The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-01 00:00:00

that at this moment its importation of foreign goods is
thought the idea of a constituency in England should be '
this—it should be numerous enough to be independent, and larger than that even of Newcastle. We therefore propose
select enough to be responsible—(cheers)—and that is the that there should be a member for Hartlepool. For the same
constituency her Majesty's Ministers believe will be formed reason that it is a place where the shipping and mercantile
by the measure I propose to the house to-night. Having interest of the country are conspicuous, we are of opinion
laid before the house the character of the elective body, it that Birkenhead ought to be represented. . Hear, hear.)
becomes me to state how we propose it stall be registered, There is a part of Staffordshire which we think deserves
and how it may vote. (Hear, hear.) The house is aware and requires the consideration of this ho a . It is that
that, under the present system, there is a difference in the district which is called "the black country," where an im-
method of registration in counties and boroughs. In coun- mense distinctive industry has arisen sine , the passing of
ties an elector makes his own claim to be placed on the list ; the Reform Act ; and we therefore propose that West
in boroughs the list is made out by a public officer. It is Bromwich and Wednesbury shall return a member to
well known that great difficulty attends the county regis- this house. I said that we had allotted only two
tration • nothing proves it more than the fact that, not- additional members to South Lancashire, because we
withstanding the increase in the population and wealth of thought that there were two towns in that county whose
the country,- the county registration is a decaying one. interests required to be represented in this house, and there-
(Hear, hear.) This must always be the case if you surround fore we recommend that members should be allotted to
it with every obstacle. We propose to amend that system Burnley and Staleybridge. That will be five additional
entirely—we propose, in fact, that there shall be a self- borough members. Turning now to the South of England,
acting registry ; the overseer in every parish will make out we find a place in Surrey which ought to be represented—
a list of owners, as well as occupiers. I believe there will be viz., Croydon ; and in the county of Kent we propose that
no difficulty whatever in doing it, and clauses will be found a member should be allotted to Gravesend, a very ancient
in the bill to ensure its complete accomplishment. If any town with a distinctive character, and in every sense of the
one is omitted from the list, whether owner cr occupier, he word, I think, entitled to a representative. (Hear, hear.)
may make his claim, and in a supplementary list his name Now, sir, I will not say we have studied the map of Eng-
will be inserted are d sent to the clerk of the peace and the land, we have done more than that, At this moment I de-
revising barrister. That is the great change we propose dare that, if you are to complete the representation of Eng-
with regard to registration. There are other regulations of land according to the principle which influences her Ma-
considerable importance, but I have still other points to jesty's Ministers—the principle that this house is to repre-
allude to, and, though the house has treated me with great sent, not the numerical majority, but the interest of the
indulgence, I feel I must not dwell much on this head. country—l do not see any other member required to corn-
(Hear, hear.) Now, being registered, how is the elector to plete that representation ; and I believe that if we have
vote ? We wish to put an end to all those horrible erred we have erred rather by anticipating- the destiny of
scandals that have of late years been discussed what I believe will in time be great and thriving commu-
in the house, and the bitter feelings and controver- nities. (Hear.) Well, sir, how are these 15 members to
sies raised by the queition—Are the travelling explllees of be supplied ? That is the question. (Hear.) They are to
electors to be paid by the candidates ? (Cheers.) s there be supplied in the spirit of the English constitution. Adopt-
o mode of terminating for ever what may be a scandal, ing a policy which has been recognised on previous occa-
and is always a controversy. (Hear, hear.) When we are alone, and which for two centuries has been adopted by the
reconstructing the constituent body of the country, and Sovereigns and Parliaments of England—assuming, in
completing its representation in this house, is it not the which I hope lam correct, that it is the opinion of this
fitting occasion to make an effort, not merely to improve the house that its members ought not to be increased-7(cheers)
registration, but to ensure the registered vote being given in we must find the means of representing these new interests 1
the simplest and safestmanner we can devise? (Cheers.) We as means have been found before under similar circum-
purpose, in the first place, that the number of polling places stances—(a laugh)—and in the same constitutional spirit.
throughout the country shall be greatly increased. (Hear.) It is sometimes said that there are constituencies in this
We propose that in every parish containing 200 electors country so small that it is an indefensible anomaly to per-
there shall be a polling place. (Hear, hear.) If a parish mit them to exist. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I entirely
does not contain 200 electors, then it will form one of a disagree with the gentleman who cheered me. Ido not
group reaching that number, which will have a polling think that better arguments can be urged in favour of a
place. Every man who votes will vote at the place where constituency of 1,000 than one of 600, and I should be
he resides, wherever his qualification may be. To effect very much surprised if the honourable gentleman, ingeni-
that object there will not only be a qualification register, ous as he may be, could urge them. There are, it is true,
but a residence register. (Hear, hear.) It may be said some constitue nies which certainly cannot be defended
these additional polling places will be a great expense to if the numerical majority is to govern England ;
candidates ; but the bill provides that candidates shall not but theree
the _ are some very small constituencies which
bear the expense of them. (Cheers.) If left to the candi- miser pe
talon f efeerm a very important part in the represen-
date the expense would be very heavy ; if left to the country principks upon which the English consti-
it will be very little. Where there is a petty session there tution is founded,. which are still upheld in this house
is generally a police-station, or a room that may be hired, len(' still revered in this country. (Hear, hear.) I will
and there are provisions in the bill which will satisfy hon. take an instance. In all those rattling schemes of disfran-
gentlemen that this can be effected in a reasonably cheap chisement—(a laugh)—with which we were favoured dur-
manner. If a man chooses to vote as he always has votesf, ing the autumn, when every gentleman thought that he
he may go to the polling place of his district and do so; could sit down at his table and reconstruct the venerable
but we propose also to allow the elector to vote, though he fabric of the English constitution, if there was one point
may not choose to go to the poll, that he may vote by what more than another on which those Utopian meddlers agreed,
are called polling papers. (Hear, hear.) This is not an if there was one enemy which they all agreed, determined,
experiment, or a thing adopted for the first time ; there is and resolved to hunt to death, it was the borough of Arun-
nothing empirical about it. For many years the people of del. (A laugh.) There every vice of the system seemed to
this country have been familiar with it ;in the election of be congregated—a small population, a small constituency,
Poor Law guardians the votes are taken by voting papers; absolute nomination. Well, now, sir, that is very well for
the Metropolis Act, recently passed by the house, provides autumnal agitation; but let us see how it practically works
that the elections under it may be taken by voting papers, in the ancient and famous society of which it is our pride
What is the result of giving this supplementarypower to a and privilege to be members. There are 900,000 Roman
constituency ? Why it renders the expression of public Catholics in England, scattered and dispersed in every town
opinion more complete than under the existing system. Of and county—of course a minority. What means have they
the constituent body under the Poor Law Act 90 per cent, of being represented in this house, especially in the pre-
records its votes ; but, in the great electoral body of Eng- sent, as I deem it, unfortunate state of feeling in England
land called on to elect the representatives of the British with regard to our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects ? (Hear,
people, and form this famous House of Parliament, that hear.) There is one English Roman Catholic member of
affects the opinion of the world, and possesses the confidence Parliament, a man who bears a name that will ever be hon-
of the most toiling millions that were ever eongrgated in a oured by England and Englishmen—(hear, hear)—and
nation—how is that high privilege treated ? Not more practically, and in the spirit of the English constitution,
than 50 or 60 per cent. of that constituency records its votes the 900,000 Roman Catholics of England, men of ancient
in the performance of that solemn duty. (Hear hear.) But lineage and vast possessions, whose feelings all must re-
it may be said voting by polling papers,maylead to persona- spect even if they do not agree with them in every particu-
tion; as if there was no personation now I In the history lar, find a representative in the borough of Arundel. That
of man there never was any improvement proposed which is the practical working of our constitution. (Cheers.) You
the interests and passions of some would not distort ,• we talk of the small numbers of the constituency of Arundel.
believe the electors can vote by polling papers without 900,000 Roman Catholics 1 Why, it is more than the West
personation, and in an honest and satisfactory manner. Riding of Yorkshire; it is double the Tower Hamlets.
