The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-10 00:00:00

MERCANTILE MARINE FUND.

Mr. CRAWFORD wished to ask the President of the
Board of Trade in what manner it was intended to deal
with the large balance in hand and annual surplus which,
as appeared by the accounts of the mercantile marine fund
annually laid before Parliament, now stood to the credit of
that fund ?

On clause 2.

Mr. GIBSON said that the revenue-from light dues in
1860 was £282,300, and taking the average of the last seven
years, the expenditure was annually £207,907, leaving a
surplus of £74,400. From that surplus must be deducted
the expenses for lifeboats, and rewards for saving life,
amounting to £6,000 a year, leaving £68,400. It was pro-
posed to apply that to the reduction of the light dues in
this way—to take 15 per cent, off the coasting voyages,
whieh would amount to £12,856, and 10 per cent. addi-
tional for coasting and over-sea voyages, amounting to
£54,120, thus giving relief to the shipowning interest to the
extent of £66.976. In other words, after these redwatione
took frll effect, the shipowner who in 18M paid £lOO on a
' single ship, and who now paid for an over-sea vessel £.50,
and for a coasting vessel £65, would for the future pay only
£4O. In that way it was proposed to dispose cf the surplus
of income over expenditure. With regard to the balance in

SUP PLY.

hand it was thought that that would not be more than suf-

ficient for the new buildings and lights which were ren-
dered necessary from time to time by the requirements of
the trade.

INLAND REVENUE BILL.

In reply to Mr. HENLEY,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could postpone this bill till the 19th, but he did not think
he could fix it for an evening sitting, as it was necessary to
get forward with supply. The provisions of the bill were
mostly provisions of relaxation, and if ;there were any con-
troverted points he would postpone them till next session.
ELECTION LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

In reply to Mr. HUNT,
Sir G. LEWIS said it was his wish to proceed with this
bill, but in consequence of the slow progress of the com-
mittee of supply, it was necessary to give precedence to the
estimates over every other subject. He would state on an
early day what it was proposed to do with the bill.
BANKRUPTCY BILL.

In reply to Mr. CRAWFORD,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he believed it was the intention
to proceed with this bill on Monday, but he could not say
positively that it would come on then.

IRREMOVABLE POOR BILL.

In reply to Mr. HENLEY,

Mr. VILLIERS said that as this bill had gone through
a good deal of discussion during the day, that was a reason
why it might be brought on late at night. (A laugh.)
Mr. HENLEY—After what hour at night would it not
be taken ?

Mr. VILLIERS would not bring it on after two.
(Laugbter.)
THE WEDNESDAY SITTING.

In reply to Mr. HENNESSY,

Lord J. RUSSELL said, as the Queen was not in Lon-
don, it was not the intention of the Government to adjourn
over to-morrow. (Hear.)

NAVY RESERVED LIST OF CAPTAINS.

Mr. B. COCHRANE, in rising to move that the case of
the captains placed on the reserved list by order of council
in 1851 be referred to the Attorney-General for his opinion,
said that previous to 1851 there was promotion by brevet,
and when that was discontinued it was felt to be a great
hardship on the officers of the navy. They asked therefore
to obtain permission for a certain number of captains to have
their names placed not on the retired list but on the re-
served list; that was to say they were to be considered on the
active list as regarded scale of pay and promotion, but were
not to be expected to peform active duties except in time of
war. As a proof that this was the understanding several of
them received the GroAnwich out-pension. Now, when 13
oftheseofficers would receive 18s. a day half pay on that
understanding of the transaction, an order came from the
Board
of Admiralty stating that they were officers on the
retired list, and were notc to expect the additional pay.
uncilwaseranothstea.mbigucus, and the Board of Ad-
His noble friend (Lord
order in so
i,mriivrianlgty7h7 had
tremhozdeiflleara
aPaget) had admitted that the
injusticeta done by that order by
pittance of sixpence or a shilling
a day. He asked the house to justice to those merito-
rious men. Here had some of them°
and they were engaged in all the
hilrueat actions of the
to accept the terms proposed been serving since 1803,
ced
the repre-
war with France. They had been
hopes
sprwoeposed to
sentations of the Admiralty
them, and they were now told that their
disappointed. An eminent Queen's counsel (Mr. Lushe)tohabde
been consulted upon their case, and had given an opinion
that if the contract were within the cognisance of the courts
of law the claims of the captains would be held to be well
founded, and would be enforced. Under these circum-
stances he hoped the noble lord would agree to his proposi-
tion, and refer the case to the Attorney-General.
Admiral WALCOTT seconded themotion. He had always
held that these officers had been treated with injustice. He
would not repeat the statement of the many gallant actions
in which they had been engaged, and they now only asked
for a moderate requital of their services.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thought it reasonable that the
noble lord should agree to his hon. friend's proposition.
These gentlemen were astonished and horrified at finding
what was the Admiralty version of the contract with them,
and they had referred their case to eminent Queen's counsel.
He thought the Admiralty would do well to accede to their
demands, which appeared to him to be founded upon jus-
tice. If a violation of good faith were perpetrated in their
case, no man would henceforth come into the navy without
taking the opinion of counsel upon the terms offered by the
Admiralty.

