The Sun.
London, England, 1857-12-08 00:00:00

receive the cordial support of the Board. To tell the
real truth, however, I suspected the quarter from which
the communication came, and thought that I had got
&fealties enough without engaging in a conflict with
the press. Therefore I bore the abuse as I could, and
my only offence was that after my first three months'
residence in India I never read a word that appeared in
the newspapers. (A laugh.) They treated me in such a
manner that I was determined not to allow them to
disturb that tranquillity of my mind which I knew to
be essential to carrying on the public business. The
noble earl opposite has spoken of some prose?utionls
under the Act. There has been three prosecutions,
understand, of the newspapers whose excessegentlemen
sled to the
passing of the Act. In the first two cases the
who conducted the prosecution on the part of the Crown
came to terms with the persons who were placed in the
dock, and agreed to take a verdict of one rupee da-
mages. In the third case also
nclthereerstoo was
d). Of Lord
a verdict for
.
insignificant damages (as we u
Canning I have said nothing. have made no attack
upon him. Before the breaking out of the insurrection
Lord Canning wee personally extremely popular. He ,
laid himself out to obtain popularity, and he succeeded.
Every one did him the justice to say that he was a con-
scientious hardworking man, and, I believe, no jobber
—a wonderful merit in that country—(a laugh)—and
really did all he could to perform the duties of Governor
General. That was the general impression. My own
belief is that no man ever went out to India with a more
sincere desire to do his duty to the country which he had
to govern ; but :here can be no doubt that at the present
moment he has not the confidence either of the people
of Calcutta or of the Europeans generally throughout
India. I attribute that to this, that be has attempted
to .do that which has failed everywhere, and which
never can succeed—he has attempted to carry on his
government in spirit opposed to the feelings of all those
on whom he could depend far support.
Earl GREY—I heard the close of the speech delivered
by the noble earl (Ellenborough) a short time ago with
the greatest pleasure. (Cheers.) He laid down in most
admirable language the rule which ought to be followed
by the Government and people of this country in their
conduct towards the natives of India in the present un-
fortunate state of affairs. I cordially agree with him in
what he said as to the necessity of severely punishing the
guilty. I agree no less cordially with his opinion of the
equal necessity of discrimination in the infliction of that
punishment. I agree with him, if possible, still more in
what he mid as to its being absolutely necessary, if we
wish our empire in India to continue, that nothing
should be done to forfeit the confidence of the great mass
of the Indian people. It is as clear as daylight that if
it once becomes the opinion of the great body of that
people that the government of their country is carried
on by England for purposes inconsistent with their wel-
fare—if you once create in their minds a feeling that
we regard them with hostility, the days of our power are
numbered. (Rear.) No efforts we can make, no exer-
tions, no army which we can employ, can enable us to
coerce the millions of India if they are really excited
against us. Therefore I heard with great satisfaction
what the noble earl said upon this subject, because I
know that any observations of his will have great force,
not only in this country, but among the natives of India.
But, my lords, great as was the satisfaction with which
I heard this part of the speech of the noble earl, I con-
fess that it did not remove the regret which I felt at his
having brought on this discussion at all. It seems to
me that in the present state of India, looking to the
difficulties with which Lord Canning as Governor-
General has to contend, this great rule is binding upon
'vary man who has the honour of a seat either in this or
in the other House of Parliament—viz., that we should
not upon any account, by any incautious word which we
may utter in places from which every word that we may
say goes to the furthest extremity of the world, do any-
thing which can diminish the moral power of the man
who is entrusted with the great authority of the Go-
vernor-General of India—(cheers)—and, therefore, that
unless there is a case of clear necessity, even if Lord Can-
ning has made mistakes, we in this house ought not, nor
ought gentleman in the other House of Parliament, to
dwell on those mistakes, or to hold them up in language
