The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-18 00:00:00

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...e.e now suggestod should be converted into transport ships , will not be satisfactory to my noble friend, but it is all
by this language was, that there was some urgent public
would be available for the purposes of the proposed • that at present I can in duty say.
engagement connected with the house, Lord PALMERSTON then proceeded to state, in answer.
squadron. Contemporaneously, then, with the prepare- some private
business of peculiar importance which justified the right
tion of these ships for proceeding to the Bay of Bengal, to Mr. Griffith, that the proposed project of a ship canal
through the Isthmus of Suez n as in his opinion inconsistent
hon, gentleman in appealing to the parties and to his
he should be calling upon the merchant service to pro-
-1 with thepolicy anninterests of this country—(hear)---in a
colleagues to consent to an adjournment. No one could
vide the means for conveying troops to India, and he , • • . •
have • •
anticipated from the language of the right hon.
ventured to believe that• this mode of proceeding , political point of view, especially with regard to our Indian
gentleman that his only object was to preside over a
far preferable to the one which had been suggested.
was ,possessions. If there were a groat ship canal through the
Suez isthmus, other maritime powers with whom we might
public mewing. He was bound ay that, no matter
never ' (Hear.) Perhaps he might be allowed, in reference to come into collision would have an immense start before
what might be the nature of the tors
uc meeting,t he
this transport question, to make a further statement to England. (Hear, hear.) Besides, tho project was one tend-
would have consented to adjourn themee
partiesmeeting on ouch a
the house: It was said that a good deal of injury was ing to the separation of Turkey and Egypt—a policy which
ground. (Hear.) It, was quite true the assented,
done to the public service by sending troops in sailing the French Government had loyally disavowed at the Paris
but did so, like the noble lord and himself, under theconferences.. With regard to. the difficultyin an engineering
pointd of view, nothing was in fact
.impossible when money
impression that the adjournment was for some matter vessels instead of steam vessels. It was perfectly true
an renenne were at
.hand; but,
.speaking of the matter as a
peculituny important to the right hon. gentleman. (Hear, that in short voyages steam vessels were far more rapid
commercial speculation, he believed he had been correct
h tar.) in performing the transit than sailing ships ; but before
when he characterised it on a former occasion as one of
Mr. HORSMAN trusted the house would allow him any particular case could be decided we must look at the
those bubble companies which drew money from the pockets
to Ray a few words in answer to the extraordinary state- particular circumstances that surround it. Long voyages
of English capitalists aud gave them nothing in return.
ment—(oh, ob, and cries of "Order") of the hon. gent- at certain periods of the year were accomplished quicker
Ismail. It was extremely painful to be at issue with or
the as quick by sailing vessels, as by steam vessels, and Mr. R. STEPHENSON said that, with regard to engi-
i
the noble lord and the hon. gentleman on a question of .particular case now under consideration was one of neering difficulties, he might say that he had been over the
fact, but he was fortified by the presence of the members tnem.
The level of Lefrere taken at the time of the French inva-
of the committee, and from his own recollection and po- of c al, which mustb. e sent from this country to va-
Bien of Egypt, in 1801, stated that there was a difference
sitive knowledge, he could state that there was not the rious stations ; now it was. not always that an ads- between the level of the Red Sea and the Mediterranean of
slightest foundation, in truth or fact, for the assertion quote supply could be obtained ; while when it could
32 feet. Limon Bey had, therefore, suggested that the
that he had ever stated it was impossible for him to at- be obtained the delay of coaling prolonged the voyage
canal of Ptolemy should be cleared out, that by means of it
tend. "Oh, oh," and cheers. On the contrary, it was
to the time occupied by a sailing vessel. According to an opening between the two seas should be made. Along
()
a return he had just obtained from Lloyd's, it appeared this canal it was calculated that the difference of level
not until after the adjournment was agreed to that be
that at this time of year the time occupied by a would cause a currant running at the rate of 4 miles an
came out and saw his friends, and toll them he could
sailing vessel in performing the voyage from Lcndon to hour, a rate sufficient to keep the canal scoured, but not so
take the chair. If the adjournment had been in the
Calcutta was from ninety to one hundred days, taking strong as to prevent the transit of steam-vessels both up and
slightest degree objected to, he would not have done so,
the average of the last three or four yew's. On the down. He went into the matter believing that the differ-
He stated three times to tbe counsel, that if it was for
other hand, in the case of four steamvessels which had ence of level existed. The French engineers, however,
their convenience an adjournment might be suggested.
f the l
been employed in the execution of a contract for carry- with whom he was associated, made fresh observations
They said it would be most convenient to them, and i erence oeves, and they discovered that
ing the mails from this country to Calcutta, the average upon the diff
ce no differen in reality existed,l and that the world had for
neither they nor the parties had the slightest idea that
was 104 days. (Hear.)
it was for his convenience rather than for that of the 50
at Leoarfstlhaebnoaured underas a misapprehension.
tiet When the true
Colonel NORTH asked the Under-Secretary for War e with whom he
noble lord or any other member of the committee. Be
the question of which he had given him notice, viz.:— acteda
came to the conclusion—awn gentlemen
nin which he
could only account for the statement now made by sup-
What force of artillery is to proceed to India, and whe- concurred —that the project was not a sound one. Since
posing that the hon. gentleman and and the noble lord,
then or loot they are to take guns, ammunition, and that time he had walked over the isthmus, and considered
after sitting so long on a scrutiny, had carried into the horses, and if not, to state the reasons. What staff of the practicability of making a canal, and he had come to
house a good deal of the confusion as to facts they bad
artillery is to command and direct this force ? the conclusion that such a plan was—he would not say
displayed on the committee. (Oh, oh.) Sir J. RAMSDEN said the force would consist of six absurd or feasible, but at least one which, although engi-
Lord J. MANNERS rose to order. The right hon.
companies and two troops of horse ; they would not neering operations might overcome its difficulty, was an
gentleman had no right to use such language when heunfeasible one in a practical point of view.
take either guns or ammunition, because the Govern-had only risen to explain. (Hear.) PRESENT STATE OF INDIA,
ment were informed that the arsenals in India were
Mr, HORSMAN made no charge against his oodles- Mr. DISRAELI not having contributed to the olio of
amply supplied with both.
gues. (Hear, hear.) Ile only conceived that the wears- • • subjects which had been brought before the house--(a
JEWISH DISABILITY QUESTION.
nets produced by so long a sitting had produced confusion laugh)--would venture at last to bring forward his share.
in their minds. They had made a charge against him Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, although I am sensible of The noble lord (Palmerston) had said that their days were
for which there was not the slightest foundation, and the inconvenience of raising debates on the motion for ad- numbered, but he reminded him that their
dutiesd were
ipultiplied. Ha did think that the house l. wire
every one in the room knew that. He felt as much as journment, I rise, in consequence of a wrong suffered by
i functions and place itself as regarded the country in a most
any one how unjust it would be to the parties to protract my own constituents, to ask the decision of the Govern- ignominious position if the present session were to close
the inquiry for a single day, or to put them to a shilling ment with respect to the bill of which I have given notiee without there being a debate and discussion in that house
of expense. He was most unwilling to put them to any
for to-night. Sir, my constituents have four times elected on the affairs of India,. He thought it their first duty to
inconvenience, and he did not propose the adjournment
until ceunsel had three timer, stated it would be for their Baron Lionel de Rothschild as one of their representatives consider the state of oar Indian empire. He had under-
stood from the right hon. gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) that
—(cheers)—but he has been unable to take his seat in this
convenience. certain of the papers—those papers which contained a
Sir J. "'ARINGTON and Colonel KNox rose together, house owing to the wording of one of the oaths adminis- mere narrative of what had taken place—would, in the
and for some time both seemed inclined to persist, when tered to members. (Hear.) Successive governments have coarse of the day, be laid on the table. Bnt as
the occupants of the opposition benches called for Col. attempted to relieve him and his Jewish brethren from - regarded the other papers, which were to give informa.
