The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-15 00:00:00

house going into committee on this bill, he would move that
elections in the London Corporation should be taken by
ballot. The hon. baronet shortly after rose and asked if the
Government did not consider it would be unadvisable to
proceed further with the bill during the present session,
as it would inevitably meet considerable opposition.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he understood that there would
be no general opposition to the bill. His present wish was
to appoint a day that would afford an opportunity for the
full discussion of the bill.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. E. JAMES asked the Secretary of State' for the
Home Department whether any information had reached
her Majesty's Government, to the effect that more than two-
thirds of the provincial and local standards of weights and
measures had been used more than 20 years without re-
verification, and that the same were defective and un-
just, and could not be relied on as tests of accuracy ;
that such standards, nevertheless, furnish the legal means
and evidence by which the integrity and accuracy of the
weights and measures used by the tradesmen for commer-
cial purposes are ascertained and tested ; that legal convic-
tions take place, and penalties are enforced, for non-confor-
mity to such standards ; and, if so, whether her Majesty's
Ministers intended to take any steps for the prevention of
so great an injustice.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that during the last 20 years
means had been taken for verifying local standard weights
and measures with the fixed standard.
Mr. WALPOLE wished to know if the right hon.
baronet had any objection to introduce a bill on this subject.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that he had not, but it must first
I be determined whether the expense of the reverification
should be defrayed by a vote of the house or by local bodies.

INDIAN FINANCE. 1
Mr. BRIGHT inquired if the right hon. baronet, the
Secretary for India, would inform the house when the
subject of Indian finance would be brought
forward, and when any despatches on the matter would be
laid on the table.
Sir CHARLES WOOD was understood to say that
a statement on the subject of Indian finance would be
made shortly, but not till subsequent to the financial state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
In reply to Mr. HORSFALL,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
if the army and navy estimates were gone through to-morrow
evening—and he hoped if necessary the house would sit
a little longer than usual for that purpose—he proposed to
make his financial statement on Monday evening. (Ilear.)
INDIAN ARMY.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. H. BAILLIE called the attention of the house to
the report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into
the organisation of the Indian army, which elicited some
discussion, in which Sir C. Wood, General Peel, Lord
Stanley, Colonel Sykes, Sir De Lacy Evans, and. other hon.
members took part.
After which the subject dropped.
THE SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. GRIFFITH called the attention of the house to the
case of Santos v. Illidge and others, and asked the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he thought the
sth and 6th clauses of the act 6 and 7 Vic. c. 98, authoris-
ing the sale of slaves by British joint-stock companies,
should be repealed.
LAND TRANSPORT CORPS.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST asked the Secretary of State for
War whether any, and it so what, decision had been come to
by the Treasuryonthe subject of carrying out the recommen-
dations of the committee of last session on the claims of the
Land Transport Corps with reference to granting permanent
half-pay to that class of officers who entered the corps from
the militia and civil employ.
Mr. LAING said there would be no objection on the part
of the Treasury if the Secretary for War did not object. .
THE DOVER PACKETS CONTRACT.
Mr. RICH called attention to the Dover contract, but
said that as the whole matter would come before the Dover
election committee, as well as the committee on contracts,
he would not press the matter en the house, if he could
obtain from the Government an assurance that no confir-
mation of the contract should be made until the matter was
full investigated by the committee he had referred to.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY took the opportunity of com-
plaining of the slovenly way in which the navy estimates
had been drawn up. Nos. 8,9, and 10, upwards of three
millions in amount, were composed of gross slims embody-
ing a number of items that were not specified.. There was
nothing to show how the money was to be applied. There
was no disposition to grudge any amount, bat the country
wanted to know that the money was properly applied.
Sir J. PAKINGTON, in reference to the question of
Mr. Rich, had no objection either to the postponement of
the estimate which comprised the Dover con tract, or to the
matter being fully discussed at that time.
Lord C. PAGET said he meant to move the vote for
packets, and if Mr. Rich objected to any portion of it he
might move to strike out that portion. It was the earnest
desire of the present Board of Admiralty to go closely into
the question of shipbuilding, and to give all the informa-
tion that could be supplied. When the next estimates
were brought in he hoped that greater detail would be em-
ployed.
Sir F. T. BARING said there was a general belief that
the Dover contract required to be looked into, and he hoped
that the Government would not ask for the vote for that con-
tract until the coramitee had made their report. Other-
wise the house would have to discuss the matter twice.
