The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-20 00:00:00

the spiritual head of the Catholics throughout the world,
it cannot be desirable that her Majesty's Governmenh oui d
take the initiative. (Hear, hear.) Not merely would such
a proceeding involve us in discussions which we are not
the most capable of conducting, but any proposal that we
might make, even though the proposal might be good in
itself, would not be likely to be received with favour by the
Catholic Powers of Burgle°. The noble earl pointed out
the possibility, as he thinks, of some arrangement by
which the temporal sovereignty of the Pope might be dis-
connected from his spiritual authority, but the difficulties
si hick would beset such an agreement between the Catho-
lic Powers must be apparent to your lordship, and if, in
addition, the question were to be discussed by the Protes•
tent Powers, I am sure no ingenuity of man could bring
about a solution of the question. (Hear, hear.) For these
reasons, although her Majesty's Government certainly do
not view with satisfaction the continuance of a state of
things in which the independence of one of the States of
Europe—l mean of those provinces which still remain nomi-
nally under the authority of the Pope—is entirely at an end,
owing to the occupation of that territory by foreign troops,-
I must yet decline to follow the noble lord through the dif-
ferent questions which he has raised. I cannot help observ-
ing that for many years the temporal authority of the Pope
has altogether ceased to exist. Since the year 1819 the inde-
pendence of the Popo as a Sovereign has not existed for a
single hour. His authority, which had been destroyed by
that movement in 1848, the full effects of which we are feel-
ing at the present day, was only restored by the troops o
France and Austria. As long as those troops remained in
his territory, the sovereignty of the Popo was nominally
sustained ; but on the day oa which the Austrian troops left
the territory which they occupied, it ceased to be under even
the nominal authority of the Pope, and it is notorious that
on the day on which the French troops shall be withdrawn
from Rome the sovereignty of the Popo will altogether cease
in every part of his dominions. It is for this reason that the
solution of the question immediately depends upon whether
the French Government shall or shall not withdraw their-
trcorhs from Rome ; and it is clear that, while the reasons
which may have induced the Emperor of the French to con-
tinue that occupation are reasons which it is not desirable
that we should upon this occasion discuss in this house,
there are, as the noble earl has pointed out, many arguments
tending to prove that it would be far better policy to with-
draw those troops. Her Majesty's Government have not dis •
guiied their opinion that it is desirable that those troops
should be withdrawn; but it is clear that there are many
other considerations which must have weight with Ca-
tholic Powers, and that although the matter has been
much discussed, no one has yet pointed out any means by
which, after the withdrawal of those troops, the spiritual
authority of the Pope can be reconciled with his new po-
sition. Ido not say that that problem may not be solved,
but it cert tinly is not for her Majesty's Government
to devise the means of such a reconciliation. It seems
that a most erroneous idea prevails in some portions
of her Majesty's dominions, and in other parts of Europe,
as to the part which her Majesty's Government have taken
and are taking in these transactions ; because it is stated,
and it is believed, I suppose, by some persons, that the chief
object and end of the Government, especially of my noble
friend who is at the head of the Foreign-office, has been to
put an end to the authority of the Pope. It is supposed that
he is the chief enemy of the head of the Catholic Church,
ani that his aim throughout has been to undermine the
authority of the Pope, and to place him in a situation in
which that authority can no longer be maintained. All I
can say is that her Majesty's Government have carefully
abstained from taking a prominent part in the discussion of
thoie questions which especially affect the Pope. The'ytake
a deep interest in everything which relates to the Italian
Peninsula, and they have used their moral influence to secure
for the Italian people the opportunity of carrying out their
Own views, but they have all along thought that it was not
for a Protestant Power to take a prominent part in the dis-
cussion of questions relating to the head of the Catholic
Church. (Hear.) As regards the ether portions of the noble
earl's speech, I might be excused from entering at all upon
the very important and very varied topics which he has dis-
cussed, more espdially upon that most important question
as to the possession of Venetia by the Emperor of Austria.
