The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONbON, FRIDAY EVEN/MI JULY",II'S, 1861

present estimates of no less than over £803,000, while for
schools of science and art it was now proposed to grant
£111,489. The whole amount proposed for educational pur-
poses was £915,278. He should not object to that amount,
if he was sure that it realised the benefit that it was
considered likely to effect, but the fact was that the educa-
tion given in Government schools was not only defective in
quality as regarded the higher branches, but failed to sup-
ply education of a class suited to the station in life of the
parties who were the recipients of it. The hon. member
then proceeded to point out what he considered the other
defects of the existing system.
Sir G. C. LEWIS considered that the question should
be brought forward at a later period of the estimates, when
the particular votes in question were under consideration.

~~r.

we should never be able to spare troops to man the fortifi- I would be strong forts inside replying to them. He con-
cations at Alderney ? Then the committee were asked to sidered the fortification desirable as one of the advanced
vote this sum in an estimate for harbours of refuge. Could defences of the country.
there possibly be a greater mistake ? Every shipowner Mr. LINDSAY wondered why the government should
knew that Alderney was perfectly useless as a harbour of spend money on enclosing a harbour which was full of
refuge; that his ship would be safer in beating about in the rocks, and in which the tide was so strong. No man in his
Bay of Biscay than in Alderney Harbour, and he was sure senses would think of running in a gale of wind for Alder-
his hon. friend the member for Sunderland would imme- ney. It was, therefore, not a harbour of refuge ; and he
diately dismiss any captain of his who would attempt to did not see why they should spend £1,300,000 for a mere
run his:vessel into Alderney. In this, as he must call it, look-out. All that was wanted for that purpose would be
gigantic folly, the country had already spent £862,000, and a telegraphic wire and a person at the other end to send us
they were now called upon to vote £363,000 more. He word what was going on. The noblelord had given thehouse
asked the committee not to be deluded by any statement the usual stereotyped answer, namely, that so much had
that if this money was withheld, the money already ex- been done that it was necessary to spend half a million
pended on the works would be thrown away and the har- more to complete the work. But how did they know that
bout would be useless. It was useless now, and no money half a million more would be sufficient ? If we had never
they could expend upon it would make it serviceable to spent a penny on this island, no foreign power would ever
the public, and it was upon these grounds he asked the in case of war have thought of seizing it. It was the build-
committee to reduce the vote by £90,000, the whole of the ings that we had put upon it that would tempt invasion.
amount asked for the works at Alderney. He was confident Besides, would not the 5,000 to 8,000 men that would be
that if his motion were agreed to, the only sufferers would be required to garrison the forts be much better placed else-
those who had been paid for a long series of years for where. He trusted, therefore, the house would refuse the
throwing stones into the English Channel. (Hear, hear.) vote at once. (Divide.)
Mr. LIDDELL was glad that attention had been called to Mr. BUXTON asked whether it would not be possible for
the subject, but thought they must be guided by the answer a few gunboats to slip out of Cherbourg and lay the works
of the Government as to whether they should consent to in ruins, as our gunboats had done the forts at Helsingfors ?
throw away £BOO,OOO already expended upon the undertak- Mr. KINNAIRD said the only question was whether it
ing. He did not at all approve of this expenditure, and he would be better to give up the island altogether than to
complained that since the management and supervision of complete the works? (Yes.) It might not be a good har-
these works had been handed over from the Treasury to the hour of refuge, but it was the only one on that coast. He
Admiralty, there had been no adequate check upon the ex- should support the Government, believing that it would be
penditure. In support of this view he quoted the evidence a greater economy to finish the works than to throw away
of the Accountant General and the Director-General of all that had been hitherto spent. (Divide.)
Works of the: Admiralty given before a committee of the Mr. BAXTER said the speech of the Secretary to the
house ; and to show the checks provided in other similar Admiralty had convinced him that it was his duty to divide
cases referred to the system adopted by the Tyne Commis- the committee on this vote. The point marked 1) was a
sioners in the extensive works in which they were engaged basis for the expenditure of nearly £1,800,000, and other
for the extension of the harbour. The noble lord had, he portions of the place involved the outlay of over £2,000,000.
said, denied in the first instance that this was a harbour of The Government had apparently not made up their mind
refuge at Alderney, describing it as a work of public defence as to how far they meant to go, and he must, therefore,
undertaken upon the advice of the Duke of Welliagtonmany divide on the question. •
years ago. But the original estimate was £620,000 ; the Lord C. PAGET said the sum asked for on the estimate
Duke of Wellington gave his sanction to an expenditure of would complete all the works it was thought desirable to
that amount only, whereas the expenditure had already proceed with on the plan. (Cries of "Divide.")
grown to £1,300,000, and there was a prospective estimate of Lord PAL ME RSTON said the great argument of the
no less than £2,000,000. The great destruction of life and honourable member who moved this amendment, was his
