The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-11 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The house then went into committee of supply.
On the vote of £398,695 for the manufactory for arms and
establishments at Enfield and elsewhere,
Mr. NEWDEGATE complained of the cost to which
the country was put by these establishments, and the neg-
lect displayed in not laying the accounts of the expenditure
before the committee in a manner which would enable
them t) judge if too much were charged. Looking at the
returns presented, he believed that the cost of manufac-
turing these arms was much higher than in the trade, and
he was of opinion that there was really no sense in con-
tinuing the system. Two committees sat on the subject,
and certainly their recommendations ought to be attended
to. In addition to Enfield, they had an establishment at
Milbank which cost £15,000 a year, and at Weedon, which
cost £3,000. Enfield cost the country £70,000 a year, and
surely Vaat was enough for all purposes.
Captain CARNEGIE objected to the items in the esti-
mate for lodgings to those officers who could not be ac-
commodated in barracks. Proper accommodation ought
always to be provided.
Colonel DUNNE said he considered it necessary to call
attention to several of the items in this vote. He found
one of them had reference to small aims, for which a large
sum was sct down. Lcoking to the returns, ho found
great inaccuracy in relation to these arms, These returns
did not cont tin any information of the manner in which
the alleged losses of small arms occurred. It had been
said that there were large losses of those weapons in the
Crimea ; but it should be recollected that the small arms
were not sent out to the Crimea untill the war might be
considered as at an end. Then, with regard to the cost
of the soldier's tunics, he also found the returns most in-
accurate. He found that in the estimates a sum of
£1 2s. 6d. was set down and charged as the cost of a
soldier's tunic, while it was a well-known fact that the
tunics of forty battalims cost only 18s. each. (Hear.)
With regard to the want of proper barrack accommoda-
tion for thd army, he thought it most desirable not to
have so many married men in the army. They had not
barrack accommodation for them, their wives, and chit- ,
dm, He did not think a f 591419; VgAtO Yfifet".

Lord STANLEY could not concur in the views expressed
by the hon. baronet the member for Finsbury as to putting
the control of the expenditure into the hands of permanent
officials. If that was done thOse permanent officials would
in fact become the irresponsible ministers of the country,
and the whole foundation of our parliamentary system
would be undermined. The control exercised by that house
would be in fact taken away. (Hear.)
Mr. E WART said unless some explanation were given
as to the reason why there were so many clerks he should
be obliged to vote with his hon. friend.

Mr. AYRTON agreed with Lord Stanley in thinking
that to give the control of the expenditure to permanent
officials would destroy the power of the house, but the fact
was we had a permanent establishment, and the house was
continually called upon to resist the tendency of the per-
manent establishment to increase itself. At Gambia, for
instance, he found, though on two different pages, that
£257 was paid for the supervision of the expenditure of £4.
That was a sample of the way in which the money was ex
pended, and certainly he believed his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Finsbury would not spend money in that way. He
must say that it appeared to him that the per centage paid
for supervision was much higher than was paid in the
establishments of private individuals. He must say, how-
ever, that the more they looked into these estimates the less
they understood them.
Mr. BARING could not agree that the cost of works and
the cost of supervision should be included in the same ac-
count. He admitted, however, that economy might be in-
troduced into the superintendence of Works under the Board
of Works. That had not escaped observation on the part
cf the Government. The present system was too military
for the execution of what were or might be called civil
works. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the proposed reduc-
tion in the amount of money paid for the lodgings of sol-
diers, he would remind the committee that money spent in
promoting the health and comfort of the soldier was not
money thrown away. (Hear, hear.) It was, he admitted,
in reply to what had fallen from the hon. member for
North Warwickshire, of great importance that they should
have a complete account of the expenditure con-
nected with the public manufactory of arms, and he
should take care to have such an account prepared
on commercial principles and laid before the house. He
hoped that in the course of next year the expenditure under
this vote would be in some degree economised.

Lord W. GRAHAM wished to know where the military
telegraphs, for which £2OO was charged, were placed.

Captain JERVIS advocated the diffusion of the manu-
facturing resources of warfare over` the country, instead of
concentrating them in a few places. They ought by this
means to keep up ihe pre-eminence they had always done.

Mr. FREELAND wished to know was there any special
reasons for lumping together in this vote no less than nine
items of a miscellaneous character, which amounted to
£45,000.