My lords, all that I can say upon that matter is that her
Majesty's Government are most anxious—as anxious as the
noble earl can be—that peace should be maintained. (Hear,
hear.) The advice which they have given to each of the
parties is, not to be the assailant ; and I am confident that
he who is the assailant will not only incur a most grave and
weighty responsibility, but will not receive the sympathy
which the party who is attacked 'will always command. A
great work has been begun and has been carried out in
Italy,and I cannot help hoping that those Italian statesmen
who ma- sway the destinies of that peninsula will be wise
enough to see that time is required for the consolidation of i
the fabric which they have constructed, and that if they
can present to Europe the spectacle of an united people,
peaceably working out their own independence, they will be
doing more to promote the solution of those questions as to
Rome and Venetia which they so ardently desire than they
could accomplish by any attempt to destroy the present
territorial arrangements of Europe. (Cheers.)
The Earl of CLARENDON, to Whom the Earl of Derby
gave way, said—Although 1 was fully prepared for the an-
swer which my noble friend has given to the noble earl
opposite, I cannot help expreising my satisfact'on at learn-
ing that her Majesty's Government have not been em-
ployed in matters where I think their interference would
be prejudicial, and my confident hope and expectation that
they will adhere to the same prudent policy of leaving the
settlement of the Roman question, which is essentially a
Catholic question, to the Catholic Powers of Europe. At
the same time, I must say that I entirely agree with the
noble earl opposite in the speech which has been listened to
with equal admiration on both sides of the house. I think
that the Roman question is of vital impel tanee to Italy,
and that Rome most certainly ought to be the capital of that
country. If it be not, the differences between the various
States will stand in the way of the uaity of Italy, whereas
all the States would agree in choosing for the capital the
city of Roma, which combines all the requisites, historical,
religious, and local, for the capital of a great country, and
which, moreover, has none of those municipal recollections
which would interfere with the establishment of constitu-
tional government. But this can be effected only with the
consent of France, and in consequence of the convictions of
the Catholic Powers of Europe that, Rome being the capital
of Italy, the independence of the Pope can be secured, and
that the civil authorities would not interfere with spiritual
matter?, or with the power and authority of the Church.
I say that we could not interfere in such' questions as these
without prejudice to the result at which we desire to arrive ;
we could not help to settle either of those questions which
must be solved before there is any chance of Rome being
constituted the capital of Italy. We may address ourselves
to the French Government ; we may express our desire, in
terms as earnest as those which have been employed
by the noble earl, that the French garrison should be
withdrawn from Rome; W 3 may app al to the principle of
non-intervention in the affairs of Italy which was volun-
tarily adopted by the Emperor himself; we may declare
that as long as the Roman question is unsettled Italy will
be unsettled, and that, as the noble earl has said, the dan-
ger of war will constantly be incurred; but, argue as we
may, we shall not be able to disguise from ourselves that
the question of Rome is a French almost as much as it
is an Italian question, and that, with the grave political
and religious considerations for France which it involves,
the Emperor will claim to be the sole judge of what it is
expedient to do in the interests of that country. (Hear,
hear.) It is perfectly true, as the noble earl has said, that
the expedition of 1849 was undertaken in order to repress
democracy. It was a great error. It has proved a griev-
ous misfortune to the subjects of the Fope, and continues
-to be a sore embarrassment to France. The French Go-
vernment were not slow in discovering the error of that
expedition, because even while the Pope was still at Gaeta
he positively rejected those administrative reforms
which were proposed to him and refused to return to Rome
except in the plenitude of the most unrestricted power
which hgel been enjoyed by any of his predecessors. Upon
that condition he returned. With that condition he has
tolerated no interference, and for the past 12 years the
French army has been the Roman police, the passive spec-
tators of act, which they have reprobated, and the respon-
sible protectors of the worst Government in Europe. I be-
lieve that the humiliation of the position of the French army
at Rome has long been felt by the Emperor. (Hear, hear,
from Lord Derby.) I believe that his desire to withdraw
that army is perfectly sincere: There is abundant evidence
of that in the papers which have been laid before the French
Chambers, and in those despatches of M. Thouvenel which
at the time they were written, were certainly not intended
'for publication. I believe that the Emperor 'Omitted
General Lamoriciere to take service with the Pope in
the expectation that he would organise a force sufficient
to maintain tranquillity, without forelgu aid to
secure the personal safety of the public, and to repress the
Just discontent of the Pope's subjects ; and that if General
Garibaldi's expedition to Sicily had been delayed for another
°nth, the French garrison would have been withdrawn
8r:2_110131e. But, having reference to the events which have
eei`rie, Zurred, particularly considering the feelings and
which have recently been manifested in the French
'''''Mb"B, and the natural impatience of the existing state
Emperor Wei,
tf
t4he not oriously exists at Rome, I think that the
withdraw Lie French may well say that if he were now to
France but Cattepou from Rome, not alone Catholic
sponsiblo for anyll Earope would hold him personally re-
heult or injury which the Pope might
sustain. (Hear.)
