The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

would say one or two words on the question of inter-
national law. At the time of the invasion of the Roman
States by the Sardinian soldiers the French Emperor
sent a telegraphic message from Marseilles to the Duke
de Gramont, saying that the French Government would
oppose the entrance of the Sardinian troops, and
that message was sent from Rome to Ancona.
General Cialdini said that he understood the matter better
—he knew what was the feeling of the Emperor of the
French, because he had had an interview with him. On
the 22d of October M. Thouvenel sent a despatch to the dif-
ferent Courts of Europe, explaining that it was true that
such an interview took place, and stating that what General
Cialdini said on that occasion on the part of the Cabinet of
Turin was that if great disturbances occurred in the Roman
States it would be necessary for the Piedmontese to enter
those States, in order to protect the temporal Government
of the Pope, and to go on into the Neapolitan territory to
fight a battle against the revolutionists. In spite of that de-
spatch, which he was surprised did not appear in the blue
book, the noble lord had given his approval to the course
which was being pursued by the Sardinian Government.
He asked any gentleman whether there ever was in the
world an act of greater treachery than that which the Go-
vernment of Sardinia had committed ? (Hear, hear.) Such
conduct must be shocking to the mind of every honourable
man, but still it had received the approbation of her Ma-
jesty's Government.

Lord J. RUSSELL—At the close of the second night's
debate upon the question of going into Committee of Supply,
it is very difficult to say what is the real question which hon.
gentlemen upon different sides of the House have raised.
Upon this occasion I can perfectly understand that gentle.
men, either in opposition or supporters of the Government,
may take the Ministry to task for their foreign policy, and
may say, as they have a perfect right to say, "Before we
go into committee to give any supply to her Majesty, we
must have explanations with regard to the policy which
the Government have pursued." But the hon. member
for King's County, the hon. and learned member for Dun-
dalk, and my right hon. friend who has just spoken, have
in fact raised a totally different issue. They have raised
the issue in the first place whether the Government of the
King of Sardinia is a better Government than that of the
late King of Naples, or that of the Pope; and in the second
pl ice whether, seeing that in their opinion the Government
of the King of Sardinia is not so good as that of the Pope
or of the King of Naples, her Majesty's Government were
justified in giving support to the King of Sardinia against
the Pope and the King of Naples. To the whole of that
question I might answer "Your representation of the policy
of her Majesty's Government is an entirely mistaken one."
I might even grant the first proposition. I might say "The
Italians are extremely wrong to prefer the Government of
the King of Sardinia;' it is, no doubt, perfectly clear, you
have made it clear to demonstration, that the Government of
the Pope is much more enlightened, and the Government of
Naples far more humane than is the Government of the King
of Sardinia ; " but after all I should say that does not touch
the policy of her Majesty's Government, whiclkhas been that
we would not interfere by force to prevent the Italians from
chosing the Government under which they would live.
(Hear, hear.) That has been, and is, the policy of the Go-
vernment, and not a policy of supporting the King of Sar-
dinia against any other sovereign or State whatever. My
hon. friend who has just addressed us has, indeed, referred
to the approbation which I expressed in the name of her
Majesty's Government of the entrance of the Sardinian
troops into the States of the Pope, and into those of the
King of Naples. For that, no doubt, we are responsible,
but that, again, I say, is a question for the Italian people
themselves to decide ; and that is what I said in the des-
patch which has been so often alluded to. If the people of
Naples preferred, as they evidently did, to be governed by
the King of Sardinia, and to be relieved from their existing
Governments, it appears to me, looking to numerous pre-
cedents in the history of Europe that they were justified in
making that election, and that we should not have been
justified either in expressing disapprobation or in prevent-
ing them from changing their governments. The right hon.
gentleman refers to Belgium, and says, " Would you allow
French troops to enter Belgium ?" Why, we did allow
French troops to enter Belgium, and not only that, but we
made it a matter of convention that they should enter that
country. The people of Belgium had risen against their
sovereign, with whom we were bound by every treaty of
; they had broken the Treaties of Paris and of
Vienna, by which all Europe was bound, and it was be-
cause they had done this that we allowed a French army
to go into Belgium in order to prevent the sovereign from
enforcing the dominion against which they had rebelled.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore this is not a matter without a pre-
cedent. And, as I have mentioned this instance, look how
it bears upon another question which the hon. member for
Dungarvan has raised to night. He said the Government
of this country had such a hatred against the Pope that
they are ready to support any persons who will overthrow
his dominion. They cannot bear the Pope, and therefore,
because there was an insurrection against him, they imme-
diately took the part of the rebels. My first answer to that
must be that all the persons, that all the great bodies who
were fighting in Italy were Roman Catholics. (Hear, hear.)
