The Sun.
London, England, 1859-08-03 00:00:00

4PERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY).

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

In answer to a question from Lord DONOTIGHMORE,
Earl GRANVILLE said that the Government, giving
way to the suggestion of the Earl of Derby, had decided on
introducing a continuance Roman Catholic Charities Bill on
Thursday nest.

THE BUILDERS' STRIKE.
Lord BROUGHAM called the attention of their
lordships to the strike which was expected to take
place in the building trade, and which was creating
much excitement throughout the metropolis. He was of
opinion that the demand of ten hours' pay for nine hours'
work was most absurd, and asked if the Government in-
tended to take any steps in the matter? For many years
he had been the advocate of the working classes, and
he was at opinion they had a right to strike
if they pleased ; but when, as in the instance
that had occurred at Sheffield, they had proceeded
to violence, such conduct could not be allowed. The noble
lord then referred to the court in France, which had been
highly successful in arranging the differences between the
employer and the employed.
Earl GRANVILLE said the attention of the Govern-
ment had been drawn to the subject, and they had
taken the necessary steps to maintain order during the con-
tinuance of that lamentable strike. He was pleased to see
the subject had been referred to in that house by the noble
and learned lord, who was so well able to deal with the sub-
ject, and he thought it was very much better to throw a
light on the affair than hastily to proceed to legislate on
the subject. In the present instance he thought the strike
was most unjustifiable. The alleged reason for the pro-
ceeding was that there were a great many men
at present unemployed ; but such a proceeding on the part
of the men in employment would not afford them the means
of obtaining a single shilling extra. The result of the
strike, if carried out, could but be most injurious to the
working classes, and he trusted that sound judgmentwould
be allowed to prevail, and thus the misery always at-
tendant on strikes would be averted.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE said no legislative in-
terference on the part of the Government could prevent
occasional disturbances between employer and employed.
Nothing but experience on their own part of the loss and
suffering produced by strikes, and a more extended and
accurate knowledge of the purposes of political economy
would ever induce them to abstain from such as that now
witnessed.
Lord BROUGHAM referred to a pamphlet he had seen,
written by a working man, with a view of dissuading his
follow-workmen from a strike.

_ -
After a few observations from the LORD CHANCELLOR,
which were inaudible in the gallery, the subject dropped.
The Westminster New Bridge Bill was read a second
time.

The Dwellings for Labouring Classes (Ireland) Bill was
read a second time.

The Local Government Supplemental Bill was read a
second time.

The Colonial Legislatures'. Power of Repeal Bill was
read a second time. _ _

The Divorce Court Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Barbuda Government Bill was-read a second time.
The Railway Companies Arbitration Bill passed through
committee.
The Pawnbrokers' Bill passed through committee.
The Boundaries (Ireland) Bill passed through com-
mittee. •
The Marriages (Lisbon) Bill was read a second time.
COUNTY CESS (IRELAND).
Lord CLEMENTS moved that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty for a return of the amount of
undischarged queries after Summer Assizes, 1858, and
after Spring Assizes, 1859, in each county in Ireland ; the
balance in the county bank after Summer Assizes, 1858,
and after Spring Assizes, 1859, in each county in Ireland;
the balance m Exchequer-bills after Summer Assizes, 1858,
and after Spring Assizes, 1859, in each county in Ireland ;
and the amount of warrants issued after Summer Assizes,
1858, and after Spring Assizes, 1859, in each county in
Ireland.

Earl GRANVILLE said he was quite ready to agree to
the motion, on the understanding that the return was not
to be produced if it was found that the report was already
given in the report of the commission.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
ELECTION COMMITTEES.

The members to serve on the following committees were
nominated :—Kingston-upon-Hull, Bridgewater, and Pres-
ton.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the Charleston Railway and
Harbour Bill, and the Wansbeck Railway Bill, were con-
sidered and agreed to.
The Tacnmshire Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. CARDWELL, the following members
were nominated to serve on the select committee on the
Chester and Holyhead Railway at Holyhead Bill :—Mr.
Cardwell, Sir Richard Bulkeley, Mr. Cornwall Legh, Mr.
Wilbraham Egerton, and five members to be added by the
committee of selection; five to be the quorum ; committee
to meet to-mdiTow.

Mr. C. FORSTER moved that the standing order made
on the 6th day of April last, and standing orders 176, 203,
and 204 be dispensed with in respect to Dickinson's Divorce
(India) Bill.—Ordered. The bill was then read a second
time, and referred to the Select Committee on Divorce Bills,
with leave to sit and proceed on Thursday
On the motion of Mr. C. FORSTER, the following was
agreed to :—That, in the case of Sir John Ramsden's Es-
tate Bill, the examiner of petitions for private bills have
leave to sit and proceed forthworth.

INCOME TAX BILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS) LAW
AMENDMENT BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill,
On clause 1

Mr. HAWES moved the following addition : —Chief
constables appointed, or to be appointed, under the Acts of
the 2d and 3d years of her Majesty, cap. 88, and other Acts,
shall be styled " County Commissioners of Police."
After some discussion,
Mr. CLIVE said that he had received memorials from
Hampshire and other places, setting forth that the altera-
tion proposed by the hon. member was desirable.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the original clause was agreed to, as well as clause 2.
Clauses 3 and 4, with some verbal amendments, were
agreed -

-The clauses to 9, inclusive, were agreed to.
Some discussion ensued on clause 10, to which verbal
amendments were moved, but they were withdrawn, and
the clause was agreed to.
The remaining clauses were agreed to, and the bill

- Mr. GRIFFITH moved that the following be added to
clause 16 :—" The High Sheriff of any county may agree
with the Justices of the Peace for the same county for the
employment cf the police constables in lieu of the javelin
men at the assizes ; and thereupon the chief constable, on
the requisition of the High Sheriff, shall place under his
orders a sufficient number of such constables to keep order
in and within the precinct of the Court of Assize, and upon
such agreement being entered into as aforesaid, it shall be
lawful for the High Sheriff to discontinue the employment
of javelin men." The hon. member said the alteration he
proposed was in operation in Hampshirmind other coun-
ties, and was found to work advantageougly.
Mr. WYSE considered that the hon. member was pur-
suing a most irregular course in moving the addition to the
clause, as a promise had been given that, next session, a
select committee would be appointed to inquire into the
subject of the expenses of high- sheriffs.
Sir W. MILES opposed the addition, which he con-
sidered unnecessary.
After a few words from Mr. HENLEY and Sir G. C. Lewis,
The house divided, and the numbers were—
For the additional clause
.
Against

Majority 42
The clause was then added to the bill.
Mr. J. EWART moved the followinc, addition to
clause 18:—None of the provisions of° this clause
relating to a police superannuation fund, or contribution
thereto, or payments thereout, shall apply to any city,
county, ar borough in which a police superannuation fund
has at the time of the passing of this act been established
under the provisions of any local act now in force.
The motion was agreed to and the clause was added to
the bill.

Mr. HODGKINSON moved the following addition :
" And be, it enacted, that in every city or borough in Eng-
land in which there shall be a court house or other public
building belonging to any county, or to any riding, parts or
division of a county, it shall be lawful for her Majesty's
justices of the peace acting in and for such city or borough
to use such court house or public building for the purposes
of holding therein the petty sessions of such city or bo-
rough, or of transacting therein any business connected with
the admirlistration of justice in such city or borough with:
out any charge for rent, or other payment, save and except
the reasoable and necessary charges for lighting and clean-
ing such court-house or public building-, when the same is
used for the purposes aforesaid. Provided always, that the
necessary arrangements shall be made so that the use of
the said court-house or public building by the said justices
shall not interfere with the business of the county, or of the
riding, parts or division of the county,usuallytransacted there-
in, or with any purpose for which such court-house or public
building may be used by virtue of any local act in that
behalf : provided further, that in case any difference shall
arise between the said justices and the parties having the
cepntrol of any such court-house or public building, as to the
feharrr gets or arrangements aforesaid, the same shall be re-
ed to the Board of Trade, whose decision in the matter
shall be final.
After some discussgi •
The Chairman of Committees mittees decided that the motion
could not be put, and it was accordingly withdrawn
Sir J. TROLLOPE moved the:following clause, which,
after some discussion, wasthree
hraegreed to :—" Whereas the
county of Lincoln is undery,
xeest,selpearate commissions of
the peace, namel. Lindse
n, and. Holland, but
is for police superintendsnce under one chief constable, and
it is found inconvenient and unjust that the superannua-
tion fund should be separate ; be it enacted, that after the
passing of this Act that the said superannuation fund shall
be one common account so long as the police force for the
said county of Lincoln shall be under the direction of one
chief constable for the three divisions ; but if the said force
shall hereafter be separated under different chief constables,
in that case it shall be lawful to divide the said superannua-
tion fund in proportion to the number of men for each
ai •
vl
sion of the said county of Lincoln at that time servingin-
the said force."
Mr. DEE DES moved the following clause :—" The chief
constable of any county police force,
and the watch com-
mittee of any city, borough, district, or place, is and are
hereby empowered to suspend or dismiss any constable
within their respective jurisdictions for misconduct or dere-
liction of duty; and in case of such suspension or dismissal,
all or any arrears of pay due to the said constable
committee
eshm eeailtltbe
forfeited ; and the said chief constable or
is and are hereby also empowered, at his or their discretion,
to fine any such constable in a sum of money
not exceed-
ing
one week's pay, and to reduce the said constable from
a superior to au inferior rank, such fine and
reduc-
tion in rank to be in addition to any other punish-
ment to which the said constable may be liable ; and all
punishments, penalties, and fines, such as above enume-
rated, heretofore imposed or inflicted under any rules
framed under and by virtue of the third section, two and
three Victoria, chapter 93, shall be deemed to have been
legally imposed or inflicted. The court of general or quar-
ter sessions for any county and the council for any borough,
allay, upon the recommendation of the chief constable of
anysounty police force, or of the superintendent of the
mit+ for the said borough, grant to any constable in the
oaf I county or borough out of the Superannuation Fund of
sairil county or borough a reward in money not exceeding

£3, in respect of and as a reward for any meritorious act
done by the said constable in the execution of his duty."
Some discussion followed, and the hon. member agreed
to withdraw the first part of the clause. The remaining
portion, with some verbal amendments, was agreed to.
Sir_W. MILES moved a clause for the abolition of local
parish constables, which was agreed to.
The bill with the additions was then passed.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.

On the order of the day for going into committee on this

-gir G. C. LEWIS wished to make some explanations
which he had not an opportunity of doing fully on a former
occasion: The object of the bill was to preserve valid
Roman Catholic charities to purposes to which those who
left endowments wished them to be applied ; but it was pro-
posed to give power to the Court of Chancery and the Charity
commissioners to alter designations. He understood, however,
that there was a want of unanimity on the subject. He did
not propose to press the bill this session. (Hear, hear,
from Mr. Bowyer and Mr. Maguire.) He would propose
that the exception to the existing law in reference to Ro-
man Catholic charities should be continued for another
year, and he would move that the order of the day be dis-
chared.
After a few words from Mr. S. ESTCOURT,
Mr. BOWYER said that the great objection to this bill
was, that it proposed to give legislative sanction for the
first time to the Act of Superstititious Uses of Charitable
Trusts. That act was passed in the time of Edward VI.
to enable the Sovereign to take possession of certain foun-
dations on the ground of their being applied to superstitious
purposes, but it was never intended to be prospective. Any
bill giving legislative sanction to such an act would seri-
ously offend Roman Catholics ; and he reminded Protestant
members that they had no interest in the subject, which
related entirely to the administration of the property left
for Roman Catholic purposes. It was intended by this
bill to bring them under the operation of the Charities Act
passed some years ago, which was passed to remedy, the
evils that were said to exist in respect to some Protestant
foundations. If the house, however, was determined to
interfere with the Roman Catholics, he thought they should
place them in the same position as Protestants. He had
no wish to throw any obstacles in the way of the settle-
ment of this question, and he hoped a satisfactory measure
would be introduced next session. _ _ _

Mr. HUTT regretted the course Government had taken
in proposing to except Roman Catholics from the act
passed some years previously, and to postpone the matter
till next session. He had heard so much about bringing in
a measure every next session, that he was not only sick, but
entirely distrustful of such promises.
Mr. SPOONER could not agree to the equity of the
exemption of Roman Catholics from the law
of the land, and he was aware that the
wealthy and influential portion of the Roman Catholic body
were in favour of some legislative enactment on this sub-
ject.
Mr. HENNESSY said that no bill introduced by Go-
vernment would receive the support of Roman Catholic
members which contained any offensive phraseology im-
puting to them superstitious uses.
Mr. BEAUMONT bore personal testimony to the state-
ment of the hon. member (Mr. Spooner) as to legislation on,
this subject by influential Roman Catholics, and the oppo-
sitiontto the bill was led exclusively by Irish Roman Catho-
lics, who really had no interest in the matter.
Mr. BOWYER said that he was exclusively an English
Roman Catholic.

Mr. BEAUMONT reminded the hon. and learned mem
ber that he was member for an Irish borough, and therefore
could not be considered exclusively an English Roman
Catholic.

After some remarks by Mr. NEWDEGATE, Sir G. GREY,
and Mr. KINNAIRD, the motion was agreed to, and the bill
was withdrawn.
COURT OF PROBATE ACT.
This bill went through committee, and was read a third
time and passed.
The house suspended sitting at 20 minutes to four o'clock.

The house resumed at six o'clock.
BRIDGWATER ELECTION PETITION.

The SPEAKER announced that he had received a
letter from Messrs. Baxter, Rose, and Norton, agents to
the petition complaining of an undue return for the borough
of Bridgwater, stating it was not their intention to proceed
with the rietition.
Colonel TYNTE said it was just what he had expected.
The petition, like so many others, was withdrawn at the
eleventh hour.
The order referring the petition to the committee was
then discharged.
AYLESBURY ELECTION PETITION.
Sir W. TROLLOPE brought up the report of the Ayles-
bury Election Committee. The committee had determined
that Thomas T. Bernard and S. G. Smith, jun., Esqrs.,
were duly elected to serve as burgesses for the borough of
Aylesbury; and that T. Vernon Wentworth, Esq., was
not duly elected. The committee had also come to the fol-
lowing resolution :—That T. Vernon Went-worth was by
his agent, Benjamin Child, guilty of bribery at the last
election. That Thomas Polstur was bribed by the sum of
two guineas, being paid for the hire of a cart. That it was
not proved that the bribery was with the knowledge of T.
Vernon Wentworth. The committee had altered the poll
list by striking out the name of Thomas Waite, who was
not entitled to vote. •
The return was then amended by striking out the name
of Mr. Wentworth, and the evidence taken by the com-
mittee was ordered to be laid before the house.
CHARGES ON THE CONSOLIDATED FUND.
Mr. WISE gave notice that early next session he would
move for a select committee to inquire into all charges on
and payments mach out of the Consolidated Fund, and to
examine the miscellaneous estimates since 1847, with a
view to consider what meats could be adopted to reduce
the expenditure without detriment to the public service.
NAVAL YARDS IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. B. COCHRANE gave notice that on Thursday he
would ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, as
Scotland furnished so large a portion of the material for
building ships, anh as many of the workmen in the public
yards came from that country, it would not be for the pub-
lic advantage that Government building yards should be-
established in that country.
MAIDSTONE ELECTION PETITION.
Mr. DUNLOPreported from the Maidstone election com-
mittee that they found that Wm. Lee and Charles Buxton,
Esqrs., were duly elected. That Henry Smith was proved
on his own admission, to have been bribed with a sum of £lO.
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
In answer 4o a question from Mr. HUTT,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said he would to-morrow move for
leave to bring in a bill to continue for another year the ex-
emption of Roman Catholic charities from the control of the
commissioners.
Mr. HUTT begged to say he would offer the bill all the
opposition in his power.
HERRING FISHERY IN ARGYLLSHIRE.
Mr. FINLAY asked the Secretary of State for the Home
Department if he had received any official intimation of the
probability of a riotous collision amongst the herring fisher-
men of Lochlyne, Argyllshire, in consequence of the sys-
tematic transgression of the act 14 and 15 Vict., c. 26, by
certain fishermen in that locality, and whether any steps
had been taken to maintain the peace
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the attention of the Government
had been drawn to the subject some time since. It was re-
ferred to the Lord Advocate; he reported that the Fishery
Board was quite prepared for anything that might occur,
and had taken all the precaution in their power to prevent
any disturbances.
JUDICIAL STATISTICS.
Mr. M. MILNES asked the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether it would be practicable to lay on
the table of the house the judicial statistics of England and
Wales, which were made up to the 29th day of September,
each year, before the succeeding Easter recess ; and whe-
ther some similar statistics for Scotland might not be ap-
pended to the said report?
Sir G. C. LEWIS said with regard to the police and pri-
sons statistics, they were furnished from accounts which
were made up annually for a year ending on the 29th of
September, as that was the close of the official year in the
boroughs and counties. The commercial statistics were
made up to the close of the ordinary year on the 31st of
December , but owing to the winter assizes there was always
some delay in their preparation, but he trusted that in future
they would always be ready before Easter. He might men-
tion that our criminal statistics were published far in ad-
vance of those of other countries—France for example.
MARRIAGE OF MEN IN THE PREVENTIVE
SERVICE.
Mr. BLACK asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if
there was any regulation preventing the men in the pre-
ventive service Inland Revenue from marrying, and if men
had been dismissed in Scotland for this offence ?
Mr. LAING said that as the preventive service was un-
der the control of the Board of Inland Revenue, it was his
duty to answer the question. There was no regulation ply-
venting the men from marrying, but the employment was
restricted to unmarried men; *the reason was that as the
men had to travel over a large extent of country, and to be
absent from home about four nights in the week, it was
found married men were rather apt to neglect their duty.
Four mon bad recently left the service on their marriage,
but that could hardly be called a dismissal, as it was a con-
dition of their engagement from the first.
NORWICH ELECTION

Col. FRENCH said he wished to ask a question, but as
it was a matter of privilege, he was in any case entitlpd to
precedence. He wished to call the attention of the house
to the peculiar position in which they then stood with regard
to the Norwich election petitions. At the general election
Mr. Schneider and Lord Bury were returned. Soon after a
petition aas presented against both. Lord Bury then ac-
cepted office, and the house advisedly—for their attention
was called to the subject—assented to a new writ being
issued. At the second election Lord Bury was again re-
turned. Two petitions were presented against this return,
and he understood they were referred to the committee ap-
pointed to try the petition against the first return; they were
however, not proceeded with, and the committee only tried
the first ; they reported that the election of both members
was void ; that they were by their agents guilty of bribery.
The 36th clause of the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act

enacted "that any candidate who shall be declared to have
been guilty of bribery by himself or his agents shall be ine-
ligible to sit for the same place during the Parliament then
in existence." This was a peculiar case, because when Lord
Bury was elected the second time no declaration had been
_ _

made that he had been guilty of bribery; the subsequent
decision to that effect placed him in a peculiar position, and
it was desirable to have the present case decided before the

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on the first election. He begged to ask the Speaker whether
the second election was not void.
Mr. WALPOLE said that as the subject was one of great
importance, he wished to say a few words before the Speaker
answered the question put to him. The case was this—
after the general election a petition, an the ground of bri-
bery,hadbeen prestn: od against the return of Mr. Schneider
and Lord Bury; after that the noble lord accepted office, and
the question then arose whether, under the circumstances,
the new writ ought to issue; he believed the house decided
that it
that it couought.be and he believed that the Speaker, irt. declaring
ld issued, stated what was unquestionable law.
The greatest inconvenience would arise if it were not so.
Suppose a number of petitions had been presented at the
iop • n eni of Parliamenteainst hon. gentlemen now on the
efe w,
Treasury bench ; if the house had laid down 0.4 rule that
no writ could issue until they were decided, when hen.
gentlemen accepted office they could not have returned to
the house to give information of the acts of the Government.
The general committee of elections had to consider, since
i'sl asecond petition presented, which was tht course
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law, take the two petitions together. That being so, they
had nothing but to proceed on the first petition, and upon
that they found Lord Bury's return void, through bribery
committed by his agents. The Act of Parliament was un-
der this circumstance imperative, rendering, as it did, the
member unqualified to sit for the same place during the
same session of Parliament. The question, therefore, re-
mains, what is to be done with reference to the second peti-
tion ? Were it not so near the end of the session there would
be no difficulty in this question, for the second petition
would come on to be heard and would be determined. upon.
But in the present state of affairs this would not occur be-
fore the prorogation. Under these circumstances if the
house ordered two writs to issue, it would involve itself in
a case of great difficulty. He therefore ventured to suggest
that a writ for the election of one burgess only should issue.
Sir G. GREY thought this was a very irregular discus-
sion. There was no motion before the house, and they were
discussing a matter upon a question being put to the chair.
Mr. FRENCH rose to order. If there was no motion,
the right hon. baronet ought not to address the house.
Sir G. GREY would conclude with a motion. The hon.
gentleman put himself forward on the behalf of Lord Bury,
but he (Sir G. Grey) was given to understand by that noble
lord that he had no intention or desire to come down to take
his seat. He thought that this question ought to be more
fitly considered when—as would be thdcase to-morrow—
the new writ was issued. To satisfy the anxious desire of
the hon. gentleman to be in order—(a laugh)—he moved
the adjournment of the house.
k Sir J. SHELLEY gave notice that he should move that
no writ issue in this case until the evidence was in the
hands of members.
Mr. FRENCH objected to the lecturing tone of the right
hon. gentleman (Sir G. Grey). He had never put himself
forward as representing Lord Bury's views. He simply
brought on this question as one of privilege which he, as
an independent member, was desirous for the honour of the
house to have ventilated.
The SPEAKER said that in reply to the question of the
hon. gentleman he had to state that the question was not
one of privilege. The only answer which he could give to
the question of the hon. member was to refer him to the
act of Parliament, which alone could furnish him an
answer. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the house now
wished the subject to drop.
Sir G. GREY withdrew his motion.
THE FOREIGN DEBATE.
Lord ELCHO said that he had received a letter from his
noble friend at the head of the Government stating, that
under the severe domestic loss which he had received, the
noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would not be
in his place until Monday, Under these circumstances he
could not but postpone his motion until that day, on which,
however, he hoped the noble lord would give him an oppor-
tunity of bringing it on.
CRUELTIES TO MERCHANT SEAMEN.

Mr. M. MILNES presented a petition from James Ken-
nedy, a seaman at present in hospital at Liverpool, through
injuries which had been inflicted upon him at sea, praying
the house to take the system under which he was a sufferer
into its consideration, and to devise some remedy.
Mr. M. MILNES then rose to move that a humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying her Majesty to
be graciously pleased to enter into negotiations with the Go-
vernment of the United States of America, for the purpose
of preventing the assaults and cruelties committed on mer-
chant seamen engaged in traffic between this country and the
United States, and of bringing to justice the perpetrators of
such offences, many of whom escape with impunity in
consequence of the defects of the present system of inter-
national jurisdiction. In bringing this subject before the
house, he begged to state that it was a question which had
agitated large and influential bodies of men, both in Eng-
land and America. He wished to draw the attention of the
house to a large mass of crime unpunished end unchallengd ;
and to propose to show the Government how that was to be
remedied. At present a vast deal of cruelty took place. in
the vessels which plied between this country and America.
Constantly—sometimes almost daily—occurrences of this
kind came under notice in the town of Liverpool, and the
hospitals frequently contained numerous cases of the kind.
Such, however, was the present state of the law and of our
relations with the United States, that the men who had
committed these cruelties were perfectly unchallenged.
This subject had been very ably explained in a pamphlet by
Mr, Bright, of Liverpool, and indeed the few words he
should address to the house wonld be but a brief resume of
it. The pamphlet was in the form of a letter, addressed to
his hon. friend the member for Bedford, by whom the sub-
ject was to have been brought forward in that house. Un-
happily, however, his hon. friend was now a member of the
Government, and hence, through our system of politics,
his talents were (except in his own department) lost to that
house and to his country. (A laugh.) As an instance of
the imperfection of the present state of the law, he would
bring to the attention of the house a case lately decided by
Baron Bramwell. In that case a man committed a murder
two miles beyond the jurisdiction of this country, and
although the facts were proved, the learned judge could only
direct the jury not to find a verdict. This was done, and
the man was handed over to the American consul, who at
a great expense had him and his witnesses conveyed to
America. They had no sooner got there than the witnesses
absconded, and the murderer, was, therefore, set at large.
So in another case, the operation of the laws enabled a Corsi-
can sailor to put himself beyond restraint, and this man, who
had been guilty ofmurder, was now at large soraewhere inthis
country. These cases were no doubt of a heavier kind than
many, but the ordinary cases of cruelty were so numerous
that they had obtained a name for themselves, and were
known in Liverpool as " consul's cases." From June, 1857,
to June, 1858, 138 consul's cases were taken ; from June,
1858, to the following March, 80 eonsul's cases occurred.
Since then 23 cases had occurred. In some of these cases
men who were engaged as stewards were put to the work of
common sailors, and were cruelly treated because they were
unfit for the work. In many of these cases the offenders
were not Americans ; in fact, in a great number the only
man in a ship against whom a charge of cruelty could not
be substantiated was the American captain. The house
would agree with him that for this state of things a remedy
ought to be found, and he believed that the people of Ame-
rica were equally desirous to find a remedy. The remedy
he would suggest was of two kinds. Iu the first place, he
thought that the powers of the consuls might be safely in-
creased so as to give them a jurisdiction to try offenders.
And in the next place, the tribunals of this country might
with the intervention of the Government of the United
States, be enabled to try guilty parties. With regard to the
consuls, he would remind the house that, in the origin of
the consular system, under the French Minister. Colbert,
these officers claimed the exclusiveprivilege oftrying French
subjects. Without going to anything like this length in the
case of the consuls for America, a means might yet be
found of enabling them to deal with these eases. With re-
gard to the plan of extending the jurisdiction of our tribu-
nals, so that there might be some objection in the heavier
cases, but in those cases which might be disposed of by a
stipendiary magistrate he saw no reason why the :plan
should not be adopted. He trusted that this subject would
be taken up by the Government in a large.and comprehen-
sive spirit, and that no technicalities would be allowed to
stand in the way of its settlement, He believed it would
be dealt with in a fairand openmanner in the United States,
and he had seen a letter from that eminent writer, Mr.
Hawthorne, expressing an opinion that in the States
everydisposition would be shown to avoid difficulties. He
had once seen in a work on international law a fantastical
notion put forward that the law relating to the high seas
must remain as variable as the sea itself. He hoped, how-
ever, that in these days it would be found not to be so, but
that the Government would be enabled so to adjust matters
on thLt greet highway that the cruelties which now dis-
graced it might, with the help of that great nation across
the water. at once and for ever cease. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. EWART seconded the motion with a few obser-
vations, but spoken in so low a tone that their purport did
not reach the gallery.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said the hon. member for Pomfret had
done good service by bringing 'up this subject, and the evil
alleged by him to arise from the present state of international
law was under consideration. He (Sir G. Lewis) could not
admit however that the evil arose from the present state of
things, as the international law did not permit, except by
treaty, any jurisdiction to one country's tribunals over the
subjects of another for crimes committed on the high seas.
There was an extradition treaty with the United States ap-
plying to murder, arson, forgery, and one or two other
crimes committed in another country by the subjects of the
other. In this case murder, or attempt to murder, was com-
mitted in an American ship on the high seas, and conse-
quently, according to the present construction of the law,
on American territory. On touching at an English port
the offender might be handed over to the American Consul
to be sent home, but that course was seldom taken on account
of the expense. He was not amenable to the English law
any more than if the offence had been committed on the land
territory of the United States. It appeared that cruelties
were often committed in American ships on the high seas,
and the present state of the law offered no remedy. The
question then was, whether any conventioncould be entered
into with the United States so as to meet these cases. There
was one obvious way, and that was to include them in the
present extradition treaty. The objection to that was the
expense which would attend its working. Another plan
was for the United States to give us power to treat
such cases in English courts, the United States to have
the same power in America. It might be provided that on
the arrival of an American ship at Liverpool, and notice
being given that a crime had been committed on board, the
English magistrates could deal with it—the same privilege
being given to America. He saw no objection to such a
treaty, nor did he think that Parliament would hesitate to I
sanction it, as the intelligence of American courts of justice
would, no doubt, givo ample security for the fair trial of
British subjects. But there was another plan upon which
his hon. friend had touched, and that was the arming the
consul with powers to try criminals. Even that plan. if
the two Governments would consent to it, might be effec-
tual ; but he wished to remind the house that this country
had never allowed a foreign power to exercise jurisdiction
within its territory. If you gave the power to the consul

you must give hill; the aid of the civil power both for arrest
and for custody, so that in any case he would be exercising
criminal jurisdiction under the English law. He would no
doubt follow the English law, and have an English barris-
ter for assessor, and therefore it would resolve itself into an
application of the English law. _however, he quite con-
curred in the sentiments expressed by his hon. friend, and
he thought the subject one well worthy the consideration
of the house.

Mr. HENLEY said that the subject was one of the deep-
est importance. No doubt many offences were committed
in American ships coming to England, and most probably
a similar number were committed in American ships going
home. He wished, therefore, that the hon. member had
told them whether there had been any or many trials of
such cases in the American courts, as their number would
be some guide as to the attention with which a proposal of
reciprocal criminal jurisdiction would probably be received
in the United States. As to the expediency of such a plan,
they must remember that if theyadopted it with one nation
they could hardly refuse it to another, and then it would
become a question whether they would like to submit Eng-
lish subjects to the tender mercies of an Austrian, Spanish,
or Russian police. The consular plan involved the putting
our persons at the disposal of the officer of a foreign power.
The question was surrounded with difficulties but the hon.
member had acted judiciously in bringing it before the
house.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the subject had
eng•zgad the attention of the law officers of the crown for
some time, both under the present Government and its pre-
decessors. It had been the desire of both Governments to

come to some arrangement with th. 2 'United States, but the
difficulty was that this Government could suggest no expo 7
di,Gut but that of submitting the cases to the ordinary civil
authorities of the country. To the proposition of giving ju-
dicial authority to the consul, he (the Attorney-General)
and his eolleagaes had alwaye en the most strenuous op-
position, as ho never couldeauset te 4-4:05/A tlo ri M.
jurisdiction from the ordinary tribunals of the country.)
(Hear.) But then a reciprocal arrangement might be esta-
Wished, and it was no objection to it that other nations
might asfr, for what was concaded to the United States. The
atTang'emen.t 044' carried out ter,ms of perfect
equality, and these term§ eo4ld not be complied with wept
by a country whose forms of criminal procqthlre Were the
same as thce of Engla.nd. With respect to gtvnag authority
to the consul,
nothing IdU amore common than for an Amer
rican captain, on arriving at Havre or some other continen.
tal port, to go at once to his consul, charge his whole crew