The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-04 00:00:00

committees of supply and ways and means shall be fixed for
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and may also be ap-
pointed for any other day on which orders of the day shall
have precedence of notices of motions,' be read and re-
pealed, in lieu thereof to move,' 1. That the committees of
supply and ways and means shall be fixed for Monday,
Wednesday, and Friday, and also may be appointed for any
other day on which the house shall meet for despatch of
business.' That the standing order of the 2d of August,
1860, ' That, unless the house shall otherwise direct, all
orders of the day set down in the order-book for "Mondays,
Wednesdays, and Thursdays shall be disposed of before the
house will proceed upon any motions of which notices shall
have been given,' be read and repealed and in lieu thereof
to move, 2. That, unless the house shall otherwise direct,
all orders of the day set down in the order-book ;for Mon-
days, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays shall be dis-
posed of before the house will proceed upon any motions of
which notices shall have been given, the right being reserved
to her Majesty's Ministers of placing Government orders
at the head of the list on every order day except Wednes-
day.' 3. That the house at its rising on Friday do stand
adjourned until the following Monday, without any ques-
tion being put, unless the house shall otherwise resolve. 4.
That while the committee of supply and ways and means
are open, the first order of the day on Friday shall be either
supply or ways and means, and on that order being read,
the 'motion shall be made' That Mr. Speaker do now leave
the chair.' 5. That when a public bill has been com-
mitted to a select committee, and reported to the house, the
bill, as amended, shall be appointed for consideration on a
future day; when, unless the house shall order the bill
generally, or specially in respect of any particular clause
or clauses thereof, to be recommitted to a committee of the
whole house, the bill, after the consideration of the report,
may be ordered to be read a third time. That the said re-

solutions be standing orders of this house."
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the,first. resolution.
Mr. BENTINCK complained that the house had not
been afforded sufficient time to consider these resolutions,
which, so far from being of the nature described by the
noble lord at the head of the Government, introduced very

important alterations, according to his opinion. He begged,
therefore, to move " That this house, having considered the
proceedings and the report of the Select Committee on Bust •

tress of the tiouse, uois nuL ateui tcapuu,.... ..,, ....,.,..,,...
the proposed alterations in the standing orders, and in the

