The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-02 00:00:00

ITALIAN AFFAIRS.

The Marquis of NORMANBY rose to move an address
for copies of any despatches which have been exchanged
between her Majesty's Government and those of France,
Sardinia, or of any other European Power, on the question
of the recognition of the blockade of Gaeta ; also of copies
of any despatches from her Majesty's Minister at Turin con-
taining a report of the number of persons qualified to vote,
and of those who actually did vote, at the last 'elections
in Italy:—Similar returns of the partial resolutions in
September last; also copies of despatches trans-
mitting the proclamations and general orders of
Generals Cialdini, Di Sonnaz, and Pinelli as to
the struggle going on in the Abruzzi and other parts of
the Neapolitan dominions between the Neapolitan
Royalists and tho Piedmontese army ; also copies of any
despatches giving an explanation of the Royal decree
arbitrarily abolishing the administrative autonomy of
Tuscany, immediately preceding the meeting of the
National Parliament, which was summoned nominally to
decide upon the reconstruction of the whole country ; also,
copy of any despatches from Mr. Elliot giving an account
of the proceedings with reference to the plebiscite which
extinguished the separate existence of the Government
of the Two Sicilies ; also, copy of any de-
spatches explaining the extraordinary circumstances
that some of the constitutional Ministers of the King of
Naples remained without any intermission in the same
confidential situation under General Garibaldi ; and also
copies of any reports made to the Lords of the Admiralty
from the admiral commanding her Majesty's fleet in the
Mediterranean as to the part taken by that fleet from the
landing of Garibaldi and during the invasion of the coun-
try by King Victor Emmanuel. The noble lord said these

papers bore on very important points on which the papers
already given to the house furnished no information. A
remarkable circumstance connected with the papers already
published was—it appeared that Sir J. Hudson took a small
share in the correspondence with the Government relative

to Italian affairs. It seems to be almost certain that the
distinguished diplomatist must have had some most im-
portant conversation with Count Cavour, and the result
must have been communicated to the Home Govern-
ment. The noble lord referred to the affairs of Savoy
and Nice, and observed that, when he asked a question
relative to a certain despatch on a former occasion, he had
been informed that the reason it had not been produced
earlier than it was arose from the circumstance that it had
not arrived from Paris until three days after it was
written ; but on referring to the Blue Book he found
what appeared to him to be somewhat strange, that in no
_ _

single instance was there a despatch from Lord Cowley in
Paris, but what had been received the day after it had
been written. After alluding at some length to the
idea that the Government had been disingenuous
throughout the whole of their Italian negotia-

tions, he spoke of the different schemes for Ita-
lian government that had been tried at different
times. These were all crowned by the last new plan for a
uniform Italy, the Italy of Liborio Romano, the Italy of
Count Cavour, and, he was sorry to say, the Italy of Lord
John Russell. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He con-
tended that the term national independence had been abused
by Sardinia, particularly in her treatment of the countries
which had been annexed to Piedmont. He argued in favour
of a federal as opposed to a unified Italy, by the former of
which Naples might have been liberalised and still pre-
served to the King. He argued that the gold of Piedmont
had as much to do with her success as her arms—large
sums having been distributed in Sicily and Naples. In ge-
neral he contended against the late movement in Italy, and
the settlement which had been arrived at.

Lord WODEIIOUSE said that it appeared to him the
speech of the noble marquis required scarcely any reply
from any noble lord representing her Majesty's Government,
for the noble marquis had said almost nothing as to the con-
duct of the Government. With regard to the first papers
in the list moved for by the noble marquis, the only corn
munication received by her Majesty's Government was a
formal Rotice from the Sardinian Government announcing
the blockade of Gaeta, which had been published in fin
Gazette. There had been, indeed, a question put to Lord
Cowley respecting the siege, which, however, led to no fur-
ther communications. As to the second point, the produc-
tion of despatches giving the number of votes at the elec-
tions, no, doubt that might be a very suitable return to
move for in the Sardinian Chambers ; but her Majesty's
Government was possessed of no information on the sub-
ject. As to the proclamation of General Cialdini, it was to
be found among the papers on the table. The other pro-
clamations moved for, he believed, were not amongst these
papers ; but upon this part of the subject all the despatches
in the possession of the Government had been laid before
Parliament. The next inquiry was as to Mr. Elliot's de-
spatches. On this point lie thought the noble marquis
could scarcely have read the papers which he described as
so meagre; for, at pages 115, 117, 132, there was abun-
dance of information on the subject. The circumstance
that several Ministers of the King of
,Naples remained
in the same situations under General Garibaldi was
certainly a very remarkable circumstance--(a laugh)—
and ;,if he (Lord Wodehouse) were possessed of any secret

information tending to throw light on this interesting sub-

jcct, he certainly should not withhold it from their lordships
—(a laugh)—but he had none. Lastly, with respect to Ad-
miral Milady's despatches, the noble marquis's motion con-
tained an assumption, as well as an inquiry for papers, the
assumption being that the admiral in command of the fleet
had taken an active part in the proceedings in Italy. The
only occasions on which Admiral Mundy interfered were
two; ono was when the general commanding the Neapolitan
troops wished Admiral Mundy to meet him, and the meet-
ing took place on board the admiral's ship ; the other was
an occasion on which he gave Mr. Elliot and General Gari-
baldi an opportunity of meeting on board his vessel, and
when an offer which was made by Admiral Mundy was
politely declined. These were the only occasions on which
Admiral Mundy had interfered, and there would be no ob
jection to lay his despatches on the table. If therefore the
noble marquis would be good enough to amend his motion
in the above particulars he should be happy to accede. lie
briefly commented on the lengthy remarks of Lord Nor,
manby, and asserted that the Government had the greatest
sympathy with, and admiration of, the efforts made by Vac
Italians for their independence ; while he was astonished
that the noble marquis seemed to have not a spark of sym-
pathy for those efforts.

