The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-17 00:00:00

IMPERIA PARLIAMENT.

_
HOUSE OF LORDS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack

at afro o'clock.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
rho following bills were read a third time and passed :
Lynn and Hunstanton Railway, Waveney Vallpy Railway,
Railway, Cockermouth, Keswick, and Penrith
Ramsey
Railway, South Eastern Railway (Folkestone Harbour),
Ware, Hadhara, and Buntingford Railway, Bishop Stort-
ford, Dunmow, and Braintree Railway, Salisbury and
Dorset Junction Railway, Mersey Docks and Harbour
Board, Hatfield Chase Warping and Improvement,
St. George's Harbour, Aberystwith and Welsh Coast Rail-
way, and Kirkcudbright Railway Bills.
PUBLIC WORKS IRELAND (ADVANCE AND
REPAYMENT OF LOANS) BILL. •
Earl ST. GERMANS moved the second reading of this
bill.

After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE, the bill was

read a second time

THE EAST INDIA COUNCIL, &c., BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to ask her
fajesty's Government to lay upon the table of the house
opies of all reports, minutes, or other records of opinions of
he members of the Legislative Council of India or of the
ommittees of that council relating to the bills concerning
ndia now before the house. He did not ask for these do-

uments with any intention of obstructing the passing of
ie bill, but merely that all information on the subject
'could be in their lordships' possession. In his opinion ic
143 very important that the opinions of the members of
le Legislative Council should be known, especially as they
id been freely referred to in the other house of Parliament.
:e did not think that the public service would
lifer by the production of the documents he asked
and was therefore very anxious they should be
reduced. He considered the bill a very admirable
ae, the only clause he was disposed to object to was that
dating to the council of the Governor-General of India.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON thought the noble lord
boured under the same misapprehension both as regards
Le existence of the papers asked for, the functions of the
idian Council, and the method of conducting business
. that department. The Indian Council was
vided for the convenience of business into com-
ittees, and the reports of those committees stood in
cactly the same position of the minutes of the head or subor.
nate officers of another department. These reports were in
) way records of the individual opinions of the members of
e Indian Council, and he could assure the noble lord that
eir production would not be for the benefit of the public
rvice. With respect to the expression of opinion in con-
xsation amongst themselves of the members of the
ulian Council no record was kept ; and as far as the
lls now before Parliament were concerned, he could as-
tre the noble marquis there were no records in the India
Efice of any objection by the Council, and with respect to the
inor points there had been no expression of disapproval
hatever.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH regretted that such a
Lode of proceeding was adopted in the Council of India.
Their lordships then went into committee on the bill.
Clauses from 1 up to 6 were agreed to, with some verbal
mendments.
On clause 6,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH suggested an amend-
tent by which provincial councils could be held by an order
f the Governor-General in council, instead of by a law or
egulation of the council, and the clause, as amended, was

greed to.
Clause 7 was agreed to after a short discussion:
On clause 8,

The Earl of ELLENB °ROUGH objected to it as a most
dangerous innovation on the system of administration
Hitherto pursued in India ; the Governor-General had here-
tofore been solely responsible for the Government, but by
this clause it was proposed to give the Government to diffe-
rent departments, and to throw upon the members of the
council that direct responsibility. The Governor-General
by this bill deprived himself of one of the most important of
his duties, that of controlling and directing military opera-
tions. Under this clause the military members of the coun-
cil remained in the council, and they had the power of ob-
structing the Governor-General in military matters. It
appeared that Lord Canning intended coming home next
spring, so that he would not be long in India after this act
would come into operation, and his successor might be much
embarrassed by the operation of this clause,
Earl DE GREY and RIPON defended the clause,which
bad been inserted on the recommendation of the present
Governor-General.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH stated his own experi-

ence when he filled the office of Governor-General, and from
that experience he felt warranted in objecting, as he did, to
the provisions of this clause. The noble earl then referred
to the evidence given by Mountstewart Elphinstone before
the select committee as justifying his opposition to the

- -
clause.
The Duke of ARGYLL submitted that the evidence
alluded to referred to a subject quite different to that they
were now discussing. The cbject of this clause was to give
the Governor-General power to make provision from time
to time to divide the business among the members of the

