The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-07 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against the continuance
of the grant to Maynooth ; from different parts of Ireland
in favour of the Galway subsidy; for promoting the growth
of cotton in India; in favour of the Salmon Trout Fishery
Bill ; for an amendment of the Poor-law in Ireland;
against the abolition of church-rates; in favour of the
bill for the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages
in Ireland ; from certain schoolmasters in Yortcshire,
praying that the claims of the London University to repre-
sentation should be considered in the bill to be
.introduced
for the appropriation of scats in Parliament; against the
Parochial Assessment Bill, &c. •
REPORTS OF DEBATES IN THE HOUSE.

Mr. SCULLY gave notice that on going into committee
of supply he would move for a select committee to consider
the best means for obtaining more accurate and authorised
reports of debates in this house.
THE GAM% AY SUBSIDY.
In reply to Mr. WncrEstp,
Mr. GREGORY said that it was his intention to press
his motion for a select committee to inquire into the with-
drawal of the subsidy to the Galway Packet Company, and
to take the sense of the house on that subject.
THE POOR LAW BOARD.

Lord ASHLEY asked the President of the Poor Law
Board whether he would lay upon the table of the house
copy of any recent correspondence between the Poor Law
Board and any London or provincial Unions on the subject
of the removal of pauper children to the manufacturing dis-
tricts ?

Mr. VILLIERS said there was no objection to lay that
correspondence on the table.
KENSINGTON GARDENS.

Viscount ENFIELD asked the Chief Commissioner of
Works whether he intended, as was reported, to open a part
of Kensington Gardens for the use of equestrians; and, if
so, what portions of the gardens would be devoted to that
purpose ?
Mr. COWPER said that it was the wish of the Govern-

ment that the parks might be made a source of enjoyment
to the public as much as possible. With regard to the
ride in Kensington Gardens, he said he thought it would
be most desirable to open the ride this year, notwithstand-
ing, that there were some objections to that proceeding. In
the first place there was the fear of,fond mothers and timid
nurserymaids, arising from an apprehension of the want
of skilfulness on the part of equestrians—(laughter)—
but he had succeeded in making arrangements by which
borse,nen may have all the advantages of the ride without
crossing any frequented path. A complaint had been made
that the privacy of the gardens would be destroyed, but it
was impossible for him or any one else to secure privacy in
the parks of a metropolis which contained 3,000,000 of in-
habitants, and to which the public were admitted. He pro-
posed to admit equestrians through the gate under the dry
arch
on the southern side, and to open that entrance on the
next warm day.

RECOGNITION OF TIIE SOUTHERN
CONFEDERACY.
In reply to Mr. CRIUFORD,
motion of which he had given notice, as to the recognition
by the country of the confederated States of the Southern
States of America.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Government would not
oppose the bringing forward of that motion, but he con-
sidered it would be most nnadvisable.

CANADIAN VOLUNTEERS.
Lord STANLEY asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether it was true, as stated in the latest telegrams
from America, that a regiment of Canadian volunteers had
offered its services to the President of the United States to
assist in coercing the Southern States ; and that offer had
been accepted ; and what steps would be taken by her Ma-
jesty's Government to prevent such violation of neutrality ?

Lord J. RUSSELL said that no such report as that
alluded to had been received, nor had there been ry
com-
munication to the Government by those diplomatic agents
on the subject.
BOATS ON THE WATER IN REGENT'S PARK.
Lord W. GRAHAM asked the First Commistshioantebroaotsf
Works whether it was with his leave and sanction
were allowed to go on the ornamental water in Regent s-
park ; whether he was aware that considerable annoyance
had arisen to the families of owners of private gardens
which abut on the same, from persons landing on or lying
alongside of these gardens; and whether he intended to
take any steps to remedy the grievance complained of ?
Mr. COWPER said that last summer he had made
arrangements for allowing boats to ply on the ornamental
water. He had received remonstrances from those resident
at ono side of the water, who considered that their gardens
would be open to the invasion of the mob, and there was
another objection also. However, ho had not heard any
complaint of the misconduct of those who had availed
themselves of the privilege offered them, with the exception
of o.e instance of incivility of a young man on one occa-
sion. it was most desirable that clerks and those engaged
in sedentary -ocupations daring the day should have the
advantage of rowu.e, on this water. (Hear, hear.)
THE E AS". INDIA BILLS.
On the motion of Sir C. 11, the other orders of the
day were postponed to enable the
to proceed with
these bills without, delay.
THE EAST INDIA COUNCIL, 4.1:c.,
Sir C. WOOD then rose to move for leave to introduce
the following bills : bill to amend, in certain respects, the
constitution of the council of the Govern&-General of India,
and to authorise making laws and regulations for the presi-
dencies of Fort St. George and Bombay, and for other parts
of her Majesty's Indian territories ; bill for establishing
High Courts of Judicature in India; bill to confirm certain
appointments in India, and to amend the law concerning the
vil Service. The right hon. gentleman said these measures
were of the greatest possible importance to our Indian em-
pire, and he introduced them with feelings of the deepest
responsibility, The power of legislatizzg for some 150 millions

of people was a matter of the utmost importance and diffi •
-
culty. They had to legislate for people of different races, of
different languages, of different religions, and of different
manners and customs, for the bigoted and fierce IV ahome-
dan, and for the timid Hindoo, as well as the energetic, en •
terprising, and proud Englishman. The settlement of re-
lations between the more and less highly civilised races of
mankind must always be attended with great difficulty. In
former t" rues there was no feeling of jealousy or antagonism
existing between the native and the English population of
India, but a feeling of that kind had since sprung up, and it
would be folly to shut our eyes to the difficulty of our posi-
tion arising from it, or to neglect to take the earliest mea-
sures to obviate them. One of the oldest of our Indian ser-
vants, who for 16 years had been intimately connected with
natives of all classes, only a few months before his death
deplored the difficulty he had had in forming a sufficient
acquaintance with their feelings and opinions; and yet
it was essential that those feelings and opinions
should be carefully considered. It had formerly been
supposed that the land system which had been estab-
lished in the north-west provinces o? the empire was the
most perfect that could be devised, and that system had
been applied to the newly-acquired province of Oude ; but
after the rebellion the Government had reverted to the old
system in force previous to the annexation, and with the
most happy results. At the interview between Lord Can-
ning and the talookdars of that province they expressed
their gratitude for the restoration of the old system, and the
Governor-General expressed his gratification at the tran-
quillity and prosperity of the district. The measure he pro-
posed to introduce would effect a small change in the exe-
cutive government of India. Two years ago the Govern-
merit sent out a distinguished member of this house, Mr.
Wilson, to endeavour to place the finances of India in a
more satisfactory condition. He believed the changes which
Mr. Wilson had the opportunity of inaugurating had con-
vinced the authorities of India of the mistaken way in
which they had proceeded, and had laid the foundation of
a sounder system of finance in future; and, judging by the
accounts they had received by the late mail, he thought
they had reason to hope that they had turned the corner,
and were arriving at a more satisfactory state of things than
had prevailed in that respect for some years. No doubt the
absence from the Council of India of any member acquainted
with the principles of jurisprudence had been a serious evil.
The greater portion of the bills submitted for consideration
were necessarily prepared by Government, and they had
been obliged to call on the Advocate-General and others to
assist in the framing of those laws ; and hon. gentlemen
would see by the despatches from Lord Canning which
were delivered into the hands of members yesterday that he
pointed out what a great advantage it would be to the exe-
cutive government and the members of the Legislative
Council if a jurist, rather than a mere practising lawyer,
were sent out to India to assist the Government in the pre-
paration of these measures. He proposed, therefore, to take
power to send out an additional member of council. It was
not essential that he should be a lawyer, but the intention
waste send out from this country a lawyer for the purpose
of enabling the Government of India to prepare these mea-
sures for the consideration of the Council. The main
change which he had to propose was, as to the body by
which laws and regulations were enacted. The history of
the legislative power in India was very short, but the house
ought to know it before they considered how it should
be changed. In 1773 the Governor-General in Council was
empowered to make regulations for the government of the
provinces of India. In 1793 those regulations were collected
into a code by Lord Cornwallis, promulgated and issued ;
and it was from that date from which they might say there
was a code of regulations by which India was governed.
From about 1780 to 1801 similar regulations were enacted
for Madras and Bombay, and in 1883 they were applied to
the north-western provinces. Soon after that, Delhi, which
was nominally under the sovereignty of the Emperor of
India, was nevertheless administered by a servant of the
Government of India, and that administration succeeded so
well that when, in 1815, Lord Hastings acquired some new
provinces he determined that they should be administered
in the same way by a committee appointed by the Govern.
ment ; and in subsequent years the same system has been
applied to the various acquisitions which have been made in
India subsequent to that date. For instance, the Punjaub,
Scinde, Pegu and Berar, and Nagpore have been subse-
quently acquired. The laws and regulations under which
they are administered have been either passed by the Go-
vernor-General in Council or the Lieutenant-Governor, or
by the commissioner of the province, as the case might be,
and approved of by the Governor-General ; and that consti-
tutes the distinction which they had often heard in Indian
matters between the regulation provinces and the non-regu-
lation provinces, the regulation provinces being those which
were subject to the old regulations, and the non-regulation
provinces being those which were administered by the
somewhat irregular mode which he had mentioned, and
which dated from 1815. Now, no doubt there was great
question as to the legality of this course, and in many re-
spects the difference did not exist practically. The question
had been raised in the Legislative Council. Sir B. Peacock
had given it as his opinion that even in the non-regulation
provinces the orders of the Governor-General were of no
effect, and that in order to make them legal the interference
of the Legislative Council in India must be called in.
Therefore, in effect, prior to 1833, the Executive Govern-
ment was also the body which passed laws for the regula •
tion of India. In 1833, however, the act passed which
added to the Governor-General's Council a member whose
presence was necessary on the passing of all legislative
measures, and which put the whole of their territory of
India under that body. At the same time it withdrew from
Madras and Bombay the power of making regulations for
themselves which they had possessed up to that time. In
fact that act centralised in the Governor-General and his
council in India the whole legislative power of India. Since
that time some provinces had been acquired which were
still considered as non-regulation provinces, but it was not
worth while going into minute points which did not affect
the general result. So the matter stood till 1853. Great
complaints had been made by the other parts of India that
they were all subject to legislation at Bengal. The practice
at that time had not been introduced,which he still thought
had since prevailed with the greatest advantage, of placing
in the Governor-General's council members from the other
parts of India,and the whole tenor of the evidence which was
given before the committee of 1852-3 went to point out that
the executive council, even assisted by the legal members,
was incompetent to the increased ditties which were de-
manded of them in consequence of the great extension of
territory and other matters brought before them. Mr.
M'Leod, a distinguished member of the civil service of India,
in his evidence, stated that in his opinion the Governor-
General and the four members of council were incompetent,
and that the council ought to be enlarged by the addition of
members from the minor presidencies. Mr. Hill, also a mem-
ber of the civil service in India, who had had opportunities,
both in Madras and Calcutta, of forming a very sound opi-
nion, gave evidence to a like effect. In consequence of the
evidence given at that time he framed the measure of 1853,
which added to the Governor- General's council when it sat
for the purpose of making laws a member from the different
provinces of India, and also the Chief Justice and one of the
other judges of the Supreme Court of Bengal He conceived,
and by these means he had obtained a great desideratum,
that of giving to the Governor-General in council, when
sitting for the purpose of making laws, the advantage of
local knowledge of the different parts of India, and of the
legal knowledge of the Chief Justice and of another judge.
Now, certainly his intention was simply to give to the At-
torney- General assistance in passing laws, and not what the
council of the liovernor-General had since become, some-
what a debating society and a petty Parliament. He
could not better express that than by quoting a short ex

tract of a letter which he addressed to Lord Dalhousie at
the time. " I expect that thO non-official members of your
Legislative Council will be constantly employed as a com-
mittee of council to be employed in framing laws and regu-
lations." It was a great mistake of the Governor-General
that he established his council, the number of which con-
sisted of not more than 12 members, with all the powers of
a Parliament, the effect of which was to impede business,
to cause delay, and to induce the council, which ought to
h tmatiet .Inen sitting as a committee doing the work, to imi-
a the functionsoneof athned
lceltatiemrs,thhoewperveerro,gawtihivecshof
wasa Pamarolinag-
the papers laid on the table of the house, it was stated
that the enlargement of the council had been the
means of improving
respect the enlargement
ofe tlheeg icsol
ua tni
co
in. , l
h aandh e
etnh
aa t
oimn
ptlhe at
et
success. He thought that was a satisfactory proof that so
far, certainly, as he intended, and as he believed, the legis-
latureGeneral'
t io n
of otfhthis
ocvo
eurantoriy.
, the object of the composi-
ET:do, sittingwptetenlyfu lfulfilled,
et ot
legislative purposes, had boon
But when the Council went beyond that it certainly certainly did not
General's c •
country. In en-
meet with approval either in India or this
deavouring to constitute itself into a body thre
griev-
ances, to make motions, and so on, the Councidlrehadss
gone
beyond its powers. The Vice-President of the Legislative
what
t
Council, in a short memorandum, pointed out exactly h
a Legislative Council ought to be. In that memorandumhe
said—" It has no jurisdiction in the nature of those of a
grand inquest of the nation. Its functions are purely legis-
lative, and limited even as a purely legislative body. It is
not an Anglo-Indian House of Parliament to redress griev-
ances and to refuse supplies." That being so, the obvious
objection to this course of proceeding on the part of the
Council was pointed out by the Government of India last
year, and it had been his intention in the course of last year
to have introduced a measure on this subject. He felt, how-
ever, great difficulty in deciding in what shape the new
measure should be framed. Lord Canning, however, was
very anxious that the measure should be passed, and in-
deed he consented to defer his departure from India in order
that an opportunity might be afforded of passing it during
the present session, and that he, with the advantage of his

Long experience in India, might be the first to introduce

change. The question, of course, arose, in what man-
ner any. -OW extent an alteration should be made, and
they had to c0n5,,...
two extreme notions which pre-
vailed in India on the suuj.—
rile notion of a native of
India on legislation was that the 60...
'-n alone should
enact the laws. He had little or no notion of
don between the legislative and the executive power.
native chief would hear the advice of his council in durbar,
as it was called. He informed himself by that communica-
tion, and then himself determined what should be done.
Various proposals had been made. One was that the power
of legislation should rest entirely with the Exoe.Attive Qv-

vernment, and the.'t there should be a consultative body;
the other was that tr.\
e Governor-General should assemble
from time to time a cone
iderable number of persons whose
opinions he should hear,
but which opinion, however, he
should not be guided by, but that, after having heard those
opinions, he should determiarte what should be done. He
believed that in the last .session of Parliament, Lord Ellen-
borough proposed to the house of Lords some such scheme.
Now,
the house would see in the despatches from Lord Can-
ning that it was quite impooible, in the present state of feel-
ing in India, to revert to that state of things in which the
Executive Government alone should legislate for India. The
opposite extreme notion was that which was naturally en-
tertained in this country, and by Englishmen abroad, that
there should be a representative body to aid in passing the
laws. Now, he was quite sure that any one who understood
the condition of India would see that a representative body
in the propersense of the word was utterlyunsuited to India.
They could not possibly have a representation of the natives
from all parts of India. They could not have a body who,
in any sense of the word, represented the various classes and
populations of India meeting in any one place. If they
diminished the area over which legislation was to extend,
they would diminish the difficulty. They had in Ceylon a
legislative body consisting partly of Englishmen and partly
of natives, and he did not know that the experiment was, on
the whole, unsuccessful there. But hon. members must
remember that the whole of Ceylon was not larger than a
large collectorate in India, and it might be worked in a
small compass. Then, if they looked at the natives in the
presidency towns, they did rot in the slightest degree
represent the population of the other parts of India.
It would be as reasonable to suppose that the highly-
educated people of Lendon at the present period would be
represented by a highland chief, or a feudal baron of
six centuries ago. To look, therefore, for a repre-
sentation of the native population was to look for that
which was simply impossible. Then came the question to
what extent should they allow a representation of the Eng-
lish settled there. No doubt that would be possible, so far
as representing their opinions, their views, and their inte-
rests went. But it would not be a body representing India
or the great overwhelming interests of the population of
India, and he must say that of all governing bodies or
legislative bodies, none was so dangerous and so mischiev-
ous as a representative body consisting of a dominant race
ruling over an extensive population. All experience taught
us that the rule of a dominant race was not the mildest of
rules. It had been so, he believed, at all times and in every
part of the world. In Mr. John Stuart Mill's work on re •
presentative government he said, "Now, if there be a fact
to which all experience testifies, it is that when a country
holds another in subjection, the individuals of the ruling
people who resort to that foreign country to make their for-
tune are of all others those who ought to be held in restraint.
They are always one of the chief difficulties of the Govern-
ment. Armed with a prestige and filled with a scornful
disdain of the conquered people, they have every feeling
inspired by absolute power, without the sense of responsi •
bility." He quoted that, not because he agreed in it to the
full extent—he thought it exaggerated, but it did to some
extent represent the position of the English in India. They
must remember that the natives did Rot distinguish be-
tween the acts of the Government itself and the acts of
those who were in their eye the Government, namely, the
Legislative Council, and Lord Canning pointed out that
evils had arisen from that source. He said as regarded the
English public publicity had been very useful, but as re-
garded the natives injury had arisen. Now, if they (the
Government) did not take away the publicity they must at
least take care that the legislation was not in accordance
with the language used there, tending to excite serious
discontent, fear, and apprehension in the native mind.
He wished to strengthen the hands of the Indian Govern-
ment, and to enable it not only by a veto to prevent the
passing of bills into law, but to negative the very introduc-
tion of measures calculated to produce discontent amongst
the people. The measures which he had introduced in 1553
had been much changed in their way through Parliament,
and they had since seen the mischief of the alterations. He
was anxious, therefore, to avoid, as far as possible, any
misconstruction of the powers which they intended to con-
fer on the Indian Government. If it was found that they
had done too little, it would be easy to go farther; but, if
they did too much, they would find it difficult to retrace
their steps. The despatches of Lord Canning contained
the scheme with the noble lord recommended, and the pre-
sent bill had been drawn for the purpose of carrying out
that scheme as nearly as might be. He proposed that when
the Governor-General's council met for the purpose of
making laws or regulations, the Governor-General should
summon, in addition to the ordinary number of council-
lors, not less than six nor more than twelve additional
members, of whom one half should Rot hold office under
the Government, and these additional members might
be either Europeans, or persons of English extraction, or
natives. Lord Canning strongly recommended that the
council should be held at different places from time to time,
in order that the Governor-General might have the advan-
tage of obtaining the assistance of the various native chiefs.
He did not propose to preclude him from summoning one of
the judges, whom he considered useful members of a body,
meeting to discuss the law, but he thought it would be as
inexpedient in India as at home that they should become
members of a body partaking in any measure of a popular
character. He proposed that the persons nominated in the
way he had described should attend for a year only ; for it
would be easy for native princes at a distance to come for
one year who might naturally object to attend for two or
three. Hon. members had no doubt seen an account of the
meeting between Lord Canning and the Talookdars, and the
great success which had attended the plan of obtaining the
assistance of native princes. (Hear, hear.) The same thing
had been done in the Punjaub, where executive powers had
been given to the sirdars ; and he believed that still greater
benefit would be derived from allowing them to take part
in the Legislative Council of the Governor-General. They
would no longer feel that they were excluded from all con-
cern in the government of their own country ; and nothing,
therefore, would tend so much, in his opinion, to conciliate
the goodwill of the native princes of high rank. (Hear.)
It was not his wish that the council should degenerate at
all into a debating society—he wished it to be essentially a
law-making body. (Hear, hear.) It would have power to
pass laws and regulations for the whole of India, and it
would have supreme and concurrent power with the minor
legislative bodies which he proposed also to establish in the
presidencies and other parts of India. Lord Canning was
strongly of opinion that though it was beneficial to intro-
duce persons having local knowledge of the affairs of the
north-west provinces, of Madras, and of Bombay into the
Legislative Council yet the advantage was not strong enough
to overcome, first, the feeling that they had in other parts of
India about being over-ridden by the Bengal Council; and,
secondly, the disadvantage of having persons legislating
without any acquaintance with their local wants, for dif-
ferent districts from those in which they resided. lie pro-
posed, therefore, to restore to the presidencies of Madras
and Bombay the power of passing laws and enactments on
local subjects. He proposed to direct the governors of the
provinces to nominate a certain number;of additional mem-
bers for their councils, one half of them not to hold office,
and to be either Europeans or natives. There were many
subjects which were not local, but with which the local
councils could best deal, but they ought to have the sanction
of the Governor-General before those councils interfered
with them. A similar council would be established in Ben-
gal, and if the Governor-General thought it right he would
be empowered, with the sanction of the Secretary of State,
to establish councils likewise in the north-west pro-
vinces, in the Punjaub, and in other parts of
India where they might be thought desirable.
It had been suggested that the provinces of Pegu might also
have a council. He (Sir C. Wood) somewhat doubted
whether they were yet quite ripe for that purpose ; but

they formed a separate province, and at the proper time
they might with advantage have their own council. He
hoped that by these provisions they would attain a general
uniformity of legislation throughout India, and at the same
time apply that legislation to the peculiar wants of each
province. It was quite clear that the public works would
be better dealt with by local than by general legislation;
while on the other hand the management of the revenue and
of the army must necessarily be left in the hands of the
central Government. It would not now be necessary to go
into the details of the bill. Its earlier clauses were rather
consolidatory than otherwise, while the later ones
were alterative. He proposed to give the Governor-General
power in cases of emergency to issue orders which should
have the force of law for six months, unless they were in
the meantime disallowed by an act of the legislative body.
He proposed also that the senior governor of the presi-
dencies should take upon himself the powers of the
Governor-General in case of a vacancy occurring before the
appointment of a successor. The bill had had the en-
tire concurrence of the Government of India, and of almost
all those persons with whom he had conversed on the sub-
ject. He submitted it to the house in the hope that it would

tend not only to the better government of India, but to the
happiness and prosperity both of those who went thither
from this country and of the countless myriads of her
Majesty's native subjects in that portion of her empire.
gfurialnyt
approved the
o
Mr. H. SEYMOUR hoped that the right hon. gentleman
would not press on the bill with too great rapidity, but would
sufficientfte adleisure a
features
reexsaomf itnhee its
measure—thedetai l
s. He
establishment of local legislatures and the introduction of
independent members.

Colonel SYKES also approvedwhich
of the establishment of
thought would enable the
country to be governed with morertegoars regard to the wants and
which
tenderly, if we
h
r d be.
feelings of the people. Certainly h
re-
quire to be dealt with very carefully ande feelings would
wished to ensure a return of the loyalty
fore the late mutiny. With regard to the land prevailed
question,r
two systems had already broken down--the twa
cause the Government had endeavoured to settle with every
e-
b
native annually; and the other in consequence of the i;
chievous practice of selling up old families. He also hoped
that the Government would allow the house sufficient time

to study the details of the bill.
Mr. DUNLOP said there were two interests which espe-
cially required representation, the trade and the agriculture
^, India, and he believed that that would be best attained
by tn. --nbination of local with central government.
Lord Canning has vt.,
Ailfully laid down the distinetLWl
between the two ; and he (the hon. member) gave his cor-
which carried out the views of dial support to the bill,the
noble lerd. He believed, Itemer, tjacr,44 of origiaginff

the plan was due to the hon. member for Birmingham (Mr.
Bright), who had suggested it many years ago. (Hear,)
Mr. HADFIELD approved of the bill, and urged the
subject of contracts on the attention of the right hon. gen-
tleman.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
EAST INDIA HIGH COURTS OF JUDICATURE.
Sir C. WOOD moved for leave to bring in a bill for esta-
blishing high courts of judicature. The object of the mea-
sure was the formation of one court instead of the two that
were at present at the head of the different systems of law
administered in India. One of those was presided over by
two Queen's judges, who had jurisdiction in the presidents'
towns over civil matters, and they also exercised criminal
jurisdiction in important matters over Europeans in every
part of India. There was at the same time the Suddur Court
of Appeal, which reviewed decisions from all parts of the
country, and discharged also to some extent the supposed
functions of a minister of justice. A very strong opinion had
been expressed by the commissioners that it would contri-
bute greatly to the better administration of justice in India
if the two courts, the Supreme Court and the Suddur Court,
could be consolidated, combining at once the legal know-
ledge of the lawyers constituting the former with the ac-
quaintance with local habits and customs possessed by
members of the Suddur Court. He (Sir C. Wood) had at first
been very anxious to ask her Majesty's Government to issue
a charter for the purpose of effecting this consolidation, but
it was found impracticable without putting in force cer-
tain new forms of proceeding, which rendered it necessary
that a bill should be introduced for the purpose. The
royal commission which was issued on this question com-
prised the present Master of the Rolls, the late Sir J.
Jervis, Sir Edward Ryan, Mr. Kinnaird, Mr. M'Leod, a
Madras civil servant of great experience; the late Mr, Ellis,
an accomplished reporter of legal cases in this country ; the
right hon. gentleman now the Vice-President of the Board
of Education, and Mr. Hawkins, who had been one of the
judges of the Suddur Court. The results of the labours of this
commission were most important. They had devised forms
of civil and criminal procedure. With regard to the criminal
code, the system which had been drawn up by Lord
Macaulay had been subject to repeated revision, and the
new system would be brought into operation on the Ist
January next, after which date he believed that the natives
of India would possess a system of criminal jurisprudence
unrivalled for simplicity and comprehensiveness. New forms
of civil procedure had also been devised, which were already
in use, and which considerably shortened the time and dimi-
nished the expenses of litigation. A civil code of laws was
not yet prepared, but was under consideration. In the new
court it was proposed that amongst the judges there should
be a certain proportion of banisters and advocates of the
Scottish bar, and also a certain proportion of the civil ser-
vants of the crown, and of barristers practising in the na-
tive courts. It was also proposed to admit natives of India
to the judicial bench; and the omission which had been
made in this respect in the first instance had been since re-
medied. It would also be competent to the Governor-
General to send the judges on circuit; and thus the evil in
every case of a crime committed by an Englishman of
having the prisoner sent to Calcutta--which amounted v:r-
tually to a denial of justice—would be avoided. By these
means he trusted that the character of the English nation
for impartiality and justice would be maintained, whilst
the natives of India would be secured the advantages
arising from their own institutions.
Leave was given to introduce the bill.
EAST INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE).
Sir C. WOOD then rose to ask leave to introduce the
third bill of which he had given notice, viz., a bill to con-
firm certain appointments in India, and to amend the law
concerning the civil service there. lie thought that the
interests of the civil servants would not be seriously, if at
all, affected by this proposed measure, and that the benefits
it would secure would outweigh all its imaginary evils.
The object of the bill was to legalise certain appointments
which had for 50 years past been made in India contrary to
law, to render such appointments legal for the future, and to
provide that in certain exceptional cases appointments might
be made notwithstanding the restrictions imposed by the old
statute law. In the year 1793 an act was passed, he believed
with a view to prevent jobbing—(a laugh)—which provided
that all vacancies in the civil service of India should be filled
up and supplied from amongst the civil servants of the Go-
vernment. The Government of India soon found it impos-
sible to adhere to this provision. They had thenceforth for
years, with the sanction of the board of directors, constantly
violated the letter of the law, so that one-third at least of
the civil appointments in India had been filled up by per-
sons who were not /civil servants of the Crown at the time.
According to the law, all civil appointments under the
Government of India could be held by covenanted servants
alone. So that all Englishmen born in India, uncovenanted
civil servants, and natives who held appointments in the
civil service, held them illegally. With regard to military
men and others, the Indian Government never thought
they were bound by this regulation. Perhaps there never
was a more able administrator than Sir Henry Lawrence.
(Hear, hear.) That great authority was of opinion that
justice and expediency demanded that military men of
experience should receive the same ameunt of salary
when employed upon civil or military duties. It was
held, also, that there should be a sprinkling of military
men among the civilians, especially in the non• regulation
provinces; such appointments being made after the appli-
action of teats as to efficiency. It was contended that such
a fusion would strengthen the Government and improve the
tone of the service. The general way in which the Govern-
ment of India dealt with this question was not by appoint-
ing uncovenanted persons to covenanted places, but by
abolishing covenanted offices and creating new ones which
uncovenanted servants might fill. The restrictive law had
been disregarded to this extent, that there were 316 unco-
venanted servants appointed as deputy-collectors, against
64 covenanted. The judicial appointments were made on
the same principle, a new class of judges having been ap-
pointed who exercised a jurisdiction in many cases larger
than that exercised by the judicial covenanted servants in
former days. He now came to the last case, in which the
Government of India authoritatively and distinctly ap-
pointed uncovenanted men as officers in the presidencies.
The two military secretaries and their assistants were now
uncovenanted servants. In Lord Cornwallis's time the secre-
tary, assistant-secretary, and eight assistants, were all
covenanted. Now, the secretary and assistant-secretary
were covenanted, and the eight assistants were uncove-
nanted. Undoubtedly all these appointments had been
illegally made, but the necessity of the case justified them.
A short time ago Mr. Halliday, the lord-lieutenant of Ben-
gal, appointed an =covenanted servant to exercise the
functions of the Sadder judge during the absence of that
functionary, but that appointment was objected to; also, a
short time ago the government of Bombay appointed as col-
lector of land revenue an uncovenanted servant. The ap-
pointment was questioned in Bombay, but it was con-
firmed by the board of directors. Both appointments were
contrary to law but justified by necessity, and the Indian
Government, so far from deserving condemnation, merited
approbation for providing for the administration of justice
by the appointment of these uncovenanted ser-
vants. Lord Elphinstone, Lord Auckland, Lord Dal-
housie, Sir George Clerk, and Lord Hardinge, all per-
sons of great importance and authorities of dis-
tinction, who had governed either the whole or parts of
India, had all arrived at the same conclusion as to the policy
of these appointments, as attracting the native population
to our rule and opening the way to their appointment to
high offices. The present feeling of the government of India
was in favour of the opening of district courts, the judges
of which should be uncovenanted, both European and
native, but such appointments would, strictly speaking, be
illegal. Lord Canning was of opinion that natives who had
held judicial appointments might be appointed to the highest
judicial offices. What had occurred in the case of an un-
covenanted European ? Owing to the serious illness of
European members of his council, Lord Canning required
to fill the place of his Foreign Secretary, and he wrote
home, suggesting that Colonel Durand—a member of his
(Sir C. Wood's) council and a very eminent soldier—should
go out and take that post. Colonel Durand, at great per

sonal sam ifico to himself, responded to that call, and ex.

pressed his readiness to go ; but the appointment could no

really be made. Lord Canning wrote that there was no
better qualified person in India than Colonel Durand. This
was an exceptional case under special circumstances, and ho
thought Lord Canning ought to be invested with power to
deal with it. This happened within the last fortnight, and

it showed the absolute necessity for the course which he
proposed to pursue. His noble friend who preceded him in
his present office had become aware of the difficulty of the

legal question with which he proposed to deal, and had left
records of his opinion in favour of such a measure as that
which he now asked leave to introduce. The bill would

contain three clauses, the object of the first was to legalise

all those appointments which had been made within the
last few years, and which were at present contrary to law.
But he proposed to go a step further, and to meet _ such a

case as that of Colonel Durand. He had no notion of break-

ing down the civil line, and his views were very much mis-

apprehended if it were supposed that he contemplated any.

thing injurious to the civil service. But of course the unco-

venanted servants felt it as a degradation and a stigma that

they were excluded from the higher offices, and it was

unfair that a man should be called upon to perform respon-
sible duties without the chance of promotion which was

open to others. The permission of native servants to rise
to the higher appointments was recommended upon the

grounds that it would stimulate the exertions of both
classes, and would make the natives more honest, byshow-

ing that their honesty was trusted in; and he believed that
with d'ie precautions against the power being abused, it

would be most beneficial to the public service that such a
privilege should be conferred. The uncovenantod servants
_ _

in their memorial asked only that the supreme and local
governments should have the power to promote uncovo-

nanted servants, who had passedthrougha certain term of
service, to office now open only to covenanted servants.

This was entirely his opinion, and he did not think that
any damage could be done to the servicto by conferring the
boon for wbich the petitioners prayed. It was at the present
moment by no means the rule that covenanted servants
alone possessed the qualifications for the very highest posts
in the administra.tion. A covenanted servant mentioned to
him the other day that a friend of his, an uncovenanted
servant, was up to a recent time employed in an °face at
Calej,upa at a;.19-4, of £4OO a year, and that he ceAld notlegally be pyomoted,
se that one 'young civilian after another
rose over him yet, such
were his merits that when the

other day some employment out of the regular course was
open this man was appointed to the office at a salary of
£1,200 a year. Of course there were many covenanted ser-
vants who did not like bringing in the uncovenanted, but
after full discussion the measures which he submitted to
the house had met with the general concurrence of his
council, and he thought the course they had taken was very
creditable and honourable to them. He would tell the house
exactly how he proposed to deal with the case. He proposed
that when any authority in India should think it desirable
under the special circumstances of the case that such an
appointment should be made without regard to precedents,
he should have authority to make the appointment, subject
to such regulations as might from time to time be made in
that behalf by the Secretary of State in Council ; but that
such appointment should be provisional only, and that it
should be so reported forthwith to the Secretary of State in
Council, with the special reasons for making it, and that
if the approval of the Secretary of State, concurred in by
a majority of the council, were not received within a
year, the appointment should be void. The same
regulations as now applied to covenanted ser-
vants would be employed in these cases ; the person so
appointed must have resided in India seven years, must
have passed in the language of the district in which he
would be called upon to serve, and must, in fact, have satis-
fied the same test and qualifications as a covenanted ser-
vant, and with these safeguards he thought that no abuse
of the power could take place, and that they would be pro-
viding for what was a necessity of the public service, and
in such a way that covenanted servants could not complain.
With these explanations he begged to move for leave to
bring in a bill.
Mr. WHITESIDE said he had been requested to men-
tion what the objections of the covenanted servants to the
measure were, but he believed that the statement of the
right hon. gentleman would tend greatly to remove those
objections. They had understood that the offices which were
formerly held by covenanted servants were to be held in
future by other persons, and even excluding covenanted
servants from some of the higher branches of the service.
But it appeared from the explanation of the right hon. gen-
tleman that nothing of the kind was contemplated, and
that nothing could be done in regard to these appointments
without the approval of the Secretary of State and the
council.
Mr. AYRTON believed that the act of 1793 was framed
to prevent jobbing, and that from that day to this the ne-
cessity for its provisions had continued to exist; and he
believed, moreover, that there was just as much necessity for
maintaining its principle at the present day as there was
when it was framed.
Lord STANLEY said the house could not be too vigilant
and cautious in considering a measure which, for good or
evil, would have an important influence on the future wel-
fare of India. He wished to express his own opinion of the
measure of his right hon. friend, because from the part he
had taken in the regulating of the civil service, he felt
bound to take upon himself a share of the responsibility.
Shortly after the tranfer of the government of India to the
Crown, this question of a compromise between the cove-
nanted and uncovenanted services of India was brought
under his notice, and after examining into it he came to the
conclusion that it was impossible to maintain the system as
it had hitherto been maintained. Doubts had been ex-
pressed as to the legality of past appointments, so that it was
felt no time should be lost in removing those doubts. He
believed that a return to the law of 1793 was impos-
sible, in consequence of the great number of appointments
which had been made since then, the increase of expense to
which such a return would give rise, and the feeling that
would be excited in India. The only practical and impor-
tant question for the house to consider was whether it would
admit persons who were not members of the covenanted
service to appointments from which up to the present time
they were excluded. There were three different opinions on
this point. One class of persons were of opinion that the
exclusive privileges should be maintained ; others thought
that there was no necessity for any exclusive rights or pri-
vileges. The third opinion, that which was carried out in
the present bill, was one between the two others, namely,
that the civil servants ought to retain their present rights
and privileges, but that an opportunity should be given to
men who had not been brought up in the service to enter
it. 'With regard to the first view, he considered it simply
impossible to carry it out; with regard to the second, it
would produce great evil in India. Upon the whole, there-
fore, he believed that the mode proposed by his right hon.
friend was the best for dealing with the difficulty. There
were two dangers to be avoided. One was the danger of so
diminishing the rewards of the civil service that men of in-
telligence, ability, and good position in life would no longer
be induced to enter it. The other and the more pressing
danger was lest the Governor-General and other high
authorities of India should have the opportunity of intro-
ducing their own friends and dependents into the service.
Against that danger they could not be too cautious. He
thought the securities taken by the bill would be effectual
for this purpose. The term of residence required was so long
as to make it impossible that the Governor-General should
have the opportunity of introducing his own friends and
dependents into the civil service, and it was not likely that
he should show undue favour to those of his predecessor.
Then, the knowledge of language was a security, though in
a lesser degree. These securities were so important that in
his opinioa they ought to be inserted in the bill, and not
made the subject of separate regulations, which might be
evaded. (Hear.) There was also this third security, which
in his opinion was the most effective of all—that the ap-
pointment should be confirmed by the Secretary of State
for India and the Council. If an appointment was made in
India which had something of nepotism in it, it was not
likely that the Secretary of State or the Council of India, a
majority of whom belonged to the civil and military ser-
vices of India, would so far sympathise with the person
making it as to confirm such an appointment. These were
as strong securities against the abuse of patronage as could
be taken. They were stronger than any they had at home.
Under ordinary circumstances he would have postponed
expressing his own opinion till the second reading; but as
he felt almost as responsible as his right hon. friend for the
general character of the measure, he thought it only fair
that he should take the earliest opportunity of stating what
his views were. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel SYK ES said that the present measure was a bill
of indemnity after a practical breach of the law for 68 years.
The bill of 1793 was brought 'in to prevent jobbing, and
they could not take too many securities against such a re-
sult. When new territories were conquered persons outside
the civil service had necessarily to be appointed to perform
the duty of administration. They did so for half the pay
of the covenanted servants, He had no objection to having
the service thrown open to properly qualified persons.
Mr. BAILLIE said that this was the most important of
the three bills introduced by the right hon. gentleman, and
it would require the greatest attention from the house. The
law of 1793 had been made to prevent jobbery, but it had
been purposely evaded. In some cases, such as those of the
non-regulated provinces, the law had been necessarily
evaded, but it was doubtful whether the law in these cases
had been really violated or not. He considered that some
bill was necessary to amend the irregularities which had
grown up.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR doubted whether the law of
1793 had been so shamefully evaded as was represented.
The Government of India was often in great distress for
persons who were legally qualified to fill certain appoint-
ments. It would greatly facilitate the right understanding
of the measure if the right hon. gentleman would lay on
the table the correspondence in the case of Mr. O'Reilly,
where the arguments on both sides upon the question of
throwing open the service were fully and clearly stated.
Sir J. FERGUSSON warned the house against being
hurried into precipitate legislation upon a subject of this
great importance. He was glad to find that the right hon.
baronet had spoken with such moderation as to the extent
of interference with the civil service which the Governmen t
contemplated.
Mr. VANSITTART said he had felt afraid that under
cover of this bill an insidious attack was to be made on the
civil service, but he hoped 10s fears would turn out to be
unfounded. He wished to know whether the right hon.
gentleman would consent to lay on the table the opinions of
the special committee which he had appointed to consider
the measure.
Sir C. WOOD in reply said that many of the points
which had been raised would be more conveniently dis-
cussed in future stages of the bill. He must, however, de-
cline to depart from the ordinary practice by laying upon
the table the reports of committees which had been ap-
pointed by the Government to consider the subjects dealt
with by these bills. The council might be said to be the
mind of the Secretary of State, and it would be a very in-
convenient course to produce to the house the opinions of
the various members of the council upon the measures sub-
mitted to the house by the Government, but he repeated
that the general opinion of the council was favourable to
the measure.

Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR asked when the discussion
would be taken.

Sir C. WOOD said he proposed to take the second read-
ing that day week.

EXCISE AND STAMPS BILL.
On the order of the day that this bill, as amended, be con-
sidered,

In clause 14 a provision was introduced that in the event
of a number of persons having to sign an agreement or re-
ceipt one only need sign his name across the adhesive stamp.
Mr. AYRTON said as the law stood at present no agree-
ment need be stamped sooner than 6 months after execution.
The hon. and learned member moved the omission of the
words, " And also any agent or perzon who shall prepare or
be employed in preparing the same."
Mr. CRAUFURD hoped the amendment would not bo
pressed. What he complained of most was, that the clause
would hit the unhappy counsel who prepared a lease, al-
though ho had nothing to do with the execution of it.
In reply to a question from Mr. HENNESSY,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not aware that the clause would make any alteration
in the law of agreements as regarded the period allowed for
stamping after they were executed.
The amendment having being negatived without a divi-
sion,

Mr. AYRTON said he had abstained hugl dividing, in
Deference to the wish of hon. members who objected to the
clause as a whole. His own objections applied in tto
thQ Whole clamo, 11.0 Ompoluld tic Nizlg"ar AnOMOY

11.11111..
attaching a penalty to that which the law allowed. A, e
the
law stood, an agreement need not be stamped until after it
was executed. A letter offering to take apartments con-
stituted, with an answer accepting the offer, an agreement
to take them. If this clause passed, the person writing the
first letter would be liable to a penalty; whereas the prac-
tice at present was to get one of the letters stamped after-
wards, as evidence of the whole transaction. The law
relating to agreements must be entirely altered if such penal-
ties as these were to be imposed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
argument of the hon. and learned gentleman was an argu-
ment not merely against this clause but against the principle
of requiring written agreements to be stamped. There were
abundant precedents for levying penalties for the non-
stamping of agreements at the time of execution. Policies
of assurance, bills of exchange, promissory notes, and bills
of lading all subjected parties to a positive penalty if the
stamp were not affixed at the time. He agreed with the
hon. and learned gentleman that correspondence consti-
tuting an agreement ought to be exempted ; but he was
advised that this clause would not apply to such cases, but
would apply exclusively to cases in which formal agree-
ments were drawn with the intention of their being signed
in common by the parties. If there were any doubt as
regarded the exemption of letters, he should be happy to
introduce words making the exemption clear. The ques-
tion really was whether they were to lay any penalty at
all upon neglecting to use a proper stamp upon agree-
ments for letting furnished houses for a term of less than
a year. At present a very heavy duty was exigible on such
agreements, but it was never paid. What, therefore, he
proposed to do was to diminish the duty to a reason-
able amount, and to make provisions against its evasion.
These agreements were fugitive documents, they were in-
struments that never came under the cognisance of any
third person, except in the rare case of a dispute, and under
such circumstances the only reasonable course to pursue, in
order to protect the revenue, would be to lay a penalty on
every attempt to escape the payment of it.
Mr. lIADFIELD still maintained that the clause would
affect every person who corresponded with another on the
subject of letting a house, if the negotiation terminated in
the acceptance of an offer. He would suggest that the right
hon. gentleman should withdraw the clause andbring up a
properly drawn one.
Mr. HENLEY thought the clause was the commence-
ment of a new system. At present no person could produce
in court an unstamped memorandum unless he chose to pay
the penalty of £lO ; but it was optional to him to have it
stamped or not. The object of the clause seemed, however,
to be to make the drawing up of such a memorandum the
subject of a penalty.
Mr. CRAUFURD said that the clause would. not pro-
tect the revenue, because the agreements in question did
not require to be reduced to writing at all.
Mr. PULLER said that if correspondence were exempted
the clause would be useless, because all agreements would
be thrown into that form. The one party would write mak-
ing an offer ; the other reply accepting it, and the two let-
ters together would make a contract.
Mr. GLADSTONE read a form of proviso which he was
prepared to move, in order to meet the objections of hon.
gentlemen. He relied on the moderate amount of the duty
as the best reason why persons should not attempt to evade
it, but ,f the clause was not agreed to he must fall back on
the present high duty, and take his chance of getting it
when he could.
Mr. AYRTON said the proposed proviso would not meet
the case.

The cciumittee divided on the retention of the clause as
amended—

Ayes
72
Nom
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then said
that he world on a future day move to recommit the bill in
order to add the proviso of which he had given notice.
The report was then received.
SUPPLY—COMMITTEE.
PERSECUTION OF PROTESTANTS IN SPAIN.
On the quastion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Sir R. PZEL asked what steps had been taken with
regard to the religious persecutions which 700
British subjects, merchants and others, in the south of
Spain, were kndergoing by being prevented holding divine
service in ther houses.
Lord J. RI:SSELL said that he had taken steps in the
matter. The Tact was, Mr. Gordon, the vice-consul at
Xeres, had behaved in an unjustifiable manner in forbid-
•
ding a Protestant service anywhere except in his own house,
and that, being a Roman Catholic, he would not allow.
Our minister in Spain suggested Mr. Gordon's resignation,
but that not ha'ring been sent in, he (Lord J, Russell) had
taken measures 1-,o have another person appointed. It was
the opinion of Si? A. Buchanan that the Spanish govern-
ment had no desire to press the law of the country against
Protestant obserNances.
ALMIRALTY ANCHORS.
Mr. LINDSAY said he referred the other night to the
cost of Admiralty anchors, and distinctly showed that we
were paying close on three times the market price for them.
He had since received a letter from a firm, who stated that
they had recently made anchors for the Spanish Govern-
ment at £2O per ton below what the Admiralty were paying,
and these anchors were to be made exactly the same, and
were to be proved by the same test as the Admiralty an-
chors. A few years ago, his informants added, the contrac-
tors for chain cables failed, and since then the whole of
these had been made by the house which manufactured the
anchors. He was not before aware of this fact, and the
letter itself was one of the advantages which resulted from
these discussions. (Hear.) He wished to know how it was
that the same firm had the monopoly both of the anchors
and of the chain cables, and what price was paid for these
cables.

Lord C. PAGET said he had distinctly told his hon.
friend that the same firm supplied both the anchors and the
cables, and he would now state that if any firm would make
a proper offer to the Admiralty they would be prepared to
consider it, both as regarded anchors and cables. The prices
charged by the present contractors were occasionally re-
vised, according to the market prices of the day, and there-
bre it was not fair tal say that the Admiralty were paying
at an excessive rate for their anchors and cables.
IRON SHIPS.

Sir J. ELPHINGSTONE said the proposal to use in the
construction of iron-clad ships timbers cut out for other
vessels, was, in his opinion, an improvident one. The
proper form of iron-clad ships was yet undecided, and
he therefore proposed to move a resolution that no con-
struction of iron-clad ships be entered on by converting the
timber prepared for ships of the ordinary description or
otherwise until the form best calculated to obtain the quali-
ties necessary for iron men-of-war he decided by a commit-
tee of men of science and practical knowledge. It would
be the height of folly for the purpose of keeping the ex-
penses of this iron fleet out of the current expenses of the
year to run the risk of having to reconstruct our navy.
Mr. BENTINCii doubted very much whether the object
of using this timber in this way was not to keep the expenses
of the iron fleet out of the present estimates, so as to bolster
up the unfortunate Budget. He should be glad to have an
assurance from the Government that the real intention was
not to make the figures meet, and to throw dust in the eyes
of the house as to the likelihood of an augmentation of the
Navy Estimates being needed. (Hear.)
Sir F. SMITH asked whether some of the two and three
deckers now lying in our ports could not be cut down for the
purpose of being converted into iron-clad vessels. He agreed
with his hon. and gallant friend that it was important to
determine as soon as possible whether we had adopted the
best form in the Warrior. Some officers of great experience
were of opinion that we had not.
Lord C. PAGET explained the manner in which the
timber would be used, so as to give displacement enough to
carry the necessary weight. It would not do to cut down
our line-of-battle ships, as they had not sufficient displace-
ment to carry the weight:of armour and the necessary num-
ber of guns.

The SPEAKER then left the chair, and the house went
into Committee of Supply.
SUPPLY.
Upon the vote of £469,835 for new works and improve-
ments in the harbours and dockyards,
Sir F. SMITH called for some explanation of various
items in the vote, particularly the items of £5,229 for the
new plank stores at Deptford, £160,000 for convict labour
at Chatham, and £lO,OOO for the north inlet dock at Ports-
mouth. He also wished to know what had become of all
the money voted last year, which had not been expended.
He begged to move that the vote be reduced by the sum. of
£3,225, proposed for additional accommodation for spinning
machinery at Chatham.

Mr. WHITBREAD could assure the hon. and gallant gen-
tleman that most of the money given on vote 11 had been
spent.

Sir M. SEYMOUR asked for some explanation as to how
far the arrangements had been improved for officers and
men in the naval barracks at Devonport ?

Lord C. PAGET said the barrack accommodation at
Devonport would enable tho Government to lodge 2,000
men, and convenience for married sailors would be made
very much upon the principle of military barracks ; but he
was not prepared to say that the buildings would be fitted
up with all the improvements and conveniences of soldiers'
barracks.

The reduction was then agreed to, and the Chairman put
the reduced vote of £466,610 for new works, improvements,
and repairs.

Mr.-WILLIAMS called attention to the expenditure
upon Keyham Dockyard. Upwards of £lOO,OOO more than
the original estimate had already been spent, and another
£lOO,OOO would be required before the work was completed.
Sir J. ELPHINSTONE thought the Government had
acted wisely in salting their own provisions, and he was
sure that if carried out, under proper supervision, a very
superior article ludo( d might be supplied to seamen.
Mr. LINDSAY thought it would be as well to postpone
the ;£15,000 for Chatham till after a committee inquired
whether the larger sum of £980,000 should be expended -"
the dockyard of that place. He should the--lure move
that the vote be reduced by £15,000.
was a great necessity for
increased basin
Lord C. PAGET said that
po......wionation. They had only 37 acres,
...mi.* iue Ereneh had 115. Chatham would give 55 more.
As to tlic.
selection of Chatham he thought it the best, and
tb:a safest, and the most convenient. The works would also
keep the river clear of mud.

Mr, CONINQYAN though that Chatham was the wont

selection ft at could be made, as from what he understood
it would soon be high and dry.

Mr. DALGLISH doubted the expediency of spending so
much money on a work of doubtful utility. He was not
aware of the peculiar advantages of iChatham. It had
neither iron nor coal. He thought that Liverpool or the
Clyde should be selected. (Laughter.)
Sir F. SMITH said the object was to increase the basin
accommodation, and Chatham afforded peculiar advantages
for that purpose.

The vote was then agreed to.
The house then resumed.
The East India Loan Bill was read a second time.
HIGHWAYS BILL.

Sir G. C. LEWIS moved the second reading of this bill.
The house divided :
Ayes
110
Noes
31-79
The bill was therefore read.
Mr. BENTINCK, and several other members, complained
that an understanding had been come to that the bill should
not be taken that night, and many hon. gentlemen who
wera strongly opposed to the bill had gone away.
Sir G. C. LE WIS regretted the error, and said that ample
notice should be given of the next stage.
INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.

The house went into committee ova this bill.
Sir S. NORTHCOTE moved, in clause 3, line 13, after
" construction," to insert " 'jus tices ' shall include any two
or more justices of the peace noting together in petty ses-
sions, and also any police magistrate, lord mayor, or alder-
man of the City of London, who by the act of the 11th and
12th years of her present Majesty, chapter 43, sections 33
and 34, is authorised to do alone whatsoever is authorised
by that act to be done by any two or more justices of the
peace."

The amendmeut was agreed to, as were several other
minor amendnarmts.

Mr. HENLEY complained of the vagueness of the clause
which preseTibed what children should go to the schools.
These institutions were really doing a great deal of good,
anri the, managers of them would do well not to make
their drag net too wide, otherwise they might raise up some
feeling against them.

Sir G. C. LEWIS defended the clause, but said that if
any fear was felt that it might be used arbitrarily, he
should have no objection to alter its expressions.
Mr. HENNESSY moved that the third part of the clause
be struck out.

Mr. II HALLEY also disapproved of the clause, on the
ground that the police in his part of the country had too
much power already.

Sir G. C. LEWIS said that the withdrawal of the clause
would in a great measure destroy the efficiency of the bill.
The object of the bill was to prevent children of tender age
being sent to prison or to a raformatory, and thus to check
crime at the outset. Considering that the act was to be
administered, not by policemen, but by magistrates, he
thought the paragraphs, which had been very carefully
prepared, might be allowed to stand.
After some further conversation,
Mr. HENNESSY moved that the chairman report pro-
gress.
The committee divided. The numbers were—
Ayes
20
Noes
63-43
The clause was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the house resumed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPPLEMENTAL BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
The Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill was
read a second time.

The Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes (Ireland)
Bill passed through committee.
The house adjourned at ten minutes to 2 o'clock.