The Sun.
London, England, 1859-11-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, NOVEMBER 26, 1859.

TEE SUNDERLAND SHIPOWNERS AND

PROTECTION SOCIETY.

On Tuesday a meeting of the Sunderland Ship-
owners Society was held in the Exchange in that
town, with a view to form a Chamber of Com-
merce, in connection with the society, and for,
other business. Mr. Lowe occupied the chair. The
Secretary, Mr. Robt. Brown, read a series of resolu-
tions, with a view to the union proposed, and he
also read the following letters .
"London, 14, St. James's-place, Nov. 8.
"My dear Sir,—l have taken the opportunity which my
presence in London has given ins to make inquiries as to
the intention of the authorities on the subject pf passing
tolls and other imposts that injuriously affect the shipping
interest. I find the question in a very perplexing state,
chiefly arising from the forme of Parliament, the nature of
which I will endeavour to explain to you.
"In the first place, I may toll you that individually I
gave my hearty approval to the form of Bill introduced by
Mr. Lowe in 1856, which dealt generally with the subject,
and included all imposts whatever, including local dues and
passing tolls. This form of proceeding, however, had the
disadvantage of combining opposition, and thus making it
more likely to be successful. This was felt by Mr. Lowe,
who introduced a Bill in the following year, which dealt
with passing tolls alone, and this Bill had every prospect
of being carried, when it was objected, in the Standing
Orders Committee, that the Bill was in the nature of a pri-
vate Bill. The question was referred to the Speaker, who
decided that it was in the nature of a private Bill, and that
consequently all the conditions of a private Bill must be
complied with before it could in accordance with the rules
of the House be proceeded with. Now, the first condition
of a private Bill is that notice shall be given to the parties
whose interests aro sought to be affected, and that the no-
tices shall ,be published in the journals of the district in
three successive weeks in the month of November preced.
ing the session of Parliament. This had not been done
and hence Mr. Lowe's Bill, by the rules of the House, fe
to the ground.

" That which was fatal to Mr. Lowe's Bill in 1857 would
be fatal to any similar Bill in 1860, and hence I naturally
feel much anxiety on the subject, the more especially as I
know the shipownlins of the North of England take a deep
interest in it.

" Acting, then, on my own responsibility, not having time
to consult with any one (for the notices must be prepared
and sent out to-morrow), I have instructed Mr. Wyatt, the
well-known Parliamentary agent, to draw up notices, and
to do everything that may be necessary to comply with the
rules of the house, so that a bill to abolish passing tolls
(which I shall move myself) may not be met and over-
thrown by a mere technical objection. I shall be glad if you
will lay this matter at your earliest convenience before the
Shipowners' Society, in order that their opinion may be
taken of the propriety of the course I have adopted, and that
they may assume the position, if they should approve of it,
that I have thought it right temporarily to adopt.
" Before I leave London I will endeavour to ascertain the
views of those who were the most strenuous advocates of

our views on former occasions. I have no doubt that we
may rely with confidence on their hearty co-operation. As
the matter of passing tolls is of equal interest to the ship-
owners of the Tyne and other northern ports, perhaps it
might be desirable to ascertain their views, which you could
easily do.—Bolieve me, yours faithfully,
"HENRY FENIVICX,
" Mr. Robert Brown, Secretary of Shipowners'
Society, Sunderland."

"8, Austinfriars, London, Nov. 17.
"My dear Sir,—l have your note of yesterday, and I
trust you will convey to the committee of the Shipowners'
Society my best thanks for their invitation to attend the

public meeting which is to bo held on Tuesday next. The
question they propose to discuss is one of great national im-
portance, and ono in which I am myself, as well as a large
number of my constituents, very deeply interested. I would
therefore have had great pleasure in accepting the invita-
tion you have been so good as to send to me, but unfortu-
nately my engagements aro such that it is not in my power
to bo in Sunderland on the day fixed for the meeting.
"I would readily meet your wishes and give my views
in writing, bit the subject is far too important, and I may
add, too serious, to be casually discussed in the narrow
limits of a letter. So much have I felt this to be the ease
that since Parliament rose every spare hour I could com-
mand has been devoted to its study, and my views are em-
bodied in a work new in the press, to be entitled ' Our Mer-
chant Shipping ; its Present State Considered.' Whenever

