The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-24 00:00:00

rtiß SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 24, 1857

and the contract, or implied contract, under
which they accepted office, they were entitled to a
corresponding deduction. The next ground on which
1
these impressions had obtained currency in the public
mind was that th re had been a breach of engagements

on the part of the Crown with the civil seivints, in-
asmuch as they contemplated that a fund would have
been set apart for them, which by compound interest
would have produced a surplus entirely at their die-
peal for any purpose they might think fit. Now,
a more grave charge than a breach of engagement be-
tween the Crown and its 16,000 civil servants could not
be imagined, but the question bad been disposed of by
the Commissioners, who, in their report, agreeing with

the Committee of the House of Commons, sail last year

that it had been clearly and definitely decided that there
was no breach of engagement. It was the duty of the
house to see that the eateries of the public servants had
not been settled or reduced by these deduc-
tions, so as to deprive them of the prospect of
a future superannuation allowarac-, and if the ques-
tion rested on the sufficiency of the salaries paid, he
could show that within the last four or five years, there
had been a revision of salaries in almost every depart
ment of the State. The investigation had been most
liberally and carefully made, and the result had been
a large increase in the annual charges. The salaries
paid in the Inland Revenue, Customs, and Post-office
departments in 1852, were 2,167,0001., which had in-
creaeeel in 185 G to 2,460,0001., making a difference of
239,000/. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to
intrast the salaries and pensions paid by the Bank of
England and the Government ; and with reference to
the former he said that a clerk of 18 years of age re-
ceived at the Bank of England 601. a-year ; 19 years of
age, 701.; 20 years of age, 801.; 21 years of age, 1001 ;
from 21 to 29 years of ge it increased 51. a-year, when
he received 1401.; and from that it increased up to 45
years of age, when he received a maximum salary of 2501.
In the Government offices a much higher scale was paid.
The lowest salary paid was 901. a-year, and in many
offices in London it was not lower than 1001. a-year ;
and although it might be true that the Bank of England
paid pensions to their worn-out servants, without dis-
tinction, yet if they looked into the question, it would
be found that the pnbiic servants were infinitely better
paid than the clerks of the Bank of England. Any com-
plaints that the civil servants had to make relative to
their salaries had only to be laid before the
beads of departments, when they would communicate
them to the treasury, who were at all dines ready to con-
sider them liberal y and carefully. (Hear, hear.) There
was a great difference between a revision of salaries and
the indiscriminate increase of salaries proposed by the
bill, and therefore it was that he could not accede to its
proposition. One complaint against these deductions
was that the moneys were not constituted int J a fund,
but he could not understand what difference it made to
the public servants w betb er these moneys were kept apart
or not, because by the Act of Parliament no public offi-
cer could receive more under a fund than under Govern-
ment security, and there was no reason for saying any
public servant had not received the whole amount con-
templated, or that could be given under the Act of Par-
liament. The right hon. gentleman then entered into
the statement of the civil servant, that if a fund had
bee. establi-hed it would have increased by compound
interest so as to leave a surplus. Such he said would
not be the case, and in order to prove his assertion, he
entered into a calculation he had made, which showed
that instead of an increase under such circumstances,
there would be a deficiency, and in the course of his re-
marks, he said, that in 1834 the whole of the pensions
paid amounted to 358.0001., and for compensation for
abolished offices, 692,0001. Since then, it had gone on
increasing, and instead of 358,000/ , a• paid in 1834, it
had increased t i 530.0001. this year ; and compensations
from 692,0001. in 1834, to 830,0001. this year. Se that
so far from their diminishing, year by year, as might
have been expected from the diminished rates of pen-
sions, the amount of pensions had coneiderably increased;
and whereas the whole amount of abatement was
74,000/., the increase within the last four years
in pensions aline was more than equal to the
whole of that amount. In 1851 the pensions of
the civil ervants amounted to 509,0001., and last
year to 589,000/.. giving an increase in four years
of 7P,000/. against 74,0001., contributions which showed
that so far from the deduction b3iog more than equiva-
lent for the pensions paid, they were not equivalent to
it. The right hon. gentleman next referred to the dis-
tinction made between the servants who entered the ser-
vice before.lB29. and those since 1844, and read extracts
trom the commissioners' report to show that it was
founded in justice. He contended, on the whole, that
no injustice was done the civil servants by the course
now pursued, though he admitted there were many ano-
malies that required to be got rid of. To give pensions
to the civil servants of the Crown, without their contri-
buting towards it, woul I open up a broad and serious
question. At present the half-pay of the army amounted
to 568,0001., which was a much smaller sum than was
paid to the 16,000 civil servants whom it was proposed
by this bill to give the right of pension ; and if the
latter were permitted to take pensions without contribu-
tions he thought the army would have a right to demand
that their claims be considered. He was inclined to believe
that the agitation that had arisen on this question was
owing to the pressure of the income tax during the past
two or three years, the civil service looking upon their
payments in a different light to other men. The amount
being deducted from the salaries of the civil service, it
was looked upon by them as a deduction of their sala-
ries, and by others as a portion of their annual
expenditure. They would, however, be relieved this
year more than one-half in that respect. After some
further remarks • the righthon. gentleman said that
there were no groundi for the adoption of the present
hill. It would leave the present anomalies untouched,
as well as introduce more than at present existed, and
consequently fail in removing the dissatisfaction that
now prevailed. The Government, be admitted, felt
that the question could not be allowed t i stand where
it was, but he asked the house, whether it was decent,
pending an inquiry that bore on this question, to
force upon the Government the expenditure of
public money without at the Fame time seeing
that they secured the removal of all those evils
incident to the question. This was a question not against
the Government, but between the representatives and
and their constiuencies—the tax payers of the country
—on whose behalf the Government resisted the proposed
increase of exp,nditure. He proposed the second read-
ing of the bill this day three months.