Sir, I shall always go myself to the hustings—(a laugh)— (Laughter and cheers.) Therefore, sir, we are not to say,
but if a man wishes to vote for his member by a polling because a constituency is small, that is the source from
paper instead of going to the hustings, I see no objection to which we must inevitably draw the constitutional means of
Ma being allowed to do so. All he will have to do is to completing the representation of England. The house will write to the public officer and ask for a polling paper, the do me the justice of observing that by the measure which,
form of which will be found in the schedule of this bill. A on the part of the Government, I have placed before them
Polling paper will be sent to him by the public officer in a to-night, whatever arrangements may be made with exist-
registered letter, and therefore you will have evidence of its ing boroughs to find means of effecting the representation of
transmission. He will sign this paper in the presence of interests not represented without increasing the numbers
two witnesses, one of whom must be a househ.older, and of this house, no man will be disfranchised. By adopting
then return it to the public officer, also in a registered letter. this principle of identity of suffrage, even if a man loses
Thus we shall have evidence of its transmission both ways; the member who has represented his borough he still may
and the polling paper will be opened before proper authori- go to the poll or send his voting paper; and, under all cir-
ties, and the man's vote will be duly recorded. I believe a cumatances, that is a compensation which was never offered
vote given by this instrumentality may be honestly and pro - in previous schemes of Parliamentary reform. (Hear, hear.)
perly given, and that there will be no more deception or per- We do not feel it our duty to recommend to Parliament
sonation practised under this machinery than under the that any borough represented by a single member, like
open system which at present prevails. But lest there Arundel, should lose that member. (Hear. hear.) Wewant,
should be any personation, we provide against it by making in order to complete the representation of the country, 15
it a misdemeanour under this bill. I have now placed seats in this house. To procure those seats we must fix on
before the house—much more briefly than I ought, perhaps, some rule that mustnecessarily be arbitrary. The only con-
to have done, but they will pardon me if, in consequence of dition that the house has a right to make, and which all
the largeness of the theme, I may omit some of the details should be glad to concede, is that that rule should be fairly
which will be found in the bill—l have Bow placed before applied. In the last census, if you throw your eye over its
you the leading features of what we propose to do with the Parliamentary results, you will find there are 15 boroughs
registration of the constituent body, and the method in represented by two members each, and the population of
which their votes shall be taken. I have next to touch which is under 6,000. Only 15 boroughs? It will be an
upon a certainly not less important part of my subject. In admirable opportunity for a display of patriotism (laughter)
attempting to deal with the question popularly designated —an opportunity seldom offered by the circumstances and
Parliamentary Reform, her Majesty's Government have occasions of society—to the members of those places. (A
endeavoured, as far as their intelligence could guide them, laugh.) I have no personal feeling on this subject. Ido
to offer a proposition to the house which, consistently with most sincerely and ardently hope that when there is a new
their conception of the principles upon which the English Parliament we may all meet again (a laugh) ; but if these
constitution is founded, should secure for the country a 15 boroughs now represented by two members each, though
complete representation. One of our first considerations with a population under 6,000, would consent, without our
was, of course, the electoral ',body, upon which I have using force to compel them, to make this concession (laugh-
treated at such length. But a complete representationdoes ter) we should complete the representation of the country
not depend merely upon the electoral body, however varied according to the principles that I believe to be those upon
you may make its elements, however homogeneous its which our representation ought to rest. (Hear, hear.)
character. It also depends upon whether, in your Therefore, Sir, in the bill which aeon will be in the hands
system, the different interests of the country are ade- of members there are provisions that the 15 boroughs in
quately represented. Now, discarding for ever that Fin- question shall in the next Parliament be represented by
ciple of property upon which it has been my duty to only one member each. (Cries of Name, name.) The house
make some remarks, accepting it as a truth that the func- lam sure, will consider my feelings. (A laugh.) I shall
tion of this house is to represent not the views of a nume- take care that every gentleman, I hope to-morrow morning
rice' majority—not merely the gross influence of a predomi- will receive the schedule containing the names of these
nant property, but the varied interests of the country, we boroughs ; but I see no necessity, while I think it would be
have felt that on this occasion it was incumbent on us dili- invidious to mention them now. (Cries of " No, no," and
gently and even curiously to investigate the whole of Eng- "Name.") I regret to be compelled to introduce a question
land and see whether there were interests not represented which may become of a personal character (a laugh), but as
in this house whose views we should wish to be heard the house insists on it I must read the names of boroughs
here, and whether the general representation of the country which, at presented represented by• two members, are in
could be matured and completed. In undertaking this future to return only one each. They are Honiton, Thet-
office it must not be supposed that we have been animated ford, Totnes, Harwich, Evesham, Wells, Richmond,
by a feeling that we would only do that which the hard Marlborough, Leominster, Lymingtoneudlow, An-
necessity of the case required. Had we been so influenced dover, Knaresborough, Tewkesh
ury, and 'Malden. (Cheers
it is possible we might have brought forward a measure and laughter.) I have now, sir, touched upon all those
that would have served the purpose of the moment, and topics which it was my duty to lay before the house this
yet left seeds behind us which might have germinated in evening. I have omitted many things that I ought to have
future troubles, controversies, and anxieties. We have said, and I have no doubt I may have said some things that
been sincerely desirous to adapt the scheme of 1832 to the I ought to have omitted. Such errors are inevitable in
England of 1859, and to induce the house to come to a treating so large and so various a theme, but lam sure this
general settlement, whether as regards the exercise of the house will remember that there will be many opportunities
franchise or of the direct representation in this house of the for me to enter into necessary explanations, and will treat
various interests of the community, which should take this an occasion like the present with generous forbearance.
question for a long period out of the agitating thoughts of (Hear, hear.) Sir, having described as clearly as I could
men. We have sought to offer to the country, in the hope the principal provisions of bill to the house, I shall say
that it will meet with its calm and serious approval, what no more. I believe that this is a measure wise, prudent,
we believe to be a just and—l will not say a final, but— and adequate to the occasion. I earnestly hope the house
conclusive settlement. Finality, sir, is not the language may adopt it. I believe, sir, it is a Conservative measure,
of politics. (Cheers.) But it is our duty to propose an using that epithet in no limited or partial sense, but in the
arrangement which, as far as the circumstances of the age highest and holiest interpretation of which it is capable. I
in which we live can influence our opinion, will be a con- can say sincerely that those who framed this measure are
elusive settlement. And we have laid it down as our task men who reverence the past, who are proud of the present,
to consider, without any respect to persons, what we and who are confident of the future. Such as it is, I now
honestly think are the interests in the country that are not submit it for the consideration of the House of Commons,
represented, but which we should at this moment counsel convinced that they will deal with it as becomes the repre-
the house to add to their numbers. I venture to divide sentatives of a wise and an understanding people. (Loud
this branch of the subject into the cases where there is a and general cheers.) The right hon. gentleman concluded
want of representation and those where a representation by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
exists, but not an adequate one. We find both of these Mr. BAXTER (who was at first imperfectly heard, from
circumstances characteristic of the West Riding of York- the noise occasioned by members leaving the house) said
shire and South Lancashire. There there are distinct inte- that, under the circumstances of the case, he would not
rests which are not represented in this house, and some detain the house many minutes. He thought that the right
also which are very inadequately represented. I mean by hon. gentleman had not sufficiently met the requirements
the term inadequately represented, to say that there are of Scotland and Ireland. The right hon. gentleman the
several distinct interests, while the present members are Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself furnished the
returned to this house by the , predominant interest ; the strongest argument in answer to his own statement. He
other interests, which are considerable- enough to challenge had stated that with regard to the metropolis there was
and.eee claim our consideration, being virtually unrepresented.c scarcely a member in the house who had not an interest
; e Propose,st
speak ifding of Yorkshire four members. Here I will not said that there was scarcely a member who had not some
Population or property, because we are not about interest, direct or indirect, in either Ireland or Scotland.
to offer° a
population lomr°position to the house formed merely upon Scotland claimed to be put upon terms of perfect equality
territory 70
IntreTertY. In the West Riding we find a great with England and Ireland, and she claimed 19 additional
We find another in leetigth, which is purely agricultural. representatives. Was it right, he asked, that there! should
of them important enoughgren division studded with towns, none be no county in Scotland with more than one member ?
enough to be represente, or having distinctive interests Take the great county of Lanark, for instance, was it fair
ing a wonderful hive of indruettin their aggregate conatitut- that it should only have one representative ? The right
still another portion of the ;as and
where and there is hon. gentleman had not said a single word with regard to
blended and varied interests. NY Riding there are Scotland, and he left the house in perfect darkness as to
add four members to the West RiclinProTse' therefore to
e the mode in which he intended to deal with the representa-
divide it not according to a mathematicalorkshire, and to tion of that portion of the empire. Looking at the measure
to population, but according to its separa e interests. This
tarrangement as of the Government he complained that it was defective, at
principle of division will be in accordance(Heariie with the local least in the sense that it omitted all mention of either
demarcations of wapentakes. Ireland or Sootland; He did not believe that the measure
be the test, the property here is identical for owever
population the opri•operty of
If property would prove a settlement Of the question; but that, on the
varied is the number of theircontrary, it would prove the commencement of a great
oseef that there
the wardentakes is as follows :—`Ye „Zotilo)national agitation, and perhaps lead to an outbreak of feel-
should be ablest Yorkshire with a population
4i 21,r0 and ing which neither the Government nor the house were Are-
a property of £963,000. That is the divisionn in pared to meet. (Hear, hear.) He was in favour of a£s
find Keighley, Dewsbury, and a score of towns wwhiedbl. you franchise in towns, as he considered such a measure would
cannot summon here, but which, if you adopt these you let in a large and deserving class to a share in the repro-
ciples for your constituent body, would be voting for eTurnil; sentation. The bill might please some parties in the house,
members, and therefore they ought to vote with the di-4
but he confessed he was dissatisfied with it, and he feared
tinct interest with which they are connected. W. propose it would tend to fan the flame of agitation now smoulder-
that there shall be a North-west Yorkshire with a. pope_ ing through the country. He begged to move the amend-
ment of which he had given notice, namely, "That it is
I lation of 129,000, and a South Yorkshire with one of
expedient to consider the laws relating to the representa-
-225,000. We propose these divisions, instead of an endless !?'
representa-
tion of the people in England and Wales and Scotland and
division and subdivision without names, which is little in
Ira not separately but in one measure." (Bear, hear.)
. from the chair.
_llB J. OGILVY seconded the amendment, which was
harmony with our habits, and because these are the names
which are used in the locality. With regard to the property
whether he
of these divisions, varying as they do in interest and popu- 1-• Sir C. LEWIS
protordasttedmathkee
anChyaarnereanllogr
lation, its amount is almost identical in each. In one--
.of of the Exchequer
arrangement with respect
them the assessment to the county rates is £963,000, in to the four v
another £809,000, and in the third £BOB,OOO. We propose St. Albans; whetherats for the boroughs of Sudbury and
to add two members to South Lancashire—that a to any unrepresented laces
he intended to assign those seats to
say, we propose to distribute the county of Lancashire the number of members of thewould diminish to that extent
into three divisions. One will be the hundred of Mr. lIEADLAM said, in house ?
West Derby, and one the hundred of Salford. These of the bill, he of course reservedeotenting to the introduction
divisions are the same as those proposed by the noble principlet should appear desirable,ofendeavouringohimself the fullest right,
lord the member for London, except that one of the of disfranchisement oyen;i to extend the
hundreds of North Lancashire was inserted in West Derby the right hon. gentleman. He would 'e limit proposed by
in his bill, and it now remains with North Lancashire. and decided opposition to deprive perre his determined
This will be an addition of six to the number of count
y for counties in respect of property withallfii)ewho now voted
members. There is another county to which we propose to county suffrage. There was a sort of tacit understanding
of their
add two members—that is the county of Middlesex, which that the county representatives should be selecte from
Wee Propose to divide. By dividing Middlesex the claims of some dozen or 20 families, and, generally spealdn
K nsington and Chelsea and Hammersmith, and a hundred were the sons of noblemen resident within their re g' theyrespective
counties
urgedao in this house, will, be provided for. They will form With the exception of South Durham, and one or two othe;
irtl onth Middlesex, while the distinctive interests of districts, the county members belonged exclusively to this
theother Portion of the County the northern division, willand he saw no reason for endeavo •
also be represented in this' small class,
These are all the addi- render that class still
more restricted and exclusive by die
lions that we propose tomake house.
had hitherto exercised the fran-
count ies—eight mereeeie
to the representation of the franchising persons who
the attention of the h It is now, Sir, my duty to call chile in counties. He thought, also, .
that it was equally
house to those which, because of voting in boroughs upon
they possess' distinct interests ' whichplaces objectionable to confer the right
sensed in this house, ought, in - 40s. freeholders. The effect of such a measure would be
represented here. The first place our opinion, to be distinctly immediately apparent in the small nomination boro.ughs.
ought to be represented in the -which, in our °pillion, He was, however desirous that the bill should be intro-
town of Hartlepool and its im Housee of Commons is the duced, and that it, should receive full and fair consderation,
m rate district.positson he
(Hear.)
There is no place in England more deerand so far from him offering it any factious op,
energy of its inhabitants, its rapid pro inguished by the would do all in his power to render it a complete and satis-
peas, and th
ter of its industry. (Hear.) In North Durham theree charac- factory measure. . •
great towns which are represented, and there are t are four Mr. DODSON expressed a wish that the Chancellor of
members ; in South Durham there aretwo county o county
members the Exchequer would inform the house by what number he
and no town which is represented. I will not vello
thecalculated the county voters would be diminished if, accord-
population of Hartlepool ; T will not rest the granting'''. Wt ing to his proposal, those freeholders who had now a vote for
member on that basis, though the population is very con_ a county in respect of property situated within a Parliamen-
siderable, upwards of 30,000; bit rrest it upon tho rapist Yax borough were taken out of the list of county voters ;
do rebel of itmasideralgo liatig§tryi ya 4 tk9 wry Act 403 whether a freeholder now 1144 E, aOh trawl:lL%)

within a Parliamentary borough, but not resident within
the borough, would have the same right of voting for the
borough as if he were resident. There was also a third
point on which he wished to receive some information from
the right hon. gentleman—namely, how he proposed to deal
with the case of a person who held two properties within a
Parliamentary borough, one of which at present entitled
him to a vote for that borough, and the second of which
enabled him to vote for the county
Lord DUNCAN said he was desirous of ascertaining
from the Lord Advocate when the Government intended
to introduce a bill for the purpose of amending the repre-
sentation of Scotland.
Mr. BLACKBURN 'thought the discussion had been
considerably complicated by the amendment which the hon.
member for Montrose had proposed, and expressed a hope
that the hon. gentleman would withdraw it until some more
fitting opportunity.
Colonel SYKES said he deeply regretted the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should have thought proper to exclude
Scotland from the operation of his bill, inasmuch as he
could not help regarding it as unwise and impolitic to take
a course which might tend to destroy that general commu-
nity of feeling and interest between one portion of the king-
dom and another which it was so desirable to promote.
The right hon. gentleman had not done well in making
Scotland an alien.
Mr. KINNAIRD joined in this appeal to the hon. mem-
ber for Montrose to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. VANCE thought it would be impossible to mix up,
as had been suggested, the representative system of the
United Kingdom in one general scheme.
Mr. CLAY trusted the hon. membor for Montrose would
not press his amendment to a division. He wished to ask
the right hon. gentleman whether a. calculation had
been made of the number of voters who would be ad-
mitted to the franchise wider the different qualifications
which had been described. It was proposed that in
counties the cost of polling places and other expenses
should be borne by the county rate, and this was a very
admirable provision. (Hear.) But was there not to be a
similar
.provision in boroughs ? (Hear.) Surely what was
proper in the one case was equally proper in the other. It
might be urged that these expenses were much less in
boroughs than in counties, but he could only say that at one
uncontested election he paid more than £4OO for the ex-
penses of the sheriff, hustings, polling clerks, and so on.
Mr. BAXTER said that in consequence of the appeal
made to him from both sides of the house he should with-
draw his motion. (Hear, hear.)
After a few remarks from Sir H. Willoughby and Mr.
C. Bruce,
Mr. CRAUFORD protested against the cavalier treat-
ment which Scotland had experienced this evening, and was
surprised at the insolent silence which had been preserved
respecting the Scotch representation.
Mr. STEUART said that, taking population into account,
the counties in Scotland were more inadequately repre-
sented than the boroughs. He wished to bring under the
notice of the Lord Advocate the right of the Scotch uni-
versities to return members. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. OGILVY was surprised that the right hon. gen-
tleman had made no reference to Scotland and to Ireland in
his statement, having distinctly understood from what took
place on a previous evening that it was his intention to
do so.

