The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-12 00:00:00

been continued, and some completed, and I think it would
be much more satisfactory to know what has been the ac-
tual addition to the navy during the year. (Hear, hear.)
In former years it was pointed out that our navy was defi-
cient, especially iu frigates, as compared with the force of
other countries. The noble lord's statement will scarcely
enlighten the public as to the addition made to that class
of vessels.

Lord C. PAGET—It is given in the returns now on the
table.

Sir J. PAKINGTON—I was much gratified with that
part of the noble lord's statement in which he announced
the intention of the Admiralty on the subject of the increase
of the dockyard accommodation at Chatham. During the
short time that I had the honour to be at the head of the
Board of Admiralty there was no subject which occupied
more of our attention; and the more we considered it the
more we approached to that decision to which the present
board has arrived with respect to Chathatn being the place
at which it was desirable the addition should be made.
(Hear.) I would here close the few remarks that I have
ventured to address the house, were it not that I feel ob-
liged to allude to another part of the subject, which I con-
fess I cannot approach without great hesitation and doubt,
but which, at the same time, I consider perhaps the most
important point of all. I mean the present state of disci-
pline in the navy. Again I say that I approach this point
with a sense of its delicacy and difficulty ; but I am so
strongly impressed with its overwhelming importance and
so struck with statements that have reached me, and which
it is impossible for me not to believe, that I cannot help
calling the noble lord's attention to it. I hope my noble
friend will believe me when I say that I do so in no party
spirit, but through a sincere sense of duty ; because I be-
lieve that it is essential to our best interests that everything
should be done to make this great arm of our war service
as efficient as possible in all respects. (Hear.) On a former
occasion, in reply to an observation made by an hon. mem-
ber, the hon. gentleman opposite, who is one of the Lords
of the Admiralty (Mr. Whitbread), gave it as his opinion
that as soon as certain bounty men were got rid of the state
of discipline would be satisfactory. The noble lord (Lord
C. Paget) had adverted to this matter again this evening in
terms which I heard with great satisfaction ; for of course
in my noble friend's position his sources of information are
better than those at the command of private members.
That being so, I am not to be understood as impeaching the
assertions of the hon. gentleman or the noble lord ; but I
am bound to say that the statements which have reached
me are of such a character I hat I cannot help fearing that
the officials of the Admiralty may have been in some degree
misled. The public are already excited and alarmed, and I
hope the Admiralty may be able to make a statement that
will allay the uneasiness on the subject. (Hear.) Palpable
facts are within the knowledge of all who read the news-
papers. Every one has heard of the unhappy mutiny which
occurred about a year ago at the paying off of the Princess
Royal, and that was followed shortly afterwards by the
mutiny on board the Liffey, in the harbour of Portland. If
these were isolated cases they might not be regarded in so
serious a light, but we have all read in the newspapers that
a squadron of ships of the Royal Navy could not proceed to
North America to accompany the heir to the British Crown
to that part of her Majesty's dominions without losing by
desertion a considerable portion of the crews. (Hear.) If
report be true, those ships were deterred from going to the
port of New York lest further desertions might take place.
Some time ago I moved for a return of desertions ; and from
the paper laid on the table it appears that in 1858 the num-
ber was 1,811; in 1859 1,873 ; while for the nine months of
1860 it was 2,322, showing a very great increase. (Hear.)
I have here letters which have been written by officers in
command of our ships in different parts of the world. I
think I had better abstain from reading them—(hear)--but
the statements which they make on the subject of desertions
—and especially deset lions in the Mediterranean—are very
distressing. As to the appointment of Admiral Martin to
the command of the Mediterranean squadron, I believe it
would have been impossible for the noble duke at the head
of the Admiralty to select an officer more likely to restore
good discipline. (Hear.) But the state of discipline in our
ships has become a subject of comment not only in this but
in other countries. I have in my hand the translation of a
pamphlet entitled " Reflections on the Navy," and written
by a Capitaine de Fregate—Capitaine L. Foillouy. Refer-
ring to the various measures adopted in this country from
time to time during a considerable period for alterations in
our rules as regards the sailors aboard men-of-war, the
writer observes:—