Mr. CLIVE said that this was a question of insurance
or deduction from the salaries of the civil service, and
added that much of the present dis.atisfac'iou had
arisen from the ambiguity of the act of Parliament. He
advocated the cause of the civil servants of the Crown,
who were only asking f it what was due to them, and he
had no fear ct receiving the support of his constituents
for the cause he pun.ned. He complained of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Wilson admitting the
defective nature of the present act without endeavouring
to remedy it, and unless the Government gave an assur-
ance that they would remedy the complaints of the civil
service he should vote for the secend reading of the
bill.
Mr. WEGUELIN supported the bill, and eondernned
the system of deductions from salaries for the forma ion
of superannuation funds. He thought the civil service
had no oause to complain in strict justice; but it was the
duty of the Government and Parliament to see that jus-
tice was don e to all classes of the civil service. Wbat
the civil set vice asked for was an alteration in the Act
of 1834. He sail that the average of salaries paid at
the Bank of England was higher than had been quoted.
The average salaries for 1856 was 1951. Whilst those
of the civil servants only amounted to 1471. per annum.
Mr. WILSON said he did not take the higher sala-
ries the Bank of Engirsed into his calculations.
Mr. WEGUELIN said the hon. gentleman had a
strange way of tae.ing an average for drawing a com-
parison. He had taken the high salaries in one service,
and the low salaries of the other. In his (Mr. Wegue-
lin's) was included the salaries of all,
includ;
ing the porters in the Bank of England. Then the
only deducti in made from the salaries was for a widow's
fund. He supported the rep in of the commissioners
and condemned the conduct of the Government in this
respect, which was unworthy that of a Whig Govern-
ment, and much less that of the enlightened dictator-
ship under which they at present existed. (Laughter.)
Sir F. BARING considered it was time this ques-
tion should be settled in a fair and liberal spirit. He
objected to the bi.l, because it would not :,etcle the
question, from its only dealing with a small portion of
tee recommendations of the commissioners' report. If
it passed it would create great dissatisfaction with the
lower classes of the service. Another grave objection to
the bill was, that it proposed a large increase of salaries
to public servants in a most injudicious manner, and at
at a time when it was not required. It proposed an
increase of 5 per cent, on the higher class of servants,
but only 2. per cent. on the lower class servants. This
fact was kept rather in the background, because it did
not Utley with what they had heard so much of ltt,ly
viz., the condition of the poor public servants. (Hear.)
Mr. S. FIrZG ERALD supported the claims of the
civil servants of the crown. He thought the bill of the
noble lord would increase the efficiency of the pu'elic
service, and make it one harmorti ius whole. He was
ready to lice his constituents on the question of supper-
, lug the extra expense the bill would entail for the ex ra
advantages it would give the cif rvice.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS, amidst cries of divide, said
that his constituents would be affected to a large extent
by this bill, and added that it was the duty of the
Government to have presented to Parliament a well
digested s3heme for the settlement of the question. He
objected to an increase of 5 per cent, on the salaries of
civil servants.
Mr. RICH, amidst the impatience of the house, op-
posed the second reading of the bill. The learned gen-
tlemen spoke amidst cries of divide, and other expres-
sions of disapprobation, till ten minutes to 4, when by the
forms of the house relative to day sittings the debate
was suspended amidst loud groans.
TIJR,NPIIZE ACC CONTINUINCE BILL.
The bill teas read a third time and passed.
