The Sun.
London, England, 1857-12-09 00:00:00

/ lIE :SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENYNG DECE.‘iIIIER D,

noted, to satisfy the just expectation of the c Wintry in
this respect.
Mr. COLLIER—Having moved a reeolutiati a
previous session in favour of the principle of lin, lied
liability, he would not shrink from extending that
principle
to its legitimate consequence, v:z., that %every
commercial partnership should be at liberty tie con tract
with the public on the principle of either limit# d c r un-
limited liability, the put lie having proper nee'acee as to
which of the two principles they were dealing upon . He
considered that the commercial classes o; this coronary
were better judges of their own interesta than that house
could be, and he would leave them to att as they pleased.
If the motion went no further than that, he wo ald sup-
port it. Eat it went much further ; it commi cted the
house to the expression of an opinion that unlit) Sited lia-
bility had been the cause of many disasters, and/. that in
the business of banking the principle of limited, was pre-
ferable to that of unlimited liability. (Hear.) Now he
d,d not think it expedient that the house should express
any such opinion. kCheers.) It was sufficient for them
to say to the banks, " We will not interfere ; you may
contract with the public as you please." IE, then, we
were to express an opinion on the subject, he would
say it should be the very reverse of that re, commended
by his hon. and learned friend. (Hear, he r.) Though
he would leave the banks free to contract., upon either
principle, he was clearly of opinion that the unlimited
principle was the better of the two. (Hear, hear.) Others
might first trust an unlimited liability bank if they
pleased, but he would not. (" Hear," toed laughter.)
Whose interest ought they to consult most, that of the
shareholders or that of the public ? He ventured to
think that the interest of the public deserved more con-
sideration than that of the shareholders. (Ch eers.) The
shareholders had some voice and discretion in the
management, and must, be supposed to have some know-
ledge of the conduct of the directors, but the public
knew nothing of the one or the other. His hoe. and
learned friend was wrong in supposing that the interest
of the shareholders was the paramount consideration ; it
was that of the public. (Hear.) Take the British Bank.
In that case the public had not suffered mach by the
failure. The creditors had, he believed, received or
would receive 16s. in the pound, and but for the ruinous
law charges, which were wholly indefensible, would
have received the full 203. But what would have been
the result had the shareholders been able to protect
themselves by the plea of limited liability ? His hon.
and learned friend said that unlimited liability encour-
aged undue speculation, while limited liability discour-
aged i' .That was entirely the reverse of every argument
they had betherte het don the subject. It was, in fact,
ignoring all experience and all knowledge of human
nature, which taught them that those who had nothing
to lose were always more ready to speculate than those
who had everything to lose. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. E WART saw no reason why, as the house
had adopted the principle of limited liability in reference
to other joint-stock partnerships, it should not be ex-
tended to banks. In the case of the South Wales Bank
and some others, the consequence of unlimited liability
had been to encourage an unwise extension of banking
operations by means of bills, which, in the end, has led
to stoppage and failure.
Mr. WYLD denied that the public did not suffer
under the operation of unlimited liability in banking.
When failure came the unlimited liability did not prac-
tically operate, while it tended to depreciate the charac-
ter of the proprietary body. In the case of the British
Bank, which had paid only Bs. in the pound, but which,
by the exhaustion of the paying ability of the share-
holders, it was hoped might pay 163. 61., the result of
the intended principle Wai that when failure took place,
instead of having a large body of wealthy proprietors to
fall back upen, the creditors found that 72 of the share-
holders were governesses, clerks, shopmen, and persuns
in humble circumstances, whose whole available resources
were sunk in the bank. He knew from the investigation
which had taken place into the affairs of the British
Bank that if it had been conducted on the principle of
liability the whole sum due to the creditors would have
been paid. He should support the proposition of the hon
member for Newcastle, and he hoped that if it was not
carried the Government would allow this point to be in-
&tided in the general inquiry into the subject of banking.
Mr. L. KING said that the hon. and learned member
for Plymouth asked why the principle of limited liability
should not be ex`ended to banking as to other trades.
The reason was, that in other trades the trading was car-
ried en with the trader's own capital, while the trade of
banking was carried on with the capital of other parsons.
If the principle of limited liability had been applied to
banking he believed that the disasters which had occurred
in the recent crisis would have been greater than they
were.

