The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-09 00:00:00

vice we determined on engaging these 1,300 extra ship-
wrights for that period accordingly; and if at the end of
the first six months, he had informed us that the men would
be wanted for six months more, we should then have
thought that a sufficient justification for our taking the
course now adopted by our successors. That is a matter of
which the Admiralty must be the best judges. If they are
prepared to assure the house that the work in the dockyards
is in such a state that it is desirable for the interests of the
public service, and not merely on grounds, as it would
rather appear, of private charity, that these men should be
kept on for the whole financial year, then I certainly will
not offer the slightest objection to their proposal. The
noble lord next stated that I claimed credit for ships which
really belonged to my predecessor. Sir, I don't know of
anything that has passed or that has fallen from me on
which this assertion is based ; but I must in the most distinct
manner repudiate any intention ever to make any such
claim. (Cheers.) And let me add, that I think we have
had a little too much party feeling and party views mixed
with our discussions relating to the navy ; and I quite agree
with my noble friend opposite that the more this is avoided
the better. (Renewed cheers.) lam content with having
during the period I had the honour to be at the head of
the Admiralty endeavoured to do my duty to the country
as well as I could. (Cheers.) What I have done has been
most kindly acknowledged, and by none more than by
some distinguished members of the present Government.
I have no wish to detract from the merit due to other
men; and if party discussions on this subject have
reluctantly on my part been forced upon me, I, for one,
do not want to renew that of which we have had
too much already. This great question of restoring the
strength of the British navy, and keeping it up to the point
at which it ought to be maintained, is one of such para-
mount national importance and intense interest at this
moment that it infinitely transcends everything which
savours of party. As I have endeavoured to do my own
duty in this matter, I doubt not the present Government
will also endeavour to do theirs ; and I am sure that no
man in this house will give to their services a fuller or more
frank recognition than I shall. (CheerA.)
Sir C. NAPIER congratulated his hon. and gallant friend
on the very clear and sailorlike manner in which he had
brought forward these estimates. The gallant officer had
told the house that he had got the Channel fleet up to 12
sail of the lino ; and he quite agreed with him that it was
not desirable to confine that fleet to the Channel. Portland
might be very good for head-quarters, but the ships should
be kept constantly at sea, in order that the men, the officers,
and even the admiral, should acquire the necessary experi-
ence. Different officers had different notions of drill, and a
little sea experience under the admiral was necessary to give
uniformity in this important matter. Ile had had the hon-
our to command the Channel squadron for two years ; and,
although he was not fonder of praising himself than other
men—(a laugh)—he must say that under his orders a per-
fect uniformity of discipline was obtained in the fleet under
his command. With regard to the block ships which were
sent to the Baltic, he said that the object was to have effi-
cient ships ready to receive the reserve; but he added that
they were by some extraordinary arrangement sent without
masts and yards, so that they were entirely useless. The
coast-guard were old sailors, and there were no better men
sent to the Baltic. As to the coast volunteers, he had
no doubt that they would come forward when they
were called upon, if they were properly treated, and
not sent some to one place and some to another, but
made available for manning the ships at the naval
stations to which they belonged. But suppose your ships
manned, where were the officers to command ? Where
were the captains and lieutenants to command the men ?
