The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-15 00:00:00

tions, and recommendations formarks of honour at the hand

of the Sovereign had gone by favour. Every First Lord
had his own friends to provide for, and then he probably
took the advice of the First Naval Lord, who knew certain

officers, with whom he had served, and naturally recom •
mended them. It was impossible that there could be any
confidence iu the service until the colleagues of the First

Lord were made responsible with him for appointments,
promotions, and rewards. During 40 years of peace the
proportion of captains employed was 80 out of 600 ; and
few, therefore, could rise to the rank of admiral without
friends at the Admiralty. In peace a captain must have
been six years, and in war four years in command of a
ship before he was entitled to rise to the rank of admiral,
but if he were not employed he could not rise, and if he
had no interest he could not get employment. There-
were 99 admirals on the list. They had more young
admirals than they could employ, or did employ. If an
officer could not reach the ear of the First Lord he remained
without employment and was put upon the reserved
list. He was one of 'those who was displaced when
he had a fair right and title to be employed. He never
could obtain employment. Captains who had been six, nine,
and ten years afloat were able to get ships, while other cap.
thins could not serve the time necessary to keep on the
active list. When the experienced captains died the coun-
try lost their services, and, in addition, the advantage of
the survivors having shared the experience. Until some
consideration was shown for merit the evil must continue.
If it were known that the only road to promotion was by
zeal, energy, and gallant good conduct, there would be a
very different feeling in the service. Officers who had no
influence saw First Lord after First Lord succeed to office,
and just when they expected that the First Lord had pro-
vided for his friends and could give encouragement to merit
a change came, and with the change disappointment. They
had rolled the stone uphill with the greatest difficulty, when
it fell and crushed them, and they had to begin over and
over again. That was his case for 30 years, and hundreds
of others, who had spared no effort to
hard
employment never
could get a command. His heart had been almost broken,
and he had been thrust upon the retired list when he had
energy and ability to have • done his' country some service.
(Hear, hear.) Men who had not used every effort to get
employment were unworthy the profession and should be
thrust aside, but those who offered for any station were en-
titled to some little consideration. He was glad that the
Admiralty had promised some advantages to chaplains and
surgeons, but something was equally due to masters and
lieutenants. (Hear, hear.) He suggested that rank and
some small pecuniary consideration would remove discon-
ent and afford encouragement to young officers who were
just entering the service. (Hear, hear.)

Sir F. BARING said, that in the year 1848 the average
age of those officers whose names stood upon the admirals'
list was 70, and that there were only six of them whose age
was under 60, while there were at the present moment 31
admirals who were below that age. The consequence of
the state of things which had formerly prevailed was that
when he, being then at the head of the Admiralty, had com-
municated with two gallant admirals, with the view of send-
ing them out to take command in the East Indies, the
answer ;which he had received was that they were too old
to perform the service which was required at their hands,
and he had eventually been obliged to appoint an officer to
the command whose age was 72 years. (Hear.) There
were, at the period to which he referred, about 100 officers
in the captains' list who were incanable of service, and on
that of the lieutenants', which embraced 2,300 names, about
1,000 in a similar position. He had, under these circum-
stances, found it impossible to leave matters as they were,
and had therefore introduced a measure which, in conjunc-
tion with other measures in the same direction by which it
had been followed, had caused the present efficient state
of the navy list. The question of the age of naval officers
was'one which had been over and over again taken into
consideration at the Admiralty, but however well any
scheme for dealing with it might look upon paper, to strike
distinguished and historic names, such, for instance, as that
of the hon. and gallant membei for Southwark, off the list
was by no means a pleasant task for a First Lord of the
Admiralty to discharge. (Hear, hear.) With regard to
the complaints which were made by those officers who oc-
cupied the lower ranks in the service, he could only say
that it was impossible to make every lieutenant an admiral,
and that, in his opinion, the best mode of dealing with them
would be to open a door which would admit of their retire-
ment from the service with honour and satisfaction to them-
selves. (Hear, hear.) So far as the question of promotion
was concerned, he thought that, instead of promotion hav-
ing been slow, there had been a considerable flow of it for
the last few years. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said, it had been recommended
that the officers of the superior class of merchants' ships
should be made available for the navy, but he should remind
the committee that it would not be easy to secure the ser-
vices of such men. For his own part, he should not, when
he had been in the East India Company's service, have
thought of entering the navy, inasmuch as the former
service was much preferable on the score of pay,
and in consequence of the rapidity with which promotion
might be obtained. Those who served in the superior
classes of merchant vessels had the prospect before them of
becoming partners in some mercantile house, or of settling
down comfortably in some other capacity, and it was not
therefore probable that many would be lured into the navy
from that service. As to the manner in which the officers
in the lower ranks of the navy might be provided for, he
could only say that in his opinion the best mode of dealing
with them would be either to raise them to the rank of
commanders or buy them out, as had been done in the East
India Company's service, in which a man on leaving the
service received a certain sum of money, according to the
rank which he filled, and a small premium. If a similar
practice were adopted in the navy the lieutenants' list
would soon be cleared. He might add that when a man had
served as a midshipman for eight or nine years, and after-
wards a lieutenant for 13 or 14 years, making in all a period
of from 21 to 23 years' service, he generally became, owing
to the wear and tear of constitution co which he was sub-
jected, practically unfitted for duty as a quarter-deck officer.