Mr. WHITBREAD said the contract had been' igned
and was legally binding. He was told it was subject to the
approval of the house, but he found no mention of that in
the contract. As, however, it was the wii da of the house
that this contract should be further considered, the amount
would be omitted from the estimate about to be submitted.
After a few words from Mr. La GON,
Mr. ROEBUCK warned the house of tho danger into.
which they were likely to fall. If they canvassed all the
contracts of the Government they would bring into the lobby
of the house all the chicanery and contests which took place
in the American Congress. He was told that there was a
company which would positively be benefitted 'by this con-
tract being broken.
Mr. WILSON said that the contract contained the words
"to be paid out of the moneys voted by Parliament ;" but
.this was the case with all contracts, and did not necessarily
imply that the contract was subject to the approval of Par-
liament.
Lord J. RUSSELL, replying to the question of Mr.
Griffith, said that the matter was under the consideration'
of the law officers of the Crown.
SUPPLY.—NAVAL ESTIMATES.
The house then went into Committee of Supply.
Upon the motion that £368,311 be granted to defray the
half-pay, reserved half-pay, and cost of retiremant of offi-
cers in the Navy and Royal Marines,
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY called attention to the state of the
active list of officers. Out of a total of 1,600 officers of all
grades 260 were aged between 60 and 85. In the steamships
belonging to private companies there was a large number
of active and intelligent officers, who, since the passing of
the Mercantile Act, u ere bound to undergo examinations
quite as strict as officers in the Royal Navy ; and if an
examination on gunnery were added to the course, they
would form an efficient reserve, on which the country
could depend in the hour of need, and thereby the large
sum which the house was called on to vote annually for
half-pay might gradually be very materially reduced.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that there was a great defi-
ciency in the lower ranks of the navy—in mates and mid-
shipmen, for instance—while there was a great redundancy
in the number of admirals. He thought this system ought
to receive some check.
Sir C. NAPIER attributed the existing state of things
to the different Lords of the Admiralty. Between 1830 and
1846 there were 509 vacancies in the list, consequent upon
deaths and promotions, and while, according to the regula.•
tions, only one promotion ought to have taken place for
every three vacancies, for these 509 removals there were
369 promotions. It was evident that if the minute of 1830
had been made in 1815, and if every First Lord of the Ad-
miralty had acted upon it strictly, the number of officers of
the navy of all ranks would by this time have been very
considerably reduced. The evils of the system of promo-
tion, from the age of the officers, became very great, and he
suggested to the late Sir R. Peel, who was then in office, a
plan for removing a certain number of officers from the top
of the list with their own consent. Some years afterwards
Sir R. Peel consented to give a retirement to a certain
number of captains, who were allowed to take the rank of
admirals at 60 years of age, and if that arrangement had
not been interfered with the list would not have been in its
present state. If the list were only allowed to remain un-
disturbed it would be easily ascertained from an actuary
within what period that list would be exhausted. The fact
was that the different Boards of Admiralty had promoted
too many officers; utterly regardless of the regulation that
only one promotion should be made for every three vacan-
cies. An honourable member opposite had recommended
that officers in the merchant service should be alto wed to
become officers in the navy; but that system would not
answer, for their manners and education unfitted them
for such a position. They might as well put officers
,of the navy into the merchant service. He admitted
that in the event of a war, if there was a deficiency
of officers in her Majesty's navy, it would be absolutely ne-
cessary to call in a certain number of officers from the mer-
chant service, upon the distinct understanding that their
services were only required for a certain time. There was
no. doubt that a number of very fine young men might be
obtained as officers from the merchant service; but they
must only be used for the time they were wanted, unless
they distinguished themselves, and in that case no doubt
the Board of Admiralty would be glad to retain them per-
manently in the navy. The present condition of the list of
officers was attributable to the circumstance that the long
war led to numerous promotions ; that successive Boards of
Admiralty had sanctioned unnecessary promotions, and
that when a minute was made with the object of checking
promotions it was entirely disregarded.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I think it will be admitted by
every man who has studied the State of the navy, that the
' question which has been touched upon by the speakers who
have preceded me is one of the utmost importance as con-
nected with the efficiency of the naval service, and I cannot
allow this vote to pass without expressing my anxious hope
that the new Board of Admiralty will take into their con-
sideration the present stagnation of promotion in the navy,
and that they will deal boldly and courageously with the
anbiect. From the experience I have had for the last year
and a half, I think I may say it is absolutely necessary for
the efficiency of the naval service that something should be
done ; and I have also seen enough to be satisfied that no-
thing will be done that will effect the important object in
view unless the Minister who attempts to deal with the
subject is resolved to do so in a bold and determined spirit,
and not to be deterred from attaining his object by slight
difficulties. On Monday night the hon. and gallant member
for Southwark animadverted on the plan of retirement,which
was arranged while I was at the head of the Admiralty. I have
tocomplain, not I think unjustly, of the gallant officer for
making the subject of unfavourable comments in this house
a paper which was never in any sense made public, and,
therefore, of the fairness or unfairness of his remarks,
relative to which hon. members, never having seen the
evening the hon. member for Sunderland expressed a hope
document,
nil
:171:11ld takcoulde
naont
oppopossnibunlyit'yudge. Later on the same
inconvenient thatl should enter n.
a paper which has not been made
ture of my plan was. Now, while I think it would be very
there-
fore I could not hope to make intelligiblehe
o.ipftuoebxp.
detailsl
,ai n nag
connected what. the
wni
tah-
nevertheless, I may say that the
prepared *as this, that thereof thehl.
atondhown
principle .
ago—though not necessarily
cable to all ranks in the naval
I
would be required to retire, .receiving proposal
members,er hoosal I
should be laid down a certain
naval service,
the sameage—appli-
Fervice, at which officers
such compulsory retirement a step i
of pay regulated with du e regard tliale
as compensation for
rank and an amount
yearsyothunt there should
services to the country. I
also
proposed length of their actual
be another age—of course some
fixed for the compulsory retirement—at :ad! haonffitchearst
should have it in their power voluntarily to withdraw
with the same advantages. That was the principle on
which I framed that plan. Although it is perfectly
true, as I have said, that the paper to which I have re-
ferred was never in any sense published, I have shown it to

t 4haolehnnnu. manbderganofaneffit officers,
,„ ,sz their
-4 opoiniexopreepssaronaned,
etahiptehpreorqhinueensiiiiioobnn,licthoanartd.
admiral .thTthh eelivoien.waninodfpgriallvaan.,ret-,
-upon offiotchiners ofinleitshoatwnranokf. I can only
haem. o plan
mthemersebeitosem,
_ plan which offi-
would bear hard',
say that I should be pe
of the gallant ad-
teoerscoenftetnhde thihagthtrdiisstini- ed
rank
also that in undertaldng difficult task of devising any
miral would have the loathea.son to complain. I. admit
scheme of retirement to remedy the evils now teressing on
the navy from the want of .such a scheme, an 7 man would
fail in his duty if he did rot show the utmost possible re-
spect for the high claims of sue.h ow
fficerso
have tee the gallant ad-
wh risen to their
by their gallantry,
miral and many others of his rank;
high position by their own great sere. ces,
gia7d I am glad to have
and a long and successful career in a eeoble profession. On
men who ventured
the other hand, I feel with equal force,
this opportunity of stating it, that any
to enter upon such a work would no less failein. his duty if he
limited his regard to officers who have reached the highest
rank in the navy. I say the poor lieutenant is as much
entitled to consideration as the admiral—(cheers)—and I beg
to tell-the House that while I was at the Admiralty nothing
was more painful to me than the casee which came crowding
before me of men, who, having served the country well, had
failed in the difficult race of promotion for want of interest.
(Hear.) Yes, lam sorry to say it is too tree that many of
these men fail through the want of that mode Of getting ad-
vancement which we all know has been necessary. lam not
imputing blame to anybody, because we are all aware of the
difficulties which a Government have to meet—that they are
compelled to make selections from large bodies of men; and
let them make those selections as honestly as they may,
there must remain a large residuum unemployed and un-
promoted. Why, at this moment, there are officers who
have held the rank of lieutenant for years and years till they
have become old men, and who are now struggling to main-
tain themselves as officers and gentlemen on a pittance
wholly inadequate for the purpose. (Cheers.) Any one who
occupies the position which I had the honour to fill must
have his feelings continually wounded by numberless cases
of that description. And I say it in no spirit of disrespect,
that I think it behoves those more fortunate men who have
succeeded in attaining the highest distinction not to stand
upon too much punctilio on their own position. They ought
to show some consideration towards their less favoured
brethren, and to be willing to make some sacrifice to relieve
them from the hardship of their present lot. My plan ar-
rived at this point, that I had consulted my colleagues upon
it, that it had been cordially and thoroughly adopted by the
Cabinet ; and if I had remained at the Admiralty, I should
have done my utmost to carry it into effect, of course with
such modifications as fairness might dictate. The gallant
admiral said the plan was strongly opposed by many dis-
tinguished officers in the service, and even by the officers of
my, own board. (Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.) Now,
I will tell the gallant member this, that so far as I know
the disapprobation of that plan was mainly—l will not say
exclusively—confined to a very small number of officers at
the head of the list of his own rank, who took a view of it
which I deeply regret, and which I think very mistaken.