which is likely to diminish the confidence which is placed
in him by those whom he has to govern. I say even
when there are real mistakes we ought sot to comment
on them, unless there is some great public object to be
gained by exposing them, some great fault in conduct
that ought to be corrected in future, or some amendment
to be accomplished. I say if this is the correct prin-
ciple which ought to govern our conduct, I cannot be-
here that the cases which the noble earl (the Earl of
Elleaborougb) has brought forward furnish reasons for
host le comment, /Without entering into an argument
in defence of those measures for checking the sale of
arms which have been pretty well defended already by
my noble friend who spoke last, I cannot help saying
that on the noble lord's can showing it appears to me
that the Acts in question are not deserving the censure
which he has passed upon them. Can anybody
doubt that, ander the circumstances in which India has
been placed, during the last few months, the Govern-
ment ought to have some power of checking the sale of
arms ? (Hear, hear.) It seems to me the very first
thing that ought to have been done. (Cheers.) Is it quite
impossible that there may be Europeans so guilty and so
deserving of the severest condemnation that may be
heaped on them as to be parties to supplying the natives
in - rebellion against them with arms I (Hear, hear.)
Have we never heard that some of the subjects of a
State• which was trembling for its existence were base
enough to sell arms to its enemies ! (Hear, hear,) Ha•
that not happened in the United States and Holland
Has it not happened even in our own country ? (Gear,
hear.) I say such a power of checking the sale of arms
is absolutely indispensable to a Government. I think
in the present state of India it would be in the
highest degree unwise, with respect to the posses.
lion of arms, not to apply the role which puts one
colour against the other. I think the distinction of
colour and of origin is a distinction that must be practi-
cally acted upon in a great degree in a country in
the position of India, (Hear, hear.) Then, with
regard to the Act relating to the press. I think the
noble earl himself made out most conclusively the ne-
cessity for a suspension of the liberty of the press in
India. There is no man who values more highly than
I do the liberty of the press, but circumstances may
occur in which we may pay too dearly for the boon. In
India, in such a crisis as the present, I can conceive
nothing more impolitic than to permit the unrestricted
liberty of the press to exist. I can conceive a state of
circumstances in which it might have had the effect of
arraying against us those native princes and brave men
in -India on whose support we have mainly depended.
But Igo further. I believe that in countries in the
state of India the greatest difficulty and danger we have
bad to encounter is that which arises from the disposition
of small minorities, who, finding themselves in a situa-
tion of great peril, and impolitic measures. (Gear,
hear.) We have seen it formerly in the West Indies
during the slave insurrection, when the great difficulty
was to keep the white people in order and prevent them
from driving the whole coloured population into hostility
So it was at the Cape, and so it is in every country
which is in this unfortunate situation. It is the natural
fear which small minoritieb who have been dominant
have when attacked by a portion of the majority, and
the danger lies in those fears urging them to have re-
coon* to measures which will combine the whole of the
rest of the population against them. I believe lam not
in error in saying that this state of feeling has of late been
shown very conspicuously among the white inhabitants of
CalCutta. While our countrymen in the East have de-
terved the highest credit for the manner in which they
have generally conducted themselves during this trying
beison, I am afraid that some at least of the inhabitants of
Calcutta are hardly entitled to the same praise. (Hear,
Lear.) I cannot help thinking that there has been a dis-
position among them to urge on the Government mea-
sures which would have been extremely unwise, and
fund have led to very bad effects. I say, therefore,
I. abselute'y necessary that the Government should
be armed with very stringent powers in this emer-
gency. It is absolutely necessary to have either a ren-
s irship or freedom. Whatever may be the inconve-
niences which may follow, it is necessary to adopt one
course or the other ; and I think the Government is
entitled to credit for using this restrictive power over
t'ie press with the minimum amount of inconvenience