Mr. VirEGUELIN said he was unable to support the
proposition before the house. He felt that the applica-
tion of the principle of limited liability to the paid-up
capital of banks would be unwise, not only as regarded
the banks, but as regarded the interests of the public. It
was certainly true that the principle of the trade of bank-
ing was that it was carried on with the capital of other
persons ; and in that respect there was a marked distinc-
tion between banks and other trading establishments,
except insurance offices. If you limited the liability of a
bank, you limited the credit, which was its sole and true
capital, which was that on which it traded, arid on which it
induced people to deposit their money ; and, therefore,
it was for the public interest that banks should be of a
sound and stable character, and that not only should de-
positors be protected, but that in times of pressure there
should be no doubt of the stability of banks, and no d'.ffi-
culty in the circulation of their capital. It was true that
' in former times the Bank of England did oppose the
establishment of joint-stock banks. He did not know on
what principle that opposition was based, bat he was
sure that the Bank of England acted on a sound princi-
ple, and from a desire that a sound system of banking
should prevail in the country : for the difficulties of the
Bank of England were very great when banking was in
discredit throughout the country. The argument that
mismanagements was confined to concerns which were
conducted on the principle of unlimited liability could
not, he thought, be maintained. It had occurred under
both systems; and when it was said that a prudent man
would not enter a concern carried on under unlimited
liability, the facts disproved it ; for many of the most
wealthy men and men of large capital were members cf
joint-stock banks in London, and the same was the case
in Liverpool. As far as prudence was concerned, he con-
fessed that he should not himself like to belong to a con-
cern carried on under unlimited liability, unless the
capital was so large as to meet every liability which
might occur under any state of mismanagement. An
argument had been used in favour of the limited liability
of banks which certainly had weight with him, and it
was this—that in the event of mismanagement in a bank
under unlimited liability, and the shareholders becom-
ing cognisant of it, yet knowing that in case they exposed
the affairs of the bank they would probably stop its credit
and bring its whole liability on themselves, they would
be rendered timid, and they would not have courage to
deal with the mismanagement and bring it under exami
nation. There was some force in that argument, and in
the supposition that if the liability was limited the share-
holders would not feel that timidity, and the mismanage.
ment would not be allowed to go as far as it otherwise
would. There was force in that argument, and when he
said he was not prepared to support the motion of the
hon. and learned gentleman, he meant to say that if he
had proposed that there should be a large reserve of paid
up capital, as was the case in the colonial banks, of
double or treble the amount of the liability of the
banks, he should have been happy to have supported it.
There was an objection in his mind to the mixing up
sound with unsound tanks in the same neighbourhood,
because persons would be obliged to trust one or the
other of the banks, and so expose themselves to undue
competition and perhaps to loss. An argument bad been
used which certainly astonished him, and that was that
unlimited liability was not sufficient for the protection
of persons engaged in joint-stock banks. Now, notwith-
standing that, unfortunately, in the last 25 years, since
joint-stock banks had existed, there had been deplorable
failures in these concerns, he did not recollect but two
instances—that of the Glarnorganshire Bank which paid
1.87, or 19s. in the pound, and the British Bank—in
which the depositors had not been paid is full. That was
an argument in favour of unlimited liability. As to the
argument with regard to the prudent management of
banks, that applied equally to these under unlimited as
under limited liability. The want of proper management
was the great difficulty in reference to joint-stock banks
in London. Yod could get directors who were orna-
cneetil, aristocratic, with good names, bet the difficulty
was to get good managers. It would still be as difficult
to obtain them if limited liability was adopted as in the
case of unlimited liability. He recollected that, when
there was a desire to establish certain jeint-stock banks,
owing to the success which had attended those which
existed in London, the great difficulty was to get mana-
gers, and one or tmo of the companies applied to clerks
in the Bank of England, some of whom had accepted the
offices of managers of those banks, and it was a compli-
ment to the mode of conducting the business of the Bank
of England that such applications had been made.
Still that was the case. He also was of opinion that
the prudent management of joint-stock banks was de-
rived from the excellent traditions of the mode of con-
ducting business in the Bank of England and by the
Lombard-street bankers. It could not be expected
that that principle would be carried out it banks were
extended all over the country ; but you wculd have
weak and ill-managed banks, and in periods of
pressure I.ke that which had just occurred, in-
stead of one or two pint-suck banks failing,
they woul Igo down by the dozen. F r these reasons
he desired that the proposition of the hon. and learned
gentleman should be modified by the insertion of *ords
which would require, not only that in joint stock banks
a large capital should be paid up, but that there should
bo a large reserve,

The CHANCEL LOR, of the EXCHEQUER said he
conEs,eci that he quite concurred in the observations of
the hon. and learned member who brought forward this

motion with respect to the form in which it N‘as ex-

pressed. The muticu wag in the form of an abstract

resolution, which was always a form of motion which the
twilit) was cautious in aoceding to ; and it proposed
"that the principle of unlimited Lability enforced up n
joint stock tanks by the present law confers upon such
establishments a species of credit dangerous in charact, r
and prejudicial to their management, and is otherwise
injurioui to the interests of the public." Now if h's hon.
and learned friend had exoresAed in his motion that the
present law, which enforced on joint stock banks the prin-
ciple of unlimited liabilit
of doubtful ex y, and left them no option, was
proposition thep ediency and ought to be altered, such a
(the Chancellor of the liorise night have entertained ; but he
himself b Exchequer) was unwilling to bind
y a formula which declared that the present law
conferred on such establishments a species of credit dan-:
gerons in character and prejudicial to the interests of the
public. The inference which would flow from these worm's
would be that the house ought to prohibit unlimited lia
bility in the shareholders in joint stock banks, and that
it was imperative that limited_ liability should be adopter 4
for, if unlimited liability led
.to such dangerous conse-