It is true the professional members of my board ware di-
vided on the subject, but this is equally true, that I did not
limit my inquiries as to the plan either to members of my
own board, or to the few distinguished men who stand at
the head of the navy. I consulted flag officers, captains,
and lieutenants, without knowing their previous bias, and
solely regarding their competence to give a fair and disin-
terested opinion ; and the overwhelming majority, includin.g:
officers of all ranks, were most hearty, and decided in their
approval of the scheme, and expressed hopes that I would
pursue it to a successful issue. (Hear, hear.) And as a
proof that something must be done, I beg to remind the
Secretary to the Admiralty that during the first 12 months
when I was at the head of that board I was not able to pro-
mote more than five lieutenants to be commanders, and
two commanders to be post-captains. Some extraordinary
promotions, indeed, took place in consequence of the tran-
sactions in China, but that does not interfere with the
accuracy of the statement I havemade as to the very limited
amount of ordinary promotion which occurred between
April, 1856, and April, 1859. I ask, can such a state of
things be expected to produce contentment in a great profes-
sion like the navy ? Is it likely you can have the service
provided with officers of an age suitable for the due per-
formance of their duties under a system of such stagnation
as this ? The gallant admiral told us that no evils of the
kind exist in the army, that general officers are not asked
to give way at a certain age, or regarded as impeding the
advancement of their younger brethren. In using that argu-
ment the gallant member surely forgot that the two services
are governed on totally different principles. The general in
the army does not stop promotion ; the admiral in the navy
does. Why, every year there are numbers—l may without
exaggeration sayhundreds—of officers in the army who quit
their profession by selling their commissions. Who leaves
the navy ? Nobody. Year after year you are pouring in
young gentlemen into the navy, although not, as has been
truly said, to a sufficient extent, but while you are doing so
nobody goes out at the top of the list. It really seems as if
our admirals were immortal. (A laugh.) They appear to
be exempted from the common lot of humanity, and, unless
they are carried off by a cannon shot they never die. (A
laugh.) lam glad of that, but with such a state of things
you need not be surprised at stagnation, and therefore I say
it is necessary to adopt some plan of retirement applicable
to the naval service. (Hear.) lam not the first naval Mi-
nister who has felt this embarrassment ; on the contrary,
from the nature of things it is constantly occurring, and in
point of fact various Boards of Admiralty have been com-
pelled to adopt retiring lists. A retiring list relieves the
system for a time, but after a few years it is again choked,
you again experience a dead lock, and I do not believe
you will ever provide an effectual cure until you adopt some
self-acting plan, which shall promote retirements at the top
of the list as you pour in fresh blood at the bottom, and so
enable you to have a due succession of officers capable of
doing good service to the country. (Hear, hear.) It was my
anxious wish, by the adoption of a simple mode of retire-
ment, with fair compensation for the disadvantages it created,
to afford a permanent remedy for the present state of things.
I left office before I could carry out a plan which, though
open to correction in its details, I believe, in its leading
principles was perfectly fair and sound, and which would
have attained the object in view. I have left that plan to
my successor. It is in the hunds of the Duke of Somerset,
whom I have implored to consider it impartially as a matter
deeply affecting the welfare of the British navy, and I shall
be glad to hearfrom the Secretary to the Admiralty that the
present Board will endeavour by some means or other, to re-
medy what I believe to be a great and growing evil. (Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER had hoped that the right hon. baronet
would not again have found fault with him for having men-
tioned his plan of retirement. That plan was not furnished
to him confidentially, and he appealed to the house to say
whether a document which was handed round to almost
every old admiral resident in London, and which farmed the
subject of a petition to her Majesty could be properly called
confidential. It was true the petition to which he referred
was not presented to the Queen, but the reason of that was
that the right hon. baronet loft office -before the requisite
arrangements mild be completed. The petition, however,
was signed by himself and several other admirals, and one
of those who attached their names to it took the liberty of
telling the right hon. baronet that an experience of 15
months at the head of the Admiralty did not seem to have
taught him to respect the feelings of naval officers. (A
laugh.) To press old officers to retire from the service was
degrading, and he could never forget that the death of his
own father, a captain in the navy, who had not had an op-
portunity of serving, was caused by his being passed over
in promotion. The truth was that the,right hon. baronet
did not know, and never would know, what the feelings of
naval Officers were—(a laugh)—and fortunate it was that
he was driven from office before he could bring forward his
nefarious system of retirement. (Laughter.) It was no
doubt true that the right hon. baronet obtained the assent
of a number of officers to his plan, but the probability was
that those officers were young men who wanted promotion ;
at all events, he could state with certainty that the plan
was disapproved by the senior officers. But the right hon.
baronet had not told the house all. In addition to the other
objectionable features of his scheme, the right hon. baronet
actually wanted to take into his own hands, with the view
of increasing the patronage at his disposal, the hauling-
down vacancies belonging to flag-officers, as well as those
special vacancies which were given to the Board of Admi-
ralty for the purpose of rewarding officers for gallant ser-
vices.. (Hear, hear.) It was quite true that various boards
had made retirements. That was quite right : it brought
forward a sufficient number of young officers, and
at the present moment there were more young admirals in
the service than there were during the war. But the pro-
posal of the right hon. baronet went 'much further, and he
could only say that he hoped the present First Lord would
would find something better to do than hurting the feelings
of old officers, and that the House of Commons would not
vote a single shilling except for the purpose of assisting old
commanders and lieutenants who had not sufficient interest
to make their way in the service, (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that not a single word of what
had fallen from the hon. and gallant admiral applied to the
present system of retirement. The gallant admiral com •
plained of the cruelty of compelling old and distinguished
officers to retire. Perhaps the house would be surprised to
hear that his (Sir J. Pakington.'s) plan did not compel any
flag-officer to retire. (Hear, hear.) It applied to officers
in junior ranks, but did not deprive any flag-officer of any
privilege that he now possessed.
Sir C. NAPIER- -I don't know how the rule now stands,
but I know how it stood when I was employed by the Ad-
miralty.
Sir C. WOOD, who was almost inaudible in the gallery,
was supposed to speak to the following effect :—lt is very
inconvenient to discuss a plan not before the house, but I
think the right hon. gentleman has very much understated
the effect of the plan of retirement. The consequence of the
plan now in force is to reduce the period of service of post-
captains from 36 years to under 20 years. There are at this
moment, I believe, a greater number of young admirals,. if
I may use the expression, than there had previously been
since Lord Howe's time. The number of admirals under 60
years of age is now 30 instead of 9, which was the number
under the previous plan of retirement. I confess that I do
not believe that retirementby age would bean improvement
of the present system. I think that every one will admit.
that Lord Lyons was one of the most efficient officers we
have had for many years, and yet Lord Lyons would have
been disqualified years ago if retirement at the age of 60had
been compulsory, for Lord Lyons 1 believe was 70 when he
died. [Admiral Walcott.-68.] I do not say that every
man above or belOw 60, would be able to command a fleet,
but I think it would be a great mistake to debar yourselves
of the services of such a man as Lord Lyons because he was
above 60 years of age. (Hear, hear.) I say this without any
reference to the plan of the right hon. gentleman. The
number of superior officers being much less than those of
the inferior, officers, it is impossibleto hope that by any plan
of retirement promotion can be given to all the inferior offi-
cers. Suppose that 1,200 lieutenants is the number required
and 350 captains, and 450 commanders, it is obviously im-
possible that the whole number of lieutenants can be pro-
moted to commanders. By increasing the retired list you
will remove officers whohave attained an age which renders
it almost impossible for them to serve. It is to the interest
of the country that the list of officers in the lower ranks
should be relieved of such as are incapable of serving in
that rank. I think that the present rules of retirement have
answered, to a great extent, the purpose for which they were
instituted. No scheme that could be invented would be
agreeable to all classes of persons.
Admiral WALCOTT said, if the country and the house
would only exercise a little patience these gray-headed men
would soon disappear from the reach of their bounty.
The house had not been made acquainted with the circum-
stance under which the large list had been produced. It
owed its origin to the war that lasted from 1792 to 1815,
during which we had at one time 1,000 pendants flying.
Thera were at the same time, no less than 140,000 seamen
tei
rtryts. was
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ee
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erprotectingohave/as
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ler-
ye
in the service. We were at war with almost the whole
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ged te hae neu
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very large, and that was the cause as he had always said of
the number of' officers on these lists. If an actuary were
applied to, he would tell them that officers of the navy did
not live longer than other men, but the more favourable
state of the public health, of late years, accounted for the
average of -life being greater. All the lists, whether of
admirals, captains, commanders, or lieutenants, were
crowded with old men, and they had only to exercise a
little patience, and they would see them thinned by the
natural effect of time. Since 1815 appointments; promo-