Knox. the disabilities to which they are subjected, by passing tion as to what had occurred befora the outbreak for
Sir G. GREY rose to order. He believed the Speaker some months previously, they had been told that no warn-
bills in this house, and sending them to the other house of mg of the impending mutiny had been given to the Go-
bad called on the right bon. baronet.
PRINTING OF PAPERS FOR THE HOUSE. Parliament. (Hear.) It has been supposed that the City vernment. Now, if the Government were searching among
of London are satisfied with three members, and that they its archives for this warning—(a laugh)—the house might
S:r J. PAKINGTON then proceeded, but, from the
do not insist upon having a fourth to perform their fine- wait to no purpose, and be told at the last moment that
noise which prevailed, his observations were imperfectlythe search was fruitless. Hence therefore, without
heard, Hr He said he took it for granted the house bad no lions in Parliament. ;bat that is not the fact ; the City of
ing for these latter papers, he °thought that the house,
desire to prolong the discussion, and if he gave way he London is anxious to have its full representation, but they having before it a narrative of what had occurred, ought
would not have another opportunity of calling attention have consented for a time to forego that privilege in order at an early day to proceed to take into its deep and serious
to the subject of which he had given notice. He was to vindicate another privilege, namely, the great privilege consideration the affairs of India. The noble lord the
member for London (Lord J. Russell) seemed the other
informed that a rule had lately been made, to the effect . claimed by the people of this country to send members
day rather inclined to sneer at tho necessity for discussing
that papers presented to the house by command of her to this house without regard to their religions
this question, and to think that all to be considered was
Majesty were ne longer to be distributed to members, opinions. (Cheers.) Sir, the House of Lords has again how to put the outbreak down. But he would venture to
but to be placed in the vote office, and be accessible to rejected a bill which was intended to produce that result. say that it was totally impossible that the house could
members on application. He was as desirous as any It was supposed, and fairly, that the majorities in this form any idea as to whether the steps to be taken by the
man to restrain the expense of printing, but he thought house being generally small—something, indeed, between Government were adequate to the emergency of the ease,
the rule now proposed would be most inconvenient. 25 and 30, the House of Lords considered that in face of unless they knew something of its origin and cause. (Hear.)
Many important papers would be presented which would that divided state of opinion they were not bound to give They had been told that the rising sprang from a sup-
entirely escape the notice of members, for the mere in- effect to the wishes of the House of Commons ; but it ap- posed insult to the superstitions feelings of the natives.
by their late decision, that this cannot be the ground If that were so, prompt and energetic, but to a certain ex-
section in the votes of the fact that certain papers' had Pears,
of their objection to the measure : because the last bill— tent superficial measures, might meet the case. But if the
been presented would not be sufficient to direct atten-
besides being supported by the whole authority and weight causes of the outbreak were deeper, then measures of a far
tion to them. He begged to ask the Secretary of the
of the Government—had a majority of 140 in its favour different character would be required. Hence in discussing
Treasury by what authority the new rule had been upon the decisive test of its principle. (Cheers.) It is obvi- the subject the house must of necessity take a aide view
made? ous that we may send a bill next year to the House of of the causes which have led to the recent outbreak.
Mr. WILSON said the role had been adopted in Lords, and the next year another; but if so large a majority (Hear.) He proposed on the earliest occasion which was
consequence of a report of the printing committee, which as that is not to prevail, there is no chance that such a bill consistent with due notice to the house and with the conve-
had received the sanction of a select committee, pre- will be accepted by the House of Lords. (Hear.) Let me nience of the Government to ask the house to consider the
sided over by the right hon. gentleman the member for say, however, thetas these bills appeared to take the shape present condition of India—first, with regard to the cause
toe University of Cambridge. The object was to save of a change in the law, and as the last bill we sent up pro- of the recent outbreak ; and secondly, with regard to the
expense. If, however, the new z ale was found to work posed a change in the oaths to be taken by members of this question whether the means taken by the Government to
house,. it was undoubtedly within the constitutional. func-
n quell the outbreak were efficient. Ho would propose to
inconveniently, he would suggest that the whole should
tions of the House of Lords to refuse to sanction it. But, the noble lord that he should fix some day, as early as pos-
be referred again to the committee. (Hear, hear.)
sir, the question which occurs to me, and I think the house Bible, for the consideration of this question. He should,
SCREW LINE-OF-BATTLE SHIPS AS TRANS- •
wili agree not unnaturally, is, whether the City of London on that occasion. make a motion, not conceived in hostility
PORTS. is to be satisfied with the present state of their representa- to her Majesty's Government—not with a view to any
Admiral DUNCOMBE, in calling the attention of the tion, or whether, on the other hand, they are to be satis- party triumph, but with a view of placing before the house
First Lord of the Admiralty to the policy of reconsider- fled with their defeat on this occasion; or, thirdly, Whether those ideas which occurred to himself and others, on a sub-
kg the determination, as announced by him, not to em• there is any other course that can be adopted in the matter. ject which he feared was one of the most momentous of our
ploy any of the screw line of battle ships in conveying a Now, it has occurred to me that there is another course. time. In conclusion he would suggest that this day week
I
portion of the troops about to be sent to India, said there (Hear.) The house is well aware that the law now for two be given to the matter.
were at the present moment in the home ports 10 screw centuries has declared and acknowledged that persons in Lord PALMERSTON—Sir I am quite ready to admit
line of battle ships, besides a large number of frigates, courts of justice mighttake an oath in any form binding on the position which the right
lion. gentleman has laid down
which had, with one exception, been employed in the their conscience. That was an opinion declared to have —that it would be expected by the country that this house
been given in 1657, and on the proposal of the late Lord should, before it separates, give
its attention seriously to
late war, and therefore, had their machinery in perfect Denman a bill was passed, which is now an act of Perlis- the present state of the affairs of India. At the fame
order and their engines on board, and could in a very short ment, viz., the-Ist and 2d Vic., c. 10n by which all per- time, as I said on a former occasion, I should think that
time, be fitted out for the conveyance of troops to India. sons in courts of justice, and on any (suasion whatever, are the house would wish, at all events, to have the papers,
The Admiralty deserved ereatcredit for baying purchased to take an oath in the form binding on their consciences; that hon. members might read them. My right hon. friend
the Himalaya, and he wished they had 5 or 6 lige her, but and such persons falsely swearing ;hall be liable to all the the President of the Board of Control has been looking
as they had not theline of battle ships ought to be used in pains and penalties of perjury. (Hear.) But although that through the papers, and he has made a selection which
a case of such emergency. One of theme vessels would act is declaratory of the meaning of the law, there is en kill be sufficient to give every information. These papers
take an entire regiment and land it in much better order amtiguity about the words " on any occasion" which are are now in type. The right hon. gentleman suggests Fri-
than if it had been divided on board two or three ships. contained in it. (Hear.) It is doubtful whether eny day next; I, however, suggest the probability that during
hahearnst
mhaen)rai:ylisweilaer
tot thanr theos ir tieir,,itorti:iosuarmtsboif !es- the next week there will boa mail in from India, which
The moral effect produced by the appearance of these
there-
ships would be very great, and they would furniele a laree should be cleared up; that itPshiclld be declsr3d ant engact'etyd unsoutlf,amili
tttobbartiagon tidings ofkgreial.l!3rotphoertba:tete.
II ,
force of sailors and marines in case of emergency. He that in the High Court of Parliament,as well as elsewhere, if accepted, I will take care thatw it shall be reers'egea fur
thought it a bat thing that the Government were forced and on all other occasions, the oath to be administered by this question.
to hire ships in alt ea-es of emergency, for the greater the person lawfully empowered shall be taken in the form '-'l7;M.r. DISRAELI accepted the offer of the noble lord to
the emergency the greater the expense would be to them, most binding upon the party to be sworn. fix Monday week as the day for discussion.
He wished to know whether the First Lord of thaAd- Sir H. WILLOUGHBY rose to order—the noble lord Ma. ROEBUCK asked the right hon. gentleman, who
miralty would reconsider his determination, and employ was speaking to a motion on the papers for the night, and said he should propose certain resolutions, whether due no-
at least three ~r fear ships as an experiment ? was thereby clearly violating the roles of the house. lice would be given of them ?
NCK wished to take that opportunity of Lord J. RUSSELL—If it is not competent for me to go Mr. DISRAELI did not wish to bind himself as to the
Mr. BENTINCK
calling attention to two answers lately given by the on I shall propose to conclude by moving that this house terms of the motion. He would frankly say, however, that
do now adjourn, with the view of enabling the Government it would not be hostile to the Government. Anticipating
First Lord of the Admiralty and the First Lord of the to s ate what they will do on this question. (Hear.) that the Government would not give all the papers he
Treasury, fram which be inferred it, was the intention of Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—With every respect for the should require, he had thought of moving for additional
the Government to leave the country in a totally de- noble lord I must submit my question of order to the chair. papers ; but inasmuch as it would appear that the papers
fenceless state both by sea and land. The First Lord of The SPEAKER—WiII the hoe. baronet be good enough were not to be limited to those to be laid on the table that
the Admiralty had stated a few nights ago, that they to state the point of order again. night, he did not know whether the further papers would
had no ships fit to carry troops, but he (Mr. Bentinck) Sir H. WILLOUGHBY—A motion stands now on the contain the requisite information.
believed that the ships in commis-ion at home were as paper for to-night in the name of the noble lord ; it is for PULP PARCHMENT.
little adapted for purposes of defence ; and, in point of leave to introduce a bill in reference to a certain statute
ors Mr. DILLWYN called the attention of the house to the
fact, the country was now totally destitute of any marl- there named. Now it appears Isoamneirtrheatutahreitnoble(ladr.) manufacture of pulp parchment, and inquired of the Chan-
ce
article sr owf the ea Exchequerowo toeon whethertlnue the
oroue4.uAltgLquesli now manufacturetelthateeonfof
time defence. The First Lord of the Treasury had thete
night before given a most remarkable answer to a gees- E rattier think, sir,gyour, yp.redecessor
in the chair always laid it down as a rule that although Court of Exchequer as to whether or pendingnot it was paper ;
tion of the right hon. member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli), we departed much from the ordinary rule in debating the and, if so, under what conditions.
to the effect that it was not intended to call out the motion that the house at its rising should adjourn till The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
militia for the purposes of training. Monday, yet it was always considered that it was not the manufacture was to be allowed to proceed on the terms
• The SPEAKER informed the hon. gentleman that it competent for any member to take advantage of that mo- of the manufacturer keeping an account and undertaking
was quite contrary to the rules of the house thae he lion to speak on any other motion or order on the paner for to pay duty if found liable.
should refer to an answer given in a former debate, the day. The noble lord, however, now ProPhsea to make The motion for adjournment was withdrawn.
(Hear.) another monon. He proposes to move the adjournment O' The original motion that the house at its rising adjourn
Mr. BENTINCK submitted to the decision of the the house at once, as an amendment to the motion before to Monday was agreed to.
the chair.
chair, but trusted the indulgence of the house wouldTHE LAItIBETH ELECTION.
Lord J. RUSSELL—No; I said I might do so.
allow him to call attention to this very important sub- Mr. WALPOLE—WeII, ertainty, upon that motion the Mr. INGEIAbI moved that Joseph Tredre, then in cus-
ject. The noble 1 ird went on to say--(Cries of noble lord would not be in order; and as he cannot, there- tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, be discharged without pay-
" Order," "Chair.") fore, put himself in order by moving it, I submit that, in meat of fees. The witness had now been confined for four
days, aud there appeared to be some mitigating circum-
The SPEAKER again informed the hon. gentleman pursuing this debate, we are incurring the risk of falling
be was infringing the rule of the house. into great irregularity. stances affecting his case,
Mr. BENTINCK a as at a loss how to introduce the Mr. MALINS remarked upon the injustice of continuing Mr. ROEBUCK thought that he deserved confinement a
subject. The noble lord bad made a statement involving the discussion upon the noble lord's bill, seeing that many few days longer. He Iseult). not, however, oppose the
questions of very great importance, and he trusted be members who took an interest in it hail left the house under motion.
Agreed to.
the impression that the subject could not be token ont of
would not be precluded from calling attention to it— —STATE OF OUR DEFENCES.
its order.
Mr. ROEBUCK—Suppose he said it. (Hear, and The SPEAKER—On the question of order, I must, in On the motion for goine into committee of supply,
laughter ) the first place, remind the house of the extreme inconveni- Mr. BENTINCK called'
attention to the observations
Mr. BENTINCK would suppose or imagine that the ence of the course which has been pursued this evening. he had already made upon this subject; said that his
statements had not been referred to by the noble lord, and
noble lord said that he did not think it necessary to call All kinds of topics have been discussed upon the motion
out the militia, as they were under no apprehension of that the house at its rising do adjourn till Monday next; concluded die d
views,
byhe saying
ahonld tahtatthaesenaortentg had transpiredt
any disturbance to the peace of Europe. He appealed and that course, I need scarcely remind hon. members, b of
the house,
bring the
subjvece; under the consideration
to the house, what would be the consequence of carry- creates confusion in the discussions in this home that is
tel Lord PALMERSTON said that so many questions had
ing out such a doctrine, and in what a position it would greatly to be deprecated. As regards the question which()
been brought before the house on the motion for adjourn-
place the country. All the available force of the coon- has been addressed to, the chair by the hoe.hbeyeovneetthtehre
meat to Monday, that he had, he admitted, forgotten to
try was about to be sent to the East, y et at this very memnobterhfor Evdeosuttneth(aStirnoHm.
more the
I notice the statements of the hon. member. He could not
mpe tive duty' devolves
he was of opinion
moment the snap of a pistol might place the country in cannot
me than that of observing 'the roarder of business as agree with the hon. gentleman in thinking the country was
a coition of antagonism with one of the most powerful laid before the house in the votes for the day. Certainly, in a defenceless state ; on the contrary,
nations of the continent. He appealed to the house that we were quite secure from any unforseen attack, let
then, my opinion is that as the noble lord has given notice
whether it was right that the country should be left of a motion for this evening it is rather going beyond the it come from where it might. With regard to calling out
. without any means of defence ? Even in a mercantile bounds of regularity to anticipate that motion upon the the militia, he conceived that such a step was wholly un-
point of view, as a mere question of assurance, he asked question that the house at its rising do adjourn until Mon- necessary, and that its only effect would be to waste a
• the noble lord whether it was wise to leave this country day next. (Hear.) large sum of money, and put the country to a great deal of
serious inconvenience. (Bear) When the hon. gen-
at the met cy of the first comer who might think it worth Lord J. RUSSELL said, with respect to the point of
vet
ry
a broueht the matter before the) house he trusted that
while to attack it. It was not by such false economyorder, in the course of this very evening hon, members on
he should be able to moat the remarks which the hots,
that the noble lord could expect to retain the public sup- the opposite side of the house had entered into questions
port he bad acquired. which more properly belonged to the committee of supply. member might see fit to make.
His right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty had THE INDIAN QUESTION.
