The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-30 00:00:00

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to allow that measure to/pass, but he bowed to the determi-
nation to which they arrived, and he was perfectly ready to
give his co-operation to her Majesty's Government in pass-
ing the partial measure they had now introduced. He as-
sumed that the Government had no very extensive scheme
of Parliamentary reform to bring forward; first of all be-
cause he thought that recent experience might have shown
them that small boroughs were not without their use in the
political system of the country, and they might now possi-
bly be glad to find six Richmonds in the field. (Laughter.)
But he was also inclined to suppose that no such scheme
was in view, from the assurance given by—he did not know
whether he might yet call him the noble earl whom they
might shortly expect to have the honour and satisfaction of
seeing in that house, and whom all their lordships on both
sides, he was sure, would be glad to see amongst them.
(Cheers.) That noble lord had expressed his opinion very
candidly that there was no use in bringing forward a mea-
sure of reform unless there was a strong feeling in favour
of it on the part of the public, and he represented very cor-
rectly that there was no such feeling in the country, and
therefore that there was no such temptation held out, He
(the Earl of Derby), formed the conclusion also, not only
from what the noble lord had said but from what he had
done ; for the noble lord had selected that precise moment,
he supposed like another Astraea, disgusted with the follies
and iniquities of the lower world, to leave it, and was about
to rise to a higher, calmer, and, he (Lord Derby) hoped, a
purer atmosphere. (Laughter.) And he could not wonder
that the noble lord, who had devoted so many years and so
much attention to pulling down and building up the edifice,
should be glad to take the opportunity of finishing his
work at once by filling up the gaps which had so long de-
formed its beauty by giving the vacant seats to the West
Riding, South Lancashire; and Birkenhead. Of those
places he supposed it might be said that—
Extrema per illos
Justitia, excedens terris, vestigia fecit.
As the bill at present stood he had no objection to offer to
it, and he had no doubt it would give very general satisfac-
tion. Certain alterations he believed would be needed, first
of all to make it English and next to make it sense— (a laugh)
—and they should be made in committee. Seriously, how-
ever, he did hope that whatever might be the ulterior views
and ulterior wishes of her Majesty's Government, they had
paused on the subject of Parliamentary reform in the course
they had been pursuing, and that the last few years would
be a warning to the present and all future Governments not
to bring forward promises too hastily, nor to pledge the
name of the sovereign to the introduction of any measure
which they did not seriously think they should be able to
carry. Certainly in 1858 he (Lord Derby) had thought
himself bound earnestly and sincerely to apply himself to
the introduction of a measure which he hoped would have
given satisfaction to moderate men ; but that attempt had
not met with the success he had anticipated. Her Majesty's
Government, no doubt with equal earnestness and sincerity,
had also applied themselves to the task, and they had
equally failed. He ti usted, therefore, that after the failure of
successive measures, introduced by successive Governments,
it was now clear that no one was under any pledge to deal with
the subject ; but that it was one which must be left to the dis-
cretion of each Government to introduce or not as they
thought best, and that no one would be open to any reproach
for abstaining from an attempt to dispose of so difficult and
delicate a question. (Cheers )
Earl GRANVILLE entirely agreed with the noble earl
that it was not desirable to refer the bill to a select commit-
tee. The other house had always objected to adopt such a
course with regard to any measure affecting the constitution,
and though this house was no doubt bound to oppose any
measure affecting the composition of that assembly, if it
seemed to their lordships to be contrary to right principle,
their lordships would otherwise beinaturally disposed to re-
ceive from the other house the proposition which it thought
best for filling up the number of its members. Unless,
therefore, the object of the amendment was to procure the
rejection of the bill altogether, it was not likely that any
useful result would accrue from referring it to a select com-
mittee ; and he trusted that his noble friend would with-
draw his proposal. It was very agreeable to her Majesty's
Government to receive the approbation of the noble lord,
and it at least proved them to have been actuated in this
matter by no party motives or intentions. With regard to
the changes which had been made in the bill in the other
house, he must say that they were not after all of a very
grave character, for they merely transferred to the West
Riding the seat proposed to be given to Chelsea and Kensing-
ton. If he had known that the noble earl intended to make
so pointed an allusion to Lord J. Russell, he should have
been tempted to postpone the bill once more till to-morrow,
when he trusted he should have the honour to lead his right
hon. friend into their lordships' house, where he expected he
would receive that welcome which was never refused to men
that were eminent in any line of life, and that was most cer-
tainly due to one who had played so great a part in the di-
rection of the affairs of this country, and whose public repu-
tation was combined with so singularly high-minded a pri-
vate character. The noble earl reproached not only the Go-
vernment, but his own and some preceding Governments, for
having introduced reform bills which did not prove success-
ful. He entirely concurred with the noble earl that nothing
could be more unfortunate than lightly to introduce mea-
sures of reform without a reasonable hope and expectation
of being able to carry them. In saying that, however, he
was strongly opposed to any notion of finality; and he was
far from thinking that it would be impossible to improve
the constitution of the country, or that the franchise might
not from time to time be most reasonably and justly extended
amongst the working classes of the community. Still he
believed that it would be rash for any Government before-
hand, and without reviewing all the circumstances of the
case, to pledge themselves to a reform bill without having
some probable means of carrying it into law. (Hear, hear.)
Their lordships then went into committee.
Lord STRATHEDEN moved to omit clause 1, but
Their lordships negatived the motion without debate or
division.

