The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-06 00:00:00

an outlay of £21,738 the Government have received a clear
gain of 4412,052 in sixteen years, or a profit of 118 per
cent. per annum." Here were some of the great works of
that eminent engineer, Sir Arthur Cotton. He had heard
it said that Sir A. Cotton's works always exceeded
the estimate ; but if that were so, the almost fabulous profits
which they produced ought to exempt him from any re-
proach on the subject. The Marquis of Dalhousie, in a de-
spatch, said—" Everywhere I found evidence of the won-
derful effect produced by irrigation, wherever the means
could be obtained ; everywhere I found lands of vast extent,
fertile properties now lying comparatively waste, but want-
ing only water to convert them into plains of the richest
cultivation, and everywhere I found amongst the people the
keenest anxiety to be supplied with that by which alone
the public delivered v
works ered o
in
1859,
they could be enabled to turn their labour to good account.
Again, Lord
said—" With ordStaitnlherye7gil a
to speech
have seen some doubt expressed whether the returns from
these works were accurately given. I have since gone
through the figures and verified them from official docu-
ments, and I find they are strictly accurate." The Hon. W.
Elliot, member of council, Madras, said, on March 18, 1850
In irrigation works the physical impediments are gene-
rally few and easily met, the returns aro sure, always con-
siderable, often immense; they have increased the wealth
of the inhabitants in a remarkable degree ; and with pro.
perty the people have acquired habits of independence, a
desire for knowledge, and for the extension of usefulness of
every description." The following was the opinion of Sir
C. Trevelyan in Oct., 1859—" Works of irrigation create
new value by an immediate and positive process with a pro-
fusion of which there is no other example. They add from
three to six fold to the annual productiveness of the land.
This is better than the annexation of new territory. The
natives are encouraged to a life of peaceful industry." In
that way a very large addition might be made to the re-
revenue without pressing upon the people, while the
people themselves would have their condition greatly im-
proved, and be enabled to become great consumers of
British produce. There could also be no doubt that,
politically, these works would be of the greatest import-
ance, because what added to the happiness and content-
ment of the people would give security to the govern-
ment. When the famine broke out this country made large
contributions with the object of relieving the distress it oc-
casioned, and it was right and humane so to do ; but if an
equivalent sum had been expended on those works, that
famine would have been obviated, and the country perhaps
rendered safe against a similar calamity for generations to
come. By the seizure of that empire we had taken upon
ourselves all the responsibility, and at the same time taken
from the people all means of improving their own financial
position or of regulating their own affairs ; and above all we
owed the performance of this duty in gratitude and obedience
to Almighty God, who had been pleased to place under the
protection of Queen Victoria the most magnificent empire
to be found in the annals of the world. The noble earl con-
cluded by moving the address in the terms of his motion.

