The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-14 00:00:00

MPE

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HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.
ROMAN CATHOLIC PAUPERS.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the
Roman Catholic paupers of St. John's wood, complaining
of defective religious instruction.

RIAL PARLIAMENT. Ffficers
! of the late East India f
Company's army, on
its amalgamation with the Queen's forces ; whether it
was intended that medical officers who received an
increase of rank by the warrant of January, 1860, simi-
lar to that granted to officers of the Queen's army by the
warrant of October, 1858, should also receive the same in-
crease of pay in proportion as when granted to medical
officers in the royal army; and were the senior medical
officers of her Majesty's Indian service to be promoted to
the rank of Principal Inspector General, Inspector General
of Hospitals, and Deputy Inspectors General of Hospitals,
as heretofore, when vacancies occur, or were these appoint-
ments in future to be filled by the medical officers of her
Majesty's royal army ?
Sir C. WOOD said he was sorry that he could not give
any satisfactory information on this subject, as the matter
rested with the Council of India and the Secretary for War.
THE EAST INDIA BILLS.
In reply to Colonel SYKES,
Sir C. WOOD said he hoped to be able to proceed with
the second reading of these bills this evening.
HER MAJESTY'S STEAMER JACKALL.
Mr. CAIRD asked the Secretary of the Admiralty whether
it was true that a fisherman had been killed, and another
seriously injured in Argyleshire, in consequence of shots
fired from her Majesty's steamer Jackall, while at sea, and
also who was responsible for such a proceeding.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the accounts re-
ceived on this subject were conflicting, and the matter
would be judicially investigated.
THE GOVERNOR OF LEBANON.
In reply to Sir J. FERGUSSON,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it had been agreed that
there should be a Christian Governor appointed for the
Lebanon, but some difference of opinion prevailing
amongst the Commissioners as to whether he should be a
native, it was agreed that there should be no limit in re-
ference to that point.
THE HIGHWAYS BILL AND THE ELECTION
LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
In reply to Mr. BARROW and Mr. D. GRIFFITH,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said if he could proceed with the first
of these bills by going into committee not later than 11
o'clock to-night he would do so, tut With reference to the
other bill he would not bring it on to-night.
WORKHOUSE AND DISTRICT SCHOOLS.
On the motion of Mr. HENLEY, a number of returns
on this subject were ordered.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
various exceptions were taken to its provisions by Mr.
HADFIELD and Sir H. WILLOUGHBY.
Mr. AYRSON defended the bill, but considered it was
inconvenient to mix up the subject of Indian finance in a
manner like the present.
Sir C. WOOD said that he concurred with the last
speaker, but the course he pursued was unavoidable.
He quoted some of the statements of Mr. Laing in his
financial statement to show that he (Sir C. Wood) bad not
drawn too flattering an account of the financial position of
India. He placed greater reliance on this statement,
which had been endorsed by all the members of the India
Council, than the report on which hon. members relied for
information.
The house then went into committee, Mr. MASSEY in
the chair, when the several clauses having passed through,
the house resumed.
EAST INDIA COUNCIL BILL.