What, then, under these circumstances. was to be done
with him ? He could not be made an admiral; but then he
might have conferred upon him the privilege of writing
Captain So and So on his door, together with a small addi-
tion to his pay if he remained in the service, and by that
means the list might be cleared. There was at the present
moment in the navy a large number of officers who were
discontented, because they saw, as it were, no daylight
before them, and because their youth had passed away,
leaving. them to spend the rest of their days in the endea-
vour to live on a pittance which was a disgrace to the
country. (Hear, hear.) He might also observe that the
navy, instead of being a cheap was an expensive profes-
sion, and that as a consequence it was idle to hope that
many officers from the superior classes of the merchant ser-
vice would be induced to enter it. As to the admirals' list.
he did not think it much mattered how many names stood
upon it, as long as there was a power of selection. (Hear.)
Mr. LYGON said an attempt had been made to fasten on
the late Government the authorship of a scheme the ten-
dency of which was to do violence to the feelings of many
gallant officers in the naval service. They had no such
intention, but believed that the system was one which
would give to every officer his fair share of promotion with-
out hurting the feelings of any, while it would increase his
pride in his profession.
Admiral DIJNCOMBE said it was currently stated that
the officers who had been consulted in this matter by the
late First Lord had one and all disapproved of his plan.
Admiral WALCOTT declared that the scheme had given
infinite pain to many old and gallant officers, who.were the
pride and ornament of the navy, and whom every young
officer might look np to as an example. The hon. gentle-
man (Mr. Lygon) and the late First Lord had no know-
ledge of the profession, or they would not have 'adopted
such a system. As regarded the lieutenants, whose posi-
tion was a perfect reproach to the country, the Admiralty
might give them the rank of commander, with some little
additional pay, say ls. a -day, and probably they would be
satisfied. Naval officers should be encouraged to improve
themselves in the various branches of their profession, and
they should be made to feel that this was the only road to
employment and promotion. In the case of the gunners'
officers, however, no such encouragement was held out, and
he thought their case was really deserving of considera-
tion.
Sir J. PAKTNGTON, referring to the statement that all
the officers whom he had consulted had disapproved of his
plan, stated that he had asked the opinion of a great num-
ber of officers without the slightest knowledge of their pre-
vious bias, and an overwhelming majority had given their
cordial assent to the proposal.
Admiral DUNCOMBE said he had referred to the old
flag officers as objecting to it.
Lord C. PAGET had understood the right hon gentle-
tleman (Sir J. Pakington) to say, on the subect of the
present rate of promotion, that he had only during one
year the opportunity of promoting two commanders to be
captains, and five lieutenants to be commanders. During
the year 1818, when the right hon. gentleman was in office,
there were nine admirals made from captains, 22 captains
made from commanders, 62 commanders made from lieu-
tenants, and 51 lieutenants made from mates. He (Lord
C. Paget) did not say that even that was sufficient promo-
tion, but it made up a very different figure from that which
the right hon. gentleman put before the committee.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he had spoken of promotion
on the active list.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also votes for
£243,957 for military pensions and allowances; £83,416 for
civil pensions and allowances; £175,000 for ships for con-
veyance of troops on account of the army; and £708,337
for Post-office department (packet service).
