The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-27 00:00:00

acknowledge that she views with no jealousy on our part
the reconstruction of our naval power in conformity with I
recent scientific changes .and discoveries, on a scale greatly
superior to that which she has fixed upon as the term of her
exertions—if, I repeat, the noble lord can give us that assur-
ance it will, I have no doubt, have the effect of putting an
end to the vexatious controversies in which we have been
in the habit of indulging of late, and throw light on the
subjeCt. If, however, the noble lord can do this I can
hardly think he is justified in rising as he does on every
occasion when discussions of this kind take place, and seek-
ing to impress on the public mind that it is in consequence
of unexpected and almost unnatural efforts on the part of
France that he feels obliged to call upon the country to make
exertions by which those efforts might be overpowered. For
my own part, I consider that both nations need not stand
with respect to this question in a hostile, invidious, or com-
peting position. They are both great Powers with vast de •
mands on their maritime influence, and which are placed
in consequence of the revolution which bas of late years
occurred in naval affairs in a situation in which both are

called upon to make great efforts to establish an adequate
naval force. Instead, therefore, of looking upon one another
under those circumstances in a criticising and hostile spirit,
the leading statesmen, at all events, of each ought to use
every effort in their power to enlighten the public mind,
and to point out that the exertions which are being made
to create those naval armaments are the inevitable result of

that march of science which neither men nor nations can
resist—(hear)---that both countries, so far as can be judged,
are justified in the adoption of the course which they are
pursuing, and that nothing has hitherto occurred in refe-
rence to this question which England on the one side, or
France on the other, can fairly impugn. But, that being
the case, the interference of statesmen may bring about this
result, that there shall be on neither side excess or extra-
vagance of action—that there shall be no unnecessary or
wasteful expenditure, and that instead of the people in both
countries being oppressed, owing to rival exertions, care
should be taken that, as I said before, a mutual understand-
ing should exist that the naval power of each should be
fixed at the relative proportion which the interests of each
demand. (Hear, hear.) If these grounds were placed by the
noble lord fairly before the house, and if he called upon us
to make exertions in thedirection in which he now invites

us, with the assurance that neither England nor France
was entering on any insane race in the construction of its
naval force, but that both were simply aiming at the attain-
ment of a result which, when reached, would not have the
effect of endangering, but rather of consolidating the peace
of Europe, then there would, in my opinion, be an end of
those panics which we have witnessed and of those hostile
sentiments which we hear so frequently expressed.
(Cheers.)
Mr. WHITE heard with pleasure the sentiments which
the right hon. gentleman had so admirably expressed,
differing, as they did, materially from those which appeared
to find favour on the Opposition benches in the earlier pact
of the session. It was evident the right hon. gentleman
looked upon the responsibilities of office as not very remote
—(a laugh)—aud that he now deemed it the more states-
manlike course to adopt to come round to views which it
was some time ago the fashion to regard with abhorrence
when uttered by members who sat below the gangway on
the Ministerial side, while every expression of hostility to
France was greeted by the followers of the right hon. gen-
t leman with cheers. But passing from the speech of the right
hon. gentleman, he had to complain that categorical answers
had not been returned by the noble lord the Secretary to the
Admiralty to the questions which had been put to him by
the hon. member for Sunderland. He should, however,
again put those questions to the noble lord, and if he de-
clined to reply to them, it only remained for him, in con-
junction with his hon. friend, to take the sense of the
house on the subject. If the required information were not
furnished, the prob-ability was he would find on taking up
the Moniteur in a few days a flat contradiction given in its
pages to the statement of the noble lord at the head of the
Government, and he wished therefore to have some more
detailed knowledge with respect to how matters really stood.
The questions he had to ask the Secretary for the Admi-
ralty were—what were the names of the six iron vessels
now afloat to which allusion had been made ? Where were
the ten new vessels being built or laid down, and the eleven
boating iron-cased vessels to be found ?
Sir F. SMITH said these were points of detail which
should be left to the Government. The noble viscount at
the head of the Government had assured the Committee
that such e force was in course of construction in the French
ports, and upon a former occasion the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty gave the names of the vessels and the places where
they were to be found. He hoped the Government would
proceed with all possible speed in getting up the strength
of our navy.
Lord C. PAGET—I rise to give the information which
has been asked for by the hon. member for Sunderland with
respect to the French iron-plated ships. The Magenta and
the Solferino are two-deckers. The Magenta is launched,
and the Solferino is either launched or will soon be so. The
Gloire is afloat, the Normandie is afloat, the Couronne is
afloat, the Invincible is afloat, the Saigon is afloat, the Pa-
lestro is afloat, the Tonnante is afloat, and the Devastation
is afloat. Hero we have ten vessels, two of them line-of-
battle ships, four of them with 36 or 40 guns each, and four
belonging to that formidable class which the French call
floating batteries. We have then the Provence, the Savoie,
the Revanche, the Magnanime, the Gauloise, the Valeu-
reuse, the Heroine, the Surveillanie, the Flandre, and the
Guienne. These vessels—improved Gloires—were com-
menced in the early part of this year, and are all in course
of construction. We have besides the Congreve, the Fou-
droyante, the Paixhans, and the Peiho—all floating bat-
teries. There are two other vessels, the names of which 1
do not know, and as to which I have not such correct infor-
mation, but I believe they are being built as floating bat-
teries. The Magenta is at Brest, the Solferino is at
L' Orient, the Gloire is at Toulon, the Normandie is at Cher-
bourg, the Couronne is at L'Orient, the Invincible is at
Toulon, the Provence is at Toulon, the Savoie is at Toulon,
the Revanche is at Toulon, the Magnanime is at Brest, the
Gauloise is at Brest, the Valeureuse is at Brest, the Heroine
is at L' Orient, the Surveillante is at L'Orient, the Flandre
is at Cherbourg, and the Guienne is at Rochefort. Alto-
gether, the French have 16 large iron-plated vessels and 11
floating batteries, either afloat or in course of construction.
Is any further information wanted ? (A laugh,)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—I stated this Morning that I en-
tirely approve the course which the Government have taken
in proposing this estimate, and I should not have troubled
the committee again had it not been for an error into which
the hon. and gallant member for Harwich has fallen with
respect to the cost of these iron-cased ships, The hon. ajid
gallant member stated that we might take these ships as
costing half a million each.
Capt. JERVIS—With their armaments.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Even with their armaments the
estimate of the hon. and gallant member is exaggerated.
The most expensive of these ships is the Warrior, and yet
I think I am right when I state that the whole Cost of the
Warrior, excluding the armament, will not be much, if at
all, more thau £300,000. The sum is enormous, no doubt,
but still, as the expense is so large, it is desirable that it
should not be overrated. (Hear.) The hon. and gallant
member will recollect that of the 18 ships which are pro-
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that of the whole 18 ships one half will cost only three •
fifths of the sum which the hon. and gallant member has
estimated, and the other half will cost very much less.
(Hear.) And now I must say that I have heard the hon.
member for Sunderland to night with great regret. This
morning the hon. member told us that whatever number
of ships the French may have we ought to have more.
(Hear.) I was sorry to hear him this evening, I will not say
retracting that expression, but declaring that if he stood
alone he would vote against the proposal of the Govern-
ment. On what ground ? Because he did not believe
their statements. After what the hon. member has now
heard I think he must abandon everything like disbelief,
which, indeed, he had no right to entertain before. The
statements which he refused to credit rested upon un-
impeachable authority ; the evidence was conclusive, and
the hon. member might as well have said that he did not
believe this was the House of Commons. (A laugh.) I
agree with my right hon. friend the member for Bucks that
the question before us is not one of a foolish rivalry be-
tween England and France. The right of France to have
a large navy has never been disputed ; but, on the
other hand, we must take care to maintain the same right
for England. (Hear, hear.) We have the largest colonial
empire and the most extended commerce in the world, and
it is our first duty to provide ourselves with an adequate
naval force. I thoroughly approve the proposal of the Go-
vernment, in which I see nothing hostile to France, and I
hope it will meet with the approbation of the committee.
Lord H. VANE had no doubt his hon. friend the member
for Sunderland, after hearing the statement of the noble
lord the Secretary for the Admiralty, would at once accede
to the propriety of this vote. He did not believe there was
any panic in this country, but he was quite convinced the
temper of the people would not tolerate that we should be
left behind any other country in our naval armament. This
proposal of the Government, which had been somewhat
tardy, would be found in unison with the public sentiment.ttb
wi
(Hear.) It was absolutely called for, and he w
out a hope that the strength of our naval armament ennot would
enable us to make reductions in other departments.
Mr. LINDSAY must say, after the explicit
the noble lord as to the number of iron ships afloat andin
statementof
course of construction in France, that he had been misled by
the private information he had received from a high autho.•
rity in Paris ; and under these circumstances he should feel
that he was taking on himself a very serious responsibility
He
if he divided against this vote. hoped it would pass
unanimously. But it behoved us well and seriously to con-
sider what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman the
member for Buckinghamshire. He had listened to that
speech with very great delight. He could entirely confirm
the
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The vote was agreed to amid loud cheers.
IThe next vote was one for C0G,229, to defray excess of
army expenditure.
Oti the resolution being put, a personal explanation was