Mr. LIORSM AN said he was told that an expression reprehended the practice of debating such matters on the Lord J. RUSSELL took the opportunity of explaining
fell from him jest now which, if left unexplained, might, motion for adjournment, and immediately afterwards fol. that the right hon. gentleman, the member for Bucking-
• be liable to misconstraction• It seemed to he supposed lowed it himself. Having been misled by that high autho- hamshira (Mr. Disraeli), misapprehended him in supposing
that something he said rather reflected on the conduct city, it was now only fair that he should be allowed to that he thought the question of the present state of India
of the two hon. members who served with him on the state that ho had a practical object in view, from which he was not a fit subject for discussion ; what he had said was,
Bath election o onmittee ; but what he meant to say would not be diverted. The practical object was, supposing that at the moment, the affair taking the shape of a mili-
was that, after engaging in a long and tedious inquiry, the house consented to his bringing in the bill, would the tart' revolt, the first thing to be done was to put it down ;
First Lord of the Treasury agree to set apart a Go- . afterwards there ought no doubt, to be a serious discussion
they might be excused if their memory was defective on
vernment clay for its consideration? (Hear, hear.) It of the matter. He doubted, however, whether Monday
some slight matter of fact. In saying that, he had not
was obvious that unless that were done, there was next was not too soon to enter upon that discussion.
the smallest idea or intention of casting any reflection
no chance of the bill going up to the Housei of Lords RAILWAYS IN INDIA.
on their conduct. this session, and then Mr. Dillwyn's motion would be. Mr WATKIN called attention to the deficiency of
Mr. DILLWYN, replying to Mr. Newdegate's brought forward, which might involve the house in a railways in India, and moved a resolution affirming the
question, said it was with regret that he could not give serious collision with the House of Lords. (Hear.) It was, necessity of extension. He argued that if the arterial
the hon. gentleman any satisfactory information as to therefore, well worth their while that they should have an communication in India had been pat into operation some
the day when he should bring on his motion relative to answer to his question ; and, to afford the noble lord an years ago, it would have overawed the mutineers, and
the oath of abjuration. The day must depend upon the opportunity of giving it, he would conclude with moving there would never have been the disasters which had re-
course the house would take upon the bid proposed to that this house do now adjourn." I cently occurred. louring the last fourteen years England
be brought in by Lord John Russell. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought the noble lord was in had become a perfect gridiron of railways, while America
Sir C. WOOD deprecated the Practice of introducing error when ho said he had a wrong to complain of on the had extended communication to a similar degree, and
cross questions upon the motion for adjournment. The part of his constitnents. There was nothing on the jour- yet in India during that time, including those tram-
hon. and gallant member for Norfolk had raised the itn- nals of the house, there was no record to show that a fourth ways dignified by the name of railway, only 330 miles of
bortant question of the defences of the country ; but he member was returned for the City of London, because railway communication hail been opened. He thought that
submitted that the subject of our national defences was Baron Rothschild had not attempted during either this or evil would have been prevented if companies generally had
the last Parliament to take his seat. How then could it be had the power of constructing railways, instead of the pii-
far too large and important to be discussed incidentally
said that one of the members for the City of London was vilege being confined to a few favoured companies. If there
upon a mere motion for adjournment. (Hear, hear.)
unable to take his seat ? They had no right to assume ha I been a proper railway communication the troops from
With regard to the question of his boo, and gallant what the house would do until he had made the attempt. Bombay to Delhi would have been on the spotin three day s.
friend opposite (Admiral Duncombe), he could assure It was quite possible that the house would decide diffe- whereas, from the want of prapertransit at least thirtyda
him that the determination of the Admiralty to which rently to the former house, and he therefore thought the would be consumed in the transit. The hon. gentleman
he referred was come to not without due consideration member should come to the table before any further step quoted largely from the evidence of Mr. Mangles, the pre-
nor without every point that "'ld be urged either one was taken. Let Baron Rothschild come to the table and Bent Chairman of the East India Company, before Mr.
weighed, and therefore he was or the other being fully take the oaths in the manner most binding on his con. Bright's committee in 1843, in support of the, principle he
did not think that any reconsideration of the matter science, omitting the words, "On the true faith of a advocated, namely, that the railway system should be ex-
would lead to a different result. He was, however
gallant friend for giving him the Christian," and then it would be competent for any hon. tended in India, and then urged the peculiar facilities
gentleman to move a resolution to the effect, that having which India offered for railway extension, both
.with re-
- obliged to his hon. and his conscience
opportunity of stating the grounds upon which the de taken the oaths in the form most binding on , gird to the cheapness of construction and the facility of oh-
-- he should be eligible to take his seat. (Hear.) taming material. There was no doubt from the first the
termination wag come to. It was perfectly true that H immediately . . Parliament, and
He voted for such resolution in a former course takenlby the East Indian government had been oneof
none of the ships of the line now in commission were he was quite ready to support it now.. great obstructivenessto the construction of railways in India
calculated to carry troops to China, though they were THE ISTHMUS- OF SUEZ. The hon. member referred to the opinion expressed on the
perfectly well calculated for the coast defences of the Mr. GRIFFITH, pursuant to notice, then rose to call subject by Mr. Robert Stephenson. The East India Corn-
country. Most of the ships were block ships which the attention of the house to the question whether, in their pany had ohosen to put the stir veillance of those companies
served in the Baltic, or steam ships powerfully armed, deliberate opinion, it be conducive to the honour or the in the hands of military engineers, and had sought to in-
capable of moving about the coast of either interests of this country that we should manifest and avow terfere in everyminute detail connected with the formation
th exiastence of ajealons beet on our part to the pro- of the lines. In one
in-
our own or any neighbouring country, but they
jest case the engineer of the company
were not calculated for long voyages. No better jther,, ofon ethiep canal through the Isthmus of Suez; or whe- had positively refused to sanction a line running along the
with the chacroanetterrary,rit.would not be more in accordance valley of the Ganges, and one of its tributary streams,
ships could be employed for the defence of harbours
seek to maintain, if
fowediv;tenreteesited impartiality which we where the gradients were 1 in 1,00), the average on the
or rivers, but they could not be made available for trans-
troops from one side of the world to the other. prejudice, to be dealt with b to
ea"
that subject without London and
.Birmingham. being 1 in 350. The conse-
portingy the physical and engineer- quence of having the line made a perfectly dead line
No doubt there were first and second class steam ships, ing difficulties which surround its execution? had been to cause the erection of huge water huts and
. line-of-battle ships, indeed, lying in ordinary that might Lord PALMERSTON—With regard to the question of water courses to carry off the water from the line which
be employed for the transport of troops, but there were my noble friend, all I can say is, that of course I presume runs over the paddy fields. He trusted, therefore, that her
other services besides the trans the house would, as matter of courtesy, whatever the opi- Majesty's Mieisters would devote their earnest and most
• port service to be pro-
, vided for. The men in the nay.y bad not yet been re- nions of hon. members may bo on the question itself, allow I serious attention to the construction and completion of the
friend leave to bring in his bill Withregard ' '
duced to tbe number voted by Parliamentand to- . to arterial system of railways in India. (Hear, hear.) The
night he should ask the house to vote 2,000 more men
, asivi z him a day afterwards, he most
giving
st consider that there hon. member next proceeded to refer to the obstacles which
very important matters still under discussion in had b •
for the service, probably the explanation he wasconstruction of the Mad-
are many
days I been placed in the way of the . .
now the house—that our are, as may say, numbered; ram Railway. The system of routine required to be com-
giving would have come better when they got into corn- and that therefore it is impossible for me, until the public plied with in India was such as if adopted in this country
mittee. He was going to ask for this vote of men to business shall advance in a more decided manner, to state would effectually put an end to progress. In the case of
' enable him to send a squadron to the Indian Ocean— ' that we can give to any hon. member a day for any bill the Scinde Railway there existed the same obstacles on the
and if he obtained the vote the very wool, whiebit was which he may think fit to bring in. I fear that answer part of the East India Company. A very large amount of

money had been subscribed in this country for the cornple- • coed to Calcutta. No one can find fault with that decision, Smith]. Well, then, the matter was zi ill worse if the right hon.
tion of these railways—a considerable share of it was in ! but the noble lord went on to say there would still be a g mtleman sought to prove his case by appealing to a public
the possession of the East India Company, and it only re- force at Canton quite sufficient to enforce compliance with letter which had not been laid before the house. He (Mr.