SUPERANNUATION ACT AMEND \IENT BILL
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER fixed
Wednesday next for the resurnptien of the debate on
this bill.
The other orders for the morning sitting were disposed
of, and the house suspended its sitting at 4 o'clock.
Toe house resumed at 6 o'clock.
NOTICE OF MOTION.
Mr. WARREN gave notice that early in the next
session he should call attention to the present state of
:eriibliutantayl4l.aw, and its administration by navaland military
T 1 EDINBURGH ANNUITY TAX ABOLITION
' T'VOCATE, in reply to a question put
' at looking at the late period of
-ce of opinion which
thought that
-liameet

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY objected to the manner in
which the house had been called upon to pay the ex-
penses of the Persian war, because he thought that.
whenever any hostilities were commenced tending to
an increase of taxation, the fact should be communi-
cated by message to the house.
Lord PA.LNIERSTON said he had already explained
the circumstances under which a communication of the
fact had been made to Parliament in a speech from
the throne. Whenever a war was undert iken, no
doubt it should be communiclted to Parliament before
any expenses were incurred.
Mr. WALPOLE said that though the Persian expe-
dition was mentioned in the speech from the Throne,
there was no intimation that the expenses were to be
divided between the East Indian Government and the
home Government. He coull not help referring to the
very clever turn given to the debate the other night,
when the noble viscount said that on both sides of the
house information had not been demanded before. They did
not introduce the subj,mt, because at that moment nego-
tiations for peace were going on; an exception should not
be taken because all pressure was avoided at. such a time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in the second week of the session he made a distinct allu-
sion to the arrangement respecting the exemises of the
Persian war, and the details of the sum which would be
required were shortly after laid upon the table.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 590,0001. for the purpose of adjusting
the acc mints of the old China war,
Mr. WILSON expleiued that this was the sum which,
after a long negotiation with the East India Company,
had at last been agreed to. There would be a set off due
from the Company of 560,0001., which would leave a ba-
lance to be paid of only 30,000/. The vote therefore was
chiefly nominal, and would have little effect on the
finances of the country.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know if this was a final
ajeetment, or if more of these accounts were coming ?
Mr. WILSON said that this payment was a final ad-
justment of the matter.
Col. SYKES said the East India Company bad made
a very bad bargain.
Mr. COX wished to know what security there was fur
the payment of the 560,000/., as the country was called
upon by the vote to advance the full 590,0001.
Mr. WILSON explained that this sum would not be
rea'ly advanced. It was necessary, accn-ding to the
forms of the house, that the sum in full should be put
down in the votes.
The vote was then aereed to.
The next vote was 11,1151. to defray the tx?ensee of
the General Board of Health.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the amount charged
in this class of expenses, which were now 634,0001.,
being 303,0001. over the corresponding class last year.
The account was put into his hand only that morning,
little more than an hour before he had to come down to
the house to atten Ito his Parliamentary duties. As to
the vote itself, he had always understood that the Board
of Health was to be abolished. It had lost the confi-
dence of the country, was totally useless, and was only
kept up to provide salaries for its officers, Since the
aepoietinent of local medical officers under the Metro-
politan Act, its inutility had been yet more apparent.
There was a bill before the house to abolish the board.
Sir G. GREY denied that the Board was useless, it
had rendered great services, and some such machinery
was necessary. There was a bill More the house trans-
ferring the duties of the board to the President of the
Council ; but this obj-ct had not yet been effected. if
the proposed bill passed, so much only of the vote would
be taken as would be necessary to defray the additional
chaiges on the C mncil Office.
Atter a few words from Sir J. TRELA.WN
Mr. BLACKBURN asked if the board did not ex-
pire of itself at the end of the year.
Sir G. GREY explained that the board did not ex-
pire till the eiid of the session of 1853.
Colonel SYKES said that the course proposed was
trifling with their constituents, and an opportunity ought
to given of duly considering the matter.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that if anyone would
divide against the vote altogether, he would vote with
him. -

INDIA.

Oa the motion of Col. SYKES, a return was ordered of
"the area. and population of each division of each presi-
dency of India, from the latest inquiries ; comprising
also the area and estimated population of native states."
WASHING AND DRYING FOR SOLDIERS.
On the question that the Clerk do proceed to real the
orders of the day,
Col. NORTH rose to move for a copy of any corre-
spondence which had taken place between the War De-
partment and Mr. Huthnance, relative to his apparatus
for a drying-room to be attached to a laundry ; and
copies of any reports which had been made on this sub-
ject by any officers to whom the question had been re-
ter red.
Sir J. RAMSDEN said the apparatus to which his
hon. and gallant friend alluded was one of a great num-
ber of inventions which had recently been submitted to
the War Department, which had been referred to com-
petent officers to be reported upon.