On the vote of £lOO,OOO for the payment of gratuities to
seamen now serving in her Majesty's ships, who have at
least five years to serve, or who engage to serve for five
years if so required,
Mr. W. S. LINDSAY said he wished to direct the at-
tention of the committee to the scale of payment of seamen
in the navy. He would be the last to oppose unnecessarily
an increase of that pay, for he had been a sailor himself;
but he asked if that increased pay was necessary, and, if so,
would it effect the object in view ? A bounty was increased
pay in another form. The right hon. gentleman the late
First Lord, in a time of peaces but taking alarm at rumours
which had not the slightest foundation, thought it was
necessary to hurry on the work of manning the navy. It
was extraorJinary that, while the pay of the seaman and
his position in the navy were better than in the merchant
service—while his work was less severe, and that he was
not only provided for in sickness, but in old age, when we
wanted men to enter the navy they could not be got. There
must be something wrong to account for such a state of
things. (Hear, hear.) Excessive drill was alleged as one
reason, and flogging as another. What a degrading position
it was to strip a man and flog him before his shipmates, and
that not after any trial, but from the mere impulse of the
moment. (Hear.) He (Mr. Lindsay) did not advocate the
doing away with corporal punishment ; it might be neces-
sary; but let a man, before being punished, be tried by a
court-martial composed of naval officers, and then if he was
held to have deserved punishment, let it be inflicted under
the authority of that tribunal. The bounty of £lO, while
it increased the pay of the Royal navy, ended with increas-
ing the pay of the merchant service from £2los. to £3 10s.
per month. And yet, after saddling an important and de-
pressed interest with a heavy additional burden, the bounty
did not effect the object that the Government had in view.
The shipping interest of this country were running a great
ocean race with all the countries in the world, and anything
thatraised the rate of wages paid in British ships made the
shipowner less able to run the race prescribed for him by
the law. The £lO bounty created dissatisfaction in the
British navy. The seamen asked why they should not get
£lO as well a.. the men of the merchant service. Well, the
Government now proposed to vote £5 to able seamen.
Would that satisfy them ? They would say that if it were
just to give them £5 it was equally just to give them £lO.
He had do doubt it would bo necessary to vote another
£lOO,OOO, and still the Government would not be. able to
gain their object. He certainly thought the offer of a £lO
bounty a mistake on the part of the late Government.
Lord 0, PAGET said lie was now enabled to give anp ex-
planation of this vote, which he was unable to do On Fri,
day. At that time the order in Council was not issued, and
he preferred to wait until he was in a position to propose
this estimate. He wished to repeat the opinion he had be-
fore expressed, that nothing but the most urgent necessity
could justify a rempurpo to bounties, especially to bounties
of so large an ail:lona f Hear,) A system of bounties

might be compared to those opium draughts which were
commoninEastern countries : each dose must be stronger than
the former. in like manner, if our seamen were taught to
expect that at the least cloud in the west, or approach to a
political difficulty, a bounty would be offered, the Admiralty
would never be able to get, a seaman without a bounty.
(Hear.) The wisdom of giving a bounty ought therefore to
be very carefully considered by any Government before they
proposed it, and the bounty ought never, in his opinion, to
be adopted without the sanction of the House of Commons.
The bounty offered by the late Government had certainly
rapidly increased our force of seamen. But another ques-
tion then arose. The Government had not only to consider
the position of those who entered the navy from the mer-
chant service, but also the position of those seamen who had
been serving their country faithfully, who had learrlt in the
Royal Navy the whole of the duties of a seamen, and who
had come to be efficient men-of-war's-men. Now, he wished
to bring this matter home to his right hon. friend (Sir J.
Pakington) as a personal question. He would suppose that
his right hon. friend and himself were captains of line-of-
battle ships, and that instead of a scarcity of seamen there
was a scarcity of captains of line-of-battle ships. That had
happened before, not in the English, but in the French
service, for in France during the revolution the captains of
merchantmen were taken out of their ships and put in ccm-
mend of men-of-war. They wore the uniform and enjoyed
all the privileges of captains of men-of-war. Now, suppose
that some respectable merchant captain, who was a very
good seaman, but utterly unaquainted with the duties of
captain of a man-of--war, were put upon an equality with
his right hon. friend and himself. That would be unsatis.
factory ; but what would his right hon. friend and himself
say if this captain of a merchantman had given to him a
large sum of money in hand beyond what they had re-
ceived, if he obtained his epaulettes, sword, cocked hat, and
all the paraphernalia of rank, all the furniture of his cabin?
