The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-11 00:00:00

FICTITIOUS SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

Sir F. BARING moved that the house go into committee
on this bill, which made it a misdemeanour to call banks
" savings banks"- which were not under the law of savings
banks.

Mr. W. FOSTER objected to the bill, on the ground
that it would lead to an impression that Government gua-
ranteed the depositors in savings banks, which was not the
case. He thought they ought to postpone further legisla-
tion on the subject, especially as it would interfere with a
great many works which were at present doing a great deal
of good. He should move as an amendment that the house
go into committee that day three_months.
Mr. BAINES seconded the amendment. He knew a
large number of banks connected with Sunday-schools,
managed by pions and benevolent persons, and these would
be seriously interfered with. It was said that those would
not be interfered with, so long as they did not use the
word "savings," but that was the great charm of these
banks.

Mr. HENLEY opposed the bill on the same ground.
Every child knew the meaning of the word " savings,"
and he could find no word that could be substituted for it.

Mr. BAXTER said that there were in Scotland many
savings banks conducted by gentlemen merely for the good
of the working classes, and for no purposes of profit. The
guarantee to the depositors was excellent, and he did not
see any reason to interfere with them by such a bill as this.
Mr. HUB BARD considered that this bill was calculated
to protect those who were not able to protect them-
selves. The hon. gentleman quoted statistics connected
with several existing institutions with a view to show that
Parliamentary interference was absolutely necessary for the
protection of the public.

Mr. DENT said that in the town he represented (Sear-
borough) there were 18,000 inhabitants, out of which there
were 11,000 depositors in savings banks, 1,000 of whom
were connected with schools. The deposits did not amount
to more than £5OO, but the banks were admirably con-
ducted. and he should be sorry to see them interfered with.
Sir G. LEWIS considered that the bill went a very long
way in penal legislation. He thought some qualification
might be put in, showing that banks were not in connection
with the Government, which woald remove objections to
the bill, but he could not approve a bill which visited heavy
penalties upon persons who might have no. fraudulent in-
tentions.

After some further discussion the bill was withdrawn.
CHURCH RATES LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. HUBB ARD spoke on the order for the second reading
of this bill. He remarked that the only measure which had
received any favour in that house was one for the total abo-
lition of church rates, but the majorities in favour of that
bill had so diminished that both parties might now
be said to be on an equality. It must be re-
membered that the Church of England was the
National Church, but that the greatest toleration should
be allowed to all who differed from its doctrines
or discipline. No doubt the abolition bill was the
first of a series of attacks upon the National Church,
and which, if they had succeeded, would have
prevented members of that Church from regulating
their own affairs by taxing themselves. He was willing
to exempt Dissenters from such taxation, and that object the
bill he now proposed would secure. There were four
main points in the bill.-1. The question what was
the legitimate purpose of a church rate. 2. To provide
that modern ecclesiastical districts should be formed
into parishes so far as church rates were
concerned. 3. To transfer all litigation from the ecclesiastical
courts to the quarter sessions, the county courts, or the su-
perior courts. 4. To assimilate the manner in which church
rates were collected to the mode in which the poor rates were
raised, A clause was also introduced which would exempt
a person from the payment of church rates, who declared
himself a Nonconformist. He was afraid that ho should
have no chance of carrying the bill through this session,
and he should therefore withdraw H, bill. (Mar, hear.)
J.fir TRELA.AVNY hoped that no other bill would be
brought in this year on the subject of church rates.

Mr. B. STANHOPE thought that if any plan of
exemption were agreed to, it should be one that did not
draw any hard, line of demarcation between Churchmen
and Dissenters.

Sir J. TRELAWNY said that Churchmen had many
opinions amongst themselves on the subject of church
rates. He hoped that they would be able to agree upon
some definite plan before next session.

Mr. DUN do MB E said there was no intention of Dissen-
ters out of doors to compromise this question of church
rates. It was only in that house that compromise was
talked about. Now that the question had been shelved, the
Nonconformists would have to commence the struggle
anew, and he had no doubt that ere long they would be
successful.

Sir J. PAKINGTON thought the time had arrived when
they ought to decide upon some amicable settlement of this
long disputed question. The present law of church rates
was not satisfactory to the Church ; and for the interests of
the Church itself compromise of some sort was necessary.
Mr. HEYGATE thought the bill proposed by Mr. Cross
was the only really conciliatory measure that had been
brought before the house, and he hoped it would not suffer
from being introduced so late in the session. -
Mr. CONINGHAM believed that any compromise was
out of the question, and that nothing but total abolition
would satisfy the onconformists.

