The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-01 00:00:00

efforts. Every one is able t,o judge for himself for what ulti-
mate end these preparations are intended. The point to
which I invite attention is that whatover may be the mo-

tive of France the practiced result is that we are rapidly
becoming the second maritime Power of Europe. (Hear.)
It is impossible to exagger Ate the imyortance of this propo-
sition. Is it true, or is it not true ? If it be true, what are
the intentions of the Government ? Such questions cught
to be quite above any party considerations—(hear, hear)—
and I will not therefore (enter into any party matters, but I
cannot help feeling that I am bringin g this subject under
the serious consideration of the house and of the country,
at a moment when the Government are, as I think, need-
lessly throwing away a large ?mount of revenue. (Ironi-
cal cries of " hear.") Tha.t observation may not be
acceptable to hon. gentlemen opposite after the recent Par-
liamentary struggle in which we have been engaged, but 1
hope my tone will con',,ince the house that I am not
alluding to this matte.,.• with any party object. (Hear.)
Let me add that no one believes more sincerely than I do
I that the noble lord at the head of the Government is as

anxious as any to preserve the supremacy of England.
(Cheers.) There was recently paid to him one of the

highest compliments that any public man could receive,
coming as it did from a member of this house who is himself
of high position and character. The noble lord was told
that in the opinion of that gentleman he has the heart of an

Englishman and the head of a statesman. I beg to tell the
noble lord that no party differences shall prevent my
saying that I subscribe to this eulogium. (Hear, hear.) For
myself, I hope 1 may lay claim to possessing the heart of
an Englishman, and it is becausel am full of anxiety as an
Englishman at the information received by me from unex-

