The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-05 00:00:00

Tilt KIN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1861.

committee, to entirely do away With that necessity for the
annual renewal of the bills, Meaning merely the bill itself,
not the obligation to pay the money. He proposed to sub-
stitute for bills annually exchanged instruments of perma-
nent currency, having attached to them a number of cou-
pons, entitling the holder to receive the interest at the pro-
per time. These coupons might be renewal from period to
period, but the bill itself would remain in pot session of the
holder until, like a Bank note, it became worn from use,
and no longer convenient for circulation. In giving perma-
nency to this bill it was not intended to give permanency to
the currency of the bill. The bill would run on from year to
year without any renewal, but the currency would be re-
newed at the commencement of each year as it was now;
that was, the holder would be entitled to claim payment as
now, tut if he did not claim payment within the proper
time a fresh term of 12 months would commence, and so
on, toties qualm. Besides these changes, which would be a
great convenience to the commercial world, he also proposed
to alter the present arrangements, and to entrust the whole
of the money business connected both with the liquidation
of the bills and the payment of the interest and principal,
to the hands of the Bank of England, to be transacted as
part of the business of the Funded Debt. The holders of
these bills had materially suffered from the great range
in the fluctuations in the price of the bills. He did not
say it was possible to effect any great change in this
respect, but he was confident that something might be
done. Those fluctuations had not been so great as the
fluctuations in the price of the funds, or in the rate of com-
mercial discOunts, but still they had been considerable.
The right honourable gentleman then referred to a state-
ment of the minimum and maximum price of Exchequer
bills in each of the last 20 years, and said that there
were only five at those years in' which the price had not
fluctuated-as much or more than 30s. In 1841 the maxi-
mum fluctuation was 21s. ; in 1819, 265. ; in 1850, 18s. ; in
1851, 235. ; and in 18.54, 245. On the other hand there
were years in which the fluctuations were at or above 50s.
In 1845 the fluctuations went up to 595. ; in 1847, to 575. ;
and in 1853 to 90s. In the fourteen months from the begin-
ning of October, 1847, to the end of December, 1848, the
fluctuation was not less than 98s. in the price of Exchequer
bills. It was obvious that those fluctuations were much
connected with the difficulty of applying the natural remedy.
namely, raising the rate of interest. If the interest were
raised for a motivate period of time, that would be an in-
strument which would be more easily used, and by which
the discount would be more readily checked, but if they in-
terposed to check the discount by using a measure which
might cost the public at once £lOO,OOO or £200,000, and
might end in leaving Exchequer bills as much too high, in
reference to the state of the money market, as they were
previously too low; that, he must say, was a measure which
eould net be resorted to without considerable deliberation.
The last objection was the echeance of the bill, the days
when it could be liquidated being rather remote. In mer-
cantile transactions a bill for six months was considered a
very long bill; but Exchequer bills ran for twelve months.
The proposal he made was to enable the holders of these
bills to claim payment at a much earlier date than they now
could. Before 1838 the state of the law, with regard to the
presentation of bills, conformed to the original theory on
which their whole legal status was founded. They were
always made chargeable on the supplies of the year follow-
ing the year in which they were granted, and that being so,
the rule was, that they might be presented for payment on
any day from the close of the financial year in which they
were granted. This was not a convenient arrangement, as
Exchequer bills were presentable for payment at different
periods from the date at which they were issued. For example
Exchequer bills issued on the 6th of April were not present-
able for twelve months ; if they were issued on the 4th of
April they were presentable in payment of taxes after the lapse
of a single day. Practically the effect was this—Exchequer
bills were issued at various periods of the year, and conse-
quently a number of them were payable at short dates.
That was the state of the law before 1838 ; but in that year
a different rule was substituted. The rule established was
that Exchequer bills might be presentable in payment of
tax es at any period exceeding twelve months from the date
of their issue. The consequence of this was to destroy
altogether the privilege which holders of Exchequer bills
enjoyed, because as every bill was liable to be discharged in
money at the expiration of twelve months, it was not
likely that a man who could receive his money in direct
payment; votild undergo the roundabout process of pay-
ing it in liquidation of taxes. What he proposed was
that during the last six months of the year for which
Exchequer bills should have currency by law, those bills
should, at the option of the holder, be receivable
in discharge of any, claim for duties or taxes due to her
Majesty, This was an important provision 'which he
hoped the committee would adopt. The effect of it would
be this.. The Government issued Exchequer bills in the
middle of March, and again in the middle of
June. 'The holder of a March Exehequer bill would be able
to claim,that it should be received by the Government in
satisfaetion of any duties which might be :owing to the
Government in and after the middle of the follovving Sep-
tember, and until the middle of the March next year, when
the full twelve month;"-would have elapsed. The holder of
a June bill would be able to make the same claim in the
middle of December, and at any period following the middle
of December, and until the middle of the following June.
Thus these instruments would, in a very considerable de-
gree, have the character of six months' bills, and the holders
of both March and June bills would have the power of liqui-
dating a portion of them every quarter. There could he no
doubt that the substitution of this arrezegement would be
considered very desirable b 7 authorities on financial affairs.
Would it be attended by any inconvenience to the interests
of the State ? It might, perhaps, be feared that when *he
revenue was running short, the presentation of these bills
in lieu of money might produce a pressure on the public
resources, and expose us to some risk of danger with
regard to fulfillingour engagements. He, however, did net
think there was any ground for that apprehension. He had
a :statement showing the practical working of the system
during yearswhenlExchiquer bills were presentable for
payment of duty. after short periods. From the conclusion

of th 3 war to 1825 it happened that considerable quantities

were presented, but they did not cause any inconvenience
to the State. There werecertain.natural limits within which
the privilege was usually exercised. Exchequer bills were
held almost exclusively in London, and as-they were pre-
sented chiefly in payment of customs duties, it would be
extremely difficult to make use of them in that way on a
scale so extensive as to produce inconvenience to the public
revenue. By the second resolution be proposed that the in-
terest should b& half-yearly instead of yearly. That would
be a most useful proposition. A great but indirect advan-
tage of it would be that the Minister of Finance, in rectify-
ing the position of tacbequer bills in the market, would
henceforth naturally and regularly raise the rate of interest.

not for the unexpired part of 12 months, but for the unex.

pired part of six months. That being the case, he might
venture more freely than he now did to raise the-rate of in-
terest. He had been obliged to trouble the committee with
a number of these details, because the proposition was one
of considerable importance. He was not aware that he need
go any further than to say he should be very happy to give
any explanations which any hon. member might ask of
him. But he must say one word with reference to the no•
tice given by the hon. baronet the member for Evesham
(Sir H. Willoughby), who intended to move as an addition

to the 6th resolution, " That the Commissioners for the
National Debt should not be empowered to fund any Ex-

chequer bills without the previous consent of Parliament."
He did not wish to oppose such a resolution, but, on the
other hand, he hoped to induce the hon. member to with-

