The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-10 00:00:00

THE ARMY.

Colonel SYKES moved an address for return of the
number of officers and men, distinguishing each arm of the
service, cavalry, infantry, horse and foot artillery, and en-
gineers, annually, from 1800 to 18.38, both years inclusive ;
stating the numbers serving at home, in the colonies, and
in India ; the enrolled pensioners, and embodied militia and
volunteers ; and the amount annually voted for these ser-
vices, distinguishing effective and non. effective services.—
Agreed to.

THE ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE ROYAL
ADDRESS.

The debate was resumed by
Mr. Sergeant DEASY, who, after some preliminary ob-
servations, said that the Government of Lord Derby in
Ireland was open to grave objections as regarded pa-
tronage, and exclusion of Catholics from juries
in particular cases. This had created great bit-
terness of feeling in Ireland, and excited much dis-
trust in the policy and impartiality of Government. That
feeling should be removed, or, at all events, abated, neither
of which he believedwould be effected solong as the present
Government remained in office. (Hear, and oh, oh.) He
denied that the result of the late elections in Ireland
proved the opposite of what he asserted, as was contended
by some parties. It was indispensable that there should be
larger concessions made to Catholics than was proposed by
the Government. He denied that the antecedents of the
present Government were such as entitled them to the con-
sideration of that house or the country at large—that they
showed the greatest hostility to what was liberal and in
accordance with the spirit of reformers. When they at-
tempted to introduce anything of a liberal character they
failed altogether—the Reform bill of last session was a
proof of his position. Such being the case, he contended
that the Government tenure of aim must necessarily be
brought before long to a termination. The Government
might have gained some increase in their
numerical strength ; but it was a fact that
the Liberal party was much more united than
previously, and there was a disposition on the part of that
party to make mutual concessions, in order to secure good
measures for the country. With regard to the foreign
policy of the Government, he did not consider it entitled to
that praise which was claimed for it by certain politicians ;
and the predictions of the Government last session were
falsified by the present state of hostilities. _ As regarded
other departments, he asserted that they would not suffer
much even if the Government changed hands, because on
that side of the house which he occupied there was as much
efficiency as would render the transfer of the executive to
their lands" unattended with any danger. (Hear, hear.)
They had been taunted with their dissensions, but was it
not a fact that there were differences of opinion amongst the
supporters of Government on certain questions ? He denied
that the Government were justified, from the known consti-
tution of the house, in expecting to get such a constitutional
majority as would render their remaining in office prudent
or beneficial to the interests of the country. He believed
that it was highly desirable for the interests not only of his
own country, but of England that power should pass from
the present Government into hands that were more able to
wield it with efficiency, and which would enjoy confidence
at home and respect abroad. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DICKSON proceeded to make his maiden speech.
He said it was with no ordinary diffidence that he ventured
to throw himself upon the indulgence of the house—a diffi-
dence which arose from his total inexperience of parliamen-
tary usages. But he felt that he would be guilty of a great
neglect of duty if he allowed that inexperience to interfere
with the expression of his conscientious opinions. (Cheers.)
It had been made 'matter of reproach to the Conservative
members that they had, on the former evening, allowed
gentlemen on the other side to monopolise the whole of the
discussion. They had been taunted with being unable, or
unwilling, to explain their reasons for sitting on that side
of the house. Though, as a new member, he might be sup-
posed not the best fitted to reply, he was willing to accept
the challege which had been thrown out to them. It was
admitted by the noble lord who moved the amendment that
it was a decidedly party move. (Cheers.) He had no wish
t,
LaY down any standard as to the principles which ought
to characterise the debates of the house, but he felt that a
a on rtyraove ought to have some grounds of sense and rea-
sonwhich to found it. Now, he had watched the whole
of this debate; and though the arty opposite had bad the
sole occupation of the battle-field he had not heard a single
argument to prove the justice of the motion. (Cheers.) He
would not allude to What took place in former Parliaments.
It was not for him to defend acts
menof her
Majesty's ministers—
it was n.t for him, to
who
were so much better able to defend themselves n
but he
must say for them, that ho believed theidsso lution of
Parliament was the only constitutional course which, under
the circumstances, they could have pursued. He believed
they had taken the straightforward line of policy in refus-
ing to carry on the Government as the obedient slaves of
an opposing majority. (Cheers.) lie
believed they had
acted constitutionally in advising her 11404 y to appeal
to the country to send to her assistance stich a body of re-
presentatives as would enable one liariy or another to rule
with authority. And now that they had met it was their
bounden duty not to impede the course of legislation, but
to give the Government a fair chime° of unfolding their

measuies, There was one thing at least of 7•12.111,11,rY 7, ere
bound to take care • if thec did by their decis 10 ...ow declare
that the present
to
be Aft not to rett tin the reins of
office they ought to be prepared with a strong Government
to take their places. Now, he would ask hon. gentlemer- to
ask themselves wher-4 that
look round on the other side arc.
Tt was -now said That the
diversities which theyall knewent was to come from.to
existed or, the other
side had been arranged, while her NZ:lest-7's Ministers
were taunted with having lately Jost two ef their ablest
colleagues. Well, he regretted that, ,but when he contrasted
this honourable though painful conduct with, these arrange-
ments of differences in prospect of oit,lce on lii .'2.9ler wide,
he could only say that it was not on his Bide, at any rate, :bat
men consented to stifle their principles for the sake of e•
(Cheers.) The two noblelords opposite-were, it was said,•read.f
to act together. It would ill become him to speak with any
but feelings of the most profound respect of those two noble
lords, but he might ask, were the antecedents of one of
them such that they considered him gifted with that com- I
bination of energy, discretion, and consideration for the I
feelings of foreign powers which would enable him to pre-
serve neutrality ? With regard to the noble lord the member
for London, he might ask whether that noble lord would
take up as his ground of action the broad basis of the
English constitution, or whether he would extend the hand
of friendship to men whom he knew to entertain opinions
that, however honourably and conscientiously they held
them, were opposed to the feelings of the large majority of
the house and country ? (Cheers.) He would now come
to the question of that support which it was made matter of
complaint against the majority of the Irish members that
they were about to give to the Ministers. It could not be
said of him that he was attached to any hierarchy,
but he felt unbounded pride in the thought that while
he stood there as a sincere Protestant, and one who,
as was known to all who knew him, was incapable of
sacrificing his principles to his interests, yet he stood
in that house as the representative of a great Catholic con-
stituency. He denied that the Catholics demanded any
illegitimate preponderance whatever—he hurled back with
scorn the imputation that they were prepared to make their
religion a matter of bargain and sale. (Cheers.) If, then,
they wished to know why it was that the Roman Catholics
of Ireland had sent Conservatives to Parliament he would
answer, it was because they were disgusted with the
treachery of which they had been made the victims by
other parties, and they had made up their minds to give a
fair trial and support to men who they believed would give
them that justice and due consideration to which they were
fully entitlM. as an important element in the'country. He
would appeal to the Irish members of Parliament—those
men who had not always received due credit for their con-
duct—menwhose talents had not always met in that house
with that consideration which they deserved—men who,
though they were opposed to him on many points, yet he
believed had conscientiously devoted themselves to the wel-
fare of their common country—he would ask them had they
forgotten the treatment they received from other hands,
and were they now prepared to see their country made the
tool of faction and the mere shuttlecock for place ? (Cheers.)
Let them give the present Government a fair trial ; and if
on that trial they were found wanting he would be among
the first to join with them in an attempt to remove them
from office. But until that were proved he asked his
countrymen to join with him in giving a cordial support to
men who were prepared to maintain neutrality in Europe
and to uphold the integrity of this great empire. (Cheers.)
Mr. DUFF supported the amendment..
Mr. S. FITZGERALD said the noble lord the member
for Tiverton had complained that the Government had left
all the argument to the Opposition side, and that it rested
with the unsupported speech of his (Mr. Fitzgerald's) right
hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to vindicate
their policy. But he thought he might appeal to those who
had heard the debate of the previous evening whether, al-
though the preponderance in number of assailants rested
with hon. gentlemen opposite the victory and the success
did not remain with his right hon. friend. (Cheers.) Indeed,
the noble lord the member for Tiverton seemed to be of that
opinion himself when, on the first night of a debate of that
importance, he was constrained himself to enter the lists to
restore the unequal fight, and to inspirit again the failing
courage of his forces. (Cheers.) The noble lord took the
position which had also been assumed by nearly all the
speakers on the Opposition side, that the house ought to re-
fuse their confidence to her Majesty's Government on the
ground of failure in their administration of both our domes-
tic affairs and our foreign relations. With reference to the
first point, the noble lord had said that during the whole
course of the past session the Government found themselves
unable to carry those measures which they considered de-
sirable for the public service, and to give effect, when in
office, to the opinions they expressed in Opposition. The
noble lord had already been reminded that the failure to
carry measures thought to be necessary to the welfare of
the country was not peculiar to her Majesty's present ad-
visers. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has been reminded
that if the present Government were unsuccessful in their
reform measure the noble lord the member for the City of
London has been twice in the same predicament. (Cheers.)
And the noble lord (Lord Palmerston) was only not open
to a similar retort, because, although he promised a mea-
sure of reform, he was not able to redeem it. (Cheers.)
The noble lord told the Government that they were not able
to carry their India Bill, but be was himself open to a simi-
lar remark. Night after night the India Bill of the noble
lord appeared upon the votes—(" No, no," and "hear,
hear")—but, if he remembered aright, some of the most
important provisions of that measure were stoutly and stiffly
but unsuccessfully contested by the noble lord. (Cheers.)
Under what circumstances did the Government of Lord
Derby come into office ? (Cheers and counter cheers.) It
was in consequence, not only of the vote of that house, but
of the unanimous and indignant vote of the whole people
of England that the noble lord was expelled from office.
(Cheers.) The noble lord's argument came to this, that, be-
cause in the last Parliament Lord Derby undertook to form
a Government which did not possess the confidence of the
house, it was therefore the duty of the present House of
Commons to also refuse the noble earl its confidence. The
noble lord further said that the Government were not
entitled to the confidence of the House because they were
enable to carry out in power the principles which they pro-
fessed in Opposition. They were told that if the present
vote were successful a new Government would be formed
upon a wide basis. It was not stated that it would em-
brace all the sections of the Liberal party, because, although
it had been asserted that the differences in that party were
only differences of detail and not of principle, yet he saw
gentlemen upon the benches opposite who differed more
from the noble lords than the noble lords differed from many
hon. gentlemen sitting on the Ministerial aide of the house.
(Cheers.) They were also told that the new Government
was to be formed on the principle of mutual concession.
But the house had a right to know by whom those conces-
sions were made, to whom they were made, and their
nature. He would ask the hon. member for Birming-
ham—who did good service to the Conservative cause in
the autumn and winter by going from town to town propos-
ing schemes that startled the country—whether in this new
coalition the hon. member was to be allowed to carry out in
power the principles he professed in Opposition. (Loud
cheers.) Of this he was sure that the House of Commons
would not extend its confidence to any Government unless
it distinctly understood on what grounds that Government
was to b 3 formed, and whose principles were to guide the
future Cabinet. (Hear.) Leaving domestic affairs to those
who would follow him, he would ask permission to say a few
words in answer to the argument of the noble lord, that the
Government were not entitled to the confidence of the House
of Commons in consequence of the policy they had pursued
upon foreign affairs. The noble lord put this accusa-
tion in two points of view. The first found fault with the
present Administration because they had not prevented
the breaking out of hostilities in Italy; and, secondly, he
maintained that the Government did not deserve the con-
fidence of the house because their declaration of neutrality
was not sincere, and because they were inspired by Austrian
sentiments. He could understand accusations levelled
against the Government upon such grounds as these—that
they had not interfered at the right time or in the right
manner; or that they had not displayed energy enough ; or
that they had not made all the exertions that were necessary
to maintain the peace of Europe. But these were exactly
the points which, m the present state of their information,
it was not possible for the house to form a judgment upon.
(Hear.) That information had just been laid upon the table by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, anciwhen it was in the hands
of members it would then be in the power of the House of
Commons to say whether the Government had exerted
themselves in the right manner and at the right time. But
when the house were in ignorance of what the Government
had done, to ask them to condemn the Government, not on
account of the measures they had taken, but solely on ac-
count of the result, was a claim on the part of the noble
lord so totally irreconcilable with any principle of justice
that he was sure the House of Commons would not adopt
it. (Cheers.) The noble lord, however, seemed to be aware
that the house could not pass an opinion without knowing
what the Government had done, and he therefore
volunteered some information to the house as to
the course which the Government had taken. Ile
said they had used the language of menace to France,
that they had patronised Austria, and that it was under-
stood in Europe that if hostilities broke out and England
wereAuesntrigaag.edHino kthehme,wthneotGforora whomvernment wthouoludothalkeeltohrde parthad
of
received this information, but he would assure him that,
from beginning to end, there was not one tittle of truth in
the report that had been made to the noble lord. (Cheers.)
At no time had the Government ventured to use the lan-
guage of menace to France. They had never done more than
attempt to hold an impartial balance, and to give
both parties enatledasthem to give. (Hear.) His
v such
iad-
visers advice iboce their situation as ad-
right hon. friend the Attorney. General
attention for
olrelandftthe
a in the
last session of Parliament called the
to some striking circumstances which occurred in 1848. If
hon. members who were not in the house at that time
it, of
il f 84
wBe,
would refer to the Blue-looks
peace
fo nE theuro
Europe,
et a, li
and
Italian affairsmgthey would learn that if the Italian question—the difficulties
of which menaced the
did not preserve our neutrality, wrap the whole world in
flames—were not settled in 1848, it was wholly owing to the
'noble lord. (Cheers.) In a despatch written to Lord Pen_
sonby the noble lord said:—
" I have to say that a question so important in itself, and
so mixed up with national feeling and with traditional
policy as the question whether Austria shall or shall not
retain a portion of her Italian possessions, has seldom been
decided simply by negotiation and without an appeal to
arms; and it seems now to have become inevitable that the
fortune of war must, to a certain degree at least, determine
the manner in which this question between Austria and the
Italians is to be settled. The part which naturally belongs
to the British Government in this matter is to remain a spec-
tator of events, until invited by the contending partici; to
interpose by good' offices with a view to an amicable arrange-
ment.
Was it for the noble lord who said that the Italian ques-
tion must be left to the arbitrament of the sword, that the
Minister of England must fold his arms and not interpose
until the parties to the war, exhausted by the contest,
should invite the interference of the British Government
—was the noble lord who thus left the matter to the chances
of war the person now to turn round upon the Government
and blame them, not for having undertaken negotiations,
but because, having undertaken them, those negotiations
were unfortunately unsuccessful ? (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON—What is the date?
Mr. S. FITZGERALD—August, 1848. At any rate
continued the hon. gentleman, in respect to the conduct of
the Government in endeavouring to prevent hostilities, he
might fairly claim a comparison of the policy of 1859 with
the policy of 1848. (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord said
—and it was the gravest charge which he imputed to the
Government—that they were not sincere in their declarations
of neutrality, and they were influenced by Austrian syn3Pa-
thies. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) could only say that no single
word had dropped, not a single line had been written, not a
single act had been done by any raemi)or of tho Government