addition to the revenue immediate." But it was also quite
necessary to show the necessity of attending to the distri-
bution of water with a view to the prevention of floods, as
by neglect of water distribution in Cuttack in 23 years there
had been seven years of inundation and two of severe inun-
dation, and in 1855 one flood of the Ganges destroyed no less
than 22,000 houses, 8,000 persons, 40,000 cattle, 20,000 acres
of crops worth £320,000. That brought him to the Godavery,
and this was the report of Capt. Haigh—" The valley of the
Godavery has an area of 130,000 square miles, or about four
times as large as Ireland. The population was estimated at
about eight millions. This valley alone contained a larger
cotton field than America. America had but four millions of
acres (about the area of Yorkshire) under cultivation of cot-
ton. The products were various and abundant—wheat, un-
surpassed in India, Indian corn, millet, peas, beans, rice,
sugar, hemp, oil seeds, chillies, safflower, and two of espe-
cial value, flax and cotton. But this country was com-
pletely blocked up by the want of roads or canals. The
time of conveyance on the backs of bullocks, which was the
only mode by which produce could be conveyed to Bombay
or Calcutta, occupied two months, and the cost per ton was
160 s. "The river," says Captain Haigh, "runs for 100
miles through the finest cotton fields of India, and may be
said to direct its course in a very direct line from the chief
cotton centre to Coringa, the best and safest port on the
eastern coast." "The river," said another authority,
" with numberless tributaries, may one day become the
Mississippi of the Sudo." Now, the estimated cost torender
navigable 472 miles, at £6lB per mile, was £292,000 ; to
render ii still cheaper for carriage, £360,000. By the expen-
diture of that sum, the time of conveyance would be reduced
to eight days, and the cost per ton to twenty-four shillings.
When they saw that that would be the result both to India
And England he thought there could be little hesitation
in incurring the expenditure necessary for opening up such
a field for the cultivation of cotton. But while he was
speaking of the Godavery, and the great advantages that
would accrue by rendering that river navigable, there was
another point of view, and that was its value as a military
work. Colonel Balfour, Inspector-General of Ordnance,
observed " on the large pecuniary saving which will ensue
not only in the conveyance of stores, but in the preservation
of human life, by reducing the risks that now attend oar
soldiery during long marches." He adds most truly,
" European lives in India are now more valuable than ever.
The march from Masulipatam to Nagpore is very circuitous,
and traverses one of the most notoriously deadly jungles in
India. The march now occupies, I believe, a month and a
half. It might be reduced to seven days by the river."
But besides the relief to the men it should be remembered
that on that line the transport of stores and cart hire
alone amounted to £lB,OOO per annum. There was
another point which materially affected the welfare of the
people of India and the revenue of the country. The article
of salt was a Government monopoly in India, but the
pressure on the natives arose not from the price charged at
the place of manufacture, but from the difficulty of trans-
port from the place of manufacture to the interior of the
country. The Indian Government by its monopoly clears
on every pound of salt 2d. Wherever it was cheap, that
was at a small advance on the cost at the pans, the people
consumed per head annually 201 b. The price of salt in
Nagpore, Berar, and generally throughout the Deccan, was
£B, 17,110, and even £l6 per ton. The consequence was
that the consumption did not exceed per head 81b. Now
the cost at the pans was raised by defect of transport from
three to six fold. The opening of water carriage of the
Godavery would reduce it to less than one-fourth ; and
the result of that would be at a very moderate com-
putation, that the Government revenue would be in-
creased by £64,000 a year in that district alone ; the
whole interest and maintenance of the works necessary
to produce this result not exceeding £lB,OOO a year. It
wos doubted whether India had great capacity for pro-
ducing cotton ; but a high authority said that " as much
cotton is wasted in India as is grown in America." The
number of acres of cotton under cultivation was estimated
at no less than 24,000,000. The number of people, from the
Himalayas to Cape Comorin, who were clothed in cotton,
was estimated at no less than 200,000,000. Then observe
to what purposes cotton was turned in India. It was used
for ropes, tents, saddles, stuffing, carpets, and textile fabrics
generally. Guzerat alone, this year, would give, though
hardly a hundredth part of India, perhaps one-third of the
ordinary supply from America. But this was owing to
Guzerat having the convenient port of Surat. These were
facts as to quantity ; and there could be very little doubt
as to the quality of the cotton which India was capable of
producing. He had spoken on the subject to Mr. Bazley,
the member for Manchester, who was a great cotton-
spinner, and a high authority on the subject. He said that
Indian cotton was equal, with all its imperfections, even
now to 75 per cent. of what is required for our own use.
He would next ask what chance there was of India being
able to produce the finest quantity of cotton to compete
with that of America. Dr. Forbes Watson, the inspector
of Indian products, stated that " in Dharwar the cultivation
of American cotton is increasing at the rate of from 30,000
to 40,000 acres a year ;" and that " the acreage last year
under this kind of cotton was 180,000, and is now equal to
the New Orleans cotton." With regard to flax imported
from India to this country the sample of last year was
valued at £64 per ton. The Punjaub and other districts
exceeded even Russia in capability to produce this article.
It was important to observe, with regard to cotton, that it
was not a question of new cultivation and of the necessity
of introducing seed and instructing the people. On the
contrary, cotton had been cultivated for several centuries in
that country, and the cultivation of it was an occupation
with which the people had long been familiar. All that they
now required was that they should have roads, canals, or
other means of transit ; and if those advantages were con-
ferred upon India he believed she would give us a supply of
cotton exceeding what could be worked up in this country.
Until, however, those facilities were given, the up-
told riches of India would remain locked up and useless.
Again as to the article of jute, we imported from India in
1841 only 3,000 tons; but in 1859 we imported 53,000. Of
wool, our importations from India in 1852 was five million
pounds; but a great demand bad arisen in the last eight
years, and the quantity imported in 1860 was upwards of 20
million pounds—the greater part of which was brought on
camels' backs for shipment, from distances varying from 200
to 600 miles. lie now came to the article of linseed. Down
to 1851 the largest quantity imported in any one year was
6,000 tons ; in 1854, the quantity was 35,988 tons ; in 1855,
owing to the Russian war, it was increased to 66,687 tons ;
in 1859, it was 96,000 tons, or nearly equal to the supply
from Russia and all other countries. If the Russian war
had done so much for the produce of linseed, what might
not tho American revolution be expected to do for that of
cotton? It would relieve us from the hazard and annoyance
of relying on a single producing country, but chiefly from
that incubus which weighed on the hearts of hundreds of
thousands—namely, the necessity of purchasing and work-
ing up slave-grown cotton. The cotton grown in India
would be that of free labour; and he believed that its im-
portation to this country would do more to put an end to
slavery in America than almost anything else they could do.
Now, as to the capability of India to consume cotton menu-
factured goods and other articles of British manufacture.
In 1851 the value of cotton manufactures (including Irish
and yarn) imported :into India from Great Britain was
£5,220,194, and of other articles £2,022,000, making a total
of £7,242,191. The proportion, in reference to the rest of the
world, of British cotton manufactures taken by India was
18 per cent. In 1859 the value of cotton manufactures taken
by India from Great Britain was £14,713,812, and of other
articles £5,131,108, making a total of £19,844,920. All this
wonderful :progress had been made in spite of war and
mutiny and other difficulties, and India was now very nearly
on the point of becoming our best customers. It had been
said by some that the people of India were listless and idle
and only fit to be governed despotically. In answer to that
he would only refer to the stimulus which the prospect of
gain or self-interest gave to the people. In the Dharwar,
which was the great cotton field in India for the produc-
tion of American cotton, "saw gins" had been largely
introduced for cleansing the cotton. So great was the
demand for these machines that the government of India
o manufactured,
eeann purchased
xapl tehhuyod utehdg
ehbrtyyhoe
the
cost ohs
natives,
trei from £ll
ul,mvlhht
who were.
r£73.le6ree
Therea c h ,
t
send an agent to this country to have them
d
the
had alreadyywere
b
ac-
cused of being idle and listless and incapables of being sti-
mulate"d by the prospect of
"
gain, a tine(' of £12,000 upon
these saw gins. The aver
age yearly sum now paid by
them under this head was £2,500. The natives were really
a people of most active commercial habits, and would carry
their produce on their heads hundreds and even thousands
of miles for sale, and if they could only make a profit of a
few rupees they would think nothing of their trouble,
and be perfectly satisfied. With respect to the
cultivation of cotton, there could be no doubt
that if the people had only a certain prospect of a reason-
able and speedy profit, there was no amount of effort they
would not cheerfully make. In that way they would get
rid of the practice of the Government making advances,
than which nothing could be more objectionable, as it made
the ryot depend upon others, and took away his indepen-
dence and self-respect. Ile could not conclude without
bringing before their lordships the great advantages which
resulted from works of irrigation in India. By way of illus-
tration he would compare the districts of Cuttack and
Tanjore, both of which were about the same size,
and situated in the deltas of great rivers, Cut-
tack in that of the Maharuddy, and Tanjore, in that of
the Cauvery. Both were also of about equal fertility. The
revenue from Cuttack was £85,000, and from Tanjore
£170,000. The land in Cuttack was worth 30s. per acre,
but in Tanjore it was worth £5. Cuttack had by far the
best natural supply of water, yet in 23 years there were
three years of famine, four of drought, seven of inundation,
two of severe inundation, and only seven of moderate sea-
sons. During this period there was expended yearly in
Cuttack on waterworks, £2,400, and in Tanjore, £11,600.
The aggregate excess of revenue frcm Tanjore over Cut-
tack, in 23 years, was therefore £6,970,000. Here was the
report of the Madras I; oard of Revenue, who were not par-
tial to the irrigation works of Sir Arthur Cotton, to the
Madras Government in 1859: "The board now approach
the third branch of the subject, the cost of the two Coleron
anicuts, and the net amount of revenue which they have
yielded to the State. The sums expended on these works,
and the percentage which the net profit yielded by them
bears to the original outlay, underwent careful scrutiny by
the Department of Public Works and the Mahramut com-
missioners, and the result at which they arrived; after
ezamining the bills and revenue statements was that for

Lord DE GREY and RIPON said their lordships must
have listened with the greatest attention to the able, elo-
quent, and forcible speech made by the noble earl who had
just sat down, and he could assure the noble lord that if he
arose to follow him it was with no intention of contesting
the principles which he had enunciated. He entirely can-
curred in all the noble lord had stated as to the importance
of these works of irrigation and internal communication.
They were of the first importance to the people of that
country. He was glad to find that his noble friend had not
been led, by the great attention he had paid to the subject,
to enter into any hostile proceedings against the Indian
Government either of this or of former years. He had the
satisfaction of saying that, although much remained to be
done in the direction pointed out by the noble earl, yet be
believed that at no time in the previous history of India
had the Government of that country been more fully alive
to the vast importance of the subject than at present.
Their lordships were aware that the works of irrigation
which had been in progress were of necessity suspended
during the late mutiny. Since its termination the
Government had set themselves heartily to work in
taking up this question, and they were as convinced as
the noble earl himself that they owed it to the people of
India to devote themselves to the development of works of
this description. He did not think that he could convey to
their lordships a better idea of the spirit by which the Go-
vernment of India was actuated in reference to this question
than by referring to the speech of Mr. Laing in proposing
his budget before the Legislative Council at Calcutta. Mr.
Laing, speaking of the expenditure upon public works, said
that the vote showed an increase instead of a reduction.
The vote for the year 1861-2 was £3,121,129, as compared
with £2,897,671 for the year 1860-1. The whole expendi-
ture upon public works for the year 1861-2 would be about
£500,000, and of that sum a large proportion would go to
the making of roads. In addition to this the Indian Go-
vernment intended to spend more money in the construction
I of canals, and especially in developing those works of irri-
gation in connexion with the canals which had proved
themselves to be of such great value. (Hear, hear.) That
was the spirit in which Mr. Laing stated it was intended
by the Indian Government to proceed in the matter during
the present year. Since the delivery of that speech
it had been his (the noble earl's) official:duty to go carefully
over the budget orders, as they were called, of the Gover-
nor-General of India, and he could assure their lordships
that he had risen from their perusal with the strongest con-
viction that the endeavour of the central Government had
been to stimulate all the local and provincial Governments
of that country to devote their energies to the carrying out
public works of this description. He might add an impor-
tant statement—namely, that the sum to be devoted to pub-
lic works this year would be applied almost exclusively to
civil and industrial works. The sum for military works,
such as barracks, would be diminished as compared with
the vote of former years, while there would be a conside-
rable increase in the amount allotted to the kind of works
referred to by the noble earl. Ought of £1,500,000 which
it was intended to spend during the present year, no less
than £1,400,000 would be devoted exclusively to carrying
out works of irrigation, and the improvement of internal
communication whether by water or by land. That sum,
however, did not entirely represent the whole of the money
which he believed would be devoted by the Indian Govern-
ment to this purposeduring the present year. His noble
friend had referred to the great results which had followed
the completion of the works in connexion with the Ganges
canal. However much the English Government in India
might have fallen short in some respects, nevertheless he
was sure their lordships would admit that the works of that
canal would always form a monument of the liberal spirit
of the British Government. (Hear, hear.) At the same
time the full benefit of that canal would not be derived
until the smaller distributory canals in connexion with it
were completed ; and the Government of India, being fully
aware of that fact, had set aside a larger sum for the com-
pletion of those tributary canals. That amount, how-
ever, would be limited by the fact that these works in-
volved the employment of a large proportion of skilled and
engineering labour, which it was difficult to command upon
a large scale in India. But to the fullest extent that the
Government could secure the services of skilled engineers
these distributory canals would be proceeded with, so as to
give the whole of the surrounding country a participation
in the benefits and advantages of the canals. The noble earl
had referred to the famine as a proof of the necessity for
such works, in which observation he (the noble lord) ex-
pressed his entire concurrence, but he was happy to say
that although the sufferings of the people in various parts
of India had been very great, yet all information tended to
show that, as compared with the famine of 1837, the people
were in a much better condition now than they were at that
time. During the late famine there had been a vast amount
of emigration from the affected districts to those in a more
prosperous part of the country. That emigration had been
to a great extent spontaneous on the part of the people, and
it was so far gratifying, as it showed intelligence, and a
' disposition. to exert themselves to meet difficulties of that
description. The noble earl had also touched upon another
question, namely, the works upon the Godavery. Un-
fortunately it had been found necessary to suspend
those works at the latter end of last year, in
consequence of the sum of money granted by the Govern-
ment not being sufficient for the purpose. But the Govern-
ment had this year allotted a very considerable sum to
carry on those works. With regard to the views expressed
by the noble earl on this matter, he (Earl de Grey and
Ripon) should be the last person to contest the importance
of opening up the district by means of these works. Every-
thing tending to connect the whole district directly with
the river must be most advantageous ; but the province of
Behar would be most immediately benefitted by the com-
pletion of the railway from Nagpoor, which he trusted
would be made within the next two years, and thus give a
direct and speedy communication with Bombay. The noble
earl, in his speech, did not make any specific recommenda •
tion as to the mode in which these works of irrigation and
internal communication ought to be pressed forward. Ho
ct\bvohyiuet lhhdGi
tsaohsvmes
euoor
nrtt
iehomenheri
ntsotncot oobnl
claimsver
upon
fiyprs ioete:metdo h
money
dhemyeaa.t the Indian Government
had allotted for such a service during the present year the
largest
sum they could be expected to allot consistently
that
att
hth
eei
tnmo
olbvnlueesy earltmh market
rk dutye intended
for
of
the completion of these works he really must say that he
differed with the noble earl in that view of the matter. Their
lordships were well aware that the Government had under-
taken to guarantee five per cent. on all moneys expended in
the construction of railways in India. Until those railways
were completed the Gcvernment had no means of repaying
themselves for the interest thus given, and it was therefore
their first duty, in order to relieve the Indian Exchequer
from this'burden, to complete the railways as quickly as pos-
sible. A loan of four millions had been authorised by the
other house of Parliament for that purpose, and altogether
about eight or ten millions would be expended upon Indian
railways in the course of the present year by the railway
companies and by the Government. lie believed there was
wveoryuldg
br great a
at
bo tdoubto
sparewh e whether
larger
theg er summo n
forey marketsuch
purposes. of t hi
As
s
country
re-
garded the importance of the question which the noble
earl had laid before their lordships, there could be no differ-
ence
r olfrds
opinion,
hips that h
andt heeG
coulduveruams assure w
e hisere noblefully
afluide friendand
ly
their
determined to carry out these works to the utmost extent
the means at their disposal would allow. He trusted, there-
fore, the noble earl would consider his object had been
gained by the statement of his views upon the subject, and
by the assurances which he had given on the part of the