I, draw it. The motion'of the hon. baronet was to prevent
the Commissioners of the National Debt :from funding
.Exchequet bills. He was himself friendly to the, principle
of such a proposition, but last year he included a provision
for this purpose. But a provision which was very conve-
nient in a measure relating to the general finances of the
nation would not, he thought, bo convenient in tho measure
now before the house.. In point of fact, it was too much
and too little. It would be limited to one description of Ex-
chequer bills, and he meant those that were ordinarily and
habitually dealt with in the open market, and it would be
very inconvenient to mix up legislation on these bills with
other bills that were, scarcely dealt in by the public, but
which were of very great importance in regulating the
finances of the country-7he meant the two descriptions of
bills, deficiency Exchequer bills and ways and means Ex-
chequer bills. By far the most objectionable description
of power possessed by the Commissioners of - the National
Debt was that of funding deficiency Exchequer bills and
ways and means Exchequer bills, because the practical
effect was that the deficiency on the year was added to
the funded debt of the country without the knowledge of
Pediment. It would not do to leave that' power in ex-
istence and it the same time to deal with a minor power
in a bill of this kind. What he wished the hon. baronet
b do was to bring forwardhis proposition on, a more suit- I

able occasion. He need hardly say that when a Government
had proposed by Act of Parliament to part with this power,
a representative of the Government would hardly think

himself justified in using it.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said one of the propositions in
these resolutions would add greatly to the' convenience of
the holders of Exchequer bills, and also save some expense
to the Governmt nt in their not being called upon for the

renewal of the,wholo amount. This was one of the pTopa►

sitions recommended by the committee on public moneys

which sat four years ago. He asked whether the right hon.

gentleman would take an early opportunity of carrying out

the recommendations of that committee.
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS said he would take the
opportunity of expressing, in the name of the monetary in-
terest in the City, a general approbation of the resolutions.
He thought, however, he might apply to the case a homely

maxim, and say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
shut the stable-door after the steed had been stolen. It
might be useful to review briefly the causesof. the discou-
ragement that had fallen on Exchequer bills, and he be-
lieved that it might be tracei to an error committed so far
back as 1853. Exchequer bills at that time enjoyed an inte-
rest of 3 per cent., and Were at a preruitim of 7s. or Bs. and
an attempt was made to reduce the interest ton point which
prevented thepi floating in the market, and some three mil-
lionswera paid oft. Since that time there had -been a great
increase of floatseeirities. of another description, East
India debentii;ee and railway debentures, and there was no
longer an induceraeut- tp bankers and ittpitalisiSio hold. Ex-
chequer bills besriAa al9w rate of interest. There.was some
1

expectation that the prospect of the payment of interest in
six months would raise the estimation of Exchequer bills
when the present discouraging state of the money market
would have been dissipated, and when that improvement
had taken place they would not hear that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had the mortification to acknow-
ledge that a large amount of Exchequer bills had
been sent in for payment at a time when it was inconve-
nient to the State to pay them. He might state, on the part
of capitalists generally, that there was a repugnance to
sending in Exchequer bills for payment at a profit of a few
shillings, when doing so might be inconvenient to the Go-
vernment.
Mr. CAYLEY approved of the resolutions, and said one
effect of them would be that bankers would be able to ex-
tend more accommodation to their customers.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the resolutions proposed to
give the holders of Exchequer bills the right to receive their
money at the end of the year. Would there be a corres-
ponding right on the part Jf the Treasury to call in the bills
at the expiration of the year, supposing the holders of the
bills did not want to get their money ? If the bills might
be hoarded the Government might be inconvenienced by
the payment at one time of a large amount for taxes.
Although it might be true that these bills were now held in
London, and that the customs duties paid in the port of
London were not very large, yet when they could be paid in
for duties they might and probably would be held to some
extent in Liverpool.
Mr. T. HANiCEY thought that the holdersof Exchequer
bills had a right to expect some benefit at the hands of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, for he did not believe any
Chancellor of the Exchequer had done so much to disparage
this class of security as had the right hon. gentleman who
now filled thlt office. Since ho reduced the rate of interest
to a penny a day they had never held the place which they
were formerly accustomed to hold as one of the most desir-
able securities a banker could hold. It was true that at the
end of a year the holder might demand payment, but prac-
tically that was always met by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer raising the rate of interest. Suppose a large amount
of these bills were sent in for payment, or for duties, how
could they be paid out of the consolidated fund ? In some
way or other they must be met out of the supplies, or by a
loan. He agreed with the hon. member for Evesham that
these bills ought not to bo added to the funded debt with-
out the consent of the house, and Ira hoped his hon. friend
would not withdraw his resolution. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer said that Exchequer bills could always be kept
up by their being received in payment of duties, but he
thought the only legitimate way of keeping up these bills
was by varying the interest from time to time. If the bills
were not paid in for duties, what was to become of them ?
He should recommend that the interest should be paid at
the Bank of England, so as to prevent the inconvenience of
persons having to go to the West-end for it. That was the
favourite plan of the late Mr. Masterman, and it was fre-
quently urged by him upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
He hoped, too, that the interest would be made payable per
annum instead of de die in diem. There was no other se-
curity where the interest was not an annual one, and it was
just as easily calculated that way as per day. The result
of the present plan was to compel the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, whenever he did raise the rate of interest, to
raise it by a larger sum than he might otherwise have de-
sired. The smallest increase was a farthing a-day, which
would be 7s. 6d. per year; whereas an increase of 2s. or 3s.
would probably have been sufficient for his purpose.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said there was no doubt that
Exchequer bile had received a great blow from the sudden
change in the rate of interest; but not greater than must
be given to them by secret operations on the part of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. Until they declared that
all transactions in Exchequer bills must take place in the
light of day, they would do nothing. The late Mr. Goul-
burn had shown that by the action of the government
upon the Exchequer bill market, no less than seven mil-
lions of Exchequer bills had been converted into funded
debt, and that without the knowledge of the House of
Commons. By the last operations of the kind, £383,000 of
Exchequer bills had been funded at the very high rate of 99f;
and another sum, £791,000 at 97g. He trusted that the right
hon. gentleman would give some pledge that ho would
deal with the subject in the course of the present session.
If he would, he (Sir H. Willoughby) should be delighted
to withdraw the resolution of which he had given notice.
During the four years 1838-41, the funded debt had
been increased through the medium of consolidated fund
bills, by the sum of £600,000, £500,000, another £500,000
and £600,000 ; and the House of Commons had all the while
been in the ludicrous position of knowing nothing whatever
of the transaction. What had taken place in 1838-41
might just as easily occur in 1861-4, and he repeated there-
fore that they would do nothing unless they put an end to
the possibility of such proceedings. He thought the daily
interest was convenient, and that it would be desirable to