the Emperor will not it.:,,Trefore, that we may be sure that
hour sooner than he thinks that his forces from Rome one
dhoat it will be safe for himself
and ea.pedient for Prance tr)
unless, indeed, the Pope .
wero spot tineously t 3 consent t
50 _unless,
otalh
that
becoming the capital
of Italy, and to the installetion
of the Italian
ecc,vernment and Parliament,
vatztehroeihtsiptiontaneouslfto
trenounce that by measures to
praissented his
unple.ees and
*own independence would be secured, and the
powers of the Church would be preserved uninielted No MC can say that such an event is impossible, isle one
can. deny that it is highly improbable, but I am certain that
any interference on our part would render it still more one
likely, if not impossible. (hear.) I cannot agree with the
ogle earl opposite that the occupation of Rome by the
Frenoh army is unpopular. I believe that the more we
press for its cessation the more it will be believed that we
have some selfish object in view, and the more difficult will
it become for the Enverg to withdrtiw his trope, We

must remember that we have no regular diplomatic rela-
tions with Rome, and that the Pope would be apt to re-
ceive any irregular communication with suspicion. He
might very fairly say that on the political part of the ques-
tion we are not impartial, because we are determined at
almost any price to secure the unity of Italy; and that on
the religious part of the question our interest as Pro-
testants inclines us to regard with favour whatever will
weaken his power. But, my lords, means may and I trust
will be discovered for reconciling the spiritual independence
of the Holy See with the exercise of the temporal power
of the King of Italy in that territory. I believe that those
means will be found in the operation of time and in thepro-
gress of events, in the good government, order, tranquillity,
and increasing prosperity of the countries adjacent to the
dominions of the Pope, and above all in the growing dis-
content of the Pope's subjects, in his straitened revenues,
and in the impossibility of his continuing to the pres..sure from
ne-
gotiate for the u
me d
the be mostHely unwiseseein
all sides.flle stlanthdinfkretehsatt
etxheerPcisoepeomig
of
his
et
etphiernitualpifohweerd,iadnndotthmeeKeti
a spirit of the kindest and most reverential liberality.
anyngo flt
suchal ye
vwe rotuulrde sinfrdoe
(Hear, hoar.) Our efforts should be confined, as they
have hitherto been, and as I am sure they will con-
tinue to be, to an endeavour to check th© interven-
tion of other Powers in the affairs of Italy. We
must never disguise our determination that the moral
influence of England will be used to prevent the restoration
of Governments which must bring vengeance in their train,
and which can never claim the confidence and affection of
the pecq le; and must continue to do what wo can, as it was
expressed in the Speech from the Throne, to secure for the
Italians liberty to manage their affairs for themselves. As
far as they have yet had an opportunity of doing so they
have shown remarkable prudence and moderation. (Hear.)
