The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-20 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against the Parochia]
Assessments Bill, and against the desecration of the Sab-
bath by railway traffic.
RECIPROCITY IN NAVIGATION WITH FO-
REIGN COUNTRIES.

Mr. LIDDELL gave notice that, after Easter, he would
call attention to those portions of the report of the com-
mittee on the Merchant Shipping Act which related to
reciprocity in respect to navigation with foreign countries.
COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.
Sir J. TRELA. SVNY, in moving the second reading of
this bill, said he did not require the house to pass it in its
present form, but merelyby the second reading to affirm its
principle, which was to afford ratepayers greater control in
the management of rates for counties. The bill contained
123 clauses, of which about thirty were important
to his purpose. The first clause was essential
to the object be proposed to accomplish, and it provided
that a board should be constituted for the purpose of dealing
with county expenditure, which was to be elected by the
Board of Guardians. One magistrate and one guardian
were to be members of this board, and they should each be
rated at the value of £lOO a year in the county where they
resided. He proposed also to give guardians the
power of dealing with the expense of the constabulary, re-
pairing prisons, and other matters of a financial character.
However, it was his intention that magistrates should re-
tain as much power in reference to such subjects as would
induce them to take an interest in county business, which
they might not be inclined to do, if they did not possess
certain authority. With regard to gaols, which came in
the same category as constabulary, he proposed that what
related to them should be placed in the hands of the
financial board for the establishment of which the
bill provided. As regarded temporary repairs he would
give the board the power of making them where they were
of a temporary character. With respect to pauper lunatics
the bill provided that magistrates still retain the same
functions as at present, but committees should be formed to
secure an economical course in reference to the expenditure.
These were the principal points of the bill, and he did not
propose to go into details. In considering the objections
to the bill, he said he was aware that it had been asserted
by the opponents of the measure that the present system
worked very well ; but what he complained of was tkat the
magistrates were a fluctuating body, and there was no se-
curity for their having the same magistrates for four
consecutive quarter sessions. The hon. baronet then referred
to the large increase in county expenditure to show
the necessity that existed for its being placed under more
responsible and efficient control.
Sir M. RIDLEY moved, as!an amendment, that the bili
be read a second time that day six months. He said that
the bill brought forward in 1850 was limited to the present,
and the committee who reported on the bill considered it
would have the effect of excluding a numerous body of gen-
tlemen in the country from attending county business.
He did net oppose the election principle, but it

was a very serious matter to attempt to infuse,
in any considerable degree, a new element into
an ancient institution, which practically had not been
found an inoperative or exhausted statute. He believed

the present bill, se far from simplifying the checking of
accounts, would have an effect directly contrary, and create
confusion, from the conflicting interests that would be
brought into contact by its provisions. If the measure
were passed into law, in his opinion, it would affect most
injuriously the proper discharge of county business, and
utterly fail in remedying the evils which some members
considered to exist.

Mr. W. E. FORSTER said that he did not pledge him-
self to the details of the bill, but he felt bound to support
its principle. He thought the time had arrived when they
should do away with the anomaly of money being disposed
of without any contest by the taxpayers, which does not
exist in regard to other disbursements of money, whether
for imperial or local parposes. He might be asked
why this question was agitated at present, and his reply
was that a number of sources for county expenditure had
arisen which had not existed some years ago, as might be
shown by the appointment of constabulary and other
charges with which hon. members were acquainted.
(Hear, hear.) He objected to one detail of the bill, that
which provided for the election of one magistrate on the
board which the hon. baronet proposed to constitute.
It was very desirable they should have a judicial element
on that board, but he thought magistrates would object to
the principle of election, and he thought the better plan
would be to allow them to make the selection from their
own body themselves. He concluded by expressing a hope
that the hone. would awes to the second reading, and any
alterations that were considered aestrable couia wane In
committee.

➢ir. PACKE opposed the bill on similar grounds to
those of the hon. baronet who had moved the amendment,
and that the measure was too crude to be brought forward
in its present state.

Sir J. SIIELLEY supported the bill and he thought the
objections raised to the bill would be more appropriately
considered in committee. Great authorities, including the
late Sir Robert Peel, had approved of the principle on
which the bill was based, and he thought the time had
strived for settling the subject to which it related.
Mr. PHILIPS said that he thought the hon. baronet
(Sir J. Trelawny) should have brought forward some in-
stance to show that the present system was defective, but
he was unable to do so. He defended the mode of dealing
with county expenditure, and entered into details to show
that such expenditure was legitimately increased, in conse-
quence of disbursements that were imperatively required.
He did not see the propriety of affirming the principle of
the bill which the hon. baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) asked them
to do when they disapproved of the details, what he consi-
dered a very clumsy mode of legislating. He felt bound,
therefore, to opposo the motion for the second reading of
this bill.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said that when it was asserted that
the principle of the constitution that taxation and repre-
sentation were coincident, it should be remembered that
there were many local objects to which that principle was
not applied. In fact the church rate, which was ♦oted by
the vestries, was one of the few local taxes in which the
popular _element of the coincidence of taxation and
representation was introduced to any considerable
extent. The theory. of the constitution was to
leave the management of local affairs to local
authorities. He admitted, however, that it was
desirable when practicable to introduce that element as soon
as possible, and he would vote for the second reading, re-
serving to himself ample powers of objection to the details
in committee. He considered that these details at a first
glance appeared to require considerable amendment, for
some of them related to matters which had been previously
settled. It had been said that Government should take up
this subject, but the fact was that bills were frequently
pressed on their adoption, which, unless they were pf per-
manent importance, they were unable to introduce to the
house in time to get them passed. It was therefore neces •
sary that the Government should be cautious before taking
up any measure that proposed to effect an alteration in our
existing administration of business, local or otherwise.
He believed that the magistrates discharged their duties
in reference to local expenditure in a very creditable
manner, but at the same time he believed that in some
places there' was some dissatisfaction expressed at the
powers of county magistrates. However, there was not
that pressing demand for the measure that would induce
him to take the bill out of the hands of the hon. baronet,
who must wend his way through the intricacies of a com-
mittee—(laughter)—whey he would find serious objections
to some of the most important details. (Hear, hear.)

Colonel W. PATTEN said he had come to the house
with the intention of supporting this bill, but when he
heard from the right hon. bart. (Sir G. C. Lewis) who said
he would vote for the second reading, but made a speech
against the measure, that the Government would not take
it up, he thought there was no chance of its success. There
was a feeling in some places against the existing system of
the administration of county finance, and he was anxious to
give effect to that feeling. At the same time the bill was
very imperfect, and its radical defect was that it would in-
troduce into the administration of county expenditure con-
flicting jurisdiction, which could not be expected to work
satifactorily.
Mr. BARROW, whose name was on the bill, defended
the principle, which he considered was just and expedient.
Ha contended that much discontent prevailed in many
counties in reference to their local expenditure, and that
ohnagt duringstand tingh in support of which,
e last 10 years hthearte
ferred discontentth thwe
fact ac t of long
num-
bers of petitions were presented from month to month, and
a
week to week, during the sitting of Parliament, all pray-
ing for some bill of a character similar to
though no such measure was then before the house. He
contended that they should apply to this subject the same
principle as was applied to other descriptions of tatation,
of separating the financial and administrative departments.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that whatever else would result
from this discussion, it would show the tenant farmers who
were their friends, and this was a tenant farmer's
question. He strongly caideraned the conduct
pursued by the Government in reference to a
measure of this description, and censured the
speech of the Home Secretary. That right hon. baronet
had not stabbed his friend's bill, but he lowered it into
some dark corner, and there smothered it. (Laughter.) He
adverted to Cornwall to show the dissatisfaction entertained
towards the present system. In this county the whole of
the magistrates had lost the whole confidence of the consti-
tuency. Attention and interest were concentrated on the
1 ;subject of the estsblisbautnt of Ansacial boards, wood, if

that subject were not satisfactorily arranged before next
election, the return of members for that county would depend
very much on the opinions entertained by candidates on this
subject. He contended that Government should take up
the subject, considering that they had nothing to do—
(laughter) ; and he called on the house to put a pressure
on them to compel them to introduce a measure on this
question.
Mr. DEEDES opposed the bill, and condemned the
course pursued in regard to it, which he considered was
leading to nothing more than a waste of the public time.
He condemned also the hon. baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) for
introducing a measure that was so evidently undigested,
and would have to be licked into shape in committee. He
defended the manner in which county magistrates dis-
charged their duty in regard to finance ; and he appealed to
the hon. baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) to withdraw the bill
under the circumstances, and by that means save a waste
of public time.
Sir J. PAKINGTON also complained of the careless-
ness of the three hon. members, whose names were on the
bill, in taking up the bill of 1853 without having taken the
trouble of expunging the clauses which related to matters
already disposed of. He deprecated the course taken by.
the Ministry in reference to this bill, as well as other mea-
sures introduced this session, and. said that the right hon.
baronet (Sir G. C. Lewis) in respect to this bill appeared
fo be unable to approve and afraid to condemn. He ac-
counted for the dissatisfaction alluded to in Cornwall
by stating that the magistrates there had found it
necessary to establish rural police and to repair their gaols
simultaneously, by which the rates had to be increased.
Any dissatisfaction of a similar character in Worcestershire
was traceable to the county magistracy having been com-
pelled by Government and by local requirements to in-

I crease the expenditure, which ;endered them unpopular. He
approved as much as any other hen. member of the princi-
ple of representation in taxation, but he thought it would
be paying too dear for that principle to deprive the country
of the services of a number of gentlemen who
had hitherto so efficiently managed the business
of counties. He warned the house against the danger of
introducing a revolution into the administration of county
business merely for the sake of a theory, and he considered
that this question, if entertained at all by the house, should
be brought forward by the Government.
Mr. WYLD supported the bill.
Mr. HENLEY expressed his surprise at the statement
by the Home Secretary, for, considering the importance of
the subject, every one must perceive that it could not bo
handled with any chance of success by a private member.
He denied that the bill would introduce the principle
of representation, for under its provisions it was
most probable there would be a disagreement be-
tween the conflicting jurisdictions that would be
called on to act together, and then the matter would have
to be referred to the Home Secretary. Such being the
case, he concluded the effect of the bill was to introduce
into the administration of county expenditure a centralis-
ing system. He thought the bill should not have been
introduced in a state that would render it necessary to re-
model it altogether, and he ridiculed the arguments of
the supporters, who said, in fact, " I approve of
the principle of the bill, but I know it
cannot be carried out." (Laughter.) He would support
the principle of a bill introduced by Government if it were
free from the defects of the present measure, and feeling
that the effect of the present bill would be to throw the
business of counties into the hands of a central government,
he felt bound to oppose the motion for the second reading.
Sir H. VERNEY supported the bill.

- -
After a few words from Major PARKER and Mr. &LATER
BooTH against the bill,
Sir J. TRELAWNY replied.

The house then divided, and the numbers were—.
For the third reading
Against
Majority —3B
The bill was accordingly lost.
PUBLIC CHARITIES BILL.

Mr. HARDCASTLE, in moving the second reading of
this bill, said that the object was to provide for the appoint-
ment of trustees to incorporated charities, and to make such
alterations in the existing law as would facilitate the ma-
nagement of these charities, so as to carry out more effec-
tually the benefits which they were proposed to confer.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it certainly was
competent for any gentleman to introduce a bill for the ad-
ministration of charities, but great care should be taken in
passing such measures that the house did not•aggravate
evils which they wished to remedy. He gave credit to the
hon. member for bringing forward this bill, but it proposed
to deal with questions that required the greatest care in
their treatment. Some of the clauses of this bill proposed
to do what was quite unnecessary, having been already
provided for by the existing law. He contended that this
measure was uncalled for, and that if the law required any
interference, that proposed by the bill was not suitable.

• - - -
Mr.HARDCASTLE said he would, under the circum-
stances, withdraw the bill.
The order for the second reading was then discharged.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL WORKS BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
house adjourned at 6 o'clock.

WARWICK RACES.—(This Day.)

BI ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.
WELTER HANDICAP.

The Greek
Miss Eleanor
Tyrant 3
TWO-YEAR-OLD STAKES.

Estrelda
Jung Prs.o
Ethel
Twelve ran.
WARWICK HANDICAP.

Cosmopolite 1
Emblem 2
Aneurin
Eight ran. Wcn by a length and a half.
DEBDALE STAKES.

B al zarine ..
Cores
Maid of Tyne g

Dive ran.
£4O HANDICAP PLATE.

Count Horne
Yellow Girl
Sloth
WALTON HANDICAP.

Gwellyan
Queen Bee
Prince of Orange

Six ran.

ACCEPTANCES FOR THE ANNUAL STEEPLE

CHASE.
Four miles. (Run to-morrow.)

