The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-25 00:00:00

with the estimates so early in the session as formerly, be-
cause among the new practices that had sprung up was
the practice of bringing forward a number of amend-
ments on the motion of going into supply. (Hear, hear.)
The opinion which the hon. member for Lambeth had ex-
pressed was opposed to the opinion which he had given in
the committee on the subject, and he was more disposed to
agree with that opinion than the one which the hon. mem-
ber had just stated.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said another new practise was
that of Government when there was a new motion which
they thought incorrect, getting iid of it by counting out the
house. That he believed was the real reason why these
motions were made. He spoke feelingly, for he had lately
given notice on a motion which was twice counted out, and
yet when he brought it on upon a supply night he found
the Government had no objection to it, and they actually
agreed to his motion. (A laugh.) That was the reason
why, though Government had now an extra night, no
progress was made. At the time when the present mode
of proceeding was agreed to, it was on the condition that
the votes should be made in the same manner as the army
and navy estimates, but Government had taken the advan-
tage of the recommendation of the committee that votes on
account should be given without accepting the disadvantage
of adopting the same principle as was applied to the mili-
tary estimates. It was said last year that the vote on ac-
count would not be made a precedent, and so perhaps it
would be said this year ; but it might go on that way, from
year to year, till it became the practice. If this was to be
put a stop to they must make a stand some time, and he
thought they could not do so at a better time than the
present. If they did not stop it the house would lose all
control, and although they did not now usually reject votes,
they might exercise a very useful function by criticising
votes, though they did not reject any item.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
that whatever was the cause of the postponement of supply
to the end of the session it was much to be regretted, and it
well deserved the consideration both of the house and of the
Government how it might be remedied. Though no doubt
the extra supply might have been of some advantage, it was
not of so considerable value as appeared to be supposed. He
did not agree with Sir Stafford Northcote, that Government
had got into a habit of counting out on a supply night, nor
could he see how the Government were more responsible
for it than Sir Stafford Northcote himself and his friends.
On the single supply night when there had been a count-
out he was as much surprised as any hon. member. When
it was said that a stand must be made, and that now was
the time to make it, he must say that it was precisely be-
cause Government were carrying out the recommendations
of the committee that they were obliged to come to the house
for votes on account, which they should not require if they
had balances in hand to use without check. The recom-
mendations of the committee were partly fulfilled, and the
way cleared for fulfilling them completely. The way it
was proposed " to make a stand" was to have the votes pro-
posed all at once. He could conceive no way of more com-
pletely uniting the disadvantages of both parties. The
result would be that the whole estimates would be passed
in a single vote, and there would be no opportunity of dis-
cussion, and it would throw all the public business into
confusion.
Mr. HENLEY said the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had placed the house in a difficult position, but it appeared
to him that they were carrying on two systems at once.
The right hon. gentleman said he was approximating to it.
[Assent from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.] Well, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer nodded his head, but perhaps
he might approximate the other way. Perhaps he was
oscillating. He did oscillate sometimes. (Laughter.) Per-
haps by-and-bye he would take balances. He protested
against this mode of proceeding. Let them take one course
or the other. The right hon. gentleman said they had only
counted out one supply night, but there were several nights
when they might have put supply on and did not. They
had no security that " approximation" would ever be com-
pletely carried out.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
hon. member had much narrowed the question by putting
the objection on the ground that there had been no pledge
from Government that the recommendations of the com-
mittee would be carried out. Bet he did not think it neces-
sary to give any such pledge, because it would be a mere
reiteration, Government having pledged themselves to that
course at the time when the committee made their report,
and having already taken steps to carry it into effect.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he understood at the time
that a bill or bills would be introduced to carry out the re-
commendations of the committee.
Mr. F. PEEL was understood to say that it was the in-
tention of Government to bring in a bill for that purpose.
Mr. DISRAELI said the vote on account last year
was considered highly objectionale, and was agreed to
with great reluctance on the part of the house, only on the
assurance of Government that it should not be a precedent,
and should not be done again. Yet now we had already
had a vote on account this session, and a second was pro-
posed. The position of Government was very different, as
there were last year strong reasons which did not now exist
for taking an exceptional course, If this system were
allowed to proceed, Parliament would lose all control over
the expenditure. What means had they of expressing their
opinion on this vote to .night ? He felt that unless the
house now made a stand it would be parting with a portion
of its most honourable privileges. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that the delay was not owing
to any disposition on the part of the Government to post-
pane supply. On the last occasion of going into committee
of supply there were as many as twenty-six motions to dis-
pose of, and on other days there had been also a large num-
bar. With respect to the amendment before the committee,
it would only be aggravating the evil to postpone the vote,
as that would entail hardships upon innocent public ser-
vants to whom payments and salaries were due. So far as the
"count outs" were concerned, they were matters for whic h
hon. members were themselves to blame, and not the Go-
vernment, for if each hon. member who had a motion on
the paper for those days had been in attendance, there
would have been a sufficient number to have prevented
those unfortunate occurrences. In order to show that the
Government were really in earnest in this matter of supply,
it was proposed to take advantage of the new arrangements,
and make supply on Tuesday (this day) the first order.
He appealed to the committee, on these grounds, not to
adopt the motion. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought that the course taken by
the Government in permitting the house to be counted out
on Tuesdays had had the effect of inducing members to sot
down the motions on going into committee of supply.
The committee divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it l4B
Majority against
Mr. CHILDERS wished to know whafwas the aggregate
amount of the balances in hand in the public departments?
Mr. F. PEEL said that the balances in the hands of the
Paymaster-General were inconsiderable.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE inquired when the miscellaneous
estimates would be brought forward for real discussion ?
Lord PALMERSTON could not say on what day it
would be, but the Government would bring them forward
as soon as possible after the army and navy estimates.
The vote was then agreed to, and the house resumed.
PAROCHIAL AND BURGH SCHOOLS (SCOT
LAND) No. 2 BILL.

