The Sun.
London, England, 1857-05-16 00:00:00

gentleman the member for Stamford (Sir F. Thesiger)
that he was no party to any understanding that all mea-
sures of Parliamentary reform should be postponed until
next session, and he was very much surprised when he
the noble I.)rd at the head of the Government
,t de that such_ an uncierstlnling cxiste,i. The abolition
of the property qua'i9cation of intqab...,rs was intimately
connected with this questio❑ of the oaths, and he hoped
that when he movsd the s2coud reading of bin hilt for
that purpose, . the nub:e lord would not oppose the
motion.

Mr. HENLEY expressed his regret that the noble
lord had not separated tl4e,rernoval of surplus or objec-
tionable phrases from the oaths—to which probaby all
members of that houee would have asserted—from the
question of the admission of the Jews, to which wary of
them could not give their :upport. His own opinion
was unchanged, and he should vote against this bid as
lie had done against many Others of a similar character.
He did not see that there was anything ohjectiovable in
the introduction of this measure apart from a Reform
bid, from which it was a som,what different question—
Oear, hear)—hu, be that rt.• it idght, the bill was no's
before them, and when it acme on for a second rea, dng
they must deal with it. He wished to know when the
noble lord proposed to take that stage of the bill ?
L)rd PA_LMEIZSTON said, that the bill could
not he brourbt in 'mid Monday night, and be tt-rerora
°mild not fix the second reading earlier than inim,.-
dlately after Whitsunti.'c.
The question was then put, and the motion having been
agreed to, the hou4e re.-tuned, and leave was at once
given for the introduction of the hill.

TRANSPORTATION AND PENAL SERVITUDE
BILL.

On the order for the committee on this 1)11,

Lord A. V. TEMPES P moved as an amendment that
it be referred to a select committee, his view being to es-
tablish before that committee the possibility of making
our prisoners support themselves by their labour.
Sir G. GREY hoped that the house would nut accede
to the motion of the noble lord, the only effect% of which
would be the renewal of long-protracted inquiry for pur-
poses which bad been already achieved. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. Pearson had explained his views to the house at
great length on the sellreinunerative system, and eel.
Jebb and the Recorder of Birmingham bad both been
examined by c committees of that house. It would be a
throwing away of all the advantages derived from the in-
e;uiry of last year if the select committee were now to he
euewei. Besides, there was nothing in the present bill
to interfere with the noble lord's sell-reranne,a,tive views,
as it applied merely to that class of offences fJr which
tratracted terms (,f penal servitude were at present pro-
vided. At peseta convict labour was emp'ojed at Ports-
mouth and Chathatn, and in both places supplied the
place of hired labour. At Portland also, anti Ber nuda,
convicts were employed in remunerative labour, and that
would also be the case at Dartmoor, but that the class
of criminals sent there consisted of persons whose labour
would be of little velue elsewhere. The main object of
the present Dill was to enable the Government to send a
certain class of prisoners out of the country.
Mr. BAXTER believed that the only effect of the
present system of training was to send prisoners back to
society much less able to support themselves than be-
fore. He believed that immense evils had arisen from
the abolition of transportation, which had been as ad-
vantageous :o the colonies as to the mother-country.
'Having these convictions, he cordially supported the
proposition for sending a portion of our prisoners to
Western Australia, but he warned the right hon. gen-
tleman that it would be only a temporary expedient, as
the free colonists of Australia would soon raise an out-
cry against the pollution of their soil.
Mr. W. 'WILLIAMS could see no reason why con-
victs is this country should not be made to support
themselves. In the prisons in New York, Clnada, and
various parts of the Continent, the labour of the pri-
soners more than defrayed the whole expense of the
establishment.

Lord NAAS believed it was not only possible but
easy to return to transportation ; it was merely a ques-
tion of expense ; but they ought not to shrink from any
expense within reason for the purpose of re-establishing
that which be believed to be the most effectual secondary
pur ihrnent human ingenuity bad invented.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, after the most anxious in-
vestigation, found it impossible to shut his eyes to the
fact that to attempt to force convicts upon a free colo-
nial population would tend to the alienation of many of
our most important colonies. The Au-tralian colonies
felt quite as strongly on this subject as the old Ame-
rican colonies did upon the subject of taxation. It had
been proposed to establish a penal settlement in the
Gulf of Carpentaria, and the noble lord the member for
Cockermouth said that it was a mere piece of sentimen
talisin for the inhabitants of Sydney acid Moreton Day
to object to it. But in the case of Mereton B y there
were sheep walks that extended within 500 miles of the
Gulf of Carpentaria, and wherever sheep-runs existed
men easily travelled over 1 arge tracts of country, and
thus 'facilities were aff ‘rded for the escape of convicts.
He had a curious instance the other (ray of the sensibility
of the Australian colonists on this subject, for he had re-
ceived an addess from Ta-4nania, which is the extreme
south of the Australian colonies, praying that no penal
settlement should be es!ablishied in North Australia,
which could only have meant the Gulf of Carpentaria,
for in the extreme north the climate was too tropical to
allow of its being settled as a place of labour for the white
man. In his (Mr. Labouchere's) opinion, we shoe]. I act
most unwisely by attempting to disturb the present state
of things in Australia. which was, that a penal settlement
was in existence in Western Australia--a region singu-
larly adapted for the purpose, being entirely insulated
from the other part§ of the colony, there, being no land
communication between it and them ; it was not
adapted for sheep-farms ; so that there would be note
of the intercourse those farms afforded, while it had,
even by sea, more commercial intercourse with India
and America than with the other parts of Australia.
Ali these circumstances combined made it a fitting
place for a penal settlement, and above all the other
colonies agreed in the selection. He hoped it would be
understood that it was not intended to deloge Western
Australia with convicts ; but that it was only io be
made available for the purposes of transportation ;
so far as any intention was of carrying out that system
on a modified plan. He believed that it was the wildest
of notions to suppose that we could throw our conviet,B
here, there, and everywhere. Some gentlemen said, let
them be sent to the Falkland Llands, and if they
escaped it would be of no consequence, as in the pls,ce3
to which they went, they would be glad to have them.
But it was the fact that when a few hardened convicts
from Bermuda went some time since to America, a law
was passed by which a ship entering a harbour with even
one such person on board was net allowed to land its
cargo and was sent away. He believed that it was not
safe or wise to legi- late against this feeling, and fiat any
attempt to allow our convicts to find their way to other
countries would be frustrated, aud they would be re-
turned' on our hands. He could not allow any such
assertions as had been made with regard to the feelings
of the colonists on this matter witArut a protest, and
without urging that we were bound to consider the fe4.
ings of the colonists in dealing with this question.
After a short discussion, in which Mr. S. Fitz,2eralci,
Mr. Garnett, Colonel Sykes, Mr. Macartney, and Mr.
Wyld took part,

Lord VANE withdrew his amendment, and the house
resolvei itself into committee.

A debate of considerable length arose upon an amend-
ment of the first clause, proposed by Mr. Keating, the
ohj+.ict of which was to repeal the clauses in the act of
1853 which sanctioned the grant of tickets-of-leave.
The committee divided—
For the rejection of the clause B3
For its rat ration
The clause was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses were agreed to after discussion.
Mr. WILSON obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
amendment id* the Cinque Ports Act.
Mr. KENDALL moved for a select committee to in-
quire into the'law and practice with respect to the rat-
ing of Royalties of mines ; which was agreed to.
Mr. BUTT moved for a sel-ct committee to inquire
into the circumstances conneced with the employment
of women and young persons in the bleaching and dye-
ing establishments in England, Scotland, and Ireland ;
and to consider how far it may be necessary or expe-
dient .xtend to those establishments provisions regu-
lating such empl Imert ; and to report their ob•erva-
tions thereupon to the house ; which was agreed to.
The house, after some further business, adjourned at
a quarter-past 12 o'clock, until Monday.

The house was exceedingly full ; many members were
unable to obtain seats and had to stand on the fl)or of
the house beyond the bar. BAron Rothschild was pre
sent and occupied a seat in that part of the house re-
served for peers.

The Wanderer of Vienna announces that the King of
the Belgians has gained the priocipd prize of 300,000
florins, or 750,000 f., in the dra,Ning of the Austrian
loan of 1334, which took place on the Ist lust.
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