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 6, 1861,

Government, and that under the circumstances he would
not think it necessary to ask the house to agree to the
motion. (Hear, hear.)
Lord LYVEDEN regretted that the expenditure upon
the public works in India was to proceed by driblets, as
Government had now a great opportunity of winning the
confidence and loyalty of the people of India. He was
bound to say that the people of India believed the Court of
Directors of the East India Company had not urged on the
construction of public works with that vigour which was
desirable, and in that belief it was natural they should look
to the Government for a different system, and it was im-
politic to disappoint them. The money could be raised
either by loans or by companies, He was not himself a
friend to the principle of Government guarantees to private
companies, but as the people of India themselves would not
help them, he felt that joint-stock companies, incorporated
to carry out large public works in India, should meet with
every encouragement from the Government, who should, as
stated by Sir A. Cotton, inspect but not interfere with their
proceedings.
Lori OVERSTONE said he also concurred with the
noble earl as to the importance of the works to which
he had alluded, but the question they had to consider
was, how far it was safe to burden the resources of the
country for their execution. He did not see from what
source the funds for them was to be derived, for Indian
credit was already pledged to a sufficient extent. He be-
lieved there could be companies got to carry out these
works at their own risk. After the statement made on the
pant of her Majesty's Government, he did not think it de-
sirable the noble earl should press his motion. Out of re-
spect for him he would not wish the house to negative it,
but would move the previous question.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had always been of
opinion that the government of the East India Company
had been very bad ; but he would be sorry to take so
gloomy a view of the financial condition of the country.
For what he said amounted to this, that the finances were
so bad, that it was impossible to obtain money upon the se-
curity of the revenue. That he could not credit, when
there was almost immediately a return of 691 per cent. upon
the money expended on works of public improvements in
India. The speech of Mr. Laing, as quoted by the noble
earl, clearly showed that there was no intention to execute
any public works but those for which they might be able to
pay out of the revenue of the year, whereas the proper
policy would be to raise a loan for that purpose, especially
for works of irrigation.
The Duke of ARGYLL said the noble marquis entirely
misunderstood his noble friend, who was not opposed to the
principls of raising loans for the construction of public
works in India. All his noble friend had argued was, that
until the finances of India were relieved from the but den
which at present pressed upon them, it would be impolitic
to put a further load upon them. There were few, he be-
lieved, who really understood how far the Indian finances
were already pledged. There was a public debt of
£100,000,000, besides which there was a guarantee on
£56,000,000 of capital embarked in railway enterprise, on
£38,000,000 of which Government would have to pay inte-
rest during the present year. There was a great mistake in
imagining that the Indian Government was neglectful of
these matters, for they had, since the time when the Mar-
quis of Hastings was Governor-General, promoted them,
and they had, since then, executed 1,840 miles of canal.
The previous question was then put and agreed to.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE,
this bill was passed through committee, and their lordships
adjourned at a quarter to eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
The SPEAKER took the chair at twelve o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS,

The Lords' amendrqents to the following bills were fur-
ther considered :—Enniskillen and Bundoran Railway ;
Midland Railway (Otley and Ilkley Extension) ; New Ross
Port and Harbour ; North Eastern Railway (Extension to
Otley, &c.) ; Parsonstown and Portumna Bridge Railway ;
and West Cheshire Railways.
The following bills were read a third time and passed :
The Glasgow (City) Lifo Assurance, &c., Company, the
Great North of Scotland Railway, and the South Essex
Water.

IRREMOVABLE POOR BILL.

The house went into committee on this bill.
On clause 1,

Mr. LOCKE said the bill made an alteration which had
not been demanded throughout the country. It involved
the question whether the parishes in the metropolis, which
were materially interested in the proposed change, should
have their wishes attended to. He wished to have the area
of rating in the metropolis extended, in order that the whole
of them should form one union, and he proposed an amend-
ment by adding to the clause the words "and for that pur-
pose the area, subject to the provisions of the Metropolis
Local Management Acts, shall be a union." This would
constitute the metropolis a union in itself.
Mr. WARNER thought great injustice would result
from the passing the first clause as it stood, but he did not
think the amendment would meet the difficulty. He ap-
proved of the bill as far as it mitigated the law of settle-
ment ; but if any member would move the total omission of
the clause he should support him.

