The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-12 00:00:00

ally combatted, and 'said that in having recourse to
transportation we were thrown en the only colony
that would receive them, viz., Western Australia.
There we could not expect to send them long, and ho
cautioned the Government against sending large quan-
tities there at any one time, or they would be treated
the same by the colonists there as they were by the
people of Van Diernan's Land a short time since. Ad-
mitting West Australia continued favourable to the re•
ception now, it could not be reckoned on as a perma-
nence, and it was desirable that the best class of con-
victs should be sent there. This question would come
before the house in a plainer form a few years hence,
when they would have to deal with their incorrigibles,
because there would always be a class of criminals it
would be impossible to let loose on society. He did not
mean to advocate imprisonment for life, nor did he think
the public would tolerate it ; but he thought places might
be found in which it would be possible to retain them
secluded from the world, and employ them in remuner-
ative labour. Turning from those to the corrigible, he
found there was a dislike on the part of the people to
the present ticket-of-leave system ; bat hie answer to all
the objections that bad been urged against the system
was that it had not in reality had fair play. The theory
was one thing, and the practice another. Great com-
plaint was raised against the man's being able to gain
employment in consequence of his being under the sur-
veillance of the police, and no doubt a system of sur-
veillance was alien to our feelings ; hut the position of a
man under the ban 'of the law was in itself very distinct
from that of ordinary persons, and any supervision over
this man was no obstacle to his finding employment.
The house should recollect that there were two sides to
the question, and if these men had been allowed to get
into employment with forged characters, or in any under-
hand way, and after gaining the confidence of the masters,
had betrayed it, the sympathy of the people would have
changed sides. No doubt a difficulty would attend
the finding the whole of them with employment. It
was a Government question, but he thought that em-
ployment might be found for many of them on public
works after the expiration of their sentence, on a remu-
neration below that paid to the honest labouring popu-
lation by way of distinction between the two classes.
He thought the ticketsof-leave system defective in grant-
ing the ticket indiscriminately. No ticket ought to be
granted until a prisoner had passed through certain pro-
bationary stages, but a different test should be applied
than that lately acted upon, because it was well known
that the best conducted man in confinement was not the
best conducted when he regained his liberty. It was an
anomaly not to revoke tickets of leave except on convic-
tion, for if that be adhered to, they might as well dis-
charge the man at once, without any ticket. Any re-
turn to transportation upon a large scale would be found
not only inexped ent, but absolutely impossible. (Hear.)
Mr. BERESFORD HOPE thought the great merit
of this bill was its brevity and vagueness, as he thought
the only legislation tbat could be attempted in the pre-
sent state of things was of a tentative character.

Mr. MARSH made his maiden speech in favour of
transportation, and stated from his experience in Aus-
tralia, that the northern region of that territory would
be very suitable for receiving convicts. He suggested
that convicts should undergo some special training for
the colonies before they were sent there.
The bill was then read a second time.
INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.
Mr. ADDERLEY moved the second reading of this
biil, which he said was verbatim the same with that in-
troduced last session by Sir Strafford Nortbcote.
Mr. BOWYER opposed the bill because it interfered
with the parental authority of the poor in the case of
children who might be taken up on a pretended charge
of vagrancy or begging. He also condemned the bill as
a scheme for proselytising Roman Catholic children.
Lord ROBERT CECIL defended the bill, and charged
Mr. Bowyer with a desire to introduce the lazzaroni sys-
tem into England. He denied the charge of proselytism,
and said its only object was to reclaim children from the
paths of immorality and vice.
Mr. PALK and Mr. MULLINGS objected to vari-
ous details of the bill.

Sir GEORGE GREY would not oppose the second
reading of the bill, but he felt it would require careful
consideratiOn in committee.
After some further discussion, the house divided—
For the second reading 177
Against it lB

Majority for the second reading.... 159
The bill was ordered to be committed on Wednesday
week.

