The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-05 00:00:00

EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

Mr. DILLWYN gave notice that on going into commit-
tee of supply on the educational votes he would move that
grants for educational purposes should be limited to those
schools which were of an elementary character.
WESTMINSTER NEW PALACE, &c.
Mr. SPOONER moved for returns of the annual ex-
pense of lighting the Houses of Parliament, including the
outside lighting of the courts, New and Old Palace-yards,
the river terrace, west front, and other external parts,
specifying the cost of gas, oil, or wax, and names of the
departments in which they are severally used, and the ex-
pense of each, &c.—Ordered.

POST-OFFICE (CANADIAN MAILS).
Mr. HALIBURTON moved for returns, actual or esti-
mated,iof the gross postage accruing to the Post-office re-
venue of Great Britain during the years 18.59 and MO re-
spectively, on letters, newspapers, and other mail matter
conveyed by the Canadian mail line of steamers ; separat-
ing the outward from the inward receipts, and distinguish-
ing the proportion accruing to international letters, &c.,
passing between the United Kingdom on the one side and
the United States and Canada respectively on the other,
from the proportion accruing on letters, &c. passing between
foreign countries or British colonies.—Ordered.
EAST INDIA COVENANTEDaSOCIETY.
Sir J. PERGUSSON moved an address for copy of the
report of a special committee of the Council of India to the
Secretary.at State upon the subject of opening, upon cer-
tain conditions, the covenanted service of India,,with dis-
sents, if any, therefroin.---Ordered.
EAST INDIA. (COUNCILS IN INDIA).
On the motion of Sir WOOD an address for copy of
the despatches of the Gov7ior..
General of India to the
Secretary of State for India dated the 9th of December,
1859, the 15th and 26th of January 2861, &c., respecting
the constitution of councils in India, was ordered.
EDUCATIONAL FOUNDATION
Mr. G. DUFF asked the Secretary of StatefoBr.the Home
Department, whether the Government was
ad-
vise her Majesty 0 issue her Royal Commission to inquire
prepared to
into the colleges of Eton, Winchester, and Westminster, as
well as of Harrow, Rugby, the Charter-house, Christ's
Hospital, and all endowed, colleg;ate, cathedral, and pre_
bendal schools in Great Britain and Ireland in which the
Greek and Latin languages were taught, ,with a view to
ascertain whether the great resources of these institutions
may not be rendered more serviceable to education and
learning?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that he stated on a former occa•
sion that the Government were prepared to accede to the
proposition for the appointment of the commission. Since
the question had been previously asked he had communi-
cated with the authorities of the principal public schools,
and they seemed generally disposed to afford the commission
every information. Therefore, it would be unnecessary to
ask Parliament to give the commission any compulsory
powers. With reference to the Manchester School, from
special difficulties, the Government had not come to a
conclusion.

GOLD DISCOVERIES IN NOVA SCOTIA.
CAIRD asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies
whether he had received any authentic information re-
garding gold discoveries in Nova Scotia?

Mr. C. FOR.TESCUE said that information that gold•
had been discovered in that colony had been received by
the Government, but in quantities too small to induce
miners to go there.
LONDON IRISH RIFLE CORPS.
Colonel FRENCH asked the Under-Secretary of State
for War if any applieation:had been made to allow the Lon-
don Irish (28th Middlesex) Rifle Volunteer Corps to visit
Dublin this year, and refused ?
Mr. T. G. BARth G said that no such application had
been made, but he thought it right to state that if it had
it would have been refused. 'The Secretary for War
was opposed to these excursions which imposed
an expense on the members of the Volunteer corps, which
they did not wish to decline and which they could not
afford to incur. Besides, at a late excursion of the Volu-
nteer corps they came in collision with the militia, which was
most undesirable.'

REvEirTs or TB-r, ECCLESIASTICAL
COMMISSIONERS.
Mr. G. BENTINCK asked the Secretary of State for the
mom, Dejanztment when the return, ordered on the 4th day
of March last, relative to the receipts by the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners for England, of revenues tlrived from the
estates of 'the Dean and Chapter and Prebends of the
Cathedral Church of St. Paul, London, Would be laid on
the table ? i
Sir (1, C, LEWIS said the return in question Was not

finished, but he hoped to be able to lay it on the table
before the end of the session.
THE GRANT TO THE COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTH.
Mr. WHALLEY moved that this house immediately
resolve itself into a committee to consider the acts for the
endowment of the College of Maynooth, with a view to the
withdrawal of any endo virulent out of the Consolidated Fund,
due regard being had to vested rights and interests. The
hon. member commenced by stating that he felt his inability
to do the same justice to the subject as the hon. member
(Mr. Spooner) had done for so many years in bringing it
before the house. He held in his hand a petition, signed by
7,000 Protestants, who represented the Protestant feeling
of the country, against the continuance of this grant,
and he contended that this feeling had attained to such a
height that it would ultimately succeed in effecting this ob-
ject. He denounced in the strongest manner the doctrine
which he said was inculcated in the minds of Roman
Catholic ecclesiastics, which was founded on the abominable
Jesuit principle that the end justified the means. He
maintained that the success of the Roman Catholic Church
was the end proposed, and any means might be resorted to
in order to promote that end according to that principle.
The grant was made for the better education of
Roman Catholics, not for the special education
of the priesthood. He thought, considering the
establishment of the Queen's Colleges and other
facilities afforded for education in Ireland, that
there was not the slightest plea for the continuance of the
grant. He thought the religious scruples that prevailed
amongst a powerful body in this country 'should
in itself be considered ground sufficient for with-
drawing the grant towards an institution that was
established for the dissemination of doctrines which were
believed by the general community of this country as
dangerous and blasphemous. The hon. member then pro-
ceeded to argue at much length in support of his motion,
and concluded by an earnest appeal to the house.
Sir W. VERNER seconded the motion.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR said he could congratulate his hon.
friend in having met with a seconder to his motion who
united the zeal of English fervour to the Orange loyalty of
the north of Ireland. But if any circumstance more than
another gave a tone to the speech of his hon.friend it was that
spirit of propaganda which that speech displayed, and which
was calculated to arouse the feeling of the house. He stated
that the grant to Maynooth had excited the unmitigated
feeling of Protestants throughout the country. Now he
(Mr. Seymour) did not yield to any one in his respect for
Protestant feeling when it was sincere upon the platform,
or when it was eloquent and pious in the pulpit ; but he did
not think that Protestant feeling was a proper basis for the
votes of legislators. His hon. friend had been led in the
course of his observations to attribute to the Maynooth grant
a great many consequences and results which he would not
enumerate; but he could not agree with his hon. friend that
the destitution of families in Ireland had any fair and legi-
timate connexion with Maynooth, or that the Puseyism of
the English Church had any connexion with thezrant. He
deeply regretted his hon. friend had referred to these topics ;
but his hon. friend had thought proper to refer to him (Mr.
Seymour) in a somewhat personal manner, and to a vote
which he had given 17 years ago, when he was only 22 years
old. If he had given that opinion in the warmth and zeal
of youth, the experience of many years and a deeper ac-
quaintance with the subject had led him to the conclusion
that it was not wise for the sake of the Protestant religion
to maintain in Ireland a church in obstinate and obnoxious
hostility to the feelings of the people. By his amendment
he asked the house to oppose the Maynooth grant on the
same ground as that on which it opposed the regium donum
and the Edinburgh annuity tax. The hon. and learned
member concluded by moving, as an amendment, after the
words " consolidated fund," to insert, " and also to consider
the expediency of withdrawing all other State endowments
and grants for ecclesiastical and religious purposes in Great
Britain and Ireland." (Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. CARDWELL said he understood it as as not the
pleasure of the house to continue at any length this discus-
sion, or rather, he should lay, now to reopen a discussion
which by common consent, both in that and the last session
of Parliament, had been closed. It would not be forgotten
that in the former Parliament, at the suggestion of the right
hon. member for Cambridge University, then Home Secre-
tary, who had then to answer the hon. member for North
WarwickshirerParliament declined to reopen this discussion,
so full of angry feeling and so unprofitable in its results.
This house had came to the same conclusion, and he hoped
the hon. member for Peterborough would not suppose he
meant the slightest disrespect to him when he (Mr. Card-
well) said he was sure, if that house could have been in-
duced to take such a course, it would have been by the argu-
ments of a member whom the house so sincerely valued as
the hon. member for North Warwickshire. (Hear.) He was
sure he was speaking the language of every member of the
house when he said he deeply regretted if from any feeling
personal to himself the hon. member had abandoned his
motion, and he (Mr. Cardwell) should rather hope it arose
from the fact that Parliament had shown itself unfavourable
to the motion itself. It was only right to state that the com-
mission which had examined into this subject had acquitted
the college of anything which was inconsistent with alle-
giance to the Queen, and the conduct of the pupils, gene •
rally speaking, was marked by propriety and virtue. The
hon. member seemed to think it expedient to open a new
agitation, but he hoped the house by its vote that night
would give no encouragement to the attempt. The hon.
member, however, was not sanguine as to his success ;
and like a cautious general he had prepared for himself a
line of retreat. He proposed, if his Motion was unsuccess-
ful, to inquire and report whether the Commentary of Cab-
basatius or Devoti formed a part of the text-book—an in-
vestigation no doubt as useful as it would be profound, in-
asmuch as he (Mr. Cardwell) confessed his total ignorance
of the contents of the Commentaries of Cabbasatius and
Devoti. But if the house entered upon those subjects,
and began to deal with the foundations of religion, he
thought they would have abundant work upon their hands,
and would, moreover, have difficulties to encounter and
anxieties to meet which they might possibly not be pre-

pared for.
Mr. SPOONER could assure the house that he felt
bound to protest against the house, but he was unable, on
account of his health and strength, to continue the active
course in reference to it which he had formerly pursued.
He utterly denied that the question was a closed one, and
felt a stroug conviction that in the long run the Protestant
feeling of the country would demand the Withdrawal of
this grant. He had never gone on any personal grounds,
but he objected to the grant to Maynooth as unconstitu-
tional and in direct opposition to the oath taken by the
Sovereign at the coronation.
After a few words from Mr. SOMES, who was inau-
dible in consequence of the loud call for a division,
Mr. NEWDEGATE explained that the cause why he
had not taken up the question which had so long been ad-
vocated by his hon. colleague wag, that he had been afraid
that if he did so it would appear to be too much of a party
question. His opinion on the subject, however, had un-
dergone no change, and he should cordially support the
motion. Ho could not in any way understand the amend-
ment which was proposed, and trusted that it would not
meet tht acceptance of the horse. The teaching at May-
nooth was the teaching of the Jesuits, and he could not con-
sent to such teaching being carried on by means of a grant
from a Protestant people. He was confident that those who
had so often supported the motion of his hon. colleague for
inquiry into Maynooth, would not fail to support the motion
now before the house.
Mr. V. SCULLY, amid cries of " Divide," said it would
be impossible for him to support the amendment. He was
opposed to all endowments, but could not agree to vote
against them unless they were all included in one measure.
The Trish Established Church would not be touched by the
amendment.
Mr. WHALEY rose to reply, but was met with loud calls
for a division. He moved the adjournment of the debate.
The SPEAKER said the right of the hon. member was
to reply only.
Mr. D. SEYMOUR, finding that the house wished to
di
vide on the original motion, proposed to withdraw his
amendment.

divided The
Aaeymueesrtnh. ameendment
alwasmtehtieonn.withdrawn, and the house
Noes ................................... 119141
BAll.l'olalij o rbt yE a
tg aoi nDs
Et
,thes
PETITION.m . .-77
Mr. DENMAN moved that a select committee be ap..
pointed to consider the allogations of the petition of Baron
de Bode, presented to the house on the 13th April last, and
Ira report to the house thereon,
lie
ha
tee because the case was one which couldd
notad
impartially decided unless by persons who h
moved fora
bfor a commit-
heard
eall the
facts of it. Anticipating the objectionswhich might
to his motion, he denied that the claim of the Baron de
Bode was a stale demand, or that it could be considered res
*ltelicatu. So far from the decision of the house on the ques-
tionj in 1851 being a reason against the present motien, it
that he had
eamcoinneedlutshieencla claim of
Baron de Bode, and had come
was one in its favour. He had
the
good grounds for bringingthe
ammeuneth,
complicated by the delays that had taksn
Though the case was very simple case before
it had been
place, and by legal
before Parli
quibbles. This was not a legal case, or the courts of law
would have been the proper tribunal. It was one of those
,
cases which could not be brought under the
.uria, where
but in
which the maxim applied, Sarum jus sunima ily
moral and equitable right had been destroyed, and the law
had failed to give relief. The late Baron de Bode, the
claimant and father of the petitioner, who was a British sub-
ject, possessed, in 1793, a landed estate in France, which
was in that year confiscated by the revolutionary Govern •
ment of France. By the Treaty of Peace in 1815, the French
Government agreed to pay over to the British Government 1
a large sum of money to meet the claims of British subjects
whose property had been unduly confiscated, and in 1818
the British Government were in possession of that money,
which NV charged with the duty of paying such claims,
including that of the Baron de Bode. The main ground on
which he id not recefve it at that time, was that in an Act
of 1819 it was recited contrary to fact, that all British sub-
jects who Iliad entered their claims had been duly registered.
The Act went on to provide that when all those claims had
been satis :led, the control of the surplus should be absolutely
vested in the Lords of the Treasury, to do what they pleased
with it. Ii was not till 30 years or more from that time that
the liousq ,-;f Lords ultimately decided against the claim of I
the Barmat de Bode, We must, therefore, go back to 1818 to I