The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-10 00:00:00

" Lenit albescens nimos capillus ;"

because he was an illustration of the fact that one might lose
one's curls and still retain one's taste for sarcasm. (Laugh-
ter and cheers.) I must say, sir, on this occasion that I had
the honour of a seat in the house when the right hon. gen-
tleman first took his place in it. I early, indeed immediately,
recognised his great abilities, and without envy, without the
slightest grudging, I have watched his rise to his present
pre-eminence. But intemperate language in a position such
as the right hon. gentleman occupies is always a proof to
me of a falling cause--(cheers)—and I regard that speech
and those expressions as .a happy omen of coming suc-
cess of this motion. (Renewed cheers.) The right hon.
gentleman will pardon me if I express to him an opinion. I
regard him as the Red Indian of debate. (Laughter.) By
the use of the tomahawk he has cut his way to power, and
by a recurrence to the scalping system he hopes to prevent
the loss of it. (Cheers and laughter.) When the right
hon. gentleman uses towards one who has offered him no
offence—(" Oh, oh 1")—language of the tone and character
which he has applied to me, I say this, that I was as •
tonished at the rudeness of the assault—(" Oh, oh 1" and
cheers)—but I readily forgive it on account of the feeling of
anger and of disappointment at blighted hopes by which it
was dictated. (" Oh, oh!" and cheers.)

" Nunc ad to, et tua magna, Pater, consulta revertor."

I gladly turn from these personal topics, but and er the circum-
stances I felt it impossible to leave them wholly unnoticed.
(Hear.) I now pass on to review some of the acts of the late Go-
vernment—(laughter)—l mean of the present Government.
On Monday next, perhaps, the expression I inadvertently
used will be more apposite. (Laughter and cheers.) Like
the hon. member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Ker Seymer) I was a
party to the overthrow of the Government of the noble
viscount the member for Tiverton. I voted also as that
hon. • gentleman did on the China question. I never
gave a vote with more confidence. I never looked
back upon a vote with less regret. So likewise with regard
to my vote on the Conspiracy Bill. I voted with the
majority on that occasion, and, having overthrown the
Government of the noble viscount, ii appeared to me to be
a public duty not upon captious or light grounds to oppose
the Government which succeeded it. I appeal to the house, I
appeal even to hon. gentlemen on the Treasury Bench whether
through the whole of last year I did not give them a fair
support whenever it was in my power to do so. During the
progress of the India Bill I did my utmost to render the
passing of that measure as easy to them as possible. With
respect to the motion of my right hon. friend the member
for Oxford, I agreed with them in defending the Oude Pro-
clamation. Did I conceal my opinion ? Did I not rather
do my very utmost to aid them ? On no occasion until the
introduction of their Reform Bill did I refrain, when a sense
of public duty allowed of it, from supporting them. I may be
permitted to advert, as other hon. members have done so, to
the first India Bill which they proposed. I see opposite to
me the noble lord the Secretary of State for India. I admire
his talents ; I think highly of his administrative skill ;
I sometimes almost regard him as the apes alters of Rome.
For the first India Bill I believe he was not immediately
responsible ; but it was a bill not actually stillborn but
smothered with ridicule almost before its first feeble cry was
heard, (Laughter.) The noble lord afterwards brought
forward a measure of substitution, and I must be allowed to
say that in dealing with the grave difficulties of India he
has not been very successful. After the termination, or
rather the overthrow, of that fatal mutiny by the skill of
our generals, the gallantry of our troops, and the ability of
the civil and military servants formerly attached to the East
India Company two great difficulties remained. These were
the financial affairs of India and the reorganisation of the
Indian army. Now, how has the Government handled these
great questions ? With respect to finance and debt, the
statement was officially made to'the house about the Bth of
February that the Indian Exchequer would require assist-
ance by loan to the amount of £5,000,000 sterling. A month,
however, had hardly elapsed before it turned out that this
estimate was deficient by a sum of nearly another five
millions ; and it now remains for this house to provide a
further loan to the extent of £i,000,000. Next as to the
that
rm some attim theis p
sre-organisationtoot of the army. What is the position of affairs
a
past
tobmeeen silt h
moment
ha
s ol e
causethe anxietystate of
Europe abtapao for
in many quarters, 100,000 English troops have been at the
opposite corner of the world. As late as
March last the
Executive Government sought to send td India 10 com-
panies of artillery. I do not see the hon. and gallant mem-
ber for Westminister (General Evans) in his l but we
all know that it was by the intervention of tlrliisueel;
the earnest entreaty of that gallant officer, backedlsyelltiet
opinion of many other hon. members, that the sending out
But
of those 10 companies of artillery was prevented. is
that all? The reorganisation of the 'lndian army is, after
all, the capital difficulty with which the Government and
the Legislature of this country have to contend, with a
view to giving security to our Indian possessions. Well,
what has the Government done With regard to that great
question? They threw it down before a commission.
There are arrayed on that commission two Secretaries of
State, the Secretary of State for India, the Secretary of
State for War, the Commander-in-Chief, and Indian autho-
rities, and servants • of the Crown. They are so exactly
balanced in numbers, so equally divided in opinion that
they have, as I believe, looking to the evidence and the
questions put, a Secretary of State on each side,the Com-
mander-in-Chief and the Queen's officers inclining one way,
while the Company's servants and other authorities incline
the other. The consequence is that this great question not
only rests in suspense, but is the subject at this moment of
the greatest conflict of opinion, and it remains still unde-
cided by the authority of her Majesty's advisers. Talkthan of
divisions Where could you have wider sion .
that which exists between the Secretary of State for India,
the Commander-in-Chief, and the Secretary of State for
War. And yet their united counsels are necessary to bring
this important subject to a definitive solution. A word upon
the subject of finance. I am not disposed willingly or
needlessly to oppose the Government, or to offer any hostile
remarks upon their budget of last year, but what was that
budget ? Without' the intervention of Parliament, upon
the responsibility of Government, it allowed two millions of
direct taxes in the shape of income-tax to be remitted. It
allowed to remain unremitted
tree
millions of war taxes
upon tea and sugar. It increaseddebt in time of
our
peace to the extent of two
that sum has since been fresh loan, and if
millions by a
repaid, it can only have been so out
of the balances at the exchequer,which it is an object of
paramount importance to ke
as at the present. (Hear, hle'iartull at so critical a juncture
The hon. member for
Dorset has adverted to the subject of
church-rates.
again, notwithstanding my earnest e Here,
d
Government, I found it utterly impossiblere to support the
to countenance
the measure which was brought forward by the right hon.
gentleman the member for Cambridge University.
ap-
peared to me to violate every principle for wheirchTC it
man could contend with respect to the union betweenhurch-
Church and State. It offered a premium to Dissent
with-
out satisfying Vssenters—(hear, hear)—it left
an
angrycontroversy open ; in short, a more feeble effort t
o deal
with a great difficulty was never_ witnessed in this house.
(Hear.) So with rsispect to the J ews. Of all the
impotent
conclusions that Parliament ever arrived at, I think the
so-called settlement of the Jew question decidedly the worst.
(Hear, hear.) it leaves the difference between the two
houses untouched, and, so far from preventing controversy,
it is so shaped that in each session the questicn can hardly
fail to be revived. Already, sir, you have had ample proof
that it has not put an end to angry and disagreeable con-
tention. (Hear, hear) I now turn to foreign affairs, though
L do not intend to travel at length into that matter. I must
say, however, that I heard with surprise a statement made
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night with re-
gard to Austria. He said, speaking of the resolution pro-
posed at the end of the late Parliament by the noble lord the
member for London, that the carrying of that resolution
altogether 1 analysed the influence of England with the
Cabinet of Vienna, that it converted the Government, as it
were, into a dead body, and rendered its counsels unavail-
ing. I am open to correction, but if I am not much mis •
taken, if wee after the vote in question that the Government