BANK ACTS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the
operation of the Bank Act of 1844 and of the Bank Acts
for Ireland and Scotland of 1845. The right hon. gen-
tleman said the motion was similar to one to which the
house agreed in the last session. The committee was
then appointed, but only one witness had been examined
when their further proceedings were interrupted by the
dissolution.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether it was the
intention of the right hon. gentleman to move that this
should bo a secret committee! The last was a secret
committee, and it was a sort of hocus pocu,s which he
did not understand.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it
had been the uniform practice of the house to have com-
mittees of this description committees of secresy. The
only difference between committees of secresy and com-
mittees not of secretly, but which excluded the public
during the examination of witnesses, was, that in the
former case members were not able to go into the
' room while the examination of witnesses was proceed.
ing. He did not attach any importance to the com-
mittee being a committee of secresy, and it was merely
in deference to the practice of the house that be moved
it should be so in the last session. There was nothing
in the relations between the Government and the Bank
of England which the Government desired to be con-
cealed ; but he believed it was thought questions might
be asked reflecting on the credit of the Bank, or involv-
ing matters which it might not be desirable to have dis-
cussed in public during the progress of the inquiry. If
the general opinion of the house was opposed to this
committee being a committee of ' secresy, he would ii ot
press that point. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MALINS rejoiced that no time had been lost in
proposing the reappointment of this committee, but he
should have been glad if the Government, taking into
consideration the difficulties existing in the money mar-
ket, had brought forward a measure on their own
responsibility, because he did not think that the labours
of the committee would lead to legislation during the
present session. At present a state of things existed
which was most detrimental to the commercial interests
of the country. The rate of discount of the Bank of Eng-
land on the 21st March last was 6 per cent., and on the
2d April it was raised to 6-4 per cent., at which rate it
had since remained, and one day last week the Bank of
England had refused to make any advances upon Govern-
ment securities. It was most essential that in a commer-
cial country money should be procurable at an easy rate,
and if the present state of things continued it would be
the destruction of small operators. What had led to the
present state of things was the. absurd division, by the
act of 1844, of the Bank of England into two depart-
ments, As he bad explained on a previous occasion, the
only resource which the Bank had to operate upon was
its reserve notes. and those were at present reduced to
3,500,0001., and gentlemen conversant with those mat-
ters would agree with him that when the amount of re-
serve notesfell below 5,000,000/. commercial transactions
in this country could never be carried on with advantage.
He would venture to say that war taxation had not been
so much felt by the commercial community as was the
present high rate of interest ; and the Government would
find that the commercial interest were beginning to be
alive to the importance of the question. The subject
seemed to him to be of such importance that he had felt
it hie duty to offer a few 'remarks to the house—(hear)—
and his principal object in rising had been to express the
hope that the Government would lose no time in bringing
for Ward a measure upon the subject, and that they would
not consider that having appointed this committee they
had discharged all their duty. His suggestion was that
we should have by law the power of relaxing the act of
1844, and so important did he consider the subject to be
that unless he saw the progress made by the committee
was such as to enable the Government to higislate dur-
ing the present session, and if the existing pressure in
the money market should continue,- be should, before
the close of the ses,ion, bring the whole subject under
the notice of the house, and submit to it a resolution for
its approval.

Mr. T. HANKEY said that from the observations
which had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman
who had just spoken, one would be inclined to conclude
that absolute ruin had been brought upon the mercantile
community by the operation of the Act of 1844 ; but he,
for one, did net believe that the general rate of interest
bad anything whatever to do with the working of that
Act. He did not wish that the opinion should prevail
out of doors that great commercial distress existed when
such was really not the case ; and in corroboration of his
opinion upon the subject he might add that when in Man-
chester the other day he had been informed upon the
best authority that the high rate of interest had bad no
effect whatsoever upon trade, which was in a most
thriving condition in Manchester, Liverpool, and in
other great commercial towne. His own experience in
London went to confirm that statement.

Mr. HUDSON expressed it to be his opinion that to
make the proposed committee one of secrecy would be
an useless proceeding, inasmuch as the committee of
1844, of which he had been a member, had been a
secret committee, and yet all the evidence which had
been taken before it had been published to the world.
Sir R. Peel had attended most assiduously upon that
committee, and the acquisition of a great deal of infor-
mation had been the result of it 3 labours. He therefore
?mild not understand why further inquiry into the sub-
ject should be instituted, and he thought that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer should at once legislate with re-
spect to it, if legislation should be deemed to be necessary.
Mr. A. AYRTON contended that the proposed in-
quiry should be conducted with the utmost vigour and
should embrace within its scope every subject connected
with the Bank of England, and the relation which it bore
to the trade and commerce of the country. He was of
opinion that, as there was no necessity for immediate
legislation upon the matter, it would .be highly expe-
dient that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should at
once introduce any measure in reference to the Act of
1844. The Bank Charter was now gm nted in perpetuity
:
with the liability to be redeemed whetever Parliament
should deem it desirable to take that courst.:. and he might
state that he had been in communication with many
gentlemen of considerable authority upon th,, question
in the city of London who believed that that charter
might be altogether abrogated with great advant,lge to
the community. There were others, however, who
thought 'that the Bank of England should again
charged with the 'management of the whole currency of
the kingdom, and that such control would enable it to
relieve the existing commercial distress. He was not
one of those who deemed that such a scheme would be