The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-15 00:00:00

t 1 .•
THE SUN, _LONDON, - FRIDAY EVENING, _ MARCH 15, 1861.

been under the mark. This year a great change had been
made in the mode of preparing the estimates. In future
they would be drawn up by that branch of the War-office
which controlled the expenditure over the whole year ;
and the house might therefore look for much greater accu-
racy than had hitherto been attained. The report of the
commission on the subject of recruiting had recently been
laid upon the table. It was proposed, in accordance with
the view expressed by the commissioners, to make an al-
teration with regard to re-enlistments. Under the present
regulation it was actually as advantageous to men who had
served their ten years in India to take their discharge, come
home at the public expense, and re-enlist in this country.
It was proposed, however, to give great advantages to those
who would re-enlist in India. It was also proposed to re-
duce the bounty to £l, and to give the men in lieu of the
money, which they generally spent at a public-house, a
larger quantity of necessaries. They would certainly receive
another pair of boots, and probably other articles. With re-
gard to the food of the army, the system of slaughtering
beasts at Aldershot and at the Curragh had been much ex-
tended. The plan of allowing in the mess a quantity of
groceries for lid. had been introduced into the camps at
home, in the Mediterranean, and the Cape; and he hoped
these alterations would lead to what might be called the
uniform sixpenny stoppage. (Hear.) As to the clothing, it
was proposed to issue instead of a tunic lined with serge, a
waistcoat with sleeves, and a tunic with lining; so that the
tunic would be suitable for both hot and cold weather. The
attention of the authorities had been directed to the simpli-
fication of the patterns for clothing. Of course it was evi-
dent that if the cloth manufactured for the army were only
of a few qualities, they would get it better and cheaper than
if they had a greater variety. The clothing manufactories
at Pimlico were quite worthy of the inspection of any hon.
gentleman ; and it was remarkable with what rapidity
Colonel Hudson was enabled to complete any orders that
might be given him. (Hear.) The health of the army had
been exceedingly good during the past year. The mortality
calculated on by the noble lord at the head of the depart-
ment (Lord Herbert) had not been exceeded—in fact the
mortality for the year had been below the average. The
state of the army in China had been especially satisfactory.
For the first time a medical officer of rank, Staff-Surgeon
Brown, had been sent out for the purpose of making ar-
rangements for preserving the health of the troops ; and the
result had been thatthe mortalityin China had not exceeded
that at Aldershott or any other of the stations in this coun-
try. (Cheers.) There had been instituted a medical school
at Chatham which he believed would prove of great value
to the army. The different warrants which had been issued
within the last few years bad had the effect of drawing
into the service a much higher class of students; in fact
medical authority had observed that the army was attract..
ing to it the best young men that were to be found in
the country. (Hear, hear.) There had been a reduction in
some of the staff appointments at home. Two commands
which had hitherto been in the hands of lieutenant-generals
had been reduced, and would now be entrusted to major-
generals—namely, the inspector-general of infantry and the
commanding officer of the Shorncliffe division. One major-
general had been altogether reduced, and brigadier-generals
had been substituted for five other major-generals. Other
reductions had also been made, and the committee would
therefore see that no opportunity for introducing econo-
mical changes was let slip. These reductions, he might
say, had received the cordial concurrence of his Royal
Highness the Commander-in-Chief. (Hear, hear.) He (the
hon. gentleman) might mention, also, that those officers
who had passed through the Staff College, and had gone
through the different arms of the service, had been em-
ployed on different staff appointments. (Hear, hear.) The
committee and the country would see that as there
were now officers qualified for staff appointments by
passing through the college and submitting to a high
examination in the scientific branches of the service,
any little jealousy which might formerly have existed 'of
the number of staff officers would be very much removed ;
and that as there were now on the staff some of our most
scientific and best officers, it would be necessary to give
them some practical opportunity of learning their duties,
and of qualifying themselves for active service. Formerly
majors appointed to the staff were put upon half-pay, but it
was now proposed that they should be " seconded" in their
regiments. There was also another alteration which would
be satisfactory to a groat branch of the service—he meant
the artillery. Colonels of the Royal Artillery holding large
commands, such as Aldershott, would be placed by the side
of colonels on the staff with increased pay and allowances
than they now received. (Hear.) The plan recommended
by his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge last year, in
his evidence given before the commission for reorganising
the army, was to be carried out, and provision was made
for that purpose in the estimates. Every young gentleman
before he entered the army would pass a year at college,
where he would learn the practical elements of his pro-
fession. His education would be physical as well as mental,
so that when he joined his regiment he would be enabled
to enter on his duties at once instead. of having to learn his
drill. This plan would very much do away with the neces-
sity of stationing young officers at depots, which was con-
sidered so objectionable by so many military authorities.
(Loud cheers.) There was an increase in the estimates of
£38,300 for yeomanry cavalry, which arose from the deter-
mination that had been arrived at to call them out this year
for drill. All those who were at all conversant with the
subject would be aware that unless the corps were called
out from time to time it would be impossible to prevent
them from falling through. (Cheers.) There was an in-
crease of £27,000 for the volunteers, that increase arising
in the item of pay and allowances to adjutants. He was
happy to say that there were no symptoms of the velun-
keer movement flagging in this country. (Hear, hear.)
There had been an increase in the year of 507 corps, and of
about 40,000 men. (Cheers.) At the present time
there were 217 battalions, of which 130 were adminis-
trative battalions formed by the union of other battalions for
every purpose except finance. The object of these unions
was to enable them to enjoy the services of an adjutant.
Many of the corps had reached a very high state of effi-
ciency ; and ylome of them were quite qualified to act by the
side of regular troops. Amongst these none were more
prominent than a corps which was largely represented in
the house, that belonging to the Inns of Courts. (Cheers.)
In the course of the year there had been several splendid
reviews, which would be fresh in the recollection of hon.
members ; and the general offxers present had expressed
themselves much satisfied with the efficiency of the corps
present. (Cheers.) There was a small increase in the vote
for the War-office, amounting to £5,600. That simply
arose, with one exception, frost the annual increase of
salaries. The composition of the office since its formation
had occupied the unceasing atteation of the Government.
The intention was to place at the head of each department
a gentleman or an officer who was practically acquainted
with the business it had to transact, and who would be
brought in immediate contact with the Secretary of State,
who in turn would be responsible to Parliament. It was
proposed to appoint a director of ordnance, for whom a vote
would be taken this year. The accountant's department
would also be carefully revised, and the Accountant-
General would be made responsible for all the accounts.
(Hear.) He now ca.-no to the materiel, the charges for
which were comprised under vote 6, for manufacturing es-
tablishments,Note 8 for wages, and vote 11 for warlike stores.
These votes for the year 1860-1 amounted to £3,327,322,
and for the year 1861.2 to £3,549,7'23, showing thus an
increase of £133,396. The Ente'd rifle had been supplied
to all the troops at home and in some of the colonies. An
arm called the interchangeable rifle was also being intro-
duced. This was an Enfield mitsket, all the parts of which
were in every case of one pattern; so that after an action, in
which a great number of small arms were always broken,
new muskets might be made up of the uninjured portions
of different weapons. Mr. W. Richards's cavalry car-
tridge had been well reported of in India ; and preparations
were being made for another trial between the Whitworth
and the Enfield rifle. With regard to the Armstrong gun,
the right hon. gentleman (General Peel) was in error when