of Lord Derby advised the Government of Aus,tria to suspen
RS threatened invasion of Sardinia until a proposition made
'at their instance to France and Sardinia had received an an-
swer ; and, so far from their influence being paralysed at
Vienna, in an evil hour the Austrian Government hearkened
to their counsel, and suspended the invasion of Picdmont fer
four days, to their own great and, perhaps, irreparable loss.
(Hear.) I differ from the hnn. member for Birmingham
with regard to the pbliey of the Government in arming the
fleet. Their conduct in that respect has been, I think quite
correct. (Hear, hear.) With the view of mediating at a
fit opportunity between the contending parties, and in the'
interests of peace, it is right that England 'should be strong,
and strengthening our fleet has tlit-gtext ad-Vantage, that
to continental Powers who fight with armies England so
armed cannot be an object of suspicion or anger. (Hear,
hear.) The dissolution of the late Parliament, however, is
a point upon which the Government are fairly liable to se-
vere censure. That dissolution was in theory a rash and
improvident measure,while practically has led to evil re-
sults. (Cries of "Oh I" and cheers.) I am not speaking,
of evil results in a party sense, but of evil results in a na-
tional sense. (Hear, hear.) Is it 'seemly that the First
Minister of England, having made a declaration of policy
in the House of Lords, and circumstances varying, and he
seeing it to be necessary more or less to correct his state-
ment, should not have an opportunity of making that cor-
rection in Parliament, where his authority is supreme, but
should be driven to explain himself at a civic feast in the
Mansion-house of the city of London ? (Hear, hear.) The
Under-Secretary for FOreign Affairs has talked of the levity
of hustings speeches, but what was the extraordinary-gravity
of the speech which he addressed to his constituents at
Horsham ? Some doubt had been thrown upon the ques-
tion of the relations between France and Russia. There was
no opportunity of answering any question here or in the
House of Lords ; Parliament was dissolved ; and the hon.
gentleman was compelled by a sense of public duty to make
the following important communication from the hustings
at Horsham :

" In connection with the questionof the supposed alliance
between France and Russia, the Government of this country
considered it their duty to address to the Emperor of Russia
a direct and categorical inquiry as to whether such a treaty
containing anything hostile to England did exist; and the
answer received from Prince Gortschakoff was as follows
I -do not deny that there may exist a written engagement
between France and Russia, but I can assure you in the ni ost
positive manner that such arrangement contains nothing that
in the most distant manner could be interpreted as consti-
tuting a hostile alliance against Europe. If Lord Mal-
ineskuy should be questioned on this subject, he
may answer with confidence in the above sense, and I give
you my personal guarantee that the declaration will not be
falsified by the facts.' "
Mr. S. FITZGERALD— I may be permitted to state
that in one report of my speech the language which the
right hon. baronet has quoted is certainly attributed to me ;
but if the right hon. gentleman refers to other journals—(a
laugh)—he will find that the word " Europe" is simply a
misprint for " England." The expression used in the an-
swer received from Prince Gortschakoff was, " a hostile
alliance against England."
Sir J. GRAHAM—I am glad to receive the explanation
of the hon. gentleman, but could anything prove more con-
clusively the inconvenience, to say the least, of having such
important matters communicated to the public in an elec-
tion speech, with imperfect means of reporting, and what
must be the opinion of Prince Gortschakoff whn he hears
that during an interregnum of nearly six weeks our Govern-
ment were driven to the necessity of publishing the con-
tents of important despatches from the hustings at an elec-
tion? (Hear, hear.) But the awkwardness does not end
here, for I understand that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer gave to his constituents at Aylesbury a somewhat dif-
ferent account of the Russian despatch. The Under-Secre-
tary for Foreign _ Affairs did not deny that Prince
Gortschakoff admitted there was a written engagement, but
I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer said at Aylesbury
that there was no written engagement.

The CHANCELLOR of theEXCHEQUER—Notreaty.
(A laugh.)