" Experience will show what degree of success may attend
these measures, directed, be it said, by an imperious neces-
sity ; but it is already easy to perceive that granting certain
concessions to the habits and tastes of English seamen has
sensibly weakened discipline and lowered the bearing of the
crews cn board their ships."
I have conversed lately with several distinguished naval
officers who have had an opportunity of watching the dis-
cipline on board ships of war, and they have assured me
that the statements which I have received are not exag-
gerated. Some of those officers are now unemployed, but
others are in command of ships. (Hear, bear.) The noble
lord and the hon. gentleman told us that the evil
was to be attributed to the inferior sailors whom the high
bounty offered by the late Board had induced to enter the
service. If that be so, as the bounty has been lowered, the
cause may be removed ; but I find that many attributed the
deterioration of the discipline to this fact—that, rightly or
wrongly, there does exist on the part of the officers in the
British naval service a dread that if they resort to :hose
measures that often are necessary to maintain discipline on
board a ship they would not be supported by the Board of
Admiralty. If this be a true statement it is one that affects
not the present Board of Admiralty only, but also those
that have preceded it. I bring it forward in the hope that
the noble lord will turn his attention to it, and be able
to diminish the public anxiety on the subject. I cannot
resist the conclusion that some such feeling as I have re-
ferred to exists; and I think it is of tkse highest importance
that no pains should be spared to bring the crews of our
ships back to that high state of discipline that used to dis-
tinguish them, and which is so essential to the security of
the country. (Hear.) The noble lord adverted to the state-
ment of my hon. and gallant friend (Sir J. Elphinstone),
that dissatisfaction exists among the officers of the navy,
and expressed his opinion that no feeling of the kind exists
to any such extent as would prevent them doing their duty
to the country. In that opinion I cordially agree with the
noble lord ; and I am sure that nothing would give my hon.
and gallant friend greater pain than to have it supposed
that anything he said implied a doubt as to the officers of
the navy doing their duty to their country. (Hear.) It
cannot be denied, however, that there are serious doubts as
to the condition of the crews, and to that subject I earnestly
hope the attention of the Admiralty will be directed.
Mr. BAXTER had listened with great pleasure to the
statement of the noble lord, but ho nevertheless was of
opinion that there ought to have been a still greater reduc-
tion of the navy estimates. He held that this country
ought to have a navy superior to that of any other maritime
State. To lose our maritime supremacy would be poor
economy; but at the same time it was impossible not to
see that our naval expenditure was increasing to an extent
far greater than the necessities of the country required.
During the last four years the navy estimates had increased
from £9,000,000 to £12,000,000. On a comparison with
the French navy it was found that the preponderance of
vessels was immensely on our side, and we were at this mo-
ment expending 30 per cent. more in naval preparations
than the two greatest maritime nations combined. He had
understood the noble lord the Secretary to the Admiralty to
say on a former occasion that France had 15 iron-cased
vessels approaching completion, but to-night he had stated
that four were block ships and four were gunboats.
Lord C. PAGE 12—Five gunboats and ten large ships.
Mr. BAXTER—That was four block ships and six large
ships, which tallied with the statement of the hon. member
for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay). lie had last year made in-
quiries and derived information from sources quite distinct
from those to which the hon. member for Sunderland had
access, but the results were nearly the same. He found
that the French had La Gloire afloat, another was to be
completed in the present year, and the Magenta and Sol-
ferino were expected to be launched in the course of 1862.
In confirmation of what had been said of the little ac-
tivity that prevailed in the French dockyards he referred to
the report of a gentleman who had been sent out by the
Scotsman newspaper. He reported that at Cherbourg
there w as general tranquillity, that there was but one large
-ship in the harbour, the Arcole ; one frigate was building,
and La Normandie was receiving her plates. At Brest
there were but three ships. At Lorient there were four
frigates; at Roc hefort only four small brigs, a steam tran-
sport, and a frigate in course of construction. At Toulon
there were only two large vessels building, ono the Intre-
pid°, sister ship to La Gloire, approaching completion.
There were also a number of small transports, but there.
were not 50 men at work in the large forging heti' seNow
with respect to the comparative number of men. in the
French and English navies, he had made inquiries, and he
found that last year there were in the French Imperial navy
30,588 men and boys. Parliament had last year voted for
the English navy 84,000 men and boys, but it now appeared
that only 81,000 had been employed. The fact was, how-
ever, that the number voted, 84,000, was greater than all
the seamen in the merchant service of France. It might be
asked how could that be, seeing that in 1860 there were
156,000 names upon the maritime inscription of France ;
but he had made inquiries, and found that that number not
only included all the men and boys in the Imperial navy
and merchant service, but also ail the workmen in the dock-
yards, all the fishermen on the coasts, and all the boatmen
upon the navigable rivers. Indeed, statistics clearly showed
that the mercantile marine of Frande was in a state of deca-
dence, for in 1859 the French had 42,000 tons less of ship-
ping than they possessed in 1857. Tn order to prove still
more the fact of the decadence of the French mercantile
marine, he would refer to returns made to that house, which
showed that the total value of French goods imported into
this country was 113,271,890. In 1859 the value of French
goods imported into this country exceeded £16,000,000,
being an increase of £3,598,000. There was, however, a
great decrease in the tonnage of French vessels. In 1858
the number of French ships entering our ports was 7,010,
while, in 1859, they had fallen off to 5,946. There was, in
fact, a steady progress downward in the mercantile power
of France. He believed the French had laid down no great
wooden ship, whether line-of-battle ships or frigates, since
18.56. (Lord Palmerston.—They launched one the other day.) He had said they had not laid one down since 1856, 1