For years past they have been reduced by oppressive Go-
vernments and foreign bayonets to that state in which men
are most unfit for a free constitution; but during the last
year and a half they have exhibited a patience, moderation,
and good sense which have exceeded the expectations of
of their most enthusiastic friends. (Hear, hear.) The last
general election has been conducted with so much peace
and order, the people have displayed so much sound judg-
ment in resisting the appeals made to their passions and in
selecting the men whom they deemed best fitted to promote
the national interests, that, though there are many and
most formidable difficulties yet to be overcome, I think we
cannot feel otherwise than hopeful that better days are in
store for Italy, and that she may yet fulfil her destiny as an
united nation. (Hear.) I understand and respect the desire
of many Roman Catholics, that the supreme head of their
Church should exercise, in all its plenitude, his temporal
and spiritual power; but I agree with my noble friend the
Under-Secretary that they are not justified in saying, either
with regard to her Majesty's Government, or with regard
to the noble lord at the head of the Foreign Department,
that the temporal or spiritual authority of the Pope has
been interfered with. We desire only to behold the subjects
of his Holiness prosperous and contented, and we are not
debarred from looking at the Pope as one of the Sovereigns
of Europe, and from seeing—what it is impossible we can
close our eyes to—that he stands in a position different from
any other Sovereign, for he has, in fact, no temporal power
at all. He has delegated his power to other authorities, one
in the capital and another in the provinces, who exer-
cises it for him. There cannot be the slightest doubt
of what my noble friend the Under Secretary has said, that
the moment that the pressure of foreign forces is with-
drawn the nullity of the Pope's power will become manifest.
Nothing can be more certain than that the day when the
French army quits Rome the Pope's subjects will throw off
their allegiance. The reason, it appears to me, why the
Pope can never retain his temporal authority is, that his
subjects can never rely on the establishment of such a
Government as shall justly command their obedience and
loyalty. For this Ido not blame the present Pope or any
of his predecessors, because, without destroying the basis on
which the Papacy has always rested, and without departing
altogether from the system which has prevailed for cen-
turies, I believe it to be impossible for any Pope to
grant those reforms which the spirit of the age and the
exigencies of the times require. Advice and warnings have
for the last 40 years been given to the Pope by the Catholic
Powers of Europe, and the answer which has been returned
has in substance been invariably the same as that which
Cardinal Attonelli lately gave to the Marquis de Gra •
mont—Le Pape ne tiansi:gera jamas. The Pope will not
grant those political reforms which he believes to be incon-
sistent with his spiritual rights. The Papacy is the purest
absolutism, and in all those questions which vitally affect
the social wellbeing of the people the Church claims to be
the sole and exclusive judge, and never has consented, and
never will, to any compromise. (Hear, hear.) It is the
custom in this country to regard the secularisation of the
Papal Government as the panacea for all the evils from
which the subjects of the Pope are now suffering; but in
the immutable and inevitable condition of the Papal Go-
vernment such a process is impossible. A cardinal must
be Secretary of State, for he is the President of the Council
of Ministers, the pivot, in fact, on which the whole ma-
chinery of the Papal Government works. Ecclesiastical
Ministers are necessary at home, ecclesiastical agents
abroad. Civil causes must be tried before ecclesiastical
tribunals. The Pope is himself at the head of the Inqui-
sition and cannoteielegate his power to a layman. A.o the
temporal must in all respects be subservient to the spiri-
tual authority of a Sovereign, the Pope can grant no sub-
st intial reforms, and this alone would be an insurmountable
obstacle to the re-establishment of his temporal power
under a system of constitutional government. I think,
therefore, that the Pope must already see or will soon
become sensible that his lost provinces can only be recovered
for him by a foreign army, and that his present territory
can only be retained under his nominal authority by a
never-ceasing foreign occupation. That is simply impos-
sible, tind I trust some means will be found of reconciling
what is called " the inexorable logic of events" with the
personal independence and spiritual supremacy of the Pope.
I think, however, that we Protestants have nothing to do
with an arrangement of so delicate a nature, which may
safely be left to the operation of time. (Cheers.)