ceptionable authority that I now appeal to the noble lord
both as an Englishman and as a statesman, and ask him
whether he is content to allow this state of things to con-
tinue, and whether he is prepared to tell us what efforts he
will make to prevent its continuance ? (Hear, hear.)
He will not deny the gravity of the subject. He
can hardly say that I am speaking on erroneous infor-
mation. I cannot see the possibility of error in state-
ments made as the result of personal inquiry by one of the
most distinguished men in our navy. That officer gives me
the account of what he has himself seen within a fortnight
from this day, and he allows me to use his name. Looking
at the nature of this information, I must say I am disap-
pointed that the pledge given on the part of the Govern-
ment in February has not been redeemed. The state of
things then contemplated has arisen. Fresh efforts are being
made across the water ; no proportionate efforts are being
made in England. I hope my object in making this state-
ment will not be misunderstood—(cheers)—and I will
merely add that with great anxiety I await the answer of
the noble lord. I hope that he is not insensible to the
gravity of this information, and that if, as I have reason to
believe, he has received the same information, no financial
considerations will prevent the Government from using
every possible effort to maintain the supremacy of this
country. (Cheers).
Admiral WALCOTT said he had received the same in-
formation, and was convinced by it that our neighbour had
at this moment a most formidable number of armour-cased
ships. Very soon they would possess a fleet perfectly
irresistible in regard to this country if a war broke out,
unless we took steps to place ourselves on an equality with
them. He felt bound in justice to Admiral Elliott to say
that he had waited on the First Lord of the Adiniralty, and
acquainted him with all the facts which had been laid be-
fore the house by the right hon. baronet. (Hear, hear.)
It was imperative upon the house to see that England was
placed in a position of equality with foreign Powers in this
important particular, for if once we lost the supremacy of
the sea England's sun would sink never to rise above the
horizon again. The noble viscount at the head of the Go-
vernment had been taunted by an hon. member below the
gangway with making a " Rule Britannia" speech, but he
felt convinced that, high as her reputation stood, it would
be increased by a repetition of " Rule Britannia" speeches.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY was surprised that the right hon. baronet
if he meant to challenge statements made leyelaim at a former
period should not have given him notice; for he could not
be expected to carry a whole array of figures in his 'lead.
It was only at eight o'clock that he had heard from the
right hon. baronet that he intended to call these statements
into question. Neither could he see what good was to be
done by the right hon. baronet's statement. If the informa-
tion which he had received was so important, his proper
course would have been to wait upon the noble lord at the
head of the Government and lay it before him. The only
result of the course he had adop'ed would be to create un-
necessary alarm. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. baronet
had challenged the veracity of one of the most eminent
statesmen in France, M. Chevalier. (No, no.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—On the contrary, I stated dis-
tinctly that I had no right to make any imputation on the
veracity of M. Chevalier. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY said the statement of Admiral Elliot was
entirely at variance with M. Chevalier's, and if that was
not imputing his veracity he did not know what was. In
his letter, written in the early part of February, M. Cheva-
lier stated that France had then only one iron••cased ship
ready, La Gloire, and that in a short time they were to have
a second, but that a full year was necessary to get two
more ready, and another year for two more. The right hon.
baronet would probably admit that on the Ist of February
there was but one ship ready, and he had ,not stated that
the second one was ready yet, so that M. Chevalier's state-
ment was quite correct. As for M. Chevalier attempting to
throw dust in his eyes, he certainly had had some expe-
rience of the world, and was not easily gulled, but M. Che-
valier did nothing of the sort, he simply referred him to the
Minister of Marine. He saw the Minister of Marine, who
handed him his own repot t of every ship in the navy—of
the stages in which they were and where they were to be
found, and he offered, if he would visit the dockyards for
himself and judge of the accuracy of the return, he would
send a gentleman with him from his own office. Those
statements were entirely at variance with the information
of the Secretary of the Admiralty on which h was basing
his estimates, and he wrote to his noble friend from Par is
suggesting that he should come over and see for himself,
being sure that the Minister of Marine would grant the
noble lord the same facilities as he had so frankly offered to
him. No doubt, pressing engagements had prevented the
noble lord from doing that, as they had prevented him from
accepting the offer of the Minister of Marine; but so anxious
was he to arrive at the truth that he consulted with his
hon. friend the member for Finsbury, and they sent over an
engineer who visited the dockyards of France. That gen-
tleman held opinions in regard to the intentions of the
Emperor of the French very similar to those of the right
hon. baronet. He had the same idea which the right hon.
baronet appeared to have, that the French Emperor was
getting together a vast navy, with some remote view of
invading England ; but when he came back he confirmed,
word for word, the statements made by M. Chevalier and
the Minister of Marine. (Hear, hear.) He mentioned the
subject, too, to the hon. member for Glasgow and the noble
lord the member for Totness, who had been members of the
recent commission, and they had visited the principal dock-
yards, and would be able to say whether the information he
had received was correct. Besides that ho had analysed the
expenditure of the French navy, and he had shown to the
house—as clearly as figures could shove—that so far from
overrunning the votes—as it was said that money was
voted for one purpose and applied to another—for a series
of ten years the expenditure had not exceeded the votes
more than our own expenditure exceeded our votes. (Hear,
hear.) The vote for the French navy last year was
4900,000, and he had no doubt that the expenditure this
year would only slightly exceed that sum. But we were
spending upwards of £12,000,000 on our navy. (Hear.) If
France was only spending £5,000,000, and if we were spend-
ing X 12,000,000, what reason was there to fear the power of
France? Either we must be managing our business very
badly, or France must be managing her business exceedingly
well, if France could produce for £5,000,000 that which
cost us £12,000,000. He wanted to know why the right
hon. baronet who had held the office of First Lord of the
Admiralty should ask the Government to spend more money
on the navy. What would be the effect of this discussion
in France? The story would go about that on the recommen-
dation of one who had held high office at the Admiralty,
England was about to vote more money for the building of
ships. There were many people in France who seriously
entertained the idea that we intended to invade France.
(Laughter.) Hon. gentlemen opposite might laugh, but he
laughed at those who thought that France intended to in-
vade England, and he had far better reason to laugh at
them than hon. gentlemen had to laugh at those gentlemen
in France who thought that England intended to invade
France. If they looked at history, they would find that
France had never invaded England, but the flag of Eng-
land had waved over the palaces of France and ,the armies
of England had marched inee its capital. France had never
invaded England, but we had invaded France. Therefore
when a vast English fleet was cruising in the Channel it
was not so ludicrous to assume that England intended to
invade her again as it seemed to hon. gentlemen opposite.
Itwould go forth that, not content with spending£l2,ooo,ooo
on our navy, we'tvere about to spend more money. The
people in France would biing pressure to bear on their re-
presentatives in the Chamber of Deputies. The Chamber
of Deputies would bring pressure to bear on the Throne.
More money would be spent on the navy of France, and we
should have to spend more money on the navy of England.
(Hear, hear.) There was some rumour of nine or ten iron-
cased ships being about to be built in France. The gentle-
man who was sent across was told to inquire particularly
into the matter, and he did not see the smallest preparation.
He did not mean to say that France would not build more
iron ships, because five years ago the Emperor had deter-
mined on building nothing but iron ships. (Hear, hear.)
He did not say that in the course of time France would not
build more iron ships ; but the gentleman who was sent to
France could find no trace of them, and dust was not
thrown in his eyes, for he was allowed to visit the dock-
yards. Admiral Elliot's statement was that he had seen
nine or ten in course of building.
Sir J. PAKIN GTON—Fiiteen in different states of pro •
gress, and excepting the ships at Toulon. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY thought it very remarkable that Admiral
Elliot should see so many ships in preparation, when only
a fortnight before the gentleman who was sent over could
find no trace of the nine iron-cased ships. He believed that
what Admiral Elliot saw were not the nine large ships
which it was rumoured were in course of construction. He
Was 44 anxious as any man that England should maintain