The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-24 00:00:00

their opinion on questions of difficulty ; and I may mention
that some of these officers have already been desired to sub •

mit plans to the Admiralty for vessels for the defence of the
coast. My hon. and gallant friend seems to hold that what
we want is not mon for the work, but work for the men. I

can assure my hon. and gallant friend that in the dockyards,
so far from our having too little work for the men, the
arrears of repairs of ships have accumulated greatly, owing
to the large amount of building which has taken place
within the last few years. We have a very large body of
men now employed on repairs which ought to have been
effected a considerable time since. l‘ly hon. and gallant
friend, in referring to the evidence of my right hon. friend
the member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), spoke as :if the
Admiralty had power to construct public works without the
sanction of Parliament. It may be perfectly true that the
Victualling-yard at Devonport was built in a great mea-
sure without the control of Parliament, but times have
changed very much since that was done. The Admiralty
have now no power to commence any work without the
sanction of the Treasury. That is a great check, to which
my hon. and gallant friend did not allude, and it consti-
tutes a great difference between the present times and those
during which the Admiralty hae the power of constructing
works without any control or sanction. It is also said that
the late Controller made complaints that he had no control

as to the stock of timber in the dockyards. I believe than
there was some justice in those complaints. There has
been great inconvenience experienced, but it has arisen
from this fact, that our departments are separated, and
that, whereas they ought to be all under one roof and in
daily communication with each other—(hear, hear)—we
have the Controller of the Navy at Whitehall, while the
storekeeper, an officer intimately connected with him in all
business, is at Somerset. house. Constant communication
between those officers has ceased from the day on which
the Controller was removed to Whitehall. It is one of the
recommendations of the commission, in which I heartily
concur, that the departments should be re-united. The
Admiralty is a great war department, and although we may
struggle on in time of peace, yet if w.sr broke out to-mor-
row it would be found absolutely necessary that all its
parts should be brought under one roof. This matter is
considered by the Board of Admiralty to be so important
that we are already in communication with the Treasury
upon the subject, and I hope that before long a great and
beneficial change will be made. The hon. and gallant ad-
miral the member for Devonport thinks that the recom-
mendation of the commission, that there should each year
be laid upon the table an estimate of the cost of ships to be
built, could not be carried out. I differ from him. I believe
that it can be done; but it can only be done when you have
a correct account of what ships cost ; therefore, if I were
now to lay upon the table an estimate of the cost of what we
propose to do this year it would be only deceiving the
house. My noble friend the Duke of Somerset has, in order
that we may comply with the general wish of the house that
we should give all the information which we can, em-
powered me to give a sort of rough estimate of what we are
really going to do, and that estimate I should be glad to
communicate te the committee when we get to Vote 10. I
cannot oppose the motion of my hon. friend. At the same
time I do not think it is necessary, because it is the desire
of the Admiralty to carry out the recommendations of the
commission, and as I understand that if it is carried we
shall not be able to go into committee of supply to-night, I
hope that he will not press it to a division. (Hear, hear.)
Admiral WALCOTT was glad to hear that the recom-
mendations made by the Royal Commission were to be car-
ried out, and shoul I in consequence abstain from entering
into details with which he had intended to trouble the
house. Many of the evils which were now complained of
were the natural results of the constitution of the Board of
Admiralty, and others had arisen from the Controller of
the Navy not being allowed so complete an authority as
ought to be attached to so important and so responsible an
office. The hon. and gallant admiral took occasion to state
that the perusal of the evidence given by Sir B. Walker
before the commission had convinced him that it was quite
unnecessary that that gallant officer should have remained
in England to be examined by the committee which was
now sitting to inquire into the Admiralty.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY could not help thinking that any
expression of opinion as to what the executive authority in-
tended to do with respect to the report of this commission
was somewhat premature. That authority had not as yet
had time to consider, still less to act upon the recommen-
dations of the commissioners. He had no hesitation in say-
ing that time sufficient had not elapsed to allow the autho-
rities to consider, and still less to carry out, the recommen-
dations of the commissioners, though the noble duke at the
bead of the service was not only able but most willing to
advance any measure calculated to promote the interests of
the service. (Hear.) The report of the Royal Commission
had been somewhat strangely dealt with. It was sent to the
Secretary of State for the Home Department on the 11th of
March, and on the 12th it was placed on the table of that
house, so that, without even being read by her Majesty's
Ministers, it was subjected to a good deal of criticism both
in and out of doors. It was true that on the whole that re-
port had been well received—(hear)—but he thought the
distinction bad not been sufficiently noticed which was
drawn between the cash and value accounts—a difference,
nevertheless, which was very important, as affecting impu-
tations cast on officers in the dockyards. These officials
were charged with keeping extremely loose and careless ac-
counts—(hear)—and the commissioners, in making tbat
charge, very much understated the effect of the evidence
brought before them, which clearly showed that the value
accounts were not worth a farthing. Persons out of doors
supposed that such a state of accounts necessarily led to
purloining the public money, whereas the cash transactions
were altogether apart from the value accounts, as the com-
missioners took care to point out. And although these
value accounts were thoroughly unsound, the house was not
to fall into the error of supposing that they were of no im-
portance whatever, as without them the house had no means
of knowing the cost of any ship, or of comparing one with
another. Mr. Watts, the chief constructor, told the
commissioners that he had looked to these accounts
for guidance as to the cost of ships for many
years, and was not in the habit of making any special in-
quiries unless the cost of two particular ships was found to
be very disproportionate. For his own part, he very much
doubted whether the Storekeeper-General had sufficient
control over his own storekeepers, and whether that depart-
ment, consequently, did not require scrutiny. But it was
undoubtedly true that some of the attempts at partial ame-
lioration had resulted in leaving things worse than they
were at the beginning, while boards very often did not fol-
low out their own schemes for improvement. The effect of
the change by which an accountant was sent to each yard
was to take away the check which previously existed on the
storekeepers' notes ; and at Woolwich lately a good many
errors had been detected by recurring to the old system.
He hoped the distinguished Accountant-General, Sir R.
Bromley would do something towards ameliorating the pre-
sent system of accounts, and that the noble duke at the head
of the department would succeed in restoring a greater
degree of harmony between the principal officers. The Con-
troller, Storekeeper, and Accountant-General were all pull-
ing different ways, and the jealousy between them was
carried to a pitch little shoat of absurdity. A board, as a
board, he had always thought a bad governing body where
manufactures on an enormous scale were carried on, requir-
ing the firm hand and sound head of a single responsible
person—(hear, hear)—but, assuming a board of some kind
to be a necesssity in connexion with the Admiralty, the noble
duke, with the assistance of his colleagues, might do much,
he thought, to set matters on a better footing. The prevail-
ing impression with regard to the unsatisfactory state of the
accounts of the department had been produced in a great
degree by the evidence of the Accountant-General, and he
therefore trusted that gentleman maintained the same un-
hesitating language elsewhere. The noble lord the Secre-
tary to the Admiralty had truly stated that in the course of
the inquiry nothing in any way bearing the semblance of
malpractice had transpired ; had anything of the kind come
to light, from the determined spirit with which the com-
mission was entered upon, it would certainly havo been
clearly and distinctly reported. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. SMITH said it was not his intention to press his
motion, which he accordingly begged leave to withdraw.
Mr. DALGLISH said the information given by the noble
lord with regard to the intentions of the Government was
excessively meagre. He had stated, in effect, that the Go-
vernment were precluded from doing any thing by the
fact that a committee on this subject was sitting upstairs.
The public thought that the Admiralty was in a bad state,
and no half measure would do. The gallant admiral the
member for Devonport seemed to think that, provided our
ships were well built, the dockyard accounts were of trifling
importance. He concurred with the hon. and gallant gen-
tleman that our ships ought to be well built, but he also
held that the accounts wore of vast importance. (Hear.)
An hon. member had pi aised the noble duke at the head of
the Admiralty.
He had no doubt that the noble duke was
a very able administrator, but he should be glad it any one
would point out in what respect the Admiralty had been
improved within thelast two years—if any one would point
out one step that had been taken to improve it since the
time when it was underthe right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Droitwich. (Hear.) What improvements had been
made in the department since those for which we were in-
debted to that right hon. gentleman and the right hon. bart.
the member for Carlisle ? (Hear.) It had undergone no
ehange for the better during the last two years, nor did he
believe it would during the next two. The Admiralty was
now extensively engaged in manufacturing. They would
soon be manufacturing their own steam engines. The rea-
son given for this was that such a system provided a check
agaiest overcharge by contractors; but it failed in supply.
ing any correct standard of the charges in consequence of
the unsatisfactory state of the accounts, which were kept in
the most extraordinary way that ever accounts had been
kept.' (Hear.) ftlt had been stated that everything manu-
factured in the Royal dockyards cost 50 per cent. more than
tf.iaatsufactured by contract. What was the system adopted
sin the. French navy ? They built nothing themselves which
they could contract for. The noble lord the Secretary to the
Admiralty had assured the house that no_department of the
Government was to blame for the length, of time which the
V Lii;l:'eert under construction. He did not know the
factslr io
arrofrthe case himself, but he had every reason,to believe
that after the Warrior was contracted for the changes in re-
spect to details were incessant, and that to those changes
the delay might almost entirely be attributed. The plan of
the ship was drawn by Mr. Watts, of the Admiralty, and
perhaps it was the boa that could have been adopted ; bn