quired the interference of the house to give an increased the demands of the government. That answer gave rise D Israeli) could not forget that before the late dissolution of
impetus towards the completion of railways in India. The to a question which he did not doubt the committee would Parliatnett lion gentlemen opposite had cheered b sc. use
hon. member concluded by moving his resolution. ; think of very considerable importance. He could under- Canton had been bomber led, and that at present they
Mr. V. SMITH s,id that as regarded any interference on stand that if a land force was in po,session of Canton, it cheered becauee that cite h‘d not been bombarded. (Hear.)
the past of the Government in putting obstacles in the way : might make the viceroy yield. The committee should , Lord PA LMERSTON said he apprehended that the
of the progress of the railway, the hon. member had for- i recollect all this time they were not at war, notwith- principle which governed the reading of letters was, thot if
gotten the fact tnat the East India Company had guaran- standing the hustings declaration of gentlemen that they • a minister used in his place a communication if either a
teed 5 per cent. upon the money expended in the construe- were for the prosecution of the war ; the government never l public or private character, he was bound to lay before the
tionof theserailways, and it was butright that the company said they were at war. (Hear, hear). If Canton was taken house that portion of it which he had quoted ; and if the
should exercise some amount of surveillance in the con- there might be a prospect of obtaining all that was de- house should think that any portion of it which he had
truction of those railways. No doubt it would be a great mended; but what could a naval force do when the not read might alter the impression created by that por-
advantage to the Indian Government to have the use of rail- differences were confined to Canton ? The gun-boats might tion which he had read, he might bo fairly required to pro-
ways for the conveyance of troops to different parts of the destroy a number of junks, but that would make no duce the entire document. But he (Lord Palmerston) could
country. No blame whatever was to be attached to the i alteration in the disposition of the authorities at Canton. ' not admit that a minister might not, like any other mem-
Indian Government in the matter of the construction of The only effectual use that could be made of the naval force bar make use of information conveyed in a private letter;
those railways. It was entirely an affair of the different would be to bloekade the northern ports. But there had and, indeed, the house frequently evinced its desire to re-
companies, and it was for them to make as great progress as yet been no hostilities at these ports, but, on the con- , ceive such information. (Hear.)
as possible, and he could assure the honourable member trary, trade was carried on without any regert to the Mr. WHITE said that Canton was certainly not born-
that it would afford the greatest possible pleasure to the hostilities between Commissioner Yeh and Sir John Bow- beaded in the sense in which the word was ordinarily un-
Indian Government to see the rail way system completed ring—(a laugh) —he therefore wished to know whether, as derstood both by civilians and by members of the military
and developed in India. So . far as he was concerned, he there was only a naval force in those seas, it was intended profession, which was the pouring in of shot and shell to
should be most happy to affcrd every facility in his power to blockade the northern ports in order to obtain a com- the utter destruction of the town to compel submission.
towards the completion of the Indian railways. pliance with the demands made at Canton, for if that was They had only poured shot and shell into the Government
Mr. CRA.WFORD stated that he had been since 1840 done the partial hostilities would be turned into a war offices to show what they could do. Whether judicious or
connected with the East India Railway, which was pro- with China, and the imperial government would consider injudicious, that was not what was usually associated with
prsed to make a line of 1,100 miles in length ; and in 1855 that the empire was attr sited. He really wished to know the word bombardment. (Hear.)
that company had already opened not less than 138 miles what was 'he eiew h r Mrj esty's government, took of th's After some further discussion, in which Sir Charles
of its entire length. This was a rate of speed which, he matter, and what was the meaning of his noble friend's Napier, Mr. Henley, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
contended was quite equal to the progress made in railway l phrase that a sufficient force would still remain in China ? took part, the motion was carried.
making in England. In addition to the 138 miles already Did ho mean to transfer hostilities to the northern ports On the vote of 4,0001. for the expenses connected with
opened, works were being actively carried over 900 miles and make V( a 1 on China. He should also like to know the war in China,
on the other portions of the line of the company. So far, what was the present object of these hostilities • they Mr. PALK said he was at a loss to comprehend whether
therefore, as the company with which ho was connected first began because the governor refused to make an we were at war with China or not.
was concerned, there was no foundation whatever for the apology in writing, and refused to return on board the Lord PALMERSTON said we were not at war with the
statements of the honourable member. (Hear, hear.) In lorcha the men taken from her, whom he had already Chinese empire, but we had cause of complaint against an
one respect he concurred in the opinion expressed by the returned at the consul's house. hat the present demands officer of the Emperor, for which we sought redress.
hon. member, and that was with reference to the super- ware, he for one was totally ignorant. Ho wished to know The vote was granted.
q uagain,Ma Pt
though
h said l
l e was this
oneb brought uogfh
those
u p
who
ep
whole u
.
vision and interference of the officers of the East India whether it was intended to convert the hostilities into a On the vote for 2a 00 additional men for the sea service,
Company in India, where an amount of circumlocution and war;; and, if so, what were the demands to obtain which Lordestio
n A.
V .
T aEn
routine was adopted that could hardly be conceived in this the war was to be carried on ?
country. (Hear, hear).
Lord PALMERSTON said—lt appears, sir, that my ported the Chinese policy because he thought our flog had
Mr. GILPIN expressed himself gratified with the an- noble friend and the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) been insulted, he must say, with the right hon. member
nouncement made by the right hon. the President of the retain their former opinions with regard to what took for Bucks, that the tone of Government was far different
Board of Control of his intention to assist to the utmost place in China—(cheers) —they are perfectly welcome to from that which they adopted just before the dissolution.
of his power in developing the railway system in India by retain them ; the people of England have decided that Simultaneously with the war expedition to Persia, and
private enterprise. question—(cheers) —therefore whether my noble friend the arising in this country of an uncomfortable feeling as
Col. SYKES hoped that in a few days the house would thinks those proceedings flagitious, and whether the right to the stability of our Indian empire, there has been an
be placed in possession of accurate facts and figures in hon. gen lemon adopts and sanctions that opinion, is a mat- enormous reduction of our forces. He would ask why they
connection with railways and other enterprises in India, ter of total indifference to her Majesty's Government. had not some, proposition for increasing the number of
so as to enable the house to form accurate conclusions ou (Laughter.) Yes, of total indifference. We rest on the men in the army, by replacing the 20,000 men who, they
the subject. sanction which the people of the United Kingdom have were told, were about to proceed to India. He was asto-
Mr. AYRTON did not think that the government of given to those proceedings. (Cheers.) We are perfectly niched at th? contradictory statement which had been made
India had been-remiss in its conduct with respect to rail- content with the result of the appeal to the people against by different members of the Government as to the mode in
ways in India, but were in great danger of constructing the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) which the reinforcements were to be sent to India. He
them too rapidly. The right bon. gentleman has told us that he is perfectly could not sanction, after the attempt to stop discussion,
An HON. MEMBER complained of the slow progress satisfied in some wonderful information derived from a that the vote should be taken, and heshould move that the
-of railways in India, and instanced the case of the Groat gentleman whom he has not condescended to name, that chairman report progress.
India Peninsular Railway Company. the flag was not flying on the lorcha when she was boar_led Sir C. WOOD deprecated the inconvenient mods
Mr. WILLO UGIIBY hoped at some future time to be by the Chinese, and has argued as if the whole case turned which the hon. member had taken to introduce a discus-
able to properly place this question before the house. He on that fact. In the first place I beg to remind him that sion on the army, when the committee was occupied with a
was connected with the first railway in India, which was it was proved by eye witnesses that the flag was flying, vote for the navy. The right hon. baronet insisted on the
commenced only six years and a half ago, not fourteen and the blue peter—the signal that the vessel was about great value which the proposed addition to the navy would
years ago, as bad been stated. About 3,000 miles of rail- to sail—also. And the whole case did not turn on the fact be, in the war being carried on in the China Seas. He
way were now in course of construction, and he did not of the flag flying; lent on the fact that the vessel was lying trusted the noble lord would not persist in his motion for
, think there was any cause of complaint. for many days at Canton as a British vessel, and the Can- reporting progress.
