another
resolution on which to found another bib, and that would
be d eferred till after the recese. (Hear, hear.)
SENDING TROOPS THROUGH EGYPT.
Mr. SEVIYIOUR FITZGERALD was unwilling to
allow the house to adjourn for the holidays without mak-
ing a few observations, on a subject closely linked with
the consideration of the claims of General Havelock.
Distinguished as had been the services of that gallant
officer they would have been still more efficient, had he
received sufficient support from Government, and at an
earlier period. (blear.) We sheuld not have to endure
the anxiety so universally felt for the fate of General
Havelock and his garrison at Lucknuw. Under the
most favourable circumstances LuCknow could not be
relieved before the 16th cr 17th, and by that time, as
appeared by the last account's, they were 27 days eating
their carriage bullocks—(hear, hear)—and that time they
were exposed to all the dangers of famine. He considered
that the statement made by the President of the Board
of Control, in answer to the question of the right hon.
member fur Dreitwich, by no means satLfactory. The
bon, member proceeded to contend that troops ought to
have been sent by Suez in detachments of 400 or 5C.0 ii
not in larger bodies ; and that the reasons all-ged for
preferring sailing veesels to screw ettamers were fear,
cious. He was sure there was a general feeling out of
doors that Government had been culpably deficient in
energy and promptitude. (Hear, from the Opposition.)
The SPEAKER, as a matter of order, reminded the
hon. member that the question before the house was the
adjournment of the committee of supply, and not that of
the pension of General Havelock. He suggested that
it would be more convenieet if the house would first
allow the order to be postponed, and then the question
raised by the hon. mei-Aber might be discussed on the
following motion, which related to Sir 11. Havelock's
pension, which would be in order.
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it would be better
to allow the discussiou—it, indeed, any were necessary
after the explanations of his right hon. friend (Mr. V.
Smith)—to proceed on the question of the adjournment
of the committee of supply rather than on that of the
pension of Sir H. Havelock, even if it were somewhat
less regular,
Mr. V. SMI rn said—Sir, if there ever was a rule so
established in practice as to become almost equal to one
of the forms of the house, it is that when the house is
about to give to merit its due reward, there should be a
total absence of any kind of party or personal attack. I
was therefore astonished at the hon, member saying that
he had picked cut that opportunity for making an attack
upon Ler Majesty's Ministers, a course, however, to
which I cannot object, because of the very fact that we
were not discussing the question of Sir 11. Havmock's
pension, but that of supply. I wish, however, that the
hon. member had begun as he ended, by asking whether
Government would greet that committee, for it so hap•
pens that her Mejesty's Government do intend to grant
that committee, and the whole question veil be brought
before them. (Hear, hear.) But ho wants no such com-
mittee. He has made up his mind that the Government
wore in the wrong, and that it Sir U. Havelock is( xposed
to danger, which I hope is no longer the case, that m e
are entirely to blame for it. (Rear, and a laugh.) Th
right hon. gentleman proceeded to say that the state-
ment of his right hon. friend was to his mind perfectly
satisfactory, The hon. gentleman had avoided the con-
sideration of the question whether England as mistress
of the seas ought to go cap in band, to any other Power
and beg for aid to put down insurrection in her own do
minions. (Hear.) He (Mr. V. Smith) had never said
there were difficulties in the way of sending troops to
Suez, for though there were so, yet ministries were mad,
to overcome difileulties, and if a Ministry could not do
that it had better not be a Minietey. (Applause.) Bit
it was also made to look to danger, and there would be '

• great danger by sending the troops by Egypt. (Hear.)
He did not know whether the hon. gentleman had ever
crossed the desert, but he knew several gentlemen who
had, and they all agreed that it was a great trial of
human strength. It was most important that the troops
should arrive sound and well at their destination ; and,
in fact, they had arrived every one in as sound health
as they had left England. (gear.) He considered
that any minister who should send troops by that route
without the certainty that vessels should be ready to
transport them from Sou to their destination would be
worthy of i.cupeachment. The hon. gentleman then
enterer! Into a calculation of time with a view to show
that no advantage would have keen gained by Vee adop-
tion of the route to Suez, and that even if they had gained
a few days that would have been of no sort of use for the
relief of Lucknow. The public were too apt to believe
that Government had been wanting in energy, and
naturally SO in the excitement and anxiety produced by
the news from India, for every one was anxious that aid
shenhi be sent as speedily as possible, without exactly
know iog how that Wat to be done. (hear.) He then
referred to what was slid the other night about the screw
ships taken up by the East India Company. Though he
might say that he was not respolsible for that, he would
say, to show that he did not want to shirk responsibility,
that he fully approved what they had done, an" that the
Government had laid the reins on the neck and put spurs
in the sides of the Court of Directors, -.vho had made the
utmost exertions. He thought that when the committee
had investigated the matter, [tr.:, the facts became better
known and understood, the r:,,overnment, instead of being
blamed, would receive credit for the most strenuous
exertions. (Hear.l.

