The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-11 00:00:00

MPERIAL

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVNING, MARCH 11, 1857.

leges, of his unremitting attention to its business,
of the care which he has devoted t ) the improve-
ment of its forms, awl of the urbanity and kindness
which have uniformly marked his conduct in the
chair, and which have secured for him the esteem
and gratitude of every member of this house."
(Loud cheers from both sides of the house.)
Mr. DISRAELI (who was received with cheers,
and spoke in a tone of evident eraefon) rose
and said I have, sir, the honour to second
the motion of the noble lord, and to express
on behalf of gentlemen who sit on the left of
the chair their entire concurrence with the de-
scription of your high qualities and the estimate
which he has offered of those services which, unfor-
tunately, are about to terminate. (Cheers.) We
too, sir, have been witnesses to the blended firm-
ness and courtesy with which you have regulated
our debates, and, when necessary, controlled them.
We also can bear witness to the learning which has
guided and enlightened our labours, and can bear
witness to the high bearing which, at all times, and
under all circumstances, even the most trying, has
sustained the dignity of the exalted office which you
have filled. (Cheers.) The eighteen years during
which you have occupied that cha;r has been a me-
morable period in the history of the Parliament of
this country. Some of the greatest measures that
have ever been proposed in this council of the na-
tion have been carried during that period, and scene
of the greatest men that have ever flourished within
these walls have been under your guidance. I
make no doubt that, in the page of history, your
speakership, under these circumstances, will figure
as no unimportant one in the history of the Parlia-
ment of this country. The severance of ties so
long, so intimately, and so cordially maintained be-
tween you, Mr. Speaker, and this house, cannot be
witnessed without deep emotion. I confess myself
utterly unequal to the language of panegyric. I
confess myself at this moment unequal to offer you
those compliments which you deserve ; but I cin
offer you for those who sit on this side of the
house—and, I may presume perhaps to say, for all
present—(cheers)—certainlyforhim whom you have
often so condescendingly aided and guided by your
counsel—the tribute of our affectionate respect—
(cheers}—and the expression of the hope that when
your name is mentioned in your absence in this
house, you will believe that it will always be quoted
with regard and reverence—(cheers)—and of our
anxious and earnest wishes that in that compara-
tive retirement which may await you, you may
enjoy that perfect satisfaction which you have so
worthily earned. (Loud cheers.)
The SPEAKER then read the resolution, which
was received with renewed cheering.
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said—Al-
though, sir, it may be quite unnecessary to add
anything to the eloquent speeches, in which my
noble friend at the head of the Government and
the right hon. gentleman opposite have expressed
the sense of this house of your merits, during the
long period in which you have presided over it,
yet for my own gratification it may be perhaps
permitted to me—(hear, hear)—having ben
brought into personal relations with you during
that long period—to say that I cannot but feel that
the manner in which you have conducted the busi-
ness of this house has facilitated the proper conduct
of that business. (Cheers.) I cannot forget, sir, that
at the period when you were elected you succeeded
one of the most distinguished members of th's house
—a man eminent for his learning, who for many
years had taken a distinguished part in the debates
of this house, and who contributed a long experi-
ence in the affairs of Parliament. But, sir, though
that might seem a disadvantage, your merits so
speedily attracted the respect and affection of this
house—(cheers)—l may say you so won the heart
of the house—(renewed cheers)—that the exercise
of authority became comparatively easy, and every
member, whatever his previous prepossessior s,
whatever wish he might have had at the moment
to persevere in some course you disapproved of, a
single word from you was sufficient to cause every
member to bow at once to your decision. (Loud
cheers.) Sir, these qualities have not only
been of the greatest advantage in conducting
the ordinary business of this house, but you have
been able by this means to facilitate in a great
degree that transition in our procedure to a more
speedy form, which has-been rendered necessary by
the.increasing pressure of business in this house,
and you have been able to discriminate with nicety
of judgment whether it was possible to depart in
some degree from ancient and accustomed forms
which regulate our procedure without surrendering
any useful privilege. You have correctly marked
the line where it was advantageous to proceed, and
where it was necessary to resist any inuovatiou of
those established laws. (Cheers.) I believe that
nothing in our whole institutions is more carefully
contrived, or more useful in carrying on the busi-
ness of a great country than our mode of procedure,
and the regular order of the debates in this hon-e.
But at the same time, it is difficult to keep up all
these orders in their strictness without in some
degree delaying the business of the house. Fur-
ther changes may he necessary, and I can only
hopethat in whoever may have the honour to suc-
ceed you in that chair the house may see the
same qualities, the eamo excellent judgmenf, the
same power of authority, and the same art of con-
ciliating the good-will and affection of the house
which you have so remarkablyexhibited. I can wily
further express my extreme regret, which is shared
I am sure by.every member of this house, that this
is an occasion upon which we have to take leave of
you. (Cheers.)
The SPEAKER having put the resolution in the
usual form, which was carried amidst the mo,t en-
thusiastic cheering, proceeded to say—l can assure
the house that, during the long period it has pleased
God to enable me to d;scharge the duties of the
chair, I have had abundant opportunity of wi'ness-
ing the kindness, forbearance, and indul.. en ce
which the house has shown to me under all cir-
cumstances and upon all occasions. But I have
not words at my command, nor can I sufficiently
control my feelings so as adequately to express
my gratitude f th's crowning mark or their
fevour and approbation. (Cheers.) I can only
assure the house that. I shall remember—l shall
ever cherish —the proceedings of this day to
the la,t hour of my existence ; and that
the resolution to which you have unanimously
;greed shall ever be considered by me as a great and
invaluable reward ter my public services—(cheers)
—and in all sincerity, and from the very bottom of
my heart, I thank you for the distinguished honour
you have conferred upon me. (Loud cheers.)