1 The motion was negatived without a division. tonese knew she was a British vessel. I really should Admiral WALCOTT sincerely concurred in the vote, and
SUPPLY. have thought that my sight hon. friend had had enough of was only sorry that it was not for 5,000 instead of 2,000.
1 The house went into committee of supply on the vote of the lorcha question without endeavouring to thrust it so The navy was at present far from being in a state of
1500,000/. moiety of the expenses of the Persian war. unnecessarily into this debate. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) efficiency to meet any sudden emergency which might arise
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that My noble friend, however, hasasked a question much more, at a moment's notice. There was not. a single line of
Iso much time having been occupied on a former night in appropriate to the subject under discussion. My noble beetle ship at home manned and in a state of efficiency.
discussing this subject, it was unnecessary for him to friend Was evidently misunderstood what Isaid on a former He hoped, therefore, the hon. baronet would re-consider
enter into such details ache otherwise should have done. occasion. I did not say the troops had-been withdrawn his determination and ask for a greater number of men.
The town of Herat was of importance to this country from China, but that certain troops had not arrived at He would receive the support of the house and of the coun-
from its position to India, and no doubt the Government China, but had been ordered to rendezvous at Sin- try in that course. -
would have been justified in throwing the expenses of the gapore. On their way they were diverted from their original Sir C. NAPIER supported the view of the hon. and gal
war on the Indian Government, the same as was done in destination, and sent on to India. (Hear, hoar.) But no lent member.
the Affghanistan war; but the Government considered it orders have been given to withdraw troops from China; Mr. HENLEY moved that the chairman do report pro-
better to undertake the payment of a certain portion of and there are troops there now sufficient for all purposes gross.
the expense if Parliament would, give its consent. The for which troops can be required. Then, as to what wo The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not un-
right hon. gentleman said that the East India Company intend to do ; surely my noble friend must know, for it derstand that the vote was objected to. If the house
had supplied the Government with an estimate of the pro- has more than once been stated, the course the Govern- passed that vote he would postpone the other two votes till
bable final expense of the war, amountingtol,B6s,oOo/. ;so ment are pursuing in reference to these affairs. It is well Monday, when it was proposed to go on with the com-
tkat the sum now due under the arrangement between the known that Lord Elgin was sent out with instructions to mittee of supply.
Government and the East India Company was rather more endeavour to enter into communication with the Govern- Sir C. WOOD urged the same view.
than half a million. He now asked the house to grant ment of Pekin; and until the results of those communise,- Colonel KNOX protested against a vote for the navy
500,000/. ; but he should at a future time have to ask for tions are ascertained by Lord Elgin, no further operations being taken without stating the objects for which the Go-
a supplemental estimate of 30,000/. or 400,000/. to make of magnitude will be undertaken at Canton •, indeed, the eemment intended to employ the force sent to India, and
up the balance. It would not, however, be asked for season of the year would render any considerable operations without stating their intention to supply the deficiency
this year. The next vote he had to move was for the by land in the interval undesirable. My sight bon. friend thus created in the home defences of the country.
Chinese war. As a great portion of the China force the First Lord of the Admiralty is going to propose a vote Lord PALMERSTON hoped the house would agree to
would be diverted to India, the expenses of the regiments for an increase in the number of men for the navy, and he the vote. The Government could supply the deficiency in
so diverted would fall on the Indian Government, is about to send out a force of marines to reinforce the the forces of the army by recruiting immediately. If that
and, in consequence, he only now asked for a vote fleet. A. certain number of gunboats has also been sent were not sufficient they would have to consider other
of 400,000/o instead of 500,0001., as first proposed, out, which had arrived at the date of the last =manta My means. The vote then before the house was one for sup-
-1 A supplemental vote, however, would be laid before the noble friend says when these have arrived they will destroy plying such deficiency as had been alluded to.
house by the first Lord of the Admiralty for naval opera- a fleet of miserable junks. These miserable junks are war
Admiral DUNCOMBE could not conceive what reason-
tions in consequence of the war in China, amounting in junks of great magnitude which materially interrupted the able objection could be urged to the vote. Ships were-not
-
round numbers to 100,000/. At present it would be pre- communications with Hong Kone, and when the whole of of any use without men.
mature to anticipate the effects of the disturbance in India the gunboats shall have arrived,' I have no doubt they Mr. BENTINCK wished to know, if the vote were
on the English exchequer, but he thought there was nothing will be enabled to give an account of these miserable junks. agreed to, whether a full and ample opportunity would be
to fear ; and he reminded the committee that whatever (Cheers.) The course we are pursuing, therefore, is this— given to discuss the matter on bringing up the report.
was the result, the demands would have to be met in the we are not going to make war with the northern ports, be- Sir C. WOOD would bring up the report the first thing
end by the East India Company. He did not anticipate a cause they are in most friendly -relation with the British on Monday.
further demand this year on the English exchequer (be- merchants ;we are going, in the first place, to do that Lord ADOLPHUS V. TEMPEST then withdrew his
yond the sums he had moved), in consequence of the late which, according to international usage, is the fittest thing motion, when the vote,-as well as the votes of 70,0001. for
occurrences in the East. Ile proposed to meet these to do. A great outrage has been committed by the local wages of seamen, and 28,27i1. for provisions, were agreed
charges in the following manner, first premising that the authorities of Canton—we address ourselves to the Em- to without discussion.
income of the Exchequer wasgreater than the expenditure. peror of China for redress and satisfaction—we send a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
The estimate of expenditure in April last for the ensuing special mission from this country to endeavour to enter the report would stand the first order on Monday next.
year had proved greater than ho expected by 1,830,000/. into negotiations with the Imperial Government and snake The house then resumed.
In addition to that there bad been a further increase in certain demands upon it. We are not at war with China ILLICIT DISTILLATION (IRELAND) BILL.
coffee, sugar, and tea duties, beyond what he estimated at the present moment (Hear, hear, and cries of "Oh l'') This bill was read a second time.
them, of 500,000/. ; and the malt tax had given an addi- There has been a collision between the local authori- The Reformatory Schools Bill as amended was con-
tion of half a million, making a gross increase beyond what ties, Chinese and British, at Canton and Hong Kong. sidered.
he expected in April last of d 60,000/. Against this there But that does not constitute war between England The Turnpike Acts Continuance bill was read a second
was to be set off the Seund Dues, 1,135,000/. ; the Persian and China; and we must hopesthat the Imperial Govern- time.
war, 235,0001.: for China, 400,000/. ; suppemental esti- ment takes that view, and be ready to afford that saris- TheLond and AseessedTa.xes, &c., (Scotland)Acts Amend-
mate for China,loo,ooo/ee for thePrincessßoyal, 40,00..?.; faction which will render war unnecessary. But in the meet Bill, and the Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Act
making together 1,191,000/., to which then would have to possible event of a different issue, we are sen ling out is Amendment Bill were read a second time.
be added 300,000/. remaining due on the Persian war, military force to Canton to act against China should the GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) ACT (1836) AMEND-
snaking together, 2,210,0001. against an increase of Imperial Government refuse or be unable to give us the MENT BILL.
2,860,0031. over the estimates of April last. He therefore satisfaction we demand. We do not think that the diver- The Lords' amendments to this bill were considered and
hoped the house would accede to his proposition. gence of the force which was ordered to rendezvous at agreed to.
mr. WA.LPOLE expressed himself unable to understand Singapore will make any difference in the result of the
the basis upon which the East India Company and the eperatione. We hope the negotiations will render further
Government formed their estimate of the cost of the hostilities unnecessary; but should that not be the case,
Persian expedition. Having pointed out the seeming in- we shall be prepared to prosecute those operations in a
accuracies in the estimates, ho said that the house ought manner that shall enforce the reparation we demand.
to be assured that the sums asked for by the Chancellor of Mr. DISRAELI—The noble lord says the opinion of the
the Exchequer would be sufficient for the two wars. right hon. gentleman and the noble lord the member for
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there London is a matter of perfect indifference to him. (Cheers
was no inaccuracy in the estimate. It was founded on the and counter cheers.) I will leave the noble lord the mem-
estimate that 230,600/. we had paid would have been suf- bar for London and the right hon. gentleman to settle that
ficient, but since then it had been found necessary to ask question with the First Lord of the Treasury when the
for half a million. That would have been all the Govern- opportunity offers—brit I cannot help noticing the reason
meet would have been asked for this year, had it not have why the opinions of those two eminent members of this
been for the late unfortunate disturbances in India. house aro a matter of such indifference to the noble lord.
