The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-09 00:00:00

CHURCH RATES BILL,

Lord CASTLEROSSE seconded the amendment. He
contended that the present bill was the worst that had yet
been brought before the house, and combined all the defects
of the previous measures that had bee n introduced on the
subject. The Dissenters paid £300,000 annually to the
State Church ; and at the same time contributed a sum ex-
ceeding £1,000,000 to their own ministers. He thought,
therefore, any measure like the present would inflict on that
body It great injustice, and that it could not fail to excite
great dissatisfaction.
Mr. SOTHERON-ESTCOURT supported the bill. He
said it contained two most important objects, namely, the
provision for commutation and personal exemption. (Hear,
hear.) They should recollect that they were dealing with
a custom that had been in existence for 1,400 years, and
they should not act in a manner that was at variance with
customs of such long standing. They were all aware that
when a church-rate was proposed it was the signal for
agitation, and the parish church became the arena of strife,
a state oithings which he was satisfied well-conducted Dis •
Renters as well as Churchmen-would desire to see abolished.
Ile suggested that the churchwardens should post on the
church door a statement of the repairs requisite for the
building, as well as an estimate of the expense, and then
that any person having a conscientious objection to paying
the rate should signify the same before the next vestry, and
be exempted from the impost. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY opposed the bill. He proposed that the
statute of limitations should be made applicable to those
rates, and when they had been discontinued in a parish for
such a term of years as would indicate this feeling,
they should then be finally discontinued. He was
not aware that any petitions were presented in favour
of this bill, though he knew that there were several
against its provisions. He considered the scheme
of the right hon. gentleman totally inapplicable to parishes
Where the landlord had taken on himself the payment of
those rates. In regard to the proposal to transfer the rate
from the occupier to the owner he did not think it would
work well, and that portion of the measure he therefore
objected to. In regard to those who had conscientious ob-
jections to the payment of these rates he thought something
ought to be done. His principal objection to the bill was
that it left untouched parishes which, in his opinion, should
have been included, and he thought the only effectual
Means of settling the question and terminating the unplea-
sant feelings that existed on the subject was to abolish the
impost altogether, and he had little doubt that the Church
would not be placed in a worse position than it was at
Present. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that the speech of the right
hon. gentleman (Sir G. Grey) forced on him the painful
conviction that the spirit of party was paramount in that
house to the spirit of peace. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and
hear, hear.) He trusted he would be allowed to express
the conscientious convictions of his mind, and would repeat
*what he had said. He accused the right hon. gentleman
of acting with the greatest inconsistency in opposing the
second reading, and referred to the part he had
taken on former occasions' when the subject was
before the house. He (Sir George Grey) should
have reserved his opposition until the bill got into com-
mittee, and he had even admitted that he approved of some ,
portions of the bill. Now, there were only two principles
involved in the bill, the one providing for a prospective
commutation of rates, and what was conceived in a most
friendly spirit, the exemption of Dissenters. (Hear.) He
certainly approved of the amendments in the bill which
had been suggested, and that persons residing in one dis-
trict should not be charged for the maintenance of a church
in another ; and, as far as he was concerned, he would con-
sent to an alteration to that effect. He referred to the
circular of the " Society for the Liberation of the Church
from State Patronage and Control," a copy of which he had
received. That document stated that the question of
church-rates involved injustice, an assertion which could
not be logically maintained. The church-rate was one of
the most ancient imposts in this country, and had been
levied for the most sacred object to which any impost could
be appropriated. (Hear, hear.) Every one who had pro-
perty in this country hold it subject to this impost, and
could not justly complain of being called on to pay it. He
agreed in what had been said by one speaker as to
What the country owed the Dissenters, and he had
not been one of those who ever spoke disrespect..
fully of that body. But, in settling this question,
he should wish to know, if they abolished the
Church-rates, from what other source they could
Maintain their churches, and he confessed he could not see
any such. The bill was conceived in a conciliatory spirit,
and he trusted it would not be met in a spirit of faction.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY explained that he voted for the second
reading of the bill brought in on this subject
on the distinct understanding that it should embody
in committee the amendments which he proposed. The
present bill could not embody such alterations, and on that
ground he opposed its second reading.
Sir R. BETIIELL said he did not know what hon.
gentlemen on the opposite side of the house understood
by conciliation, but he certainly did not think
the speech of the right honourable baronet (Sir
J. Pakington) was of a very conciliatory character.
That right hon. gentleman was ignorant of the first element
requisite to understand the subject. (Laughter.) He (Sir J.
Pakington) had said that this was an impost on land, but
that was not, the case, for it was levied on the occupier.
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") The objec-
tion of the Dissenters to church rates was founded
en the fact that they considered that impost as a remnant
of that ancient spirit of intolerance which had endeavoured
to make all confirm to one set of doctrines and
to one formula of worship. (Hear, hear.) So long
as this impost continued the Dissenters of this country
would not consider that they enjoyed entire religious free-
dom. He concluded 1 y denouncing strongly the measure as
being unjust, oppressive, and calculated to excite the
greatest hostility amongst the Dissenting body. (Hear.)
Mr. DRUMMOND opposed the bill, and objected to all
abolition, tampering with, or modification of, the impost.
He considered that the Dissenters had no right to complain
of these rates, and there was no rate in the country to which
the party who paid it could object. The attempt to abolish
church rates was an effort made by a great body in this
country to do do away with the Established Church
altogether.
Mr. BALL supportenhe second reading.
Mr. LOWE said the present law with respect to church
rates was both injurious to Dissenters and prejudicial to
Churchmen. He, however, objected to the bill, because he

