The Sun.
London, England, 1861-03-08 00:00:00

(Hear, hear.) Well, it is just that spirit of fanaticism the
Italians are trying to annihilate. (Hear, hear.) What
recent decrees, I ask, have most excited the admiration and
applause of the people of Italy ? The decrees that have
broken up the monastic institutions and nunneries. (Hear,
hear.) Those institutions are unserviceable to civil society,
and can only exist upon its destruction, or upon the want of
it. (Cheers.) Those decrees have been received by the
people of Southern Italy with the greatest applause. But I
admit there is a difficulty in the consideration of this Italian
question—a difficulty that may cause serious inconvenience
before it is settled. That difficulty is not at Gaeta; that
fortress has fallen, and South Italy is entirely free. I ad-
mire the chivalrous conduct of Francis 11. in the last days
of his political existence, or rather of his political agony ; for
what agony can be greater to a king than to be despised by his
subjects ? (Hear.) I admire the spirit the King of Naples
showed at the last, and I only regret he did not give to his
people the benefit of the better part of his character at an
earlier periol. But Gaeta has fallen, and the Italian diffi-
culty isnot there ; nor is it at Venice. (Hear, hear.) Prince
Napoleon in his speech treated the question of Venice in a re-
markable manner. (Hear.) What do we see at Venice? Venice
is not Austrian—it is certainly Italian; but it is trampled
under foot by Austria, and held in subjection by 10,000
bayonets, by a race foreign to Italy in language, sympathies,
and feelings. (Hear, hear.) Do not tell me that this state
of things can last. (Cheers.) Venice may be trodden
down and ground into the dust, but they cannot change
her from what she is. Venice is Italian 1
" States fall, arts fade, but nature doth not die;
Nor yet forget how Venice once was dear,
The pleasant place of all festivity,
The revel of the earth, the masque of Italy 1"
(Cheers.) That is what Venice was; what is she now?
(Hear, hear.) See her "in her voiceless woe ; see her
palaces crumbling into ruin 1 For in Venice there are none
of those marks of improvement which the hon. gentleman
opposite says he saw in the states of the Pope. No ; you
will find in Venice a melancholy and trzstesse most painful
to observe. (Hear, hear.) But, yet, what I have often told
Italians is this,—"Wait ! Do not be in a hurry to take
Venice, and the necessities of Austria and the public
opinion of Europe will give you Venice without fighting or
bloodshed." (Hear.) I have heard of offers to purchase it.
But with the force of 200,000 men in and around Venice, I
do not believe the condition of the finances of Austria will
permit her to hold it long. Therefore the chief Italian
difficulty is not at Gaeta, nor at Venice, nor at Messina.
It is true Messina still holds out. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman opposite appears t 3 derive some satisfaction from
that circumstance, but I think General Fergola, who has
disregarded the summons of General Cialdini, had better
accept it with honour, whilelie can do so with dignity. It
is impossible that Messina can hold out when the heights
behind the town are in the hands of a general like Cialdini.
The chief difficulty of Italy is at Rome. (Hear, hear.)
Rome is the real difficulty and the obstacle to the consoli-
dation of Italy. And I ask the hon. gentlemen opposite,
do they know what is the present condition of Rome P The
Popes, not satisfied with being priests, have resolved to be
kings. But that union of temporal and spiritual power,
which once constituted the strength of the Papacy,
has become the cause of its weakness. Enlightened
Roman Catholics, from the time of Dante to the present

day, have condemned and denounced the temporal power
of the Pope. It was remarked to me by a learned
Italian, that if the Pope determined to retain
the two powers he would lose them both. What is the
condition of the city of Rome ? For 11 years it has been
in the hands of the French ; for 11 years French bayonets
have supported the Papacy. The hon. member for Dun-
dalk gays that if the Sardinian soldiers were taken away
from the South of Italy the people would welcome back
the King of Naples, and carry in Francis 11. and his
family on their shoulders. I do not know what the con-
sequence would be if the Sardinian troops were withdrawn
from the territory of Naples, but this, I know, that if the
French troops were to leave Rome an outburst of popular
indignation would sweep away the Pope and the whole
college of Cardinals together. (Hear, hear.) The tem-
poral power of the Pope has been defended in this House.