that could in the least degree justify such an insinuation ;
but, as the noble lord challenged an examination into semi-
wthies, and accused the Government of Austrian tenden-
cies, it would not be improper to consider whether the noble
lord himself was entirely free from sympathies en the other
side. (Hear.) He would not inquire too curiously into the
nature the objects, or the results of Imperial hospitality—
(" oh," and cheers)—he would not speculate upon combi,
nations at Compiegne, but assume that a compliment was
intended to be paid by a great monarch to an illustrious
statesman, perhaps with some desire to show a recognition
of the earnestness with which the noble lord had endea-
voured at no remote period to alter the laws of this country
in order to gratify an Imperial desire. (Cheers.) More re-
f cently the noble lord had made a speech at Willis's Rooms,
1
where he was supported by the noble lord the member for
London and the hon. member for Birmingham—a combina-
tion so portentous and extraordinary that the man who
might have ventured a year ago to predict its possibility
~,-ould have been considered qualified for confinement in a
sweetie asylum. (Laughter and cheers.) However, in such
convexly the noble lord made a statement of his views, which
it we's said was not entirely satisfactory, even at that early
period' of the alliance, to the hon. member for Birmingham ;
and in ghat statement he put forth as the keystone of his
foreign policy the maintenance of most intimate relations
with Fran ce. (Hear.) No one could more highly value the
alliance now happily existing between this country and
conduced France
contdhud
an himself (Mr. Fitzgerald)—he believed that it
had
greatly to the advantage of both countries as
well as of I.7airope—(hear)—but he thought that the mo-
ment when NI -e were professing a strict and impartial neu-
trality was ha:N:lly the time for the noble lord to declare that
the first object al the Government, if it should be formed,
would be the ineeisatenance of friendly relations—not with
both Powers, but with one of the belligerents only. (Cheers.)
The noble lord had done more. In a speech delivered at
Tiverton the noble losd had expressed a hopethat before the
end of the campaign the Austrians would be driven out of
Italy. (Cheers.) Na doubt those who loved freedom and
liberty might desire ite exi.ension in Italy, but would it be
prudent to commit the guardianship of our "strict neu-
trality" to a noble lord wise declared he had one common
object with the Emperor of the French, whose arms he de-
sired to see successful, and the keystone of whose policy
would be to maintain the most iatimate relations with the
Government of France ? (Hear, hear.) Would that be
consistent with strict and impartial neutrality ? (Cheers.)
But the case did not end there. The noble lord in his
speech referred to what he called the bad origin of the pre-
sent Government. What was that origin ? Why, the
noble lord was expelled from power, not more by the vote of
that house than by the general feeling. of the country, be-
cause it was felt that he was sacrificing the honour and
interests of this country to the Government of France.
(Cheers.) Might not the noble lord, who was willing to
alter the laws to gratify the Emperor of the French, be also
induced to modify his policy for the same reason ? (Hear.)
In the early poOton of his remarks he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had
observed that the formation of a Government upon a broad
basis must, even in reference to domestic policy, expose
great differences of opinion, and that some of its members at
least could not carry out in power the opinions which they
had expressed in opposition. (Hear, hear.) But in what
position would such a Government be placed in respect to
foreign affairs ? The noble lord opposite (Palmerston) would
have to forget that for his loss of power last year he was con-
siderably indebted to the noble lord the member for London.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for London, too,
must forget something. He must forget that as a member
of that house he was asked by the noble lord, then at the
head of the Government, to adopt that which he described
as a " policy of humiliation and shame." (Hear, hear.)
When the future Government upon a " wide basis" should
be formed, embracing all the talents and sections, it would
be impossible to overlook the claims of the right hon. gen
tleman the member for Ashton (Mr. M. Gibson), In what
position would that right hon, gentleman be placed ? What
were the opinions he had expressed of the foreign policy of
the noble lord the member for Tiverton, who from his vast
experience and general knowledge must exercise a para-
mount influence in such matters in any Cabinet of which he
was a member. The right hon. menthee for Ashton, in a for-
mer debate, quoted a public writer whose words, he said,
" seemed to be aimed with. wonderful accuracy, ar,tl with a
very discriminating appreciation of the real character of the
noble lord, and of the character of his foreigispolicy." Those
words thus adopted by the right hon. gentleman gated—
' " ' There is no constituted authority in Europe with which
Lord Palmerston has not quarrelled; there is no insurrection
that he has net betrayed, The ardent partisans of Sicilian,
Italian, and Hungarian independence have certainly no es-
pecial cause for gratitude to a Minister who gave them
abundance of verbal encouragement and then abandoned
them to their fate.' 'On the other hand '-.=mark this—
' when Lord Palmerston has made up his mind to court the
good will of a foreign power no sa4rifice of principle or of
interest is too great for him.' "
The right hon. gentleman must admit that these words were
large enough to include the abandonment even of " a strict
neutrality." The passage quoted by the right hon. gentle-
man concluded with the following emphatic words--
"From first to last his character has been the want of a
firm and lofty adherence to the known interests of England,
and it is precisely from a want of such guiding laws of con-
duct that our foreign policy has degenerated into a tissue of
caprices, machinations, petty contentions, and everlasting
disputes."
He (Mr. Fitzgerald) did not deny that he thought in many
respects, those expressions were not just to the noble lord,
but he imagined the right hen gentleman who had adopted
them as describing with ' wonderful accuracy' the character
of the noble lord would, if he joined the future Government
upon a wide basis, find sofas difficulty in reconciling that
step with the opinions hehad expressed while in opposition.
(Hear, hear.) The words had been spoken recently, the
events to which they referred were not remote, and he did
not believe the house would, now that issue was placed di-
rectly before it, proclaim avant of confidence iu the present
Administration in order to establish a Government the
chief and most influential member of which would be the
noble lord whose conduct had been thus described by one of
his future colleagues, (Hear.) On the contrary, he looked
with confidence to the issue of this conflict, and be believed
that, whether the division took place to-night or to-morrow,
the house would, by giving her Majesty's present Ministers
a -majority, enable them, in strict accordance with the
opinions, wishes, and feelings of their countrymen, to carry
out that policy of strict neutrality to which they were
pledged—(cheers)—and which they believed to be necessary
as well for the interests of thiseountry as for the highest in-
terests of humanity and civilisation, (Loud cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT and Sir G. C. LEWIS rose together, but the
right hon. baronet gave way to the hon. gentleman.
Mr. BRIGHT—Sir, in the observations which, with the
permission of the house, I shall address to it, I shall endea-
vour to keep myself as strictly as I can, under the circum-
stances, to the grounds upon which I shall feel it my duty to
support the amendment which is now before the house.
The hon. gentleman who has just sat down, I think, has
not done very much to clear up the question before us. Ad-
mitting all that he says to be true, it comes very nearly to
this, that he thinks the noble lord the member for Tiverton
is about as bad as his colleagues. I think that is the whole
substance of his speech. (Cries of No, no, met by cheers.)
I am not about to defend the conduct of the noble lord the
member for Tiverton—(hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches)—nor am I about to retract a single sentence that
I have ever said with regard to him ; but I must beg to re-
mind hon. gentlemen opposite that by their unanimous
opinion in private, and some of them have expressed
it in public, it is a matter of deep regret that they
have not been for years past arrayed under his banners.
(Cheers, and cries of "No, no.") I shall not attempt to
add any proof to that, because on both sides of the house
what I have stated is well known to be true. I am very
glad, sir, that the tactics of Tuesday night have been de-
parted from, and that the silent system is not to be
imposed on hon. gentlemen opposite throughout this debate.
(Hear.) I was afraid that we were coming back to times
one remembers many years ago, when hon. gentlemen were
not allowed to speak on a question now happily settled for
fear they should say something that it would be almost
impossible for their leaders to answer or to atone for in
debate. I shall not endeavour to establish the propriety of
the course lam about to take on several—l was going to
say on any—of those grounds which have been attempted to
be met by the hon. gentleman who has just spoken, I
should not think it necessary to vote against the Govern-
ment because they insisted upon a dissolution of Fer-
ment, a proceeding which no doubt members always feel to
be objectionable, nor would I vote against them because
there were certain vague charges of corruption brought
against them at the recent election, for I know diet our sys..
tem is balanced between a considerable freedom in the large
boroughs, corruption in the small boroughs, and coer-
cion in the counties. (Cries of "No, no," and counter
cheering.) I know further that practices which I should
neither like to be concerned in nor to defend have not
been confined to the present holders of power; and unless
I had proof more distinct than I have, I should not think
it would justify me in a vote of want of confidence in the
Government on account of any charges I have heard with
respect to their proceedings in the recent contests. In
regard to the qestion of not having kept the peace of
Europe, I should not for a moment think of -supporting a
vote of want of confidence on that account. (Ministerial
cheers.) If they had permitted this country by mismanage.•
meat to be engaged in war, that might, indeed, have been
a good ground for such a vote ; but I do not see how the
Government of this country can in fairness be held
responsible for the maintenance of peace between two other
great powers of Europe—(cheers from the Ministerial
benches). More than that, in this case I admit I have no
facts before me sufficient to provethat the Government have
not done all that was in their power to prevent the vast ca-
lamities which have so recently befallen Italy. (User.)
The grounds which have been alleged as reasons of com-
plaint may indeed be reasons, but in my mind they offer no
sufficient justification for the support which I am inclined to
give to the amendment which has been moved, I conic to
one point, however, on which I feel that with my views I
have great reason to complain of the conduct of the Govern-
ment, and to charge them with mismanagement in respect
to the course they have taken in regard to the neutrality to
which they have pledged themselves, and of which they
boast. I want to knew whether that neutrality be a real or
pretended neutrality. (Hear.) I have heard from members
of the Government, in whom I am free to admit I have the
greatest confidence, that they are as anxious to keep out of
war as I Call be myself. (Ministerial cheers,) lam not
hasa
no
i duaotb:fb(i:itrt
iatnomi
187: moment ii
itltdit4so
of
say that
eet hcpaoottpi
rtushleaa
ttsi
oliisial i
:in:Lott thel teh G
country,fact,o vet,n bin unet:dlt
gionureergaalri:iitiotLethamt
imudatsteofrthh:spobeepuinastiitoanh :olfsEtuorolepaed.
It will be adieriliitotnedhear:bbeoetnh
te.(l4:l:aatartrik.a.b)ts the public op
pre§.s, by public meetings, and in the ods
of every society, of every rank of lifrieddPei.rnsesoEsfentdh
lteanihrrou:s:thhiithtthaiett
rwouldri,hm
Irishman,
,doiffir
one
et
stiongtilned
socznetesiiiningalenE,
antatliiinisiahs"minaag]rtesnsi.thiiiinlises
1 vavea way,
oe , a
n whateverd he
air and the
positive banger foriakthleviteallbteinaudamnictetoodf
bpyeaceeinno.yn the
in favour of being mixed up ca
hostilities which have broken out. (Hear, hear.) I think the
dent from all that we part of
know. That
people
hon. mem-
ber whom a:M.1;111;14:w addreesing in this house. (Loud cheers.)
The ease before us is this. If Pew be broken, as far as 1
England is ceneerned it can only be brokenly our.
own
voluntary act as regards France. It is quite clear that
AlliArhi, as long as she is at pubs vii# PrY9T 4444 ,
. , r

can never atteck us ; and it is equally clear that unless we
are resolved upon war it is almost impossible that we should
attack Austria. In point of fact, war between England and
Austria alone is very much like a fish in a river fighting with
a horse which, is grazing on its banks. (A laugh.) Certainly
Austria cannot assail England, and there is scarcely any
considerable point in which England can assail Austria,
therefore there is in reality no treat danger of any war acci-
dentally occurring between England and Austria. The
question of neutrality, then, applies almost entirely to the
Government of France.. (Hear.) Now, what has been
done in regard to that ? I make this statement before the
house, because while we have the cry of neutrality on our
lips, nothing should be done that might tend to make that
neutrality difficult or impossible. For example, war was
declared—l am not sure whether before, but immediately
after, there was a great cry of apprehension that we should
be drawn into the war ; and I am told that there has been a
great increase in the naval power of England in the Medi-
terranean. (Ministerial cheers.) It is quite clear that that
cannot be directed, and there is no suspicion that it is di-
rected, in any way against Austria. Then we had a great
stir about enlistments for the navy. (Ministerial cheers.)
There have been exhibitions in the streets of advertising
vans, with bands of music and banners, for the purpose of
enlisting any stray individuals who might wish to exchange
their service and their occupation. At the very time this
was being done, there were, I am told, in ourdepoots, 3,000
or 4,000 seamen capable of mennieg, at any time, twelve
line-of-battle ships. (Ironical laughter.) lam not a very
great authority perhaps on these matters—(hear)—and I
should not think of making the statement I have made if
a had not received it from a person who is acquainted with
the facts, and who is perfectly competent to form a sound
judgment upon them. I do not think that all this can
have reference in any degree to the possibility of hostili-
ties with Austria. Then what has been done in regard
to any other mode of defence ? The Chancellor of the
Exchequer tells us that there are more soldiers in this
country at the present moment than there have been since
the time of the great war, and yet notwithstanding that he
invites everybody who has a little notion of military affairs,
or wanting to have it, to engage himself as a rifleman in
one of the numerous bodies or corps which are are being
formed. (Ministerial cheers,) I know there are gentle-
men who think these things useful—(renewed cheers)—but
at least they will allow there is something to be said on the
other side of the qnestion. 1 rather agree with the ingenious
author of the Biglow papers who says that it' there is any-
thing more ridiculous than military glory it is militia glory
—(cries of " oh, oh.")—and I say that if there is anything
more ridiculous than militia glory it will be amateur rifle-
men glory. If there is any necessity for them lam not
finding fault with them, but I what I say is this, that if
there be any country in Europe, and that country be
France, with which under any conceivable circumstances
in the present state of things you can be brought into con-
test, is it not likely that all these preparations which you
are making, both by land sea, at the time when you are
telling the world your force is so great and complete—is it
not inevitable that the course you are taking must destroy
in the minds of the French Government and the French
people any belief whatever in the language you are holding
in respect to neutrality, any faith in your professions ? I
think it very likely that the rifle corps movement was a
movement of party tactics. (Oh, oh). We know very well
that the yeomanry and militia, and I dare say the rifle corps
movement, do something to add to the strength of the Con
servative party in some of the counties of England. (Re-
newed cries of " oh, oh.") We must either be driven to the
conclusion that you suspect France has designs against us or
else that you contemplate at no distant period the possibility
of attacking France. (Vehement cries of "no, no. ') One
of those two conclusions I hold you cannot escape from after
the conduct which the Government has adopted. I want to
ask the Government whether, as rational men, apart from
those superlstitious fears which sometimes haunt the minds
of almost all men, there is any fair ground why we should
add from year to year to every armament of this country,
and to mg military expenditure, on the ground of appre-
hension of danger from France ? The present Emperor of
the Fi each, at least in his conduct to this country, has
given no ground for suspicion. (Cheers.) The house will
allow me to say that I have a right to be deemed a person
who can exettsiee au impartial judgment on this question.
I did not approve of what I call the hasty recognition of the
acee,ssion of the Emperor of the French to the throne of
France. It did not appear to me to a question which we
ought to have been enthusiastic about. I never approved
of the intimate personal alliance which has existed between
the Ministry and court of this country and the court of the
French Emperor; I did not join the crowds in the streets
of. London when the Emperor and Empress came to Eng-
land, and when the press that now assails him asked the
people to prostrate themselves as it were before his chariot
wheels. (Hear.) I never joined in this house In the ex-
cessive and fulsome laudations which I am sorry to say I
have he trd from both sides, and, therefore, having no feel-
ing of heetility to any person reigning in Europe, or any
people—and it would possibly not matter if I had—
(laughter)—coming here to discuss these questions, I have
an impartial opinion, and if the house will allow me I will
state it. (Hear.) I say, that for what was done at the time
when the Emperor of the French obtained his present posi-
tion of power he can owe no gratitude to the Government
or the people of England. I say that he went into the
Russian war with England, not because he 'wished to go
into that war, but because he thought it highly useful to
him, and he was anxious evidently to associate himself
closely with all the foreign policy of England. I say he
entered Into war with China at the request of the Govern-
ment of England, and I say he had an opportunity to carry
out those benevolent designs which some men think he
entertaine, if he have entertained them, at a time when all
the military resources of England were being sent some
10,000 miles away to quell a most gigantic and perilous
revolt, (Cheers.) More than this, at the present moment
he has ors his hands a war with a great military power ;
he has on his hands enough to tax the energies of any
ruler and of any people. (Bear, hear.) Surely it is not
necessary to appeal to the common sense of hon. members,
and to argue, that whatever may have been the danger
heretofore from the side of France, that danger must be
iMmeasurahly diminished by the circumstances in which
the Government of France is at this moment placed. Yet
if it be possible for that which has been proved to be ima-
ginary to become real now—and if it were real before it
must have become imaginary now—then I argue this way,
that there is no increased cause to suspect France, and that,
on the contrary, if there were ever any cause to suspect
her, that cause is now diminished and reduced to the barest
minimum. But what is the conclusion to be drawn from
the proceedings of the Government ? If you agree that
there is no cause to suspect France, you are driven to the
conclusion that your Government contemplates the possibi-
lity, nay, the probability, of attacking France. (Loud cries
of " No, nn," from the Ministerial benches.) Don't let hon
gentlemen opposite think that I am charging the Govern-
ment with such an intention. I am only showing that from
the unfortunate course they have taken their proceedings
lay them open to the charge, and I shall be glad when, in
the course of this debate, we shall have upon this point a
frank declaration from the Government which shall be satis-
factory to this country and to Europe with respect to this
grave and perilous question. It is not only the impression
in England, but you know very well that the proceedings
of the British Government have created in the minds of
other people an idea that we know something which they
do not know, and when they see the most powerful organ of
the press in London writing in a manner to make that alarm
more alarming, it is not to be wondered at that there should
be an uncomfortable feeling. That feeling exists not alone
in England but in Germany. This opinion is generally
expressed, as an 3, Englishman may see from the German
papers, or hear from persons recently travelling in Ger-
many, that the proceedings of the English Government are
all directed, not against Austria, but against France, and
therefore they, believe that the Government is rather
inclined to aisle with Austria than with France. If
you inquire what is the opinion generally expressed in
Paris you will find that there is a sense of want of confi-
dence in the English Government very much like that
which, I believe, prevails in the house at the present mo-
ment. (Hear.) There is growing up--I do not believe it
is from anything which the Government has written or
from anything the Government has thought, or from any-
thing that their agents abroad have done, but from the cir-
cumstances I have detailed—in the minds of the French
Government and of the intelligent people of France who
read what is going on in this country, a feeling that the
alliance which has so long existed is being gradually rent
asunder, if not violently, and that a coolness and danger is
growing up where there has been friendship and perfect
security. Now, air, lam disposed to blame the Govern-
ment for this. (Hear, hear.) They may choose to say, and
I shall not be able to dispute it, that they have had no such
intentions; but I am satisfied that in England and on the
Continent of Europe their
proceedings must shave been
deemed to be altogether unneeeseasy, if there was not a
latent belief on the part of the Government that sooner or
later they would be compelled to take sides against the
Government of France. If I recollect the speech of the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—a
speech which he made not very long ago to his consti-
tuents—there was in it what I may call a bounce and
a boast about the pecuniary condition of this coun-
try, which I did not think quite becoming in a
Cabinet Minister or a Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
right hon. gentleman told the world that 20 minima a year
for 10 or 20 years, what did it signify to a great and indus-
trious people likta this ?—and when he referred to that
eyeatest of calamities, thenationaldebt—the right hon. gen.
tleman selecting his metaphors, I suppose, from his own
personal experience—said, it was no more than a flea-bite.
I think that when a Cabinet Minister in the position of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer speaks to a large audience of
his constituents and countrymen it would be becoming in
him to be a little more careful in regard to what is accurate
in such matters. Does not the right hon. gentleman know
that that very debt of which he spoke so slightingly has
been the cause of the embarrassments during the years in
which it was contracted and ever since of millions of fami-
lies, and that there is not a gaol or workhouse in the land
whose walls have not resounded with the lamentations and
sorrows of those who traced their ruin to the excessive
amount of taxation which that debt brought upon them.
(Cheers.) I can't have confidence, lam sorry to say, in a
Minister who thus endeavours to mislead the public, and in
a Government whose neutrality, so far as one can see any
active exhibition of it, is to be found in continued and
gigantic preparations for war, (Hear, hear.) lam told it
would be a dreadful thing if there were to be a change of
an hon.
ge,nntt,leifinanonebiesh, after
merae in
lltotaKkeinpglaiakcee.)
who,
remember
baenr
h
interesting book that he wrote upon Egypt, told us that at
Cairo, whenever the plague was very destructive, whenever
great numbers of people died, which was every few days,
that professional "howlers" were employed. (Laughter.),
Now, whenever any government is found to he in extremis,
we find these professional howlers crying out, with which-
ever House of Parliament they may be connected, and in
whatever part of the Wept-end they may happen to reside.
(Laughter,) Now, with respect to the next Government—
(Minis terial cheers and laughter)—l have no objection to look
in the face those difficulties which to hon. gentlemen opposite
aro so mysterious. I think that in all probability we shall
have the same profossions of neutrality that came from that
(pointing to the Treasury) bench ; but at the same time I
hope, and I believe, that so far as regardsthat country with
which alone there is the smallest danger of our becoming
embroiled—that with respect to that country there will be
felt, emonte all classes of its people, that there is somewhat
less of coldness, a mewbat more of sympathy, than, so far
as we know and can gather, has been shown by the present
Government. (Hear, hear.) I have no objection to tell
the noble lard the Member for Tiverton that I am not one
of those who have ever approved of that strict and full alli-
ance which has existed between France and England for a
few years peat. I do not think, though it has been very
popular in En,glesisl—l have never thought that it was an
alliance which added to the dignity and to the power for
good of either of these Governments or either of these na-
tions, and therefere I shall be glad to find in a future Go-
vernment—if there be on 2 soon to be formed—that the
relations between the two countries should rather be such
fia as d ,we
andho
should
with
bt he euelrc.dßenastil tituiovefst
itetrodh, the
nw world--generous
ther d
partg e n
oerfoue
as
cahn de
odui
ng digni-
fied, r
yi -
in such e )nanner as to show that they both have an under-
standing witis, and bear intimate relation to, ilia rest of the
offerw t h
6rivespecmtereto
observation,
and
Ipoit oinil.this ground, that we fluty chew
onra
onfasdtnpi
eoei
inetaisi
aotEc
irfooowspri
eel..
go
nr
thet, we have learned something
g from that wartllp 1007 subse,
from therst, something

quent to which efforts arelibeing made to undo. That war '
loaded us with that debt, with that taxation, with that pau-
perism, and with that widespread misery, which has never
since entirely ceased, and which arose from our blindly
plunging into that war. Your war with Russia, to which
the house knows I was from the very first entirely opposed,
is now generally felt throughout all classes of the people-to
have been fruitless in all but the loss of English blood
and of English treasure. Let the house remember that
those who sit on both sides of it have the same inte-
rests. We on this side do not pretend to a morality and
humanity that you have not ; but I-think I may appeal to
both sides of the house in asking if it would not be a wise
thing for us now to come to the conclusion that so far as re-
gards continental wars, in which there is no probability of
European nations attacking this country, it is our interest,
however others may involve themselves in conflict, to leave
the contest to them, and keep aloof from the struggle ? I be-
lieve that if we do so, with the happy geographical position
of these islands, with advantage of a free press, withthe
intercourse between this country and the other nations of
Europe, we shall set an example which will exercise great in-
fluence when these nations do by any unhappy circumstances
become involved in war, when weoan show that it is a solemn
principle of the English nation to abstain from shedding its
blood in European conflicts, we shall then be regarded by the
continental nations as an impartial tribunal, and those na-
tions might appeal to us we itha belief that, when they were
asking our counsel and good offices these would be given in
i the sprit of generosity and confidence with which they were
asked. (fkar, hear.) Now, sir, I must pass for a moment to
another great question, on which I feel as strongly, er
nearly so, as that on which I have referred—l mean the
question of Parliamentary Reform. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer made everything that could be made for his side
of the question in his speech the other night, a speech which,
probably, considering the ease he had in hand, was as much
to the purpose as it would be possible for human ingenuity
to make. I thought he was taking the course of a most able
counsel, who in a desperate case advises the prisoner not for
his life to open his mouth, for that if he does there will be
no possibility of avoiding a conviction. (Laughter.) The
right hon. gentleman made something like a general defence
of the course his Government had taken upon the question
of reform, and he, no doubt from past experience, having
great confidence in the generosity and simplicity of many
hon. members on this side of the house, asked them to have

faith in him for the future. (Renewed laughter.) The
right hon. gentleman, however, postpones the redeeming
of any pledge for the introduction of a Reform Bill till
another year, as if anybody could tell what another year
would bring forth. The debt has been long duo to the
people, yet the right hon. gentleman has asked for another
year to pay it in ; there has been time to pay instalments,
and the right hon. gentleman has produced the bill whichhas
met with such an unfortunate though deserved fate—he
comes forward to give the people an instalment, and pays
them in " Bank of Elegance" notes, and in coin that has
never passed through her Majesty's Mint. (Laughter.) In
point of fact his " Reform Bill" was not only no reform
bill, but the whole country protested against it as anti-re.
form, and his bill did not fail because he had not a majority
at his back, but because he could not have carried it among
his own supporters. How many letters and remonstrances
did Lord Derby receive on the subject of that bill ? Nearly
as many as, if you counted them, there were gentlemen in
that Parliament as I now see opposite to me. But we are to
take a promise for next year I Last year we had promises
that the Reform Bill would be proposed, and how we have
obtained the fulfilment of them we all know. (Opposition
cheers.) What reliance, therefore, is to be placed on the
promises of the right hon. gentleman for next year? Then,
has the past policy of the Government upon this question
of reform been such as to encourage us to a faith, hoping
and believing all things. What confidence can we have in
a measure of the right hon. gentleman, supported by a
party who have been opposed all their lives to everything
like parliamentary reform, who introduced a bill which
would have gone far to defeat whatever there is of freedom
in the present system, and who repudiated the idea of lower
ing the borough franchise, and whose colleagae, moreover,
the Secretary for the Colonies (Sir Bulwer Lytton) sup-
ported the bill as maintaining the ascendancy of the middle
classes, while the working classes were to be shut out ?
(Opposition cheers.) The right hon. gentleman stands to
the last hardened and impenitent on this question, and
seeks to win the innocent and childlike faith of some indi-

viduals in this house. (Cheers and laughter.) I have never
heard of one of the 28,000,000 of people outside this house
who would, in such a circumstance, pledge their faith,
though I am told there are some here who are so prepared.
I do not blame them, but I will only say that they
have arrived at a state f mind of which I can form no ade-
quate idea. (Loud laughter.) Yet there are some persons
who, after all this, are ready to place faith in the right hon.
gentleman, and believe that he is not only a reformer, but
that he is actually panting for the coming of the next ses-
sion of Parliament, when he hopes to take the wind altoge-
ther out of the sails of the noble lord who sits before me
(Lord J. Russell)—when he hopes to convert me into an
attached admirer of the reform he is to propose. (Much
laughter.) I ask the house if it is a befitting thing that
this question of reform should be thrown over to another
year ? I should not blame the right hon. gentleman if he
were not able to pass his bill between this time and that
when hon. gentlemen will think it their duty to kill grouse
—(laughter)—but I say that, if he had been actuated with
the zeal for reform by which some hon. gentlemen in their
innocence suppose him to be actuated, he might at an early
time have laid his bill upon the table of the house, or might
even have carried it to a second reading; and if hon. mem-
bers had found the weather too hot for the consideration of
such a warm subjeet—(laughter)—they might have post-
poned the further consideration of it to a later period, per-
haps in November. Whether Governments were formed
from one side of the house or the other, the great difficuty
was to get a Government with a majority; and, at the risk
of having a Government supported by a minority of that
house, her Majesty must have advisers. Let the house
inquire whether that did not arise from the present state
of the representative system. (Hear, hear.) No doubt
hon. gentlemen opposite believe in the freedom of the
county constituencies, but the greatest corruption exists
in the buying and selling of the small sections of small
constituencies—(hear, hear)—by which these small con-
stituencies pass lightly from one party to the other,
according to the zeal and liberality of the Government in
power. I say this is the reason why such a majority is
not returned as would facilitate the formation of a Govern-
ment which could hold a firm attitude before this country
and assume a strong position in the eyes of foreign Govern-
ments. (Hear, hear.) 'With respect to the formation of
any new Government, I am sure the right hon. gentleman
the Attorney-General for Ireland (Mr. Whiteside) will feel
great interest in that question. (Laughter.) I presume it
would be the duty of that Government to bring in a mea-
sure amending the representation at an early period, which
at least must be very different from any the right hon. gen-
tleman has brought forward—a measure which would en-
large the rights of the people, and obtain the general appro-
bation of Parliament and of the country. lam assuming
that the noble lord near me would adhere to the very mode-
rate programme which he indicated before the dissolution
—I presume it would offer a £lO rental qualification in
counties, and at least a £5 or £6 rental in boroughs—even
that in large boroughs would give a great amount of satis-
faction, and in small boroughs it would enlarge the con-
stituency, but not to a proportionate extent. That even
would, at any rate, give a substantial increase to the con-
stituent body, and a wide difference world be discernible
between it and the measure offered to us by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) There is one other rea-
son whv, besides this question of neutrality and this ques-
tion of heforrn, I think it will be admitted that hon. gen-
tlemen on this side of the house will assent to the course
which has been taken on this occasion, I think the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues will admit, that
if they had been sitting:on this side of the house, they would
have recommended and adopted the line of action now pro-
posed. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us that
the Government is a good Government, that we have not
shown that they have done anything very bad, and that
there is no ground on which we can justify the seeking to
expel them from that side of the house. But there were
parties at the elections. (Cheers.) The Address was
moved by an hon. gentleman in a speech that was very un-
affected and sincere. That hon. gentleman was returned
for the large constituency of South Lancashire. But why
'did he come as the representative of a constituency which
last session sent up an hon. friend of mine ? I presume
because there was a difference of principle between the hon.
gentleman and my friend who was formerly returned for
the constituency. (Hear, hear.) Why was there a contest
in the west riding of Yorkshire, where the numbers polled
for the successful candidates were 15,000 and upwards, and
where the right hon. gentleman (Mr. S. Wortley) who has
sat everywhere in this house--(laughter)—boasted of
having polled 13,000 plumpers. Was that contest entered
upon merely for amusing exercise? (Laughter.) Why
was a political wanderer sent down to Birmingham merely
to give my friends there great trouble? (Great laughter.)
I suppose there must be an essential difference of opinion at
the root of all this. The hon. members for North Warwick-
shire have seen their side of the house drifting towards the
views of this, and a'great change has occurred since I first
had the pleasure of sitting opposite to them in this house.
What was it that you assume the constituencies sent a ma-
jority to this house for ? Was it to support a Government
in a minority, and thinking differently from themselves ? I
cannot think that anything so unreasonable can be imagined.
Having taken our oaths and made our affirmations with a
view to proceeding to the business of the session, are we to
abstain from dealing with a Government holding opinions
of a different character ? Everybody knows it is painful to
execute those great changes which generally occur in such
cases. (Laughter.) lam not quite sure it will occur.
(Laughter from the Ministerial benches.) That is a matter
which rests at present in the bosom of each individual
member, and to-morrow nightwe shall probably be in full-
possession of the information. There is another point in
the speech of the Chancellor of th a Exchequer to which I
must make some allusion. He said that the Tories or Con-
servatives, or Conservative Liberal party—for it has so
many aliases that one hardly knows how to call it—he says
his party has never been so exclusive as this. (the opposition)
bench, and that when a man of capacity was found any-
where he was invited to that bench, and invited to a high
position in his party. That party allowed Sir R. Peel to
lead them, but when he did that which all the world now
admitted to be most beneficial to the country they cast him
off. (Cheers.) They dealt in the same manner with the
right hon. gentleman the member for the University of
Oxford. They had shown generally a rancour scarcely
comprehensible. But though the Conservative party did
so I tell you that thereby you have done yourselves great
harm, though as the result it has enabled the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to become your leader. (Ministerial cheers.)
You have enabled him to occupy the eminent and proud
position in which he sits at this moment. (Renewed
cheers.) But you have almost proscribed the Peelites, and
I could almost imagine that you had derived the idea from
reading the Old Testament of classing them with the Hi-
vites and the Jebusites of whom we read in that book. It
seems almost as if you had doomed them to perpetual ex-
tinction. On this side of thehouse it is said that the Whig
party are exclusive in their formation of Governments ; but
we may, perhaps, now look for a more comprehensive plan
in the formation of a new Government. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) I believe such a Government would Vreserve
the neutrality of England, and pursue a policy on reform
very different from that of the present Government, who
have tampered with it, and may betray it in the session to
come. It is most important, too, that a friendly feeling
should exist with France. These are objects which it be-
comes the people to seek to further. The right hon. gen_
Helium was ingenious when he referred to what he desig.
nated the " reconciled sections" of the Liberal party. For
sixteen years I have had a seat in this house, and I have
never during that period given a v.)te merely for the pur-
pose of displacinc, a Conservative or embarrassing a weak
Government ; but my votes have always been given for the
purpose of forwarding those principles which you all knew
I hold, and that policy which I havealwaysfrankly avowed
and maintained. (Cheers.) Now, I suppose the stoutest
ship with the strongest tackle will sometimes find itself
where it did not expect to be ; but if there be a change of
Government I expect to sit opposite or close alongside the
right hon. gentleman the member for the University—if
he does not change his place—(a laugh)—and I shall purl.
silo the same course that I have always
times past—namely, a 00111130 or 1404,1,0 with ~
re F-d to
the Government, gaPurgwl 14
(Hear, hear.) I never quarrelled
wttli.
Govennoent which intended to lie liberal b it did not
40 411 that WalltPd It to do or go quite so far
ar as I desired.

I have never quarelled with any Government yet except '
when it has deserted the
.principles of its ancient party—
(hear, hear)—and has askea us who sat on the same side of
the house to support that which, with any show of consis-
tency, it was impossible for us to support. Well, it there
come a new Government, and my seat be where I have indi-
cated, I shall watch that Government with the vigilance that.
I have exercised in time past, and with as much forbearance
as I can show consistently with what I believe to be my duty
to those great political objects to which my life has been
devoted. If they pursue a moderate, but an honest and
straightforward course I shall bear in mind the difficulties
by which they are surrounded ; and I shall be anxious to
continue them in office as long as I find them disposed to
move on fairly and reasonably in that direction which may
be said to be indicated by the average opinions of those who
sit on the same side of the house. (Hear, hear.) But if.
unfortunately, they should do some of those things which
they have done in times past—(laughter)—my sorrow will
be great, and my opposition, if I am here, will be inevitable.
(Hear, and laughter.) lam afraid, some night or other,
we shall find them, as in past times, handed over to the
Philistines who will sit opposite them. (Cheers and
laughter.) Yet I hope, sir, whoever may form this Govern-
ment, whoever may be members of the Cabinet, will look
back and take warning from their previous failures. Since
the fall of the Government of Sir It. Peel there has been no
good handling of the Liberal party in this house. Their
Cabinets have been exclusive—their policy has sometimes
been wholly wrong, and generally it has been feeble and
falterinz. (Ministerial cheers.) Let us find that in the
new Government there are men adequately representing
the reconciled sections, acting with boldness and power,
grappling with the abuses admitted to exist, and relying
on the moral sense, the honest feeling of the house, and
the general sympathy of the people of England for
improvement in our legislation, and then I shall begin
to hope that they will have that which her Majesty
evidently wishes—a longer tenure of office than any
Ministry that has existed for many years past. (Cheers.)
Lord ASHLEY said he should vote in favour of the
amendment, because he desired to see the present Govern-
ment turned out, and his own side of the house occupying
their places, for he believed that the country would then
have a sagacious Administration, possessing wisdom to ori-
ginate, and a will to execute, measures marked by a sound
and sensible policy.
Mr. PALK considered that in the present struggle for
place between rival statesmen and rival parties, only one
interest had been forgotten, and that was the interest of
the nation at large. The country was getting sick and
tired of these constant struggles. The so-called Liberal
party-had rejected a better measure than was ever obtained
from any other party. The consequence was a dissolution
of Parliament, and at that critical period England had not
the influence she ought to exercise in maintaining the peace
of the world. He believed the well-being of the country
was perilled by the rivalry of noble lords in their attempts
to obtain office. Unless the house of Commons vindicated
itself, they must not be surprised if such a change were
demanded in the Constitution of this country as would
sweep away from the aristocracy all their powers, and place
them in the hands of the multitude, and of men without re-
gard for our ancient institutions, but quite determined to
take on themselves the Government of England.

Mr. BAXTER wished, in a few sentences, to state the
reasons that influenced him in the vote he intended
giving. He was one of those members who opposed the
introduction of the Conspiracy Bill, and who supported
the amendment which caused its defeat, knowing well
that such a course of proceeding would assist in placing
hon. gentlemen opposite in the places they now held.
That being the case, he could not support any want of
confidence motion based on light or trivial grounds. In
the present serious crisis of the nation's history they were
asked, was the foreign and domestic policy of the Govern-
ment such as to command the respect of the country and
the confidence of the House of Commons ; was the peace
of England safe in their keeping ? . Much as he admired
the tact, courtesy, and ability of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and the admirable management of the navy
and army departments by Sir J. Pakington and Gen. Peel,
he could not bring his mind to answer the question in the
affirmative, and therefore he felt himself compelled to sup-
port the amendment of the noble lord. The legislative fail
ures of her Majesty's Government had been a series of
blunders. (Hear.) He wished some explanation from her
Majesty's Government about their connection with Cardi-
nalWiseman, and how it was that that prelate was received
with open arms by the Conservative party in Ireland ; but if
her Majesty's Government would not explain them he hoped
the hon. gentleman the member for North Warwickshire
(Mr. Spooner) would. He, however, believed that that hon.
member was too honest to be a party to any such compact.
He hoped to see her Majesty's Ministers removed from office,
and to see those men called to the councils of her Majesty
who possessed the confidence of the country, and whose mea-
sures when brought in deserved the support of all parties.

Mr. LIDDELL had detected in the speech of the hon.
member for Birmingham some things which he was unwill-
ing should pass without observation. If he understood
rightly, the hon. member rested the support which he gave
to the vote of want of confidence on three material grounds,
and the most important complaint against them was founded
upon their foreign policy. In the able summary of his opi-
nions which the hon. member for Birmingham gave at the
conclusion of his speech, he said he hoped to see, upon a
change of government, something more of sympathy with
France. He had a right to ask what the meaning of that
was. He had a right to ask whether he meant that we
should sympathise with a nation that had broken the peace
of Europe in a most outrageous manner ? He was as
alive as anybody could be to the importance of the French
alliance ; and he believed that their influence combined
for good purposes might rule the world. They heard that
France was fighting for the independence of Italy, but
he offered his humble protest against a despotic power en-
gaging in such a cause. The next great charge made by
the hon. member for Birmingham against the Government
was that he suspected that its professions of neutrality were
insincere, and he rested that charge uponthe fact that Eng-
land had been increasing her armaments. He (Mr. Liddell)
however, believed that if there was one act of the present
Government which had received the unanimous approval of
the house, and endeared them to the people of England, it
was the efforts made to maintain our naval supremacy.
(Hear, hear.) When the hon, member for Birmingham— a
man of the people—took on himself to say that the neu-
trality of the country was in danger in consequence of the
formation of rifle corps, he would ask whether it was the
Government that established rifle corps, or the people of
England who came forward as one man to do so. (Hear.)
There was one other point which the hon. member for Bir-
mingham adverted to—his own peculiar hobby, reform. He
could not help noticing the remarkable change in the
opinions of the hon. member between last autumn and now,
for now he had very much modified his views. In his speech
that night he had foreshadowed what the policy of a Liberal
government should be, in his opinion, upon the question of
reform, and it needed no prophet to predict that the hon.
member would form ono of any government formed by those
who sat on his side of the house. The bill he now shadowed
forth was not the one he had previously produced, but a
moderate reform bill similar to that which had been advo-
cated by the two right hon. gentlemen who left the Minis-
try a short time ago. He congratulated the hon. member on
his present moderation. As to the want of confidence vote, if
he could look at the matter simply as a social question,he
should regard with indifference any change of government
that might take place, for this simple reason, that at the
present day any government must necessarily bring forward
the same measures. Ho believed that a Reform Bill, from
whichever party it came, would, when it left the committee,
be much the same. It was on considering the foreign aspect
of the matter that he could not make up his mind to vote fora
new government. There was great prestigeattaching to cer-
tain great names, such as Napole6n, Nicholas, Metternich ;
but if there was one name in modern history more unpopular
in Europe than another, it was that of the noble lord opposite
(Lord Palmerston). He admired the character of the noble
lord ; and if we were to have a change of Government, would
prefer to see him at the head of it, for he believed his mea-
sures would be always tinged with principles which influ-
enced members on the Conservative side of the house ; but
his foreign policy was always alarming and often intrusive,
If he was in the Government it was to be feared that his
name would carry influence destructive of the peace of
Europe. This opinion was entertained by persons who
were not Conservatives, for he heard those who were Whigs
say so ; and a similar feeling influenced many Roman
Catholics, which might account for the support which the
present Government had received from that body.
Mr. J. GURNEY said ho had been absent from the
house last year when the Conspiracy Bill was under con-
sideration, and he then paired in favour of it, feeling that
France was justified at the time in asking for such a mea-
sure. He must frankly confess that he did not think a
case had been made out against the present Government.
(Ministerial cheers.) As regarded the Reform Bill brought
in by the present Government, he thought, had it gone
before a committee, it might have been made a good bill,
attd he thought the Goverement might be able to bring in
a Reform Bill which would be acceptable in the next
session. (Ministerial cheers.) As to foreign affairs, he
thought the Government had carried out the sense of the
country by acting on the principle of neutrality, and that
they had adopted the fitting means for placing the country
in a proper state of defence. (Renewed Ministerial cheers.)
Though these necessary defences might cause considerable
expense, he did not think it was an expense which the
country would grudge, and that such preparation could
not give offence to any foreign Power. He therefore in-
tended, in his sense of his public duty, to vote against the
amendment. (Ministerial cheers.)
Mr. CROSSLEY said, when the change of Ministers
was made, and the present Government came into office,
and they were required to state their sentiments upon
theciduuegritniogutohfe irteecfeos7ththey would
e as
considerer°e' fthG°
thveerunmartenrt, waasnd
that
would be prepared to bring in such a bill as would meet the
wishes of the country. He found, however, when they did
introduco their Reform Bill, that it altogether failed to
meet the necessities of the country. (Opposition cheers.)
Now, he did not approve of a bill being read a second time
unless it was of a kind which would meet the requirements
, of the house ; and when a bill went into committee which
was not of a satisfactory character, there were frequently
difficulties in getting clauses which were objectionable so
altered as to make them of a satisfactory character. It was
perfectly useless in this house waiting for nine months
longer in the hope of any measure of Reform being brought
in by the present Government, as had been intimated,
especially as that Government was composed of men who
had always been opposed to Reform, and who, during the
last general election, were everywhere endeavouring to dis-
place reformers. (Hear, hear.) With regard to a new
Government, he thought there should be a combination of
every shade of liberal opinions in the new Government, and
he was satisfied, if such a Government should be formed of
,men of talent, they would be able to bring in a Reform Bill
which would give satisfaction, and that they would be able
to prevent this country drifting into war. (Opposition
cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER said he rose merely to answer the lion.
member for Montrose. There was a distinct declaration
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there was no
compact with the Pope or with Cardinal Wiseman, and
after that statement, he wondered that any hon. member
should repeat that electioneering fabrication. Hon. gentle-
men opposite looked at the expense laid out upon our de-
fences as an indication of an intention of going to war, but
for his part he looked upon it as the best preservative
against a war.

v~I
r. HQItSMAN looked upon the issued of this debate as
a very serious one. An appeal had been made to the
country for the purpose of ascertaining which party had
the confidence of the country. That question would be de-
cided by the pending division, and the majority, on what-
ever side it was, would decide the fate of the Government.
It was against constitutional principles that a minority
should govern the country. With regard to the war, he
believed that the policy of the Government, whether com-
posed of ono party or the other, would be to abstain from
war. The diplomatic transactions of the last few months,
would form a most important chapter in history. It would
be one of their first duties to ascertain how the Government
had conducted these negotiations in the interests of pooe,
It was said the oNvorsmont had been grossly dyeeived, and
they 41010 inquire whether, if
trilwarsutee; itowraswing
to the weakness and MthilitY the whether
they bad been deceived, like other Governments, by a cm,
spiracy to disturb the peace of Europe. He tllongto that
upon the decision of that luestign •tty, 1. jr

stand or fall. The Ministry most competent to the admi-
nistration of international affairs should be in office. The
state of affairs was most critical. The most matured expe-
rience should have the management of the present perilous
crisis in our history. But he had objected to this amend-
ment because he thought their fate should be decided upon
their conduct of the foreign policy of the ceuntry. But
they could riot arrive at a fair decision upon that till the
papers were upon the table of the house. He had made no
secret of his opinion. They should have in their hands the
evidence upon which to found their judgment before con-
demning the Ministry. (Hear.) If they had appealed to
the house for forbearance on that ground, he should have
supported them. But they had not done so. The OpPe"
sition had adopted a most manly course, and they had
rested their claim to office upon the confidence of the
house. That challenge had been accepted by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. There was a common agree-
ment that the opinion of the constituencies should de-
cide the question. All who were returned for Lord
Derby would vote for him, and those returned for the
Liberals would go into the opposite lobby, and as he was
returned with an unfavourable answer to Lord Derby's
appeal by his constituents he had no alternative but to vote
for the amendment.

