The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-20 00:00:00

which had been made by his hon. friend ; and lee should
therefore support his motion.
Mr. DRUMMOND said that he wa3 always an advo-
cate for the extension of the franchise. In the first place,
always disliking the Reform Bill from top to toe, there
was ono thing he never could understand, and that was
the reason why there should be such a high qualification
for -voters, when you would have done away with the
qualification for seats in that house, He never could
understand for what reason you fixed the value of aright
to vote at 10/.—why not at 9/., or Si., or any other sum?
The same objections were always made to this bill. He
wished to see the franchise extended to;the lowest classes,
in order that they might be able to protect themselves
against the tyranny of those above them, exercised as we
saw it was every day. But let the house be content ;
they would never have a reform bill until the gentlemen
on that (the Ministerial) side of the house got on the
other side and wanted to get back again. (Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the proposal of the hon.
gentleman the member for East Surrey had been met by
his noble friend at the head of the Government with two
objections. First, on the ground of the business of the
session, which did not admit of the discussion of such a
bill this year; and, secondly, he founded his objection
on the constitutional principle involved. As regarded
the first objection, he did not think that the Government
ought to allege that there would not be time for the busi-
ness of this bill. Looking to the various subjects of
business before the house, he could see that there must
be considerable discussion on the budget ; but the pro-
posals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were in them-
selves simple, and did not involve a complicated series
of measures ; and therefore when the house had decided
one or two questions it might be said that they had de-
cided the whole principle of the budget. With regard to
the measures of the Government, he must say that the
Government seemed to him carefully to avoid undertak-
ing any measures of importance. (Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department was asked a short time since whether
it was the intention of the Government to intro-
duce any measure on the subject of Church rates,
and he replied that it was not their intention to
do in. The right hon. gentleman the member for Droit-
wich had brought forward a proposition of great import-
ance., and which had created considerable interest
throughout the country, namely, the subject of educa-
tion ; but there had been no hint given by the Govern-
met t that they had any measure in preparation on that
subject, or that they proposed to interfere in the course
taken by the right hon. gentleman. Only to-night aques-
tion had been put to the Government on a subject which
had excited some agitation, somewhat unnecessarily, as
he thought, namely, that of agricultural statistics ; and
it appeared that even on that subject the Government
was not prepared with a measure, and they still refrained
front disturbing the placid course they seemed to have
laid down for themselves. If this was the case, so far as
the state of public business was concerned, there was
ample time for consideration of a measure so simple as
that proposed by the hon. gentleman the member fur
East Surrey. He (Lord J. Russell) now came to the
question itself, and he would say that the hon. gentle-
man had truly alleged that he (Lord J. Russell) had for-
merly entertained objections to measures of this kind,
but the hon. gentleman did not mention that in the last
Reform Bill Ise (Lord J. Russell) had brought forward,
he had introduced the very county franchise which the
hon. gentleman had proposed. (Hear.) The objection he
heard made to this measure would be a sound one if it
could be now maintained that, constitutionally speaking,
the right to the franchise in counties was by tenure, and
that in boroughs by occupation. But that ground had
beet taken away by an amendment on the Reform Bill,
which had been carried by the present Duke of Buck -
ire! ham, which gave the franchise by occupation t
co inty voters. He (Lord J. Russell) was afraid of the
effect of that amendment, which was likely to add to the
number of dependent voters, and he was opposed to it, and
yii Idea it only to the wishes of Lord Alan- rp and his col-
leagues, who were joined with him in bringing on that
111, asure. He found that so far from adding to that class
of voters, the 20/. and 101. occupiers were the most inde-
pendent voters, and that the extension of that class of
voters would be animprevenuent to the franchise instead of
its adding to the number of dependent voters. Having
to ice, oace in 1852 and again in 1851, introduced mea-
sures which he conceived grew naturally out of the Re-
form Act, and were in conformity with its spirit, and
which contemplated changes in the franchise, he would
say that it must bo admitted that there was ro great
pressure on the public mind, nor any national urgency
for a great and comprehensive measure of reform. He
thought it would be imprudent in his hon. friend if he
was to say that lie would rely on any intention of the
Government to disturb our existing legislation by any
large and comprehensive measure of reform ; but he
would admit that in such cases he (Lord J. Russell)
w mid resume the argument he had used towards his hon.
friend on former occasions,that it would be better to enter
tlae consideration of the whole question. Now,however,
on the contrary, as one desirous of refotm, be thought
it best to adopt measures of improvement in our repre-
sentative system when they were safely attainable. He
thought that the measure of his hon. friend was a safe
measure. He thought that no one who would allow
the franchise to 101. occupiers in boroughs could object
to allowing it to 101. occupiers in counties ; for that
class of persons occupied houses of a better description,
and many of them were persons of greater intelligence
and of larger property than the 101. occupiers in bo-
r.ughs. There were often persons in large towns who
bad no votes, and who occupied 10/. houses, who, if
they came toLondnn or any of our large provincial cities,
would find that 151. or 201. a year would not obtain for
them houses like those they bad previously occupied. As
it was not likely that any large and comprehensive mea-
sure of reform would be introduced, he thought the mea-
sure now proposed would tend to satisfy a large body of
persons who now had cause to complain of being de-
prived of the franchise, although they were occupiers of
10/. or 201. houses, like their neighbours in boroughs.