'We are told that we exaggerate the facts stated against it,
and that the Roman States are better governed than any
other part of Italy. But how is it that all Italian feeling
and sympathy are opposed to that temporal power? This
is the reason; the Papacy as it exists in Italy is an insti-
tution of the middle ages, and, like the monastic institu-
tions and others, must yield to the course of time and the
progress of events. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman
opposite smiles; but I think we may well smile with pity
and contempt when we listeri, as I have done, to assertions
a the doctrine—the blasphemous and damnable doctrine,
as the Church of England calls it—that gives the Pope
the power to absolve the people of other States from the
oath of allegiance to their Sovereigns. (Cheers.) That
power was attempted to exercise against Victor Em-
manuel. The thunders of the Vatican were prepared ;
why were !hey not launched ? Why was not the threat
put into execution ? Because they would have roused the
execration of all Italy, and have fallen without effect on
the head of that sovereign. (Cheers.) Talk about eccle•
siastical government I Why the bigotry of the Church of
Rome cannot be disputed. For centuries it has condemned
not only the writings but the liberties and lives of thou-
sands of men of literature and science. (Hear.) It has
done it from the time of Galileo to the present. (Hear,
bear.) We need not be surprised, therefore, if in the moment
of the triumph of the one and the difficulty of the other
there is so littlasympathy between the people of Itome and
the Government. (Hear, hear.) If, in the course of my
observations on these Italian questions I have not alluded
to my own experience, perhaps the House will allow me
to do so on the subject of the bigotry of the Church of
Rome. (hear, hear.) It was only the other day, when tra-
velling through the South of Spain, that I was in commu-
nication with two men who have been giving proof of their
truth and honesty by suffering from their faith. One of
them had been committed to prison for 11 years, and the
other was on the point a:: being adjudged the same punish-
ment. Their names aro worthy,of being recorded, and there-
fore I shall give them—they are Alhamit and Matamorom.
Those two men I saw myself, ana eney were rue victims of
the bigotry of the Court and in paw of the priesecralt.
Their sole fault was that they had in their possession a
copy of the Holy Scriptures. (Hear, hear.) There is the
bigotry of the Church of Rome! (Hear, hear.) My heart
bled for Matamoros. lie was in a prison not larger than a
few feet square. When I saw hint he was suffering, but he
was courageous. When I told him to remain firm in the
faith which he had adopted, ho said he looked to this free
country, England, for that sympathy which would allevi-
ate his sufferings. (Hear.) This bigotry of the Church of
Rome has bee:fn. generations. It has interfered with the
emancipation of the human mind by choking and stopping
ue the avenues of human knowledge. It is time that those
anomalies should cease. (Hear.) I believe that the Reforma-
tion has commenced in Italy. (Hear.) I believe that the
desire for civil liberty in that country is united with a strong
desire for religious freedom and that that which has already
been accomplished in Germany, in England, and in Scot-
land, has been commenced in Italy. (Cheers ) I say that the
Reformation is growing apace in Italy, in spite of the Court
of Rome, and in spite of the bishops. This accounts for
the wish of the Church of Rome to stop the march of
Italian revolution which it sees is every day sapping the
:foundation of priestcraft and• priestly intolerance. But,
sir, the great movement has gone on, and I may be per-
mitted to express my hope that that' system of progress
eiNieh checks superstition and religious intolerance may
take still deeper root in the minds and affections of the peo-
ple, arid that their country may enjoy the full blessings of
universe? liberty. (Cheers.) These are my feelings on
Italy. I believe I have not exaggerated. I believe I have
spoken the tout, with regard to the bigotry of the Church
of Rome and the intolerance of its conduct; end I believe
the Italians will do well to separate themselves from that
conduct, and turn front idle tales to the blessings of re-
ligions liberty. (Hear, heer.) Gentlemen opposite accuse
the policy of the noble lord the Foreign Secretary ; but I
assert that the noble lord could not have acted otherwise
than on a policy of non-intervention, coupled with the ex •
pression of those sentiments to which 1 have before referred
(Hear, hear.) The Italian people will be worthy of our
sympathy! and encouragement so long as they show that
prudence, discretion, and dignity which they have shown
from the commencement of their struggle to procure that
liberty which was so long forbidden them. (Cheers.) In
thanking the house for the kindness with which they have
listened to the few observations that I have addressed them,
I would ask them to let the question itself plead my apology
for any warmth which may have characterised those re-
marks. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") And, in conclaeion, the
best hope I can utter—the best wish I can entertain—is one
-which is echoed by thousands and ten thousands of people.
to-day, and which is felt, almost invariably, by the people
of this country,—it is that the present occasion of revolu-
tion may not close without affording to Europe and the
civilized world the glorious spectacle of a united and con-
tented Italy, with a reformed and invigorated priesthood.
(Loud cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—My hon.
friend who has just sat down has addressed the house with
his usual force and ability. (Hear, hear.) He has given us
a just and eloquent description of the position of the King
of Sardinia ; and he has also declared, and declared with
truth, that my noble friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
has, in regard to the Italian question, pursued an admirable
policy—a policy than which none other would have been
freely tolerated by the people of England. (Hear, hear.)
If this debate had been confined to criticisms of the King of
Sardinia, or if it concerned only the policy of my noble
. '

friend, r, for one, should have remained silent, because I
think that policy is one which commands approval far be-
yond the limits of party connexion—far beyond the walls of
this house—far beyond class or interest. (Hear.) I be-
lieve it is stamped with approval throughout the body of the
people of England, from the greatest to the least. (Hear.)
But my hon. friend the member for Dundalk (Sir G. Bow-
yer) following in some degree the line marked out by the
hon. member for the King's County, but likewise extend-
ing the subject of debate, has raised a great issue; for he
bold solemn language. He told us in terms of, I have no
doubt, great sincerity that we ought to lament our foreign
policy—that it was founded on injustice and could not
prosper, and that the cause which we favoured in Italy
was the persecution of righteous Governments. He rang
the changes on the law of nations, public right, established
.authority, and legitimate possession. These phrases came
round in our ears almost likethe chimes of the clock which
wit had in this neighbourhood last year; but I must say
that they did not strike on my ears quite so musically.
(Laughter.) Those events which we and the people of
England look to with a mixture of wonder, astonishment,
and admiration, are, according to him, nothing but the
result of unworthy intrigues carried on by an unprin-
.eviP,l,ed, King and a cunning Minister; and the issue
...",.`cannho has raised is that the people of Italy were
"6",venzpressed people, but a people attach' d to their
and the r 0
(Hear, bear.) The honourable member
, ""8. Who think with him tell us that there existed
muner those uovern
system, alwaysments a beneficent and benignant
th Wisely administered, and in respect of that
IG overnwent
which
thf,
solemn
sanctionhiof is, above all others, solemn, for it has
ready to assure us that religion,it members of the house are
religion itself. (near,
„twat; carried on in the spirit of that
a laugh.) I wish to try it
The face of this house, an‘crib
oleo3.,:eference to unquestionable
sources, whether those allegations of the hon. gentleman
(Sir G. Bowyer) are true. sure that the hon. member
ht/Dself believes them to be true, nlcl that he also believes
however,om afraid it
be has them from the best source's.
that he has not had the:ft.
will be fog that those sources.
but from the e mns which impure sources of those fa t*
have
made it their unholy work to trample down
, tgiberty and happiness of the It alien people. (um, ' ) hear.,
?;‘;vii'lltris the case of Naples, as so well put by my
/0 uthw irk in that speech ""
fri.td tim.,?4,iszp4‘ which
°
A rkt,l roes eI to Ili lic-„t• cr t a spcoeh wartned by t.
• . clzractet Lai, by well ei;i4blidhcc,

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