he supposed that the sum to be expended on this weapon
was only 1460,000. In point of fact the appliances of
these guns cost almost as much as the gun itself, and the
sum really to be expended would be £BOO,OOO. At the be-
ginning of the present year we had only 169 Armstrong
guns issued for service, but by the end of it 776 would have
been proved, making a total of 945. He thought that this
was not a bad year's work, especially when that year had
been to a great extent an experimental one, lie might
mention that the Narcissus, in which Sir B. Walker
had left for his station, was fully supplied with Armstrong
guns, and that provisions had been mule in the estimates
of this year for the supply of 1,057 Armstrong guns of
the following calibre-330 100-pounders, 280 40-
pounders, 197 25-pounders, 250 12-pounders. The price of
the Armstrong guns• had been much decreased, and the
manufacture of them at the Government works enabled

them to check the price at Elsecar. He would further
mark that the contractors had voluntarily come forward
and ieduced the prices, and the 40-pounders, which used
to cost £350, now cost £235. The other sizes were reduced
in proportion. Then asregarded the ammunition, that was
likewise much reduced in price, as the experimental part
had ended. With reference to the strength of the guns it
would be satisfactory to know that the difficulties which had
arisen bad been by constant experiments overcome, and he
considered that Sir William Armstrong was entitled to

great praise for the means which ho had so. successfully
adopted. A great deal had been said about the Arm-
strong guns which were sent to China, and which were

inferior to those which had since been made. Those guns
were hastily equipped, but the trials of those guns in China
were, upon the whole, eminently satisfactory, and there
was hardly any point which had been under the con-
sideration of the officers in China which had not really

been met before their reports were received at home. Ho
would also observe that the manner in which those guns
were worked did the greatest credit to the officers in com-

mand, as well as to the men, bo3ause it was quite a new ser-

vice to them, and one ;which required time to become

accustomed to. (Hear.) He did not like to refer to state-
ments which appeared in the public press regarding matters

of this kind, hu,there had been a statement inserted in the

"Mechanic's Magazine" which purported to be extracted
from an officer's report, and therefore it deserved some
slight notice. It must be evident to all professional men that
that periodical had received erronemis information, The Fe
port W4B not ftong gilt of of ofljoerki serving in CLiva,
The statel:Pht is effect was that thd*nott'ong etinsi

