The Sun.
London, England, 1857-03-10 00:00:00

8 5 7.

turally obliged to confoim to its views upon the sub-
ject, which are totally different to our own, and the
uwial custom was for the time relaxed. Her Mej, sty's
Govertinaent thought preper, at the late Treaty of Paris,
to erwer into a general engagem,,nt by which the views
of France, Russia, arid other Powers were ceeformed
to, and those Po eers in time of war abandoned. That
special concession was not the subject of any discus-
sion in this house, and I dare say that had there been
her Maj-sty'e Government would have shown sufficient
reason to meet with its approval. It would doubtless
bare shown that it had no other course open but that of
concurrence in the wishes of its allies. However that
may be, it is to be observed that in all books upon the
subject it is stated that all those rules—"a free ship
makes free goods," and that "the goods of a belligerent
are free in a neutral vessel"—are rules a inch were con-
sidered injurious to the maritime supremacy of mari-
time countries, and in an especial degree to the mari-
time supremacy of England ; and any one who will
take the pains to look at what was stated in the argue
ineuts upon the subj ct will see that it was intended as
a blow at the maritime supremacy of this country.
Since that treaty was signed tee Secretary of State of
the United States has submitted a proposal that we
should go a step further, and that Great Britain
should agree to the proposition that all mercantile yes•
eals should be free from capture during time of war.
Now, it appears to me that, although that proposition
carries an air of humanity and philanthropy about it,
it is not one calculated to prevent war—(Hear, hear)
—and wi ich, under any circumstances, would greatly
cripple the energies of this country. (Hear, hear.) It
is obvious, in the first place, that one of the reasons
why foreign Powers are unwilling to go to war with
England is, that they foresee, as an inevitable conse-
quence, the whole of their commerce being swept off
the seas. They say, "We have a great deal of valu-
able property now at sea, and immediately upon our
declaring war with Great B itain her cruisers will get
possession of it, and we shall be greatly injured." But
if, on the contrary, they were sure that all their mer-
chant ships could cross the seas without peril, that
reason for remaining at peace would be taken
away. But examine further the effects of such
a measure. Supposing the United States were to go
to war with rw, there would be no impediment to her
marching an army into Cinada, and taking possession
of that county. We would have no pow r of carry-
ing on a war by sea because she would have no fleet to
send out against us—we would have, in fact, no power
of reprisal. It may be said that we should still retain
the power of hi wkade; but that has been limited and
restricted by the Convention of Paris, and a blockade,
to be effectual, should be such as would leave no port
open that a merchatit ve-eel could enter. That conven-
tion rendered it impossible for us to maintain an effec-
tual blockade in the Black Sea, and in time of war we
might blockade New York and Brest, but other ports in
the respective countries would be left free to carry on
the traffic. I have felt it necessary to say thus much
upon this point, because I have seen that several per-
sous, very high authorities, are disposed to entertain
these proposals, and likewise because I judged by the
report of the speech of Inc noble friend at the head of the
Government, at Liverpool, that he was rather favourably
disposed to those propositions. I may be wrong in the
view that I have formed, but my opinion is tbat if we
were to agree to that proposition our being a great naval
Power would be of no advantage to us—(hear, hear)—
and, in the first place, that a stipulation not to use our
naval power against the commercial trade of other min-
tries would be a great provocation to war on the part of
these countries, and that the cause of humanity would
not be promoted ; and secondly, because in time of war
we should be almost helpless on the seas. I trust, there•
fore, that no Minister of Great Britain will set his signa-
ture to a treaty of this sort without the greatest consi-
deration, and without having consulted competent naval
authorities upon a subject of so much importance to the
prosperity of this country. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND, in confirmation of what had
fallen from the noble lord, remarked that during the de-
bates which took place upon the Orders in Council, it
was expressly stated that they were issued, not merely
as measures of retaliation, but because they would have
the effect of injuring the enemy's trade ; and if they
wished for an instance of their effects, be would remind
them of the seizure of Spanish ships with rich cargoes,
which to a great extent prevented that country from
bringing her power to bear against us. If they were to
carry the doctrine of not seiziog the property of bellige-
rents in private ships to its full extent, they might at
once refrain from intercepting supplies to a besieged
town, because private individuals were as much injured
in the one case as in the other.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE could not believe that the
noble lord at the head of the Government, who had
always shown such anxiety to protect the honour and
the interests of England, could entertain the opinions
upon this subject which had been attributed to him by
the noble lord who had just spoken. Napoleon had ad-
vanced the maxim that a war should support itself, and
in pursuance of that doctrine he had always levied con-
tributions largely on the enemy. The oily way in his
(Mr. Phillineore'e) opinion that a maritime Power coul I
carry out that maxim and levy contributions, was by in-
tercepting the property of its enemy on the high sea,.
(Hear, hear.) The same authority that he had quoted
bad said that to deprive England of this power would be
to strike the heaviest blow at her prosperity. The hu-
manity lay rather in crippling the resources of the enemy
as soon as possible than in making concessions which
tended to protract the contest. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER trusted we would never give up our
maritime Heine and allow nations with which we were
at war to carry on their commerce when and how they
chose. If we were at war with Preece, was it to be said
that she shoul 1 be permitted to send whatever merchant
ships she pleased to sea! And as to hi ickade, to talk
of a blockade of all the port= of France was perfect non-
sense. It was the fear of the British navy which pre-
vented other r a,:ions from goins, to war with us, and
such a proposal as that referred to by the nebhs lord was
calculated to destroy our naval supremacy. (Hear.)
Mr. COBUEN said tke house was supposed to be dis-
cussing the income tax, and he was not anxious to pro-
long the discussion on this subject. He wished, how-
ever, to correct an erroneous impression which appeared
to prevail. The question really was not whether they
were called upon to abandon an ancient right—that was
already signed a say in the Treaty of Paris—but whe-
ther they should go a step further and exempt private
property from capture, no matter where it is found :
that was, Mr. Marcy's proposition. (Hear, hear.) When
the time arrived for discussing that question he thought
he should be able to adduce argumeuts calculated to
alter the noble lord's opinion.
Mr. NEWDEGATE was anxious to avail himself of
this opportunity to I xpress his deep regret at the Treaty
of Paris, which prevented us from exercising the power
we had always posest,ed of using privateers and letters
of marque, whicb, he contended, had always been used
in the most legitimate manner. It was a questien
of expense ; if this country wished to maintain her
naval militia, it coul 1 only be done at an altogether
disproportionate cost, unless the merchant service was
kept up as a means for muting the naval force. There
was no humanity in allowing free intercourse of trade in
times of war ; there was nothing so beneficial as to crip-
ple the resources of the enemy, for it saved blond-bed
and brought those to reason who wield he influenced by
no other means. He was very grad that the noble lord
had called a.tentiou to the suljsct, and he did trust that
it would prove true that "Governments may make what
agreements upon this sulject they choose, but our
de,cendaets on the other side of the Atlantic will never
be crippled by such fatal provisions ; those provisions
will be set aside ; there will remain only the shame of
having abandoned the greae weapon of offence, and when
the time comes England will free herself from such un-
worthy shackles."
Mr. M. MI LNES thoueht it very desirable that the
nobls lord should have an opportunity of stating what
he really sa d at Liverpool. It bad been the policy of
teose who opposed the nobly lord to represent him as the
disturber of the pence of Europe, and to wield against
him that weapon which had been used so often on the
Cent ineut against the Ministry of which the noble lard
was the chief. But the people of this country saw that
the right of England and the cause of liberty throughout
the world would be supported by all the moral means in
our power. The right hen. member for the University
was difficult to please upon the subject of Italy ; it was
he who first called attention to the state of that country,
and it was scarcely just that he thou' I turn against the
Government which hid prosecutes! the very causo which
he had proposed. He believed that it wool Ibe found
that the G ,vernmenti of France and England had acted
rightly in declaring that the conduct of the King of
Napes was such teat he deserved to he ex :lad. d from
the cemity of nations, and he believed that they had done
well in making their protest against the conduct of that
country; and that although there might be immediate I
suffiring the result would be beneficial in the end, and
great merel a lvantae would accrue.
Mr. W HITESIDE could not agree in the praise be-
stowed non the foreign polity of the noble lord. He
had passed some time in B-Igiurn last autumn, and had
heard the expression of feeling in that country upon
what had passed at the ceuvention in Paris with respect
to the frewdom of the press io Belgium. The speech of
the ?debt h in. gentleman the member for the University
had been printed and read and admired. With regard to
Neelni, if they had a right to interfere with that king-
dom because the Government was bad, what were they
to do with the Pope of Rome I The King of Naples
did not interfere with other countries, but the Pope of
Rome did. In the same way, why did they not inter-
fere with Switzerland I (Hear, hear.) He believed the
object of the noble 1 -rd was to make capital of his fo-
reign Fahey on the hustings. It they were just'fied in
interfering in the govetnniettt of a foreign country be-
cause it was had, why did they not seek to put down the
,leheeep,i
tradeblye in America What wtre they to do with
the Eeiperor of Austria and the Emperor of Russia ?
T
of interference was not • only incomprehen-
sible, but utterly impracticable. (Hear, hear.) But if
they inteeded to fight the battle of Italy, let them not
instigate men to kill the tyrant, then leave them to
die by the e
torfylbtaylyirZatn!romeauan. believed that the improvement
alkefetttshotionthe course of events, and that to
crease it, and r: things
semweodrsye thetha evilthan
e v e would
Hoena
(Hear
y) in.
Sir F.
,KELLY expressed his surprise that no mem-
ber
es t bad risen to offer explanations
:ei rof
(had fallen from the noble lord (Lord J. Russ
aovernin
great Inkfortune that the noble lord at
7.
w htjhatet
was a
he tn ttob able allerseta:nliyob
jr:eePnat°.ol(eeHin but
lord as ex
notthe head
single
ofe tlnheoinGeonyteronuing
g the
apprehension otfhothveith,wosusoef ttliip:ni2otbh les
fatal it
blow wouldpr
i!eved that bespoke the sentiments of the majority whene
Expressed
at
If the ,
he said thal,
at Liverpoolthe
vtn'aevreal ceaurpreierdieroipit:oytutnhiitsycir)fuenxtpryre.ssing
hi
noble lord did not have 40 0
views, he should feel it as bit duty to move the adjourn.
ment of the debate to give him an opportunity urcluipg
so, in order to remove the doubts gEneraly entertained,