believed it would rather tend to increase the strife occa-
sioned by the payment of church rates than to allay any ill
feeling.
Mr. WALPOLE said tile principles of his bill had been
very freely stated. Of the two principles contained in the
measure, namely, voluntary commutation and exemption
on account of conscientious reasons, he did not think the
right honourable baronet (or, some of the other
gentlemen who had spoken against the bill)
would object to either proposition, and yet dry were
going to oppcse the bill. The only real objection he had
heard to the bill was that made by the hon. gentleman the
member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe), viz., that the bill
would not allay strife ; but the object of this measure
was to remove a pressure, which was surely not a principle
that could give rise to strife. (Hear, hear.) He had been
told that in excepting Dissenters from church rates, he
was giving up the principle of an Established Church,
ut his proposbition was to remove a burden which was
imposed in consideration of a benefit which was now
no longer received, all people not being now of the
same opinion about religious matters. He did not doubt
thelvoluntary principle, but he was not prepared to give up
endowments, while the Church could havethe benefit both of
endowments and voluntary aid. There were parts of the
country where the voluntary principle could not reach,
and if they gave up what their ancestors provided, they
could not maintain the fabric of the church. He did not de-
spare of the fate of his measure, but in the event
of failure, however much he might regret it, as he had
proposed this bill to put an end to the agitation. If the
01 was rejected, he should be consoled by the thought
that he had only failed where persons of more
talent than he possessed had met with the same fate, but he
hoped the bill would be read a second time, so that in com-
mittee it could be so amended as to meet the views of all
parties.
Mr. STANHOPE addressei the house amidst loud cries
of " Divide, divide." At the conclusion of the hon. gen-
tlemen's remarks, none of which could be heard,
The house divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading l7l
Against it
Majority, against the Uoverninent --S3
The result was received with loud cheers.
CHURCH RATES ABOLITION BILL.

Sir JOHN TRELAWNY postponed proceeding with
his bill until to-morrow evening.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at six o'clock.

THE GOVERNMENT REFORM BILL.

PUBLIC MEETING THIS DAY.

A public meeting of the inhabitants of West-
minster vas held this day at St, Martin's-hall,
Long-acre, for the purpose of adopting such mea-
sures as might be deemed expedient respecting the
Reform Bill proposed by the Government

The hall was about half filled at the commence
ment of the proceedings.

At one o'clock the chair was taken by T. Prout,
Esq. Amongst those present we observed Sir De
Lacy Evans, M.P. ; Sir John Shelley, MY. ; D.
Nicoll, Esq., M.P., &c.