The Earl of DERBY—Whatever falls from ley noble
friend is well entitled t 3 the attention of your lordships,
and I feel that we are indebted to him for the clear and
manly statement which he has made. (Hear, hear.) He
has stated in the fullest and frankest manner what are his
own views on this important question. In some points I
entirely concur in the opinion of my noble friend. He has
laid down the principle that the rights of Austria over her
Venetian territories are as valid as the rights of any Sove-
reign
over any portion of his dominions. (Hear, hear.) I
agree with him, and at the same time I concur with my
noble friend in thinking that the continued possession of
that territory by Austria may be a source of constant diffi-
culties and differences between Austria and the Italian
kingdom, between whom it is most important that, if it be
possible, all causes of difference should be withdrawn, and
that those States should be united in the bonds of harmony
and peace. (Hear.) I further concur with my noble friend,
and I am sure your lordships will concur also in thinking,
that whatever may be our personal feelings—whatever we
may wish, whatever may be the sentiments of the country
—the Power which first resorts to the fearful alternative of
war will incur an awful responsibility, and lose altogether
the sympathies which, but for the means adopted, she would
otherwise command. (Cheers.) In the very few observations
which I shall make I shall confine myself exclusively to the
subject to which my noble friend's question more imme-
diately referred— the particular difficulty with which not we,
but Europe has to deal, viz., the question of the Pope. And
I think I may congratulate your lordships and the country
that, whatever differences of opinion there may be between
us as to the final settlement which is desirable with regard
to this Italian question, there is on all sides of the house—
I am sure there is. on this side, and I rejoice to hear there
is on the part of her Majesty's Government and on the part
of those who represent more or less independent opinions,
like my noble friend who has just sat down—one concurrent
opinion, that with regard to the internal settlement of the
Roman territory her Majesty's Government is not only
justified but required to maintain the principle of the
strictest non-interference. (Cheers.) I entirely concur in
what was stated by the noble lord the Under Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, and confirmed by the expression
of the opinions of my noble friend who had just sat down,
that if anything were wanted to complicate the difficulties
of this question it would be the fact of England—a Pro-
testant country—taking an active part in endeavouring to
settle the affairs of the Roman State. (Cheers.) So strongly
have I always felt upon this question that at the time when
the Government with which I had the honour to be con-
nected were using all their efforts to prevent the war which
unfortunately broke out between France and Austria, we
were pressing both parties to endeavour to come to some
terms of agreement with the very object which the question
has in view—namely, of reconciling the spiritual supre-
macy and authority of the Pope with the general peace and
tranquillity of Italy. The formation of a kingdom of Italy
was not then contemplated by
any one, but in giving our
advice we did not hesitate to say that the Catholic Powers
were particularly, and especially the Governments, bound to
deal with the Roman question, and that, while we would

give every assistance, we felt that to place ourselves in the
first line would not only bo objectionable in point of prin-
ciple, but a serious impediment to the practical success of
any undertaking or any effort to bring about a settlement.
(Hear.) Therefore, I cordially assent to the principle laid
down by the noble lord the Under Secretary of State—that
this is a question in which it is not expedient for this coun-
try to interfere either by diplomacy or by negotiations.
(Cheers.) We are less likely to do goad than to do harm by
such interference—(hear)—and I rejoice to hear from the
noble lord that her Majesty's Government have not engaged
in any such negotiations or any such correspondence.
(Cheers.) Nevertheless. I must be permitted to say that I
look upon this Roman question as one which as long as it
remains unsettled must keep unsettled the prospect of
retaining peace. (Hear.) It is a question of the greatest
difficulty and of the greatest delicacy. It would be a ques-
tion of no difficulty whatever were we dealing with only a
temporal Sovereign. But it is a question full of difficulty
and embarrassment when we arc dealing with one :who
unites in his own person the capacities of a temporal Sove-
reign and of the spiritual head of another Church. (Hear.)
.zu list also be permitted to say that is not a matter of in-
difference to ad
what Position the country,
as regards English
interests, in
Principle ope should stand. It has ever been the
ontub. policy that the head of the RomaA

Church should be independent. It is a matter of the utmost
consequence to this country that he, to whose spiritual
authority and power large numbers of our fellow-country-
men, as well as many millions of our fellow Christians in
other parts of the world, give a ready and willing obedience
—that he who claims at their hands that obedience and
those obligations of duty should be himself in a position in-
dependent to act, free from the dictation and control of any
foreign :Power—which, by maintaining that authority in
his hands, which it is very difficult to separate within
the limits of spiritual and temporal authority, may be
exercising an amount of authority extremely dangerous to
the wellbeing and safety of this country. (Cheers.)
Let no man suppose that it is a matter of indiffer-
ence to us whether the Pope is an independent prince
or not. The extent of his temporal power is a matter
wholly and entirely distinct from his independence. Indeed,
my noble friend adverted to the possible idea that, while
wishing to put an end to the present state of things, some
Protestant object might be served by some weakening of the
spiritual power of the Pope. I confess that, if I were de-
sirous of destroying or injuring that spiritual power, I should
think I could do nothing so effectual for the object as to
promote a continuance of the present state of things. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot conceive a position more embarrassing to
Europe, more painful to conscientious Roman Catholics, or
more painful to the Pope himself, than the self-contradic-
tory position in which he is at this moment placed. My
noble friend who has just sat down, and also the noble lord
the Under-Secretary of State, have pointed out that for
many years the Pope has not possessed any temporal power,
in the way in which we speak of it with regard to other Sove-
reigns. He is maintained in his temporal authority in oppo-
sition to the will of the vast majority of the people over
whom his rule extends, by the intervention and presence of
foreign troops. If this were the case of a temporal Sove-
reign we should be justly entitled to call on France at once
to cease that intervention, which in the case of a temporal
Sovereign would be absolutely indispensable, to withdraw
her troops and to leave Italy for the Italians and Rome for
the Romans. (Hear, hear.) But in the case of the Pope,
where the interests of religion are supposed to be at stake, he
must at all events be protected and maintained in such
sovereignty and in such state as he can enjoy under the
support and dominion of foreign Powers. Until some solu •
tion can be found for the difficult question raised by my
noble friend it is impossible, whatever may be the objec-
tions felt by Europe, whatever may be the objections felt by
France herself, whatever may be the sense of embarrass-
ment—and I have no doubt the Emperor himself labours
under a great sense of embarrassment—it is impossible, I
say, to urge France to withdraw that protection which she
at present affords, and it would be useless and worse than
useless—it would be idle and criminal—to urge the Emperor
to adopt measures which at the present we know he cannot
adopt. (Hear, hear.) Only look at what took place in the
Legislative Council the other day. Five deputies only, I
believe, supported the withdrawal of the French troops.
The whole body of public opinion in France is that the Pope
must be maintained in independence, and so long as he can
be maintained by no other Power it is the duty of the eldest
son of the Church, as the Emperor is termed, to maintain
the Pope in his authority. (Hear, hear.) 1 will not express
so strong an opinion as my noble friend behind me, or even
as my noble friend opposite, with regard to the absolute
necessity of Rome being the capital of the Italian Kingdom.
I confess I concur in the opinion, which is stated in papers
laid before your lordships as the original view of the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs, that, desiring the indepen-
dence of Italy, he thought it would be infinitely better
effected by the formation of two separate kingdoms. I
maintain that opinion now, and I believe that although it
sounds very well to speak of the unity oI Italy, the diffi-
culty
of accomplishing that object would have been infi-
nitely less, and the prospect of ultimate success infinitely
greater, if the mode adopted had been the formation of a
Northern and Southern kingdom—in which case the
Roman question would have been easy of solution, because
Rome would have laid between the two, and not been, as at
present, the centre of the United Kingdom. As there is
one Italian kingdom, I heartily hope and earnestly desire
that the union may not be a formal but a real and practical
union. At the same time, notwithstanding the moderation
displayed and the self-sacrifices made, I cannot but see the
greatest difficulties in the consolidation of this union. I
cannot look to the state of Naples at the present moment
with satisfacticn. Ido not believe that if the people of
Naples andlSicily had been left to themselves they would
have desired to be associated and subjugated. (Hear.) I
do not say they would have desired a continuance of their
then existing monarchy—but, if the former dynasty had
been well advised and had acted in time, that Government
might have been established on a satisfactory and sound
basis, and I believe the ',monarch might have continued in
amity and friendship with the constitutional monarch of
the North of Italy, not interfering with the exceptional
jurisdiction of the Pope in whatever remained of the Roman
territory. That, in my opinion, would have been a more
practical solution of the question, and would have avoided
many of the difficulties which must be encountered in the
present state of affairs.l (Hear.) Nothing can_be more
natural, if there is to be an united Italy, than that the
Italians should desire to have Rome for their capital.