quences, it was the duty of Parliament to enforce the
principle of the limited liability of uhareholdere in such
banks. To that conclusion he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) for one objected, without some further informa-
tion being obtained on the subject, and tb:refore he could
not agree with his hon. and learned friend or vote for his
resolution. Tee question was one of interest aed import-
ance at the present moment, and perhaps the house would
allow him to express his opinionupon it. One distinction,
it appeared to him, bad not been sufficiently adverted
to in that debate, and that was that the functions of
banking were twofold. One of its functions was that of
issue, and the other that of deposit. It seemed to him
that there was a great difference in dealing with the
question of theunlimited liability of shareholders in refer-
ence to those two functions. When a country bank issued
notes, which were not a legal tender like those of the
Bank of England, nevertheless, in the district in which
the bank was situated these notes passed current from
hand to hand, and practically discharged the function of
money,' no one: had the option of accepting or refus-
ing them. Therefore a country bank note passed oarrent
not on the credit of the person who tendered it in pay-
ment, but on that of the bank from which it issued, and
a tradesman in a country town who took a note offered
to him in payment for his goods was not in a condition
to refuse it, and he took it not on the credit of the person
tendering it, but on that of the bank which issued it.
He was not like a depositor, and unless it was required
that there should be a deposit of securities equal to the
issue of notes, or that notes should be issued only against
bullion, by a system placed under the custody of public
functionaries, it would not be reasonable to deprive the
holders of such notes of the security of the unlimited lia
bility of the shareholders of a bank. With regard to that
part of the functions of banking be altogether dissented
from the doctrine of his hon. and learned friend, that the
principle of unlimited liability bad given rise to a system
injurious to the public interests. On the contrary, it had
given rise to a species of security to which the public
were entitled, and of which it would be unjust to deprive
them. However, the argument of his hon. and learned
friend applied not to that class of the business of banking
but to the deposit part of its functions. No doubt many
joint-stock banks might be considered as mercantile
agencies, and when we applied to other mercantile
associations the principle of limited liability, many
reasons might be fairly alleged for the including
of joint stock banks, so far as regarded that portion
of their business, on the principle of limited liability.
But he wishci to call the attention of the house to
the manner in which that privilege was introduced
into our legislation. We begin with that class of joint-
stock projects in which a large expenditure wasinvolved,
such as canals and railways, and the argument on which
the house proceeded, and on which 't authorised an
especial statute derogating from the general law, was
that it was desirable to encourage enterprise, and that
the best mode of doing so was by adopting the principle
of limited liability. In that way that principle was first
introduced into our legislation, first in our local legisla-
tion, and then in a general statute applicable to all cases
of general enterprise, and it was always understood that
the argument on which it was founded was that the
adoption of such a principle tended to encourage mer-
cantile enterprise. That argument, however, did not
apply to banking. There was no object in encouraging
enterprise in that directior, but it was rather an object
to check the tendency to speculation of that kind than
to increase it ; and he believed that one effect of limited
liability would be in some degree to repress undue credit,
inasmuch as the knowledge that various wealthy persons
were among the shareholders of a joint-stock bank would
induce discJuntere to look merely at the name of the
bank on a bill, to be indifferent about the value of the
bit itself, and not to inquire into its credit and quality.
It was not an unfair argument, therefore, to urge that
if the liability of shareholders was limited, and the credit
of a bank was less comprehensive, people would look
rather to the nature and quality of a bill itself than to the
bank which had endorsed it, which would tend to intro-
duce a wholesome caution in such transactions. That
was an argument, however, for further consideration,
and looking to the argument of his hon. frieed, the
member for Southampton, who spoke with so much
ability in the debate, that the majority of joint-stock
banks which bad failed had proved to be solvent, it
was an argument in favour of the maintenance of
the present law, and for not abandoning that security
which the depositors now possessed. The suggestion
he had to make to the house was that if they agreed
to the motion which he should submit to them ou
Friday next for the appointment of a select committee
to inquire into the question of banking generally, they
should leave the question of limited or unlimited liability
with respect to joint-stock banks and other banks to be
considered by that committee. It was a subject which
properly fell within the scope of that inquiry; and, as
the question of the security to be taken for the issue of
notes could hardly be considered by itself, and without
reference to the question of general mercantile agencies,
it seemed to him that the course he now proposed was
more likely to lead to a satisfactory conclusion than the
motion of his hon. and learned friend. He should vote
against it.
Mr. MALIN'S urged that the main cause of the disasters
which had recently occurred to joint-stock banks was the
maintenance of the principle of unlimited liability. It was
said that the business of banking was different to that of
other trades, because it was a trading with the capital of
others, but there was no difference between tradingon credit
and the capital of other persons, which was the case inevery
trade. Again, it was said that there ought to be a difference
made between the case of joint-stock banks under limited
and unlimited liability, and that in case of the former
there should, be a large reserve of capital. The hon. mem
ber for Southampton said he could not trust an unlimited
liability bank ; and .would any man now join a joint-stock
bank established on the principle of unlimited liability ?
Was it not desirable that prudent and cautious men should
b 3 connected with these concerns? and that could only be
done by adopting the principle of limited liability. He
agreed that the motion of his hon. and learned friend was
not put in a tangible shape. Every one was agreed that
the present state of things was unsatisfactory, and the
house on2ht to be glad of the opportunity of considering
whether some steps should not be taken for improving the
banking system of the country.
Mr. T. HANKEY said that if he thought that the
motion of his hon. and learned friend be interpreted
into a compulsory law to compel the adoption of limited
liability by all joint-stock banks, he would not support it;
but he understood that the motion left it open!to joint-stock
banks to adopt the law as it already stood with regard to
other joint-stock companies. He had hoard no argument
which showed that it would be unadvisable that the law of
limited liability should be applied to joint stock banks,
which he believed would cause greater confidence in
them, and induce capitalists to embark in them. He
begged to move as an amendment, " That the present
law, enforcing the unlimited liability of shareholders in
joint stock banks, requires alteration." Ile believed
these words would meet the views of his hon. friend, and
would be in accordance with the resolution which the
home had already adopted.
Mr. CRAUFURD seconded the amendment,
Mr. BUCHANAN said as the subject was ore of so
much importance, and involved so much difference of
opinion, he thought the house would act prudently in
adopting the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, and referring the question to a committee,
Mr. HEADLAM, in replying, observed that he did
noc think the motion ought to be got rid of by special
pleading, and expressed a hepe that the house would
pronounce an opinion that the law required alteration.
Believing that the reference of the matter to a committee
would be perfectly nugatory, he could not consent to the
adoption of sun a course. He, however, had no objec-
tion to adopt the words of the amendment suggested by
his hon. friend.
The original motion was then put and negatived, and
the amendment was put as an original motion; on which
the house divided. The numbers were :
For the motion
Against it ....
Majority .

