The Sun.
London, England, 1859-06-11 00:00:00

of only two. The one is, that we have failed in
our legislation ; the other is, that we have failed iu our
foreign policy. Now, anything more futile than the attempts
which have been made to support these accusations I have
never witnessed. Hon. gentlemen say that we have failed
in our Church Rate Bill. Now, I submit to the house that,
if there be anything to be complained of connected with that
Church Rate Bill it was rather the manner in which it was

brought forward. (Loud cheers.) But will any man gravely
contend that failure on a Church Ratebill in the late Parlia-
ment is to be the ground for a vote of want of confidence
now ? (Cheers.) Why, it is manifestly absurd. But there
is another bill which we brought forward to which hon.
gentlemen. have not referred. fhe noble viscount did not
mention it ; and nobody else has mentioned it amongst our
legislative failures; I allude to the bill which was intro-
duced by the Solicitor-General for the transfer of land.
(Hear, hear.) That was a subject upon. which our prede-
cessors, either from want of courage or want of ability, have
uniformly shrunk—(cheers)—but my learned friend, in the
most able manner, in a manner which elicited praise from all
sides of the house, and support from every quarter of the
house, introduced that bill which he laid upon the table
last session. (Cheers.) That has not been enumerated as
amongst our legislative failures. (Hear, hear.) I cannot
proceed further without noticing the exaggerated references
which have been made to our Reform Bill. The noble vis-
count said that nobody out of the Cabinet, with one or two
exceptions only spoke in its favour. Now, I do not deny that
there were provisions in that bill to which great exception
was taken, both in this house and out of doors. But if the
bill were so objectionable, why is it the noble lord was
obliged to resort to that irregular resolution as the only
mode in which he could hope to obtain a majority in this
house ? (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman the member
for Wilts spoke of our bill as having been rejected. I
corrected him at the moment. It was not rejected. (Hear.)
The noble lord dared not raise the issue. It is notorious
that, if the question of the second reading had been taken,
the second reading would have been carried. Are
there no gentlemen of eminence on the other side
of the house at this moment listening to me who in
private conversation declared that bill to be a most
wise and liberal measure ? I mention no names. Ido not
mean to bring up personal charges, but-there are those who
understand wat I mean. (Cries of "oh," and " name,"
accompanied by loud cheers.) When I say that there were
a number of gentlemen on the other side of the house who
were prepared to vote for the second reading of that bill, and
to support us upon it, but who when they found that a
party move had been made, and that the bill was not to be
considered on its merits said, " The issue is changed ; this
is no longer a discussion on the Reform Bill ; it is an at-
tack upon the Government ; and we must vote with our
party"—(cheers)—these are notorious facts, and I will no
longer dwell upon them ; but as they are notorious facts I
protest against the exaggerated language which has been
held about that Reform Bill, which did make great and
liberal concessions, and which you know would have passed
a second reading had that been the only question before us.
(Cheers.) Well, how does the question of reform now
stand ? What are your prospects under the coalition, or
whatever it may be termed, of which we have heard ? Have
we forgotten that the noble lord the member for London
went out of his way within a day or two before the dissolu-
tion.? Perhaps he thought he might make a little politi-
cal capital at the moment; but he went out of his way to
give us a sketch of what his Reform Bill was to be. The
next day the noble viscount the member for Tiverton came
down to the house, and in his turn went out of his way to
declare that he could not approve of such provisions.
(Cheers and laughter.) This :gives us a little insight of
what the reform prospects of the new Administration are
to be. (Hear, hear.) The last event that occurred was the
hon and learned member for Birmingham making a speech
in this house last night, when he declared that he might
be contented to accept a £lO franchise for counties, and a
a or £6 franchise for boroughs ; very much the same
sketch that the noble lord the member for London has
given us, and against which the noble lord the member
for Tiverton has protested. Now this does not open to
ardent Reformers a very clear prospect of what we are to
have; but it does open to 'my mind a very clear prospect,
in the event of a majority supporting this amendment,
of what the future Government of this country is-likely to
be. It opens to me the unpleasant and dangerous prospect
of being a Whig-Radical Government, divided and dis-
tracted among themselves, with the hon. member for Bir-
mingham sitting on their flank, guiding them in their de-
mocratic measures, and ready at any moment to trip them
up if they do not do his bidding. (Cheers and laughter.)
And I think that the hon. member for Birmingham has
shown great wisdom in keeping out of this entanglement.
(A laugh.)
.I think he has consulted his own character and
reputation in not sitting in the same Cabinet with the noble
viscount. (Hear and laughter.) I think that, after what
has passed in this house it would not be for the character of
the noble viscount nor of the hon. gentleman to sit in the
same Cabinet together. lam glad, for the sake of both, to
find that it is not likely to happen; but I think the pro-
posal before us, as I have sketched it, will be humiliating
to the individuals concerned, and dangerous to the interests
of the country. (Hear.) Sir, for what is it proposed to pass
a vote of want of confidence in the Government ? On what
is it proposed to found it ? Is it on our foreign policy ?
Now, what part of that foreign policy is it which justifies
this vote of want of confidence? We heard a good deal
before the dissolution of the case of the Charles-et-Georges.
(Cheers from the Liberals.) Gentlemen cheer; but I sup-
pose that was not a case for a want of confidence, or other-
wise we should have had a motion on it before this time.
(Hear.) Certainly there was no reluctance to attack her
Majesty's Ministers, if that was such a bad case. lam re-
minded that we had a motion on the affair of the Charles-
et-Georges, but it was a sham motion. It was not an at-
tack; it was not a motion upon which you dared to take a
division, because the merits of the case were against you.
(Hear.) Is the attack on our foreign policy in consequence
of the case of the Cagliari, in which my noble friend Lord
Malmesbury succeeded in. doing that which had foiled the
late Government for months, and on which my noble
friend extricated the English engineers from the dungeons
of Naples, and obtained compensation for the injuries they
nag
it
PrfIVP il ent ever had more rea-
son to be proud of their foreign . Luau nee I,I7.IJMILyIIi
. present Government. (Ironical laughter from the Opposi-
tion.) In a most successful manner my noble friend Lord
Malmesbury managed the difficulty connected with that
case, and here, sir, let me do justice to the spirit of fairness
in which the right hon. gentleman the member for North
Wiltshire this evening alluded to Lord Malmesbury. My
noble friend has done his portion of the work of the
present Government in a most able manner. (Cheers.) He
has been most unfairly and harshly treated—(Oh, oh)—but
while I have to complain of the language which the right
hon. gentleman the member for North Wiltshire used in
respect of myself I thank him for the fairness of his lan •
guage in regard of my noble friend Lord Malmesbury.
(Hear.) Well, if you cannot attack our foreign policy on
either of these grounds nothing remains but the Italian
question. Here Ido complain—and I hope my right hon.
friend the member for Stroud is in the house—l do for one
complain of the gross and flagrant injustice,ef proceeding
to censure any Government before you have seen their
papers and heard their case. (Hear, hear.) I am
not surprised, and I do not complain of my right hon. friend
the member for Stroud that he should vote aganist us on
this occasion. I think from the course of his political life
he is entitled to take that course ; but I wish he had not
urged such false and fallacious ground for that vote.
I wish he had not come down here and said he would have
acceded to the justice of our claim if we had asked him to
hear the evidence in our case before the case was adjudged.
If that bo his plea I claim his vote. (Hear, hear.) We do
complain of one of the most flagrant cases of political in
justice of which I have everheard ; and it requires the
lively audacity which distinguishes the noble viscount the
member for Tiverton to ask the house to take the course
which, in his speech on Tuesday night, he urged it to adopt.
Who was the other hon. member who urged that course?
The hon. and learned member for Cork (Mr. Sergeant
Deasy),-who ought to know that no verdict should be given
until; the evidence in the case has been heard. (Hear.)