A gain, it was often the case that a town which had
grown up into importance, and which contained a pope-
lotion of 10,000 or 14,000 persons, did not send mem-
bers to Parliament, while another town, five miles off,
ith 5,000 or 6,100 inhabitants, did send representatives
to Parliament. That was an unfair state of things, if
y in were not going to alter and reconstruct the system
ct obtaining votes in that house ; but if you gave those
persons the right to vote in counties the grievance would
be diminished, and a greater approach made to equality
in the rights of voting, and be thought that such a coarse
ould tend to it and consolidate oar representa-
t,ve institutions. Taking this view of the subject, be
suould vote for the introduction of the bill—(hear)—and
if the hon. gentleman succeeded in obtaining leave to
bring it in he should support the second reading. He
thought the time a favourable one for removing any ini-
perstectione which existed in our representative system.
We might have this year or next a general election, ai d
it would tend greatly to improve our representative sys-
tem if we could have three or four thousand men of pro-
j erty and intelligence added to those who enjoy the
• franchise. He did not know whether there was any in-
tention of dealing with the franchise in Sc Aland and Ire-
lend, but as the bill stood it should receive his cordial
support. (Hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK congratulated the lion, member for
West Surrey (Hr. Drummond) on the speedy fulfilment
of his prophecy. The noble lord the member for London
'ens certainly not sitting on that (the opposition) side of
the house, but he was evidently uncomfortable in the
place ho now occupied. (Rear, and laughter.) When he
heard the noble lord taunt the Government with nut
I ringing forward useful measures, be could not help ask-
ing the noble lord to favour him with a list of useful wee
a ires which he brought forward when he was at the head
of the Government. (Oh, oh, and cheers.) He believed
tein) country was thoroughly sick of the word reform.
( Jeer and laughter.) It was quite true, as the hon.
member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) had said, that
it was only a clap-trap used for stirring up the bad pas-
t ions of the
So far a
heigrnorantwhe, certainthe
e persons were out of
r face. (i
general
el question was con-
e Tned, after what had passed in the v
rnpre
last few years, aryl
sa lien the noble lord had been always
measure of re-
form, urging the ne-
e sssity of a large and co
and never availing himself 04,b, .b
anyo)p
p:t rtunity for
',ringing in any such measure—(ub, would be
d fficult to persuade the country that there was anything
but a party object in these attempts at reform.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot at this moment answer
the challenge of the right hon. gentleman, as he well
knows ; but I shall be happy on a future occasion to
State to him the measures which I have brought in.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the hon. gentleman was
most unjust to the noble lord ; and he ( \lr. Duncombe)
ahould have been much surprised to find the noble lord
• take any other course than that he hld pursued now.
In 1854 the noble lord laid on the table a Reform Bill
which he parted with on account of the war with great
regret, which contained the very proposition now made
ly the hon. member for East Surrey. What would they
have the noble lord to do ? His (Hr. Duncorebe'e)
5-tonishinent was that any member el Lord
t,,,t0
Aberdeen's. Government should vote agahast the
n of the honourable gentleman. There was
eo doubt so-ne apathy in the country on this sub-
ject, but '
that was because the house was not equal to the
emergency. If L i,to
power, let
them
D,rby's party should again come
v ithin the pule
of tiern attempt to bring the operatives
agitation the constitution, and they would have
and Support,,.t to their heart's content. But
there would be n,, a
ae agitation, nor would the people ask
re
fer
ected reform,
He w measure like the present should be
j. ould, support the measure as he had done
d oon former occasions
nly regretted that it did not
g I further. There were at present four vacant seats, and
a. hen Lord A ,I•by's governmentvittvas in existence the
befilled, to the
importance
heuae was told that it was of
al
c ,nsfitution that these seats should
to
as introduced, the object of which was
to
and a bill
le give two of
them to Lanea,sh o
ire are( the other two
Yorkshire.
Pet nothing was heard of that proposition last
anted to know why `ugh places as cheisaa,Teri. ege
smith, Kensington, and Brom ,
pton were not to )tii7o.-
presented ? There were hundreds of occupiers of 401;
or 501. houses in these places who could not
vote for either a borough or a county. A. man
ing on one side of a street in Chelsea, occupying a 401.
b"6O, had no vote, whilst another occupying al5l.
house was entitled to a vote for Westminster. He con-
snlered the present syste'n most unjust, and should be
surprised if the house refused to assent to a proposition
so rational an that which had been submitted to it by the
ea. member for East Surrey. (Cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM expressed his regret that the hon.
member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) and the hon.
n.ember for East Norfolk (Mr. Bentieek) should have
thought it expedient thus early in the discussion to ins-
pert into it imputations of personal motives. (Rear )
The place which be (Sir J. Graham) occupied
was one of
his own choice, and he was perfectly cvon:tent to remain
i
in that position. The hon. member forltia3teNa)rfhoal(ki had
important
s ated that his ueble friend (Lord J.
*ithin his memory introduced any
advantageous to the country. The hon.
memberhad measures
n o