The Sun.
London, England, 1857-06-09 00:00:00

THE OATHS BILL.

Sir F. THESIGER said that he wag anxious, for
the information of the house, to inform them of the
course which he intended to take with regard to the
Oaths Bill. In accordance with the intimation he had
given be had offered no opposition to the second reading
of the bill, but he was apprehensive, from the cheering
which had accompanied the second reading, that there
might be some misapprehension, and he therefore wished
to state that in committee he should move to add to the
oath these words :—" And I make this renunciation,
abjuration, and declaration willingly and truly, on the
true faith of a Christian."
ALDERSHOT.

Sir F. SMITH said, having been second in command
at Aldershot, he was aLxious to show that some of
the statements made the other evening about the en-
campment there were incorrect, and he wrote to Gen.
Knollys, the commander of the camp, who had written
him in reply a statement of the condition of the camp
and of the employment of the troops. The honourable
and gallant officer then proceeded to read extracts from
the letter, to the effect that it was not true that the
troops were not taught to pitch their tents, as they had
been under canvas as long as the weather permitted.
Cooking in the field formed part of the training. A class
of officers were instructed in military sketching, and forts
were constructed on the banks of the canal. All the
roads lately finished had been completed by the soldiers.
With regard to the state of the huts there was only one
hut in the whole camp out of repair.. The whole of the
gravel had been spread by the troops. Then the Barrack
master wrote and said, with reference to the huts, there
was not the least appearance of decay ; they were light,
airy, and wholesome ; there was but one instance of any
of them having given way ; the roofs were water tight,
and would last many years.
The SPEAKER then left the chair, and the house went
into c )mmittee.

The fist vote was 151,744/., to make up the sum of
227,711/. 2d. 9d. for the educational and scientific
branches.

Cu!. NORTH said there were many items in vote No.
12 on which he should be happy to have the opportunity
of addressing the house.

Sir J. RA.-MSDEN said the hon. and gallant officer
would have an opportunity of making any remarks he
might think fit on that vote when the report brought up.
Mr. RICH called attention to the charges made for
youths at the Royal Military College at Sandhurst. A
committee sat on that subject two or three years ago,
and it was stated that the total cost for education there,
including all branches, was 801. a-year. It appeared,
however, that they charged all but the sons of officers
1251. a-year, which, with extra charges, made it 1501.
Ilc thought that was a hardship..
Mr. HENLEY remarked that be had the same objec-
tion to this vote that he stated the other night to No. 12.
The hon. and gallant member for Caine the other night,
after enumerating the various advantages supposed to be
derived from Aldershot, went on to state the disadvan-
tages oar generals laboured uuder compared with French
or Russian generale. He stated that if a Russian or a
French general wanted to wiite a despatch be could ac-
company it with a sketch of the ground, but an English
general had no one about him who could make a sketch.
He (Mr. Henley) could not eay whether that was true ;
but it was stated by a rnibtary man of some reputation,
and if it were true all he (Mr. Henley) had to say was,
that the nation had been expending a great many mil-
lions of money, and had not got their worth for it. So
far as the vote itself welit, he had NO objection to it, but
he thought it would be desirable that things so distinct
as the ordnance survey and the salaries of instructors
should he kept distinct in the votes.
Mr. BLACK bro aght forward the claims of the Scotch
military academy at Edinburgh, which he said had
produced many geed officers who bad served in the Cri•
mea. He thought Government ought to sanction the in-
stitution. Forty :loturnissions were given yearly to Sand-
hurst ; they might grant to the Edinburgh academy one
commission yearly.

Major W.3.RBURTON observed that in every other
country except Ours admission to the staff of the army
was only t,) be obtained by severe competition. In our
country tnere was a remarkable contrast to this state of
things. Out of 216 who bad obtained certificates in tb•
senior •Department at Sandhurst, only 15 were employed
on the staff' during the late war. Appointments to the
staff should be (span to competition among officers of a
certain rank, lie hoped at any rate that they would
wipe away the reproach that in our army idleness might
be int lulged in without remark, and that energy, genius,
and ability met with no reward.
Mr, E. ELLICE, jun., agreed iu the observation that

it was inconvenient to have so many items in one vote,
but at the same time it was not his intention to move
any reduction in the ordnance survey, as he did last
year. His opinion remained the same, but the house did
not agree with him. He believed that Government
was opposed to the expense, but the house backed up
certain members who were interested in that survey.
The house decided last year that they would have a
survey on a scale of 25 inches to the mile. The com-
mittee recommedned a vote of 50,0001. a year for ten
years, but he found the vote Ibis year had been reduced
to 130,0001. He hoped, though it might appear in
opposition to what he had already said, that the survey
would be got on with, in order that they might have an
ordnance survey completed for Scotland some time in
the course of their lives. He had a return, which he had
moved for, showing what had been expended, and what
was going to be. The aggregate was 963,000/ , but the
report of the committee last year put it down at 917,000/ ,
so that there was an increase of 46,0001.1 Then he found
that last year the progress in Scotland was 407,000 acres
out of 20 millions. He warned the house that this survey
would cost enormous sums, and that if they did not mind
they would have what Sir C. Trevelyan aimed at, not
only a survey on the 25. inch scale for Scotland, but also
for England and Ireland. which woul I cost six or seven
millions, and would involve a new department to revise
the surveys every two ye trs.
Sir F. WILLIAMS, referring to some observations
made on a previous evening by Mr. Henley, said there
were no doubt officers in the British army quite able to
make plans. There were always such persons to be found
on the bead Quartermaster• General's staff ; but there
was not attached to our army, as there was to the foreign
services, a topographical corps, who might be detached
with any major-general or brigadier-general, to draw for
him a sort of comprehensive plan, without which no re-
port, whether in writing or by word of mouth, could be
completely intelligible. He (the gallant general) hoped
that in the reconstruction of the staff a corps of this
kind might be formed ; and also that officers intended for
the staff might be expected to pass a year in each branch
of the service, so that they might become practically ac-
quainted with each arm. He agreed, too, with the right
hon. gentleman that soldiers ought to be employed in the
works at Aldershot. Those works were a part of their
businsis, and they ought not to receive extra pay, which
only led to drinking and insubordination. He hoped like-
wise that the soldiers, while in the camp, would be
taught to make gabions and to tie fascines ; that they
would be employed in sapping ; and, in short, that they
would be instructed in all matters relating to field fortifi-
cation. If that were done, he. was perfectly certain that
England would never regret any cost it might entail.
Sir D. NORREYS, returning to the question of the
survey of Scotland, suggested that the debate should be
taken on bringing up the report, and that on that occa-
sion the discussion should be a complete and final one.
Mr. WEGUELIN directed the attention of Govern-
ment to the engraving department of the Ordnance-office
which he said was not in a satisfactory condition.
Sir J. RAMSDEN assented to Sir D. Norrey's pro-
posal. With regard to the education of staff officers, and
indeed, of military officers generally, in field fortification,
be could assure the house that the subject had engaged
the most careful attention of Government. In corrobora-
tion of that remark he might refer to the general order
issued from the Horse Guards some time ago, in which
it was directed that after Jan. 1 next no officers should
be appointed to the staff without passing an examination
with regard to all the branches of the service. At present
an officer went down to Aldershot several days every week
to give instructions to officers in strategy, making re-
connaissances, and things of that nature. He (Sir J.
Rsmsden) was happy to add that more officers were de-
sirous of receiving instruction from that gentleman than
he could receive. (Hear.)
Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped the question would not
be postponed. No time was so suitable as the present,
and the question was one of great importance—a ques-
tion between 250,0001. and above a million of money.
Lord ELCHO, on the other hand, supported the pro-
posal for postponement.

In answer to Mr. WiLunts,
Sir J. RAMSDEN said that nearly the whole of the.
cultivated districts south of the Forth and Ciyde were
now surveyed on the 25-inch scale ; and it was intended
to proceed with the rest of the cultivated districts on
that scale.

Sir H. VERNEY expressed himself strongly against
the unsystematic manner in which the survey of the
country had been carried on. They had been promised
a uniform survey on the 8 inch scale, which would have
served :or all the railways and other great public works.
That plan was rejected, and no less than two millions
and a half had been spent on surveys for the purposes of
the Tithe Commissioners. He protested against the
25-inch scale as unnecessary and extravegant.
Mr. E. ELLICE (St. Andrew's) said the hon. baronet
was in error when he said that all the cultivated districts
south of the Forth had been surveyed on the 25-inch scale.
In point of fact four or five of the most important coun-
ties in the south had been surveyed on the six inch scale;
and
.the work would require to be done over again.
(Hear, hear.)
The LORD-ADVOCATE deprecated the continuance
of the conversation if the subject was really to be dis-
cussed on a future occasion.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE said it argued a great want of
common sense to go on making surveys on a large scale of
districts in Scotland, of which no one wanted maps, to
neglect districts in England of which there would be a
scale of the maps large; enough to remunerate the Go-
♦ernment for their preparation.
Lord ELCHO defended the 25-inch scale, and invited
the house, by way of preparation for the postponed de-
bate, to study the blue books of 1854 and 185 G.
Mr. WYLD recommended that the surveys should be
made a great scientific school for the army. That was
done in foreign services, and the consequence was, that
those services were greatly superior in topographical skill
to our own. During the last war the Government was
actually indebted to the gentlemen who went out to con-
struct the railway for a really good chart of the ground
before Sebastopol. He recommended, therefore, that
officers of the army should be allowed to volunteer to ac
company the surveyors, and that their expenses should
be included in the cost of the work.

Sir F. SMITH could assure the hon. gentleman that
the plan would fail. What was wanted for a work of this
kind was not pupils, but persons of experience.
Sir W. CODRINGTON said that experienced persons
were no doubt required for the public surveys, but that
was no reason why officers should not be allowed to ac
c)ropany them for the purposes of instruction and prac-
tice. The hon. gentleman must be in error as to what be
had stated about Sebastopol. A very accurate plan was
made by an officer of the 23d, then on the Quartermas-
ter-General's staff, and that plan was the foundation of
all that was done. No doubt greater education was de-
sirable, not only in officers of the staff, but in all officers;
but in comparing our service with foreign ones allowance
should be made ter the difference of circumstances. With
us the staff was composed of regimental officers, abroad
the staff was a department separate in every respect
(Hear.) Referring to what bad fallen from Sir F. Wil-
liams, the gallant gent'eman said that a topographic
corps would be an important addition to the army. No
doubt there were very competent persons on the Quar-
termaster-General's staff, but they had other things to
attend to besides mere map-making.
Mr. E WART wished to know when the Government
measures of military education would be brought forward
Mr. WYLD said that it was notorious that our officers
possessed less shill in drawing plans than was found in
the French, Russian, Austrian, and Prussian armies. If
a war were again to break out not a third of our officers
would be able to make a reconnaissance, and to bring
the general a plan of the ground.
General WYNDHAM would admit that our officers
were not so au fait in such matters as were those of
foreign services. Still, during the last war, the best plans
were made by British officers. (Hear.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN said the education of officers had
engaged the most serious attention of the Government.
In the report of the recent commi,sion their first recom-
mendation, and the one on which they laid most stress,
was that a board or council should be appointed to con-
sider the whole question of military education. A coun-
cil had accordingly been appointed, and bad been di-
rected to draw up a scheme. The points on which they
were more particularly requested to give their opinion
were these : first, the examination to which candidates
for their first commission should be subjected ; secondly,
the examination which officers should pass through pre-
vious to promotion up to the grade of captain ; and,
lastly, the qualifications required for the staff. As soon
as the council had drawn up their scheme it would be
submitted to Parliament.

The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to :-
17,3051, rewards for distinguished service, &c.
41,994/ , pay of general officers, not being colonels of
regiments or battalions.
378,7061., full pay of reduced and retired officers.
127,3781., pensions to widows of officers, and allow-
ances on the compassionate list.
39,8631., pensions, gratuities, and allowances to offi-
cers for wounds. On this vote,
Colonel NORTH observed that officers who were seri-
ously wounded, if the wound were not equivalent to the
loss of a limb, were not considered entitled to a pension.
Many had been ob,iged to quit the service on this account.
He hoped that an alteration would be made in this respect.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complained that it was impos•
sible for members to keep pace with the rate at which
these estimates were voted; some of them comprising a
great number of items. It would be bettor if the chair-
man would announce the number of the vote.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST referred to the case of the
wounded officers, and pressed for an answer from the
hen baronet.
Sir J. RAMSDEN said this was a most complicated
question. In regulations of this kind some definite line
must be drawn, and it was not prudent to step over it.
These regulations had been in force for a great number
of years, and could not be altered without reconsidering
the whole system. The suggestion would be considered,
but he could not on the moment promise any alteration.
Sir C. NAPIER said the line laid down was a very
hard line, and the sooner it was altered the better. An
officer might receive a wound which would permanently
affect his health, though he did not lo7e a limb, and yet
he got no pension at all. If these regulations were
formed on those of the navy, they were formed on a
very bad model. (Laughter.) By an order in c.,uncil,
the Queen had power to grant pensions for severe
wounds. The officers of the army had done their duty
well, but they had not been sufficiently cared for. It
an officer got wounded twice in his thigh he got a pen-
sion ; but if he received one wound in each thigh he got
nothing. What could he more absurd than that I
Lord PALMERSTON said it was most desirable that
the Government should have power to grant pensions
in the cases referred to ; but it was most essential that
the regulations should be such as to remove all ground
for suspecting partiality. The loss of a limb was a clear
and defined case ? if they were to go beyond that, it
would be impossible to draw a line which would be
EatWactcry. And why should incapacity from a wound. •

entitle to a pension more than incapacity from disease ?
Besides, an officer serving abroad might, under these
circumstances, be entitled to a pension, which could not
be claimed by an officer at home. He thought that any
alteration would give rise to great dissatisfaction.
Sir C. NAPIE l?, repeated that the Government bad
not acted up to the regulation which empowered her
Majesty to grant pensions in the cases referred to.
After a few words from Colonel NORTH and Lord
A. V. TEMPEST,

Mr. ROEBUCK said the evil arose from a pre-
conceived rule, instead of each case being judged by it-
self. The real question was whether a wound disabled a
man. A man who lost his arm was still fit for service ;
one who was shot in the lungs was not. Surely the lat-
ter was entitled to a pension as well as the former. He
appealed to the patriotism of the house in favour of such
men.

Mr. BRISCOE advocated an alteration of the system.
Lord PALMERSTON said that each case was consi-
dered on its merits, but the merits of each case were
measured by the regulations. Were it otherwise, there
would be sure to be a clamour raised against the decision.
There was no way of deciding these questions but by a
fixed standard. In any case where an officer was so se-
verely wounded as to be unfit for service at home or
abroad, he clnceived that a pension would be granted.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the loss of a limb could
never be equivalent to the loss of the eyes. The rule was
a bad one whieh made the loss of a limb the only condi-
tion of a

Sir W. CODRINGTON said there was a separate
consideration of each case by the medical board, but he
still complained of the rigidity of the rule. The officer
ought to have a discretion and to use it honestly.
Sir C. NAPIER said no change of the law was neces-
sary. All he wanted was to see the regulation carried
out by which her Majesty had reserved to herself the
right of granting pensions in cases where they were
fat to be deserved.

Admiral WALCOTT said the house ought to know
the instructiocs on which the medical board decided on
these eases.

Sir J. RAMSDEN said these regulations were corn-
prised in the War-office regulations, which were in the
hands of every officer.
Mr. ROEBUCK again referred to the case of officers
who lost Weir eyesight, and asked whether the loss of
both legs was considered more than the loss of one ?
Lord PALMERSTON said it was impossible to say
what class of injury was the most severe ; that depended
on circumstances. It was impossible to make a regula-
tion to meet all individual cases.

Lord A. V. TEMPEST said the law of pensions was
now so uncertain that officers did not know whether they
were entitled to a pension or not. He hoped Govern-
ment would promise their early consideration to the
matter.

Sir J. RAMSDEN said that officers who bad been
seriously wounded, but had not lost a limb, received a
year's pay as gratuity. At the end of that time, if the in-
jury continued, it was renewed.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST referred to a case in his own
knowledge, where an officer bad received a year's pay,
but did not know whether it would be continued.

Sir W. CODRINGTON advocated a greater discre-
tionary power being vested in the medical board.
The vote was then agreed to.
20,841/. Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.
Sir C. NAPIER asked whether the major and adju-
tant of Chelsea Hospital received their half-pay in addi-
tion to their salary t
Sir J. RAMSDEN said he was not prepared to answer
the question then, but would make inquiry.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS referred to the large charge for
Kilmainham Hospital, which bad only 142 inmates, and
44 of them were officers of the institution.
Col. NORTH thought, as one-half nearly of our army
was composed of Irishmen, it was not too much that an
asylum should be provided fur them. He believed the
pensioners in Kilmainham were comfortable, and if not
they could leave it.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not say they were uncomfort-
able, but contended that they would be better provided
at half the cost if the money were given to them to live
with their friends.
The vote was agreed to, as were 776,6881. forbout-pen-
sioners, and 83,0001. for superannuation allowances were
also voted to complete the sum required for the year.
On the motion that the resolutions be reported to the
house,
Mr. LOCKE complained of the excess in the charge
for the Hospital at Netley, as compared with the original
estimate. The estimate, as submitted to the House of
Commons was 150,000/. ; and now they were told that
there was an excess of 110,0001., making the total cost
260,0001., for an hospital to accommodate 1,000 persons,
or at the rate of 2601. per man, a sum for which a good
15/. or 201. house might be built. He wished to know
whether it was intended to proceed with this costly
building 1
Sir J. RAMSDEN explained that when it was first
determined to erect the hospital in question a sum was
put down in the estimates for it, estimated upon the
average cost of building such institutions according to
the old plan or at the rate of 1501. a man ; but before
any further steps were taken, a commission of medical
and scientific authorities were consulted, who recom-
mended considerable modifications were necessary. This
increased the expense. When the proposition was ori-
ginally submitted to Parliament these improvements
were not contemplated. Government did intend to pro-
ceed with the construction of the hospital.
Admiral WALCOTT threw out a suggestion that the
ordnance and other warl►ke stores now at Woolwich
ehocld be distributed at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and
other pl tees.
Sir J. TRELAWNY believed that the modern hospi-
tali in Scotland cost at the rate of 401. a man; but here
was a hospital that cost 2601. a man.
Thelmotion was then agreed to, and the house resumed,
the resolutions being ordered to be reported on Thursday.
The resolution payed by theconsmittee of supply on the
army estimates on Friday, was brought up and agreed to.