Sir E. PERRY ridiculed the idea of Herat being the The noble lord says it is because the people of England at
gate of Persia, and said that its possession was of more ad. the late general election pronounced an opinion on the sub-
vantage to Persia than to England or India. ject of the operations at Canton, and that appealing to
Sir E. COLEBROOKE considered that our late policy that national opinion he can afford to despise the opinion
in Persia had been an unfortunate one, and he thought it of those two distinguished members of the House of Com-
was better for us to strengthen rather than weaken the mons. (Cheers and laughter?) 'But, sir, if I look to the
Persian empire. lie expressed his fears that the next general verdict that was given at the late election, it was
news from India would be more unfavourable than many one, as I understood, in favour of the vigorous prosecution
honourable members appeared to think, and that we should of the war with Chins—(cheers and counter cheers)—and I
have some difficulty in maintaining our position there. am not sure that the people of England will be disposed to
Mr. AYRTON asked by what authority of law the look upon the present sentiments of the noble lord with
Government could send an order to India to apply the that perfect indifference which he is so ready to extend to
revenue of that country to English purposes, in anticipa. his noble and right hon. friends. (Hear, hear, and
tion of a vote from the house. laughter.) Is the noble lord performing the compact he
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY could not take the same son. entered into with the country at the late elution? Is the
guine view of the finances of the country as the Chancellor war being vigorously prosecuted ? Why, it ii no war at
of the Exchequer, because although the Chancellor of the all, according to the noble lord's present account. (Cheers,
Exchequer had a surplus of two millions, yet that surplus laughter, and counter cheers.) Are these hostilities being
had been produced from a sixteen-penny income tax. The carried on vigorously? There are, according to the noble
income tax of this year would probably leave them in a lord, no troops there. Why, the very issue on which Parlia-
deficiency next year. As to the vote before the house, it ment was dissolved no longer exists, and for the noble lord
was a question upon which the house had no option. , to get up to tell members of this house that he treats their
The faith of the country must be kept, the•money must opinions with indifference because .he is backed by the
be paid, and therefore it was of no use discussing it. He opinions of the people of England, when he is leaving the
wished to know from what sources the expenses of send- people of England altogether in the lurch, is certainly to me
ing the reinforcements to India would be provided? most extraordinary. (gear.) And what is the second
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply to point in the noble lord's observations? It was a charge
1 the hon. member for the Tewer Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), 1 against a member of thecommittee for havingunnecessarily
said the President of the Board of Control had full autho- dragged the China question into our debate to-night. Why
rity to send distinct supplies to the authorities in India, we have here a vote of 400,000'. to defray the expensosthat
and when those instructions were acted upon, the Indiaa have been incurred in the Chinese waters, and the noble
revenue provided the expense. With regard to the expense lord says we are not to discuss the subject of Chins.
of
to India, that would be partially borne i (Hear, and oh, oh.) No doubt these discussions are incon-
by Company and by the Home Govern- I vanient to the Government, for the people must naturally
conveyingthe
East troops
India
ment. r ask themselves why are these hostilities with China not vi-
Mr. GLADSTONE denied that the Government with I gorously prosecuted, and why is the vindication of the
which he bad been connected had held that the mainte. honour of England, which, two months ago, from every
nonce of Herat ought to be held even to the extremity of hustings in the kingdom we were told was necessary, he-
wer. They bad held that the maintenance of Herat was a portant, and requisite—why. is that delayed? (Hear.)
matter of importance, but not one of paramount impor- Because the policy of the noble lord in our own possessions
tance. With regard to the proceedings in the East, al- --in an important part of own empire, has brought about
though he agreed with the noble lord the member for Lou. a state of affairs which calls for the exercise of all those
don that they were flagitious proceedings, yet having been energies to support our rule over that part of our own em-
commenced they must be proceeded with. Asto the Chinese pire which were required for vindicating our honour in
affair it would be recollected that the whole case of the China. (Loud cheers.)
lercha the Arrow rested upon the fact of the British flag Viscount rALMERSTON—I must really take leave to
flying at the time, and from information he had received congratulate the right hon. gentleman on his belligerent in-
from British authority he found that the British flag was tentless. (Hear.) I accept it with great pleasure, and shall
not flying at the time stated. He thought that the house count on his support when the action of these operations
was entitled to ask for full information on the subject now. shall crown the wishes he so ardently expresses. I can
With regard to the accounts which had been presented assure the right hon. gentleman hewill not be disappointed.
upon these transactions, he sincerely trusted that they We are pursuing in the proper course the object which the
would not be allowed to pass into a precedent. He regretted people of this country, and I am happy to find the hon.
to find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was getting gentleman, so ardently desires—(Hear, and laughter)—
habituated to this sort of thing, for he said that neat he namely, redress for injuries and the vindication of honour.
might have to come to the house to ask for more money for But we thought it was beat to follow the usual course of
India. Now that was alarming, because if next year he international negotiation, and to apply in the first place to
came for money it would, as in the present case, be a mat- the government of the country by whose agents the injury
ter of account and not of estimate. He objected to the had been committed for that redress, before proceeding to the
principle laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, extremity of war. The hon. gentleman says I complain of
that a surplus was to be taken as a ways and means. The the subject of China being introduced into this debate.
practice of Parliament was to apply any surplus in any What I cotnplainedof was my righthon. frieud h member
given year to the extinction of the debt. He deprecated for Oxford University reviving the einestion of the lorcha.
oNv
eEr
n thoughtmen t
beforei tw o uld have
commencingh een
hostilities,well if the
that which appeared to be glowing into a system, the pre- I could not complain of the subject of China being intro-
senting in the shape of account after the fact estimates for duced, seeing that it was the subject of the vote.
British authorities in China had thought it necessary to
the control of Parliament.
money which should have berienoperedveimouasnldy
wbrhoitelhghhta.ulbndeeenr
aplpsloyrittoLtohVe LOVAINE
pay its instead of bombarding a defenceless town within 12 hours
Nh
oGur":
eE Sw
a saidotuhl
only
t in
called upon to debts.
of the first demand for redress,and
Whether the East India Company was in embarrassment . destroying hundreds of
payment of a debt which and he knew not how
lives,
or not, they only asked for the
C. WOOD had already stated that did .-
maMder. theMA
asked for no interest— Sir
was honestly due to them. They
there was any truth in the story of the bombardment of a
(laughter)—aud if the house had
borrowed the money else•
paid With defenceless town, and he had within the last •
where they would have had to have interest. ,fortnight re-
regardhe was happy to say Sir M.
mood a letter from Seymour, stating that it was
to the insurrection in Inthenot true that he had bombarded the town of Canton, or
India,
troops.
that it was confined exclusively to the Pun-thrown a single shell against any but public
thepeople were emi
jaub, our most recent acquisition, .
credit having been Lord(O caunter cheers.)
nently loyal. So far from the public
loan no less than LOVAINE said the books clearly showed that there
sinking iu India, of the last five per cent. ,
a regular bombardment. ( -
weeks. The loss by the was
470,000!. was subscribed in three
Mr• ROEBUCK—WiII the right hon. '
200 009/and h
did not exceed , ~ e • right hon. gentleman pro-
plunder of the treasure duce that letter? (Hear.)
be obliged to make
hoped that the company would notany
Sir C. WOOD —The letter I refer to is a private letter
requisition in England.
heqner then rose, but gave (Oh, oh, and laughter)--from Sir M. Seymour, but I will
The Chancellor of the Exa bring it down on Monday night, and shall have no objec-
way to
Lord J. RUSSELL, who said that as he had not heard tion to read the paragraph relating to this matter to the
house. (Hear.)
nen-
his right hon. friend's former statement, he wished to s
Several members
• • d an explanation. There here rise to speak
tion some points on which he done
amongst them—but
was some inconvenience in mixing up the discussion on
three subjects of such importance, •
Mr
and he should confine DISRAELI caught the
He said,
did not suppose -
himself to China. He would not enter into the question of he there was any gentleman in that house
the morality or justice of the proceedings there; they ha i who doubted the word of another. (Hear, hear). He was
been properly characterised by the right hon. gentleman.. I sure that no one who had sat any time in the house with
(Mr. Glaist no), but he wished to learn . .
something with the right hon. gentleman could that he was cap.
suppose
• les now being carried on able of any gross equivocation. But he (hr. Disraeli)
regard to the nature of the hostilities
of the war, should
at Canton ; for, however he might disapprove add-that he thought it would be quite monstrous
to be • that ho still wished' the reputation of the country . main- a minister should make an important statement on
tained. It appeared that the English . , , authorities there at- the authority of a document like that to which the
Ca
tempted some time in October last hostilities against.u- right hon. gentleman had referred, which was not on
ton, but from that time up to the latest accounts in May, the table of the house. It was a rule of the house
nothing had been done which could impress the authori- that every communication made to a' minister, who- Atte.
ties at Canton with any sense of the necessity of yielding ther of a public or a private character, which was Mr. Dillwyn,
to our demands. On the contrary, we , should be produced.
had retreated from used to influence opinion
the position we held some months ago. The accounts from rule were not observed a minister would enjoy a manifest The numbers were—
thence stated that the naval force there was not suffi- and unfair advantage in this conduct of ih it discussions, For the adjournment.........
cieut, nor of a nature fit to enforce our demands, and that because he might at any moment quote for his purposes a A swinat it
a military force was required, which should take the paper which was utterly unknown to other members. It
heights above Canton and the city itself, and hold them was only the other evening that the right hon. gentleman
until these demands were granted. Two or three nights the President of the Board of Control endeavoured to prove
ago the noble lord the Prime Minister stated that the troops his case by appealing to a private letter during the discus.
despatched to China would be required in India, and that &on on the important motion of the hon. and learned mem-
instructions had been sent to Lord Elgin for them to pro. ber for Shafaeld. [" Not a private letter "—from Mr. V.

THE OATHS BHA,.

-Lord LOVAINE

Lord J. RUSSELL then moved for leave to bring in the
bill of which he had given notice, to amend the act 1 and
2 Vic., intituled an act to remove doubts as to the validity
of certain oaths. The present act was brought in by Lord
Denman, and provided Meat any oath should be taken in
the way which was most binding on the conscience of the
party taking it, and that the pains and penalties of per-
jury should be inflicted on those who violated the truth
under those circumstances the same as if the persons had
been swore. He proposed to extenl that principle to the
House of Commons. He would not detain them longer
at that early hour (two o'clock) than to move for leave to
bring in the bill.
Mr. WALPOLE said the statement of the noble lord
would not lead the house to any conclusion as to the
objects of the bill. His object was to try again in the
same session, to effect the admission of the Jews into that
house. The noble lord had confounded the object of the
act 1 and 2 Victoria, which was to prevent justice failing,
while the object of the bill was to admit Jews, and set
elide the deliberate judgment of the Court of Exchequer,
which had determined that the words "on the faith of
a Christian" were a part of the substance, and not of the
form of the oath. The noble lord's attempt was a viola-
tioneof the spirit of the rules of Parliament, which were
that a question should not be discussed twice in the
same session. The object was clearly not to convince, but
to overawe the other House of Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Such a course was contrary to the dignity and authority
of Parliament, and he should oppose the introduction of
the bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the words of the act let and
2d Vic, rendered the bill of the noble lord unnecessary.
Let the house consult their own lawyer on the subject,
and not be bound by the Court of Exchequer. That act
declared that in any case whatsoever where an oath was
administered, that form should be administered whichswae
binding on his conscience. There was a precedent in that
house in the case of Mr. Pease, who had left out the words
4, on the true faith of a Christian." The House of Com-
mons were the fit judges of their own privileges as much as
the House of Lords, who in the case of Baron Wensleydale
had decided on their own privileges. But believing the
bill to be better than the existing state of things, he
should support the noble lord if he persisted, though he
should prefer to see him take the bolder course, in which
he was sure he would be supported by the people of this
country. He was willing to brave every danger, and if the
noble lord would only lead, he would find him a steady
supporter.
Mr. NEWDEG ITE moved the adjournment of the
house. The case did not apply to the House of Lords alone,
because the bill which they had rejected and the present
bill would affect the House of Lords as much as the House
of Commons. There was no truth in the statements that
they exercised any right which they denied to that house.
It was a revolutionary attempt to coerce the House of
Lords in the exercise of their privileges. He therefore
moved the adjournment of the house that those facts might
be proved by discussion. (Time )
Mr. SALISBURY contended that the course taken was
a constitutional course, he should therefore support the
noble lord, while the course of the hon. member for Shef-
field was unconstitutionel, and he could not consent to
seat Barou Rothschild by such means.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the adjournment of the house 55
Against it lO9
Majority against the adjournment
Lord J. RUSSELL, said that as hon. gentlemen seemed
to be determined to oppose, ho could not help stating that
he proposed to bring in a bill quite different to that which
had been rejected. He purposed to submit his bill to the
House of Lords. -They might approve td• that mode of
carrying the object into effect A deference appeared to
be paid to the House of Lords which was not paid to the
House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) He was of opinion,
some years ago, that the oath of that house ought to be
put literally, but two cases had induced him to change his
opinion. He alluded to the cases of Mr. Pease and. Mr.
Armitage, who had been allowed to affirm and to leave out
the words "On the true faith of a Christian." The noble
lord had quoted the opinion of Baron Alderson, that those
words were not introduced as a test of Christianity. His
belief was that this house, in the exetche of its privileges,
might admit Baron Rothschild to take an oath at the table,
and to omit those words, but he should he sorry to see
that course a 'opted, and it was for the purpose of obtain-
ing the assent of the House of Lords to what he considered
a reasonable alteration of the law that he had introduced
the hill. He wished the measure to be debated, but the
inclination of hon. gentlemen opposite was not to have it
debated ; they wished to put an end to deliberation and to
all debate on the subject. (Hear.) The question was, was
there any obstacle to Baron Rothschild taking his seat in
that house ? It was a question concerning the consti-
tuency of the City and all constituencies, and if the ques-
tion was not discussed Baron Rothschild would doubtless
feel it his duty to come to that table and demand to take
his seat there. That inconvenience to public business
could be avoided by allowing the bill to be discussed.
Mr. WHITESIDE said that it was the noble lord who
had rendered all discussion impossible. The honourable
member for Sheffield proposed, by resolution, to break the
law of the land. If the noble lord desired to have the
question discussed, let him agree to the motion for the ad-
journment of the debate.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the acceptance of the motion of ad-
journment of the house would have put an end to the bill.
Why had they not moved the adjournment of the debate
in the first instance? If Baron Rothschild came to the
table and objected to utter the words, " On the true faith
of a Christi In " he would move that he be admitted.
After some 'further discussion, in which Lord Lovaine,
Mr. Dillwyn, and Mr. Newtlegate took part.
The house divided on the question of an adjournment.
The numbers were—
For the adjournment
Against it
Majority
Mr. HUME then moved the a ljournment of the house—
For the adjournment •
Against it
Majority -46
Sir BROOKE BRIDGES rose to express a hops that en