property at sea was a national discredit, and the First Lord of fear that the Government might be turned out of
the Treasury and the First Lord of the Admiralty had been office next year. (Laughter.) Well, he suggested to
addressed by petitions and deputations on the subject, but his hon. friend that he might very much mitigate the
they were invariably met with the stereotyped answer that chance of that event by not persisting in his present
the Government had not got the money, and were not in a motion. (Renewed laughter,) The question was not a
position to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide new one. It had been debated again and again in that
it. But how could the First Lord of the Treasury and the house. The Government were in possession of the opinions
First Lord of the Admiralty give this answer with a clear of the highest authorities that viewed it in a military
conscience, when they asked the house to vote this enor- and naval light as a defensive position. With reference to
mous sum of money for works which could never be of any Cherbourg and other places, the harbour and fortifications
use as harbours of refuge. He trusted they should hear at Alderney were of the utmost importance. He really
before the debate closed that there was a definite plan thought that upon a practical question of that nature the
of construction upon which the Admiralty were determined house would think that the opinions of such persons were
to act, and also that there were some probable prospect of entitled to some consideration. For his own part, he he-
the completion of the works. lieved that there never were works better contrived than
Sir J. GRAHAM said before the committee received an those at Alderney for the purpose of crippling, thwarting,
official assurance with regard to the future, he was anxious and intercepting any military or naval operations under-
to give a short ex official explanation in respect to this matter taken from the opposite side of the channel. But it was
as far as he was cognisant of it. He did not regard this work argued that there was no plan, and that the Government
as a harbour of refuge, and he was sorry that it had ever were bound to say how far they would go and where they
been so designated, because he thought that that designee would stop with these works. The answer was, there had
tion was not consistent with the fact and tended to mislead, been a plan from the beginning, but by degrees the works
(Hear, hear.) This work, if defensible—and he regarded it had been extended, though always on the same plan, and
as defensible—was a work of a naval and military charac- there was a distinct and definite limit to them. It was ob-
ter. He had had on many occasions conversations with the jected that rocks had to be blasted in order to complete the
late Duke of Wellington on the subject, and it was a work works, but there was really nothing easier than to blast
which was recommended by the Duke, who attached great rocks under such conditions as existed at Alderney. It
importance to it, and felt at the very close of his life the was very different at Holyhead and other deep water har-
greatest interest in regard to it. It was not to be denied bouts, where considerations of the public interest had over-
that Cherbourg had been a source of just jealousy to Eng- ridden even that argument. But it was next argued that
land in reference to the maintenance of the supremacy of the change that had taken place in naval and military
the British navy. Inside the Channel Islands no hostile operations had destroyed the value of such harbours as that
movement of any fleet could take place from the westward, at Alderney. He entirely differed from his hon. friend who
Any hostile movement from the westward must take place used that argument. So far from these changes having
between Alderney and Portland, and by telegraphic cable diminished the value of the harbour, they had added to it.
there was communication between Portland and Alderney. It was quite clear that if our guns were of heavier metal, of
It had been said that Alderney was not susceptible of de- longer range, and of greater precision and accuracy, they
fence. As far as related to the military works at Alderney, must be able to hit ships at greater distances with greater
he believed that they were complete, and he spoke upon certainty, whether moving or stationary; and therefore
the authority of Sir John Burgoyne, who had conducted the that argument went, in fact, in favour of the harbour.
works, and who considered them so complete, that upon his Then it had been argued that the harbour would be de-
reputation he desired nothing more than to command a stroyed, like some of those in the Baltic during the late
w
small garrison of under 3,000 men, and was confident that war, To that he replied, a harbour consists of water and
he could hold Alderney against any force that could be certain defences, ani that these could not be destroyed by
brought against him. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the firing at them. 'We 'could always shelter in Alderney har-
harbour, he admitted at once that it was not a harbour bout a fleet of small steamers and gunboats equal to those
of refuge, and he then said that in the opinion of ad- which might be brought against us. As to the argument
mirals and generals upon whose authority he relied, but that 3,000 soldiers would be required to garrison the works,
relying mainly upon the highest of all military authorities, who would be more valuable elsewhere in case of war, he
the late Duke of Wellington, he was persuaded that Alder- would only say that, if 3,000 men placed at Alderney de-
ney fortified and with the means of accommodating ships feated any attempt to land upon our shores, they would be
of war, steamers of war, iron• cased steamers of war, pro• better employed at that station than anywhere else. To
bably as the science of naval architecture advanced, Port- refuse to complete these works now that they had pro-
