The Sun.
London, England, 1859-02-04 00:00:00

opinion between us upon all points. (Hear, hear.) At all
times the weight of public opinion in England must exercise
a great and deserved and salutary influence on Europe, and
there never was a time when that combined public opinion
could operate with greater force and greater power than at
the critical period in which we now are. (Hear, hear.)

Before I proceed to more important topics, I will just allude
for a moment to the criticisms of my noble friend upon the
subject rather of matters which are omitted from the Speech
than of anything which is contained in that Speech, and I
will endeavour as shortly as possible to give an answer
which, I trust, will be found satisfactory. At all events
I will speak with perfect frankness, for I can assure
your lordships that neither my colleagues nor myself have
aught to conceal. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend began
by intimating his opinion as to the abstinence from certain
topics, both in the Speech and in the Address, and he con-
cluded that I had given advice to ray noble friends carefully
to avoid those particular questions to which he has ad-
verted. I can assure my noble friend that I gave no such
advice ; I did give my noble friends such information as
they desired upon the topics which are dealt with in the
Speech, and I presumed, that according to that usual
custom, my noble friends would have for the most part
addressed themselves to the topics which are treated of in
that document. • If there was any divergence from that
usual course, it would naturally be expected to arise from
the anxiety of my noble friend who seconded the Address
to take the earliest opportunity of bringing before Parlia-
ment the exceptional case of that great interest with which
he is so closely connected. I do not mean to deny that
that interest at the present moment is not in a state of con-
siderable, but I hope only temporary, depression. Into the
causes of that depression I am sure your lordships will feel
I ought not at the present moment to enter. (Hear, hear.)
I think those causes are various, but, in alluding generally
to the prosperous condition of the country, I did not mean
to convey an opinion that there were not now, as there are
at all times, certain interests which are in a less prosperous
condition than is desirable. What I wished to convey
was that the general state of the country, both as to the
condition of the people and the abundance of employment,
as well as the diminution of crime and pauperism, which in
both cases are most striking, could only be regarded as sa-
tisfactory. And as to one very important indication of the
prosperity of the humbler classes, I may refer to the vast
increase that has taken place in the course of the year in
the amount of deposits in savings banks. I have the docu-
ments, but I will not at the present moment trouble the
house with them, and will only state, that in every week
during the last quarter the amount of pauperism in this
country has been considerably below not only the last ex-
eeptional year, but also below the corresponding periods of
1857, and, moreover, so equally was that improvement
spread over the whole country that, from the accounts
taken last December, in all the 11 or 12 districts into which
England is divided for the purposes of the poor law, there
was not one district in which the amount of pauperism was
not below both the amount in 1858 and that in 1857. With
respect to the savings banks I will only state what I recol-
lect of the figures—that whereas in the last year, from the
beginning or middle of December to the middle of January,
there was an excess of withdrawals over deposits to the
extent of £600,000, in the course of the present year there
has, on the contrary, been an excess of deposits over with-
drawals, amounting to about £500,000. In point of fact,
upon balancing the accounts of the savings banks in the
two years there appears a difference in favour of their pre-
sent state of £1,100,000 as compared with preceding year.
Now, the principal matter of which my noble friend com-
plained, as not being noticed in the Speech, is the case of
the Charles et Georges. The reasons for that omission are
obvious. In the first place so many subjects are treated of
in the Speech that it is more than ordinarily lengthy, and it
was not deemed desirable to encumber it with any matters
which it was not absolutely necessary to introduce. The
case of the Charles et Georges is one upon which the Go-
vernment will not hesitate to give the house the fullest
information in its power, and I am quite sure when the
papers are before your lordships you will be satisfied that
in no respect whatever have the Government fallen short
of the requirements of the Treaty of Paris, nor
of the obligations which our long-standing friendship with
Portugal imposes. But the non-introduction of such a
subject in the Royal Speech is- easily to be accounted for.
It is not customary to introduce into the Speech questions
which may have arisen between two foreign Powers with
which the British Government is' not directly concerned.
Upon this occasion the discussion was between France and
Portugal, upon a matter as to which full information is not
before her Majesty's Government, and thus it would have
been impossible for them to 'term an accurate opinion; but
they adopted the course which I believe was suggested by
my noble friend opposite, that of offering to both parties
their best advice and friendly offices. Unfortunately, how-
ever, neither party accepted that advice, one declining it
upon one point, and the other upon a different point; but
we have not less received an assurance from Portugal of
satisfaction and gratitude for those friendly offices which
were tendered before they were asked for. No doubt, in
that question there were circumstances which enlisted in
favour of Portugal the sympathies of this country, because
it appeared as though Portugal were suffering unjustly for
attempting to put a stop to proceedings which it regarded
as a revival of the slave trade. I will not now enter upon the
discussion of that question, but I will say that we never for
a moment varied our opinion, or in the expression of that
opinion week after week to the French Government, that it
was impossible to separate the so-called free emigration
santioned by them from the commission of acts of the slave
trade in the interior of Africa, even if no irregularities were
committed by their own officers. While we have never ceased
to press that view as strongly as had been done by my noble
friend opposite, who lately filled the office of Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, I believe no recommendation, no circum-
stance could have brought the matter so home to the con-
victions of the French Government as the facts elicited by
the inquiry into this very case of the Charles et Georges, and
it is creditable to the French Government that as soonas their
own experience satisfied them of the immense difficulty, if
not impossibility, of preventing one systen from degenerat-
ing into the other, they immediately gave orders to put a stop
to the exportation of negroes from the East Coast of Africa,
where the greatest difficulties prevailed ; and now arrange-
inents are pending, with a prospect of speedy termination,
by which the French Government intends to put a complete
stop to negro emigration from either coast of Africa, and
moreover to give us cordially and readily a more active co-
operation for the suppression of the slave trade. (Hear,
hear.) 'As to the case of the lonian Islands, it is impossible
for me at the present moment to enter upon a full discussion
of the steps that have been taken in that matter. Within
a very short time the very distinguished gentleman who
hao undertaken a temporary mission to those islands will
return to this country, and be enabled to give his own
version and his own explanation of the duties he has had to
perform, and the manner in which he has performed them.
But what I would wish to state to your lordships is the
original reason why Mr. Gladstone consented to go out as
Commissionee to the lonian Islands. The statement
reached us from all sides, and the fact had become notori-
ous, that from various causes the government in those
islands had come to a dead lock, and that for years it had
been impossible for the Government and the representatives
of the lonian people to carry on satisfactorily together the
legislation of the country; and, in fact, the government
was carried on by a system of fiction, by perpetual proroga-
tions of the popular branch of the lonian Legislature. Mr.
Gladstone, my lords, was appointed Lord High Commis-
sioner Extraordinary to the lonian Islands for the purpose
of satisfying himself, by means of investigation upon the
spot, as to the real causes which stood in the way of the
prosperity and well-being of that portion of the dominions
under her Majesty's control. He accepted that mission,
which we considered his high position, his powerful abili-
ties, his great authority, the interest which he had always
taken in Grecian affairs, and his conciliatory manners,
rendered him peculiarly well qualified to undertake.
Your lordships must at the same time bear in mind
that he undertook this duty simply as a mission
of inquiry, without the slightest intention of super-
seding the gentleman who then filled the office of Lord High
Commissioner of the islands in question. Circumstances,
however, immediately afterwards transpired, for which her
Majesty's Government can be held in no way responsible,
which rendered it absolutely impossible that any improve-
ments in the position of the lonian Islands, or any reforms
in the administration of their affairs, could be introduced by
Sir J. Young with any chance of their being accepted. We
therefore thought it desirable that Mr. Gladstone should,
for a short period longer, continue to lend his services to the
country, and that he should himself be the means of recom-
mending to the Senate and people of the lonian Islands
those alterations and amendments which he might deem it
expedient to submit to their notice. Ho consented to un-
dertake that task for a short time at consideratle inconve-
nience to himself, and to launch the reforms to which I
have alluded with all the authority and advantage which
must be the result of the intimate knowledge which be has
obtained of all the circumstances and bearings of the case.
(Hear, hear.) His appointment will in the course of a few
days be brought to a dose ; he will be replaced by a per-
manent successor, and when ho resumes his seat in the
How of Commons—to which he will, I trust, be soon re-
stored—he will, I have no doubt, be able to satisfy your
lordships and the country as to-the wisdom of the polio's,
which has been adopted by the Government, and also to
furnish such explanations with respect to the present state
of the lonian Islands as he may deem to be consistent with
his duty to afford. (Hear.) If, my lords, I refrain from
touching on many of the other topics which are mentioned
in the Speech from the Throne —such, for instance, as that
which,relates to internal legislation, Or that which has refer-
ence to the treaties which have recently been concluded with
foreign Powers, it is not because I am not fully alive to
their importance, or to the greatness of the results to which
the 7 may lead, but because future occasions will arise on
which those subjects can be more conveniently dis-
cussed. (Hear, hear.) I may, however, in passing
be permitted to say with respect to the treaty
which has been concluded with Russia and to which
my noble friend who has just spoken has adverted, that it
is nat only the treaty itself, but to the whole course of pro-
ceedings adopted of late towards this conntry by the Em-
peror of Russia, that the expressions of satisfaction to be
found in her Majesty's Speech at the re-establishment of
friendly relations with that Sovereign are to be attributed.
(Hear, hear.) I make this statement because I think it is
due to the Emperor of Russia that I should bear testimony
to the fact that even before the signature of the treaty,
British subjects having been previously placed in a more
unfavourable position than the subjects of other nations, he
voluntarily conceded to them all those advantages from
which they had so long been exclusively debarred. (Hear,
hear.) Nor can I, my lord, pass over the question of treaties
without adverting to those which have been concluded with.
China and Japan, and without expressing my
high admira-
tion of the conciliatory, but, at the same time, firm and de-
termined course wbicll Lord lialgin has pursued Ls the dad-

cult position in which he was placed. (Hear, hear.) I
derive, my lords, increased satisfaction from the success
which has attended the efforts of that noble earl, and the
zeal and ability which he had displayed, from the circum-
stance that—although he was appointed to his present posi-
tion by my predecessors in office—l was one of the first to
introduce him into public life as successor to Lord Metcalfe
in Jamaica, and subsequently in the Government of Canada.
Earl GR
EY—I beg the noble earl's pardon. Lord Elgin
was not appointed Governor of Canada until after I had be-
come Secretary of State.
The Earl of DERBY—I can assure the noble earl that I
have no wish to deprive him of any credit which might
accrue to him from having appointed Lord Elgin to the
governorship of Canada. It is quite true Lord Elgin did
not succeed Lord Metcalfe in that office until the noble earl
became Secretaryof State, but it was well known previously
that Lord Metcalfe would be obliged to resign office in con-
sequence of the state of his health, and Lord Elgin was
looked upon as the person who was to supply his place.
Earl GREY—When the noble earl left the Colonial-
office Lord Metcalfe was in a state of health which rendered
his retirement from office necessary, but nothing had been
done to supply his place. Mr. Gladstone subsequently be-
came Secretary of State for the Colonies; and he appointed
General Cathcart, who was Commander of the Forces in
Canada, as Governor-General, with the concurrence of the
noble earl, inasmuch as in the state of affairs which at the
time prevailed in reference to the Oregon question it was
considered expedient that the supreme civil and military
authority should be united in the same person. At the ex-
piration of six months after the noble earl resigned his seals
of office Lord Elgin was still governor of Jamaica, and there
was no question of his resigning that position ; but when I
became Secretary of State I was of opinion that the aspect
of affairs in Canada required the presence of a governor of
great civil experience, and I therefore advised the recal of
Lord Cathcart, and the appointment of Lord Elgin in his
place. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of DERBY—I shall not pursue the question
further. I may be in error ; but, whether that be or be not
the case, the satisfaction with which my personal friendship
for Lord Elgin causes me to regard the manner in which he
has performed the duties which were recently committed to
his charge can undergo no diminution. (Hear, hear.) But,
to advert to the other topics of which mention is made in
the Royal Speech, I can assure your lordships that if I have
as yet omitted to allude to the important subjectof India,it is
not because I in the slightest degree undervalue its magni-
tude, or do not fully appreciate the great and distinguished
services of those men, civilian as well as military, by whose
efforts such great results have been attained in that country.
(Cheers.) I feel confident your lordships, without a single
exception, rejoice at the success that has already crowned
their unparalleled and inimitable exertions, and that you will
concur with her Majesty in hoping for the fulfilment of the
expectation—which God grant may at no distant day be
realised I—that her Indian empire may be completely
pacified, and that we may be able to devote all our
energies—and I am sure there is no object nearer to the
heart of the Sovereign—to the'improvement of that too long
neglected portion of her dominions, and to the obliteration
of all differences between the various classes of its inhabi-
tants. (Cheers.) Nor, my lords, do I think we need
despair that that time will soon arrive ; for, although the
unhappy rebellion which lately broke out in India still con-
tinues, yet it it does so only to a certain extent ; everything:
like organised resistance has been put down, and our troops
are now, I am happy to say, engaged rather in pursuing
bands of desperate robbers than in contending against any
formidable military display. (Hear, hear.) And now, my
lords, I come to a most important topic, to which my noble
friend opposite also adverted in the course of his speech,.
and in reference to which it affords me much pleasure to
think I can follow him throughout the entire of his obser-
vations without feeling that there exists the slightest dif-
ference of opinion between us as to the course which it is
desirable that the Government of this country should pur-
sue. The subject is one, no doubt, of considerable delicacy,
but, notwithstanding that such is the case; I feel that it is
due to your lordships, in the critical position in which mat-
ters stand, that I should speak with respect to it plainly
and unhesita'ingly. (Cheers.) lam fortunately in a posi-
tion to do so, because in the present state of Europe, and
with respect to that portion of it which now gives just
cause for anxiety, England has no separate interest to sub-
serve, no revenge to gratify, no rankling ambition to urge
her on ; and above all, and I say it emphatically, because
she has no secret engagement with any Power whatsoever
which would interfere with, fetter, or hamper her free
action. (Cheers.) But there are, my lords, principles which.
her Majesty's Government have never shrunk from express-
ing, and to which they have over and over given utterance
not in any hesitating terms, but with that frankness of
speech which my noble friend thinks we might have some
difficulty in using towards the Emperor a. the French, but
which we have not abstained from using towards all par-
ties, in order that they may be placed fully and distinctly
in possession of the views which we entertain. And if, my
lords, in the Queen's speech allusion has not been made to
,the state of apprehension under which Europe at the pre-
sent moment labours, it is simply because in them England
has no direct concern ; no direct concern. I mean, beyond
that which a great commercial and maritime power must
always have in the general peace and prosperity of Europe.
I am enabled, moreover, to say that, so far as the informa-
tion of her Majesty's Government goes, not only are we
uponperlectly Liendly terms with all the great Powers, but
I that know of no question at present pending between any
of those Powers beyond the reach of the most oreinary
diplomatic intercourse, or which could in the slighest de-
gree justify a recourse to the fatal arbitrament of war.
Nevertheless, my lords, it is not to be doubted that there
are circumstances in the present state of Europe, and in the
attitude assumed by various Powers, which are calculated
to arouse serious apprehension' and alarm. The state of
Italy is one of eonstant danger to the peace of Europe. I
concur entirely in the description which has been given by
my noble friend of the position of that unhappy country, of
the impossibility of realising that enthusiastic dream of
Italian unity which at all times and under all circum-
stances has been indulged in, but which is never likely-to
be fulfilled, simply because it is not hatred of foreigners,
but internal dissensions and internal differences of opinion
among, the Italian States, which, if even there were no
pressure from any foreign Government, would render such
an union an absolute impossibility. (Hear.) I entirely con-
cur with my noble friend as to the point at which he con-
siders that the greatest danger to the peace of Europe arises.