[Upon Mr. Speaker addressing the house, the mem-
hers all simultaneously took off their hate as a matter of
respect. This courtesy is generallY offered on messages
from the Queen, and on this occasion was most compli-
mentary and gratifying.]
Lord PALMERSTON again rose and said—Sir,
I am per-maded the house would not be satisfied if
upon this occasion we abstain from following those
precedents which wit find have taken place upon
former similar occasions. It has been the practice
of this house, when deprived of the services o

jority by which you were chosen ; but I believe
from that day to this the members of that majority,
and the members of that minority, have Leen all
unanimols in a feeling of Brat tude for your kind-
ness, and admiration for the manner in which you
have fulfilled your public duties, and of deep and
sincere private private friendship, which I am sure
has been felt by every one who has had the good
fortune to approach you throughout that time. It
is therefore with feelings of sincere and deep emo-
tion that I reciprocate the language held by the
noble lord on the other side of the house, when I
express my deep regret that we shall lose the great
advantage of your services. I can only ad 1 it is my
sincere wish that your retirement may be as happy
and as honourable as your heart can wish. (Loud
cheers.)
The SPEAKER then put the motion as follows :
—" That an humble address be presented to her
Majesty, praying her Majesty that she will be most
graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of
her Royal favour upon the Right Honourable
Charles Shaw Lefevre, Speaker of this house, for
11;s great and eminent services performed to his
country during the long and important period in
which he has with such great ability and integrity
presided in the chair of this house ; and to assure
her Majesty that whatever expense her Majesty
shall think proper to be incurred upon that account
this house will make good the same.
This question was then un inimously agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON—I beg leave to move that
the thanks of this house be given to Mr. Speaker,
for what be has said upon this occasion, and that
the same be inserted in the votes and entered in
the journals of this house. (Cheers.)
The motion was also unanimously agreed to.
It was then ordered that the said Address be pre-
sented to her Majesty by such members of this
house as are of her Majesty's Most Honourable
Privy Council.
LAND TRANSPORT CORPS.

Mr. T. D UNCOMBE called the attention of the
house to the grievances complained of in the petitions
(presented 6th February) of she non-commissioned offi-
cers and drivers of the Land Transport Corps, who
served during the late War in the Crimea, and to move
that they be referred to a select committee.
Sir J. FERGUSSON seconded the motion.
Gen. CODRINGTON said there was no doubt that
the formation of the Land Transport Corps was, under
the circumstances, a matttr of great difficulty to the
Government. A great number of the men for that duty
were regularly enlisted for 10 years ; among these men
many were very good, but many were ignorant of their
iuties. When they were taken out to the Crimea they
hid to be organised. He certainly understood that many
of them ha l been regularly enlisted for 10 years, and
ceesequenly they were i ntitled to their regular parch.
went discharge, and so far as they had not received that
discharge, and the pay consequent thereupon, an injus
rice had been committed against these men—unless, in-
deed, it should appear that their accounts took a long
time in settlieg. lie thought that several statements in
the letter of Col. APlVlurdo werejustified. There was no-
thing in the Mutiny Act, nor was there any otherautho-
rity to show that these men were entitled to a gratuity
upon their discharge. But these men were taken out to
the Crimea under circumstances of great difficulty ; they
were formed and organised out there, and they became a
very efficient corps. It became necessary to add a great
number of other men to the corps, and all were employed
at work as land transport men. When the war was over
they were brought back to England and were entitled to
their discharge and pay. These men were fairly entitled
to the consideration of the Government and the country,
and he hoped some means would be found to give effect
to the proper form of discharge.
Mr. PEEL said the motion and the speech of the hon.
gentleman behind him (Mr. T. Duncombe) illustrated the
d fficulty in which the Government were placed, for, on
the one hand, they had to consult the feelings and opi-
nions of these men, who were enlisted in a time of great
emergency, whose expectations had not been realised, and
A hose hopes, v, hich they entertained when they joined the
service, had been disappointed ; while, on the other hand,
motions of economy were pressed upon the Government
as soon as the emergency had passed away. The hon.
member stated that these men had upon an average a
claim against the Government of 141. or 151. per man.
He could undertake to reply to that statement, and he
felt sure that that; was not the case, for very few indeed
of the whole number of men who formed the Land
Transport Corps had any claim against the Government—
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he did not say one word
about average, but that men were walking abuut the
streets who had claims against the Government.
Mr. PEEL said he quite agreed that the corps was
raised at a time of great difficulty, and when it was felt
that some such corps was much wanted to. assist the
army in the Crimea. The Government was determined
to raise a special corps for that purpose, and these
men were engaged without that scrutiny as to whe-
ther they were fit for the service for which they
were designed. As fast as they were raised they
were sent out to the Crimea; and upon the termina-
tion of the war they were brought back to England, and
their number reduced, as was the case with al the other
portions of the army. The hon. gentleman was not justi-
fied in founding upon his motion an attack upon the War
Department, and upon the letter of Col. M'Murdo, who
exerted himself to bring all these men back from the
Crimea. He felt quite confilent that all the advice given
by that gentleman was given by him according to what
lie believed was correct upon the subject. These men
complained because they had been sent out of the ser-
vice. Undoubtedly they had been eent out of the service
as soon as the war was concluded, but that happened to
a large number of men in all the other branches of the
army. This was quite unavoidable if the Government
wished to consult economy. They could not keep persons
in an employment for which they were no longer re.
quired, and i:, was quite impossible to keep these men in
employment in a time of peace. The hon. gentleman
had referred to the mode in which these men had been
discharged from the service, The ordinary practice un-
doubtedly was, when a soldier who had served for a
.ength of time was discharged from the service, to have
a board of officers to inquire into his case, to record his
services, and thereupon to grant a certificate of discharge.
