The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-12 00:00:00

last, he trusted that the right hon. baranear,
and that the received the assent of the
hear.)
severe in his opposition to this bill. et vroule diunolltarpeeril-
honour and dignity of the house that
t(tin-hey conehsi witheam the
about to be imposed upon
estlndtl
financial obligations which wer
teased on the llth of
hear.) A resolution was
.4T111:
e
h autnorisii:q the Treasury
the Exchequer by means of theee
,ordys' amendments. (Hear,
' March and reported on th
with the company, out the house
to make an agreement
he tier liable fora guarantee of
• rendering the Exc
qper cent. on a capital of
ence
was never informed that an actual agreemt was in exist-
, e for 50 years, being p
06,00 u
£BOO,OOO. - en annual charge of £45,000 upon the Tree-
if the capital should be increased to £1,000,000
there would be e
'evolve a total charge of £2,225,000. ' He
sury, which would
et the amendment.
°'• -ht it very desirable to have a
should
certainly
Hee.rtßAlY supper
thong_ -lie, but he believed the Go-
line of ag
e-
iof electric telegraph to Ins if,
vernment would have acted more N._ decided instea
to make the
beg to such terms, the Government hay.
line. He should support the amendment. I been taken
Mr. FITZROY said that the usual course haa •-• com-
upon this bill, and a resolution had been agreed to n su
mittee of the whole house, which certainly had not beb-
carried sub silentio.
Mr. LAB OUCHERE observed that it might be true that
there had been the usual opportunities afforded for a dis-
cussio'n of the bill, but the present was the first occasion
upon which the attention of the house had been called to
the subject. Be thought the suggestion of the right hon.
baronet the met ber for Carlisle was a good one, and there •
fore he should support the amendment.
Sir S. NORTHCI?TE said there appeared to be two
points under discussion. The first was as to the mode in
which the bill had passed tiirough that house ; but he un-
derstood that the usual course sad been pursued, and hon.
members had had all the oppor
tunities for discussing
which they had upon every other private bill. The otherit
point that had been raised was as to the expenditure
proposed, proposed, and the right hon. baronet
liable. The
Carlisle had stated that he regarded thetheoen men:
entered
into by the late Government as very j_
but he believed it
entered upon his duties at the Treasulry,
matter had been arranged before he (Si°rbSeciet Olrthcote) had
u enacts contract
preceding Governments, and espirl _
was based upon the example of similar'contrcts made y
to Corfu, in which case the
from Cagliari to Malta and thence
with the Mediterranean Extension Telegraph.Company7
preceding Government gave tee of 6 per cent. for 25
years, instead of 41 per cent. afor 50 years, as in the present
'nstance. The subject was one ofgreat importance,
the only mode of successfully floating the line was by an a
gug-
rantee, h. thought the Government was wise in giving it.
The contract had been called a one-sided bargain, but the
company had bound themselves to certain provisions which
would compel them to perform their part of the contract.
Another condition was that when the line was once laidthe
company were bound to work it, or the Government might
take possession of the line. There were other conditions in
the contract giving the Government certain advantages,
such as the right of priority in sending messages. That was
an important matter. Let that be contrasted with the stipu-
lations made with some of the lines in this country. The
Submarine Telegraph Company had entered into a stipula-
tion with France, by which the French Government got the
priority. What an immense importance it waste this country
to maintain communication with its East Indian possessions.
Let the house consider the case of the late Indian mutiny,
and a thousand other circumstances, in which rapid commu-
nication with India was absolutely necessary, and it would
agree that any arrangement, however extravagant it might
seem, that put this country in communication with our
East Indian possessions, without making the country de-
pendent on any foreign Government, was of the utmost
importance. (Hear, hear.) The contract was very care-
fully drawn, and the late Government had improved on
the terms entered into by their predecessors in regard to
the Mediterranean extension line. Provision was made
for a reserve fund, and for a reduction of the charges to
the public, and all possible care was taken to provide for
the good working of the line. He thought the clause em •
powering the appointment of official directors, having au-
thority to control the whole proceedings of the company,
and to take care that nothing was done to imperil the secu-
rity, a good clause, though the right hon. member for Car-
lisle had objected to it. With respect to the adjournment
of the consideration of the Lords' amendments he expressed
no opinion. That was a question for the Government and
the promoters of the bill. He thought the agreement made
by the late Government a good, proper, and economical
agreement, and there was nothing on which he was more
ready to encounter scrutiny. Therefore, he did not oppose
the motion for an adjournment of the discussion for a fort-
night.
