The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-26 00:00:00

expenditure, fresh imposts, in order to redeem either a por-
tion of the national debt or ExChequer bondsior
(gear,
hear.) Did the right hon. gentleman the member
I would ask, take that course ?; He,
U
Irecollect, in
submitting his last Budget to the house, be. 1858, had to
to
4,000,000; but
pay
off his Exche-
querprovide for an expenditure of only
so
he nevertheless borrowed £2,ooo,oooHeus
of Commons to
House bonds, not wishing to ask the
make provision for their payment by adding to the current
taxation of the year. (Hear, hear.) That being so, I think
hon. gentlemen opposite are hardly pursuing a fair or con-
sistent source in throwing out vague allusions to the necessity
of taxing the country in order to make payments which
their leaders, when in office, deemed it expedient to post-
pew. I must also remark that the repeal of an excise duty
on an article of home manufacture always appeared to me to
be looked upon in the light of a really Conservative fiscal
reform— (Hear)—and I ani somewhat astonished to find
this innocent question of the repeal of the duty on paper
- resisted be than who sit upon the benches opposite w ith
a'! that heat and spirit which charge erise a party debate.
All the traditions of the Conservative party, so tar I S I can
see, ere opposed to the existence of excise duties. Their
cry has elways been, " Take off the excise duties on your
home manufacture I. Let your native industry develope
it >elf. If you must impose dut-es, levy them on foreign
eemmodities." (Hear, hear.) Now, however, the tables
seern to be quite turned, and notwithsthnding that I ord
Derby and the right hon. member for Buckinghamshire—
your leader:—have repeatedly aemitted the great evils con-
nected with excise duties, and t e injurious effectwhich in
the case of the I aper duty especially they have upon the
progress of manufacture, you still seek to retain it, regard-
less of the deliberately expressed opinion of this house.
Now, this, let me tell you, is not merely a cemmerci d ques-
tion.ufa
c.
It bears upon agriculture as well asiutup::
very enter man
turing industry. The products of
largely into the manufacture of paper. (Laughter.) Ex-
tend that manufacture, and you will be giving increased
value to a good deal of the refuse agricultural produce for
Which the British farmer now gets nothing, and which ho
frequently is obliged to destroy. This question of the repeal
of the paper duty is a rural question. It has reference to
the employment f labourers and the number of mills which
may exist 'throughout the country. (Laughter.) Are there,
I would ask, no mills in Buckinghamshire, in Hertfordshire.'
and in other counties which have been closed owing to the
operation of your Excise system ? And have not the land-
I
ords as a consequence, been in many instances deprived of
that rent which they would otherwise have received ? For
my own part, I believe I am not overstating the case whedl
say I look upon the repeal of the paper duty as a question
which affects the landed as much as the manufacturing
interest. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Inverness,
it is true, told us the remission of the tax could benefit
nobody but the proprietors of a few penny newspapers
and the publishers of cheap literature. Now, there is
no place in which, as a general rule, so math broad
and enlightened truth is uttered with respect to the neces-
sity of promoting the diffusion of knowledge as in this house,
' but in the present instance, when a proposal which is cal-
culated to effect that object is made, penny newspapers and
cheap literature are spoken of as if they were things too in-
significant to be seriously regarded. (Hear, hear.) I am,
however, in a special degree surprised that the hon. mem-
ber for Inverness should, in speaking on this subject,
express himself in the terms to which I have just adverted.
He seems to be of opinion that it is not worth while to remit
a tax which stands in the way of the diffusion of cheap
literatut e ; but these were not always his sentiments, as is
proved by the fact that I had the honour of receiving his
support when I moved the following resolution :—" That,
whereas all taxes which directly impede the diffusion of
knowledge are highly injurious to the public interests, and
are a most impolitic source of revenue, this house is of
opinion that such financial arrangements ought to be made
as would enable Parliament to repeal the excise duty on
paper." (Hear, hear.) Now, lam sorry to have to quote
a resolution which I myself had the honour of proposing ;
but hon. gentlemen opposite so completely astonish me by
the cbange of opinion which many of them seem to have
undergone on this subject that I could not refrain from
skewing the house the nature of the sentiments which they
not long ago professed to entertain. In moving my reso-
lution I took my stand almost exclusively upon the ground
that the repeal of the paper duty would confer a benefit
upon the literature, and, above all, upon the cheap liter-
ature of the country, and I was supported by the vote of
the hon. member for Inverness. (Hear, hear.) Yet, that
hon. gentleman now rises in his place and says he will not
vote for the repeal of the paper duty because the only per-
sons such a measure could benefit would be the proprietors
of penny newspapers and the publishers of cheap literature.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAILLIE said he had stated that if there were a
bona-fide surplus he would have no objection to see the
paper duty repealed, but that the question stood upon a
different footing when there was no surplus whatever.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON continued.—Well, as the hon. gentleman's
views in the matter hinge upon the circumstance of there
being a surplus or not, I am led to hope that, if a division
should be taken on the relative claims of paper and tea to a
remission of duty, I may calculate upon his vote in favour
of the former. (Hear, hear.) I now come to my hon. friend
the member for Norfolk, who said that we omitted alto-
gether from our calculations the interests of the particular
class with which he is more immediately connected, and I
may tell him that I think his leader, the member for Bucks,
gave expression to a sound doctrine when be stated that
nothing was so dangerous as to make every question of the
remission of taxation a question between town and country,
ad.] lug that it was giving an unfair complexion to the general
objects of the Conservative party to suppose that they were actuated by no other desire than to repeal those taxes I
which pressed on the interests which they represented.
I think the right hon. gentleman gave good advice, and I
am willing to admit that in the main this house does favour
these measures of finance which are, on the whole, bene-
ficial to the country. At all events, I shall not be a party
to charging the other side, though they charge us, with
being actuated with narrow and selfish views, seeing that I
have recently received from the other side great support in
the repeal of the tax on paper. (Cheers.) With regard to
the Chinese indemnity, I believe that nothing can be said
which ought to shake the opinion of this house in the pro-
w
es which the Government upon their responsibility have
. (Hear, hear.) It would be expressing a total want
nfidence in the diplomatists who have advised the Go-
vernment. With regard to the charge for China, my belief
is that my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
has made ample provision for all that he can be called upon
to pay in all human probability during the present financial
year. (Hear, hear.) -It is a very bad principle to make
Kospective budgets. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
It is difficult enough to estimate what is going to happen in
the year in which we are legislating, and to go further would
increase the difficulty. It is contrary to all our usages and
contrary to the practice of Parliament to do more than pro-
vide for the charges of the financial year. Eachyear stands
separate from the others, and if you take another year
you must bring into account not only those remissions, but
the probable diminution of calls on the Exchequer,
whether frOne a reduction in expenditure or from and other
cause. I decline to enter into the consideration of prospec-
tive budgets—(hear, hear)—but Ido say that it is wrong
to argue that the repeal of an excise duty entails a perma-
nanent less to the full amount which the duty yields to the
Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) All experience shows that the
contrary is the fact. In no case when you have repealed an
excise duty on a manufacture have you in the following
year lost the full amount of the tax. It is obvious that it
cannot be so, because, if you allow a manufacture to extend
itself to its natural dimensions, it must bring into employ-
ment a great deal of labour, it must circulate capital in the
trade, it must increase commerce, and thus it must recoup
a part of the revenue which would otherwise appear to be
lost by the repeal of the tax. Under all these considerations,
and with no practical amendment before the house, I do ask
hen. members to allow us to go into committee, and to pro-
teed with these resolutions. They have been well consi-
dered, The scheme must be taken as a whole—embracing,
no doubt, imposition and remission—but, viewing it as a
whole, I believe that it is a proper and adequate mode for
providing for the financial necessities of the year, and for
giving remission in that direction where it will be most
beneficial to the interests of the country. (Loud cheers.)
Mr. E. BALL said that when the right hon. gentleman
introduced his budget he, in common with the whole coun-