The Earl of MALMESD URY urged that the Italian re-
volution should be looked at from a political rather than a
poetical point of view, and expressed his opinion that, look-
ing to the difference of character between the Italians of the
north and south, it would be better to have two kingdoms
than one in Italy. He argued that Sardinia was influenced
in her conduct more by interested motives than by a pure
desire :or the freedom of Italy.

Lord LLANOVEF said, as far as he could judge, not
only from his visit to Naples on the occasion referred to,
but also from having been frequently among them, and
knowing the feelings of the Italian people generally, he
must say his noble friend was entirely wrong in stating that

their feelings were violated in any way whatever on the
occasion alluded to; on the contrary, there were great re-
joicings on that occasion. With regard to the presence of
the French fleet at Gaeta, he felt perfectly certain that
were it not for that circumstance, Gaeta must have fallen
at a much earlier period, and all that great effusion of blood
and that reactionary movement which was spreading through
the country would not have taken place. With reference
to another point, the confiscation of the property of the
royal family of Naples, the noble lord the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs protested as far as he could against that act,
and wrote a despatch to Turin expressing a hope that no
proposition of that kind would be carried out. The noble
lord said also that there was no feeling whatever for Eng-
land existing in Italy. lie (Lord Llanover) never saw any
feeling more strong from Naples to Turin in favour of Great
Britain. The people of Italy did not wish us to rush into
war, but they knew very well we had sympathy for them, '
and they know also that the expression of those feelings,
whether within the walls of the English legislature or
tie
biroushout the country, would have great effect in Europe.
there wl:vhed at this moment there was no intervention—if
and
be was not, depend upon it Italy would soon settle down
et ; and he hoped now, from circumstances which
taken place within the last few
days, thatan illustrious
personage would see that it was impossible to please two
go with the °
parties so o
to each other, and that he must either
of this he Wasultramontane(mite party or go with his people. But
themselves, and allowauere, that if they left the Italians to
would make use of those d them to manage themselves, they
given them, but of whieeh benefits which God Almighty had
them. (Hear, hear.) hitherto despots had deprived
The Marquis of NORMINgy briefly
replied. lie wanted
/ who vvveisdhed there was no to know if his noble friena
intervention there
inter-
vention at Naples, had not observed any
Gndo did he not know I
in the shape of the English
they were encouraged by the English
LLANovER—I am not aware of it.] Thelerib7'ent [l,o;rd
came noble friend's knowledge of Naples was notewantlt B'4
his
Garibaldi
Perhaps his noble friend was not aware eitherthatertl /ouch.
there were ;500,000 inhabitants in Naples, all that th°llgb
for-
ward out of that number show sympathy for
by joining the legion was just 80. The noble marquis con_
eluded by saying that he should accept the paper in the-
modified form agreed to by his noble friend (Lord Nde-
house.)

The motion, as amended, was agreed to.
Their lordships Adjoi,trAoti At 8 o'clock,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Bristol Channel Pilotage Bill was real a second
time, and some private bills were read a first t Ti e.
WESTMINSTER IMPROVEMEN F BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of th's bill,
Sir W. GALLW EY said that he did not rise
to offer any obstruction to the progress of public
business, but he felt bound to oppose the second
reading of this bill, not from any special interest he
felt in the subject, but on public grounds solely. He drew
attention to the course pursued by the Dean and Chapter of
Westminster Abbey, who made a condition with the com-
mission that before commencing operations they should
purchase certain grounds in the vicinity of the Abbey, and
then resell it to them. The result was that the latter
purchased the property in question and erected buildings
on the site which obstructed a communication, which it
was one of the main objects for which the commission was
appointed to carry out. He had asked for a select commit-
tee on this subject, but he was met by a statement
to the effect that the commission was nothing
more than a mere building company, and therefore
that Government was not justified in interfering.
But he contended that it was not a private company.
It had been originally established as a Royal Commission,
and a noble duke who was then in the Government inau-
gurated it. £.50,000 was advanced by Government in the
first instance and 130,000 subsequently, of which
advances they had not received one sixpence in return.
It was required that there should have been a
strict and detailed account furnished for the half
year to show how the money had been expended,
and that the half-yearly balances should be clearly stated.
He understood that the unfortunate bondholders attributed
their utter ruin entirely to the neglect of the Commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests in regard to this hybrid com-
mission, and contended that Government should have re-
quired the sheets of the returns half yearly. The hon.
baronet concluded by moving as an amendment that the
bill should be read a second time that day six months.
Sir J. SHELLEY said that the hon. baronet had given
no reason whatever for opposition to the bill, but that his
arguments had an effect directly the contrary. He under-
stood this bill to be a sort of Encumbered Estates Bill, and
was introduced for the purpose of winding-up a disastrous
concern. There was no doubt that there had been great
mismanagement on the part of the commission, but that
formed a special ground for a measure like the present,
and ho would vote for the second reading.
Mr. COWPER said that this was a subject in which
the Government could officially interfere.

After some further discussion the amendment was with-
drawn, and the bill was read a second time.
Mr. S. ESTCOURT then formally moved that the bill
be referred to a committee of private members to be selected
by the house, which was agreed to.