The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-19 00:00:00

•ffered them, it would not be felt to be so great a hard-
ship in war. When he clinmanded the Baltic fleet he
found that, hut for the ceast-guar d and the riggers from
the docks, that fleet could not have gone to sea. Now that
the coast-guard was under the Admiralty he trusted there
would be no Treasury jobbing, and that men would
no longer be appointed because a member of Parlia-
ment asked the appointment; and he hoped the men
would be compelled to go to sea and not suffered to rust
their legs off ashore. He wished the house to reflect vc hat
the consequences would have been during the war with
Russia if France had been oppesed to us. Russia ha•l no
screw fleet, but France has, and Russia was now getting
a screw fleet also. But would it be believed that we had
only 4,000 able seamen left after deducting officers and
marines and boys ? The Admiralty said the ab °seamen
were now'lling to leave tee eI r ice. He sincerely hoped
that that was the case; but be must say, after talking
with sailors only the other day, that he found the service
was very unpopular among them. The men thought 10
years too long a period ; but he could not approve of
the system of entering them for five years, and then
paying them off at the end of three ; he would keep
them the five years out, and longer if they would remain.
But the present practice was pursued in order to give
the Admiralty more patronage. He would ❑ot deny
them patronage —he would have them remove a
captain and a lieutenant now and then ; it was good for
them, and gave them all the opportunity of active life,
and of getting acquainted with their profession. The
gallant officer then complained of the system of reserved
admirals, which had the effect of throwing young men
out of employment, whilst older men were doing the
duty. The Admiralty would do what was right if they
placed the acting admirals on the reserved list, and called
out the present reserved admirals. (Laughter.) He then
attempted to go through the list of acting, retired, re-
served, and pensioned admirals ; but, failing in the at-
tempt, he admitted it was so complicated an affair as to
baffle his comprehension. Instead of reducing the num-
ber of able seamen to 38,000, they ought to vote 50,000
at this morner.t.

Lord C. PAGET said he thought the statement of the
right hon. gentleman was highly satisfactory ; but yet
he must add that, in his opinion, we ought to deal with
the men differently after inducing them to give up
their other pursuits and join the service ; and, ifiwe dis-
missed them, it ought not to be without a pruper
gratuity. He expected there would have been a much
more detailed statement of the purposes to which the
money was to be applied —the house was entitled to it
—yet there were two votes comprehending 2,000,000/.,
and all that they knew of them was, that the one was
for wages of artificers and the other for the materials of
ship-building. After much had been said of the value
now of ships of the line, he must say he believed teat
the relative power of smell vessels was greatly increased
over that of large ships. He did 'not wish to see the line-
of-battle ships burned ; they would always be necessary
as the public officers, so to speak, of the fleet ; the flag-
ship must always be a line-of-battle-ship; hut they might
greatly reduce the number of them. The First Lord
had told them that in 1817 we had 117 line-of battle-
ships, and now only 42 ; but, according to his (Lord C.
Paget's) statement, we bad 51—for he reckoned the nine
block ships cf the number as being the most efficient
line-of-battle-sh!pe. These block ships were aWe to take
part in the engagement in the Baltic, while the others
lay off looking or. But he believed that if the gallant
admiral the member for Smithwark had had a large force
of gun-boats they might have damaged Cronstadt. In
former times the line-of•battleeship cerried the heavier
metal; but in these times the vessels of the class of cor-
vettes and sloops of war all, carried these heavy guns ;
and he believed that experience would yet show that no
line-of-battle ships would be able to withstand the shoal
of gun-boats and sloops of war which they saw last year
at Spithead, and which did the right hon. gentleman so
much honour. If the First Lord would only issue a
commission to some 'experienced officers to inquire what
class of vessels was moot useful, he believed it would
be attended with the best' consequences to the navy and
the country. The right hon. baronet had represented
the number of French line-of-battle-ships as much
greater than it real), was. He had received a state-
ment from the French Minister of Marine, from which
it appeared that there were only 31. He maintained
that line-of-battle-ships were inefficient, and he asked
that the opinion of a commission of naval officers should
be taken upon the subject, (Hear, hear.)
Our treat strength lay in the gun-boats, and it was im-
possible for a landing to be effected in the presence of the
legion of gun-boats with whisk this country had been
provided. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK objected to the penny wise and
pound foolish policy. The extravagance which had been
complained of arose from the foolish principles of eco-
nomy advocated by some hon. members. Toe enormous
cost incurred 'during the late war for the transport ser-
vice might have been obviated if proper meanshacl been
adopted.

Mr. WARRE asked for some explanations with re-
spect to the coast-guard service. Ho also objected that
great loss was occasioned by not keeping the navy in an
efficient state, as appeared by a letter written by the
Admiralty, in which it was stated that some of the gun-
boats were constructs(' in such haste and of such green
wood that they required to be taken out of the water,
and their timbers exposed to a thorough draft of air in
order to get seasoned.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that no one was more
anxious than himself to maintain the efficiency of the
navy ; but at the same time he could not but look to the
great expense which had been incurred, and the present
inefficient state of the navy. The estimates for the year
1852 3 were 25175;0001. less than for the present year,
after two or three years of peace. There was no necessity
for any such increase. 250,000,0001. bad been expended
on the navy since the termination of the French war,
and he asked why, after such an expenditure, the navy
was so inefficient. He found that there were 3Q2 admi-
rals on the half-pay list, while there were only nine in
commission and three in the dockyards. In 1851-2
there were 220 on half-pay ; in 1837 there were 148 or
154 less than in 1857. During the late war only 18 ad-
mirals were required to command our fleets, and yet there
was this enormous number of admirals on half-pay. The
number of marines, also, was too large. ' There were
15,000 for 35,000 sailors, while during the war there
were only 16,000 fur 60,000 sailors. There were 34 ge-
neral officers of marines, and 73 staff officers, with a
command of 205 each. This was most extravagant. The
expenditure in dockyards was atlogether unaccount-
able. In the last five years the sum spent in wages and
stores had amounted to 16,036,A001., and if they took
stock as a merchant or tradesman did, they would have
considerable difficulty in discovering what had been doee
with so much money. We had built three times as many
ships as we had got at present, and yet none had been
destroyed in war, nor damaged, nor lost. There were se-
veral Lords of the Admiralty receiving 1,0001. a-year,
and an allowance of 2001. and 3001. a year for roue rent
in addition to their hal'-pay as admirals, He could not
understand on what principle they were allowed to re-
ceive their half-pay when they were well paid for the
performance of civil duties. It had been his intention to
more that the estimates be referred to a select commit-
tee, where only they
‘could be properly inquired into,
but as one-third of them had been voted by the last Par-
liament, he did not non propose to adopt that course.
He ventured, however, to assert that when these ac-
counts went to the audit-office not one of the sums
erotild be found to have been expended actually for the
purpose for which it had been Voted. ,
Sir F. SMITE did not agree with the gallant admiral
who had spoken, thatwe could not man a fleet to go to
war with France. He had seen our fleet in the different
ports of the ceuntry, and he had come to a very different
conclusion, and he hoped that the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty would,be induced to grant the commission sug-
gested by the gallant officer, because he believed the re-
port it would give would confirm what had been adopted
by the Government. He approved of their building line-
otkattle ships, end thus preparing themselves to cope
With any enemy. The gallant admiral said we were not
provided with a sufficient army wherewith to meet an
enemy, but he ventured to differ with him in that respect.
Before a war could take place wewould have some warn-
ing, and ample time would be given to provide a suffi-
cient force to assert oar rights. With regard to the esti-
mates before the committee, he must yt'at he never
saw any which were more comprehensive, or had been
prepared wibh grea'er minuteness or clearness.
Sir J. TRELAWNY complained of the absence of a
sufficient audit, and said that although for the last seven
lasaare stuns vpoying from 5,000,0001. to 8,000,000/. a-
year bad been voted, we were; at the breiliug Out of the
last war, deficient in all those appliances which 'were
necessary to the proper carrying out of that war, and
were therefore unable to strike that blow in the Baltic
which- might have been struck. He deprecated the un-
wise and wasteful system of paying off and dismantling
ships on their arrival in this country, and suggested that
they should be kept in a state of efficiency. He believed
that by judicious management convict labour might be
made available to a considerable extent in connection
with navel works, and a great saving thereby effected
to the country. He could not justify the high estimates
in consequence of the two wars which the country
was engaoed. With regard to masters in the navy, he
thOught that they ought to have the same opportunity
of rising in their profession as privates had in the army,
and nut be compelled to remain as masters ad. their life.
Then, as to the naval yards, he saw no necessity to keep
admirals at the head of them.
Sir C. WOOD said, in reply to the questions of hon.
members, that anew uniform was being prepared for the
navy. According to the new regulations a school ship
bad been stationed at Portsmouth and Devonport for
the reception of tee naval cadets who would, for the
future, go to sea with far more knowledge of their pro-
fession than hithert"- The gallant admiral, the . hon.
member for Se•uthwark, had stated that during the war
the navy had received only 400 men from the merchant
service. He (Sir C, Wood) was not in a position to may
how many had really been received fern the were:lntl:,
marine, hut he knew that during the first two years or
the war 16,000 men and 4,000 boys entered the R real
Navy, and he was at a loss to know where those 16,000
men came from if not from the merchant service. The
gallant acirtral had, also said that it was wrorg in
the Admiralty to pay off and not recommission ships,
but he was happy to tell the gallant member that
the Admiralty had recommissioned the Bmcaweo,
which had just returned home. The honourable and
gallant member had attributed unworthy motives to the
Admiralty by stating that it was the wish of the First
Lord to keep down the service of the captains, and so
force them on the retired list, when it must be manifest
that if the Admiralty had any such wish they could best
carry it out by employing a few captains in continuous
service, and thus exclude the majority from the oppor-
tunity of serving. With respect to the principle on
which the retired liet was framed, he did not wish to
speak. In. France rt.) officer could serve after a certain
ago,, and in. America the United States Government,
acting on the sauce rule, lately discharged a large num-
ber of officers without half pay or any remuneration.
Here the sole was not to keep in active service as an
admiral any officer who had not served a certain num-