Letters of apology were received from Sir B.
Hall, Mr. Wyld, Mr. Byng, and several other
members of Parliament, who expressed their in-
ability to attend, in consequence of the church rate
bill being under discussion in the House of Com-
mons. •

The CHAIRMAN, in opening the proceedings, said
he trusted the meeting would support him in the
performance of his duty. He thought the bill
brought forward by the Government on the subject
of reform was a hoax attempted to be palmed upon
the people, which would lead them into a labyrinth
of folly. (Cheers.)

Mr. POUNCEY, in moving the first resolution,
denounced in strong terms the Government bill, as by
one of its clauses it disfranchised no less than 10,000
of the 40s. freeholders. He condemned the bill, as
it contained no opening for the working classes—
(hear, hear)—and he deemed it his sacred and
solemn duty to oppose any measure that did not
admit the working man to the exercise of his
undoubted right, the franchise. (Hear, hear.) He
concluded by moving the following resolution :

" That this meeting considers the proposed measure'of the
present Government for Parliamentary Reform utterly un-
worthy the acceptance of the people, as, by still excluding
the great body of the people from the exercise of the fran-
chise, by perpetuating the gross inequalities of representa-
tion, by retaining the small, corrupt and nomination
boroughs, and by withholding the Ballot—the only security
against bribery and intimidation—it leaves the chief evils
and anomalies of the present system untouched." _

Mr. ROBINSON, in seconding the resolution, said
he did so because he thought it would be acceptable
to the great majority of the people. He viewed
the Government measure as a trick, a sham, and an
attempt to impose upon the intellect of the people.
(Loud cheers.) The popular voice, in his opinion,
was decidedly opposed to the measure, as they had,
after waiting for years, determined to have a much
more comprehensive bill than that now put for-
ward. [A person in the body of the hall called out
" Bright's bill," which elicited cheers, hisses, and
cries of" No, no."] The Times had stated on a former
occasion that there was no need of reform, but that
journal was again turning round—(cheers)—it was
only watting until the people had pronounced, and
then it would be ready to advocate the necessity of
reform. (Hear, hear.) The bill of the Government
did not give the people the ballot. Now that cir-
cumstance aloe was a great mistake, for without
it all extension of the franchise would be worse
than useless. He called upon the meeting to do all
that was possible to defeat the measure which had
so many omissions. _

Mr. MANTLE then came forward, and, in a long
speech, said the bill was unworthy of the support
of the English people.

Mr. WHITEHURST (the Vise-President of the
Ballot Society) advocated the necessity of the
ballot forming a prominent part in any Reform
Bill that might be adopted. As it was not intro.
duced in the Government measure that bill ought
to be instantly rejected.

After a stormy discussion the resolution was
carried with the following addenda :

" That this meeting is further of opinion that the only
legitimate basis of a national reform is to be found in man-
hood suffrage, and that no bill will meet with the concur-
rence of the inhabitants of Westminster unless it contains
that vital element of reform."