under the most favourable circumstances, could not be de-
pended upon, and were obliged to be withdrawn at the most
critical time of the action, and that several casualties oc-
curred to the men. The article also alleged that the old ser-
I vice guns had to be advanced in place of the Armstrong
12-pounders, which were pronounced generally inferior to
the French rifled gun for purposes of actual warfare. This
statement was said to have emanated from Major Hay, an
artillery officer in command of one of these batteries. Now,
the only foundation for such an allegation was, that occa-
sionally part of the lead stripped from the shells when fired.
No casualty occurred from this cause, but it has reported
that inconveniences might arise in firing over the heads of
our troops. There was nut the slightest difficulty, however,
in meeting that defect, either by the use of zinc or by fixing
the lead to the shell in a kind of mortice. What Major
Hay really said was that, " On all occasions when required
the guns, their screws, &c., were as clean, and in as good
working order, as when in England. . . . Their pre-
cision of fire, and the actual results obtained by them, can-
not for a moment be d misted. They were the admiration
of all." And, again, "As compared with our present guns
the superiority of the Armstrong guns is manifest ;" to
which he added that they were "superior to the French
guns in accuracy and rapidity of fire." Captain Milward
who was in charge of another battery, writing after the
disembarcation at Peh--taug,:reported all the guns to be "in
excellent preservation and fit for work," and added, "this is
the Bth time the battery has been embarked or landed since
leaving England, each time in boats, mounted and dis-
mounted, never once landed at a wharf, and at Odin -bay
landed in a surf. During the whole of these operations no
serious damage has occurred to guns or carriages." In
regard to the use,of guns in actual service, the the same
officer wrote :
" The battery in action at Singho, on the 11th of August,
fired an average of 18 rounds per gun, at 1,200 and 450
yards, besides two shells at 2,100, all with the most excellent
effect. The concussion fuzes acted admirably; the practice
was entirely against cavalry in open order, and quite pre-
vented their forming for a charge, which they attempted
more than once. The effect of the shells was all that could
be desired; the two fired at 2,100 yards dispersing a large
body of cavalry instantly."
And, again,—
" At the capture of the Peiho Forts (Aug. 21) the guns
and carriages stood the firing, which was rapid and continu-
ous, very well indeed. . . On the whole I can safely re-
port that little alteration for the better can be made in the
gun, which has acted in every respect up to my anticipa-
tions, both in travelling and firing."
(Hear, hear.) It was true that on two or three occasions
the vent pieces had been blown out. That was a serious de-
fect, but it did not prevent the gun continuing firing, and
this defect hadsince been remedied by Sir W. Armstrong in
the most simple manner, so that it was now rendered impos-
sible for the future. (Hear.) The only other defect of any
consequence arose frsm the difficulty of manufacturing pro-
per fuzes, but this also had been satisfactorily met. (Hear.)
In point of strength the Armstrong gun had stood what he
believed was a perfectly unique test. A 12-pounder gun
was fired 200 times according to the following programme :
—lO rounds with service charge of I#lb. of powder, and sin-
gle service shot of 121 b. ; 10 rounds with same charge and a
projectile equal to two service shot, 10 rounds same charge
and a projectile equal to three service shot; and so on,
gradually increasing up to 100 rounds, the last 10 of which
were fired with a projectile equal to 10 service shot, and of
such a length as to protrude several inches beyond the
muzzle. The second hundred rounds were fired with double
charges of powder, and with projectiles increasing as before,
until they reached 10 times the weight of the service shot,
and again extended beyond the muzzle of the gun. The
gun remained uninjured to the last, and would be issued for
service. (Hear, hear.) A 40-pounder of the strengthened
pattern had also been tested in a similar manner, and had
endured without injury 100 rounds fired with service
charges, and :projectiles progressively increasing in weight
from 401 b. to 4001 b., the latter forming solid cylinders,
which filled the bore to within three inches of the muzzle.
These were tests which had never been stood by any gun
before, and the Ordnance Select Committee were, therefore,
right in saying, " It may be safely assumed, from the proof,
that the Armstrong 12-pounder possesses a degree of
