The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-04 00:00:00

rHE SUN,
.LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 4, 1 7

authorities had expressed a very strong opinion. They
infinitely preferred that the penalties should be absolute
and that no excuses whatever should ad.eitted on the
part of the contractors. With thA view they were pre-
pared to give a larger sum for the service, and they paid
the extra, amount in the way of insurance, for this
system was found to act as a premium, and a very high
one too, upon regularity. In the present case the
contractors were bound to pay a penalty of 1001.
for every day's delay in finding a vessel fit to go to
sea after the time appointed. They were, moreover,
bound to pay a penalty of 50/. if the mail was delayed
24 hours after the maximum number allowed for each
voyage ; 100/. for the next 24 hours ; 1507. for the thiiel,
and so on until the whole allowance for that particular
voyage was swallowed up. Now, he (the noble duke)
might remark that the Peninsular and Oriental Company
had in point of fact never sent in a proper tender at all ;
beeause, although these penalties were distinctly stated
in the conditions, the Peninsular Company declined to
subject the members to any penalties except for avoida-
ble delays. Tho noble earl had said that the tender of
the Peninsular was lower than that of the Australian
Company ; but in point of fact the Peninsular only
agreed to carry the mail from Suez, whereas the other
company included in their tender the carriage of the
mail from England. The papers relating to this contract
had been nearly twelve months before the house, and
the noble earl had never till now said a word on the sub-
ject, the noble earl must, therefore, have committed
what was a very serious fault in a seaman, he must have
kept a bad look-out. (A laugh.) It was hardly fair to
say that the company had broken down. No doubt the
Oneida had broken down, but the rest of the con-
tract had been performed with considerable success.
Besides, let their lordships look at the consequences
to the company of the Oneida's misfortune. They
had forfeited the whole payment due to them for the
voyage, namely, 7,7841. The second voyage occupied
1,246 hours, which was 24 hours more than the stipu-
lated time. The delay not amounting to an entire day
there was no penalty. The third voyage was performed in
1,257 hours, which was actually 39 hours under the time,
and the company received a premium of 30/. The
fourth and last voyage took 1,413 hours, which was
117 hours in excess, and a fine of 5001. bad been levied
upon the company in consequence. Now if the govern.
went had accepted the tender of the Peninsular Com-
pany, they would not have been able to claim these
penalties ; for it was perfectly possible that the co.npany
might have represented the break-down of the Oneida as
an unavoidable disaster. At all event i there might have
been continual disputes between the company and the
government. The noble earl truly said that the amount
paid for the conveyance of these mails was very con-
siderable ; but it should be borne in mind that half of it
was paid by the colony. Ne doubt, if the company was
in the state in which the noble earl described it to be,
the effect of the penalties would rapidly bring the con-
tract to an end. The contract, however, bad been only
in operation for little more than nine months, and at
the present time the noble earl was hardly jus ified in
speaking of it in the manner in which it had been cha-
racterised by him. (Hear.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT•

did not want to conceal their votes but to vote openly.
It was very hard that these men should have no share
whatever in the elective franchise. In this great town
and most of the large towns throughout the country
they were for the most part lodgers—scarcely one of them
occupying a 101. house. If, without too much extending
the franchise, any means could be taken to give these
men the vote it would on every ground, not merely on
the ground of justice to them, but for the benefit of the
system, be a consummation most devoutly to be wished.
Some persons suggeeted a 101. franchise with one year's,
THIRD READINGS. land a 51. franchise with two years' residence ; but he be-
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the following 1 lieved that whether it was a 10/. franchise or a 51. &an-
bills were read a third time :—Victoria Gas, Swansea 1 chise very much the same class of persons would be re-
Harbour, Trent and Swansea Dock Company, North I turned as now. He thought the franchise should be ex-
Western Railway, West London and Crystal Palace I tended to the clergy—rectors and curates—medical men,
Railway, Caledonian Railway (Lines to Granton), Mid officers in the army and navy, apothecaries, and to lite-
Sussex Railway, Metropolitan Cattle South Eastern racy and scientific men generally. It had been suggested
Railway (Greenwich junction) to Dartford. that in each county, city, or borough, containing a cer-
THE MILITIA. tain number of educated men of the description he re-
Lord PANMURE said, before their lordships pro. ferred to, a member might be chosen from this class, the
(seeded to public business, be wished to bring in a bill electors of that class voting for a member of the class,
for the embodiment of the militia—(bear, hear, from the without, however, losing their other franchise as house-
Opposition)—between this and the 25th of Marcb, with- holders or freeholders. It had been suggested that 70
out the necessity of calling Parliament together upon members might well be chosen by this class, and
that embodiment taking place. It would not be ne- this view had been strongly represented to the
cessary to present the bill, if it were not that the law noble lord at the head of the Government. He
h
required that, in case of the embodiment of the militia, held it to be absolutely necessary to maintain inviolate
Pal liament should be summoned together within fourteen
the distinction between county and city or borough re-
days from such embodiment. In the present state of Presentatives, and should regard, not only with jealousy
but with aversion, any such plan as that which so often
meat to meet during the recess. The Government have
of affairs it does not seem de-irable to compel perils-
lately occupied the attention of the other house of Par-
Lament for letting in upon the counties the 101. voters,
always the power of calling Parliament together if the
t
necessity for such a step existed. If this were a bill fur thereby reducing to a nullity the votes of the proprietary
the embodiment of the militia on account of a war with body- The distinction to which he referred was an es.
a foreign country, such a proceeding would no doubt be sential part of the mixed constitution, and he should re-
necessary. There seemed to be an impression abroad Bard it as a blow all but fatal to that constitution if
that the Government required power to embody the there were no longer to be county members, but borough
militia, but he begged to state that the Government re-
members ; for that appeared to him to be an inevitable
quired no such power, if they were enabled to meet par-
consequence of swamping the counties with 101. house•
liament within a certain time after such embodiment.
hold votes. No doubt there was great hardship in the
The circumstances under which the present bill fact that a man having a 101. house in a borough was
was considered necesearry, were these. The militia entitled to a vote, whereas the man having a 101. house
in the county was not entitled to a vote; but their sys-
ant only gave the Government power of embo-
dying the militia in expectation of insurrection or inva- tem was full of such hardships. It was a great hardship
lion of the country. In the year 1854 Parliament passed that the 1,340,000 inhabitants of the West Riding
shill to enable the country to have the advantages of a should return only two members, whilst the county of
militia force embodied in the event of a war with a Rutland, with a population of only 24,000, returned two
foreign country. Neither of these things existed at pre- members. It had been suggested to divide the country
sent. But a state of things did exist in our eastern pos- into electoral districts, as in France, and he was at
sessions which occasions as great a drain of the enforce- one time inclined to adopt that view himself as the
menus of this country as it we were carrying on la only means of grappling with corruption and bribery.
foreign war. It is thereforenecessary, under such circum- But he' was glad to perceive from the proceedings
stances, to supply the vacua a created by the demands before the election committees now going on that
made by India; for more regiments. In order nothing like general corruption or bribery was found to
to do this, H.M. Government had determined, in the prevail at the late elections, which result was chiefly to
first place, to raise ten battalions to supply be ascribed to the competence of the parties to be wit-
the place of those who are gone—to raise the regiments nesses under the act of 1851. They often had heard of
at home from 841. rank and file to 1,000, and to raise the great evil of universal suffrage, and to it he lately
those in India from 1,000 to 1,200- All these al- heard it said that the laying prostrate of the political
terations can be made without going beyond the pro- liberties of France was to be ascribed. He was as much
visions of the present Mutiny Act. As the house was opposed to universal suffrage if applied to the choice of
aware, the ultimate charge of these forces would a man, an officer, or a measure, as any man could be.
fall on the East India Company, and not upon the home He believed it could lead to nothing but evil, but he
revenue. At the same time the existing crisis rendered it begged to say that the liberties of France did not lie
some hat difficult for the East India Company to raise Prostrate before universal suffrage, but before the recon
these new battalions. The drainage from this country lections of those dreadful scenes in 1793 and 1794, which
of her regular troops, in the interim, was so no man could even name without shuddering—when the
great as to render it necessary for the Government mob, the monster tyrant, ruled France—the mob, that
to call out and embody certain militia regiments worst of tyrants, which had all the bad propensities of
tyrants, their cruel nature and vile caprices ; so that
from which he was quite prepared to say they might ex-
pect to derive the same good services as had been refl. one hardly knew whether most to dread it when ele-
dered by the same Lumber of the regular army. It was vated by hope or depressed by fear—when intoxicated
not absolutely necessary that because the power was with success or in the paroxesms of despair. There was
given that it must be Exercised, but it would only be a later triumph of the mob in 1848 and 1349, which
used as necessity require though not so cruel or disgraceful as those of 1793, yet
d. His noble friend in the other
house would present an estimate of 200,0001. to provide produced scenes to be deplored, while ail that followed
for the expenses of those forces between the present those scenes showed the utter incapacity—he said it witb
period and tee 31 _t of March. The noble lord concluded regret—of their excellent friends across the Channel fur
by moving the first readiug of the bill, carrying on parliamentary government as we did. What
The Earl of lIARDWIUKE cordially agreed with the was the cause of this difference ? It was owing first to
noble lord as to the necessity of embodying the militia, the difference in the characterjof the two nations ' for
but like alt the other acts of the Government it hail whereas the people of England were inclined to hull by
Leen decided on too late. It seemed to be a fatality with that which was established and,handed down from farmer
the present Government to be always a little too late, ages as the fruit of experience, and therefore desereiag
Earl GRANVILLE thought that the Government of their confidence—no doubt they carried this too far,
were not open to such criticisms. They felt it was ne- for they were much too slow in remedying defects—the
cessary to defer the enlistments until after harvest people of France, on the contrary, seemed to object to
operations.' everything that was established. Whilst we, in this
The Es lof DERBY did not offer the slightest objec. country, were inclined to think that " whatever is,
Lion to the bill, lie only thought that Government is riglit,"the people of France were disposed to think that
could have easily seen the necessity for this measure at whatever is, is wrong. One of the witty writers of that
an earlier period. country, Paul L. Courier, said be was the only man in
Lord PANMURE thought that it was not possible to Fiance who had the good quality of not believing that he
have taken this step sooner, ought to be king of the country. It was a feeling in the
The bill was read a first time. French people that they wished to bring down all to
THE REFOR.M BILL. their own rank, not of raising others who were below
Lord BROUGHAM rose to move for a return of the them to their own rank. He spoke of course not of all
number of electors in every county and division of a Frenchmen, but that this feeling was widely spread
county, city, and borough in the United Kingdom. He amongst the French nation. He wished the French
said that he considered it his duty, from the share he bad would imitate us in our constancy and adherence to the
e
in the measure of 1831.32, to state one or two circum-
stablished order of things; the want of that had been
stances connected with that measure, alio to call the the cause of all their revolutions. In this country men
attention of the Government to what had been the results of all parties were determined to sacrifice their own opi-
of it. It had been announced that it was the intention nions rather than do anything to injure the working of
of the Government to present next session a bill for the system. The result of this composition of forces was
Parliamentary reform, one having a tendency to effect a diagonal motion such as we witnessed in our political
a change in the present system of representation. He affairs. In France the forces were in direct antagonism ;
trusted the bill would receive their most anxious consi- each party carried out its own views as far as it had
deration. There was a great difference in the situation power to do, and sought the destruction of itsopponents,
of the country at present to what it was in 1830, when The inevitable consequence was revolution. To avoid a
the last bill was brought in. It was then said there was repetition of these horrors as witnessed in 1793, and
no feeling in the country in favour of Parliamentary re- also the'abuse of Parliamentary government which oc-
form, and he was taunted in that house with the fact mined in 1846, as well as to avoid the evils of socialism,
that in the canvas of the county of York which he had the French people had submitted to a strong and able
just gone through be had never heard the word reform government, which bad preserved peace and tranquilldy
mentioned. He was obliged to admit the fact ; but cir- to all. He hoped they would long continue to flourish
under such a government. The views he hod propounded
cumstances soon changed, and every man in England
talked of notbing but reform. That was owing, in some were his own sincere opinions. He bad deemed it his
measure, to the change of Government, and the an- duty as one of the authors of the Reform Bill to protest
nouncement they made of their intention to take up the against any measure which went to alter the constitution
question. It might be said that, on the present coca- of the House of Commons, by making it more demo-
Bien, a like announcement would produce the same cratic ; he considered that it was made sufficiently so by
effect. He doubted it, however; for the reasons which the measure of 1832, and be protested against any fur-
then existed were no longer in operation, Public feel ther change in that direction. He concluded by moving
ing was then excited by the long postponement of the for the returns above specified.
measure and the refusal of the Government to consider Earl GRANVILLE said that all parties must have
it ; and the declaration of the Duke of Wellington been gratified at hearing the opinions of the noble lord,
against it, and the fact that all the large towns—Man- which were entirely his own. He (Lord Granville) had
cheater, Sheffield, Birmingham, and Leeds—were entirely not had any communication with the Government on
unrepresented, coupled with the gross abuses at the else- the subject.
tiona in the small towns and the corruption amongst the The motion was then agreed to.
freemen ; ail these causes operated to produce all over THE AUSTRALIAN MAILS.
the «wintry a desire for a large measure of Parliamen- The Earl of HARD WICKE called the attention of the
tary reform. He entirely denied that the announcement house to the contract for carrying the Australian mails.
Of the Government would produce such a feeling on the Thecolunists had long suffered great inconvenience from
present occasion. It might be a great advantage to have tho way in which the postal service was conducted, but
the country in a calm state for the consideration of the sub- he did not blame the Government for this, ho merely
ject ; he admitted there were some defects in the former wished to draw their attention to the matter, Great de
bill which might be safely and securely remedied, and he rangement had been caused in the service by the war. As
would rather see a measure to supply one or two defects soon as peace was restored the Government had endea-
suggested by and arising out of them, than any great or voured to put the service on a proper footing. He found
general plan of what would be called a sweeping measure that last year the cost of the postal service was 572 390/
of reform. He entirely denied the proposition thatDIVORCE, dtc. BILL.
the while this year it was 785,3561, Condtracts had been en-, Mr. WARREN gave notice that on the motion for
former hill was a failure. Two classes of persons held tered into by the Government berbten tender, and, as is neon! going into committee on the Divorce, &c., Bill to-mor-
taat opinion ; one consisted of those who were strong in such cases, they did not bind
theves. to accept the row, he would move that the house go into committee
opponents of the bill, and who considered it a revou- lowest tender. In this case they themselves
highest tender, on that day three months. (Cries of oh a tionary rn-easure, and the other consisted of those who but along with that they took the worst THE JEWS BILL.
considered it did not go far enough, and called it a mock . forming the tender, and after theydiectovemi'edaltshaotf tpheery. Sir F. THESIGER asked the noble lord the Mem-
measure of reform. He denied altogeaher it was either had sought to bolster up the company whom the ten•
ther for the City of London, supposing the house granted
a mock or moderato measure ; it was a very large one, der was given. Two companies bad tendered
owacst
taking
sevening a select committee to consider the mode of
and some Eisen, and they supporters of the Govermein, the Peninsular and Oriental, which possessed soon: . the oath by members, what he proposed to do
thought it went rather too far. He entirely differed the finest ships in the worm, and they offered to perform with his oaths bill that stood for a second reading to.
from those who contended it was no reform at all, tee- the contract with several of their best ships, They also night.
cause it left so much undone. Hie answer to this was, hod the advantage of having three of these vessels on the Lord J. RUSSELL said he should on that occasion
a single date—the 10.;h of April, 1348. He relied on other side of the Cape—already on the ground, so that postpone its record reading for a month. the 10th of April, 1848. If the bill had not become law they were prepared to undertake the contract itninedi- LIABILITY OF TRUSTEES.
that day would not have pa-eted over them so quietly and ately from both ends. They proposed to undertake it for Mr. HADFIELD asked the Attorney-General whe-
p; aceably as it had done. Some persons were of opinion 135,0001, to terminate at Melbourne, or 140,000/, to ter- ther he intended to bring in a bill this session or the
that the machinery of tee Reform Bill had not turned minate at Se dns The company was perfectly capable in next to relieve trustees from certain liabilities at law in
out a very perfect manufacture; that that manufacture, every way of
performingY the duty. A certain company, respect of trust property, consequent on acts done by
namely, the El luiie of Commons, was not so excellent as ca ling itself the Australian Mail Packet Company, them in the reasonable exercise of their judgment, and
it might be. That was the opinion of some. He did not offered to perform the duty for 185,0001., and agreed to without fraud ; and from the acts of co-trustees, de-
share that opinion, and he hoped that the House of Cone- subject itself to higher penalties; but the difference in the posits with bankers, and other dealings, such as would
moos, as at present constituted, would be found te de- amount of the contract was more than sufficient to cover be reasonable and proper in the conduct of private busi-
serve the confidence of the country and of their lorilseip., any possible penalty, They proposed to place at the ser- nese I
lie believed that one of the great defects of the Reform vice of the Crownelcaertain vessels, equal in tonnage to The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that under the
Act was that of requiring men to be returned on vacat- those of the Peninsular r and Oriental Company; but of the circumstances he should not introduce a bill this see-
ing their seats on accession to office. He thought that vessels named two were not even built, and none of them mon. He would give the subject his earnest attention
in any new reform bill this should no longer be requheel were on the other side of the water. One, the Oneida, was during the recess, and bring in a bill next session. (Hear.)
—at a 1 events, that if the persm vacated the seat on reported ready for service on the Ist August, 1856 ; but
appointment to the first office it should net be necessary the Parliamentary return showed that she was not ready LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES
to vacate it on promotion in office. He recollected— for sea till October. On 18th October she was surveyed, (IRELAND) BILL.
and with much pain—that the law measures which were and went to sea on the 20. h. In answer to a question from Lord R. GROSVENOR,
In the other house it
brought forward in the year 1834 were abiolutely sus- ' had been stated by the First Lord of the Admiralty that Mr. WHITESIDE said that if he could not bring
gone to sea. Mr. on the bill to-morrow night, be would give the noble
periled altogether, because the then Solicitor-General, he did not know how it was she h
Wilson afterwards stated that the lied
of the surveyor
on his being appointed to the office of Attorney-General,lord no further trouble about it this session.
lost his seat for Dudley, and the consequence was had not been made to the Admiralty until after the chip COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LONDON AND
that every one of these , law bills was stopped, had sailed. The fact was she had been reported as DUBLIN.
He did not think there would be much difficulty on that totally unfit for sea, but she had trailed, to take her . Mr. REPTON asked the Secretary of the Treasury
point, and in connection with that he thought it would chance with the mails.S he broke down, some portion if he would lay upon the table of the house copies of the
be a great improvement that men in office should have of her machinery having given way. At length she correspondence between the Government and the Lon-
seats in Parliament without votes. That was the case in found her way under canvasei, Melbourne, and another
occurred.entic The company had don and North Western Railway Company, relative to
almost all other countries, and the only exception to the break-down afterwardsgoththe improved communication between London and
sular and Oriental Cern-
ed by 45,
rule was England. His noble friends Lind Grey and been obliged toDublin ?
Lord Auckland had no doubt whatever when the Reform pony and borrow one of theirn vessels, the Shale, to Mr. WILSON said he should have no objection to
Bill was under discussion that this would be a great im. enable them to carry out the contract, for which they lay the conditions on the table. Copies of the correspon-
provernent. The necessity of a constantly renewed re- had obtained an amount larger deuce would be too voluminous to present to the house.
gtstratinn was another defect of the Reform Act. The other company had demand 000/. than the
. e- . CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND,
occupation of a 101. house was required as a proof of the company was not only oblis,,,entt to borrow ships, but they
Jens was not all ; this
Mr. WISE asked the Secretary to the Treasury what
respectability of the voter, and as the man who once oc- were reduced to ask 0
copied
l'
-e Peninsular and Oriental, but in this was the total amount of the money advanced to Mr.
a 10/e house must necessarily be the same man and afterwards t eariard's Company to join them,
w
'e
successful. Meantime the colonies were Ouseley on account of the Monte Videan Government ;
when he came to occupy a Si. house, it was a great error they were ne not to have a man once a voter always voter, Itsuffering ' by whose authority the advances were made from the
ro, eubetantitablbly, a was e from the irregularities of the service • Civil Contingencies Fund ; and what prospect . Ulu- there was
in the counties. The Reform Act gave me' -
..ely this miserable company hit upon another plan
the judges
of the repayment of the 373951. stated to be the balance
ters. lie had considerable
of appointing the revising banes- t . .
o relieve themselves from their embarrassments,
Packet Company to now due to this country; and whether it was the practice
Be thought
objection to giving that re_,vrer I
to the judges,
' They asked the West India Steam Treasury for
patronage to the judgesought it was a bad thi- te . •
; that it was bad "eg o give join them in their contract, and also attempted to get paymentsof the Foreign. Office to draw on the
of this character to foreign Governments with-
bed for the profession,
ttis,nd not ala.
vice, Ile underetoo I , s ior the judges, two years added to the existing contract of the latter out the consent and knowledge of Parliament /
WILSON said that the total amount
sgood for the s,eir company. The contract of the West India Packet Corn. Mr, t
was
__ granted
meet guided the choice :" fa'..euritiednY ratherg than ju g- pang was made in 1851, at a very exorbitant rate, 270,0001. as it alight, the ts nt neatly ins.
..to the Monte Videan Government . 5.0,9091. Of that
,es '"ins shoal b stances ;bu, be that a year ; and the effect of this arrangement would be, 37,3951. was advanced from the Civil Contingencies
bi 1. Anotn
h. defect of the Ref.: remedied in any tasw 1 that for the two contracts a sum of 445,0001. a year would Fund. Means were being taken to induce the Monte
too !nap; freemen in existence. ?Frio,-
wet was, that it left be paid. It had been recommended that all the existing Videan Government to repay the money, and
ne'aaona made to a friend of his
who aweasone of the con- contracts should be revised before renewal ; and he had
nothing would be left undone to ensure that
:note. nese freemen were not the best voteriv now no no doubt if the West India contract were a:lowed to
}Teen and in general they were the worst ;
morne
cane, re- I expire, there would be plenty of parties who would take result. The Civil Contingencies Fund was
established to meet a sudden emergency, and if the
tmin prevailing amongst thorn than any other rt'ie- ,it kr 100,0001. a year, Unless the government tenni- Foreign Minister wanted money he applied to the Tree-
voters, He understood that the state of things in class
Ireland I nated this contract at the earliest period it would be sury, who if they saw fit, granted the money. This was
was much worse than in this country. He would there- I most discreditable to the parties concerned. The considered a legitimate application of the money, and
fore restrict this class of voters to the extent of abolishing government had the power at once to terminate the the Treasuary advanced it.
them altogether. lie thought it might be very passible ,In sract, for the company had broken the conditions. Mr. WISE asked how it was that the amount had
,uc la a case there to redeem the pledge of a new reform, without greater or propping u ought to be no patching and been kept out of the votes ever since 1851.
more extensive changes in the present system. Amongst governmet &from%) companies by means of agents in a Mr. WILSON said that this was not a vote of money.
the more respectable class who now had no votes were form a duty, a Wbere a company contracted to per- It was a sum that had been advanced to be repaid. If
the skilled artisans. lie did not mean the common day ought to dierniene i was unable to do so, the government the hoe. member looked to last year's estimates, he
labourers, but the artisans skilled in crafts, most of whom hoped this statemtZnatnd go again into the market. He would find the sum entered in the Civil Contingencies
were men of great merit and intelligence ;many of whom progress in this mild put an end to any further List.
business, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked how it was Mr.
—as be well knew—were well educated, often endowed The Duke of ARGYLL pa with scientific knowledge ; all of whom, with hardly any mate the companies to which
the proposal to amalge ' Ouseley was permitted to advance this money to the
exception, were endowed with ability, talent, and :lilt. not been referred to the 0.. the noble earl alluded had Monte Videan Government?
But apart from their talents, their skill ind their value, authorisation. If such a post-office authorities for their Mr. WILSON said he was acting under instructions
the
y were amongst the most independent''in conditions ld at I •
men the well east be required t ' me a - I
proposal were made so ow from the Foreign Office at the time.
community.Theyo be inserted in I Mr. DISRAELI said that Mr. Ouseley was Minister
were more independent, with few the contract. The mein question raised
exceptions, of their masters than their masters of them, earl was whether the Admiralty andtheTby the noble Plenipotentiary at the time acting under peculiar cir-
reasury were cumstances.
seed he would venture to say that in no part of the cow,' •ustitied in their original contract for carrying CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.
try had a cry ever been heard from that class in j
.s favour of Australian mail. Now, the noble earl had passed the
secret, voting. Generallyover a Several of the members of the house were appointed
'Peaking they treated' he hal very itn )orlaut platten namely, the questionof
lot with cuutetapt, because in 99 out, of 100 ties, I ' • , ~ , penal- to hold a conference with the House of Lords upon the
cases they and thin was a point tipou wtnon the post-office sub-
ject of au whitens to her Majesty, under the provi.

----
HOUSE OF LORDS--(YEsTERDAY.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool.
sack at five o'clock.
Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from
Portsmouth against the Thames Conservancy Bill.
Lord COLVILLE presented a petition from a place
in Scotland against the Parochial Schools (Scotland)
Bill.

The Earl of DERBY said that if the Government in-
sisted on the particular form of levying the penalties,
which they seemed to prefer, the companies taking
these contracts would be certain to cover themselves,
and more than cover themselves against any possible
loss. In the present case the government was paying
40,0001• a year additional for the sake of these absolute
penalties. The noble duke was in error with regard
to the relative extent of the services the two companies
offered to perform. If he would refer to the printed
tenders he would find that they both proposed to com-
vence the voyage at Sus x. The noble duke had passed
over what was the most important point in his noble
friend's question. He had not given any explanation
with regard to the Oueida's sailing with the mail, not-
withetanding the Government inspectors unfavourable
report. The noble duke might not be himself prepared
with an answer, but these questions were not put to the
Postmaster but to the Government,,and the Govern-
ment ought to be able to reply to them. The case was
a very simple one. Toe contract had been clearly
broken, and the Government might at any moment put
an end to it. If they did so and went into the market
kr a new tender, they would probably be able to make
a better and a more economical arrangement.
The Duke of ARGYLL had omitted to notice another
important difference in the two tenders. The Austra-
lian Company offered to perform the sea voyage in 39
days outward and 35 homeward, whereas the Peninsular
and Oriental only offered to do in 45 days outward and
43 homeward.

The following bills were aeveral'y advanced a stage :
County Court Judges' Salaries Bill—Read a first

time.

Land Tax Commissioners' Names Bill—Read a second

time.

Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland) Bill ; Caledonian
and Crinan Canals Billy ; Land and Assessed Taxes, &c.
(Scotland) Bill ; Christchurch (West Hartlepool) Bill—
Committed.

Crown, &c., Suits (Scotland) Bill—Amendments re.
ported.

Glebe Lands (Ireland) Bill ; Boundaries of Land (Ire-
land) Bill—Read a third tame and passed.

FRAUDULENT SALES ACT.

The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition
from a society at Glasgow, complaining of this act,
which was passed last year. It appeared to him that
the petitioners were under some misapprehension, but
the subject should receive his best attention.
LUNACY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Lin-
litbgow against this bill.

Their lordships rose at ten minutes before eight.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTBRDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
SLIGO AND HUNTINGDON ELECTIONS.

The Clerk of the Crown attended at the table of the
house and amended the returns for Huntingdon County
and Sligo Borough, in accordance with the decision of
the Committees. After which Mr. Fellowes for Hunt-
ingdon, and Mr. Wynno for Sligo, took the oaths and
their seats in the room of Mr. Heathcote and Mr. P.
Somers unseated on petition.

sions of the 15 and 16 Vic., cap. 51, during which time
the business of the house was suspended. On the re-
turn of the members, Mr. MASSEY reported that the
members had net Earl Granville, as representing the
House of Lords, and delivered to his lordship an ad-
dress agreed to Ly the house, which required the c'ncur-
rence of the Lords, and they had accordingly handed
the address to his lordship.
Colonel W. PATTEN asked the President of the
Board of Control, whether there was any objection to
the following returns being annually laid before Parlia-
ment previous to the Indian financial statement :-
ISt. A return of the sums expended in each year in
British India in the construction of roads and bridges
and works of navigation ; specifying the districts in
which they have been constructed, and the length and
expense of new road and navigation in each district.
2d. A similar return as regards the construction of
works of irrigation, distinguishing those which serve the
purpose of navigation and irrigation, and including the
construction or improvement of water tanks.

entitle all the gentlemen cf the lOW rnewben cf
the hou.e, to he upon the committee.

Lord J. RUSSELL perfectly coincided in that view.
The SPEAKER—T?Ie correct mode of potting the
qut;stiqn will be in tine manner sugli,,e>te I by the hon.
and learned gentleman the member for Shetlie!d. In
that case the question will stand thus—that the corn
mittee do cmsist of 25 members nominated by the
house, and of all the members of the long robe members
of this house. The names of those hon. and learned
gentlemen will of course be added to the resolution.
(Hear, hear.)

Mr. HILDYARD remarked that, among the 25
names proposed, there were many members of the long
robe.

rdiug of the proposed enactment. The clause as it
stood woull disentitie fr3tn compensati.m all who might
receive office under the act.

The SPEA.KER—Twenty-five members will be no-
minated by the house, and all the members of the house
who are also members of the long robe will likewise be
upon it.

'Mr. CONNOLLY was at a loss to understand what
question was ready before the house.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY remarked that there were
97 gentlemen members of the house who were also mem-
bers of the long robe. The committee would therefore
consist of upwards of 100, and he did not think that it
would do much work in the dog-day 3.
The SPEIKER, put the question in the form he had
himse!f suagested.

Mr. V. SMITH said there was no objection to supply
the returns asked for. They were made periodically,
but he could not Fay if they could be made up so accu-
rately as the hon. member required.

Mr. COX insisted on tho propriety of the words " le-
gal profession" being substituted for " long robe," so
that he, and other attorneys, members of the house,
might help the barristers in their deliberations.
Mr. WARREN thought it would be a great benefit to
have a couplo of attorneys upon the committee, as they
might fee the gentlemen of the long robe. (Laughter.)
Mr. HADFIELD thought that he ought to be on the
committee.

Tho aglow:talent was then withdrawn, and the words
"of qui value" were inserted at the suggution of the
ATTORNEY-GENERAL.

Mr. HADFIELD callel attention to some of the
enormous claims for compensation which had been put
in. In one case a gentleman, who was a registrar at
Chester with an income of 5,0001. a-year, had received
no less than 112,1401. in 20 years, and yet had the mo-
desty to come forward and c rnplain that he was to be
cut down to a retiring arowance of 600/. a-year. The
hon. gentleman moved that the proviso appended to the
29th clause be omitted.

Mr. FITZROY thought the best course for the house
to adopt would be to agree to the resolution as amended
by the Speaker, after which it would be competent for
any gentleman to move that the names of the hon. mem-
ber for Finsbury and the hon. member for Sheffield be
added to the committee.
Sir F. THESIGER said that course could not be
adopted without notice.

Mr. HENLEY said that among the names proposed
by the noble lord there were already 15 members of the
long robe. He wished therefore, to know if the resole
Lion in its present form would exclude them from the 25
to be nominated by the house, and place the house in the
predicament of having to select 15 other gentlemen to
supply their place.

Mr. SALISBURY defended the Rev. Chancellor
Raikes, the gentleman referred to by the hon, member
for Sheffield, as the registrar of the Diocesan Court of
Chester. That gentleman personally superintended all
the duties belonging to his office to the entire satisfaction
of the public, and it was invidious to single him out for
comment.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that the gentleman in question
enjoyed an office for 20 years bringing in 5,0001 a-year,
and doing absolutely nothing for it. He lived 12 miles
from his place of business, and it was idle and absurd to
say that such a man was entttlsd to compensation. He
hoped the hon. and learned gentleman the Attorney-
General would resist such a rnon'trous proposition.
Col. SYKES asked whether the case of Mr. Raikes
cams udder the operation of the act 6 and 7 Wm. IV.
(1836) ?
The ATTORNEY-GENER A.L said that Mr. Raiktli
case came within the act 6 and 7 Win.lV. That act had
remained obst lete for 20 years, and he asked whether it
would be fair, inasmuch as the ecclesiastical courts bad
not been abolished by it, to take down the act and use it
against parties seeking compensation at the present day.
Mr. T. EGERTON said the doctrine laid down by
the Attorney-General was a new one ; but it behoved
the house to consider well the principle before they
admitted it.

LABOUCHEBE said the beet course at present
was to adopt the form of resolution su,ige-ted by the
Chair, leaving the point raised by the right hon. gentle-
man to be afterwards settled.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the substitu-
tion of the words " legal profession," for the words
" long robe," but he thought it better that the house
should agree to the resolution in its present shape.
Mr. BENTINCK, who was met with loud cries of
"Order, order," and "Spoke, spoke," rose to oppose
the resolution. He maintained that as the present was
a new question he had a right to address the house
upon it.
The SPEAKER ruled that the question was pre-
cisely the same as that before the house when the hon.
and gallant member last spoke.
Mr. BENTINCK considered it altogether a new
question, and thought the confusion in which the house
bad been labouring for the last 20 minutes ought to con-
vince the noble lord of his mistake in taking the unusual
course he was taking in reference to this matter.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was also of opinion that
the resolution had been altered.
Colonel KNOX wished the Speaker, as the highest
authority upon all points of order, would explain how
the question at present really stood.
The SPEAKER—Th re was some difficulty in the
proposition as it originally stood, t remove which I
suggested the insertion of a word. That suggestion the
noble lord rec,ived and moved it.
The resolution was then agreed to without a division.
Sir F. THESIGER said, as it would now be neces-
sary to strike out the names of the gentlemen of the long
robe which appeared in the notice given by the noble
lord, and as the house could not substitute other names
for them without some hon. gentleman giving notice to
that effect, he would suggest to the noble lord to post•
pone the nomination of the committee until to-morrow
(this day), and PO give the opponents of his scheme an
opportunity of having their views fairly represented
upon the committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the objection of the hon.
and learned gentleman the member for Stamford was alto-
gether owing to the uutortunate position which he occu-
pied, seeing that the mo=t eminent members of the party
with which he acted were in favour of the emancipation
of the Jews. He wished the committee which he pro-
posed should fairly represent both sides of the house, and
he did not know how he could omit the names of the right
hon. gentlemen the members for Buckinghamshire and
Droitwitch, and of the noble lord the member for King's
Lynn, all of whom were disposed to admit the Jews to a
seat in that house. (Hear.)
On the motion that Lord Palmerzton be a member of
the committee,
Mr. NE WDEGATE bad no opposition to offer to any
of the names proposed, but he did not wish to see the
existence of more than 200 members of that house
ignored. It was studiously endeavoured to represent to
the public that this was aeon est lfetween the two Houses
of Parliament, and that no member of aoy importance in
that house was opposed to it. (Hear, hear, and ironical
cheers) That was not the ease. There was a strong oppu-
sition to the admission of the Jews, and although some
of the hon. members upon the front bench were in favour
of it, still those who opposed it were headed by the real
and recognised leaders of the Conservative party. He
would therefore move as an amendment the adjourn-
ment of the debate.
Mr. SPOONE!Z seconded the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would be disinclined to
stand i❑ the way of the public business, and would, if
it met the convenience of the nobie lord the First L rrd
of the Treasury, postpone the ❑omination of the com-
mittee until to-morrow (this day).
Lord PALMERSTON said he considered that that
would be the most convenient course to follow, and to
take the nomination the first thing to-morrow.
Lord J. RUSSELL—At the evening sitting.
Mr. HENLEY said that among the 25 names pro-
posed there would be 13 who were not members of the
long robe, including in that 13 the right hon. gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Deptrtraent, and

Mr. ROEBUCK was also startled by the doctrine of
the Attorney-General. An act of Parliament was passed,
which distinctly stated that if this gentleman accepted
the office he should not be entitled to compensation ;
but, said the Attorney-Generel, Parliament made a pro-
mice and had not kept it. But this gentleman having
been kept in office—which was a benefit to him—for 20
years, at an income of from 5,000/. to 8,000/ a-year, he
now came to the house and asked for compensation.
(Hear.) There had been no promise made to this gentle.
man, but to the country. He would call upon the House
of Comnions to look there matters steadily in the face,
and refuse this compensation.
After some observations from Mr. Newdegate, Mr.
Barrow, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Mr. ROEBUCK asked whether his hon and learned
friend meant to divide the house on the subject. (Hear )
The committee must remember what they were doing.
They were destroying the effect of an act of Parliament,
and they would have some future Att )rney-General
saying that acts of Parliament like the present were ab-
solute, notwithstanding the provisions they contained.
Tne ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was extremely
invidious to select the case of one overpaid functionary,
and to neglect the cases of the many underpaid func-
tionaries of the same class. He should certainly divide
the committee upon the question.
The committee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority ---68
Mr. HADFIELD then moved an amendment to the
clause, to the effect that, in computing any allowance,
due consideration should be given to any office or situa-
tion retained by the party. •
The AT roRNEY.GENERA.L said that the compen-
sation was to be given at the discretion of the Treasury,
and of course they would take such circumstances
as those referred to in the hon. member's amendment
into consideration. The bill, besides, contained an ex-
prese proviso, which would meet the cases referred to.
The amendment was then negatived without a divi-
sion, and, after some further discussion, the clause was
agreed to.
On the clause being proposed by which the proctors
were to receive compensation,
Mr. MALINS said that the proctors unanimously felt
the privilege reserved to them, by having the exclusive
right of proving wills, was not worth preserving.
Mr. ROEBUCK objected to the principle of compen-
sation being extended to the proctors. They had done
no service for which they had not received an adeqaate
reward.

Mr. WHITESIDE could not see any analogy be-
tween the establishment of the county courts and the
destruction of the proctors' business.
Mr. KIRK sail that be was quite wilfing that the
same compensation granted to the Irish bar, in conse-
quence of the recent Court of Chancery Act and the In-
cumbered Estates Court Act, should be granted to the
proctors.

Mr. AYRTON said they bad granted compensation
in the very face-of an Act of Parliament, and now they
proposed taking it away from those for whom that Act
had provided it. This bill was now so changed that he
had altered his mind, and was in favour of granting
compensation. •
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was satisfied that if the

committee refused compensation to theme proctors, they
would do great it justice to these men. They were a
very peculiar body of men, limited is London to about
120 in number; their duties were not only performed to
their clients, but also to the public, for they examined
the will,, and pointed out fraudulent appearances, if such
there were, and probate was thereupon refused. Thty
paid about 1,0001. for their faculty to practise ; and it
was admitted that they had acted with great fidelity,
both to the satisfaction of the public and the judges.
The question had come up from time to time of reform-
ing these courts One commission had stated that com-
pensation ougit to be given to these proctors; the Lord
Chancellor proposed, instead, to give them a monopoly
of the common form practice in London ; the Attorney-
General himself had proposed to compensate them, and
now he had introduced this bill with the clause of the
Lord Chancellor's in it; but the committee had changed
all that—the business of these men was destroyed, and
the committee could dot, in justice to them, pass this
measure without granting them compensation. (Hear.)
It was the principle of Sir Robert Peel that in making
reforms in the law compensation should be given. That
principle had been acted up to, perhaps rather too fully,
and ho could not conceive how the Attorney-General
could oppose the proposition to give compensation to
the proctors.
M.. BRISCOE entirely concurred in what had fallen
from the noble lord. He (Mr. Briscoe) was a friend of
reform, but he was also a friend of justice.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would explain the

the right hon, gentleman the inerrner for Cambridge
ITnivers:ty, who, although they were barrister; yet were
not generally accounted as belonging to the profession.
Of the 13 there were only two were opponents of the al-
mission of the Jews, and 13 to two was, he thought, a
ratio rather strong even for the noble lord.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought there were four
opponents of the Oaths Bill upon the committee.
Mr. HENLEY said that as the noble lord had made
an error in counting, he hoped he would now correct it.
Lord J. MANNERS hoped the nob:e lord would fol-
low the nsual practice, and consult with the hon. and
learned member for Stamford as to what names should
be placed upon tha committee.
Altera few words from Sir F. Thesiger, Mr. Bentinek,
and Sir H. Willoughby, the motion for the adjournment
of the debate to this day was agreed to.
BEVERLEY ELECTION.

position of a proctor. He derived hie business from three
different sources—from the testamentary courts, the
marriage and divorce courts, and the Admiralty courts ;
in each of which he had a monopoly. It was proposed
to compensate him in respect of all proctorial business ;
and yet he derived an income from the other two sources,
supposing the testamentary business to be thrawn open.
MALINS intended to confine the c9mpensation
to the testamentary busineas.
Lie ATTORNEY•GENERA.L would argue the
matter upon that basis, then. In the Divorce Bill there
Wfil a clause giving him the exclusive practice, and in
one branch of Viat practice he (the Attorney-General)
anticipated a great increase in the business—(hear, hear)
and, unless the proctor withdrew his claims to such ex-
clusive practice there was a difficulty in seeing how ho
was to be compensated.

Mr. A. SMITE! appearA at the bar,.and brought up
the report of the committee on the Beverley election.
Tne committee reported that Mr. Glover had not been
duly elected a member to represent the bermgh of &-
veil ,y. Tho c,onmittee al=o adopted a resolution to the
following eff,ct :—" That Mr. Glover made and signed
a declaration in the form prescribed by the 1 and 2 Vic.,
e. 43, sec. 2 and 6 ; and that it was the unanimous opi-
nion of the committee that the evidence taken before
them shoal i be laid before the Attorney-General with a
view to further proceedings being taken with reference to
such declaration."

Mr. MALTNS said the proctors would give up their
(labia to the exclusive practice.
The ATTORNEY•GEiNERAL thought the commit-
tee ought to he accurately informed as to this, as it was
impossible to argue upon an hypothetical case. If the
proctors were brought down to the lsrel of the solicitors
then they ought to receivo compensation, and be placed
in the position contemplated by the Government in their
bill of last year. He would state the two propositions
of the Government, and leave the committee to decide
between them. If the proctors received compensation
according t 3 the proposal of the hon. and learned gentle-
man, then they would be entitled to no monopoly at all.
It was difficult to proCeed upon the contingency of the
Marriage and Divorce Bill as well as the present becom-
ing law ; but in that event he should propose that, at
the expiration of three years from the passing of the pre-
sent bill, an account should be taken of the professiona
receipts of the proctors, and if, upon comparison with the
receipts of the three antecedent years, a loss should be
ascertained, compensation should be given upon that
footing. He was not disposed to withdraw from the pro-
position of the Government in their bill of last year, to
which-he oonsidered the Government pledged, namely,
to give to the proctors an annuity equal to one-half of
the 1 uses which they should sustain by the changes in
the law, upon ao average of the five or three years fol-
lowing and preceding the passing of the bill ; the mono-
poly being given up in all Cases, and the whole business
thrown open to the profession at large. He hoped the
committee would think that the Government had met
the case of these proctors fairly.
Mr. WESTHE AD said there was this objection to the
proposition of the Attorney-General, that If the proctor
died during the three years he would get no compensa-
tion.

The report wag ordered to be lald upon the table.
PROBATES AND LE rrEas OF AD VHNISTRA.
TION BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,
Mr. MALINS moved the insertion of the following
clause :—" Whereas it is expedient to provide a tempo-
rary fund for the payment of the compensations under
the provisions of this act, be it enacted that in future the
proctorial fee at present received and taken by the proc-
tors praotieing in England or Wales, in respect of grants
of probate and administration, shall be levied, raised,
and collected by the Court of Peobate and District Re-
gistries, and paid into the account of Toe Testamen-
tary Fee Fund Account ; ' provided, that as the respec•
tive annuities allotted under this act by way of compen-
sation, shall from time to time cease, and after the
commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury have been
repaid all sums of money, with interest thereon,
which they may have advanced in carrying-, into
effect the provisions of this act, it shall be lawful for the
judge of the eourt, and be is hereby required from time
to time to reduce as he may deem necessary and proper
the fees so to be levied and paid.
Mr. SALISBURY moved the following amendments:
—" Page 29, line 1, after "emoluments" insert "or
business;" line 19, after " clerks" insert "and also to
all such other persons ;" line 21, after " courts " insert
"or by or under such registrars in the business of their
respective offices."
In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, by the returns
made in 1832, and since, the wholeamount of the emolu-
mentsectrionamrispe 2de
isol
as,foat7thidoel
n.
numberutaidnn judges, es
oerf,
deputy-registrars
t&hce. persons,
new
ewwe r
bill.e w were—Judges, Jo
Tul
vi
ilgoesue siBe,:isrlslb3olo,:2aB7entnlioi/t
ti regis-
trars
imitnsoz-
he
epleansssae dv were,viz.,
th
ea
ss
eh
ae
phpaedi
natl
er d
bd
eyfesrtea ttehde,
sdtiavti
ud
teed
ofi n L6o
antw do
and 7 Will. IV., and those appointed since that date.
After making a deduction for the number who would
continue to be employed under thenewact, he calculated
that the total Emmet ofcempensation would not exceed
29,000/. With regard to the next portion of the question,
he had to state that ad the fees received into the court
would be paid over to the consolidated fund, and prac-
titally whatever compensation might be awarded would
be levied upon the tax-payer. Las:ly, with regard to the
suggestion of the hon, and learned gentleman that the
stamp distributor:; shoul I receive compensation, he bad
to remiad the committee that that was not an office
which in any way entitled the holder to compensation—
the stamp distributor was simply the machinery em-
ployed by Government for providing the public with
etamps, and indeed he (the Attorney General) antici-
pated that persons holding that office would not be losers
by the change in the law.
After some discussion of no interest, the amendment
Ras withdrawn. _ _

Mr. BOLT thought it would be more convenient to
place all the district acd the London registries on the
same footing,-and to allow both solicitors and proctors
to practise in all the courts.
Lord HOTHAM drew a distinction between the sue-
regates in the south of England and those in the pro-
vince of York ; the duties of the former were only
confined to granting marriage licenses, whereas the latter
transacted all the duties of a proctor. He bad given
notice of a clause to the following effect :—"lt shall be
lawful for the Commissioners of the Treasury to grant
to every clerical surrogate who, at the time of the pass-
ing of this act, shall be acting under appointment from
the Prerogative and Exchequer Courts of York, such
compensation for any loss the said surrogate may sustain
by the passing of this act as the said commissienur:
deem just and proper to be awarded ; the said commis-
sioners having regard in awarding such compensation to
the circumstances of the said cleric curry gates not
being able to follow any other professional employment
in lieu of the said office of surrogate." Some of the
surrogates in York were incumbents in large manufac-
turing town., and only received a scanty remuneration
for their services, and the emoluments wh.ch they ob-
tained as surrogates were necessary to the maintenance
of the°e incumbencies. The case therefore of the surro-
gates in the province of York was especially deserving
the attention of the committee. Hon. gentlemen might
be aware, in the clause he was about to move, that Burro-
gates were not able to make up their salaries in any
other way when they retired, as they were not, like the
proctors, lawyers, who had so many opportunities of
doing so.
Col. SYKES considered the London proctors were
entitled to compensation, and would vote for the amend-
ment of the bon. member for Wallingford.
Mr. WIGRAM said that anything done for the iur.

Sir F. KELLY proposed the oinis4on of certain
words in order to make the clause, as he saki, reasonable.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended :;he clause as
it atood.

Sir F. KELLY again impugned the construction of
tue clause, but the diseuseion entirely turned upon tho