The Sun.
London, England, 1857-12-08 00:00:00

receive cordial ,support of the Board. To tell the
real truth, however, 2:suspected the quarter
t from whioh
the communication carte, and thought that . lft.hatd got
difficulties enough with Ont engaging in a con
route with
the press. Therefore I tiore
e the abuse as I ld, and,
my only offence was that attar my first three months
word that appeased in
residence in India I never le
the newspapers. (A. laugh.Taheyttrteoateadllomwe inthseumchtao
manner that I was determined
not
d which I knew to
disturb that tranquillity
be essential to carrying onof tmh:
public
some prosecutions
noble earl opposite has spoken. of
mind
business. The
Osecutieue, I
under the Act. There has bees threex
understand, of the newspapers whose e
ses the gentlemen
passing of the Act. In the first two' ca
art of the Crown
Pcersses led td the
who concheeted the prosecution on the p
laced in
on the
came to terens with the persons who ee ere pe rupee da-
dock, and a&'reed to take a verdict w
of
as a verdict for
magas. In the third case also there
insignificant d amages (as we
un I
havetood made no attack
ders. O f Lord
Canning I have said nothing.
upon him. Before
the breaking out of the insurrection
Lord Canning was'ularity, and he succeeded.
personally extremely popular. He
laid himself out to o btain Rep •
Every one did him ta.le
justice to say that he was a con-
scientious hardworking'
man, and I believe, no jobber
—a wonderful merit in
that country—(a laugh)—and
really did all he could to
.nerform the duties of Governor
General. That was the g etieral impression. My own
belief is that no man ever w 'tut out to India with a more
sincere desire to do his duty to the country which he had
to govern ; but there can be no doubt that at the present
moment he has not the confidence either of the people
of Calcutta or of the Europeans g enerally throughout
India. I attribute that to this, tha tbe has attempted
to do that which has failed every,where, wed which
never can succeed—he has attempted to carry on h.
government in spirit opposed to the feeUngs of all .those
on when] he could depend for support.
Earl GREY—I heard the close of the speech delivered
by the noble earl (Ellenborough) a abort time ago with
the greatest pleasure. (Cheers.) He laid down in mast
admirable language the rule which ought to be followed
by the Government and people of this country in their
conduct towards the natives of India in the present un-
fortunate state of affairs. I cordially agree with him in
what he said as to the necessity of severely punishing the
guilty. I agree no less cordially with his opinion of the
equal necessity of discrimination in the infliction of that
punishment. I agree with him, if possible, still more in
what he said as to its being absolutely neceesary, if we
wish our empire in India to continue, that nothing
should be done to forfeit the confidence of the great mass
of the Indian people. It is as clear as daylight that if
it once becomes the opinion of the great body of that
people that the government of their country is carried
on by England for purposes inconsistent with their wel-
fare—if you once create in their minds a feeling that
we regard them with hostility, the days of our power are
numbered. (Hear.) No efforts we can make, no exer-
tions, no army which we can employ, can enable us to
coerce the millions of India if they are really excited
against us. Therefore I heard with great satisfaction
what the noble earl said upon this subject, because I
know that any observations of his will have great force,
not only in this country, but among the natives of India.
But, my lords, great as was the satisfaction with which
I heard this part of the speech of the noble earl, I con-
fess that it did not remove the regret which I felt at his
having brought on this discussion at all. It seems to
me that in the present state of India, looking to the
difficulties with which Lord Canning as Governor-
General has to contend, this great rule is binding upon
ovary man who has the honour of a seat either in this or
in the other House of Parliament—viz., teat we should
not upon any account, by any incautious word which we
may utter in places from which every word that we may
say goes to the farthest extremity of the world, do any-
thing which can diminish the moral power of the man
who is entrusted with the great authority of the Go-
vernor-General of India—(cheers)—and, therefore, that
unless there is a case of clear necessity, even if Lord Can-
ning has made mistakes, we in this house ought not, nor
ought gentleman in the other House of Parliament, to
dwell on those mistakes, or to hold them up in language
which is likely to diminish the confidence which is placed
in him by those whom he has to govern. I say even
when there are real mistakes we ought not to comment
on them, unless there is some great public object to be
gained by exposing them, some great fault in conduct
that ought to be corrected in future, or some amendment
to be accomplished. I say if this is the correct prin-
ciple which ought to govern our conduct, I cannot be-
lieve that the cases which the noble earl (the Earl of
Ellenborougb) has brought forward furnish reasons for
hostie comment, Without entering into an argument
in defence of those measures for checking the sale of
arms which have been pretty well defended already by
my noble friend who spoke last, I cannot help saying
that. on the noble lord's own showing it appears to me
that the Acta in question are not deserving the censure
which he has passed upon them. Can anybody
doubt that, under the circumstances in which India has
been placed, during the last few months, the Govern-
ment ought to have some power of checking the sale of
arms ? (Hear, hear.) It seems to me the very first
thing that ought to have been done. (Cheers.) Is it quite
impossible that there may be Europeans so guilty and so
deserving of the severest condemnation that may be
heaped on them as to be parties to supplying the natives
in rebellion against them with arms ? (Hear, hear.)
Have we never heard that some of the subjects of a
State which was trembling for its existence were base
enough to sell arms to its enemies ? (Hear, hear,) Ha
that not happened in the -United States and Holland 1