There are a thousand considerations which lead to that.
But the very fact of that necessity enhances to an infinite
dezreo the difficulty of coming to any solution with
regard to the independence of the Pope, because, diminish
his territory as you will, if he is to be independent at all, he
must exercise absolute authority, and he must have uncoil-
trolled dominion over that territory ; he must have a provi-
sion made for him sufficient to maintain not only the dignity
and splendour, but the practical utility of his office. (Hear,
hear.) He may have the guarantee of the Catholic Powers
of Europe—and that is an arrangement which I should pre-
fer—but he must obviously within his own limits be uncon-
trolled master of his own movements, he must be able to act
without being subject even to the suspicion of being con-
trolled and overborne by any foreign Power. (Hear.) My
noble friend has brought the question of the temporal
power of the Pope to a reductio ad absurdum. He stated,
and et ,ted truly, that without the aid of a foreign Power no
Government can be maintained which is not in accordance
with public feeling and public opinion, and that no laws can
be maintained which are not in accordance with the spirit
of the times and the extension of popular rights, and then
he goes on to argue that such extension of popular rights is
inconsistent with temporal power t) the Pope. The reductio
is very obvious—that the maintenance of the temporal power
of the Pope as a sovereign—I mean reigning over anything
which may be dignified by the title of a territory—in the
present state of Europe, is morally impossible. But suppose
it to be morally possible, I can truly say that, if I were a
conscienfous Catholic as I am a conscientious Protestant,
I should feel the deepest pain and the deepest mortification
at the position in which the head of that Church at the
present moment finds himself. - If the maintenance of his
temporal power is essential to his spiritual authority, and
if he finds that the exercise of that temporal authority at
every point comes into opposition and collision with the
feelings and wishes and desires of his subject, I can con-
ceive no heavier blow which could be aimed at the spiritual
authority than that it should be supported by acts utterly
at variance with the feelings of the people. (Hear,
hear.) If I were a devoted servant of the See of Rome,
I would say, " Bring the See of Rome into harmony
with the people of Italy and with the Catholic feelings
of the world ; away with the temporal sovereignty and the
temporal possessions, the cares of which and the respon-
sibilities of which necessarily, according to my noble
friend, bring the Papacy into daily conflict with the feel-
ings and wishes of the people; but let him maintain that in-
dependence which it is absolutely necessary the head of the
Church should possess, and let that be secured, in such a
manner as may seem best, separate from the temporal power
—by which I mean reigning as a sovereign over a certain
extent of territory." (Hear, hear.) The two might be easily
reconciled, and in that manner alone can I conceive it pos-
sible to devise an arrangement of this difficult question.
How it is to be arrived at Ido not pretend to say. It is a
difficulty with which, however much we may desire to see
it settled, we in this country have no means of dealing.
For the solution of it we must look to the feelings of the
Catholic powers of Europe generally, and to the growing
conviction which must force itself upon the mind of the
Sovereign Pontiff—if, indeed, he has a right sense of the
superior importance of the spiritual authority over the main-
tenance of the temporal rower. We can trust to nothing
except the conviction on the part of the Catholic Powers and

_ ...
the Papal See that such a solution is the only one by which
the spiritual authority can be reconciled with its temporal
independence. But I concur that the less this Protestant

country interferes, tho more it leaves it to the Catholic
Powers of Europe, and the more it abstains from interfer-

mace and intervention, while at the same time it does not
close its eyes to the importance of maintaining the real in-
dependence of the Sovereign Pontiff, the better is the pros-
pect of arriving at the solution which we all desire, however
difficult it may be of attainment. (Hear, hear.)
The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned.