The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-15 00:00:00

rHE SUN, LON DON, SATURDAY EV ENING, AUGUST 15, 1857

that river to the Persian Gulf, and £0 on to India, a I
considerably increased facility in the conduct of our com-
mercial and political intercourse with that empire must
be the result. (hear.) We should also have the advan-
tage of any alternate route in competition with the line
of railway from Alexandria to Cairo, thence to Suez, and
down by the Red Sea, I am not, however, by any means
sure that the line in which the hon. gentleman seems to
take so great an interest is that which, if were about to
enter upon any project of the kind, the Government
would most desire to see adopted ; because, if railway
communication should be established—as I have no
doubt it will at no distanf period be—with Constanti-
nople, and if a line should be constructed from the other
side of the Bosphorus to the Persian Gulf, it is perfectly
plain a much shorter and better means of communi-
cation with India would be secured than that which
the hon. gentleman proposes, and which would involve
a sea passage either from Marseilles, Toulon, or Trieste,
to the further end of the Mediterranean. ([fear, hear.)
All these project', however, are, in my opinion, schemes
in reference to which her Majesty's Government ought
to be deliberate spectators. I entirely concur with my
right hon. friend the member for the University of Ox-
ford in the sentiments to which he gave expression in
that portion of his speech in which he so well and so
ably pointed out the inexpediency of the Government of
this country meddling directly in enterprises such as that
to which our attention has this evening been drawn, and
which are to be carried into execution in a foreign State.
My right hon. friend dwelt very forcibly on the political
consequences which would be likely to result from a
direct connection with such schemes, and, upon the
grounds to which he has adverted, her Majesty's Minis-
ters would be indisposed to mix themselves up with pro.
. jects of the nature of that which is now under discus.

relative to,,the introduction of this important subject to
the attention of the house at the end of the session, said
be thoughtthat those who took an interest in the prc jest
for the establishment of a railway through the Euphrates
Valley had made a judicious choice. The hon. gentleman
who had seconded the motion had stated the question as
though that house was to give to the subject money or
money's wortb, and that the only question to be further
considered was, to which of the two schemes they were
to afford assistance. That appeared to him (Mr. Glad•
stone) to raise the previous question, and to ask if there
were not serious difficulties in the way of entertaining
either proposition. He thought the house should regard
with some jealousy undertakings of this kind, urged on
the attention of Government and the country by hon.
members in their places in that house, because however
beneficial they might be in a philant'lropic point of view,
or in a political point of view, yet they were substantially
commercial undertakings, and ought to be left to stand
or fall according to their merits as such. (Hear, hear.)
He would rather the hon. member (Mr. Estcourt)
had asked for a certain amount of cash instead of a
guarantee. That be could have understood, but he
looked with aversion on guarantees. (Hear, hear.) Both
hon. members who hai addressed the house had d welt
on the political advantages to be derived from this com-
munication with India, but the plans were eminent'y
commercial, and must be so looked upon. (Hear, hear.)
Prudence, however, demanded that they should proceed
with caution with reference to our political relation with
the East, and the difficulty to him was when they recom-
mended that the purse of the English people should be
bled to find funds for promoting, directly or indirectly,
commercial undertakings in foreign countries, that they
laid a distinct ground for the political interference of the
British Government in the political affairs of those coun-
tries. (Hear, hear.) He thought they should be guided
by those rules in their conduct with reference to the
East, and which it should be the study of the Go-
vernment to maintain ; first, that we should not
give a handle to other powers of alleging that
we were setting an example of interference with
the political or domestic affairs of Turkey ; se-
condly, that we should endeavour to maintain the union
of European opinion on eastern affairs ; and thirdly,
that England should not repose entire confidence on re-
mote interventions to prevent the aggressions of Russia
on Turkey, but endeavour to raise up living barriers
between Constantinople and Russia. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman having expressed an opinion that
if practicable the Suez canal project would be of great
advantage if carried out, asked the noble lord at the
head of the Government if be was prepared to lay on
the table of the house authentic information relative to
the Principalities about which the people of this country
felt so much interest and anxiety. He confessed that
since he had given notice of his intention to ask the
question he had found that a similar question was put
aid answered last night in the other house. His apology
for it must be that owing to the pressure of Parliamen-
tary duties he was prevented this morning from attend-
ing the part of the usual daily clubs of man—or he might
say the whole duty of man—that of reading the daily
journals—(laughter)—and consequently that he was
ignorant of that fact. It was desirable that authentic
information should bo supplied, for failing that the
people were obliged to have recourse to what they must
have looked upon as reliable information. He earnestly
hoped that the noble lord would be able shortly to correct
the opinion which appeared to be generally entertained
respecting the recent proceedings in Moldavia. The
right hoe. gentleman proceeded to read several orders
and circulars issued to the prefects and officers of Mol-
davia on the subject of the recent elections in the Prin-
cipalities. These documents showed violent attempts
to interfere with the freedom of eleotion, which, the right
hon. member contended, had the effect while uncontra-
dieted of seriously affecting the character of England,
the Government of which ought to have been the parties
to quash the elections, and not the absolute Government
of France.

time ago what was tha opinion of the Government with
regard to that scheme. I stated, as I deemed it my
dutv to do—speaking as an unprofessional layman—that
I consider the scheme physically chirwrical ; that I

thought it would not be remunerative cournerci ,11y, and
that I also regard-A it as open to strong political objec-
tions. Those objections have, indeed, been constantly
urged at Constantinople within the last 15 years. The
main objection upon which our opposition to that scheme
was founded was that it was, as we considered, the first
step towards the separation of Egypt from Turkey, and
that it would thus tend to weaken that Turkish monar-

€hy for the maintenance of which Europe took up arms
three years ago. My right hen. friend thinks it was
very unbecoming of the Eogii:•
.h Government to oppose
a scheme which was approved by other countries simply
because it was considered irjurious to British interests.

Now, I must really beg to disFent from that principle.
It seems to me that if the British Government are of

opinion that any scheme is injurious to British interests
it is their duty to oppose it, however much their opposi-
tion to such scheme may thwart the political or coomer-
cial wishes of any other country. The first duty of a
Government is to look to the interests of the country ;
and if those interests are in conflict with any scheme
which is proposed they would be neglecting their duty if
they sacrificed the interests of England for the purpose
of accommodating themselves to the wishes or fancies of
any other Power. The strong ground and the only ground
upon which we have represented to the Government of
Turkey the inexpediency of concurring in the plan is
not the injury of England, but of Turkey—the danger
with which it would be attended to the integrity of the

Turkish empire. Therefore, when the apostle of the
Sues canal is preaching all over England in order to in.
duce English capitalists to give him those means which
he is unable to obtain from the rest of the world, for the
purpose of constructing this canal, it does not seem to
me that I took an improper course in explaining to
British capitalists that in affording monoy for the con-
struction of such a work they would be aiding a scheme
which was fraught with injury to the interests of Eng-
land herself. (Hear, bear )
SARDINIAN MEDALS.

sloe. To pursue a different policy would indeed be to
take a course at variance with that which has in similar
cages beet' adopted. Applications were made, for in.
stance, to the English Government upon the part of our
West Indian colonies of Demerara and of our North
American provinces for pecuniary assistance, and with
those applications the Government dee•ned it to be their
duty to refuse to comply. The only case, I may observe,
in which direct pecuniary aid was afforded was that of a
great anl important rail way in Ireland, but in that in-
stance the Exchequer-Bill CAnnaissioners merely ad-

Admiral WALCOTT called the attention of the house
to the circumstance that the medals bestowed by the
King of Sardinia had been awarded to the officers and
soldiers of the British army engaged in the Crimean war,
on the recommendation of his Royal Highness the Com-
mander-in-Chief, and that none were awarded to the
officers and seamen of the British Naval Brigade, who
served and worked side by side in .the trenches with the
army during the siege of Sebastopol. He made no coin-
plaint of any reward bestowed on the army, for the navy,
on the contrary, gloried in the triumphs of the army ;
but he thought it bard that the men of the Naval Brigade,
who had shared in the same privations, and who were
distinguished for the devil-may-care manner and rough
and ready way in which they surmounted all difficulties,
should have been altogether excluded front a share in the
Sardinian medals. He could imagine when the floating
bridge at Portsmouth brought over from Gosport some
soldiers, who would be employed, perhaps, in putting
down the atrocities which had occurred in India from
the mutiny of the troops, that one sailor might say to
another, "Leek at those soldiers, they are good and
gallant men, and we grudge them noshing ' • but see,
they have got the Sardinian medal, and why haven't we
got it too ? and that the other might reply, "Those who
sit up aloft ought to look down and take care of the
fortunes of poor Jack, but they do not." He therefore
trusted he should receive such an answer to his statement
as would remove a sore from the mind of the men and
officers of the Naval Brigade.
Mr. OSBORNE was not able to give so satisfactory
an answer to the hon. and gallant officer as he could
wish, but he could not refrain from paying his tribute of
respect to the hon. and gallant officer, who always
showed so great and kind a sympathy with the members
of his profession. The Board of Admiralty had nothing
to do with the distribution "f the medals in question.
The matter lay in the deptntment of the Minister for
War, and he confessed that it was matter of wonder to
him that no medals had been sent to the Admiralty.
This he thought must have arisen from some oversight,
for the officers and men of the Naval Brigade had de.
served well of their country. Some inquiry was now
being made into the matter.
NETLEY ABBEY.

vanced as a loan a certain amount to carry on the con•
struction of the necessary works, and security was ob-
tained by Act of Parliament for the repayment of that
sum by means of the rates of the counties through which
the railway passed. That the house will see is not an in-
stance at all applicable to the case in point ; and with
reference to the Euphrates Valley Rail way I can only
assure my hon. friend who brought forward this ques-
tion, that, however glad we should be to see that project
completed, we cannot hold out the slightest encourage-
ment that we should be disposed, either directly
or indirectly, to advance any money for the
attainment of that end. With respect to the question of
the establishment of a telegraphic communicatior, I can
only say that it is one which appears to me to stand in a
light somewhat different from that to which I have just
referred. A telegraphic communication ie somewhat
similar to that postal communication—to speak in mo
dern jargon—which has been established with distant
countries beyond the seas. If a telegraphic line were
laid down by the Euphrates Valley or by the Red Sea to
India, her Majesty's Government would, I think, very
wisely and properly, pay for the use of that line. The
subject is one open to consideration, and I must say that
in my opinion a cotnmunication of that description would
be found to be of the utmost importance to the interests
of the country. I believe that the company now engaged
in establishing the telegraphic line down the Valley of
the Euphrates—a company distinct, lam informed, from
that which has been alluded to as concerned in the pro-
ject for a rail way—will succeed in the attempt, and that
unless some unexpected difficulties arise, we may look
forward to the completion of the telegraphic line in
question within a definite period. The accomplishment
of that object would no doubt be productive of great
advantage, as it would place us in communication with
India by the construction of a telegraphic line to Kur-
rachee. Having said thus much in reference to the pro-
jects of a railway and a telegraphic line, I may be per-
mitted to advert to an entirely different topic, to which
my right hon. friend the member for the University of
Oxford has drawn,our attention—l allude to the proceed•
inns which have lately taken place in the Principalities.
My right hon. friend has got possession of a pamphlet, of
which a copy has been sent to me, but at which I had
not tame to look ; and upon the statements made in that
pamphlet, grounds his appeal to her Majesty's Govern-
ment to lay the papers connected with the recent transac-
tions in the Principalities upon the table of the house.
Now, it is my opinion that if all the pamphlets which
have been written by well-meaning Moldavians and Wal-
lachians within the last few years upon questions con-
nected with the Principalities could. be collected toge-
ther, they would occupy the greater portion if not the
entire of that table, and I cannot help thinking that
statements made in publications of that description can
scarcely with justice be held to furnish any conclusive
reasons upon which to found a claim for the production
of a diplomatic correspondence. There may be proper
demands upon other grounds ; but I do not think that it
fair to make upon the Government a demand for the pro-
duction of documents founded upon chance statements in
pamphlets. I apprehend that my right hon. friend can-
not have been in the house a few days ago when, in an-
swer to the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire, I
explained the state of affairs with regard to the Moldavian
principalities. I will repeat the statement I then made.
The treaty of Paris was concluded about a year ago—in
April last year, and not 2 years ago, as the right hon, gen-
tleman stated. [Mr. Gladstono—l beg pardon for com-
mitting such an error.] The treaty of Paris stipulated that
after the limitation of Bessarabia to form part of Moldavia
should have been completed, and after the territory so
transferred to Moldavia should have been actually hand•
ed over to Moldavia, tho Moldavian and Wallaobian
principalities should proceed to the election of two repre-
tative bodies to be called divans ; that these bodies should
take into consideration the wants and wishes of the peo-
ple in regard to the future internal organisation of the
principalities ; that during their deliberations there
should be in the provinces commissioners represen•
ting each of the contracting Powers ; that when the as-
semblies had considered all the matters submitted to
them, and when the commissioners had made their reports
upon what they had observed, the determination of the
assemblies and the reports of the commissioners should
be transmitted to the Congress of Paris, which was to
be re-assembled for the purpose of considering the sub-
ject ; and that then the Congress—in concert with the
Sultan, who would be represented in it—should come
to an understanding with the States as to what should
be the future internal organisation of the two provinces.
There was—for reasons of which it is unnecessary
fur me to remind the House —great delay in the
regulatiox of the Bessarabian provinces. (Hear, hear.)
That delay occasioned delay with regard to other matters;
and it was not until some little time ago that the firman
or decree of the Porte, determining in what manner the
elections should take place, was settled in concert by the
the repreeentatite s of the six Powers and the represen-
tatives of the Porte at Co istantinople. That firman was
sent to the provinces ; but the provinces differ in some
respects with regard to their internal arrangements.
The firman was sent to Bucharest, in Wallachia, where
the commissioners were stationed, bat it was found not
to be clear with respect to certain ,details of application.
Reference was made to Constantinople, and on the 30.1 e
of May the representatives of the Powers, in concert with
the Minister of the Porte, gave answers to the questions
which arose upon these doubts, and the answers were sent
to Bucharest. The same interpretation of the doubtful
points was to be acted upon both in Wallachia and Mol-
davia in as far as the internal differences of the two prin
cipalities rnightadmit. There werestill misunderstandings
The Rairnaikan of Moldavia did not think that the
doubts which bad been started with regard to Wallachia
applied to Moldavia. The elections took place, and then
representations were made that from the manner in
which the elections had been conducted certain classes
who were properly entitled to vote had been excluded
from voting. These representations led to discussions
at Constantinople. The representatives of four Powers
entertained one opinion as to the amount of irregularity ;
the representatives of England, Austria, and the Porte
took a different view. The representatives of the four
Powers called upon the Porte to annul the elections.
The Porte declined to do so, not deeming it a matter
which the representatives of the four Powers were com-
petent to decide ; but considering that as the question
had been discussed by the six Powers, such an applica-
tion should proceed from the representatives of all those
Powers. Differences arose ; and, as I stated before,
the late visit of the Emperor of the French at Osborne,
brining the two Governments into personal contact
and direct explanation, enabled us to come to an agree-
ment with the French Government that we would unite
with France—and we trusted Austria would do so also
—to remove all suspicion of irregularity with regard to
the elections, and that we would represent to the Sultan
that it was for his own interest that there should be
no imputation whatever as to the constitution of the
body whose wishes were to be taken into consideration
at the Congress of Paris. That matter, therefore, I now
consider as settled, especially as we have reason to know
that the Government of Austria is wiling to take the
same course which we have adopted. (Cheers.) My
right hon. friend has amused the house by reading pas.
sages describing the different irregularities which took
place at the elections. Those statements may or
may not be true ; and it is very well for us, who
have determined—especially in the case of the last general
election—to have our elections carried on in a manner
pretty free from imputation—(a laugh)—to think it ex-
traordinary that other countries do not conduct the elec-
tion of representative bodies with equal regularity ; but
when we recollect that these Moldavians and Walla-
c authoritiesh ians are totally
wish
t ounusedattain toon
one
such
result,pr o proceedings,—that eh
dili
en gos.at,ht—eir,tshtiaet
partiesthea re
desire another —that the political questions
debated with the utmost vehemence by opposite factions,
—and that the people are not accustomed to that
obedience to the law with which we are familiar,—it
cannot be surprising that such irregularities as are de-
tailed in the pamphlet quoted by my right hon. friend
should have occurred, I can only assure my right hon.
friend that if he was acquainted with what takes place
in' the kingdom of Greece—in which a system of repre-
sentative Government has been established for a con-
siderable period—he would find occurrences far exceed-
ing, not only in gravity but in absurdity, the cases he
has referred to as occurring in the principalities. The
result is, however, that there is now no difference of
opinion among the six Powers as to the propriety of
iannulling the elections, and having tho lists upon which
the elections are made revised in sucha manner as to in-
sure the strict and proper application of the firman of
the Porte. My right hon. friend has intoduced the
n
1
: eI
largel i Fongeauhv
ee-
cdnobnci eh-debated amt
doubte d
that
of
agreat th e projected
deal
o f
thatcanalin persuasive a
a t u
our Suez.
werhciiachl cii'tliesnowto
has been brought
to bear upon nay right Lon, frionti, ITi
OA asked souse
endeavouring
gople in savour
lof the scheme he recommends

Mr. A. STAFFORD called the attention of the house
to the evils and defects of the hospital at Netley Abbey,
stating that although certain modifications had been
made other changes were requisite, particularly with re•
spect to the wards. As at present conaructed the wards
would accommodate only eight or nine persons, whereas
there ought to be sufficient room for 18 or 20. With
such a building as Netley inspection would be difficult
and nursing impossible. He entreated the noble lord at
the head of the Government to consult Dr. Parker and
Dr. Sutherland as to the size of the wards with a view
to their alteration. 41
Mr. TITE agreed with the hon. gentleman that this
hospital, as at present planned, would not be creditable to
the country. He spoke not only with regard to the enor- '
mous outlay, which would not be less than 250,0001.,
but also on the score of humanity. With regard to the
size of the wards, those of the foreign hospitals held, he be-
lieved, 30 or 32 men. In the Netley Hospital there were
ten wards on the ground floor 15 feet by 13, receiving
no air or light from the exterior, but opening into the
corridor. These were to contain two men each. With re-
gard to the other wards they might, without any expense
worth talking of, be enlarged so as to hold 18 men in-
stead of nine, and this would be a great improvement.
The ventilation should be conducted on the n:►tural, not
on the artificialsystem. The windows ought to be opened,
and sufficient space allowed. Each man should have his
2,000 cubic feet, as was the practice in France. He would
earnestly press on the attention of the Government the
arguments which had been urged by the hon. member
opposite (Hr. Stafiord). He entreated them to stop this
work before it went any further. The mistake was re-
mediable now, but ere long it would be irremediable.

What they wanted was the assistance of an experienced
architect, accustomed to hospital arrangements. It was
most important, in a national point of view, when they
were about to expend a quarter of a million on the erec-
tion of an hospital,that they should avoid the commission
of serious blunders.
JUDICIAL PROCEDURE (INDIA).

Mr. AYRTON asked the President of the Board of
Control or the Chairman of the East India Company
whether it was the intention of the Home Government
not merely to remit to the authorities in India the power
of considering what should be the future system of admi-
nistering justice in that country, but also whether they
meant to allow the local Government of India to establish
new tribunals andeto carry the new system into eitecu-
tion before Parliament had any opportunity of expressing
its opinion on the subject?
Mr. MANGLES said that a letter was now in prepa-
ration for the Government of India, directing them not to
pass this law without further reference to the Imperial
Parliament. Any law passed by the Indian Government
must remain for a certain time on the table of that house,
when it was in the power of any hon, member to object
to it. When such a measure had laid on the table and
bad not been revoked by Parliament it then beeame the
law of India.
THE PRINCIPALITIES, ROME, AND NAPLES.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I do not think the example of
this discussion will tend very much to the regularity of
our debates ; but I wish to address a few words to the
house on a subject which has been lost sight of for nearly
an hour. The right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Oxford having asked some questionst re-
specting Wallachia and Moldavia, I cannot but observe
upon what appeared to me to be an omission on the pert
of-my noble friend in making his explanation. MY
I noble friend stated that the four powers went to the
Porte and asked that the elections should be annulled;
and that the Sultan naturally said that a representation
of that kind ought to have come, not from two, but
from the whole of the six powers ; and that there was
therefore some demur in agreeing to the proposal. I
have understood, and I see it in the newspapers, that
there was a previous step on the part of the ambassador'of
England and the -internuncio of Austria. The elections
having been delayed by a general agreement, I have been
led to believe—indeed it is stated in a letter, though I
don't know whether it is a genuine letter or not—but the
letter states that there was a representation to the effect
that the Sultan should not delay the elections any
longer, and that he should send orders to have them
immediately carried into effect. The letter even says,
the ambassador of England and the internuncio of Aus-
tria stated that they were ready to be responsible for all
the consequences that might flow from their interfer-
ence. The Sultan, not thinking that the intervention
of the six powers was necessary, complied with the re-
quest of the English and Austrian representatives. The
elections took place ; and hence the irregularities, and
the interference of the four powers. The interference of
those four powers was thus not a spontaneous action on
their part, but it arose from the previous interference
of England and Austria. Now, if these latter did in-
terfere in that way, it was an ill-advised step, and a
step ill calculated to maintain that agreement between
all the powers and that good understanding which is
so necessary to the general tranquillity of Europe.
(Hear, hear) With regard to the other question,
namely, the union of the Principalities—the Divan being
assembled—if it should express a strong wish that the
Principalities should be united, I do not see that it
would be right or practicable for the Powers of Europe
to advise the Sultan to do otherwise than to concur in
that opinion. At the same time it would be a step to
which I shall look with no very great confidence ; be-
cause I am afraid if the Sultan is to have the kingdom
of Greece on the one side and the kingdom of Moldo-
Wallachia on the other side of his dominions, it
may tend to weaken his power-e-which power we
entered into the late war for the purpose of
maintaining. That, however, is entirely a ques-
tion for speculation, and one that must be left to the
decision of her Majesty's Government. Whether it was
wise to convene the Divans may bo a matter for debate;
but having convened them, I think it would not be prac-*
ticable to oppose any well-considered wish which may be
expressed by the representatives of the people. As to a
free government—surrounded by Russia, by Turkey, and
by Austria, which are all inimical to free government—
that will be a great difficulty; and as we have guaranteed
such a free' government, it may lead to complications.
(Hear.) There has been much desultory discussion to-
night ; but there is one subject with regard to which, see-
ing that the session is drawing so near to He close, I
cannot help expressing some regret and some disappoint-
ment. Last year the ministers of great Britain and France
expressed at Paris their earnest hope that the occupation
of the Roman territory by France and Austria should
cease ; and Lord Clarendon pointed out that if certain
improvements and reforms took place in the Roman go-
vernment, the foreign occupation might no longer con- ,
tinue. The French and English Governments both
pointed out that the present was an abnormal state of I
things, and one by which the tranquillity of Europe
might he endangered: Now, we have been told that the
Pope has been to Bologna : and we are informed that to
all the requests that were made to him-to effect a reform

in his government, he expressed a fear that any reform ; The bill was entirely without justification, because there
would lead to anarchy ; and he at once refused. The con- was not the sliglreat occasion for it.
sequence must thus be that the foreign occupation must Mr. ADAMS eleo objected to the passing of the bill.
continue—an occupation by Austria on the one hand, be- He coeeid, red it most unjust that the penalties of a re-
cause she has long had great influence in Italy, and an pealed act should be lino ,sed upon new companies.
occupation by France on the other hand, in order to show Some words, to which Mr. Mains assented, being iu-
that she is not disposed to leave this foreign occupation to troduced by the Government, the bill passed.
Austria alone. I must say that such a state of things is The Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill was read
totally inconsistent with the treaty of Vienna and with a second time.
the independence of a foreign power. A power which The Militia Bill was read a second time.
for eight years has had foreign troops in its dominions, The Lords' Amendments to the Court of Session (Scot-
and is now obliged to confess that it cannot maintain land) Bill were read and agreed to.
its internal tranquillity without the aid of two The Customs and Excise Bill was read a second time.
allied powers, and without foreign troops within its The Customs Bill was read a second time.
dominions to suppress disLurbances—esuch a power can- The Jurisdiction in Siam Bill was read a second time.
not be held to be an independent one ; and we must The Trustees Relief Bill was read a sec md time.
therefore lament that such a state of things should cm- The Charitable Trusts Acts Continuance Bill passed
tinue. Of course it is not a question for a quarrel with through committee.
those powers; but we may hope that such a state of The Probates and Letters of Administration (Ireland)
things will speedily cease, and that those powers will Bill passed through eommittee.
hasten as much as possible to evacute the Roman terrie The Parochial Soh-one:asters (Scotland) No. 2 Bill
tories. (Hear.) With regard to Naples, nothing can was read a second time, and afterwards passed though
be said. If the King of Naples can maintain internal committee.
•,
traquillity in his dominions without foreign assistance,
SALE OF OBSCENE BOOKS, &c., PREVENTION
we have, of course, no right to interfere ; but ewe have
BlLit
some right to interfere when foreign troops are allowed
to occupy the territory of another power. (Hear.) Oa the order for going jut mittee on this bill,.
Viscount PALMERSTON—I have no right to inter- Mr. ROEBUCK thought as impossible for metn-
pose, or to say one word ; but perhaps the house will bars at that time of the morning (25 minutes past one)
permit me to correct my noble friend with regard to a to apply their minds to the subject. (Hear, hear, and
matter of fact which is of some importance. My noble laughter.) He reeved the adjournment of the debate.
friend conceives that the tworepresentatives at Constan- Mr. OSBORNE thought the hon. member for Sheffild
tinople—namely, those of England and Austria—sepa- deserved great praise for directing attention to the bill,
rated themselves from the other four. Now, the fact is which was a most noxious measure, and an advertisement
just the reverse—it was the four who took the first stet-, for obscene books. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
and separated from the two ; and the subsequent advice The debate was adjourned till Wednesday next.
given by the two was advice given in answer to' an ae• The Militia Pay Bill passed through committee, was
plication from the Porte, with a view to obtain their read a third time, and passed.
opinion. The matter has, however, now gone by. It The house adjourned at a quarter before two.
relates to misunderstandings which were not intentional
either on the part of the four or of the two. It is now a
mere matter of past history, and it can have no bearing
upon the future. (Rear.)
Lord J. MANNERS briefly remarked on the incon-
venience of bringing forward the subject of Naples and
of Rome without previous notice. Tue matter was one
of extreme delicacy, and one that the house would not
wish now to discuss ; hut he hoped that they would not
be considered as in any manner committed by the obser-
vations which the noble lord bad made. (Rear.)
TARIFFS.
Mr. NEWDEGATE perceived that the right hon.
gentleman the President of the Board of Trade bad given
notice of an amendment upon a motion of his with re-
gard to certain returns on the subject of foicign tariffs.
The noble lord's Government was the only one that had
afforded him any assistance in the important work he
(Mr. Newdegate) had undertaken—namely, a compen-
dium of all the tariffs in the world ; but he was afraid
that the right hon, gentleman was about to alter the form
in which his compendium had been published. He
wished to know if that would be the case ?
Mr. LOWE expressed surprise st the question. He
had informed the hon. gentleman at his office that he
should not press the atuendmentand that the hon. gen-
Cernan might have his returns unopposed.
The motion for adjournment till Monday was then
withdrawn.
MR. GLADSTONE AND THE DUKE OF
NEWCASTLE'S DIVORCE.
On the motion for going into committee on the Divorce
Bill,
Mr. GLADSTONE rose and said he had for the first
time in his life to bring under the consideration of the
house a matter personal to himself. He had road on the
12th of August in a report of one of those cases which
unhappily were so frequently in the columns of the public
lemmata, in which in the speech of the counsel he found
the following :—" The learned sergeant would, no
doubt, he said, make.a good many severe observations
upon the witness Taylor, but the jury would bear in
mind that guilt of the character attributed to the defen-
dant could only be established by the aid of such persons ;
and that the journals of the House of Lords bore testi-
mony to the.fact that a right hon. gentleman, who was
once a Minister of the Crown, had tracked the wife of a
noble duke who after Wards obtained a divorce all through
Italy, and appeared as a witness to prove the adultery,
and that the fact of a man in the position of life of the
plaintiff employing a man named Taylor to bring the
charge home to the defendant ought not to operate against-
him, and that he was clearly entitled to damages if they
considered the charge was established." In the Morning
Post of that day, in allluding to that report, he
found a leading article containing the following
attempt to connect the matter with his conduct in that
house :--" An interesting episode in the history of the
right hon. gentleman has recently been given by a learned
sergeant, to which we must beg to refer as illustrative of
the consistency of one who, in the year 1851, was a
party to a divorce bill similar in all its essential provi-
sions to the present, and who, in 1857, loudly predates
that no divorce ,is permissible by Divine law. In a
recent case of criminal conversation some discredit was
cast upon the evidence of an individual who had been
brougnt forward to prove the act of adultery. The
counsel for the husband, in defending this witness, said,
" but the. jury shoield bear in mind that guilt of the
character mttributed- to the defendant could only be
ascertained by the aid of such persons, and that the
journals of the House of Lords bore testimony to the
fact that a right hon. gentleman, who was once a Minister
of the Crown, had tracked the wife of a noble duke,
who after wards obtained a divorce, . all through Italy,
and appeared as witness to prove her adultery.' Tile
right hon. gentleman alluded to by Mr. Sergeant Parry
was the member for the University of Oxford—the man
who now would . deny to the poor that relief which he
himself was the principal means of obtaining for a noble
and wealthy colleague." He did not intend to take
steps, which, perhaps, in former times might have been
taken in such a matter, but he would simply meet the
falsehood by a statement of the truth. The two state-
ments which had been made were in substance that he
was employed by a noble duke for the-purpose of track-
ing his wife, and obtaining evidence of her adultery.
That statement was entirely false. If he had been
capable of accepting such an employment, the noble duke
was a person quite incapable of conferring such employ-
ment. The other statement was that he (Mr. Gladstone)
was the principal witness for the purpose of obtain-
ing the divorce of a noble and wealthy colleague.
The truth of that statement could- be tested by a
reference to the journals of the House of Lords.
It was not true that he went for the pur-
pose, or had anything to do with the collection of
evidence of adultery ; hot, on his oath before the
House of Lords he had stated that he went for a
purpose, as hs conscientiously believed, alike friendly to
the interest of both parties concerned. It was totally
untrue that his evidence was the evidence, or was part
of the evidence, on which the divorce was founded. He
was told ibat he was called, and he believed that he was
called simply for the purpose of showing that the person
claiming the bill at the hands of the ilouse of Lords had
omitted no means that duty or affection could suggest
of conciliation. That, was why he was called' as a wit-
ness, and no ee, having refeired to the noble duke who
was so painfully connected with this matter, he had only
' to add that no one, on the revival of this painful subject,
could look back to the conduct of that noble duke with
out feelings of the warmest admiration and respect,
(Hear, hear.)

Country MarketF,

DIVORCE BILL.

The house then went into committee on this bill.
Clause 26, with several verbal amendments, was passed,
ClAnse 27 was then considered.

Mr. BOVILL proposed,to introduce words to enable
the Court to inquire into the conduct of the parties.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected to theamend-
meet as unnecessary, because the clause, as it stood, em-
braced in a definite manner the object the hon. and
learned gentleman had in view.
Mr. I. BUTT opposed the amendment.
Mr. BOVILL urged in reply, that his amendment
was necessary to make the clause complete.
Mr; GLADSTONE also opposed the amendment, but
he considered the clause wanted alteration to make it
agree with the two following clauses, which treated upon
th© same 'subjects.
Mr. I. 'BUTT suggested that the clause should be
amended by introducing into it the provision of the 29th
clause. That would give power by the 27th clause to
inquire into all Matters on which the judgment of the
Court was to be founded, and the 28th and 29th clauses
would show the effects to result from that inquiry.
Mr. WIGRAM objected to the proposition of the hon.
and learned member for Youghal.
Mr. BOVILL urged his amendment as necessary to
make the proceedings accord with the present principle
and practice of the Ecelesiastical Courts and the House
of Lords in cases of divorce.
Mr. MALINS-suggested that the Government should
adopt the amendment.
Sir J. GRAHAM supported the amendment, believ-
ing the words were necessary to make the proceedings
of the new tribunal consistent with those they were
about to abolish.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was still of
opinion that the clause as it stood gave all the securities
required, but if the committee were of a contrary opinion
ho would give way. (Hear.)
After, some discussion, in which Sir J. Graham, Mr.
Henley, Mr. Wigram, and the Attorney-General tcok
part.
Mr. WIGRAM suggested a proviso giving to the
word "accessory'' in this clause the meaning intended
by the amendment of the honourable and learned mem-
ber for Guildford.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL assented to the sug-
gestion.
The committee divided upon Mr. Bovill's amendment,
and the numbers were—
For the amendment 55
Against it
Majority against the amendment ,-38
The amendment was therefore negatived.
On the question that clause 27, as amended, stand
part of the bill,
'Mr. GLADSTONE thought that if the existing prac-
tice-of the House of Lords was to be departed from, the
committee ought to divide against the clause.
'The ATTORNEY GENERAL held that the prac-
tice which now prevailed was not in fact departed from
in the present bill.
The clause was agreed 0.
•On the motion of Mr. BOWYER,
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Monday.
JOINT STOON. COMPANIES ACT (1855)
AMENDMENT BILL.
_ _

TANS objected. By a bill passed last year all
wass tiroenaaatthitirad.otpimases.,
assloVlThurarai.stuhMcbeeiAlgleorapanics were exempted from the operation
of that act, and from the 7th and Bth Viet. Some com-
panies had been established under that act, but this bill
would impose upon those companies established since the
pa3aing ot the act of 1856 penalties for not complying
with the 7th anntir 'Victoria, which Lekbeea repealed
•