The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-02 00:00:00

Tfit SU LONDONS SAPI3EDAY iNiENINGI, MARCH 2, 1861.

HOUSE o 1 COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SrEAXER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Bristol Channel Pilotage Bill was rea 1 a second
time, and some private bills were read a first t n e.
WESTMINSTER IMPROVEMEN C BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of t bill,
Sir W. GALLW EY said that he did not rise
to offer any obstruction to the progress of public
business, but he felt boxing to oppose the second
reading of this bill, not from any special interest he
felt in the subject, but on public grounds solely. Ito drew
attention to the course pursued by the Dean and Chapter of
Westminster Abbey, who made a condition with the Coin-
mission that before commencing operatitdis they should
purchase certain grounds in the Vicinity of the Abbey, and
then resell it to them. The result was that the latter
purchased the property in question and erected buildings
on the site which obstructed a communication, which it
was one of the math objects for which the commission was
appointed to carry out. He had asked fora select commit-
tee on this subject, but he Wag met by a statement
to the effect that the commission was nothing
more than a mere building company, and therefore
that Government was not justified in interfering.
But he contended that it was not a private company.
It had been originally established as a Royal Commission,
and a noble duke who was then in the Government inau-
gurated it. £50,000 was advanced by Government in the
first instance and £30,000 subsequently, of which
advances they had not received one sixpence in return.
It was required that there should have been a
strict and detailed account furnished for the half
year to show how the money had been expended,
and that the half• yearly balances should be clearly stated.
He understood that the unfortunate bondholders attributed
their utter ruin entirely to the neglect of the Commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests in regard to this hybrid com-
mission, and contended that Government should have re-
quired the sheets of the returns half yearly. The hon.
baronet concluded by moving as an amendment that the
bill should be read a second time that day six months.
Sir J. SHELLEY said that the hon. baronet had given
no reason whatever for opposition to the bill, but that his
arguments had an effect directly the contrary. He under-
stood this bill to be a sort of Encumbered Estates Bill, and
was introduced for the purpose of winding-up a disastrous
concern. There was no doubt that there had been great
mismanagement on the part of the commission, but that
formed a speeial ground for a measure like the present,
and he would vote for the second reading.
Mr. COWPER said that this was a subject in which
the Government could officially interfere.
After some further discussion the amendment was with-
drawn, and the bill was read a second time.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT then formally moved that the bill
be referred to a committee of private members to be selected
by the house, which was agreed to.
PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against the abolition of
church-rates ; against the Parochial Assessment Bill, and
Poor Law Removal Act; in favour of the Thames embank-
ment being carried out under the direction of Government
and the Metropolitan Board of Works, !cc.
NAPLES.

Lord R. MONTAGU moved an address for copy of de-
crees of the King of Naples of the Ist and 15th days of
March, and of the Ist day of May, 1860; together with all
the despatches of the English Minister at Naples enclosing
the same.—Ordered.
NATIVES OF INDIA.
In reply to Col. SIXES,
Lord PALMERSTON said his opinion was that the
claims of her Majesty's subjects in India had not, with re-
ference to eligibility for public employment, undergone any
alteration since the transfer of the Government of India
from the East India Company to her Majesty's Govern-
ment.

PRIZE MONEY FOR IRISH SOLDIERS IN
INDIA.
In reply to Sir E. GROGAN,
Sir C, WOOD said that at present the money could not
be paid to the soldiers in question, as thp Government did
not know exactly who they were, or where they were at
present.

THE UNIVERSITY OF DURHAM.
In reply to Mr. FENWICK,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was intended to introduce a
bill for the appointment of a commission, with powers
similar to that of the commission on the Oxford and Cam-
bridge Universities.
DELINQUENT BOROUGHS.
In reply to Earl JERmvx,
Sir G. C. LE WIS said that with regard to Gloucester
and Wakefield the house had made an oreer that no such
writ should be issued for these boroughs without a week's
notice being given. It was therefore competent for any
hon. member to give such notice, and in the meantime
the franchise of these boroughs would be suspended. With
respect to boroughs on which reports had been made, an
inquiry had been directed as to whether any prosecution
should be instituted.
FUNDS IN THE CHANCERY COURT.

Mr. DISRAELI asked a question relative to the Royal
Commission recently appointed to inquire into the custody
and management of the funds of the Court of Chancery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entered
into an explanation to the effect that it was considered the
'time had arrived for the appointment of the commission in
question.

THE FRANCHISE IN SCOTLAND.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE asked the Lord A dvocate whether
it was his intention to introduce any measure in the present
session on the subject of the registration of county voters
in Scotland.
The LORD-ADVOCATE said the subject was under
consideration.
CONGRESS ON ITALIAN AFFAIRS.

Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, whether her Majesty's Government were
of opinion, that now that the first Italian Parliament had
assembled for the transaction of business, and had unani-
mously voted to the King of Sardinia the title of King of
Italy,. there was any reason or necessity for the appointment
of any Congress, as had been suggested by the French
Government, to settle the internal affairs of Italy ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said there was no proposition before
the Government for any congress on the affairs of Italy,
and when it was made it would be the duty of her Majesty's
Government to consider it. (Laughter.)
REBEL OCCUPATION OF CHINA.
In reply to Mr. WHITE,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that her Majesty's Government
had not received any authentic information by the last mail
from China of the occupation alluded to. With regard to
the latter part of the hon. member's question, her Majesty's
Government had never interfered between the rebels and
the Government of China.
COLLIERY ACCIDENTS.
On the motion for adjournment till Monday,
Mr. DILLWYN drew the attention of the house to the
great number of violent deaths which occurred in the coal
mines, owing chiefly to explosions of fire-damp, and he con-
tended that more efficient supervision of these mines was
imperatively required, and asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department whether the candidates for the in-
spectorships of coal mines were subjected to a competitive
examination as to fitness for such office; and if so, whether
Mr. J. P. Baker, the recently appointed inspector of col-
lieries for the district of South Staffordshire, was subjected
to such examination, and pronounced qualified by the
examiners ?

Sir G. C. LEWIS said he never heard the name of Mr.
Baker until he received a memorial from the Mayor of Wol-
verhampton and several proprietors in the district, recom-
mending him as fully qualified, by ability and practical ex-
perience, for the office of Government Inspector of Mines.
The application was further supported by Lord Hatherton,
the lord lieutenant of the county of Stafford. Under these
circumstances he had appointed Mr. Baker, but he subse-
quently had that gentleman's capacity tested by an exa •
mination.-The report was unfavourable to Mr. Baker, on
account of his deficiency of scientific knowledge for his
situation ; but as Mr. Baker had had great practical expe-
rience in mines, and as he had been appointed without any
condition as to his passing an examination, he (Sir G. C.
Lewis) did not think it right to cancel the appointment. Ho '
had heard no complaints of Mr. Baker. ' On the contrary,
he seemed to have given groat satisfaction to the persons
in whose disttict he had inspected. If he had to make an-
other such appointment, he would-take care that it should
be preceded by a scientific examination, and, if there were
more candidates- than one, that it should be made on the
competitive principle.

REPAYMENT OF INCOME TAX.
Sir M. FARQURAR rose to ask the Chancellor of
the Exchequer whether he was aware that a document,
headed "The immediate payment required," calling for
payment of assessed property and income taxes due at
Christmas last, and suggesting the discharge in advance
of taxes due on the 20th March next, had been issued in
certain districts in London; and by whose authority such
a document had been circulated, The hon. gentleman

stated that he had received a circular from the collector of
the district in which he resided, demanding payment of
income tax under schedule A, due on the 20th of December
last, and also for the current quarter's, instead of waiting
for the usual half-yearly collection in April next. The col-

Lector gave notice that he would call in the ensuing week,

and observing that he could not make a second call ; and
the concluding part of the notice was in the form of a sug-
gestion. He was surprised at receiving: that notiee, espe-
cially as he had paid under schedule D in January, and he
at first feared that the revenue must be in a very delicate
position. -(Hear and laughter.) The same notice had
been left for the hon. member for Taunton, and generally
throughout the district, where it had excited very consider-
able astonishment. Now, as he could not suppose that
such a circular could have been issued to the ratepayers
except upon instructions from'a high authority, he begged
to bring the matter to the notice of the right hon. gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to put to him
the question of which he had gives notice. (Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
felt ranch obliged to his hon, friend for having mentioned
the matterin the house yesterday evening; for though, for
trheaesons whiCh he would- state; he wail unable to give him
full explanation ho asked for, Yet he could state 'to him

,
with precision for ho* much of the document on which he
had commented the Government, and he might say the
Legislature, were responsible. As a docunient they (the
I Government) knew nothing of it whatever. His hon. friend
was no doubt aware that under the system of law prevail-
ing in this country the direct taxes of the country were
leVied—with a certain number of exceptional cased—arid
assessed, not tinder the authority of officers of the Queen's
Goi'ernment, brit of local and independent authority. It
i was no doubt under the instructions of these local and inde-
, pendent authorities that the circular in question had been
Issited. Ifis hon. friend very properly asked an explanation
• of it, and was told by the collector that he had received it
froth the Secretary of the Tax .office in Red Lion-square.
To get proper information on the subject, therefore, it would
bo necessary to get the exact instructions given by the secre-
tary of that office, who was a local officer. With regard to
the substance of the document, his hon. friend was aware
that it was a proceeding taken under instructions from the
Revenue Department, in connection with the law of last
year. A statement was then made to the house of the amount
necessary to be raised by income tax in order to square the
accounts of the country, and methods were suggested by
which that might be done. Now, he quite agreed with the
hon. gentleman that it was by no means pleasant to pay taxes
three months before they were due. That he took to be in-
disputable. (Hear.) Only, what was the alternative? Not
that that quarter's tax should be collected a quarter earlier,
or a quarter later, but a yield of income tax at the rate of
70. in the pound was required, and the house had two
alternatives as regarded the manner in which that sum
might be raised. It might have been made payable half-
yearly, or in three quarterly payments ; and the later mode
was adopted instead of half• yearly payments. Therefore,
although it was not agreeable to have to pay taxes in ad-
vance, yet it was agreeable to pay them in January
rather than in the previous October. As regarded the
very courteous invitation of the collector referred to by
the hon. gentleman, for that he begged to disclaim all re-
sponsibility whatever. Any collection of taxes in advance
was contrary to the spirit of their financial arrangements,
and he was sorry such a suggestion should have been made ;
for though no doubt made in good faith, it was a step which
he altogether disapproved and deprecated. He could only
offer the hon. gentleman a conjecture in reference to it, and
that was, that it was a practice often pursued with reference
to local taxes in London. He had often seen it himself, and
it appeared to him to suggest the true explanation which
the hon. member desired.
EMBANKMENT OF THE THAMES.
Mr. BENTINCK rose to put a question to the Chief
Commissioner of Works on the subject of the Royal Com-
mission appointed to examine into plans for embanking the
.river Thames within the metropolis. The hon. gentleman
referred to the reports of the various committees and com-
missions on the subject, which, in his opinion, showed con-
clusively that the scheme was impracticable, and would
only involve the country in a vast and useless expenditure.
It was also agreed that the subject was one for the Chief
Commissioner to deal with, and that it was hopeless to ex-
pect :any practical result from a commission. Those, too,
were undertakings which ought to be defrayed out of the
proceeds of metropolitan taxation only. Under those cir-
cumstances he had to ask the right hon. gentleman to state
the intentions of Government with regard to this subject.
Mr. COWPER, in reply, said his hon. friend opposite
had found very considerable blame with the Board of
Works, but he thought that the observations which had
just been made by his hon. friend would be very accept-
able to some gentlemen in this house, who were very
anxious to resuscitate in the country party feeling and
party spirit. He could, however, assure his hon, friend
that there was no ground for the observations, or the objec-
tions he had made. If the hon. gentleman meant by his
proposition that the improvements should not be carried
on, unless by the wish of the whole country, he could
assure him that he did not think the country would agree
with him. With regard to the commission to which the
hon. gentleman had referred, there was no doubt it was
one of great public importance. But he must refer to the
committee of last year, which recommended the proposed
improvements. That committee also recommended that
the expenses of carrying the improvements out should be
paid out of the coal dues, and they also recommended that
a body should be appointed to carry them out, and that body
whom they named was the Board of Works. But although
that committee were naturally anxious about the embank-
ment of the Thames, they did not express any opinion of
their own as to what plan the improvements should be
made upon. They merely recommended the embankment,
and pointed out the sources from which the money was to
be got, and also the body that was to execute the improve-
ments. They did not lay down any plan of their own for
adoption. It appeared to him that the commission appointed
last year would not be an expensive commission, for every-
body who was appointed on it had given his services gra-
tuitously, and the only expense that would be incurred would
be those of the secretary and the stationery. Tt had been said
that the Crown ought not to exhibit any interest in the
matter ; but, inasmuch as the property in the foreshore was
the property of the Crown, he thought the Crown had a
right to see that the public had the benefit of a good and
and approved plan for the contemplated improvements, be-
fore it surrendered its rights. He did not think the labours
of the past commissioners had been lost, for although as yet
they had not attained their object, they had paved the
way for the improvements. The plans for those improve-
ments were now before them, and he thought it would not
be difficult to select a plan upon which to act. With
regard to th- state of the traffic in the public streets, the
feeling of every man who had to proceed from the West-
end to the Bank was, that he would find it much more
quick and much more convenient to him to walk than to
proceed in 'a carriage. (Hear.) The proposed embank-
ment of the Thames would improve the navigation be-
sides solving the difficulty of the low-level sewers, without
any disturbance of Fleet-street. (Hear.) He agreed with
the commissioners in thinking that the execution of the
work should be left to the Board of Works, and that the
payment of the expenses should be defrayed out of some
public property.

After a few words from Mr. AYRTON, the subject dropped.

THE CHRISTIANS IN SYRIA.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the last papers which he
had received relative to the affairs of Syria were a conven•
tion entered into by the five Powers with the Ottoman
Porte, and which had been laid on the table at the com-
mencement of the present session. With regard to the
negotiations that were going on, he could not consistently
with the interests of the public service give any informa-
tion at present respecting them, as discussions relating to
them were going on at Beyrout, Constantinople, and Paris.
He hoped, however, that befora Easter, or immediately
after, he should be able to lay on the table further papers
relative to the affairs of Syria, and those papers would con-
tain the reports of the consuls to Sir Henry Bulwer. He
would take that opportunity to answer the question put to
him last night by the hon. member for Horsham. With
regard to the part which had been taken by the French
Government the hon. member had asked him whether any
representstion•or note had been addressed by the Russian
Ambassador to the Porte, and whether that note had been
supported by the French Ambassador. He (Lord J. Rus•
sell) had no means then of answering the question; but
Lord Cowley had received from M. do Thouvenel informa-
tion that the French Ambassador had not interfered in any
way in the matter, either in seconding the proposal or in
giving any opinion. The only thing that the French Am-
bassador did was to express a hope that the reforms pro-
vided by the Sultan would be speedily introduced, and that
thus the necessity of the meeting of ambassadors which had
been proposed by Sir H. Bulwer might be so far obviated.

COLLIERY INSPECTORS.
Mr. NE WDEGATE, reverting to a question which had
been asked early in the evening, express?d his hope that no
colliery inspector, however accomplished or scientific, would
be appointed who had not a practical knowledge of the inte-
rior of mines, and of the symptoms of esplosion.
Sir J. SHELLEY said that with regard to the question
of the Thames embankment he thought the experience
they had already had was not in favour of the interference
of the Government. He hoped ani trusted the question of
the management of the metropolis would be altogether
taken out of the hands of that house.

Mr. J. LOCKE said he did not think the ratepayers of
the metropolis were3more interested in the Thames em-

bankment than the constituents of the hon. gentleman down
at Hertford. The hon. member for the Tower Hamlets
wished the Metropolitan Board of Works to do everything,
but he (Mr. Locke) had great cause of complaint against
that body. All they had done since they were first con-
stituted was to make a road from the corner of Ring-street

into Long-acre. A sum of no less than £94,000 had also
been given them in the outset for the improvement of the
borough, but what had they done ? They had pulled down
some most desirable property in High-street, in the Borough,
and left a large chasm, and not attempted to pull down any
property of a less expensive description behind it, so as to
complete a new street.

Mr. CONINGHA NI thought tho Government were quite
right in taking steps to ca►ry out this important experiment
of the embankment of the Thames, and he considered the
whole community were interested in the scheme.
The motion for the adjournment until Monday was then
agreed to.

TRANSPORTATION.
On the motion of Mr. CHILDERS, a select committee
was appointed to inquire into the present system of trans-
portation, its utility, economy, and effect upon colonisation,
and to report whether any improvements could be effected
therein.

THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.
Admiral DUNCOMBE then moved for a select com-
mittee to inquire into the constitution of the Board of Ad-
miralty and the various duties devolving thereon ; also as
to the general effect of such system on the navy. The hon.
and gallant officer observed that the discussion which took
place the night before, and the resolutions submitted by the
hon. member for Portsmouth bad in a great degree fore-
stalled that which would otherwise have taken place on this
motion, and he owned he should be well pleased if it should
be accompanied with less discussion but more fruits. In
bringing the subject forward he could not but admit, in the
first place, that great want of courtesy which had been
shown him by the right hon. baronet the member for Droit-
wich. Last year he submitted to the consideration of the
right hon. baronet a motion like this. His noble and gal-
, lailt friend opposite, the Secretary of the Admiralty, opposed

the motion on the ground that three or four committees
had been or were sitting with regard to naval matters,
that the Beard of Admiralty had been at that very
Moment Under consideration, and that no good result
could be expected to accrue from pressing such a motion
at that part of the session. He bowed to that opinion,
and with the leave of the house withdrew the motion. The
right hon. baronet the MeMber for Droitwich, however, on
that occasion not only opposed the motion, but even, at
the cost of his dinner, he feared, remained in the house to
vote against it. The right hon. gentleman said emphati-
)e sorry
Or
members who could not posSesa the requisite knowesq:.7
to see
7sou4chldailtie:toimonp.ohsaneddecid
error tally thatto a hsee should u
committeeld
experience to aid them in arriving at a satiefaetory eon-
chtsion. Now that was very mtich the position of the
right hon. baronet himself When he Canie td the Admiralty;
for whereas in the Duke of Northumberland's Board eight
out of nine members were naval officers, and in the present
one of the buke of Somerset six out of nine, in that of the
right hon. baronet only four omit df the nine were naval
officers. After the expressioh of that strong opinion; there-
fore, he could not suppose that on this late day of the ses-
sion the right hon. gentleman would have given notice of a
committee. That was the fact, however, and the right
hon. gentleman had given the ibtice almost in his (Admiral
Duncombe's) own Words, without troubling himself to as-
certain whether he meant to introduce the motion again.
The house would remember that he (Admiral Duncombe)
stated last session that it was his intention to introduce the
motion again this session, unless he should see good cause
for not doing so. In renewing the motion he ought to say
that he did so without any intention of imputing blame to
the present Board of Admiralty. He believed that that
board was composed of earnest and intelligent men, who
were sincerely desirous of doing the best they could with
the cumbrous machinery at their disposal, and which ho
believed was by no means equal to the increased require-
ments of the day. He wished that a committee should be
appointed, by which alterations and modifications might be
introduced into the present system, so as to enable it to
answer more perfectly the naval interests of the country.
Last session he stated that he believed it would be an im-
provement if the naval affairs of the country were put
under the management of a Minister of Marine, assisted
by a council, the constitution of which as ould be different
from that of the present board. The Minister of Marine
would be a Cabinet Minister, and therefore a political in-
dividual; but he would be assisted by competent and
highly experienced officers. Since he hazarded that
opinion in that house, several pamphlets had ap-
peared, in which much the same thing had been pro-
posed and advocated ; and the motion of his hon. and
gallant friend the member for Portsmouth tended in the
same direction. They were told of discontent on the part
of naval officers, amounting almost to disaffection, of crews
in a state of insubordination, and of the extreme difficulty
of maintaining discipline on board her Majesty's ships.
There could be no doubt that a wide-spread dissatisfaction
existed on board various ships. What were the causes of
that dissatisfaction it was not for him to say, and perhaps
no man living could tell ; but at least an effort should be
made to ascertain them, in order to satisfy the officers and
crews of one of the finest services in the world. The man-
ning of the navy was a subject which particularly called for
inquiry. The reserve was tantamount to a failure, and an
improved scheme should be found by which seamen might
enter the Queen's service more readily, and which would
make them more satisfied with it when they had entered.
(Hear.) With respect to the appointment of the committee,
which, he was told, was not going to be opened, his own
wish would be that no ex-First Lords of the Admiralty
.should be upon it. No one could doubt the great adminis-
trative talents of those gentlemen, but he thought it far bet-
ter that the committee should have the benefit of their evi-
dence, than that they should be members of it themselves.
With that suggestion, he would only further say that he
hoped the inquiry would be searching, fearless, and impar-
tial, and that such alterations and improvements might be
made by it, as the naval efficiency of our fleets demanded.
We might then have every confidence that, should the day
unhappily arrive when their strength should be measured
with that of an enemy, they would not be found wanting.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant gentleman concluded
by moving for the committee.
Admiral WALCOTT observed that it would be impos-
sible any longer to withhold consent to a proposition of
this nature ; for the discontent of the navy could now no
longer be concealed, and it had communicated itself to the
country. A committee of inquiry, composed of men, who
would give their earnest attention to a subject so extremely
valuable, would no doubt lead to many improvements. He
had great pleasure in seconding the motion.
Lord C. PAGET said that on the part of the noble duke,
the First Lord of the Admiralty, he had to state that, so
far from any opposition being offered to this motion, they
would be glad to give any assistance in their power, that
the very important subjects that would come under the
consideration of the committee should have every possible
elucidation. He thought he was bound, also, to state on the
part of the Board of Admiralty that from the time they took
office there had been no desire to shrink from any inquiry.
(Hear.) Now that we were in a state of peace, was the time
to look into our political departments, and to introduce into
them such changes as might appear to be called for by the
necessities of the country and the scientific improvements
of the day. He was not aware that there were any disasters
that should call forth the opprobrium that had been given
expression to against the Board of Admiralty. That there
were defects in the Admiralty he did not for a moment
deny. He thought it was very important that the accounts
of the Admiralty should be looked into, and he was bound to
say that the Board of Admiralty had treated him with the
greatest consideration upon an occasion when he called atten-
tion to what he considered an improper expenditure. He
asked the noble dukenow at the head of the Admiralty for a
commission to inquire into various matters connected with
the Admiralty, and the noble duke not only granted the
commission with the gracious consent of her Majesty, but
he issued instructions that all the defects of the Board of
Admiralty should be inquired into. That commission ap-
pointed various committees, who inquired into the various
departments of the Admiralty administration, inclu-
ding, amongst other matters, those which related to
the gunboats. He could not bat here remark that the tone
in which an hon. and gallant friend of his addressed the
house last night was not creditable to him in relation to his
views of the grounds upon which it was desirable that
changes should take place in the various departments of the
Admiralty. He (Lord C. Paget) showed, on a former
occasion, it was deemed desirable that an inquiry should
take place. The session then passed away; but the noble
duke now at the head of the Admiralty requested him to put
himself in communication with the gallant admiral opposite,
with a view of ascertaining from him when it would be con-
venient for him to bring forward his motion. At the same
time, he was surprised at the want of courtesy shown him
by the right hon. baronet opposite, in not giving him notice
that it was his intention to bring forward his motion for a
committee. An hon. gentleman wished him to propose that
he should be chairman of the committee ; but he felt it to
his duty to oppose it, in the same way that he himself, from
the interest which he felt in the matter, would not be a fit
person to be chairman of such a committee. The whole con-
duct of the Admiralty, it should be borne in mind, was at
stake, and he therefore thought that the hon. gentleman
should not be placed in the position of chairman of the com-
mittee. Now, as to the discipline of the navy, and as to
the discontent of the officers of that branch of the service,
he thought he heard the word "disapprobation." (Hear,
hear.) Why, God forbid that there should be any " dis-
content" in the minds of the officers of the British navy.
They might not, it was true, be satisfied with their pay.
It was certainly true that the pay was not sufficient;
neither did he think that either branch of the service was
sufficiently paid. (Hear, hear.) But he had done all in
his power to endeavour to improve the position of the
officers of the navy, and the navy estimates which he
meant to bring forward on Monday evening would show
that he was desirous to improve their condition. He
thought it was not his business to sing an Io Pcean in
praise of the present Board of Admiralty in this matter;
but he thought they might ask the public to suspend their
judgment at present in relation to the Board of Admiralty.
(Hear.) He was not now going to enter into a long state-
ment, but he was bound to say that the Board of Admiralty
had occupied much of their time in effecting great improve-
ments in various departments under its direction; and in
the last session there was an act of Parliament passed for
the better discipline of the navy. Now, that act, although
it passed through the house very quickly, had received a
great deal of consideration by the Admiralty; and added to
that, there were instructions to the navy which were about
to be issued, that also received a great deal of consideration
by the board. Then there was, in addition, another mat-
ter. The Government of Greenwich Hospital was ex-
tremely defective, and in connection with this institution he
could not but refer with regret to the death of his gallant
friend the late Sir C. Napier, with whom he had had many
discussions on this subject ; and in justice to the memory of
that gallant officer, he was bound to say that he was really
a true friend to the British sailor. (Hear.) Well, his
noble friend, the noble duke at the head of the Admiralty,
had brought in a bill to alter and improve the Government
of the Greenwich schools ; and here he might say that the
whole of the machinery of those schools, as it had long
existed, would beswept away, and the whole of the esta-
blishment would be henceforth on a different footing, so that
all children who had claims would be freely admitted into
the schools. (Hear.) He thought, then, that the Admi-

ralty deserved much credit. (Hear.) His opinion was,
with regard to the constitution of the committee, that the

names of some hon. members ought to be excluded. The
right hon. baronet the member for Carlisle, for instance,
ought, he thought, to be upon the committee, and in like

manner, his right hon. friend the member for Portsmouth.

(Hear, hear.) Ho should be sorry to see the names of such
men not on the committee.

Sir J. PAKINGTON confessed he was not prepared to
bear the charges which his noble friend had just now made
against him. He had never been guilty of a want of cour-
tesy towards the noble lord in not giving him notice that it
was his intention to move for the committee. He believed it

was not the uniform custom of hon. members to cross the
house and tell that it was their intention to bring forward a
motion. He must give a direct denial to the charge that he
was guilty of any discourtesy towards the noble lord ; and
he must say that he never before heard anything Of the

kind that the noble lord complaint;',l of; and he must tell
him again that there was not that he Ithem; of any custom
or any practice_by which any member of that house who
proposed to give a notice was bound to go across the house
and tell the patty that such was his intention. He must tell
his noble friend that ho knew of no such practice—(hear,
hear)—and so far from his having anything to apologise for
he must tell his noble friend, that it was he who owed an
apology to him (Sir J. Pakington) for discourtesy. (Hear,
hear.) His noble friend laughed, but he must tell him that
it was contrary to all custom for members to cross the house
and communicate their intentions and he must tell his noble
friend also that he had not departed from any custom, but on
the contrary, that he had observed the custom of the house.
"
..1.0 'not understand, then, upon what ground the noble
—4 and made such a statement, but he denied
lord came forwe,- .
of the noble lord. He had
altogether the imputation:
-^ of the motion which
made a public statement in the hole,
etives which
he intended to bring forward, and of the
led him to withdraw the pre-Hens motion of which 13.;,' had
given notice, and he did not think it necessary, therefore,
to give any further notice on the subject. Re should not
now address the house but for such observations as those
made by the Roble lord ; and having once publicly given
notice of the course he ilidafit to ptirstte, it was wholly un-
necessary for him, in his opinion, to Ally anything further
on the suNcet. He would certainly give his rote in blip -
port of the motion. He stated last night that there
wag a feeling out of doors that there ought to be an
inquiry into the ddreinietration and constitution of the
Board of Admiralty (tidal:, iieti,r) and that there should
be an inquiry into the defects of the syetemi and that the
board should be conducted upon a different fl'sietci—a
system which would involve a greater degree of respone
sibility. (Hear, hear.) He believed that the absence of
that responsibility was the principal cause of the necessity
for a change (hear, hear) and that constituted the
principal object of the inquiry. There was one other
reason for the inquiry, and that was an opinion that he
himself strongly entertained, of the position which the
First Lord of the Admiralty occupied on the present
occasion. How far honourable gentlemen opposite
might concur in his views he could not say, but his
opinion was, that the position which the First Lord of the
Admiralty occupied at the board was not the position
which the First Lord of the Admiralty ought to hold ;
and he here thought it necessary to explain why he thought
so. The hon. member for Colchester had stated that, in
his opinion, the First Lord of the Admiralty was
"supreme," and that such was the opinion of the right hon.
baronet the member for Carlisle. He was exceedingly
sorry that the right hen. baronet was not now in his
place; but when he heard those opinions attributed to him,
it brought to his recollection the evidence of the right hon.
baronet before a committee of that house on the subject
of the administration of the Admiralty. The right hon.
baronet here read the evidence of the right hon. baronet
the member for Carlisle (Sir James Graham), given before
a committee of the house, showing clearly, in the words of
the right hon. baronet, that the First Lord was not supreme,
that he merely gave his opinion when there was any
different expression of views, and that the other naval lords
had, in their opinions, an equal power. He merely presided
at the board, but was not supreme. As the Board of Admi-
ralty was at present constituted the position of the First
Lord was often one of embarrassment, and such as a Mini-
ster of the Crown ought not to be subjected to. He should
have preferred the appointment of a Royal commission for
the purpose of inquiry, to that of a select committee of the
house, but the Government having sanctioned the latter
course he should not offer any opposition. The constitution
of that committee was an important consideration, and he
was glad to hear the noble and gallant lord the Secretary
for the Admiralty, express an opinion that hon. members
who had occupied the post of Lords of the Admiralty should
not be excluded from acting on the committee. He hoped
the committee would proceed with its duties in a spirit of
prudence and caution and in a manner calculated to conduce
to the improvement of the public service. There was no
doubt that public opinion required considerable changes
should be made in the constitution of the Admiralty depart •
ment.