the oepera had been produced, showed that diseweion
did not always follow the production of papers.
Lent J. RUSSELL—I do net Ise° v that this is a very
convenient course to disease the state cf foreign politics
on the second reading of the lecoine Tex Bill ; but the
house has now entered on the sohject, Frei, t'serefere, I
shal not refrain from tnakieg such observations as appear
to me fittine to the Eteit. First, with regard to the
proposal of the " ways and means" this year before the
supplies," I quite agree with several hon. members,
that it is contrary to our practice and the usual course of
our proceedings in this house. Bet I think, in the pre-
sent year, if the country had not known what the senti-
ments of Government and the house were with regard to
the income nix —if it had been left in uncertainty for
weeks whether it was to by reimposed for one or for t luoe
years, the inconvenience resuming from that course would
have been felt as greater than that from bringing forward
the Government proposal so early. I believe that there
will be another opportunity in the course of another
Parliament of discuesing the finances for three years, and
therefore that it will be quite unnecessary to follow
the hon. and learned member for Wallin!. ford in the
statements which he has made on the subject. With
respect to the other subject—of foreign pelitics—l have
a few words to address to the house on the sul j ct of
Naples. We have ha,t from the hon. and learned gentle.
man another remarkable testimony of the inconvenience
of the course which has been pursued by Government
with regard to that country. It appears to be more
and more undesirable to raise hopes among a people
who are suffering, and impatient, and who look
to foreign assistance for relief—to raise these hopes, and
not to fulfil them. I regret, therefore that those two
great ships—the Wellington and the Cressy—names
which are redolent of ancient and modern glory, should
have been sent to the Mediterranean to go to the Bay of
Naples, only in order to go back again to Gibraltar.
Buteo the proposal that we should resume our diplomatic
connection with that country I have this objection—
that the only measure which has been taken by the Go-
vernment of this country is the severing of this connec-
tion—that it was understood as merely'a protest against
the conduct of the King of Naples with regard to his
own subjects; and that curreason for resuming that con-
nection ought to he that the King of Naples has ceased
from those acts of rigour which be is in the habit of in-
flicting, and that either an amnesty or an act of clemency
on his part has showed that determination to change his
policy. But the King of Naples by no amnesty or act of
clemency has shown his desire to change his mode of go-
vernment. That act of transporting his political prison-
ers is not to be regarded as an exercise of mercy— it
shows rather a determination to continue the same po-
licy which be has been pursuing. I ghoul I therefore be
sorry to see a Mini-ter sent there by our Government.
as though we thereby meant to declare our approval of
the course which Vie King has pursued. I do not say
that we were quite right in withdrawing our Minister at
all ; but it is a very different thing now that he is with-
drawn to send him back whilst the policy that occasion-
ed his withdrawal continued unchanged at his return.
As regards the other subjects, what has happened last
year and in the present confirms me in the opinion that
o advantage will accrue to the public from 'he discussion
of matters which are the sulject of negotiation between
our Government and foreion Gevernments Lastyear much
was said with regard to the Foreign Enlistment Act, the
course pursued by our Minister in America regarding it,
and the question touching the Island of Ruatan. I took
the liberty at the time to easy that if Mr. Dallas were nest to
be sent away when Mr. Crampton received his credentials,
any expression of opinion on the part of this house upon
the subject ought for the time being to be suspended.
The effect of that has been that a treaty has been signed
which, I believe, we are about to ratify, and which, I
think, will turn out for the advantage of the two coun-
tries, and no angry feeling on either side remains. I
thought also that it was not desirable to raise a discus-
sion on the subject of the Persian war while negotiations
were going on ; and now we have seen that, withontany
interruption on our part, negotiations have proceeded,
and a treaty has been signed. We have there another
instance of the wisdom of refraining on the part of this
house from any discussion on matters which are the sub-
ject of negotiation. As to the merits of that war Ido
not subscribe implicitly to the opinions of the right hon.
gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli), and I beg likewise
not to be precluded from the assertion made on the Trea-
sury benches from hereafter stating my opinion on that
subject. In order to justify the course which you have
pursued towards Persia it is necessary not only to say
that, contrary to treaty stipulations, Herat had been at-
tacked and taken, but also that the emissaries of Herat
had given no provocation to Persia, and that ne attempt
had been made to a,sassinate envoys which had been
sent by Persia to that city, and that no means short of
hostilities, short of sending an expedition to the Persian
Gulf, could induce Persia to surrender Herat on terms
which were satisfactory. But I think there was cause
sufficient tojustify any delay in the production of the
papers. lam glad to see that in the treaty which re-
news our peaceful relations with that power there is no
such article as that which was given by an organ of the
Government—the Edinburet Review—requiring that the
Prime Minister should be dismissed. I am glad that that
Was not insisted on. There are other articles which.
while we retain the objects upon which we insisted, ought
to be satisfactory to Persia, wallowing that wed() not wish
to interfere with her Government. There is another ques-
tion that has been touched upon which is not at all in the
same category. I have said that while matters are under
negotiation it is most undesirable that this house should
interfere. But when the negotiations are such as to lead
to the carrying on of hostilities, and papers sre laid on
the table giving an account of these hostilities, it is im-
possible for the house not to signify either by its silenCe
its approval of that course, or, if it does not approve,
then by expression of opinion to disapprove of it. It is
impossible, without abandoning our duty, when papers
are laid on the table shoeing that hostilities are going
on in China, not to express our opinion—it is inevitable,
without shrinking from our duty. What was proposed
in very moderate terms by the hon. member for the
West Riding merely amounted to this—that in the opi-
nion of this house the British authorities at Canton were
not justified in entering upon hostilities. It was not
that the Government was wrong in ordering these hos-
tilities, of which they knew nothing till they had been
commenced, but that these hostilities were not justified
in the opinion of this house ; and had her Majesty's Go-
vernment expressed a different opinion themselves than
they have done, there would have been an end of it. But
it is clear, whatever our judgment might have been upon
measures involving hostilities and the lives of marl
thousands, that the expression of approval on the part
of the Government of these measures does not preclude
this house from giving an adverse opinion ; and I think
that this house was fully justified in giving that opinion.
Now, sir, the course pursued by Sir J. Bowring and the
other British authorities being approved of, and that
being the final and ultimate dechion of the Government,
when the question was asked what the intention of the
Government was en the subject, my noble friend at the
head of the Government stated, I think, that their in-
tention was not to supersede Sir J. Bowring, but cer
tainly to send out a chief authority, a commissioner
superior to Sir J. Bowring and the rest, entru-ted with
certain powers to negotiate. I consider that declara-
tion of the utmost importance. I understood him to say
that that person, being a person of character an I consi-
deration, should take measures for the protection of the
lives and property of British subjects—a step which
ought to have been taken by any Government which
possessed the confidence of her Majesty. The next pur-
pose for which it is said lie should be sent out is to ob-
tain the fulfilment of our rights under prier treaties. As
regards that object, I have only to say that in the course
of a former debate I rxereesed an opinion;hat if the Go-
vet nment thought it necessary that stipulations which
Wel been made by the Emperor of China should be fell-
ffed, they ought to have gone about that in a diploma-
tic manner, and to have opened communication, not
with the Chief Commissioner at Canton, but with the
Court at Pekin. (Hear, hear.) But the treaty impales
duties as well as rights ; and if we insist on the stipula-
tions which we have obtained being fulfilled because they
were advantageous to ue, we should be ready to perform
these obligations which we have undertaken in favour of
the people of Chir a. This appears to me nothing but
plain justice, an I I am sorry to use the word prestige
again, as it has been n ticed by my right hon. friend
(Mr. V. Smith). I will say that that prestige of our
empire is not sustained urdeoi it he by justice and truth.
(Cheers.) I was glad to hear something about the im-
provement of our cominercil relations ~ith the:, coun-
ty ; and my noble friend ltid stress upon the words—
"by negotiation." Nothing is more important or more
desirable than that, by negotiation, these commercial
relations might be improved ; and I shell hope that an
attempt wi'l be made to do sc, by a person of character,
who has gone there dispassionately, and has not mixed
in these scenes of blood, by the proposal of such wise
and moderate terms as are most likely to improve cur
commercial relations. I trust that that will be done in
association with the Government of the Emperor of
France and the Government of the United States. One
word more. If these despatches cf the 3d of January
bad received from the
ivrernment a fu,l and fair con-
sideration,
thatf in answer they tahey Lad expressed
heir belief everything
British authorities at Canton witha beenthe done
by
tinten-
tions ; but further, if instead of giving their en-
tire approval to these acts, the—
y had required the
suspension of hostilities whist a person of character was
being despatched immediately to the scene ; and if that
answer so framed had been laid before Parliament at the
commencement of the session, I acre satisfied there would
not have been much difference of opir,irn.(Cr]„;
of
" Oh, oh.") Ido hope that the result of there proceed-
ings may be that n instead of carrying on meet unprofit-
able
. and dhastrous hostel:ties with tetena_e,stlisties
which we are on the one heed putting forth our great
powers as a civilised nation, and the Chinese are retro, t-
hie to the most barbarous modes of a saseiration on the
other—that the result of these debates will lead to the
whole matter being taken up in a different tone atidenit it
by some efficient person quite new to the subjsoc and,
with such results in view, I see no reason to regret that
these debates have taken place, and that the motion of
the hoc, gentleman the member for the West Riding
(Mr. Cobden) has been carried. No e 7, Fir, much foreign
policy has been introduced into the consideration of tee
subject before us, and there is another point upon which
I am arx7eus to say a few words, and which, although
connected with our home affairs, is one of the greatest
consequence as affecting our foreign relations. The house
is well aware that the naval superiority of this country
has been in a great degree based upon certain powers
which we have always exercised, and which, I believe,
are in conformity with the law of nations-_I allude to
those powers which we exercised during the tremendous
contest with the Emperor of the French, and which,
though severe upon neutrals, were absolutely destructive
to the commerce of belligerents. During the late war, in
which we were in alliance with France, we were na-