Sir J. GRAHAM observed that there were not above 15
copies of the bill printed. With regard to the ex officio di-
rectors, the case was stronger than he had thought. (Cries
of "Order.") Did the house not desire to know the facts ?
Mr. ROEBUCK called the right hon. baronet to order.
He was always glad to hear the right hon. baronet, but he
did not think that the right hon. baronet had a right to
speak twice. (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER observed that the right hon. baronet
had only a right to explain.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was endeavouring to ex-
plain that these ex officio directors were not prohibited
from holding shares, and, indeed, there was a provision de-
claring that they might hold shares.
Mr.KINNAIRD observed that there was nothing pecu-
liar or irregular in the way in which the bill had passed
through its stages. The shareholders of the line were now in
this position, after a Government guarantee had been dis-
tinctly given, and after they had on its faith expended three-
fourths of the capital, that they were not able to complete
the line because they could not make a call or borrow money
until the present bill passed. Any delay would be mostpre-
judicial to them, and he must say that the present proceed-
ing savoured very much like repudiation. It should be borne
in mind that this undertaking was projected during a great
crisis in the affairs of this country, viz., during the Indian
mutiny, when rapid communicationbetween India and this
country was of vital importance.
Mr. CRAWFORD said that :ion. friend who had just
spoken had anticipated what he had to say. More than half
the capital of the company had been raised and expended
on the faith of the guarantee, and he wished to know whe-
ther it competent for the house now to consider the bill
otherwise than exclusively in reference to the Lords'
amendments.
Lord DUNCAN thought the question before the house
was whether they were to sanction a system which gave away
the public money by a private bill, of which only about 12
or 13 copies were printed. Until attention was drawn to the
measure he was not aware of its provisions, and now he
found that byane of the Lords' amendments it was proposed
to give a guarantee of 41 per cent. for 50 years on a sum of
£BOO,OOO, which might be raised to £1,000,000. It was a
great public question whether that house should bind the
country•for 50 years to pay the sum of £45,000 for the Red
Sea Telegraph. Without adverting to the merits of the
matter, he raised his voice against binding this country in
such a way to give a guarantee on an undertaking not even
now in existence. It would be far better to give the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer the entire power of making these
guarantees without referring them to the house at all.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
this was a question of very considerable nicety and delicacy
—(hear)—and he thought it his duty, holding the office he
did, to state to the house what considerations occurred to
him. He must say that he was a little disappointed when
the hon. baronet opposite (Sir S. Northcote) declined to
enter into the question of the motion of the right hon. mem-
ber for Carlisle, stating that that was an affair for the
Government and the parties to consider; for the right hon.
baronet was the official organ of the Government that
made this contract.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE explained that it was made some
months before he joined the Treasury.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
mean to state that the right hon. baronet made the contract,
but only that he was the official organ of the Government that
made the contract. He wished simply to state to the house
the view helook of the position of the Government in regard
to the contract, because the matter was one of the ex-
tremest delicacy, and public credit was that which not only
ought not to be broken, but ought not to be even sus-
pected of being broken. (Hear, hear.) What he found to be
the case, when the present Government assumed office, was
that the present bill was in the House of Lords, and noble-
men connected with the Government in that house, as a de-
bate upon it was about to take place, made application to
him to know whether it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to support the bill as it stood. In his opinion they
were pledged to the bill in the position in which it stood,
and it was too late for the Government to raise a question
on its merits on that account. The merits were not entered
into by the Government in the House of Lords, and it was
his intention, when the plan was brought to issue, to fulfil
the contract, which he found written in the agreement be-
tween the executive Government and the parties to the fol-
lowing effect :—That an Act of Parliament (according to
the last clause of the bill) should be applied for in the next
session, for the purpose of confirming and giving effect to
the agreement ; and that the clauses necessary for the pur-
pose should be submitted to, and approved by, the Lords
Commissioners of the Treasury, who were to sanction
and further the application by the company for such Alt
of Parliament. That was the agreement, and on coming
into office and finding these terms in existence laid down,
and entirely independent of the discretion of the present
Government, no choice was presented to them except to
give their support as far as possible to the bill. On that
agreement he felt bound to act, but with respect to the
rights of the house, that undoubtedly was a different mat-
ter, and it was not for him to determine, but for the house 1
to decide where its jurisdiction commenced, and what were
its duties and obligations, and he had no doubt that it
would consider the former and adhere to the latter. He
did not understand that the right hon. member for Carlisle
raised any issue as to the merits of the contract ; but he
merely recommended that as this was a new Parliament, and
as the arrangement under which the bill was brought be-
fore them in its present form, and which had prevented the
present Parliament from entering into a minute examina-
tion of the measure, had been made, not for the conveni-
ence of Parliament, but of the parties interested in the
bill, its further consideration should be postponed for a
term of 14 days, in order that the house might know what
they were going to vote. The right hon. baronet said,
" Arrangements of great importance have been made
between the Government and the company ; principles of
great moment to the public interests are involved in those
arrangements ; and as a committee is about to be appointed
to inquire into the general question, let us have an oppor-
tunity of ascertaining accurately what we are asked to do."