The discharge was one thing, but the document or certi-
ficate of discharge was another. It was perfeetly compe-
tent for the Secretary of State to furnish the person dis-
charged with a certificate ; but the services of these men
were of short duration ; and therefore to those men who
claimed pensions, partial certificates were granted in the
form in which the Secretary of State thought fit. In con-
sequeace of these certificates being granted the men were
seenravbieleedoftoratoacyurceeenipmradnoiye. employment in
iti were n
wtheepolice, and in the
thought that any
imputation rested upon the character of any of those men
because of these certificates not having been granted, it
could be easly removed on reference to the Horse Guards.
An objection had been made to the gratui ies given to the
foreign levy ; and it was said that the land transport men
had been harshly treated because they had not been placed
on the same footing, but it was clear the hon. member
did not know the difference between the foreign levy and
the Land Transport Corps. The latter was a part of the
army, but the foreign levy was an exceptional corps, en-
gaged for special services, and it was competent to the
Clown to reward them specially; but if the Government
had, upon the reduction of the Land Transport Corps,
agreed to give gratuities to them, all the men in the army
who were discharged might claim the same gratuities.
No prorni e was ever made to these men upon their dis-
charge to give them any gratuity. No person in the army
was entitled to a gratuity beyond the sum of 20s. upon
his discharge, and therefore the claim put forward for
this gratuity was altogether unfounded. The hon, meal-
tee said he should move for the appointment of a com-
mittee unless the claims of these men for compensation
fer clothing were satisfactorily adjusted. It was quite
true that these men were not furnished with clothing at
the moment of enlistment, and they were sent out to
the East without it. Those men who did not receive
proper clothing were entitled to compensation. A great
number of men had sent in claims • but he had been as-
sured by Co'. M'Murdo that very few cases remained to
be di'posed of. He 'taped his reply would be considered
satisfactory by the hon. member, and toat he would not
press his motion for a committee.
Sir J. TYRELL said be quite agreed with the hon.
member who had just sat down that extraordinary diffi-
culties beset the Government in a tune of peace, and
scteicteo thoethhuetsseartvicceo.ichilese
kprneevwehotfedanthienm,tafirlocnolidn
ori enfge rje rut
ter, where, in consequence of altered circumstances,
the former estimate of 14 0001. which was required to
put them iu a state of efficiency, hed been cut down
to 2,000/. It was therefore quite impossible to
brigade a considerable number of troops. there. In
consequence of the pressure of the doctrines of the

peace-at-any-price party the Government were
o!) iged to act meanly, and he had lately seen seve-
ral tioldi,rs wearing the Crimean medals who bad been
puniehed fur trifling offences, and treated like felons. He
hoped Vat after the next general election the noble lord
would find himself able to do justice to the Land Trans
port Corps, and to the other services of the country. He
rei,retted to see, as a result of the present wretched and
miserable economy, men who bad distinguished thein•
selves in their country's cause, and who had a quarter
of a peck of medals aenonget them, dragged through the
town of Chelineford like felons for trifling offences.
Sir J. FERGUSSON said that the hon. gentleman the
Under-Secretary for War had denied the existence of the
grievance and denied the remedy. The hon. gentleman
said that the men of the Land Transport Service had been
enlisted lake any other part of the array, and that they
were liable to reduction on the return of peace. He (Sir
J. Fergusson) was, however, of opinion that any body of
men who took service for the benefit of their country
ought not to be dismissed without the proper discharge
to which every soldier was entitled. He complained that
the men of the Land Transport Service were net treated
with the same consideration that was extended to foreign
mercenaries. If men of the German legion were provided
with grants of land why should the soldiers of the regu-
lar arrry_be forced to beg in the streets I He contended
that public faith had not been kept with the officers and
men of the Land Transport Service, who were the lest
men in the service who ought to be the victims of shabby
or false economy. (Hear.)
Attir a few words from Col. HERBERT in support
of the motion,
Mr. DUNCOMBE replied, andenid that, as the ans-
wer of the UndcreSecretary for War was far from satis-

factlry he would accept his offer to take the committee.
He differed with the hon. gentleman in his interpretation
of the law, for he could not understand how it was that
the Secretary of State could do away with the articles of
war, which declared that every soldier discharged from
her Majesty's service was entitled to his arrears of pay
and a certificate on parchment. The treatment of the
German Legion contiastiti very favourably with that to
which the Land Transport service had been subjected.
The men of the German Legion got 221. a-head, an acre
of land at the Cape, and a free passage, and yet of the
2,100 men of the Land Transport Service who went to
the Crimea only 600 returned, and many of these had to
complain of grievances which they were prepared to
prove before the committee.

The motion was then agreed to.
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND).
Mr. BLACK moved an address for returns of the
number of extra sittings of the Court of Session in Scot-
land, since the let day of Jan., 1840, to the Ist day of
January, 1857, in terms of the Act 2 and 3 Vic. c. 36 :-
1, of the whi la Court or either Division thereof; and 2,
of all or any of the Lcrds Ordinary ; and by whose di-
rections such extra sittings took place. Of the number
of causes standing in the short roll of each division of the
Court and ready for hearing, at the meeting of the Court
in November, during each of the last 10 years; and of
the number of cases decided at each of the extra sittings
by each Division and each Lord Ordinary.
Agreed to.
DUTY ON RACE HORSES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
for leave to bring in a bi 1 to make an alterati,m in the
mode of collecting the duty on race-horses. Under the
bill of last year the duty was collected by the clerk of
the course ; but it was now considered more desirable
to place the collection of it i❑ the hands of the Board of
Ii land Revenue. The bill had been prepared with that
object, but it did not in any way alter the duty itself.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CINQUE PORTS.
Mr. WILSON obtained leave to bring in a bill, to cor-
rect an error in the Cinque Ports Bilkof last year.
SLAVE TRADE.
Sir G. PECHELL moved for a return of her Majesty's
ships and vessels employed on the coast of Cuba, and on
the coast of Africa, for the prevention of the slave trade,
from the Ist Jan., 1854, to the latest date, distinguish-
ing steam from sailing vessels.
Agreed to.

INCOME TAX.
On the motion for the house going into committee on
this bill,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY called the attention of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to the necessity of the Go-
vernment making provision in this bill to prevent per-
sons from having to pay income and property tax twice
over in consequence of the deficiencies arising from the
defalcations of the collector.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there was such a provision already provided in the act of
1854, with reference to the collectors of the lend tax,
assessed taxes, and income tax. By a clause in that act
any parish might appoint its own collector with securi-
ties, or petition the Inland Revenue Department to un-
dertake the collection of the income tax.
Mr. ALCOCK thought it would be much better if the
Govcrnment would make it compulsory, and not permis-
sive, for the Inland Revenue officers to collect the in-
come tax.
Mr. W. WILLIA.MS said that the ve, rking of the act
referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been
beneficial to the metropolitan parishes.
The house then went into committee on the bill.
On cluuse 1, authorising the reduction of the income
tax from is. 41. to 7d., commencing on the sth of April
next,
Sir F. KELLY said that, in moving the adoption of
the amendment of which he had given notice, he had no
motive or desire to obstruct her Majesty's Government in
raising the necessary supplies. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer on several occasions that session had stated that
he was not proposing an increase, but a reduction in the
amount of income tax. His chief if not his sole motive in
pressing his amendment was to record his protest against
that their first departure from the act of 1853. He knew
it bad been stated that the act of 1853 was at an end by
the imposition of the war tax, and that the house had
now only to deal with the latter, but to such reasoning
he could not subscribe. He would not say that in pass-
ing the act of 1853 a compact was entered into, or that
a pledge was made between the Government and the
people, but that it was emphatically and expressly de-
clared that by it there should be a settlement of the
question. It was now said that that act was at an end,
but he could not subscribe to that statement, because,
although he and the country had considered that the act
of 1853 was a complete settlement of the income tax,
though it was not a compact, but what might be called
elsewhere a contract between the public and Parliament,
because when the income tax was voted it was for seven
years, and any arrangement since come to in consequence
of the war was only a suspension and not an abolition of
that act. There had been a contention between the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hon. member for
the University of Oxford as to the term reduction—one
speaking of a war, and the other of a peace income ; but
in speaking of the reduction in a time of peace he (Sir
F. K.lly) considered it an increase from sd. to 7d. After
referring to the fact of the house being called on to vote
the income tax without knowing the estimates, especi-
ally as the 2d increase on the income tax gave an increase
of two millions, he concluded by moving the substitution
of sd. for 7d. on the amount of the income tax for the
ensuing year.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered that a sufficient re-
duction might be made in the estimate to admit of the
reduction of the income tax to sd. If the Government
had to provide fur two wars he could understand how
it was that there was an increase of four millions over
the estimates of 1854.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the act of 1855, providing for the levying of the
16d. income tax, was as much the authority of that
house as the act of 1853 ; and if it were not to be re-
pealed the high rate of duty must be collected after the
sth of April next. He did not believe that any advan-
tage arose in continuing the discussion whether the duty
of 16d. in the pound were higher than-the duty of 7d.,
and whether the bill he now proposed was or was not a
reduction of the existing duties. Taking the law as it
stood, and without going into the question of what the
law ought to have been, it was a reduction. (Hear.)
That being so, he thought that the hon. member (Sir F.
Kelly) bad failed on legal grounds, and the next consi-
deration was the moral grounds on which he had based
his motion. The hon. and learned gentleman had referred
to the contract entered into in 1853, and he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) quite agreed with him that had,
there been uninterrupted peace from that time to the pre-
sent, and had the overninent then come forward and
proposed an increase in this tax, that then there would
have been some weight in his argument ; but the state
of things with which they bad to deal was totally diffe-
rent. The foundation of the settlement referred to had
been altered and subverted by the way, which rendered
it necessary not only to increase the tax during par.
years, but to make provision for debts which would be-
come due in subsequent years. In May next they would
have to meet 2,000,0001. bonds according to the terms
of the act of Parliament, and which debt was contracted
for the purpose of the war, and 250,0001. as a sinking
fund, therefore there was to be provided this year under
the existing laws a sum of 2,250,0001, created by the
war which broke out in 1854. It had been said that the
Government asked for this money without showing a
sefficient reason, but he could only say that be stated at
great length on 4 former night his grounds for the pro-
bable expenditure of the present year—(hear, hear)—
and the way the Government proposed to meet it. The
estimates of the army and the navy had been laid on
the table of the house ; and, though they bad not dis-
cussed their details, the details had been exhibited to the
house. The hon. and learned member had expressed
his ignorance of the estimates, whilst the honour.
able member for Lambeth considered them too high;
but, of course, the Government was not to be open to
such opposite charges, of first not having produceil tl • n,
and then that they were tqo high. The hon. member
for Lambeth said that the Government, to justify an in-
crease of four millions over the estimates of 1854, must
show that they were engaged in two wars ; but he (the
Chance ler of the Exchequer) would be unable to estab-
lish that fact. Now, with respect to Persia, peace had
been negotiated with the plenipotentiary at Paris, and
there was no reason to suppose that there would be any
further differencee. At all events it was a great step
that the treaty bad been signed, and that there was no
reason to suppose that the war with Persia had been ex-
tended. As to the expenses of the war, this country
would have to pay one-half of the extraordinary expenses.
Mr. WILLIAMS.—What is the amount
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
would be impossible for him to tell until the accounts came
in from the East India Company. At all events, whatever
it might be, the East India Company would have to pay
all the ordinary expenses, and only half the extraordinary
expenses would come out of the Exchequer. With regard
to the debts arising out of the hostilities at Canton, it
would be impossible for him or any other member to speak
with confidence. All he could say Was, that as far as her
Majesty's Government were at present informed, they saw
ne'reason to anticipate that the ordinary naval and mili-
tary expenses of the year would be materially increased,
while sufficient protection would be afforded to the lives
and property of British subjects at Canton. He therefore
could not claim his hon. friend's vote upon any grounds of
increased charges arising out of the two wars referred to.
There were many difficulties in the way of reductions after
a great war; and if hon. members would look to the de-
bates of 1816, they would find that those difficulties were
distinctly pointed out by the Government of that day, and
recognised by the house. (Hear.) When the estimates were
examined by the committee, he thought it would be found
that they had been framed upon reasonable principles. He
trusted,
o
therefore,
ftie hon, and learned
i that the committee
mittee
gentleman would see that the
proposition
Kelly) to reduce the income tax to 5(1. in the poun(Sir
IF
wouldtz r Fitzroy
derange the finances of the year, and would either lead to
a deficiency or render the Government unable to discharge
debts which ought to be paid off. Before he sat down he
might call the attention of the committee to the fact that
since the income tax was imposed by Sir Robert Peel in a
time of peace, it had never been reduced below 7d. in the
pound. It was renewed for several years at that rate until
1853, after which it was to bo continued two years at 7d.,
two years at 61, and two years at sd. But before it fell
to lid. it was doubled, in consequence of the war, and in
short it had never been below 7d. in the pound.
Tho CHAIRMAN put the amendment, which was ne-
gatived without a division.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he should move, as an amen di.
ment, that the proviso should be struck out imposing a tax
of sd. in the pound on incomes between 1001. and 1501. a
year. The effect of his amendment would be to take off
the income tax from incomes below 1501. a year. He was
quite sure that the Chancelbw of the Exchequer wa° aware
of the grievances which existed amongst persons with small
iucomes, and of the oppression which they were subjected
to. At the same time, he did not think they would meet
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comforts, and were hindered in many cases from educating
their children. Amongst this class of persons were literary

men, poor curates, shopkeepers, and even working men,
who reads up the amount which rendered them liable by
working over time. The hon. gentleman referred to the
case of the poor man who was imprisoned for not paying
income tax, in respect to which he hail been surcharged,
the particulars of which have so frequently been before
the public. He felt convinced that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could make the reduction he had suggested
without any injury to the finances of the country.
Mr. PELLATT mentioned the case of a widow whose
furniture was seized for income tax twelve months after
her husband, who was supposed to be liable to it, was
dead. It was a most cruel case, and the poor woman, who
had a large family, could obtain no redress from the com-
missioner, nor could she obtain any answer to her-letters.
Mr. SMITH CHILD said that the cashier of Messrs.
Minton, the eminent manufacturers of Stoke-upon-Trent,
had been called upon to make a return of all the persons
in their employ who had 801. a year and upwards. As this
was a large firm, and the return would have entailed great
trouble, the cashier demurred, but the commissioners said
they had the power to enforce it, and would do so. Under
these circumstances all the men who had 801. a year were
assessed, and lost two or three days in appealing. This
was attempted a second time, when Messrs. Minton in-
structed their cashier not to make the return, and informed
the commissioners that they were prepared to take the
consequences of the refusal. The application was not re-
newed. (Hear, hear.)
The CIIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
agree with the hon. member for Lambeth in thinking that
the class of persons whom he had described as being so
greatly oppressed would meet with no compassion from
that house. When the income tax was first imposed sd.
per pound was charged on incomes between 1001. and 1501.
a year, being 21. ls. Bd. per cent. As the tax now stood at
this moment under the increase it was llid, in the pound
on that class of persons, or 41. 15s. 101 per cent. If such
a man were called upon each half-year for 21. Bs., that was
no doubt a heavy impost; but the fact must not be lost
sight of that the bill before the house reduced the amount
from 110. to sd. in the pound. The total amount in
question was 350,0001., and that was a larger sum than he
should feel justified in calling upon the house to surrender.
The other gentleman said he had inquired into the case of
the poor man who had been imprisoned ; and he believed
the commissioners had given him some relief. With
respect to the case mentioned by the hon. member for
Southwark (Hr. Pellatt), he would inquire 'into it if the
hon. gentleman would favour him with the particulars.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he wished to withdraw his
amendment, and to substitute another. He proposed that
after the word " gains" in the proviso, to add, he shall
not be chargeable for the year commencing as aforesaid, of
any tax upon incomes under 1501. a year." (Hear.)
Mr. SMITH CHILD said the Chancellor of the .Exche-
quer had 'not taken any notice of the case he had men-
tioned.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not sufficiently acquainted with the details of the ma-
nagement and collection of the income tax to offer any
opinion. He presumed that the local commissioners had
returns on which they acted, and the persons thus ceargecl
had means of income from other sources. The local com-
missioners were not Government officers, but if the hon.
gentleman would give him the particulars he would cause
inquiries to be made.
Mr. WILKINSON opposed the amendment of his hon.
colleague (Mr. Williams). If they excused persons who
had incomes under 1501. a year from the payment of the
income tax, he did not see why they should make people
with 1511. a year pay. He thought that taxes should be
adjusted as equally as possible ; and if one class were re-
lieved, it must be done at the expense of another equally
poor.
Lord H. VANE opposed the amendment.
The committee divided, and the numbers were--
For the amendment 7
Against it
Majority —46
The amendment was consequently lost.
On the question that clause 1 be part of the bill,
Sir H. WILLLOUGHBY observed that the word "pro-
perty " was left out of the proviso.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
not aware that there was any reason for a change in the
phraseology. Profits from gains and property were meant.
Mr. BARRO W wanted more distinct explanations as to
the clause. It was not sufficiently definite ; and for that
purpose he moved the insertion of the word "property."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the best course would be to recommit the bill, when the
word " property," to which he had no objection, could be
introduced.
The clause was then agreed to.
The preamble of the bill was agreed to.