Sir D. L. EVANS then came forward to address
the meeting, and, was received with loud cheers.
He said in all his experience he never met with
such a sham and transparent humbug as the
Government Reform Bill, which it would be an act
of cruelty to treat with all the severity it deserved.
(Hear, hear.) But such a measure was to be ex-
pected, for it emanated from a party who never
had been very anxious about the question of re-
form. (Cheers.) It professed to be a Reform
Bill with an extension of the suffrage,
but instead of that it was an anti-reform bill, with
a diminution of the suffrage. (Cheers.) The great
principle of the bill was that it had no principe at
all. Instead of extending the franchise, it would
reduce the county constituency by two or three
hundred thousand, instead of increasing it, as it
ought to do by two or three millions.
.The Govern-
ment bill was technically the only measure before
Parliament ; but they had become acquainted with
the outline of another bill, and he should consider
it his duty to support in the House of Commons the
most liberal measure that was proposed there.
(Loud cheers.) He had tendered his support to
Mr. Bright, as he was perfectly ready to follow
him as a zealous soldier in the ranks of reform.
Manhood suffrage had been brought before them,
but he was not prepared to say that that was a com-
plete suffrage, because if so admitted he did not
see how it would be possible to withhold
from independent women the privilege of a vote.
(Laughter.) He was in favour of a large
extension of the suffrage, which he did not think
could be designated as a revolutionary step. (Hear,
hear.) There was another reason he had for ex-
tending the basis of the constitution, as there was
a military power lying alongside of us which was
preparing in a most suspicious manner, and it
behoved this country, when they saw such things
going on, to get their house in order. (Cheers.)
The gallant General then referred to the arrival of
Poerio and the other Neapolitan victims in Cork
harbour, and expressed an opinion that the people
should take some steps to show their sympathy with
them. He thought they could even now very well
give three hearty cheers for them. (The suggestion
was met with a very hearty response.)
Sir J. SliELxv, T
M., said, he thought that the
Governmentmieasure had been so thoroughly
smashed that he had little to say further than to
denounce it as an imposture, a sham, and a take in.
(Cheers.) It had been proposed to allow the bill to
go into committee, in order that some of the objec-
tionable parts of it might be amended, but imme-
diately after he had heard Mr. Duncombe's speech
he had determined to give his vote for preventing
its second reading. (Cheers.) The bill of the Go-
vernment had kept out the working classes; that was
one defect, and it kept out many respectable and
intelligent people from the franchise, which was
another ; and a third was that, although it pro-
fessed to disfranchise a small number of boroughs,
it left many untouched that ought to have been
swept away. He objected to the proposed dis-
franchisement of freeholders in boroughs. The
effect of such a step would be that, in Westminster
alone, 1,387 persons would be disfranchised. The
public did not want any of these fancy franchises,
as proposed by the Government. (Cheers.) They
wanted scm Ahing straightforward—(cheers)—
something they could understand. [(Cheers.) The
proposition to enfranchise doctors, barristers, and
schoolmasters sounded well, but it was

DIOEEY' lIIARICET AND CITY NEWS.

CITY, Two o'CLocK.

There is a steady demand for discount accommo-
dation in Lombard-street, but at the Bank of
England the inquiries have fallen off, owing no
doubt to the lower rates again accepted in the
open market for the negotiation of first-class secu-
rities. The terms range as low as 21 and 21 per cent.
The requirements of the commercial public are still
very moderate, but during the last few weeks the
uncertainty created by foreign politics has checked
operations, and to some extent may have influenced
the demand for accommodation. While the sup-
plies continue so extensive no permanent reaction
in the terms is considered probable, and there are
several who anticipate a 2 per cent. minimum
before many months have elapsed, unless new
channels are opened, either in the shape of loans
or joint-stock companies, for the active employ-
ment of capital. One circumstance, which
strengthens the impression that the existing easi-
ness will be prolonged, is the steady influx of
Australian gold, and the limited exports which, if
continued, must result in a further accumulation of
bullion.

In the Foreign Exchanges yesterday afternoon
a considerable decline was recorded in the rates on
Vienna and Trieste.

About £13,000 in gold, principally by the Red
Jacket, was sent into the Bank of England yester-
day. The gold by the Atrato—viz., £7B,soo—from
the West Indies, has been taken for the Continent.
The steamer which leaves for the Brazils to-day
will convey £85,867 in gold and silver.
The Silver Market continues steady, and the
bars by the last West India steamer have been
disposed of at ss. 11d. per oz., showing no altera-
tion.
Accounts from Liverpool state that the Cotton
Market, yesterday, presented rather more anima-
tion, and prices of all descriptions continued
extreme. The sales amounted to 10,000 bales. In
the Railway Share Market business was steady,
and quotations fully maintained.
The announcement, last evening, that a slight
relapse had taken place in the Paris Bourse was
sufficient to affect the English Stock Market. At
the commencement of business this morning a
decline of about per cent. ensued, and an uneasy
feeling has been exhibited amongst the operators
for a rise, some of whom have realised, and this
has consequently created heaviness. The dealings
this morning have been very limited, and the
market has been kept in a state of suspense
until the receipt of later advices from the
Paris Bourse, There is still a disposition to
entertain a favourable feeling with regard
to the future ; but much anxiety, of course,
still exists until continental affairs assume a more
encouraging appearance. Consols are about 951 96
for money, and 96 to 961 for the April account.
The Government broker has purchased £20,000
stock for the savings banks. Bank Stock has been
marked 227 and 2291 for special transfer ; the
Reduced, 96a for ditto, and the New 3 per Cents.
are flat at 961 d ; Exchequer Bills, 365. to 395. ;
India Loan Debentures are 99, and the Bonds 20s.
premium.
In the Foreign Stock Market about an average
amount of business has been transacted, and prices
remain without any material alteration. Turkish
6 per Cents. are 93 to 931; ditto, New Loan, 791
to 80 ; Dutch 4 per Cents. are steady, at 1001,
Mexi-
can at 201, and Buenos Ayres Deferred at 181 ;
Venezuelan Deferred are flat at 17k, and Spanish
Deferred at 30Z- ; Russian 4+ per Cents. are firm,
at 1001, and Sardinian at 821. The New Austrian
Loan is 1-1 to 1 dis.
The Railway Share Market has been moderately
active, but a downward tendency has prevailed in
some instances, while in others there has been a
slight improvement, owing to the favourable traffic
returns. Caledonians and Chester and Holyhead
have improved ss. • Great Western and Midland,
10s. ; and Great Northern, £l. Eastern Counties,
South Western, and North Eastern (Berwick),
declined ss. ; North Eastern (York), 10s. ; and
Brighton, £l.
The Foreign undertakings have been depressed.
Lombardo-Venetian have declined about 55., and
Paris and Lyons, 10s. Great Luxembourg brought
former rates.

In the Colonial Market, East Indian have receded
about ss. ' • Great Western of Canada, 10s. ; Grand
Trunk of Canada have exhibited a considerable
improvement in consequence of the new arrange-
ment published yesterday being quoted 35, 351, 36.
Joint-Stsck Bank and Miscellaneous Shares are
a shadefirmer. London and County have improved
10s. • London and Westminster, ss. ; Electric Tele-
graph and Madras Irrigation brought former rates.

BRITISII FUNDS—CLOSING PRICES
rank Stock
3 per Cent. Reduced Annuities Shut 961
3 per Cent. Consols Annuities
New 3 per Cent. Annuities 96% a
Lon!: Annuities, expire sth Jan., 1860 Shut
Ditto 30 Years, expire 10th Oct., 1859 Shut
Ditto 30 Years, expire sth Apr., 1885 Shut
India Stock
Ditto Debentures 99
Ditto Bonds, £l,OOO
Ditto under £l,OOO
Consols for Account (April)
March. June.
Exchequer Bills, £l,OOO, 2d. & 11d.. 36 9 5 1
FOREIGN FUNDS—CLOSING PRICES.
Buenos Ayres, 6 per Cont.
Ditto Deferred
Chilian, 6 per Cent
Ditto 41 per Cent. Scrip 2l d
Danish, 1825, 3 per Cent.
Ditto 5 per Cent.
Mexican 3 per Cent.
Ditto Account
Russian, 1822, £ St., 5 per Cent a —
Ditto 41 per Cent.
Sardinian, 5 per Cent.
Ditto Account
Spanish 3 per Cent
Ditto New Deferred, 3 per Cent.
Ditto Account • 3oa
Turkish per Cent.• Ditto Account
Ditto New Loan
Ditto Account
Venezuelan 5 per Cent.
Ditto Deferred
Dividends on the above payable in London.
Dutch Exchange, 12 Guil. 21 per Cent —
Ditto Certificates, 4 per Cent.
THREE O'CLOCK.
Consols, Money 9si 6
Consols for Account (April) 96 1

:: 201 20

•. • • 82:`-
3
•• • • 44i

Their Royal Highnesses the Duchess of Cam-
bridge and the Princess Mary honoured the Countess of
Clarendon with their company last night, at her ladyship's
" reception" in Grosvenor-crescent. Colonel Home Purves
was in attendance on their royal highnesses. A small
circle were present to meet the illustrious visitors. _

---
FATAL ACCIDENT.--Yesterday morning a fatal
accident occurred to a man named William Baker, aged
thirty years, who resided in Thames-street. It appears
that the deceased went to drown a cat at Southwark bridge,
when he slipped from one of the barges and fell in, and,
being rapidly hurried away by the current, was drowned
before assistance could arrive.