_
Sir J. GRAHAM—No treaty—a written engagement as
distinguished from a treaty ; but if there be nothing hostile
to England in this written engagement which is not a treaty,
why has it not been communicated to England ? (Hear,
hear.) Has it been so communicated? If it has not, that
is a circumstance of the utmost gravity, capable of exciting
serious apprehension, and showing how dangerous it was
to disable the Crown from taking the advice of Parliament
at so critical a juncture. (Cheers.) Now, I have before
said I entirely approve of an efficient armament. But
during the interregnum, and when the Government, as
described by Lord Derby himself, was in the position of
an officer about to be tried by court-martial, with the
judgment not yet pronounced, when he could not tell
whether his sword would be returned to him or not,—
under these circumstances her Majesty's Government has,
without the advice and knowledge of Parliament, taken te •
of the most important steps with regard to the army and
navy any Government has ever adopted. (Loud cheers
from the Ministerial benches.) 'Well, public necessity
may have justified those measures. (Cheers.i I am not
prepared to deny that they were necessary. (Cheers.) But
I say this, adopting those measures exposes her Majesty's
Government to a most awkward alternative. They either
knew there was an imminent danger of war, or they were
ignorant of it, and were grossly deceived. I do not think
they would attempt to deceive us; but being deceived
themselves, and having recklessly dissolved Parliament,
they were involved in a great constitutional difficulty, and
dealt with the army and navy in the manner I must shortly
describe. First; with regard to the navy ; they have issued
by proclamation an offer of a large bounty, £lO to able sea-
men, £5 to ordinary seamen, and £3 to landsmen. Now, I
deny that any offer of a bounty was necessary for able seamen;
the gallant member for Southwark has stated that the number
of able seamen likely to be obtained by the bouuty is small ;
but, small or great, the offer of the bounty involves an im-
mense principle. What will be the effect of the bounty on
the sailors already in the navy ? 'What will be its effect on
the system of continuous service ? All the efforts of every
naval Administration have been directed to increase the
number of men entening for continuous service. But what
man would enter the navy for a long period, knowing that
in time of peace, on any apprehension of its disturbance, a
bounty of £lO would be offered ? (Hear.) I have always
contended that giving a bounty raises the rate of wages in
the merchant service in a corresponding degree. I under-
stand that the wages in that service have, since the Govern-
ment proclamation, been raised 20s. a month. Taking the
number of men in the mercantile marine at 300,000, what
is the amount of tho increase of £l2 a-year per man? It
is the heaviest tax to which the shipping interest could
possibly be exposed; and it would bear it were it neces-
sary; but is it necessary? During the Russian
war, I resisted the plan of a bounty, yet I and
my colleagues succeeded in manning the fleet. I am
persuaded that this plan of a bounty in time of peace fore
stalls that which is the compensation for the compulsory
service formerly exacted in time of war. You have had
recourse in time of peace to an expedient that should be
strictly reserved for a time of war, and I believe the mea-
sure is imprudent and impolitic in the highest degree.
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the army, the Govern-
ment has, by another proclamation, encouraged the arming
of the entire community ; but I am wrong in saying the en-
tire community—it is one class of the community only.
But if the system is carried out this class arming cannot
stand for a momeht, and if you arm the whole community
the utmost precaution will be necessary—precautions care-
fully considered and wisely framed—or the consequences
will be dangerous in the highest degree. On this subject I
will refer to an admirable passage in the works of M.
Guizot. When Louis Philippe came to the throne it was
his duty to act in the organisation of the National Guard
of France. Of this measure M. Guizot says—" The danger
and the merit of the National Guard consist in the excite-
ment of hopes essentially different. The powerful organi-
sation of this body gave great satisfaction to those who
were uneasy with respect to the independence and foreign
influence of the nation." (That is the view of the leading
journal of the day in this country.) " The friends of order
hoped to find in the National Guard a force made to main-
tain order, should tne army fail from its weakness or disaf-
fection. The Liberals flattered themselves that the National
Guard, being always available, a great standing army
would no longer be necessary." (This view is also enter-
tained in this country.) "The democrats were delighted
to see the great body of the people armed, and thus placed
in a position to interfere with effect in the management of
public affairs." Now, I think these sentences are pregnant
with warning. Yet Parliament, not being sitting, by an
act of the prerogative alone, the first step has been taken
towards the establishment of a National Guard. (Hear,
hear.) baring the interregnum, the Executive, with a bold-
ness far exceeding its strength, has decided questions with
regard to both armyand navy greater than any Government
ever before dealt with. I will now only trouble the house
with one short reference to the subject of reform. This
was one of those questions on which I found it impossible to
continue my support to her Majesty's Government. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer said, and said truly, with
respect to the £lO county franchise, that the Government
thought it expedient to accompany it with some counter-
vailing provision, that might modify the application of it.
When he came to speak of the borough franchise he said
that the great danger, in his view, was " keeping the word
of pronfise to the ear" while "breaking it to the hope."
Now, that is an exact description of what the Government
did with regard to the county franchise ; they contrived to
neutralise it, and even to throw its influence in the opposite
direction. But we have not fought this battle in vain. Her
Majesty's Government has discovered the expediency of a
lower franchise in the towns, and even of its redistribution,
and the disfranchisement of some of the small boroughs. It
these offers had been made as frankly before the dissolution
as they were on Tuesday night, I am satisfied that a bill
might have been carried with the consent of a large majority
of this house, to which the other House of Parliament would
have assented, and this angry question of the reform of
Parliament might have been settled on the very basis which
her Majesty's Government have now come to. (Cheers.)
Well, and is this new to him ? Is it a discovery lately made
in consequence of the general election ? It is; the view which
the sagacity of the right hon. gentleman the member for'
Oxfordshire and the integrity of my right hon. friend the
member for the University of Cambridge pointed out to
them. (Cheers.) Well, now where are we ? The principle
of identity of suffrage being essential in the view of her
Majesty's present advisers any lowering of the franchise in
boroughs was dangerous, inadmissibl, and in favour of
the views of those democrats with whom I and the hon.
member for Birmingham are classed. (Ministerial cheers.)
So dangerous was it that it was not to be tolerated for a
moment. Gentlemen behind there cheer. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) 'What, may I ask, is your view of it Are. you
prepared for a £lO franchise without compensating provi-
sions, and are you prepared for a considerable lowering of
the franchise below £lO and in an extension of disfranchise-
ment and redistribution of seats ? (Hear, hear.) Is that
your view? Say so with the Government, and then all
the difficulties with respect to reform will for the present
be at an end. But I say that groat questions have been
paltered with, great hopes have been excited. I have
some sympathy with the late House of Commons which the
right hon gentleman the member for Droitwich treats
with so much contempt. I think that it was treated in an
unworthy manner. But you shall hear, both with respect
to the dissolution and with respect to the vote of want
of confidence, words which convey with the utmost vigour
and perspicacity the opinion which
amendment ; and perhaps the houset
awilll entertain
bear with as to this
me when
I say that it is with this quotation that I mean to conclude.
The words are these—
stances attending a dissolution, the advisers of the Crown
time,
hfor t
he
ee xineracdisee,
faf
rthteha prerogative
occasion, of
ar
al
l thedissolving,c ifrocruttnhe.
pweirlal
tbeeerffeosrptobnibmleaatnosanffuatugritearioanrliaanndenetx.
citlat imesnta
tdaepsrpoep-
up for a while ys a tottering Administration. (Hear.) There
is a time when the measure of the iniquities of a Govern-
gardoefdv.otiTngh
to the voice of friendly warning or to attend to gentler
mmpueernsbttybisei fnauplloBl.k4ein_Tthoerthe
eims a”time when if they refuse to listen
hints, forbearance must end, and the plainest language
The quotation I,
_have 'read from are the words of Lord
the honour
Peel, of want of c(had
co hn efiedres andee
T he countertimcehhe ea rs s
a)
are disre Hints
must bo spoken.
The plainest language .
The noble marquis with him en a motion made by Sir R.
cheers)—when ed.n I
has proposed words sufficiently intelli-
gible, about which there can IN no mistake and without

hesitation I give my support to the amendment of my noble
friend. (Loud cheers.) •
-

Mr. WHITESIDE—The right hon. gentleman who has
just spoken, with more than his usual ability and lucidity,

has informed the house—and I must say in a somewhat
confident tone—of the certainty of the amendment of the
noble lord being affirmed by the vote of the 'house, If,
after a fair and impartial hearing the house is of opinion
that the amendment ought, to be carried, why of course the
decision will be tine to be submitted to with cheerfulness
and respect by her Majesty's Administettion. (A la Ugh.)