try, felt surprised at the announcement made of the eats-

tence of a surplus. That announcement, however, was illu-
sory, and the statement was therefore utterly without foun-
dation, as he believed had been clearly pointed out by the
hon. member for Horsham. It had always happened that a
bad harvest always operated unfavourably on the Customs
and Excise of the country, and the last year was not an ex-
cqtion, and when the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer stated that the shipping interest was in a
prosperous condition he forgot to mention that the impor-
tation of foreign corn was a main element in producing that
effect. He contended that, if a remission of duty took place,
it ought not to be on that of paper. The Excise duty paid
by y manufacturers in this country was lid. per pound, while
the foreigner paid 21d., and why that advantage P To
TiraiGrtect the British manufacturer from an undue and un-
competition ; the more especially when France im-
Na'''ti
a duty of CO per cent, on rags exported into this
niitt" Y•
The hon, member for Abingdon said the other
o
favour t the manufacturers of paper were generally in
t,
could sa t
enassion of the tax; but all he (Mr. Ball)
y \v„,,
iL‘t hhat he had various interviews with those
gentlemen ;
t
meats in. the visited some of the largest establish-
.to him. VYrn ; and such was net the feeling ex-
lr-cssed one eis,,,,it't,..ll.!ver heard any one of them, or indeed
gentleman haY.ll4reedvetnission of this tax. It the right
hen.
toc,k amther penny eff tZee'eclin the tax on tea and sugar, or
a greater benefit tileeeme tax, it would have con-
leered
than the tax taken offpaper,fmniddle and working classes
advantage whatever. Then again hwthich they will derive no
ught to know fhat a more tmjant ta:llghthon. gentleman
could not be imposed
than the malt tot, which presßed heavily 0
and yet he never thought of remitting it, thou agriculturists,
oug,h such a r
duction would have materially- increased the °h
tio
and considerably acid to the revenue. Ile plight havm_P made n
such a reduction as would promote the nittwactz_ota
genuine article, and, as he said, a greater column, .41".
ption.than
now existed. In the face of these facts there was that scan -
tialeua prohibition by which they were dOarre‘,l

use of a commodity employed by them in fattening Cattle.
If this country had consented to a small duty on foreign
corn, the country might have made millions of revenue
withont the consumer paying it. It would have come out of
the pocket of the foreign producer. Were that the case they
would have no difficulty or hesitation in repealing the paper
duty, and if the country party had been more unanimous
and resolved they might have commanded the attention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of representing,
as they now did, the class the most trampled upon in the
whole community. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. MARSH said the only question which the house
had apparently to decide was, whether the paper duty
should be repealed, or a duty of 3d. a pound taken off tea.
Tea had a reputation far making people nervous and scurri-
lous, and he thought that too much of it was drunk. Now,
he had entered into a calculation to compare the actual
money benefit which well-to-do mechanics would derive
from the reduction of the tea duty, compared with what he
would derive from the reduction of the paper duty; and as
those calculations were based upon a supposition of sd. in
the pound duty on tea, they would applyasfortiorito 3. T
to the
question under consideration in the ratio of
rsult he had come to, recognising what he was pleased
to observe to be a habit of the working classes, particularly
in the north of England, to indulge in literature whilst at
their meals, was, that they would be infinitely more bene •
fitted by the repeal of the paper duty than by the reduction
of the tea duty. A grocer, in a comparatively humble way
of business, told him the repeal of the paper duty would
save him £5O a year, though of course that would only be
the case ultimately. If that duty were taken off, paper would
be immediately applied to a variety of purposes for N% hich it
had not hitherto been used. In Japan it had long been ap-
plied in an infinitude of different ways. The paper duty in
fact was the last duty remaining of a series of financial im-
positions, the removal of which had been attended with the
most excellent results to the community. Thus in Mr. Hus-
kisson's time the duty was taken off leather, and although
many complained, as some still did, that it did not make
their shoes any cheaper, the leather trade had increased
beyond measure, and the price of boots had sunk. , He re-
membered when a ploughman gave 16s. for a strong pair of
shoes, whereas he could now get a better pair of boots for
10s. At Northampton and Norwich the manufacture was
largely carried on, and our export trade in boots and shoes
was very considerable. The repeal of the duty on printed
calicoes was another great boon. Pope put "charming
chintz" and " Brussels lace" together in the same line as
articles accessible to the highest aristocracy only. The re-
peal of this duty had not only extended the use of the
former article throughout all classes of the community, but
was now known even to savages. The next duty repealed
was the duty on soap, and if it had not reduced its price so
much it was because the price of tallow had advanced from
355. to 555. 6d. Then there was the duty on bricks, which
had been repealed. The price of bricks varied very much,
and it hal not only been lowered by the repeal of the duty,
but any one could have a brick of any pattern he chose to
order, whereas formerly only the "Parliament brick" could
be had. It was said that the duty on bricks did not hamper
the trade ; but the mere fact of a licence having to be taken
out was proof that it did hamper the trade. The duty on
glass had also been repealed, and it had enabled this coun-
try to rival with success the beautiful manufacture of
painted glass, which was formerly carried on only in
Bohemia. He was convinced that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was progressing in the path of financial reform,
and for that he had his most entire approbation.
Mr. FARRER said he did not wish to be understood as
desiring to throw an impediment in the way of the Govern-
ment in the observations he was about to make. He thought
it was the duty of the right hon. gentleman to retain the
paper duty at present, seeing that its abolition could only
benefit, in a very partial manner, a limited class of the com-
munity, and to reduce the war taxes on' tea and sugar, a
course by which he would really confer a most acceptable
boon on the poorer and working classes of this country.
,(Hear.) He thought the country was placed in a most
difficult position. The right hon. gentleman said he was
giving the country something; but he had really not offered
the country anything worth accepting. (Hear.) The right
hon. gentleman took off the income tax of 10d., and he then
proposed to-reimpose the tax at 9d., and affected to make a
great virtue of making the ratepayers a present of a penny.
If he (Mr. Ferrer) were to represent to his constituents that
the right hon. gentleman was conferring a great benefit on
the country in remitting one penny of the income tax, would
they say, " Oh, that will be a great benefit to us." Nothing
of the kind ; but if he said there will be a great reduction of
duty on the articles of tea and sugar, and on other objec-
tionable war taxes, they would appreciate the statement.
(Hear.) Whatever the hon. member (Mr. Marsh) might
say in disparagement of tea affecting the nerves of the people
he (Mr. Farrer) should far prefer giving his vote in favour
of reducing the duty on that article to giving it in favour
of the repeal of the paper duty. The right hon. gentleman,
in dealing with the taxation of the country, reminded him
of a " hybrid highwayman," who, after having robbed a
man of all his apparel, and stripping him quite naked,
affected to be moved by his appeal that he felt very cold,
and to be very generous he gave him back his great coat.
(Laughter.) He hoped the right hon. gentleman and the
Government with whom he acted would take back their
budget and give to the country a reduction of taxation in
matters that would be really beneficial. (Hear.)
Mr. BEACH said the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had made a great display about an
imaginary surplus ; but how was it made out ? Why, by
taking from the Excise balances a sum of X 1,450,000. The
real fact was, that instead of a surplus there was a large
deficiency. Much had been said by the right hon. gentle-
man about the French commercial treaty which he had en-
tered into, and of the great advantages he expected from it ;
but where was the reciprocity ? With regard to the repeal
of the paper duty, the public, in his opinion, would derive
no benefit from it; and to effect it, the right hon. gentle-
man proposed to impose an increase in the duty upon other
articles, a reduction in which would really be accepted as a
benefit to the country. There were many other articles of
Excise upon which the right hon. gentleman might have
far better remitted the duty than that of paper, and among
them he might mention hops, the reduction of the duty on
which would prove a great benefit, not only to those en-
gaged in agriculture, but to the entire community, (Hear.)
Mr. DUTTON said the country had passed through a
year of great depression, in which the shipping interest
suffered, perhaps, more than any other. Looking, however,
at the whole question of taxation, and at the circumstances
in which the country was no iv placed, he thought the right
hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was act-
ing well in proposing the repeal of the paper duty, and that
the house could not do bettor than pass his Budget as a
whole. (Hear, hear.) If, however, there was any tax which
he should prefer to see repealed to the paper duty, it was
the malt tax—a tax the repeal of which would really confer
a great boon on society.
Lord INGESTRE thought the right hon. gentleman
would have dons far better had he proposed to effect a large
reduction in the income tax than in proposing to repeal the
paper duty. He should have been more pleased had the
right hon. gentleman proposed to reduce the war duties on
tea and sugar. He could not avoid remarking that when-
ever there was a chance or likelihood of obtaining any good
for the working-classes and the labouring poor, the hon.
member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright), who talked so much
out of doors of the manner in which they were oppressed,
and other hon. gentlemen who sat below the gangway and
acted with him, were never in their places. He believed that
if the house negatived the paper duty and got rid of the
right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade
and of the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, they would remove from the government much of
the Democratic element, and make it so far Conservative as
to render it unnecessary for those with whom he had the
honour of acting, to seek to get possession of, and sit upon
the Ministerial benches. (Laughter.)
Mr. PEASE would not travel through the mass of
figures which had been quoted by hon. members in criti-
cising the financial statement of the right hon. gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but this he believed,
that the Budget laid before the house by the right hon.
gentleman was in all respects sound, honest, and true.
Knowledge was power, and therefore the paper duty
should be remitted, in order to enable the working classes
to acquire knowledge. Some thought the remission of duty
should take place on tea, but was China, in • her present
disturbed condition, able to yield such a supply of tea as
would give the working classes the advantages of such a
remission ? The working classes themselves preferred a
remission of the paper duty to a reduction of the tea and
sugar duties. A working man told him a few days ago
that they preferred temperance and knowledge to "slop."
He (Mr. Pease) would support the proposition to remit the
duty on paper.
Mr. HORSFALL believed it an act of common honesty
to remove first those taxer that had been laid on to meet
the extraordinary exigencies of the country. (Hear, hear.)
So long as taxes were required they should be raised both

