The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-18 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(YESTERDAY.)

The LOUD CHANCELLOR. took his seat on the woolsack
it five o'clock.
The Earl of KINNAIRD presented a petition against
the Edinburgh Assessment Bill.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Rhyl Bridge, Workington Tidal Basin and Railway,
And the Clifton Suspension Bridge Bills, were read a third
lime and passed.
TIIE GALWAY CONTRACT.

The Marquis of NORMANBY wished the noble lord to
give a further explanation of the answer he had given to
ja question he had put to him the other evening, especially
;as an idea somewhat different prevailed on the other side of
*he water. The noble lord had stated that no official
correspondence existed between the Lord Lieutenant
f Ireland and the Government on the subject of theGalway
jrC ontract. He believed, however, there was a private cor-
=respondence, and he should like to know for certain whe-
Aher that was the case. The noble lord then went on to
complain of the observations made in the other House of
Parliament by the Secretary for Ireland with respect to the
authority of the Lola. Lieutenant of Ireland relative to the
'withdrawal of the contract.

Earl GRANVILLE said he could only refer the noble
marquis to the answer he had given on a former occasion,
to the effect that there was no official correspondence be-
tween the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the home
Government. There had, no doubt, been some communi-
cations with the lord-lieutenant on the subject, as he (Earl
Granville) and the noble lord behind him (Lord Stanley of
Alderley) and the Prime Minister had received letters from
him touching the subject. He thought it would be highly
inconsistent to enter into a discussion upon certain state-
=cuts in private communications.
The Earl of CLANCARTY considered the manner in
which the lord-lieutenant had been treated on the subject
was lowering to the high office he held. He thought it ex-
traordinary that the noble earl the Viceroy should not have
been officially consulted on such a very important subject.
The Earl of LEITRIM said he had no doubt it was very
inconvenient to produce private communications. He
thought it highly inconsistent that private correspondence
should take place on public subjects. He supposed,
that because a letter commenced "My dear lord," instead
of "My lord," the noble lord considered it a private
communication. He denied that the Lord Lieutenant could
lose his popularity by putting forth an opinion publicly, be-
cause he had none to lose. He considered the Lord Lieutenant
was made use of by all parties that required him—he was
made use of as the Merryandrew on all occasions. (Order,
order.) Well, then, he was made use of to increase the
effect of any public show in which he was required. It was
high time to decide whether the Government of Ireland was
to be reformed or not.
Lord PORTMAN rose to order. There really was no
motion before the house.
Lord BROUGHAM said the noble lord did not know
but that the noble earl was going to conclude with a mo-
tion for a repeal of the union. (Laughter.)
The subject then dropped.
EDINBURGH ASSESSMENT BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
IRISH MAGISTRATES.

The Earl of LEITRIM moved for returns giving the
names of the police officers who have been appointed to be
stipendiary magistrates daring the years 1858, 1859, 1860,
and 1861, showing the dates of their appointments as sti-
pendiary magistrates, the dates of their first appointment to
the police, and their subsequent promotions in the police ;
showing if each such officer underwent ar y examination,
competitive or otherwise, previous to his appointment as sti-
ptndiary magistrate ; and distinguishing such as have been
recommended by the lieutenant of the county to which he
is appointed.
The return was ordered.

IPERIAL PARLIAMENT. exhibition which had been announced to take place at the amendment, ti no ce of which had been given by the right
Crystal
Palace to-morrow, and the managers of the Crystal hon. bart. the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham.)
Palace had been written to on the subject, the result of Sir G. GREY said that by the amendment, in the form
which he trusted would be that the exhibition eentem- proposed, the proceedings of the house would be turned
plated of a child of tender years would be prevented. into ridicule, and the proposal was trifling with the time of
THE VACANT SEATS APPROPRIATION BILL. the house.
The house went into committee on appropriation of the Mr. NEWDEGATE said that no county had such claim
seats of St. Albans and Sudbury, and resumed at clause 3. for the vacant seat as Middlesex. He was born in that
Sir F. GOLDSMID regretted the absence of the right county—(a laugh)—and was well acquainted with its claims
hon. baronet the member for Carlisle, but ho gave notice in consequence of his having acted for some time past as
that he would move the amendment which ho (Sir James chairman oftheMiddlesex Registration Association. (Hear.)
Graham) had put on the paper for the London University Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the best course would
being substituted for Chelsea and Kensington in the dis- be to permit the amendment in favour of Middlesex to be
tribution of those vacant seats. proposed.
Mr. DUNCOMBE moved that Burnley be substituted Mr. BLACKBURN withdrew his amendment.
for Chelsea and Kensington. Mr. KNIGHTLEY wished to say a few words in sup-
Colonel DUNNE proposed that an additional member port of the amendment of which he had given notice,
should be given to Cork, but was called to order, the hon. namely, that Middlesex be entitled to return three knights
member for Finsbury being in possession of the house. of the shire instead of two. He contended that Middlesex
Mr. SCULLY—I move that the Chairman report pro- had strong claims to possess an additional representative
gress and ask leave to sit again that day six months. upon the ground of population and property. The member
Mr. MASSEY (the Chairman of Committees) called the for the University of Cambridge had suggested the other
hon. and learned member to order. night that Middlesex ought to be divided, and that each
Mr. DUNCOMBE then urged the claims of Burnley to division should return two members. Ho (Mr. Knightley)
an additional seat, on the ground of its increasing popu- cordially concurred in that view, and that it was a much
lation and wealth. more preferable plan to the one he was now proposing, and
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the Government did not bring if he thought it had the slightest chance of being sanctioned
forward this bill as a comprehensive measure of reform, but by the committee, he should very willingly have pro-
merely to enable the house to distribute certain seats in posed a motion to that effect. But under the circumstances
conformity with the act of Parliament. He denied, he begged, with great deference, to propose his amendment,
however, that the Present bill was an insignificant thinking that, upon the whole, it was a fair and reasonable
measure, as was shown by the anxiety of different places to recognition of the strong claims which Middlesex possessed.
get one of the vacant seats. He admitted the importance Lord ENFIELD expressed the pleasure he felt at being
of Burnley, but, considering that 13 seats had been appro- in a position to corroborate the observations which had
priated to South Lancashire and the North Riding, he fallen from the hon. member for North Warwicksbire (Mr.
thought giving the fourth member to Burnley would be Newdegate), that, after the West Riding of Yorkshire,
conferring too much on a limited district. Middlesex had the strongest claims to be represented by an
Mr. SCULLY then brought forward his motion, and additional member. There were seven counties in England
urged at considerable length the claims of the county of returning three members to Parliament, and the largest
Cork to one of the vacant seats on the ground of its extent, number of electors any one of these contained was 7,000,
population, and wealth. He pressed this proposal on the whereas Middlesex contained 15,000. There were 15 coun-
very ground that it would give one member more to Ire- ties returning four members, and each of these contained a
land, for which country alone Catholic members could by fewer number of electors than Middlesex, which had only
any possibility be returned. (Oh.) It might be said that two members. The annual value of property in Middlesex
Catholic constituencies elected Protestant members because was £1,616,400, and the rental was £1,819,566. He gave
they found Liberal candidates coming forward, and that, these statistics from Parliamentary returns, respecting the
though there were :liberal Protestants, there were no libe- accuracy of which, he presumed, there could be no doubt.
ral Catholics, and therefore a Protestant constituency could Mr. BLACKBURN here, with the leave of the house,
not select a Catholic member. But he denied this, for there withdrew his amendment.
were many Roman Catholics who were not ultramontane, Sir J. PAKINGTON hoped the committee would not
but were as liberal as Protestants, and the fact of the elec- come to a division under any erroneous impression. It
tion of Protestants by Catholic constituencies was the best had been said by the hon. member for North Warwickshire
proof of this liberality. Perhaps it was the fault of the that the question as regarded the West Riding of York-
Roman Catholics for not having courage to face the turbu- shire had already been disposed of, but it was necessary to
lence of the mob at an English election—(a laugh)—anti if state, in reply, that the hon. member for Knaresborough
his proposal were adopted, he should perhaps test the mat- had a notice of motion still standing on the paper to give a
ter by standing for Marylebone, on the express ground that seat to that Riding. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Pakington)
he was an Irish Roman Catholic, and wished to prove it to agreed with several previous speakers that the claims of
these rare Liberal Protestant constituencies in England. Middlesex were strong, and the best thing Government could
(A laugh.) He had cut out of a paper an extract from an have done was to give two members each to Yorkshire and
article written by a Roman Catholic writer, who he was Middlesex. His own intention was to vote against every
sure would not object to his (Mr. Scully's) mention of his proposal in order to support the motion of the hon. member
name. (Oh, oh, and divide.) It was said that eloquence for Knaresborough.