Mr. BARING would take the suggestion into considera-
tion before the next session, and if the items could be set
out in detail that arrangement would be made. The account
of the manufacturing expenditure for the past year would
be rendered within three or four weeks from the present
time. The observations of the hon. member for Harwich as
to the position of the manufacturing establishments was
worthy of every consideration, and would receive it. The
military telegraphs for which a vote was made were situated
at Malta and New Zealand. He could not hold out hope
of increased pay to barrack-masters, as had been suggested
by some hon. members.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he would now move that the
vote be reduced by the sum of £24,690, which would bring
the vote dowa to the same amount as it was last year.
After a short discussion the committee divided, when the
numbers were—
For the amendment .. 24
Against
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was £866,447 for the wages of
artificers, labourers, &c.
Mr. MONSELL thought the Government could, by their
own manufactories, produce all the stores that were neces-
sary, and thus effect a great saving. For small arms alone
we voted £7`A4,000, which was equal to all the arms paid for
by the French. Unless some explanation were given on
this point he would vote for a reduction.
Captain JERVIS said the country, after many experi-
ments, had been greatly indebted to that great philosopher
—for he could call him by no other name—Sir W. Arm-
strong, for his gun and his shell. By his invention no
wooden ship could appear before us that we could not blow
out of the water. No foreign Power could make that gun
for want of mechanical appliances, and therefore, if they
discovered the secret of the Armstrong gun, still they would
be unable to make anything like it. From experiments
made, Great Britain was in a position to attack iron ships
with a success which no other country could aspire to.
Mr. CHILDERS did not understand why England should
be spending £3,000,000 for arms alone when France only
expended £800,000; and yet, in comparing the armaments
of both countries, their neighbour across the Channel was
much superior in that respect. He wished, therefore, to
know what they were to look forward to as the result of this
great expenditure.
Mr. E. BALL was not a man of war, but he could easily
understand how money was expended in carrying out such
vast improvements in such warlike materials as the Arm-
strong guns. He gave her Majesty's Government great
credit for the position in which they placed the country, and
certainly so long as the present Emperor of the French
ruled the French people that precaution was necessary.
After a few words from Captain JERVIS,
Mr. a'. G. BARING, in reply to the hon. member for
Limerick (Mr. Monsell), on the armaments of the year,
said the expenditure rendered necessary was not for guns
only, but for egun- carriages and ammunition. 490 gurs
were manufactured at Els% ick, and 897 at Woolwich,
making a total of 1,387 guns. The total cost of the guns
manufactured was £520,000, without gun-carriages or am-
munition. The Royal Carriage Department at Woolwich
was entirely employed in the manufacture of guns of different
descriptions, and the estimate for that department was
£336,312, and if they added the £300,000 to the half a mil-
lion it would bring the sum to upwards of £BOO,OOO. Now
they came to the ammunition for those guns. It was all
manufactured at the Royal Laboratory at Woolwich, and the
amount was nearly £500,000, making a total of £1,300,000.
With regard to the cost of small arms, it was half a million
of money for those that were contracted for, and £370,000
for those manufactured by the Government. By those
means, aiding those two items to the £1,300,000, they got
more than £2,000,000 out of the £3,000,000 for which the
vote was asked. With regard to this large expenditure,
looking to the state of the armaments of other countries, it
would not be wise not to supply the navy with the best
guns. The charge for all the Armstrong guns (with the
exception of those necessary for the navy) would be taken
in this vote. It would be borne in mind that they were now
passing through a transition state, and unless something
extraordinary should occur, it was to be hoped that the ex-
penditure next year would be considerably less. He was
sure the committee would agree with him that, for the
defence of the country, this was a vote that ought not of all
others to be reduced. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE said although the hon. member had
satisfied the committee on several points, he yet did not
satisfy the hon. gentleman opposite as to what had become
of the guns which had been hitherto manufactured, and as
to what had become of the vast quantities of finial] arms.
Mr. BARING, in answer to Colonel Dunne, said a large
oortion of the rifles, he
e wreagsirahaepnpteyetfo sthaye,
line,had aa
beenlr
large
distri-
buted to her Majesty's
por-
tion to the militia, a large portion to the volunteers, and
also a considerable portion to her Majesty's navy.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote was £525,416 for army clothing, which
after a short conversation was agreed to.
The next vote was £1,456,834 for forage, fuel, light,
barrack furniture, bedding, &c.
Mr. D. GRIFFITH proposed to reduce the vote by the
sum of £12,454, an amount equal to a stoppage for forage
from the staff and departmental mounted officers similar to
that deducted from the cavalry officers, namely, Bd. per
forage ration—that is to say, per horse per day.
Mr. CONI.NGHAM regretted that the members wl 0
signed the round-robin to Lord Palmerston steadily voted
against all propositions for retrenchment of the expendi-
ture, and he trusted that their constituents would look after
them. He thought, as the vote was £200,000 larger than
last year, that it should be reduced by that amount.
Mr. BARING said that the proposal of the hon. meta.
ber would extend the system of stoppages, a system which
he (Mr. Griffith) condemned as a bad one.
Captain JERVIS reminded the house that, by the pre •
sent arrangement, it ,eas impossible for men of limited
means to accept cavalry commissions.
C9louel DICAS9N objected t 9 Krt QrieVlCo proposal.