strength far beyond any requirement of the service, and
that it is practically impossible to burst it by fair means."
It had been stated that a 100-pounder Armstrong gun that
was tried at Portsmouth had turned out a failure ; but this
was not correct ; the gun was not sent to Portsmouth to be
fired, as it had been somewhat injured by a shell bursting
at its mouth ; but it so happened that it was fired, but it
was not as a trial. A similar thing happened to a 100-
pounder Armstrong gun at Shoeburyness, that had been
sent down without the proper ring round it. A rather ex-
traordinary experiment had been recently made as to the
effect of shot upon the Armstrong gun. A 9-pounder can-
non was brought with 20 yards of an Armstrong gun and
an ordinary brass field-piece, and fired on them. The
Armstrong gun was smashed and the brass piece rendered
unserviceable. But as no batteries of artillery were ever
known to come within 20 yards of each other the experi-
ment
had no practical value ; and as they were obliged to
go within 20 yards of the Armstrong gun to hit it at all
it showed that it was very difficult to do so. An experi-
ment that had been made with an Armstrong gun and a
smooth-bore cannon against two Martello towers on the
Sussex coast had proved very satisfactory. The guns were
placed at the same distance against two Martello towers
of exactly the same construction, the smooth-bore piece
having the advantage in the weight of its shot. From the
Armstrong gun 170 rounds were fired, from the smooth
bore 271. But in the tower against which the latter
was fired no practicable breach was made, but the wall
of the tower exposed to the fire of the Armstrong
gun was reduced to a complete ruin. He did not
think he had anything more to state with respect
to these pieces; but their adoption had added largely
to the vote for warlike stores and armaments. With
respect to the other stores, there had been a very large in-
crease of shot and shell, and it had been placed ready for
issue if it should be required for the service of the navy.
The cost of these guns and projectiles was of course very
large, and that was in addition to the increased pay of the
men, and the extra provisions made for their comforts, me-
dical accommodation, and other things. These expenses had
greatly increased during the past eight years. In 1852, 32-
pounders were used, then 68-pounders, which cost double
the price, and then came the Armstrongs, which cost twice
as much as them. As regarded muskets, the old Brown Bess
cost 305., while the Enfield cost from 555. to 60s. There
were not only more expensive arms in all branches of the
service, but the constant changes in them had been very
costly. After the whole of the army had been supplied
with the new rifle, he hoped the expenses would be gradu-
ally diminished. It must, however, be remembered, that so
long as other countries made improvements ill arms for
warfare, this country must keep alongside with them. With
regard to the other votes, he would first observe that the
one for fortifications this year was estimated at £390,000,
being a nominal decrease of £47,000, the works for the pre-
sent year being very small. It would be more convenient to
refer to them when the vote came on for discussion. The
Secretary of State was of opinion that the expenses for forti-
fications should be kept as low as possible—merely obtaining
possession of the land for the present. The committee would
observe that there was a reduction in the estimates of £12,000
for barracks. On the other hand there was an estimate for
works for testing the Armstrong guns at Elsecar, for a new
school of gunnery at Shoeburyness, and one in Lancashire,
which would be a great convenience to the volunteers in
the north of England. The improvements which bad been
introduced in hospitals would be continued, and means
would be taken to give more amusement to soldiers in camp
and where large numbers were collected together. With
regard to the cost of the Ordnance survey, it was the inten-
tion of the Government to ask for the appointment of a com-
mittee to consider its progress, and in the meantime the
vote for this year would be diminished. He would now
read a few extracts from a report of some artillery officers
who were sent abroad to inquire into the condition of
foreign armies. They stated that although a few altera-
tions were in their opinion required in our military system,
the condition of foreign soldiers was very inferior to that of
our own. Voluntary enlistment, for instance, they regarded
as less burdensome than a conscription ; and in addition to
this our soldiers were better clothed and better fed than the
soldiers of either France, Sardinia, Austria, Russia, or
Prussia. He would now come to the question of the nen