47
118
---71

THE BEVERLEY ELECTION—PROSECUTION
OF MR. GLOVER.
On the motion of Mr. J. A. SMITH, the resolution
which upon the 31 of August last was reported from the
select committee on the Beverley election petition, was
read. The hon. gentleman then moved, in conformity
with that resolution, that Mr. Attorney-General be
directed to prosecute Edward Auchmuty Glover, Esq ,
in respect of the declarations made and si.ined by
him under the act of the Ist and 21 of Victoria,
cap. 48 ; that the preper officers of this house and the
shorthand writer attending this house have leave to
attend and give evidence, and to produce such papers and
documents as may be required on the trial of the said
Edward Auchmnty Glover, Esq.
The motion was agreed to.
TRANSPORTS TO INDIA.
On the motion of Sir C. NAPIER, a return was ordered
of the names of transports taken up for India, specifying
whether steamers or sailing vessel; their tonnav, if
steamers their horse power, the number of men each car-

ried, rate of passage money, the date of sailing, and the
date of arrival as far as is known.
COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC PETITIONS.
On the motion of Mr. BONHAM CARTER, the following
hon. members were appointed and nominated as the select
committee on public petitions :—Mr. Bonham Carter, Mr.
Thorneley, Mr. Scott, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Owen Stanley,
Mr. Henry Austin Bruce, Mr. Gregson, Mr. De Vere,
Mr. Wise, Mr. !Dillwyn, Mr. Charles Forster, Mr. Gard,
Mr. Davison, Mr. Woods, and Mr. Taverner John Miller.
Three to be the quorum.
NEW WRIT FOR MAYO.
Colonel FRENCH moved " That Mr. Speaker do issue
his warrant for the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make
out a new writ for the electing of a knight of the shire to
serve i❑ the present Parliament for the county of Mayo, in
the room of Goorge Henry Moore, Esq , whose election has
been determined to be void."

Colonel NORTH, as a member of the committee which
sat during the last session, opposed the motion, on the
ground that the writ ought not to issue until the result of
the trial which had been directed by the house should be
made known.

Colonel FRENCH said the resolution to which the house
hid come was that the writ should be suspended during
the last session; and he called upon the noble lord at the
head of the Government to put a stop to the attempt now
ma le to overrule the privileges of the people.
Lord PA.LMERSTON said that when the question was
last under the consideration of the house he agreed with
other hon. members that the writ should not then issue,
and that it ought to be suspended until after the trial had
taken place, the expectation being that it would take place
during the autumn. The prosecution, however, bad been
postp,n,:d, and it appeared to him doubtful whetherit was
right and proper to continue to withhold the writ and de-
prive the people of Mayo of their representation. He
thought the objection which existed wasno longer tenable,
and entertained no objection to the motion. (Hear.)
The motion was then agreed to.

SIR HENRY LIAVELOCK—THE QUEEN'S
MESSAGE.
O❑ the motion of Lord PALMERSTON the house resolved
itsjlf into committee for the purpose of considering the
following message from her Majesty

- - -
" Victoria Regina—Her Majesty being desirous of con-
ferring a signal mark of her favour and approbation on
Major-General Sir Henry Havelock, Bart., K.C.8., for the
eminent and distinguished services rendered by him in
command of a body of British and native troops in India,