that work is published I shall have great pleasure in pre-
senting copies to you for the use of the committee of Ship-
owners Society of Sunderland ; and though it is not to be
expected that we can all agree on a subject where opinions
are at present so conflicting, I do trust that in all those re-
medies which are practicable I shall have their generous
support. Unless there is unity among the shipowners
themselves for the adoption of those remedial measures which

it is in the power of the Legislature to grant, we shall be
treated as we have hitherto to )n, and other class interests,
considering us as a rope of sand,' will as and obtain
relief from their own peculiar burdens, while those which
have so long oppressed our merchant shipping will be
allowed to romain.—Very faithfully yours,

" Mr. Robert Brown." " W. S. LINDSAY.
The resolutions read by the secretary were then
aken up seriatim. The first was to the following

effect :

" The Sunderland Insurance Clubs, by which the Ship-
owners Society has been hitherto wholly supported, having
made their future support thereof dependent on its funds
being contributed generally by the shipowners of the port,
and the commerce and manufactures of Sunderland having
identical interests with its shipping, it is resolved that the
society be designated ' The Sunderland Shipowners society
and Chamber of Commerce,' and that all persons be mem-
bers thereof who contribute ss. per annum."

On this resolution being put to the meeting,
Alderman JOSHUA WILSON said, it involved the
consideration of why the Shipowners Society had
not had that general support from the great body
of shipowners to which a society occupying its
position was entitled. He considered that one
great reason was, the difference of opinion between
the members of the society and the great bulk of
the shipowners as to what description of measures
was best calculated to benefit the shipping inte-
rest. The society, instead of doing their best
in assisting the borough members and members
of Parliament generally of free trade principles to
reduce and take off the onerous burdens on ship-
ping, had been led away into asking protection
again, and pressing the necessity of retaliatory
measures against certain nations which had not ad-
mitted British shipowners to the full enjoyment of
those privileges which Britain had conceded to
them. He considered that, though these nations
might not have acted to them exactly as they could
have wished, it was bad policy to commence reta-
liatory measures. He had read an able letter of
the secretary of the Shipowners Society, and he
must say that in some portions of the letter, parti-
cularly those in which he brought forward the
principles of political economy, he fully concurred;
but he must say he could not agree with that gen-
tleman that the shipowners of this country required
encouragement—or, in other words, required pro-
tection. He did not agree with him that their
shipowners were losing ground, and that the fo-
reigners were encroaching on them. Ho considered
that the depressed state of shipping was in a great
measure, if not wholly, owing to the fact that the
increased profits in the shipping interest, resulting
from the repeal of the Navigation Laws, together
with the Crimean war, had caused such an influx of
capital into the shipping interest of this country
that now, when there was a reaction of trade, there
was too much capital invested not only in the ship-
ping of this country, but in that of others, for they
must know that the Americans, through the Cali-
fornian mania and other things, rushed into ship-
ping and built too many ships, and that the trading
interests of the world were so united that the ship-
ping of one country could not now suffer without
that of other countries suffering with it. He wished
to bring forward a few statistics to show the great
advantage the repeal of the Navigation Laws had
been to the shipping of this country. (Hear.) He
might state that the comparative tonnage of British
and foreign shipping employed in their imports
and exports was not now so much a criterion by
which to judge of the progressive or non-progres-
sive state of British shipping as it was formerly ;
because, by the repeal of the Navigation Laws there
was an immense trade opened to their shipping
which was closed by the operation of those laws. A
ship could now carry sugar from Brazil or Havana
to France on the same terms as French ships ; it
could do the same to America, but it could not have
done so before. Now, British chips that carried
goods to foreign countries did not figure in the re-
turns, as they would formerly have done, though
they were still employed. In the same way the re-
peal of the navigation laws caused more foreigners
to come to this country, but he maintained, as he
had maintained before the committee of the House
of Lords 10 years ago, that this did not injure Bri-
tish shipowners. For instance, a Hamburg ship,