The LORD ADVOCATE moved the second reading of
this bill, the object of which, he said, was to put an end to a
long-standing dispute on the subject of those schools in
Scotland, by means of a just and reasonable compromise.
And it provided that the schoolmaster should give religious
iustructiun in the brief form contained in the Westminster
Catechism, without requiring any declaration either to the
Established Church or the Free Church. The bill was

not quite all that he could wish, but it would afford a corn:
mon ground upon which all parties could meet, while
the condition of the schoolmaster would be somewhat im-
proved.

After some discussion, in which Mr. C. Bruce, Mr.
Black, Mr. Mure, and Mr. Caird took part,
The bill was read a second time.
. HARBOURS BILL.
The amendments to this bill were considered and agreed
to, after ineffectual attempts on the part of Mr. Miller and
Mr. Vance to introduce further amendments.
The Public Works (Ireland) Advances and Repayment
of Moneys Bill passed through committee.
The Wills of Personalty by British Subjects Bill was
read a second time.

The Wills and Domicile of British Subjects Abroad Bill
was read a second time.
The Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes (Ireland)
Bill passed through committee.
The Leases, &c., by Incumbents Restriction Bill was
read a second time.

The Piers and Harbours Bill passed through committee.
The Grand Juries, &c. (Ireland) Bill was read a second

The Voters (Ireland, No. 2) Bill passed through com-
mittee.
The Poor Assessments (Scotland) Bill was read a third
time.

CHURCH-RATES LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. CROSS moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend
the law of church-rates. The hon. member said the great
object of the measure was not to " ticket" dissenters, which
seemed to be the great objection with some gentlemen on
both sides of the house.

After some observations from Mr. NEWDEGATE and Sir
M. PETO,

Leave was given to bring in the Lill. The bill was then
brought in and read a first time,'and ordered to be read a
second time on Wednesday week.
The remaining orders wero postponed, and the house ad-
journed at two o'clock.

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