•
Sir J. PAKT-.146T0N admitted that there was some
inconvenier.
de in the raising of the question at this
point; especially without notice—(bear)--but every
the country was beating with anxiety on this
matter, and as Parliament was about to adjourn he
thought the hon. member right to avail himself of au op-
portunity perfectly legitimate in a parliamentary sense.
(Hear.) He was astonished that Government should
assent to the motion, which he considered to be one of
censure upon them—(bear)—and the assent to which
appeared to him to be confessing that they were in the
wrong. He controverted the arguments urged in defence
of the course which bad been adopted.
Col. SYKES defended the course taken by the Court
of Directors, and said that, so far from requiring the
spur to be applied to the flanks, they had galloped ahead
of the Government.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that though it would per-
haps have been impossible to send a large quantity of
troops by the overland route, yet, if they had sent 500 or
600 at a time, the moral effect would have been very great
when it should become known in India that troops were
striving in that manner in addition to those from all other
directions. At that time of the year the Winds were light
from this to the line, and the sailing vessels might have
been to that part, but for the rest of the distance the winds
were favourable. He inquired what provision had been
made for the protection of the troops in the hot season re-
ferring to the efforts of Lord Dalhousie to improve the
barrack accommodation. It would be impossible for them
to live under canvas in that season at Bengal. The result
of all this was that when the prices increased there would
not be sufficient accommodation for the men who would be
cone nitrated in Bengal. He thought it was very necessary
that the attention of the Government should ' be directed
to that point. (Hear, hear).
Mr. P. O'BRIEN said ho wished to ask a question which
he hail on the paper, namely, to ask the Under-Secretary
for War, whether the Government intend to make up our
Home Cavalry establishment to the number in existence
before the mithdrawal of regiments to India ; and if so,
whether they will again constitute the sth Regiment of
Royal Irish Dragoons ?

Lord J. MA.NNERS protested against such questions
being introduced, because they were entirely irrelevant to
the question under consideration.
The SPEAKER said that as the house had decided that
The question should be put whether supply was to be post-
poned—the hon. member was quite in order.
Mr. O'BRIEN then again put tho question of which he
had given notice.

Sir J. RAMSDEN rose to reply, but
The SPEAKER called upon

Mr. SCOTT, who rose at the same time. Tho hon.
member said that ho likewise had a question on the paper,
but he did not intend to press it, although he believed that
there could be no question 'that more interested the people
just now than the rewards which were to be given to our
gallant seldiors in India for the services they had rendered.
The house had been told that evening by the right hon.
gentleman the President of the Board of Control that it
was the duty of a Government to foresee danger, and then
to guard ags.instiit- It was because he thought the Go-
ernment had not foreseen the clanger, and had not pro-
perly guardee against it that he objected to the course the.,
had adopted. (Hoar.) It had been said on a recant
festive occasion that the country ought to :thank its stars
that it had a Government that was equal to the emergency.
That occasion was a dinner at the Mansion-house, and he
had no doubt whatever that her Majesty's Government
was equal to such an emergency. (Laughter.) He might
remind the house that 200 days had elapsed since the news
of the mutiny reached this country, and not one single
band of men had been sent out that had taken part in the
recent troubles. It would have been well, ho thought, if
such a Governor for India had been sent out as Lord
Elgin ; but instead of that noble lord, India was to be
governed by a noble viscount whom nobody considered
equal to the occasion. When it had been urged upon the
Government that they should have sent out troops by the
Red Sea, it had boon said that thereiwould have boo
danger in that course, but the Government never seemed
to have apprehended the dangers likely to arise from the
disaffection of the sepoys, or what might take place at
Lucknow. At tho present time, when every heart iu Eng-
land was throbbing reference to what was taking place
before Lucknow, there was an apparent cold, o ,s on the pal t
of the Government, and even the President of the Board of
Control hardly ventured to say what was to be done if
Lucknow were to fall. (Hear.) There were many cir-
cumstances connected with this question which ought to
be well considered, and he hardly understood why Gen.
Havelock had not been raised to the peerage when the more
historian had been preferred to that high honour.
Sir J. RAMSDEN said he wished to give an answer to
the question which had been put to him by Mr. O'Brien.
Arrangements hal,been made to give the bast acsommoda-
don for the cavalry in India, and to accomplish that ob-
ject the existing regiments would bo strengthened, but no.
new regiments would bercreated.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that as the Government
had consented to the committee of inquiry ho had pro-
posed, he would not say anything except to ask whether
the noble lord would allow the committee to be appointed
to-morrow ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before the question was
put he wished to say a word or two, because it might
affect the proceedings of the'Government. The President
of the Board of Control had made a most important an-
nouncement, namely, that the committee on this most im-
portant question would be acceded to by the Government.