ceeded so far, would be, in his opinion, the worst economy,
land and Alderney would form most important means of
checking any naval operations in the Channel. As related and he hoped that, having gone so far on what he contd..
to the expenditure, he had little to remark. While he was dered valid grounds, the committee would not agree to the
at the Admiralty he held it to be his duty to examine these motion of his hon. friend, but determine to complete these
works narrowly. These harbours were transferred from the works for the purposes originally intended.
Treasury as a mixed service, partly military and partly The committee divided, and there appeared—
naval. The naval part of the work was under the imme- For the omission of the item
diate superintendence of Mr. 'Walker, the engineer, a man Against it
of the highest ability and the strictest integrity. Mr. Majority —ls
Walker was responsible to the Admiralty for the whole of Mr. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. LINDSAY,
said Dover harbour would be completed for about £650,000
the outlay upon these works ; he appointed an engineer
quite apart from the contractor; the engineer was responsi-
and £46,702 for Holyhead and Portpatrick.
ble for the measurement; he made quarterly reports to Mr. Mr. H. HERBERT wished to call attention to an item
Walker, and Mr. Walker laid the reports quarterly before under this:vote of £415,000 for packet service. The city of
the Admiralty. That was the way this matter was conducted Dublin had contributed largely for improvement in the
during the two years he was at the Admiralty, and he was postal service, but the Government had not performed their
quite satisfied that every security was taken both with re-
part of the contract, so that the large sums voted by the
house and subscribed by the city of Dublin were rendered
nugatory by the negligence of the Government. The dis-
spect to measurement and superintendence. The executive
would give their views with respect to the progress of the
tinct agreement was, that the public should have a covered
works and the future expenditure upon them. Upon the
strength of the past he said he did not regret that the pier at Holyhead for the convenience of the public, similar
to what existed at Kingstown. That agreement was not
work had been executed. He was not an alarmist, and he
c
did not believe that at the present moment there was any carried out by the Government. They broke faith with the
hostile intention on the part of France towards this coun-
public, to whom this accommodation was not afforded.
try. (Hear, hear.) But it could not be denied that France (Hear, hear.)
was making a vast outlay upon naval armaments, not with Mr. WILLIAMS said the public were put to enormous
the deliberate intention of hostility to England, but she expenditure by erroneous estimates. The difference be-
might very fairly look with something like jealousy to our tween the lowest estimates first put in for the construe-
naval means, and might desire to be prepared for contin- tion of this harbour was amazingly great, the lowest being
f gencies by extending her naval armaments with a view to the first instance £lO,OOO, and the highest £200,000.t0
balance our power by sea. It could not, however, be dis- Afterwards Sir J. Rennie gave an estimate of £BOB,OOO,
and Mr. Hawkshawe one amounting to £1,920,000. These
sembled, that whatever might be the present policy of
e
France, it was a policy which it became us by precautions estimates exhibited such wide discrepancies as to require
to anticipate. Therefore he thought that, within moderate consideration. (Hear.)
limits and without giving any just cause of offence to France Air. LEFROY complained of the inadequate accommo-
it did become this country to take reasonable precautions dation afforled to passengers at Holyhead.
for the maintenance of our naval supremacy. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PEEL admitted that the accommodation for the
He did not regard this discussion as inopportune; but en-
public was not satisfactory. The Government had endea-
tertaining the opinion of these works which he did, cogni- voured by a temporary pier at Holyhead to remedy the evil.
sant of the facts which he mentioned, and responsible, in It was afterwards thought that by some small additional
fact, for the outlay which had already taken place, he outlay the temporary wooden pier might be made a perma-
should not have discharged his duty if he had not frankly, neat one. That would account for some votes taken during
in reference to the past, stated hisopinion upon the subject, the last few years. It was now thought that the sum of
and he was sure that her Majesty's Government would as £445,000 would be sufficient to construct a permanent pier.
frankly state what their views were with regard to the out- He admitted it was a defect in the temporary pier that it
lay which they would recommend should be sanctioned for had no covering, but he thought there would be no diffi-
the future. culsy in remedying that defect. As to the packet service, he
Captain JERVIS said that he could bear testimony to the
believed that, generally speaking, the mails between Lon-
fact that a ton of stone had not been put down in these works don and Dublin were conveyed within the time specified in
which had not been carefully measured, and the accounts the contract.
since 1850 had, he believed, been regularly made out. Mr. BENTINCK thought that so long as the free-trade
Mr. PEEL said that though the designs of the harbour principle was adhered to, every one should bear his own ex-
had undergone various alterations, owing principally to pense, and that the public should ?lot be called upon to pro-
the increased size of the ships now built, the total estimate vide for the accommodation of private individuals. There
of the°, works remained the same for the last five years, did not exist in Europe such a specimen of public misman-
namely, £,300,000. The breakwater now extended agement and downright absurdity as the harbour of Holy-