Sir C. DOUGLAS said that though he was in favour
of abolition of church rates, he should not be indisposed to
listen to terms of compromise.
The bill was then withdrawn.
NEW MEMBER.
Colonel LUKE WHITE took the oaths and his seat for
Longford, in the room of Colonel Henry White, resigned.
He was introduced by Colonel French and Mr. Lefroy.
VACCINATION BILL.
On the order for going into committee on this bill,
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that the bill was not only inju-
rious in itself but it involved a gross breach of faith. Two
years ago it was agreed that compulsory legislation upon
this point should be postponed until there had been a
Parliamentary investigation, which had not taken place.
Medical men differed on the subject of vaccination, and if a
committee were appointed, many men of the highest medi-
cal reputation would be prepared to come forward and show
that it was useless. Others considered that it was only use-
ful for seven years, while others thought that it might be
useful so long as it was not compulsory. He suggested
that the bill should be withdrawn and a full inquiry insti-
tuted into the whole matter. He moved, as an amendment,
that the house resolve itself into committee that day three
months.

Mr. CONINGHAM seconded the amendment.
Mr. LO WE said that compulsory vaccination was now
the law of the land, but there was a defect in the act which
did not enable the parties concerned to 'sue for penalties.
The right hon. gentleman entered into a variety of statistics
to show the usefulness of vaccination. In 18.57, 539 letters
were sent out by his office to gentlemen of the highest re-
putation in medicine, to ascertain from them whether their
opinions were in favour of vaccination, and 537 of them
answered in the affirmative. Any inquiry of the house of
Commons would, under such circumstances, be a shameful
waste of time. All the present bill proposed was that the
Poor Law authorities should be allowed to prosecute when
necessary under this act, and that official persons should be
entitled to their expenses.
Mr. MITFORD supported the bill, considering that the
present system was inefficacious and inoperative.
Mr. CONINGHAM considered that Parliament had no
right to interfere in the manner proposed.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the house went into committee on the bill.
Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2, which provided that the charges should be
borne by the parish,
Mr. AYItTON moved as an amendment that the charge
should be borne by the union.
The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 44
Against it
Majority —26

The amendment was rejected.
Mr. HASSARD asked if the act extended to Ireland.
Mr. LO WE replied it did not.
Mr. HENLEY objected to rewards being given to pub-
lic informers. He moved an amendment to prevent such
a practice.
The amendment was agreed to.

The other clauses of the bill were agreed to, with a few
verbal amendments, and the Chairman reported progress.
METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT ACT

AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. TITE moved the second reading of this bill.
Mr. LOCKE rose to order. He said he was on a former
occasion addressing the house on the bill when it was
counted out; therefore he thought it was an adjourned de-
bate.

The SPEAKER said such a proceeding could not be
considered an adjournment of the debate.
Mr. TITE then proceeded. He said the object of the
bill was to amend certain provisions of the act of 1855. It
had been said the Metropolitan Board of Works had done
nothing but build themselves a palace at Spring-gardens.
That he denied. They had the right to dispose of the old
premises in Greek-street, and it was fully expected that it
would realize as much as the new building. They had also
been charged with neglecting the groat work of main
drainage. That was not the fact. They had pro-
ceeded with the work, and they had forty-five
miles under contract; and he had the authority of Mr.
Bazalgetto to state that within two years the metropolis
would be relieved of a large portion of the sewage which
was emptied into the Thames. The only object of the bill
was to explain and extend the authority of the district
boards, and he therefore hoped the house would on that
occasion read the bill a second time.
Mr. LOCKE said the present measure was a most ob-
jectionable one, and certainly instead of being taken. when
there were so few members present, it ought to be discussed
in all its provisions when there was a full attendance. He
cont mded that the Metropolitan Board of Works did not
possess the confidence of the inhabitants of the metropolis.
The The bill comprised no less than 116 clauses, and f the
second reading was carried, heaven alone could tell when
it would pass through committee. He altogether ob-
jected to the bill, and thought it ought to be witbdrawn,

for further consideration during the present session. The
hon. member was addressing the house at a quarter to six,
at which hour the debate, in accordance with the standing
orders, was adjourned.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENTS BILL.
This bill was read a third time.
DRUNKENNESS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill Was read a third time and passed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned.

LIVERPOOL RACES.—(This Day.)

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.)
£5O HANDICAP PLATE

Hesper ....
Cumberland
000000000000
Three ran. ............ 2
LIVERPOOL ST. LEGER.
Starlight walks over and the stakes divided.

CENTRAL CI?IMI,VAL COURT, July 10.

OLD COURT.
(Before Mr. Justice Wightman.)
TIIE ATTEMPTED MURDER AT ISLINGTON.

Frederick Strugnell was indicted with attempting to
murder Ann Redkinson.

The jury found the prisoner guilty, and he was sen-
tenced to be transported for life.

He was then, with two other men, named Quilter and
Linney, indicted for stealing an iron box containing £lOO,
the property of Mr. Higgins, Chapel-street, Islington.
The jury found all the prisoners guilty, and each of them
were sentenced to five years' penal servitude.