Mr. K. SEY NIER in opposing the amendment of the noble
'ord, felt constrained to repeat what had already been said,
that there could be no ground of complaint against the noble
lord for bringing forward that amendment. (Hear.) The
Government appealed to the country, and by the result of
that appeal they were content to abide. He did not see how
they could have taken the course recommended by the right
hon. gentleman who had just spoken, for when a vote of
general want of confidence was moved how could they select
one single point—that of their foreign policy—and ask the
house to wait till they had read the papers ? He would ask
the right hon. gentleman, who seemed to have been looking
out for an opportunity to support the Government, but had
not been able to find it, what other course the Government
could have taken ? He thought gentlemen opposite might
well hesitate before they formally expressed want of confi-
dence in the Government, unless they could see their velar
to the formation of a strong and lasting Government
(Hear.) Before going into the question of the difficulties,
that stood in the way of forming a Liberal Government,
he would notice some observations of the noble lard
the member for Tiverton as to the circumstances con-
nected with the formation of the present Government. The
noble lord (Palmerston) twitted the Conservative party
with having in the first instance supported the CovaspiracY
to Murder Bill, and afterwards going against it. But what
were the circumstances? He (Mr. Seymer) recollected the
right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Rxchequer, not
liking to take the unusual course of opposing a bill brought
in by the Government of the day in its wily first stage, said
he would vote for its introduction, but expressly guarded
himself, at the same time, against being understood by that
act to give the measure a future support. (Hear.) On the
contrary, the right hon. gentleman stated that the measure
was one which did not meet with his unqualified approba-
tion, and that the noble lord at the head of the Government
should have sent a spirited reply to the demand of Count
Walewski, such as Mr. Canning would have written. (Heart
hear.) And then the right hon. gentleman the member for
Ashton took advantage of that speech of the right hon. gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and framed *
motion which the Conservative party, with the opinio
they entertained on the subject, had no alternative but to
support. (Hear.) That was the true history of the transac-
tion, which had not been quite fairly represented by the
noble lord the member for Tiverton. They all knew the re-
sult of that motion. A Government was formed by Lsrd,,,
Derby, but not certainly after any eagerness on his Part ‘"
seize the reins of power ; and the first act of that Govern-
meat was to establish friendly relations with our nearest
ally and powerful neighbour, the Emperor of the French.
Their next step was to procure the release from prison of
the English subjects who had been so cruelly treated by the
Neapolitan Government, and whose case had been rather
prejudiced than aided by the preceding Government. (Hear,
hear.) They then brought forward their India Bill, which
was not very fairly received by the house and the country
Hon. gentlemen opposite had better not say much about the
country. He did not think the country would easily forget the
assault made upon the Government by what *as called the
Cardwell resolution—(a laugh)—for of all the attacks made
on a Government within his recollection, he never knew one
which ended in so ignominious a failure. (Hear.) When
the noble lord the member for Tiverton talked about the
forbearance shown on his side of the house towards the
Government, he (Mr. Seymer) denied that there had been
any forbearance manifested in that quarter. (Cheers.) On
the contrary, the Government was not well in office until an.
attempt was made by the Opposition to eject them from
power, which, however, so completely miscarried that it
could not be repeated in the same session. Was that for-
bearance ? (Hear.) The Government then sought to deal
with the question of church rates ; and the bill of his right
hon. friend the member for Cambridge University received
a generous support from the Conservative side of the house,
and might have ended in a fair settlement of the question,
but it was opposed by those members who, while willing
to relieve the Dissenters, were not willing to abolish church
rates in those places where they were collected without dif-
ficulty under the existing law. No doubt a 'Government
in a minority were open to have a measure relatingte church
rates rejected in that way; but the fault lay with hon. gen-
tlemen opposite, who ought to have settled the question
long ago, and who, not having settled it, should have as-
sisted,the Government in doing so. (Cheers.) The same
course was pursued in the case of the Reform Bill.' The
Government not having a majority were met in an unusual
way by the motion of the noble lord the member for the City
of London, who, taking one or two provisions of the measure
which happened to be unpopular, insisted on taking the
sense of the house upon them before it had been read a
second time. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member
for Tiverton seemed disposed to support the bill, or, at all
events, to allow it to be read a second time. He thought
the noble lord said as much, but it was defeated by the
ingenious device of the noble lord the member for the
City. The recent history of the Liberal party was ex-
ceedingly instructive. It was a singular fact that all
the recent instances of the breaking up of Liberal Go'
vernments had proceeded from the Liberal 'side of the
house. (A laugh.) He would refer to an instance just be-
fore the first formation of Lord Derby's Government. The
carrying of a verbal amendment moved by the noble lord
the member for Tiverton in the Militia Bill, in a very thin
house, was so resented by the noble lord the member for the.
city of London that he immediately gave up the charge of
the measure. The next case in which a Liberal Government
was broken up by one of their own party occurred durin4
the war with Russia, at the instance of the hon. and learnet
member for Sheffield, when he moved for a committee of
inquiry into the origin of the calamities and sufferings of
the army in the Crimea. In another instance an attack on Is
Liberal Government emanating from the Liberal party as-
sumed the form of a "round-robin" addressed to the noble
lord the member for the city of London, suggesting that he
ought to resign, and resign he did. (A laugh.) Then there
was the attack made upon the Government of the day on
the question of the China war, and proceeding from another
member of the Liberal party. He (Mr. Seymer) voted with
majority on that occasion, and he never gave a vote with
greater satisfaction in his life. He complained that, in the
appeal to tho country which followed, the noble lord the
-member for Tiverton, in his address to his constituents, ae•
tually sought to induce the country to believe that the Con-
servative party were the abettors of the atrocities perpetrated
during the China war. (Hear.) The noble lord by means
such as that obtained a large majority, but the triumph was
of short duration, for he was ousted from office on the ques"
tion of the Conspiracy Bill. It was said that the great Libe-
ral party was now united. He (Mr. Seymer) took leave to
doubt it. He did not believe it, because there were questions
on which the country called for a decision, and with respect
to which there were most decided differences of opinion among
hon. members opposite. He would refer to one or two of
them. The question of reform was not 'one on which they
could act ix common. There was the ballot, a vital question.
That was not a matter of detail, and it was a questionwhich
he did not see the possibility of the united Liberal party
settling satisfactorily. The noble lord the member for the
city of London might be squeezable on this point. (A.
laugh.) The right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle
was, he suspected, half squeezed already. But the noble
lord the member for Tiverton was staunch. He had made
many excellent and manly speeches against the ballot. It
would not do to say that the ballot was to be an o_pen ques-
tion. How could it remain an open question with hen, gen-
tlemen opposite who maintained that an extension of the
franchise without the ballot would be worse than nothings
and only place the unfortunate labourer in a more &Taw
dent position than the present constituency ? (Loud cheers.)
The speech of the noble lord on the hustings at Tiverton
must be unsatisfactory to the advanced Liberals on the
question of Reform, as they must have expected a good Re"
form programme from the noble lord. He held in hand a
report of the noble lord's speech, revised by him, which was
published "price 4d.," and, to tell the truth, it was rather
dear at the money. (A laugh.) He never read a more
meagre programme. The noble lord said he thought there
ought to be a lowering of the county franchise, and the
borough franchise, some transfer of seats—there was some
transfer of seats he believed in the Government
(" No," and hear)—and such an extension of the suffrage
as would not swamp the present constituencies, who had
exercised the franchise in a manner that had conferred
honour upon themselves, and been attended with advantage
to the country. (Cheers.) There was nothing in that te
"
which hon. members sitting on his side of the house could a
not subscribe. (Hear, hear.) But there was a groat
in it inconsistent with the views of the hon. member for
Birmingham. He held in his hands a revised edition of the
speech of the hon. gentleman, which was published at lsz
and which' was betterworth ls., lie thought, than the apes"'
of the noble lord was worth 4d. (A laugh.) The hen'
member for Birmingham put forth a schedule of disfrarr
chisement and the redistribution of seats. Would such
scheme be adopted by the united Liberal party ? He
peoted that a very small schedule of disfranchiserat
would be satisfactory to the noble lord the member
Tiverton. (Hear.) The hon. member for Birminghatn.*r t
in one of his speeches that hereditary legislation collie not
be a permanent institution in a free country. (Cheers: and
..
cries of " Read on.") The hon. gentleman went on t
that, -at all events, it would require extensive modification,
and that last session the Queen proposed a system
peerages. (Cheers.) But that was a legal arranger_n:
intended to increase the number of law lords in the Ups
House, and could not justify the hon. gentleman sa
that a House of Peers ooula not be a permanent ininstituyA
in a free country, (Hear, hear.) They might be toldr that
this was a harmless theory. But the hon. member foeo-Tf:
mingham was not the man to hold opinions as mere th rls_!,
Ills opinions were not held for the closet. There was
doubt he meant what ho said, and that he would elidesv ese•
to give effect to his opinions as soon as he could.
Mr. BRIGHT begged to say that if the hon. g nuer7,l
would read the speech he delivered at Glasgow he ve
find that the statement he had just made was entirely In
correct. (Cheers.)
11lr.
laughter)—heK.
SEYMER
begged pardon, the hon. gentleman--;
not know what the noble lord--
(toadmeant. He had read to the house an authorised report of
what the hon. gentleman said at Manchester. The hon.
as
gentleman appeared to have qualified his statement, _
he
had qualified many others. (Cheers.) He wanted to know,
and the house would want to know, how the united 'Aber
party intended to act with regard to principles which the
hon. gentleman clearly did not intend to lie dormant, Dw.
which sae
how would endeavour to act upon. He did not o°_.
how the united Liberal party were to deal with the itlrei
tion of ehurch-rates. The noble lord (J. Russell) obje T.T!
to the bill of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole),
cause it gave up the principle of an Established Church;
while some hon. gentlemen opposite wanted to liberate th,
State from any connexion with the Church. These were_
questions that pressed for a solution, yet upon which_e
hon, gentlemen opposite entertained irreconcilable the!
rences. (Hear hear,)
must rely
.upon the support hear,) It was clear that a urt Government
formed of such elementsufthe
the gangway on its own side. Another t
a he . mem-
question was the arming of the country.
militia and the riflemen,
Consernative side of the house against those who
hon
hoismaput below
ber (Mr. Bright) laughed at the
and his especial charge egainat the QeYsilinieut
was
that