with a cargo of sugar from Havannah, which, while
the navigation laws were in force, would never
have gone to London, would now be induced to land
its cargo in that port. They still, however wanted
such cargoes on the continent, and they could send
to London and get their supplies thence, instead of
getting them direct in their own ships; and he
would ask whether goods warehoused in London
and wanted on the continent were not more likely
to give increased employment to British shipping
than to diminish the amount of such employment ?
To make his position good as to the benefit the re-
peal of the navigation laws had done to British
shipping, he would take the tonnage registered in
the United Kingdom. He found that in 1801 there
were 1,766,000 tons registered. In 1837 that had
increased to 2,296,000 tons, being an increase in 36
years of 610,000 tons. About:lB37 he believed there
was au'impetus given to shipping by bad harvests;
and that was succeeded by Sir R. Peel's free-trade
measures in 1842. The free-trade measures gave
great employment to shipping, for he found in the
12 years from 1837 to 1849, when the navigation
laws were repealed, that the increase of shipping
in the United Kingdom was 1,131,000. Thus, in
12 years, there was twice the increase there was
in the 36 years previous, showing that the profits
of shipping must have been better than those
of other trades; that the capital flowed from
these trades into shipping. Then, the last day
of 1849 saw the repeal of the navigation laws, by
which the British shipowner was forced to compete
with the untaxed foreigner, and by which he was
going to be ruined. Now, he found in the eight
years from 1849 to 1857 there was an increase of not
less than 1,064,000 tons of shipping, nearly equal to
that of the 12 years before, and twice as great as
during the 36 pars of protection, thus showing
that there was a regular rush of capital into the
shipping interest on the repeal of the Navigation
Laws. It might be said that was owing to the
Crimean war ; hut, if he recollected, the Russian
war commencedin 1854, and in the eight years he
had referred to he found that one half of the increase
was in the first four, and the other in the remainder
—so that in each four years from the repeal of the
Navigation Laws to the year 1857 there was as
much increase as in the 36 years from 1801 to 1837.
lie considered they could not have a greater proof
than that of the advantage of free trade to the Bri-
tish shipowner. It would be seen, he added, that
the coasting trade, from which the Americans ex-
cluded British vessels, was comparatively small, and
a trade to which their own ships were more adapted.
Besides, Britain did not admit foreigners into her
coasting trade. When the Navigation Laws were
repealed, he said, that was a matter of great indif-
ference, because he believed very few foreign ships
would come if admitted, finding, as a shipowner,
his own profits less in the coasting trade than in
the foreign trade. The manning of the navy, Mr.
Wilson went on to say, was the great claim which
shipowners set up that they might be protected—or
encouraged, as the word now was—by Government.
Now, he found that since the Navigation Laws were
repealed there had been an increase of 50,000 in the
men employed in their navy. So much for free
trade. He did not think they would be able to find
an increase of 50,020 men employed in the British
navy in any other eight years. llow, he proceeded
to ask, could Government encourage the shipping
interest, how could they raise the freights one penny
by any protection they could afford Before they
could do that they must protect sufficient trade to
employ the whole mercantile marine, for ships would
go out of the protected trade where the profits were
less into the protected trade where they were mono.
Thus—a Sunderland shipowner who carried coals
to France told him that a customer of his in Rouen
who had ships of his own, and used to employ them
in carrying his own coals, had now found it more
profitable to employ those in the trade protected by
the French Government, and have his coals brought
in Sunderland bottoms. Before they could raise
their freights by protection they must abandon all
the trades where they had to compete unprotected
with foreigners. In order to employ their present
mercantile marine they must compete with foreigners
—therefore he considered it was no use running any
longer after the ghost of protection. He found from
the returns for 1201 that there were 922,000 tons of
British shipping entered inwards as compared with
780,000 tons from foreign ports. Is 1810 there were
1,760,000 tons of foreign shipping, and only 896,000
of British, and this was in the heyday of full pro-
tection. Mr. Wilson proceeded to say he had not
known whether he would be permitted to speak at
that meeting, as he had not subscribed to the so-
ciety ; but if the society would follow the advice of
their two excellent members, and turn their atten-
tion to gutting off the burdens, which he considered
the real thing that affected them, he would be ready
to subscribe. The first thing was to make the
society more popular. The untaxed foreigner was
not the only party they had to compete with, they
bad to compete with the untaxed railway, which
had no passing tolls to pay, and he considered that
the Shipowners' Society ought to turn their atten-
tion to getting these obnoxious imposts taken off.
Then there was compulsory pilotage, and the timber
duties, to which latter he did not think there was a
parallel in point of inconsistency and injustice. He
hoped the members of the society would exert them-
selves to their utmost to get off these burdens; and
he believed they would find both their members
anxious to aid and abet them in so doing. (Cheers.)
Resolutions to extend the constitution of the
Shipowners' Society having been agreed to,
The SECRETARY next read a circular letter from
the Shipowners' Society of London, intimating a
great meeting to be held on Tuesday, the 29th inst.,
at the London Tavern, to petition Parliament in
favour of an inquiry into the state of British navi-
gation, and requesting to be informed whether the
Sunderland Society concurred in the course pro-
posed to be taken.

