The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-21 00:00:00

DIVORCE, &c., BILL.

In reply to a question from Lord J. MANNERS,
Lord PALMERSTON said it was his intention to
proceed with the Divorce, &c., Bill on Friday next.
THE DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY.
On the report of the Committee of Supply being
brought up,
Mr. BENTINCK rose, in pursuance of notice, to call
the attention of the house to the state of the naval and
military defences of the country. Referring to the dis-
cussion upon the subject on Friday last, the hon. gen-
tleman said the answer of the noble lord at the head of
the Government was unsatisfactory, and he wished to
elicit a clearer statement. He understood the right hon.
baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty to have said
on a previous occasion that we had not a steam line-of-
battle ship fit to carry troops to the East. He inferred
that the ships were not in a sufficiently advanced state
to be employed at a few days' notice in the conveyance
of troops, and therefore that the ships could sot be imme-
diately drawn out for the purpose of national defence. The
noble lord at the head of the Government told the house
that he saw nothing in the present state of affairs
to necessitate or justify the calling out of the militia
this year, but he did not tell the house what course
would be adopted to make good the deficiency of troops
which must be created by the necessity of sending a
large number to India. The noble lord, with his usual
frankness, said he saw no probability of any outbreak in
Europe. No man was more qualified to give an opinion
on such a point, but the noble lord was not omniscient
nor omnipotent. It was impossible that he or any one
could say what might occur in the next four weeks.
No opinion on the probability or improbability of an
outbreak in Europe was worth anything, because it
could be only a speculation, upon which they would not
be justified in acting. Within a few weeks we might
be engaged in hostilities with one or two of the most
powerful States in Europe, and there ought to be means
at our command to insure the safety of the country in
the event of the occurrence of such a contingency.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord seemed to hold doctrines
more becoming the Peace-at-any-price party. He said
that " We must cut our coat according to our cloth."
The SPEAKER felt obliged to remind the hon.
member that these constant references to past debates
were contrary to Parliamentary usage. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK would not presume to argue with
the right hon. gentleman who presided, 'but he sub-
mitted that, as he felt it his duty to call attention to the
opinions expressed by the noble lord upon an important
subject, if he were not allowed to advert to those opi-
nions there would be a complete end to all freedom of
debate. He understood the noble lord on a former oc-
casion to say that the expenditure of the country should
be regulated by its income. That was a dangerous doc-
trine to be laid down by the Prime Minister. It was
calculated to raise strong doubts as to whether the noble
lord had taken proper means for maintaining our de-
fences by sea and land. He trusted that the important
subject which he had ventured to introduce to their no-
tice would be taken up by gentlemen of more ability and
influence than himself, and that at length an expla-
nation would be elicited from the Government as to
the measures they proposed to adopt for preserving the
efficiency of our naval and military defences.
Lord A. V. TEMPEST said that in deference to the
feelings of the house the other evening he did not persist
in his motion for postp ming the vote for an increase of
seamen in our navy. He submitted, however, that in
the present critical condition of India, and with hostili-
ties going on in China, the noble lord at the head of the
Government ought to have made a statement to the
house with respect to the exigencies of the country, and
explained how he proposed to meet them. In lieu ot that
—when, on Friday evening, the vote for 2,000 additional
seamen was handed to the chairman in Committee of
Supply, not a single remark was made by the First Lord
of the Admiralty or any other member of the Govern-
ment, and bad he not ventured himself to address a few
observations to the house the vote would have been
agreed to in solemn silence. We could not disguise from
ourselves the fact that a large military force would
he required to suppress the revolt in India, and
therefore it was somewhat extraordinary that the only
vote which the Government had proposed for an increase
of our armaments was one for an addition of 2,000 sea-
men to the navy. It had been stated by the public jour-
nals—not by any member of the Government—that
25,000 soldiers were about to proceed to India. He
wished to know what measures the Government intended
to take in order to replace that large force. Nothing
could be more dangerous than to denude this country of
the whole of its military defences, and yet, while the Go-
vernment had maintained a studious silence on the sub-
ject of any increase to our regular army, the Primo Mi-
nister bad positively declared that, in his opinion, the
calling out of the militia was unnecessary. If the noble
lord supposed that recruits could be obtained with little
difficulty he was very much mistaken. (Hear.) The
people had not forgotten the excessive favour shown to
the soldiers of the Foreign Legion, and the rewards be-
stowed upon the members of the various civil corps,
and they would not be found so ready to enlist into
the army as some persons seemed to expect. Moreover,
it ought to be remembered that at the close of the last
war our army was 50,000 men under the estimates voted
by Parliament—a fact which. showed how necessar y
it
was to take immediate measures for replacing
the large
force about to be sent to India. With respect to
of our
to the con-
veyance of troops, he might state thater M
a
a portion
Majesty s screw
Crimean army was brought home i
Fin h
First Lord of the Admi.
line-of-battle ships, although the
ralty bad previouslydeclared that nu vessels belonging to
the navy would be used for that purpose,
in convey-
pose, and he was
convinced the employment of screw steamers
ing troops to India or China at the present time would
be productive of both efficiency and economy. The noble
lord concluded by asking what was the total number of
troops intended to be sent to India—bow they were to
be conveyed—whether the Government had considered
the expediency of increasing the regular army, and flee,
to what extent—and whether the Government had con-
sidered the propriety of calling out some of the militia
regiments ?
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was evidently a strong
desire on the part of certain classes to increase the army.
For many years the standing army of the country fur
home and colonial duty amounted to 81,000. It was now
126,000, and he hoped the Government, which knew the
smuts of the country much better than individual mem-
bers, would not be induced by any remarks from mem-
bers in that house to make an increase which they them-
selves felt to be unnecessary.
Col KNOX reminded the hon, member for Lambeth
that 30,000 men had been abstracted from the army at
home fur service in India and China. The hon. member,
however, bad a hobby, which was to endeavour by every
;none in his power to reduce the army-to auonclitien in
which it would be insufficient for the wants of the coun-
try. lie (Col. Knox) hoped the noble lord would profit

by the experience gained in the last war, when, having
allowed our army to be toe much reduced, we were driven
to great straits to procure the men who were absolutely
necessary for us.

Lord PALMERSTON—It is, I think, not usual for
' I men who have at any time been anxious for the attain-
ment of a certain object to become less eager for it when
they are placed in a position which makes them pee-
sonally responsible for its attainment. Now, at a mo-
ment when the question of adequate national defences
was not quite so popular as it is now, I was one of those
who out of office, as before that time when I was in
office, urged upon Parliament the necessity of making
more ample provision for the defences of the country.
(Hear.) I retain that opinion now, and, being a mem-
ber of the Government and more responsible for providing
adequate defences, I hope hon, gentlemen will give us
credit for not being neglectful in accomplishing an object
which all must admit to be of paramount importance.
Now, the hon. gentleman who spoke last seemed dis-
posed to taunt us with evincing an inclination to too
much economy in our arrangements, I have always felt
and urged that Parliament ought to provide ample funds
fer whatever may be necessary in the way of military or
naval defences. (Hear.) I can only say that the expe-
rience of the past leads me confidently to rely upon the
fact that Parliament never will be backward in answer-
ing the calls of the Government, whatever that Govern.