The right hon. hart. the member for Droitwich (Sir J.
Pakington) had expressed some surprise that the Govern-
ment should have acceded to such an inquiry. Now ho
thought that on a question which had been so much dis-
cussed, upon which there had been so many and such
varied statements of facts that the Government had ex2r-
cised a very constitutional course in acceding to inquiry ;
but, at the same time, whether it weuld n)t be better and
more conformable to ancient practice for the whole house
to resolve itself into committee for inquiry upon the sub-
ject. At the proper time he should submit that amendment.
The committee of supply was then ordered to be ad-
journed until Friday, Feb. 5.
SIR HENRY HAVELOCK'S ANNUITY BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
moved that the committee on this Bill should be adjourned
to Thursday, February the 4th,
Lord PALMERSTON, who, having spoken on the pr•
vious question,. could not until it was disposed of reply to
the question of Sir De Lacy Evans, said—l understood that
my hon. and gallant friend had given notice of his motion
for Thursday next, and I therefore treated it as ens which
could not be disposed of. before the adjournment. As far
as the Government is concerned, I should have no objec-
tion to its coming on to-morrow.
Sir DE LAMP EVANS—I have altered the terms of my
notice so as I believe to enable mo to move the resolution
to-morrow.

The motion was then agreed to.
THE AUSTRALIAN POSTAL SERVICE.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND, who had given notice of his
intention to move for a return of all the vessels employed
by the European and Australian Company, said that the
delay which had arisen in the conveyance of the mails by
this company entailed such serious injury upon the com-
mercial interests of the country that he was sure he need
only call the attention of the Government to the subject in
order to get the screw put on and the grievance removed.
With the exception of the chartered, ship the Sidmouth
none of the vessels employed by the company bad performed
their voyages in the stipulated time, and the company had
incurred heavy penalties, which he was glad to hear that
the Government had enforced. It was now understood
that this company was really defunct, and it was pretty
evident that the persons now concerned in the same were
the West India Mail Company. The country had hoard
with dismay that this company would not be able to dis-
charge their duties with efficiency until the month of May,
and meanwhile persons leavin; for Australia to-morrow
(this day) would kayo to zemaiu in Egypt a month because
there would ho no vessel ready to take them on. As he
understood that no returns could be made in addition to
those alrea ly supplied, he should not proceed with the
motion of which he bad given notice; but he implored the
Government to expedite this company in the performance
of its contract. They undertook to launch and purchase
various vessels.' As yet they had launched none, nor had
they chartered any whieh were adapted to the work which
they had to perform. There was one ship, the Mediterra-
nean, the tiled trip of which was quite satisfactory ; but
she, instead of being sent to the colonial station was char-
tered for the conveyance of troops: The hon. member
concluded by withdrawing his motion for the returns. '
Sir C. WOOD said the Admiralty would take care as far
as possible to enforce upon the contractors the perform-
ance of their duty.

THE LAST INDIAN NEWS.
Sir-C. WOOD said the Government had that moment
received an additional telegram, which, if the house would
permit him, ho would read to them. There was complete
silence while the right hou. gentleman read a telegram,
dated " Alexandria, Dec. 5," which will be found in our
Indian news, and upon its conclusion the satisfaction of
the hon. members was evinced by cheers.

THE CURRENCY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose
and said—The house must, I think, consider itself indebted
to the right hon. gentleman opposite (Hr. Disraeli) for sug-
' Besting an arrangement by which the discussion ou the
Indemnity Bill hasbeon disengaged from the question which
is now about to occupy its attention. Undoubtedly, it has
been for the convenience of the house that that subject
should have been considered without reference to this
further question ; and I may, perhaps, be permitted, now
that the Indemnity Bill has been read a third time, and
been sent to the other House of Parliament, to express my
sense of the fair and candid treatment which that question
has received on both sides of the house. (Hear.) Gentle
men in all parts of thobouse have,as it seems to me, shown
a disposition to avoid all captious criticism, to treat the
question on its merits, and to make due allowance for the
difficult position of the Government, called upon to deal
with a matter which necessarily involved an immediate
decision. (Hear.) Nothing can more encourage respon-
sible Ministers in the proper performance of their duties
than a consciousness that thoir conduct will be viewed by
equitaMo and impartial judges. (Hear.) having adverted
to the Indemnity Bill, I may perhaps be allowed to call the

attention of the house to the fact that, although I did not
venture to give any positive assurance that the commer-
cial crisis had reached its terminetion, nevertheless I
expressed confidence that the Bank of England was
steadily recovering its position. In support of that state;
ment I will mention what I am informed was the state of
the Bank yesterday evening On the 11th of November the
bullion in the Bank was 6,666,000/. On the 12th, the day
the letter was issued, it was 6,524,000/. Last night I
understand the amount of bullion was 8,200,0001. (Cheers.)