Mr. KNIGHT did not think that Norwich had much
reason to complain. The property-tax returns showed a
great increase for that city, while the rural parishes were
being enriched at its expense. He thought Norwich had
one of the strongest cases against the extension of the area
of rating.
Mr. DODSON thought parochial rating was too nar-
row, but they might run into the opposite extreme. He
thought there might be a rating extending over
such a district as derived a community of in-
terest. Many of the labourers worked in one parish
and resided in another, therefore, as they gave one
the benefit of their labour, and the other the expenditure of
their wages, when they became chargeable he thought both
should bear the burthen. He approved of the bill as it
stood, and he hoped the amendment would be rejected.
Sir G. LEWIS said if they were to go on discussing this
bill on every point he should altogether despair of passing
it in the present session. The measure was one of great
importance, and its object was perfectly clear; it had been
thoroughly investigated in committee, and the bill was
founded upon its report. The subject they were now dis-
cussing was a totally distinct question from that embraced in
the bill. They were now engaged, in fact, in discussing the
subject of the equalisation of the rating of the metropolis.
He thought it would be wasting the time of the house if
they continued the present discussion.
Mr. BENTINCK thought the bill was one to relieve the
urban at the expense of the rural population, and such
being its object he considered it most objectionable.
Sir G. LEWIS contended that the bill, so far from
being what was described by the hon. member who had just
sat down, was one in favour of the landed interest and
against the urban parishes, but the charge was just, and
therefore the representatives of the towns did not object
to it.

Mr. HENLEY could not agree with the right hon.
baronet the Secretary for the Home Department that the
bill needed no further discussion. It was one in his
opinion that inflicted great injury on rural parishes, and he
should like to know how it would act. That it would act
with great capriciousness he was quite certain—(hear, hear)
--and he did not think they ought to be called upon to pro-
ceed with the bill until a statement had been laid before
Parliament, of all the parishes, showing how the measure
would work; but as they were going on at present, they
were working entirely in the dark. He thought if the
present measure were withdrawn for the session, Govern-
ment could obtain the necessary returns, by which they
would be enabled to deal with the subject much more
efficiently next session.
Mr. VILLIERS could not consent to the proposal of the
hon. gentleman opposite. The bill had gone through a
second reading, and he thought it was very desirable that
it should as speedily as possible go through its other stages.
He thought the proposal of the hon. member for South-
wark highly objectionable.

Mr. BARROW thought the bill a very good one.
Mr. AYRTON was of opinion that the amendment of
his hon, and learned friend the member for Southwark was
most urgently required in the bill. If the Government had
not fully considered the subject, he thought it offered very
good ground of withdrawing the bill altogether during the
present session.

Clauses 2 to 7 were agreed to.
On clause 8,

Mr. S. ESTCOLTRT thought the object of the hon.
member for Southwark both impracticable and unjust. The
amendment he had moved was merely a preliminary one,
and as it was desirable that the other clauses should be con-
sidered, he hoped the honourable member would
withdraw it from further consideration, and bring up a
new and definite clause, embodying his proposition.
when they arrived at the proper part of the bill. He
thought the bill was grounded c,n justice, and therefore he
gave it his earnest support.
Mr. WALTER hoped the hon. member would not press
his amendment to a division. He thought the bill a good
one, and therefore he gave it his support.
Sir J. SHELLEY thought the object of the hon. mem-
ber for Southwark—the equalisation of the poor rates—
was too important to be dealt with in the manner proposed,
viz , by tacking on scme words at the end of the clause of
the bill then before them. The proper way to deal with the
question was to have the whole subject fairly inquired into
before a committee, and he for one had no fear of the result.
Sir L. PALK approved of the principle of the bill, and
he should be sorry were it unnecessarily obstructed.
Mr. KNIGHT opposed the bill. lie found there were
9,000 parishes that would be injured, and only 6,000 bene-
fited, and ho should accordingly support the amendment of
t're hon, member for Southwark. Perhaps the best course
to adopt was to withdraw the bill altogether from further
coasrderation during the present session.
Mr. LOCKE, in withdrawing the amendment, said he
o
did so on the understanding that the question was to be
it tahsantot
ata havingfutur boon decided
ndencliduesdt
cinomaenyunwdaeyr, butthat
wasconsidered
n e
conside-
ration.

Mr. WARNER said he could not approve of the clause,
and expressed his intention of dividing the house upon it.
Mr. KNIGHT moved that the following words be added :
That five years' continuous residence in any parish
phall confer a settlement therein, and that four years' con-

tinuous non-residence in any parish shall forfeit and extin-
guish all claims to a settlement therein."
The proposed addition to the clause was negatived with-
out a division.

The clause was then agreed to, and ordered to stand part
of the bill.

Mr. AYRTON objected to •the term "perpetual." It
was also urged that great injustice was done some persons
when any alt3ration was attempted. Ho therefore should
move that the words "are hereby made perpetual," be
expunged, and that the words "shall remain in force
during the existence of this act," be inserted instead.

The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the clause was ordered to stand part of the bill.
On clause 9 being proposed,
Mr. S. ESTCOURT moved in line 12 to leave out after
" thereof" to the end of line 14, and insert " upon an as-
sessment calculated by adding to the annual value of the
lands and hereditaments in each of such parishes, as here-
inafter described, a sum equal in pounds sterling to the
amount in numbers of the population of such parish, ac-
cording to the last census."

Mr. VILLIERS said he thought the proposition would
lead to complications, but he left it entirely to the house to
say whether the alteration should be made. (Cries of
"Divide, divide.")

Sir W. RIDLEY and Sir B. BRIDGES thought that a divi-
sion on so important a clause should not be taken at that
moment.

The sitting was then suspended till six o'clock.

in the following spring, but the result was notthe conquest
of Lombardy and Venice, because the Peace of Villafranca
provided only that Lombardy should be surrendered to
France, in order that France might afterwards transfer it to
Sardinia. But consequent upon that war insurrections took
place in Modena, Parma, and Tuscany, and those central
duchies declared that their wishAvas to annex themselves
to the kingdom of Sardinia. There is a phrase which has
been used more than once by French Ministers, and which
was referred to by the hon. baronet the member for Tam-
worth—viz., that the favour which was given by England
to these annexations was the cause of the annexation of
Savoy and Nice to France. I understand the meaning of
that phrase to be, that Venice not having been conquered
by France or given to Sardinia, it was not in contemplation
for a considerable time that the proposed cession of Savoy
and Nice to France should take place. But then it was said
that if England had interfered in order to procure the re-
storation of Tuscany, Modena, and Parma to their
former Sovereigns, the aggrandisement of Sardinia would
not have been such that the Emperor of the French
would have asked for the cession of Savoy and Nice. What-
ever may be the truth with respect to these allegations, it
was, in the opinion of her Majesty's Government, impossible
for them to be a party in any way to counsel or to advise
that force should be used against the people of Central
Italy, with the view of obliging them to recall the Sove-
reigns whom they had ejected, and'whose rule they repu-
diated. (Hear.) Therefore, if the annexation of Savoy and
Nice to France was to be bought by the use of force to sub-
jugate the people of Central Italy, it was our opinion that
it would be far better not to interfere with the inhabitants
of the three duchies, but to proclaim aloud the principles of
non-intervention, be the consequences what they might.
(Hear.) The duchies did declare in a very solemn way, by
their representative assemblies, their wish to be annexed
to the kingdom of Sardinia. The question of the cession of
Savoy and Nice was again brought forward, and the conse-
quent negotiations terminated in the Treaty of Turin, by
which Savoy and Nice were surrendered by the King of
Sardinia to the Emperor of the French. I shall not revert
to the correspondence which took place upon that subject.
The hon. baronet the member for Tamworth has admitted
that we used the strongest language which was compatible
with friendly relations in order to expose our objections to
the Treaty of Turin. Upon various occasions we stated that
we did not agree in the opinion that an extended frontier
was necessary to France. We said even that we considered
it would be a disadvantage to France to give the example of
that annexation— (hear, hear)—and we pointed out—as a
separate, but, at the same time, a very considerable ques-
tion—that the neutrality and independence of Switzerland
would be impaired by the transfer of Savoy
.to France, in-
stead of remaining part of the dominions of the King of
Sardinia. (Hear.) That question led to further debate,
and in one of the last despatches published in the blue-book
M. Thouvenel stated that the Treaty of Turin having
referred to an understanding to be come to among the
great Powers, such understanding might be arrived at in
one of the several ways. He said it was proposed to re-
concile the 92d article of the Treaty of Vienna with the 2d
article of the Treaty of Turin, and he pointed out how that
might be done. It might be done by a conference of the
Powers of Europe ; it might be done by notes giving the
consent of Europe to the transfer, the Emperor assuming
towards the Powers those obligations which the King of Sar-
dinia had previously fulfilled—viz., that in case of war the
King of Sardinia should evacuate a certain portion of Savoy,
called the neutralized territory, and that Switzerland should
have military command in that neutralized territory during
the continuance of such war ; or, thirdly, it might be done
by an understanding between France and Switzerland,
which should be communicated to the towers of Europe.
The opinion of her M ajesty's Government was very
promptly formed, and that despatch of M. Thouvenel being
dated June 20, on the 25th of the same month a despatch
was addressed by me to Lord Cowley, in which I stated that
her Majesty's Government were prepared to accept a con-
ference on the mode in which this very important question
Should be settled. M. Thouvenel replied that the Govern-
ment of the Emperor were ready on their part to adopt the
course which the other Cabinets might desire and which
might seem to them best suited to the subject. Such was
the policy which her Majesty's Government pursued. It
was the course which Switzerland had always proposed. The
only request made by Switzerland to the Government of her
Majesty was that this question should be settled in a con-
ference of the great Powers of Europe. In proposing to
assent to a conference, therefore, we did everything that
Switzerland had ever asked. (Hear.) But it was no use for
the Emperor of the French to propose this course, or for
her Majesty's Government to assent to it as long as the
other Powers of Europe were not consenting parties. The
consent of the other Powers was not obtained. Prince Gort-
schakoff, the Minister of the Emperor of Russia, declared
himself perfectly satisfied. He said that Russia considered
that, provided Sardinia was willing to cede Savoy, and the
Emperor of the French was willing to accept it—provided
that the Emperor of the French accepted it with the obli-
gations or servitude, as they are called, to which the King
of Sardinia had been subjected by the Treaty of Vienna—
the transaction was complete; Russia had not a word of
objection to offer, and saw no need of any further conference
or negotiations. Russia, therefore, was not prepared to
send a representative to the proposed conference. The
Emperor of Austria and the King of Prussia expressed no
wish to have a conference. Their opinion was that no ad-
vantage could be derived from a conference. They there-
fore expressed by notes that they did not desire a confer-
ence. The French Minister even interpreted a note of the
Minister of the Emperor of Austria as being an acquiescence
in what had taken place, and an admission that the posses-
sion of Savoy and Nice by France was thenceforward part of
the public law of Europe. Her Majesty's Government, of
course, could not press for a conference in which the other
Powers were not willing to take part ; but they could do
one thing, and' that one thing they did. They could say
that, sufficient security not having been provided for Swit_
zerland, and the neutrality and independence of that coun-
try having, in their opinion, been impaired by the Treaty
of Turin, they could not, without further negotiation,
whether in the shape of conference or otherwise, hold
that the annexation of Savoy and Nice was• part
of the acknowledged public law of Europe. That was stated
in a diplomatic document; and, having done that, they could
not have gone further unless they had found a dispcsition in
Austria, Russia, and Prussia to agree with them in endea-
vouring to arrange such terms as would pl ace the neutrality
of Switzerland in a state of greater security. But, though
no such confer ence was assembled and no such agreement
was come to, the question of the neutrality and indepen-
dence of Switzerland as guaranteed by the Treaty of Vienna
still remained so guaranteed, and it is as obligation which I
trust the Powers will not repudiate. (Hear.) It was au
additional security to that neutrality and integrity that such
a Power as Sardinia should hold Savoy, and that a portion

The house resumed at six o'clock.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir G. C. LEWIS gave notice that the first order of the
day at the morning sitting next Tuesday was the bill that
they had discussed that morning, and as he did not appre-
hend that it would occupy much time, he should propose
when it was concluded, with the pe-mission of the house,
to bring in the Highways Bill.
THE IRISH CONVICT SYSTEM.
Sir J. ARNOTT wished to ask the Chief Secretary for
Ireland whether he had any objecti,on to lay upon the table
of the house a copy of the correspondence between Captain
Crofton and the Irish Government, complaining of the
difficulties placed in his way of carrying out the Irish con-
vict system, in consequence of the reduction of the number
of directors, and whether it is the intention of the Govern-
ment to fill up the vacancy in the direction ?
Mr. CARD WELL said the whole question was the effi-
ciency of the service, and the Government would well con-
sider whether the officers were really necessary before they
filled up the vacancy.
SPAIN AND MOROCCO.
Mr. GRIFFITH wished to ask the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether he was aware that there were
no natural or geographical obstacles to prevent or retard the
march of troops from Tetuan to Tangier, a distance of one
day's journey, by any Power having permanent possession
of Tetuan ; and whether the acquisition of the coast dis
trict, continuing down to Tetuan from Ceuta, by any Power
in possession of that fortress, would not render Ceuta, situated
directly opposite to Gibraltar, and very much near to it than
is Tangier, a place of great strategical importance, sup-
ported by a large acquired territory, and able to endanger
the security of Gibraltar by threatening the independence
of Tangier ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he must decline going into the
question at present.
EVICTIONS AT PARTRY.
On the motion for going into supply,
Mr. M‘MAHON moved for a select committee to inquire
into the recent evictions at Partry, and into the best means
for preventing the recurrence of such scenes. Ho quoted
instances of the bigotry and fanaticism of the agents of Lord
Plunkett, and of the proselytising attempts carried on under
pretence of education—showing the cruelty and injustice
practised on the tenants who refused to comply with these
demands. He contended that he had made out a fair case
for inquiry.
The amendm eat having been seconded by Mr. MA CQUIRE,
Mr. LEFROY said that in the first instance he was him-
self disposed to ask leave to second the motion. There was
nothing that Lord Plunkett feared less than inquiry to put
an end to the senseless and unfounded outcry which had
been raised against him. He entered at length into the
causes which had induced Lord Plunkett's agent to evict
the tenants, all of whom had been tried and convicted of
serious offences. He defended Lord Plunkett from the charge
of enforcing attendance at schools for proselytising pur-
poses, declaring that there were still a large number of
Roman Catholics on his property, some of whom sent their
children to a Roman Catholic school, and denying that Lord
Plunkett had ever evicted a tenant for any such refusal.
No grounds could, therefore, be fairly alleged to warrant
the committee demanded.
Mr. WHALLEY said that it us nothing less than an
outrage upon the time of the house to ask it to occupy
itself with this question. Lord Plunkett was accused of
proselytising, but what could a Protestant Bishop do who
was conscious of the misery inflicted wherever the Roman
Catholic religion was taught--who four times a year was
compelled to denounce it as blasphemous and idolatrous—
who was aware of its social evils and domestic miseries—
what else could he do but oppose that religion by every
means in his power, and enforce those Protestant doctrines
which were a part of the Constitution, and under which
the whole empire flourished. ? Roman Catholic doc-
trines were now discarded all over the world, and he
therefore called upon the house to put a stop to these dis-
cussions.
Mr. MAGUIRE, at considerable length, impugned the
conduct of Lord Plunkett. If due regard had been had to
tho voice of Ireland, this power of eviction would long ago
have ceased in Ireland. He pointed out the misery atten-
dant on the expulsion of so large a number of persons from
their homes, amongst whom were many children. If the
house had refused to listen to these complaints, let it be-
ware of the alternative to which it drove the Irish people of
seeking justice elsewhere.
Mr. WHITESIDE declared that these motions were in-
.tended to raise a cry to prevent the landlords from the ex-
ercise of their rights. Re denied the extent of the evic-
tions to be as great as was alleged, and declared that on
the whole the relations between landlord and tenant in Ire-
land had greatly improved.
Mr. CARDWELL said that all the arguments used on a
former occasion against the committee of inquiry into Irish
evictions told with increased for ce against the present mo-
tion. The house would adopt a measure without precedent,
and usurp a power consistent rteither with its principles
or its organisation.
The house divided, when the numbers were—
Ayes
Noes

Majority.... —sl
The motion was accordingly lost.
THE INDEPENDENCE OF SWITZERLAND.
Mr. KINGLAKE called attention to the danger which
seemed to threaten the integrity and independence of
Switzerland, and asked what progress had been made to-
wards effecting those " full and adequate arrangements"
which in her Majesty's Speech in August last were ex-
pressed to be confidently looked forward to as the means for
"securing the neutrality and independence of the Swiss
Confederation ; and whether (pending the negotiations
referred to in her Majesty's Speech), the continued occupa-
tion by France of territories which have been declared to
"form part of the neutrality of Switzerland," is sanctioned
by any agreement or understanding between the guaran-
teeing Powers. lie showed the peculiar and embarrassing
position of Switzerland, under the arrangements made at
Vienna in 1815, since the Treaty of Turin, with reference
to the provinces of Chablais, F24ucigny, and the Genevois,
the inhabitants of which had been converted to French-

men. He was desirous of obtfdning copies of any further

of the territory should be neutralised in case of war ; bu
that was not the neutrality and independence itself. Whatt
remains to be done has been eloquently stated by the hon.
baronet ; it is that Switzerland should herself assert, with-
out delay and by every means, her determination to defend
her own independence, and to maintain that neutrality
which has been guaranteed by the Powers of Europe.
(Hear.) I know not what dangers may threaten Switzer-
land, but of this I feel certain, that if the Powers abandoned
a cause so just and so strongly guaranteed as the neutrality
of that country, they would not only fail in the obligations
of treaties, they would not only commit a dishonourable act,
but they would shake the security of every St ate in Europe.
(Hear.) The hon. baronet has truly said that Great Britain
in this case cannot act alone ; but I entirely agree with him
as to the interest which she has in preserving her connec-
tions and alliances with the various Powers, and in main-
taining that independence of the several States of Europe
which is generally known by the name of the " balance of
power." (Hear.) I believe that if she tried by selfish policy

correspondence in relation to the neutralised provinces of
Savoy. The practical result he aimed at was, he said, to
shut the stable door before it wz too late.

. .
to set aside any part of her moral obligations, and endea•

Sir R. PEEL said he considared the annexation of Savoy
to France as now afait accompli; but, as regarded Swit-
zerland, we were bound to consider the question of the neu-
tralised territory in a public point of view. If we were dis-

voured to insulate herself from the other Powers, though
there might be a seeming security in that position, it would
soon fail, and she would find herself abandoned by all the

States whose interests she had disregarded. (Hear.) We
have seen in recent transactions the advantage of European
concert. There was considerable danger, many persons
thought, in what happened last year in Syria, when the

appointed in our expectations, ir► relation to that territory,
the blame, he admitted, did not rest with the British Go-
vernment. Nothing had beer'. done; but England was
only one of the parties to the Treaty of Vienna. The most

whole mind of Europe was shocked by the dreadful massa-
cres which took place in that quarter. We appeared to be
placed between two dangers. The one was that the massa-
cres would be repeated in various parts of the Turkish Em-

positive assurances had been given to Europe by Sardinia pire, and that Mahomedan fanaticism would have its full
and by France in regard to the neutralized provinces, and sway, and play a part of blood and rapine which would raise
the second article of the Treaty- of Turin declared its acces- all the Powers of Europe against the maintenance of the
sion to the 92d article of that of Vienna. He noticed the Turkish Empire. On the other hand, if European °coupe-
suggestion of the French Government, that it was owing tion were permitted, there was the danger that the occupa.
to England that France did note cede the neutralized terri- tion by one Power might be continued, and that the ex-
tory to Switzerland ; ho cited evidence of the spirit and ample might be followed by others of the Powers who were
means of resistance in that country, which was determined neighbours of Turkey. The Powers agreed in concert at
to defend its territory, and ho drew no favourable picture Paris that a body of French troops should go to Syriawith
of the present condition of Servoy, which had, he said, a view to prevent a repetition of the massacres, ancltheir
fallen a victim to a conspiracy riecretly hatched against her. extension to other parts of the TurkishEmpir?. The ti me
Lord J. RUSSELL.—I cannot deny the right of my hon. came when it appeared to us that the occupation
farmight be
friend the member for Bridgwater to ask for some explana- safely discontinued, and that there was in fact more
tion with respect to the statement made in her Majesty's danger in its continuance than in its cessation, and that
Paris.
ment, Speech at the close of the last session of Parlia- opinion was expressed to the assembled Powers at 0
-.
ment, to the effect that, although the proposed Conferences The Russian Government gave the directly oppositerarr i
F ce re
•
on the subject of the cession of Bavoy and of Nice to France nion, that there would be the greatest danger
had not been held, her Majesty confidently trusted that in linquishing the occupation of Syria; but the determination
any
e was in fact
any negotiations which might take place full and adequate to which her Majesty's Government comehad
arrangements would be made for securing, in accordance binding on all the Powers. If the Sultan
with the spirit and letter of the, Treaty of Vienna of 1815, occupation should cease, it was impossible
hear)—and her
the
the neutrality and independence of the Swiss Confederation. could insist on its prolongation—(hear,te
h Sultan in that de.
But, before I outer upon that question, it may be as well to Majesty's Government supportedsh required
that
owed his good faith, as I
refer to some circumstances which have been mentioned in Errand. The French Emperorll
expected he would, by -with-
the course of this uebate, and which,- although they have stated in this house that Ifu
been explained before, perhaps require some further elucida- ndication that the Powers are
tion. It appears now to be perfectly clear, not from any drawing his troops on the veryi fully expects
that had been appointed.
(Bear, hear.) That is one indication
in
such a manner as may
diplomatic documents, but from what has been reported and disposed to treat thesselaqiiien.
(Hear.) Again, there is this
not denied, that before the Italian war took place, in the lead to their pacifiltalo t
It is well known that the French
summer or autumn of ISSB, an agreement was come to be- very question of
tween the Emperor of the French and the Prime Minister Governmenit.havoefrseptyitaetsed_ly exhibited their preference for
for one Italian Po wer in the
of the King of Sardinia by which hopes were held out that
a eotbufeadnothtelernin the centre with the Pope at its head, and
French troops would be sent to the assistance of the Kin of
anothern,er in the south, with perhaps other smaller States i
Sardinia in caee he 'should be attacked by Austria, and by
terspersed—to the.autnaivtyourofofltaanlyi.ty B; uant
dththeepEeonpilpeeorofrthnoe;
which it was stipulated that if the result of the war should
be to give Lombardy and Venice to Sardinia, in that event
the French has amply acknowledged the legitimacy of h
country declared f
Here also herte
Savoy and Nice should be surrendered to France. As
.1d
title_. of the King of Italy. (Heavr,ernhemaren.
)t
of the Emperor
have heard the story, Count Cavour is reported to have said
oin respecting the principle
" That is a matter b be considered ;" and the expression of
eAflateheestFyrseoGoohvaerrnerennetnirtealnydatghreeeGa
his opinion or wish that it should be considered was taken !
k of the national Till of a pool* who, T
by France as an assent. (Hear, hear.) The war took place I trust, are clestiAo4 tr 9