In that suggestion he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
did not see anything tending to impugn or to weaken the
force of the contract between the Government and the
parties, or to impair the nature of the obligation, whatever
it might be, which Parliament had contracted with regard
to these parties. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. mem-
ber for Lancaster and other hon. members would not persist
in their objections to the postponement. If they did so it
might be supposed out of doors that an issue was raised
upon a question of public faith, whereas there was merely
a demand for time, with a view to consideration. The con-
cession of such time might be attended with. some.
.temporary
and limited inconvenience to the parties, but if his right
hon.
tfrinoeut dtothpreocineeedrabbleuir
dffoorldCinrlLasleofu- suchpublic
importance, as that view
was entertained by so many hon.
gentlemen, he (the Chancellormattertho' ght the H_ouse
of the Exchequer) would feel
bound to support his proposi • tion. He would only add that
in the last Parliament
• on the 14th of March, a resolution
was reported by the then Chairman
from the Committee on the Red of Ways and Means
Company, the effect of which Sea and Indian Telegraph
sanction of the House of Commons so
to give the
proceedings were concerned, totts' so far as preliminary
agreement which had
been entered into between the Government and the Red
Sea and Indian Telegraph Company
first resolution of the house was very, and in such cases the
,
versally, regarded as a sufficient foundation if not uni •
parties in proceeding with their arrangements.tc. warrant the
Mr. DISRAELI thought it right to say that in dete in.
ing to give their support to this company the late Govern-
ment were influenced by motives of public policy. (Hear,
hear.) The whole question of these guarantees was at an
early period put under their consideration, and numerous
applications of -a similar character were preferred; but,
although the late Government came to the conclusion that

that they should enter into any uncon-
ditional felt it their duty to make two ilza 7.. guarantees, t advisable ,
ex-
ceptions to that principi e, the first being in the case of the
scheme for securing a tel agraphic commnication with India,
and the other for providh ig a similar communication with the
United States of America. The condition of India at the
period when this arrangement was made would be within
the recollection of every member of the house, and he
thought it would be admitted on all sides that it was not
only a serious injury but a disgrace to this country that, in
such an age of science and progless as the present, we should
not have possessed the means of telegraphic communication
with that important dependency. (Hear.) The late Govern-
ment did not of course enter into this guarantee until they
had exhausted every means of ascertaining whetherthere was
any prospect that the object would be attained without their
interference. After considerable delay and prolonged in
vestigation—after consulting the ablest men and endeavour-
ing by every means in their power to obtain authentic in-
formation—it was their deliberate opinion that the scheme
now under consideration was the only mode by which tele-
, graphic communication between this country and India
c,,"11d be accomplished, and they shrank from the responsi-
wj h they must necessarily have incurred had they
bility c,ithout attaining so clearable an abject.
met Parlia,— - ceding of the present House of Com-
With regard to tne
arrangement whim
heyshould enter-
f an
rul Were
it was
called upon to sanction providing for the expend;expenditure of
rata°inns soon e thijesaisuoubjsey ct,
o
public money for a considerable time to come. This might be
a natural, but it was not alegal or constitutional feeling; for,
according to the laws and regulations of Parliament, if they
resolved to continue the labours of their predecessors—the
Parliamentlately dissolved—with regard to this class of legis-
lation they must adopt at the same time the resolutions which
their predecessors had agreed to, and the conclusions at
which they had arrived. It was not open to this house to
say that they now, for the first time, became acquainted
with important engagements which the House of Commons
were called upon to fulfil. That was not a fair, trae or ac-
curate representation. They must consider this bill as if
it had gone through all its stages in the new House of
Commons, and he thought it had been shown indisputably
that every Parliamentary form to guard against any mis-
application of the public money had been strictly observed.