On the question being put, that this bill be read a second
time,

Mr. VANSITTART said the bill was a very important
one, and it appeared to him that the object of the bill was
to multiply the councils, which were already too many. He
would not, however, enter into details on that occasion, as
he hoped to have an opportunity later in the evening of
again addressing the house on the Civil Service Bill. He
did not quite understand the nature of these councils, but
he thought them open to a variety of objections. Re thought
that the bill had been hastily and crudely prepared, and he
regretted that the right hon. baronet should have allowed
three-fourths of the session to pass away before he intro-
duced measures of such importance. They ought not now
to be hurried on with such breathless haste ; and, looking
at the amount of business which had yet to be gone through
during the remaining six weeks of the session—the distri-
bution of seats, the highways, the Galway contract, the
artistic copyrights, the county surveyors, and last, though
not least, the committee of supply as yet almost untouched
—he thought that it would have been more prudent for the
right hon. gentleman to have postponed those bills till next
session, and if any motion were made to that effect, he
would gladly second it.
Mr. W. E. FORSTER said he should like to knew
whether the proceedings in council in Calcutta would be
public or otherwise. At present that council was a little
Parliament, regulated by the Governor-General, and its
proceedings were conducted much the same as the process
in that house. Under section 19 of this bill the power to
make regulations for these councils was continued to the
Governor-General, and he should like to know what kind
of regulations would be made. Some persons disapproved
of the manner in which those councils had hitherto been
conducted, and he wished to know whether the proceed-
ings were to be secret or public, and if public, whether the
publication would be made daily. (Hear.) In the despatch
of Lord Canning of Jan. 15, he alluded to the disadvantages
of the mode of publicity hitherto adopted, and recommended
that the proceedings in the Legislative Councils of the north-
western provinces and the Punjaub should be conducted, not
in the form of a Parliamentary debate, but as proceedings in
a commission, and that the proceedings should be published
under the direction of the Government. But his lordship
did not say whether they should be published daily or other-
wise. This was not a question of mere detail, but a great
question of principle as to whether the legislative action of
these councils should or should not be carried on under the
influence of public opinion. It was said that the Govern-
ment of India was a despotism, and must be so. No doubt
this was the case; but it should be an enlightened despotism.
He was delighted therefore to find that European residents,
and to some extent natives, were to be admitted to these
councils; but unless their proceedings were reported daily
public opinion could not react upon them. As an illustration
of the advantages arising from the immediate publication of
the debates in these councils he referred to the case of Mr.
Wilson's Income Tax Bill, which was felt as a great hard-
ship by the mercantile community—who were required to
estimate their business for three years—owing to the great
fluctuation of Indian buslztess. Their case was considered a
hard one ; but when Mr. Willson was able to express the
necessity of the measure, and the equality of its incidence,
it was received with satisfaction by the residents through-
out India. The tobacco tax proposed by Mr. Wilson was
another illustration of the advantage of publicity, as it
enabled him to discover that it pressed far more harshly
upon the natives than he had thought it would, and
this induced him to drop it; whereas but for publicity
it might have come into operation, and Mr. Wilson
would only have discovered how obnoxious it was when he
witnessed the passive resistance of the natives. Subject
to the general supervision of the Governor •General, the
governors of provinces were to make regulations for their
provincial councils, and Lord Canning had said they would
be conducted as at present. Now, if they gave these local
councils the advantage of publicity, and thus secured the
assistance of public opinion in support of them, and still left
the supreme council at Calcutta secret, they would not find
such a machinery work at all, (Hear.) He was sorry to find
that these local councils were to be debarred from dealing
with the land tax. (Sir C. Wood said that was a misprint.)
This tax prevented the growth of cotton, although our
manufacturers were now looking earnestly to India for that
article.
Mr. LAYARD thought they ought not to be asked to
discuss three measures of such importance in the course of
a single evening. These bills would affect our rule in India
to an extent which few imagined. He did not rise for the
purpose of opposing these bills. He admitted that the Go-
vernment had shown a strong desire to deal with the ques-
tion in a large and liberal spirit, and had made great con-
, ca sals, if he might so call them, at any rate great changes,
which deserved and would command the approbation of
those who took an interest in Indian questions. This bill
weyosuteldraimefp;czent state of things in India, and make the
whichwhich he had lasug
he
an Tit by council far more effective, and
png for the employment of the natives
wished to see. No doubt the legislative
council established
some
was not a consultative, oeyeara ago was a total failure. It
oftearesentative, or a legislative
council. The Governor-
aisuldreceived their advice but
was not bound to act upon it, and not. It was therefore
not a consultative council.
not a represen-
wasybody but a few
tative council, for it did not reprelenitt
p independent
officials in India ; it did not represent thean
as was seen in
the population, the natives of India, or tcheaaitndrnasses of
of which did not
Englishmen established in India for the
commerce or of agriculture. The members were defin-
tchieent casein tohfe imr knowledgeadras, the representative
rtehsee
nctoaut
invter y,
represent his province on the subject of the income tax, for
if he had and had properly placed them before the council
Sir C. Trevelyan would not have taken the steps he did to
give them publicity. He thought that such councils as
these in the Presidencies, and subsequently in the north-
west provinces and the Punjaub would be attended with a
good effect, as these councils would be enabled to deal satis-
factorily with local matters with which they were familiar.
But the Bengal civil servant might know well the local cus-
toms and yet be entirely ignorant of the laws of Madras, or of
any other province; and what was suitable for Bengal,
might he entirely unsuitable for other parts of India. Every-
body now admitted that the income tax worked ill, and
would have to be repealed, The bill now before the house
was a good one, for it gave to the north-west provinces and
Punjaub an interest in self-government, and enabled them
to legislate for themselves. This institution of legislative
councils was a step of great importance towards the ulti-
mate division of that country into distinct Governments,for
Which the time was not yet perhaps fully come. These
froacouncils, moreover, would release the Governor-General
many of those arduous duties with which he was at
emepresentr.oveereburdened. At present the business of the Go-
v Gn al was enormous, almostdetail came
before him, and this led to Lordevery
Canningbeing described
as dilatory. By
deal witgrbeilalt
this bill he would be relieved from details,
and have only to
an n
committeedcithdueensstehitoonrs.d As regarded
the adthission of n..atiives the farm enough—
(hear, hear)—and
as as
amendment, " That of additional members COAZI,CI4