depended more on the audience than on the speaker, and it Mr. COLLINS said he would certainly raise the ques-
was certainly impossible for an Irishman to attempt do- tion whether the West Ridingof Yorkshireshould or should
quence in the house, for the moment he began to be carried not be divided. This had not as yet been decided. If it had
Away with his subject, some gentlemen whom he would not been, the Government might have been saved from the hu-
describe (for Irishmen were always civil) would interrupt initiation of a defeat. (Hear, and laughter.) If the West
him with rude remarks. (Much laughter.) He thought Riding were divided, there would be 21,000 electors in one
under the circumstances he had better sit down. (Hear, division, and 19,000 in the other. Yorkshire stood first on
and much laughter.) He should conclude by moving that the list for increased representation, and he and others felt
the blank be filled up with the words county of Cork, in- themselves fairly entitled to vote against any proposition
stead of Chelsea and Kensington. until justice was done to that county. (Hear.)
Mr. AYRTON moved that the Speaker report progress. Sir G. C. LEWIS said the first clause had been already
He made that motion because he thought something was agreed to, which assigned threememberseach to Lancashire
due to the house at the hands of Government, in order to and Yorkshire, and that if the hon. member who had just
extricate them from the state of bewilderment into which spoken wished to have the West Riding divided, that could
they had been thrown by what had occurred. (Hear, hear.) only be done by the election of a fourth member, and the
Four propositions had been made by different members, latter could only be elected after the present Parliament.
One hon. member had announced, but not moved, a propo. Mr. DISRAELI reminded the honourable member for
sition for giving the seat to the universities. Another had Knaresborough that he would have a right to submit his
shadowed forth a proposal, which he also abstained from proposition on the bringing up of the report. He (Mr.
proposing. The hon. member for Finsbury spoke in favour Disraeli) entirely objected to a plurality of votes for coun-
of a proposal which he did not uwve, though the speaker, ties. He thought two members quite enough to represent
by mistake, had put it to the house; and now the hon. and any place. The subject was discussed in a former session,
learned member for Cork had delivered a tremendous speech when there was a general feeling in favour of that prin-
in favour of a proposal which could not be put, (Laughter.) ciple. Members wer e not sent to that house to represent
But what was the position of Government? They them- the power of a place, but the opinion of a place. (Hear.)
selves had, at the former debate, proposed to report progress It was true that there were some precedents yielded by the
in order that they might have time to consider what to do. Reform Bill of 1832, which placed some counties in a very
He fully expected that her Majesty's Government would false position. He would support county representations
have stated to the house the course which the Government by means of division of counties. He would vote against
intended to do with respect to supplying this vacancy. the proposition of giving a third member for Middlesex,
Were the Government to be permitted to throw the bill on although not from any want of sympathy with the claims
the floor of the house, and say " scramble for the seat as of that county.
..
you best relay ?" This was not a proper mode of dealing Mr. SCULLY said that the county of Cork had a larger
with a great question involving grave constitutional consi- numoer of electors than the county of Middlesex, and that
been virtually rejected by the vote of the house the other
man should report progress,
derations. The principle of the Government had been the proposition to give another member to the latter had
negatived, and he Led made the suggestion that the chair-
, in order to afford the Govern•
night.
ment an opportunity of meting some distinct Atatement on Mr. HUMBERSTONE said that, as some allusion had
the subject. been made in the course of the debate to the county of
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the difficulty in which the Chester, he wished to observe that that county had only
committee found itself placed was due to the course of pros three boroughs in it, while boroughs in the county of Mid-
ceeding which had been taken on. a f
es. occasion, of • 4.lesex returned 12, 14, or, he believed, 16 members.
striking out certain words from the clause without meaning Mr, NE WDEGATE said that if a third member were
to substitute others for them. The consequences of cm rying given to Middlesex, the claims of labour in that county
that amendment had been to create a blank in the clause. would then be somewhat adequately represented.