effective ♦otes. The commission of last session drew atten

tion very forcibly to the inadequate sum paid by the Indian
Government to meet the dead weight charges borne by the
imperial exchequer. The commission was composed of ofd

cers selected by the Secretary for War, the Secretary for
India, and the Treasury. They had recommended that
instead of the £50,000 per annum now paid by the Indian
Government, £3 10s. per man per annum should in future
be paid by that Government into the imperial exchequer.
That would supply a sum of £200,000 per annum in aid of

tho imperial exchequer, which would not be an inadequate
sum. To that proposition the Secretary of State for India

in Council had agreed, and he believed it would be the duty
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Secretary to

the Treasury to introduce a bill in the course of the session

to give effect to that purpose. It was also proposed that in
order to get rid of the complicated accounts between the
India-office and the War-office, of which the right hon.

gentleman had justly complained, £lO per man should be

charged in lieu of various payments in detail. This would

save an enormous amount of unnecessary correspondence
and labour. This plan had also boon accepted by the Secre-
tary of State for India in Council. Having gone through the

estimates to the best of his ability, ho would now coke to
general results. The not decrease of £185,795 was not the

real decrease upon thes estimates. The real decrease was more.
In addition to the £185,795 must be taken a sum of £500,000,
the Indian credit upon the clothing and store notes. That

made a decrease of .£685,795. On the other hand, as the bon.

gentleman had pointed out, there is a sum of £390,000 for
fortifications, which is to be deducted. That made the real

decrease £295,795, or in round numbers £300,000. Having
concluded the observations he had to make, he had only to
state further that the estimates had been framed with every

regard to economy, consistently with the efficiency of the
public service. He did not think the house would consent

to a smaller number being on the military establishment
than was provided by the estimates) nor did he think that
the house would consider that the arming of the navy with,
the improved ordnance qhould be delayed a moment longq
than was ueeessary 0 arm the ships as perfectly Gs possible.
An the whole, ho thought the committee would see that the