In connection with this communication, the fol-
lowing resolution was laid before the meeting :-
6, That it be an instruction to the committee to prepare
petitions to both Houses of Parliament, to be presented as
soon m Parliament shall reassemble, praying for a compre-
hensive, searching, and impartial inquiry into the actual
condition of British navigation, and the causes that have
led to its present disastrous depression, as well as into all
the laws and regulations under which it is now conducted."

Mr. DENNISTON said he certainly could have no
objection to prepare petitions to the Legislature to
make any inquiries respecting the depressed state
of British shipping ; but in his mind the conviction
was that it was Zscarcely necessary to make any
further inquiries—that it was patent to everybody
that British shipping was in a depressed and ruin-
ous condition. (Cheers.) It was patent even to
those who were once free-traders. They could
scarcely go to any seaport town in the kingdom
without seeing the great mass of foreign shipping.
There were parties in that town who were free-
traders once, but whose free trade in shipping mat-
ters was giving way, and who began to ask the
question, is there no remedy for this ? A gentle-
man belonging to that town a little while ago hap-
pened to be in Bristol, and walking round the docks
there with a friend, the first thing he saw was ship
after ship foreign, foreign, foreign. He turned to
his friend and said, " This is certainly astonishing,"
and the answer was—and from a party well
conversant with the whole business—that for
the last three or four years nearly all the im-
ports have been wade in foreign bottoms, and
that British shipping was gradually receding
from Bristol docks. And that was not an
isolated case. What had taken place there
had taken place elsewhere—at Sundirland,,Leith,
Cardiff, and Hull ; British shipping, was most as-
suredly receding before the foreigner. The ques-
tion was—why should it be so ? and any ono who
had given himself the trouble to understand the
business would have no difficulty in coming to the
conclusion that the repeal of the Navigation Laws
was the sole or main cause of the present state of
depression. (Cheers.) When those laws were re-
at the instance of those
eatumree'asure, or rather the ship-
pwehaoledp,ertmheittLedegitshl
owners, retained clauses whereby certain powers
were given to the Government, should it be neces-
sary to act upon them ; in case it became apparent
that it was certain ruin to the British shipowner
to continue the operation of the repeal, Govern-
ment could, by an Order in Council, return to the
status quo ; or if, after the invitations to foreign
nations, by throwing open Brish trade these nation
did not open their trade to them, it was competent
for Government to do what would protect them. A
shipowner standing on the dock side and seeing a
waggon running into his ship would not hesitate
to put his finger on the break. The Order in Coun-
cil was the break, and the Government the breaks-
man ; therefore his conviction was that the first
thing to be done was to go to the Government. In-
quiry would postpone the question, and while the
grass was growing the horse was starving. They
wanted a thing that world come into operation
almost immediately. Foreign nations were invited
to reciprocity ; they had not granted it, because the
British Government had not pressed it on them
and the Legislature had been supine in the matter.
The Americans had closed their coasting trade,
which was thousands of miles long. Why ? Not
because the British coasting trade was closed, but
because it had never been fairly pressed home to
them. Had the British Government used the