It may be true that the normal state a almost the
whole of Italy is that of a slumbering volcano, of which
the internal throes are exhibited by muttered rumblings,
and which at any moment is liable to burst forth in an
eruption, and to overwhelm the country in a torrent of de-
struction ; but it is not in Lombardy nor in Naples that the
main danger exists. My nob'e friend drew a just picture
of the state of government in Lombardy. Those provinces
have little to complain of in the administration of govern-
ment ; and, of late years more especially, the labours of the
Austrians have been unremittingly applied to improve the
condition of the country. The people may have certain
grievances and certain causes of discontent, but the main,
the single, the irremediable grievance is that they are placed
under the yoke, and have to submit to the government of a
different and, as they consider, of a foreign nation. (Hear,
hear.) That is a source of discontent which absorbs all
others, and in anxiety to overcome which Lombardy has too
often forgotten that of which my noble friend has properly
re minded us namely, that struggles for Italian freedom have
terminated in every case simply in a change of masters,
and that the dream of Italian independence has never been
—and it is difficult to say when it ever can be—substan-
tially realised. Whether, under these circumstances, the
Lombard provinces, rich, prosperous, and fertile as they
are, are- a source of strength to Austria, and form a desir-
abl• possesssion for her, I do not pretend to say ; but of this
there can be no doubt —and cordially do I subscribe to the
doctrine of my noble friend on the subject—that with the
internal government of Lombardy, with the manner in
which Austria exercises her dominion over her Italian pro-
vinces, be it wise or unwise, be it mild or severe, be it pru-
dent or imprudent, we have nothing to do. (Hear, hear.)
By inheritance, by long-continued possession, by the faith
of treaties which, if once broken through, must cause in-
calculable mischief to the tranquillity of Europe—by all
these ties Austria has acquired a hold over her Italian pro-
vinces of which neither we, nor any-nation, under any plea
or upon any prerext, has a right to deprive her. (Cheers.)
My lords, I say nothing of the state of Naples. The Go-
vernment of Naples is one repugnant and abhorrent to all
our notions of Government, and quite unsuited, at all events,
to any other atmosphere than that which actually sur-
rounds it. (A laugh.) But, at all events, in Naples
there has been no necessity on the part of the Sovereign
to put down discontent by the interposition and con-
trol of foreign troops. (Hear, hey%) I do not say
that, if any of the nations of Italy rose to redress
wrongs,-whether real or imaginary, exaggerated or other-
wise, it would be the part of this country—on the contrary,
I deny that it would be the interest or the duty of this coun-
try—to interpose, either for the pUrpose of maintaining
order, or of encouraging the efforts of a struggling people
and of overthrowing the existing dynasty. My opinion—an
opinion which I have 'Lever shrunk from avowing—has al-
ways been that, in matters of this kind, the de factcy Govern-
ment must ever be respected by this country, and that in
our relations with other nations we have no sort of right, as
we have no sort of interest, in interfering as to the form of
that Government, and the persons who administer it.
(Hear, hear.) It is not in Naples, however, it is not in Lom-
bardy, that we must look for the principal cause of anxiety
and 'alarm, but in that unhappy portion of Central Italy
which is subject to the temporal jurisdiction of the spiritual
head of the Roman Catholic Church. That is the real plague
spot of Italy. (Hear, hear.) It is in this point of the Penin-
sula that discontent rises to its height, and there it has risen
to such a height that it is notorious to all the world that, if
public feeling were not kept down by the presence of two
foreign armies, all the respect and veneration which are paid
to the Sovereign Pontiff in his spiritual capacity would not
prevent the overthrow of his tottering throne, or be held to
compensate in the minds of his subjects for the weak and
paltry oppression by which the Government of that country
is sustained. (Hear.) My lords, it is from the presence of
these two armies—not placed there in either case to uphold
the liberties of Italy, but only to maintain by their joint
efforts an incompetent Government—that the real danger of
serious disturbance in Italy is to be apprehended. Now, upon
both the Powers by whom these armies are kept, her Ma-
jesty's Government—whether effectually or not I do not pre-
tend to say, nor will I affirm that I entertain any sanguine
expectation as to the result—have pressed with all the ear-
nestness of friendship the necessity of coming to some under-
standing with regard to the advice they shall tender to the Pa-
pal Government for diminishing the grounds of danerous dis-
content which under the present system must exist there.
I mention these two powers especially, because it is their
mutual jealousy which keeps alive the real source of danger,
because they are the two great Roman Catholic Powers of
Europe, and because, both as havitsg local interests, and
also as being able to speak with a degree of authority and
of influence which no other States could assume, they are
obviously the parties whose union and whose harmonious
action would be most likely to be effectual with the Papal
Government. (Hear, hear.) It would be idle for any
Protestant country to pretend to proffer its advice, but we
have assured both Austria and -France that if they will
combine to give salutary counrl, our best endeavours will
not be wanting to second their efforts for the amelioration
of the internal administration of the Papal States. (Hear.)
My lords, there is one part of Italy in which, as my noble
friend very emphatically. said, up to the present moment we
have taken the deepest interest I allude, I need not say,
to that small but heroic State—one of far greater import-
ance than its geographical limits indicate--the-kingdom of
Sardinia. (Hear, hear.) That has been hitherto a bright
spot amid the surrounding gloom—(hear, hear)—and there
it has been proved experimentally that the concession of a
large amount of constitutional liberty does not impair the
loyalty of the people to their Sovereign, while it contributes
largely to the prosperity of the country. SuppOrted by the
sympathies of all the free nations in the world, strong in
the consciousness of its own rights and of its own internal
union, the policy which ought clearly to haven been pursued
by such a State was to busy itself with internal improve-
ments—(hear, hear)—not to maintain an army dispropor-
tionate to its finances and ruinous to its credit—(hear, hear)
—not to trust to the efforts of its army, however valiant,
but to rely on the sympathies of the world at large, and on
the faith of the treaties which secure its dominidns—treaties
precisely the same as those under which Austria holds her
Italian provinces. (Hear, hear,) Such was the obvious
Patel' of Sardinia, and such was the policy by which, in
the face of, and in strong, glowing contrast to, every
other

Government of Italy she might have pursued—l will -
say even now that she may yet pursue—an example of mo-
deration, of firmness, and of constitutional liberty, which
should shame the most despotic government, and lead it
not to put Sardinia down, but to imitate her institutions
and seek to attain her prosperity. (Hear.) It may be that
such a Government as I have referred to will be shamed by
the contrast which will be presented between the discontent
of its own subjects and the happiness and prosperity of the
Sardinian people, and seek to imitate a system which throws
so strong a light upon the errors of its own administration.
But, however this may be, if there were anything which
could fatally affect the estimation in which free institutions
are beginning to be held in Italy=--if there were anything
which could withdraw from Sardinia the sympathy to which
she is entitled, and which has been so largely bestowed upon
her in this country, it would be by her affording a proof, not
that free institutions tend to internal tranquillity, but
that they are calculated to encourage the warlike propensi-
ties of a monarch, and lead him into schemes of aggression
upon his neighbours under the plea of resisting an attack
from them. (Hear.) It is, therefore, in a spirit of the sin-
cerest
friendship for Sardinia, and of the deepest interest in
her well-doing, that we look with anxiety, and have given
expression to our anxiety, upon the attitude which of late
she appears disposed to take—an attitude inconsistent alike
with her interests, with her duty to society at large, and
with the maintenance of that sympathy and regard which her
previous conduct has obtained for her throughout the civi-
lised world. (Cheers.) This advice and these opinionr, not
once, but over and over again, have wo pressed on Sardinia.
(Hear.) I trust that it is not too late for that country to re-
consider the course which apparently she had contemplated.
(Hear.) Those were ominous words which fell from the
lips of the King of Sardinia, and words in such a state of
things falling from Royal lips have the deepest significance.
But I trust that Sardinia will be better advised—(hear,
hear)—and that she will reconsider the course on which
she was apparently about to enter. (Cheers.) We have
the strongest assurances on the part of Austria—and I be-
lieve those assurances—to the effect that she has not the
slightest intention of interfering in the internal concerns of
the dominions of any of her neighbours, intending to con-
fine herself within her own limits and within the obliga-
tions of treaties, and to direct her attention exclusively to
the administration of her own affairs. (Hear.) So long as
this is really the intention of Austria, Sardinia would be
most ill-advised if she should offer provocation for hostili-
ties which may involve her in an unjustifiable war, but
which, at all events, cannot but be seriously ruinous to her
internal prosperity. But there is a great danger. It is im-
possible that Sardinia, so comparatively weak as opposed to
Austria, could enter upon a struggle upon whatever plea,
and expect that it could conclude in any other result but
her own discomfiture, unless she thought that she might
rely on external aid. To no country for that aid could she
look but France ; and I cannot bring myself to believe—
looking to the manifest interests of France—looking to the
sagacity and prudence, and let me add to the:loyal adherence
to the faith of treaties which has hitherto characterised the

. ruler of that great nation, France I cannot believe, I say,
that under any circumstances, unless indeed of provocation
and aggression taking place on the part of Austria, he would
sanction on the part of Sardinia, even by his moral support
and still less by his great military mean; an unjustifiable
and aggressive war undertaken by Sardinia in violation of
treaties and without provocation from Austria. (Cheers.)
I do earnestly trust, and I do not abandon the hope, that
the Emperor of the French will still persist in that wise
and prudent, and loyal course he has hitherto pursued.
(Hear.) We have represented in friendly and earnest terms
the importance of exercising the utmost forbearance in every
respect in any differences he may have with Austria, and,
above all, of abstaining front holding out the idea
to Sardinia that any assistance would proceed from
France in case of an aggressive and unprovoked
war with Austria, and we have received assurances
that so long as Austria confines herself to her own limits

Sardinia mist not expect from France any assistance in an
aggressive war. (Cheers.) This course is consistent both
with the interests and honour of France. (Hear.) It cannot
be forgotten with what satisfaction Europe heard that me-
morable expression—" L'Empire c'est la paix." Those
words resounded throughout Europe, and were more valu-
able to the Emperor of the French than thousands of bayo-
nets and' millions of money. (Cheers.) They tended to
confirm the stability of his own dynasty, and promoted the
internal improvement of France. (Hear, hear.) If, unfor-
tunately, the Emperor should depart from such a course,
and should induce the people of Europe to believe that
those sentiments were altered, and that the new empire is
again returning to the lust of universal dominion--if Europe
should have any reason to suspect that he has any design
of placing on different thrones in Italy subordinate sove-
reigns connected with himself by alliance, and of thereby
reproducing that dangerous system the introduction of
which ultimately led to the fall of the great Napoleon, he
will shake the confidence of Europe in the intentions and
dispositions of France, and by awakening suspicion from
without, he will destroy credit at home. (Hear, hear.)
There have been indications, and so far most satisfactory
indications, on the part of the world at large, with how
much reluctance it would see a war entered into on any
ground, and there prevails a strong opinion how much war
interferes with those domestic and peaceful pursuits which
no country more than France of late has shown a &Aire for.
There can be no demand for glory on the part of the French
people. Of that they have had enough and to spare, and the
idea would be lamentable of employing their legions, so
often triumphant, gratuitously in war for the purpose of
gaining fresh laurels, unmindful of the good faith which
had hitherto kept France in the position of peace. I will
not believe, whatever may be the appearances in Europe,
that the Emperor of the French will enter into so dangerous
a course, or so greatly mistake the interests of his country,
and the interests of his dynasty, whose maintenance could
by nothing be more effectually secured than by the preva-
lence of continued peace and prosperity in France. (Cheers.)
But if, unhappily, a different course should be pursued--if,
otwithstanding the friendly efforts of this Government
made in respect to France, Austria, and Sardinia, war
should be the result of 'questions, which I know not how to
characterise—which I know not whether to style questions
or mutual suspicions, and mutual armaments, prepared to
protect each other against supposed danger—if war, I say,
should ultimately be the result, it would be a satisfaction
to the Government, though a melancholy one, that they
had done all in their power by friendly remonstrances to
prevent so formidable a calamity ; and such is their posi-
tion, that they are bound by no secret obligations, treaties,
or understandings, but are perfectly ready to take in any
contingency the course which their duty and the honour of
this country might appear to require. (Cheers.) I believe I
have now touched on most of the important points which
have been referred to; I rejoice to find that between the
noble earl and myself with respsct to the present position of
affairs, and with respect to the course which this country
ought to pursue in present circumstances, there is little or
no great difference of opinion ; and, no cloubt, a moral sup-
port will be given to the Government in the preservation of
peace by the manifestation of opinion on both sides of the
house. (Cheers.) _ _ _

Earl GREY said that it was with great pleasure he had
heard the speech of the noble earl, and he cordially con-
curred in every word he said in reference to the foreign
policy of the country. He was glad to hear the Government
was determined to maintain the faith of treaties. (Hear.)
The only passage-in the Speech from the Throne which he
had heard with regret was the following :—" The universal
introduction of steam power into naval warfare will render
necessary a temporary increase of expenditure in providing
for the reconstruction of the British navy." He did not
dispute the necessity of an increased outlay upon our
national defences, but, on the contrary, believed the time
had come, lopking at the efforts which foreign nations were
making to increase their naval power, when it was abso-
lutely necessary that we should augment our means
.of
naval defence. But the paragraph which he had cited
implied that the additional outlay was to be expended in
building large ships, according to the plan which had now
been for some time in vogue. If such a course were to
be adopted, he was persuaded it would be a great mis-
take. Upwards of twenty years ago he earnestly pressed
upon the Admiralty the inexpediency of spending largo
sums of money in building sailing line-of-battle ships,
for he was convinced that in another naval war steam would
in some way or other be the main power, and that vessels
constructed upon the old models would prove to be utterly
useless. His opinion found no favour with that or succeed-
ing Governments; we went on for many years spending
millions in increasing our sailing fleet, and the result was
precisely what he had predicted. We had now at great
expense constructed a considerable steam navy, and he was
persuaded it would be a great mistake to go on building
costly ships according to the existing systems. We ought
to be very cautious in building any considerable number of
ships beyond what we immediately employ. Our safety lay
in another policy—in keeping a large number of sailors
and officers afloat in constant training and practice for war.
If we were to commission a larger number of ships
than at present—to spend whatever additional sum could be
granted for the naval service rather in increasing our force
of men and officers actively engaged in the service of their
profession than in building ships, which, before they were
wanted, would probably be found obsolete, and, at the same
time, to accumulate an abundant supply of stores, he be-
lieved we should do far more to place the country in safety
than by spending millions of money in what was called re-
constructing fleets of line-of-battle ships. Moreover, when-
ever an emergency arose, we could, by an unsparing expe*-
diture of money, produce as many ships as might be wanted
in a very short time, but trained officers and sailors could
not be produced with the same rapidity.
The Earl of HAItDWICKE was gratified to find that
the noble earl concurred in the necessity of in some way
augmenting our naval force. The Government were
deeply sensible of the progress which the science of naval
architecture had made of late years ; they had no doubt
that still further impro'sements would be effected; and they
agreed with the noble earl that great foresight and prudence
would be required in the application of any additional
expenditure which Parliament might be disposed to
sanction. But they did not think with the noble earl
that ships of war could be produced with sufficient
rapidity whenever an emergency arose, and what
they desired was, that in the event of a naval war
England should be in a position to meet the enemy with an
ample number of the same description of vessels as those
which might be opposed to her. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM heartily agreed with his noble friend
opposite, that, in the present critical state of affairs in
Europe, it was of the utmost importance that there should
be no difference of opinion between the Government and
those on the other side of the house, but that their lord-
ships should with one heart and one voice concur in the
principles which had that night been laid down. Having
lately come from France, it might be necessary that he
should state his entire adoption of those principles, lest his
silence should be misconstrued—not in France, where there
was the most entire unanimity of opinion among all ranks
and all classes—(hear)—but in Sardinia, where it might be
supposed that he did not share the opinions which had been
so generally expressed, more especially as the course which
he took upon a former occasion in the other house of Par-
liament had already been referred to. It was then his for-
tune to lead on the attack which was made upon the Holy
Allies, as-they were called, for intermeddling in thogovern-
ment of foreign countries; and he had been asked how he
who complained of the a Three Gentlemen of Verona"—
Prussia, Austria, and Russia—for having undertaken to
put down the constitution in Spain, could abstain from
objecting to the proceedings of Austi is in Italy, and espe-
cially to the thraldom in which she was said to hold the
Lombards. His answer was short and clear. The objec-
tion taken to the proceedings of the Holy Allies was aggra-
vated, no doubt, by the circumstance that they were
endeavouring to pull down a free constitution in Spain;
bat the gravamen of the charge against them w. a tl ei
interfering in foreign affairs at all—(hear, hcar)—their un-
dertaking to perform the duties of the police of Europe;
and if, by one of those accidents or inconsistencies to which
despotism *as subject, it had happened that they had
interposed to support a free constitution against tyran-
nical rulers, the argument Would have been precisely
the same: .They had no right, even for that good cause,
applieti to the present oubjeet, Sup-
to interfere with 'the affairs of another State. He would
put a' can which