Propositions were made by several hon. members to fill up
The committee divided—
that blank, and it was not in the power of the Government For Against it
to interfere. The motion before the committee was that Majority against it ..--50
Burnley be inserted in the bill. Her Majesty's Govern •
Lord pALMERSTON was sorry the house had not
ment would not give support to that amendment; they agreed to the amendment of the hen. member for North-
would prefer that the vacant seat should be given to Middle- amptonshire. He thought the best course now to pursue
sex, and when the time came for bringing forward that pro- would be to take the clause for giving a seat to Birkenhead,
position they would give it their support. (Hear, hear.) and then they could discuss the question afterwards of
Mr. DISRAELI considered that it was understood that giving four members to the West Riding, and whether that
her Majesty's Government were to consider their position riding should be divided, or should remain undivided. (Cries
with respect to this bill, and that when the house again of " Divide.").
went into committee, they would give some distinct state- Mr. COLLINS was quite ready to fall in with the noble
ment as to the course intended to be taken. The amendment lord's views.
carried on the last occasion for striking certain words out of Mr. .4.YRTON protested against four members being
the clause, was not an unusual nor an unprecedented one, given to the manufacturing interests, and called upon the
and the hon. member who submitted it had acted with per- committee to proceed upon some definite intelligible prin-
feet propriety. It was no doubt an inconvenient course to ciple.
the Government now that it had been carried. But if that
After a few words from Mr. BLACHURN and Mr. B.
course were inconvenient a week ago, it was no reason why
COCHRANE,
they should not now be prepared with some proposition Mr. DISRAELI said the decision to which the committee
which would prevent the house from suffering any inconve- had just arrived, had very much altered the character of
nience in consequence. The Government ought to come for- the measure, and it was of the utmost importance they
ward and guide the opinion of the house in the difficulty in should consider the changes now proposed in all their elm .
which it was placed. There was a question of policy in re- ratter. There was an amendment on the paper by the right
ference to this bill which was especially the province of a hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home De-
statesman and a cabinet of statesmen to deal with upon partment to increase and alter the boundaries of Birken-
broad and comprehensive grounds. He entreated the Go- -
head. He thought the committee should have the data be-
vernment to assume the responsibility of this bill, and to fore them before this amendment was introduced, that the
give it that consideration which its importance deserved, chairman should report progress, and that the Government
and which would come with that authority which would
command the attention of the house. If the Government arrangement that could he made would be to di should take time for consideration. He believed the best
were not prepared at the present moment with any proposi-vide the
West Riding and the county of Middlesex, and to give the
tion, he thought that the best course would be to adopt the four
proposition of the member for the Tower Hamlets for re- seats to those two counties. •He would not wish to
take any step which might appear nneourteous to the Go-
porting progress.
vernment, but he would suggest delay, and trusted that the
Lord PALMERSTON said that he did not complain of
the debate which had taken place on the former occasion.
gestion
noble lord would, as Leader of the house, accede to the sug-
.
Her Majesty's Government had chosen four places which, Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the Government adhered to
in their opinion, were the most fitting to return four rem- the clauses which had already been proposed by them.
hers. The house concurred with the Government with With regard to Birkenhead, he had given notice to add a
respect to three of them, but declined to accede to the pro- small township, but had since heard that the proposal was
position of giving a member to Chelsea and Kensington, opposed to local views on the subject, and he therefore
and there were then several propositions before the house should not press his proposal.
for appropriating that single seat. The Government had Mr. TOLLEMACHE advocated the claims of Birken-
taken time to consider which of those proposals they head on commercial grounds, as well as on the main ques-
thought was upon the whole the best for the house to tion of population. He believed that the duties of the pro-
adopt, and had come to the conclusion that the third mem- posed member for Birkenhead would be excessively severe.
her for Middlesex would be the best. If the committee Dir. SCULLY said that the house had already, on the
concurred with the Government in that opinion there grounds that the metropolis had ,already sufficient repre-
would be an end of the matter. (A. laugh.) He did not sentation, con) to a decision adverse to the proposal of the
think it was necessary to adjourn the debate in order to give Government, and on that ground the objectlea wee an oh-ong
the Government an opportunity of bringing in a great and
comprehensive measure for disposing of a single vacant seat against Lancashire as Yorkshire, and he begged to move
that the Chairman report progress.