Tae motion was negatived without a division.
TETE ORDER OF TUE BAT'.
L-tel HOTHANI cal ed the attention of the First
Lord of the Treasury to the existing practice of exacting
from officers appointed to be members of the military
division of the must honourable Order of the Bath an
engagement that the insignia of the Order, which they
have received from the S ,vereign in person, or which
have been transmitted to them by her Majesty's com-
mands, shall alter their death be returned. Tne noble
lord remarked that from time to time an investiture took
place by the S vereign, but directly the person receiving
the de ;oration left the Qieen's pre-ence he was presented
with a printed form, which he was required to sign, pro•
'riding that the insignia shall be given up to the Crown
on his death. In the cage of a knight the star was made
of such paltry materials that the first thing a knight had
had to do was to go to his jewellers and to provide him-
self, at the expense of about 141 , with a star which was
fit to wear with his unif. rm. (Rear, and laughter.) At
Sebastopol there was an investiture, at which French,
Sardinian, and English officers received the decoration,
and while silver stars were, as they ought to have been,
sent out by this country for the French and Sardinian
officers, tinselled stars were publicly given to our own
officers which it was impossible for them to wear with
their uniforms. The noble lord Abided to the orders of
Maria Theresa and St. George of Russia, the greatest
orders in Europe, the insignia of which were small in
free, light in appearance, and convenient to wear. He
trusted that Lord Palmerston would tender such advice
to her Majesty as would lead to some satisfactory
change.
Sir W. CODRINGTON said that these orders had
been very greatly improved lately. Formerly a G.C.B.

Mr. COX opposed the grant. The Board of Health
was as great a nuisance as that which it was intended to
remove. He objected equally to the proposed bill of the
right hon. gentleman, and he had thought that the
Board of Health was to have ceased this year, and be
should oppose all continuance of the vote.
Lord I'A.LAERSTON said that it was objected that
the B ,ard of Health was not only useless but mischiev-
ous. He would not then refer to the exertions of the
right hon. gentleman the member for Mary lebone, nor to
what he might call the noble devotion of the board during
the cholera year ; but there was one of its functions
which was productive of so much economy that it ought
not to be objected to by the hon. member for Lambeth.
It was this, that hitherto when towns were anxious to
obtain for themselves powers to make sanitary regula-
tions, they would have to spend 6001. on a bill if it was
unopposed, and double or treble !hat 'dual if opposed. At
present they could by means of this board obtain the
same advantage at an expense of not more than 601.
Tots was the board which they called a useless one.
Mr. WILLIAMS saw no means of proceeding except
by dividing the house against the vote.
After some remarks from Mr. MOWBRAY, in refer-
ence to the operatic)!ns of the board,
Mr. MONSELL defended its operations, and said
that the local boards were satisfied with its conduct
towards them in reference to local sanitary improve-
ments. _

Mr. HENLEY said it was Eatiafactory to find that
the General Board of Health and the local boards
worked so amicably together. He was unwilling to vote
against the estimate, but he expressed a hope that early
next session the Government would introduce a new

Tho LORD t,—
by Mr. E Ellice, said
the sessi,,n, and qt
existed on the subject of this ineasvre,
it would be impossible to carry it thromb

this session, and therefore he should propose that the cost 2821., and that of Knight Commander was 901 ; measure for the guidance of the General Board of Health.
order of the day should be read for the purpose of its but those extravagant charges were now moderated. At Mr. BASS defended the Board of Health. He was
being discharged. the saute time he hope I the present tinselled decoration instructed by the mayor and corporation of the borough
The order was read and discharged accordineleh wood soon be supplied by one which was worthy of the (Derby) he represented to support the measures ef the
DIVISION OF THE COLONY OF NEW hon iur conferred by the Sovereign. A star w null not Government in reference to the board.
SOUTH WALES. ' seat more than 71. or 81, and not more than eight or Sir 0- PEC HELL wished to see a diminution of this
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the Secretary of State for t-n were conferred every year. In the Crimea ween the , vote. Ile should be happy to support a nuisance bid that
the Colonies whether any decision had been come to by Fr nets and Sardinian officers were decorated, their stars would i ()move the Board of Heali b, the Poor-law Board,
her Majesty's government on the anbj et of detaching i were placed on their coats, while the tinselled stars were and the B yard of Trade. (Laughter.)