Lord C. PAGET said he did not think it was advisable
that her Majesty's order in council should be referred to a
legal opinion. He denied that he had said that the order in
council was ambiguous. What he stated was that these
officers considered that it was open to doubt. The intention
of the Admiralty of that day was that these officers were not
to rise paripassu with other officers. It could never hive
been their intention to place these officers upon the same
footing as officers on the active list. With any such a regu-
lation it would be impossible to conduct the business of the
navy, The general question of the promotion of active and

TEE SUN,' LONDON,

retired officers was now under the consideration of the com-
mittee—the case of these officers was under the considera-
tion of that committee, and he would not therefore make
any observation as to the justice of their claims.
The house then divided. The numbers were :
For the motion 33
Against it .. ....... 6O
Majority —27
Sir G. C. LEWIS obtained leave to bring in a bill for
the amendment of the acts relating to the payment of the
expenses of prosecutions ; also a bill to continue an act of
the 11 and 12 of her Majesty relating to the collection of
county cess in Ireland.
On the motion of Sir G. C. LEWIS, Mr. Buxton and Mr.
Cubitt were added to the select committee on the Courts of
Justice Building Act (Money) Biil.
THE DEALERS IN OLD METALS BILL.

This bill passed through committee with verbal amend-
ments.

THE COUNTY VOTERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

The house went again late committee on this bill.
On clause 23, having reference to the time of holding
the registration courts.

Mr. BLACKBURN suggested that as the list of claims
would be made up to and published on the 14th October.
no list should be revised earlier than the 15th October, but
after some discussion the clause was, without amendment
agreed to.

Clauses 24 to 32 were agreed to.
On clause 33,
Sir J. FERGUSSON moved an addition to the clause,
to the effect that no person whose name should appear on
the register of any county should be entitled to vote in the
election of members if he should have become divested of
and ceased to hold that qualification in respect of which he
was registered.

The-LORD ADVOCATE objected to the proviso, be-
lieving that it would be wholly unnecessary. The person
whose name would be on the roll would vote in respect of
the rates which he would have to pay.
Sir J. FERGUSSON submitted that the voter ought to
be entitled to the franchise in respect of the possession, and
not because he paid rates and taxes.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE said the principle of this bill had
been in force in Scotland for several years in boroughs, and
he saw no reason why it should not be applied to the
counties.

Mr. MURE urged the adoption of the amendment.
After some conversation the hon. baronet withdrew his
amendment.

Clauses to 40 inclusive was agreed to.
Clause 42.
Sir J. FERGUSSON moved the omission of the clause,
The committee divided—

Ayes
Noes l6

Majority
The clause was then agreed to, as were the remaining
clauses, and the bill was reported to the house.
QUEENSLAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.

Mr. MARSH said the bill proposed to give the magis-
trates by order in council the right to alter the boundaries
of the existing colony of New South Wales, and to make
roads. He proposed to enlarge those powers, leaving them
unrestricted by any Act of Parliament. Under the present
system there was no local government, but all matters
usually dealt with by local governments were under the
control of the central authorities at Sydney. He thought
that by separating these colonies, and making them into
smaller communities, would have the effect of doing away
with many of the existing evils. He hoped the amend •
ment would be agreed to.
Mr. FORTE SCUE said the issue raised by his hon.
friend was an important, though a simple one. The pro-
position of his hon. friend was, that the Crown should dis-
tribute amongst the existing colonies the unoccupied terri-
tories lying to the south of a certain line. There was a good
deal to be said in giving sucfi a power to the Crown ; but
the fact was, no such demand was made by any Australian
governor or legislature, or by any body of the population.
Under these circumstances it was thought better to leave
well alone. The only difference between the proposal in
the bill and that of his hon. friend was this, that if his hon.
friend's amendment were adopted the Secretary for the
Colonies would have power to detach any portions of these
territories from one colony for the purpose of attaching
them to another, whereas as the bill stood he would be
obliged to ask Parliament for any such power. lie thought
it better not to make divorce in this matter, as in unions of
another kind, too easy.

Mr. CHILDERS was of opinion that the colonies should
be left to govern themselves, and if there was to be any ex-
ception to that rule it was in defining the size of the several
colonies, and the extent of their territories. For this reason
he hoped the committee would agree to the amendment of
his hon. friend.

The amendment was negatived and the clause was agreed
to, as were the remaining clauses.

The report on supply was brought up and agreed to, after
which the house went into committee of supply.

Thu following votes were wgreoa to ,—Z72,2,67 for the
expenses of the Mint ; £21,305 inspectors of factories ;
£6,284 Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in the
Exchequer and offices of Scotland.
On the vote of £6,431 for the household of the Lord

Lieutenant of Ireland,
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of some of the offices as
useless. There was a sum of £257175. for "two gentlemen
at large." (Laughter.)
Mr. VANCE defended the vote, and submitted that none
of the offices of which the expenses were defrayed by it were
unnecessary, and that the amount was extremely moderate.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there was no such office as that
of gentleman at large in the Queen's household, and there
were many others in the Lord-Lieutenant's household
equally unnecessary and inexplicable.
Mr. WHITE said that if the office of the Lord-Lieutenant
was to be maintained it was useless to squabble about the
items in the vote. He stated that he had been told that the
duty ea gentleman at large was to water the camelias of
the Lady-Lieutenant. (Laughter.)
The vote was agreed to. _ _

The votes of £10,339 for the expenses of the office of the
Chief Secretary; of £2,585 for the office of the Inspector of
Lunatic Asylums in Ireland; of £24,570 for the Board of
Public Works, Ireland ; of £33,091 for the Commissioners
of Audit; of £20,022 for the Copyhold Enclosure and Tithe
Commission ; of £12,190 for the expenses of the Enclosure
and Drainage Acts; of £47,163 for the General Register
offices ; of £14,482 for the National Debt-office ; of £4,120
for the Public Works Loan Commission and West India
Islands Relief Commission; and of £1,222 for the General
Superintendent of County Roads in South Wales were
agreed to.

The following votes were also agreed to:—
£2,275 for office of Registrar of Friendly Societies.
£17,398 for Charity Commission.
£7,055 for Local Government Act office and inspection of
burial grounds.

£1,192 for agricultural and emigration statistics (Ireland).
£2,113 for General Register offices.
£1,644 for Quarantine.
On the vote of £33,000 for secret service money.
Mr. A. SMITH moved that it be reduced by £lO,OOO, the
balance remaining from the vote of last year.
After a short discussion the amendment was negatived
without a division, and the vote agreed to.
A vote of £266,218 was then proposed for the Stationery-
office, making, together with the sum already voted on ac-
count, a total of £416,218.
Mr. PEASE complained of the great waste of money upon
the printing of the house, and inquired whether any attempt
had been made to reduce the amount. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the comptroller of the Stationery-
office was very attentive to the reduction of the expenditure
in all branches of that department. The chief expense arose
from the printing for both Houses of Parliament, and any
reduction in it depended more on the discretion of members
than vu the gt.tionciy-uMee. (Hear, near.) it was, m-
casionally the duty of members of the executive Government
to remonstrate against very voluminous returns which were
moved for to meet the tastes or wishes of individual mem-
bers rather than for the general use of the house, to which
they were uninteresting. But that was a matter on which
the house was quite competent to form a judgment, and it
was only by the discretion of the house that this item could
be brought within moderate limits. During the last session
on the suggestion of the Stationery-office, the practice had
been introduced of printing the evidence taken before com-
mittees in double columns and in smaller type, and it had
been attended by considerable economy. The Government
had endeavoured to diminish the bulk of appendices to re-
ports of commissions, but it often happened that after reports
had been presented, some supplemental papers which the
commissioners in their discretion had omitted were moved
for. There was consequently very great difficulty in keep-
ing the expenditure for printing within moderate bounds.
Mr. A. SMITH denied that the great bulk of the vote
was for the printing of the Houses of Parliament, and ad-
verted to the largeness of the item for the printing of the
War Department.

Mr. F. PEEL said that Mr. M'Culloch, the comptroller
of the Stationery-office, exercised a
the most rigid economy
in that department. notet
department
appended to the estimates
Mr. M'Culloch said that them for the War Department
expected, considering the
was less than might have been
great extension which that
had recently
tt
orely on h
under-
gone.
Sir T. TRELAWNY said the house ough
executive government reducing the charge
for
uFßsEcEomLAmNunDicsaateidd,thiant
the
elaofinr.s members ehismbtearn printing.s w
Mr.
rn instance,
with the
departments which prepared thew, they could o moved
for returns
materially
diminish their bulk, and consequently the expense.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought there was a great deal of
unnecessay printing for the house. The charge of £1,550
for the ecclesiastical department was objectionable, and un-
less he received some satisfactory explanation on the subject
he should move that the vote be reduced by that amount.
Mr. WMAHON believed that if there was only one uni-
form edition of acts of Parliament, instead of three as at
present, much expense might be saved.
Mr. BLACK bore testimony to the valuable services of
Mr. M'Culloch in reducing the expenditure of the Sta-
tionery-office.
Sir F, SMITH suggested as a remedy that the Uovern-

WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 10, 1861.

ment should prepare a return of the cost of each return,
with the name of the member who moved for it.

Mr. A. SMITH said the cost of printing for the Houses
of Parliament was really small compared with the other
items.

Mr.W. ILLIAM S 'moved that the sum of £1,550, being
the amount required for the ecclesiastical department,
should be omitted from the vote.

The motion was negatived without a division.
On the question that the vote be reduced by £2lB, on the
motion of the hon. member for Edinburgh,
Sir J. TRELAWNY and Mr. BARROW complained
of the great and unnecessary amount of printing done in
the shape of blue books that were never read, and in pur-
suance of forms of the house, which.might be dispensed
with advantageously.
Mr. F. PEEL explained that printingfor public purposes
was executed at ordinary rates, but what was termed Par-
liamentary printing was done at higher rates, though they
had been greatly reduced a year or two ago. He could not
concur in the statement of the hon. member for Edinburgh
with regard to the item for pens.
Sir H. WILLOU GHBY said that nothing could be more
clear than that there was no control over that expenditure.
The expenditure in the War-office was £70,000, in the Ad-
miralty £24,000, and in the Patent-office as much. The
estimates were increasing too, and the whole was £BO,OOO
more than in the previous year. The amount of unneces-
sary printing was most extravagant, in illustration of which
he might only mention that no waggon could carry the
number of Parliamentary publications on the slave trade.
The motion to reduce the vote by £2lB was then put and
negatived.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was impossible to control
the expenditure for stationery in the departments, except
through the hads of them. It was true, for instance, that
there was a large increase for the War-office, but the com-
mittee should remember that, great as was the increase,
there was a large economy in printing the forms and docu-
ments of the department, instead of having them written.
As regarded the share of the house in the reproach due to
the increased expenditure, the proportion was stated on au-
thority, and did not depend upon the assertion of his hon.
friend ; but every one must be struck with the number of
unnecessary returns which were ordered, and he thought
many hon. gentlemen would do well to imitate the example
of the hon. member for Lambeth, and avoid motions for re-
turns when they had the opportunity of doing so.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY complained that the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury had not answered
his question. If the heads of departments could have as
much printing and stationery as they liked, he was only
surprised that the vote was not £600,000 instead of
£416,000.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he thought in this matter they
might take a useful lesson from the practice of the House
of Representatives at Washington. (Oh, and laughter.) It
was well known that he was no admirer of the institutions
of the United States—(hear, hear)—but in this instance
they offered them an example which they might do well to
copy. He did not admire the institutions of the United
States in many respects, but he thought they might be imi-
tated usefully on this point. At the very 'commencement
of the sessions full returns were presented with regard to
taxation and other matters, and that prevented the neces•
sity far moving for returns. The absence of that informa-
tion greatly enhanced the expenses under that head.
Mr. BLACK said that the cost of the blue books was
greatly increased by having them printed upon large paper
with lines running across the whole page, whereas if smaller
paper was used, and a smaller type with double columns,
the cost would be reduced nearly one-half.
The vote was then agreed to.
Votes of sums to defray the salaries and expenses of the
Metropolitan Police, the Queen's Prison, the Revising Bar-
risters of England and Wales, the Lord Advocate and Soli-
citor-General of Scotland, the Courts of Session, the Judi-
ciary Courts, Criminal Prosecutions in Scotland, and other
legal and administrative establishments, were agreed to
without discussion.

Votes for the legal and administratives charges in Ireland
were next proceeded with and agreed to up to
£696,947 for the constabulary force in Ireland, upon
which
Mr. CHILDERS moved that the item of £3,400 for
stationery and postage be omitted.
The committee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the amendment • 44
Against
Majority —32
On the vote being then put,
Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH said the identical sums for
stationery- and postage had been already voted, and he
should therefore move that the Chairman should report
progress.
Mr. CARDWELL said before the report was brought
up inquiry should be made whether the hon. member was
right, and if it appeared that any mistake had been com-
mitted the error should be rectified.
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS hoped the hon. member would
persist in his motion to report progress.
The vote was, however, put and agreed to, the motion to
report progress not being pressed.
The following votes were also agreed t0:—£2,217 to de-
fray the expenses of the Four Courts, Maraholacsi- Frisian,
Dublin.

On the vote for £17,005 to defray the expense and super-
vision over all the prisons in the United Kingdom,
An Hon. Member said, owing to the report of the Com-
mittee on Transportation, and the decrease of the number
of persons sentenced to penal servitude, he proposed to re-
duce the vote by £15,000. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHILDERS expressed his approval of the course
taken by the Government, and rejoiced to see such a spirit
of economy prevailing.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that it was not economy. The
expenses would be the same—this was only a reduction of
the margin.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was £191,976 for the maintenance of the
prisoners in county gaols, reformatory institutions, and
lunatic asylums, which was agreed to.
On the vote of £15,776 to defray the charges and expenses
connected with the transportation of prisoners,
Mr. CHILDERS moved a reduction in this vote to the
extent of £6,000. He referred to the committee which had
sat on the subject, who found that, in the last three years
the numbers received into the convict prisons had been less
by 1,300 than the number of those discharged. The result
was, it had been,' and would be impossible to continue

transportation unless they altered the length of the sen-
tences, and the arrangements in the convict colonies. He
thought they had better abandon transportation altogether;
but'the majority of the committee thought that, out of 500
or 600 long-sentenced men, one ship load, say from 200 to
300, might be sent out annually to Western Australia, Ber-
muda, or Gibraltar. The number of convicts decreasing,
they could not keep up all three of these establishments
unless they altered their whole system. If transportation
should be continued, it should be to Western Australia, as
the colonists did not object to it, with sufficient safeguards
as respects the neighbouring colonies. The number tran-
sported being thus reduced, ho proposed a reduction in the
the vote. This was quite consistent with the report of the
committee ; and he believed that this proposition would
receive the support of all the members of that committee,
who had gone minutely into the question.
Mr. F. PEEL said the Government had had under their
consideration the propriety of discontinuing the transpor-
tation of convicts to Bermuda this 3 ear. He had been as•
sured in the course of that day that the full number of con-
victs would be transported this year, so that whether to
Bermuda, Gibraltar, or Western Australia, would not, as
there would be no diminution of numbers, lessen the ex-
pense. It would be impossible therefore to reduce the vote.
Lord ALFRED CHURCHILL would, with very great
pleasure, second the motion. They had it on authority
that there was, and would be, a very great diminution of
convicts. The report of the committee as to transporta-
tion to Bermuda or Gibraltar was not to be considered in
the same light as transportation to Western Australia.
Looking at all the circumstances, it appeared monstrous
that so costly an establishment should beuurrled
_ _

The committee divided and the numbers were—
For the reduction of the vote .... 26
Against it
Majority —76
The vote was then agreed.
The CHAIRMAN was then ordered to report progress, and
the house resumed.
Lord PALMERSTON stated that the education esti-
mates would be brought forward on Thursday.
EAST INDIA CIVIL SERVICE BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL.

This bill was also read a third time and passed.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT AMEND-
MENT (No. 2) BILL.

The committee on this bill was resumed.
On clause 2,
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved that the clause be expunged.

_
Mr. SCIIOLEFIELD defended the clause. It was a
mistake to suppose that the investigation of police cases was
the only duty of the mayor.
Mr. ADDERLEY hoped his hon. friend would persist
in taking the sense of the house.
The committee divided—
For the clause
Against it
Majority _ 69

The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. NEWDEGATE gave notice that he would move
the omission of this clause on the bringing up the report.
(Oh, oh.)
Clauses 3,4, and 5 were agreed to.

. .
Clause 6, after acme discussion, was agreed to, with the
understanding that certain amendments should be brought
up on the report.

The remaining clauses were agreed to and the house
resumed.

TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.

This bill passed through committee.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENT BILL.
This bill passed through committee.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The house \wilt into committee on this bill.
Mr. CLIVE moved after clause 4 (page 1,255).
Agreed to.
The bill passed through commit tee and the house resumed.