He bast not heard the observations of the right hon. mem
ber for Carlisle, but if his proposition was merely what it
had been represented to be by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, he was far from wishing to oppose it. He thought
it was of the utmost importance that the country and the
house should be perfectly satisfied with regard to these
transactions ; and as he hoped that no risk of injury or in-
convenience could accrue from the short delay proposed, it
might be advantageous that the bill should be referred to
the committee.
Mr. BOUVERIE was at a loss to understand what object
could be attained by the postponement of the bill with a
view to irs consideration by the select committee to be ap-
pointed to-night. Even if the contract should prove to
have been improvident so far as the public were concerned,
the matter had gone so far that the faith of the House of
Commons was pledged to the arrangement, and it would now
be too late to back out of it. He thought this case showed
that the forms of the house were defective, and that this
discussion might have been avoided if a full statement of
the circumstances connected with the contract had been
submitted to the late Parliament. The company had made
a call, spent their money, and executed a great part of their
project, and the case was one in which the public credit
required that there should now be no repudiation on the
part of Parliament. The bargain might or might not
have been an improvident one, but advantage could not
honourably be taken of a pure technicality to get rid of it.
The SPEAKER wished to say a few words on a point of
form. In the case of this bill and two other bills of a simi-
lar nature —viz., the Indian and Australian and the Atlantic
Telegraph Bills, and in which there were guarantees of
public money, the clauses containing the guarantees not
having hem printed in italics in the first copies of the bills,
by his direction the original measures had been withdrawn,
and fresh bills presented, with the clauses in question
printed in italics, and therefore specially inviting the atten-
tion of the house to them. The substantial merits of this
question did not in any way come within his province. If
there had been anything informal or irregular, anything
that contravened the rules and privileges of that house in
the amendments made by the Lords, it would have been
his duty to bring them under notice. But there was nothing
of that nature in those amendments. With respect to the
inquiry addressed to him by the hon. member for London
—namely, what was the exact question now before the
house ? the answer was " Whether the house would agree
to the amendments of the Lords." The question certainly
was not whether the house would revise or reconsider
parts of the Bill to which it had given its assent, and
which the other house had also accepted. (Hear, hear.)
Viscount DUNCAN hoped the Speaker would inform the
house how many copies of private bills were circulated
among hon. members.
Mr. WILSON had understood the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Disraeli) to say that there had been two exceptions in
the time of the late Government to the principle of a con-
tingent guarantee—viz., the Red Sea Telegraph and the
Atlantic Telegraph. This was the first time he had heard
that an absolute guarantee had been given to the Atlantic
Telegraph Company, which, he always understood, had re-
ceived only a contingent guarantee. He must, however,
bear his testimony to the accuracy of the right hon. gentle-
man's statement that the late Government had exhausted,
but in vain, every means in their power to find parties ready
to take up the project of a Red Sea Telegraph on the prin-
ciple of a contingent guarantee.
The SPEAKER said that copies of private bills were
printed by their promoters, and circulated in considerable
numbers among hon. members on both sides of the house.
Mr. DISRAELI explained that he had been in error in
saying that the guarantee to the Atlantic Telegraph Com-
pany was an absolute one.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the further consideration of the amendments.. 177
Against

Majority
The amendments were then considered, and the bill was
ordered to be read a third time.
THE PACKET SERVICE.
Mr. RICH gave notice that at the proper time he should
move the postponement of the vote for the conveyance of
the mails from Dover to Calais and Ostend.
THE QUEEN'S PRINTER.
Mr. BAINES asked the Home Secretary whether it was
the intention of her Majesty's Government, on the expira-
tion of the patent of the Queen's printer for England and
Wales, on the 21st of January, 1860, to propose the renewal
of that patent, so far as it related to the printing of Bibles
and Testaments, or any restriction on the free printing of
the Holy Scriptures.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the restraints on the printing of
the Holy Scriptures in the United Kingdom did not, as the
hon. gentleman seemed to think, rest merely on the patent
granted to the Queen's printer. They rested on the prero-
gative of the Crown, which had the power of restricting the
printing of the authorised versions of the Holy Scrip Fares
and the Book of Common Prayer. That prerogative would
subsist unless it were abandoned by the Crown or termi •
nated by an Act of Parliament. The subject of the policy
of renewing the monopoly was under the consideration of
her Majesty's Government, but it was a point involving a
number of difficult questions —(hear, hear)—and they had I
not come to any decision upon it. The house, however,
would permit him to state that, so far as the matter had
been represented to him, it could not be said there was any
practical grievance with respect to the printing either of
the Bible or the Prayer-book, as to inaccuracy or as to want
of cheapness. (Hear, hear.) He was assured that the
cheap prices at which the Bible and Prayer-book were
printed could not be exceeded, and that copies printed by
the Queen's printer and at the two English Universities
were circulated in the United States and in our colonies,
and competed there with Bibles and Prayer-books printed
without any restraint or monopoly. In regard, therefore, to
cheapness, he was not aware that a change of system would
produce any advantage ; and, as to accuracy of text, ho
found it generally admitted, but that some authentication
by a public authority was necessary. (Hear, hear.) He
would add that, although in Scotland there was no mono-
poly with respect to one printer, there was a restraint on all
printers, inasmuch as it was not competent for any printer
in Scotland to publish a copy of the Bible without the con•
sent of the Bible Board. Therefore, that was just as much
a restraint on the liberty of printing as if the privilege of
printing were granted to a limitd number of persons.
(Hear, hear.) If the Scottish system in that respect were
introduced into England, it would entail certain. expenses
not now incurred. He found that in the year 1858 the
salary of the Secretary to the Bible Board was £6OO ; those
of the law agents, £2-10 ; and the law charges amounted to
£2so—making an annual charge in respect of the Bible Board
of £l,OOO. He added, in reply to Mr. Hadfield, that no legis-
lation was required for the purpose of renewing the patent
of the Queen's printer. It was a grant derived from the
prerogative, and there was no occasion for that house to
legislate on the subject. The Government had not come to
any decision on the question. What he had said, there-
fore, was merely interlocutory, and other opportunities
would occur for bringing the matter under the considera-
tion of the house.
ROADS IN SCOTLAND.

Sir A. AGNEW asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether he could give any information
as to the proceedings of the Royal Commission appointed to
inquire into the management of roads in Scotland, and when
they were likely to publish their report.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said, according to a letter under the
hand of the Secretary to the Commission addressed to the
Home Department, the Commissioners had made very con-
siderable progress in their inquiries, and there was every
reason to believe that they would report before the end of
the present year.
THE WESTMINSTER PALACE CLOCK.
. .

Mr.IIANKEY asked the First Commissioner of Works
what was the reason why only two faces of the clock in the
clock tower are now made use of ; also, whether there had
been any late correspondence between the maker of the
clock and the architect of the Houses of Parliament or the
Board of Works ; and if so, whether there was any objec-
tion to lay such correspondence before the house ?
Mr. FITZROY said the reason was that the minute
hands and the counterpoises for the clock were found to be
so heavy that it was impossible to work the clock. (A laugh.)
The truth was there was a divided jurisdiction between the
architect of the palace and the maker of the clock. It was
originally proposed that the minute hands should weigh
2 cwt., but, having been cast in gun metal, the weight of
them had been increased to 3 cwt,, with something more
than 4 cwt, of counterpoise within the clock room, so that
the total weight amounted to no less than 7 cwt., in-
stead of 2 cwt. as originally proposed. Directions had been
given to Mr. Dent, the maker of the clock, to construct
new hands of the proper weight. A correspondence had
passed between the Department of Works and the architect
of the palace, but it would not throw much more light on
the subject.
THE SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH BETWEEN

ENGLAND 11;i1.5 FRANCE.
Sir S. NOItTHCOTE asked the Secretary to the Treasury
whether the Submarine Telegraph Company had been per-
mitted by her Majesty's Government to lay down any addi-
tional wires between England and France; and whether
the permission had been given to them without requiring a
surrender or modification of the mon6poly which had recently
been granted to that company by the French Government,
and which gave them an exclusive right to lay down lines
of telegraph between the two countries ; and whether there
would be any objection to lay on the table of the house the
correspondence relating to the subject.
Mr. LAING said the Submarine Telegraph Company
had recently obtained from the French Government a con-
cessiog to lay down additional wires between England and
France. The late Government entertained an objection to
the monopoly, and used all their influence to prevent the
company laying down the cable. An the present Govern-
into office they found a letter from the com•
pmaennytcoming
,
stating, among other things, that by their charter
they were protected until July, 1862, in the right of laying
down the cable between the two countries. The opinion
of the law officers of the Crown, to whom the matter had
been referred, was decidedly in favour of the view taken by
the present Government, and the prohihition Of the late
Government bad been withdrawn. An intimation, how-
ever, had beep; 6iiren to the :company to the effect that,