The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-20 00:00:00

prejudicial to tb .e public weal. (Hear.) After all the criti-
cism we ha ye at various times heard in this house, lam
myself eve Ty; day more strongly of opinion that measures
for the rec p astruction of Parliament ought to be large arid
compreh enaive ones. If you cannot pass large and compre-
hensive measures, the only conclusion which I can draw is
that tr here is no necessity for them—(hear)—but, whesayon
ate d' nlingwith a subject so important as the reconstruction
of P erliament, you require all the responsibility of a Mini-
stry, and all the information and all the regard to various
inter eats which can be secured by it, but which cannot be
expected from gentlemen who arrogate to themselves the
title of " inatependent members"—a title to which I trust we
?all, even when in office, have a fair claim. A gentleman
leakes up n fragment of a great subject; he becomes ena-
moured with the results of his own meditations; he thinks
that the conclusions at which he has arrived from the
force of his own thought are the only ones
which can save the State, and he is too eager
to force those conclusions upon, the acceptance of
parliament, without reference to the interests which their
adoption may injure, but which ought to be dulyconsidered
in any scheme which attempts to do justice to the whole
country. I have the strongest objections to the measure
which is introduced to-night by the hon. gentleman. I
think that it would have a very injurious effect upon the
country. I think that it would in many counties give
newer to those who are not fairly connected with the pre-
dominant property and the predominant industry of the
country, and I also entertain the objections which have
been urged with singular ability by my hon. friend the
member for North Warwickshire, which are well deserving
the attention of the house, and which I am sure will com-
mand the attention of the public—(hear, hear)—but this
is not the occasion on Which to debate the merits of the
measure, because even with the rigid programme for the
conduct of the Government business which has been an-
nounced by the noble leader of the house, we shall pro-
bably have another opportunity of discussing them ; nor
should I have touched upon any portion of the scheme had
it not been for the misapprehension of the hon. gentleman
with reference to the conduct of the late Government upon
this subject. Totally irrespective of my objection to an
isolated measure—totally irrespective of my conviction that
you ought not to deal with the subject unless you are pre-
pared to deal with it in a comprehensive manner—totally
independent of the objections which arise from my belief
that it is impossible, in the present temper of the country,
to deal with the subject in a comprehensive manner, and
giving credit to the Government for being actuated in
the course they are taking—not by the mean motives
which have been imputed to them bytheir particular friends
—(laughter)—but by that sense of duty which I trust will
always influence gentlemen in their position—it is with re-
gret that, under the circumstances, I shall oppose the mea-
sure of the hon. gentleman. I deeply regret that there
appears to be a prospect of the waste of valuable time—of
that limited portion of the session which is accorded to pri-
vate members not connected with the Government for their
attempts at legislation. I cannot myself conceive at this
moment—l am unable to form any clear idea as to what
can be the object of hon. gentlemen opposite and their sup-
porters in attempting this reform of the House of Com-
mons by measures of retail. The great wholesale firm
announced that it is a transaction beyond their powers
of capital and enterprise. (Laughter.) What probability
of success can attend these hucksters—(great laughter)
who come forward to satisfy the wants of the nation
when the great association has announced that it is im-
possible for them to accomplish the feat? Their object
cannot be to obtain popularity in the country. I believe my-
self that, on the whole, there is no subject so unpopular in
England at present as Parliamentary reform. Is it to obtain
popularity in this house ? I will say nothing of my friends
here, who, I think, during the campaign of reform here last
year behaved with great temperance and forbearance—
(hear, bear, and oh)—and gave every opportunity to the
Government to carry their bill if they could. But I can say
aemeahing of the feelings of hon. gentlemen opposite, be-
rms.% month after monthl watched their countenances, and
saw men representing capital cities and large constituencies
-whose teeth wore chattering in their heads—(laughter)—
whenever the order of the day was read. Theirpallid visages
could lot be concealed from the commonest observers; and
in the lobbies you saw them shaking in their shoes—
I renewed laughter)--at the threatening invasion of a
£6 constituency. Why, sir, these are facts which
-convinced me that the honourable gentleman and his
friends will obtain no popularity among their co-mates
and colleagues in this house by the course they propose to
pursue. Well, then, what can be their motive ? Is it the
honourable object of proving that, though they are taking
an unpopular course as far as the country is concerned—
though they are taking an odious course—(laughter)—as far
as their intimate friends are concerned—that they are still
consistent, they have not changed their minds, and though
changes may have occurred in other quarters, they are the
same as when they presented themselves upon the hust-
ings? If that be the result which they desire, then I say
it is one which they can obtain without wasting the time
of Parliament, and without still further injuring that cause
of Parliamentary reform to which they are devoted. They
can have a public meeting; Willies rooms may be once more
engaged—(laughter)—and, though no compact may be en-
tered into, still they may make a public demonstration
which will prove to the country that their opinions are per-
fectly unchanged, and that whenever an opportunity offers
itself they will carry them into effect, I really wish
they would consider the practicability and feasibility
of such a scheme, because it is only on Wednesdays
the noble lord intends that they shall have an opportunity
of bringing forward these measures. But on Wednesdays
we have a prospect of some very important and interesting
legislation—(hear, hear)—and I confess I look forward
with dread to a repetition of the scenes of last year—(hear,
b ear)—especially on the subject of that bill, of the intro- '
eduction of which notice is given this evening. In the House of Commons, especially when you have sat here a
good many years, there is a genial feeling, at both sides, of
reciprocal respect and regard. Gentlemen on this side are
therefore averse from a repetition of the sufferings of hon.