I have thought it my duty to make these few observa.
Cons, because in this great crisis I think it is of national
importance that we should not fetter the- Indian Go.

veiniiient in the exercise of its discretion, and because I
think that the present Governor-General is fully entitled
to the encomium which my noble friend, who spoke last
blie pronounced upon his conduct. (Cheers.)
The Earl of DIA.LIIESBURY said he could not too
strongly protest against the attack made by the noble
earl opposite upon his (the Earl of Malmesbnry's) noble
friend (the Earl of Ellenborough), and against the prin.
siple which he had laid down that it was a vicious prac.

tic* to discus Indian subjects at this time in their-lord-

ships' house. (Hear, hear.) If the noble earl really

believed in the impropriety of that practice, he should

have sat down immediately after giving that advice, and
ant have gone on violating his own suggestion. There
was a contradiction between the noble earl's advice and
his conduct. But, be that as it might, he (the Earl of
altnesbury) thought they should really be abdicating
their duties and forgetting all the purposes for which
their lordships' house existed, if in such a momentous
Velssas this they were to be content, at the bidding
the noble earl, to sit there with their mouths closed
(Chef trhe.e)Go.rvheerunnoeher gave them permission to speak.
noble earl could not have chosen a more
hem moment for his buggestion ; for he (the
End of Maireesbury) wug
s there to express his belief
that if the advice tendered by hie noble friend (the Earl
of Ellenborongh) months
been followed many
of the unfortunate circumstances they had now to de-
plore would not have occurred, and
much of the fury of
the rebellion would have been abated
He
and that in"
Hs felt, ere
fore, it was the duty of their lordshi
discharging that duty they were doing service to the
temperately if they
country, to discuss these mattere,
of
could, and without party f.eeling or prejudice
of
kind. But they wore certainly not called on by any of
the circumstances of the ease to abdicate their coned_
tntional functions and keep silence on such occasions
(Hear.) Re thought the noble earl misunderstood his
(Lord Malmesbury's) noble friend (the EArl of
lt Ellen-
ect.
What his noble friend said wrough) in one resp
was that he objected to putting the rebellious Indians
on the same footing as the loyal Europears. (Hear.)
Ttiej, were antagonists and fighting for their very x-
istence, and what astonished the people of this country
was that the Governor-General, for some reason which
be had not explained, put the belligerents on the same
footing. • He was intending to discuss the question
whether natives and Europeans were to be placed on
the same footing, although, if be correctly gathered the 1
mtaning of the noble earl's observations, that was the

