The Sun.
London, England, 1859-04-06 00:00:00

CHURCH-RATES ABOLITION BILL.

The order for going into committee on this bill was dis-
charged.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.

On clause 13,
Mr. BLACK moved the following amendment :—" But
in the ease of those who entered the public service previous
to the passing of this act if they shall be proved fully com-
petent to discharge the duties of their office, although they
shall be permitted to retire at sixty-five years of age, it
shall not be compulsory on them to retire till they had com-
pleted their seventieth year." He did not consider that
when a man was competent to discharge his duty he should
be compelled to retire from office merely because he had
attained an ago when some men might be unfitted for
official duties.

Colonel NORTH agreed with the hon. member for Edin-
burgh, and suggested the following alteration in the clause
in line 27 : leave out from " receive " to the end of the
clause, and add " The full superannuation allowance which
could be granted by the act under which he entered the
service, for the service which he shall then have completed,
and in addition thereto the allowance under this act for
each year's service beyond the quinquennium."
Mr.WILSON supported the clause as it originally stood. '
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the original clause 147
Against

Majority against the amendment ..-19
Mr. STEWART moved an addition to the clause.
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against
Majority —ls3
Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved the following proviso to
the clause :—" Provided that this enactment shall not ap-
ply to persons holding any of the offices mentioned in the
schedule to this act, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners
of hor Majesty's Treasury, by order or warrant, under the
hands of any two or more of them, to add to the said
schedule any other office or offices which now exist, or
may be hereafter created or established, the nature
and functions of which shall render its or their exclusion
from the operation of the said enactment desirable ; in every
which order or warrant the reasons for adding such office
Shall be stated ; and a copy of every such order or warrant
shall be laid before Parliament within one month after the
making thereof, if Parliament be then sitting, and if not,
then within one month after the next sitting of Parliament."
Sir F. BARING wished to know whether it was in-
tended to exclude commissioners and heads of boards.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said it was intended to exclude
those officers.

Sir G. LEWIS called attention to the schedule, which,
he thought, was imperfect. The Under-Secretaries of State
and the Assistant-Secretary of the Treasury were named,
but there was the Assistant-Secretary of the Admiralty,
who should fall within the same rule. There were also fac-
tory inspectors, prison inspectors, and other officers of that
kind, who should be excluded.
Colonel FRENCH urged the same point.
Mr. W. VANSITTART said a petition had been sent
by the masters of workhouses, praying that provision should
be made out of the rates for superannuation allowances to
them. He mentioned the matter that his hon. friend might
consider whether he could do anything.
Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD suggested that the bill
should be reprinted.
Sir S NORTHCOTE said the bill was not intended to
extend the compulsory retirement to officers of the class that
had been referred to. He felt that the schedule was imper-
fect, and he would have the bill reprinted, and would en-
deavour to specify a greater number of officers.
sir a LEWIS remarked that as the clause stood the
Treasury,
having once issued a warrant excluding any offi-
cer, would have no power to vary it.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said he should add the words
" from time to time."
Mr. CRAUFURD objected to proceeding with so im-
portant a bill in the last hours of an expiring Parliament.
The clause was so objectionable that he intended to move
its rejection.
Mr. LABOUCHERE suggested that the consideration
of the clause be postponed for the present, and that in the
interval the Secretary of the Treasury should consider and
specify what offices should be included in the list of excep-
tions.

Mr. GLADSTONE joined in the suggestion. He was
afraid that, do as they would, the committee would not be
able to get over the giving a discretionary power to the
Treasury ; but he could see no reason, and he had heard
none, why the committee in legislating on a matter so deli-
cate should not insist .on carrying specification to the utmost
point. (Hear.) Unfortunately, the clause had been drawn
on the opposite principle. He added, that at this moment
this was the last bill of all with which they ought to pro-
ceed in a hurry, seeing that it connected itself more or less
with the electioneering interests of almost every gentleman
on both sides of the house. (Hear.) He also hoped before
the bill passed that the Secretary of the Treasury would be
prepared to give the house an estimate of the probable addi-
tion which it would cause to the public expenditure.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to giving discretionary power
to the Treasury in this matter, for they would be sure to
abuse it. He had heard, but could not vouch for the state-
ment, that a person in a public office was about to retire to
make way for a friend bf a member of the Government.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said it was never the intention of
the Government to draw the clause with the view to giving
patronage to themselves. lie would undertake to make a
schedule of excepted offices, and for that purpose, if it was
the wish of the committee, he would withdraw the clause for
the present, and bring it up on the report in anther shape.
Mr. WILSON thought that the house might safely agree
to the clause.
Mr. WILLIAMS inquired whether officers of emigration
would be included.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that such of the officers of
emigration as were paid by the colonies would look to the
colonies for their superannuation, while those who were paid
by the Imperial Treasury would be included within the bill.
Mr. COGAN had strong objections to the principle of
compulsory retirement, and would support a motion for the
rejection of this clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Governrnent were perfectly indifferent whether this bill