The figures are not precisely accurate, because some returns
from country branches had not been received, but for all.
practical purposes it may be taken to be correct, and that
the amount of bullion in the Bank last night was 8,200,000/e
(Hear, hear.) On the 11th of November the reserve of the
Bank, including both notes and coin, was 1;462,0001. On
the 12th of November it was 581,000/. Last night it was
4,650,030/. (Hear.) Therefore, if we deduct 2,00,060/. of
over-issues, there still remains in reserve 2,650,0001., which
is a sum by which it is possible to work the banking de-
partment. The motion which I am now about to makeisfor
the re-appointment of the committee of last session, and
I will again call the attention of the House to the fact
that the committee, after concluding the examination of
evidence last session, agreed unanimously to recommend
its re-appointment in the present session. These were the
words of the resolution :—" Your committee have agreed
to report to the House the evidence which they he"
received, and, as their investigation of the subject referred
to them is still incomplete, they beg leave to recommend
that a select committee be appointed to resume the inqtar.Y
in the ensuing session of Parliament." My right hon.
friend (Mr. Gladstone) and the right hon. gentleman
opposite (Mr. Disraeli) were both members of that com-
mittee, and they did not object at the time to that resolu-
tion. The question, then, to be considered to-night is
whether circumstances have since arisen which render it
inexpedient for the House to adopt the recommenda-
tion of the committee. My right honourable friend
(Mr. Gladstone) on a previous occasion spoke with
some want of appreciation of the evidence taken by
the committee of last session, and conceived a doubt.
whether any advantage would accrue from a reappointment
of the committee to inquire into the question of the cur-
rency. Having been a member of that committee last ses-
sion, I must be permitted briefly to vindicate its proceed-
ings. I cannot see that the evidence taken is in any degree
inferior to the evidence taken by previous committees on
former occasions. Gentlemen of very gent eminence, both
from their position and from their experience and acquire-
ments, were examined. We examined my hon. friend the
member for Southampton (Mr. Weguelin), formerly gover-
nor, now director of the Bank. We examined the present
governor and deputy governor. We examined Mr. Hub-
bard, a very able and intelligent witness, also a Bank
director. We examined Mr. Norman, whose character,
lam sure, I need not eulogise. (Hear, hear.) We ex-
amined Lord Overdone, whose authority stands so high be-
fore all committees on this subject; and we also received
the evidence of Mr. Newmarch, a writer of great ability,
who is associated with Mr. Tooke in the completion of his
work on prices, and who represents the school of orlini°nt°
which Mr. Tooke belongs. We also examined Mr. John
Mill, whose merits, ability, and conduct need no eulogiura
from me. I think that list of witnesses exonerates theeem-
mittee from the charge of having laid worthless evidence
on the table of the house. I cannot see that the practice
of putting long questions, which was remarked on by mY
right hon. friend, has interfered much with the value o
the evidence taken by the committee. It very often hap-
pens in committee that gentlemen, wishing to suggest -nis
Its
to a witness, are obliged to put long questions-
It is not like examinations in a court of justice,
object is to extract matters of facts; bat in order to cert,'t
on an argument between the witness and the committee,
is necessary to put questions sometimes of a rather it eon
where the
venient length, I amnot sure, however, that the emn-
mittae of last session can be justly charged with an absil`,
of that practice. I must maintain, therefore, with grey
deference to m right honourable friend's haracter ,
that committee,y that it did materially promote the unde.Z
standing of that subject which was referred to its invest'',
gation, and that those gentlemen who wish to understand
the present position of the currency question
reference to the Act of 1814 will derive as I confess Imre'
derived, great instruction from the opinions and the
illation of the witreesses examined before it. (Hear.) I no t
come to the amendment which is to be moved by the sigh
hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire. In order
to see what would bo the effect of that amendment, I rapes
call the attention of the'house to the course which the corp;
mittee actually pursued: What the committee did in the
last sessisn was to examine into the general operation t.).1.
the Act of 184-1 with reference to the Bank of England.