Mr. THORNELY complained of the trouble and loss of
time to which poor persons were put in appealing under
the bill. They were obliged to leave their homes, which
caused both expense' and waste of time. He thought that
some remedy ought to be provided.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he would consider provisions to obviate this inconvenience.
Tie bill was then reported.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
it be committed.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that this was a novel proceed-
ing, consequent, he supposed, upon the new modes they
had adopted. Some explanation ought to be given to the
house. Amendments used to be proposed, not by recom-
mitment, but at a future stage of the bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
there aas a doubt whether more than verbal amendments
could be introduced at that stage of the bill, and it was
better to recommit it.
The SPEAKER explained that this was the course
adopted when errors were discovered which it was neces-
sary to rectify.
The motion for the recommitment was then agreed to,
and the bill passed through committee pro forma.
SUPPLY—THE NAVAL ESTIMATES.
On bringing up the report of supply,
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to move the following resolu-
tion : That in order to insure to the country that relief
from taxation which it justly expected, it is necessary in
the judgment of the house to revise and farther reduce the
expenditure of the State. He said that the First Lord of
the Admiralty was guilty of an act of impolicy the night
before in taking advantage of the forms of the house, and
compelling him to postpone his speech. Speeches of mem-
bers did not waste during an interval like spirits in bond.
It was the better policy to let them speak at the moment.
However, it was not his intentionto trespass at any length.
Nothing but the conviction that we were entering upon a
mischievous course. and that before long we should see the
consequences woald have induced him in the present state
of the benches [there were about 45 members present], to
enter upon such a vast subject as the finances of the coun-
try. He should move a resolution to the effect that it was
expedient to review and reduce the expenditure of the
country. He did not intend to enter upon any subjects
that had been already disposed of by the house in previous
debates. For instance, the house had determined not to
take up any operation for the cessation of the income tax.
It had determined not to abide by the resolution of 1833
respecting the tea duties. Again, the house was voting that
the income tax should be kept up for the purpose of providing
for the ways and means of the country, and did not consider
the connection between the tax and further reforms in our
legislation. There seemed to have been an extra change in
th spirit of the house. When the house agreed in 1853 to the
issue of Exchequer Bonds, it was understood to be merely in
anticipation of revenue than due but not paid. If ithad been
possible he might have solicited the house to apply these
sums to the reduction of war obligations ; but this did not
appear to be the wish of the House of Commons, and he
should cease to urge it. The position of the house was
peculiar and inexact. Great objections were taken in the
early part of the session, by members from every quarter,
to the amount of the estimates' now on the table. The
noble lord the member for London expressed this in the
strongest terms—and while ho declined to withdraw his
support from the budget, expressed in some detail his ob-
jection to the amount of the estimates. If the house had
not been affected by the dissolution, it would have agreed
to the principle of further reductions in the estimates.
Their position was thus a peculiar one. In 1841 they had
passed votes on account, to enable ministers to dissolve
Parliament with the view of taking the opinion of the
country as to confidence in the Government. But these were
estimates which the house had a general disposition to agree
to. At present there was a disposition to question the esti-
mates. Parliament was about to vote for four months' esti-
mates to which it objected, because the Government was
under a vote of censure. The effect of his motion would be
not to upset abstract principles or interfere with supply,
but to refer the estimates to the Government for considera-
tion by expressing in particular terms the opinion that it was
the duty of Government in the intervalof the recess to apply
themselves to the estimates with the view of reduction in
public expenditure. He had no objection to votes on ac-
count, except when they were in contradiction to the opi-
nions of the house. He would ask the house to agree to his
motion on the two grounds—first, that there was not an ade-
quate provision made for the necessities of the year;_ and se-
cen :which was the mostimportant, that theexpendLureof
the country was not kept under due control—that it had in-
creased to the point which was embarrassing, and even
threatened to become alarming. It had been seen that there
was a deficiency in 1858-9 of live millions and a half, and
the deficiency had been increased to sight or nine millions
by the means of the severalchanges which had taken place
in the proposals of the Government. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had made and abandoned a proposal for the in-
crease of tea and sugar, and there was a diminution in the
amount which he had set down for the income tax, so that
in addition to the old deficiency there was the deficiency,
and that of the failure in the provision respecting tea and
sugar. Their last deficiency amounted to 1,400,000/. and
the deficiency in the income tax was about two millions,
waking a sum of 3,409,0001. to be aided to the deficiency
of the permanent provision of 1858-9. It was startling to
in the addition to the four or five millions formerly Shown
debicient, making a deficiency of between 8 and 9 millions.
In this he did not take into account any improvement in
revenue which might take place, and hesupposed that the
Government would fulfil their pledge with regard to the
sinking fund. His right hon. friend had opened a retreat
in saying that the sinking fund might perhaps be post-
poned. Neither bad he taken into account any reduction'
in expenditure. His object was to show how urgent it was
that Parliament should consider seriously the expenditure
of the country. The only other alternative was either
making loans or imposing new taxes. He called their se-
rious attention tom what was require I for the next year ;
but even for the present year the position was not eatisfac-
tory. The estimates of his right hon. Mend had originally
, shown a surplus of 900,0001., which was reduced to
800,000/. shortly after. He would not inquire into the
consequences of the war with China or Persia, His right
hon. friend hal said that he did not anticipate any charge
on account of China. Ho (Hr. Gladstone) thought this
too good to be true, lent if there was to be a charge on
the war with China, as there certainly must he on the war
with Persia, a surplus of 500,00/. was not a satisfactory
balance between income and expenditure for the current
year. It was the duty of the house, before it dissolved, to
make known its views on the subject of the expenditure of
the country, so that the Government might consider the
expediency of reduction before submitting the estimates to
the now Parliament. They had done a popular act iu
giving up the war ninepence. This was not done under
the necessities of public business. The bill which they
were then passing for the reduction of the income tax
from sixteen-pence to sevenponce would not take effect till
the first of July next—so that there might have been time
for a now Parliament to have considered the subject.. If
the balance was unsatisfactory, it was incumbent on them
to place their views on record, since the reduction of ex-
penditure was the only plan on a fa,h, basis for giving satis-
faction to the country when a deficiency of revenue stared
them in the face, Ho wished to say a few words on cer-
tain items in the revenue which might be capable of in-
crease. 'There was the succession duty. At the present
time it produced only a small amount—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Half a
million.