and particularlarly for the gallant and successful operations
undertaken for the relief of the garrison of Lucknow, re-
commends to the House of Lords to concur in enabling her
Majesty to make provision for securing to Major-General
S.r Henry Havelock a provision of 1,0001. per annum for
the term of his natural life." (Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON then rose to perform a duty most
agreeable to himself, and one the performance of which, he
was quite sure, would be gratifying to the house, and that
was to move a resolution in accordance with her Majesty's
recommendation. (Cheers.) It was almost unnecessary
for him to say a single word in recommendation of the vote,
which would afford every member of the house the highest
gratification. (Cheers.) It had been said that India was
fertile in heroes. India had also been fertile in those
events which had given to British subjects in that country
opportunities of displaying those great and heroic qualities
which redounded so much to the hononr of the nation.
Amongst those who had of late so much distinguished
themselves few had been more fortunate or so fortunate in
that respect as Sir H, Havelock. (Cheers.) Sir Henry.
Havelock was an officer who had served with great distinc-
lion in almost all the operations which of late years had
taken place in India—having gained great distinction in
the Burmese and Afighanistan wars. Wherever, in short,
British troops had been called upon to act for the mainte-
nance of the honour, dignity, and interests of the country,
there Sir Henry Havelock had held a most prominent and
distinguished position. (Cheers.) During the recent ope-
rations to which the vote now before the house more i m me*
diately referred, Sir H. Havelock had in the short space of
of about two months gained nine or ten victories by a very
inferior against a very superior numerical force, and in the
course of those brilliant operations he not only defeated 9
or 10 times, but captured about 70 pieces of cannon. Tho
two men who had gained the greatest and most signal
military successes during the recent military operations in
India were Sir H. Havelock and Gen. Wilson. (Cheers.)
Sir H. Havelock belonged to the Queen's service, and there-
fore her Majesty had recommended the grant now proposed.
General Wilson belonged to the East India Company's ser-
vice, and the company claimed the right of granting to that
gallant officer, the captor of Delhi, that amount which her
Majesty now recommended the house to vote to Sir Henry
Havelock. Her Majesty had conferred on these two gallant
officers the dignity of baronet, and had also conferred on
them that other distinction which was greater than any
title—he meant that military order which was an object of
the highestambition, and the greatest stimulas to the ex-
ertions of every soldier. It was usual when a military
order was conferred for the Sovereign to invite Parliament
to partake in the most agreeable of all duties—that of ac-
knowledging and rewarding the services of those who had
so distinguished themselves. (Cheers.) But in rewarding
such services Parliament ought also to commemorate the
actions of others who had not had the good fortune to per-
form any such specific exploits. They ought not to forget
the chivalrous conduct of General Outran, who having by
superior rank and position obtained the command of the
troops, yet with that delicacy of feeling which was the
concomitant of true courage eeleutarily abstained from
taking the command from Sir Henry Havelock, and placed
himself as a volunteer under the orders of that gallant
officer—(cheers)—in order that the man who had under-
gone such fatigues, dangers, and exertions in his endea-
vours to relieve Lucknow should not be deprived by the
arrival of a superior officer of the glory of completing the
duty which he had undertaken. (Cheers.) It was im-
possible to enumerate the names of all those who had
acquired distinction during the recent calamitous events,
but he might particularly mention those of Greathed, Eyre,
Salkeld, and Home--(cheers)—together with the names of
two gallant officers who had lived and died in the service
of the country—Neill and Nicholson—whose loss the coun-
try must very deeply deplore. (Hear, hear.) Then there
was Sir John Lawrence--(cheers)—a most able administra-
tor, who had in the most admirable manner organised the
military and civil resources of the province under his con-
trol, and thus rendered the greatest services to this empire.
(Cheers.) General Wheeler, who had been placed in the
most difficult and dangerous position, had unfortunately
fallen in the service of his country, but his name would be
held in remembrance as well as those of Chamberlayne,
Cotton, and Edwards. (Cheers.) He might go on adding
to the list, for there was hardly a single officer who had
been called upon during these unfortunate events to per-
form his duty who had not acted in a manner which en-
titled him to have his name enrolled in the annals of the
military fame of this country. (Cheers.) But at the
present moment his duty was confined to the resolution
relating to the grant to General Havelock, which he now
begged to submit to the house. (Cheers.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON had great gratification in secoed-
ing the motion which had been proposed in terms so just
and proper by the noble lord. (Cheers.) He entirely con-
curred with the noble lord in the belief that there could
be no difference of opinion as to the propriety of the step
now proposed. On the eantrary, ho believed that all parties
in the house cordially concurred in the resolution. (Cheers.)
If any doubt could exist on the subject it must be
whether the grant was commensurate with the public
feeling. (Hear, hear.) He felt great satisfaction at
the manner in which the noble lord had coupled the names
of Sir Henry Havelock and General Wilson. The public
gratitude was due to ono commander as much as the
other. (Cheers.) Considering the climate, the time of
the year, the number of battles fought, and the distance
marched, he believed that the progress of Sir Henry Ha-re-
lock and his devoted band of heroes deserved to be re-
corded amongst the most brilliant military achievements.
(Cheers.) Not less conspicuous had been the services
of General Wilson and his forces at Delhi. Although
the war there was of a different nature, the troops were ex-
posed to the same kind of hardships as those of Sir H.
Havelock. They also had to encounter the difficulties
ari-ing from the climate, and the incessant, and almost
daily attacks of the enemy, whose force was greatly supe-
rior to his own. And it should also be borne in mind that
the enemy were not only enormously superior in point of
numbers, but- were armed with weapons which we had put
into their hands; and yet, although the relative supe-
riority, man for man, of the Europeans over •the native
Indians was as great at the present time as in former days,
notwithstanding thedisoipline which they had been taught,
it must be remembered that throughout the contest the
native troops had shown great skill and power in that im-
portant arm of war, the artillery. (Hear, hear.) If the
authority of the Crown in India should shortly be restored
—and he trusted that would he the case—it would be
mainly owing to the heroic valour of the troops under Sir
Henry Havelock and General Wilson, who, notwithstand-
ing their slender numerical strength, had succeeded in
stemming that torrent of revolt by which British power in
India at one time seemed to be in danger of being over-
whelmed. (Cheers ) He was glad that the noble lord had
done justice to the great and gonerou3 conduct of General
Outrun. (Cheers.) Ho believed that there never was an
incident more creditable to the honour and good feeling of
a British soldier than the generosity shown by that di3•
tinguishod man, in the order of the day issued by him,
wherein ho abandoned the position which he had the right
to claim, and resolved that Sir Henry Havelock should not
be interrupted in his honourable and well-deserved pro-
gress. (Cheers.) It was his earnest hope and prayer that
the next accounts from India would bring the intelligence
that Sir Henry Havelock had entirely succeeded in his
grand object of rescuing Lucknow from the imminent
danger in which it had been placed. (Cheers.) Let them,
while they were paying just honour to the men who com-
manded, not forget the heroic gallantry of the forces they
had under them. (Hear, hear.) Nothing but the heroic
bravery of the forces under Generals Havelock and
Wilson could have surmounted the difficulties by which
they were surrounded. He hoped he should not be unduly
encroaching upon what was no doabt the province and the
proper duty of her Majesty's Government, but he could
not refrain from saying that, considering how diminished
these two little bands were, considering how few still sur-
vived, who had either gone through the whole siege of
Delhi, or had followed Havelock in his triumphant march
--he could not help feeling a strong impression that it
might be considered not inexpedient by those who achited
the crown that some distinguished honour and reward
should be conferred on the remnant of those gallant bands,
to whom this country owed a debt of gratitude' which it
was impossible for us ever to pay. It was with these feel-
ings that he heartily concurred in the proposition made by
the noble lord, and he begged leave to second it.
Mr. BRISCOE need scarcely say how cordially he con-
curred in what had fallen from the noble lord and the right
p making a suggestion,
bly received. He wished
that the pension should
htwoohnai
which
h(bi ahtroat .tt
hr;
rtueetsdohleu
mightio resolution
couldbae
clausefnaovt
favourably received. He wished
to add to the resolution a clause
help
al
after the death of Sir H. Havelock be enjoyed by the next
successor to the title.