Earl GREY thought it was an innovation and a dan-
gerous practice to pass a specific act to give the powers pro-
vided for in this clause. He thought the clause was un-
necessary, and, being unnecessary, he was of opinion it
would be better to omit it.
Lord HARDINGE opposed the clause.
Earl DE GREY and RIPON said the Governor-Gene-
ral had not power legally to do that which this clause em-
powered him to do.
Earl GREY repeated his objections to the clause.
The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 9.
On clause 10 being proposed,
Earl GREY said he was opposed to this clause, which,
ho thought, would have a most dangerous effect in India.
He intended to submit an amendment which, he thought,
would be an improvement, and which, he hoped, Govern-
ment would submit to. The bill, as it stood, would not
meet the evils which it was intended and designed to
correct. The danger of the Governor-General clashing
with his Legislative Council could only be got rid of in one
way, namely, that the course to be taken by the council it-
self should be first considered by the Government at home.
The Government in this country was conducted differently
from that of India. Here members of the Cabinet may and
do differ upon certain points and a certain policy, without
any evil resulting therefrom, but the case of India was en-
tirely different. Men who were likely to compose this Legis-
lative Council had devoted their whole lives in that country
to what was considered there a profession, and having risen
to the very highest offices by their own talents and exer-
tions, it could not be expected of them to resign their offices
on account of any political differences they may entertain in
opposition to the Governor-General. He was persuaded that
in difficult times, and as regarded questions of great public
importance, it would be perfectly impossible for the Gover-
nor-General to enforce the penalty of dismissal upon those
give him their support.
who
The lEarllto of ELLENBOROUGH reminded his noble
friend that the clause, did not give the Governor-General
the power to dismiss them
Earl GREY continued ,—lf that be so the difficulty was
almost insurmountable. In th
present state of society in
India it was impossible to get erepresentative.th legislation, and
power must therefore rest entirely with the Governor-Gene •
ral and the Executive Council, but in exercising that autho-
rity they must be responsible to the
was also of the
Government at home
and to the Parliament of this country.
It
measure greatest public importance that upon every theyet
proposed the public opinion of India should be atin
known, and with that view he ventured to propose an amend-
ment which was similar to one brought forward a few years
ago by his noble friend near him (Lord Ellenborough); and
again, when the present bill was proposed to be read a second
time. He should move the omission of part of the clause
now before their lordships, so as to leave all authority in le-
gislation to the Governor-General and Legislative Council,
but to create another body, which should be called a Council
of State,composed of the most distinguished persons in India,
natives as well as European, who, by their talents and posi-
tion, would be entitled to act as a consultative body. He also
proposed that the Governor-General should prepare drafts
of his legislative measures to be laid before and considered
by this body, before they were finally decided on by him
and his council, in order that their opinions be taken and
fairly expressed. In this manner the proposed laws might

be fairly discussed and their merits completely sifted, before
they finally passed. Under the existing arrangements there
was no way of ascertaining the opinions of distinguished na-
tives ; but by his plan the subjects brought forward for
legislation could be made known and discussed in large
towns—such as Delhi, Lucknow, and other places—so as to
ascertain as nearly as possible the feelings of those for whom
they were intended. his present proposal was by no means
a new one, fora similar Council of State existed is France
during the reign of the first Napoleon, and most certainly
the laws passed by that body redeemed in some measure the
horrors of the bloody wars to which it was for so many years
exposed. Under the system now proposed there was greater
danger of bringing the future Government of India to dead-
lock; but by confining the functions of the Council of State
to a mere consultative body, to report public opinion to the
Governor-General and his Executive Council, every danger
would be avoided. Ile proposen that all the words after
Governor-General and Council be left out, and to add "a
Council of State to assist in the preparation and regulation
of all measures to be proposed, the Governor-General hay.
in g power to appoint and remove its members, subject, how-
ever, to the approbation of the Secretary of State in Council
in this country?,
Earl DE GREY and RIPON said the object of her Ma-
je ,ty's Government was to make as few changes as possible
in the existing law—to follow, as far as could be, the course
of the previous legislation in Parliament, and only to make
those which experience had shown them to be absolutely
nccssary. The noble earl adopted another course ;he
proposed to establish for the first time a body
entirely of
a novel character, and for which no Precedent could be
found. Under these circumstances he could not agree to
thaamendnient proposed by the noble earl. There was
nothing in the present bill calculated to extend or continue
the evils that had been found to grow out of the existing