directly and indirectly, but he thought they should Le

derived from sources less objectionable and inquisitorial.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. VANSITTART said the duty on paper was easily
collected, and improved in value every year, and it was a
reckless proceeding to remit it, while the war duties on tea

and sugar remained undiminished. Ho would give his

cordial adhesion to the sound practical sentiments uttered

by the hon. member for Huntingdon on Monday last.'
Mr. LESLIE thought the remission of the paper duty
would be a great relief to the industrious classes cf the

country at large. Ho hoped the house would not only

approve of the remission of the paper duty but of the whole
Budget, which he thought highly creditable to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.
Major HAMILTON wished to narrate a story commu-
nicated to him recently on gocd authority, to show the
feeling of the people of Scotland with regard to the paper
duties. The hon. member for Edinburgh had been lately
addressing his constituents, and having been listened to
with much admiration, he asked them if there was any-
thing more than what he had promised they required from
him. Receiving no answer, he asked " would they not
like him to present a petition for Reform." They said—
" No, we want no reform:" (Laughter.) The hon. mem-
ber then said, " Wijl you not ask me to present a petition
in favour of the remission of the paper duties." They said,
"No, if you want a petition to present to the House of
Commons let it be against marrying your wife's sister—
Oaughter)—and if you, do not try to tike the duty otr te4

and sugar, you need never come down here and wag your
head again." (Laughter.)
Mr. BLACK—The hon, member has been in a dream
all this time.
Major HAMILTON said he had the story on good
authority; it might, however, be as great a chimera as
some parts of the Budget. (Hear.) It was quite true, how-
ever, that the Scotch people, from the Tweed to John
o'Groat's, were for a reduction of the duties on tea and
sugar, and no candidate could present himself in Scotland
with a more popular cry. He had been a supporter of her
Majesty's Government on all constitutional questions, but,
in consequence of the speech of the Secretary of the Board
of Trade that evening, they might not reckon on his sup-
port in future. He would conclude with four lines from an
Irish poet, who in speaking of the fallen angels said
And I forgot my home, my birth ;
Profaned my spirit ; sunk my brow;
• I revelled in gross joys of earth,
And I became what I am now."

Next year the Chancellor of the Exchequer might probably
sing the same tune. (Laughter.)
Mr. CAIRD said that some time ago he had alluded to
the deficiency of the harvest, and the fact was that this de-
ficiency pressed more severely on the farmer than on the
consumer, and owing to this the country did not suffer so
much as might be expected. They were now importing
large quantities of corn into this country, and for the next
four months the public would not be great sufferers as re-
garded the price of bread ; and although he feared there
would be a deficiency in the harvest of this year, still he did
not anticipate any severe pressure on the public in conse-
quence. In Ireland, although there was a deficiency in re-
spect to the growth of corn in that country, still there was
a good supply of oats, and this supply counterbalanced the
loss on the other article of produce. In Scotland there had
been a good harvest, and thus the defect in the harvest in
part of the kingdom was met by the production in other
parts. There was one other point to which he wished to
allude. The Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to the
subject of spirits, and admitted the probable amount which
he would receive from that source of revenue. But he be-
lieved the right hon. gentleman's calculation fell short of
the real result, for he believed there would to a large in-
crease in the growth of barley, and he (Mr. Caird) deduced
from this that the right hon. gentleman would reap a much
larger return from spirits than he expected. With respect
to the abolition of the duty on paper, he looked upon it that
this abolition would be beneficial amongst other things to
the agricultural interests; inasmuch as it was very likely
that straw would be largely used in the manufacture of
paper. Upon the whole, he had great pleasure in giving
his cordial support to the Budget of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
Major PARKER said it was admitted that the agricul-
tural interest suffered severely last year by reason of the
bad seasons—and if the manufacturers of this country had
suffered in respect to the production of any article of ma-
nufacture, they would claim the protection of the law in
aid of their manufacture. This being so, he thought that
sympathy ought to be shown to the farming interest. But
he might be told that the duty upon paper ought to be
taken off with the view of extending knowledge amongst
the people of this country—which was not political and
general knowledge—brought home to the doors of the
people of this country by means of the cheap press. This
being so, he did not see the necessity of reducing the duty
on paper. He thought that the way to serve the farmer and
benefit the agricultural labourer, and serve the country,
would be to take off the duty on malt.
Mr. MOFFATT said the great question which they had
to consider was this, had-the Chancellor of the Exchequer
a surplus?—which he doubted very much, (Hear.) The
public had learned not to place full confidence in financial
statements, and that of last year in particular might be re-
ferred to in justification of the doubts entertained by him
and others of the estimates now brought forward. The
statement of last year contained many predictions which,
unfortunately, had not been fulfilled. It was stated, for ex-
ample, that there was to be an increased duty on chicory,
which, with the duty on coffee, would make a revenue of
£90,000. He found, however, that the duty from coffee was
£14,000, and from chicory £7,500, making together, say
£22,000, against the prophesied £90,000 of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, being a decrease of 75 per cent. upon his
estimate. (Laughter.) He might refer also to the penny
taxation, which was to touch every operation and movement
of commerce, and to yield £300,000, but which had proved
on the contrary as vexatious and obstructive as it had been
unremunerative. The right hon. gentleman's estimated in-
come from the first source of this nature was the penny
charge on parcels, £lOO,OOO ; but the actual revenue yielded
from the units of entry did not exceed £12,000, being a de-
crease of 83 per cent. (Laughter.) The stamps on contracts
were to yield £lOO,OOO. Now, he could not get at the
exact figures so accurately as he wished, but they had the
admission of the right hon. gentleman himself that the
revenue from this source formed but a small proportion
of the estimated revenue, it being only £7,000, instead of
£lOO,OOO. (Renewed laughter.) As regarded the revenue
to be derived from inland bonding charges, there was also
a complete failure. The right hon. gentleman told them
that there had arisen an overwhelming necessity for in-
creased bonding accommodation, and that it was found im-
possible any longer to defer granting it to the trade of the
provinces. To meet the necessary expenses it was stated
tbat an increased tax must be imposed, and accordingly a
charge of one quarter per cent. was put upon every transac-
tion in the Custom-house. Of those there were a million
during the past year, so that a million calculations had to
be made en constantly varying sums. But had the country
had the extra bonding accommodation which it had thus
paid for ? Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, and other towns
were to have bonding stores, but hitherto only one of them
had been opened, and that was at Bradford, for which the
trade of the country had paid £50,000 in that most vexa-
tious and obstructive manner. Instead of £120,000 which
it was expected to yield, it had produced only £60,000, or
,50 per cent. less. (Cheers and laughter.) He thought,
therefore, looking at the complete falsification of the right
hon. gentleman's calculations last year, that there was rea-
sonable ground for the house withholding its confidence
from those which he now set before them until facts had
been communication that placed them in a more reliable
form. He regretted to see that the national debt was being
increased at a formidable rate, and if they made a false step
at this critical moment, it would be extremely difficult, if
possible, to regain their present position. (Hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that there would be a
surplus of £1,900,000, of which he attributed £300,000 to an
increase in customs, and £300,000 to an increase in the land
revenue. They were told that this was the calculation, not
of the right hon. gentleman, but of the officers of the Ex-
chequer. He submitted, however, that as guardians of the
public purse they were bound to have something better
than the authority of those officers before they shut their
eyes to the cloudy and disastrous prospects that lay before
them. If they had a bad harvest the right hon. gentleman •
would certainly get no increase ; if they had an average 1
one he would lose £360,000 in the duty on corn. There
was also a considerable item with respect to which he con-
fessed he could not agree to the accuracy of the right hon.
gentleman's figures—he meant the customs duty on paper.
The right hon. gentleman said that the customs duty on
paper which he should have to relinquish as a corollary to
his repeal of the excise duty would be about £15,000.
Mr. GLADSTONE—For this year.