estimate was not largerthan under the present ciycwstance s

_ --
of the empire it was necessary for this house to provide for
the military service of 1861-2. (The hon. gentleman was
cheered by both sides of the house.)
Col. DUNNE thought the hon. gentleman had injudi-
ciously mixed up in one account the men engaged in India
and those on the home service. The hon. gentleman asked
for £40,000 for levy men for recruits. Each recruit required
about £7 9s. before he joined his regiment; but if he re-
quired £lO the whole number would not cost more than
£20,000. Either the hon. gentleman wanted too much
money for recruiting, or he had too little for the payment
of the troops. He (Col. Dunne) had looked through the
estimates, and notwithstanding all the prejudices of his
profession in favour of giving the army all that they were
entitled to, he thought there was much room for reduction,
especially in the staff and civil departments. The vote of
£13,000 last year for supernumerary regiments had been in••
creased this year to £15,000. He saw no reason for this. He
thought the depot battalions should be reduced,and that there
should be no stoppages horn the pay of soldiers for hospital
expenses, but that the soldiers should be made certain as to
the exact amount of his pay under all circumstances.
These stoppages led to the multiplication of accounts, and
induced much unnecessary expense. There was in the esti-
mates an item of £42,000 for the movement of troops. He
thought this was an enormous amount, considering that we
had our camps now, and that comparatively few move-
ments took place. As compared with the general expendi-
ture of our army in 1815, when we had to provide for up-
wards of 300,000 men, he thought the estimates were alto-
gether excessive. He had no objection to inspectors of
cavalry or directors of artillery, but he could not see the use
of a general inspector of the guards. (Hear, hear.) As
Lord Rokeby had retired with the perfect good will of every
one, it was high time that that office should be abolished.
Then there was the inspector of infantry, an office now
held by a distinguished officer, and one loved by the whole
army, but if depots were done away with, that officer would
not be required. If generals of districts could not inspect
a regiment, they were not competent for their present situ-
ation. (Hear.) Therefore, ho felt that the staff should be
reduced. These were some of his preliminary objections to
these estimates. He hoped the Government would lay upon
the table of the house what it paid for the clothing of the
army. He believed that the Government really knew no-
thing whatever on this part of the subject. With respect to
the Armstrong guns, he could not understand exactly what
was the explanation that was made regarding this arm. He
wished also to know what had become of the rifles which
had been purchased for the army in 1852-53.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that there was not a country in
the world that was making an attack upon us, and yet
our military force exceeded the force of France. (Oh, oh,
and hear.) He was justified in saying this, for our military
force, including the Irish constabulary, amounted to
300,000 men, and deducting the gendarmes and the army in
Algeria, China, and other places, the French army at home
did not exceed 300,000 men; and our ships and guns were
double those of the French. It was now estimated that
the expense of the army for this year of peace would be
£14,600,000, and this did not include the expense of the
militia. In 1830 the estimate for the army, in the Duke of
W ellington's Administration, was £7,900,000 ; under Earl
Grey the expense of the army was £8,110,000 ; under Lord
Melbourne it was £7,800,000, while under the administra-
tion of the present Foreign Secretary, in 1851, it was
£8,823,000. The average for these seven years was
£6,600,000 a year. What then was the cause of this in-
crease in the estimates at a period like the present. Some
explanation was necessary, and he hoped it would be given.
The hon. gentleman after complimenting the volunteers for
coming forward in the present emergency, again expressed
his surprise at the increase in our army expenditure.
Colonel DICKSON said that every year the hon. mem-
ber for Lambeth seemed to extend his views with regard
to the amount of our army. Could anything be more ex-
traordinary than his statement that our army was equal to
that of France ? He (Colonel Dickson) was for an efficient
army, but he thought it ought to be maintained at the
lowest possible rate consistent with its efficiency. He could
see no reason whatever why, in 1853-1854, when on the eve
of a Russian war, the expenditure for 119,000 men should
be nine millions, and for 146,000 in the present year the
enormous sum of fourteen millions. That was an expendi-
ture beyond all proportion, and he must say was totally
unwarranted. The expenses of material were in the same
proportion, while those of the Commander-in• Chief's
offices exceeded that of 4854 by £BO,OOO. The expense of
each soldier in the present year was calculated at £lOO
a-head, while in 1854 it was but £75, and he wished to
know why it was there was such an enormous difference.
He had, however, to express a hope that the cavalry would
not be reduced, because a cavalry soldier was a very ex.
pensive article, and should not be lightly done away with.
Hon. members opposite were calling out for reform, but
certainly if they continued voting these enormous sums of
money some change must take place in the constitution of
that house.
Mr. BARING, in reply, said there was no objection
whatever to the return of the clothing, asked by the gal-
lant member for Queen's County ; and as to what had
been said by the hon. and gallant member for Limerick,
he was surprised to find he was opposed to so excellent
an establishment as the Staff College for young officers.
He could assure him that he himself examined the dif-
ference between the estimates in 1853 and 1854, and those
of the present year. There were, in the first place, 24,000
men more this year, and between their pay, warlike stores,
and other necessaries, the additional expense on these
articles alone would be £2,200,000. There was a large
increase of £146,000 in the personnel of the army, and of
£580,000 for previsions. That, however, did not arise
from extravagance, but represented so much improvement
in the condition of the soldiers, representing the difference
between stoppages of 41d. instead of 6d. At a time when
the pay of agricultural labourers was increasing, if
they did not give some corresponding benefit to the soldier,
what would become of voluntary enlistment ? In conclu-
sion he had only to express his hope that the house would
be willing to give its ready attention to these estimates,
in order that they might be proceeded with without any
unnecessary delay, and he desired to have the vote moved
agreed to that night.
Mr. HENLEY said the hon. gentleman the Under-
Secretary for War said they had no right to look back to
what the expenses for the army were a few years ago ; but
the hon. member, lumping one branch of the service with
another, contrived to throw dust in the eyes of the country.
The increased expense was great, and they had in that
way a difference of nearly £5,000,000 to account for. The
increase of men was by no means more than it ought to
be; indeed, he did not think they had one man too
many; tut what he complained of was the vastly in-
creased expense they were year after year entering
into; and this they might depend upon—that if
they went on in that way, the country would cry
out against it, and call upon the house to reduce the
number of men. That was what he was afraid
of. Ho apprehended that the country would get sick of
it. Looking through the estimates, he found in almost
every item an increased expense. The only Ram in
which he saw a saving, was that of fortifications ; but he
saw, that while the expenses increased 60 per cent., the
efficiency of the men increased only 21 or 22 per cent.
Lord PALMERSTON was glad to find hon. and gallant
members agree that the number of men was not greater
than the interests of the country demanded. (Hear, hear.)
Well, then, this they understood, that a very great number
of men covered in a great degree the aggregate expense.
Then, again, every one he thought was agreed that as the
improvements in the scientific branches of gunnery in-
creased, so also must the expenses increase in proportion—
that was to say, great improvements in cannon and muskets,
and the consequent charges for material, were in them-
selves alone a cause of very great and necessary expense.
He thought, then, that they would find the great bulk
of the expense was, as he said, owing partly to the
great increase in the number of men, and partly to the
improvements in' the implements of war. besides that,
hon. gentlemen ought to boar in mind that not many ses
sions had passed lately in which hon. members had nol