There is no Protestant Power which is directly concerned
in the question at issue there. (Hear, hear.) It is a con-
test of Roman Catholics against Roman Catholics, not on
any matter of faith, but upon a matter of temporal power
and government. (Hear, hear.) But in the next place, I
shall reply that, in the instance to which I just referred,we
making myself responsible, but more particularly my noble
friend near me (Lord Palmerston), who is supposed to be in-
spired by the evil one quite as much as myself--(a laugh)—
took the part of a Roman Catholic people, who wished to
establish Roman Catholic institutions, against a Protestant
Sovereign who was accused of making them too Protestant,
and of attempting on account of his prejudice in favour of
the Protestant religion to overthrow their Roman Catholic
institutions. Well, then, I think that that aecusation, at
least, will fall to the ground. I will now touch upon the
question, which, I must say, I think is hardly one for the
House of Commons, but which yet is the question to which
we have devoted two nights' debate— vie., whether the
people of Italy have been right or wrong in overturning
the Government of the king of Naples, and that of the
Pope in the greater part of his dominions. Upon that sub-
ject I must say that, after all I have heard, it seems to me
that Governments more abominable and more degrading to
the people than those of the King of Naples have never
existed in the world. (Hear, hear.) Look at what the
young King who has lost his throne was led by evil advice
to do. We have lately heard a good deal said against the
King of Sardinia on account of a certain pension paid to
the mother of one Milano, who attempted to assassinate the
late King of Naples. That, at all events, is no fault of the
King of Sardinia, because his lieutenant at once abolished
that pension. When the late King of Naples came to the
throne, he found a number of persons who had been put in
prison because they were supposed to be the accomplices in
this crime, or to have some knowledge of the attempt of that
soldier who endeavoured to be an assassin. It was repre-
sented to the King, and by the English Ambassador among
others; and a petition was also presented to the King by
the persons thus imprisoned, setting forth that they were
altogether innocent of the crime laid to their charge. They
said, " If thera is any ' evidence, bring us to trial; let wit-
nesses prove that we are guilty, and we are ready to submit
to any punishment the Court may decree," But •the Go-
vernment of the King of Naples said "No ; we will not
bring you to trial." The persons accused replied, "If you
will not bring us to trial, let us go free." " No," said the
Government; "It is possible you maybe guilty, although
there is no evidence to prove it, We shall endanger the
safety of the King if we let loose those who may possibly
be guilty, and you must therefore stay in prison for the
rest of your lives for this imaginary crime." (Hear, hear.)
That was the way in which justice was administered in the
kingdom of Naples. Take another instance. As:my right
hon. friend stated, the whole kingdom of Naples was go..
verned by the police. There were a number of persons,
principally of the middle orders, who were called " sus-
pected." They were not allowed passports to go to the next
town ; they were not allowed to leave the country, or to
bring up their sons to the learned professions. If one of
these persons said, " I have a
tion for the law," or another said, " I wish to send my son to
a medical college," they were not allowed to do so, About
100,000 persons were thus watched by the police, and were
not allowed the use of those liberties which the subjects of
the greatest despotisms are permitted to enjoy. At length
a decree appeared declaring that this surveillance was at an
end. But the Minister of Police sent a secret order to the
police that these persons were still to be watched, and were
not to be allowed to do the things previously forbidden
without the matter being reported to him. That shows
the perfidy of the Government. (Hear, hear.) They were
not only tyrannical and destroyed the social life of the
country, but they concealed what they were doing. Well,
these things naturally sank into the minds of the people,
and when they saw the opportunity of freeing themselves
from such a torment it was no wonder they gladly availed
themselves of it. (Cheers.) I now come to the case of
the Pope and the Legations. The very worst character that
a Government can have is that they neglect the things
they ought to do, and do that which they ought not to do.
(A laugh.) Well, that is exactly the fault of the Roman
Government. The first thing a Government ought to do
is to protect life and property. The Roman Government
afforded no protection to life and property. A man could
not travel in the Romagna in safety. One gentleman told
me he was about to sit down to dinner in his country-
house, when a band of robbers carried off everything in the
house, and he determined—svissly, as T think—never to live
in his country house any more. Some young men who
committed offences against ecclesiastical discipline were
punished, but theonly remedy against robbers and mur-
derers was that military tribunal to which my right hon.
friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has alluded, and
which, evil and oppressive as it might be, was only an indi-
cation of the insincerity that prevailed. 'With regard to
those things which the Government of the Pope did do, one
of the greatest abuses a Government can commit is to
prevent a man from using those faculties that are given to
him, and interfering with the freedom of religious worship.
That was the whole business of the Roman Governments I
Every care was taken that men should not use those facul-
ties wh ch Qod gave them, and should not worship
according to the dictates of their conscience, Thus the
Roman Government forbade that with which a Govern-
ment had nothing to do, and did not do that to which
the people were entitled. (Cheers.) If these were the
faults of the Government, what wonder that the people
should at once and gladly receive another Government ?
(Hear.) T should like my right hon. friend (Mr. Monsell)
to account for the fact that when the Austian garrison left
Bologna there was no question about carrying on the Go-
vernment on behalf of the Pope. The cardinal who go-
verned there, as the representative of the Pope, left Bologna
as soon as the Austrian garrison took its departure. There
were no Sardinian troops, or, se far as I know, Sardinian
agents in Ilologna, but there was a general resolution on
the part of the people to declare that the Papal Government
was at an end and was dissolved. (Hear.) In like manner,
every one knows that if the French troops were to leave