That was precisely the case of the seamen of the Royal
Navy at the present moment. The bounty of £lO was
nearly half a year's pay. He certainly thought that the
seamen in the Royal Navy had no legal claim to any par-
ticipation in the bounty. But their position was such
that the Government had to consider how they
ought to be treated. He must say for these men that,
so far as he was aware, they had never uttered a word of
complaint. (Hear, hear.) But was that a reason for not
considering their claims ? If the Government thought they
had a just demand for some consideration justice ought to
be done at once and spontaneously, and without waiting for
complaints. (Hew.) He thought it was best that the sea-
men already in the service should have no cause of com-
plaint. Although one half of the bounty was to be given to
men already in the fleet, it was upon certain conditions
that a man who had less than five years to serve should
enter for an extension of that period to five years, and one
month after the receipt of the order in Council on board
each ship should be allowed to the seamen to elect whether
they would accept the gratuity or not upon those terms.
Supposing that those conditions were accepted by a majo-
rity of the men, we should, as it were, have our fleet man-
ned for five years to come. Under these circumstances he
submitted that the Government was justified, upon grounds
of public policy and fair consideration towards the men, in
asking the committee to vote this sum of money. (Hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON was sorry to say that what had
fallen from the noble lord had not affected in the least de
gree the opinion he had expressed upon a former evening.
He had heard nothing which he could call a reason for the
extraordinary course proposed, which was a deviation from
all precedent in the past, and establishing an embarrassing
and inconvenient example for the future. He could only
hope that by the immediate adoption of a better system of
reserves we might escape being placed in the critical posi-
tion in which the late Government were placed when they
were compelled to resort to the system of a bounty. (Hear.)
The hon. member for Sunderland and the noble lord had
both touched upon the general policy of a bounty, but that
question was not now before the committee, and, indeed, it
was settled last week, when the house voted the sum
necessary for that bounty. All he would say as to the
general policy of the bounty was that a great national
object was at stake, and that object was accomplished
by it. (Hear.) The question before the committee
was a different one—whether, because Parliament had voted
£31,000 to get seamen, it was right to spend £lOO,OOO more
in making a voluntary gift to men who were already in the
navy. He thought nothing could justify such wanton ex-
penditure but the most urgent necessity. If there had been
any great exhibition of dissatisfaction in the fleet, that
might have been an excuse for such a proposal, but nothing
of the kind existed upon the noble lord's own admission.
The whole case of the Government turned onthe possibility
that there might be dissatisfaction amongst those men. He
had said the other evening that if there were discontent
upon that ground, it was a case in which the Government
were bound for high reasons of high policy to take a bold
attitude and declare- the demand unreasonable. But, to
the honour of the sailers it must be said, they manifestly
saw the unreasonableness of the demand. The committee
must remember what had been done'for those men recently.
In the supplementary estimates they were now considering,
in the first vote were three items to which he called their
attention. The first was to meet the increase of extra pay
allowed te seamen gunners, £13,000 ; the next was to pro-
vide for good conduct pay to petty officers for badges
awarded to them after promotion to that rank, £7,657 ; and
the third was for gratuitous issues of bedding and clothing
to seamen and boys, £38,000. Thosewerebonuses just given
for the first time, and it was unreasonable that a bounty
which was only granted upon an emergency to induce sailors
to enter the Royal navy who would otherwise have re-
mained in the merchant service should be extended to all
the men who were already in the service. Considering the
increased pay and advantages enjoyed by men engaged for
continuous service, there never was a moment when there
was less excuse for dissatisfaction. Nothing had fallen
from the noble lord which would not have been applicable to
the three former occasions upon which bounties had been
granted, and which were not paid to men already serving.