power they had in their hands, they would now
have been in the enjoyment of trades compara-'
tively closed to then. What was taking place in the
American lakes was a sample of what was taking
place on the ocean. There were 1,442 vessels, with
387,000 tons, on the American side, while on the
Canadian side there were only 187 ships, with a
tonnage of 51,000. The reason was that the Ameri-
cans said to the Canadians, "You cannot go from
American port to American port, that is reserved
to us; you have been fools enough to open your
side ; we can go from Canadian port to Canadian
port and back again to American ports as it may
suit us." The Canadian was like the British ship.
owner, placed at a great disadvantage, and the
result was that he got narrowed in his resources.
He apprehended one of the reasons why the C9ll-
- of the society had been altered was that
it might be more popular and have more powerful
action on the. Legislature. There were Free-traders
yet even in shipping; there were people who in
time of war would be peace men; there were men
who in words would tell them that armies were
altogether unnecessary, that arming themselves was
inviting somebody else to arm ; there were people
who had strange enough notions, and there would
be such people to the end of time. These might be
put by as having no weight in questions like the
present. Mr. Wilson had stated some facts respect-
ing protection and its operation. He said some
French shipowner, who was also a manufacturer, and
who had been in the habit of sending his ships to
Sunderland for coals, had found it more profitable to
put his vessels into the protected trade, and of course
Mr. Wilson's deduction was, that there ceased to be
any protection. Now, if that argument was good for
anything at all—if protection was no protection, then
he should give no opposition to their desire for it.
But the French people and their Emperor know
that it was protection, and they were nursing up a
maritime power which would startle some of them,
and even Mr. Wilson, by and by. (Cheers.)
Mr. Denniston went on to refer to statistics
in support of his position. In the seven years pre-
vious to 1349, he said, they built a certain amount
of tonnage, and in the seven years subsequent to
the same date they built a certain amount of ton-
nage, and the difference between that tonnage was
small compared to the great increase iu imports
and exports, which in the former period amounted
to about £200,000,000, and in the latter to no less
than £335,000,000. But what had the foreigner
been doing? In the first-named period his tonnage
was about 3,000,000, but is the last it was close
upon 7,000,000. They asked, were they fairly dealt
with in being exposed to such a competition as
that ? Mr. Denniston concluded by again urging
the necessity for appealing to Government on the
subject.
The resolution was then put from the chair, and
unanimously adopted.
Mr. R. M. HUDSON moved :
"That having reference to the active interest which has
been always taken by the senior member for this borough
in the shipping interest and trade of Sunderland, as well as
to his pecuniary connexion therewith, it be an instruction
to the committee to request Henry Fenwick, Esq., M.P.,
to accept the office of president of the society."
Mr. NICHOLSON secon4ed the restitution, which
was carried by acclamation.
Mr. PEN RICK, M.P., in acknowledging the com-
pliment, said that if in any matter be could be
of any service to them they might rely on every
exertion in his power. I feel (he continued) you
have acted a very wise part to-day in extending the
basis of the Shipowners' Society. Every man must
have felt in any business transactions with it that
it was founded on somewhat of a narrow basis, that
it took more especially one view of a subject, and
therefore it naturally did not meet with that popu-
lar support to which many of its objects fully en-
titled it. Now, however, that the merchants, manu-
facturers, brokers, and others are invited to join, it
will not be the representative exclusively of a
particular interest in this town, but will represent
the amalgamated interests of the town generally.
I think, therefore, whenever its opinion is brought
to bear on any subject, that opinion will be brought
to beai with greater weight by far than it could
have been while the society was in its former nar-
row position. In regard to the reciprocity ques-
tion, Mr. Fenwick expressed himself as follows :
I may be permitted to say that I cordially concur in
the resolution which has been passed to petition
Parliament for a severe and impartial investigation
into the present position of the shipping interest.
A committee of the House of Commons will be for-
med, which will investigate the question in all its
bearings. There will be persons on that commit tee
representing not only the shipownins interest, but
the free trading interests. The subject will undergo
most careful investigation, and then we shall see
where in reality the injury complained of exists.
We shall then be told what are the remedies to be
applied. For my own part I shall not venture to
give any opinion further than this, that I have
never been yet of that extreme opinion which some
people have had—namely, that reciprocity was of
no use ; for I have always thought that if you could
get reciprocity it would be a most advantageous
thing to the shipowner, and that it was our duty,
so far as consistent with well recognised commercial
principles, to insist on that reciprocity from other
countries. Passing on to speak of the other bur-
dens to which British shipping was subjected, Mr.
Fenwick again read, for the benefit of those who
had recently entered the room, the letter given
above, as read by the secretary. He then pro-
eeeded—The meaning of this letter is simply
this :—He saw when in London that if something
was not done immediately the next session of
Parliament would be of no use to them. It was
necessary that notices should be put in
the newspapers in three weeks in November.
The consequence was that he undertook that duty
himself, employed a Parliamentary agent, and
notices having been given, the shipowners in the
north, if they were in earnest, wore in a position to
go to Parliament for a bill in reference to passing
tolls, and he Was willing to propose it. But how
was this to be done ? They knew the old fable of
Hercules and the peasant ; when the cart got into
the rut, he prayed for assistance from Hercules, and
the god of strength told the peasant to put his own
shoulder to the wheel. That was the recommen-
dation he had to give to the shipowners of Sunder-
land. If a bill was introduced it must be by the
instruction of the shipowners, and they must retain
a Parliamentary agent—retain counsel, and have
witnesses. They must do all 'this, for if they difl
not no exertions on the part of their members or of
Government could be of the slightest effect what-
ever. That was the position of the passing tolls,
and the matter rested entirely in the hands of the
shipowners. This was a question which not only
affected the people of Sunderland, Seaham, Hartle-
pool, Stockton, the Tyne, and other northern ports.
He suggested that they should have delegates and
meetings in these different towns, and get the
sinews of war for the purpose of carrying on the
battle. If that was not done, no member or Govern-
ment would be of the slightest use.
Mr. SPARK—Of course, the coalowners would be
called upon to join.
Mr. FENWICK—AII who were interested in it
should joinin the movement.