of,:and of the seats taken away—with regard to the increase
in the number of polling places, and the mode of voting
by polling papers—l wish to give no opinion whatsoever;
but this I should say upon the whole question, that unless
you are prepared to give more general satisfaction to the
country—unless you mean to make a more effectual change
—it would be better to make no change at all. (Loud
cheers.) I can well understand that the country could bear
very well going on for a time discussing these matters with-
out any change in the present mode of voting ; but what I
do not understand is that Parliament should offer to the
country, or rather that there should be inflicted by Parlia-
ment upon the country, a bill changing the representation
with all the qualities of invasion about it—with a great deal
of change and a great deal of disfranchisement—but includ-
ing not the slightest provision in favour of the honest and
hardworking man. (Ministerial cries of Oh ! oh followed
by opposition cheers.) Unless you give satisfaction—not
to everybody—(a laugh)—because somebody must be dis-
appointed—but unless you give satisfaction to those who
have a right to be satisfied, depend upon it your bill will
only be the signal of a great agitation. (Cheers.) It will
produce a great,dealmore of discontent than of contentment.
I shall consider the bill when it comes in. I shall see whe-
thOr its provisions agree with the statement of the right
hon. gentleman. As the matter at present stands it does not
appear to me to be an improvement upon the state of the
representation—(cheers)—but above all, it does not appear
to me to be a Conservative measure. I can well understand
a Conservative Minister saying, " This question of repre-
sentation has been settled, and we do not propose to change
it until something shall be produced which shall appear to
us to improve the present state of things ;" but that a Con-
servative Ministry should produce a great measure of dis-
franchisement, extending to 90,000 or 100,000 people, and
refuse to admit the working classes to the franchise, passes
my, comprehension. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK.—Change, sir, is of itself an evil. (A
laugh.) Change in legislation is only justifiable when the
change is to be a better state of things. Now, my charge
against the proposal of the right hon. gentleman is that it is
a change which leads to a worse state of things. (Oh, oh,
and cheers.) The right hon. gentleman started upon a strict
principle, which—he will, I hope, forgive me for saying so
—I cannot possibly understand. He said he was about to
base the representation of the people, not upon population,
not upon wealth, but upon their interests. Now, I want to
know what is the meaning of their interests. (Hear.) He
says he is going to give certain towns a certain number of
members, and also to disfranchise a certain number of towns;
and upon what principle does he begin ? Why, he disfran-
chises 15 boroughs that have not 6,000 inhabitants, thereby
making population his ground for disfranchisement.
(Cheers.) Now, my notion of representation is this,—that
the representative body is a watchman upon the Government.
Government has certain powers, and those powers would be
applied to mischief unless the representative body watched
over this Government. But how shall we prevent the re-
presentative body themselves from doing wrong ? Why, by
making them amenable to the whole people, or those who
represent the whole people. And how can you have any
body representing the whole people who have not all the
passions, all the interests, all the feelings of the people whom
they represent ? Well, then, the constituent body is this
body, and you say you will give the franchise to a certain
class, but you will give it to nobody else. Why was the
Reform Bill of 1832 brought in by the noble lord in 1831 ?
It was brought in because the power of government in this
country was held by one class—namely, by the landed
gentry. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman himself said
the object of that bill was to give power to the middle classes.
And so it did give power to them. Recollect the conduct of
the working classes on that occasion. (Cheers.) What did they
say? They said, " The bill brought in by the noble lord will
not give us power, but we have such confidence in you, our
fellow countrymen of the middle classes, that we will aid you
to beat down the opposition of the landed aristocracy, and
enable you to gain the franchise for yourselves." Without
the working classes on that occasion there would have been
no Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) They behaved in a way
that I shall never forget.' They behaved in a way that the
middle classes of England ought never to forget. (Cheers.)
And now, sir, I appeal in the name of the working classes
of this country to the middle classes of England, and I say
to them—ln 1832 you gained your power by the aid of the
working men, and I call upon you as earnest, as honest, as
generous men now not to neglect the interests of those by
whom you were aided on that occasion; (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman's bill will not give one iota of power
to the working classes of this country. (Cheers.) It is a
bill of disfranchisement, and not of enfranchisement. It
disfranchises freeholders in towns, but gives no power to
any body in boroughs. I will suppose the case of the town
which I have the honour to represent. I have no doubt
that in that town there are many thousands of county
voters. Every man of them will be disfranchised as a
county voter, without being compensated by a vote for the
town. Therefore your bill confers nothing upon him, but
takes away from him his county franchise. (Cheers.) And
what will that do ? Why, it will enhance the power of the
landed gentry. (Cheers.) And that is the object of this
bill. Now, I tell the right hon. gentleman I, and many on
this side of the house, with the full censent of our consti-
tuents, have given the Government a complete and unvary-
ing support, but sure I am that 24 hours will not pass over
my head before I receive statements from my constituents
that, with their consent, this support shall not be conti-
nued. (Loud cheers.) And why so ? We have given the
right hon. gentleman and his friends our support, because
we thought that they would see their own position and the
position of the country, that they would apply the power
which we maintained for them to the good government of
this country. But in place of that generous and liberal
mode in which I thought the Government would act, they
are now bringing in a bill for the purpose of enhancing
the power of the gentlemen behind them. (No,
no.) The right hon. gentleman has thought only
of his friends behind him ; he has not thought of those by
whom he and his friends have been supported and kept
in place. (Ministerial cries of " Oh, oh 1") lam speaking
out. (A laugh.) The right hon gentleman knows as well
as I do that by the generous support he has received from
this side of the house he has been maintained in his present
position, and looking at the bill as explained by the right
hon. gentleman—and I can only judge of it by his explana-
tion—l say emphatically that every stage of it must be op-
posed, steadfastly opposed, by every friend of the people in
this house. (Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT—In the common affairs of life we gene-
rally find that when men undertake to do that for which they
are not fitted, either by nature or by inclination, they do not
generally succeed very well. (Laughter and cheers.) The
right hon. gentleman, I dare say, could have drawn a much
better bill for the reform of the representation, but he hap-
pens on this occasion to represent a party which has always
consistently opposed any extension of political power to the
people. (Cheers.) I have regretted very much that he and
his friends have consented to open this question and to
make a pretence of settling it. I think there was some show
of reason when they chated a late eminent statesman with
doing wrong in undertaking matters which his opponents
ought to have undertaken, but in his case he always ad-
mitted that he was thoroughly convinced of the new prin-
ciples he had adopted. (Hear, hear.) The right hon.
gentleman and his friends have never yet expressed to us
clearly anything by which we could gather that they have
undergone anything like a real conversion. Ido not think
it possible, indeed, with what I will call the unacquaintance
of the hon. gentleman opposite with the opinions prevailing
in the towns of this country upon the question, that they
could be expected to bring in or support a measure such as
the country expects from the Government that undertakes
a bill for the reform of the representation. Who has
I asked them for this. bill ? (Hear.) I ha4Te never heard
any gentleman upon that (the Ministerial) side remon-
strate with his leaders because they were not anxious or
zealous for reform. I never heard any of their sup-
porters in the country arguing at public meetings for a
change in the representative system. I have never seen in
their newspapers leading articles in favour of Parliamen-
tary Reform. In point of fact, as far as hon. gentlemen
opposite are concerned, if they did not think that the exi-
gencies of party required it, they would have preferred that
there should be no Reform Bill at all. (Hear, hear.) And
that is precisely the position they ought to have taken up
if they thought it good for the country. But there is a
class in the country—l will not say a class, but a large
portion of the people—who do and have asked, consistently
and incessantly, for 25 years for an amendment of the Re-
fern Bill of 1832. And what has been the especial
grievance of which they complain ? Have they not stated
unanimously that, so far as regards the great portion of the
population of the United Kingdom, the Reform Bill was so
framed as to exclude them from the enjoyment of the fran-
chise ? (Hear, hear.) They have said that those who earn
weekly wages do not, for the most part, live in houses of
the value of £lO, and therefore to fix the franchise at £lO
was to fix a line which necessarily excluded them, and
made them, to quote the words of the right hon. gentleman,
"pariahs." The Reform Bill placed the great bulk of the
working classes in that position. Ido not complain of that
bill, but I should have the utmost contempt—no, I will not
say contempt, but I should be utterly hopeless of the work-
ing classes of this country if I thought that they would re-
main content under a general exclusion like that. (Cheers.)
In obedience to the great call of the unenfranchised, whom
we represent, you propose a bill, and your newspapers have
told us that they latterly have become reformers, and that
" the bread was to be taken out of the mouth," as the
phrase was, of the noble lord the member for the City of
London, by the measure of the Government. Well, the
bill comes in, and when it goes to-morrow morning into
every part of the United Kingdom, every one of these
working, toiling, slaving men who are paying taxes,
and performing the other duties of a citizen, will
see that as he was left an outcast by the measure of
1832, so he must remain an outcast still by the bill of
1859. (Cheers.) What are the modes by which the right
hon. gentleman proposes to add to the franchise ? He
does not even pretend that they will be modes by which the
working classes will be admitted to the franchise. (Hear.)
First of all he admits every man who is a lodger and pays
Bs. a week. That does not refer to the working classes.
(Hear, hear.) Then every graduate of a university. Very
few of them can be considered in England as belonging to
the working clasSes. (A laugh.) The ministers of reli-
gion, to whom votes are to be given, as a body have votes
already, and any pretence of introducing them into the bill
is merely a pretence and nothing better. (Hear.) Then
come the gentlemen of the law, and the gentlemen who
practise medicine • but the right hon. gentleman is very
careful not to admiti the latter unless they are registered.
There might be poison in the vote, such is the rigidity with
which unregistered persons are excluded. Then come the
schoolmasters who hold certificates from the Committee of
Privy Council for Education ; but why should there be any
exclusiveness of this nature ? Are there no schoolmasters
to whom the right hon. gentleman might have extended the
right of voting but those gentlemen who have competed for
certificates ? (Hear.) Why, I should be ashamed to come
before my countrymen and offer a franchise of this trifling,
this insulting character. (Cheers.) Then comes personal
property. Those who derive £lO a year from property in-
vested In the funds, Bank Stock, in India Stock, and rail-
way stock, and those who have £6O in the savings-bank,
are to have a vote. To be original, the right hon. gentle-
man has departed from the sum fixed by the noble lord ('I.
Russell), who settled upon £5O, and even in this small
matter, there is an abstinence of that, as we thought, in-
sufficient liberality which marked the bill of the noble lord.
Now, look at this savings-bank question, Let the house
imagine some young man who has saved £6o—and there
are thousands of them, I hope, in the country—and who
has put it into a savings bank. If anything should hap-
pen to him—if a parent should fall ill, or what would be
a happier thing, if he should think of entering into the
marriage state—he withdraws the £6O and furnishes
a house of £6 or £7 a year rental. By this step he
adds to the ties which bind iim to his country—he
has additional reason for the love of order and obedience,
but by this bill ho cuts away his franchise, and is put into
the claee of outcasts, (Hear.) AU these Amoy frPadtins

The LORD ADVOCATE said he had refrained from
answering the appeals which had been made to him, not
with any idea of showing disrespect to the house, but
simply in order that he might have an opportunity of re-
plymg at once to all the questions which were addressed to
him. He did not think the house would expect him to
enter at present into any discussion of the Reform Bill for
Scotland ; but he assured the hon. member for Montrose
(Mr. Baxter) that it was the intention of the Government
to introduce such a measure, and that it would be based
on the general principles which had been announced as
applicable to England. (Hear, hear.) Everybody knew
that the laws and institutions of Scotland differed in a cer-
tain degree from those of England, and therefore there
must be a difference in details ; but the leading features of
the two bills would be the same. With reference to this
Subject, he hoped Scotch members would not assume, from
anything which had passed this evening, that there was to
be no increase of representation for Scotland. (Hear, hear.)
He could only say, on behalf of the Government, that they
would endeavour to do justice to Scotland ; but if Scotland
was not fairly treated, he certainly knew no country more
capable of asserting her claims to justice. (Hear, hear, and
a laugh
Mr. JOHN LOCKE, as a member for one of the large
constituencies which had not been treated with very great
deference by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressed
his opinion that those constituencies would not think them-
selves fairly treated by this bill when they found in it no
provision for the extension of the suffrage in boroughs.
The right hon. gentleman had dealt with this question en-
tirely as if it affected counties only ; and while he had ex-
tended the franchise in counties he proposed to introduce
into the borough constituencies an element which would
entirely alter their present character, and render them much
more liable to landed and aristocratic influence.
Mr. NEWDEGATE admitted the claims of Scotland to
an extended representation, both on the grounds of pro-
perty and population, but contended that this claim was in-
ferior to that of the English counties.
Mr. W. J. FOX, while agreeing in two principles laid
down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that all interests
should be represented, and that the defects of the Reform
Act of 1832 should, as far as possible, be remedied—entered
his protest against this bill as not carrying out either of
them. (Hear, hear.) It did net provide for the emancipa-
tion of the working classes, which was one great deficiency
of the Reform Act of 1832. There was no reason why Par-
liament should be afraid to trust the working classes. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had very justly observed, that
a man who lived in a £lO house in a county was just as
likely to be a loyal subject and to exercise the franchise pro-
perly as a man who lived in a £2O or a £5O house, and so
in a town a £5 householder or a £2 householder was just as
likely to be a trustworthy voter as a £lO householder. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said—l am quite ready to admit that
the Government could not propose a bill on the subject of
the representation of the people without great difficulty. I
am quite willing to admit, also, that it is very difficult for
those who hear a plan proposed for the first time to judge
of its details until they have had some little time to con-
sider them. But there are two points of the right hon. gen-
tleman's statement upon which I have long thought, upon
which I require no time to make up my mind, and upon
which the right hon. gentleman's statement has, I own,
filled me with very great apprehensions. The first of these
points is what he stated with regard to freeholders who have
now the right of voting for counties. (Hear, hear.) If I
understood the right hon. gentleman, these freeholders are
no longer to vote for the county, but are to be deprived of
that right, or are to be given, instead, that which they may
or may not value—viz., the privilege of voting for the
borough in which they may reside. Now, sir, as it appears
to me, this is a very great and perilous innovation. (Hear,
hear.) This provides for the extinction of a right of voting
belonging to a number of from 90,000 to 100,000 persons
who have enjoyed that right during a period of 400 years.
(Hear, hear.) It is proposed, without any consent of theirs,
without any inquiry, to deprive them of that right of voting
by a summary Act of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) But, sir,
further than that, so far from considering this as one of the
defects of the present representation which required a
remedy, it has always appeared to me a very great advan-
tage. (Cheers.) That there should be a mixture of the
towns and counties ; that there should be not only the
landed gentry, with their tenants and the workpeople de-
pendent on them who may have small freeholds, voting for
counties, but that there should be persons engaged in trade
in towns who should come among the great body of free-
holders in order to choose persons to represent the whole
community—has always appeared to me one of the benefits
of the present system of representation. This is not an
opinion formed yesterday or to-day, because at the time of
the Reform Act, when certain peers were willing to
subscribe to the Reform Act on certain conditions, and one
of those conditions was that freeholders who lived in towns
should henceforth be confined to towns, I declared plainly
to Lord Grey that if the bill came back with that amend-
ment I would propose the rejection of that amendment,
and would risk the whole fate of the Reform Bill on that
sole amendment. (Cheers.) With regard to many of these
persons the act will be one of entire disfranchisement, be-
cause, as the law stands at present, if a man lives in a £lO
house as occupier he has a right to vote for the town al-
ready, and if he has, besides, a property of 40s. freehold in
the county, he has a right to vote also for the county. In all
those cases you would deprive him of the right of voting
for the county, and give him no compensation whatever.
(Cheers.) Now, I cannot but think that when this propo-
sition goes forth to the country, with regard to a great por-
tion of those 90,000 or 100,000 persons there will be great
alarm produced. For my own part, when I have thought
over the Reform Act and the present state of the represen-
tation, which a wise Legislature would propose to amend, it
has never occurred to me that this was other than one of
the present advantages and benefits, instead of a defect to
be remedied. (Cheers.) That is one part of the proposition
of the right hon. gentleman which I say gives me great ap-
prehension ; and, supposing the right hon. gentleman should
succeed in stifling the discontent of these persons, suppos-
ing he should succeed in severing the towns from the coun-
ties in the way he proposes, supposing he attaches the
counties more to the land and divides the towns from them,
what effect will be produced but ill-blood between towns
and counties—a greater discontent in the towns with regard
to the proceedings of those who are owners of land, and a
greater division of opinion among those who are occupied in
agriculture and those who are engaged in trade ? (Hear.)
There is another part of the right hon. gentleman's state-
ment, which is not a proposition but an omission, which
appears to me to be of a very serious character. Ever since
the time when I departed from that proposition of finality
which Lord Grey and Lord Althorp always insisted upon,
I have done so upon this ground, which appeared to me to
be the only ground for disturbing the settlement of so vast
and complicated a subject—viz., that there was a great body
of persons, and those persons belonging to the working
classes of the country, who were very competent to exer-
cise the franchise. With reFard to all those persons
the right hon. gentleman does httle or nothing. (Cheers.)
He has arrived only so far as I arrived in the year 1837,
namely, that persons who had money in savings' banks
should be allowed a franchise. Really, if contentment is to
be given, if it is intended that a bill of this kind shall give
satisfaction to the country, I should say that there is a great
portion of the community fully satisfied with the law as it
stands, but there is another portion of the community not
satisfied, and that is the great body of the working men.
(Hear, hear.) They take more and more interest in political
concerns, they are becoming more and more qualified to
judge, they have by all your changes—by your reduction
of duties--by enabling them to get food cheaper—by enab-
ling them to get their news and disquisitions cheaper—be-
come more fit to exercise the political franchise ; and, feel-
ing politically fit, are dissatisfied that they should any
longer be excluded from that privilege. (Cheers.) Be-
sideS, the right hon. gentleman stated, and very truly,
that at different periods • bills have been brought in by the
Government to confer a rating franchise. By one bill it
was Proposed to confer the franchise on those who paid
ot aftitohnes.fran(
rates to the amount of £5, and by another on those who
Cchiheseersi.)bTnhao. That
e:antheys.wico.nshtait;
paid £6 in rates. Those bills have naturally raised expec-
think that if a bill of this kind is to give any satisfaction
edcoenxrentdd, definitions
tr. dnos
to the country, the great bodyof the kin 1 -
wor g peop e, com
prising some hundreds of thousands, aught to be admitted
to the franchise, and that the constitution will be the
stronger by their admission. (Loud cheers.) I think
you deprive yourselves of that additional strength
while you continue their exclusion. Well, these two
points in the statement of the right hon, g-entlem
me great dissatisfaction. With regard to any other ugi
evse-
that in the bill' amount of the beats that q
aro disposed

whom had a vote. (Hear, hear.) The bill of the right hon.
gentleman would meddle with the evil without settling it.
He was sorry to say that, taking into consideration the pre-
sent bill and the Church Rate Bill, he and those who acted
with him would be unable to give the Government that
support which was necessary to keep them in power. He
was sorry for this, because they were so badly off for leaders
on that (the Opposition) side of the house. (Laughter.)
The noble lord the member for Tiverton was a bad parlia-
mentary reformer, and the noble lord the member for the
City was not a good ecclesiastical reformer; and it would
have been very satisfactory if the present occupants of the
Treasury bench had taken a step in advance, so as to be al-
lowed to retain office until the Liberal party wore prepared
with leaders. (Laughter.)
Mr. EDWIN JAMES said he would reserve until a future
opportunity the reasons which he should venture humbly
to urge upon the house would render this bill unsatisfactory
to the country. Coming as he did fresh from a popular con-
stituency, he was justified in saying that there were very
large numbers of the people calmly and anxiously expecting
that that franchise7or which their intelligence fitted them
would be extended to them by any reform bill which might
be proposed, and he could not help thinking that the mea-
sure which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had propounded
with so much ability and adroitness had been addressed
rather to the present electoral body of the country and to
the members of the existing House of Commons than to the
masses of the Community, who, though there was no vio-
lent agitation on this subject, yet demanded admission
within the pale of the constitution. The right hon. gen-
tleman, when in his coy manner he deferred till next day the
announcement of the political doom of some of the consti-
tuencies, appealed to the sympathies of members of that
house instead of bringing in a comprehensive measure of
enfranchisement. It was an idle dream on the part of the
Government to suppose that this bill would ever receive the
approval of the country.
Mr. BENTINCK referred to the remark of Mr. Bright,
that this bill was intended to be a boon to those who sat
behind the Ministerial benches. He should not canvass the
details of the bill, but in reply to the statement that reform
was not according to the nature of those who sat on that
side of the house, he had only to say that he was in favour
of reform, and for this reason, that he could not understand
any man getting up in that house and saying he was against
any measure of reform which would alter the Act of 1832,
which he had always looked upon as a one-sided measure,
and one of the most iniquitous political measures that had
ever been passed, full_ of anomalies and injustices which
were a disgrace to those who framed it. The hon. member
proceeded to point out the inaccuracies contained in the
speeches which Mr. Bright had delivered in the country on
the subject of reform, denouncing them as unpatriotic and
revolutionary. The hon. member for Birmingham had
told them that the House of Peers represented the landed
interest. But he contended that the resolution of this
house which forbade the members of the other house from
interfering in elections was a most unwarrantable inter-
ference with their rights, and that, so far from represent-
ing the landed interest, they were not even themselves re-
presented.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN wished to know whether a large por-
tion of this empire, represented by 105 members, was
totally ignored—(laughter)—or whether a bill would be
introduced for Ireland ?
Mr. ROUPELL had hoped that he should have had an
opportunity of supporting the Government measure, but he
should have almost equal happiness in giving it his most
strenuous opposition. (Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. S. BOOTH said this measure would disturb as little
as possible the balance which had for some years existed
in that house between the representatives of classes. He
contended against the supposition that the Conservatives
would receive any benefit from it. Still he was very far
from saying that it was not a measure which that party
sought to support, though he believed that he personally
should lose more than he should gain by it—(hear)—the
majority of the freeholders' in the town of North Hampshire
being Conservative. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In re-
plying on a motion for the introduction of a bill the duties
of a member are generally confined to answering inquiries
made in the course of the debate ; and I will in the first
place notice those that have been made during the discus-
sion this evening. The right hon. gentleman the member
for Radnorshire, who followed me, inquired what the in-
tentions of the Government are with respect to the seats ob -
coined by the disfranchisement of Sudbury and St. Albans.
The intention of the Government with respect to those seats
is that they should still remain in reserve, and probably, in
the course of our discussions on the bill now before the
house, there may be opportunities of deliberating on the
best mode of apportioning them. (A laugh.) The hon.
gentleman the member for Sussex asked me whether the
Government have any estimate of the reduction of the con-
stituency by transferring the borough freeholders from the
county. Sir, there are two returns, I believe, on the table
of the house already on that subject ; the amount of those
voters has been accurately stated by another member of the
house in the course of the debate ; and I believe the last
return is 105,000. The same hon. gentleman asked me
whether the 40s. freeholder will vote for the borough in
which he resides. He will vote for the borough in which he
resides if his 40s. qualification is within that borough.
Mr. DODSON—But supposing the 40s. qualification is
not within the borough ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Then he
will have the advantage of polling by means of a voting
paper. Again, lam asked whether it is intended that an
elector who is an occupier of a £lO house, and who is also a
40s. freeholder in the borough where the £lO house is, is to
have only one vote. It is intended that he should have
only one vote, and I think one vote ought to satisfy his
ambition in electing the representative of the town
in which he lives. An hon., gentleman inquired of me
whether I could give him any calculation of the number of
voters that will be added to the constituency by the different
schemes which I have introduced to-night. It will be im-
possible to give any estimate that can be depended upon.
The increase, no doubt, will be very considerable, exceeding
half-a-million. I have no hesitation in saying that the
suffrage will really depend so much on the energy
of individuals—so many, I think, will be invited by
these avenues being thrown open to them for advancing
to the possession of the suffrage—that it is totally impossible
to give that dry statistical estimate of the number which you
could have if it depended merely on property, occupation,
or rating, and which could be ascertained from returns.
The hon. member for Hull asked whether the cost of polling
places for boroughs as well as that of those for counties was
to be defrayed by the locality. It will be found that by this
bill such is not to be the case wherever, as we contemplate
will frequently occur, a public room suitable for the purpose
can be obtained without any expense. We do not propose
that the candidate should be freed from that expenditure
which is a legitimate one • but I think that if the hon.
member paid £4OO for polling places at the last election for
Hull his accounts ought to have been scrutinised with more
severity by the election officer. (A laugh,) The hon. mem-
ber for Cambridge inquired whether by a £lO qualification
in counties I mean only a qualification which arises from
the possession of a house. The bill means a qualification
of £lO which arises from the occupation of lands and tone..
ments. The hon gentleman the member for Southwark
denounced the bill on account of the innovation of
restricting the votes of borough freeholders to the
locality in which their qualification arises ; and this was
the point at which the discussion, leaving the course usual
on such occasions as the present, when hon. members
generally restricted themselves to inquiries, took a new
turn. The moment it passed the gangway inquiries ceased,
and the debate afforded opinions upon the measure. (Hear.)
I do not the least complain of that, but I am sure that gen-
tlemen will not object to my discriminating the character
of the debate. Below the gangway opinions are given upon
the measure, above the gangway there are merely modest
inquiries as to its intent. (Laughter.) The hon. gentle-
man who complained that he had to-day travelled 200 miles
to hear my speech and was extremely disappointed with it
(Mr. Crossley), said that he and his friends wish to main-
tain myself and my friends in power until they are prepared
to take our places. (Renewed laughter.) But he added that
of all the grievances under which they are suffering at pre-
sent, the deficiency which they most experience is a want
of leaders. Now, sir, I think that after the discussion of
to-night that want can hardly be felt. The noble lord the
member for the city of London, the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Sheffield, and the hon. member for Birmingham
have announced themselves as the leaders of the move-
ment ; and, represented by men of that character, autho-
rity, and experience, I do not think that the hon. gentleman
who travelled 200 miles to-day can regret the great effort
which he has made. The noble lord the member for London
has not hesitated a moment in expressing his opinion upon
this bill. He has two objections, which at once decide his
course upon the subject. The noble lord had the advantage
of being acquainted with the provisions of this bill before
they were detailed by me in the house to-night. He must
have become acquainted with them through that corrupt
agency to which the hon. member for Birmingham alluded.
All I can say with respect to that transaction is, that I
witnessed the publication of that information with dis-
may ; and I should have thought that the honourable
gentleman and the noble lord would have acquitted me,
of all members of her Majesty's Government, of any
combination of that kind; for anything more suicidal than
to consent to that revelation before making the statement
which I have had to make, and which by the indulgence of
the house, and almost to my own astonishment, I have suc-
ceeded in making, I cannot conceive. (Hear.) Well, sir,
the noble lord rests his opposition to this measure on two
grand principles. First of all, he cannot consent to any
measure which disfranchises in counties the ancient free-
holds which have existed for 300 or 400 years. I have had
to look into this subject, and I am sorry to say that the
great majority of the freeholds which I have considered are
not of that age. They are of much more modern days, and
have been created in a much simpler and more manufactur-
ing style—(laughter and cheers)—than the territorial tra-
ditions of the noble lord seem to contemplate. "But," says
the noble lord, " I will never consent to it ; I will never be
a party to a bill which disfranchises the hardworking man."
What did the noble lord do in his last Reform Bill ? What
was the first measure in his last bill ? Why, a proposition
to disfranchise all the freemen in England. (Loud cheers.)
So much for this principle of the noble lord. A great and
perilous innovation to restrict the borough freeholders to
vote in the locality in which their qualification exists I
Why, if I mistake not, it was part of the first Reform Bill.
(Hear, hear.) It was advocated by Lord Althorp, then the
leader of the Howe of Commons ; and in the very interest-
ing and able speech made by my hon. friend the member
for Northamptonshire last year, in the course of the debate
upon the motion of the member for Surrey, the attention of
the house was recalled to these very circumstances. Lord
Althorp when he brought forward the Reform Bill was in
favour of providing that the freeholders who resided in
boroughs should vote where their qualification was found.
The noble lord says that he is for mixing the county and
the town. He knows nothing more to be deprecated
than that we should prevent the people of the
towns going to vote in the counties. I also am in
favour of that blending of interests. I know nothing
more advantageous than that people should go from
the towns and vote for the counties, but let them
vote for qualifications in the counties. (Cheers.) But, Sir,
what happened in 1832 ? Why, it was the carrying of the
Chandos clause that made Lord Althorp say be would no
longer insist upon the borough freeholders being restricted
to their towns. It was in consequence of votes being given
to £5O tenants-at-will that that resolution was arrived at;
and yet this is a great and perilous innovation I It is en
innovation which has been discussed in this house often and
often, that was projected by the political colleagues of the
noble lord, and which has, as I believe, been accepted by
the good sense of the country for a considerable period.
(Hear, hear.) It was clear that the moment you considered
the county franchise in the spirit in which, on the part of
the Government, I have attempted to consider it to-day—
the moment you put an end to that exclusive character
which has been complained of in this debate, you must give
the counties, not to any particular order or exclusive class,
but and those who have'
but to inhabitants Q#'

are absurd, and merely seem intended to make it appear that
you are giving something when they really spring from the
fear lest you should give something. (Cheers.) The noble
lord (Lord J. Russell) has referred to another point which,
if there were no other, would be absolutely fatal to the bill,
and that is the transfer of the votes of freeholders who live
in boroughs. (Hear, hear.) We understand that very well,
and I suppose hon. gentlemen opposite understand it very
well too. (Hear, hear.) It is a compensation to hon. gen-
tlemen opposite for the £lO franchise. (Hear, hear.) You
have never had anything more valueless or more perilous
offered to you as compensation. (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord has said that it will interfere with the Parliamentary
franchise of 100,000 voters. Now, I have taken the trouble,
or some of my friends have taken it for me, in anticipation
of what was going to be proposed, to make a dissection of
the electoral body of two boroughs. Here is the register of
the boroughs of Manchester and Salford, which has been
dissected to see how the bill of the right hon. gentleman
will work. In Manchester there are 2,918 persons qualified
to vote for South Lancashire. Of these the persons owning
freeholds and living within the limits of the borough are
1,493, and of those living outside the borough there are
1,425. Of the •whole number there are 1,195 electors of
Manchester who have votes as £lO occupiers. Let the house
observe that 2,918 are the whole number qualified to vote
for the county. Those having votes for Manchester as house
or other occupiers are 1,195, therefore 1,195 cease to be
voters for counties, but have no additional vote for Man-
chester, and you diminish to that extent the county fran-
chise. There are 298 of these voters resident in the borough
who are not now electors for the borough, and who will be
disfranchised for the county, and there remain 1,429, of
whom no clear explanation can be given. They reside out-
side the borough, and may live, indeed, in all parts of the
world. They may, perhaps, be found in every county
in England. Ido not know whether it is intended
that these non-resident freeholders should vote for the
borough, but, if so, the right hon. gentleman re-establishes
a most evil system of a non-resident constituency, and we
shall have to repeal the Act of last session permitting the
Payment of the expenses of voters. If we come to the re-
gister of Salford, the figures are less, but the return is simi-
lar to that of Manchester. Now, if there are 100,000 free-
holders in boroughs having votes for the county, and if we
deprive them of those county votes, there are 40,000, if not
more, non-residents who will be disfranchised altogether.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to these votes for counties, the
bill is a measure of disfranchisement. lam quite certain
the House of Commons will never pass a clause like that.
(Hear, hear.) Ido not think it would be possible to con-
trive anything more likely to excite dissatisfaction through-
out the country, and shake its confidence in, I will not say
the generosity, but the common sense of Parliament. Now,
the object of all this is to make the counties more exclusive.
There is nothing you seem so much afraid of ashaving good
constituencies, and especially free constituencies, in the
counties. The house, perhaps, is not aware of the remark-
able fact that in a large portion of the counties of England,
for many years past, the constituencies have not extended ;
they have even positively diminished. There are 11 coun-
ties in which, in the 15 years from 1837 to 1852, the whole
constituency has diminished not less than 2,000 votes. The
whole county constituency of England Wales has only in-
creased by 30,000 votes, and of that increase more than half
has taken place in Lancashire, Cheshire, and the West Rid-
ing of Yorkshire. Throughout the rest of England, from
the manner in which land is tied up, from the difficulty of
purchasing freeholds, and the increased size of farms, the
constituencies of the counties are stationary or diminishing.
As a compensation to the gentlemen who sat behind him—
and whose opinions, if ho follows them, will be his ruin
(laughter)—the right hon. gentleman insists on transferring
100,000 votes, on a franchise that has existed for 400
years, from the counties of England to the boroughs Now,
the middle classes have also asked for a Reform Bill; but
they want a much better distribution of the electoral power
--(hear, hear)—and the right hon. gentleman, with an
audacity that ja positively interesting—(laughter)
them their c is amply considered because, owing to the
fanaticism prevailing in the country—and I hope the argu-
ment will be found conclusive by the hon. members for
North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate and Mr. Spooner).—
only one English borough returns a Catholic member, and
therefore he has retained the borough of Arundel. (Laughter)
Did• the right hon. gentleman know to whom he was speak-
ing
when he specified Arundel, while he trifled with such
cities as Liverpool and Manchester, and never mentioned
Glasgow ? (Hear, hear.) But all this will be quite under-
stood by those who will read the newspapers to-morrow
morning. The right hon. gentleman had much better have
stood on the ancient practice of his party, and resisted
changes of this nature, or modified those introduced by his
opponents, than have originated a measure like this, which
will create nothing but anger and disgust in the great body
of the people of this country. The noble lord (Lord John
Russell) thinks the measure is not a Conservative one ; no
measure affecting the representation of the people can be
Conservative that disturbs but does nothing to settle. (Hear,
hear.) lam not so anxious about Parliamentary Reform
as not to know it matters little whether a measure is carried
now or four or five years hence. The country is not bound
up with the legislation of any one session or one day. But
when a Government, having the confidence of the Crown,
and speaking from that bench, undertakes to meddle with a
question of this nature, it should not be a thousand times
less Conservative than those who, the right hon. gentleman
says, have been discussing new schemes of representation
throughout the country. If the right hon, gentleman al-
ludes to me, I beg to tell him that my new scheme is a very
old one; it is a scheme that was 60 years ago propounded
by several able and leading men in this country. It was a
fended by eminent and leading men at the period of the last
Reform Bill ; and there has been no time from 1790 to 1859,at
which it has not been upheld and maintained by leading
statesmen, sometimes by both Houses of Parliament, and by
wise and patriotic minds in the community. I have no ob-
jection td the scheme of the right hon. gentleman going
before the people of the united kingdom by the side of my
own. The population of the country has nothing to do with
it ; the wealth of the country has nothing to do with it;
but take away the population and wealth of the country
from consideration, and what use are Reform Bills, or Par-
liaments, or Ministries, or Chancellors of the Exchequer at
all ? (Laughter.) The right hon: gentleman talks about
interests. What are interests? Surely they consist of
the wants and wishes of the people, and the right hon.
gentleman has taken the most efficacious plan—and I thank
him for it—of ascertaining what is the opinion of the people
with regard to this great question. Ido not wish for any
violent political discussion or angry controversy—(hear)--
in or out of the house. I had hoped the experience of 1831
and 1832 would have induced any Govemment who under-
took to deal with this question to do so on'a broad and com-
prehensive principle. I hoped, from what the right hon.
gentleman said, that he was about to do so to -night ; for I
did not for a moment believe that the sketch we saw in a
certain newspaper—bribed, I presume, in supporting this
miserable bill by early information—was a fair description
of the Government measure. I hoped the right hon. gen-
tleman would have taken the bread out of my mouth by a
bill so broad, complete, and worthy of public support that
I could have given it my hearty approval ; and that I
should not be forced, as I now shall be to ask the house
for leave to introduce another bill on 'the subject on an
early day. The more you consider and examine that mea-
sure the more you will find it is based on the principles of
the Reform Bill and of the Constitution ; and that it is in-
finitely more Conservative--looking forward to the next 50
years—than the measure that disturbs everything, will irri-
tate vast masses of the people, and will settle nothing.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND regretted that her Majesty's Go-
vernment had engaged in a-question of this nature. (" Hear,
hear," from Lord J. Russell.) The noble lord said " Hear,',
but he was one of their chief instigators. On a former
occasion the noble lord stated that the present Government
was not accustomed to play this tune ; yet he urged them
to begin. He (Mr. Drummond) thought it rather hard on
the house that they should be reed to listen to a concert
by 13rofessional non-performers—(laushter)—who were
hardly competent to lead a decent mglody. (Laughter.)
But why did not the noble lord
" " Take the good the Gods provide him;
Lovely Thais sits beside him!"
Cheers and laughter; Mr. Roebuck was sitting next to
Lord J. Russell.) The hon. gentleman was quite ready,
" like another Helen, to fire another Troy." He agreed
with the hon. gentleman that the bill did not go to the
point. The noble lord spoke of 40s. freeholders. There
might be some such freeholders as he described, but in
many parts of the country they were in the hands of the
men for whom they worked—generally small farmers. The
40s. freehold of the reign of Henry VI. was now worth £5O,
and, if the Reform Bill of 1832 had done anything in a
really Conservative spirit, it would have raised the 40s.
freehold to ag. (Hear.) He did not understant what the
present Reform Bill was to do. He could not understand
what was its object, or the manner in which that object was
to be attained. (Hear, hear.) The last bill was an act of
vengeance by the Whigs on the party that had kept them
so long out of power. (Laughter-) To attain this end,
they deceived their muter, and they undermined th e
throne. (Laughter.) They coerced the House of Lords,
and threatened that if they could not carry their bill by
any other means they would do so by insurrection, and by
a resort to blood and battle. (Hear, hear.) They suc-
ceeded, and they had some merit in success. (Hear, hear.)
All that he understood, but he confessed he did not under-
stand why they were to have this new Reform Bill from
the Government. (Hear, hear,) He quite understood the
hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bright.) He was perfectly
honest and fair in what he was doing. He (Mr. Drum-
mond) knew what he was at, and what he aimed at, but
he repeated he could not understand about this bill,
or how to meet it. (Hear, hear.) It was said
everybody wanted reform, but then came the question what
was meant by reform ? In reality reform meant to take
taxation off yourself and put it on somebody else. (A laugh)
That was, no doubt, the meaning of the bill of the hon.
gentleman opposite, though he would not enter into the dis-
cussion of that measure till he introduced it. The ultra-
liberals, the gentlemen who were further advanced than
other people in the way of progress—how far down he did
not know (a laugh)—thought fit to meet together in com-
mittee-room No. 17, and took it into their heads that
there should be reform ; then, they agreed to ask the
hon. member opposite (Mr. Bright) to bring forward a
bill, as, indeed, he was the only man who had honesty and
ability enough to carry out such a measure. (Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) But everybody knew well enough what it all
meant. (Hear.) It mattered little what was the extension
of the franchise that might be proposed. After the first
Reform Bill was announced he (Mr. Drummond) said there
was no principle in £lO any more than in £9 or £B, for the
truth was that once begun they could not stop short of uni-
veval suffrage. (Hear, hear.) How could they stop short?
It did not at all follow that it was revolutionary. That
which was really revolutionary was to put political power
into the hands of men who had no property themselves, but
who would take upon them to dispose of the property of
those who had. (Hear.) The settlement of this point was
the great problem to be solved, but it was not solved by the
hon. gentleman opposite, nor was it:solved by the bill which
had been brought before them that night. (Hear.) If they
preserved political power in the hands of those who had pro-
perty, then they might extend the franchise as far as they
pleased, (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON would not now enter upon the
merits of the bill which the right hon. gentleman had in-
troduced. He thought it better to defer expressing an opi-
nion till he saw the bill itself, as it would no doubt clear up
a great many points which the right hon. gentleman, in
the long statement he had made to the house, had not, per-
haps, fully explained. He wished to guard himself against
inference being drawn ono way or the other by his abstain-
ing at present from going into details, and to suggest
to the right hon. gentleman that when he made his reply
he should state when it was his intention to propose the
second reading of the bill. He hoped a sufficient interval
would elapse to enable the house and the country fully to
consider the measure that he had proposed.
Mr. CROSSLEY, having travelled a distance of 200 miles
to hear the statement of the right hon. gentleman, must be
allowed to express his regret at the result. It was full of
high-sounding words, but there was very little in them. To
use a homely Yorkshire expression, " there was a great deal
more cloth than dinner." (Laughter.) The working classes
had neither part nor lot in the matter. There could be no
better proof of this than the condition of the borough which
he had the honour to represent. He employed,"in addition
to women and children, not less than I,3vv"" men, not ow 91,