retain it.
Mr. GLYN certainly agreed with everything that had
fallen from the hon. baronet on the subject of concealed
operations in the Exchequer bill market. As to the calcu-
lation of interest, he thought it would be just as easy to
compute it per annum as per diem. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer this year introduced two measures—the present
one and that for abridging the period of closing the Bank
books previous to the payment of dividends—both of which
he considered to be most material practical reforms as re-
garded the public debt of this country. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had to
I express his great gratification at the general approval of the
substance of those resolutions. In reply to his hon. friend
the member for Lambeth, he had to repeat what he had
stated on a former evening—that he intended to introduce
a bill having for its object to give effect to many of the most
important recommendations of the Public Moneys Commit-
tee. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the question of the
relative merits of the per diem and the per annum calcula--
tions of interest in the case-of Exchequer bills, he was open
to conviction. (Hear, and a laugh.) He had found it diffi-
cult to ascertain what the general wish was. He believed
that this was the first time the question had been introduced
into that house, and perhaps the effect of its having been
introduced there might be to place him in possession of the
general feeling. There could be no difficulty in making
provision in the bill for altering the mode of computation,
if such should be thought desirable. (Hear, hear.)
The general effect of the changes which he was about
to make would be that Exchequer bills would be capable of
liquidation through the medium of taxes in six months;
capable of liquidation for money at the end of 12; and that,
commencing another year, a new term would commence
the same as the former. (Hear.) An hon. member had asked
him whether at the end of 12 months there would be a cor-
responding option on the part of the Government to call
them in. He did not propose to include in the bill any pro-
position of that kind. With respect to any apprehended in-
convenience from the payment of revenue by Exchequer
bills, he would observe that there would be a threefold
issue. There would be a power of re-issue by arrangement
with the Bank of England, or otherwise; there would be a
power to allow the bill to become extinct if public conve-
nience allowed of that course ; an i there would be a power
of keeping it afloat by raising the rate of interest. His
hon. friend the memb.n. for Greenwich (Alderman Salo-
mons) had alluded to the injury done in 1815 by reducing
the rate of interest, and said that a great amount was at
that time presented for payment. It was true that the
effect of reducing the rate of interest from lid. a day to Id.
produced a diminution out of all proportion to what one
would have supposed ; but at the same time it did not lead
to the presentation of a single bill for payment. It was on
the 15th September the interest on the March bills was re-
amed; and in March not one bill was presented for pay-
ment. He granted that in June £3,000,000 were presented,
but then a most important change in the money-market
had taken place between March and June. That period had
been marked not only by a progressive decline in Exche

pier bills, but by an alteration in the value of other secu-
rities, and among other things by an alteration in the rate

of discount in the Bank. The truth was that this was a
long history, and its whole exposition would require a
great deal of detail. The usual amount of the unfunded

debt before 1838 was from £24,000,000 to £30,000,000 of
Exchequer b ills. It was after 1838 that the greatest re-
duction took place. It was reduced from ..t!,4,000,000 in
1839 to £18,000,000 in 1842 ; and it continued at about
£18,000,000 till 18.53. It was then for the moment reduced

by the presentation of £3,000,000 for payment. These were

re-issued in 1861, and it was a fact that no great change
took place in the amount of Exchequer bills between 1812
_ _ _ _ _

and the close of the Russian war. The hon. baronet (Si;
H. Willoughby) asked him, was it his intention to bring in
a bill to take away the powers, now vested in the National
Debt Commissioners, of funding these bills to which he had
_ _

referred ? He could not give any positive pledge on that
point, but he was still entirely of the opinion which he had
expressed many years—namely, that those powers ought to
be taken away.
The first, second, and third resolutions weKe then
agreed to.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he pro-
posed to transpose the fourth and fifth resolutions, and to
alter somewhat the language of both. What stood as the
fifth resolution would stand as the fourth, and he proposed
to make it read as follows :—" That during the last six
months of each year during which such bills shall have
currency by law such Exchequer bills shall be receivable
for duties granted to her Majesty."
The resolution as amended wris agreed to.
The last resolution, altered as follows, was also agreed
to : —" That when such Exchequer bills shall be paid off or
received for duties, the Commissioners of her Majesty's
Treasury may issue a like amount of Exchequer bills to re-
place them."

The resolutions were ordered to be reported, Mid the
house resumed.

ITALIAN POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.
On the motion that the house go into committee cif
supply,
Mr. HENNESSY called attention to the active interfer-
ence of her Majesty's Foreign Secretary in promoting Pied-
montese policy, and to its effects. Adverting to the fawner

conduct of Lord J. Russell, whom he charged with a terror
of Austria and a morbid desire for interfering in Italy, he
accused the noble lord of continuing in the same unhappy

course, still truckling to Aukria and imprudently interfer-
ing in Italy. He entered at length into the proceedings of
Piedmont, all of which, both politically and financially,

