The Sun.
London, England, 1861-05-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 24, 1861.

ments in the accounts which the report proved to be so ne.

cessary. lie should have thought the Admiralty to be guilty
of a neglect of duty if it had postponed for one day longer
than absolutely necessary the consideration of the evils
which had crept into the dockyard accounts, but after the
assurance of the noble lord, and knowing how competent
the Duke of Somerset was to deal with the affairs of his de-

partment, he was bound to believe that the Admiralty was
doing all in its power for the purpose of obtaining an accu-
rate system of accounts. (Hear, hear.)

The amendment was then withdrawn.
VENETIA AND HUNGARY.
Mr. GRIFFITH asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether information had been received that the

Austrian Government were removing the troops of the late
Duke of Modena from the territory of Venetia, and also
whether that Government were transferring troops from
Mantua and other fortresses in Venetia to Hungary for the
purpose of the collection of taxes in the latter country.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that as to the immediate ques•
tion put to him by the hon. member, he could only say
that no information was received at the Foreign-office re-
specting the removal of the troops of the late Duke of Mo-
dena from Mantua, or that they were to be employed in the
collection of taxes in Hungary. As to the policy pursued
by Austria he was not called on, nor was it right he should
state his opinion, but the hon. gentleman certainly misun-

derstood him with reference to what he said the other even

ing about Hungary. He said no more than that he wished
that country to enjoy her ancient liberties, and that it
would be found compatible with the rights of the present
dynasty.

THE CASE OF CAPTAIN BPDONALD.

Mr. SCULLY asked the First Lord of the Treasury whe

ther any communication took place between the British and
Prussian Governments subsequent to the 4th of March last
with respect to the case of Captain M'Donald, who was ar-
rested and imprisoned at Bonn, and if so, whether he had
any objection to produce it. He had received several com-
munications on the subject which showed a strong feeling
of resentment on the part of the Prussians in consequence
of the observations made in that house.

Lord PALMERSTON replied that a despatch had been
received by Count Bernstoff, the Prussian Minister at this
Court, from Baron Schlenitz. To that an answer was re-
turned, and as soon as it arrived at Berlin there would be no
objection to lay it on the table.
SUPPLY.

The house went into committee of supply, Mr. Massey
in the chair.
A sum of £7,225,500 was voted to pay off and discharge
Exchequer bills outstanding.
On a vote of £3,000,000 for stores, timber for the fleet,
&c.,

Mr. LINDSAY moved that the sum of £949,371 for
limber be reduced by £300,000. They had 17 or 20 wooden
line-of-battle ships more than all the world put together,
and he did not see any necessity for building more. Only
£350,000 was required when they built wooden ships exclu-
sively, and the house was now called on to vote a million of
money. He was content to allow even £700,000, but the
sum required was so exorbitant that he moved it be lessened
by the amount already stated.
Mr. BAXTER seconded the motion. He had an amend-
ment of his own on the paper to reduce the vote by
£258,000, but it would be more convenient to settle the
question on the motion of his hon. friend. He had some
remarks to make on the subject to which his hon. friend
called the attention of the committee; but before doing so
he thought it necessary to take a survey of the state of the
navy. Now, so far from the fleet being in an inefficient
state, it had never been in a more efficient state than at the
present moment. It was stated by the noble lord at the head
of the Admiralty that they had more than double the num-
ber of line-of-battle ships, that is, large frigates of war, than
the French had, and carrying 20guns, and they had at that
moment serving in the royal navy of this country more men
and boys than were serving in the royal marine of France.
(Hear.) Another fact was that the merchant ships of Eng-
land had increased in every sea, while those of France had
fallen off, and their neighbours at the other side of the chan-
nel were becoming very seriously alarmed lest they might
not be able to obtain men sufficient to man the French navy.
The fact was that impressment had the effect of deterring
men from entering the navy of France. The people of
this country had been unnecessarily alarmed by the
reported state of preparations for war in the
French naval dockyards. Now nothing of the kind was
going on in France; and two eminent authorities who had
been recently to visit Cherbourg, and one of the other
French ports, had expressed that the reports thus circulated
were neither more nor less than moonshine. He believed
there never was a time when the navy of England was in a
more satisfactory condition than at the present moment.
(Hear.) They had, for instance, in the Medway 69 steam
ships, carrying 1,522 guns, and propelled by 17,580 horse-
power. Then at Portsmouth they had 51 steam ships,
carrying 1,235 guns, and propelled by 12,753 horse-power,
and these were irrespective of their channel fleet, and of
their Pacific and West India squadrons. Having, then,
one of the most powerful navies that this country ever pos-
sessed, he asked in the name of common sense, with his
hon. friend the member for Sunderland, upon what ground
could they require a vote of £3,489,000, or £285,000 more
than was voted last year for naval stores. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the timber, he begged to call the attention
of the committee to the evidence of Sir Baldwin Walker on
the subject. The hon. gentleman read passages from the
evidence, showing that Sir B. Walker had stated that there
was great difficulty in procuring timber for ship building
purposes; and he also referred to the evidence of Mr. Dun-
das, storekeeper to the navy, to the effect that the expendi-
ture of the country for timber was great, yet with all that
they could not obtain the necessary material. "It is not a
question of money," said Mr. Dundas, " it is a question of
physical impossibility." He would now read a statement
from the evidence, showing the great increase in the expen-
diture for timber. In 1852-3 the vote for timber was
£270,000; in 1855-6, the vote was £451,000; in 1856-7, it
was £385,000; and in 1859-60 it had increased to £672,000.
It was very proboble that the noble lord at the head of the
Government was now of opinion that their national de-
fences were in an efficient state, and that being so he hoped
that the noble lord would come down to the house in the
next year, and showing that their defences were in a satis-
factory state, submit that a great reduction might be made
in the expenditure, and that the duties on tea and sugar
might be considerably reduced. (Hear.) Under the cir-
cumstances to which he had called attention, he had great
pleasure in seconding the motion of his hon. friend the
member for Sunderland, who, he hoped, would take the
sense of the committee on the subject. (Hear.)
Lord CLARENCE PAGET quite agreed with hon.
members that there was an anomaly in their reducing the
vote for labour, and asking an increased vote for timber.
It was, however, well known to every gentleman that
for the last two years the expenditure in the dockyards had
been very great, and hence, therefore, an immense addi-
tional expense arose over and above what had been ex-
pected, and hence, also, their stock of timber had been
reduced so low that he thought every one would agree with
her Majesty's Government that it should be increased.
(Hear, hear.) This year their consumption of timber was
less than last year, when it was more than doubled, amount-
ing to 80,000 loads. The result was, that they had now
only 51,000 loads of timber in stock. They proposed this
year to purchase 73,000 loads of timber, and they expected
that the consumption of it this year would not exceed
42,000. Having, then, 51,000 loads of timber on hand, they
expected they should have at the end of the year 82,000
loads, and that was not too great a stock of timber to keep
up in her Majesty's dockyards. (Hear, hear.) That was, in
fact, two years' consumption. If it should turn out that
the Admiralty had obtained this timber before the consent
of the House of Commons was obtained, he ventured to say
that the House of Commons was pledged to that sum. (Oh.)
He granted that the privilege of the House of Commons
was great in matters relating to the est'mates and to votes ;
but he found in what his hon. friend the member for Mon-
Luso (Mr. Baxter) had stated. an sirg”,...t -which he
thought was an answer to the whole of the objections. That
answer was to be found in his reference to, and statements
of the storekeeper. Very remarkable statements had been
made last year with regard to their stock of timber, and the
Admiralty took every possible means of increasing the stock
of that necessary, and of putting it on a proper footing.
Hon. members said the, Admiralty should not incur expen
ture for timber without the consent of the House of Cora-
mons—(hear)—but hon. gentlemen might not be aware that
it occurred that sometimes one year, sometimes two years,
and sometimes three years elapsed before they could have a
sufficient stock of timber on hand. Now, he found that
out of their whole stock of timber, there was not more than
one-fourth of it English timber. Well, if they were to
wait for the assent of the House of Commons, the result
would be that they would have no timber at all—
(hear, hear)—and they therefore, made their arrange-
ments to secure it. They had had ship-building firms
come to the Admiralty, and representing that they could
not obtain the necessary description of timber to carry
out their contracts in the markets, asked the Admiralty
to supply them with English oak plank. Well, the Ad-
miralty supplied them not only with that for gunboats,
but with Dantzic and other timbers which could not be
got in the market at the time. What, he asked, would be
said with regard to the want of those stores, if the Admi-
ralty had not gone previously into the market and purchased
them ? (Hear, hear.) With regard, then, to timber, he was
bound to rei eat to the hon. gentleman that not only was the
House of Commons pledged to that item of expenditure, but
that it was pledged. 410.,t0..a considerable sum for next
year ; and thero .seAsitia,4-hus remain one• third nacre which
would hlivilf tit 'be paid for. (Hear.)
Sir F. SMITH said it appeared to him a mere farco to be
discussing this estimate if the money had been already spent
not only'for this year but for future years. (Hear, hear.)
They ought to know from the Government what contracts
had been entered into for timber. He should also like to
learn whether the entire sum voted last year had been ex-
pended in the purchase of timber.
Mr. FINLAY admitted that great loss had arisen from
building ships of war with unseasoned timber, but he gave
it as his opinion that the large sum of nearly one million of
money ought not to have been pledged or spent in the pur-
chase of timber without the sanction of the-House of Cora •
mons, He questioned whether our navy in its present con-
dition was equal to that of France, which had more iron
ships, and he could not agree with the hon. member for
Nolitsoso that the British navy was is each tiltate of efQ-