1 The CHAIRMAN intimated that it was not competent
for the hon. member to move an amendment increasing
the sum proposed.
Mr. BRISCOE said he would not move it, but he would
throw it cut as a suggestion for the consideration of the First
Lord of the Treasury. It might not generally be known that
Gen. Havelock was between 60 and 70 years of age; he had
a son who had received the Victoria cross, and therefore,
considering the danger to which the life of Sir Henry
Havelock was exposed, ho thought it would be a consola-
tion for him to know that there would be some provision
made for his son, without which provision a title would be
a very inadequate reward. Gen. Havelock, indeed, might
almost be said to have preserved to this country the empire
of India. He would not say a word on that part of the
subject, but he heartily suggested that the pension should
be extended to the life of the son. The annuity to Lord
Gough was 2,0001.; and it was to go to the next successors
to the title. He did not think there was a single indivi-
dual who heard him who did not concur in the suggestion
that he made. (Hear, hear.)

Admiral WALCOTT, as a member of the sister service,
could not help expressing his admiration of the splendid
services of General Havelock. He did not know wbioh to
admire most, the rapid marches and glorious victories of
Havelock or the self-denial of Outram. The noble lord at
the head of the Government had expressed in terms so
graceful, so spirited,
and so applicable, his sense of the
pereiees of the officers and mon, that it would ill befit him
to enlarge on that subject ; bat' there was one topic which
the noble lord omitted, and which he was sure would com-
mand the response of the house, and that was the sublime
'heroism. which had led women to unhesitatingly sacrifice
.their own lives rather than submit to dishonour. He had
but one of hit. word to add and in that he believed be car-
ried with him the feeling of his
profession, that an oppor-
tunity might be afforded to the blue-jackets to imitate the
conduct of the red-jackets.
solution were to pass without a military
Sir W. CODRINGTON should be very sorry if this re-
his belief that the feeling of the entire profession was in
unison with the strong feeling of the house on this subject.
man expressing
Nothing that they had heard of could exceed the gallantry,
the determination, ansl the constancy under the extreme
of difficulties that had been characteristic both of th©
marching, of the endurance and of the positive fighting of
General liavelock's division and of the troops before Delhi
'—who were under perpetual attacks, not only while they
were under the command of General Wilson, but while
they were under General Barnard, who had the greatest
difficulties to encounter. He started amid the revolt, when
there were not fit preparations for moving troops, but he
and General Anion were determined that the troops
should march to Delhi. When they arrived before Delhi
Gen. Barnard saw the enemy in possession of an important
position, and although heavy fighting and marching had
taken place, be induced his troops to take from the enemy
the position they thou held, and that position had been
held by-our troops from that time to the present, and was
the effectual means of &curing the capture of Delhi. Gen.
B iruatd was at acked ten times in less than 20 days, and
when it was rt c ailected tit it there was a constant accession
of mutineers into Delhi, it would bs seen that he was
worthy of the gratitude of his country. It was in couse-
quence of Gen. Barnard's maintaining that position under
all these difficulties that Gen. Wilson was able to take the
city. So strongly did Gen. Wilson feel the difficulty, that
it was a question with him whether, if ho did not get re-
lieved, be should fall back. He said, then they mnat go
back =to the officer who obtained that position. Having
waited with patience, with bravery, and determination,
and having received his supplies, nothing could be finer
than the preparations and the assault of Delhi. We had to
deplore a great loss—the loss of General Nicholson and of
other great officers, to whom the house and the country
owed the greatest possible gratitude. We had also to de- •
plore the loss of GAD. Neill. Ho had come from service in I
the Crimea, where he was in command of the Turkish Con-

tiugent, and he went as soon as possible to India, where he
was placed in a difficult command. Hejoined Havelock in the
expedition for the relief of Lucknow, where he fell. To all
these officers and men the country owed much gratitude,
and it was with the greatest pleasure he found that Gene-
rale Wilson and Havelock were to have Delhi and Luck-
now added to their titles.
Mr. WHITE said the house had been addressed by mem-
bers of the military and naval profession, and he would
addrese it as a loerchant. It ill became the dignity of that
house to propose so small a pension, considering the great
obligations the country was under to General Havelock.
(Hear, hear.) General Havelock was now some 63 or 61
years of age, and saying nothing of the danger to which he
was exposed in the practice of his profession, he did not
think an insurance office would value his pension at more
than three years' purchase. He thought such a sum was
utterly inadequate to the services performed, and be be-
lieved that would be the opinion of every man in the
country. General Havelock had not come from the Crimea,
from a campaign indifferently conducted under aristocra-
tic leaders, or he might have received a greater reward.
Lord PALMERSTON could not allow the expression of
the hon. member regarding the Crimea to pass unnoticed.
He thought the hon. member must be in a state of entire
ignorance of what passed in that campaign ; ho must have
forgotten the battle of the Alma and the battle of Inker-
man. He must have forgotten those long months of pri-
vation, of danger, and of difficulty, to which the army was
subject in the trenches before the Sebastopol. He must
have forgotten that the army, having landed at Old Fort,
and having undergone the privation for two or three
months of not having those ordinary conveniences which
even in a campaign attended the soldier—he must have
forgotten that the soldiers, without baggage, performed
their duty in a manner honourable to the country. Our
army in the Crimea covered itself with honour, and he
disliked to hoar an Englishman express himself as the hon.
member had done. (Cheers.) That army, which began with
difficulties unknown in war, ended in a state of perfect
discipline, and was the admiration of the other armies in
the field. (Hear, hoar.)
Mr. WHITE—God forbid that I should say one word
against the gallantry of the British army iu the Crimea. I
quite concur in what the noble lord has said in its praise.
I should have been unworthy of the name of an English.
man to have expressed a contrary opinion. What I said I
meant in a strategtic point of view, and I was merely re-
peating the opinion of Germans and others wuo have writ-
ten on that campaign.
Lord PALMERSTON said he too would look at the
campaign in a strategic point of view. The two armies,
French and English, besieged a fortress, in which there
was an army equal, if not superior, in numbers to their
own, that fortress having a vast accumulation of all the
materials of war. The allies were at a distance from their
resources, but they conquered ; they took the place, which
was considered impregnable; and instead of failing in a
strategic point of view, they gained an advantage which
enabled the allies to conclude a peace with Russia, by which
Russia engaged not to have a naval arsenal in the Black
Sea, and instead of having a fleet of 26 or 28 sail of the
line there, was bound to have only 10 small ve,sels for po-
lice and customs. He thought that his hon. friend, if he
would allow him to call him so--(a laugh)—would, on re-
flection, see that he was altogether wrong.
Mr. F. CR.OSSLEY was understood to express an opin-
ion that the reward to General Havelock, as measured in
money, was too small.
The resolution was then put and unanimously agreed to.
The house then went into committee of supply; Mr.
Fitzroy in the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer
to Sir D. Norreys, said it was not intended to take any
veto in supply before Christmas. The vote just agreed to
was a charge on the consolidated fund.
A formal resolution having been agreed to that supply
be granted to her Majesty the house resumed.
BANK ISSUES INDEMNITY BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill. On clause 2,
Mr. MALINS remarked that by the letter of the Govern-
ment the issues were unlimited. According to the returns
in the Gazette, if this letter had not been issued the amount
of notes in reserve would have been only 280,0001. He dis-
approved of the proviso that 10 per cent. discount should
be charged as long as there was any over-issue. It was a
larger rate of interest than had ever been known in this
country since tho bank wasfounded in 1607. Mr. Chapman,
in his evidence before the committee, said he did not think
any new trade could becarried on if there was such a rate of
interest. Did Government mean to proclaim that all new
transactions ware to be stopped for the next 12 or 15
months ? The consequence of this high rate of interest had
been that produce had fallen ruinously low. The price of
iron rails in South Wales had fallen from Si. a ton to 51.
By the return in Friday's Gazette it appeared that the gold
in the Bank was 7,356,4671., and that the notes in the
hands of the public were 21,102,4301. The gold in the
banking department was 300,0001. or 400,000/. ; the re-
mainder was in the issue department, and was locked up.
In the appendix to the report of the committee there was
a table showing the circulation. He had carefully looked
it over to ascertain how long it was since the notes held by
the public had gone below 18,000,0001., and he found that
had occurred only once, in December, 1841, when it was
17,803,0001., and the following week it was 18 227,0001.
He considered, therefore, that it was improbable, if not
impossible, that the circulation should fall below
18,00,00001. The average circulation being thus about 21
millions, the amount of gold kept by the Bank against
that sum being 7 millions, and the smallest amount below
which the notes in possession of the public could be re-
duced being 18 millions, it was clear that the stock of
gold in the Bank could never be reduced below 3 millions,
or 3 millions and a half. What necessity was there, then,
for distressing the commercial community, by keeping the
rate of interest at an unprecedented height, in order to
preserve the gold from being sent out of the country ? The
experience of the ten years before the passing of Sir R.
Peel's showed that the minimum average of notes in pos-
session of the public was 16 millions, and since then it
had never been less than 18 millions. They had thus
gone on for twenty years with the notes never below 14
millions ; and why then should they abstract from the
public a rate of interest so prejudicial to all the great in-
terests of the country ? For when the Bank rate of inte-
rest was even 7 per cent., the interest actually paid by the
shopkeeper and the farmer was always from 3 to 5 per
cent. more. And what was the effect of the present state
of things ? They might read in the daily papers, and in