were adverse to good government, and warmly reprobated

the policy of the British Administration in aiding and en-
couraging those proceedings. He detailed at considerable
length the injurious fiscal effects of the alteration of duties
and other measures adopted by Sardinia since the annexa-
tion. The injury reacted upon British commerce, and yet
more on that of other nations. The honourable gentle-
man then referred to the attack upon the kingdom of
the Two Sicilies, and the issue of that attack ; the manner
which the King of Sardinia had fulfilled the solemn obliga-
tions into which he had entered, and to the more important
question of what was then the conduct of the noble lord.
The King of Naples occupied a strong position on the Vol-
turno, and all the correspondence proved that, were it not
for the assistance given to General Garibaldi by the Pied •
mentese, in his attack upon him, the King could have put
down insurrection. They had it on the authority of news-
paper correspondence of the 10th September, that Garibaldi
had only 100 Neapolitans in his service fit to bear arms be-
fore he was joined by the Piedmontese, and the same organ
observed that the revolution was made for, and not by, the
Neapolitans. After the battle of the Volturno Gen. Gari-
baldi telegraphed to King Victor Emmanuel for 14,000
men. Gen. Garibaldi claimed the victory,though it amounted
only to the capture of two cannons, and, if a victory, was
gained by foreigners. It was an important question, how.
ever, who it was that captured those cannons. Through
the courtesy of the Board of Admiralty, he had received a
letter containing the report of Commander Forbes with re-
ference to the statement that those cannons had been cap-
tured by English. seamen of H.M.S. Renown. It appeared
that the demand for assistance first arose to the English
Garibaldians when the cannons were 200 yards from Santa
Maria. The English seamen rushed to the spot at the call,
and dragged the guns into Santa Maria. (Cheers.) The
British Minister had discovered the strongest Piedmontese
tendencies, but his language was not objectionable. Indeed,
it was rather creditable, but very different was that of the
British Minister at home. The peasantry of Sicily having
taken up arms in defence of their Sovereign, the noble lord
asked, in one of his despatches with reference to the bar-.
barons proclamation of General Cialdini, whether " the
peasantry had taken up arms for good reasons." Now that
question admitted of a simple answer, which was this,
that the arms were taken up by foreigners, and not by
native Sicilians. The noble lord declared in another place
" that the Italian revolution had been conducted with sin-
gular temper and forbearance." (Loud cheers from the
Government side.) That singular temper and forbearance
would not bear the reports which had reached this country
on the subject ; one English gentleman telling them, for
example, that 30 villages in the Abruzzi had been burned
to the ground, and another that in Sicily the nuns had been
forced to fly from the convents before the Sardinians. M.
Alexandre Dumas, who held an official appointment in Italy
under Garibaldi, and a paper called the Nomade, also gave
evidence on that question extremely unfavourable to the
wonderful temper and forbearance of the Italian revolution.
(Conservative cheers.) The ferocious despatch of General
Pinelli, which had excited so much horror in Europe, was
supposed to be answered by the allegation that he had been
dismissed by the Piedmontese Government. But his dis-
missal did not take place until three months after the issue
of that despatch, and he was not idle in the interim. In a
single village he shot 123 persons within a fortnight after
the date of the proclamation. By the brigade under his
orders, at another village, where one house streamed with
blood and was riddled with balls, 17 prisoners were imme-
diately shot; and at Cumano, where 150 prisoners were
taken, 50 were instantly shot, the rest consigned to prison,
and some of them subsequently sentenced to death. At
another loyal village, where some of the peasantry h.ad been
seized and sentenced to be shot, the pastor ventured to in-
tcteede for them on the ground that they were ignorant
persons, who had never heard of Victor Emmanuel, and
only knew Francis 11. The colonel did not even deign to
reply to that appeal, but ordered the pastor to be shot with
the others—an order that was carried out within the next
hour. He (Mr. Hennessy) had thought it right to call at-
tention to these facts because the proclamation was alluded
to in the noble lord's despatches, though the house was, he
feared, not aware of the real facts. The noble lord also
referred in the despatches to the late elections in Italy, but
as that ground had been already so well travelled over in
the other house of Parliament, he would not do more than
present a few figures in order to enable the house to judge
of the nature of these elections. Taking the elections in
Naples, it wax extraordinary to find how few persons voted
out of large populations in Southern Italy. Liberio Ro-
mano, now Minister at Naples, received only 119 votes.
Castellano, another Piedmontese Minister in Southern
Italy, 99 votes. Rossi only 60 votes, and Salecette only 60
also. ln places with a population of 100,000, not more than
119 persons voted for the members to be sent to the Pied-
montese Parliament. At Prancenga, a populous place, the
Piedmontese cfficials inscribed only 1,213 electors on the
list, a very small proportion, but of that small number only
68 voted. At Milan the total number of voters was 234, and
at Florence 144. Most members of that house knew Fie-
nonce, it was a beautiful and formerly a gay and busy city.
Its beauty remained, but its gaiety had departed ; when he
was last there it was gloomy, deserted, and miserable, under
Piedmontese rule. Besides this, the way in which the
returns were dealt with by the Government were rather
emarkatee. mgnor bath, one or the processors at Oxford,
went to Italy, and was returned as a member of the Par-
liament for one place by 151 out of 162 votes. But Signor
Saffi was a Republican, and Count Cavour is just now
rather afraid of Republicans, though he has used them as
his tools before. The Piedmonteso official in charge of the
election was, therefore, directed to institute a " scrutiny,"
and that "scrutiny" resulted in his striking off 121 out of
154 votes, and so Signor Saffi was unseated. Another point
that had been raised was, why the King of Naples did not
defend Naples, or, leaving it, retire to Sicily ? He had been
taunted by the noble lord for not doing so.—(Lord J. Russell
—I never said so.) He was glad to hear the noble lord's dis-
claimer; but if the noble lord did not other members of the
Government did, or at least members on the opposite side, and
it was known the press of this country had done so. He would
tell the house why the King had not defended Naples or
gone to Sicily. It was because the noble lord had in de-
spatches, some of which were net before the house, but of
the contents of which he (Mr. Hennessy) was aware, had
actually interfered to prevent the King of Naples from mak-
ing any attempt either to regain Sicily or to defend Naples.
To those despatches Liberio Romano, then Minister of the
King of Naples—but in the pay of Piedmont, and the
greatest traitor in Europe—referred, when the King was
deliberating whether he should defend Naples or not; and
it was the tone of these despatches, together with the large
British fleet which then lay in the Bay of Naples, which in
all probability prevented that defence from going made. Ho
said, then, that he had proved his case against the noble
lord who proposed non• intervention, but who had again
and again actually interfered in the affairs of Italy.
Mr. LAYARD trusted the house would not think he
was trespassing on their indulgence if he addressed them
for a short time; but he had special reasons for doing so.
He took a deep interest in the cause of Italy, and although
he knew somewhat more about it than the hon. gentleman
who had just sat down, he promised them he would not de •
tain the house at such length as he had. It should be with
a policy in accordance with the opinions of the country. He
was ready to divide the house upon the question. He did
not want to make it a party question. Upon those grounds
and the general sympathy which he had for Italy, he should
like to press the motion. He did not mean to say anything
disparaging to the Pope ; he believed him to be a good man;
but there was a feeling on the Continent that there was a
strong prejudice in this country against the Pope. Now,
he denied that. He had no prejudice himself against the
Pope. On the contrary, he wished to see the Pope inde-
pendent ; but there was no man of great and high position
in Europe who was not averse to the spiritual and temporal
power being united in the Pope.
Mr. HENNESSY—Zechi, the greatest astronomer in
Europe, was favourable to the union of the temporal and
spiritual power in the Pope.
Mr. LAYARD—Zechi was a Jesuit. (Laughter.) He
knew not from what source the hon. gentleman got his
information—he know not whether the hon. gentleman
spoke Italian; but this he knew, that there seemed to exist
great ignorance in the minds of some hon. gentlemen re

specting the state and government of the people in the
Papal States. He was sorry to see that the hon. gentleman
the member for Dungarvan was not in his place. That hon.
gentleman was very eloquent, and had been in Italy at the
same time he (Mr. Layard) was there, and he had written
_ _

• a
book on Italy; but he must say that the hon. gentleman,
with all his eloquence, had not shown much knowledge in
his book of the state of feeling in Rome. The hon. gentle-

man had spoken in his book of the Castle of San Michell° ;
but he (Mr. Layard) could state to the house that, to his

knowledge, there had been an artist of great celebrity con-
fined in that castle, and subjected to the greatest mortifica-
tions for his political opinions. The hon. gentleman here
referred to official documents and published works, show-
ing that strong prejudices were enccuraged in the minds
of the Christian population in Rome against Jews and
other denominations not Christian, and contended that the
Sardinians were justified in making ingress in the Papal
States. What, he asked, happened at Bologna ? Why,

in one morning 126 perao ns- accused of political offences
_ _

were shot by the Austrian power. It might be said that
tho Pope was not responsible for those excesses; but he

would tell the house how the Pope was responsible. In
the case of shooting a boy who was under legal age by
tho Austrians, the Pope gave the Austrian general who

allowed the act absolution. The hon. gentleman then

proceeded to show that the accused prisoners had not had a

Fair and impartial trial. Their trial was by Germans, and

lie proceedings were carried on in the German language,

He then referred to the massacres at Perugia, and while he
- -

did not attempt to defend them, he must say that great
. _ _

provocation had been given to cause them. There had been
also great atrocities committed in other places, and he

granted by both sides--by Sardinians as well as by the
Pope's troops. The hon. gentleman opposite would perhaps
say he did not believe his statements, but he might in re-
turn say, whether the hon. gentleman did or did not, he did
not believe the hon. gentleman's assertions. The popula-
tion in the Papal States, finding their government intole-
rable, had cast it off. The hon. member had spoken of 4e
state of trade in these dominions. He (Mr. Layard) well
remembered Ferrara and the Legations being perfect de-
serts. Last year, when there, he had found a complete
change. Men could breathe freely, and industry was im-
proving everywhere. He found Bologna the centre of

ways, and the trade increasing. Mr. 0 ttway, writing from
the spot, stated that as soon as Lombardy was annexed to
Piedmont, commerce would extend, the more especially
when the Austrian tariff was superseded. It now appeared
that the articles most in request in that portion of Italy,
under the new tariff, were articles of British commerce.
While Lombardy had thus improved, the dominions of the
Pope presented a totally different spectacle. There were
only two railways, one from Rome to Civita Vecchia, and
the other from Rome to Frascati ; and as to the security
enjoyed on the latter railway, it appeared that the first train
which ran had been stopped by brigands, and the passene
gers and baggage ransacked. If they turned to Naples,
there the prisons were filled with men who were kept in
ignorance of the offences for which they were incarce-
rated. It was said that some sympathy should be shown
for a young king who had nothing left him but the
courage of despair. But was no sympathy due to the tens
of thousands of unhappy people who had been victims to
his tyrannical Government. He would not dwell upon
the state of Venice and Venetia, but even here it appeared
that two young girls accused of insulting the Austrian flag
had been flogged, and the authorities of the place threa-
tened with the bastinado. A proclamation was issued
against the population of Mantua, and political enmity fol-
lowed a young lady, whose misfortune it was to encroach
upon supposed taste by wearing garments more copious than
had been the fashion. (Laughter.) The times for reforms,
then, had gone by. The secret history of 1848 would no
doubt be made known, and although the Pope would turn
out to be innocent, he (Mr. Layard) believed that evil coun-
cillors about him had aroused the indignation of the popu-
lation. Papal promises had been unfulfilled, even in the
minutest details. The Pope had promised that a municipal
body should be elected, but its election was hampered by
the condition that the electors should first have their good
political conduct certified. The hon. member was aware
that a man could not go into the Campagna without a cer-
tificate that he had taken the sacrament and had been to
Confeesion. Reform in Naples, then, was out of the ques-
tion under such a system. The worst thing ever uttered
by a Governmentffell from the lips of Baron Poerio
upon the occasion of the King having stated his will-
ingness to grant a Constitution, " Government, said Baron
Poerio, is foun led on tradition. The tradition of the
Neapolitan Government is perjury. (Hear, hear.) The
King will show his legitimacy of descent by perjury. A
man cannot perjure himself before he has taken an oath."
Naples, by its atrocious and stupid conduct, which spared
neither friend nor foe, had left herself without a friend
on whom it could trust. It was impossible to hope for re-
form in Venetia under such a state of things. What were
the two concessions which must precede reform ? The aboli-
tion of ecclesiastical privileges and ecclesiastical orders,
and the giving back of the land to the tillers by taking it
away from those who had reduced it to a desert. Such
concession he understood could notlbe made. It was said
that civilians preponderated in numbers over ecclesiastics,
but the courts of appeal were filled with ecclesiastical
judges, who enjoyed ecclesiastical protection, and in those
courts justice could be bought and sold. (Hear.) Natu-
rally enough the Italian people scouted the idea of an Ita-
lian Confederation after the peace of Villafranca. Ne a
potentate remained in Italy unsupported by Austrian bayo-
nets. (Hear, hear.) Where would the contemptible Dukes
of Tuscany and Modena have been but for Austrian bayo-
nets ? (Laughter.) If these Dukes had flung themselves
on the people—on the Liberal party—they might have re-
mained. (Hear, hear.) Victor Emmanuel was King of
Italy because he was not dependent on foreign bayonets.
He (Mr. Layard) believed that the king's ambition to form
a united Italy a commendable ambition, but he would not
have been King of Italy if the whole of the people had not
joined him. He took his stand from ;the first. He said,
" I will be an Italian king; I will place confidence in my sub-
jects ; I will give them their liberties, and will rely on them."
(Hear.) When the Confederation was proposed and re-
jected, the whole of Italy rallied round Victor Emmanuel.
He (Mr. Layard) was in the north of Tuscany when the
voting to which the hon, member had alluded was going
on, and he did not believe that a single man had recorded
his vote except in accordance with his conscience. (Hear.)
Who, indeed, had been elected to the Parliament of Tus-
cany. Let anybody go through the historic roll of great
men in Tuscany, and it would be found that not a single
name of importance was absent from this Parliament. At
the head of that Parliament during the interregnum was
Baron Ricasoli, a man of whom hon. gentlemen opposite
might be proud, who had visited this country to become ac-
quainted with our latest inventions in agriculture, in order
that he might benefit his countrymen with them, and
against whom even his adversaries could not utter a word.
(Hear.) In the legations likewise men of the highest cha-
racter had been elected. No set of men could be selected
who would more perfectly represent the feelings of the po-
pulations of Tuscany and the Legations. The most remark-
able fact was that the foremost men in this Italian move-
ment were irreproachable on the score of commercial
morality. There were no speculators on the Bourse to be
found among them, and not a finger of suspicion could be
pointed at them. Contrast such a state of things with the
normal state of Rome. There everything was bribery and
and corruption. If you wanted to see a public building or
co read a nook. in a public library, you must bribe. The
whole country teemed with bribery. Well, what was the re-
sult ? Throughout the whole of Italy the feeling in favour of
the King of Sardinia extended, and the movement was car-
ried by the men of the moderate party. The hon. member
spoke of intimidation being practised in Naples during the
time of the election, but he (Mr. Layard) could assert, on
the authority of the commander of the army, that at that
time there were not more than 22 soldiers in Naples. The
figures quoted by the hon. member were quite a mistake,
He thought the Government were quite justified in inter-
fering as they had done, and he believed the despatch of the
noble lord at the head of the Foreign .office correctly ex-
pressed the feelings of the English people. Looking at the
state of Italy he was not surprised at the men who had
sprung up to guide the affairs of that country.
They had a great constitutional Minister in Cavour,
and Garibaldi had been found to direct the energies
of the people. Had Italy shown herself unequal to
her position ? On the contrary, she had shown herself
equal to the emergency of the occasion. Then the mode-
ration of the people of Italy was shown in the moderation
of her Press. Italy united could not be French—dis-
united, Italy would always be French. He believed that
the Italians would now know who were their true friends
—namely, the Government and the people of England.
Such being his opinion, he could not take the same view of
the noble lord's (Lord J. Russell) despatch in reference to
Venetia as that taken by the hon. gentleman who opened
the debate. The hon. gentleman said that he believed the
feelings of the people of this country were in favour of the
policy of the Government in reference to Italy—namely the
moral support given to the Italians ; and he believed the
Italians would themselves feel that the best course which
could be adopted towards them would be for us to assist
them by moral force rather than by any other means, and
he trusted we would continue to act in this way, to enable
Italy to assume that position which she was entitled to hold
in the scale of nations.
Sir G. BOWYER. said that one instance would show
the nature of the statements made by the hon, gentleman
who had just addressed the house. He had alluded to the
publication of a decree by an official at Rome. Well, it was
true that a very foolish person did issue the decree in ques-
tion, but the moment it was seen by the Roman Govern-
ment the decree was withdrawn, and the person who issued
it was dismissed from his office. (Hear.) As to the case re-
ferred to about brigands stopping a railway, why the whole
thing was a hoax, and was well known to be so. When Ga-
ribaldi invaded the main land, the King of Naples was ad-
vised by the English Government to throw himself into the
hands of the Liberal party.

Lord J. RUSSELL—No, no ; it was the year before.
iSir G. BOWYER—Rather than let Naples be bom-
barded the King left, and when Garibaldi entered the city
was in consternation. Yes, when Garibaldi entered with
his gang of pirates in their red shirts the citizens were in
consternation. What was his first act? Why, he broke
into one of the churches, and introduced Gavazzi who
went through the ceremony of a mock Te Deuna. (Hear.)
The policy of Napoleon which her Majesty's Government
were fostering would lead to a union between Russia and
France for the partition of Europe. (Hear, hear.) He de •
nounced that policy, therefore, as contrary to the interests
of England, and tending to foster the ambition of Napo-
leon, and aid him to get the frontier of the Rhine, and to
possess himself of Antwerp, which had been described as a
pistol pointed at England. By supporting Louis Napoleon
they were alienating from us and paralysing the other
Powers of Europe. The Emperor wanted the frontier of
the Rhine and Belgium, and was steadily progressing from
one step to another till this country would be obliged to go
to war with him, when we could no longer put a good face
upon it. (Hear, hear.) Then it would be too late.
Mr.-E. JAMES moved the adjournment of the debate at
a quarter to 12 o'clock amidst loud cheers.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he was aware that many
hon. gentlemen wanted to speak, and that the debate might,
therefore not be concluded that night, but if they did ad-
journ it, he hoped it would only be till to-morrow (this day)
—for it was desirable that the interval should not be great
between debates on a question of so much importance. He
hoped, also, that it might be concluded to-morrow night so
that Thursday could be devoted to supply. There were
other notices of importance standing on the paper, which he
hoped hon. gentlemen would withdraw, in order that this
might be accomplished.
THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY AND SIR B.
WALKER.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Sir, I understand it to be the in-
tention of the Government to consent to the adjournment
of the debate on Italian affairs. Therefore, although lam
very sorry at this late hour to intrude on the house, I feel
compelled to ask the Government, and especially the noble
lord the Secretary to the Admiralty, to whom I have given
notice of my intention, for an explanation on a matter
which closely concerns the mode of transacting public busi-
ness as between this house and the Ministers, and which
from the nature of the circumstances I regard as very
urgent. I have reason to believe that it is not now too late

for the Government, if they should see fit, to change the
intention announced early in the evening. I allude to the
answer I received to a question which I put at the usual
hour—viz., whether or not I was to infer from the fact
that the. Narcissus frigate had left Spithead that the

Admiralty have permitted Sir B. Walker to leave England
without giving evidence before the approaching com-
mittee. I must remind hon. gentlemen of what has taken
place on this subject. I had occasion this day fortnight to
explain to the house the reasons which induced me to give
up my notice of motion for a committee to inquire into the
affairs of the Admiralty. In doing so I stated publicly
that I had a few days before spoken to the noble lord on
the subject, and I expressed my hope that Sir Baldwin
Walker would not leave England without giving evidence
before the committee. (Hear, hear.) I confess I
thought that public statement in the House of Commons
would have been enough to ensure that Sir B. Walker
would be examined as a witness, and I venture to say it
ought to have been enough. Nothing more occurred till
Thursday last. On that morning I was told by a friend that
I had better make some inquiry, for he understood that Sir
B. Walker was to leave England on the following Satur-
day. I could hardly credit that information, but I imme-
diately wrote a letter to my noble friend the Secretary to
the Admiralty to tell him that in the evening I meant to
put a question to him to learn whether that report VT2:B true.
When the debate came on that same evening, on the ine,,i7
of the hon. member for Portsmouth, that hon. member
anti-
cipated the question I was about to ask, and made an urgent
appeal to my noble friend on the importance of Sir B.
Walker's evidence, if the committee really was to be granted.
(Hear.) I followed the hon. member for Portsmouth later
in the debate, and, pursuing my written notice given in the
morning, also addressed an earnest appeal to the noble lord,
stating that Sir B. Walker was, if not the most important
witness, certainly the most important with only one excep-
tion, and that it was absolutely essential, if you were to
have an inquiry into the conduct of the Admiralty that he
should give his testimony. (Hear.) My noble friend spoke
immediately after me, beginning with a statement which I
confess very greatly surprised me. He said the noble duke at
the head of the Admiral tyhad been willing that Sir B. Walker
should, if necessary, be detained in this country, but that the
noble lord had applied to the hon. and gallant admiral who
was about to move for the committee, whether he thought it
necessary that Sir B. Walker should be so detained. But
that was not all. The noble lord said he had applied, not
to the hon. and gallant admiral only, but to " the other
members of the committee." Now, the committee was not
then, and is not now appointed. (Hear, hear.) What ar-
rangement, therefore, may have been going on with regard
to it I cannot say ; but, perhaps, the noble lord can tell us
what he meant last Thursday evening by stating that he
had applied to the hon. and gallant admiral and the other
members of the committee to ascertain whether they wished
that Sir B. Walker should be detained. The noble lord said
that the hon. and gallant admiral then expressed an opinion
that the evidence of Sir B. Walker before the Dockyard
Commission would be sufficient for the forthcoming inquiry.
Now, I cannot, in passing, refrain from avowing my aston-
ishment that the noble lord or the hon. and gallant admiral
should have allowed themselves to be parties to so improper
and irregular a proceeding. We are informed that the hon.
and gallant admiral who moved for the committee is not even
to be its chairman. But supposing he were to be, I ask what
right or what power he could possibly have to speak in the
name of a committee not yet appointed, and to undertake to
say what its opinions would be with regard to the propriety
of examining any particular witness ? Sir, let me here pro-
test against the futile, and—l do not wish to use any strong
expression—but the untenable proposition that evidence
taken before another commission, which evidence is not be-
fore us—(hear, hear)—can be sufficient for all the purposes
of another and a wholly distinct investigation. Even sup-
posing that evidence to be in our possession, and to be for
molly referred by this house to this select committee,
how can the noble lord or the gallant admiral say what
cross-examination it may suggest to the committee as in.
dispensable to the due prosecution of their inquiry ?
(Hear.) So much for the first part of the noble lord's an-
swer. But he proceeded to say what I will now read to the
House. The noble lord's words were :—" Even now, 'if it
were the wish of the House of Commons that Sir B. Walker
should remain a few days, to give evidence before the com-
mittee, the noble duke would not put himself in opposition
to its wishes." Now, I maintain that that was a pledge
on the part both of the noble lore and of the Admiralty
that this important witness should not be sent away.
(Hear.) What did the noble lord mean by saying, "if it
were the wish of the House of Commons ?" How was he
to ascertain the wish of this House ? Did he suppose that
we were going to move a formal resolution ? What test of
the feeling of this House could he desire more conclusive
than the fact of ono member after another rising and ex.
pressing a strong opinion that the testimony of Sir B.
Walker was all-important ? It is mentioned in the quar-
ter from which I took that extract that this intimation was
received with cheers. Let me ask the noble lord how
many of the gentlemen who joined in that cheer does he
suppose thought that, after this pledge given on Thursday
night, Sir B. Walker would be sent away from England
on Saturday morning ? (Hear, hear.) These are the
facts of the ease, 'with one material addition. The pledge
given on Thursday night was contingent on the wish of
the House of Commons. On Friday night we had another
discussion on this subject; and then my right hen. friend
the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) took part in the
debate, adding another opinion—and an opinion, I need not
say, of no little weight under all the circumstances—to the
earnest hope before expressed, that Sir B. Walker would
not be allowed to leave England before being examined.
(Hear, hear.) Well, there was then still ample time left.
We know the quickness of telegraphic despatches. And
after this increased indication of what was the wish of the
House of Commons, unaccompanied by the slightest symp-
tom of an opposite desire, I say the noble lord had as clear
a 'roof as he could reasonably expect of the feeling of this
house, and that the departure of Sir B. Walker is a viola-
tion of the pledge given in the words I have quoted. (Hear.)
I think it right to lose no time in bringing this matter for-
ward. Here is a committee of no ordinary interest moved
for. There are some two or three men in whose power it
it is throw light on the inquiry. One of the most prominent
of them is Sir B. Walker. And lam sorry to add that,
when in the face of all these circumstances we find Sir B.
Walker despatched from England on Saturday morning
without necessity,—for I do not think the noble lord will
pretend to say that the loss of another few days can be of
any consequence beyond the mere delay in relieving'Sir H.
Keppel at the Cape,—it is impossible to resist the suspicion
that there must be some motive beyond what is avowed for
preventing the examination of this witness. (Hear, hear,)
It will be for the house to consider whether it will, under
the circumstances, be of any use for this committee to go on.
(Hear, hear.) I do not wish to commit myself to any hasty
opinion, but my present impression is, that the committee
will be of little or no value without the presence of this
officer. This, however, will be a matter for subsequent
consideration. For the present I only call on the noble
lord to give an explanation of the circumstances to which
I have adverted ; and I shall be glad if he can remove
the impression that must exist and the belief I have
been obliged to express that the conduct of the Admiralty,
as it now stands before us, has been disrespectful to the
House of Commons. (Hear, hear.)
Sir I. ELPHINSTONE wished to ask the noble lord

whether be could tell where Sir Baldwin Walker was. (A

laugh.) After he had weighed from Spithead, a strong
westerly wind came on to blow ; it had kept on blowing very
hard ever since, and that day three parts of a gale was blow-
ing from the west-north- west. It was not, therefore, likely
that the gallant admiral had got very far, and it might still
be within the bounds of possibility to detain him. He ven-
tured to say that if he were not forthcoming the inquiry
would be a mere mockery of Parliament, and the appoint-
ment of the committee would be perfectly useless. It cer-
tainly did appear a most suspicious circumstance that Sir
Bald win Walker should be sent to sea in a gale of wind for
the purpose of getting him out of the way. (Hear, hear.)
Mr.:CONINGHAM regarded the occurrence complained
of as an illustration of the objections to the system accord-
ing to which the head of the Admiralty had his seat in the
other branch of the Legislature. A charge of something
like sharp practice had been brought against the noble duke,
but they saw nothing of him, and had no opportunity of
forming an opinion with respect to him. He had an oppor-
_ _

;unity of seeing a great deal of the noble duke on a seleci

committee appointed to investigate the National Gallery
—(" Oh I" and laughter—and he must say that his conduct
was not calculated to inspire him with confidence.

Lord C. PAGET—I am sure it will not be necessary for
me to defend my noble friend the Duke of Somerset's con-

duct as chairman of the Committee on the National Gal

lery, but this I can say, that the way in which he has per-
formed his duties at the Admiralty has given general
satisfaction. With regard to the question put by my hon.
friend the member for Portsmouth, as to where Sir Baldwin
Walker is to be found now, 1 have no doubt he is boxing
about the Channel. leo not think he can have got very

far, and I can only repeat that if it be generally desired tha!

the gallant admiral should attend and give his evidence, the
Admiralty will not oppose itself for a moment to the wishes

of the house. Let me state frankly what occurred. My
right hon. friend was in great doubt with reference to this
committee. Sometimes he said a committee would be of no
service, and then he came down and advocated its appoint-
ment. His opinions have changed so often as to the pro-
priety or non• propriety—

Sir J. PAKINGTON—I wish my noble friend, if he
quotes me, would do me the favour to quote me correctly.
Just now ho has put forward quite inaccurately what I
stated.

Lord C. PAGET—At all events the right hon. gentle-
man expressed an earnest desire the other night that Sir
Baldwin Walker should be made to attend and give his
evidence. (Hear, hear.) I then stated that he had very
important duties to perform ; and I may now add that he
has to meet Sir H. Keppel at Ascension, to make arrange-
ments for taking up his station, as Sir H. Keppel has then
to proceed to America to relieve another admiral. (Hear,
hear.) It was thought right by the noble duke at the head
of the Admiralty to detain Sir B. Walker until he had pre-
pared the Estimates ; that delay, though necessary for the
public service, was inconvenient, and it therefore became
of great importance that Sir B. Walker should start for his
destination as soon as possible. I communicated to the
Duke of Somerset the earnest wish of the right hon. gen-
tleman that Sir B. 'Walker should remain ; but I stated
also that the gallant admiral who was about to move for
the committee had come to me and mentioned that he had
consulted several gentlemen whom he proposed to name as
members of the committee—gentlemen, give me imo to ,

say, whose ability and fitness the house o7ill recognise if
the committee should come to be named—and that they
we're of opinio u with him that there was no necessity to
detain Sir B. 'Walker from his important duties, as be had
alroady given hik.- evidence fully regarding the branch of the
Admiralty with Which ho was connected. My gallant
friend stated the saule thing distinctly to the house in the
course of the evening. (Hear, hear.) I therefore applied
to my noble friend at the head of the Government to decide
whether, under these circumstances, Sir B. Walker
ought to go or remain, adding that I was sure my noble
friend the Duke of Somerset would be ready to consult the
wishes of the house. My noble friend replied that he did
net think there had been any conclusive expression of opi-
nion on the part of the house that the gallant admiral ought
to remain. That was the state of the case on Thursday.
It is quite true that on Friday evening the right hon. gen—
tleman the member for Oxfordshire expressed a desire that.
Sir B. Walker should remain. (Hear, hear.) It being
my duty to make knuwn any observations which may be
made in this house to the noble duke and to the Board of
Admiralty, my noble friend asked whether I thought
there had been any general expression of opinion on the
part of the house. I could not say that there had been

anything beyond the fact that the right hon. gentleman,
who seemed to have taken on himself a very leading part
in thib matter—(hear)—had made the request, and, on th
other hand, that the gallant admiral, for himself and his
friends had extprcssed a wish that Sir B. Walker should:
proc,
,ed on the sorvice indicated. The question, therefore,
remains —Did tho house express any opinion on the sub-
ject ? I can say honestly that Ido not think any decided
opinion was e xpresoed. But if such be now the wish -of the
house I beg to :'By that I will this night acquaint the noble
duke with that w2sh, and will take measures to stop Sir B.
Walker, at whatev 'er inconvenienoe to the public serviee_
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY—It must be apparent to every one that.
evidence said to have be, tn given before a committee having
reference specially to doatyards cannot properly be relevant
to such a very different question as the constitution of the
Board of Admiralty, and tl terefore the evidence of Sir B.
Walker, having been so rest rained cannot be applicable to
the preseni purpose. Now, the Admiralty does not stand
particularly well in public estimation at the present mo-
ment—(hear, hear)—many persons have not been able to
reconcile to themselveo the assent•given to thelappointment
of this committee, and I cut it to .the noble lord whether the
public would not be apt to say that% the Admiralty granted
this committee at the same time that they took care the
only man who could really give evidence should be re-
mtved. (Hear, hear.) If my rec ollection does not fail
me, Sir Baldwin Walker was appointed to his late posi-
tion during the administration of the late Sir R. Peel.
See, therefore, what immense experiem.'e he must have
possessed. All the changes of importance in naval con-
struction must have taken place during his reign at the
Admiralty. Therefore, it is quite impossible that with-
out the presence of the gallant admiral the matter can be
fairly inquired into. (Hear.) He is the only person who
can carry the stream of information through such a number
of years, and through all those interesting changes ea to
which the public mind is so much excited as almost to haws
come to the conclusion that some error, or shortcoming, or
mistake, has existed somewhere. If the inquiry is to be
useful, let us have the means of pursuing it effectually; but
if not, it would be better to come to a resolution condemna-
tory of the Admiralty at once, and call on the Government
to provide a substitute.

Lord P ALME R ST ON—What my noble friend has states
is perfectly true. On Thursday evening the right hon. baro-
net expressed a wish that Sir B. Walker should be detained ;
but the gallant admiral by whom the committee was to be:
moved for stated in the most distinct manner that there was
no necessity to examine Sir B. Walker, as evidence amply
sufficient for all purposes had already been given by him;
and on grounds of public importance he agreed that he:
should go to his station without delay. On that I stated tob
my noble friend that I was satisfied the gallant admiral had
better go. On the other hand, as there appears to be a de-
sire on the part of those who are to be members of the com-
mittee that Sir B. Walker should be examined, I am satis-
fied the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty will give
directions to have him called back as soon as possible. I
have only to add that there has been no desire to withdraw
this officer from examination ; on the contrary, her Ma-
jesty's Government, I am sure,•have no wish except to give
the fullest information on every point to which the atten-
tion of the committee may be directed. Steps shall imme-
diately be taken to have him brought back. (Hear.)
The debate on Italian affairs was then adjourned to this
evening.