in the house. (A laugh.) *
Col. W. PATTEN had re c 'eiste'r coranSunications from
Burnie
tar's' of the
y, complaining of the 'statement made by the Secre-
. Home Department, that thin
Place Was but 26,000, whereas'. been propouci inev
that Burnli 'Ai
able consideration. uneaag
felt they had every
been brought on at so population of that
it was at least 38,000. It had
ewedryhmeasure since the great Reform Bill
oxeye a member, and the inhabitants
claim upon the house for favour-
eoarrtlunately the case of Burnley had Mr. BENTINCK supported the amendment, but on
different grounds than those taken by the hon. and learned
gentleman. In England the rural &Aries were without
sufficient representation, and every seat given to a borough
was an act of gross spoliation. (A laugh.) Hon. members
might laugh, but he was quite prepared to prove the asser-
tion, and he wished to remind every rural representative
for Finsbury that he felt bus; that if he voted for the approprietion of any one of these
aperiod by the hon. member seats to an urban representation, they would be injuring
the constituencies which they represented.
as every other.member
who
hist.tje confidence in the result,
expiainbeedr to that town. (Hear.) Mr. NEWDEGATE admitted the principle that the
would vote against giving she rialeron motion on the subject
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBB
conietrithaenet the course which
vheatofththe Govern- counties of England were not properly represented, and he
1
he had followed was taken in
runt not giving any information. as to
vacancies
had ofd
intended trusted that the house would take that into consideration.
Without flattering rho noble lord the member for London,
he could only say that his bill of 1854 was the most com-
to do in the matter. The four piste bill which had been introduced into the house, and he
borough seats, and he thought it would bennfaarir°tt7 from had proposed to give 40 additional members to the English
majority of those seats to the country'representation. give
a counties.
Col. FRENCH suggested that some member of the Go- Sir G. LEWIS said that the question before the com-
mittee was that of reporting progress, but he could see no
coursead more unreasonable at that hour of the evening than
vernment should move that the vacant seat be given to mid_
world
drning the discussion, and he trusted that the house
dlesex, for the purpose of raising that question fairly before
agree to proceed with the debate till a more advanced
hour.
DUNNE could not admit the wish expressed by
the committee.
Sir G. GREY said that the question of Middlesex could
an honourable member that no more should be heard of
not be entertained until the other amendments were disposed
of. It was not possible for the Government to overrule the
Ireland. (Loud laughter.) He d •
orders and regulations of the house. Irish claims.
was no Place so badly represented as
that Ireland was
Mr. DISRAELI pointed out that the statement just made
by the right hon. baronet proved that there was nothing represented adequately, and he hopedenitlia
inconvenient in the course taken by the committee in strik- hear more of it, and he trusted that the It'sthhe house would
members, de-
ing out Chelsea and Kensington. spite of vituperation, would see the valueri of co-operation
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not complained that the and vote for no Government, whatever the question might '
course adopted was irregular; and when the motion for be—(a laugh)—which was not prepared to do justice to (re-
inserting Middlesex was brought forward, the Government land. He agreed that the landed interest was notproperly
would be prepared to give it their support. represented
in England, but still Ireland had claims which
Mr. BENTINCK complained that the waste of time ought not to be passed over.
which had been incurred in dealing with this question was After some further conversation,
due entirely to the conduct of the Government, who Sir J. SHELLEY said that the Government ought either
appeared to have been holding a cabinet council on the to withdraw the bill altogether, or else take further time
Treasury benches on the subject. (A laugh.) for consideration, He objected strongly to the scrambling
After some discussion on the order of proceeding, theway in which the question had been dealt with.
motion for reporting-
progress, and the amendment for giving Sir G. LEWIS could not admit that the
Burnley the +teat were withdrawn, and air. Kea eatenev trifled with the subject, for they had gone on a well-defined
was
the rocg to move that •
a third member be given to principle, and they did not ask for any time for considera.-
unby htbiliddlesex, when
Mr. BLACIO3I3 Hon.
RN rose to order
the amendment in was essentially
,on the ground that Mr. SLANEY thought that the question .
precedence On the paper, and
favour of the London University had an English one, and whatever ho might think of the claims
moved a portion only of that r of the Scotch or Irish members, he could I
i 1 t, ou the Pro-