Mr. GLADSTONE—Thero had boon promises, which
would have given great increase to the tax, but even when
it arrived at its maximum, which would be in 1803, it
would not produce more than 1,300,0001. Now the
Government had not :yet introduced the supplement to
the tax, tlint•on—sucoeosion of corpr.rationg, Why did

they delay them ? It might be said that he might himself
have done this in 1,54, but the reason was that the act
had then only just come info operation—it might have re-
quired improvement, and therefore the further tax was kept
back. But this reason did not apply to subsequent veers. He
wassorry that more energetic measures were not taken wie
the departmeot under which the tax came, that of Inland
Revenue. Much was left undone in this department owing
to the weakly way in which it was conducted. Money was
in the hands of the department and not paid over, because
it was never abreast of its work. Both the succession and
legacy duties were greatly in arrear. He now came to the
heads of the estimates for the military and civil service. In
the military estimates the total had increased since 1853 by
seven millions. Striking off much that would cease or be
reproductive, they could not put the increase at less than
six millions. A small portion of this was due to the charge
of the war ; at was not more than 750,0001., taking the
charge of the funded and unfunded debt together. This
left about five millions and a half for the augmentation of
our expenditure its four years. His right hon. friend had
said that there was a difficulty in reducing estimates imme•
diately after a war. But this was not immediately after a
war. At the end of the financial year 15 months would
have elapsed since we were virtually sure of peace, and 12
months since we were actually at peace. There might be
small sums of arrears and leavings, but that was more than
balanced by increased demands, which might be expected.
He looked upon the present estimates as peace estimates,
and with this view he hoped the house would express its
opinion that these estimates were susceptible of reduction.
The military estimates for 1841-2 were 11,700,0001., at
which period here was an increase of several millions since
1835. In 1846 there were large preparations on account
of the menacing state of our affairs with America. The
estimates were in that year 16,830,000/. For 1848 they
were 17,60 000/. At this point they pasied the patience
of Parliament, and the house showed such severe marks
of its displeasure that the Government reconsidered
the matter, and reduced the estimates by three mil.
lions. They were increased again in 1852 to 16,012,0001.
He would take that year for comparison, as it was a year
materially affected by the large cost of preparation in view
of war. At present, with so many causes of tranquillity—
in Ireland, in our internal relations—there was no occasion
for the large armies we once had. A small army, in pro-
per order, would answer the purpose better than large
armies under the system of former times. In 1853, the
expenditure was 16,612,000/. In the present year, includ-
ing the item alre dy allowed for the Persian war, the esti-
mate was 20,573,000/. ; so that on our military estimates
there was an increase of four or five millions since 1852. He
would now take the cavil estimates. He was not disposed
to deal more lightly with th :in than with the military es-
timates. There was mere danger in the first than in the
last, which came before them in a great lump, and which
were theref ze better observed, and were subject to reac-
tions which would lead very probably in time to unwise
and precipitate reductions. It was not so with the civil
estimates. They grew up in a thousand ways, and were
hardly ever brought into totals. The estimates required
to be rudely overhauled. No doubt the Chancellor of the
Exchequer did what he could, and those who pestered him
seb extra, had done much to strengthen the hands of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, which required to be strength-
en el both against his friends and against the house itself.
Very often when they came to details, there was much dif-
ficulty in restraining the house. He could give many in-
stances. One was the immense charges voted by that
house with respect to the Ordnance survey. Thosewho had
supported the survey last year were not aware that the
effect of their vote would be to entail a charge of four or
five millions on the country, and which was hastily voted
away in an hour or two, while mans of the persons who
s) voted did so without knowing what they were voting
about. Again, there were the votes on education.
He frankly avowed that he viewed with jealousy
the growth of votes on education, not that we
had reached the maximum, but because, in conse-
quence, great extravagance prevailed in the
several departments, each imagining that by spending
money it stopped the popular movement in other directions
than its oven. He had no love for the plan of the right
hon, member for Droitwich or the hon. member for the
West Riding, but he would not oppose them by illegitimate
means. The heedless or even mischievous proposals were
made to the committee of council, they were awe eerie(' by
the proposal to find half the money, and unnecessary waste
of public money was the result. Again, an act was passed
last year for the appointment of a Vice-President of the
Committee of Council on Education. Last year, when the
measure was carried, not so much was said about the duties
of the office as about the usefulness of having a person in
that house to answer questions. This was not a satisfactory
reason, yet such as it was it had failed. When the right hon.
member for Droitwich the other night had asked the Go-
vernment what course they would pursue with regard to his
proposal on education, he was answered by a gentleman of
excellent abilities, but who was not a Cabinet Minister,
and who could only give his own individual opinions, and
not those of the Government on the question. On one oc-
easion the office in question remained for five months vir-
tually unfilled, the gentleman who held it being abroad,
and there being no immediate necessity for the actual
exercise of its functions. He did not find fault with the
Government for not exercising the power of filling up the
post during his absence, but he certainly thought it wrong
that an office should exist having functions which did not
require the constant attendance of the gentleman who
held it, but the functions of which requiring occasional
attention, and b Aug that of great importance, could be
much better discharged by a Cabinet Minister. He
should not think he fulfilled his duty unless he frankly
stated that he was not satisfied with the spirit of the
Government in respect to public money, and his opinion
was that the public money was not administered with
that strictness which, in his opinion, ought to obtain.