Mr. S. J. HOWE—Is the foreigner to have the
advantage of the repeal of the passing tolls ?
Mr. FEN WICK.—It is very little he will get.
Mr. How E—l say, unless he reciprocates, let us
be as we are.

Mr. FENWICK regretted that his suggestion was to
be met in that way. They were surely not determined
to sit down like the peasant and let their cart lie in
the rut all their lives, and to say that somebody
else's cart would avoid the rut if they were taken
out of it? He had reason to know that their exer-
tions would be seconded and assisted most strongly
by most powerful parties; and therefore he asked
them not to be drawn into a course that was im-
practicable, and forget a path which was alike
practicable, and could be easily obtained ; but to
I turn their attention to this really practicable sub-
ject. (Applause.)
Mr. DENNISTON said the question on which Mr.
Fenwick had been speaking was one on which the
shipowners were divided. The abolition of the
passing tolls would not be universally beneficial.
What was the race now ? What is that which is
pressing upon the shipowner in the local trade ? It
was the screw colliers screwing him down. (Hear.)
When a ship made 12 voyages, and the collier
made 50, if they relieved it of their charges—which
was 50 times repeated on the collier—they would
make it. a greater competitor to the shipowner. It
would be taking a load off his most powerful com-
petitor.

The CHAIRMAN thought Mr. Denniston took a
most limited view of the question. There was only
a small passing toll to be paid at Whitby and
Bridlington. The principal passing tolls the col-
liers did not pay.
Mr. CANDLISH said he should like to ascertain
the views of the meeting as to legislative action
being taken on the subjects to which reference had
been made, and the objections which had been
taken by Mr. DenniOton and Mr. Howe to the
course proposed by Mr. Fenwick. Their views
seemed to be most dog-in-the-manger like—neither
to eat themselves nor to allow anybody else to eat.
The question which they had to ask themselves