The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-10 00:00:00

DIVORCE BILL.

In reply to a question from Lord LYNDHURST,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was not his in-
tention to proceed further during the present ses-
sion with the Divorce or Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction
Bids. They would be undoubtedly introduced
with some alterations at the earliest possible moment
next session.

THE WAR IN CHINA.
The Eail of HARDWICKE begged to call the at-
tention of the noble lord the Secretary at War to the
question which he had put to the noble lord on Friday
evening last. From the answer he then received
he inferred that important despatches bad been
received, and would be published in the usual way. Re-
cent accounts in the newspapers stated that the French had
lent their valuable aid to our forces for the protection of
the inhabitants at Hong Kong. He felt grateful for that
assertion, but it was very painful to him as an English-
man to feel indebted to any foreign power for assist-
ance.

Lord PANMURE said the answer he gave on Friday
must have been misunderstood by the noble earl. He
said that despatchea had been received—stating- Mat the
Vita zergiweut naa been engagea with the Chinese, and
that certain casualties had taken place, and that they
would be published in the London Clazette. A list of
those casualties had been made public.
TORTURE IN INDIA.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE gave notice of his inten-
tion, on Monday next, to move for certain returns on
the subject of the infliction of torture in India.
THE OPIUM MONOPOLY.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose to move that the
following questions be put to the judges :
"1. Whether, according to the true construction of the
4th section of an Act passed in a session of Parliament
holden in the 3d and 4th years of the reign of his late Ma-
jority King William IV., entitled `An Act for effecting an
arrangement with the East India Company, and
for the better government of his Majesty's Indian Terri-
tories till the 30th day of April, 1854,' it is lawful for the
East India Company to derive a revenue from opium by
the following system :—That is to say, by prohibiting and
preventing the growth of the poppy, from which opium is
made, within their territories except as grown on
their account and under their licence and su-
perintendency, advances of money being annually
made by them to the cultivators of the poppy by way
of prepayment of the price of all the juice of the poppy of
a specified consistence, to be produced from the land in re-
spect of which such advances are made, such price being es-
timated according to a price fixed by the company for the dis-
trict in which the land happens to be situated ; the cultiva-
tors delivering to the company as much of such juice as the
cultivators can produce, such juice being afterwards sent
by the company to their factories, and there manufactured
by them into opium; afterwards sent by them from those
factories to Calcutta, and there sold by them by auction at
their sales, the excess of the sale prices over and above the
first cost!constituting the revenue in question.
"2. Whether, having regard to the supplemental
treaty between her Majesty and the Emperor of China, bear-
ing date the Bth day of October, 1843, which contains the
following words—' A fair and regular tariff of duties and
other dues having now been established, it is to hoped that
the system of smuggling will entirely cease,' it is
lawful for the East India Company to deal with such
opium in the manner stated in the first question, with
the full knowledge that it is so purchased at the above-
mentioned sales for the purpose of being smuggled into
China in contravention of the laws of that empire; and
so to cultivate and manufacture the same with a view prin-
cipally to the China market, and to its being so purchased
for such purposes as aforesaid; the Company with that
view manufacturing the opium into the form which the
Company consider best adapted to facilitate and promote
that contraband trade?'
The noble lord took the opportunity of entering at
length on the subject, and contended that the -greatest
obstacle to the spread of Christianity in China was the
cultivation and sale of opium by the East India Com-
pany); that the statute law gave a monopoly in salt,
tobacco, and bet. 1 nut to the company, but not one
word in that law was said about opium. The noble
earl then detailed the process of the cultivation of the
poppy, the flavouring the opium to suit the palate of
the Chinese, and concluded by urging their lord-
ships to agree to his motion, saying that if
his questions were submitted to the judge. of the
land, he bad no doubt in his own mind that they would
arrive at the conclusion that the whole transaction was
illegal. If it was declared that this abomination was
legal, and ex:sted by act of Parliament, then he pledged '
himself to bring the whole subject in all its enormity
before Parliament, and appeal to the feelings of the
country to put a stop to such an abominable system.
The LORD CHANCELLOR considered that the
question which had been brought before their lordships'
attention was of very deep importance ; but what he
wished to put to his noble friend, and to submit to the
house, was, whether the course which his noble friend
had asked the house to adopt was one which their lord-
ships could, with any sense of justice, possibly sanction ?
His noble friend proposed to submit certain propositions
to the judges. The judges were in the habit of being
summoned to their lordships' house in any matter upon
which their lordships thought it right to ask their
opinion—especially with a view to any judicial busi-
ness their lordships might have to transact, or to some
pending litigation which came before the house by way
of appeal. In the year 1840 a right rev, prelate made a
motion to ascertain from the judges whether a proposed
measure as to the application of the Canada Clergy
Reserves fund would or would not be consistent with an
existing Act of Parliament, and their lordships' legisla-
tion was guided by their opinion. To such a course no man
could possibly object. But what would be the consequence
of putting such a question as that of which notice had
been given ? According to the hypothesis of his noble
friend every member and servant of the East India Com-
pany for the last 50 years was guilty, to the extent of
many millions a year, of violating the law of the land.
If so, tbey, and each of them, were liable to be indicted,
tried, and punished. Could anything be so monstrous—
if this were to be the consequence—tbat their lordships
were to be called upon to prejudge the question of the
guilt of these persons who were not before them to say
anything in their own defence, and that the judges should
determine upon a state of things submitted to them upon
one side only and have to answer a question which they
might have to decide judicially ! He (the Lord Chan-
cellor) could not conceive that, if his noble friend saw the
extreme embarrassment of such a result, he would for one
moment ask the house to sanction the course be had sub-
gested. (Hear.) However, he (the Lord Chancellor) was
quite prepared, on behalf of the Government, to investi-
gate a questien (which had been put in a form that
rather assumed than stated the facts of the case) of how
the manufacture of opium was conducted, and who dis-
posed of it. That question the Government would re-
fer to their own law officers; and with respect to the
second proposition, which related not to a law but to a
treaty, they would refer it to the Queen's• Advocate. He
had no doubt that that opinion would be satisfactory to
the Government, and they probably would have no diffi-
culty in communicating it to their lordships. He (the
Lord Chancellor) would not commit himself to the pro-
position that the trade in opium was strictly legal. The
object of the act was to discontinue commercial trad-
ing, and perhaps his noble friend (the Earl of Shaftes-
bury) did not know so well as some other noble lords
that dealing with the produce of one's own land was
not trading in the eye of the law. With respect to
another trade, that of salt, the very question had been
decided that the owners of 'salt were not thereby con-
sidered commercial traders as the law dealt with those
words. If the fact were that the East India
Company were not empowered to cultivate opium by
the Act of 1853, his noble friend assumed further
that the cultivation of opium that existed was a mo-
nopoly. But it was impossible for any one to say how
that was without a knowledge of the law. The East
India Company could prevent any one else from culti-
vating opium—a matter which could only be arrived at
by investigation of facts. But supposing they had a mo-
nopoly, did not the act except those operations which
were necessary for the purposes of government ? Now,
if it should turn out that this was the mode by which
the East India Company had thought proper to raise the
necessary revenue of the country, how could it be said
that it was illegal? It was hardly a matter to be argued.
At the same time he (the Lord Chancellor) promised to
keep his mind suspended ; he had been a lawyer quite
long enough to know that difficulties might arise and in-
genious questions might be raised, and with the promise
of investigation he had given, he would submit it to hie
noble friend whether the motion had better not be with-
drawn.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said b• bad no inten-
tion of makings motion which should have the effect of
laying open to a criminal indictment the living
and the dead for the last 50 years ; and if that were really
the view of his noble friend upon the woolsack, and if
he would give him a guarantee that the question should
be referred to the law officers of the Crown, with a view
to the full investigation of the whole matter, he must
say that his point would be gained, and that ho would
with that understanding withdraw his motion. (Hear.)
Earl GREY said he thought his noble friend the Ear I
of Shaftesbury) had exercised a wive discretion. He
(Earl Grey) had heard with extreme astonishment that,
with some modifications, the motion was about to be
assented to by her Majesty's Government. That asto-
nishment, however, was dissipated when he heard the
' speech of the noble lord on the woolsack. A reference
to the judges and to the law officers of the Crown was no
the same thing ; but though political interests weighed
with the latter, he thought they might be appealed to in
this instance with some confidence. The question was
one of far too high au importance to be dealt with in
the manner suggested by the noble earl, involving
, as it did the consideration whether the conduct

of the East India Comrany in this matter was consistent
with justice and equity, and with our obligations towards
China. No doubt it was of the utmost difficulty to pro-
hibit vice by legislation. There were many in this coun-
try who wished to prohibit the sale of intoxlcating liquors
but he always thought that such a prohibition would be
ineffectual and unwise. Opium was a drug liable to great
abuse, but still of great value as a medicine, and the
prohibition of it would be attended, even in that respect
with much evil. He doubted, therefore, if it were possi-
ble, when opium had passed into the hands of private
consumers, to limit the supply to a necessary and pro-
per amount. But the question was whether, after the
opium had passed from the hands of the company, the
British authorities wilfully encouraged the smuggling of
it. (Hear.) He used to think that they did not, but
that opinion had been considerably shaken by an ob-
servation of the British resident at Hong Kong, which
he (Earl Grey) had found in the papers before the house
to the effect that the recent ordinance had been of
the greatest service in enoouraging
the trade in opium
along the coast. He thoughtif the colonial authorities
had encouraged the smuggling of opium, nothing could
justify such a course. We should then be in the position
of punishing the Chinese with the utmost severity for an
alleged violation of the treaty, whdst at the same time
this country was violating not only its nPi-it,
but its ex-
press terms. This opinion of rie law officers of the Crown
on a subject involving so great a principle as was there
involved he should not cslasider as worthy the paper on
which it was write r. He t. uste I that the negotiator who,
as the Government had tardilyannounced, was to be sent
out to China to supersede Sir J. Bowring would be aman
possessing the confidence of both Houses of Parliament,
and also of the country, and that he would be sent out to
neutiate not only upon that subject, but generally as to
the best means of obtaining and maintaining peaceful re-
lations between this country and China. Even on the
assets:loLn. taunt-ahepeorweedingewhich had lately taken
place at Canton had, been as right as he (Earl Grey)
believed them to be wrong, and that the Government
were justified in every step they had taken, still be
thought the war which had broken out was a direful
calamity, and that all ought to be moat anxious to put
an end to it. On the Bth of October, when the unfortu-
nate occurrence which had led to the evil took place, we
had been for a number of years carrying on an advanta-
geous trade with China, the commercial position we en-
joyed being equal to that found in any of the great com-
mercial emporiums 'of the world. Without now staying
to comment on the evils of the war, as it affected the
cause of humanity, although he was one who could not
look with anything approaching indifference on the
slaughter of so many men, of whatever nation they might
be—he would ask their lordships to consider what the
effects had been on our own interests. Our valuable trade
in tea had been so interrupted that we were told that the
importations of tea had fallen off to such an extent that
the loss to the revenue would be nearer two than
one million. Besides
sthat the feelings of the Chinese
people were on.
so exasperated against this country, that
il
even in our own colony of Hong Kong the British
were subject to great danger, and serious alarm was also
entertained at Singapore. The whole financial arrange-
ments of the year would be so greatly disturbed by the
war that either the nation must be disappointed of that
reduction of taxation which it had a right to expect as
consequent upon the conclusion of the Russian war, or
else the Government must resort to the expediency of a
loan, He thought that the plenipotentiary to be sent
out should have instructions, not penned in a vindictive
spirit, but such as would cause him to make peace at
the earliest moment. This was the first time almost in
our history in which we had been engaged in a war with-
out it being made known to the house by a message
from the Crown, and without any formal communication
being made to Parliament, notwithstanding large forces
were being shipped to the scene of war. He concurred
in the withdrawal of the motion by his noble friend, for
he thought that the question involved in the motion was
one which ought to be considered upon the high prin-
ciples of policy and equity.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE contended that it was
the abuse, and not the use, of opium which was per-
nicious. Thousands might consume it without any evil
results. All the authorities on the subject agreed in
saying that opium, taken in moderation, neither im-
paired the functions nor shortened life. In fact, it was
not more deleterious than spirits, and the criminal re-
cords of this country showed that most crimes bad their
origin in drunkenness. If the growth of opium were
altogether prohibited he believed the Chinese would
have recourse to spirits as a stimulant, and therefore the
effect of the noble earl's motion, if it were carried out,
would be to increase drunkenness in China tenfold and
crime one hundredfold. But if opium were to be totally
prohibited, they must also, by some indirect meddling,
prevent its growth in the neighbouring territory of Man-
wall. Turkey, likewise, grew opium, and it was even
being cultivated in China itself. He felt convinced that
the Chinese had seen the folly and absurdity of enacting
edicts against the introduction of opium, and therefore
allowed the law to become a dead letter.
Earl GRANVILLE said that when the subject came
to be comprehensively treated their lordships would
find there were various considerations on both sides
which must be looked at before any decision could be
come to. On the present occasion he merely rose for
the purpose of noticing one or two points raised by the
noble earl near him (Earl Grey). That noble earl said
he objected to the course which the Government had
felt bound to take in referring this question to the law
officers of the Crown for their opinion. Considering
that the noble earl admitted he was not prepared to
form an opinion upon so important a question, and also
considering that it was brought forward by a noble earl
opposite who represented a strong opinion, whether
right or wrong, on the subject in the country, he (Earl
Granville) did not think the Government were much to
blame, under such circumstances, in referring the matter
to the law officers of the Crown. He did not think the
observa:ions imade by the noble earl, considering the
situation he had occupied, could bear any other meaning
than an imputation upon the law officers of the Crown

—a personal insinuation upon the gentlemen now occu.
pying those offices—upon their ability and upon their
character.

Earl GREY—The noble earl misunderstood his obser-
vations. What he said was, he would give nothing for
the opinion of the law officers of the Cniwn upon mere
technical points, for there were superior considerations
to the mere words of an act of Parliament.
Earl GRA.NTILLE said he was then happy to retract
thehis discussion.worcduss,siaonn. B
and wouldut he
d n
say that the British authorities in China had encouraged
smuggling. and that to do so was a breach of treaties.
Earl GREY—No ; what he said was that he bad always
understoodlnger utphoen noble that
earlp art
t o,f
understood that formerly our authorities in China had
discouraged smuggling, but that of late smuggling had
been regarded by them with more favourable eyes.
Earl GRANVILLE was glad the noble earl had not
attempted to contradict what he had stated upon this
head. The papers proved a very different state of things
than that supposed to ex'st by the noble earl.
Earl GREY—The best way to put an end to the smug-
gling of opium in India would be for our authorities in
China earnestly to take measures for its discouragement.
Earl GRANVILLE—In fact, the noble earl, judging
from his speech, wished to renew the Chinese debate,
and had in his speech upon that debate probably omitted
the remarks he had delivered upon that evening. He
would not imitate the noble earl in this slight irregula-
rity. If the noble earl wished to renew the motion made
by him a few evenings ago, he would listen with the
utmost attention to his arguments ; and it was from no
want of respect to him he now declined to go into mat-
ters so extraneous to the subject now in hand. As to the
advice which the noble earl gave in sending out a pleni-
potentiary, the noble earl bad not been correctly in-
formed as to the motives which induced her Majesty to
take that course, but he concurred with him as to the
propriety of the proceedings which the Government
should undertake, and though it wool I not be right to
explain what were the precise instructions which had
been given, he would say that they did not in effect
differ from the opinions of the noble earl, and he thought
they were likely to place the relations between this coun-
try and China on a sath-factory footing in regard to the
substantial interests of this country.
The Earl of MALMESBURY thought it highly de-
sirable that a plenipotentiary should be sent out in lieu
of Sir J. Bowring. He had heard that the treaties be-
tween France and China were about to be renewed, and
he hoped measures would be taken to place England on
the footing of the most favoured nation. But certainly
he did not think that could be done unless a man of
superior diplomatic experience to Sir J. Bowring• were
sent out.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY replied. If the law
officers of the Crown were of opinion that the present
state of things were sanctioned by law, then he would
endeavour to have such an abomination expunged from
the statute book
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wanted to know
what it was the law officers of the Crown were to inquire
into; Their opinion would entirely depend upon the
case put before them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—The noble earl who
made this motion wanted to have the opinion of the law
officers of the Crown upon a certain state of facts—
whether they were legitimate or illegitimate.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH—What facts I
The Duke of ARGYLL—The facts contained in the
printed matter on their vote;, and which they were now
discussing.
The Earl of DERBY wished it to be distinctly under-
stood that the House of Lords would not in the slightest
degree be responsible with respect to any answer which
might be given by the law officers of the Crown.
Earl G RANVILLE—The CaSe VC2 4 this. On his as-
suring the noble cart who had brought forward this mo-
tion that the opinion of the law officers of the Crown
would be taken upon certain facts the noble earl with-
drew his motion. But if any noble lord wished to take
the sense of the house upon the motion as it stood on the
votes, it was perfectly competent for him to do so. If the
noble earl were satisfied with tile good faith of the Go-
vernment that the opinion of its law officers would be ob-
tained, then he could see no reasonable objection to that
course.
The Earl of DERBY—The noble earl might with-
draw his motion if he chose, but the house had nothing
to do with the conditions of withdrawal.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said this discussion
• allowed very clearly holy ignorant was the British Lo

The following private bills were read a second time
and ordered to be committed :—Keith and Dufftown
Railway (No. 2), Sottth Yorkshire and North Lincoln-
shire Junction _Railway, and Cork and Youghal

The Westminster Improvement Bill was withdrawn.
ROYAL ASSENT.
Mr. PIILHAN, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, ap.
neared at the table of the house, and summoned the
Speaker and the members of the house to the House of
Lor Is to hear the a ssent of the Crown given by com-
mission to various bills. (See Lords.) ,