to the furthest extremity to which it was intended
head. The harbour was originally planned so as to be car-
to carry it. If the committee refused to pass the present tied out at a comparatively trifling cost. A certain area
1 vote the whole past outlay would be wasted and cast away, was enclosed for a harbour of refuge and postal communica-
consisting not merely of the £BOO,OOO expended on the liar-
tion. It was found that after the northern pier was completed
bout itself, but of the large expenditure of the War Depart-
it war inadequate for the purpose for which it was designed.
ment in the fortification of the island, and which he believed No vessel could without great risk enter what was intended
i to be a harbour:of refuge4After £600,000 had been expended
would render it as impregnable as Gibraltar itself. The
opinion of the Duke of Wellington was in favour of the for-
it was discovered that that sum had been throw n away. Had
tification of the island as a military defence and a refuge for the Government undertook in the first instance to expend a
vessels of war. If the work were to be now abandoned, the larger sum they might have had a good harbour and on
roll of the sea, in certain states of the weather, would be economical principles. (Hear, hear.) There was no man
such as to make it impossible for vessels to enter the har-
who had seen the harbour of Holyhead who did not look
bout at all.
upon it as a disgrace to the country. Ho thought no hon.
Mr. MONSELL asked whether the charges on armaments member would venture to contradict what he had said
would not render the further expenditure of money on this about that harbour. They now grudged the small sum of
harbour entirely useless ? (Hear.) money that was required to make that harbour give accom-
Mr. WHITBREAD explained the system of cheques, by modation to the steamers sailing to Dublin. He wanted to
which the expenditure was controlled, and did not believe know from the Government whether they were to have the
the public could be defrauded, unless there existed a con-
new harbour or not. (Hear.)
spiracy between the contractor, the resident engineer, and Lord NAAS said a series of blunders had been committed
the engineer in London. with reference to the harbour of Holyhead. Certainly, the
place from which the packets started now had nothing to do
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY observed that Sir R. Bromley,
with the harbour of refuge. • The subject of a packet pier
the accountant-general, did not consider the check on the
had been under consideration for some time. The tempo-
aloneexpenditure for harbours of refuge sufficient. On that ground
rary pier used at present was quite unfitted for the accom-
the committee ought to support the amendment of the
public
cau d
moneya nd
werey e t
expendedthousand
on
n andtthese
tens of
oorfks. thousands
Surely
hon. member for Montrose. There was no document, no modation of the public, and they ought to know whether
ovfouthehespru,Government intended to erect a stone pier in the room of
the wooden one which was used at present. (Hear,)
that was not a satisfactory state of things. (Hear.) Mr. LINDSAY said the harbour of Holyhead appeared
Mr. A. SMITH did not think that a sufficient explanation to be condemned as a harbour of refuge, notwithstanding
had been given with respect to the extent of the harbour. It the amount of money which had been already spent upon it.
appeared to him from the reports that the foundation of the Instead of spending money to make Holyhead a harbour of
harbour had been extended since last year, notwithstanding refuge, it appeared they were to spend money for piers for
the statements of the Secretary for the Treasury and the the accommodation of passengers. Now they should recol-
civil lord of the Admiralty. lect that Galway, Southampton, and Liverpool had equally
Mr. CONING HAM said he had great respect for the as strong claims upon the public purse for the building of
opinion of the right honourable baronet (Sir J. Graham), piers as Holyhead had.
but he did not think the country could bear the cost of Lord PALMERSTON said it was quite a mistake to
making these works in various ports of the world. He suppose that the harbour of Holyhead had failed as a
should vote with the hon. member for Montrose. harbour of refuge. So far from being a failure, it had
Lord C. PAGET said it was found by the committee been a success, and had afforded refuge to hundreds of
that it was impossible to stop the work at Alderney till vessels in bad weather, so that the money had not been
they got to a certain point. The breakwater was of a very thrown away upon it as some hon. members had con -
peculiar
peculiar nature, and the superstructure had to be carried at tended. The argument which might apply to other har-
least as far as the foundation had been laid. It was found hours did not apply to Holyhead, for the question with
harbour was an imperial one, and it
could not
to certain islets, because if this was net done the value of be piGtt upon a footing with the other harbours
referred to.
necessary to blast certain rocks and to carry out the works reference to that
the harbour would be very little. With regard to the ques- Britain and Ireland formed part of
and it was their duty to facilitate
Lion of the right hon. gentleman the member fC: the United Kingdom,reat
Fr] communication as
ii was quite true that naval armaments had much Chan --' „Lierefore quite dimstuinceht as
possible ; and the question was,
enter-
since the work had commenced, but the question assumed ''- ;
~,,
fib. . from a matter of private
that the enemy were masters at sea, which he hoped was prise, for 1,,,.. ,
.!4`vC
not likely to be the case, It also ignored the consideration There was a great deal of force in the remarks as to the in--
Limerick,
was a national one. (Hear, hear.)
that if the enemy's ships were outside bombarding there convenience of the temporal? wooden pier, and the matter
j