confined itself to the question of the issues of the Bank o',*
England alone, and the law as affecting the limitation e°
s
those issues. That pert of the inquiry appears to me
have been completed by the committee. What I under.:
stand the committee to have intended to do, if reappointed'
was to inquire into the country issues in England, and also
into the banking system of Scotland and Ireland, because
tho Acts referred to that committee were not only the Aq
pf 1844 but also the Act of 1845 with respect to Scotland
end Ireland. Therefore, if the commercial crisis had not
occurred the committee, I apprehend, when reappointed,
would have treated tbe question of the Bank of England as
disposed of, and would have taken evidence upon the English
county issues, and also upon the Scotch and Irish issues,
and then they might have agreed to a report. But how
does the amendment of the right hon. gentleman affect
this state of affairs ? He proposes, as an amendment to
my motion,—which would of course get rid of it alto-
gether—to resolve " that, in the opinion of this Home,
no further inquiry is necessary into the operation of the
Act of 1544." If the commercial crisis had not occurred
I should have been prepared to assent to that resolu-
tion, for I do not think that any further inquiry is neces-
sary into the operation of the Act of 1841 so far as the
Bank of England is coucernod, and if he would have in-
serted the words " with the exception of the country
issues," I should not have objected to his resolution. But
how does the matter stand ? The right hon. gentleman says
there is to be no further inquiry, but is the committee to
be precluded from reporting upon the operation of the Act
of 18.14 ? It has collected very valuable evidence in refer-
ence to the Act of 1814, and it has not hitherto even con-
sidered any resolution founded upon it. As I understand
it, the effect of this resolution would be to preclude the
committee from coming to any resolution upon the evi-
dence taken last session with respect to the Bank of Eng'
land, and it would also preclude them from taking evi-
dence with respect to English country banks of issue,
and the Scotch and Irish banks. Upon the latter
point the right hon. gentleman is altogether silent.
Under these circumstances, 1 confess it appears to iv.°
that the amendment altogether fails to meet the ell'
gencies of the case. It renders the labours of the co.to'
mittee of last session comparatively useless, it stops the !o:
quiry at present incomplete, and it prevents any re,oln,
tion being founded on the evidence already taken. (freer)
!
But, sir, we do not stand now as we expected to stand n
the end of last session. (Hear.) Since that resolutionA
the committee was agreed to we have had a commercial
crisis, and it is, I think, a fair object for the considerate!
• of this committee how far the general operation of thef Actac
of 1811 has received any light from the events o!
month. (Hear.) At all events, Parliament might wish_
institute an inquiry into the causes of the combernteiraccraelddhies_
tree:, and to see whether any connection n_
is ee
ne nt
thathe
account operation
th
aotf
I thosehave causesprepe proposed
ddt
et hemea
the recent commercial distress, au t to investigate
0,
an instruction to the committee to inquire into the Uwsesfaorf
move that et
hf ti 1844. t be
it has bean affected by the laws for regulating the issuel
bank-dotes payable on demand. In that way the committee,
with
if it pursued the inquiry of last session in accordance.,
all!
the views of the committee of last session, would.
stain from any general inquiry into the Bank of Engtanue.
It would take any additional evidence requisite iu
-queue() of the commercial crisis, and inquire into the eta
jest of the English country banks of issue, and the ope
tion of the Scotch and Irish Acti. In that way a complete
and satisfactory inquiry would be obtained. But, sir, iis
by no means true that no light has been cast on the opera-
tion
t
of this act in the course of years, and that we are able
with the evidence taken by previous committees,o a
form
fact well
e
known _
attentionpresent eenf tt shares thee' Il
house
s.oe
of banking.
af
completewoul cionly
to
d g
directmn t
then our
all persons who are at
expansionatl
acquainted
whichisarte thedwith thiss
class of subjects—viz., the great 6
tem of holding money on call has received within the last
few years. It is, undoubtedly, to a great extent, to the
busa of that system—which I believe is in the main a
awholesome and beneficial s system, tending to collect and
torn to good account the scattered resources of the country,
but, nevertheless, eminently liable to alms°, and contain-
ing within it elements of danger—that many of the evils of
the recent crisis may be attributed. (Hear.) It is the spa
tone of giving interest upon bankers' deposits—formerly
almost unknown in this country, but for many years Pro'
tised to a great extent in Scotland,—which has made a
great practical change in the working of our banking laws-
Every one must see that there is a great difference between
deposits placed with a banker for the sake of safe custody
and the convenience of drawinge—where the depositor
keeps only the smallest sum which is sufficient for ordinary
payments, and where he draws it out in small sums, as was
formerly the case in England,—and the deposits which are
almost in the nature of investments, where the deposito.r
receives a high rate of interest, where hp seeks to augment
instead of to diminish them, • and where (particularly if he
is a banker) he has occasion to draw out large sums at the
shot test possible notice. The difference between the two
is manifestly great, and it is not dependent on the lass',
but it has a great effect on our banking system.