Mr. MOFFATT—For this year. Now that he (Mr.
Moffatt) thought was a very low estimate ; for his at.
tention had been directed to a return moved for by Lord
Camperdown in another place, from which he fowl that
the increase in the customs duty on paper had latterly been
very large indeed. In 1858 it was £9,000 ; in 1860 it had
grown to £27,000. (Hear, hear, from the Chancellor of the
Exchequer.) It further appeared that in the first quarter
of the present year up to March 31, the amount of duty
received was £14,057. (Hear, hear.) If that was correct,
it was at the rate of £56,000 a year.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (with
some vehemence)—Hear, hear.
Mr. MOFFATT—WeII, if he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) did hot know the difference between £15,000 and
£56,000 (Loud cheers.) The right hon. gentleman stated
that the loss would be £15,000; and he had shown that the
duty was coining in at the rate of £s6,ooo—yet the right
hon. gentleman cheered him derisively. He confessed he
could not see why. (Hear.) This item, with the loss of the
corn duty, it the harvest was an average one, would make
about £lOO,OOO. Then the right hon. gentleman put the
increase of the income- tax at £280,000 ; but considering
what an unfortunate year the last was, he should rather
conclude that there would be a decrease. (Hear, hear )

There was another item which really required explanation.
The right bon. gentleman said that he did not intend to
give up more than half the year's paper duty; but every
commercial man would know that from the moment the re-
peal of the tax was announced it would give itself up. The
right hon. gentleman said he meant to keep the duty on till
the Ist of October ; but there was not a paper manufacturer
in the country who would do more than make up that which

lie had in pulp at the passing of the act. The loss therefore
would be not £650,000, but the whole £1,200,000. (Loud
cheers.) That certainly was a very large sum to lose, un-
less, indeed, the right hon. gentleman had some nostrum in

store to prevent the catastrophe. (A laugh.) Lastly, there
was the sum that it was alleged we should receive from
China. Ho (the hon. member) had listened with great at-
tention to all that fell from the right hon. gentleman (Mr.
M. Gibson) in answer to the hon. gentleman the member
for Horsham (Mr. S. FitzgerAld), but he confessed that he
could make nothing out of it that was at all satisfactory.
The case was this. By the treaty the Chinese had bound

themselves to pay us 4600,000 sterling, of which £300,000
had already been paid, leaving Z 2,300,000, which was to be
paid in quarterly instalments, out of one-fifth of the cus-
toms revenues of China. The President of the Board of

Trade (Ur. Gibson) had expressed his surprise at the figures
quoted by the hon. member, but they were merely the ordi-

nary consular returns, which were open to everybody. From
these it appeared that the customs duties for 1859 had been

£1,300,000, with the exception of the tax on opium,-which
might be £400,00/ or £500,000 more. In fact the total cus
toms duties of China could not be more than £1,700,000, of
which one-fith would be £350,000. We had already receive]

£320,000, less some considerable redactions, at Canton, FO

that the whole sum that would be due to us in the year

commencing Jan. 1 would not be more than £660,000. But

this was not all. Of the 8,000,000 taels that we were to re-
cCiVe, 4 1444 explicitly stated in the treaty that 2,000,000

should be paid to the merohants at Canton, and "the re-
mainder"--for that was the word in the treaty-eveas to be
applied by her Majesty's Government towards defrayir g
the cost of the expedition. Now the 2,000,000 taels would
be £650,000, and therefore if they did justice and right to
the Canton merchants there would be nothing due to the
Exchequer. He would not believe that any honest man
would dispute the right of the merchants. Why, some of
their property had actually been taken by our forces, forthe
purpose of their offensive operations ; and they had already
been kept five years out of the recompense which was due to
them. He could not think that her Majesty's Government
would descend to chaffer and haggle with the merchants of
Canton. (Cheers.) He would now make a summary of his
objections to the surplus. At present it stood at £1,900,000.
Very grave doubt existed as to £300,000 of the customs;
and as to the estimated increase of inland revenue,
£300,000 of it had not been explained to the house. Then
of the £750,000 China money, he asserted that they could
not, consistently with justice, receive £lOO,OOO, and
£600,000 of paper duty they could not possibly obtain. It
resulted, therefore, that £1,300,000 of his surplus they would
certainly not get, and the remaining £600,000 was some-
what contingent. (Cheers.) He should have been much
more pleased to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer;
but they were there to take care of the public finances rather
than of any special individual. He would not go into the
comparative merits of a reduction of the duty on tea or of
an abolition of that on paper. He would only quote the
words of the right hon. gentleman when he said, " Talk of
tea being the rich man's luxury—it is the poor man's, and
above all it is the poor woman's luxury." (Cheers.) There
might be some reason why the right hon. gentleman had
since changed his views ; but he need not discuss that ques-
tion. His conviction was that there was no surplus to dis-
pose of, and he had abundantly shown that there was no
case for remitting any tax at the present moment at all.
(Cheers.)
Mr. WHITESIDE observed that the right hon. gentle-
man the President of the Board of Trade seemed to think
that sufficient to the year was the evil thereof; but it ap-
peared to him important to look to the future when they
were getting rid of permanent revenue, unless indeed they
wished to be in the position which the present Government
delighted always to be in—that of leaving a deficit. He
should like to know what was the object which those who
framed the present budget had had in view. Was it eco-
nomy or the removal of public burdens, or was it not rather
the sole purpose of getting rid of the paper duties? (Hear,
hear.) As a private gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had no doubt done perfectly right, considering the
pledges he had given, the speeches he had made, and the
intimacies he had formed. (A laugh.) But he would only
deal with him in his ministerial capacity, and he must say
that a great part of the right honourable gentleman's
speech was made up of a censure upon his colleagues, the
House of Commons, and himself. (A laugh.) They might
look on this budget in a financial point of view, in a con-
stitutional point of view, in a political point of view, and
in a ministerial point of view. With regard to a political
budget it might be regarded as a "gigantic innovation."
(" Hear," and a laugh.) In a political point of view it
might be said that the Government were trying to do that
which they could not do constitutionally. He admitted
that the right lion. gentleman with the boldness of a genius
went in search of a surplus, and he went, strange to say,
for that purpose to China. (" Hear," and a laugh.) He
(hit. Whiteside) would never depart from the opinion he
had previously expressed on the Chinese war—that it was
a flagitious war—(hear, hear)—and he should always think
a most unwise and unjustifiable war—which the right hon.
gentleman himself at one time condemned, though he had
been obliged to find the means. of carrying it on. (Hear.)
He (Mr. Whiteside) hiving listened to the statements of
the right hon. gentleman, was only astonished that men of
business and men of sense should give up so productive a
source of revenue as tie paper duty, which was increasing
in value from year to year, on the chances of receiving this
money from China, of vhich, for anything they knew, not
a single guinea would ever reach this country. (Hear.)
Last year the right hon. gentleman calculated an increase
in the spirit duties, but which he had failed to realise, and
he was wrong by a sun of £OOO,OOO in his calculations.
(Hear.) Then, jest as the summer was setting in with its
usual severity—(a laugi)—the right hon. gentleman came
down with a supplementary budget, and ho made a speech
on Ireland, which had undoubtedly alarmed him (Mr.
Whiteside). The right hon. gentleman certainly spoke
truly as to the increasing prosperity of Ireland ; he also ex-
plained what he would to with the spirit duty, and the dis-
tinctions which existed eetween tea and sugar, and spirits.
As regarded these two former articles, he was desirous
to increase their consumption ; but as regarded spirits,
he wished to proceed in an inverse ratio. The right hon.
gentleman also prophesied that the duty on spirits
would produce an enlarged permanent revenue from year to
year, and that that source of revenue was to produce
£2,250,000 per year. lut prudence come to the aid of the
right hon. gentleman, rho said that prudence necessarily
compelled him to make an allowance for diminished con-
sumption of spirits, and therefore he would assume that the
augmentation] of the revenue from that source would be
only £1,000,000 for the whole year; and upon that calcula-
tion the receipts from that source from that period to the
end of the financial year would be £600,000, but on Decem-
er 31 the right hon. gentler an found that the income from
that ;source was £200,000 less than he calculate 1 upon.
(Hear, hear.) In wines the right hon. gentleman was sue •
cessful, but in spirits he was not. The right hon. gentle-
man said that when the right hon. gentleman the member
for Bucks was Chancellor of the Exchequer he had, with
the consent of the trade, equalised the duty on spirits in the
three kingdoms. lie (Mr. Whiteside) had heard per-
sons in the trade speak of that equalisation as having
been a benefit. The u ight hon. gentleman having pro-
phesied a success, and met with a failure last year, now
told the house that they might hope for success next e ear.
The Irish distillers did not complain of that equalisation of
the spirit duties in the three kingdoms, but they did com-
plain that the Government should go on in these annual
i. terferences, which had proved all but ruinous to the
trade. 'I hey submittel that last year's experiment had
been a failure, and that one of the results was that illicit
distillation was rapidly me the increase. The large sums
which great capitalists vere obliged to expend in the erec-
tion of great buildings was another source of complaint, and
they saw tho increase o! duty led to a loss of upwards of
£500,000 or £600,000. je (Mr. Whiteside) had received
communications f om three of the largest distillers in Dub-
lin. The first was el r. 800, who said it would be impossible
to conduct business unites the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer returned to the eqvalised duty from which ho had de-
parted. Another very edinent firm—the Messrs. Jamieson
—wrote to the same offeci, as did Sir J. Power, who pledged
himself to the truth of these facts ; therefore the house
could not rely on the statements which had been made by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Then came the question
—would the house like to continue the income tax at the
rate proposed, and the duties on tea and sugar, i n order
that they might obtain the reduction of the duty on paper ?
(Hear, from the Opposition:) The right hon. gentleman
(Mr. M. Gibson) had given, as a reason for that repeal, the
fact that the house, he said, had
pledged itself to a solution
on the subject. Yes, bre at that time the house must re-
collect that the income tax was only sd. in the [pound.
There was nothing therefore in the argument that because
the house had pledged itself to an abstract resolution year's
ago they would now repeal the paper duty. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) 'tit still there was the question,
had the Chancellor of the Exchequer such a surplus as
would warrant him in repealing the paper duty ? (Hear.)
He (Mr. Whiteside) doubted it. He had heard the right
hon. gentleman in mans speeches in that house endeavour
tax was an immoral tax,
atondd demonstrate that
ttihtawt
was
sea
away
artax.
(Hear.) He (Mr. White-
side contended that it they repealed a tax at all it should not
repel of the corn laws, but he
income tax. The paper duty
ebxeisthteedpaatptehredutitmy,ebuoit.
tt)Le:
had not heard of any one Proposing that the duty on paper
should be repealed in preference. (Hear, hear.) If any
one offered a hungry man a loaf in one hand and a penny
newspaper in the other, le (Mr. Whiteside) was afraid the
poor man would be so blind to the intellectual advantages
of the latter that he world refuse the paper and take the
loaf. (A laugh.) The Ci.luee'L:ur of the Exchequer wanted
to make people sober by rsising the duty on spirits—(hear)
but he wondered that the fertile mind of that right hon.
gentleman did not see that that might be accomplished
by lowering the duties on tea and sugar which the popu-
lation indulged in. ehe advantage to the public of the
repeal of the paper duty would be only one halfpenny on a
2s. book. (Hear.) And then coming down to a sixpenny
book, which the poorer classes would be more likely to
purchase, there would be no advantage to the poor man at
all; and it might easily be- assumed that the poor man
would rather hare the duty taken off tea than off the paper
in which it was wrapped up. (Hear.) As he understood the
Chancellor of the Exchequer the case was this, that he in-
tended to include all his resolutions in one bill, whereas there
was a separate bill in last year's budget for the paper duties.
This measure had been fairly considered in a separate bill
last year, and sent up to the other house, and fortunately
for the Chancellor of the exchequer, who had a deficiency,
it was rejected. (Hear.) They might contend that accord-
ing to old usage such a thing might be done, but with all
due deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that did
not answer the constitutional question. Although they
might find old precedents to justify the course they had
adopted, yet practice was the best exponent of the principles
of the constitution, and modern practice, and their own
practice last year, proved tiat their present attempt ought
not to be countenanced. ?here were two great authorities
on the subject. One of then (Mr. Hallam) who had written
what was called an honest book on the constitution, gave it
as his decided opinion in rta analogous case that the justice
and sense of the matter were with the House of Lords. And

Lord ➢Macaulay, who had ]eft them a posthumous legacy in
his last volume on the " astory of England," discusses the
same question. The Hour) of Commoss determined to pass
a bill to restore the forfeited estate of be house of Ormond,
and in order to deprive tilt other houseof Parliament from
making any alteration in the bill, they acked it on to a bill

which imposed a 2s. lam tax; and Lord Macaulay said
_ _

that the ruling demagogues of the Rotse of Commons in-

sisted that the measure relating to the Duke of Ormond
should be tacked on to the Bill of Supply, lie said there
was conference after conference between the two houses,

but the House of Comnons was determined, and effected
twit purpose, The ;aistoritua quoted Ow apeeelz of 9129 of

the speakers on that occasion, who said if the Lords ob-
jected to their tacking such a bill asthat to a bill of supply,
let them take care that they did not tack to a future
bill a bill of attainder, and Lord Macaulay said that
was worthy of the worst days of the French revolution. He
(Mr. Whiteside) submitted to the better judgment of those
who heard him, that it would be a more constitutional, a
more manly, more direct, and more usual course to propose
the bill that they passed before ; and if it-were recommended
by the deliberate opinion of the House of Commons, he was
satisfied that it would be met with respect in the other house.
Nothing but an overwhelming sense of duty would have
caused the House of Lords to do what they did last year,
and in doing it he believed they were upheld by the voice
of the nation. The right hon. gentleman at the close of his
able speech made what struck him at the time as a most
extraordinary statement from one in his position. He said
that if there were one danger more than another which
threatened the country it was their recent unbounded ex-
cess in expenditure, and that when they perceived the rate
that they had been advancing at for a number of years they
would see that there had been a tendency to break down all
barriers ; that in that they saw the beginning of an evil
which threatened the existence of the nation. Why did
not the right hon. gentleman, instead of attacking the
House of Commons, tittack his colleagues ? But his col-
leagues knew that the expenditure was necessary. The
Prime Minister the other night at the Mansion-house made
a characteristic general speech, in which he said there was
material for half a dozen wars in the present state of Eu-
rope. He believed the noble lord was right. The noble
lord took larger views of policy, and when he gave that
opinion on the position of foreign affairs, how absurd it
was of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to speak of extra-
vagance. The hon. member for Montrose pointed to the
example of the United States, but he did not tell them
where those states were. Their Government was cheap be-
cause it was bad, and ours was dear because it was good. He
thought that the more this question of the budget was in-
vestigated the more the truth of the censure pronounced
upon it by the hon. member for Huntingdon would be dis-
covered—namely, that it was not an honest budget. (Oh.)
He thought that it was the right word in the right place,
He trusted it would be acted upon by the house, and he was
well convinced that if it were that action would be approved
of by the country.
Mr. H4LIBURTON said the right hon. gentleman the
President of the Board of Trade announced that there were
inconsistencies in the members on that (the opposition) side
of the house. He dared say there were. He never saw a
body of men yet who throughout their whole lives did not
see some occasion to change their opinions; but when the
right hon. gentleman made that charge, every member of
the administration, from the head of the Government to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, knowing that they had them-
selves been guilty of so many inconsistencies, looked as if
they could protect themselves from their enemies, but
prayed God to help them from their friends. He listened
with great attention to the exposition of the financial state-
ment, and at the conclusion of that elaborate and very delu-
sive speech the right hon. gentleman indulged in self-con-
gratulation of no ordinary nature, and, in fact, such a nature
as it had never before been his good fortune to hear. If it
had not been that the subject was so grave, it would have
been a matter of great amusement. Drawing himself up,
he heard in the distance the approaching thunder of the
great crash which was to overwhelm us, from false pro-
phecies, from groundless prognostications, and a variety of
other amplifications of the kind of which the right hon. gen-
tleman's vocabulary was so full. He (Mr. Haliburton) liked
to see a person who had performed what he considered a
great feat satisfied with what he had performed, but there
was a limit even to a man's boasting on that subject. Now
these prognostications, these prophecies, and all these
other spectres, were raised by the right hon. gentle-
man's own imagination, for no one else ever heard of
them, and they were raised that he might show the skill
of the magician in laying them. The right hon, gentle-
man flattered himself that this was the very budget that
was necessary—that, so far from the public being sur-
prised at it, the public had expected it. It was known
that there was a deficit, but by the skilful handling of the
right hon. gentleman that deficit became a surplus. It was
well known that the debt incurred by the Chinese war was
so great that it had not yet been counted, but that accruing
debt was thrown into deep shadow in the distance, while
the stipulated sum the Chinese were to pay was brought
into the broad light of the foreground. All this was well
known, and it was well known that there would be an at-
tempt to use this figurative surplus for a political purpose ;
and as the right hon. gentleman appeared to be a man who
neither forgot nor forgave, he resolved to put himself square
with the other house of Parliament for the rejection of the
paper duty last year. This was well known, and that the
budget would be lauded. It was well known that the itine-
rant politician and platform orator and demagogue who had
sown seeds of sedition broadcast, and who strove to set the
labourers against their employers, and the lower classes of
the people against the upper, would approve of the budget,
because they saw in it the means of bringing out in strong
relief that which they had in view, the disunion between
the two branches of the Legislature. (Hear.) It was well
known also that it would be praised and extolled to the
skies by that mendacious and audacious and wicked body
of men who in the most unblushing way dared to affirm in
this house, and on public occasions elsewhere, that the
army was not supported for the defence of the nation, or
for the maintenance of its position on the face of Europe,
or for the protection of our commerce or our colonies, but
for the mean and base and despicable purpose of supporting
the younger branches of the aristocracy—(hear, hear)—
and that those branches were to be supported by the
taxes arising from the hard earnings of the poor.
(Hear, hear.) To those and such like people that was an
object of great gratulation. (Laughter.) It was a difficult
thing for an honest man—(laughter)--to draw comfort from
the dissemination of falsehood and slander. (Hear, hear.)
But he was glad that they had been uttered, and that they
had been disseminated, because this very budget and pro-
tended surplus had been shown to the house to be hollow
and unfounded. Whatever might be the vain-glorious
boastings and assumptions of others, the Conservatives were
the real Liberals of England. Let the people come forward
and assist them in seeking relief from the pressure which
fell upon the lower classes. In a country like this, of such
extended commerce, and of such a high state of civilisation,
there must be in the most prosperous times a high rate of
taxation to provide for the interest of the national debt and
for the army and navy, which must be kept up in a state of
efficiency equal to any emergency. It was the duty of both
sides of the house to apportion the burdens of the people, and
that had been done, so that it fell equally upon all who could
bear them—(hear)—and notwithstanding the temptations
which had been held out, and the falsehoods which had
been uttered by wicked men, they were borne with unflinch-
ing firmness and without a murmur. Now, therefore, was
the time at vfhieh the sincerity of the people would be
test Id, and could any man for a moment suppose that the
duties upon tea and sugar and paper were upon the same
footing? (Hear, hear.) Could any man say they had the
same bearings upon all classes of society ? To say that the
tax upon paper was a tax upon knowledge was the veriest
cant he had ever heard. (Hear, hear.) If there was one
thing more detestable than another it was cant, whether
political or religious, and nothing was more destructive in
its consequences. (Hear.) Last year a great deal was said
about America—a country which had neither the incubus
of a monarch, nor a House of Lords, nor an Established
Church—a country laid out like a checkered board, beauti-
ful to look at. (Laughter.) All that amazed and astonished
him, because of the ignorance which was exhibited. It was
surprising that sensible men could fall into such delusion.
(Hear.) But they heard no more of these things now, nor
was it likely they would again. Nothing but cant had been
the cause of the disunion of the United States of America.
He spoke it boldly, that it was the result of political
cant. (Cries of " Question.") As the subject appeared
distasteful he would pass on to another. The

Chancellor of the Exchequer thought proper, in

his self-glorification on Monday night, to allude in

disrespectful and scornful terms to a petition which he had
presented from the colonies of North America, on the equali-

cation of the timber duties, and he took great exception to
the insolence of the language of the right hon. gentleman.
(Order, order.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
rose to complain of the language of the hon. member, not

on personal grounds, but because it had reference to the

dignity of the house.
The SPEAKER said the expressions of the hon. raem
ber were not parliamentary. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)

Mr. lIALIBURTON said he bowed 0 the decision of
the chair; he withdrew the words which he had pronounced

and he regretted that he had used them. (Hear, and cheers,

If be had spoken warmly, he felt deeply. (Hear.) The

petition which he presented-(Question.) This was part

of the question which was under discussion, viz., a reduc.
tion of duties for which credit had been taken, and he sub•

mitted that he was within the limits of the discussion. The

petitioners prayed that on a certain class of timber—boards,

battens, and deals—the duty might not be taken off withou

some notice ; but it was decided against them, and they

submitted, and there was an end of the matter. But he was
very much astonished to hear it again alluded to by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in the language to which

he had taken exception. Their request was not unreason.

able ; but if it were, was that peculiar ? Had no unreason-
able requeEt3 come from Ireland, Scotland, and other parts
of the empire ? (Divide.) When the right hon. gentleman
said he had heard predictions of ruin from the North Ame-

rican colonies he had been grossly deceived. Ruin I It was

not in the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by
whatever 1 •gislation he introcl aced, nor in the power of Par-
liament, to ruin that country. It was too young, vigorous,

and enterprising, and too full of resources to be ruined by
anything except the hand of God or its own folly. The
right hon. gentleman could never have heard those predic-
tions ; and es to the " doleful wail" across the Atlantic, why
that was not language to be applied to a respectful petition
from those colonies, which, now that a disruption had taken

place in the United States, would take the lead among the

nations on the American continent. From 1620, when the
Puritans first landed on its shores, to the present day, no

such thing as a doleful wail had been heard coming from
that country. The right hon. gentleman's nerves really

seemed to be strung on the principle of an Zolian harp,

every breeze against the chords of which produced doleful
and melancholy music. He should advise the righthon.

geriticizatz ueyor to cross the AtWale, or he W9uld-Awl that,

his harp would very soon be rendered mute. He would re-
commend him rather to go to Coventry. (Laughter.) There
he would hear a doleful tale. (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.)
There he would find a population who a year ago were in-
dustrious, thriving, happy, and contented, now reduced to a
state of beggary and destitution in consequence of his French
treaty. (Oh, oh.) There he would see pallid cheeks and
attenuated frames, broken looms, and broken hearts, that
would make the stout man shudder and the good man weep,
(Laughter, and hear, hear.) There, indeed, he would hear
a doleful wail. Or, if he would not go there, let him go to
Oxford. (A. laugh.) He would there see his own consti-
tuents wandering stout those shady groves of Arcadia
like the remnants of a past age, occupying themselves with
the hobbies of a past age, and teaching the dialects of the
dead to living men. (Laughter.) He would hear moans
about a tacit contract between him and them having been
broken. Whoever had the high honour of representing
that great, learned, and venerable institution should be a
staunch supporter of the instiutiona of Church and State,
and not a man who gave a cold and reluctant vote, or a
silent and sneering support, in their interest—
Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer,
And, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer.
(Laughter and cries of "Divide I") What had they got to
divide upon ? (Ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
They would divide in good time, and perhaps hon. members
opposite would be surprised at the result. (Cheers.) He
had now done with that subject. (Divide.) . He entered
his protest against such a reception as his fellow country-
men on the other aide of the Atlantic had received from the
right hon. gentleman. They did not deserve it at his hands.
(Hear, hear.) They were a loyal people. They had given
a reception to the heir apparent of this empire in the last
season such as no member of the House of Hanover had
ever experienced since that family had sat on the throne of
England. (Hear.) They venerated our institutions, and
were fond of British connection. He thought that every
member of that house would agree with him when he said
that the independence and manliness of that people, and
their loyalty and attachment to this country, entitled them
to our respect ; and their lineage, language, and consan-
guinity to us entitled them at all events to our best atten-
tion. (Cheers.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said one of the inconveniences of an
adjourned debate—especially one on which no definite issue
was raised—(cheers)—was, that they were puzzled to dis-
cover not only what they were debating but what they were
going to divide upon. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman
who had just resumed his seat—to use his own expression,
"a remnant of a past age"—(a laugh)—had discussed
nearly every subject except the issue before the house. He
was a gentleman famed for his great literary abilities, and
for his works of fiction, which were universally read ; but
after Le exhibition he had made that night, he (Mr. Os-
borne) would advise him to undertake a new edition of
" The Rambler." (Laughter, and oh, oh.) The principal
part of his speech had been devoted to the loyalty of the
colonies and the warm reception they had given to the
Prince of Wales, facts with which he supposed the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was not sufficiently acquainted.
But was the house going to divide upon that subject ?
(Hear, hear.) The honourable gentleman was one of
those who prognosticated a very large deficit, and he now
seemed disappointed at finding, instead of a deficit, a sur-
plus. (Oh, oh.) Surely the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had better means of ascertaining the truth than the hon.
gentleman who had passed so much of his time on the
other side of the Atlantic. Now, what was that sur-
plus F (Hear, hear. Hon. gentlemen opposite had two
great assistants in their sanguine gloom—the Chinese war
and 'he bad harvest—but in spite of these afflictions there
was a surplus. The Chancellor of the Exchequer with the
revenue for 18f 1-62 at £71,823,0,10, and the expenditure at
£69,900,000, had a surplus of £1,923,000. The hon. member
for Horsham had ably questioned the Chinese indemnity,
but the President of the Board of Trade had entirely and
satisfactorily disposed of that matter in the answer wl ich
he gave. (Hear, hear.) Now the question which the house
was bound to ask itself was, with that surplus, and in the
present state of the country and Europe, ought any taxes
to be remitted at all ? He took it that no Chancellor of the
Exchequer with such a surplus could avoid remitting some
taxation, and he believed there would be a general agree-
ment in the house that the income-tax was the first that
ought to be dealt with. (Hear, hear.) The income-tax was
originally taken—he would not say on false pretences, be-
cause that was a hard word—for a period of only three years,
but it had lasted until now. I t pressed with peculiar severity
on clerks and people of small incomes between £4OO and
£5OO a-year, and it was the general wish of the house and
the country that it should be the first tax to be materially
reduced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had very wisely
thrown them a penny. It was a small sum, but still it was
something, and it showed that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was inclined to reduce the tax if he were permitted to
do so. (Hear, hear.) The next question was what other tax
ought to be remitted. They could not suppose that all re-
missions would be upon direct taxation. Something must
necessarily be done with the indirect taxes. The budget
must be considered in two aspects—its fiscal and its political
light. Taking a fiscal view of the question he would much
rather have seen, supposing nothing else had happened, a
reduction of the tea and sugar duties. (Cheers.) But he
could not consider it in that light alone. They must take a
constitutional view of the matter. They must cons der in
what position the paper duty question had got by the con-
duct of this house, and by the vote in another place.
It was not that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was
pledged to the repeal of that duty, but that the House of
C. mmon was pledged to it. (Hear, hear.) How often the
question had come before them. (Hear, hear.) This ought
to be a lesson to the house not to have any more abstract
resolutions. The most dangerous things ever done were
done by abstr :ct resolutions. He himself never voted for
the abstract resolution on the paper duties, but the house
having passed it was in his opinion pledged to their repeal.
When the present President of the Bo trd of Trade proposed
this resolution in 1858, it was generally asserted to, and
opposed by the only Teal consistent member in the house.
No charge for inconsistency could therefore be brought
against the hon. member for Not folk (Mr. Bentinck), who
was a fine specimen of fossil remains. (Laughter.) The Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade moved an amen went on going
into committee of supply to the effect that the maintenance
of an excise duty on paper as a permanent source of revenne
was impolitic, and that such financial arrangements should
be made as would enab e Parliament to remove that tax. The
right hon. member for Bucks, who was then Chancellor of
the Exchequer, did not oppose that motion : he said, "Leave
out all the words after impolitic and I 11 assent to it."
(Hear, hear.) He laid it down, in fact, in 1858, that the tax
was not to be permanent, (Hear, hear.) But he did more.
He said, having previously voted for the repeal, " I can take
this opportunity of stating that I look upon this tax as one of
thost which, when a favourable oprortunity arrives—(hear,
hear, from the Opposition)—yes, when a favourable oppor-
rtuigniaitty
haon.
rrive'—he(Mr. Osborne) apprehended that the
gentleman meant when there was a surplus.
Of course the hon. gentlemen denied that there was a sur-
plus; if they did not they would have no case. Their mis-
fortune was that they had no case, and were, therefore,
obliged to make rambling speeches about America and
every other conceivable topic. The right hon. gentleman
went on to say. " I should be glad to see this tax erased
from our fiscal system." Mark I " Looking at it in a
moral, political, and educational point of view, I shall be
glad to propose its total abolition." (Cheers.) There could
be no doubt then that the two great men of the Conserva-
tive party—whom they had stolen from the Liberals, the
right hon. member for Bucks, who had made his party
what they were, whom they could not do without—(cheers)

and the right hon. member for Hertfordshire, the brain;

and heart of their party, had both put their stigma on this
tax, and both had voted for its remission. (Cheers.) What

then was the position in which the house found itself at
the present moment. They had another Chancellor of the
Exchequer equal to the two gentlemen he had mentioned
in every respect, and he proposed the remission of the duty.
He (Mr. Osborne) had not been breast high for the abstract
_ _ _

resolution, but the house affirmed it; the house subse-
quently reduced the duty, and every one knew what sub-
_ __

sequently happened in the House of Lords.

Did hon.

members opposite mean to say that it was not a great
calamity to have the two branches of the legislature at issue

on a question of excise ? (Hear, hear.) He thought it was
a great calamity, and he for one was willing that the first

opportunity should be taken when they had a surplus.
(Opposition cheers.) Gentlemen opposite were great
sticklers for constitution and authority; and was it they
who wished to keep the two houses in a state of discord ?

But they were the remnants of a past age. (Loud cries of
" Oh, oh," from the opposition.) He could tell the hon.

and gallant member for Limerick, who had only just joined
the party, that the words were not his; it was the hon. and
learned member for Launceston who had called gentlemen
around him the remnants of a past age. These were his

reasons for giving his support to the repeal of the paper

duty. They had got into such a position with reference to
the House of Lords that he felt grateful to the Chancellor

of the Exchequer for having taken the first opportunity for
settling the question. What had been tho course pursued

on this occasion by the Opposition ? Ho must confess
himself to be surprised and puzzled by the tactics of the
other side. He had listened with respect to the hon. mem-
ber for Huntingdon, and had heard him say that the budget
was neither sane nor moral, nor even honest to the country.
(Opposition cheers.) If gentlemen opposite thought so, why
not come forward and meet the budget boldly by a negative ?
Did they think to do as they had done in the case of the
Reform Bill of last year, and talk it out. (Hear, hear.)
Why had not the hon. member for Huntingdon moved a
direct negative ? But no.

" he back recoiled, he knew not why,
Frightened at the sound himself had made."
The hon. member had Sneered at the budget, had ques.-
tioned the existence of a surplus; but he made no motion.
Then there was the hen. and enthusiastic member for Cam-
bridgeshire. To him he (Mr. Osborne) might say, in the
words of Collins—

ti With woeful accents, wan despair—
Low, sullen sounds his grief beguiled,
A solemn strain and mingled air;
'Twas sad by starts, by fits 'twas will."
(Laughter.) But that description answered for the whole
of the opposition. If they said the budget was neither
moral, political, nor honest, they should come forward aid
vote want of confidence in the Government. Were they
prepand ty cl 9 that? (Hear, hear.) The right/144i mere•

ber for Bucks had, the other evening, said he had not made
up his mind ; and as for the hon. member for Huntingdon,
who could discover his meaning ? They said the budget of
ministers was unsafe, dishonest, and immoral, and yet they
were not prepared to turn them .out. He (Mr. Osborne)
hoped they would not take back their budget ; he hoped the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would act with his usual firm-
ness, and that the Right Hon. President of the Board of
Trade would persist in dividing the house, even if it carnet°
a vote of want of confidence. The right hon. member for the
University of Dublin had addressed some words to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer which were wellworthyof considera-
tion. He (Mr. Osborne) quite agreed with the right hon.
gentleman. It was not sufficient that the Chancelloroftheßx
chequer should come down to the house and read it lectures - -
on its extravagance. To do so was an anomalous proceeding--
to remit two millions of taxation when they had agreed to bor-
row 11 millions for fortifications. He should not have been •
contented to read lectures, he should have proposed redne-
tions. If the right hon. member did so he would not only
be supported by a numerous party in that house, hut he
would have with him all the right-thinking people in the
country. Having stated his intention of voting with the Go"
vernment, he must say, in conclusion, that no Government
would be justified in future in bringing forward any budge
which did not contemplate wise and economical measures of
financial reform and a judicious reduction of expenditure.
Major EDWARDS contradicted the statements of the.
President of the Board of Trade as to the prosperity of the
manufacturing districts. In Bradford, Huddersfield, Leedel
and Halifax the mills were working two-thirds time, and
the merchants did not know what to make, so glutted were
the markets of the world. It was the same story from India,
America, and China. If they were to reduce the taxation Of
the country they naturally looked to the gentleman who had
given solemn pledges that the first tax to be repealed was
the income tax, and no man ever dreamt of any other tax
being repealed until, at all events, that tax was materially
reduced. The paper manufacturers did not care about the
repeal of the paper duty ;it was only the penny A-liners and
proprietors of cheap newspapers who wished for the repeal
of that duty. Could any one believe they had in that house
such a party on the Treasury bench that they could rely
upon on " all occasions ? He denied there was any unani"
mity on the Treasury bench. If report spoke truly it was
only on Monday week, and late in the day, that the terms,
of the budget were settled. If he were in the position of
his honourable friend the member for Birmingham he
should consider himself one of the proudest men on the
face of the earth, and he shOuld fancy—nay, he should
more than fancy—that he was Prime Minister of *his coun-
try. (Cheers and laughter.) It was patent to the whole
country that, through the nominees of his hon. friend in
the Government, he had been able to effect what the Prime
Minister could not have done without him. (Loud Oppo-
position cheers.) It was well known that only a small
section of the present Government were in favour of taking
off the duty on paper ; but they came to the question, " Was
the. Government to depend on it or not ?" Then the ques-
tion followed, " Shall the majority succumb to the minority,
or shall we go out ?" (Opposition cheers and laughter.)
He, therefore, contended the hon. member for Birmingham
had carried his point, and done more than any Prime
Minister could have done without him. (Hear, hear.) He
had listened to many excellent speeches during the course
of this debate, and he came to the conclusion that instead
of a surplus we had a deficiency of two millions and a half•
Under such circumstances he felt they could not go fairly
before the country and say they were in a position to reduce
taxation. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MAGUIRE said he would argue this question 0.0
having no reference to party, for it was not a party ques-
tion. (Hear, hear.) He intended to apply himself solelY
to the question of the abolition of the paper duties,
and here he must observe that it was well known to the
gentlemen from Ireland that he was connected with the
Press of Ireland. It was well known that, as far as he
was concerned, it would be his interest to have things in
connection with the paper duties remain as they were. The
question then before them was this—could they at that time
reduce the paper duty ? He would here remark that he
had not heard throughout the debate one word from any
one on the morality or desirability of continuing the paper
duties. It was true that the hon. gentieman who last ad-
dressed the house had spoken of the cheap press—whom be
designated as penny-a-liners—as being advocates of the
reduction of the paper duties. He had not troubled himself
to inquire whether there would be a surplus, because he
was bound to assume that There would be, since the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had said so on his official responsi-
bility. Though the hon. member for Huntingdon had
criticised the right hon. gentleman's figures, he did not
think their general accuracy had been materially shaken.
He now wished the house to consider the state of the paper
trade, which, though it had been described as one of the
most insignificant, was really one of the most important,
and it was now in jeopardy, as he should show. It was
not the fault of the Government that the tax was not re-
pealed last year; and yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
after having stated that the manufacture was in a weak
and crippled condition, had given a decided advantage to
the foreign over the home producer. The question, how-
ever, was, whether they ought to redeem pledges given by
them as the most important branch of the constitution.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the state of the paper manu-
facture, ho could tell the house, on the authority of a mem-
ber of a firm in Ireland, which was in the habit of sending
six tons of paper every week to London for the use of the
cheap press, that from the Ist of September last it had not
sent a single sheet there. Putting a value of £56 a ton on
that paper there was a loss to that firm alone of £lB,OOO
per annum, from which they could judge how the duty
affected the working rural population. English firms also
had lost from 20 to 25 per cent, of their incomes, and one
very painful feature of the case was that there were now in
London certain papers which were printed on Belgian
paper. The cheap press which had sprung up within the
last two or three years, now numbered 100 different papers
throughout the country, consuming, on an average circus
lation of 6,000 copies each, 120 reams a day, the total value
of which was £936,000. That was an interest so large and
so important, that he did not suppose any hon. gentleman
would treat it with disdain. He should vote for the budget,
in the hope that the paper duty would be repealed.
On the motion of Mr. HORSMAN,
The debate was adjourned to Monday.
The Copyright (Works of Art) Bill was read a third time
and passed, and the Railway Company's Mortgage Transfer
(Scotland) Bill went through committee.
STREET RAILS.
Mr. BRADY moved for a select committee to inquire
into the propriety of establishing a mode of public con-
veyance by means of iron rails in streets and highways.
Sir J. SHELLEY opposed the motion.
Mr. WHALLEY supported the motion. He was ac-
quainted with all the circumstances connected with the
street rails at Birkenhead, and never heard the slightest
complaint or disapproval of the undertaking. He believed
it was a great success.
Mr. COWPER recommended the hon, gentleman to
bring in a bill on the subject. A commit tee would occasion
delay, and could not be practically of any use,' as no addi-
tional information could be obtained on the subject.
Mr. LIDDELL expressed himself hostile to those tram-
ways, as being unsafe to the public.
After some conversation,
Lord PALMERSTON said it was very desirable to have
tramways laid down, such as they had at Milan, without
any monopoly, in the streets of London, but he did not
think a committee appointed to devise a bill on the subject
would at all assist them.
The house then divided, and the numbers were.—
For the motion
Against it
40
Majority
The other business on the paper having been disposed
of, the house adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock.

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BIRTHS.
BUTLER.—On the 25th inst., at 1, Queen's gate, Hy:le-
park, the Hon. Mrs. Clifford Butler. of a daughter.
MANNE.—On the 231 inst., at Hampton, the wife of Major
T. Mayne, a son.
PAitBURY.—On the 25th inst., at Roupell-park, the wife
of G. W. Parbury, Esq., of a son.
MARRIAGES.

BATCHELOR—JONES.—On the 25t1: inst., at St. John's,
Paddington, Albert W. Batchelor, Esq., of 29, Con-
naught-terras e, Hyde-park, to Emma, second daughter
of Wm. J. Jones,.Esq., M.R.C.S., of Lincoln's-ian.
ECCLES—Cuirris.—On the 25th inst., at St. Peter'o:
Pimlico, William H. Eccles, Esq., Rifle Brigade, of
Davenham, Cheshire, to Emma Cornelia, the youngest
daughter of Charles B. Curtis, E.q., of Eaton-square.