The Sun.
London, England, 1861-04-16 00:00:00

faith enough in free trade to believe that an increase in our than £BO,OOO, represents the reductions of establishments, as
exports must have accompanied an increase in our importa- far as they have gone, in the Customs' Department, which
tions. (Hear, hear.) The importation of silks is generally are among the beneficial results of the legislation of last
associated with the deep distress in particular districts of year. Ido not by any means think that the limits of those
this country, but it singularly happened that, as far as re- useful retrenchments have been reached, but in all reduc-
gards the trade of the season of 1860, the article of ribands tions of this sort there are always superannuations to be
In - which the manufacturers and weavers of Coventry are provided, and the charges for superannuations will fall upon
interested, is one of relatively few that exhibited an abso- this estimate. The packet service is £995,000. That is an
lute decrease of importation. I may likewise say in refer- estimate which always fills me with some jealousy. (Hear.)
ence to the treaty, that it is not the riband manufacturers This year there is a diminution in it, which is mainly due
of France, as I am informed, with whom the people of to the receipt of certain colonial payments in aid of the
Coventry have to cope, but the thrifty and industrious wea. colonial packet service. The total estimate for the expen-
vers of Basle, who are the producers of the cheapest ribands diture of the year is £69,900,000—in round numbers,
and the most formidable rivals to our manufacturers. Of £70,000,000. The vote of credit for the Chinese operations
has been calculated on the same principles as heretofore. It
:gumption of English ribands, but the statement I have
course, we have no means of knowing what is the con-
is impossible to be quite precise with regard to a small ex-
obtained from private sources, from persons at cess or a small diminution, but Ido not doubt that sub-
.the centre of the manufacture, who have the best means of stantially it is likely to correspond with such demands as
information, is this,—that in 1860 there was a decrease in will be made upon us. The house will be asked also to vote
a certain sum-1200,000—for army excess in the year 1859-
the importation of French ribands of about 12/ per cent.,
6 and in the use of English ribands of 26 2-3ds per cent. 60. That is a matter into which Ido nit enter. I know
e Hear, hear," from Mr. Newdegate.) My hon. friend's
there is a controversy going on which another set of com-
cheer refers, no doubt, to the fact that there was a greater batants have all to themselves, but it has no bearing on the
statement I have made, because it is asked for a charge
decease in English than in French ribands. The change
of last year, while beneficial in its general character, aggra-
which has received Parliamentary sanction, which has been
vated, I have no doubt, but certainly did not cause, the
incurred and met, and it does not enter into the balance-
the distress in Coventry. (Hear, hear.) I much regret sheet of the year. £69,900,000, then, is the sum at which
the coincidence in time of the two circumstances ; but it we estimate the expenditure of the year. I come now to the
was, I believe, partly the change of fashion and still more estimate of the revenue for the year. (Cheers.) And in
the sad weather, which almost destroyed the spring de- stating the amount of the revenue I will take the liberty of
ttand, which was the cause of those difficulties and cala- including certain small sums which will be proposed through
taffies. (Hear.) lam deeply sorry that a change which some minor financial adjustments which we are about to
was absolutely demanded in justice to the people and every make. The whole extent of them is very small, if we ex-
class of producers should for a moment and in a particular cept those stamps to which I have just referred. They will
instance have been accompanied by any distress. We heard not be perhaps more than £50,000 a year, but it is more
last year in this house a woful tale of the destruction im- convenient to include these items than to bring forward
pending over I know not how many millions of the pro- substantive details with regard to them. In the Customs
perty of our British fellow-subjects in North America. revenue we propose to double the duty which was laid
Notwithstanding the terrors of that prophecy we perse- last year upon the article of chicory, and, including that
vered in our legislation, and I must record it to the honour small sum, the Customs will yield £23,585,000. Of course
of the colonists, that, as far as lam aware, not one word has that includes the augmented duty on spirits, which is now
escaped from them in complaint of the just and expedient in full operation. The revenue of the Excise will be
measures adopted by Parliament for the benefit of the £19,463,000. The revenue of stamps will be £8,460,000.
country. (Hear, hear.) lam happy to say that they are Under those heads are included some further small changes
not,ruined, and that their property is, to all appearance, in of which I will now take cursory notice. We propose to
a very satisfactory condition. There has been an immense reduce the amount, which has long been felt to be high, for
increase in the importations of foreign timber, but colonial hawkers' licences. The payment is now £4, which we know
timber has not disappeared from the British market, and is a severe payment. We propose to reduce that which is a
has been more in demand than it was before. (Hear, hear.) £4 licence, if taken for a year, to £2, and at the same time
In 18.59-60 colonial timber and deals were imported to the to allow licences for half a year to be taken for £l. (Hear,
extent of 1,262,000 loads. In 1860-61, after the perpetra.. hear.) That change, it is expected, will be made without
tion of the act of destruction to the trade, as we were told any loss of revenue. With regard to the Refreshment
it would be, the import of colonial timber and deals rose to Houses Act, we propose to declare more clearly the law,
1,276,000. (Hear, hear.) The objection taken last year and in so declaring to enlarge the meaning of refreshment
to the measures adopted by the house was that the houses with respect to their liability to duty when kept
duties reduced and abandoned were of moderate amount, open at night. The effect of legislation last year was to con-
useful for fiscal purposes, and without any ten- fine the imposition of duty to those houses which were kept
dency to restrain trade and consumption. I will give the open at night; but it was the clear intention and desire of
import of four leading articles cf food set free from duty Parliament that all classes of those houses should be em-
last year—butter, cheese, eggs, and rice. In 1859.60 butter braced. I propose to clear the law and likewise to declare
was imported into this country to the extent of £2,362,000 in that a particular class of shops shall be taken—that tobacco
value ;in 1860-61 the import rose to £4,122,000. In 1859-60 shops, where they are kept open for the purpose of amok .
cheese was imported to the amount of £1,097,000, and in ing, shall be included. (Laughter.) That change will pro-
-1860-61 to the amount of £1,592,000. The import of eggs duce, as we estimate, about £20,000. There is another
rose from £345,000 in 1859-60 to £497,000 in 1860-61, and change which we are about to malie, which I must say is
the import of rice in the same years from £890,000 to one of the clearest in the policy on which it is founded ever
£1,142,000. In the importation of these four articles there submitted to Parliament, and it is a matter on which con-
was a total increase of from £4,694,000 in 1859-60 to siderable interest is felt by many members. I refer to the
£7,300,000 in 1860-61. It cannot fail to awaken a senti- state of our law with regard to the sale of spirits. Probably
ment of wonder in the mind of every one who hears me many gentlemen have not inquired into the method by
when I exhibit by itself—because it is an exceptional article, which, when there is a necessity for the use of a small quan-
excess in the importation of which must tend, if it has any tity of spirits in their own household, that demand is usually
effect, to restrain the importation of all other articles, and supplied. lam afraid that if the proceedings of hon. mem-
So displace them for the moment—the import of corn. In bers, as heads of families, were investigated, it would turn
1859-60 the importations of corn amounted in value to out that probably nine-tenths of them were breakers of the
£17,384,000, but in 1860-61 they rose to no less a sum than law. (Laughter.) But the law is so irrational that I cannot
£38,159,000. (Hear, hear.) We must, of course, regret refuse to submit the alteration of it to Parliament. The law
the diminution of the resources of producers and the in- is this, that unless a man wants for the purposes of his
creased tax on consumers within our own shores which house or family as large a quantity of spirits as two gallons,
those figures imply ; but, on the other hand, it must in- which most probably would not be consumed in most of our
spire every man with a deep and cordial sentiment of thank- houses, or in many of them, in a twelvemonth—unless he
fulness to the Almighty disposer of events, that in the day wants two gallons of spirits, which must be left in the keep-
of our scarcity no barrier was interposed between our wants ing of servants, with the temptation incident thereto, he
and an abundant supply, and that the ships of England has no choice but to send a servant for it to a publichouse.
came over every sea, almost bursting with the cargoes that I really must say that law is a discredit to society. I think
made up the enormous amount I have stated. (Cheers.) the condition imposed on the whole middle class disgraceful
The figures I have quoted represent, I believe, from —that all who do not keep men servants, but have women
23,000,000 to 24,000,000 quarters. The importation in the servants, should, when they have occasion to send for a
financial year just ended was more than double that of the small quantity of spirits for a sick child or a sick wife, have
previous year, the percentage of increase being 1191 per no choice but to send a woman servant for it to a public-
cent. (Hear, hear.) I take next a very small class of house. (Hear.) What we propose is, that on payment of
articles on which a duty was imposed in 1860. In what £3 3s. a-year the wholesale spirit dealer, who now pays
may be called the simplification of the Customs' Tariff cer- £lO 10s. a-year, may acquire the right of selling retail. By
tain articles, particularly limited branches of the wood that'change we expect to obtain a revenue of £5,000 a-year ;
trade, were brought under a duty, and the result is rather and my picture of the present state of the law is completed
singular. I believe the measure was a sound one and for when I say that it is the constant practice of the Board of In-
the interests of commerce, but the result shows what the land Revenue, when breaches are made known to them, not
working of these things is. The total value of the impor- to press for penalties, the law being one which it is clearly
tations of these articles, principally chicory and certain impossible to carry into effect. (Hear, hear.) Then there is
woods in 1859-60, was £2,906,000, and in 1860-61 it was but a change in the stamps at present applicable to agreements
£2,405,000 being a decrease of £501,000, or 171 per cent. for furnished houses let for less than a year. At present
I crave the particular attention of the Committee to the they pay the same ad valorem duty as a conveyance. The
figures which lam now about to give. Without any selec- principle in other cases is to tax mush lower agreements of
tion of articles, I will give in three classes the whole of the a fugitive character, and we propose, instead of 10s. for
duties which we have now before us. First of all, always every £lOO of value, to require a stamp duty of 2s. 6d. on
excepting corn, I will give you the whole of the articles every part of an agreement—that is to say ss. for the whole,
forming the subjects of British trade in the way of imports whatever may be the amount of letting. That will yield a
which were left untouched by the legislation of last year. I small revenue of £5,000 a-year. We shall take care that
will then give you those on which Parliament last year re- the duty is enfOrced and paid, which is not so at present.
duced the duties, and lastly, I will give you the articles on We also propose that house agents in all cases shall take
which the duties were wholly repealed. The imports of out a£2 licence, so as to keep them under the view of the
those articles the duties on which were left untouched last Revenue Department with respect to these stamps. There
year amounted in 1859-60 to £138,158,000. In 1860-61 the will also be an alteration of the law with respect to foreign
value was nearly the 5ame—£137,406,000, being a trifling bills of exchange. Instead of having jumps as I may term
decrease of 1 per cent., showing us, in point of fact, a stn- them, of considerable amount, the stamps will increase by
tionary condition—always excepting corn—as to the general ls. for every £lOO, and in that way we shall economise and
condition of trade. I come now to the articles on which the render more convenient the operation of the law. Those
duty was reduced last year. In 1859-60 the value of the small charges, with the transfer of £50,000, the fees of the 1
imports of those articles was £11,346,000, but in 1860-61 district registrars of the Court of Probate, will raise the '
the value was £13,323,000, showing an increase of revenue of the Excise to £19,463,000 ; the stamps will give, as
£1,976,000, or 171 per centage, while the rest of the trade I have already said, £8,460,000 ; the revenue from taxes will
of the country was stationary. (Hear.) Next come the be £3,150,000; and the revenue from the income-tax will be
articles on which the duties were repealed in 1860. The £11,200,000. Of course, the committee will have perceived
value of the importation of those articles in 1859-60 was that in making this statement lam assumingthecontinuance
£15,735,000, while in 1860-61 it was £22,062,000, being an in statu quo of all taxes which exist; and that is obviously the
increase of £6,327,000, orno less than 401 percent. (Cheers.) most convenient mode. (Laughter.) The revenue from
The principle I take it on which we have proceeded through- the Crown lands is expected to be £295,000, and the mis-
out in our operations on these classes of articles has been cellaneous revenue £1,400,000. Upon that I will say
this—that the true basis on which to consolidate the revenue that although the miscellaneous revenue has lost the ,
of this country lies in the extension of its trade. 'the ex- benefit this year of £250,000 received in payment from
parlance is narrow and the time is short ; the treaty with Spain, yet on the other hand it profits very considerably by
France is still a one-sided instrument ; the French legisla.. a new arrangement with the East India Company with re-
tion is not in operation, except as to some two or tbree ference to the payment of non-effective services. It had
heads, which are not amongst the most weighty or im. becomelittle more than £60,000. It will be now £250,000.
portant. You have not got nearly the benefit which That bringsthemiscellaneousrevenueto £1,400,000. Lastly,
is to arise from it; but in this year, when we needed we estimate theindemnity from China to be received by the
increased means of employment for the people, we are able 31st of March, 1862, at £750.000. That is more than a
to show that by means of the reductions made by that year's receipt of that indemnity. I hear an hon. member
treaty and the accompanying measures an addition has say " the occupation will cost more." I look upon money
already been made to the trade of the country of nearly from a Chinese indemnity as unhappily representing a
£9,000,000. (Cheers.) For my own part, I believe that the much larger sum which we have spent. (Hear, hear.) But
merits of this instrument, considered with reference to its this £750,000 must be taken as representing about a year
commercial consequences, may well stand on the results of and a half's indemnity. Twosums have beenpaid. Nothing
such a statement. (Hear, hear.) I will now pass from the has been brought to account. Although we cannot regard
retrospective part of my duty to that which concerns the these payments minutely and precisely as if we were deal-
future, thanking the house for the indulgence which they ing with payments at home, yet on the whole I think the
have shown me (cheers), and assuring them that I shall not two payments already made and five quarterly payments
have to make such extravagant demands on their time in the will give a sum of £750,000 in China, which will come to
portion of my task which still remains. I come now to the credit and be available for expenditure up to the 31st of
financial year which hasalready begun-1861-62, and I have March, 1862. [An hon. member.—" How much from the
first to present to the Committee the estimate of the expen- Post-office
"] The Post-office will yield £3,500,000. The
diture
.befere of the country for that year. Much of it is already total of those items is £71,823,000, and if not the very largest
them, and the whole will very shortly be in their it is one of the largest, estimates of revenue which has ever
hands. The interest on the Funded and Unfunded Debt been
presented to this country in a time of peace. (Cheers.)
in 1861-62 will amount to £26,180,000. I may say on this It remains to compare this sum with the estimate of expen-
head that there are various modifications of minor points in diture. The estimate of expenditure is £69,000,000, so that
it ; the interest of the Unfunded Debt is increased, and the on the face of the estimates there is a surplus of estimated
interest of the Funded Debt diminished, in consequence of revenue over estimated expenditure to the extent of
the lapse of certain annuities; but it is not worth while £1,923,000. (Cheers.) And, Sir, I must say I cannot pro-
taking up the time of the house by going into these matters nounce that sum without hearing a.great crash. I hear
at present. The Consolidated Fund charges is £1,930,000, somewhere in the distance a great downfall of prophecies,
the Army and Militia £15,256,000, and the Navy predictions, forebodings, lamentations, sympathies, rem0n-
£12,029,000. I may say here that it will b., our duty to ask strances, and regrets, of which the crop last year, though
the house for a further vote of credit on accout tof the war it was a bad season for other products, was most abundant.
in China, which will probably amount to £1,000,000. The (Cheers and laughter.) We come now to the question of
total charge for military operations under these heads, ordi- the proposals of the Government with regard to the
nary and extraordinary, will be £28,285,000, without in- balance. It is now time that I should repeat the observe-
eluding the packet service, which is now removed to a sepa- Lions which I have just made as a matter of form, that it
rate vote. The Miscellaneous Civil Services charge is is not a balance which we possess, but which, if we
£7,7 37,000. Upon this particular head of expenditure I will are to
has expired.wetahaveit,T
muhset
aa(ntklyevoyuintoggee
tieta.
andTl ae
slungcaorm e-
dutiest a s
just venture to say that there is an apparent increase Act
in the gross sum to be voted this year for the
expires on the 30th of June. Between the two they repro-
Miscellaneous Civil Services amounting to £203,000;
sent a sum of £22,000,000. We shall have to ask you to re-
but I have the satisfaction of assuring the Committee, on new bills, of which I shall say more by and by, but the
the other hand, that there is no general increase in these authority for renewing which we shall have to obtain from
estimates. I can very readily account for more than the You. Her Majesty's Government have come to the conclu-
£2o3,ooo which represents this apparent increase. The
-ion that they cannot reasonably expect to be allowed to
main part is a real charge, although it is a charge which is keep in hand a balance so large as that which I have
occasional, and a charge in respect to which we obtain value named. Independently of the circumstance that it does not
far what we pay. The census which is now going on will grow out of existing laws, but depends on grants to be
cost the country, I_believe, £127,000. A sum £37,000 will made in Committee of Ways and Means, it would, in point
be charged in the estimates for the salaries of the district of fact, be an amount which no Chancellor of the Exche-
teet'
rrstrars under the Court of Probate ; but more than a quer for the last 30 years—since the present arrangement
ofateasto_
ndin,g sum, £56,000, will be received in the shape of the Sinking Fund—has ever presumed to ask or has ever
.
cf,ficerr representing the fees which are paid to those had the smallest chance or hope of obtaining. I therefore
Therefore that increase There is ruk represents an economy, presume, sir, that I shall carry with me the approval of the
extra charge of
teeudtijou . f
with the ex £lO,OOO for the Mint connected committee when I say that we think this is an occasion on
Is counteract the copper coinage, but that charge which'we may dispose of a portion of this balance by the
£90,000 in the ia satisfactory manner by the set-off of remission of taxes. When I have got thus fir it is obvious
of ,E 56,000. miscellaneous revenue, showing a net profit that four subjects, all of them important, will occur to the
which deserve there aseveral charges in the estimates mind of every man who considers the question. Two of
particularh attention of the house, one of
which is connected with them are the duties upon tea and sugar—(hear, hear)—and
in Western North Americase drawing of the frontiers line these subjects are connected together by the fact that the
:eft ween the British territory duties were imposed together and have been handled top-
and the United States, Ete
sicierable expense will have to be which lam afraid a con- ther !or the purpoee of war and for the purpose of meeting
incurred. I bo an extraordinary expenditure. (Hear hear )It is quite true
ca-er, leave it t ) my right hon. friend the Secreta y will,of thew- I that the duties now leviable upon tea' and, sugar are what
Treasury to expl"in theadtd. ietion to these Secretary
in detail ' are called war duties; that is to say, that it was in conside-
att the proper time. Forfoih present lam justified in say- ration of a war that Parliament consented not absolutely
ing that, while both in former years and this year we have and in fact to raise them, at least as regards 'tea, but to
somewhat retrenched the chargesfor the Miscellaneous allow them to remain at a higher point than had previously
Estimates by the u.,,e, of balances which were found shading been contemplated : and I think that no one can fail to feel
to the credit of respective items, the provision we make that they are duties the reduction of which is greatly to be
will be amply sufficient for the expenditure, and the figures desired. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, while the duty
I have laid before the Committee, though they may present upon tea is more than 100 per cent, and the duty upon sugar
some apparent increase, do not represent any real or general is over 50 per cent., the supplies of both articles are abun-
-increase. (Hear, hear.) The Revenue Department charge dant, the consumption
of them both in ordinary years and in
is £4,780,000. That is a diminution, as compared with last , t
increase,
ordinary
states of the country, shows a decided disposition
.
3retir. A considerable part of that diminution—not less ° Increase, and there is no such great difficulty attending

them as to give them an urgent, imperative, and para-
mount claim upon the attention of Parliament. The other
two subjects which must occur to the minds of the commit-
tee are those which were likewise associated together in the
legislative proposals of last year and in the debates of this
house ; I mean what is called the tenth penny on the in-
come tax and the repeal of the paper duty. (Hear.) When
her Majesty's Government proposed the repeal of the duties
upon paper the issue was raised by my hon. friend the mem-
ber for Somersetshire (Sir W. Miles), representing the Op-
position, of course, in the form which he thought was most
favourable to himself, but which undoubtedly involved no
unfairness and could not be complained of—viz., that the
10th penny of the income tax was imposed in order to bring
about the repeal of the duties upon paper. These are the
subjects upon the discussion of which I wish to enter at this
moment, and to which I invite the particular attention of
the committee. And here we are faced by the old question
between direct and indirect taxation. I take some credit to
myself that I have never entered into the debates upon that
subject. I have always thought it idle for a person holding
the position of Finance Minister to trouble himself with
what to him is necessarily an abstract question—viz., the
question between direct and indirect taxation, each consi-
dered upon its own merits. To many people both appear
sufficiently repulsive. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As for
myself! confess that I entertain quite a different opinion.
I never can think of direct and indirect taxation except as I
should think of two fair sisters who have been introduced
into the gay world of London, each with an ample fortune,
both having the same parentage—for the parents of both I
believe to be necessity and invention—having somewhat
different manners, one being more free and open, and the
other more retiring and insinuating. (Laughter.) I cannot
conceive any reason why there should be any unfriendly
rivalry between the admirers of these two damsels ; and I
frankly own, whether it be due to a lax sense of morals or
not, that, as a Chancellor of the Exchequer or a member of
this house, I have always thought it not only allowable but
even an act of duty to pay one's addresses to them both.
(Laughter.) lam therefore perfectly impartial as between
direct and indirect taxation ; but this I must say, that with
regard to the remission of indirect taxes, I hope that the
memorable history of the last 20 years will never be forgot-
ten, for I do not scruple to state that if you look to its eco-
nomical, and then to its political, social, and moral results,
it is difficult to know which to prefer. (Hear.) If we had not
gained a shilling by the remission of indirect taxation, it
would have been worth having for the sake of the manner
in which it has knit together the interests and feelings of all
classes from one end of the nation to the other. (Cheers.)
If, on the other hand, it bad had nothing to do with any
question of moral and social results, still the merely econo-
mical results in promoting the material well-being of the
people have been so signal and extraordinary, that we may
well rejoice to have lived in a period during which it has
been our happy lot to take part in bringing about such
changes. (Cheers.) But, Sir, there cannot be a grosser de-
lusion than the supposition that the work of Parliament has
been to destroy indirect taxation. The business in which
Parliament has been employed has been the business of
pruning the tree—not to destroy it, but in order to streng-
then it and give it greater size and vigour; and the conse-
quence is that at this moment, when indirect taxation has
been destroyed and undermined in the public mind, as the
phrase is, not once but four or five times over, indirect taxa-
tion is larger and more productive, I do not mean in this
particular year, but upon the average of the last two or
three years, than at any former period of our history. This
recalls to my mind the tree of golden leaves which has been
described by Virgil, from which his hero was ordered to
pluck a branch, and on which the moment one branch was
plucked another took its place. The poet says :

of the Exchequer. Under these circumstances we are con-
vinced that we are making a proposal which will receive,
not the acquiescence only, but the approval and sanction of
the house. I trust there is no ore here who thinks this an
improvident measure—what is called a sacrifice of the en-
tire source of revenue, and that the repeal of this tax leaves
behind it no reproductive powers. I have in my hand an ac-
count of the Excise duties. In 1844 these amounted to
£14,469,000; since then we have repealed £2,355,000, and
assuming that no reproductive power exists in measures of
this class, there should now remain of Excise £12,114,000,
instead of which they amounted, in 1859, to £20,224,000
(Hear, hear.) Of course, in that sum was included a cer-
tain amount—perhaps about £2,ooo,ooo—arising from the.
augmentations in Scotland and Ireland, but the great bulk
of that increase was derived from the augmented strength
and consuming power of the country, arising from the ex-
tension of its trade, industry, and enterprise. Let me give
the committee the financial results of this proposition. We
have a balance of £1,923,000. One penny taken off the in-
come-tax will deprive us for three-fourths of the year dur-
ing which the change will be in operation of £850,000. We
cannot propose the repeal of the paper duty from the 15th
August, the period which was fixed on last year, because
that would trsnch rather too sharply on the balance at our
command. We propose to date its remission from the Ist
of October. The loss on Excise revenue by repealing the
paper duty will be £675,000; and there will be a loss of
Customs' duty from the same cause of £15,000 ; making
together £690,000. There will be, however, a saving by
reduction of the vote for stationery of about £ls,ooo—a
sum representing but a very small proportion of the direct
saving which the public will make by the repeal. Adding
to this £lO,OOO, the amount of the saving by reduction of
the establishment charges for the half-year, the total saving
will amount to £25,000, leaving a net loss on the repeal of
the paper duty of £665,000. Coupling this with the reduc-
tion of income-tax, the total remission will be £1,515,000,
which, when deducted from the balance of revenue, will
leave a residue of surplus to the moderate amount of
£408,000. (Loud cheers.) On the part of the Government
I must make an appeal to the house. I venture to express
a hope that they will give us their support in resisting any
attempt at invading this very moderate surplus. (Hear,
hear.) The Government have selected what they thought
great and important items of remission, which it was their
duty to make for the benefit of the community at large,
and of the trade and industry of the country; and with
respect to other demands, even though they should appear
reasonable in themselves, we feel it an absolute obligation,
in which we trust the committee will give us its
support, to decline, in the absence of further means
and a fuller Exchequer, to listen to any such un-
due excess of demand. But I must not finally dismiss
this subject without referring to a matter of consi-
derable importance—l allude to the minor charges on
trading operations. (Hear, hear.) In my official capacity
I have received memorials from several Chambers of Com-
merce, expressing the desire of the mercantile world to be
relieved from those charges, and I should be very sorry to
leave them under the impression that the expression of any
wish of theirs had not led to the most respectful examina-
tion:of the subject on the part of any Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and particularly on the part of one who like my-
self is closely connected by origin and association with their
class. The yield of these charges is about £310,000 or
£320,000 a year; and it is obvious that the Exchequer is
not in a condition to make a surrender of that sum. But
further, I am bound to say thetas regards the greater part
of] these charges I cannot admit that any case has been
made out to justify such a surrender. In all there are six
of them. The charge on dock warrants, the charge on de-
livery orders, and the charge on contract notes are the three
first. These three are stamp charges, and I believe them
to be as unobjectionable as almost any charges to be found
among the stamp duties of the country. Two others have
reasons for their maintenance entirely apart from theirfiscal
results. One of them consists in an imposition of a stamp
duty of Is. 6d. on the bills of lading of commodities expor-
ted from this country, and yields a sum of £40,000 or
£50,000 a year. But it was imposed for a purpose beyond
the mere collection of revenue—viz,, with a view of obtain-
ing accurate and trustworthy instead of inaccurate statisti-
cal information. That object we have been enabled by its
instrumentality to attain ; I am bound to say that I think it
one of great public value, and I cannot admit that a case
has been made out against the continuance of the tax. In
the same way, with reference to warehouse charges, an im-
portant object was effected in their imposition, a limitation
being thereby imposed on a source of enormous expendi-
ture, which was formerly made in extending wareaousing
privileges to small places with small trades ; and the effect
of the tax was to put on these places a portion of the charge
of the establishment. I confess I think that a very valuable
tax, and I am not prepared to admit that it is attended with
serious disadvantages, or with any great imposition of labour
in its collection. The remaining charge is one with
respect to which I must say that I cannot go
the same length. I refer to the charge of ld.
on goods imported into this country. I frankly
admit that although' the tax is attended with con-
siderable statistical benefit, I think there is a good deal of
labour connected with its collection imposed on the mer-
cantile classes ; and labour, after all, when it is imposed on
the taxpayer, is in itself an additional tax. (Hear, hear.)
If that cannot be got rid of by any arrangement, I am quite
'willing that Parliament, at an early period, should recon-
sider the subject. But with respect to the demands ad-
vanced by certain Chambers of Commerce, 1 think I have
shown that the Government, with such a moderate balance
as £408,000, would not be justified in acceding to their
demands. I only propose to re-enact the income-tax and
tea and sugar duties for a single year. There is an advan-
tage in a more permanent legislation, but we feel this diffi-
culty—if we were to ask for the re-enactment of those
duties for three years, that it would be said that such a
proposition implies a certainty that they will not be re-
duced before the end of three years Our object is to leave
these questions open, in the hope that we may see some
reductions of expenditure which it may be beneficial to
apply in that direction, and therefore, on the whole, we
think it fit for the moment, though admitting that the pro-
ceeding is not without inconvenience, to propose the re-
enactment of those taxes for one year. With respect to
the levying of the income-tax, the operation of last year,
' which brought into the compass of twelvemonths one
quarter of the former year and three-quarters of another,
now gives place to the normal condition, and the collection
for the year will be one-quarter at 10d. and three-quarters
at 9d. I shall, however, ask leave to introduce a clause
into the bill to facilitate the collection of the tax on certain
dividends which fell due since the let of April, and escaped
payment of the tax. (Laughter.) This is not an ex post
facto legislation, for the gentlemen who received these
one or two might forget to do so, and, to
dividends would be bound to return them iu Schedule D ;
pburetv,
ent
any
possibly
accident of that sort, the Bank and paying
bodies will be required to supply lists, so that the law may
be fairly and uniformly applied. (Hear, hear.) I shall
ask the committee to vote immediately, in the usual form,
withbut prejudice to the ultimate decision, a resolution
enabling me to charge double duty on foreign chicory.
That resolution is the only one on which I shall ask the
house to vote to-night; but I shall propose that the house
should again resolve into a Committee of Ways and Means
on Monday, in order to decide on the proposals of the
Government, as it is very desirable, in reference to the col-
lection of the income-tax and the making of the new assess-
ments this year, that the proceeding should be as expedi-
tiously effected as is conformable with the convenience of
the house. As to the mode and order of proceeding, we in-
tend to adopt that which we think will at once give the house
the greatest convenience in discussing the measures of the
Government, and be best suited to its position and office as
a branch of the Legislature. As our proposals are all strictly
financial, and as they are intended to form one single plan,
we shall present them all in proper connexion with one
another by a series of resolutions to the committee. The
income-tax resolution will be taken first ; then the resolu-
tion for the renewal of the duties on tea and sugar, and
afterwards the repeal of the duties on paper. Some minor
resolutions will follow, and when all are reported to the
house I shall ask leave to bring in a bill to give effect to
them. Having taken a financial survey of the affairs of this
country, I must now tender the expression of my gratitude
for the kindness and patience with which the committee
have followed me through what I may call a wilderness of
details, As respects the connexion between the general
condition and the financial state of the country, the result
is satisfactory. We have seen this country in the last few
years of European war under a burden of taxation such as, out
of a European war, i t never could have been called on to bear;
we have also seen the country under the pressure of a season
of blight such as hardly any of us recollect ; yet, on
looking around or; the face of England no one can perceive
any signs of decay, least of all in those attributes which
perhaps are the highest of all, and on which depend our
national existence—the spirit and courage of the country.
(Hear, hear.) It is needless to say that neither the
Sovereign on the throne, nor the nobles who have descended
from the gallant chieftains of the Middle Ages, nor the
citizens who represent the invincible soldiers of Cromwell,
nor the peasantry who are the children of the sturdy bow -
men that drew the crossbow on the fields of France,—
none show the slightest inclination to depart from the
tradition of their forefathers. (Cheers.) If there be any
danger, I confess it seems to me to lie in our recent policy
and tendency to unbounded excess in expenditure. Without
referring to any particular charges, I think that when we
perceive the rate at which we have been advancing for a
certain number of years, we must say that there has been
a tendency to break down all barriers and all limits. (Hear.)
For my own part I am deeply convinced that all excess in
the public expenditure beyond the wants of the country is
not only a pecuniary waste, but a great political and moral
evil. (Hear.) It is a characteristic of the evils which arise
from financial prodigality, that they come on with a slow
and surreptitious step, being unseen and unfelt until they
have reached a magnitude absolutely overwhelming, and
then we see them, as perhaps they now exist in the case of
one among the European countries, so fearful and menacing
of danger that they seem to threaten the very existence of
the nation. (Hear, hear.) Ido trust that the day will
come when a check will be put to the movement in this di-
rection ; and I think, as far as I have been able to trace the
sentiments, of the house during the present session, that the
tendency to which I have adverted has begun to be weaker.
It is certainly true that sweeping and rash reductions of ex-
penditure are to be deprecated almost as much as excess and

- Primo avulso non deficit alter
" Aureus; et simili frondescit virga metallo."
And he goes on with advice which we shall do well to fol

[Ow :-

" Ergo alte vestiga oculis, et rite repertum
" Carpe manu."
I believe that Parliament has done much of what is to be
accomplished in that matter, but yet something may remain,
and I trust that the House of Commons will not hold its
hand when favourable circumstances shall offer, but will
from time to time carry on so good a work within the limits
of prudence and justice. But, Sir, in speaking thus of indi-
rect taxation I cannot deny that remissions of direct taxation
are just as desirable, and las fully feel as gentlemen op-
posite may feel that our direct taxation has reached a
point at which it is most desirable that we should if we can
begin at least to apply to it the process of reduction. (Op-
position cheers.) Ido not think that the condition of this
country with regard to its finances can be wholly satisfactory
when, in time of peace, the income-tax stands at 10d. in the
pound. (General cheers.) I know very well that lam sup-
posed to be under a special responsibility not only for the
amount, but for the existence of the income-tax. (Hear.)
It has often been charged upon me, and I believe is to this
day alleged that it is my duty, whatever be the circum-
stances, and whatever be the expenditure, to find means of
abolishing that tax with or without a substitute. I must
confess that I think that is a hard imposition. I should like
very much to be the man who could abolish the income 4ax.
I do not abandOn altogether the hope that the time may come
(A laugh, and hear, hear.) I can assure hon. gentlemen
that I am:not going to be too sanguine. I was g oing to quote
the Rev. Sydney Smith, who in his admirable pamphlet
upon the ballot, speaking of some very remote result, says,
"I think we had better leave the care of this subject to
those little legislators who are now receiving a plum or a
cake after dinner." lam afraid that that course may be
necessary with regard to the income 4ax. But in point of
fact this is a question cf expenditure—(cheers)—and I will
not speak of expenditure as a thing that can be suddenly
and rapidly dealt with. Upon all sudden attempts to re-
duce it, and upon all promises to make sudden, extensive,
and sweeping reductions in it,l should look with great sus-
picion and disfavour ; but, if the country is content to be
governed at a cost of between £60,000,000 and £62,000,000
or £64,000,000 a-year, I do not believe that there is any
reason why it should not be so governed without the in-
come-tax, provided that Parliament so wills. (Hear, hear.)
If, on the other hand, it is the pleasure of the country to
be governed at a cost of between £70,000,000 and £75,000,000
a-year, it must be so governed with the aid of a consider-
able income-tax. That I believe to be the whole case, and
I really cannot conceive that my responsibility to abolish
the tax is so absolute as it has been represented by some
gentlemen. I think that it would be a most enviable lot
for any Chancellor of the Exchequer—l certainly do not
entertain any hope of it—but I think that some better
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in some happier times, may
achieve that great accomplishment, and that some future
poet may be able to sing of him as Mr. Tennyson has sung
of Godiva,—although I do not suppose the means employed
will be the same,—
" He took away the tax,
" And built himself an everlasting name."
What we have now to do is to deal with a moderate surplus,
and her Majesty's Government think that, looking at all
the circumstances of the case, they may in the present year
propose to Par/lament to remit from the income •tax the penny
which in 1860 they asked Parliament to impose. (Cheers.)
The cost of that change if it be accepted by the House of
Commons will be as follows :—Each penny of the income-
tax now yields about £1,100,000 a-year, and the remission
of this penny will in the course of the financial year cause a
loss of L 850,000. The tax will then be levied at the rate of
9d. in the pound upon incomes of above £l5O a-year, and of
6.1. in the pound upon incomes below that amount. The 9d.,
it will be recollected, was imposed upon the country without
any reference to remissions of duty. It was imposed in 1859
to meet the necessary charges of the year, and it stands
totally disconnected from the financial and legislative mea-
sures of the country. The fourth of those subjects to which
I refer is the duty on paper; and her Majesty's Govern-
ment feel that happily the time has now arrived when they
may approach the consideration of that question without
awakening adverse feeling, and when they may hope not
only that there will be no revival of a painful and arduous
controversy, but that by so doing they may seal and bring
the controversy to a final close. (Hear, hear.) I have
heard but few members of this house object to the repeal
of the paper duty on the merits of that proposal. My right
hon. friend the member for Coventry on the third reading
of the bill for the repeal of that duty gave expression to
sentiments which certainly did not accord with my own
feelings at the moment, but which I admit were felt by
many members of this house. On the Bth of May, 1860,
—and his observations will spare me the necessity of enter-
ing again into detail on the question—his words were :
have ‘‘ W
notit With r
we soprert
ot os tahye
itna x which
its
de defence.
we
carelt now
is
abelio
astini
as s so nd
odious

a tax as one can wellimagine. It is not only a tax which
interferes, as all Excise taxes do, with an important branch
of manufacture, being almost the only tax"—

My right hon. friend might, perhaps, have gone further,

and said the only one—
"Of that description now left in our fiscal system, but it
also impedes the circulation of information and of know-
ledge. Upon all these grounds no man is more dieposed to
repeal this tax, whenever we can do so without robbing the
Exchequer. But when we are called on to repeal it at the
risk of leaving a large deficit, or when we are called on to
impose other taxes equally odious to the people, I think we
should wait until some more favourable time presents itself."
My right hon. friend laid down two conditions. He said,
" I will not repeal this tax whilst there is any risk of a de-
ficit." I do not raise any old controversy, but I have shown
you on the figures that there is no risk of a deficit now. He
also said, "I will not repeal it when we are called on to
propose other:taxes equally odious ;" and I do not think I
am misrepresenting his speech when I say that his mean-
ing was—" I will not repeal the duty on paper if that re-
peal is to be purchased by the augmentation of the income
tax." I now invite the right hon. gentleman and the house
to concur in that repeal in conjunction, not with an aug-
mentation, but with the commencement of a diminution.
(Cheers.) When we consider the subject on its merits,
every man, I am sure, will admit the powerful considers..
tions that must concur in recommending the measure we
propose. There is the yet unredeemed pledge conveyed by
the resolution of this house. (Cheers.). There is the in-
creased and increasing difficulty of executing the law;
there is the conscientious and impartial declaration of the

department intrusted. with the duty of collecting the tax ;
there is the important fact that the repeal of this tax received

the sanction of a large majority of this house last year; and
though that majority dwindled on a subsequent occasion, it
dwindled only in the face of the fact that new demands for

public purposes had come into view, and it was obvious that

some new fiscal measures must be taken to supply the wants

r prodigality, but at the same time many an one who shares
that sentiment yet feels that it is demanded by public expe-
diency and public duty that we should endeavour to bring
about a movement forgrappling with the public expenditure.
I trust that that may be the case. For my own part, I say
that if this country will but steadily and constantly show
herself as wise in the use of her treasure as she is unequalled
in the production of her wealth and moderate in the exercise
of her strength, then we may well believe that England will
for many generations yet to come continue to hold her fore-
most position among the nations of the world. (Cheers.)
The right hon. gentleman concluded by putting into the
hands of the chairman a resolution to the effect that the
duty on foreign chicory should be doubled.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE, while bearing testimony to the
ability with which the right hon. gentleman had submitted
his financial statement to the house, observed that it clearly
proved he and those who in conjunction with him objected to
the Budget oflast year as not making sufficient provision for
the wants of the country were perfectly right in the opinion
which they then advanced. (Hear.) He might further re-
mark that when that Budget had been brought forward in
February the remission of the paper duty formed one of the
principal proposals of the right hon. gentleman, and that
the house in discussing its merits could not proceed on the
assumption that that impost would be continued, or that the
duty on spirits would be raised from Bs. to 10s. a gallon.
(Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman, therefore, was
not justified in supposing that the opposition which was
offered to his scheme last year was not based on a sound
basis, and he trusted the Committee would be so far warned
by the experience of ths past as to sift very narrowly the
proposals which, on behalf of the Government, had that
evening been subinitted to their notice. So far as the finan-
cial prospects of the present year were concerned, he under-
stood the right hon. gentleman to say that he expected the
loss to the revenue caused by the repeal cf the paper duty
and the remission of 11. in the pound of the income-tax
would be compensated by certain reductions in our military
and naval expenditure, but he seemed to forget that
£1,000,000 in the shape of Exchequer Bonds would be fall-
ing due in May, 1862, another million in the year follow-
ing, and, if he was not mistaken, a' third in the ensuing
year. Now, when it was taken into account that such was
the case, that we had been borrowing money for the pur-
pose of erecting fortifications, that we had been drawing
heavily on our balances, and that we had not yet ascer-
tained the full cost of the war with China, the house was
bound to weigh well the effect which the right hon. gentle-
man's scheme was calculated to have upon our financial
position for the next twelvemonths. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DODSON thought the right hon. gentleman would'
have pursued a more prudent course than he had adopted
if he had simply proposed either the reduction of the in-
come-tax by ld. in the pound, or the repeal of the paper
duty, and not both. If he had acted so, he would have been
in a position to remit the hop duty, and would have a
larger surplus in hand.
Mr. HADFIELD expressed his regret that no diminu-
tion was proposed by the Government of the duty on fire
insurance.
Mr. HENNESSY regretted that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had not proposed to equalise the duties on coffee
and chicory, though, at the same time, he thought the pro-
posal to increase the duty on chicory was a step in the right
direction. As long as the duty on chicory was lower than
that on coffee traders would be tempted to make an exces-
sive use of the former article ; whereas an equalisation of
the duties would at once benefit the trader, the consumer,
and the revenue.
Mr. P. URQUHART thought that the hon. baronet the
member for Stamford, in criticising the financial statement,
had not made due allowance for the unforeseen loss arising
from the bad harvest of last year. Former deficient harvests
had been followed either by loans or by increased taxation,
but the bid harvest of last year would, long be remembered
as having been followed by a remission of taxation.
Mr. GLYN had no doubt that the statement of the Chan-,
cellor of the Exchequer, which turned into a surplus what
all the world feared would be a serious deficiency, would
give satisfaction to the country. The proposed remissions
of taxation were precisely those which the country desired.
The reduction of the income-tax would be regarded as a
great boon, while the House of Commons was in some sense
bound to deal with the paper duty. (Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not able
to announce a further payment from Spain, and he regretted
still more that nothing seemed to be expected from the Go-
vernment of Greece. About three years ago a committee ap •
pointed to consider the subject reported that they saw no
reason why Greece should not resume payment to the three
guaranteeing Powers. Since that time the debt due to us
had not only not diminished, but had actually increased,
although the Government of Greece, so far from being in a
state of poverty, appeared both able and willing to spend
large sums of money in the purchase of war steamers.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. BALL believed that the agricultural interests had
suffered most from the bad harvest of last year, and yet the•
Chancellor of the Exchequer, while boasting of a surplus,
did not propose to touch the malt-tax, which was most op-
pressive in its nature. By requiring prompt payment of the
tax last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer had seriously
affected the manufacture of malt, and in fact had lost some-
thing like £BOO,OOO of revenue. He trusted the right hon.
gentleman would still consider the propriety of abolishing
the malt duty.
Mr. W. E WART, as an advocate for many years of the
repeal of the taxes on knowledge, begged to express the
pleasure he felt at the proposal of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to abolish the paper duty—a measure dictated
alike by good faith and policy. He did not entertain so
confident a hope as his right hon. friend that the light wines
of France would be largely consumed in this country, nor
could he coincide with his right hon. friend upon the pro-
priety of retaining the alcoholic test. It would be better
to admit the more alcoholic wines of France, which, if they
came in under a shilling duty, would sell in this country for
ls. a bottle. He regretted the size of the new coinage, and
should have preferred a copper coinage more resembling
that of France.
Mr. CAVE thought the country would be disappointed
to find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer continued the
very objectionable penny taxes which possessed the qualities
of giving the least return to the Exchequer and the greatest
trouble to the taxpayer. The public would also be sorry
that the reduction of the tea and sugar duties should be
postponed to the repeal of the paper duties. (Hear, hear.)
This was the best time for repealing these war duties, be-
cause there was now a great accumulation in the stock of
these necessaries of life to the poor man, and a reduction in
the duties would not go into the pocket of the importer, but
into the pocket of the consumer. The continued imposition
of these war duties was injurious to the revenue, becqhuse it
gave a premium upon adulteration. The price that the poor
man paid for French wine at 14s. a dozen was, that he had
to use sugar that would not sweeten his tea, and tea that
was too often adulterated.
Mr. J. EWART was glad to hear the Chancellor of the
Exchequer promise to reconsider thepenny duty on packages,
There was no tax more unpopular among the trading com-
munity.

interest, he could not help recollecting that by the tax of Is.
per quarter on corn they already enjoyed a virtual protec-
tion of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, which it would be well for
the community to abolish altogether.
Mr. LONG believed, if the Chancellor of the Excheqier
knew a little better the extremity of distress which the bad
harvest had inflicted, on a large and deserving portion of the
commu.nity in the agricultural districts, he would not have
smiled as he did when the hon. member for Cambridgeshire
suggested some measure for their relief. He should be glad
to obtain from him a practical expression of sympathy in the
repeal of the hop duty.
Sir J. PAXTON highly approved the repeal of the
paper duties. There was a large consumption of paper in
Coventry, and great advantage would arise from the remis-
sion of the duty among his constituents. He thought the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had very much understated
the productiveness of the revenue next year. There were
only two causes which could interfere with it—the possi-
bility of another bad harvest, which he trusted a kind Pro-
vidence would avert, and our being drifted into a war which
he hoped the good sense of the country would take care to
avoid.

Mr. BENTINCK did not participate in the surprise
which had been expressed by some of his hon. friends that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done nothing for the
agricultural interest. Since, in 1846, the right hon. gen-
tleman seceded from the party which was more particularly
connected with the agricultural interest, he had done his
best to show that, however great might be the zeal of the
convert, it was far exceeded by the bitterness of the apos-
tate. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for the West Riding
talked of a protection of between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000
as enjoyed by the agricultural interest, but he should like
to know whence it came, as the actual produce of the tax of
Is. per qr. on corn amounted to only £BOO,OOO. As the hon.
gentleman was disposed to open the question as to the
amount of protection enjoyed by the agricultural interest,
he begged to say that he believed it would be found that
the balance at present was greatly in favour of commercial
iradustry.
Mr. CROSSLEY explained that, if ls. per quarter were
levied on corn imported, the same duty 'should apply to all
corn grown, and then £2,000,000 would come in.
Mr. MALINS felt great satisfaction that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had been enabled to reduce the income
tax, and he took the reduction of ld. in the pound as an
earnest of the necessity of getting rid of it at the earliest
opportunity. From the pledge the right hon. gentleman
gave in 1853, that the tax should terminate in 1860, he was
bound to take it off at the earliest period. The advocates
of the repeal of the paper duty raised the (claptrap cry that
it was a tax on knowledge, but it was a duty very insigni-
ficant in amount. He admitted that there was at one time
a strong feeling in favour of the reduction of the duty in
that house, but the majority gradually dwindled down, till
at last it only amounted to nine. (Hear.) The country
would be suprised, after such a division, and after what had
occurred last year in another place, where a course was
pursued that gave the greatest satisfaction to the country,
at the decision which the Government had arrived at. The
Prime Minister came down to the house, after the bill for
the repeal of the paper duty- was thrown out in another
place, and expressed himself with great moderation on the
subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer took a different
view from him of the question, and spoke in strong terms,
and at least one of his colleagues participated in his views.
He (Mr. Malins) could understand, therefore, that there
had been a great contest between the right hen. gentleman
and some of his colleagues on the subject. The right hon.
gentleman seemed to have carried the day, and accordingly
the duty was to be taken of. At the same time, though he
regretted that tie right hon. gentleman had selected this
particular duty for remission instead of the hop duty, yet,
as he had done so, and as the remission of the paper duty
would get rid of a very troublesome question, he, for his
part, would offer no further opposition to it. (Laughter.)
He hoped, considering the troublesome nature of the ques-
tion, and that therepeal of the duty would be satisfactory
to a large proportion of the community, that the house
would not stand in opposition to the Government.
Mr. NORRIS said the hon. and learned member for
Wallingford spoke of the paper duty as a very insignificant
tax--but he wished to state that every time the hon. and
learned gentleman gave a sovereign to any education in-
stitution for the purchase of books 6s. Bd. of it--a sum with
which he was, no doubt, familiar—(a laugh)—went as a
tax to the Government. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acknow-
ledged the great candour with which hon. members had
spoken of his financial statement. He wished to say a word
or two to what had fallen from several hon. members, and
among others from the noble lord the member for Stamford.
The noble lord misunderstood some expressions that fell
from him on the subject of the expenditure of the country,
and said he had no right to discredit the estimates, for
which he was responsible. Now, he had made no reference
to the present estimates. (Hear.) He spoke of the great
expenditure of the country in the past, and deprecated
large and unnecessary expenditure in the future. He had
spoken, in short, retrospectively and prospectively. (Hear.)
No one would.be more ready than himself to acknowledge
that it would be cowardly and contemptible for a Minister,
especially a Minister of Finance, to attempt to shift from
himself the responsibility of the estimates passed under his
auspices ; and certainly he had no such intention. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Kendal had referred to the
' debt incurred by Greece to the thiee protecting Powers.
He wished to say on the point that Greece was now ready
to pay the sum of £12,000 a-year to this country as interest
on the loan. (Hear, hear.) Tho Commissioners who had
reported on the subject stated, if he recollected rightly, that
Greece was now able to discharge in full her obligations to
the three Powers, and he confessed he thought it would be
for the benefit of that country if she were to pay her debts
rather than apply the money to some purposes to which he
feared it was applied. (Hear, hear.) In accepting the
quota of £12,000 from Greece, he begged to say that that
implied no surrender of our right to demand at any proper
time a larger payment of the amount she owed us. (Hear,
hear.) The hon. member for Dumfries spoke of our new
copper coinage, and complained that it was not so small as
that of France, The difference between the copper coinage
of the two countries was, however, very small, and the
mixture of the metal was almost exactly the same in both.
He wished to state to the house what he regarded as a
rather curious circumstance. The Mint had been hard at
work for a considerable time, and up to the last account
sent to him about 30,000,000 of pieces of copper money
had been sent out ; but the Whole of that mass of copper
had been added to the circulation of the country with-
out a single old copper piece being returned. (Hear.)
As to the subject of the penny on packages inwards, his could not defend the charge as it now worked, and admitted
there was evidence of the trouble and inconvenience caused
by it. Whether those inconveniences could be removed or
not he would not now give an opinion ; but, if they could
not, it might be desirable, when Parliament had t'.ie means,
to reconsider that subject with a view to the remission of
the tax. With respect to the comparison that had been
made between the remission of the paper duties and that
upon tea and sugar, he must observe that, although those
were subjects in pari materia, they were not equal in ex-
tent of revenue. In giving up £670,000 upon paper, he
had given the extreme of what he thought was likely to be
the balance at his command, but the reduction of the duty
upon tea to Is. 2d. per lb., to say nothing of that upon
sugar, would, according to the estimates of the Customs,
entail a loss of £850,000. The hon. member for Norfolk
had made a remark which he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had heard without the least irritation, that he had
always been a bitter enemy to the agriculturists. But,
although he had not been angered by the observation, he
could not help feeling surprised that a member of Parlia-
ment should have made such a charge, especially as the
lapse of years might have been expected to allay all ex-
treme feelings, such as prevailed in former times. He
might differ from the hon. gentleman as to the best mode
of serving the agricultural interest, but he had a conscien-
tious belief that the removal of the paper duty would be of
the highest benefit to rural districts. (Hear, hear.) He
had been asked whether he had ever considered the possi-
bility of levying a penny tax upon railway tickets, which
one hon. gentleman seemed to think would prove a substi-
tute for the malt-tax and other duties. He had frequently
considered the subject, as he was daily receiving sugges-
tions of such a tax; but he could not see his way to deal
safely with them, and he could not but regard such a tax
as a most unjust one. (Hear, hear.) Even if it were
adopted it would not produce one. sixth of the present
amount of the malt duties. In conclusion, he thanked the
committee for the patient hearing it had accorded him, and
especially the hon. and learned member for Wallingford,
whose candid declaration would, he trusted, be the har-
binger of a harmonious settlement of a vexed question.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK assured the right hon. gentleman that
the remark which he had male, and to which the right
hon. gentleman had referred, was made without irritation
but when he expressed surprise that the lapse of time had
not allayed passions which existed at a particular time ho
adopted a singular and untenable ground. He (Mr. Ben-
tinck) had ventured to say that it was impossible to expect
anything favourable to the agricultural interest from the
right hon. gentleman, whose public and financial career
since the period alluded to had been one of unvaried hos-
tility towards that interest. (" No ►") Hon. gentlemen
might cry "No," but he would like them to justify their
denial by arguments.
Mr. CAIRD denied the right of the hon. gentleman to
constitute himself the sole representative of the agricultural
interest. As himself representing a constituency largelyin-
terested in agriculture, he felt bound to say that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, following up the policy of the late
Sir R. Peel, had done more to promote agricultural pros-
perity than any one else. (Hear.) Even taking the price of
corn as a test, if the prices for 10 years before the abolition
of the protective duties were compared with the prices for
10 years succeeding, it would be found that there had been
very little difference; but the real benefit to the agricultu-
ral interest bad been Vie enlargement of trade and the en-
couragenient of every other kind of agricultural produce,
which had led to the present state of prosperity among that
class. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BUTT reminded the committee that when a motion
was made, about 10 years ago, for a committee to inquire
into the subject of agricultural distress, the Chancellor of

Mr. B. OSBORNE—The Chancellor of the Exchequer is
such a great magician on these subjects that he must be a
bold man who would attempt to criticise him ; but this I
must do him the ju4tice to say, that when he talked of hav-
ing led us through a " wilderness of figures" it was nothing
but a garden of flowers. (A laugh.) lam rather amazed
at hearing the hon. member for Shoreham taking such
small exceptions to a great scheme. For myself, I have
always taken exception to the repeal of the paper duty
under the financial circumstances oe the country, and
never voted for it, but I think the right hon. gentleman
has acted with great wisdom in proposing to remove this
fruitful subject of controversy between the two houses and
in taking off the paper duty. (Hear, hear.) Under
other circumstances I should have preferred the reduc-
tion of the tea and sugar duties, but I cannot resist the
conviction that the paper duty was a moist dange-
rous subject to be left open after the course taken by
the other House of Parliament, and I congratulate the right
hon. gentleman on the great nerve and wisdom he has
shown in dealing with it. (Hear.) That penny on the in-
come-tax thrown to us country gentlemen will float his
budget. He has wrapped up the paper very well (a laugh),
and if the penny does not float the budget through, it will be
very unwise of us not to take ithe compromise he offtrs us.
I think, too, the right hon. gentleman has acted wisely in
placing these matters in one bill. (Hear, hear.) I, of course,
reserve my right to look into the details, and I admit I was
rather surprised to hear of this surplus. (Hear, hear,) I
expected rather to hear of an increase of the income-tax
than of a penny being taken off. Reserving my right to look
into these matters in the name of my constituents, I thank
the right hon. gentleman for his condemnation of the profli-
gate expenditure sanctioned by this house. (Cheers.) That
expression will do good service, not only in this house, but
also in the country.
Lord R. CECIL said he also wished to say a word about
this "profligate expenditure." Nothing would be more
calculated to injure the character of that house and of the
Government than if the right hon, gentleman persisted in
using language of this kind. (Hear, hear.) If any one was
responsible for the expenditure of the country it was the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. gentleman
was bound to protest in the Cabinet against any expenditure
that he believed to be profligate, and if his remonstrances
were not attended to it was his duty to carry out his views
in the manner usual to recalcitrant Ministers. if the right
hon. gentleman did net think proper to take this course he
was bound not to discredit the Estimates that he himself
moved. The right hon. gentleman was at present asking
the house to save him from the effect of his own measures.
A Minister ought not to sanction that which be did not
approve, and the Finance Minister ought least of all to say
he disapproved the way in which the finances of the coun-
try were carried on. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYKES hoped that the vexatious penny duty on
packages would be abolished.
Mr. HENEAGE believed that the reduction of the paper
duty would be very acceptable to his constituents.
Mr. CROSSLEY said that the hon. member for Cam-
bridgeshire (Mr. Ball) has spoken of the bad harvest and
the malt duty as if it were the agricultural interest, and not
the consumer, that paid the duty. Considering the diffi-
eulties that surrounded the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
he thought that the reductionof a penny on the income-tax
and the abolition of the paper duty would give satisfaction
to the country. When relief was asked for the agricultural