But before that decision is arrived. at common justice re-
quires that something should be said and heard on behalf
of an Administration whom the right hon. gentleman, 'with
all deference to him, has maligned. We were prepared for
this amendment, long before the noble lord gave his notice,
by the discussions that for some weeks before the meeting
of Parliament took place in the press. I confess that I read
those discussions with pain and humiliation. (Laughter
from the Opposition and cheers from the Ministerialists.)
There was in them no exposition of principle, no statement
of future luminous measures. There was no profound
policy sketched out, but the burthen of all the articles was
this —will the noble lord the member for London agree with
the noble lord the member for Tiverton ? (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Oh 1 happy day; oh 1 joyful hour—the noble
lord the member for London smiles at the noble lord the
member for Tiverton. (Laughter.) The morning lowers,
a dark cloud brings on the day, for the noble lord the mem-
ber for Tiverton frowns on the noble lord the member for
London. On the smile or on the frown of the noble lord
the member for Tiverton, according to the opinion of the
advocates of that noble lord, depend the hopes, the fears,
• the fate, and the glory of England. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment are still in their places, but why ? Because the noble
lord the member for Tiverton in his last speech in the last
Parliament condemned them to maintain their places. (A
laugh.) What did the noble lord say ? He said, Why you
are a most provoking party, your discipline -is so perfect,
your order is so complete that when I wish you to speak
you maintain silence. In anticipation of the noble lord we
were silent; while he spoke of course we were speechless,
because we were under the wand of the Enchanter. (Laugh-
ter.) But what has ho said ? From the position he holds I
suppose ho rose to expound the principles of the new coali-
tion. And how did he argue his impeachment ? Was there
ever, even for a man of his imagination, a speech more singu •
larly destitute of freshness or novelty ? (Hear, hear.) He
commenced with the old etch), of the Conspiracy Bill, and I
must say the noble lord W as not very respectful to the last Par-
liament that heard that measure discussed and that decided
against it, because he expressed no remorse, no repentance'
for having introduced that bill. In point of fact, while he
commented upon the conduct of the Government he cen •
sured the Parliament that censured him, and so disposed of
the Conspiracy Bill. Then he proceeded to India. But
how tiresome it is to refer to an old debate, to discuss how
the India Bill was carried. From a practical man we might
have expected a proof, if that were possible, that the
Government of India under my noble friend was weakly, in-
efficiently, or corruptly conducted. If the affairs of India
have been wisely and well managed it is a poor ground on
which to impeach the Ministry to refer to a former debate
which led to the carrying of the measure under which the
Government of India is now conducted. (Hear, hear.) Well,
then, he said, all your domestic measures have been
failures. Now, the noble lord is a fair opponent in debate.
Is that accurate ? I might ask him, when attacked with
respect to the domestic measures of this country, with what
measure of utility his name is to be associated. (Cheers.)
Might I take the liberty of inquiring of him what is the
character of that measure for the sale of land in England,
on the introduction of which the hon. and learned member
for Wolverhampton congratulated my hon. and learned
friend, the Solicitor-General, upon serving a Ministry that
allowed him to bring forward a measure of so large a nature ?
(Cheers) What right has the noble lord to asperse the
Administration and say,—You never proposed a domestic
measure that was not a failure, throwing out that imputa-
tion in the lump, but not condescending to details ? The
noble lord who moved his amendment in a speech that was
very graceful and eloquent, and contained, I presume, an
exposition of the principles of unadulterated Whiggism—
(a laugh)—expounded what the principles of Mr. Fox were.
He said ho wished to see those principles upheld by the
great party to which he belongs, instead of the opinions of
Pitt and Castlereagh being acted upon, and he stated cor-
rectly what the opinions of that great champion of popular
liberty were. I admit that Mr. Fox advocated the principle
of non-intervention in the affairs of foreign States. Nay,
he went the length of insisting, against Mr. Pitt, that when
the French nation cut off the heads of the King and of the
Queen of France England had no right to interfere. (Hear,
hear.) I admit the principles of the noble lord, and
the only thing I quarrel with is their application, because,
adopting his principle and adopting the argument of the
noble lord, I shall insist upon the vote of the hon. member
for Birmingham as a just man against the speech that he
has made to night, if he would rather, as he stated on a
former occasion, vote against those who would be in favour of
a policy of interference, than vote for those who would be in
favour of the disfranchisement of one or two rotten boroughs.
I shall apply myself solely to the question of Italy. Diplo-
matists are pleased to say that there is something in the
question of foreign politics which is difficult for plain,
every-day men to understand, but there is no such difficulty
in this case. The noble lord who moved this amendment
and the noble lord the member for Tiverton argue that the
conduct of the Government has led to, this war, and
that the management of foreign affairs would be in safer
and wiser kinds if transferred to those who sit opposite,
but I will disprove that by a very short and temperate
statement. What was the state of Europe in 1848? Louis
Philippe was overthrown, France could not engage in the
affairs of Italy, because she was in a state of disturbance.
Radetsky and the Austrians had withdrawn from Milan,
and the Austrians proposed to the English Government to
deliver up the whole kingdom of Lombardy if we would act
as mediators. The noble lord was informed that the fate
of Italy was in the hands of England, because France could
not interfere. The noble lord himself has stated that the
object of the great act of 1815 was to exclude the French
from Italy—that Lombardy was forced almost on Austria,
and that she took it unwillingly to preserve the balance of
power. The noble lord has contradicted me once before,
unfortunately, in this matter, but I hardly think he will
contradict ine again. Let me call the attention of the right
hon. baronet the member for Carlisle to the part which he
took in this very transaction, because how he and the noble
lord are to sit together in the same Cabinet I cannot un •
derstand. (Laughter.) A special message came from
Austria to the noble viscount, and offered to the noble vis-
count the entire kingdom of Lombardy if we would inter -
pose as mediators in the quarrel. After 10 days' conside-
ration the noble viscount answered that England would not
interfere unless Austria would also agree to give up Venice.
Lord Pnnsonby apprised the noble lord that Austria would
not give up Venice—and our offer was refused. Radetsky
drew the sword—the war broke out in Italy—what fol-
lowed everybody knows, and I assert that the noble lord
is thus the author of all the confusion which now prevails
there. (Cheers.) Lord Normanby knows the truth of this,
for four months afterwards the noble lord opposite wrote to
him a despatch imploring him to use all his influence with
the French Government to induce Austria to repeat the
offer she had made, but Austria refused, and told us it was
too late. (Hear.) The right hon. baronet the member for
Carlisle, who to-night stands up by his eloquence to en-
deavour to bring back the noble lord to power, investigated
this question carefully and closely, and let me read to you
the bitter words in which he described the noble lord's con -
duct and character. " Austria," he said,—
' " Austria, at the moment the first onset was made, ap-
pealed to the noble viscount and to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, in the midst of its difficulties, to mediate between her
and Piedmont. But what was the sine qua non on our part
towards a friendly Power in the midst of difficulties ? The
noble viscount insisted, as a condition precedent to an accept-
ance of the mediation, that Austria should not only abandon
Lombardy but surrender Venice ; and as Austria would not
consent to the surrender of Venice, the noble viscount de-
clinel to undertake the mediation. It is impossible to say
what has been the effect of that act of the noble viscount.
My belief is, that the insurrection of Hungary was the con-
sequence; and, what I regret as much as any man, the in-
tervention of Russia, the interference of that country to
crush the Hungarian insurrection having thus been
rendered necessary."

That is pretty well—(cheers)—but I maintain it to be true,
if it were not I would not quote it. (Cheers.) And now
follows worse :
"Has the noble viscount promoted the cause of Italian
liberty by the cause he has pursued ? Piedmont was twice
in one year at the mercy of the invading army of Austria.
Rome is in possession of the French army. Lombardy is
under the military rule of Austria. Venice was reconquerod.
And we cannot forget the daring exploits in Naples, which
the noble viscount was so anxious to uphold."
(Cheers.) That is the summary of a foreign policy of a
Minister who has told you in this debate that the foreign
policy of this country is in such unsafe hands that unless
you transfer the management of it to him—him, who is
branded by the right hon. member for Carlisle as the author
of the war in Italy and the insurrection in Hungary—you
will not discharge your duties to your constituents. (Cheers )
I see opposite, too, a right hon. gentleman who signed the
circular to call the meeting at Willis's Rooms, who under-
stands the Italian question well, and he, I remember, in this
very matter charged the noble viscount with what I should
be slow to impute to him—equivocating with the ambassa-
dors of Foreign Powers, and dealing with the Ministers of
other States in the spirit of an attorney. (Loud cheers.)
That is the opinion of a right hon. gentleman, the member

for Wilts, wile called a meting to iCsstore the'noble lord to
power. It was in reference to a matter of which I dare say
the noble lord the member for the city of London will re-
member something—the political escapades of Lord Minto in
Italy—"the wanderingmissionary," as Sir W. Molesworth
called him. (Laughter.) Did any man ever hear of a
Government sending out a nobleman to exhort the subjects
of a foreign State to insurrection, to make speeches to the
crowd from a balcony, and call out to them " Viva l' Inde-
penza d' Italia." (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman gave
the house an admirable summary of all the absurdities and
follies which were perpetrated by that noble lord under the
direction of the noble viscount opposite. This is what he
said :

" "Well, we got deeper and deeper into the mire of those
arrangements—till, step by step, the noble lord arrived at
the conclusion, that Sicily must be separated from Naples,
and set up as an independent State. Sicily, with a popula-
tion not exceeding that of this town—the only question
with him being whether that State should be a republic or
monarchy. We began by promoting constitutional reforms;
we ended by promoting separate nationalities."

The ability with which the factsrelating to this matter were
investigated by the right hon. gentleman, and the scornand
ridicule whitl he heaped upon them, convince me that, if
with his experience and knowledge of Italian affairs he sits
down in the Cabinet of the noble lord, it will last but a very
short period. (Cheers.) Without all their teeth drawn I
can't conceive how this happy family is to get on—(laugh-
ter)—but I am convinud that if such a Cabinet did not
speedily fall to pieces it would plunge the foreign policy of
the country deeper into the mire than it had ever been be-
fore. (Cheers.) I agree with the noble marquis who moved
this amendment, that Fox laid down correct principles as to
the foreign policy of this country; but I submit to him that
I have shown the noble viscount opposite to have violated
them most signally in this instance at leaM. (Cheers.)
What is the meaning of non -intervention ?
should like to ask any reasonable man—not
on international law lays it down that you have r o right to
Itinco Every law book
interfere in the domestic affairs of a foreign nation, but I
why did we withdraw our ambassador from
s I
else' fq
understand i+, the meaning of that act was that France. and
s asG mannerotovetrnhoment.aNaples? diplomatist—A
England were of opinion that they had a right to enlighten
internalNnple Ihdicnhotshmeeanouganhtyttohicioignduet her