(Laughter.) When he was a young man he felt, as a ' Because the cavalry officers were unjustly treated by stop-
soldier, that a " wife " would be a great incumbrance, and pages, that was no reason why the staff and departmental
that she was no part of the necessary comfort of a soldier officers should be similarly treated.
(Laughter.) For example, they had now regiments corn- Mr. D. GRIFFITH withdrew his amendment.
prising a thousand persons, and they had not barrack After a short discussion the vote was agreed to and the
accommodation for more than 700. He thought a proper Chairman reported progress, when the house resumed.
retiring provision ought to be made for barrack-masters, PRINCESS ALICE'S ANNUITY BILL.
and a better system be introduced than that to which he This bill was read a third time and passed.
had referred. (Hear, hear.) WAYS AND MEANS.
Sir MORTON PETO could not but call attention to the The report was brought up and agreed to.
item relating to 196 clerks of the works, who had salaries SUPPLY.
and expenditure allotted to them amounting to £135,959. The report on supply was brought up and agreed to.
He had had long experience with public works, and he was POST-OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS BILL.
utterly at a loss to account how there could be a necessity The Lords' amendments to this bill were agreed to.
for such a Cody of clerks of the works. (Hear, hear) And The other orders were disposed of, and the house ad.*
when he compared the expenditure of England with that of journed at twenty-five minutes to one o'clock.
I France, in their public works, he must say that that of this
cluntry was frightful. (Hear, hear.) We must separate
the political from the commercial and financial departments
of the Government. Until that was done any real enforce-
ment of economy was perfectly hopeless. If they removed
persons from responsible positions just as they became
efficient, it was impossible to exercise efficient control. No
such changes took place in other countries, and there was
no reason why it should be the case here. He should be
glad to hear from the Under-Secretary-at-War some ex-
planation of the item to which he had referred, because he
knew of no works now going on in this country which
should require the services of 196 clerks of works, at a cost
of £136,000 a-year to the country.
Colonel DICKSON concurred with the hen. baronet in
his condemation of this particular item, which had also
arrested his attention in looking over the estimates.

MOUNT VESUVIUS.

A letter from Naples of the 3cl. says :—" As
Vesuvius interests every one, I will give you some

little news about that celebrated mountain. It has
now been more or less in a state of eruption since
the 19th December, 1855, which is the first instance
of an event of the kind being of such duration.
In May, 1858, the cone gave way in every direc-

tion and threw out, by seven different fissures,
its lava, which had not ceased flowing for a
single moment since that time, filling up all the
ravines, and destroying the carriage road which
led to the Hermitage and to the Observatory. It
has covered all the arable land for a space of
about a square league, and on that ground it has
accumulated to a height of about 80 yards.
Fancy, then, the quantity which the crater must
have thrown out ! That movement partly stopped
on the Bth ult. The lower fissures are closed, but
the upper ones send out increased quantities. The
mouth of the 19th Dec., 1855, begins again to growl
and thunder; the hard lava with which the bottom
of it is filled is so far down that when a stone is
thrown into the gulph you cannot hear it fall. It
is very possible that the fire may again begin to
burst forth from the top of the mountain, unless the
cone should again split at the sides. Such is the
opinion of M. Palmery, the Director of the Obser-
vatory, but my idea is that the whole cone will one
of those days fall in altogether."

COUNTRY MABEETS.

LIVERPOOL-MAY 10.

There was a fair attendance of the town and country
trade at this morning's market, and we had a very good
business doing in both wheat and flour, at an advance of
ld to 2d per cental and 6d per barrel upon former rates.
Barley, beans, and peas were without change in value,
with a fair sale. Oats and oatmeal were at late quotations.
Indian corn in good request—mixed American, 34s 6d per
4801 b ; yellow, 35s ; and white 35s to 365.

WAKEFIELD-MAY 10.

The supplies of grain here to-day were less than usual.
The wheat trade rather firmer, and for good descriptions
there:was a retail demand, at last Friday's extreme rates.
Barley, again with an inactive demand, at late quotations.
Beans steady. Oats quite as dear. In shelling there
was no change.

Averages for the week :
Wheat 747 qrs., at 60s 4d
Oats
Baas y :.. r1ey........ 70 3Bs lid
Peas .... —s O
Beans 7O 4ss 3-id
Rye — —a —d