He did not think that the whole blame ought to rest
on the Government, for he thought that even in that
house quite a different set of ideas and of rules obtained
from what were in vogue and had the sanction of all public
men 15 or 20 years ago. Instances of this were to be found
in the appointments to the judicial bench. The occasion
would he fresh in their recollections when a sum of 50,000/.
a year was set aside for the purpose of relieving the suitors
in the county courts of what were thought to be too heavy
charges. He thought at the time that this was a very
doubtful measure. But if the nation was to be subjected
to so heavy a charge, that suits in the county courts might
have justice partly at the public expense, might they not
look nearer home and consider if the duties of the judges
in the courts of ‘Vestminster had not fallen within and be-
low the powers of the staff there maintained ? He was
afraid he was touching upon a sore subject, but he felt that
a public duty required that he should make those observa-
tions. This griestion having been mooted last session a
promise was made that it should have the consideration of
the Government during the recess. Late in the recess a
commission was appointed, but since that period two
judgeships fell vacant. Instead of making temporary ar-
rangements pending the decision of that commission, the
Government fillet up both vacancies, and on a third va-
cancy, on the death of the late lamented Baron Alderson,
the same course was taken ; but he was bound to say,
without the expression of any dissent on the part of the
house. Having spoken of Baron Alderson, he must pay a
tribute to the m.:,inory of that lamented man—(applause)—
who, when this quest on was being mooted, wrote to him
(Hr. Gladstone) at Y. rk, being at that time abroad, a let-
ter which he (Mr Gladstone) now held in his hand, in
which he declared that it was indisputable that 12 judges
would be sufficient for the term business, and further sug-
gested arrangements by which the circuit business might
be so arranged that no inconvenience would arise from
the reduction. He (Mr. Gladstone) asserted that if in
the administration of Lord Melbourne appointments had
been filled in which such a commission as that he
had referred to had been appointed, Sir Robert
Peel, as leader of the Opposition, would have
risen in his place in that house to propose an address to
the Crown upon the subject, which would have been car-
ried not by the Opposition only, but by the support of the
whole house. So it Sir Robert Peel had ventured upon
such a step, Lord John Russell would have risen against
it, and would have been supported by the whole house.
But he was doing an injustice to Lcrd Melbourne and to
Sir Robert Peel iu supposing anything of the sort; for the
feeling both of Governments and of Parliaments in those
times would have rendered such proceedings impossible.
It was impossible to bring down these estimates to what
they were at the time he had referred to, but that was no
reason why the same strictness should not be applied to
the outlay of public money as used to bo applied during
the memory of the ,present generation. The time was
come when this matter must be considered. Political
predictions were always unsafe, but be would venture to
say that the Government would not be able to go on an-
other year in the present course without a strong move-
ment of public opinion. He defied them to meet the re-
quirements of the public finance next year without open-
ing up the whole question. He would advise them to
employ a portion of the comparative leisure which would
shortly be at their disposal in reconsidering the estimates,
which appeared to him to be beyond what the necessities
of the country requ;re I. Having satisfied a sense of duty
by making this statement, he would leave it to the house
to deal with the matter as they might think fit. Sooner
or later it must be met, and such a question was always
better handled in proportion as it was earlier attended to.
It might be dealt with to the greater satisfaction of the
public, and with less risk of precipitancy, being taken in
hand in good time, than if they waited till pulic impa-
tience compelled them to do foolishly what they would not
do wisely in time. The right hon. gentleman concluded
by observing that he did not intend to oppose the votes on
credit.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the right honourable gentle-
man had made so clear a statement that he (Mr. Williams)
should not trouble them at any length, feeling that he
could not add to the unquestionable proofs advanced by
the right hon. gentleman. He must observe, however,
that he had no doubt, looking at the present operation of
the income tax on personal property, from a million and a
half to two millions might be added to the national in-
come.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in the wide survey of the present situation of the finances
of this country, which the right hon. member had illus-
trated with the experience gained in the office he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) now had the honour to fill,
there was much in which he concurred, and as to that por-
tion that contained matter to which he could not assent,
he fully admitted that there was much that was worthy of
consideration. As the right hon. gentleman's principal
object was satisfied, namely, that of bringing the subject
under consideration, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
hoped he should not be thought to treat the right hon.
gentleman or the house with disrespect if he did not fel"
low him through the whole of his remarks. With regard
t r taxation, he had no apprehension of any deficiency; and
in respect to future years, he would only observe that he
placed all future years out of the question, considering that
as they were only about to take votes on credit for a part
of the present year, it would be a waste of time to enter
into the consideration of future years. It would be the
duty of the Government to take measures from year
to year to meet the expenditure out of the ordinary
resources of the country, and not to resort to credit,
which he considered was not a legitimate resource in
time of peace. (Cheers.) Whether this was to be ac
complished by new taxation or by reducing the experedt-
ture it was not for him now to say. This was the in-sit
year since 1853 that it ha 1 not been the duty a the
financier to exhibit a great deficiency. In granting this
vote on account, the house were not pledging them-
selves to any approval of the estimates, oven for four
months ; but on the assembling of the new ItAt arliaithenrr
it
would be competent for the house to discuss ees mates
of the year as a whole. In respect to the aipointmoa of 0,10
judges, it appeared to him that pending theiecision of the
commission it was iuipessible to take anyot heter course than
what b
had been adopted. The duties must e perforated,
which c aild only be done by the filling up of the vacancies;
nor could any change be made till the commission had re.
ported. He trusted that having attained Ins o' ject of dr tw.
ne attention to the subject, his right hon. friend wouldnot
think it necessary to press this question to a division.
Mr. CARR GLYN said that the first year after a war
afforded no criterion of the expenditure in years of peace,
but it would be the duty of the new Parliatneut, when they
should meet, to take the whole question into its veryserious
consilseetien. In his opinion much good would be done,
.f harnedt...tely on the re-4.,-,,,::;olJuing of Parliament, a COM •