Has it not happened even in our own country I (Hear,
hear.) I say such a power of checking the sale of arms
is absolutely indispensable to a Government. I think
in the present state of India it would be in the
highest degree unwise, with respect to the posses.
sion of arms, not to apply the role which puts one
colour against the other. I think the distinction of
colour and of origin is a distinction that must be practi•
tally acted upon in a great degree in a country in
the position of India, (Hear, hear.) Then, with
regard to the Act relating to the press. I think the
noble earl himself made out most conclusively the ne-
cessity for a suspension of the liberty of the press in
India. There is no man who valuss more highly than
I do the liberty of the press, but circumstances may
occur in which we may pay too dearly for the boon. In
India, in such a crisis as the present, I can conceive
nothing more impolitic than to permit the unrestricted
liber,ty of the press to exist. I can conceive a state of
oirCumatances in which it might have bad the effect of
arraying against us those native princes and brave men
in India on whose support we have mainly depended.
But Igo further. I believe that in countries in the
state of India the greatest difficulty and danger we have
had to encounter is that which arises from the disposition
of small minorities, who, finding themselves in a situa-
tion of great peril, and impolitic measures. (Hear,
hear.) We have seen it, formerly in the West Indies
during the slave insurrection, when the great difficulty
was to keep the white people in order and prevent them
from driving the whole coloured popalation into hostility
So it was at the Cape, and so it is in every country
which is in this unfortunate situation. It is the natural
fear whioh small minorities who have been dominant"
have when attacked by a portion of the majority, and
the danger lies in those fears urging them to have re-
course to measures which will combine the whole of the
rest of the population against them. I believe lam not
in error in saying that this state of feeling has of late been
shown very conspicuously among the white inhabitants of
Calcutta. While our countrymen in the East have de-
served the highest credit for the manner in which they
have generally conducted themselves during this trying
season, I am afraid that some at least of the inhabitants of
Calcutta are hardly entitled to the same praise. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot help thinking that there has been a dis-
position among them to urge on the Government mea-
sures which would have been extremely unwise, and
mast have led to very bad effects. I say, therefore,
it is absolutely necessary that the Government should
be armed with very stringent powers in this emer-
gency. It is absolutely necessary to have either a con-
eorsilip or freedom. Whatever may be the inconve-
niences which may follow, it is necessary to adopt one
course or the other ; and I think the Government is
entitled to credit for using this restrictive power over
the press with the minimum amount of inconvenience
I have thought it my duty to make these few observa-
tions, because in this great crisis I think it is of national
importance that we should not fetter the Indian Go-
vernment in the exercise of its discretion, and because I
think that the present Governor-General is fully entitled
to the encomium which my noble friend, who spoke last
has pronounced upon his conduct. (Cheers.)
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he could not too
strongly protest against the attack made by the noble
earl opposite upon his (the Earl of Malmesbnry's) noble
friend (the Earl of Ellenborougb), and against the prin-
ciple which he had laid down that it was a vicious prat
tine to discuss Indian subjects at this time in their lord-
ships' house. (Hear, hear.) If the noble earl really
believed in the impropriety of that practice, he should
have sat down immediately after giving that advice, and
not have gone on violating his own suggestion. There
was a contradiction between the noble earl's advice and
big conduct. But, be that as it might, he (the Earl of
lialmeabury) thought they should really be abdicating
their duties, and forgetting all the purposes for which
their lordships' house existed, if in such a momentous
Irs ieis as this they were to be content, at the bidding
Ofthe noble earl, to sit there with their mouths closed
until
toileothrz Government gave them permission to speak.
havoy The noble earl could not have chosen a more
?sari oftoo isinent for making his suggestion ; for he (the
that if the esbury) w s there to express his belief
advice tendered by his nobl • friend (the Earl
of Zlleee,orou
of the unfortunate circumstances ago had been followed many I
have
eirocumstances they had now to de-
plore wouki not h
the rebellion would harad, and much of the fury cf
fire, it was the duty of the/ abated. He felt, there-
discharging that duty they
werlordships, and that in
country, to discuss these matteresdosicg service to the
could, and without party feeling •oremperately if they
kind. But they were certainly not ejer.eijudice of any
the circumstances of the case to abdicate otZebiry any
of
tutienal functions and keep silence ort such occasions, He thought the noble earl misunderatoOrZ.
(Lord Maltnesbury's) noble friend (the Earl of Ellen!.
•boreugh) in one respect. What his noble friend said;
Wits- that he objected to putting the rebellious Indianti
on the same footing as the loyal Europeans. (Hear.)
They were antagonists and fighting for their very ex.t
'etence and what astonished the people of this country
was Visa% the Governor-General for some reason which ,
,
he had not • me I Lord C THE ADDRESS.
foot explained, put the bellierents on the same A.STLEROSSE
mg- Re was intend• to discuss the question most gracious answer
in brought up her Majesty's
"'nether nativesto the address It stated• "I
and Europeans were to be placed on have received With satisf- '—
the same looting,• I address. It is action your loyal d and u altho correct) athered the fu muchyearne •
ugh if h correc
meaning of the noble e goperate in measures which t desire at all times to cc-
prove earl's observations, that was the end to • Improve the state of