proposed changes, no doubt good in themselves, but which
were expensive. Ono member, for instance, proposed an
improvement in the barrack accommodation ; another
said the clothing of the army was inferior in quality, and
ought to be improved ; another member found fault with
the hospitals as not keeping pace with the improved sana-
tory science of the day. (Hear, hear.) But all these
changes, good though they might be, tended to increase
the estimates, although no doubt the additional charges
had been well and properly incurred. But they had been
told that the increase in the civil charges for the manage-
ment of the army had of late also been most unnecessarily
and extravagantly increased. Upon that point he would
simply say that when they came to that portion of the esti-
mates it would be perfectly competent for tho committee to
deal with it, and if extravagance could be shown to reduce
the estimate. But the amalgamation of the different depart-
ments formerly existing under separate heads, and the
abolition of the divided authority, which was so great an
evil, had, in his opinion, largely contributed to the efficiency
of the public service, and any temporary increase, while in
a state of transition, ought to be acquiesced in, when it was
known that the military service of the country was never in
a more efficient state than it was at present.

Mr. MONSELL said the noble lord had not answered
the real complaint, namely, the constant and alarming in-
crease in the amount of these changes, and for the sake
of the service itself they ought to guard against the inevita-
ble reaction which must come. (Hear, hear) He would
admit that the number of men to be voted this year might
be necessary, but for many years this had been going on,
especially in the manufacturing departments. There must

be now an enormous accumulation of these means at Wool-
wich after the enormous expenditure of past years for the
purpose of turning out the weapons required, and yet they
were called upon to vote £200,000 or £260,000 more for
these establishments. They ought to know what was the
actual state of these establishments in order to prevent a
revulsion of feeling which would leave them without money
for those purposes. (Hear.)
Vote agreed t%

A. vote of £146,014 men was then proposed.
Col, DUNNE having said a few words, the vote for the
number of men was agreed to.
£1,780,000 pay and allowances.
Col. DUNNE moved that the committee report progress.
Lord PALMERSTON hoped that the house would not

vote the men and then refuse their pay and allowances. H
should certainly take the sense of the house on this vote.
The house divided—

For reporting. progress
Against it
Major S. KNOX moved to reduce the vote by £11,337
for the depot battalions.

Mr. BARING said it was' right to call attention to the
depot battalions, but they formed part of the next vote.
Col. KNOX then moved that the vote be reduced by
£50,000 for medical staff and hospital charges.
Mr. BARING said that both those items would also
form part of aaother vote. (Laughter.)
Colonel DIC KS ON observed that what was taking place
showed the inexpediency of going on with the committee.
Besides ho had read the noble viscount's speech the other
night, in which he promised only to take the number of men.
Mr. A. SMITH thought the Government ought not to
proceed further to-night. This was a large estimate of
£4,000,000 and upwards, and it ought to be divided into
several parts.

Lord PALMERSTON said he should be very unwilling
to ask the committee to decide at once on a matter which
might be open to discussion. Suppose they took a vote on
account of one-half. The money was much wanted.

Mr. CHILDERS said there was a large addition to the
medical staff; and there were other appointments to which
many hon. members objected; and if they agreed to the
vote, it might prevent them discussing the items.
Mr. BARING said there would be no new appointments
made before the full vote was agreed to.
The sum of £3,000,000 was agreed to on account, the
chairman reported progress, and the house resumed.
THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Lord PALMERSTON said it might be convenient to
state that the Government proposed to take the Bankruptcy
Bill first on Monday evening, and if that should be over
about 10 o'clock, they would go on with the Navy Esti-
mates.