They were arming the country. That was just the point
upon which the policy of the Government-was most pops
tar—(hear, hear, and cheers)—and any Government that
expected to have the support of the people of England must
maintain the coast defences, arm the people, and especially
must maintain an efficient navy. (Cheers.) The noble
lord the member for Tiverton once gave a description of
the views of the hon. member for Northampton on war.
He said that if the French came here the hon. member foi
Northampton contended that we ought not to oppose them,
but invite them to tea—(a laugh)— and then tell them over
the urn that they had done wrong to coming here, and that
they ought to go back again. (A laugh.) The hon. mem-
ber for Northampton was one of the Liberal united party,
and how could that hon. gentleman consistently support a
Government that was arming the country?
Mr. GILPIN said he was sure the hon. gentleman would
not willingly misrepresent him. Immediately after the
statement made by the noble viscount, he published a let-
ter in the Times, stating that he was not the author of the
pamphlet from which the noble lord quoted, and that he
had no more to do with the principles of that pamphlet than
the noble lord himself. Since that the author had published
his name. He was a merchant in the city. He had nothing
whatever to do with the principles set forth in that pam-
phlet. (Cheers.)
Mr. K. SEYMER said that if he had misrepresented
the hon. gentleman it was quite unintentional. (Hear.)
He begged, however, to ask the hon. member for Birming-
ham whether he still retained the opinion he had expressed
that the large military establishments of the country were
merely a system of out-door relief for the aristocracy ? Did
the hon. gentleman think that the military establishments
which the Government believed and which the country
believed to be necessary were only kept up for the purpose of
benefiting the aristocracy? (Hear.) If he did think so, he
could, cecourse, act upon that opinion, and then how could
he be expected to arm the country for defence ? (Hear,
hear.) The noble lord the member for Tiverton had said
that the Government were mistaken in supposing that ag-
gression had come from either France or Sardinia, and that,
in fact, it was Austria that had commenced the war. He
(Mr. Seymer) thought the less said upon that point the
better, for in 1848 the noble lord had gone up to the last
moment lecturing Austria upon the impropriety of attack-
ing Sardinia, until at last Sardinia chose to attack Austria.
The Government were not mistaken in the present instance
as, although Austria had apparently taken the initiative, no
one who knew anything of the state of Northern Italy
could have the least doubt that Piedmont intended to make
war upon Austria. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord also said
the Government could not prevent hostilities because they
had not a Parliamentary majority to give them weight in
European councils ; but would the course suggested by the
noble lord have improved the case ? He told the Govern-
ment not to resign, but to accept his bills, to do his bidding,
.and by discrediting themselves they might succeed in their
foreign policy. (Hear, hear.) The Government, however,
thought otherwise, they thought it better to try and im-
prove their Parliamentary position, and they had done so.
(Hear.) The noble lord accused those who sat opposite to
him of being favourable to Austria. As an independent
member, he (Mr. Seymer) declared he had no sympathy
With Austria. He did sympathise with the Italians, but not
wiffh the French and Sardinians attacking Austria. (Hear.)
He distrusted the interference of a despotic power in favour
of liberty—(hear, hear)—the first consequence of which had
been the suspension of liberty in Sardinia. He admitted
that he did not understand the question of nationalities,
although he did understand the question of constitutional
iiberity. If the question of nationalities were raised, thore
was no knowing how soon our own turn-might come. The
lonian Islands were not easy under our protectorate,
and Russia, which had more pretensions to interfere for
Greeks than France had to interfere for Ifalians, might
claim a right to attach us. He did distrust France as a pro-
tector of-Italian liberty. Who had put down the Roman
Republic—who kept down liberty now in Rome ? Was it
not France ? (Hear, hear.) In saying that he had no sym-
pathy with Austria he must observe that this country had no
cause of apprehension from that Power. If she had overrun
Piedniont and (which God forbid) even if she had annexed
that country, England would not have added a frigate to her
navy, or a battalion to her army. But it was not the same in-
the case of other Powers, and the instinctive feeling of this
country was evinced by the feeling which now generally
prevailed that we should take every precaution to render
ourselves unassailable. When it was said that we ought not
to increase our Mediterranean fleet, he would observe that
we had to protect Malta, Gibraltar, and the lonian Islands,
which were a part of our empire. (Hear, hear.) He must
say he thought the Government had taken a wise course in
arming the country and in maintaining a strict neutrality,
and, believing that the Liberal party were not united enough
to carry out their own principles, while the Conservative
party was united and the strongest in Parliament, he should
give his decided opposition to the amendment. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM then rose, and was received with cheers
and counter cheers. He said—l don't rise to enhance the
value of the reported speech of the noble viscount the mem-
ber for Tiverton, much less to depreciate the value of the re-
ported speeches of the hon. member for Birmingham. I shall
not now follow the hon. gentleman' who has just sat down
into a historical sketch of the decline and fall, as he thinks,
.of the great Liberal party, neither shall I speculate upon
the prophecies in which he has indulged as to its future po-
licy. I find the question before us to be this—Shall the
Government which the hon. member for Dorset supports
continue in the possession of power with the consent of a
majority of this house ? (Hear, hear.) That is the issue to
be decided, and to that issue I will endeavour to address
the few observations which I have to offer to the
House. Now, I am placed in a somewhat painful position.
(Ironical cheers.) I have been driven from the seat which
by the forbearance, or, indeed, grace of hon. gentlemen oppo •
site I have some time occupied in this house, and having
_been received upon these benches—(ironical cheers and
counter-cheers)—hon. gentlemen opposite cheer because
pain has been inflicted upon an humble individual—
(laughter) but I do not believe that sound of
triumph augurs _._an ultimate victory—(hear, hear)—
having been received upon these benches, I am not
permitted to give a silent vote. ' I would gladly have
given a silent vote, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the leader of the party opposite, has thought fit to indulge
in observations which rendersilence on my part impossible.
(Hear, hear.) Now, that right hon. gentleman occupies the
proud position of leader of this house, and, being so, is at
the head of the largest and most respected body of gentle-
men in this country. I may be mistaken, but I have al-
ways believed that among gentlemen there was an esta-
blished rule—(laughter and counter-cheers)—what, sir
has it come to-this ? After such an attack has been made
upon me by the right hon. gentleman opposite, am I not to
be allowed to offer any explanation to the house ? (Cheers.)
I cannot believe that is a course which will be sanctioned,
even by a new House of Commons. (Renewed cheers.)
I was saying, sir, that where an error has been committed
-and an explanation has been asked for, and when there has
been an admission of error, an apology for error, the expres-
sion of regret, and when that expression of regret has been
allowed.to be published, I thought there was an established
rule among gentlemen that the subject should not again be
revived. (Loud Opposition cheers.) But it seems that I
was in mayor, for the leader of the house has thought fit to
revive this subject. (Cheers.) I should be sorry, indeed,
if this debate upon a question involving the policy and the
interests of a great nation were allowed to grovel in the
ground, and to be degraded into a mere question of person-
ality, instead of being elevated to those higher regions
where such important subjects ought to be discussed ; but,
since that topic, upon which I gave an explanation in an-
swer to the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for
War, has been revived, I may be permitted to say that I
adhere to the statement which my answer contained, that,
although I was decidedly wrong in saying that the altera-
tion in the amount of billet money was made by an act of
prerogative, Parliament not sitting, yet I adhere to the
statement that it was proclaimed on the eve of a general
election—(shouts of " Oh, oh I" from the Ministerial side,
met by Opposition cheers), and that the alteration was used
for election purposes—(cheers)—and, however painful it
may be, since the matter has been forced upon the house
by the leader of the house, I will produce my evidence of
the facts. (Retvesved cheers.) The son of the right hon.
Secretary of State fOr War was a candidate for Devonport.
Naturally proud of name which he bears, and of his
connection with the right honourable gentleman, he
avowed himself, in his -first- address at Devonport, to be
the- son of the Secretary of State for • War, and almost
immediately after his first appearance in Devonport as a
candidate there was issued a placard, which I will now read
to the house. (Cries of "Oh I" from the Ministerial
benches, and cheers from the Opposition.) '
"A Fact for the Licensed Victuallers and Beershop-
keepers. (Laughter.) The present Government have taken
care that, from the 25th of April inst., every person upon
whom a soldier is liable to be billeted shall be paid four-
pence per days instead of three half-pence. (Ministerial
cheers.) At a moment like the present, when recruiting is
going. on to a much larger extent than usual, this boon is
one of great consequence—(Ministerial cheers)—and evi-
dences the desire which a good Conservative Government
(loud cheers from the Opposition)—has to remove oppres-
sion and wrong wherever it may be discovered. (Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) Licensed victuallers and
beershop-keepers—(laughter)—will appreciate this boon—
(renewed laughter)—and understand well the difference
between a Conservative fourpence and a Whig three half-
pence."
• (Loud laughter and cheering from the Opposition benches.)
The placard concludes with the motto "Vivat Regina." (A
laugh.) Well, Sir, the right hon. gentleman the Chancel:or
of the Exchequer next referred, I think, to the subject of
the reparation and re-occupation of the barracks at Berwick.
I understand that an election petition from Berwick has
been presented to this house. (Hear.) I have reason, there-
fore, to believe that that matter will be the subject of judi-
cial inquiry, and until the opportunity for such inquiry is
given I shall abstain from further reference to it. (Cheers.)
So also with regard to the packet coatracts at Dover and the
Lever contracts at Galway. The hon. member for Falmouth
(Mr. T. G. Baring) has to-night moved for returns with
respect to the Dover contracts. The noble member for Ti-
verton in his speech on Tuesday night expressed his opi-
nion, in which I moat decidedlyconcur, that these questions
must be submitted to a severe scrutiny, and that scrutiny
I will not anticipate. (Cheers.) The next point, I think, to
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer referred was the
Catholic alliance. Upon that question I may say that
throughout my political life I have, to the utmost of my
power, defended the claims of my Roman Catholic fellow-
subjects to perfect equality of civil and religious rights.
(Cheers.) I have stood by them in circumstances where
many of their former friends failed to support them. (Cheers.)
I did my utmost to prevent the passing of the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill, and 1 have uniformly supported every just de-
mand whtch they could make for the full and free exerciseof
their religion. (Hear, hear.) I certainly did observe with re-
. . gret that, during the late general election, ecclesiastical
power was used, or said to have been used— (Ministerial
. cheers) —to influence Roman Catholic voters against the Li-
beral party, and I think that infinitely more has thus been
done than could have been done by their opponents to injure
their cause. I will say no more about that. I think that
Roman Catholic voters, and even the heads of the Roman
t Catholic Church, have a perfect right to exercise an inde-
pendent judgment upon these subjects, but I must say I was

astonished when I saw that my hon. and learned friend the
member for Dundalk (Mr. BOwyer) was reported to have
declared upon the htistings that the Roinan Catholics had
reason to expect that her Majesty's present advisers would
grant a charter of incorporation to a Roman Catholic univer-
sity in Dublin. Now, Sir, faith will remove mountains—(a
laugh)—but the credulity that could _lead men to suppose
that a charter of incorporation, revised by the right hon.
Attorney-General for Ireland (Mr: Whiteside), the member
for the Protestant University of Dublin—(tsughter and
cheers)—and with the great seal of Ireland appended to it
by the hands of Lord Chancellor Napier-(renewed laughter
and cheers)—would be granted to a Roman Catholic univer-
sity in Dublin, implies a belief in miracles exceeding any-
thing that could be conceived of infantine simplicity. (Cheers
and laughter). But, Sir, the latest charge of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer appears to me the most serious. It refers to
a statement I made that it was reported that a large sum of
money had been collected for election purposes among the
noblemen and gentlemen of the Conservative party, and that
it was boasted that Lord Derby had beaded the subscription
with the large amount of £20,000. Now, this matter has
been dealt with by Lord Derby himself. He has denied the
subscription of £20,000; he has denied the subscription of
£10,000; he has denied the subscription of £5,000; but I do
not see that Lord Derby has denied that ho subscribed even
£2OO. (Cries of " Oh," from the Ministerial side, laughter,
and Opposition cheers). Not only has he not denied his
subscription, but he distinctly admits the existence of a
fund of the description to which I adverted, and a subscrip-
tion to a large amount. Nay, more. With great playful-
ness he said that subscriptions of this nature take place at
every general election, and that the assertion that these
large funds existed had no doubt produced upon some of the
elections an effect very different from what I had antici-
pated. The noble lord was satisfied with giving to these
reports, erroneous in a measure, a contradiction in terms so
courteous that I rejoice in having this public opportunity
of thanking him for the courtesy of his denial. (Loud
Ministerial cheers.) But, sir, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer declared that upon this matter he was the repre-
sentative of Lord Derby, and again reverting to his position
—the highest in this house—l must say, that he indulged,
in his denial, in the use of an expression which during my
long experience in Parliament I have never heard equalled.
(Cheers.) I will say that his denial was couched in terms
so offensive that I am almost ashamed to mention them.
(Renewed cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I rise to
order. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Graham)
quoted a statement made in an anonymous paragraph. In
his speech he referred to the statement as one he had re-
ceived in that manner, and which he did not make upon
his own authority—(cheers)—and that anonymous para-
graph I characterised as an impudent fabrication. (Renewed
cheers.) That paragraph was in my possession, was pub-
lished and circulated in the newspapers before the speech
of the right hon. gentleman. I might have regretted that
the right hon. gentleman should have assumed, even provi-
sionally, the truth of that paragraph, but I certainly never
meant to attribute to his statement the terms which he has
quoted. (Cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM continued—l really, sir, am rather
perplexed as to the course I should adopt with respect to the
explanation now given by the right hon. gentleman. He
said that the statement was "an impudent fabrication."
(Ministerial cheers.) Well, sir, in all my intercourse with
that right hon. gentleman, I am not aware that I have
ever said or done anything which could have given him
reason to offer me personal offence. I could hardly believe
that you, sir, would have permitted the use of such an ex-
pression if it had been clearly applied to a member of this
house. I did not think the rules of this house would have
justified it ; and certainly it was not for me to call the right
hon gentleman to order.
The SPEAKER—I think that, perhaps, if I state, to,the
house the impression which the use of that phrase made
upon my own mind it my terminate this rather painful
discussion. (Hear, hear.) The impression made upon my
mind at the time .(and I distinctly remember the terms em-
ployed)—certainly was that, as the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer has explained, the fabri-
cation in question had been made use ot, but that it had
not originated with the right hon. gentleman the member
for Carlisle. (Cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM—Certainly, sir, what the right hon.
gentleman has said, confirmed by your high and unim-
peachable authority, is some satisfaction to my wounded
feelings. (A laugh and cheers.) But the right hon. gen-
tleman went on to remark upon the mild influences of age,
presenting in his own person u contradiction to the Hora-
tian maxim—