gentlemen opposite. Why this unnecessary torture
Why is the alarming prospect—sueh, for example, as that
which as,aliated the member for the capital of Scotland—
(laught er)—again. to be held out, to the annoyance of hon.
mem'oers and to the waste of public time? I wish, after
haviing performed an act of courtesy to these gentlemen,
both of whom are • entitled to respect, in allowing
them to bring in their bills, some private arrangement
could be entered into by which we should hear nothing
more of the subject. (Laughter.) We ought to act in the
spirit of the age, and, as the spiri of the age is to offer
testirsonials to gentlemen who perTorm public services, I
shrug be most happy in such an event—and in this I am
azure to speak the feeling of my friends—to join with the
majority !opposite in offering to those gentlemen some
mark of our respect and gratitude. The right bon. gentle-
man resumed his seat, amid considerable laughter and
cheering.
'.Kr. D. GRIFFITH withdrew his amendment, announc-
ing his intention to renew it in committee.
Leave was then given to introduce the bill.
PROBATE DUTY ON REAL PROPERTY.
Mr. IV. WILLIAMS rose to move, " That in the opi-
nion of thie house real Property should be made to pay the
setae pro'oate duty as that new payable on personal pro-
perty." The present state of the law as regarded the pro-
hate emty had been in existence since 1796, and the effect
cf ite was to impose a probate duty of 21 per cent. upon
12,0 the personal property of a poor hard working man,
while real property was comparatively exempt from the
*tax, that class of property being only liable to pay per
cent. prdbate duty when it reached £BO,OOO, and so on to
£1,000,000. The hon. gentleman then referred to the in-
troduction of measures on this subject by Mr. Pitt, and to
the result which placed the law in its present state from
the year 1706. That measure was passed in an unreformed
Souse of Commons, when 182 peers and boroughmongers
were enabled to send their adherents into that house. The
hon. member, after referring to the measures introduced in
1854 to impose probate duty on the property of corporations,l.
maid that the object of his present proposal was toenafaciset
the probate duty on real and perosofnssaloproperty—that
the owner of land of the value 0. 00should pay the
wane probate duty as the poor man paeiddsu on his £2O. Pro-
perty conferred by settlement, by deeds of settlement, or
gift, the amount of which he was informede was astounding,
Porter, yet it did not pay one farthing probate duty. Mr. in
his book on the progress of the nation, ate
three-tenths of the property left by gtd that less than
families never paid any
duty, Now, he would ask, was that just orproper?
revision
The
greatest men of their time were-in favour of a
the law as, it now stood. Mr. Pitt was opposed to it,
sad the right honourable gentleman who now filled the
office of Chancellor of the Exchequer described it as
objectionable • and absurd, and that it should be altered.
In passing the Succession Duty Bill, the right honour-
able gentleman said it would promote the stability of the
'oeuntry, and give security to their constituents. The right
hoe• gentleman the member fer Buckinghamshire also
added that he Saw no difficulty in dealing with the ques-
tion, and that the disturbances in other countries, and the
filling of thrones, were owing to the existence of a class
exempt from taxation., Much had been said of the enor-
mous taxation placed aaeounties, but he believed the towns
paid equally as neuchef the local taxes as they did. It was
also said that in the act ca eytmeing land a very heavy
tax was paid, but he
.denied
.it, and assorted that it was
managed like any other property. ; In 1832 an ecclesiasti-
cal commission reeommonded that this Mate of things
should be altered, and that a transfer of landed property
should pay duty. Some years after a bill was brought in
by the then Lord Chancellor to carry those recommenda-
tions into effect, but having passed the House of Lords and
come down to that house, nothing came of it. He thought
that as that was a representative legislature, and a reformed
Parliament, such an anomaly in the law ought not to be
tolerated. He appealed to the right hon. gentleman and
me high sense of honour, and well known sense of justice,
to alter this state of things. 11:e hoped he would take the
subject into his serious consideration, for of all men he was
the only one that could carry the abolition of this disgrace.
tug law.
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion. He wished to
know what distinction there could be between an estate of
£lO,OOO s-year and money in' the funds, and why should
one be made subject to probate duty, and
,the other exempt.
The CHANCZI,Wit of the BXCHL QUER regretted