the trade reports every Monday morning ; from which it ap-
peared that there was hardly a mill in Manchester at the
present moment that was working full time. He did not
deny that the monetary collapse in America might have
had some share in bringing about our troubles, but that
share was a trifle compared with the effects produced by a
fueling being univossal, that every prudent man ought to
suspend his trading operations so long as the rate of interest
remained so high. (Hoar.) It had been said the other night
that the profits of trade would never pay a rate of interestas
high as 10 per cent.-- why then maintain that rate at such a
point? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that be
was only following the precedent of 1847; but what was
that precedent? The rate of interest in 1817 was 54 per
cent., and the Government authorised the Bank to infringe
the law provided they charged S per cent. The public would
never have tolerated discounts at that price but for the re-
laxation of the law ; but the operation of the act had been
gradually to familiarise them the seven and even eight per
cent., although it had not enabled them to bear a high rate
one whit the better. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of mort-
gages. Tho land, they knew, only yielded 3 per cent.; and
how could they pay 10? If that rate were kept, the land
must, in the co rue of a few years, change its proprietors.
Take again railway property. It appeared that there were
debentures upon railways amounting to 160 millions, a
large portion of which required to be renewed every month.
Those railways could either not get their debentures re-
newed, or they must submit to ruinous terms. The evil
effects of the present state of things upon the agricultural,
the railway, the shipping, and the commercial community,
could hardly therefore bo exaggerated; and in the mean-
time there was not the slightest necessity for it; the con-
vertibility of the note not being in the slightest degree en-
dangered. Twice, however, the Bank had been in danger
of stoppage for want of notes, and because they had locked
up so large an amount of gold in the issue department. He
had therefore moved that the proviso of tho clause before
the committee be expunged, and then the issuing of notes
would be left wholly within the discretion of the Bank.
SirJ. TREL A.WNEYaaid that the effect of the hon. and
learned gentleman's doctrine WAS that the Bank should
carry on its discounting operations in a manner advantage.
ous to the agricultural, the railway, and the commercial
community; and that if it sustained any loss, the British
public should come forward and pay. In 1844 he (Sir J.
Trelawney) was adisciple of the hon. gentleman the member
for Davenport, who published an able series of articles in
the Economist in favour of free trade in banking. The fact
was, however, that the house was performing a sort of
political quadrille. They had given up the idea of a slid-
ing; scale with regard to corn, and now they wished to re-
tain it with respect to gold. If they were going to have a
Bank committee, they ought to have upon it some person
who was a pure sceptic—some one who was not pretenti-
ous, and did not pretend to be well-informed, He was
such a person. (Loud laughter.) He wished tee be informed,
and the onus of informing him lay with the house. He be-
lieved that they had no diagnosis, and that they were all
at sea. It had been well said that "fools rushed in where
angels feared to tread," and he was afraid they had done
that too often, not only with regard to questions of cur-
rency, but with regard to all matters relating to social and
political economy.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
subscribe to all the doctrines which had been laid down by
the hon. baronet ; but he so far agreed with him that he
thought it would not be advisable for the house to expunge
the proviso to which the hon. and learned gentleman ob-
jected. In 1847 the Government inserted, and in his (Sir G.
Le wis's) opinion very properly, a condition in the authority
which they gave the Bank to infi Inge the law, namely, that
the rate of interest should not be less than 8 per cent. so
long as the Bank availed itself of the privilege which the
Government was willing to concede. At that time the
rate of interest was 51 per cent., and the Government in-
sisted that if the law was infringed the Bank should not
lend money at less than eight per cent. The rate was ac-
cordingly raised that amount, and to that amount it stood
for about three weeks. In the present else the government
had stipulated that the Bank should not, if it infringed the
law, take leis than the amount of interest than current—
namely, 10 per cent. The rate of 10 per cent. was not ar-
bitrarily fixed by the government; the Government only
in point of fact, assumed that the extra issue should not be
at a less rite than that which was demanded at the time
by the Bank. The moment the Bank found its affairs so
far re-establishes as to render it unneco-sary to overstep
the law it would be able to fix the rate of discount at any
point it might s o fit ; but it certainly ems, trod desirable,
while the law continued to bo broken, that the rate taken
should not be below the point it had reached when the
Government issued the letter. Ho (Sir G. Lewis) under-
stood that the reserve was gradually increasing, so that it
would not be an over-sanguine expectation to hope that it
would soon be able to dispense with the privilege which
had been conceded to it. Oa Saturday last the reserve,
'including the gold and silver in banking department, was
3,200,0001., and on Monday it was upwards of 3,t09,000/.,
or more than a million and a half beyond the extra issue of
2 n,i'lien notes. lie (the right hon. gentleman) hoped that
al
hsreducedus if
the
belowank
ft
uantstate
totfh tehii
inagt
us
ria‘ ur
obit
eporfo gdries3:o,uani

l 0 per coot. it would also be enabled to take that ZPI
ifear, hea-.) For it was a comp!etofallAcy to suppose that
,he Bank fixed the universal rate of discount. If the deal-

ings of the country weresuch that it was profitable to n.oneY
lenders to lend at 10 per cent,., they would no doubt do so
without asking the portni,sion of the Bank. The very fact
that the prevailing terms of discount were below 10 per
cent. was a sufficient proof that the rate fixel by the Bank
was not an arbitrary one, but that it merely followed the
natural course of commerce. (Cheers.) The hon. and
learned gentlemen said that the landowners and railway
proprietors were injuriously affected; but the mercantile
ratefof interest was not the rate which necessarily fixed the
rate of all other interests in the country. (Hear.) Would
there be a treater proof of the independence of rate of dis-
counts charged on mercantile bills than the present price of
Consols? (Cheers.) If a person wished to invest in the
funds at the present moment, he would certainly net get
10 per cent. for his money. (" Hear, hear," and a lalt,h.)
The rate of interest on mortgages and real security was also