The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-26 00:00:00

THE SETN,' LONDON, FRIDAY EV_ENING, % JULY 26, 1861.

hon, member was in a more fortunate position than Mri
Adam, who was stopped in the middle of a word. The
hon. member would be able to resume at " eircumspice" in

the evening, after the conclusion of the India business.
The sitting was then at four o'clock suspended.
The house resumed at six o'clock.
ADMIRALTY IRON.
Mr. HENNESSY asked the junior Lord of the Admiralty
whether the iron alluded to by him, on the 21st of June
last, respecting the steamship Hibernia, was the same as
the iron-cased ship Defence was being constructed of, and
which was manufactured for Messrs. Palmer by Messrs.

Beale and Co., of Rotherham, as shown in Parliamentary
Paper No. 347 of the present session.
Mr. WHITBREAD said it was the same, having been
tested and found to be the best suited for the purpose. He

could not answer the latter part of the question.
TROOPS IN CHINA.
Col. SYKES asked the Under Secretary of State for Wax
whether troops ordered home from North China had beeii
detained by the British Minister; if so, for what time were
they to be detained; and whether the troops at Tien-tsix I
were supplied with fresh water by Coolie labour ?
Mr. BARING said that one regiment, and one troop of
Fane's Horse had been left at Tien-tsin. He could not say
in what way the troops were supplied with fresh water.

INDIAN BUDGET.
Mr. ADAM asked the Secretary of State for India when
the return with reference to stipendiary native princes I
India, for which an address was moved as unopposed on the
2d of May last, would be laid upon the table of the house ?
Also whether Mr. Laing's speech on the finances of Indta
would be laid on the table ?

Sir C. WOOD could not say when the address would be
laid on the table. Mr. Laing's speech, being an offici3.l
document, could not be furnished. -

THAMES EMBANKMENT.
Sir J. SHELLEY asked the First Commissioner of Wort; s
whether the report that the royal commission on the Thame s
embankment having been signed, it was his intention to place
that report forthwith on the table of the house, with the

protest of any commissioners against the same?
Mr. COWPER, said that the report had been received sal
the Office of Works, and would be laid on the table thni

evening. No doubt the ordinary course would be followeil
and the commissioners would append to the report the ret
sons given by one member for net agreeing to that report.
COURTS OF LAW BILL.

Sir J. GRAHAM wished to know what were the inter •
tions of Government with respect to the above bill ?
Mr. COWPER said that so great was the desire on the
part of the legal profession, to have this bill passed that he
should be most unwilling to abandon it. He would not,
however, bring it on when there was not opportunity iFor
ample discussion. He should not attempt to bring it on aCer
eleven o'clock that evening, but even if he should not have
the opportunity of bringing it forward then, he still clung
to the hope that the session might last long enough—(a
laugh)—to allow of its being passed.

arose from the adoption of that course which could not but be
lamented. At the same time the conduct of the Indian

government was not in any way reprehensible. It was their
duty to hold the scales of justice as impartially as they
could between the planters and ryots, and to see that the
ryots did not suffer from oppression, and the planters from
violence. The planters had lately taken a step which, how-
ever justified by law, was not one which could be approved
when viewed as a matter of prudence. They had of course

a right to raise their rents, but that had been done to an
extent which did not seem to b e wise, considering the excited

state of the population. He regretted to add that that bad
feeling had been aggravated by an occurrence to which his
attention was some time ago called—the circulation, under

an official frank, of a translation of a Bengal play. That
most improper act on the part of the official authorities had
been disclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal,
who had written a despatch in which he said that- it had
been done without his knowledge, and that when it was

brought to his notice he expressed his strong disapproba-
tion of it. Unfortunately, however, it had given rise
to the unfounded suspicion that the Government had been a

party to the proceeding. As he bad observed already, the
Government should be entirely impartial between planter

and ryot, and he should be extremely sorry if by word or
act the Government should appear to aggravate the bad

feeling which already existed. The next point was one which
was always of importance to this country, but at the present
moment vitally so—he meant the cultivation of cotton in
India. Different opinions were entertained as to the capa-

bility of India to produce cotton in quantity and quality
adequate to supply the British manufactures, but he was
convinced, in opposition to a very high authority, that if
proper means were taken India might be made a source of
supply to such an extent as to render this country in a great
measure independent of America. It was probable that the
supply of cotton from India this year would be very much in
excess of what it had ever been before. Upwards of 620,000
bales had already been shit ped from India to this country,
and 300,000 or 400,000 more were likely to come in the course
of the year, so that the supply would be 320,000 more than
usual. (Hear.) He trusted that the increase in the price of
cotton would greatly extend its cultivation in India, and that
the natives would improve in the processes of picking and
cleaning which they had hitherto so much neglected. The
Indian Government had gone to great pains and expense
to ascertain if it could be grown in that country, and he did
think it was well worth the attention of those persons in
England who were interested in the effort, to use their ex-
ertions in contributing to its successful result. He was
happy to say that a Mr. Heywood had been deputed by
all parties interested at home in the production of cotton in
India to go out there, and the Government had sanctioned
his being accompanied by Dr. Forbes, the gentleman best
acquainted with the cultivation of cotton in the
different districts of India. He hoped that those
gentlemen would be able to lay the foundation of a system
which would greatly increase the supply of cotton from
India. The duty of the Government was to improve the
communications with the cotton-growing districts, which
at present did not possess easy access to the sea. The prin-
cipal sources of supply, to say nothing of the subordinate
ones in the North -West Provinces, were Dharwar and
Berar. With regard to the first, a road was in course of
construction, which had already advanced as far as the
frontier of the Presidency of Madras. A portion of it would
cross the Ghauts, and the Madras Government had been
requested to expedite its completion as much as possible.
With respect to Berar, two means of communication were
being prepared—one by the East India and Peninsula Rail-
way, and the other by a branch at Nagpoor. The southern
part of the Berar district would be opened by means of the
Godavery. No time had been lost in conducting the works
upon the river. When Capt. Hayne was in this country
he applied for a quantity of machinery to forward opera-
tions along the course of the river, and that machinery was
sent out at once. The work was progressing satisfactorily,
and had been favourably reported upon by Sir W. Denison,
the Governor of Madras. The original difficulty by which
the work was impeded was the want of money, but that had
been got over, and any necessary amount would now be
forthcoming. The house would be pleased to hear that only
that morning they had determined that orders should be
sent to India to prosecute the opening of the Godavery as fast
as possible, consistently with the proper execution of the
works. (Hear.) He entertained no doubt that the opera-
tion would, in the end, be commercially successful, but that
was a point which ought not at the present moment to be
looked at too closely. He had nothing more to say with regard
to finance ; but there were some points connected with the
political administration of India upon which he wished to
make a few observations. He believed that Lord Canning's
policy in respect to the native princes and chiefs in India
was sound in principle, and would lay the surest founda-
tion for the maintenance of our power in that country.
(Hear, hear.) In past years the tendency of our rule had
been rather to oppress than to conciliate these influential
persons, but in late years that line of policy had been en-
tirely reversed. New treaties had been made with several
native princes, and territories have been assigned to them
which, without weakening our empire, had increased their
dignity and honour, and made them feel that their rights
would not be usurped or invaded by the British Govern.
ment. The Sikkim war just concluded presented a remark-
able proof of our improved policy in dealing with the native
rulers. The Rajah of Sikkim having carried off some of our
subjects a force was despatched to the frontier, and the rajah
Was informed that our object was to obtain reparation, but
not to annex a single acre of territory. In a very short time
a treaty was arranged with the rajah, our subjects were re-
stored, and the whole affair passed off in the most friendly
manner. Not only did our negotiator obtain, but the
rajah engaged to allow a free passage for merchandise
through his territory from India into Thibet, and by an-
other way on the payment of a reduced duty. It had long
been a desideratum to procure the opening of a road from
India to China, and that had at length been satisfactorily
accomplished by the aid of the Rajah of Sikkim. The same
course had been pursued with regard to the upper classes
in our own provinces. The talookdars of Oude, who but
lately were in arms against us, had, in consequence of this
new policy, become our friends and supporters. In their
own districts they acted the same part as country gentlemen
in this country, administering the law as magistrates,
collecting the revenue, and exercising other functions.
There was a general tendency, in fact, to raise those per-
sons. Hon. gentlemen could not better understand how
that was being done than by referring to the report by the
Chief Commissioner of Oude. Such was the policy pursued
by the Government in India, and he hoped lie could show
that that of the Ilome Government also was in the same
direction. The Government were fortunately not without
the means of rewarding remarkable instances of attachment
to the Sovereign on the part of native princes and others.
Her Majesty had been pleased to institute an order of
knighthood which had already been conferred on seven or
eight of the principal chiefs of India, and would, in the
opinion of the Governor-General, be greatly valued by
them, and have an important effect in increasing their good .
will towards this country. The right hon. gentleman then
referred to the three bills relating to India which had re-
cently passed through that house—viz., the India Council
Bill, the Courts of Judicature Bill, and the Civil Service
Bill—the general object of which was to remove the exclu-
sive character of the government in India, and to admit to
a participation in it both English settlers and natives of
all races. Under their provisions a native would be eligible
for any civil employment, for a seat on the bench, or even
for one in the legislature of the country. It was a sound
policy, and the Government at home and in India would be
animated by the same spirit in carrying it out. The house
would be happy to hear that since the bill passed he had
received a minute from the Governor-General recommend-
ing a course substantially the same as that which they had
adopted. With regard to the other two bills, the first of
them admitted natives to the highest places in the Legis-
lative Council. The other admitted them to the bench, a
step which would improve the administration of justice.
It had been a matter of great satisfaction to him to find a
general concurrence in these measures, and he was con-
vinced they were steps in the right course, a conviction in
which ho was supported by those who were connected
with India, and were most competent to form a sound opi-
nion on the subject. He could only hope that these mea-
sures, when brought into operation, would contribute to
the welfare of India, and cement the union between that
country and England. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. SEYMOUR said that the right hon. gentleman
had just delivered one of the most important speeches re-
lative to India which had ever been made in that house,
and that it propounded a wise policy, which was calculated
to overcome all our past commercial difficulties with regard
to that country. Mr. Wilson had fallen a sacrifice, but
not until he had laid the foundation of a new policy, which
he was enabled to do by reason of his masterly knowledge
of the subject. It was gratifying to hear that Mr. Laing
had arrived in England in improved health, and' that he
would shortly proceed again to the scene of his useful la-
bours. Both Mr. Laing and the right hon. Secretary for
India were in favour of equalising the income and expendi-
ture, and of admitting the natives to a share in the admi-
nistration of Indian affairs. Both gentlemen were giving
the natives au incentive to the practice of economy. The
right hon. gentleman was anticipating a deficit of
£1,000,000 in the present year, but that deficit could be
met by a reduction of military expenditure. There was
an enormous amount of European troops in India. There
was a surplus of 19,000 men there beyond what was
absolutely required, and that number ought to be gra-
dually reduced, Lately 3,000 of the artillery were sent
out, and that seemed a strange proceeding, seeing that
there was a surplus of 19,000 men there already.
An enoimous error of £1,000,000 had been made by the
Legislature of Calcutta, and it would have been most desir-
able if the right hon. gentleman had given the house some
explanation on that point. The income• tax had turned out
an apparent failure. Still, it was quite right to persevere in
enforcing it with certain modifications. The probability
was, that at the end of the present year the income and ex-
penditure would balance each other if the estimates could be
depended upon. The cultivation of cotton, and the emi-
gration from India to the West Indies, were subjects of
paramount importance. The famine must have convinced
the right honourable gentleman of the necessity of en-
couraging public works in India. The statement of
the right hon. gentleman with reference to the indigo dis-
tricts was not perfectly satisfactory, so far as the law of con-
tracts was concerned. If he had prohibited the Legislature
of Calcutta from passing the law of contracts, then what

other law of contracts had be told them to adopt ? With
reference to the export of cotton from India, he thought a
railway, or at all events a tram railway, ought to be made
between Madras and Calcutta. Nothing had been done to

advance railways in the southern part of India; and un-
doubtedly this was a subject which requited immediate at-
tention. He was delighted that the Government were at
length adopting an enlightened policy with regard to the
native chiefs, a policy which, if adopted som.e years ago, would
have prevented the mutiny, and been productive of the most
beneficial results. Ho was glad, too that the order of the star
had been inaugurated as the crowning point of this policy of
conciliation. The natives would feel deeply grateful to her

Majesty for this special mark of her favour. Every educated
native was a friend to England, and the more education was
diffused among the natives, the greater would be the ad-
vantages we should gain at home. He concluded by again
thanking the' right hon. gentleman for the very able state-
ment he had made.

Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY reminded the house that
£4,000,000 had been added to the Indian debt, and that tha'
debt now amounted to £103,000,000. This was rather an
alarming state of things. The observations of tha right hon.
Secretary for India were exceedingly sparing as regarded
Indian finance. Ho (Sir H. Willoughby) feared that the
public purse would be still further called upon to supply
the additional deficiencies in tLe income of India. These
reductions of the Indian Army went, no doubt, with benefit
to the Exchequer, but he questioned the value of them in
some cases, especially when they reduced the force by
thousands and tens of thousands, in the wholesale discharge
of the Sepoys. He thought that was carrying matters to
dangerous extremes. He knew that the expenditure of the
Indian Army was last year £ls,ooo,ooo—and that was a
very large sum—but he trusted the Secretary of State for
India, in Council, would defend the Indian Exchequer for
their outlay. The question was, what was the limit of the
expenditure on Indian railways ? He would like to know
the extreme amount, and the obligations we were likely to
incur on this head. He understood £30,000,000 would be
advanced by the companies and the remainder by the Go-
vernment. He wanted to know how it was going to be done ?
Were they to go on borrowing £17,000,000, £18,000,000, or
£20,000,000 for the next two years ? He should like to know
that the expenditure would be strictly limited. It was of
very great importance that the house should know what the
expenditure was to be so as to limit it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KINNAIRD said it would be the object of the In-
dian Government to throw the burden of the outlay upon
the Indian finances, and he trusted the house would
watch narrowly the expenditure connected with these
finances. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the honourable
baronet in the line of policy that had been pursued to-
wards the Indian princes, although it was carrying the idea
too far to say that that policy had been adopted in conse-
quence of the mutiny. The fact was it was the assistance
rendered by the Indian princes during the mutiny that had
entitled them to so much consideration, and they were only
receiving the reward of their fidelity. (Hear.) There was one
point upon which much stress had been laid in the economy
of governing India, that was retrenchment. He did not
think retrenchment would effect everything; he believed a
judicious expenditure on public works would be far more
beneficial, and he hoped the Government would adopt that
course. He would place those works under men of ability
and distinction to carry out, and he was sure of a satisfac-
tory result. The hen. gentleman then concluded by point-
ing out the adaptability of the country for cotton growing.
Mr. VANSITTART deprecated the practice of asking
for loans in the way proposed by the right hon. the Secretary
of State for India. He wished for a comprehensive scheme
and recommended that the fifteeen Indian railway com-
panies should be moulded into one, and presided over by a
Government Cabinet. The expenses of so many chairmen,
secretaries, &c., would then be got rid of. He instanced
the mode of making some of the lines—one as straight as a
needle, and so laid out that it missed nearly every town
and village for 450 miles. The income was only £7,000 in
six months for an outlay of millions.
Mr. CRAWFORD contended that the fusion of the
companies in the way proposed would never answer. He
advocated the sale of the waste lands and bringing them
into cultivation as a source of great revenue to the State.
Mr. VANSITTART said he was not actuated in the
opinions which he had formed by any stock which he held
in the Madras Railway.
M:. FORSTER said that he had no doubt the revenues
derived from salt would be greatly increased in the future
from the increased supplies which would be provided of that
article, consequent upon the completion of the railways and
improving the communication of the country. The state-
ment of the right hon. baronet with respect to the probabi-
lity of the increased supply of cotton, would, he thought,
afford great satisfaction to the manufacturers of the country.
The great cause of the prosperity of America was due not
merely to the production of cotton, but to the money which
had been expended in improving the navigation of the
country. The expenditure of a few hundred thousands on
the Mississippi had made New Orleans one of the most pros-
perous ports in the world; and the improvement in the na-
vigation of the Indies would also mike Kurrachee a port
scarcely second in importance to New Orleans. The open-
ing up of the navigation of the Godavery would be equiva-
lent to the establishment of a new branch of trade and in-
dustry in India. There was in India more land fit to grow
cotton than in any ether country in the world, and it was a
crying shame that our manufacturers should be in this state
of things, and dependent on a foreign country for the sup-
ply of the raw material. (Hear.)
Col. SYKES said that the flattering tale told by Mr.
Laing in his budget speech in India had not been realised
and plenty of figures had been given, but very few facts.
He contended that so far from there being a surplus, there
would be a very great deficiency of revenue, and analysed
at some length the figures and statements bearing on the
finance of India. The reduction in the numbers of the army
was, no doubt, very great, but it was an extraordinary fact
that notwithstanding this reduction of 200,000 native troops,
the expenditure for the army of 1860 61 was greater than
it was when the army was at its full strength. This was
owing to the fact that so large a proportion of the army was
composed of Europeans, the cost of one of whom was equal
to five native soldiers. At the same time he concurred with
the right hon. baronet the Secretary of State for India
that the future prospects of India were of a very
satisfactory character, and even wth the addition
that had recently been made to the debt, it was not now
more than equal to two and a half year's revenue, and in
that respect the position of India was not more favourable
than this country or of any other nation in Europe. The
expenditure upon railways and canals in India he looked
upon as of a most productive character, and the Government
could not push forward works of that character too rapidly,
but he thought that there was still plenty of room to carry
out greater economy than had yet been attempted. He sug-
gested that the payment of the income tax in India should
be limited to incomes of £5O or £lOO a year. (Hear.) -
Mr. EWART concurred heartily in the opinions which
the right hon. baronet had expressed with respect to the
position and prospects of India. He hoped that the attention
of the Government would be directed to the best means of
encouraging European settlers, and of improving the law
relating to contracts in India. He congratulated the right
hon. Secretary for India en the admirable address he had
delivered, which, with some few slight exceptions, on which
further information might have been desirable, was most
satisfactory.
Mr. ADAM also expressed the gratification with which he
heard the statement of the right hon. gentleman, but it
should be remembered that Indian estimates were not to be
relied upon. He trusted that under the new system now to
be inaugurated greater relianCe might be placed upon the
figures reaching us from India. Mr. Laing's speech was
an excellent one in very many respects, but there were
points even in that address which might be questioned.
He (Mr. Adam) hoped to see the licence tax and the income
tax adapted to the views of the natives. He believed the
greatest curse of India was its centralisytion, and therefore
he was glad to learn that portion of the statement te-night,
from which it appeared that the local legislative councils
would have an influential voice in the government of the
country. He was in favour of allowing the ryots the privi-
lege of redeeming the land tax. He regretted that these
Indian bills had been all thrown upon the table of the house
at a period of the session when hon. members had not had
sufficient time to consider them.
Mr. GREGSON thought it unwise to allow India to be
coming to this country for loans, because she was taxed to
a far less extent than England was, notwithstanding her
enormous extent and population. At the same time, no
money could be better employed than in making roads
through that country. He thanked the right hon. gentle-
man for his excellent speech.
Mr. BAZ LEY also congratulated the right hon. gentle-
man on the enlightened policy which he had that evening.
enunciated. It was imperative on the part of her Majesty's
Government to promote the cultivatioi of cotton in India,
and all the British dependencies. He believed that the
growth of cotton in India might be greatly increased, that
the fibres might be lengthened to the extent that they were
in the United States, and that in this way the ryots might
be benefited by receiving additional wages. Our paper
manufacturers are craving for waste cotton. In India it
was very abundant ; indeed there was more cotton growing
there than in all the world beside. It was only needed to
develop the resources of the country to place us perfectly in-
dependent of American slave-grown produce, and bring us
a large increase of wealth and prosperity.
Mr. HADFIELD rose amid cries of "divide," and
claimed that trustees of money should have something better
to invest their funds in than the 3 per Cents. He recom-
mended the opening up of our Indian empire.
Sir C. WOOD replied. lie severally answered the ob-
jections urged against the scheme of the loan, adding that
it would tend to keep the finances of the country within
bounds. His scheme was very simple. The railroads
would cost fifty-six millions of money, and he proposed, if
the companies could not raise the sum, ti do it for them.
There was a guarantee already existing, and until the rail-
ways were completed there would be a loss going on to the
country.
The resolution was then agreed to without a divison, and
the house resumed.
Mr. DILLWYN, in the absence of Mr. Barnes, asked
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if his at-
tention had been drawn to the state in which the town of
Accrington had been placed by the vicar of Whalleyseiz g
tl:e household goods and other property of poor parishioners,
and selling the same by auction, to enforce the paysenr.n