' Wales never showed'any diSposition to attack or insult us
that hever -heard of. What then becomes of the' noble lord'-s
practice of Fox's principles of non-intervention ?- (Cheeks.•)
But what do you say to the noble lord's behaviour te• Belgium ?
Belgium is a free State; Belgium took no part hi the Rus-
sian war, and never made any attack upon us;
.yet, what
was done by the famous Treaty of Paris with a espect to
Belgium? Why, Lord Clarendon and .he reeiresoutatives
of France, without any notice to Belgium, signed a treaty,
purely, I believe, to gratify the Emperor of the ',French,
compelling her to modify -her fee() preor ae,cording to the
demands that might be made upon tier by the Government
of France. • (Hear, hear.) These are my short °to, mile for.
stating that the foreign polioy of the noble lord has been
incomprehensible, and that you ought not to the nge the
Administration it-least upon that ground. But there are
other points that have been made in the course of this dis-
cussion, and • I come at once to the speeches of the hon.
member for Birmingham and the right hon. baronet the
member for Carlisle. It has been said that comparisons are
odious ; but I• protest that I prefer- the manly, open, bold,
and candid opposition of the hon. member for Birmingham
to the -slow, subtle accusations of the right hon. baronet,
delivered with much solemnity, but with no-small sarcasm.
(Hear.) The right hon. baronet comes before yon, he says;
an injured man, and in a most unforgiving manner he for-'
gives you. (A laugh.) What right has he to represent
himself as an injured man P I, too, like others, have read
his speech at Carlisle, and I have to oall him to account '
now for his imputations upon me and the Government of
which I am a member; and he shan't escape pie. When the
right. hon. gentleman speaks under the blue flag QfCarlisle
a sacred _Lame.. of vehemence is kindled within his breast,
and he employs a very difrerent tone there from the calm,
and solemn, and deliberate manner in which from the
heights of his philosophy he lays down his maxims for your
adoption, But what right had he to attack my right hon.
friend at the head of the Admiralty, ee iffy gallant friend
the Secretary for War, in a manner so unjustiable that he
has been compelled to witlitirAw his apensationa ? (cheers.)
Is it only the honour of the member for Carlisle that is
sacred in this country? What was. the meaning of his
coming • here to,uight fqiitieplacardWith his placard in his
pocket ? What was his accusation It was that an act of
corruption had been perpetrated bye gentleman as pure in
his public conduct as any man.. yvtla eve' crossed the
threshhold of this house ? •Awl what is his excuse for that-
unjustifiable charge ? That he had forgotten that the ohange
made in the allowance to the soldiers was done under an
Act of Parliament. Ile admits that he wee entirely Mi 4 •
taken; and than, he pays; "I eliarged On act of profligacy
and corruption. I find that I was all wrong, bUt you ought
to be greatly obliged to me for confessing ray error, when
I couldn't help it." (4i Hoer," and a laugh.) The real
fact is that the War-office circular to which the right hen.
baronet referred was the immediate consequence of the pass-
ing of the Mutiny Act, It was issued and signed by the
Secretary of State without any communication whatever
with the Sdcretary at War, and the Under Secretary who
drew out the circular was Sir B. Hawes,_ who is, I believe,
an excellent Whig. and according to the tenets of gentle-
men opposite a Whig can do no wrong. The right hon.
baronet this evening said that he would not notice Galway
and the Lever line of packets; but I say that he shall no-
tice it. (Hear, hear.) I assure the right hon. e•entlenian
that when his speech reached Ireland it very much hurt the
feelings cf many parsons there ; and you will observe that
the advocate of popular rights speaking on the hustings
considers that he has a license there that wouldn't belong
to him elsewhere. He says—" 'What is the case as to Gal-
way? Here I can speak more positively." He certainly •
was more positively wrong if possible. (A laugh.) But I
must read his charge in his very words. After stating the
nature of the Cunard contract he comes to the charge of
corruption, his object being to account for the result of an
election which had recently taken place in Ireland, not ac-
cording to the truth, but according to his own uncharitable
exposition of the matter. 'When I have shown the right
hon. gentleman that his statement is utterly groundless, I
have no doubt that, with the same generosity that has
characterised his retraction of all the other charges, he will,
in the handsomest manner possible, make reparation to
those whom he has,aggrievad. His charge is this :
" Now Government bethought themselves, at the in-
stance of a valuable body of members in the west of Ire-
land, that it would be desirable to add to this communica-
tion a communication by Galway, at a cost of £70,000 a-
year. I say it would have been cheaper for the people of
England to give the Government £lOO,OOO capital to be
expended in secret service money in buying up the Galway
votes and debauching the voters rather than £70,000 under
contract for seven years."
The charge is too plain to be misunderstood. You, the
members fer the 'West of Ireland, made a corrupt proposi-
tion to a corrupt Government, and that corrupt Govern-
ment,
on the eve of an election,
.made this bargain, whereas
it would have been cheaper to have bought you, and to have
given you the means of debauching the voters of Ireland.
The right hon. gentleman is familiar, I have no doubt, with
the writings of Sheridan, and he will remember that that
incomparable wit describes those who draw upon their ima-
gination for• their facts. Where, I ask, were the facts to
justify that statement made upon the hustings at Carlisle?
What authority had he—l will not say for inventing, but
for imagining that charge which he brought against a body.
of members of this house, and against the Government of
which I am a humble member? That accusation is utterly
destitute of foundation. (Cheers.) I beg to inform the
right hon. gentleman that neither Lord Eglinton, nor Lord
Derby, nor any member of the Government would be guilty
of the foul practice to which he adverted any more than he
would himself. What are the facts which he did not make
himself acquainted with ? ---In-1852 I sat upon a committee
which was held at the Mansion.house in Dublin, when's
most eminent merchant, Mr. Guinness, was Lord Mayor'of
Dublin, and upon the committee were Mr. G. A. Hamil-
ton, Colonel Latouche, the present Chancellor of Ireland,
the Lord Mayor, and myself. The question which was
submitted by a large body of mercantile men to that com-
mittee was, whether, in consequence of the great traffic
that existed between Ireland and America, it might not
be possible to establish a packet communication
tween Galway and Halifax, which the map showed ~o be
the shortest line of communication between the wo conti-
nents. I ventured myself to write a Paalo.l,et on the sub-
ject—although the discerning public rOuld not read it—(a
laugh)—to prove what I had belie:eed for many years. The
Belfast Chamber of Common:la investigated the subject, and
so did various other mercantile bodies throughout Ireland.
The Belfast non st',a, "If we get this communication from
Galway, we tvill complete the lines of railway from the
west to the north—we will send all our traffic to the west of
Ireland—we shall have a mail which will give us our letters
and remittances two days earlier than we receive them now;
and as an integral part of the British empire we think that
we have a right to this accommodation." (Hear, hear.)
Now, what was the contract ? Not one farthing has been I
paid upon it yet, and never will be unless it •be possible to I
construct that description of vessel which shall make the ,
passage from Galway to Halifax in six days. When those
vessels shall be made and that accomplished the contract
may take effect; but not tell then. Now, every member
of Parliament from the north, south, east, and west of Ire- .
land was in favour of that communication; but the right
hon. baronet, instead of viewing with favour the feeling
of an entire nation, and recognising its right to demand a
moderate stipend to promote the ttliffic between two great
and free countries, turns round upon the Govern-
ment, and stigmatises them as corrupt for listen-
ing to these just and reasonable demands. I warn the
right honourable baronet, and he will excuse me for giving
him this warning. The elections for Ireland are over.
For the first time since 1829 a Conservative majority has
been returned. (A. voice—How ?) Let him not suppose that
if he do, by the confidence of the country, gain political
power, that he can use it not to promote and advance the
good of all classes. (Hear, hear.) Is it true that Galway is
corrupt? Why the noble lord who represents that town is
in opposition to the Government. The interest of his family
is rather given to the noble viscount. I never heard that ho
has been corrupted by the contract. I have never heard it,
and I do not believe it. He will vote, I suppose, against the
Government, as he has always manfully done, and that will
be the best refutation of the charge that the members of
the west of Ireland have been debauched or corrupted.
(Hear, hear.) The next point which the right hon. baronet
made was the Catholic compact. Too long the Whigs used
the religious question for their own benefit. (Cheers.) As
long as the Roman Catholics of Ireland voted for the Whigs
they were a virtuous,. enlightened, grateful, and consistent
people. After. the Whigs have for many years possessed
power and done-nothine•—after long experience of their in-
ability to do. any.good for. the country, the Roman Catholics
think fit to exercise the franchise in favour of native gen-
tlemen who .in former Parliaments have been their repre-
sentatives. They say they are tired of all agitators, Peelite
and Whig, and they have returned—to their honour be it
spoken—men whom they can believe. (Cheers.) I now inform
the right hon. baronet that I will retort on him; coalitions are
odious. As for myself, I do represent my native university,
and it is the highest honour which I can ever hope to
possess. But the right hon. baronet is mistaken if he sup-
poses that I am about to join him and the religious jour-
nals, as they are called, which write up the noble viscount
by defaming- and maligning the Roman Catholics because
they thought proper to support, without corruption, men
who, I trust, -will benefit the empire. A coalition is a very
odious thing. There has been a coalition Government.
The noble viscount was Home Secretary, and the right hon.
baronet was then in office. A coalition was made in Ire-
land which will never be forgotten, as he saying is, "while
grass grows anti water flows." Mr. John Sadleir was made
a Lord of the Treasury. (Cheers.) I have just had in my
hands the papers relating to the last of that party. He was
placed in the Income-tax-oftice, and has become a defaulter.
One was expelled from this • house. Another left it, and
another was likewise in the Income-tax-office, and carried
off some thousands of pounds of the public money. (Cheers.)
That was a• coalition which we can all understand and re-
member. I am of opinion that the rank and distinction
which were then given to the leader of the bank gave credit
and circulation to its paper, and When ruin overtook the
former he asked who was it placed this man in power.
(Hear, hear.) The noble lord the member for the City of
London is not likely to inquire how it happens that he does
not possess that popularity in Ireland to which his personal
virtues, commanding talents, and great distinction might
entitle him. / have always received the greatest courtesy
from the noble lord, but insult is remembered more than
injury. He has described the Protestants as a miserable,
monopolising party. He has described the Roman: Ca tho-
lies in a passage which is not original, for I found it in one
of the orations of Mr. Fox. (Derisive cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I quoted from Mr. Fox, and I
stated at the time that Mr. Fox had used it. (Loud Oppo-
sition cheers.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—We have only been accustomed to
it in Ireland in its original shape, and I am glad the noble
lord as so candid as to refer to the authority which he
quoted. (Loud cries of " Oh !") It is a very small matter
to quote from Mr. Fox. We all do it, and we cannot quote
from a higher authority. It was said that when Parlia-
ment created the £l2 voting franchise in Ireland the Con-
servative party wonld be destroyed ; but the fact is that it
is ten times stronger.. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. bart.
talked of the Catholic combination, and said he had read in
the speeches of the hon. member for Dundalk something
about a charter, and that we had granted it.
Sir J. GRAHAM—I said it was incredible that you
should advise it.
Mr. WHITESIDE—I understood the right hon. baronet
to insinuate that, coupled with the fact that I am member
for a Protestant University, though it , is not exclusively
Protestant, and has not been for the last 60 years, I was
to assent in some way to this charter which is to be granted
hereafter to a college in Dublin.
Sir J. GRAHAM—I said just the reverse, that it was
incredible you should advise such a charter. (Hear.)
Mr. WHITESIDE—That is a mode of speech. When
a man wishes to state anything he says it is quite incredible.
(Loud cheers.) I wiil give a clear and satisfactory account
of what happened on that subject. Twenty-five members
of Parliament waited as a deputation upon the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, as 2,5 members waited upon him in
reference to the land question, and they asked the Minister
to be good enough to consider the subject. It was totally
unconnected with the elections, and I believe occurred a
month or two before the election. Let me ask 1r they
should not do so, if they thought fit ? (Hear, hear. We
see what are the ideas of the right hon. baronet. I mem-
bers of Parliament only ask what ho approves, they are very
well behaved men, but if they notify that they have a de-

mand to make of a public nature, which is published in the
newspapers, it is some conspiracy. These 25 members did
wait firm. the Minister.. The 'Minister heard them for the
first time in his life, and informed them. that the subject
would be`noneidered. Neither myself, nor the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, nor the Lord Lieutenant, nor my noble
friend the Chief Secretary, nor- any one that I know of,
directly,or indirectly, gave any promise, etprese or implied,
to induce those gentlemen to give any vote they do not
choose.to give on this or any other night. (Cheers.) The
right hen. baronet is accustomed to give us the chilling tf_s-
tinaeny. of his experience of political' life. lam not a very
.Old member, nor have I long been a' servant of the Ceown,
but .I understand it to be my duty, .as a servant of the
Crown, to act directly, honestly, and in a Manner winch
will bear the test of investigation, and I do not understand
the policy to which the right hon. baronet is accustomed if
it be that description of policy to which .he has referred:
(Hear.) I will state everything in reference to the Catholic
party without reservation. They called on' the ltlinister and
asked him whether he would undertake a settlement of the
land question. I believe that is a question to which they
are sincerely and conscientiouslyattached. The hon. mem-
ber for Dungarvou applied to me to know when those bills
would be brought in. He called attention to the case of a
priest who had been evicted and deprived of the value of
his improvements, and he asked whether such a grievance
could not be remedied. I answered that I thought it could;
but I never tell any man living, save members of the Go-
verninent, what would be the previsions of the measures I
should propose. They had not the shabby mode-of coming
and saying, " Before we vote, tell-us-what you can do for
us." (Hear, hear.) That independent parly have never
asked directly or indirectly for a plae, and they havenever
received it. The lion. gentleman refused to be a magistrate,
of the town which he repreeents, which I think an absurd
dePisiQll, lleCense a R 0141411 Catholic has a right to be a
magistrate as Mob. as a Protestant. (Cheers.) Mr. Fagan,
wile is new no more, called attention to the investigation
into the University of Dublin, and said that all the recom-
mendations had not been carried into effect. My nobl3
friend nrelerteok that question, and we did found some ad-
ditional scholarships, which were thrown open to members
of the Roman Catholic religion. (Hear, hear.) lam not
ashamed to have advised and ter approve of that measure.
(Hear, hear.) If the Roman CatholieS prefer to come to
.the ancient untversity whi6h I represent they will be
heartily welcome; they will meet with no insult, no discour-
tesy ; they will inform their minds by the study of the
noble works of antiquity, and will, come to public -life better
prepared for the duties which they have to discharge.
That has been our cananet with reference to Irish measures;
and if the people ese contented with them, that is the highest
praise which the Government can receive. The hon. and
lestmed member for Cork (Mr. Serjeant Deasy) very feel-
ingly objected to two appointments—those of the Chan-
cellor and the Attorney-General. That. was very natural.
He thinks that those officers might be changed with advan-
tage, 'and be possesses both the abilities and the inclination
to undertake their duties. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Ho
asked me what the criminal code is te be. A measure has
been prepared establishing one criminal statute law for
England and Ireland. Th conspiracy to murder qnestion
and some others are dealt with in that measure, which,
while it reduces the oasts in which offences are to be
punished by death, simplifies and consolidates the law ;
tlaus accomplishing that which, under the administration
of the noble viscount, the Statute Law Commissioners
could never effect. Was it, then, Worthy of the right hon.
baronet,—is it worthy of eminent men in this country to
try to raise against Ina the religious question in Ireland ?
(Hear, hear.) We have not compromised our faith or our
religion, We hold both sacred, but we have learnt to think
we can maintain both with perfect sincerity and consistency,
with charity and justice to all 'classes of our fellow country-
men; and I am of opinion that the people of Ireland will,
when they are once satisfied of that, be as willing to give their
confidence to the Protestant gentry of that country as to
any other set of politicians. Never forget the Income-tax.
Never forget the conduct of the right hon. gentleman the
member for Wells, who, immediately before the debate
on the budget of 1852, penned up a small number of Irish
members in a corner, and told them that they might be sure
the Income-tax would never be extended to Ireland. (Hear,
hear.) They rejected the budget, they destroyed the Go-.
vernment, and they got in return the income-tax and a
personal explanation. (Cheers.) Recollect that when you
give your votes, and do justice to the present Government.
Sir R. Peel, when about to be condemned according to the
principles of Rhadamanthus, who punished first and in-
quired afterwards, once said in this house :

" I call upon you not to condemn before you have. heard,
to receive at least the measures I shall propose, to amend
them if they are defective, to extend them if they shall fall
short of your expectations; but at least to give me the op-
portunity of presenting them, that you yourselves may
consider and dispose of them."

I ask the house, is it just upon the invitation of the two
noble lords who have new composed their differences to de-
stroy the ministry before they have been heard ? (" Oh,
oh," and cheers.) And to do it, why ? Observe the fair
and manly argument of the hon. member for Birmingham,
how unlike the speech of the right hon. baronet 1 That hon.
gentleman said, " I do not object to the dissolution.
Ido not object to your foreign policy. Ido not
charge you with corruption at the elections, because
have no fact' to go upon." On what ground then, does
he quaercl with us Upon the one single ground of
Parliamentary reform. The hon. gentleman is about to
clascend from being the leader of a great mrty to become
the follower or assistant of the noble Ir,rd the member for
Tiverton. The noble lord will, no dr;ubt, be very comfort-
able when he has on one side of htn the right hon. member
for Ashton-under •Lyne, and 'i the other the hon. member
for Birmingham. (A law;sto Biography is a delightful
study. The hon, nan;ber for Birmingham is a master at
sketching charact"e, and the noble viscount the member for
Tiverton is 1:1,`,t behind him in that art. The hon. member
for Birmtgham has sketched the character of the noble
viK'tr:nt, and the noble viscount bas returned the cornpli-
'neut. The hon. gentleman said of the noble lord—

" I have observed the noble viscount's conduct ever since
I had the honour of a seat in this house, and the noble vis-
count will excuse me if I state the reason why I have often
opposed him. The reason is, that the noble viscount treats
all these questions, and the house itself, with such a want
of seriousness, that it has appeared to me that he has no
serious, or sufficiently serious, conviction of the important
business that so constantly comes before this house. I
judge the noble viscount as .a man who has experience, but
who with experience has not gained wisdom ; as a man who
has age, but who with age has not the gravity of age, and
who now, occupying the highest seat of vower, has (and I
say it with pain) not appeared affected with the due sense of
the responsibility that belongs to that elevated position.
We are now in the hands of these two noble lords. They are
the authors of the Russian war. It lies between them that
peace was not made at Vienna upon some proper terms, and
whatever disasters may be in store for this country, or for
Europe, they will lie at the doors of these noble lords."
(Cheers.) The noble viscount has favoured us. with his
view of the political character of the hon. member for Bir-
mingham. Speaking of that hon. gentleman, he said—

. "He (Mr. Bright) asks me to explain the meaning of the
balance' of power. Now, the hon. member for Manchester
and I differ so much upon almost every question involving
great principles (cheers), that I am afraid I shall be unable
to gratify him by complying with his request to explain the
meaning of the expression the balance of power.' The hon.
member, however, reduces everything to the question o
pounds, shillings, and pence, and I verily believe that if this
country were threatened with an immediate invasion likely
to end in its conquest, the hon. member would sit down,
take a piece of paper, and would put on one side of the
account the contributions which his Government would
• require from him for the defence of the liberty and in-
dependence of the country, and ho would put on the other
the probable contributions which the general of the in-
vading army might levy upon Manchester (laughter) ;
and if ho found that on balancing the account it would be
cheaper to be conquered—(renewed laughter)—than to be
laid under contributions for defence, he would give his vote
against going to war for the liberties and independence of
the country rather than bear his share in the expenditure
which it would entail."

(Laughter and cheers.) Now, sir, I think that a coalition
of persons who entertain these agreeable opinions of each
other will form a Ministryof which England may be proud.
I entertain no doubt that the noble lord and the hon. gentle-
man will enter upon their duties each with a solemn sense
of his responsibility and a firm determination never to yield
to anything said by his colleague. The hon. member for
Birmingham has a great horror of war, but the members of
his philanthropic sect have a peculiar way of making war
in their own fashion. I remember hearing a story of a
Quaker who, being on board a ship which was attacked by
pirates, and finding one of them boarding the vessel, clasped
him round the waist and dropped him overboard, saying
mildly, " Friend, thou hadst no business here." (A laugh.)
And in justice to the hon. member for Birmingham I must
say that I have no doubt that if an enemy touched our
shores, he would be found among our volunteers, and that
if he id not fire a rifle he would wield a bludgeon with no
little execution. The policy of the hon. member is one of
neutrality, but his neutrality means a general disarmament
of the country. (Hear, hear.) Ile says that he will vote
for the noble viscount because there is no danger from Aus-
tria or Sardinia ; he has no suspicion of any other country,
and the best way to show that we have no suspicion is to
break up our army, dispose of our ships, and disband our
honour of offoEotngoflan and
sailors. (No, no, and cheers.) Is that the policy of the
l not allow the
noble viscount ? Why, there is not a more bellicose Mini-
tsoterbtehainuv ialeded,lineor herwoud
oit desecrated
enemy. The policy of the noble viscount and that of
hen. member for Birmingham are wide as the poles
asunder. Why, then, does the hon. member
noble lord ? He says to the present Government,supjrnow
the
very well thz.t I cannot gain my objects through
I never shall be able to carry out my views while know
very ;
you are in
power, and therefore I am determined that you shall
change
places with the noble lord." The hon,
gentleman in effect
says, "1 will make the noble lord the member for Tiverton
Minister, in order that I may squeeze what I can out of
him. When I have done that I will
then, like Warwick,
kill him and go on breaking Ministry after Ministry,
until I have accom r h up
darling object
of is ed that which is the
of my li •
fe. (Hear.) Now that is a clear and intelligible
policy, and it is manfully avowed. I cannot help congratu-
lating the hon. gentleman as well as
eman
the right hon. member
for might hon. gent
Ashton and the 1 the member for
Wilts, who signed the requisition convening the meeting
which took place at Willis's Rooms, on the prospect of the
entire unanimity of feeling which is likely to pervade the
Government of which they are to be members, and upon the
circumstance that while they are prepared to agree on
matters; of principle, they are perfectly ready to set aside
mere matters of detail; such, for instance, as the ballot.
(Cheers.) The speech which was made on that question by
the late Attorney-General in the course of last session must
no doubt have been very. flattering to the feelings of the noble
vicouut, in whose Administration he served, while he must
have been equally flattered to find that his own remarks
upon the same occasion were characterised by one of the
staunchest of his adherents (Mr. Berkeley) as "complete
rubbish." (Laughter.) For my own part, I have read with
no little regret certain statements which have been made as
to the constitution of that future Administration which the
noble viscount appears so anxious to construct. I have
seen placarded the names of more than one hon. and right
hon. gentleman, members of the Liberal party, who, it is
said, aro to be consigned to political extinction. The noble
viscount, it seems, is about to take, not a cordial, but, it is
to be hoped, a respectful farewell of his old friends, and to
find his new colleagues below the gangway. (Hear, heay.)
That is not a course which is likely to enlist the sympathies
of an united party, such as that to which I have the honour
to belong. (Cheers.) We have stood by one another in
the.
the conflict and we certainly should not dream of placard
ing the names of those gentlemen in our ranks who had
or saying to them "A
to their leaders,
always been true
new Ministry is to be formed by the sacrifice of the most
respectable mem • b of the old." (Cheers.) But, perhaps,
en
domewhat presumptuous in me to advert to a subject of
it
tbiiss delicate nature. (A laugh.) I shall content myself with
saying further that the question upon which you are called
upon to decide by the noble mover of the amendment under
discussion , is hether • as matters stand, the existing Ad-
ministration is entitled to your confidence. With respect
to the answer which you will return to that question I have
come to a different conclusion from that at which the noble
viscount opposite seems to have arrived. I confidently an-

ticipate that your verdict will be pronounced in favour of
the Governmeilt;__ (Loud cheerii.):
Mr. M. GIBSON moved the adjournment of the debate.
The hOusc adjourned at ,20 tainuteato 1 o'clock.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCII.

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TATTERSALL'S---THrLsnAx.
Not more than:half a dozen subsc4bors. were present,
and the only 14 laid was 500 to 20 agst Thormanby for the
Derby, 1860.