tendency of his opinion. But we being in the minority
in India, and the natives being in an enormous majority,
if to the advantage of superior numbers we conferred
upon them all the advantages which the laws conferred
upon Europeans the natural result would be a speedy
termination to our rule. However, upon the present
occasion he only desired to repeat his protest against the
declaration of the noble earl, which was not borne out
by his own conduct nor by that of his great ancestor
during the French war.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE concurred entirely
in the views expressed by the President of the Council
and of the noble earl below him (Earl Grey), and only
wished to correct a mistake into which the noble earl
who spoke last had fallen. He (the Marquis Clanri-
carde) had never objected to the discussion of any event
or political question, neither had his noble friend (Earl
Grey). What he had said and what his noble friend had
also said was, that it was not the duty of any member
of Parliament or public man to weaken the authority of
the Government in India when that authority was
placed in circumstances of extreme difficulty and
danger, while at the same time it was intended to con-
tinue the government of that country is the same hands.
To that opinion he still adhered. He objected to send-
ing out to the Indian world the idea that the public
of this country were dissatisfied with the conduct of those
who were intrusted %ill the management of public affairs
in India, and yet intended to leave those affairs to be
administered by the same hands.
The Duke of ARGYLL was desirous of referring to a
statement which had been made by the noble earl op-
posite (Lord Derby) with reference to the disbandment
of two regiments, the 19th and 34th, and about which
there appeared to have been misapprehensions. The
conduct of Lord Canning in reference to that affair had
been severely commented upon both in the speech of the
noble earl and in the pamphlet he had referred to, and
it was alleged that the interval which elapsed between
the !mutinies and the orders of disbandment were the
consequences of the Governor-General's hesitation and
vacillation. Now, the facts were these. The mutiny of
the 19th Regiment took place on the 26th or 27th of
February. It was a momentary panic, which almost
immediately passed away. There had been grave mis-
conduct on the part of the officer who commanded, and
in the interval which elapsed before the disbandment the
officers and men of the regiment expressed great regret
and repentance. That interval, however, was not owing
to any vacillation or hesitation on the part of the Go.
verner-General, but to the fact that at the moment there
was but one European regiment within 400 miles of the
station, and Lord Canning could not have taken serious
measures without previously obtaining reinforcements.
Within four or five days after hearing of the mutiny the
Ben'inck was sent to Rangoon to fetch her Majesty's
84th Regiment. In the meantime a military court of
inquiry into the conduct of the 19th Regiment was held,
and as soon as the Court had concluded its labours and
presented its report and the European troops in the
station had been reinforced, Lord Canning came to the
conclusion that it was necessary to disband the regi-
ment which had mutinied. Then a charge had been
made against Lord Canning that disbandment was
too lenient a punishment fur the offence, but what
other sentence he could have passed upon a
whole regiment it was difficult to discover, unless,
indeed, Lord Canning hai resorted to the same severe
measures which at Meerut originated the more fatal
portion of the recent outbreak. The whole experience
of the mutiny had shown that the Governor-General was
justified in the course he adopted. The mutiny of the
34th was a more serious affair. The men of that regiment
allowed their officers to be attacked, and in some cases
actually assisted in those attacks. In that case the in-
terval which elapsed between the occurrence of the out-
break and the disbandment of the regiment was occupied
by a military inquiry, which was completed on the 18th
of April, the mutiny having taken place on the 29th of
March. When the court-martial sent in its finding
nothing could be more embarrassing than the position in
which it placed the Governor-General, for it found one
part of the regiment to be guilty and acquitted the other
portion. Now, the most important of the misstatements
which were made in the pamphlet to which their lord-
ships' attention had been drawn was that which attri-
buted the resolution which had been taken by Lord
Canning relative to the disbandment of the 34th
Regiment to the example which had been set him by the
energetic conduct which had been displayed by Sir H.
Lawrence at Lucknow. Now, the fact was that the
minute of Lord Canning in reference to the matter had
been issued on the 30th of April, whereas the mutiny at
Lucknow had not taken place until the 3d of May. That
circumstance afforded, be thought, a satisfactory answer
to the charge that L )rd Canning had been stimulated by
the example of Sir H. Lawrence in the adoption of the
course which he had pursued. The facts of the case
went clearly to establish that Lord Calming actually
took those measures to which Sir H. Lawrence had only
threatened to have recourse, and that so far from its
having been his opinion that the former had acted too
harshly in dealing with the regiments which had
mutinied at Lucknow he had, upon the contrary,
found fault with him for being too lenient, and he
had therefore, he thought, laid before their lord-
ships grounds sufficient to prove that the state-
ments contained in the red pamphlet were
utterly erroneous, and that the inferences which were
drawn from them were based upon a total misconception
of the facts of the case. (near, hear.)
Earl GRA.NVILLE thou rose and said he was burn
it would be satisfactory to their lordships to know at
the earliest possible moment that a telegraphic despatch
had just been received from India. The substance of
that despatch he was happy to have in his power at once
to communicate to their lordships. The noble earl then
proceeded to read to their lordships one or two para
graphs from the despatch, announcing the safe arrival ol
a convoy of provisions at Lucknow, and the fact that
troops were being moved up quickly to its relief. (Hear.)
The Earl of DERBY said that so far as the inteli-
genes went it could not but be satisfactory to their
lordships ; but he might at the same time observe that
be bad hoped from the haste with which the noble earl
had risen to communicate the intelligence to the house,
that he was in a position to announce the complete relief
of the garrison of Lucknow. His object in again addres-
sing their lordships was, however, not so much to offer
any comment upon the despatch as to state, in reply to
the remarks which had just fallen from the noble duke
opposite, that he by no means proposed to defend every
statement which was made in the red pamphlet, while
he was prepared to maintain that consirterable and culp-
able delay had taken place with reference to the dis-
bandment of the 19th Regiment. He had cot complained
of the penalty which had been inflicted npan that regi-
ment as inadequate. The troops of which it was composed
had been guilty of a simple refusal to discharge their
duties, for which refusal they had afterwards expressed
considerable regret. But the conduct of the soldiers of
the 34th had been of a much more heinous character,
and yet the punishment awarded to both regiments had
been precisely the same.

The; Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked at what date
it had been proposed to send back the 84th Regiment to
Rangoon.

Tie Duke of ARGYLL was understood to say that
,he proposal was made on the Bth of May.

CASE OF MR. THOMAS.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved fora return
of the appointments held by Mr. Thomas in the civil
service of the East India Company in the month of Sept ,
1854, and of the appointments he may hold up to the
date of the latest accounts, distinguishing judicial from
any other offices ; alio, copies of any correspondence
that may have taken place between the Governor or
other superior authorities at Madras and Mr. Thomas
relative to the case of " Bhawanny Lallah v. Thomas,"
and the judgment delivered thereupon in the Supreme
Court of Madras by Chief Justice Sir Christopher
Rawlinson ; and also, copies of any correspondence that
may have taken place between the Home Government
and the Government of Madras upon the same case.
The motion wai agreed to.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter to 3 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 4 o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. Hassell took the oaths and his seat for Tavistock