Bentinck was sent to Rangoon to fetch her Majesty's
84th Regiment, In the meantime a military court of
inquiry into the conduct of the 12th Regiment was held,
and as soon as the Court bad concluded its labours and
presented its report and the European troops in the
station had been reinforced, Lord Canning came to ,the
conclusion that it was neeessary to disband the regi-
ment which had mutinied. Then a charge had been
made against Lord Canning that disbandment was
toe lenient a punishment for the offence, but what
other sentence he could have passed upon a
whole regiment it was difficult to discover, unless,
indeed, Lord Canning had resorted to the same severe
measures which at Meerut originated the more fatal
portion of the recent outbreak. The whole experience
of the mutiny had shown that the Governor-General was
justified in the course he adopted. The mutiny of the
34th was a more serious affair. The men of that regiment
allowed their officers to be attacked, and in some cases
actually a-sisted in those attacks. In that case the in-
terval which elapsed between the occurrence of the out-
break and the disbandment of the regiment was occupied
by a military inquiry, which was completed on the 18th
of April, the mutiny having taken place on the 29th of
March. When the court-martial sent in its finding
nothing conid be more embarrassing than the position in
which it placed the Governor-General, for it found one
part of the regiment to be guilty and acquitted the other
portion. Now, the most important of the misstatements
which were made in the pamphlet to which their lord-
ships' attention had been drawn was that which attri-
buted the resolution which had been taken by Lord
Canning relative is the disbandment of the 34th
Regiment to the example which had been set him by the
energetic conduct which had been displayed by Sir H.
Lawrence at Luoknow. Now, the fact was that the
minute of Lord Canning in reference to the matter had
been issued on the 30th of April, whereas the mutiny at
Lucknow had not taken place until the 3d of May. Tbat
circumstance afforded, he thought, a satisfactory answer
to the charge that Lord Canning had been stimulated by
the example of Sir H. Lawrence in the adoption of the
course which he hal pursued. The facts of the case
went clearly to establish that Lord Canning actually
took those measures to which Sir H. Lawrence had only
threatened to have recourse, and that so far from its
having been his opinion that the former had acted too
harshly in dealing with the regiments which bad
mutinied at Lucknow he had, upon the contrary,
found fault with him for being too lenient, and he
had therefore, he thought, laid before their lord-
ships grounds sufficient to prove that the state-
ments contained in the red pamphlet were
utterly erroneous, and that the inferences which were
drawn from them were based upon a total misconception
of the facts of the case. (Hear, hear.)
Earl GRANVILLE then rose and said he was sure
it would be satisfactory to their lordships to know at
the earliest possible moment that a telegraphic despatch
had just been received from India. The substance of
that despatch he was happy to have in his power at once
to communicate to their lordships. The noble earl then
proceeded to read to their lordships one or two para-
graphs from the despatch, announcing the safe arrival of
a convoy of provisions at Lucknow, and the fact that
troops were being moved up quickly to its relief. (Hear.)
The Earl of DERBY said that so far ai the intel:i-
-! genes went it could not bat be satisfactory to their
lordships ; but he might at the same time observe that
he bad hoped from the haste with which the noble earl
had zisen to communicate the intelligence to the house,
that he was in a position to announce the complete relief
of the garrison of Lucknow. His object in again addres-
sing their lordships was, however, not so much to offer
any comment upon the despatch as to state, in reply to
the remarks which had just fallen from the nohle duke
opposite, that he by no means proposed to defend every
statement which was made in the red pamphlet, while
he was prepared to maintain that considerable and culp-
able delay had taken place with reference to the dis-
bandment of the 19th Regiment. He had not complained
of the penalty which had been inflicted upon that regi-
ment as inadequate. The troopsof which it was composed
had been guilty of a simple refusal to discharge their
duties, for which refusal they had afterwards expressed
considerable regret. But the conduct of the soldiers of
the 34th had been of a much more heinous character,
and yet the punishment awarded to both regiments had
been precisely the same.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked at what date
it had bean proposed to send back the 84th Regiment to
Rangoon.

The Duke of ARGYLL wa3 understood to say that
;he proposal was made on the Bth of May.

CASE OF MR. THOMAS.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved fora return
of the appointments held by Mr. Thomas in the civil
service of the East India Company la the month of Sept.,
1854, and of the appointments he may hold up to the
date of the latest accounts, distinguishing judicial from
any other offices ; also, copies of any correspondence
that may have taken place between the Governor or
other superior authorities at Madras and Mr. Thomas
relative to the case of " Bhawanny Lallah v. Thomas,"
and the judgment delivered thereupon in the Supreme
Court of Madras by Chief Justice Sir Christopher
Rawlineon ; and also, copies of any correspondence that
may have taken place between the Home Government
and the Government of Madras upon the same case.
The motion wai agreed to.

Their lordships adjourned at a quarter to 8 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTIMDAY.)
The SPEAK= took the chair at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. Russell took the oaths and his seat for Tavistock,

NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a new writ was or-
dered for the borough of Scarborough, in the room of
Earl Mu!grave, who has accepted the office of steward
or bailiff of Hempholme.
EAST INDIA REVENUE.
Mr. ARTHUR MILLS moved for a return of tho
revenue derived annually from all sources of taxation in
India, from 1852.53 to 1855 56 (in continuation of
Parliamentary paper, No. 336, of session 1855).—
Agreed to.

HOPS.
Mr. J. LOCKE moved for accounts of the total num-
ber of acres of land in the United Kingdom under the
cultivaticn of Hops in the year 1857 ; distinguishing the
number of acres in each parish ; and the number of
pounds' weight charged with duty in each collection ;
and the number of pounds' weight charged with duty
in each parish of the Canterbury and Rochester collections.
And of the amount of duty charged on hops in each
collection of the growth of the year 1857; distinguishing
the districts, and the old from the new duty in each dis-
trict ; showing the average amount of duty per acre in
each collection (in continuation of Parliamentary paper,
No. 19, of session 2, 1857.)—Agreed to.

JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (IRELAND.)
Mr. CAIRNS moved for copies of a letter recent'y
addressed by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to the Lord
Lieutenant of the county Down, relative to the appoint-
ment of justices of the peace ; and of any similar letters
addressed to other Lords Lieutenants of counties in
Ireland.—Agreed to.

tendency of his opinion. But we being in the minority
in India, and the natives being in an enormous majority,
if to the advantage of superior numbers we conferred
upon them all the advantages which the laws conferred
upon Europeans the natural result would be a speedy
termination to our rule. However, upon the present
occasion he only desired to repeat his protest against the
declaration of the noble earl, which was not borne out
by his own conduct nor by that of his great ancestor
during the French war.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE concurred entirely
in the views expressed by the President of the Council
and of the noble earl below him (Earl Grey), and only
wished to correct a mistake into which the noble earl
who spoke last had fallen. He (the Marquis Clanri-
czde) had never objected to the discussion of any event
or poL;tical question, neither had his noble friend (Earl
Grey), c, hat he had said and what his noble friend had
also said was, that it was not the duty of any member
of Parliament or public man to weaken the authority of
the Government in India when that authority was
placed in circumstances of extreme difficulty and
danger, while at the same time it was intended to con-
tinue the government of that country in the same hands.
To that opinion he still adhered. He objected to send-
ing out to the Indian world the idea that the public
of this country were dissatisfied with the conduct of those
who were intrusted s ith the management of public affairs
in India, and yet intended to leave those affairs to be
administered by the same hands.
The Duke of ARGYLL was desirous of referring to a
statement which had been made by the noble earl op-

posite (Lord Derby) with reference to the disbandment
•f two regiments, the 19th and 34th, and about which
there appeared to have been misapprehensions. The
conduct of Lord Canning in reference to that affair had
been severely commented upon both in the speech of the
noble earl and in the pamphlet he had referred to, and
it was alleged that the interval which elapsed between
the mutinies and the orders of disbandment were the
col:sequences of the Governor-General's hesitation and
vacillation. Now, the facts were these. The mutiny of
the 19th Regiment took place on the 26th or 27th of
February. It was a momentary panic, which almost
immediately passed away. There had been grave mis-
conduct on the part of the officer who commanded, and
in the interval which elapsed before the disbandment the
officers and men of the regiment expressed great regret
and repentance. That interval, however, was not owing
to any vacillation or hesitation on the p-irt of the Go-
vernor-General, but to the fact that at the moment there
was but one European regiment within 400 miles of the
station, and Lord Canning could not have taken serious
measures without previously obtaining reinforcements.
Within four or five days after hearing of the mutiny the
_ .