from the Colony of New South Wales any portion of slipped into the hands of the English officers, while the l After some remarks from Mr. 'IONSELL in exelana-
the northern territories thereof, and forming the same French and Sardinian officers were standing by. This i time, and also from Sir G. PECIIELL, the latter of
into a separate colony, and if any such decision had been i was a source of great regret to him when he was in the ' ehom sail it was the principle he opno.sed,
made where the southern boundary of such new colony 1 Crimea. (Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
WAS to be drawn; and whether ;n respect of any portions Lord PA LANIER'S roN did not think that there was : that if the bill before the house proposing te transfer
of such new colony as were situated between the 26th anything unseemly in the fact that the honours should ' the functions of the Board of Health to the Privy
and 30th dogs. of S. lat., petitions from the inhabitant be returned at death. What were required to be deli- , C iuncil was passed, it would reduce much of the ix-
householders of the territories so situated had been pre• veree were the rihand and the badge Theetor, which was ' penes of the working of the present board. It was coin-
tented to her Ilajesty, as required by the statute 13 and at present purchased by the officer himself, was not re. 1 potent for the house to limit its operations for one year
14 Vic., c. 59, s. 34, in order to enable her Majesty to turned. In referenc.e. to the remarks of the gallant gene- !to test its efficiency, but in the meantime it would be
include tech territories in the new colony? Whether rat (Sir Win. Codrington), no doubt it might be consi- necessary to tike a vote for the board as at present con-
any conditions bad been imposed in order to prevent di red necessary to reconsider the practice of giving a 1 stituted. If the house adopted the bill, then the Go•
convicts being sent to such new colony ? What pro- piece of ornamental tinsel which it could. never be ex- i vernment would make such a reduction in the establish-
vision had been made as to the form of government of peeled any officer should wear. The expense would cer- went of the board as would be found necessary and the
such new colony ? And whether any, and if any, what tainly not be much, and when a mark of honour wee I Exchequer would be credited with the amount saved by
arrangement had been made as to the proportions of the given for distinguished services, itought not to be attended 1 the change.
1 public debt of the existing colony to be borne by such with expenses to the individual. It was not correct to ' Lerd 3. MANNERS considered this an extravagant
new colony and New South Wales respectively after the say that fees had been abolished. They were now paid vote.
proposed separation. by the public, and he did not see why the same prin- The committee then divided, when the numbers were—
Mr. LABOUcHERE said that by the act upon which ciple should not apply to the stars and other decorations. Fur tho vote
the institutions of New South Wales were founded, the The subject should have every consideration from the Against it 3O
legislature of New South Wales had provided for the Government. Majority for the vote lll
possible separation of the colony by giving to the Queen OFFICERS ORDERED FOR INDIA. On the vote of 2,548/. for the expenses of the Eeele-
in council the power to separate the district of Moreton Mr. NOEL asked whether the Government would siastica.l Commissioner'.
Bay from the rest of the colony, and to draw such boon- t give to those of her Majesty's officers who are ordered I Sir J. TRELAWNY seid that when they came to
dary line as she might be advised, and he (Mr. Labou- to rejoin their regiments in India before the expiration the question of church rates, they would have much
chere) having received reiteraeed and strong petitions of their leave on account of the mutiny in that country, difficulty in dea ing with the question if this vote were
from the inhabitants of the district of Moreton Bay to a free passage ;or whether they will have to return there passed. He was one of those who had hitherto divided
the effect that they desired this separation, thought it at their own expense ? against this vote, the Government was not consistent in
his duty to advise the crown to make the separa ion Sir J. RAMSDEN said the Court of Directors would proposing such a vote. He should move its rejection.
which the crown was empowered to make by the act of pay the expense. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the resources of tee church
the Colonial Legislature. There arose considerable dif- PAPERS FOR THE HOUSE. were ample, and they ought to be content. The people
ficulty as to where the boundary line between the two On a question put by Sir JOHN PAKINGTON, a of this country had been very blameable in this matter,
colonies should be ; but his opinion was that what ought discussion arose as to the 'delivery of printed papers and the church was unwise in coming to this country for
to guide the crown in the matter was the desire of to members, it being remarked that many important do- these votes. .
the colonists themselves who lived near the boundary cuments never came into their bands. Mr. WILSON defended the vote.
line as to whether they should be included in the The CHANCELLOR of the ExCEIEQuER and Mr. WILSON The committee then divided, when the numbers were—
Moreton Bay or in the New South Wales colony, said the matter should again be referred to the printing For the vote
and alto the facts as to the acceptability of the port committee. Against it
of shipment for Moreton Bay. At first he thought INDIA AFFAIRS. Majority for the vote —93
it would be desirable to carry the line of separation Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that as there was some A vote of 11,0801 for the salaries and expenses of the
lower down than he now advised, but it appeared information from. Australia bythemail which hadtouched Charity Commission was agreed to.
to him that the weight of the petitions and memo- at Gale, he wished to know whether the Government On the vote of 1,9241 for salaries and expenses of the
rials from the inhabitants of the district in favour their had received any additional news front India! Statute Law Commission,
being retained as part of the colony of New South Mr. V. SMITE said that no additional information Mr. WHITESIDE said he should like to know when
Wales so much overpowered those in favour of their it,- had been received by the Board of Control or the East this committee would come to an end, and what they
corporation with the Moreton Bay colony, that he bad India Company, From such a course communication had been doing. He had no faith in the labours of the
drawn the line nearer to Moreton Bay than he had would go to the Colonial Department, but he had ascer- commission, from which he expected no results. He
originally intended, between, he believed, the 25th and tained that no news from It dia had been received. pointed out the advisability of imperialising the statute
26th degrees of latitude. As to the second question, he Tho house then went into committee of supply. law, so that the same 1 iws should apply to England and
could not say it was the fixed determination of the SUPPLY—PERSIA. Ireland. He should not divide the house on the ques-
government not to (lend any single convict to Moreton The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro- ti ,n, but he hoped that the promises held out would
Bay, but there was no desire tc do so, and he should ceeded to move hie estimates on the Persian war, and ultimately be fulfilled.
consider it a gross breach of the pledge given to Sydney, said he should not think it necessary to revive the die- o.i the vote of 4,9241. for selarie , and expenses of the
if convicts were introduced into the adjoining colony mission which bad taken place in reference to the causes civil service commission,
from whence they could so easily pass into the colony of of the hostilities which had taken place. He would refer Mr. WILLIAMS inquired what were the duties of
Sy
provision as to the form of government for the new vote. If it had not been fee. the disasters which had taken The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
colony, he found that in the act which the legislature of place in India, neither the Indian Government nor her plained.
1 Sydney had passed it was provided that the constitution Majesty's Government would have asked for the vote ; Aster some further discussion, in which Mr. Ridley,
I
of the new colony should as nearly as possible resemble but in consequence of the Indian revenue at this time— Mr. Wilson, and Mr. W. Williams, took pert, the vote
that of Sydney, and, therefore, there was no option but the losses suffered by the Indian Treasury, and the was agreed to,
to give to the ne x colony the ordinary constitution of a certainty there was that the land revenue and On the vote of 3,5241. for the salaries and expenses of
British col iny. To the last question, his answer was the taxes would suffer a great reduction, they the temporary commissioners,
that he had written to the Governor of New South would not have asked for the vote, which he thought, Mr. WISE said it had been reported that the report
Wales, calling his attention to the subject of the pudic under the circumstances, the house could scarcely refuse, of the commissioners on the national grant was not to
debt, and requesting him to bring the matter before the He would now only revert to the remarks of the chair- be acted upon. He offered no opinion, but wished to
legislature of New South Wales, by whom a proper man of the East India Company, who seemed to think know whether that was true ?
division of the debt caul lbe made- there was some reluctance to discharge obligations to the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
THE NEW MILITARY HOSPITAL AT East India Company. Government had no power to bind seen the reptirt, and the Government had come to no
NETLE 17, the house, and all they could do was to proMise to ale decision whatever.
Mr. WILCOX asked the First Lord of the Treasury the house to reimburse the company for half the extraor. Lord J. MANNERS inquired whether the salaries
if any circuuestauc..s bad arisen to induce her Majesty's dinary expenses. He thought the hon. gentleman used had been fixed ?
Government to suspend their intention to build the new a t,,rrn which he was not ju-tified in using, when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
military hospital at Netley ; and, if so, whether he had he characterised it as a debt due from the house for he was impossible to fix them till the proceedings were ter-
any objection to state them ? considered that the house exhibited no reluctance, but minated.
Mr. STAFFORD, bef ire the question was answered, on the contrary, acted with great liberality and justice,, Mr. BERESFORD HOPE called attention to an in-
wished also to ask whether there was any objection to having given the subject ample consideration. The hoe, consistency in the printed copy of the votes.
publish the complete correspondence upon the subject, gentleman concluded by moving that a stun not exceed- Mr. WILSON explained.
for some important correspondence had been withheld ? ing 400,0001. be granted to her Majesty as repayment to After some conversation, in which Sir Denham
Lord PALMERSTON, as to the last question, said the East India Company in regard to the expenses of Norreys, Colonel Sykes, and the Chancellor of the
that he did not know what the correspondence referred the war with Persia. Exchequer took paw,
to wan, and therefore he was unable to answer the ques- Mr. W. WILLIAMS inquired whether any further Mr. WISE said his question bad not been fairly
tion on that occasion. With respect to the spot selected sum would be required in connection with the war with an wered. He wanted to know whether it was intended
for the hospital, the Government were quite satisfied, Persia ? to act on the report ?