Upon the subject of the incomo tax, he was not inclined
to oppose the second reading of the bill, becluse, unless
they agreed to some measure in relation to the income
tax. the war tax of 161. in the pourid would be ma'ai-
tained. No one was less disposed than himself to impair
the resources of the Government, or to Lave it without
ample support in providing for the ex;o•encies of the
State ; but before the bill shall have passed,' he should
take the sense of the house upon the question whether or
not they were to understand that the arrangement made
between the Government and the country by the act of
1863 was to be deemed a permanent arrangement and
contract. It was the universal belief of the members of
that house that the arrangement of 1853 was a binding
and final arrangement. He did not believe that the exi•
gencies of the State were such as imperatively to demand
the ex'ra 2d., and he should certainly take the sense of
the house upon the question.
_ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, with regard to the convention of Faris, communi-
cations had been made to the United States asking them
to accede to the proposals which were there made. The
answer made to odr Government was that, provided cer-
tain ul erior changes were made, the United States of
America would be prepared to become a party to the
arrangement. These ulterior changes consisted in the ex-
emption from capture of the goods of an enemy carried
in an enemy's merchant vessel. The matter was very se-
rious, and no answer had yet been given to the proposal
by the Government, which was fully acquai,.ted with its
importance, and would not come to a decision before full
consideration was given to it. With regard to the In-
come Tsx Act of 1853, he was not quite sure what there
was in the namure of a compact which that act was sup-
posed to have established with respect to the income tax.
The 6r-t departure from that act took place in 1854,
when the tax of 7d. in the pound was doubled, and that
propositdin was made by the right hon. gentleman the
member for Oxford University himself. The act in force
this year would have enabled the Government to levy an
income-tax of 16d. in the pound. That act, according to
the hon. and learned gentleman (Sir F. K•lly) also vio-
lated the supposed compact of 1853 ; but he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) could not see the discrepancy
between the two acs.