were proceeded with or not. Indeed, if he had followed his

olwn inclination, he would not, under the circumstanoes,
have asked the house to pass it. But very many gentlemen
had represented to him privatelythat great ansie was felt
that the bill should pass during the present s sion, and
yesterday he put it to a full house whether the Lill should
go on. An hon. gentleman opposite, who was a great autho-
rity on this subject, and who appeared to spe t with a °Teat
concurrence of sentiment on both sidesof the house--ear,
hear)—thereupon urged him to proceed with the bill. krom
what then took place, and from the tone of the house on the
division upon this bill, he was persuaded that it wai tho
wish of the house that he should proceed with the measure.
(Cheers.) With regard to the statement of the hon. mem-
ber for Lambeth, that an officer of the Government was
about to retire to make room for some one else, if the hon.
gentleman would favour him either publicly or privately,
with the names of the parties, he would make inquiry into
the facts. (A laugh.)
Mr. WILLIAMS stated that he would not vouch for

the truth of the rumour.
Sir F. T. BARING hoped that the committee would pro-
ceed with this bill and finish it. (Hear, hear.) •A feeling
of great anxiety prevailed among public servants with regard
to the bill—(bear, hear)—and nothing would be more in-
oonvenient to the public service than that this class of per-
sons should be looking to members of Parliament, and not
to the Government.

Mr. J. D. FITZGERALD believed that if this compul-
sory retirement clause were abandoned, the bill might pass.
His objections to the clause had by no means been removed
by anything he had heard in the present discussion.
Sir G. C. LEWIS suggested that the clause should be
withdrawn, as it seemed difficult to make an exhaustive
enumeration of officers to whom compulsory retirement
should not apply.
Mr. WILSON, who had supported the clause throughout,
concurred in hoping the Government would withdraw it.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said the Government had not the
slightest feeling with regard to the clause except to make
an arrangement which upon high authority they believed
would be to the advantage of the civil service. The clause
had been a good deal misunderstood, and therefore, under
the circumstances, he would withdraw it. (Hear, hear.)
The amendment was withdrawn and the clause negatived.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved the addition of the follow-
ing clause :—" For the purposes of this Act no person here-
after to be appointed shall be deemed to have served in the
permament civil service of the State unless suchperson holds
his appointment directly from the Crown, or has been ad-
mitted into the civil service with a certificate from the Civil
Service Commissioners ; nor shall any person already ap-
pointed to any office be held to have served in the perma-
nent civil service as aforesaid, unless such person belong to
a class which is already entitled to superannuation allow-
ance, or to a class inwhich, if he had been appointed thereto
subsequently to the passing of this Act, he would, by virtue
of the provision lastly hereinbefore contained, have become
entitled to such allowance; and no person shall be entitled
to any superannuation allowance under this Act, unless his
salary or remuneration has been provided out of the Con-
solidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
and Ireland, or out of moneys voted by Parliament."
Mr. WILSON said he was perfectly satisfied with the
clause, as he understood from the Secretary of the Treasury
that the Civil Service Commissioners would, as a matter of
form, countersign the appointments in the War-office, Ad-
miralty, and other departments, on the representation of
those departments that the requirements of the Civil Ser-
vice Commissioners were complied with.
After some conversation the clause was agreed to.
Mr. GROGAN moved a clause to extend the benefit of
the bill to the medical officers of the House of Industry
Hospitals and the Lock Hospital in Dublin.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE opposed the clause, as it applied to
one of that class of cases in which, he said, superannuation
was impossible.
Mr. VANCE supported, and Mr. WILLIAMS opposed the
clause ; and it was lost upon a division by 113 to 18.
On the question that the preamble be agreed to,
Sir S. NORTHCOTE said that he had endeavoured to
make some kind of estimate of the expense which this bill
was likely to entail upon the public. It was extremely dif-
ficult, however, to arrive at any calculation on the subject,
and, as he had stated before going into committee, really no
reliance could be placed on any estimate, because it could
only be based upon the average age and period of service at
which people were now in the habit of retiring, which was
on a much more advantageous scale than would hereafter
be adopted. Supposing that retirements should in future
take place at the same periods of service at which they now
occurred, the additional charge imposed by this bill might
amount to about £70,000, viz., £40,000 for the Post-office,
£lO,OOO for the dockyards, Customs, and so forth, and
£20,000 on account of the revision of the scale ; £70,000,
however, would be the outside, and he himself did not think
that the increase would be more than £50,000.

Mr. COWAN asked whether the clerk. 4 in the Registry-
office of Edinburgh, who were paid by piecework, would be
entitled to superannuation under this bill.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE replied in the negative.
. _

Mr. CRAUFURD asked'whether the post carriers would
be entitled to suerannuation.
Sir S. NORTHHCOTE said that all persons who were re-
quired to give up all their time to the service of the Post-
office would be so entitled ; all other persons would not.
After a few words from Sir D. NORREYS in condemna-
tion of the measure, _ _ _

The preamble was agreed to, and the bill was reported to
the house.

COUNTY PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The order for the further proceeding with this bill was
discharged.
POOR LAW MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND)