The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-03 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLIC PAUPER CHILDREN.

The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition from Essex
in favour of affording additional facilities for the education
of Roman Catholic children in workhouses.
THE DUKE OF MODENA.

The Marquis of NORMANBY gave notice that on
Monday next he would draw the attention of the house to
certain aspersions which were current relative to the Duke
of Modena. These aspersions were stated in the House of
Commons by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he was
appealed to by certain persons interested in vindicating
the character of the Duke of Modena to bring
forward this subject. He would also move for the produc-
tion of any extracts from despatches forwarded from the
accredited minister of this country in Central Italy.
Lord BROUGHAM considered it would conduce more
effectively to the vindication of the Duke of Modena if the
subject were to be brought forward in the house where the
alleged aspersions were made, and not where the right hon.
gentleman who made them had no opportunity of defend-
ing himself. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NOR.MANBY made some explanation,
which was inaudible.

Earl GRANVILLE considered that the noble marquis
was out of order.

The Marquis of NORMANBY stated that the opinions
of the noble and learned lord (Lord. Brougham) would have
been entitled to some consideration if they were the same
which he entertained 10 years ago.
Lord BROUGHAM attempted to address the house, but
the confusion arising from these irregular proceedings was
so great that he could not be heard.
The subject then dropped.
SUBDIVISION OF DIOCESE BILL.

Lord LYTTELTON moved that the house go into com-
mittee on this bill, and vindicated the measure from the
objections raised to it by the Episcopal Church.
The Bishop of LONDON bore testimony to the care
which the noble lord bestowed on this bill, and the discus-
sion which had been elicited would produce good results,
but that result was not embodied in this bill. He thought
i t would be more advisable to postpone the measure until
next session, for there would be no chance at
hat period of the bill being passed by the other house.
The bill proposed to give powers to the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission to which he could not give his sanction, and, with
all respect for that body, he thought the powers conferred
on it were too extensive. He did not fear any-
thing from discussion in the other house, and he ad-
mitted that some improvements were introduced into
the bill. He was, however, one of those who
were opposed to the multiplication of bishops; he strongly
objected to the frequent interference with the governing
powers of the Episcopate, and referring to Winchester,
London, and other great sees to show how efficiently their
affairs were administered, said he could discover no advan-
tage in dividing such large sees. He thought, in proceed-
ing with this bill at present, they would be interfering
with future useful legislation, and he drew atten-
tion to the fact that the bill was founded on the
general recommendations of the commissioners, but on no
particular recommendation. He considered that what was
required was not to multiply the number engaged in the
administration of the Church, but to increase its working
power. He contended that the deans of the Church should
be placed in a position of greater power,
which would render them more efficient.
What was required w is a reformation of the ecclesiastical
law, in illustration of which he adverted to the length of
proceedings in ecclesiastical trials.
Lord OVERSTONE joined in the earnest request:wh!ch
the right reverend prelate (the Bishop of London) had made
to withdraw the present bill.
Lord LYTTELTON replied, and called the attention of
their lordships to the ample discussion which the bill had
received, and he declined to accede to the request of the
right rev. prelate to withdraw it.
The Duke of MARLBOROUGH defended the bill, and
asserted that the discussions which had taken place on the
subject proved that the general impression in Parliament
was in favour of the bill. However, if there was an im-
pression on the mind of the noble lord (Lyttelton) that
the bill would not pass the other house this session he
thought he should not pledge the house to its provisions by
pressing it forward on the present occasion.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he thought the ends
which the noble lord had in view were more likely to be
served by the withdrawal of the bill.
Lord EBURY said there was no chance of the bill
passing this session, he did hope that the n-,ble lord would
consent not to proceed any further with the bill for the

present.
The Earl of MALMESBURY also recommended the
noble lord to withdraw the bill.

