The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-11 00:00:00

THE SUN:i LONDON; TUESDAY EVENING, -JUNE 1.1, ISM

tion of Ireland was most deficient, and he hoped that the
committee would consent to take one seat from Lancashire
and give it to Ireland. He had no doubt the case as against
Chelsea and Kensington was still stronger than it was
against South Lancashire. He hoped the house, taking a
survey of the entire of Ireland, would agree with him in
thinking that that country had not its fair share in the
representation, and that they would consent to strike the
clause out of the bill which proposed to give an additional
member to South Lancashire, and that they would ',give
that member to Ireland.
Sir G. C. LEWIS said, if he understood the hon. and
gallant member's motion aright, he proposed to expunge
the southern division of Lancashire, and to substitute an
additional member for the county of Cork. Now, compari-
sons were odious, and he (Sir G. C. Lewis) would not insti-
-1 tute any. But thus much he must say, that the four seats
now vacant were caused by the disfranchisement of English
boroughs, and that the view taken by the Government was
that those four seats ought to be distributed amongst Eng-
lish counties and boroughs. There was no narrow or sec-
tarian feeling in that. The Government simply thought
that in the distribution they ought not to disturb the exist-
ing proportions into which the representation of the United
Kingdom had been divided. (Hear.) The representation
of Ireland had been fixed by the Act of Union, and it had
been further modified by the Reform Bill. If the Govern-
ment had 40 seats at their disposal at present, and were re-
allotting them, then, indeed, they might take into their
consideration whether additional members might not be
given to both Ireland and Scotland. But, under the
circumstances, they felt themselves bound to assign the
four seats exclusively to English counties and boroughs.
That was an equitable and reasonable view of the case.
(Hear, hear.) Therefore without disputing the argu-
ment that Cork, under other circumstances, might be
entitled to an additional member; yet seeing that four
English seats were vacant, the existing proportions of the
representations could not be disturbed by the Government.
He hoped that, in saying this, no member from Ireland or
Scotland would think the ground the Government had
taken untenable, or that it implied and national prejudice
or ill-feeling towards their country. In dissenting from
the motion, he begged to remind the house that the popu-
lation of South Lancashire was 2,428,000, and that it had
increased during the last ten years by 397,000.
Mr. P. URQUHART said that he had been somewhat
surprised at the reasons assigned by the right honourable
gentleman the Home Secretary, for wishing to confine the
vacant seats to England. Heretofore it had been often de-
clared that Ireland was an integral part of the British
eanpire, and that ;+ was regarded as a portion of the United
Kingdom, and yet now cue whole of the rout ..of. t,,
be distributed exclusively amongst English counties and
boroughs. Lancashire had plenty of opportunities of
making her grievances known, but Ireland had not. It
had been said by an eminent authority that Ireland was
entitled to 150 representatives. At all events, there were
anomalies in her representation which ought to be remedied.
Several Englishmen had owed their seats in the house to
Irish constituencies, who were ready to do justice to the
claims of those who did not belong to their creed or country.
Mr. W. PATTEN expressed a hope that the Govern-
ment would not assent to the motion, the arguments in
favour of which were about the most extraordinary he had
ever heard. It was said, for instance, that whereas
Ireland at the time of the Union was allowed 100 repre-
-1 sentatives, to which five more were since added, she
was entitled to a far larger number, because her popu-
lation had increased. But the population of England
had increased three-fold more than that of Ireland, and
yet, not only was the representation not increased, but the
five members given to Ireland were absolutely taken from
England. (Hear.) The honourable and gallant mover's
suggestion was to take away a member from South Lanca-
shire and transfer him to Cork. But what was the fact?
The county of Cork bad 16,000 voters and two representa-
tives. South Lancashire had nearly 20,000 voters, and if
the vast extent of her population were taken into account,
it would be found that, instead of :having too many repre-
sentatives, she had not her proper number. The important
town of Burnley, for instance, was altogether lost sight of
on the present occasion, though its claims upon the house
and the Government had heretofore been admitted. The
town of Salford, too, had very strong claims indeed, as
compared with any other borough, and its claims would
doubtless have been well and ably advocated by the chair-
man (Mr. Massey), but for the position he occupied in that
house. The right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary had
dealt with the whole subject in such a manner as placed the
merits of South Lancashire beyond question or doubt.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SCULLY contended that the county of Cork was
not sufficiently represented. He quite admitted that com-
parisons were odious, and, upon that 'account, he would
not enter into a contrast between Cork and Lancashire,
but it was impolitic on the part of the Home
Secretary to raise such a broad and manifest line
of distinction as he had between England and
Ireland. They had always been told that Ireland was
part of the United Kingdom, but now, when it suited
the purpose of the Government, the sister country was
treated as a separate nation. Irish members had been
bribed to carry the Act of Union, and some of them were
glad that they had a country to sell. The calculations of
Lord Castlereagh was that Ireland was entitled to 108 seats.
He woulrl not like another member for the
county of Cork, for he would rather not have a colleague at
all—to say nothing of the chance of a contest. (A laugh.)
It was difficult enough to'keep one's own seat at times, but
it was much more difficult to keep a colleague in order.
(Renewed laughter.) He objected to the mongrel of na-
tionality which called members from Ireland Irish members,
for they were members of a British Legislature and were
British legislators. Notwithstanding his personal feeling,
however, he considered the present a fair opportunity for
giving an additional member to Ireland, and if that
were done, the claims of Cork were undoubtedly good.
The liberality of Irish Roman Catholic constituencies in
returning Protestants deserved the favourable notice of the
House.
Sir E. COLEBROOK E protested against any course of
proceeding which shculd act as a bar against the claims of
Sootland to further representation. He considered that
Lancashire had better claims than Ireland for an additional
member ; but he considered that Lanarkshire stood, in point
of population, on a perfect par with the county which was
the subject of the present clause. He was aware, however,
of the difficulty of pressing the claim for Scotland; and if
he refrained from doing so, it was because he thought that
on the present occasion more substantial justice would be
done by meeting the question on the 3d clause, and he re-
served to himself, when that clause came under discussion,
the right of advocating the claims of the county with which
he was connected. •

Lord J. MANNERS had always looked upon this mea-
sure as being of great importance, and he should vote
simply on the ground which he hid previously advanced
during the course of the evening,
The committee then divided, whea there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The amendment was therefore lost:

Mr. BAZLEY (for Mr. Massey, vho occupied the dhair)
moved to add at the end of the clause, " And the borough
of Salford, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, shall be
entitled to return two members instead of one member to
serve in Parliament." Ho hoped this motion would be
agreed to on account of the great increase that had taken
place in the population and wealth of Salford.
Sir G. C. LEWIS preferred the clause as it stood. It
was true that the population of Salford was greater than
that of any other borough returning only one member, but
in fact Salford was virtually a part of Manchester. (Hear,
hear.) If the proposal was adopted, Manchester would vir-
tually have four members, while Liverpool would only have
two. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BAZLEY withdrew the amendment.
Tho clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 2.

On clause 3,
Mr. KNIGHTLEY proposed to leave out the words
" parishes of Chelsea and Kensington," in order that the
appropriation of the vacant seats might be the subject of
future discussion.
Sir G. C. LEWIS thought that the hon. member had
adopted rather an unusual mode of moving an amendment,
inasmuch as he had not made any counter proposal, so as to
enable the committee to decide between it and that of the
Government. The Government had assigned a seat to
Chelsea and Kensington, because it seemed fair to give one
of the four seats to the metropolis. The same proposal had
been made in the last two Reform Bills. (No, from Mr.
Disraeli.) He did not appeal to that as a conclusive pre-
cedent in support of the present bill, because the previous
bills were of a more extensive character. Owing to the
magnitude of the metropolis and the great increase of its
population, it was fairly entitled to an additional member.
In 1851, the population of the metropolis, within the limits
of the local government, was 2,352,000, and this year it
was 2,803,000, being au increase in 10 years of 440,000.
The population of Manchester was only 243,000 ; of Liver-
pool, 260,000; and of Birmingham, 212,000. So that the
increase in the population of the metropolis was equal to
the population of Manchester and Liverpool put together.
The population of Vienna was 476,000; of Berlin, 438,000;
and of Madrid, 475,000—50 that the increase in the popula-
tion of London, in the last ten years, was greater in some
instances than the population of the capitals of Powers of
the first magnitude. The population of the two parishes of
questions
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Chelsea and Knightsbridge had increased, in the last ten
I
years, from 100,000 to 134,000. (Hear.) Property had also
increased in a degree equal, if not superior, to the increase
of population. He did not think that any other borough
could be pointed out which had increased in these respects '
in an equal degree with Chelsea and Kensington.
Mr. BENTINCK said that in answer to his hon. friend
the right. hon. baronet had assumed that there was no conn-
ter.proposal. But, in point of fact, the hon: gentleman had
made a counter-proposal. The objection to the proposal of
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