With reference to this subject I will take the liberty
of directing the attention of the house to a passage
in a letter from Mr. Cotton, addressed to me in •
October, 18 6--more than a year ago—which is printed i.
the appendix to the report of the Bank Committee, a'
An
which, I think, shows some foresight as to the operati°°'
of this system. Mr. Cotton gays
" The system of banking in Scotland which has lately been
introduced into London—vizalo allow interest on &post;
at call, or on short notices, has given, and will give, rtiseof
serious inconvenience, as the depositors, in the eve not
monetary crisis, will demand payment when they wu
sell their own securities."the
This I think shows a foresight and a cons*eiougnffeegYone this
part of Mr. Cotton of what was likely to be d to the
system. The question which was in fact referred
extent
committee of last session, and which was to a grer ch Ley
exhausted by them in their inquiries, was that to ni A
right hon. friend the member for the University of
obey of
adverted the other night when be spoke of the P „ that
developing the Act of 1844. There can be no douoLd
Sir Robert Peel, when be introduced this Act,;
_irn
+llevi.
came
sanguine expectation that before the time
for .--°
ing it the provisions which he had embodied in tool
extinction of the country bank issues would have_vouid
effect, and that over the whole of England therVlhere are
only be Bank of England notes in circulation. to
some words in a clause of the Act which seem torseiso
point clearly to the expectation that before the yip uses of
it was not impossible that all the country bank les' abols
England should cease. Thee are the words of the
section of the Act : able t°
.‘ And be it enacted that all the compositions PaY eereto
the several bankers mentioned in the schedule
marked (C), and such other bankers as shall agree wi:thteig;
said governor and company to dim:manna the issue °l,eter-
own bank-notes as aforesaid, shell, if not previonslY cased,
mined by the act of ruch bankers as hereinbefore prc"..sus
souse and determine on the Ist of August, 1856, or on of
earlier day on which Parliament may prohibit the 1"
bank-notes." ohibi‘ •
The words of the Act clearly- sheer that the entire P_lri the
tiers of bank-notes by private banks in England !ie:: peel
contemplation of its author. The plan which Sir 1"
th9A, °"
rnue, Le considered to have contemplated eras aonenler
single b ,nk of issue for England—that wits unpleast_l/40e to
within his immediate conternlatio a. Hew far !,.0
an
certain
tentireain but
o extinctionn)s
yo
consider
0 then Eid Scotcherit as
and others wko were the promoters naoonftdthillanrtfisarhcobizasloosi,(4t-bil;:t1h0::
prob ebb event to the existence of a single bank ..10_13!w"hie
the United Kingdom, That was ono of the quostl

Was investigated by the committee of last session, and I
Will shortly state to the house some of the opinions given
by very competent witnesses upon it. My bore friend, the
Member for Southampton, who was lately G ,vernor of the
Bank, disapproved of the compulsory extinction of the
country issues, and thought that there was no great prac-
tical evil in those evils except that they were not made on
securities, Mr. Newmarch was of opinion that the country
'genes ought not to be discontinued. Mr. Hubbard thought
that the right of issue of the English country banks should
be bought up, --that is to say, that they should be extin-
guished by law, but that the bankers should be compen-
sated for the loss of their right of issue. Mr. Norman, a
'witness of great authority, ale() disapproved of interference
with the private issues, and I will take tho liberty, as his
°Pinion is given very clearly, of reading it to the house.
xe is asked—
" What is your own view at present ; leaving the advan-
tage of experience, and having seen what has actual y taken
Place since 1844 do you think it desirable to makeauy change
With regard tothe issues of the country banks in England, or
of the Irish and Scotch banks I—l think, speaking generally,
they have worked far more satisfactorily since 1844 than they
ever had done in any previous period during my recollection,
or in any previous periodthat I have heardof; and, consider-
ing' the habits and feelings of the country, and the interests
involved I doubt whether it would be expedient to attempt
by any direct legislative action to interfere further with pri-
vate issues. I mast add, however, this—that. although the
action of private issues has been improved, still there have
been failures among private issues, even recenty ; therefore,
they are not altogether in a perfectly satisfactory state.
"Do you attribute that improvement to the limit which
leas been imposed by law on their issues I —I do mainly."
Therefore, the effect of Mr. Norman's opinion is that it is
sot desirable to interfere with the private issues. Lord
Overstone also gave his opinion on this question. He ap-
Proved the gradual absorption of the country issues, but
lkot by means of any strong measures for their suppression
or for the suppression of the Scotch and Irish issues. With
regard to the question of requiring security for the corm-
issue' he entertained a doubt as to the expediency of
LnY such provision. Those are the opinions of some of the
most competent witnesses on the question of the English
country issues and of the Irish and Scotch issues, and they
do not point to the expediency at present of doing what
1/19 sight hone friend called "developing the policy of the
set of 1844," by converting the Batik of England into the
Ida bank of issue for the United Kingdom. There is ano-
ther point which has been raised in connection with this
,Pazt, of the subject, viz., that if that central' bank be not
the Bank of England it should be a Government bank, that
'um Government should assume to itself the right of issuing
PoPer over the whole of the United Kingdom, and should
Prohibit the issues of paper either by the Bank of England
or the Bank of Ireland, or any other chartered or private
°attic. It is, I think, undoubted that when the act of 1844
Was, under consideration some plan of that sort was in con-
templation, although Sir R. Peel did not think it desirable
at that time to attempt its intrpduction. A letter from
Mr, Goulburn to the Governor and Deputy-Governor of
the -3unk of England, dated April 26, 1814, contains this
Pass; g e
It. appears highly desirable that any new arrangement
should be founded on the basis of an entire separation of the
business of the issue of notes from that. of banking. This
Teas, are might be effected by the establishment of a public
thear tment for the issue of notes, independent altogether of
B
that clearly contemplates some public establishment either
"inlet a parliamentary organisation, or being directly sub-
Ject to the Crown—a public department unconnected with
the Ba nk. He goes on to say :
, " Bu .t her Majesty's Government are willing in the first in-
trance Ito consider whether this can be effected by a division
of the Ilank into two distinct and separate departments, to
Conduct exclusively, one the business of issue, the other that
ut banking."
This shows that the notion of a Government Bank of Issue
for the entire kingdom was considered when the Act of
1844 wars prepared, and therefore we may suppose that it
'woo part of the development of that act to place the cur-
t!incy of the country on that footing. But the first ques-
%lore which naturally arises on that proposition is, " By
nat means are the Government to supply the country with
..40 paper currency—is it merely-to have a central office in
a-"ortdon and by the payments of dividends to contractors
!ad other modes by which the Government makes payments
.° trust to the diffusion and dissemination of notes; or is
it to keep up an agency of branch banks all over England,
:rebind and Scotland ?" If the latter plan were adopted
Voestion whether such a system would be found to come
a t all to the views of some of its supporters. (Hear,
it On the other hand, if no such system were followed
4raigbt be doubted whether serious inconvenience would
40t arise from the action of such a bank of issue wholly un-
eorrnected with the establishment carrying on the ordinary
13.Pe rations of banking, the very plan of such an inztitution
i'eitlee founded upon the entire separation of the functions
i Inuing from that of banking. On this q
couestion Lord
cartons has expressed an opinion in thecommittee last
vaeesi on which will, I am sure, receive tho attention of the
house.

object of putting it (the issue of notes) more avow-
edly :and distinctly in the hands of the Government than it is
at present, I think is of .this nature, that so long as there
the
in the public mind an impression that pressure upon
Leo tregling world is ai•ociated with the management of the
konetr‘ry system of the country, it might be very ineouve-
b, lent to place that monetary system more avowedly in the
aands of the Government; and I must also observe that I
think the interposition of some responsible body between the
Govern went and the management of paper issues might be
exceedingly convenient in strengthening and assisting the
Ouvernment to resist pressure which might come upon it at
certain periods to do that which it ought not to do."
IVs may therefore consider the result of Lord Overstone's
°P.minn, as delivered to the committee of last session, to be
unfavourable to the assumption by Government of the ex-
chesive right of making paper issues. Another meat expe-
311e:iced Bank director entered a little more fully into this
qn estion, and showed rather more in detail some of the
?aie sequences which that system would give rise to. This
14 Air. Hubbard's description of the consequences which
Iscnild ensue on entire separation of the functions of issue
ota those of banking. He says :
" The larger proportion of the public dividends aro now paid
'l' :a mere stroke of the pen ; the amount of dividends duo to
eau banker, not only for himself, but for all his constituents,
Is carried in ono line to his credit, and in a few hours
3,400,000/ or 4,000,000/. of public dividends are in that way
dim Posed of, and transferred from the audit roll to the different
ecaPorations and banks who are entitled to receive them ; so
that
the economy of labour and avoidance of risk are great
and marked advantages of these two functions being per-
feruaed by-the-same corporation. Still in their essence they
are, of course' distinct fuuctio-~s.
In Let, at present the dividends are paid with a very
mall use of bank-notes ? A very small use.
at still it is conceivable that the Government might,
for tine purpose of making issues, pay dividends in notes?—
uertai nly, it is ono of the most obvious means of issuing notes.
"It might pay salaries, and contractors and others notes,
right it not ?-.-No doubt it might, and that would be a means
Y which those notes would be periodically thrown into eir-
Lulatielt ; and, on the other hand, the payment of the public
„i - i.veauc through the Customs and Eeci.-e would be a means
Tinging those notes hack again, so that there would be a
t„a`_Laal passing out and in of notes through the medium of
tvro operations. Put I ratty observe that if the Govern-
ors WOre to attempt to discharge those two operations in
,m "Ina person the amount of currency required would be
",.ermously larger than it is now. It is owing to the eircum-
Be'llee of the Bank having as customers the various large
Pddend holders that it is enabled to perform all those opera-
.Llol4 with so small ap expenditure of currency.