Earl GRANVILLE said that as every peer who had
spoken in the debate had opposed the bill, either entirely or
in part, he would join the appeal which had been made to the
noble lord not to press the motion on that occasion.
Lord LIFFORD said he hoped the noble lord would
press the bill to a division, assuring him that he would
support him if he did so.

Lord LYTTELTON declined to withdraw the bill.
Their lordships accordingly divided, and the numbers
were—

Contents
Non-contents
Majority against going into commit tee —57
LANDED PROPERTY IMPROVEMENT, &c.,
(IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved the second
reading of this bill, which empowered landlords to borrow
money as a charge on the estate, for the purpose of im-
proving the dwellings of the labourers. The bill had not
been opposed in the other house, and he presumed it would
not be opposed by their lordships.
The Earl of DONOUGH MORE agreed that it might
be advisable, in special cases, to enable landlords to borrow
money for improving the dwellings of the labourers, but
he hoped the bill would not be drawn into a precedent. He
should not oppose the second reading of the bill.
Lord MONTEAGLE b'tving said a few words,
The Marquis of BATH said this was a question which
Government ought to take up. Act after act was passed on
this subject, and no one knew what the law was.
Lord WESTMEATH had objections to the bill, but he
was not going to opiose it in form.
Lord TALBOT de MAL All IDE said, no doubt if
power to raise money was used wisely and judiciously much
good might be done.
Lord DUNGANNON said, from what he had seen he
doubted that this bill would be appreciated by the lowed
classes in Ireland. He doubted that the
cottages would be
kept in repair unless that duty fell upon the landlord.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE having replied, the
bill was then read a second time.
OFFICERS OF RESERVE (ROYAL NAVY). BILL.
Their lordships went into committee on this bin.
Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Lord HARDWICK E moved, as an amendment, that
officers in the merchant service should undergo the same
examination, and before the same tribunal, as midshipmen
in the navy.
The Duke of SOMERSET said the amendment merely pro-
posed that which could bo done by orders and regulations,
and it was objectionable to make such matters part of an
Act of Parliament. He was anxious not to excite the
jealousy of the officers of the navy, but on the other hand
he was desirous of obtaining the services of the men of
the mercantile marine ; and he, therefore, thought the bill
should be worded in terms as general as possible. The exa-
miners of the masters of the mercantile navy were as stringent
as those of the Royal navy. It was true that gunnery did
not form a part of the exercise, but was that necessary ex-
cept for the purpose of qualifying men for the Royal navy ?
He had no fear that there would be any difficulty in induc-
ing them to learn gunnery, and that if the bill were passed
in its present form, that they would be found willing to
come forward as members of the reserve.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he agreed that it
was inexpedient to do anything that would fetter the discre-
tion of the Government, and he was, therefore, surprised
that the bill should be brought in at all, inasmuch as suffi-
cient power existed in the hands of her Majesty to effect
that which the bill aimed at creating. He was, however,
glad to see the measure brought forward, because it was an
indication of the intentions of Government to make provi-
sion in time of peace for a war which he (the 'Earl of Ellen-
borough) had always considered inevitable. It was not,
however, sufficient that preparations should be made for
readiness at the end of the first six months of such a war,
but that everything should be in readiness and prepared to
meet an enemy within the filet six days of the war. For
whenever war did come it would be after a long period of
preparation, and with every essential for immediate action.
It was necessary, therefore, to educate the mercantLe offi-
cers for service in a time of war, otherwise they would be
of no use when called ueon to give their aid. They might
know navigation, but, practically speaking, that knowledge
was of little importance. What was required of them was
a knowledge of gunnery, and a knowledge of steam and
its management. Then when they were competent in
these respects, and could do their duty as officers, let
them have rank as officers, and be respected as such.
(Hear, hear.) To commit the care of a great man-of-
war to a man who had previously been in the habit of
managing a 500 ton sailing ship only, would be an act of
insanity deplorable to contemplate. (Hear, hear.)e Royal The
real of sucheffic,ers would be in commanding th