At some future time, notwithstanding all improvements, a
day might come when the Government of this country
would be embarrassed by this unreasonable proposal
to throw away £lOO,OOO just now, when, as the Chan•
cellor of the Exchequer would probably soon tell the house,
the finances were not in a condition to justify any wanton
or wasteful expenditure of the kind. He (Sir J. Paking-
ton) believed that there was no amount of money which the
house would not vote and their constituents sanction if that
money was to be judiciously and properly expended to
secure our national defences, (Hear.) But, on the other
band, it ought to condemn and would condemn any gratui-
tous, unnecessary expenditure of the kind now proposed,
which was not justified by past precedent nor existing facts,
and which must prove most embarrassing and inconvenient
for future Administrations. However, approval of the pro-
posal was one thing, and opposing it when proposed was
another. (Hear.) Now there might be dissatisfaction, but
two months ago there was none. The late Government
attained their objeet, got the men they wanted, and there
was not a whisper of discontent heard. The noble lord had
talkgd about the policy of treating the British sailor with
gengrosity and so he should be, but the fact was that never
was the sailor treated with so much generosity and consi-
deration as at the present time. (Hear.) Now, for some mo-
tive which had not yet been explained hefound the Govern-
ment at a moment of financial difficulty embarking in this
most unnecessary expenditure. (Hear.) Having protested
against it on these grounds of public policy, he must leave
the Government to take the course they thought proper, for
they had embarrassed the question and placed it on a totally
different footing from that on which it stood before. (Hear.)
Mr. WHITBREAD asked the house to consider, as the
right hon. baronet said the present Government had adopted
an inconvenient precedent, whether it was not the late
Government who adopted an inconvenient precedent in
giving a bounty to seamen on enlisting. (Hear.) The right
hon. baronet referred to the success of the bounty in ob-
taining a certain number of men, and said that a great na-
tional object was to be gained by it. So likewise it might
be said of the recent act of the present Government, that a
great national object was to be gained by it; and he thought
that object would be accomplished in the prevention of any
discontent arising among the seamen, as well as in secur-
ing the services of the flower of the fleet for many years to
come. (Hear.) He believed, notwithstanding what had
fallen from an hon. member, that this gratuity would sa-
tisfy the seamen, for they knew that they had no legal
claim to it, and they would be pleased and gratified by hav,-.
it
ing it offered to them on a principle of justice. (Hoar.)
was maintained by the right hon. baronet that, as no dis-
content had been heard of hitherto, none was ever likely to
arise, even if this gratuity had not been offered ; but dil.
content did not arise in a moment. The men whom ths
question affected lived not like other people in the midst of
society composed of all sorts of professions, but entirely
it
in
the company of persons like themselves. All their inte-
rests and feelings ran in one way ; and was not certain,
when the propriety of the late Government's act was ques-
tioned in such an assembly as that house that it would be
questioned by them ? It was impossible to conceive, un-
less the present propositions were acceded to, that the sea-
men would not think that, having made a bargain with the
country, the country had got the best of it, and was deter-
mined to keep it. (Hear, hear.) He thought it might
safely be maintained that by the step now taken the Ge-
l' ment had not only secured to this country the services
of the most efficient body of men for the fleet for five years
to come, but he had also impressed on the minds of those
men—and -this was a result of far more value than the
money at present asked for—the conviction that they were
dealing with a just and generous country. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER approved of the bounty which had been
given, inasmuch as it had obtained for the fleet a consider-
able number of men ; and what could the country have
done without them ? The noble lord said that ameliora-
tions had taken place in the service. He knew that that
was the case, but he did not thank the Admiralty for it,
because. had it net been for the motions brought forward
by himself, none of these ameliorations would have taken
place. Corporal punishment had been alluded to, but he
did not think that the men generally were averse to that,
as they knew that the discipline of the navy could not
be carried on without it. He should like, however, to see
the men brought to a court-martial before punishment was
inflicted. Such a course would give great satisfaction to
the seamen and and would not destroy the discipline of- the
navy one la. He gave the First Lord of the Admiralty
the greatest credit for offering the bounty, and he did not
see that the present Government or any one else had a
right to find fault with that measure, since it had r p ove d
successful. He believed the men would feel
grateful- for
this gratuity. They knew they were not legally entitled
to it, and they would receive it all the more gratefully on
that account. The late First Lord of the Admiralty said
holed heard of no discontent among the men; but he (Sir
C. Napier) was often atiPortsmouth, and heard loud ex-
pressions of discontent. 'When an experienced sailor got
a gratuity of £5, and a man who had not experience equal
to him got the bounty of £lO, was there not likely to be
discontent? (Hear.) Would the House like to see the
fleet lying at Spithead in the present state of Europe with-
out hands to man it ? (Hear, hear.) The war was said to
be finished, but was it really finished ? (Hear, hear.) In
the present position of affairs no effort should be spared to
place the country in a state of safety. (Hear, hear.) There
was not a man in another place who did not hear with
pleasure the speech of Lord Lyndhurst the other evening.
He should like to see the same spirit that he displayed ex
hibited in that house. Let gentlemen forget for a time that
they had constituents—(a la:e.ghl—eand let them boldly ap-
prove all that could be done for the defence of the country,
so that they might be able to point to the British fleet, and
say " Thereis our fleet, ready to do all it ever did in former
days." (Hear, hear.)
Sir J, GRAHAM—I am very unwilling to prolong this
discussion, as it is desirable that we should get through the
navy estimates as soon as possibls ; but like the hon. and
gallant admiral who has just sat down, I have for a long
period taken a deep interest in the question of manning
the navy, and em therefore desirous of saying a very, few
words. I will not discuss questions that are not before the
committee—gnestions of peace or war, and of the state of
Europe, the subject of corporal punishment, and other topics
that have been introduced. The question of a gratuity con-
sequent on ,the bounty that has been granted is the matter
now in hand, and to that I shall address a few observations.
On a fernier occasion I expressed at some length my decided

opinion against a bounty in time of peace. (Hear.) I then
stated my objections to it in detail, and to those objections
I still adhere. I think they are conclusive against the pre-
cedent set for the first time by the late Board of Admiralty
of offering a botinty in time of peace. I think that that
ought to be the last resource of a Government in the last ex-
tremity of war, or when war is immediately pending (hear),
and I fear that to have had resort to this last resource now
will be found to have established a precedent that will add
to our difficulties in manning the navy in future in time of
peace. (Hear, hear.) But it is needless to argue that ques-
tion at any length on this occasion, because the bounty has
received the sanction of Parliament, and I assume, there.-
fore, that such a bounty was necessary. But if that be the
case, I can have no doubt whatever with respect to the vote
now before the house. (Hear.) I think this gratuity is the
inevitable consequence of thebounty whichwe have granted.
(Hear, hear.) The late First Lord of the Admiralty says
there has been no discontent on the part of the men now
serving in the Royal navy. There are two important occa-
sions on which a bounty has been offered in this Country.
One of these was in 1793, at the commencement of the re-
volutionary war. We had then only about 14,000 seamen,
and just one-half of the amount now offered in time of peace
was offered as bounty by the Government. The effect was
that in six months the number of men rose from 14,000 to
60,000. The other occasion was in 1803, at the commence-
ment of the second French war. A bounty was then offered
exactly half the amount of that now offered in time of peace.
At that time there were about 20,000 men serving
in the navy, and the effect of the bounty in six months
was to raise • the number again to 60,000. (Hear,
hear.) Now what is the case on this occasion? If I mis-
take not, there are 30,000 men now serving; but besides that
a new system has .been adopted—viz., that of continuous
service. (Hear.) I believe that is a system which ought to
be cherished as the foundation of a continual supply, and
as one likely to ensure the service of disciplined men. It is
a system which, either in peace or war, promises to be of
the greatest benefit to the service. (Hear, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman says there is ne discontent; but let my
right hon. friend reflect on what is the inevitable effect of
this bounty. Supposing a ship arrives in port from a
foreign station to be paid off. There are five continuous
service men on board and five non-continuous service men.
The five continuous service men go to the flagship in order
to be employed in some other ship. The non-continuous
service men can the next day take the bounty of £lO and
enter into service in another ship, but the continuous ser-
vice men, though of equal merit in every respect, are bound'
to serve ive years longer without any bounty whatever.
(Hear.) But the advantage to the non-continuous service
man does not end there—he gets a suit of clothes complete,
worth £6, while the continuous service man, gets nothing.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The continuous service man has
more than an equivalent for the loss of bounty.
Sir J. GRAHAM—He will at the end of ten years have
received an equivalent, but it will be doled out to him in
small driblets, at each monthly pay ; while the non-con-
tinuance man gets £lO in hand and £6 worth in clothes.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The non-continuance man will
receive £4O.
Sir J. GRAHAM—At the end of ten years he will have
received £4O I admit; but still, when one man receives £lO
in hand and clothes worth £6, and another gets £4O in
small sums at the expiration of ten years, I appeal to the
house whether there is not likely to be discontent ? (Hear,
hear.) Then the right hon. gentleman says no demand has
been made for this gratuity. But can any doctrine be more
dangerous than that? (Hear, hear.) What was the cause
of the mutiny at the Nore ? The men mado demands, but
no attention was paid them till those demands assumed a
most dangerous and formidable shape. Then concessions
were made in a manner most dangerous and that produced
no salutary effect. (Hear, hear.) It is said that this is
great generosity on the part of the State. Let there be such
generosity, I think the wisest possible course at the pre-
sent moment is to treat our sailors with kindness, gene-
rosity, and consideration. (Cheers.) The hon. and gallant
admiral (Sir C. Napier) takes to himself exclusively the
merit of everything that has been done in favour of the
sailor for the last 30 years—(a laugh)—but, setting aside
that claim, it has been the object of Governments for the
last 30 years to improve the condition of our sailors, and
the concessions of the late Government, founded as they
were uponljustice, seem to me to have been founded upon
sound policy. I think the question is not one of generosity,
of discontent, or contentment, but of justice. The hen.
and gallant admiral referred to a measure which I intro-
duced in 1832, when I had the advantage of the advice of
the late Sir Thomas Hardy, who was better acquainted with
the feelings, the habits, and the prejudices of' sailors, and the
motives by which they are actuated, than any officer I have
ever known. With the view of averting the necessity of im-
pressment I introduced a measure giving her Majesty, at
the commencement of a war, or when war was imminent,
or when invasion was expected, the power of issuing a pro-
clamation calling for the services of seafaring men within a
short period-6 or 12 days—and of offering to all men who
volunteered within that limited time double bounty. By the
advice of Sir T. Hardy I included in that bill a provision
which, after debate, received the sanction of this house, that
a bounty being given to new corners, an equal bounty should
be given to all men then serving. in the fleet. Th 4 hon. and
gallant member for Southwark, in a pamphlet published in
1840, referred to the circumstances which had occurred in
the Mediterranean, and pointed out what appeared to him
the disadvantages of the enactment. I thought, upon ma-
ture consideration, that the objections were well founded,
and in 1853 I introduced a measure materially altering the
act of 1832, and enabling the Queen to issue a proclamation
not to all seafaring men, but to classes between certain ages,
and leaving the question of the gratuity to the advisers of
the Crown. So the law now stands, but lam bound to say
that upon every principle of equity, and upon every consi-
deration of policy, I am convinced in the first place that no
proclamation for compulsory service can be issued without
the concomitant offer of a bounty, though I think the offer
of a bounty ought to be reserved for that great emergency ;
and secondly, that whenever a bounty is offered to new re-
emits a gratuity must be given, not perhaps of an equal
amount, but of a considerable amount, to all men serving in
the fleet. I think you cannot avoid the risk of serious dis-
content without taking that step, and in my opinion it is de-
manded by strict equity. Now it is so, that it is impossible
to man the fleet quickly without a bounty. On this occasion
a bounty has been offeredin a time of peace. It was my duty
to man a fleet in time of war without a bounty, and I suc-
ceeded in doing it—not I, but an officer of the highest merit
who was associated with Sir M. Berkeley—who was
entirely opposed to a bounty, and who, in the extremity of
war and amid all the difficulties of manning the fleet at
that time, steadily resisted the offer of a bounty. Now, the
gallant officer says that the fleet was manned by tinkers,
tailors, and butcher boys. (Hear, hear, from Sir Charles
Napier.) Well, sir, there may have been tinkers, and there
may have been tailors, in every ship on the station, but
there were captains in that fleet who, satisfied with their
crews, were ready to lead their men into any action and
into any danger in which the gallant admiral was prepared
to require their services. (Cheers and a laugh.) I can ap-
peal to Sir Henry Keppel, who commanded the St. Jean
d'Acre—to Admiral Elliot, who commanded a screw line-
of-battle ship, and to the present Secretaryto the Admiralty
(Lord C. Paget), who commanded the Princess Royal, and
I would ask them whether these " tinkers and tailors" were
not men in whom they placed such confidence that they were
ready to encounter any fleet that might have engaged them.
So much; then, for the experience of manning the fleet
without a bounty in time of war. I say again, that in time
of peace I consider the bounty to have been an inexpedient
measure. I hold the gratuity to be an inevitable concomi-
tant to the offer of the bounty ; and if the result should be
to render future Governments more cautious in offering a
bounty in time of peace, with reference to the inevitable -e'x-
penditure occasioned in the shape of a gratuity, Without
which gratuity they would run the risk of creating discon-
tent in the fleet, I for one shall be extremely glad that that
salutary effect has been produced. The bounty having beeno,
given, I cannot object to the necessity and prudence of vot-
ing the sum now demanded.
Sir C. NAPIER—The right hon. baronet says I took
credit for all that has been done for Liu 9 durin., the
tiurghter ) I sayb so
last 30 years. I did no such thing.
distinctly. (A laugh.> it is untrue. rt -
Order.")
the committee which was the reee:l of doing much that
What. I took credit for was obtainin the
in o
appointment of
good fleet.he service. The right
anthneed the He man the fleet I
hob. has latelyhar
0 baronet
l says donehe forin
knoilw.weivefey
Prettily the fleet was manned
was a fleet sent to sea in (Laughter.) There never
'such a disgraceful state as
theoAfad Admiral
saali c eeet
Elliot.. s to Sir H. Keppel and to
well as I do, and every does he not refer to other
Pracef 11
how the ships were manned as
grace to the British navy, shamefully and disofficeray:irci that fleet knows that it was
aln nei l
tTelhietteeetri7gahst a
hon.di s
baronet further that if he will allow me to produce his own
letters, and Sir Maurice Berkeley's private letters to me,
referring to the way in which that fleet was manned, the
•house will be astonished. lam not sure that lam doing
my duty in not producing those letters ; and I ask the right
hon, baronet now to let me come down to. the house with
them on another day, and they will show how the fleet was
manned.

Sir J. GRAHAM—The gallant admiral has already
taken that liberty by producing my private letters.
(Laughter.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Not all of them. Will the right hon.
baronet allow me to produce the rest of the letters ?
Mr. WILLIAMS explained that though the noble lord
the Secretary of the Admiralty commanded the Princess
Royal in the Baltic he was not captain of that ship when the
abominable flogging of which he had complained took place.
The vote, which was the last in the nary estimates, was
then agreed to.

THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. S. HERBERT then rose to bring forward the sup-
plementary estimates for the army. It was not necessary to
go into the whole question of the army estimates, as only
this portion remained to be brought under the con.4ideration
of the house. It had been correctly stated by the right hon.
and gallant gentleman opposite (General Peel) that the
army at home amounted to 110,000 men. Of this number the
embodied militia ranked at 23,000. He agreed with an hon.
member opposite, that in times of peace the embodied militia
ought not to form a portion of our home army, but this
branch of the service was very properly called out to meet the
circumstance of tbenon-return of Indian regiments wh o were
detained in that country owing to the mutiny in the local In-
dian army. Still, when these regiments did return to Europe,
and another battalion from Canada, they would then have
a fair regular army at home; but until the return of these
regiments, it would not be desirable to disembody the
militia. The right hon. gentleman then referred to the
artillery, which was in a most efficient state, and was to be
attributed to the zeal and effective administration of the
right hon. and gallant member opposite (General Peel.)
(Hear, hear.) He would now refer to the camp at Alder-
shot. Previous to the establishment of that camp the
British army was badly off in respect to its commissariat, to
military traine, and also as regarded the medical staff. The
consequence of the establishment of the camp at Aldershot
was that a great improvement had taken place in all these
particulars. From a communication which he had received
in respect to the camp, he found that the engineers were
engaged in making fascines. The artillery were actively
employed in their military duties. Slaughter-houses were
established, and in fact, all the business of the camp, as in
times of war, was carried out with promptitude and effi-
ciency. He had also to observe that crime had greatly di-
minished in the camp within the last three months. De-
sertion had also diminished, and he had to add that The
health of the army in the camp was very good. The next
vote would have relation to wages, but under this head
'would be included an amount for shot and shells, and other
materials for our ships and fortifications at Malta and Gib-
raltar, and other places. Perhaps the house would like to
know the position we were in with respect to the manufac-
ture of our improved guns. He had to state that at the end
of the year 100 guns would be ready, and 200 additional
would be completed by the end of the financial year, and
after that time the delivery of these guns would be in
the same ratio every year. No. 9 vote would have relation
to the expense of clothing the militia. The vote No. 11,
which related to warlike stores, included many heavy
items, amongst which Nfoillci be £225,000 for miscel-
laneous stores. Then came a larger and important vote,
namely, ' that . relating, to fortifications. The right
honourable gentleman then referred to the forts at Devon-
port, Alderney, Portsmouth, and Portland, and said it
was desirable that all the forts at these several places
should be completed as rapidly as possible. At Portland
they had the finest harbour in the world, but which was