and he himself was entirely convinced from local know- Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Sr G GREY had seen the report, but had not read
ledge that it was very healthy, and totally free from any total amount of expenses calculated by the E est India it, and there was some further documentary evidence to
objection on sanitary grounds,. He had also received a Company was 1,865,0001., but until the accounts were be added to it. Tee other members of the Government
letter from a medical gentleman in the neighbourhood, made up, the matter could not be settled with the Com- bad not seen it.
who stated that don, g2O years' employment in the pany. The Government would pay one moiety of the Mr. WISE again asked whether, when it had been
localay he had not known any cases of ague or diseases extraordinary expenses of the war, towards which the read, it would be acted upon ?
of that kind, amount now proposed would go. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
FIRE INSURANCE AND MUTUAL COM- Col. SYKES said that no exact calculation could at that when completed it would be taken into considera-
PANIES BILLS. present bo made, as part of the troops were now in Lion.
Mr. COWAN asked whether it was intended to pro- Persia. After some further conversation,
pose con-ideraele alterations in two bills recently intro- Mr. COX inquired when it was likely that the troops Mr. AYRTON asked if it was intended to remove
duced —namely, the Insurance Companies and Mutual would return ? the National Gallery. He hoped it would not be done
Companies Bills; and if it was also intended to confer The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said without consulting the house.
limited liability upon such companies ; also if new prints that the Government had heard of the arrival of the Eu- Lord PALMERSTON said there was no such inten-
of such bills, with the alterations proposed, would be ropean troops in India. As toe the native troops, tion. The question almost answered itself.
delivered to members, and notice given of the intention there had been no advice,. Mr. CON-INGHAM said that unless something was
of the Government to proceed with these amended done to make the Royal Academy vacate the premises
measures. He also wished to ask another question. they occupied at the National Gallery, he should take
His hon. friend had been chairman of the committee on the sense of the house on the question.
insurance companies which eat four years ago, and on Altar some further conversation the vote was agreed to.
which he (Mr. Cowan) had also served. Among other On the vote of 20,9881. for salariei, expenses, and
things recommended was one that no insurance (tom- compensations under the Patent Law Amendment Acts,
pany should be allowed to be constituted without lodg. Mr. 'WILLIAMS complained of the items as being
ing 10,0001. iu order to demonstrate the bona fides of excessively high, and hoped the committee would not
the promoters of such companies. lie wished to know sanction such a vote, the most extraordinary he had ever
whether the Government intended to introduce that heard of. He moved the reduction of the vote by
provilen among the other alterations proposed. 5,4101.
Mr. WILSON had to state that it was thought very Sir J. TROLLOPE pointed out that the surplus over
desirable that this bill should be passed in the coerce of the expenses was 10,000/ , which was a tax on the inge-
the present year, especially as an act passed last year nuity of inventors. The Government ought to be
inadvertently repealed the only act which has governed ashumed to take more from the pockets of inventors
insurance offices ; but no doubt his hon. friend was than the actual costs.
aware that a measure on such a sul.jmt must raise many Mr. WILSON said that the whole matter was settled
questions as to different interests, and be had cense- by act of Parliament, and it was hard to blame the Go-
quently had great difficulty in meeting the numerous ob- vernment when so large a reform had been made, and
jections. He had received yesterday a deputat,on re- when the fees of the law officers of the Crown hail been
presenting all the London offices and most of the Scotch reduced from 16/. to 31., notwithstanding the onerous
officers, and he had come to this understanding, to read 'fluty of examining all the specifications. It was quite
the bill a second time to-night, and to-morrow night in
cgho
va
emr en nmdemn et nt tos
assent a s h e
tt
oh.o u gHh
et time that the charges ought to be no more than would
pay the expenses, but the increased cheapness had so M-
etrecreased the demand that the income exceeded what was
it was. in the P
committee te ii,,,twroedruocf
expected. It was impossible to adjust it exactly.
also undertook that the bill should not be comaitted in
PEASE ccenpleined of the hardships to which in-
order to go on with those amendments until those gentle- Mr.
men out of doors who were intsrested in the matter had ventore were exposed, which he thought was a great
bad four days to consider the alterations. check upon inventive eeeitai.
VENTILATION OF SHIPS. In reply to Mr. HORSFALL, who was almost wholly
Mr. ADDERLEY asked the First Lord of the Adrni- inaudible,
Mr. WILSON sail all the specifications were pub.-
ralty whether the Adm ralty had approved of a fan and
lilieti, and sold at a vary low price for the benefit of the
ventilating machine for ships, invented by C. H. Brece-
bridge, Esq., called a blower, whether any ships had been public.