ment may be, whenever it is felt that increased exertions
are necessary to enable the Government to provide
adequate means for the national defences. But it is one
thing to call on Parliament in a great emergency to in•
crease the burdens of the country, with a view to pro-
tect the country from danger ; it is another thing, in or-
dinary times, to call on Parliament to go beyond that
amount which the Government, acting upon its own re-
speesibility, has deemed to be sufficient for defence,
although perhaps they might have an opinion that the
amount was not quite so large as they wonld have
desired had there been more ample means their
disposal. At the beginning of this year there ,as
laid before Parliament a statement of the amount
of military and naval force which we, who are re-
sponsible, considered at the time would be likely to
be required. Therefore, as far as the defences of
the country are concerned, looking at the state of Europe
I see no reason why we should call upon Parliament to
give us a greater number of men than we asked for ori-
ginally. (Hear.) The hon, gentleman who commenced
this discussion thinks we do not look with sufficient fere-
sight to events which might happen to disturb the tran-
quillity of Europe and might involve this country in the
necessity of making greater exertions. I can only say I
see no prospect at present, no question impending which
is likely to involve us in any struggle in Europe. I trust
the hand of Provideece will protect us from any of those
events which may unexpectedly produce a state of con-
vulsion. But if such an emergency should arise, Parlia-
ment is sitting, to whom we could at once apply, and if
Parliament were not sitting we have the power of calling
it together and asking its advice and assistance. Upon
these grounds I feel there is no immediate cause for us to
apply to Parliament for a greater amount of force for the
service of the United Kingdom than that which we asked
for at the beginning of this year. But it is quite true
that events unexpectedly arising in India have compelled
us to send from this country a portion of that force which
had been intended to remain here for the purposes of
national defence or for furnishing reliefs upon those sta-
tions where they might be needed. We, however, took
steps to fill up the gap that would be created. We at
once ordered the most active recruiting to take place.
The only immediate way in which a drain of this kind
can be met is by enlisting fresh recruits to augment the
oitablishment of regiments remaining at home and in
other places, or for the purpose, if it becomes necessary,
of raising second battalions with a view of increasing the
number of corps for relief abroad ; but that operation
will go on without any assistance from Parliament up to
the amount which Parliament has already sanctioned for
the military establishment of the country. Parliament
has voted a certain number of men, and a portion of
that number being sent out to India, we are able
to fill up by recruitments the gap thus created, and
to restore the establishment to the same amount at
which it stood before these events occurred. I hope that
at an early period that gap will be filled up by the ordi-
nary process of recruit.ng. It not, it will become the duty
of the Government to see what other steps may be re-
quired. One of the methods which has been suggested,
and which has been much pressed upon us by hon. mem-
bers on the other side of the house, is that we should
have recourse to the militia. I think hon. gentlemen do
not accurately picture to themselves a distinct idea of
what it is they recommend. If they recommended that
the militia should be called out for training and exercise
for the limited period of 28 or 56 days, to which in time
of peace they are confined, is that intended as a means
of inducing the men of those regiments to volunteer for
the line ? I dare say, if we were to call out a large body
of the militia for training and exercise, many of them
would volunteer into the line, but it would be a most expen-
sive mode of raising men, because in order to recruit 100 or
200 men, you would have to pay the full establishment of
the militia regiment for 28 or 56 days. Thus, the two-
thirds or three-fourths of the regiment who would not
volunteer must be paid in order to induce the remaining
one-fourth or one-third to join the line. Other gentlemen
say we ought to embody the militia as a permanent part
of the home garrison ; but: if they looked at the Act of
Parliament they would see that we have no power to do
so. The law gives the Crown the power of embodying
the militia in case of war with some foreign Power, or
in case of insurrection or danger at haute. We are not
at war. I see no likelihood of our being engaged in a
European war, and certainly there never was a moment
when the country was less likely to see an insurrection
at home. It is possible, no doubt, that events may
have happened in India, of which we may receive
information before Parliament rises, which will neces-
sitate so large a detachment of forces from this coun-
try than the ordinary process of recruiting will not be
likely to till up the gap ; and I admit that, without
any apprehension of particular danger at home, or
anticipating any unfavourable change of political cir-
cumstances in Europe, it would not be right and fit-
ting to leave this country, I will not say entirely
destitute, but with any diminntion for any length of
time of the force that is necessary for its home defence.