Formerly we were overwhelmed with officers, now the Admi-
ralty had gone to the opposite extreme, They were asked
for £lOO,OOO for the reserve, but that was not the way of
securing an effective reserve. They ought to keep 10 sail
of the line fully manned with able seamen in time of peace,
and that would supply the nucleus of a force sufficient for 30
sail of the line in the event of any emergency arising. The
noble lord said they had 40 sail of the line and 120 gun-
boats in a state of efficieny ; but if they had 80 sail of
the line we should be safe against all the powers of the
world. The paying off of the fleet in 1857, and the conse-
quent necessity of getting it up again, had cost more money
than it would have done to maintain the fleet in an efficient
state at its full force. The hon.. and gallant officer had
spoken of 231 merchant steam vessels which might in case
of emergency be made available ; but how long would it
take to fit them out and arm them ? With regard to man-
ning the navy, he was glad to hear that the bounty, accord-
ing to the plan he proposed many years ago, was to be
given, but it must be given to the full extent—a portion
would not satisfy the men. The number of desertions, he
understood, was now as great as they were during the war,
which he regretted, because it proved that the men did not
consider themselves well treated. If they were properly
treated desertion would be extremely rare. The system on
which the Admiralty was conducted was anything but
satisfactory. One board was turned out and was succeeded
by another, and in the course of five years there had been
seven first lords, and therefore it was not surprising that a
great deal of waste and extravagance took place. The
system must be put an end to in some way or other. With
respect to Greenwich Hospital a most searching examina-
tion was necessary. Whilst all the officers received their
full pay or their pensions, the sailors got only a shilling a-
week, and the way in which they were treated led to every
species of immorality. If a sailor was ruptured in the
service he only got a gratuity of £5 or £6 and was then dis-
I charged, and as nobody would employ him he must either
go the poorhouse or starve. Greenwich Hospital was in
fact nothing but an exhibition of splendid misery. The hon.
and gallant officer then referred to returns, showing the
number of seamen who had taken refuge in poor law unions
and workhouses, but the manner in which he read them
rendered it quite impossible to report even their substance.
Mr. LINDSAY coiled attention to the enormous increase
in the navy estimates. In 1852 they amounted to £5,500,000,
in 1853 to £6,280,000, in 1858 to £8,680,000, and the pre-
sent estimates amounted to no less than £12.680,000. He
was not going to oppose the vote, because he was one of
those who thought it wise economy to maintain the defences
of the country in an efficient state ; but he thought that the
navy might be maintained in as elacient a state as it now
is for much less money. He hoped that his noble friend the
Secretary for the Admiralty would prevent those conver-
sions of ships that were constantly take place at so useless
a sacrifice of public money. There was something wrong
in our dockyards. He would take first the wages of arti-
ficers in the dockyards. He had paid some attention to this
subject, and he had taken out the wages to shipwrights
employed on eight ships, all of the same size, 1,462 tons,
two of which were built at Devonport, two at Sheerness,
two at Chatham, and two at Woolwich. He found that
the price paid for shipwrights' labour for these ships was
£8 13s. 11d, a ton, while for the Tartar and Cossack, which
were built in a private yard on the Thames for the Rus-
sian Government, the cost of the labour was only £2 Bs. a
ton. He did not recommend that our ships of war should
be built in private shipyards, but he thought there might
be a very great reduction made in the item of shipwrights'
wages. The item for labour was £1,527,000, of which
about £1,000,000 was for shipwrights, and on that item
alone there might be a saving of some £400,000, to the
country. Take the next item—materials and stores. The
vote required amounted to £2,800,000. He would only take
two items as an example. tp to a recent period it was
though that there were only two or three firms in this
country capable of building steam engines for the navy. He
did not recommend that the construction of steam engines for
the navy should be let out by tender, but it was rather too
much to suppose that persons who constructed engines for
the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and for the At-
lantic Steam Packet Company, could not construct them
for the navy. The result had that the two firms em-
ployed had a monopoly, and they had been charging £6O a
ton—his gallant friend behind him said £Bo—whereas, if
they had widened the range they might have got them for
£5O or £45 a ton. He trusted that the Secretary of the
Admiralty would not be led by those under him to think
that there were only two or three firms who were capable
of constructing steam engines for the navy, but would use
his own judgment. Then take anchors. He was on a com-
mittee which sat for two or three months on the subject of
anchors. Seven different kinds of anchors were tested
before them, and they tested them in every possible way,
and they arrived unanimously at a decision, and gave in a
report that the Admiralty anchor was the worst anchor of
the whole lot, yetthough that report hadAdbemeirnalitnyanchorposses-
sion
of the Admiralty nine years, the
still continued in use. (Hear.) And moreethan that, the
price that the Admiralty paid for seventeen anchors was
£3,364 17s. 6d., whereas the market price for these anchors
was only £1,428. Then take thewagesofseamen. The amount
required was £2,966,000. He was on the commission for
manning the navy. He differed from his colleagues on that
commission, and that he arrived at the solemn conviction
that the extra expenditure which they were about to saddle
on the country would be wasted. He should consider it
his duty to oppose that expenditure in every stage, and he
trusted it would not be agreed to without a thorough dis-
cussion. He believed that on this item they might save
£500,000 a year without making the manning of the navy
in any way less efficient than at present. Perhaps the house
was not aware that in her Majesty's ships the same system
was followed that was followed in the time of our grand-
fathers. There was the same number of men required, ton
for ton and gun for gun, that was required in the time of our
grandfathers, and while every merchant ship had its patent
blocks and patent sheaves for saving labour, there was
nothing of tyt ho eotfhkteihnoedffioi
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sr MsHhaoeju ships.iedsididyb'iotre
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or later. The vote Avhich they were asked
s But he wanted to
k remedieded togve soonerfor the
half-pay and reserved and retired list was £718,000. His
hon. and gallant friend said theyhad no officers. What was
the fact ? This year they had on the active list 96 admirals,
of whom 14 were employed. Of the list of commanders
there were 27 per cent, employed ; of the lieutenants, 67 per
cent. ; and of the masters, 73 per cent employed. There
was a superabundance of officers, especially in the higher
grades. Even at the period when we had to put out our
whole force at the close of the war with Russia, in 1855, the
active list was enough ; and more than enough, leaving a
great number of officers who could not ffnd employment.
Now we ought not to take into the service a large number of
officers unless they had a fair chance of finding employ-
ment. Such a state of things created great discontent
amongst the officers who could not be employed, whilst those
who had influence at court obtained employment and promo-
tion. There was no reason why we should not be able to go to
the merchant service for the supply of our navy in cases of
emergency. The officers of the East India ships and steam-
ships were very little inferior, if at all, to those of the royal
navy, and might be called upon in time of war, along with
the reserve of seamen from our merchant ships. Altogether,
it would be well to pull down the wall of demarcation
between the navy and the merchant service. It was
quite unnecessary that there should be any competition
between them, or that they should outbid each other in
the labour market, spending the money of the coun-
try., He had no doubt that by some such an
arrangement more than two millions might be saved to
the countrywithout injury to the efficiency of the service. In
materials and artificers from £500,000 to £700,000 might
be saved, and in one way and another he believed that eight
or nine millions a year might be made to go as far as the
twelve millions which they were now about to vote. It was
their imperative duty promptly to look to this, because the
present amount of taxation pressed heavily on the people of
this country.
Mr. CARDWELL observed that the house would have
another opportunity of discussing the questions raised by
the hon. gentleman on the vote for the naval reserve, or on
the introduction of the bill to be brought in for manning
the navy. What the commission really recommended, as to
the reserve to be obtained from the merchant service, was not
the same as the hon. gentleman had referred to. The recom-
mendations of the commission, if adopted, would, upon their
showing, involve an expense of £600,000, to which, in the
hon. gentleman's opinion, another £lOO,OOO was to be added.
No doubt, going over all the items, it might be shown that
their recommendations did involve that additional expendi-
ture ; but looking only to the subject of the naval reserve to
be drawn from the merchant service, it appeared that upon
an emergency
some 25,000 men might be supplied, well
trained in gunnery,
and ready to serve their country in the
hour Of danger, and that the whole expense of providing
this, according to the commissioners' recomendations, would
be £200,000. It should be remembered the impressment,
which had been resorted to in our former wars, could no
longer be relied upon for the defence of the country. Such