The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-12 00:00:00

Mr. lIENLEY—The clergyman, not the manager.

Mr. LO WE—The manager or the clergyman, it made no
difference to his argument. The result was that he was
sometimes placed in a very difficult position. He was
asked, as the representative of a public department, for a
grant of public money, on the understanding that the
manager or the clergyman would not enforce the rules of
the society. It was desirable as a matter of economy
that this question should be considered by the National
Society. That society constantly came and asked for a
school for a parish. If he granted the school for the whole
parish he ran the risk that the manager would insist upon
the terms of his trust, and act upon the rules of the society,
and that he should thereby do an injustice to the Dissenters,
by excluding them from the school. He was then applied
to by the Dissenters for another school; they made out an
irresistible case, and the consequence was that two miser-
able schools were established where one good school would
have been much cheaper and much more efficient. Untold
mischief and heart-burning had been oreated by this state
of things, and he hoped his appeal on the subject would be
taken into consideration by the National Society. This was,
however, a delicate subject, and he only alluded to it under
a strong sense of duty. He quoted the opinion of a right
rev. prelate who had lately written upon this topic, that it
would be well to reserve the teaching of doctrinal points
until the children had arrived at a sufficiently advanced age
for confirmation. Three faults were found with the present
system ; one was, that the teaching was superficial ;
another was, that the schools were not sufficiently diffused
over the country, and the third was the complexity of the
system. It was thought possible that a system might be
suggested which would remedy all these evils. He would
briefly state the nature of the propositions which the
Government intended to make, and which would be ex•
plained more fully in a minute shortly to be laid on the
table. They proposed to substitute for the present system
of graduated payments, a system of payment in the nature
of a capitation grant. The question would be what ought
to be the conditions of that capitation grant ? They thought
they ought to be satisfied that some adequate results kad
been obtained before they made the payments. They there-
fore proposed to give a Capitation grant upon the attend-
ances of a child above a certain number, provided that the
school was in a proper state, and there was a certified mas-
ter in it. They also proposed to create a fourth kind of_
certificate, lower than those now used, availablefor
rhruraouldi
schools. They then proposed that the inspectors
examine the children in reading, writing, and arithmetic,

and that a certain proportion of each grant should be with-
drawn if the child failed in either of those subjects. He
hoped this plan might have some effect in correcting those
evils of teaching which had been complained of, and that
the attention of each master would in future be given to the
whole of his school. They did not intend to break in upon
the present system of pupil teachers. They would, if these
propositions were adopted, secure some test as to the manner
in which each of the masters had done his duty. Some of
the advantages of the proposed system would be, that the
whole Privy Council organisation would be left intact, and
a great deal of trouble would be saved in its working ; that
the masters would be left much more free of control than
they were at present, and the interference of the Govern-
ment would be minimised, and that the schoolmasters would
have a much stronger motive for exertion than they had at
present. In this way, too, they would carry out, as far as they
could, the idea of the commissioners' report, free from many
of the objections to the machinery which they had suggested.
They were of opinion that it would be expedient to continue
to select inspectors from the same class of society as at pre-
sent instead of substituting schoolmasters, for the inspection
was one of the evils inseparable from a central system ; but
if it should be carried to too great an extent, the house
would b ave the remedy in its own hands. Each denomina •
tion had now inspectors of its own, and the house might at
some future time put a check upon an increase in the num-
ber of inspectors, by enacting that one inspector should be
appointed to all the schools in a district, to whatever deno-
mination they might belong. They had endeavoured to
meet the case as well as they could, and they hoped to be
able to place this department in a state of efficiency as far
as the state of the case would allow. It was their constant
endeavour to render the department as comprehensive, ef-
fectual, and he would add as economical as possible. (Hear,
hear.)

Mr. ADDERLEY expressed his satisfaction at the an-
nouncement just made, and said that he was glad to see that
the deficiencies indicated by the Commission were likely to
be remedied by the Government.

Sir G. C. LEWIS pointed out the practical obstacle in
the way of the recommendations of the Commissioners,
There would be great difficulty in transferring the educa-
tional charges from the Consolidated Fund to the local
rates. Then under the county and borough rating which
they proposed, it would be impossible to carry out the deno-
minational system, while they would not obtain the advan-
tages of local supervision.
Mr. BAINES thought the people should be as much as
possible thrown on their own resources. He objected to
the capitation system, under which a series of grants would
be made founded upon the necessities of the poorest classes
of the people. He himself knew many schools perfeelly
able to support themselves, which at present received
public money, and he denounced such a state of things as
a scandal. As regarded religion, he believed that a
sound religious teaching was a main and essential
element. People who were afraid that the country
would not be educated without Government aid for-
got the good sense of the parents of the country
would not prompt them to give their children a good educa-
tion. He utterly denied the statement of the right hon. gen-
tleman that there were large tracts of country where there
was no education at all. The report of the Commissioners
showed an average of six years' education to every child in
the country, and that he thought a very satisfactory state
of things. England, in point of fact, stood above many of
those countries in Europe which stood first in reputation.
He denied that such a state of things a as to be ascribed to
grants of public money, for the great part of the work had
been done before Parliament granted a farthing. In the
Sunday-schools, to which not a penny had ever been given,
there were at present 2,415,554 children, and 320,000 volun-
tary teachers. He would ask the house to consider whether
the time had not arrived for abandoning an extravagant and
useless expenditure. It was gratifying to find that as educa-
tion had increased crime had decreased. The house ought,
however, to recollect that if the present system went on un-
checked, it would cost, if extended over the whole country,
£2,500,000 a year. He saw no more reason for training
schoolmasters at the public expense than for training law-
yers, doctors, or manufacturers. According to the opinion
of some of the best authorities on the subject, the tendency
of any system of Parliamentary grants was to extend itself
upwards,so that they might expect to see a system which had
been established for the poor gradually extend itself so as to
include the middle classes. It could easily be shown that the
effect of the Parliamentary grant had been, in some cases, to
diminish the amount of voluntary contributions. He re-
gretted to hear that the Government intended to adhere to
the system of pupil teachers. The house ought not to for-
get that a-minority of the Commission of Education were
of opinion, after all their inquiries, that the education of
the people might safely be left to themselves. (Hear.) His
conviction was, that popular education ought, like religion
and industry, to be left entirely free. (Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY referred to the rules of the National So-
ciety in explanation of the statement he had made at an
earlier part of the evening. He regretted to hear the state-
ment which the right hon. gentleman had made that night,
and was afraid it would lead to great incumbrance if not to
heartburnings. No member of that society could forget
that the right hon. gentleman had not only endeavoured to
force into Church schools trustees who were not cuurch-
men, but had argued c.O “Toottojustitio, that wherever there
they were bound to admit into the
I trust a Dissenter.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE declined to commit himself by the
expression of any opinion with respect to the plans of the
Government until the minutes of the Committee of the
Privy Council were before the house. He suggested that
all minutes which might involve the expenditure of money
should be laid before the Treasury for its sanction, before
it was acted upon by the education department.

Mr. WHALLEY proposed that the sum of £77,000 for
capitation grants be reduced by a sum of £12,000, being
the amount of the proposed increase for the present year
under that head.

Mr. HENNESSY said that if it were the. object of the
hon. member to put down the Catholic schools, he had
taken a course which would not carry out his object, because
the capitation grant was paid equally to all classes.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the vote was
agreed to.

A sum of £77,484 was next proposed for the Department
of Science and Art.
Mr. LOWE stated that this vote ineluded the sum of
£6,000 for the Royal Dublin Society, and he proposed that
the house should agree to this vote, but that the money
should be retained in the hands of the Government until
some arrangements were made with that society.
Lord W. GRAHAM moved the omission from the vote
of the sum of £15,000 for the new building proposed to be
erected at South Kensington. The plan of Captain Fowke
would involve two very expensive frontages and the addi-
tion of a very extensive range of buildings. He thought
that the Government was not justified in inducing the com-
mittee to the commencement of this very expensive and
ornamental frontage of these schools and residences.
Mr. LOWE explained that the Government had not
adopted the plans proposed by Capt. Fowke.

The amendment was withdrawn and the vote agreed to.
A sum of £185,000 leas next proposed, being the re-
mainder of the vote for public education in Ireland.
Mr. CARD WELL stated that the entire vote was
£285,000, and showed an increase of £14,000 over the
amount asked last year, the increase being made up prin-
cipally of the expense of normal schools, and the increased
payment to teachers. For this sum 5,623 schools were
supported, the number of scholars borne on the books
was over 800,000, and the average daily attendance was
262,000, There had been a slight falling off in the num-
ber of pupils. This was due, to a great extent, to the
extreme severity and inclemency of the season, during
the last winter, which had prevented tke attendance of many
of the pupils. The board, as new constituted, consisted of
six members of the Established Church, of four Presby-
terians, being 10 Protestants, and 10 Roman Catholics. He
hoped that all the difficulties had now,been surmounted, and
that the committee would grant the vote which he now
asked for. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BUTT said that as many members were anxious to
address the committee on this question, he should move
that the chairman report progress. (Cries of "go on.")
After alluding to the increase which had taken place in the
vote, he asserted that matters had been taken up by the
board which did not come under the head of education. His
wish was to have an opportunity of discussing the entire
question at a reasonable hour of the night.
Mr. CARDWELL would give the hon. gentleman all
the information in his power, but he hoped that the com-
mittee would pass this vote to-night.
Mr. LONGFIELD thought that the discussion should
be adjourned, as most of their time had that night been
occupied in discussing the vote for England. The present
system was one forced on the people of Ireland, which they
were compelled to adopt. It was equally distasteful to Pro •
testants as to Roman Catholics.

After home futher conversation, the house resumed, and
progress was reported.
SALMON AND TROUT FISHERIES BILL.

The house then went into committe on this bill.
The first 5 clauses were agreed to.

On clause 6,
Colonel FRENCH said it was now half-past one o'clock,
and they had passed only 5 clauses out of 136. He wished
to know how long they meant to go on.
Mr. CLIVE hoped the committee would consent to pass
some few more clauses.
Clauses 6to 14 inclusive were ordered, as amended, to
stand part of the bill.
On clause 12, prohibiting the catching of salmon fry by
rod and line, in rivers and streams,
Mr. GARNErr proposed from the word " destroy" to
insert the words " except by rod and line." If the clause
were allowed to remain as it was now framed, they would
have their rivers and streams swarming with those salmon
and other small fry.
Some discussion ensued, of rather an amusing nature, in
which Colonel Pennant and otherhon. members took part,
and in which Mr. Clive objected to the amendment.
divided,
...
..............
...
.........................
45
.... 80
Moradjeorreidtyt.o.
. . .
The
were—
For
Againstoomr mt
hi et I amendment............... net
stand.. .... ... —35
....... ; as
Climse 12 was then
were clauses 13 to 18 inclusive,

On clause 19,
Lord NE WORT moved an ameudment to 104 ye out

" Friday" and insert " Saturday," the object of the amend-
ment being to abridge the time of closing the rivers against
fishing.
The committee divided and the numbers were—
For the amendment ....
Against it

Majority -87
(The result of this division, which took place at a quarter
past two o'clock, in a numerously attended house, was re-
ceived withloud cries of " Hear, hear," indicating the deep
interest which the house feels in the preservation of salmon
fry and trout.)
The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the house
resumed.