The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,' TUESDAY EVENING

sent occasion, take these into consideration, and he trusted
that Government would proceed with their proposal, and
not consent to delay.
Mr. C. BRUCE thought that they ought not to report
progress, but that one of the seats should be given to Birk-
enhead. He protested against the motion that these four
seats could be assigned only to English constituencies.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that though additional mem-
bers were given at the time of the Reform Bill to Scotland
and to Ireland, it did not follow that they should on every
occasion disturb the proportion of members allotted to each
portion of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land.

The motion for reporting progress was negatived without

a division.
On the question that clause 4 stand part of the bill the
committee divided

Ayes
Noes 26

Majority in favour of the clause —137
The remaining clauses were then agreed to.
Sir F. GOLDSMID did not see the fairness of giving all
the four members to one part of the country, and should, at
a future stage, call attention to the case of the London
University.
Mr. AYRTON said he should, on the bringing up of the
report, move the recommittal of the bill.
Mr. STIRLING gave notice that, on the report, he
should state the claims of the Universities of Scotland.
The preamble ,was then agreed to, and the house re-
sumed.
COUNTY SURVEYORS, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. SCULLY:suggested that the best course would be to
have a select committee to inquire into the principle of the
bill, and moved that the bill be read a third time that day
three months.
Mr. ST. GEORGE said that he had received from his
constituents numerous strong expressions of dissent with
respect to the bill, and supported the amendment.
Lord T. BROWNE, as one of the Irish members who
had recommended the introduction of the bill, thought that
the salaries at present given to the county surveyors were
not adequate pay for their services. The salary was nomi-
nally £3OO a-year, but the travelling expenses were at least
one-third of that sum. The objection which had been
urged against the bill, that no taxation ought to be levied
upon Ireland until first sanctioned by the presentment cess,
he admitted had some weight, and was deserving of consi-
deration. It was not correct to state that the bill proposed
to double the .o.tartes or all surveyors, as the proposal would
only:be applicable to a small portion of the Irish counties.
He regretted the opposition to the bill, because the measure
carried out the recommendations of a committee which sat
upon the subject.
Sir E. GROGAN said the question was whether the bill
was one in the right direction. He thought it was not.
The question required great consideration, with the view
of having competent surveyors in every county, devoting
their time to the duties of their office, and not appoint-
ing delegates to work for them.
Mr. HERBERT said that a large majority of the Irish
members had signed a requisition to the Secretary for Ire-
land praying him to bring in the present bill. There had
been a:searching investigation into the subject in the year
1857, and there was not a single clause in the bill which
had not been recommended by the committee who sat upon
that occasion. Any postponement of the measure would
be doing an act of great it to a very deserving body
of men.

After some remarks from Mr. BUTT,
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that, as a cess payer, he objec-
ted to the Government proposal, and could not in any way
agree with the argument of the honourable member for
Youghal, which appeared to him to establish all the objec-
tions to the principle of the bill. The measure would open
a rich door for the increase of taxation. He hoped
and trusted that the house would not get into
committee on the bill, but would at once reject it.
He objected to the appointment and superannuation of sur-
veyors by the Lord-Lieutenant, and hoped the house would
not allow the bill to go into committee.
Mr. CARD WELL said that though the bill had met
with more opposition than he expected, yet the support
which it had received showed that it had not been intro-
duced in defiance of the feelings of the people of Ireland.
In 1857 a committee had inquired into the subject of county
surveyors in Ireland, but the bill now before the house was
intended to carry the report of the committee into effect.
That committee came to the conclusion that the salaries of
surveyors should be increased, and that they should be
entitled to superannuation allowances. A memorial nu-
merously signed by Irish members, had been sent to him on
the subject, and a large majority of the grand juries of Ire-
land had declared themselves in favour of the bill, while
not one petition had been presented against it. The inten-
tion of the Government was to pass this bill as it stood, but
he should be ready in committee to listen to any sugges-
tions on the slit ject. (Hear, hear.)
After some further discussion,
The house divided, when the numbers wet e

Ayes.. 4 . 152
Noes..
Majority
The house then went into committee on this bill.
Clause 1 to 3 were agreed to.
On the motion to agree to clause 4, which gave power to
increase the salaries of the county surveyors,
Mr. HASSARD moved to insert the words " from time
to time," in order to give the grand juries power to revise
the clause at different periods.
Some discussion ensued upon the amendment.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
Mr. B. OSBORNE moved the addition of a proviso, to
the effect that the application for the increase of salary
should be made, in the first instance, to the presentment
sessions.

Some discussion followed, in which Lord Naas, Mr.
Butt, Mr. M‘Mahon, Mr. Monsell, Mr. Scully, Lord C.
Hamilton, and other members took part.
Ultimately a division was taken, when the numbers
were—

For the amendment 54
Against
Majority
A motion was then made that the Chairman report pro-
gress, and the committee divided, when the numbers were—
For reporting progress
Against
Majority
The discussion was accordingly continued, and various
verbal amendments were agreed to, when another division
was taken on the question of adjourning the discussion,
when the numbers were—
For adjournment 2l
Against 59
Majority .. —3B
Som© further conversation ensued, and it was agreed
that the Chairman report progress.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at half-past two o'clock.