Sir F. KELLY explained that he did not consider there
had Len any departure from the compact that an
increased income tax should be raised for the purposes of
war, but that should not be so when the war was over.
Lord 11. VANE should be sorry to inflict a tax heavier
than was intended upon the more humble classes. He
trusted that upon a future ocoaaion means would be
found so far to reduce the expenditure of the c )untry
that at the expiration of the ensuing year they should be
enatil;cl to dispense with the augiented impost alto-
gether.

Tue bill was then read a second time.
SUPPLY.

The house then went into committee of supply.
Mr. GLADSTONE (who had not observed the motion
for the house going into committee) rose, after the
Speaker had left the chair, and said he wisbel to know
if it was not then competent to him to make the state-
ment of which he had given notice ? (The notice which
the right hon. gentleman had on the paper was—" On
the motion for Mr. Speaker leaving the chair to enable
the house to go into committee of supply, that in order
to secure to the country that relief from taxation which
it justly expects, it is necessary, in the judgment of this
house, to revise and further reduce the expenditure of
the State.")

The CHAIRMAN said the Speaker having left the
chair the right hon. gentleman woald be out of order in
bringing on his motion then.

RUSSELL wished to bear his testimony that
it was not the fault of the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for Oxford University that he did not attend at the
moment whe❑ the Speaker was leaving the chair; be-
cause he (Lord J. Russell) was speaking to him at the
time, having gone to ask him whether he intended to
bring forward his motion that night. (A laugh.) Of
course the First Lord of the Admiralty would take his
own course on the matter, but probably through courtesy
be would allow his right hon. friend to make his state-
ment.

Sir C. WOOD said he was very sorry it would not be in
his power to ccomplj with the suggestion of the noble
lord. He did not intend to delay the house at any length,
for he believed it was the wish of the house that the votes
he was about to propose shoul f be taken. What he pro-
posed to do was to take one-third of the whole of each
♦ote. That would cover sufficient time to allow them
them to carry on the public service, and afterwards,
when the new Parliament met, full time to discuss at
length all the votes that would have to be taken. He
believed it would best meet the wishes and convenience
of the house to take a vote upon each estimate to carry
en the public service for a couple of months. There was
only one statement he should like to make, because he
thought it only fair to give the house every information
on the subject, and that was as to the reduction of the
number of seamen. He had not been able to reduce the
number of men to the extent he had wished, and that
was mainly owing to a cause that he thought the house
would not disapprove of, namely, the indisposition of the
men to leave toe service. (Hear, hear.) A large por-
tion cf the navy now consisted of continuous service men.
It was only the other day that a ship was paid off, and
of the continuous service men not one left the service.
Such also was the case with the old men-of-war's men,
and he hoped the house wool,' not turn them adrift.
(Hear, hear.) What he proposed to do was to take the
number of men for four months, acd take a vote on
account of each head of estimate of one-third upon the
whale sum.