was under consideration. All he could say was, that the
Government desired to facilitate as much as possible the
communication between Great Britain and Ireland. (Hear,
hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.

The next vote was a sum of £61,550 for public buildings
in Ireland, which was agreed to after a short discussion.
On the vote of £28,000 for lighthouses abroad,

Mr. A. SMITH opposed the grant of £3OO for a light-
house in the lonian Islands; to the graat for a lighthouse
in Western Australia, which was a rich colony and ought
to provide for its own lighthouses ; and to a sum of £B,OOO
being proposed for the erection of another at Ceylon. He
moved that the vote be reduced to £22,400.
_ _ _

Mr. CHILDERS wished to ask upon what ground they
were asked to vote £B,OOO for a floating light on the Basses
Rocks. He thought the Government of India might to
bear at least one-half the expense of constructing this float-
ing lighthouse. The House of Commons had already voted
£20,000 for this object, and he should like to know what had
been done with that money. He did not think it right that
the revenues of England should be applied for this purpose.
There was another item of £5,000 for a lighthouse in British
Columbia. The whole of the cost of those lighthouses was
thrown upon England, but, in his opinion, the colonies
should be called upon to pay half the expenditure for their
erection and maintenance.

Mr. M. GIBSON said with regard to the general question
whether this country ought to be called upon to erect light-
houses in distant parts of the world, it should be borne in
mind that this country perhaps more than any ether country
in the world benefftted in her trade and commerce by the con-
struction of lighthouses on dangerous coasts. Her commerce
was greater than that of any other maritime country. He
concurred in the opinion that the colonies ought to defray a
fair proportion of the expenses of those lighthouses ; but
there were many places the people of which were utterly
unable to pay towards the maintenance of those light-
houses.

The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the Vote was agreed to. •
£5,000 for the Commissioners of Highland Roads and
Bridges.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to this vote, and moved that
the chairman report progress, but the motion was negatived
without a division.

Mr. WHITE considered that no good ground had been
shown for coming to Parliament and making this demand
on the public exchequer. He hoped the committee would
give a direct negative to the vote.

Mr. WILLIAMS protested against the proposed expen-
diture. Why should this money be expended on the roads
selected in preference to other portions of Scotland ?
Mr. F. PEEL reminded the committee that the sum
asked was merely a contribution towards the repair of the
roads, and he defended the vote.
The committee divided--
For the vote
Against it 59
Majority —l3
The vote was then agreed to.

Tho next vote was £55,000 for Government rates for pro-
perty held by them, which after some discussion was agreed
to, and the chairman reported progress.
EAST INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE) BILL.
Sir C. WOOD, on the order of the day that this bill as
amended should be considered, said he had that morning
had the honour of receiving a deputation of members of
Parliament on the subject, who had suggested, in a most
handsome and gallant way, many amendments, to which he
felt himself bound to accede, and he therefore moved that
the bill should be recommitted for the purpose of introduc-
ing amendments to carry out their views.
Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Ayrton, and Sir ➢f. Farquhar hav-
ing expressed their approval of the course taken by the
Indian Minister, the report on the bill as amended was
received.

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.
The report on this bill was agreed to.
APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into committee on this
bill,

Mr. HADFIELD said he thought Doncaster would be a
better place for nomination than Pontefract.
The house then went into committee, and the clauses
having been agreed to with verbal amendments, the house
resumed.
NEW PROVINCES (NEW ZEALAND) BILL.
This bill gassed through committee.
OFFENCES IN TERRITORIES NEAR SIERRA
LEONE (PREVENTION) BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
COPYRIGHTS OF DESIGNS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
INLAND REVENUE BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock.