The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-09 00:00:00

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES.

The house then resolved itself into a Committee of Sup-
ply on the Navy Estimates.
Lord C. PAGET said he rose under some difficulty to
propose the consideration of the navy estimates, which were
unusually large. At all times it would be somewhat diffi-
cult for a gentleman who had been only a few days in office
in the department of the Admiralty at once to take up the
estimates of the session ; but, over and above that, it hap-
pened that the navy estimates on this occasion were of a
character more than ordinarily complicated. Many of the
items were, in fact, not only original estimates, but had ex-
traordinary estimates attached to them, and supplementary
estimates on the top of all. The committee would, therefore,
have to take into consideration three distinct classes of esti-
mates. _ Under these circumstances, he hoped he might
claim the indulgence of the committee. (Cheers from both
sides.) If he failed in giving a proper explanation of the
several items, the committe, he was sure, would feel that
it was not from any want of desire to give every possible
information in his power, but from the simple fact of his
not having yet had time to make himself thoroughly
acquainted with the subject. (Hear.) Before he proceeded
to plunge into the mass of figures he held in his hand, he
thought the committee would be interested, and that he
himself would only be doing his duty, if he endeavoured in
a few words to make them acquainted with the state of our
naval forces at the present time. He desired to show what
force we had for the defence of our coasts if any unfortunate
circumstance arose which, having regard to the honour of
the country, should involve us in a war. He wished to show
what we possessed in efficient ships, what we also pos-
sessed in reserve, and what we possessed in ships building,
and for which engines were being constructed ; in a word,
to show what the state of our naval property was at the
present moment. He would first of all allude to the ships
we had in commission. It would be for the committee to
decide what constituted a proper defence of our coasts. His
hon. and gallant friend the member for Southwark (Sir C.
Napier), he thought, was of opinion that we ought never,
under any circumstances, to be without a very strong force
actually in the Channel. (" Hear hear," from sir C.
Napier.) Others thought it was much more advantageous
that what we called our home squadron should not be con-
fined to those narrow waters, but should cruise in the Bay
of Biscay, which would afford it a larger field of operations.
That was a matter which the committee would decide for
themselves ; but in his humble opinion he thought they
might consider ships of war anywhere in the Mediterranean
or along the coasts of Portugal as to all intents and pur-
poses available for the defence of our shores in the event of
war. He would show what ships we had got in commission
at home and in the Mediterranean, for those two forces
combined formed the available force for the defence of our
coasts. We had in commission at home 12 sail of the line
(screw ships), and in the Mediterranean we had 14 sail of
the line (screw ships) ; making a total of 26 steamships of
the line in commission. Those ships on the home station
—especially those that had been very lately commiasioned—
were not folly manned; but whatever faults might be found
with the scheme of the right hon. gentleman the member
for Droitwitch in regard to the late proclamation respecting
. bounty, at least if the success of a measure was to be the
test of its merits, he (Lord C. Paget) was bound to say that
that measure had been attended with considerable success.

(Cheers.) There were ships which having been lately Put
in commission, were naturally not fully maimed ; but, in
regard to the great squadron he was about to enumerate, it
might be considered as composed of vessels fully armed and
fully manned, with the exception of a few, and in all respects
ready for action. He had said we had 12 screw sail of the
line at home, and 14 screw sail of the line in the Mediter.

ranean—making a total of 26 steamships of the line in com-
mision. With frigates we were not so well supplied. We
had 12 screw frigates and one paddle frigate on the home
station, and in the Mediterranean we had two screw frigates
and one paddle frigate. Those who were acquainted with naval
affairs knew there was a great number of smaller vessels, but
he thought he should consult the convenience of the com-
mittee if he divided our naval force into three classes—
namely, line-of-battle ships, frigates, and corvettes, which
included sloops. Of corvettes and sloops we had six screws
at home, and 26 paddles, making 32 ; and in the Mediter-
ranean we had 10 screws and nine paddles, making 19.
The total force at home and in the Mediterranean amounted
to 106 steamships in commission, besides a force of gun-
boats which were constantly varying in numbers at dif-
ferent stations. At other stations all over the world we
had about 200 ships, including sailing vessels,. employed in
protecting the commerce of war various colonial dependen-
cies. That constituted what he would call our first line of
defence, of which the more important part consisted of the
26 line-of-battle ships: What constituted our second line
of defence ? At this moment we had nine block ships which
were manned by coast guardsmen, and which, though not
ships of the line, were nevertheless doing good service to
the country by inducing sailors to join the fleet. They were
cruising about our coasts ; they were vessels 'of a light
draught of water, and could get into ports which many
other ships could not enter ; they were, in fact, perform-
ing valuable services as nurseries and recruiting ships of
the fleet. So much good were those coastguard ships doing
in that respect that he thought without them the manning
of the navy would have proceeded with much less effect.
He knew his hon. and gallant friend (Sir C. Napier) held
those coastguard ships in great contempt. He seemed to
think that they should be put behind the fire and burnt as
useless men-of-war. (" No," and a laugh.) He (Lord C.
Paget), however, should be very sorry if those ships were
not to be taken into consideration, for they were valuable
for the purposes of coast defence. Some of them were in
fair condition, and it was proposed by some alterations in
the muting to render them still more useful and efficient.
But in consideration of what had been often stated by the
gallant Admiral, whose opinion was held in great respect
at the Admiralty, it was proposed by the Board to place at
the principal ports one of the large efficient line-of-battle
ships as the head-quarters of the coastguard at
those ports, retaining the coastguard ships there
at the same time ; and arrangements were now being made
for placing three of those ships as the head-quarters of three
of the principal ports. It was proposed to retain the block-
ships, not only on account of their handiness in getting in
and out of port, but because their men were acquainted with
every one in the locality. They gave the crews a dinner of
roast beef on Sundays, which induced a good many of their
friends to come on board—(a laugh)—and there could be no
doubt that the crews of these ships induced a great many
men to join the fleet. In many ways these ships rendered
great services, and he trusted they would not be displaced
from their duties. They constituted of themselves a very
respectable reserve for the fleet. But there was another re-
serve of a more powerful character which would be available
in a few days in the event of an emergency. There were on
shore at the present moment, at the Coastguard stations,
3,400 first rate seamen belonging to the Coastguard.. They
had served in the Baltic and Black Sea, and were active,
first-rate sailors. Attached to them was a body of coast
volunteers, of whom 6,000 had been enrolled. There were
differences of opinion as to the value of these men. Some
declared that they would come forward to a man when
they were wanted, while others predicted that they would
not be forthcoming in case of an emergency He believed
he might say, on the authority of an excellent officer who
was once at the head of those men, and who was now at
the Board of Admiralty—Commodore Eden—that you
might count upon deriving from this body at any moment
—as fast as the telegraph and the railway could bring them
to the port to which they were ordered—the crews of twelve
line-of-battle ships. (Hear, hear.) This was a powerful
reserve of seamen. Besides these sailors there were
marines under instruction who would soon bo ready,
and a number of boys now in training at Portsmouth;
and other harbours. There were thus, first of all, the
force which he had described as the first line of defence,
then the nine blockships, which might be called the second
line of defence, and next the force of Coastguard, every
one of whom would, in Commodore Eden's opinion, bring
his friend under his arm to join the fleet. The question
then arose, " What ships have you got to put them into ?"
Here he must pay a compliment to therighthon. gentleman
(Sir J. Pakington), because he should be able to show that
the construction of ships during the present year was some-
thing stupendous—something marvellous. (Cheers.) He
would now show what ships we had got to put these men into
in case of emergency. Tile Government at this moment had
10 sail of the line ready for commission. They would have
three more in the autumn, and there was one under repair.
So that the total of the line of-battle ships and screw ships
of the line now afloat was 40. The Admiralty were build-
ing 10 more ships of the line ; there were six more in pro-
cess of conversion ; making a grand total of 56 sail of the
line, of which he hoped there would be at the end of the
financial year 50 sail of the line afloat. (Cheers.) He was
now about to depart a little from the rules of the Admiralty.
He had always observed that the Admiralty were willing
enough to look at the present, but that they were always
reluctant to say anything about the future. They spoke of
the future in a guarded manner, as if they were afraid they
should not be able to do what they said they would do. It
was impossible for a Board of Admiralty to say positively
what they would be able to do in the course of the current
year. There were always various contingencies of repair,
that could not be exactly calculated, but, as a general rule
he believed that if a little more system and method were in-
troduced they would be able to arrive at a very fair aver-
age of the number of men who would be wanted for
repairs, and that they would not be obliged to take, the
men who wore building ships ib repair others. (Hear, hear.)
This was one of the questions which the noble duke at the
head of the Admiralty, and the Board of Admiralty, would
take into their serious consideration. (Hear, hear.) He
believed there would be no necessity to take away the
hands from the building departments to the ships which
he hoped the Admiralty would be able to build, and he
trusted that, at the end of the financial year, there would
be 50 ships of the line afloat, 37 frigates, and 140 corvettes,
sloops, and gun vessels. (Hear, hear.) [An hon. member
made a remark which did not reach the gallery.] Yes ; there
would, he hoped, be 50 sail of the line afloat, independent of
the blockships. (Hear, hear.) He had now told them what
like force of men was, and what the force of ships, and these
constituted the present preparations for the defence, of the
country. But let no one suppose that this represented the
force of England. From a return moved for by the hon.
member for Penryn a few days ago it appeared that the num •
ber of steamers over 1,000 tons was 109, that the total num-
ber of registered steamers was 1,854 and that there were 231
steam vessels in the merchant navy, any of which might be
armed with Armstrong's guns, and which would prove a
valuable addition to the defences of the country. (Hear,
'hear.) There was another source from which the navy of
this country might be very largely increased at any moment
—viz., the ships from the merchant yards. He held in his
hand a return which could not but be interesting to the
house. There were 10,000 shipwrights in Great Britain in
addition to those employed in the Royal dockyardg. Now,
the old shipwright maxim was that 1,000 shipwrigdts would
build eight ships of 1,000 tons in 12 months ; consequently
10,000 men would build 80 corvettes of 1,000 tons each in
12 months, or between six and seven corvettes per month.
(Hear, hear.) If we were pressed for ships there could be
no doubt that, giving the shipwrights a little while, say
four months to start with, they would be able to build half
a dozen very large corvettes per month in the merchant
yards, and the steam machinery that could be produced
would be in proportion. His object was to show what the
public were, he thought, anxious to know whether this
country was really in a state that befitted its honour and
dignity. He believed that the navy was now in a state
befitting the honour of the country. (Hear, hear.) He
did not say that it would not be necessary to call for an ad-
ditional number of men in the event of war, as at the pre-
sent time the number of men was within 2,000 of the votes.
The fact was, that Government had not the power of
commissioning any more ships at present. But his firm
belief was that with regard to ships there were enough
ready, or nearly ready, to justify the Government in
asking for a considerable addition to the number of men.
Having, to the best of his ability—(cheers)—told the house
the present force of the fleet, he would now endeavour to
make these very large and complicated estimates intelligible
to the house. Turning to the supplementary navy esti-
mates, he would observe that the first four votes of the
original estimates had all been taken, and therefore it was
not necessary that he should advert to them at length now,
but, as many gentlemen then present were not in the last
Parliament, he thought it right to give some facts concern-
ing those items. In vote number one the original estimate
was taken for 47,000 seamen, and a supplementary estimate
was proposed for 8,000, making a total of 55,000 seamen,
including the coastguard. The first item in the vote was
the usual vote for wages, upon which it was not necessary
to dwell. The second item was to meet the extra pay allowed
to seamen gunners, £13,000. That was in accordance with
a recommendation of the commission for manning the navy.
(Hear.) Items three and four were to meet the increase of
pay allowed to medical officers and chaplains of the navy .
He, in common with every naval man, approved that act of
consideration and justice towards those valuable officers ;
but, he was bound to add, that he wished the right hon.
member for Droitwich had extended his consideration to
the paymasters, the masters, and the engineers of the navy.
(Hear.) He trusted that the present Board of Admiralty
would examine the position of those officers, and endeavour
to place them in a fairer position. The next item was for
good conduct pay and allowances to petty officers after pro-
motion. That was also in accordance with a recommenda-
tion of the commission upon manning the navy, for it was
found that petty officers was in a worse position in respect
to good conduct badges than they were when seamen.
(Hear.) The slam was £31,000 to provide the bounty to sea-
men volunteering into the Royal navy. The question of
bounty was one which involved very important considera-
tions. (Hear.) There could not be a doubt that in great
emergencies it would be perfectly justifiable for the Govern-
ment to give a bounty to seamen as an inducement to enter
the service. Whether that exigency had arisen it was
not for him, in his subordinate position, to decide, but he
did say that it was impossible to avoid considering the case
of the seamen who were already in the navy. (Har.) In
the army and the marines there was always a bounty upon
entrance, sometimes higher and sometimes lower ; but every
man had received a bounty according to the market price.
In the navy it had been different, and it became necessary
for the Government to consider the case of those seamen
who had not participated in the bounty. yan act passed
in 1832 it was clear that the seamen who were already in
the service had no legal claim to a bounty, but the Govern-
ment thought that a bounty was a novelty in the navy,
and, moreover, that it had been a very excessive bounty,,
for with £lO in money, a suit of clothes, and bedding—[Sir
J. Pakington—" For continuous service men only"]—the
whole constituted a very large reward to offer to men who,
although able seamen, were undoubtedly inferior in know-
ledge of the duties of a ship of war to those already on board.
(Hear.) The position of the latter as compared with that
of their new comrades could not be considered satisfactory.
(Hear.) It was right to say that there had not been a single
complaint from those men. (Hear.) They had behaved
in the noblest manner, and the Government had resolved to
deal generously with these men. (Hear.) He was not
prepared to give the details of the measure that was pro-
posed to be adopted, because a Privy Council had been held
that day, and an Order in Council would be issued to-mor-
row which would state them clearly to the world. He could
only say that a portion of the bounty in proportion to the
rating of the men, either as an able, ordinary, or second-
class ordinary seaman would be granted to them. (near')
That was a boon which, he believed, would be received
throughout the fleet with jay and gratitude. (Hear.) In
his opinion, the granting of a bounty was a question which
should be carefully considered before it was resorted to,
and he could not see what circumstance occurred during
the month of April, when tlie Proclamation was issued,
Lthweascustom of a con •
usukaschemore like the
which justified the late Government in introducing
aof saysnteusms,ianespeEcmial:eyrobrythwahan
stitutional country. It would, in his opinion, have been
better had Parliament been consulted before so important a
measure was decided upon. (Hear.) He would next read
to the house a return that would be equally instructive and
amusing—a return of the number of men impressed into the
'navy during the years 1811, 1812, and 1813, the last three