Colonel SYKES said notwithstanding the ingenious
fitte I with them, and whether its success had led to any
general order for theiruse? and deprecating defence of the fees, they did certainly
continue to be a check upon the inventive genius of the
Sir C. WOOD was understood to say that it had oc-
curred to the Admiralty that all ships going out to China country.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thoueht the hon. member
should be ventilated, het he was not Sure that Mr. Brace-
for Lambeth would hardly divide the committee, but
bridge's plan or some other would be adopted. . asked for Exolanatiou on some points.
INDIA. Mr. SPOONER also asked for explanation.
General WINDHAM wished to know whether the Mr. WATKIN said that the house hardly gave the
Horse Guards authorities had any objection to produce Government credit for the valuable purposes accom-
a report on India which it was understood had been plished by this expenditure. At the same time the fees
made some years ago by the late Sir C. Napier, at the oueht to be moderate in amount Some of the best Ma
request of the late Duke of Wellington ? provereents proceeded from the brains of the poor man.
Sir J. RA. AISDEN said it was quite true as the gal-
Mr. WILSON explained.
lent officer bad stated, that there was a report of this Lord J. MANNERS said that this was the old story
nature, which had been drawn up by the late Sir C. of the Government spending money and then coming to
Napier and sent home to the late Duke of Wellington,
the house for votes.
but it did not enter into details as to the Bengal army,
Sir D. NORREYSecompleined that under the present
and merely referred to the military occupation of the
system a part of the salaries of the officers of the crown
country, though it gave details of great importance to
the military government. He thought it would not be was charged nn the invent re.
desirable to lay the report upon the tibia.
Mr, SPOONER wished to know how much was esti-
THE SURVEY OF SCOTLAND. mated end how much was already exoended, and also
why Kensington was chosen for the exeibition of the
Sir D. NORREYS inquired whether there was to be
any supplemental estimate to make up the deficiency in models ?
Mr. WILSON said Lord J. Manners was quite right
the amount requir d for the survey of Scotland ?
Mr. WILSON said there would he such an estimate
in saying that the money was ex,iendel
THE DIVORCE BILL. the sum of 7,0001., voted last year, bad been exhausted,
but it was since ,
Kensington wee selected because there was no room
In reply to a question from Lord J. MANNERS,
anywhere else, The 1,0001. was spent in furnishing and
Lord PALMERSTON said it was still the intention
filling the rooms, not on any new buildings.
of the Government to proceed with the Divorce Bill on 111 r. LYGON asked by whose authority anything was
the following day, being transferred to Kensington? (Sensation).
Atter a few words from Mr. CROSSLEY,
Mr. MOWBRAY compeined that this was money
spent without the sanction of Parliament. He moved
the reduction of the vote by 2,000/., the cast of the mu-
eeum at Kensington.
Mr. WILSON said that when the vote of 7,0001. was
vote), the whole estimate was ready, but that suns was
taken on account.
Mr. SPOONER, said that when the vote fur 7,0001,,
was taken, he distinctly asked whether any portion of
the money would be spent at Kensington, and was as
distinctly toll that it would not.
The house then divided on Mr. Mowbray's amend-
ment, when the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority —B3
The vote was then agreed to,
On the vote of 8,843/. for the expenses of the Board
of Fisheries in Scotland,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that two years ago he was
assured that this vote would be discontinued, and last
year the assurance was repeated. It was a vwe fir the
benefit of the landlords, ac it was said that many of the
poor could not, but for its help, have tee means of pay-
ing their rent. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He ob-
jected to the taxing of the people of England, and of
Ireland too—(cheers from the Irish members)—tor such
purposes. Toe Scotch fisheries were in a most pros-
perous state. He should divide the house on the re-
duction of the whole vote. No, he would allow the
pensions which amounted to 2,1651., and he should
move the reduction of the vote to that sum, striking off
all the other items.
Mr. WILSON said that be was quite prepared to
say that the present was he last year in which the vote
would appear i•• its present shape.
Sir JOHN TRELAWNY complained of the present
plan of fostering the herring trade by what was neither
Wore nor less than a system of protection.
After some observations from Sir G. Pechell, Mr.
Black, Mr. Blackburn, and Mr. Wise,
Mr. WILLIAMS withdrew his amendment, and the
vote was agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. SPOONER the chairman re-
ported progress, and the house resuined.
ECCLE -lASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
Tee house went into committee on this bill, and the
various clauses were agreed to with setae slight altera-
tions after a brief discussion.
The remaining orders were disposed of, and the house

adjourn

Mr. E. 3. Salisbury and Mr. Townsend Mainwaring
have paired for the session on the Divorce Bill.