On clause 5,
The Earl of DERBY said he had the greatest respect for
the present Speaker of the House of Commons, whom he
had known for 50 years. Thirty-five years ago he had tra-
velled with him, and the right hon. gentleman bad subse-
quently been a member of a small but select party of politi-
cians who had been known as " the Derby Dilly." (Laugh-
ter.) At the same time the clause left too much to the right
hon. gentleman's discretion, for it male it optional with
him to withhold the writ till before the next general elec.
tion, which was exactly the time when it was most desirable
that it should not be issued, He begged to propose, there-
fore, that the clause should be made to run so that it should
be incumbent on the Speaker to issue the writ a 3 soon as
might be after the passing of the bill.
This amendment was agreed to, and the rest of the clauses
were also passed, with a few verbal amendments.
The Enlistment in India Bill was read a second time.
The Tramways (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill was read
a third time and passed.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATION ACT AMENDMENT
BILL.

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved the second
reading of this bill, the object of which was to give pre-
cedence to the mayor at all meetings of the borough justices.
Lord WENSLEYDALE opposed the bill, and moved
that it be read a second time that day three months.
Earl GRANVILLE supported the bill, which was op-
posed on the ground that it would creato ill feeling amongst
the borough justices.
The Earl of DERBY intimated that on a future day he
should oppose the clause giving precedence to the mayor.
Upon a division the motion for the second reading was
carried by a majority of 44 to 27.
The East India Civil Service Bill was read a third time.
The Irremovable Poor Bill and the Crown Suits Limita-
tion Bill were severally read a third time and passed.
REMOVAL OF IRISH POOR BILL.
Earl St. GERMANS, in moving the second reading of
this bill, said its object was to mitigate hardships which it
was impossible altogether to prevent. It did not seek in
any way to alter or amend the law, but simply to regulate
the mode in which persons becoming chargeable upon Eng-
lish parishes should be removable to Ireland, His proposal
was based upon the reports of committees which sat in 1855,
1358, and 1859, and to show that this was a favourable time
for diminishing the facilities for the removal of the Irish
poor, ho stated that whereas in 1850 there were no fewer
than 77,000 Irish persons landed at Liverpool who were ap-
parently paupers, there were last year only 21 persons of
that description landed.
Lord REDESDALE did not oppose the principle of the
bill, but thought the details would require consideration in
committee.
The bill was then read a second time.
INDEMNITY BILL.
This bill also passed a second reading..
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.

The reasons of the Lords for insisting upon certain o:
their amendments to this bill were laid upon the table.
Their lordships adjourned at a quarter to 10 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS--YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following bills were read a third time and passed
Caledonian Railway (Cleland, Ste. Branches) ; Caledonian
Railway (Stonehouse Branch) ; Forth and Clyde Junction
R3.ilway; Savile Estato ; Westminster Life Insurance
Society (Dissolution) ; West of Fife Mineral Railway and
Charleston Railway and Harbour Companies.
RATING OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.
Captain JERVIS asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department what were the rules which had been
laid down at the Home-office with respect to recommending,
or otherwise, commuted allowances towards the payment of
rates for Government property in certain parishes P
Sir G. C. LEWIS said there was no exact proportion

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