The Huntsman, Jerusalem, Brunette, Cosmcpolite,
Anatis, Thomastown, Tumbler, Romeo, Medora, Penarth,
Freshman, Tom Sayers, Sir Charles, Dunboyne, Morgan
Rattler, The Sweep, and Ghika.

BETTING ON THE COURSE.
CHESTER CUP.
100 to 3 agat Sweet Hawthorn (taken)

FROM THE GAZETTE 9F LAST NIGRT.

MEDICAL DEPARTMENT.
Assistant-Surgeon John Meane, from 46th Foot to be
Stag -Surgeon, vice Surgeon-Major Dolmage, placed upon
half-pay.
Assistant-Surgeon John Alexander M'Munn, :M.D.,
from Royal Artillery, to be Staff-Surgeon, vice Chartres,
appointed to 100th Foot.
Assistant-Surgeon Edward Gregg Noott, from Ceylon
Rifle Regiment, to be Staff Assistant-Surgeon, vice White,
who exchanges.
Assistant-Surgeon Joshua Henryer, from 97th
Foot, to be Staff Assistant-Surgeon, vice Fagan, appointed
to 46th Foot. ,
Assistant-Surgeon Duncan Campbell Taylor, MD., from
65th Foot, to be Staff Assistant-Surgeon, vice Maunsell,
appointed to 97th Foot.
Assistant-Surgeon Robert Watson, from 91st Foot, to be
Staff Assistant-Surgeon, vice Edward Knapp W. Smith,
M.D., appointed to 66th Foot.
To be Staff Assistant-Surgeons from Oct. 1, 1860, the
Godwin, Gent.; John Walters, M.B. Franklin Gillen:de,
Gent.; George Farr White, Gen-t. ;
antedate not to carry back
M.D. ; Albert Augustus Gore, Gent.. , Thomas Mannsell,
Asodna,mlls,lt.D .i.i.DR. o; bet tßeEgidnwaladrd Heath,
pay—Charles Henry 'Young
M.D.; Robert
Af.„,. • James Thompson,
bert Wilson, M. 8.-- ; William Henry Jones, M.D. ;
Nathaniel Alcock, Gont. •, Donald MaegillivraY
Frederick Ro-
David-
Bronistaw James Fazdowski Lever, Gent. ;
t •'Robert De Burgh
Gent. ; Caleb Share Wills, hen- ;
Gent. ; Patrick Charles
Riordan, Gent.; Samuel Iwo, Gent. ; Thomas Young
Quinlan,Baxter MG.Bekt•• .
Baker, Gent ; John Henry lit. Bracken, Gent. ; Patrick
,sarauei Gamble White, M.D.; Henry'
Lamb, Gent.- ifenry Offley Harvey, Gent, ; Erskine Bur-
nett Grant, 1'4.11 ,
• Wm. Robert Wall, Gent, Thomas
Pattison
;
Gent. _
Pattison Flynn, Frank gout,

BANKRUPTS.
Robert Barrie, builder, York-street, Covent-garden, to
surrender, March 28, at two, and April 25, at one, at the
Court of Bankruptcy.
Alfred Mordaant, chemist, Southampton, March 28, at
twelve, and April 25, at two, at the Court of Bankruptcy.
William Riley, butcher, Ilkeston, April 4 and April 18,
at half. past eleven, at the Siiirehall, Nottingham.
Peter Scott, timber merchant, Liverpool, April 4 and 24,
at eleven, at the Liverpool District Court.
John Measor, upholsterer, Brighton, Aptil 8, at two, and
May 6, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy.
George. Groom, lithographic printer, Aldermanbury,
April 9, at twelve, and May 9, at eleven, at the Court of
Bankruptcy.
Thomas Gray, manufacturer of materials for making
paper, Garrett Mills, Wandsworth, March 28, at two, and
April 26, at half-past one, at the Court of Bankruptcy.
Alexander W. Laidlaw, wine merchant, ou;rrßury-
city, March 27 and May 1, at twelve, at the Court of
ruc.
Ban-
Waltereleven,at
carpenter,Parry,
errPourtßankruptcy,;..i Bristol. Liver-
Spencer Percival Pennell,
Couk of Brecon, April
19. and MAY 7, at
er South Shields, March
James Bolton Robertson, p_
draii wcastla-upon-Tyne Dia -
Liver-
pool, April 4 and 17, at elevecon,maratTliso—Liverpool District
26 and May 14, at twelve, at the e
triot Court.