practice of the house."
Mr. KNIGHTLEY second the amendment.
In reply to Mr. WILLIAMS,
Lord PALMERSTON said that in his proposal it was
not intended to interfere with the right of bringing in mo-
tions or asking questions on those nights fixed for going
into supply.
Mr. PAULL moved, as an amendment, to add the fol-
lowing :—" Questions to be put on going into a Committee
of Supply or of Ways and Means, to a Minister re-
presenting any public department, shall be placed
consecutively on the notice paper, and shall be
put by rotation, and thereupon Mr. Speaker shall call on
such Minister to reply." He strongly opposed the altera-
tions, contained in these resolutions, and reminded hon.
members that they were there to represent grievances, and
to give full expression to the feelings of their constituents.
Mr.-HENLEY said that he for one would have been dis-
posed to have placed the greatest reliance in the report of
the select committee, but the last proposition of the noble
lot d, illustrated as it had been, had concluded his mind
against these resolutions. It was proposed that a bill which
had once gone before a select committee should not be dis-
cussed in a committee of the whole house. The noble lord's
illustration had convinced him of the danger of that propo-
sition—(hear)—and he objected to any proposal which would
shut out public bills from the consideration of the whole
house, as it would lead to placing them on the same footing
as private bills. It was quite a chapter of accidents how
the select committees were constituted, and a still greater
chapter of accidents how many of the members attended.
The public were not admitted to hear what took place, and
great alterations might be made in bills which the house
would have no power to deal with. He had the strongest
possible objection to these resolutions, and therefore he
should vote for the amendment of his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Norfolk. He feared the effect of these resolutions
would be to do what the noble lord said he had no intention
of doing—namely, to gag the house.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that, having had the honour of
presiding over the committee, he should have preferred re-
I maining silent during the present discussion, but he could
remove the apprehensions of the hon. member for North-
amptonshiA, as he was no longer able to address the house
at any considerable length. The hon. member for Norfolk
having, however, proposed to negative the resolutions he
must trouble the house with a few observations. The hon.
member complained that Government and the committee
had been wanting in courtesy to the independent members,
but he must say, in justice to his noble friend at the head of
the Government, at whose request he had taken the
chair of the committee, that his noble friend selected
him especially because he was an independent member,
and that therefore he would be the last to be
wanting in courtesy to the large body of members
who were bluailaLly- situated. Tho 01-sjoct tenth of the
committee and of the noble lord at the head of the Govern-
-1 ment was that no course should be taken which would in the
slightest degree interfere with the motions or speeches of
independent members. The hon. member for Norfolk com-
plained that the house had been taken by surprise by the pro-
ceedings of the committee, but so far from that being the case,
his right hon. friend the Home Secretary had in the first
instance drawn out a distinct outline of the propositions
which it was wished the committee should consider, and
those propositions, although considerably modified, formed
the basis of the recommendations of the committee.
Mr. BENTINCK explained that the surprise of which
he had complained was that they should be called on so soon
to decide on the report of the committee.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that even then there had been no
surprise, as 'the report had been in the hands of members
for above a week, and was neither voluminous nor accom-
panied by much evidence. The report might be verbose,
but he trusted it was clear and intelligible. The members
for Norfolk and St. Ives said that the first object they
should seek was to get certainty with respect to the time of
going into committee. He admitted that distinctly, but the
committee could not have approached the object without
proposing changes greater than any they had recommended,
and imposing limitations on hon. members previous to the
Speaker leaving the chair, which would be quite novel and
objectionable in principle. The hon member for Norfolk
said that independent members would have no opportunity
of making motions if this report were adopted, but he was
mistaken, and would find that by proposing an amendment
on the motion for supply there would be greater facilities
for discussion, and even for a division, if the latter was
deemed necessary. The next observation of his hon.
friend was that there was a great waste of time at the
commencement of the session. He entirely agreed with
his hon. friend, and that it was a great object to have
the business of the Government on the table at an
early period. But it was also an object that the esti-
mates should be passed before Easter, and therefore it
was why committees of supply took precedence of other
measures. Thinking that the resolutions were suitable, he
hoped the house would consent to discuss them seriatim,
and not reject them all because one was disapproved of by
certain hon. members.
Mr. ESTCOURT defended the resolutions, which he
said had been most carefully prepared, and would, in his
opinion, most effectually facilitate the business of the house.
The house divided—
For the amendment 9B
Against
Majority ..
—155
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY questioned whether it was wise
or prudent to take committees of supply and means upon
those days on which notices of motions have precedence
of orders of the day. Tuesday, to which he confined his
remarks, was a day reserved for members' notices, and as
he understood the object of the first resolution, it was to
take the committees of supply and ways and means on
Tuesday after the notices, with a view to prevent uncer-
tainty as to when supply and ways and means would be
tparkeepnee.
edßwuetuhlde bfaeillieevued that
urel, for
this purpose
eanae therethe
alteration
y
10 or 12 motions on the Tuesday's paper, ani if the com-
mittees of ways and means appeared upon the orders,
there could be no certainty of their being taken. The
experience of that day week, when the usual miscel-
laneous discussion of the Friday was disposedof earlier than
was expected, and the New Zealand debate, upon going into
committee of supply, was discussed and disposed of in a
house so thin that an attempt was made to count out, and
a great number of votes in supply were takenin three-fourths
of an hour, showed the inexpediency of fixing these com-
mittees on private members' nights. lie thought it was for
, the convenience of the house at least one daya week should
be free from committees of supply and ways and means.
Sir G. C. LEWIS observed that the resolutions before
the house were very unequal importance. The really mate-
rial propositions were the second, third, and fourth. There
were two others which had been proposed by the committee
because they thought these changes would upon the whole
be beneficial, but which they did not consider would have
any great practical effect, and these were the Ist and sth.
With regard to the Ist, it appeared to him the hon. baronet
altogether misunderstood the object with which it was pro-
Posed. At present the rule of the house was that the cone-
matte of supply should be fixed for Monday, Wednesday,
Thursday, and Friday, but it might not be fixed for Tues-
day. iq
0 —"ir the object of the resolution was to remove this
modification set
moved, the resolution• well be withdrawn, for the
exception were not re-
sin
—e exception ' and if that single
might as
rule with regard 's ' that
night for which it was finxte(llB:
committees of supply was this .
unless notice was given ' kon the
ggetoeted would entirely destroy its sense. The
on the paper. There would,ibto
stood as a mere formal der
on votes would be tl en
or
_er
ef
the session when, for the wawa few cases in the course t
f
Icpediting, business, it
might be convenient to fix the cot:l
day, and in such cases duo neetettee of supply for Tues..
would be given, that
members might not be taken by seirpri
Government to do this was the whole scopeToof enable thei
theit without
reshoo u•
tion, and he thought the house might. agree to
any alarm as to the consequences that might
ensue from
it.
Tuesday was not now exclusively confined to notices o-
t
tices had precedence, but it was competent for 0417 one
to fix orders for that day. With regard to the privilege of
Private members the "CO house" and the "counts out" upon I