The first vote was that 53,700 men and boys be em-
ployed in the service of her Majesty's navy.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS wished to call the attention of
the committee to two or three points connected with
these estimates, with a view of having them explained
by the right hoe. baronet. He found that is the expen-
diture of last year there had been several deviations from
the votes of the, house—those on some items being
greatly extended, on others curtailed. Several items,
too, were jumbled up in one vote, so that it was impos-
sible to know the sum required to be spent on any one
of them in particular. He considered that it would be
better to refer the estimates to a select committee, as it
was only by such means they would be able to unravel the
intricacies with which they abounded. It did not come with-
in the province of the auditor to correct over expenditure,
and thus Government was enabled to apply the pub-
lic money without the sanction of Parliament. In one
return the auditor stated that on each one of 19 ileitis
there had been more expended than had been voted, and
that on five others the expenditure had been less than
that authorised by Parliament, the balance against the
nation amounting to 323,0001. They were now called
on to vote 33,000 seamen and 15,000 marines, while
during the war they voted 60,000 seamen and 16,000
marines. In 1841, too, the year of peace in which they
had voted the greatest number of men, the stamen num-
bered 32,500, and the marines 10,500. From a compa-
rison of these figures he was led to think it very extra-
ordinary that in proportion to the number of seamen
they should want so many marines. Tney had now 32
generals of marines, whereas formerly they used to have
only two, one of whom was also an admiral and the
other a military officer, and he had never yet beard of a
general of marines taking the command of a division. It
was now proposed to vote 1,395,0001. upon naval stores,
and 578 000/ upon new works in the dockyards.
During the la•t four years they had expended on stores
no less a sum than 9,800,0001., and upon new works
1,395,0001, so that the amount now proposed ap-
peared t. him erravagant. They had, since the
French war, expended 12,000,0001., upon their dock-
yards, whieh were the❑ capable of accommodating
about 10,000 ships in commission. The expenditure
upon labourers was very disproportionate to that outlay.
Another point was, that they had now 17 admirals in
commission, three or four of whom were commissioners
in the dockyards, and 270 idle. The total Lumber of
ships in commission was 297, so that they had, within
10, an admiral for every ship.

Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY was glad the right hon gen-
tleman proposed to tike a vote for the excess of expendi-
ture last year, which amounted to 211,000/. They had,
by xoendiog on certain items less than had been voted,
save) a sum of 620,0001., all of which they otherwise
expended without the authority of Parliament ; so that
it was quite clear, if such a course were to be allowed to
go on, the consideraLion of the estimates in that house
would become a mere idle proceeding. He hoped the
right ban, gentleman would devise some plan by which
the audit might be placed upon a satisfactory footing,
and become really effective and useful.

S,r C. NAPIER, said he did not think the estimate of
53,700 men a very extaavagant one, on the eve of a war
with China. On the contrary, he should like to see the
vote a lit le larger. He saw that 5,700 of there men
were voted for the coat guard service, who could not be
emplayed afl at. That loft them 45,000 men, viz., 33,000
seamen, and 15,000 marines. He might further observe
that there was now no reserve atall, and therefore he
cenclud,d that these 5,700 men were intended to form a
reserve. In 1853 there were 2,C00 boys voted, but now
men and boys were mixed up together, and he wished to
ask whether thera was now an additional number of boys?
It had been feund that thesa boys, when they bad grown
up, made cxc.llent seamen. He would also ask the First
Len] of the Admiralty how many of these 33,000 seamen
were continuous service men, and how many of them were
" novice.,?" Some remarks had fallen from the hon. mem-
ber for Lambeth relative to the large vote of 15,000 men
for the marines ; but he (Sir C. Napier) thought the Go-
vernment had very wisely augmented the number of
marines. He was further very happy to see that the
Government had placed a greater number of marines in
the seaport towns. He thought the seaport towns should
be garrisoned entirely by marines, and then, in the event
of war taking !lace, the marines could be marched at
once on board the fleet, and their places be supplied by
militiamen, The hon. member far Lambeth had also
complained that there were so many generals of marines
unemployed. He (Sir C. Napier) regretted that it was
not the custom to employ generals of marines ; and he
thought it would be very proper to give them c mu-I:lands
in the garrison seaport towns. There was another re-
mark he wished to make. The continuous service men
were entered for ten years, and he understood that these
men were not always so fit as they ought to be—they
were not always of a very good class. He would sug-
gest that before they were entered for that period they
should be submitted to a probation of one year, in order
to ascertain whether they were likely to be of service.
Ile also begged to draw the attention of the First Lord
of the Admiralty to the circumstance that when an
ablebodied seaman became a petty officer, he lost the
additional pay which he bad been previously receiv-
ing, which he thought was a case of hardship. He
(Sir Charles Napier) would again draw the attention
of the Government and the house to the fact that
we were now in the 40th year of peace (with the ex-
ception of the Russian war), and had as yet no regular
system of manning the navy. Some time ago a rule was
established that men should be called out ljy proolama-
tion, and then receive a bounty_ a system which entailed
great expense and inconvenience on the country ; but
whether that rule were altered or not he (Sir 0, Napier)

THE @UN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 10, 1

was not aware. We ought however, to begin this system
in a time of peace. When we fund nations like Russia,
Fraece, and Holland, each with a regular system of
maiming her navy, it was a disgrace and a danger to this
country to be without such a system. If this c,urse were
not alr.cred, we must some day or other "come to grief."
Years ago the Channel was some protection to us, brie
now that it was completely bridged over by steam, the
state of insecurity the country was in was warming and
unworthy of its greatness. There were other observations
which he (Sir C. Napier) had intended to make with re-
ference to some remarks which had been made upon him
elsewhere by an hon. member of the house, but consider-
ing the near approach of the dissolution of Parliament,
he shoal] omit for the present all reference to the subject
and permit the hon. member to take his vagaries down
with him to his constituents. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY said that, under the circumstances,
he had no of jection to the vote. But he could not help
remarking upon the large sums of money that were
spent in our dockyards. Of this he had an amusing in-
stance in his own experience. Going into one of the
royal dockyards where he was not known, he found
some workmen polling down a large pile ni buildings.
He asked why they were being pulled down ; and one
of the workmen told him he knew no reason for the
change, except that the last "lord" liked the Elizabe-
than, and the new "lord" the Corinthian style of archi-
tecture. They had heard before of iron lords of the Ad-
miralty, and of wooden lords—(a laugh)—and that the
wooden lords had st ld the iron ships at a great loss to
the country. Ile hoped in another Parliament to find the
whole question referred to a select committee. He had
nothing to say against the present Lords of the Admi-
ralty. Indeed, he believed the present First Lord to
have discharged the duties of his office with great effi-
ciency and ability. The hon. and gallant member (Sir
C. Napier) had spoken of the manning of the navy as
being very deficient ; but he (Mr. Lindsay) could not
help thinking that any other system of manning the
navy than a voluntary one must necessarily be unsuccea-
ful, considering the feeling of the country on the subject.
Sir G. TYLER said he regretted to see that it was in-
tended to diminish the coast guard service. The militia
of England was a nucleus for filling up the army ; why
not have a naval militia to answer the same purpose with
respect to the navy I Instead of making reductions in
this branch of the service, it would be better to adopt
some other course which would have the effect of de-
creasing expenditure. The system of making over the
coast-guard volunteers to the Admiralty, ho thought a
great improvement. With regard fo the employment of
boys, he felt disposed' to increase their number to any ex-
tent. He approved of the items in other respects, but he
certainly regretted the reduction of 6,0001. in that part
of the service, which was one of the greatest importance
to the country—he spoke of the coast-guard service.
Sir C. WOOD said, instead of diminishing the effi-
ciency of the coast-guard service, the system adopted by
the Government would materially increase it ; the ob•
ject being always to have a quantity of men in reserve
for the navy, so that the Government might man the fleet
at the shortest notice, and make it thoroughly efficient.
In answer to the hon. member for Tynemouth (Mr.
Lindsay) he had to state that the Government was cre-
ating a steam navy, and in a short time this country
would be in a position, with regard to her steam navy,
which would be equal in strength to the steam navy of
other nations ; but to keep a steam navy in a state of
efficiency they must have more dock room for the vessels.
He would add that with a view of making the coast-
guard service perfectly useful orders had been issued
for drilling the men, and this would be commenced next
month by Captain Fraser, who bad expressed the
greatest confidence in being able to bring them into the
highest state of efficiency.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY inquired what was the mode
of audit in this department. He hoped the right hon.
baronet would give some explanation on the subject, so
that the house might have an assurance tbat the ac-
counts were duly verified.

Sir C. WOOD said it was impossible for him to
give an answer to the hon. baronet's* question off-hand,
but promised to inquire.
Mr. COWELL agreed as to the necessity of a much
more stringent audit of the estimates than that which
had been heretofore presented to the house. He confessed
that he always felt alarmed ashen called upon to vote a
million per minute of the public money without knowing
whether the estimates had ever been subjected to the
slightest revision.
Sir G. PECHELL called attention to the non-effi-
ciency of the blockading squadron off the coast of Cuba,
and read some newspaper extracts to show that the fleet
was employed on every description of service except that
of suppressing the slave trade.

Mr. BO WY ER agreed with the hon. member for
Eversham when he advocated an improved system of
audit. The powers of the present audit body were not
sufficient, and he thought that additional powers should
be granted which would make the audit real and not no-
minal. He begged to refer to the Royal Frederick,
a ship which had been brought under his notice by the
Commercial Association of Liverpool. That vessel had
been unemployed for 20 years, and yet he was informed
she was about to be lengthened into a 120-gun steam-
ship. He wished to know what was the first cost of this
ship, and also whether it was true that, when the keel
was laid down, some petty officers were appointed who
had been receiving pay ever since 1

Admiral VVALCbiT would not propose any obstacle
to the recommendation of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty. He thought, in order to preserve the efficiency of
the navy, that a large number of ships should be con-
stantly kept in commission—that opportunities of pro-
motion should be given to meritorious officers, and that
good faith should always be kept with, and good treat-
ment always given to, the seaurn. He thought also
that there ought to be a general uniform for the men
throughout the service, and he highly approved of train-
ing-ships for cadets.

Adniiral BERKELEY said that there was already a
general uniform throughout the service for the men, and
that naval cadets would be trained in such ships as the
Industrious before joining their ships. With respect to
manning the navy, had the house gone into the navy
estimates, and any attempt had been made to reduce
the number of men, he was prepared to stateto thecom-
mittee that it would be thegreatest blow that could pos-
sibly be given to tae British navy to reduce the men. It
was, and always would be in consequence of recent
,
o tchangesher nation in
language, a difficult thing to
man the navy properly. With reference to the naval
t speaking
maritime
ourla wand now that we bad an-
other
coast volunteers he was happy to be able to inform the
house that he had no doubt, in the event of another war,
there would be a largo body of men available from that;
body.
Mr. W. MARTIN thought that the dookyafd la-
bourers were not at all too highly paid.
Mr. BENTINCK wished to know whether there was
any intention tl make an alteration in the method of
coaling ships in Plymouth Sound?
Capt. DUNCOMBE thought that there was a great
deal of coal used when it was not required by the exigen-
cies of the service, and when sailing would do just as
well as steaming.
S‘r G. PECHELL also thought that the expenditure
for coal was excessive.

80,0001., on account, fre4.!ht.
400,0001., on ricclunt, -packet service.
Toe CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the
house resumed.

Sir C. WOOD said he entirelyagreod in the necessity
of adopting strict rules with regard to the use of coal on
board ships, for it entailed very serious expense, and
what was still worse, was the means of deteriorating the
skill of officers. The sul;ject had attracted the attention
of the Beard of Admiralty, and stringent orders had
been issued to all commanders-in-claief on foreign stations
directing theta to enforce upon the officers under their
command not to use coal except in cases of emergency.
The subject of coaling vessels in Plymouth Harbour had
also occupied the attention of the Government, and be
would have been glad to have inserted a vote in the esti-
mates for carrying out fresh measure, upon so important
a matter, but the Government were bound to bring
their expenditure within reasonable limits. As to the
wages of men in Chatham Dockyard, when the war
began the shipwrights were put upon job and, tank
work instead of being paid by the day. That led to
a very considerable increase of expense, and in order
to induce the labourers to keep pace with these
artificers they received what was called "exertion
money." Oa the Ist of March the shipwrights were
again placed upon day pay, and the exertion money of
the labourers was accordingly struck off. Unless mea-
sures of this kind were taken it would be utterly impos-
sible for the Government to reduce their expenditure as
they were called upon to do by the house. He could not
tell the hon. member for Dundalk (Mr. Bowyer) when
the vessel he alluded to was laid down, but. there were
cases in which lsrge sailing vessels were kept o❑ the
stocks for a considerable time while the bulling of
steamers, which were more wanted, was being proceeded
with. The tight hon. baronet concluded by justifying
the meamres he had taken with respect to the construc-
tion of gunboats.
After a few words from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, in
reply,

TRAND T FIE AT RE.—Manager, Mc. T.
Payne.--This Evening will be performed
THE LAMPLIGHTER.
Affer which, THE DEATH OF EVA, in. which the
Howard Family will appear.
Followed by THE BLUE JACKETS.
To conclude with MAID OR WIFE.
Commence at Seven. Stalls, 3s. ; Boxes, 2s. ; Pit, 13. ;
Gallery, 6d.

M. COWAN asked if a Mr. White, of Cowes, had
been appointed consulting engineer to the Admiralty on
" slips ?" He had a copy of a lettt,r from a person of
that name to a gentleman at Leith, stating that he had
received such an appointment.
Sir C. WOOD knew of no person who had been ap-
pointed consulting engineer of slips, but believed that a
Mr. White, of Cowes, had been employed to coustrnct
some for the use of the navy. With regard to the sup-
pres:don of the slave trade, the right hon. baronet said
gun-boats were not employed on the coast of Cuba, in
consequence of their not being well adapted for that ser-
vice. If gun-boats were sent to Cuba it would be neces-
sary to have a coed depot there, as they were unable to
carry a sufficient quantity of coals on board, and the Go-
vernment had, therefore, thought it better to strengthen
the bl )cltade on the coast of Africa.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS,
Admiral WALCOTT said the admirals an the retired
list held their present positions as a reward for meritori-
ous conduct in the discharge of their duties. He (the
gallant admiral) was 00 years of age, and there were
only 10 men on the list of 225 admirals who were
younger than himself.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 800,0001. for the wages of seamen and
marines,
The following votes were agreed to :-
300,0001., on account, victuals.
50,0001., on account, Admiralty-office.
80,0001., on account, coast guard service,
30,0001., on account, scientific depar'„,nenta..
60,0001., on account, naval establ'Ahment's at home.
10,0001.. on account, naval esi_ablishmer,t3 abroad.
300,0001., on account, Rages to artificers, &c., at
home.
20,0001., on Pl/4c:count, wages to artificers, &ci., abroad.
500,0001., on account, naval stores.
200,0001., on account, new works and repairs,
20,0001., on account, medicines and medical stores,
30,0001., on account, miscellaneous stores.
250,0001. on account, half-pay.
200,0001., on account, military penskms.
60,0001., on account, civil pensions.

OY AL OLYMPIC THEATRE.
Lessee, Mr. Alfred Wigan.
This Evening, the new drama, by Tom Taylor, Esq.,
called A SHEEP IN WOLF'S CLOTHING,
A CONJUGAL LESSON. Lullaby, Mr. F. Robson.
Followed by the new farce, by Bayle Bernard, Esq.,
called A SPLENDID INVESTMENT.
Commence at half-past Seven.

STLEY'S ROYAL AMP HITHEATRE.
Lessee and Manager, Mr. W. Cooke.
This Evening, with its manifold romantic • equestrian
effects, invented 5y Mr. Wm. Cooke, the operatic drama of
ROB ROY, with the original music, the Last week of its
performance. Rob aoy, Mr. James Holloway.
After which, the Equestrian EVOLUTIONS in the
ARENA.

To conclude with the equestrian harlequinacle called PAUL
PRY ON HORSEBACK.
Commeice at seven o'clock. Dress Boxes, 4s. ; Upper
aoses, 3s. ; Private Boxes, from 1/., no charge for booking ;
Pit, 2s. ; Gallery, Is. ; Upper Gallery, 6d.

'-ox office open from Eleven till Four. Stage Manager,
Mr, W. West. Equestrian Director, Mr. W. Cooke, jun.

CANTERI3URY HALL. Westminster-road.—
OPEN EVERY EVENING.—The follow-
ing company of Vocalists are engaged for the performance of
elections from all the popular Operas, Madrigals, Choruses,
Glees, Duets, &c., viz.: Miss E. Pearce, Mrs. J. Caulfield,
Miss Brunell, Miss Summers, and Madame Marietta; Mr. J.
Caulfield, Herr F. Jonghmaus, R. Grover, T. Farrant, S.
Jones, J. Barker, W. Melling, P. Corn. Senor Antonio M.
de Sella, and E. L. Hime ; °Masters Austin, Bennett, and
Corti; Messrs. Sstia Collins, E. Mackney, and C. J. Wilkins.
Pianoforte, Mr. Cecil Hicks; harmonium, J. Caulfield, jun.;
Erector, Mr. J. Caulfield. Commence at Seven o'clock pre-
cisely. Suppers, ere., until twelve o'clock.

;\ffiti iVATEII AT LONDON BRIDGE.

DRS DAT—Morn. 6 min. aft. 2—Fver.ing 21 mia. aft. 2
1,,1-•irlEtUow-=Morn 39 min. aft. 2—Evening 51 miv.sft. 2

TTE WEATHEI37-SUN OFFICE, MARCH 10.
THERMOMETER, IN THE SHADE.
46 -highest singe neon yesterday.
36 -lowest this morning anti during the night.
40 this day at noon.
BAROICLTICP, 30 01.
WIND, North-easterly.- -Fine, with sharp frog and
hazy weather.

rtx
),
- ~lto,
‘e4se c.7%'• "4'4

Viscount as THE " British Minister." It has
enabled him t lead off with the strongest suit in his
hand—in the great game of the General Eiec Lions—
and to lead off that suit, moreover, pointedly at
the trump-card 1 The Chinese Question, upon
which his Cabioct was placed in a minority of
sixteen, -has—in other words—enabled Lord PAL-
MERSTON to go to the csountry, upon the very best
policy upon which by possibility he could at any
time have gone to the country, namely, upon the
matter of Lis Foreign Policy. That Foreign
Policy which is the very Isasis of his reputation
as a statesman. That Foreign Policy in regard
to which he stands before England in his most
patriotic character, and before the world at large
in a light the most conspicuous, defined, and
chivalric I

Covered with the prestige of his Foreign Policy,
Lord PALMERSTON is du], as it were, in a panoply
of steel, impenetrabll to the most deadly blows of
his antagonist,. Armed thus cap-a-pie, accord-
ing to t'Le nolile image of the Poet of "King
Arthur"—save where his brave eyes look out un-
shadowed upon the contest he ever disdains not to
regard thus undauntedly as it were face to face—
He of whom our English Sir WALTER has sung—

"Ile—rides to war, no visor to his helm!"

It is for inasmuch as the political opponents of
Lord PALMERSTON have themselves in this man-
ner thus perversely afforded him the precise op-
portunity ho himself might most eagerly and most
reasonably have desiderated, that we conceive
they have acted most inconsiderately in regard to
their own chances of success among the consti-
tuencies. Had they tempted the trial of strength
vrith the PALMEnorozi- Administration upon auy
other matter than the very one they have thus
most mistakenly selected, they had acted surely
more wisely in their generation !

Powerful, as we have said, in the prestige of
his Foreign Policy, the Noble Viscount is any-
thing but powerful, for example, in the matter of
his Home Policy—in regard, for instance, to his
recently avowed opinions upon the great question
of Parliamentary Reform. Opinions, by the way,
which the Noble Lord must simply alter or modi-
fy forthwith—according to the, good-humoured
and point-blank recommendation addressed to
him on Thursday evening in the House of Com-
mons by gallant Toss DUNCOMBE, M.P. for Fins-
bury--Thokres SLIEGSBY DEINCOMBE, the in-
domitable, indefatigable, and thoroughly consis-
tent champion of all that is best and truest in
Radicalism I THOMAS DIINCOMBE, who, now for
very nearly thirty-three years, has advocated the
same liberal principles in the House of Commons,
first of all, from 1824, as Member for Hertford,
and secondly, ever since 1834 as the chosen re-
presentative of the most ultra-liberal of all our
fifteen great metropolit In constituencies ! Yes—
there is no mistake about it—as the Member for
Finsbury said on Thursday evening, the Noble
Viscount must change his views about Reform
generally, and Parliamentary Reform particularly.
In which contingency we venture to assert that
his supporters would come in not only at the
head of the poll, but as the saying is, " on the
heads of the people," not merely with the hands
and votes, but with the hearts and Godspee4 of
the vast majority of the Constituencies.
Even as matters stand at the present moment
with the Premier's late bungling avowal of a
total want of sympathy with the political hobby of
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for East Surrey,
still fresh in the public recollection—how earnest
and wide spread, in spite of this, is the enthu-
siasm manifested throughout the country at the
present moment, in favour of the cause repre-
sented by the Noble Viscount's Government !
What might it not be otherwise—supposing the
Prime Minister, actuated by a wiser inspiration,
to have gene reu,ly sustained, instead of perveraly
opposing, Mr. LOCKB KING'S motion I In that
contingency, as we have said, his supporters
would infallibly, in a measure, be returned upon
the shoulders of the electors into the new Parlia-
ment. Even with that recent speech and that
recent vote of his, in the popular remem-
brances—see the wide-spread and deep-rooted
enthusiasm in favour of the " British Minis-
ter," manifested more particularly by the more
liberal among the most liberal of the
constituencies ! An enthusiasm so remarkable
that the Noble Viscount's name has been promi-
nently brought forward as that of a probable
candidate for the suffrages of the two most re-
markable constituencies in the three kingdoms ;
and that, moreover, in time two instances, as
powerfully, if not overwhelmingly, opposed to
two of the most distinguished leaders in the
motley ranks of that marvellous " Oxford Mix-
ture"—the too-successful Opposition I The West
Riding and the City of London bidding against
each other for the Prime Minister as the favourite
among the suggested candidates ! Mr. COBDEN
being coolly recommended to console himself
by winning the "most sweet ♦oices" either of
Boston or StockpOrt ! While Lord 'Toms is
virtually sent to Coventry, by having his name
just for all the world as coolly recommended to
the suffrages of either Stroud or Tavistock

Reverting to the reflection already forcibly im-
pressed upon us by the decided anti-climax of the
majority of " Sixteen"—may we not say of the
Opposition that, there again, the old SiIikKSPERIAN
Truism has been conspicuously illustrated, the
old truism about " vaultiog ambition" overleaping
itself, and thus (of course) turning an overlooked-
for summersault r How completely it has done this
to iti chagrin and detriment is obvious at a glance
from the mere effect of the late anti-Ministerial
majority—the announcement of the proximate
dissolution of the present Parliament ! Cor-
roborated as it has been immediately after-
wards by the simple and almost instantaneous
effect of that announcement—the general enthu-
siasm manifested throughout the country in favour
of the present Government ! Not the least remark-
able evidence of which enthusiasm we take to be
the cordial vote of confidence in Ministers,
proposed yesterday in the Court of Common
Council, and forthwith carried by acclamation !
All, therefore, that is now left for the Opposition
to do now—discomfited as they actually are by
their own victory—is, to console themselves for
the time being with the miserable and inadequate
solace of the Epicurean :—Parpe diem quam
miriirne credula postern !

The discussion last night, nominally on the
second reading of the Income Tax Bill, was vir-
tually. "de omnibus rebus, et quibusdam alius."
Honourable Gentlemen availed themselves of, the
cheapest form of advertising electioneering ad-
dresses, and putting forward what will manifestly
be the hustings cry of the Coalition, viz.,
" the turbulent and aggressive" Foreign Policy
of the Government. Indeed they might have
paraphrased the boast of poor DIDO'S beguiler,
and inquired " what part of the earth was not
full of their labours ?" From China to America,
from Persia to Naples—every possible question
was debated, save the point really before the
House, to which the allusions were few and
brief.

The matter before the House was very simple.
By what has been designated by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer a "mere accident"