Mr. COLLINS asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department when the Appropriation of Seats' Bill
would come on.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said he should not bring on that Bill
before Easter.
Mr. G. HARDY wished to know when the Highways
Bill would be brought on.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he hoped on Monday evening
after the Bankruptcy Bill.

Mr. MOWBRAY asked when the Local Government
Bill would be proceeded with.

Mr. CLIVE said ha proposed to postpone it to the 14th
of May.

WAYS AND MEANS.
The report of the committee on ways and means was
brought up.

THE EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.

RED SEA AND INDIAN TELEGRAPH BILL.
This bill was read a third timo.

LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES.
The house having resolved into committee,
Sir G. C. LEWIS moved a resolution on which to
found a bill for the purpose of continuing for 10 years the
coal duties and the port duties on wine now levied by
the officers of the Corporation of London. The coal
duties consisted of a 4d. duty, which the corpo-
ration considered part of the City estate; an Bd. duty
which had been appropriated under an Act of Parliament,
and the,proceeds applied by direction of the First Commis-
sioners of Works, and which would shortly expire; and
another duty of id., which would also shortly expire. He
proposed to continue the duties for 10 years—the proceeds
of the 9d. tax to be paid into a fund to be devoted to me•
tropolitan improvements—the purposes to be hereafter
defined by Parliament, but more especially with reference
to a recommendation of a committee of last session which
sat on the embankment of the Thames. These duties were
at present levied over 20 miles round a central point in the
metropolis ; but he proposed to confine the area to the
metropolitan police district.
Mr. AYRTON complained that no notice had been
given of the nature of the resolutions.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he had only followed the univer-
sal practice in regard to such resolutions.
The resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. CAIRD obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend
the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Ordinary and Small Debt
Courts in Scotland.
Mr. BRADY obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend
the time given to the clerks of the peace of counties in Ire-
land for the publishing of the lists of voters objected to,
under the act of the 13th and 14th years of Victoria, chap.
69, sections 27 and 37.
Sir G. LEWIS obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the law relating tc elections of members of Parliament, and
a bill to amend the law relating to industrial schools.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a bill
for the improvement, regulation, and protection of the
salmon fisheries in Scotland, and on the coasts of ,the Sol-
way Firth, and in the mouth or entrance of the river Tweed.
Mr. HUTT obtained leave to bring in a bill to enable
the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to execute
certain works for the service of such hospital.
The bills were severally brought in and read a first time.
The house adjourned at one o'clock.

PAIRS ON MR. LOQK KING'S MOTION.

FOR.
AGAINST.
Lord R. Clinton with Sir C. Burrell
Mr. Pr se
Hon. J. A. Ponsonby „ Mr. Goddard
Mr. Hodgkinson „ Mr. Jolliffe
Sir H. T. Davie „ Mr. Kendall
Sir J. Matheson
Mr. M. Dunne
lion. J. Monson
Lord Hartington „ Col. Bathurst
Col. Stuart (Cardiff) „ Mr. Lort Phillips
lion. W. 0. Stanley „ Major Sibthorp
Col. Tynte
Mr: Hodgson „ Hon. Henry Wyndham
Mr. Locke
„
Sergeant Kinglake Sir Baldwin Leighton
M. Mellor
Mr. Greenwood
~ Mr. Hope Johnstone
Mr. Divett ......... „ Sir Massey Lopes
11r. Ald. Copeland
Mr. Buchanan
Hon. C. Fitzwilliam „ Mr. Maxwell Close
Mr. Marsh „ Lord Pevensey
lion G. Denman „ Mr. Bovill
Mr. Merry „ Mr. Stirling
Mr. Collier „ Mr. Montague Smith
Mr, Herbert
Mr. Redmond
~
Mr. Hugh Taylor „ Mr. Walter Long

The German journals relate that, at a grand rifle
match a few days back at Prutz, in the Tyrol, an image,
intended to represent M. de Vincke, the Prussian deputy,
was placed on a mark, with beneath it his name and the
words, " Death to all bad Germans."

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BIRTHS.
MAUNSELL.—On the 13th inst., at 12, Lower Belgrave-st.,
Eaton-square, the wife of Commander Eyre Matumell,
R.N., of a daughter.
SWERIDAN.—On the 13th inst., at Bellefield House, Ful-
ham, the wife of H. B. Sheridan, Esq., M.P., of a
daughter.
VALLETORT.—On the 14th inst., at 23, Wilton-crescent,
the Lady Katharine Valletort, of a daughter.