and he believed he was correct. He did not object to build-
ing a few Warriors and Black Princes, but it was impolitic
to persist in building so large a number of ships. The diffi-
culty of manning the navy was matter of general complaint,
and that was an additional reason for not going on build-
ing more ships. He had risen to make these remarks in no
unfriendly spirit to the Government, but, believing that
their Naval Estimates had been based on an exaggerated
notion both of the naval preparation and naval strength of
France, he had, he thought, given the committee reasons
for reducing tqem. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that this
extravagant fit of the nation would soon be over, for the
house and the Government were not alone to blame. Per-
haps, sooner than they might expect hon. members would
be called to account and blamed by their constituents for
this enormous, unwise, and unnecessary expenditure.
(Hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK could not agree with his right hon.
friend (Sir J. Pakington) in his statement that the disci•
pline of the navy was in a very bad state. He did not pre-
tend to say it was either what it was or what it ought to be.
(Hear, hear.) It was susceptible, no doubt, of great im-
provement, but neither was it, according to all the
information he could obtain, in so bad a state as
has been described by his right hon friend. The
right hon. baronet ascribed the deteriorated condition
of the discipline of the navy to successive Boards of Admi-
ralty. That might be true to a certain extent, but the real
culprits were those whom he had now the honour of addres-
sing—the members of the House of Commons. The falling
off in the discipline of the navy had been owing to claptrap
harangues in that house and to unmeaning speeches about
flogging. It was a most painful duty to perform when com-
manders in the navy felt themselves obliged to inflict that
punishment ; but it should be borne in mind that flogging
was advocated by all the best seamen, though they were
themselves liable to the punishment ; and that in the muti-
nies at the Nore and at Spithead, when the fleet was under
the command of the men, the amount of flogging was
greater than at any other period. The hon. member, who
last spoke, complained of the increase in the British navy
within the last four years. That, however, was only owing
to the increase of the French navy, and to the necessity
thus occcasioned for maintaining the relative position and
strength of this country. The hon. member described the
invasion panic as a mere delusion. If it wore, it was one
in which at any rate nineteen-twentieths of the people of
this country participated. The hon. member also talked of
the cost of the French navy, but how was it possible for the
hon. member to vouch for the accuracy of the figures he
quoted with regard to a country circumstanced like France?
The expenditure on the French navy might be £15,000,000
for aught the hon. member know to the contrary. This
country required a great navy on account of its distant colo-
nies and extensive commerce ; but what could the French
want a navy for, except at some time or other for the pur-
pose of invading this country ? In reference to what had
fallen from the noble Secretary to the Admiralty he wished
to call attention to the subject of the naval coast volunteers.
It had been suggested that some small vessels should be as-
signed to those men to enable them to train on board for a
certain number of days during summer. This involved an
important consideration ; for it appeared to be decided
that the Volunteer force Was to be a cheap means of
defence: to this country, and therefore too much encou-
rangement could not be offered to any description of Volun-
teers. He hoped his noble friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
would be good enough to state to the house on what ground
it had been decided to build the iron frigates wall-sided in-
stead of at an angle, which they were informed would
render them practically impervious to shot ; also, when it
was intended to send the Warrior to sea, in order that her
capabilities might be test ed ; and whether opinions had not
been expressed by some competent judges unfavourable to
the lines on which the Warrior had been built, and par-
ticularly as to the amount of her displacement.
Sir M. SEYMOUR regretted that the Naval Estimates
were so large in amount, but did not believe they exceeded
the amount reasonably required for the navy. Expendi-
ture in former years had been allowed to fall so low that a
very large outlay was required to prepare our fleet for the
possibility of war; and political considerations required
that especially at present we should have a formidable force
afloat. It was true the commercial marine of France had
considerably diminished of late years, but every man had
been more or less trained to service on board ships of war
and was ready to serve when required; so that at any
moment the naval power of France was capable of large
development. Allusion had been in the course of the dis-
cussion made to the discipline of the navy, and he, for one,
while regretting that there should be any cause of com-
plaint on that score, found -it impossible to say to what the
incidental irregularities which had been commented on
were to be attributed. They might be owing to the fact
that a large number of men were on board vessels lying a
good deal in harbour, and to the degree of indulgence
which was allowed, but at all events he felt assured they
were not of such a nature as to prevent our navy from
doing its duty with accustomed loyalty and gallantry
whenever occasion arose.

Mr. LIDDELL expressed a hope that the statements
which had been made by the hon. member for Montrose
would not be allowed to pass unnoticed by the Government.
Indeed, it was, he thought, the bounden duty of Ministers
to reply to them, and, if possible, to show why the naval
estimates ought not to be reduced. (Hear, hear.) Passing
from that subject to what had fallen from the noble lord the
Secretary for the Admiralty, in the course of his observa-
tions in introducing the estimates, he felt called upon to
express his satisfaction that officers of the merchant service
were to be permitted to enrol themselves among the mem-
bers of the naval reserve, inasmuch as the two services
would thus be brought together in a manner which could
not fail to be productive of the greatest advantage. But
while he had listened with pleasure to the statement to that
effect which had been made, he was sorry to find that no
notice had been taken of that which constituted the gist of
the recommendations of the Royal Commission, the estab-
lishment of training ships at some of our chief ports. They
were told that 2,000 boys were now being trained in the
training ships at Portsmouth and Plymouth, and yet the
noble lord spoke of turning out 2,900 per annum. Where
were the other 900 boys to be trained ? [Lord C. Paget—
In receiving-ships, flagships, and the fleet generally.] Our
mercantile marine was not now in a position to supply the
proportion of seamen for which we formerly looked from
that source ; for while, during the last 10 years, our ton-
nage had increased 33 per cent., our seamen had only in-
creased 10 per cent.
Mr. LINDSAY said that as to the number of ships of
war owned by England and France respectively there did
not appear to be any difference between himself and the
noble lord ; but the public had a vague impression that
France meant mischief to England (hear), and was prepar-
ing vast armaments for the purpose of invading this coun-
try. That impression was formed upon information which
came from the Treasury Bench. What were the facts as to
the armaments of France ? Of efficient war-steamers
France had 75, while England had 140. In fact, England
had a larger number of efficient steamvessels not only than
France, but than all other countries in the world. (Hear,
hear.) It had been said that the whole seafaring popula-
tion of France, numbering some 156,000 men, was at the
disposal of the Minister of Marine ; but it would be found
that, after deducting dockyard labourers and " novices,"
there were not 80,000 seamen among the whole. We had
at that moment, in a time of peace, at least as many men as
France could muster even with her reserve, and in the hour
of danger three times as many would be at our command.
(Hear.) In regard to frigates, taking into account the
numbers and character of the vessels, we were decidedly
superior to France. The same remark might be made as to
iron ships. Of the 15 which France was said to have five
were gunboats carrying two guns, and four block ships,
which were, in many respects, unfit for sea. Only one of
the other six was ready, and before they were all completed
which could not be in less than two years, we should have
seven fit for sea. (Hear.) The Secretary to the Admiralty
had admitted that the Warrior was double the size of La
Gloire and able to carry double the weight of metal. He
believed the Black Prince was not inferior to the Warrior.
It followed that the two iron-cased vessels which we had
already launched would be a match for four ships like La
Gloire. We had, therefore, nothing to fear from the French
as far as iron-cased vessels were concerned. He had stated
what he believed to be the facts of the case. It was possible
that his information might be erroneous, but in that case the
Government ought to lay the truth before the committee.

Lord C. PAGET took it for granted that they were all de-
sirous of arriving at the truth. The Government had no
wish to overstate the naval resources of France, or to un-
derstate those of England. All the apparent discrepancies
arose from the different views which hon. gentlemen took
of naval matters. Some supposed that a ship of 6,000 tons
should always be able to capture two ships of 3,000 tons ;
others, with more reason, thought that two ships of 3,000
tons were more formidable as warlike engines than one
ship of 6,000 tons. (Hear, hear.) Ho admitted that our
iron-cased vessels were much finer than those which had
been built abroad ; but the difference between the navies
of England and France was not so great as some hon. gentle-
men seemed to imagine. We had 53 screw line-of-battle
ships afloat and 14 building and converting, making a
total of 67. The French had 35 afloat and two build-
ing, making a total of 37. 'We had 31 screw
and nine paddle 'frigates afloat and 12
making a total of 52. The French had 21 screw and 18
paddle frigates afloat and eight building, making a total of
47. Of the smaller class of steamships, the French had
266 afloat and 61 building, making a total of 327;
while we had 505 afloat and 57 building, making a total
of 562. It thus appeared that we were in a very satisfac-
tory condition, and it was for that reason that the Govern-
ment had thought it incumbent on them to reduce the
shipbuilding expenditure for the coming year. The dock-
yards had been reduced to their normal state, and the only
reason \Thy the reduction had not been carried
nth ituther
was that the Government wished to replenish the stock of
timber and stores, in order to be ready for any emergenoy.
He had already stated the facts with respect to the French
iron-cased ships. He believed that the two largest—the
Solferino and the Magenta—would be ready to be launched
in a very short period, and might be sent to sea within a
few months. Of the four frigates one was already at sea,
and the others were almost ready to be Lunched. The four
floating batteries, a powerful class of vessels, were also in
an advanced state, and might be sent to sea in the course of
the present summer. These vessels, according to the state-