There is a golden rule in this country, and not less just
within this house than outside of it—never to condemn
any one unheard. (Cheers.) The noble lord the member
for Tiverton has called upon the house to reverse that rule;
but I hope new members will notr think that any political
differences would justify such a gross injustice as to con •
demn the foreign policy of the Government in respect of the
Italian question before the house is in the possession of the
grounds upon which judgment in respect of that matter
should be given. (Hear, hear.) I cannot understand why
the hon. member for Birmingham is going to vote against
us to-night. He is an advocate of neutrality and peace. It
was justly remarked by an hon. member this evening that
no hon. gentleman had in this debate touched on the lan-
guage which we bad advised her Majesty to use in the
Speech from the- Throne. In that Royal Speech our policy
in respect of the Italian question is said to be one of neu-
trality. The hon. member for Birmingham says that his
policy is ono of neutrality. On what ground, then, can he
Vote against us ? (Hear, hear.) I think I have a right to
complain unless there has been a misrepresentation of what
the hon. gentleman said at that ball the other day—(great
laughter, continued for some minutes)--I beg pardon, I
mean at that meeting which took place in Almack's room
the other day. (Renewed laughter, and cheers.) Unless
the hon. member is misrepresented, he took occasion to say
he would vote against the noble lord the member for Tiver-
ton
governing the country unless he expressed
wsedehiamresaelLaon_
advocate for peace. However, he finds
h
" ' n
cates for peace, and with flagrant inconsiste,
ancyd heehiesergso.ingl
to vote against. (Cries of hear, hear,
s must have under-
gonethink the honourable gentleman'
cannot account, if he is sanguine some great and extraordinsaryviewthhaatntghee,
to place the foreign
bferst wmhiodeeholf
preserving the peace of Europe
o le
viscount viscount.
that
policy of the country
(Lord Palmerston's)
ds of
belief would notbe in acpyda thheatlatshtethoogin.vme
Whatever may be theillatttheribuct:Cais nobleellie
ber for Birmingham
(Hear, hear.) There is another
reputation ; and I shouldouihad him
credit for a peaceful policy. nve
have th
beenught
subject which, holding the position in the Government
which I do, it is impossible I can allow this debate.tol
(Hear, bear.) I think lam justified in repeating
close without alluding to— mean the defences of this
countrY• , •
what I commen.cediby.saymg—naniely, that ifyou are think.
ing of refusing your confidence to the administration, surely
one of the things which you ought to consider is the mode
in which we have dealt with this important matter (Hear).
I feel impelled by a sense of duty to allude to it, but I have
on this ground a reluctance to do so, 'that I shall have to
allude to measures taken by myself. I beg, however, that
the house will understand that I speak in no boastful spirits
(Haan) If the defences of the country have been improved
under my administration of the affairs of the navy, I am in-
debiQd to the able men whose assistance I have had, and
certainly 1:9 my right hon, friend the Secretary of the Ad-
miralty. (I-leaT;) liow was it that the noble viscount made
no reference to iht: state in which the late government left
the navy ? (Hear, hezi„"•) I am not now intending to revive
an 7 controversies between those who have hitherto filled
the (Act; of First Lord and my:elf•
in justice to 1;:.v colleagues and myt:"l
only wish to advert,
incontrovertible. "Ilia fact, I think, ..mentleman opr ?roe
to facts which are
can deny—that whatevei' Pay have been tilt;
doubt various eauses:contribubed to this result—'
,ffective
when myll
Lord Derby's government succeeded to office
the
t`-`) a
strength of the royal navy of this country waswr9.cuhel
hope
point which it had never reached before, and hi
to God it will never reach again. when
occasion to say before to -night that, 16 months
esorebattle
we came into office, we had only 25 effectree and
screw_
(ilea; and ehseears.) I had
ships. Of course I mean ships with en
in their engines. Therefore, if you like yo
h That was not
propellers. It is true there were three mglorilueesCaanfloactotivakpuintge
the entire number as 28 line-of-battle
Ladd
a position had never existed
things which
since the
placed. It was a state of
y' Government, sin .
before, and which her Majest
:hour have devoted their
in which the navy of Engpsnould have been
time it came into power until this
Is this why you wont
best energies to redress. 11
IQ (this the reason why we are to
trust them? (Hear.)
nt we have now, as then, three
navy now ? At this women n their engines. Without these
be condemned ?
line-of-battle ships tak.ing.
olf-battle ships. Counting those
(Hear andl cheers.) What is the state of the
t the three in the other case,
I willing to cowl
three, as was
effective line-of-battle ships, instead of 28, as
we have 40
months ago. (Cheers.) I called on Parlia-
there are 37 effective line
was the case 15
ment 15 months ago to enable me to redress this state of

things. The House of Commons responded liberally to that
appeal. The consequence is, that at the end of the present
financial year you will have 60 effective line-of-battle ships.
(Cheers.) I told you three months ago that we should
launch 15 in the course of the present financial year. We
have added two more to that number, making 17, which
will bring up the total number by the end of the financial
year to 50, or double what we found 15 months ago. Is
that a reason why we are to be condemned ? (Hear, hear.)
If we are to be so condemned by a triumphant faction here
—(oh, oh, from the Opposition, with cheers from the Mini-
sterialists)—do you think the country will respond to such
a decision? (Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerialists,
and " yes," from the Opposition.) If ever a Government
exposed themselves to attack we have done so. We have
assumed as grave a responsibility as any Government that
ever held the reins of power. Since Parliament was die-
solved—(ironical Opposition cheers)—aye, I know what
that cheer means. (Cheers and counter cheers.) Ido not
shrink from the issue which it raises. Since Parliament
was dissolved the war, which we had exerted every effort
to prevent, and which up to the very last hour we were san-
guine we should prevent, unhappily broke out. The result
was that the Government had to consider how we could
best provide for the defence of the country. We then took
a most unusual course. The hon. member for Birming-
ham spoke of the policy of the Whigs being a feeble
and a faltering policy. Well, the conduct of her Ma-
jesty's Government on this occasion was at least far from
being a feeble and a faltering one. (Hear; hear.) On the
responsibility of the Government we took three most im-
portant measures. We advised the Crown to issue an order
in council adding 10,000 men to our naval force-8,000 sea-
men and 2,000 marines. (Hear, hear.) Another measure we
adopted was one adverted to last night by the right hon ba-
ronet the member for Carlisle—l mean that of offering a
bounty to sailors. Having decided on ad ding 10,000 men to our
naval force, we decided on raising those additional men by
bounty. The third step was to add no less than 1,300 ship-
wrights to our dockyards—the measure of our addition, being
as many as our dockyards could accommodate for convenient
and efficient working. (Hear, hear.) The bounty we offered
was very high for a time of peace—higher, I believe, than
had ever been offered in time of peace on any former occa-
sion. (Hear, hear.) lam prepared to vindicate every one of
these measures. But I say this is no feeble or tottering
policy. (Cheers.) It is either right or wrong. Either we did
wisely and prudently consult the best interests of the coun-
try, or on the other hand we have adopted one of the most
reckless abuses of power, or the most extravagant and un-
justifiable outlay of the public money that ever a Govern-
ment was guilty of, (Cheers.) In the one case we ought
to be censured and condemned—in the other we are entitled
to the thanks of the country. (Loud cheers.) Are we then
to be condemned or thanked? and if thanked, what do you
mean by coming down here and muttering vague suspicions
about our foreign: policy ? (Prolonged cheering.) Here is a
point on which we are open to attack. We have done either
right or wrong. We challenge you upon this issue, and we
put the challenge not only here but out out of doors. (Cheers.)
Why have we heard these miserable pretences about sup-
posed defects in our foreign policy ? Why do younot graPPle
with us on that point on which we are open to attack. It is be-
cause you know that we have done right, because we have
done our duty, and that upon this point we are not open to
attack. It is true the hon. member for Birmingham did Cen-
sure our policy in this respect ; but no one supported him uL.
it. I protest against the statenent of the hom. member
that this policy was dictated by hostility towards France.
I disclaim that feeling altogether. I deny that it means or
that it is intended to mean anything like suspicion.
agree with the hon. member that an alliance with France
is productive of advantage to the best interests of both na-
tions and of the world. Long may that alliance be upheld.
But to uphold it intact it is necessary that England should
be prepared for events. (Cheers.) The hon. member for
Birmingham stands alone, I am sure, in his opinion on this
subject. But the right hon. gentleman the member for Car-
lisle held language upon this subject last night which
confess I did not clearly understand. The authority of the
right hon. baronet ought to be considerable on this subject,
and I should like to know, because I value his opinion, what
he meant when he alluded to our policy on this question-
With the exception of the gallant admiral the member for
Southwark and the hon. member for Birmingham, he is
almost the only member who has spoken in this debate that
has alluded to the unusual acts of the Government in rela-
tion to our national defences. The right hon. gentleman
said that there might be a public necessity which justified
our measures, and he was not prepared to deny that they
were necessary. But then he afterwards went on to condemn
the bounty as impolitic and imprudent. Will the right, hen-
gentleman allow use to tell him that these two opinion; are
irreconcilable the one with the other. If the policy. was ne-
cessary, the bounty was necessary, and I tell the right hon.
gentleman that without the bounty, we should not have beau
able to carry out our policy. The right hon. gentleman felt
into some decided errors on this subject in his speech of last
night, and one of those errors was his statement that. the
issue of the bounty would be fatal to the continuous service
system; for how, said he, can you expect men to enter for
continuous service when they know that at any moment a
bounty may be offered to them to enter ? Now, I am
happy to tell the right hon. gentleman that he never fen
into a greater mistake. The continuous service _oyster°
was first begun in 1853, when it was introduced, much-to
his honour, by the right hon. gentleman himself. In the
first year after it was adopted the average number of nuln-
that entered the continuous service per month was 1,
18e}
1855 it fell to 800; in 1856 it fell further to 600; ~
to 400 ; in 1858 it had fallen as low as to an average of 309
per month. The bounty was first offered in May, and I
ocann.
tell the right hon. baronet how many men entered for
tainf
3uoorthsezicewedreutno bfaerr
gletshas
tthmanonlth,s.93lninsetenad
of men who have entered for continuous service 2Ln•
continuous service, and up to the present time the ilunieb%
wohfot heneteniVc
n 1 to the con-
struction, the bounty has acted
as
a s .e
tell the right hon.
477. (Loud cheers.) So that instead of pusroving the de,
Urinous service system. And now let m
house will recollect that when I moved the navy estimates
in the course of last session, I proposed to raise 5,000
tional seamen. During the whole of the month of AP
ril
addl.
that
unaer tne oia system the number of additional seaman
entered the navy, after deducting those who from Varlould
111_;
causes retired, amounted only to six. (Hear, hear.) Co
we have gone on under such a system as that—(loud cheers )
—while there was a war in Europe, and with all the press-
ing necessity which in consequence arose for the increase
of our naval defences? (Cheers.) We resorted to the
bounty, and instead of an increase of six, the increase in
the month of May was nearly 3,000, and up to this time the
increase is about 4,000. I must here answer an inquir9
the gallant admiral. The proportion of able-bodied sea-
men who have entered is, in round numbers, about 90 per
cent. (" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) lam hapPY
to tell the gallant admiral something else. The entries of
landsmen, as they are called, are of the very best descrip-
tion. Many of them are boatmen, men otherwise accus-
tomed to the sea ; and I have the best reports from the car
tains of the now ships, that though the crews are of course
undisciplined, yet they consist of the finest material and:
will make the very best description of men-of-war' I m
menust ..
tell him that we have now 24 sail of the line, and 12 frigates
In answer to another question of the gallant admiral,
of the largest class in commission. They are now divided
between the Mediterranean and the Channel. We are about
to increase the Mediterranean portion of them, but that will
not affect the general state of things. The gallant admiral
also asked if our force now in commission exceeded that of
the French. Now, Ido not like comparisons. I would:look
rather to positive statements. The French are not the XIV
naval power with which we may be called to contend--
(hear, hear)—but in answer to the inquiry of the gallant ad-
miral, I may tell him that our ships of war in commission;
are considerably greater than the French. (Cheers.) .t&na
that is not the limit to which we intend to go. And new,
sir, let me ask the gallant admiral a plain question. W:11.4
course is he going to take to-night ? (Loud cheers.) Is 110
going to talathe line of a frank-hearted sailor or is he going
to take the line of a disingenuous partisan. (Loud and pro-
longed cheering.) He told us the other nig t with perfeoU
truth— I agree with him, and I am sure the public will!
agree with him—that party questions are nothing ; that an
£8 or £6 borough franchise was nothing when compared in
importance with the defences of England. (Lond_ohaefrese.)
He knows what those defences were when we. took office
he knows what they are know ; and if there is rifyi
known
in
this house to whom, from his langu
to in
use
—if there is a man to whom I have a right appeal,
that he will support the Govern-
consistency and honour,
opinions—from everything he has saidagand done in this ho
merit on the groun
of the country, that man is the gallant admiral. (Trerpen-
dof what they have done for the defences
with which they .
have heard these observations. I hope and
dons cheering.) Sir, I thank the house for the patience
• trust that the spirit in which they have been spoken will
not be misrepresented or misunderstood: I have felt it due
-to my colleagues to state the efforts they have made for the
defences of England. It may suit your purpose to alter the
issue, but the common sense and the common feeling of the )
country will be against you. It is absurd at a moment when '4,
war is raging in Europe—when no man can tell how soe'll a
spark may reach this country—it is absurd to say that
judging of the conduct of the Government you will ex'
elude this subject from your consideration. Hon. gentle-
men opposite may try to shun it, but the feeling of the
country will not allow them. I have done my duty
asking the House of Commons to support a government
that has made these efforts, and I am indifferent as to
the result. If a majority of this house shall vote in
favour of the amendment I shall have the satisfaction
of feeling that I shall hand over the navy of England f
DIY
successor in a very different state from that which I found
it—(tremendous cheering)—and I shill have the .“---.4."4h°!
satisfaction of feeling that, whatever party disci.pline or
party efforts may accomplish in this house, if a majority:
this house shall support the amendment, I may with ee•
fidence appeal to the British public from their decision
(Great cheering.) of the
Lord J. RUSSELL—I Must say that the tone
right hon. gentleman who has just sat downia, eenaid-eril-16
deo the circumstances in which we stand, somewhat e -
t
nary. Her Majesty's Ministers advised her Majeity of
solve Parliament at a critical time, and in the raids
to
portant business, in order to try the question whether her
Majesty's Ministers had or had not the confidence of
rhooner
liament and the country. The Parliament havill
g6t.r
The representatives returned here proposed imraedia_.e It
_s;
put to the test the question which her Maj ue
thus dissolved, the elections took place upon this cl
They are ready
declared was really the question at issue.
her Majesty's
esty's Mi
to declare that they have not confidencehitnhon.
gentleman
Ministers, and in taking this step the rig
the whole
calls us a faction. (Cheers.)
hon. gentleman really expect ? Did he mean
.an
to the questi
country should give but one answer
was
so 1
self-
to it. Did he mean to say that their wisdom t
there
evident that nothing could indupeophpoonsiti n g 8 _
but the spirit of faction..gentlemen MM.,
Why, what did the right
to have a very
But I think it may be permitted
superior merits.
if mistaken, to take a different TICK
beta of this house, even
high estimate right
o his and hi.sttecdollthearagne:
gentleman expresse
h
Well, the rig
exposed to the charge of faction.
out being Nowt
gentleman asks us to forward our charges.
'on.
to make any eh ri6v"'
from that which the right hon.
in order to establish the validity of this 11U,
dab 't hold that it is at all necessary
au2e
whatever
House of (Ana
words used by Mr. Burke when he said the but it
went. I thought that question was settled in a few_
was also a council of weight and wisdom to advis, If 7.";
• at this erne a:
mons was not only a court competent to criminate,__
ht not to be plaeea
time that the destinies of the country ong
ly corape-
• " ters 15 sure
the House of Commons be opinion
in the hands of the present ministers,
u. ,ffear.) when
tent for this house to declare that opianto_ t
the administratieop:
strong and efficient administration,._,
d nan but a week to produce th tr.
against which he move
Mr. S. Wortley in 1812 prop9sed
policy which they recomrqe:cte
measures, and to state the.e on
a the consideration tn t
al to
But that step was justified
ead of affairs were not equal
So
men who were then at h
they were required to sot_
anddress in favour of
the emergenc uon wre _e
little ourprieed at the lenguab..
motion.. I confess I aril P,
as to the proprietY
much far the constitutional rul