Lord C. PAGET said when he expressed an opinion that
the right hon. gentleman the member for Droitwich was
disqualified from occupying the chair of the committee in
consequence of the position he had occupied at the Admiralty
nothing possibly could be farther from his intention than in
any manner to reflect on the personal honour or reputation
of the right hon. gentleman.
Sir F. BARING explained the constitution and working
of the Board of Admiralty. The first lord was responsible
to Parliament for the working of the board, and there was
no doubt that, practically, he had his own way in the can•-
duct of the public business, and ruled the board of that
department. Great caution, in his opinion, ought to be
exercised before they pulled to pieces the Board of Admi-
ralty, which was put together after the model of the Board
of Ordnance, constituted by the authority and on the advice
of no other man than the Duke of Wellington, and a Finance
Committee n,minated for the purpose. The Board of Admi-
ralty was in no respect responsible for the harbours of
refuge. They merely carried out the recommendations of
a Royal Commission appointed on the suggestion of the
House of Commons. The Board of Admiralty, again, was
censured for the smallness of the work at Keyham harbour,
when the French Government was carrying out works of
magnitude at Cherbourg and other places along the French
coast, but in respect of this matter the Board of Admiralty
was blameless, and merely had that done which the House
of Commons ordered and voted. One argument against the
present constitution of the Board of Admiralty was the con-
stant political changes of the First Lord. He did not see
how they could prevent this unless they got rid of the re-
sponsibility to Parliament of the Minister at the Admi-
ralty. If they chose to have a permanent Minister, not
responsible to Parliament, they might change the consti-
tution of the Admiralty, but then they would change the
constitution of the country and abandon the powers of the
House of Commons. The substitution of a Secretary of
State for the First Lord of the Admiralty would afford no
more security than they had under the existing state of
things. He believed the permanent officers gave the very
highest satisfaction, because they brought their expe-
rience to assist the political officers, who were always liable
to be changed. The right hon. gentleman who had just
sat down said his great object was to get responsibility,
but they had it at that moment, because the First Lord was
practically responsible to Parliament. Have him respon-
sible, and do not go lower. They had him as a responsible
Minister, but if they throw it on subordinates they did
away with it altogether. It was now very fashionable to
talk of having a council to assist the board, which was to
have a power in cases of an increase of expense or a dimi-
nution to set aside the opinions of the First Lord. They
were to have those powers for five years, and for his own
part he really could not see why the House of Commons
could for a moment grant such an authority to any body of
persons.
Mr. HENLEY approved of the motion, and was glad to
hear that the Government also had consented to the ap-
pointment of the committee.
Mr. BENTINCK wished to make a remark as to the
composition of the committee. lie thought that as one of
the objects of the committee would be to inquire whether
those who had conducted the naval affairs of the country
were qualified for the performance of their duties, none of
the members or ex-members of the Board of Admiralty
should be on the committee.
Mr. CO NINGHAM contended that the responsible
Minister of the Navy ought to be in this house, instead of
being, as was the case at present, a member of the other
House of Parliament. It was also the fact that the War
Minister was a member of the Houseof Lords. To cap the
system it was only necessary that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should be a member of the other house. He
had merely risen to point out the fact that the heads of
important. departments were all in the other house, and
that it was inconvenient that they should be so.
Sir CHARLES WOOD admated that the whole tone
of the discussion was fair and candid. He did not
anticipate that there would be a change in the Board of
Admiralty, nor did he think that a case had been made out
for any such change. Complaints had been made as to the
changing character of the Board of Admiralty; but what
was the fact ? Why, that the principal officers of the board
had been in that office for several years, notwithstanding
the change in the Administration. He at the same time
must say that a change in the heads of the department
consequent upon a change of Government was desirable,
and tended to the benefit of the public and the public ser-
vice. He never knew a First Lord shrink from carrying
into effect an arrangement which he believed was calculated
to improve the efficiency of the public service, and under
those circumstances he did not think they would get a
greater responsibility from the First Lord under a different
system than they now had. A divided authority they
would find would only involve them in new difficulties. The
First Lord should have the assistance of a board of naval
officers, without which his office would be no value, and he
trusted that the committee to be appointed would give effect
to that principle in a manner that would be the most con

ducive to the interests of the public service.
Mr. DISRAELI said he was in favour of granting the
committee, not that he apprehended it would be important
as regarded any great changes it would be likely to effect.
Like other committees which had sat to consider subjects
on which the public attention had been strongly directed,
it would throw light on the working of the Board of Admi-
ralty as at present constituted, and show that great misap-

prehension existed with respect to the naval branch of the
public service. He owned he should be sorry if one of the
recommendations of the committee was that the head of the

board should in future be a naval officer. If they came to
that resolution, the next would in all probability be to take
that great department out of tho control of the House of

Commons. They had got it there now, and he recom-
mended the house to keep it there. That was a task which
they would not find it so easy as they might perhaps ima-
gine. (Hear, hear.) With that scheme for turning the
chief of the Admiralty into an appointment purely pro-
fessional, they would be paving the way for losing that
command over the naval affairs of the country which they

now enjoyed, and the aetual loss of which they would very
much deprecate. He agreed very much with what had
fallen from the hon. member for Brighton with respect to
the position which the two great services of the country
. _

occupied with regard to Parliament. It was certainly un-
fortun4te that both the army and the navy were net re-

presented by their chiefs in the popular branch of the Le-
gislature. With reference to what the gallant admiral had
said of his right hon. friend the member for Droitwich, he
to take upon himself the whole responsibility.
Admiral BUNCOMBE expressed his thanks to the
right hon. 'gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire.
Now the thing was done with, and he did not think it
necessary to say any more on the subject.
Mr. KINNAIRD regretted that the naval department
was not represented as it ought to be in this house, and
especially when it was considered that within the last six
years no less a sum than :C80,000,000 had been granted
for the navy. (Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to.

SALARIES, EMOLUMENTS, AND PENSIONS.
Mr. WHITE hoped the house would grant him indul-
gence while he moved an address for a return of all persons
in ElOand, Scotland, anti Ireland, receiving salaries, pen-
sions, pay,
.i7rofit, fees, emoluments, allowances, or grants
of public money, in the year 1860, the amounts of which
Tcceeded£lso, the forte and particulars to be in conformity
of Session 1849. Ob-
jectionswith ii-'Brliamentary paper,
mer ,:iccasion to the grant-
ing, wo very great. The
had been made on a fo:
those returns; but their importar:r
hon. member here entered into a stateme7lt olc the amounts
eir
.collection.
of those salaries, etc., and the vast cost of 1:J1
He assured the house that this was not a part,;rint•stion,
as might be inferred from there being a large nth:ober of
the firm of " Jones, Brown, and Robinson" in the list of
pensioners as of any other party in the State. (Laughter.,l
He found, on looking down the pension list, the names of
18 Russells, 12 Greyi, and 7 Grahams—(laughter)—anclhe
also found in it the names of 46 Browns and 16 Campbells.
(Laughter,) But as he understood the returns would not
be oppostd, he would not now say more on the subject, and
would sit down content.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
returns for which the hon. gentleman mlved would involve
a great deal of trouble in th 9 making out, and he would
therefore suggest to the hon. gentleman whether it would
not be more convenient if he were not to ask for a return of
the very low pensions, and would confine his motion to
those of £5OO a year and upwards.
Mr. WHITE thought if he were to do so that the object
he had in view would not be accomplished. He therefore
hoped the returns would be made out on the same principle
as when granted to the late Mr. Hume.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)

Mr. BUTT moved for a return, specifying the several
schools in connection with the National Board of Education
in Ireland in which Protestant and Koman Catholic chil-
dren were jointly receiving education at the Tariod to which
the returns were made up in the last report ot-
the Educa-
tion Commissioners, and the number of Protestant hi,nd Ro-
man Catholic children in each such school respectively
The hon. member also moved for and obtained leave to
bring in a bill on the subject.
The bill was accordingly brought in and read a first time.
TRAMWAYS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

This bill was read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted.

POST-OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this bill,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
understood further explanations relating to the bill were
required, and as it was then late he begged to postpone
the second reading to Tuesday next.
LAW OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
The house adjourned at 12 o'clock.

ib.............. 11.........4
awl./ ,ft.AMINIIMOIM
the appointtri!nt•of t? e undermentioned Officer of the Army
;sty the Emperor of the French, to be
r of the Military Division of the Second
:nights Commanders, of the Most Honourable
Class, or h '
Order' of the Bath , viz.:—M.. Charles Guillaume Mari-
Appolino AL 'toning of eh
Hhiosnlamrit-01;14e7lbaJef
Cousin-Montauban, General of Divi-
sion, Commas Ikiff'll-1-ClUef of the French Land Forces in
China.

13ANKRUPTS.
Joseph Allcock 4 jun., miller, Ilford, Essex.
Carter BoddinE ;ton, worsted dealer, St. Martin's-lane.
Alfred Nixon, tn erchant, Liverpool.
j„seph Buxton,. drysalter, Manchester.
Smith, tl raper, Hanley, Staffordshire.
John opestake, engineer, Derby.
William Tommy
Lloyd, miller, Llangunnidor, Brecon.
Robert Oxley, ma ltster, Chippenham, Wilts.
Stanley James We od, cement manufacturer, Millwall.
Edward bunt, hop merchant, Southwark, urrey.
JGaemoregseFßeouper, build er, Bincornbe, Dorsetshire.
tea men •hant, Liverpool.
Benjamin 60, cowke eper, Pavilion-place, Battersea.
John Lock, bu.ilder, BL ,rnsbury-grove, Islington.

BANKRUPTS.
Samuel PeacockSC T
grid e las Todd, sole and individual
partners of the Edit tburgh MaChine Sewing Company,
Thou
William Bruce, d, raper, Harait,e'on.
Walter Morison, t tattle salesman, Glasgow.