``• If the Government were to establish a bank of issue of
the own, that would have the effect of counteracting some of
most effectual instruments for economisiug the currency
now' in use I—lt would occasion a very much larger amount
of currency to be required.
"'there would be a greater amount of notes in circulation?
7:-A. much larger-amount of notes in circulation at particular
times, and it would bo subject to very considerable varia-
tions, whereas the operations of the Bank of England have
the effect of reducing, by its expedients, the variations in the
amount of notes. Although they have to pay 6 003 003. at
each of the four quarters, the average variatio 'is vary little
more than 1,000,0001."
Thesis answers must, I think, satisfy the house that a great
economy of the currency is effected by combining the Bank
Of England'operations and the issues of the Bank for the
Payment of dividends, whereas, if the Government were to
assume to itself the exclusive function of issuing, it would
be forced to keep a larger amount of paper in circulation,
illastunch as the Government notes, no less than the notes
~if the Bank of England, would be required to be supported
Dr a reserve of bullion ; and the cost to the public of in-
creasing
the reserve of bullion wonid more than compen-
late any economy which might be derived from any other
tattroe. Therefore, notwithstanding my right hon. friend's
taral2gue about the antiquated relations of the Bank of
-adigh and with the Government, I confess that I see great
advantages in the present state of things with respect to
management of our currency, and I doubt whether any
economy to the public or. any security to the holders of
notes would arise from an entire subversion of the existing
11Aq'tel and a prohibition of , the issue of notes by the
Bank of England, by private banks in England, by the
uanks in. Ireland and Scotland, and by the assumption of
an eXCIUSiVe right of issue on the part of the Government.
There ie a point as to which it seems to me there is some
misunderstanding in the public mind. It is often used as
• u argument in favour of this measure that the right of
"suing coin is one of the ". Regalia Coronae," and that the
power of issuing paper money bears a close analogy to it,
and an.ght to be exercised by the State. What is the fact in
regard to the issue of coins? There is no doubt that the
right of issuing coin is a part of the prerogative of the
Crown, but the Crown is in fact nothing but a manufac-
turer of coin. The Crown never purchases bullion, and
never takes any step for supplying -the public with coin.
Bullion is brought to the Bank of England, the Bank of
England sends it to the Mint to be coined, the Mint coins
it and returns it to the Bank of England, the Bank issues
it to its customers in the form of sovereigns or any other
denomination of cola.. The entire business of the receipt
%bullion and the issue of coin is managed by the Ban's of
England as much as is thuissue of paper, and in truth the
only function with respect to the coinage which the Crown
performs is that of impressing the die upon the bullion
which is sent to the Mint to be coined, that bullion being
in fact the property of the Bank er of private individuals.
Therefore, those who imagine that the country would re-
ceive great advantages from a Government bank and a Go-
vernment issue of coin will find when the case comes to be
examined that their idea is altogether fallacious. Looking,
therefore, to the present state of our paper currency, to
the issues of the Bank of England, to the issues of the
Pk, and to the issues of banks in Ire-
land and Scotland. I cannot see at present that there is
• "jibing which either, according to our own observation
at the facts, or the opinion of competent witnesses, calls
11Pati us to resort to any compulsory measures for a sup-
pression of all issues except those of the Bank' of England
--VG vest that right exclusively in the Bank of England,or
still more to abolish the right of issue by the Bank
of
England itself, and invest that right in the Crown. lam
not prepared, whatever may be the result of this motion,
either to submit to the house a measure for the develop-
ment of the Act of 1841 iu the manner which I have de-
scribed, or to assent to the alteration %411'ch has been I
pro-
posed., Rut then the right honourable gentleman, if
lightly catch the spirit of his motion, says—" inquiry
is exhausted ; you have done everything that com-
mittees can accomplish; you have now arrived at the
time for legislation ; the Government is bound to have a
Prlli ; call upon you to state what is your policy with
a'n4ret to the eurretry, and to bring forward some new
.„ extensive measure of legislation founded upon that
pointy,
which you ere bound to declare." Well, in answer
to
that appeal I would in the first place remark that, by
Pmmonconeent, thislate commercial crisis out of which, as
understand, this demand open the Government has
grown, 6,3
been cancel, not by any derangement of the
currency,
but by a derangement of capit.d and credit. If
defects
be so—if the present crisis has not grown out of any
!.'cts in our currency why upon the occurrence of
this „'i-*
Is is this demand made upon the. Governnient ?
011'3, are we now called upon peculiarly to legislate upon
told.rcency laws? Why is it that at this moment we are
tall ° deai-ae a currency poliey ? I confess that I a to-
y unable to see why there is any exigency for such a