(Hear, hear.) It might, therefore, in such a case be
proper to ask Parliament to give the Crown for a limited
period powers to embody a portion of the militia,
though not in a state of war. I merely mention that as
one of the possible events that might make a recourse to
Parliament necessary, though I hope no such necessity
will arise. Tee noble lord opposite has asked me to tell
him the number of troops going to India—a question
which I beg to say I have already answered. The force
sent out, or being rent out, is, in round numbers,
20,000, consisting partly of recruits for the European
corps in the service of the Company, partly of infantry
of the line, partly of cavalry, and also of artillery. There
are about 1,000 artillery, c .nsisting of six companies of
foot and 2 troops of horse artillery ; there are 3 regi-
ments of cavalry going, and the rent will be infantry of
the line. We have sent out what we think to be suffi-
cient, judging from the last communications we had from
India, and the amount of force sent rather exceeds
that which the Governor-General in his last communica-
tion thought it was essential be should have. If, unfor-
tunately, further accounts should necessitate our send-
ing larger reinforcements, we shall then consider what
step; we ought to take, and whether it may not be neces-
sary to have recourse to Parliament for further powers.
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY thought the real question was
whether the readiest and quickest mode of sending
troops to India had been adopted by the Government.
He thought it was impossible to send troops in line-of-
battle ships at anything like the cost of merchant ships
as the former could not, like the latter lessen the charge
by back cargoes. The question, in his opinion, lay be-
tween sailing and steam-ships. Ye found from a return
he held in his hand that the average passage of 22 sailing
ships from this country to Calcutta was 1321 days, and
that screw steamers had performed the same passage
in 94 days, lees stoppages of ten days being
a gain of 33 days in favour of the screw steamers.
Bur, throwing aside stoppages, there would be a saving
of 45 days by sending troops to India in screw steamers.
This, he thought, was a matter of grave consideration at
the present moment. The passage homeward from India
showed nearly the same results, and the returns he had
went to prove that in the passage out and home by
screw steamers there would be a saving of about one-
third in point of time.
Sir C. NAPIER considered it impossible to send the
troops to India by line-of-battle ships, as they could not
be fitted out in less than three months from the day the
order was given. Great difficulty, too, would be found in
ireA vessels.dm Admiralty
Nrvaeirseingrignhletni,n and he
intohet theherefo
marketthaatgohht the
did not care what the cost was, but he thought the Go.
re
vernment ought to send out screw sh'pe, and, in order to
save their coals, they should take care to have them
towed out to catch the trade winds. With respect to the
defences of the country, he had always been of opinion,
and he believed that the Government themselves were of
the same opinion if they would only speak out, that this
country ought never to be left without a Channel squad-
s sailing i
paying
n sghip offs ak
our - n
steam other nations
ss vessels,
ron for an emergency. It was no use for the Government
steam,gland and,to rely
insteadupon o
of E
had
he contended that we should have paid cif our sailing
vessels, and have maintained our screw ships. Our sta-
tion blockships, as they were called, were not blockships
in reality, but were only bad steamers which were of no
use whatever. Instead of such inefficient craft, we ought
have first-rate screw ships at every outport, and as the
Coastguard were now a well.organised corps, they would
have been competent to man the ships if the ships only
had been ready for their reception. He trusted the Govern-
ment would recall from the outports those bad and useless
vessels, and thatthey would substitute for them the best
steamers at their disposal. It wasknuwn that ships in com-
mission with their full crews aboard did not wear out so
fast as ships that were laid up in ordinary; nevertheless
it had been the custom of this country to have the best
ships laid in ordinary, while the worst ships were in
commission. In conclusion he again pressed upon the
Government the absolute necessity of embarking the
troops for India in screw ships.
Lord C. HAMILTON, before agreeing to the recep•
tion of the report upon Supply, wished to ask this plain
and practical question—what was the advantage gained
to this country by the expenditure of the money which
they were now asked tortanction ? 500,000/, was not the
whole vote which they would be called upon to provide
—it was only an instalment of a larger sum which al-
ready amounted to 930,000/, ; and, as it was one of the
most important duties of the House of Commons to see
that the public funds were not wasted, he could not con-
scientiously consent to this vote until he had heard some
explanation with respect to the value received for the
outlay. He was not going to discuss the policy of the
Persian %ear ; but he wiehed to know what was the diffe•
rence between the terms agreed to at retie, and these
which were offered, sad were within our mop it CialitSlat.