The Sun.
London, England, 1861-07-09 00:00:00

THE FOREIGN OFFICE.

the celebrated Montague and Capulet feud there had been
no feud like that between the Palmerstonian and Lombardo-

Gothic styles of architecture. (Laughter.) But he did not
intend to enter into these disputes at all. In the matter
upon which he wished t o speak one building had been found
wanting. Let them look to the much-praised building in
which they were assembled. The estimate of the expense
was £750,000, and it had actually cost 2/ millions. And
gentlemen talked about the different styles, about the hori-
zontal and the perpendicular—(laughter)—when the coun-
try was looking to the question what would the building
cost ? (Hear) It happened that in 1855 Mr. Pennethorne,
the architect and surveyor of the Board of Works, was

called upon to submit a plan for the new Foreign-office ,
and what was the estimate for his plan? It was £60,000 for
the building and DA,OOO for the purchase of the site ? But
the House of Commons of that day was so singularly spar-
ing of the public money that when they were called upon
for this vote they refused to grant it, and voted £lO,OOO for
patching up the old buildings. (Hear.) But what was the
estimate of the money they were called upon to provide for
this building ? It was £200,000. But did the house believe
it would be built for that,whatever style was adopted. (Hear.)
He did not think the question had been properly treated by
the house. When the competition for the design was thrown
open it was thrown open to all the world, and £5,000 pre-
mium was offered for the bast design. The first premium
was awarded to Messrs. Coe and Holland, and the second
on the lists were Messrs. Bankes and Barry, but in conse-
quence of Mr. Scott, who had, it was true, an European
celebrity as a Gothic architect, being secured for furnishing
the plans of the Foreign and War-offices, Mr. Scott was, by
some curious hocus pocus, put forward between the two
gentlemen who obtained the first premiums and the noble
lord (Lord J. Manners), who was a devotee in the Gothic
school. (Hear.) If the house were to treat this subject pro-
perly some one would move an amendment and say a plague
on both your houses." (Laughter.) Reject both the Pal-
merstonian and the Scott plan, re-open the question, and
give the building to the man who gained the first premium.
(Hear.) He expressed no opinion upon either style—he was
so afraid of being a party to the enormous expense which
was about to be incurred. He thought the whole question
ought to be reopened, and that these gentlemen ought to
have the benefit of the position which they had fairly gained
in 1855. He should take no part in the division, but he ad-
vised the house to be on its guard and remember always
that the estimate for the houses of Parliament was £750,000,
and the actual cost £2,500,000. They were the worst build-
ing committee in the world, and they stood disgraced in the
eyes of Europe as men of business. (Oh, oh, and Hear.)
The cost of this undertaking would, he believed, in like
manner swell into a million, and if any gentleman would
move that both plans be rejected, and the thing thrown
open as at first, he should be happy to vote for it; but he
would say nothing of the merits of the Palmerstonian style,
the Manners style, or the Gothic. (Hear.)
Lord PA LMERSTON—The battle of the books, the
battle of the big• endians and the little-endians, the battle of
the green ribands and the blue ribands were as nothing
compared with this battle of the styles. (A laugh.) But 1.
must say I think that if I was to pronounce an impartial
verdict as to the issue, I should say that the Gothic has
been entirely defeated. (Laughter.) The noble lord who sits
opposite made it a reproach to me that whereas he, an ardent
and enthusiastic devotee, as my hon. friend has called him,
of the Gothic, appointed Mr. Scott as architect, superseding,
those who had won the highest prizes, and therefore step-
ping out of the way of proper selection—that whereas ho
appointed him—l will not sqy solely and entirely, be-
cause Mr. Scott has great professional merits, but merely
because he was versed in Gothic architecture—that on that
account, I who succeeded him, differing with him in opinion
as to the style, but out of deference to Mr. Scott's vested
claims, having conferred upon him the appointment of
architect, I was obliged to adopt, therefore, not only the
architect, but the style of the noble lord. That is certainly
requiring a great deal too much by a person who leaves
office of the person who comes in his place. (Hear, hear.)
I have heard it made a reproach to a new Government that
they have adopted the measures of their predecessors, but I
think it ought to be no reproach to me that I did not follow
their example in the present instance. (Hear, hear.) The
noble lord laid stress upon what he asserted to be the pre-
vailing taste as exemplified by the practice of the country.
He mentioned large towns, but he forgot that some of the
noblest edifices in those large towns are in the Italian style.
He talked of Liverpool, but he forgot the St. George's-hall.
Lord J. MANNERS was understood to say that he had
not alluded to Liverpool.

Lord ELCHO moved that, in the opinion of this house,
it is not desirable that the new Foreign-office should be
erected according to the Palladian design now exhibited in
a committee room of the house. The noble lord said that
the plan of this office was to all intents and purposes the
design of the Prime Minister. He said that it had been
decided that this office should be open to European com-
petition, and 200 plans were sent in. A committee
was appointed to make a selection, and premiums wore
awarded to seven of these designs. The noble lord then
proceeded to relate the subsequent proceedings in reference
to the subject until the adoption of the Palladian plan by
Mr. Scott, who consented to be draughtsman of the Prime
Minister, who had a horror of Gothic architecture. He
had referred to the debate that had taken place on
this question, and he did not think they were conclusive
in favour of the adoption of the Palladian or Italian design.
It had been asserted by the hon. member for Bath (Mr.
Tite) that Gothic architecture gave only a minimum of con-
venience at the maximum of cost. No doubt that was true,
but it arose from:the abuse of Gothic architecture. The hon.
member had also said that the new office should harmonise
with the genus loci, but what was meant by that he
did not clearly understand. The hon. gentleman
said the office should harmonise with Montague .house, but
though that might be a pretty building he believed it was
not so popular as to induce the public to wish the Foreign-
office to be in harmony with that edifice. The noble lord
at the head of her Majesty's Government described the
Gothic architecture as being inapplicable to a public office,
which should be gay and airy outside and light inside.
With respect to light, it could be proved that it
would give all the light that was required. The Gothic
style of architecture afforded facilities for introducing consi-
derable variety—the brick which abounded in this country
could be used for it with effect. Having referred to the
failures in the materials of which the houses of Parliament
were constructed, as well as to Buckingham Palace and the
Bank of England, he adverted to the buildings on
the Continent, and drew a comparison between them and
these in this country, favourable to the former. He called
on the house not to sanction the proposal of the noble lord
(Lord Palmerston).
Mr. C. BUXTON seconded the motion, and said that
he did not want to disparage the talent of Mr. Scott, but
the fact was that that gentleman's genius lay in
Gothic architecture, and he highly approved of his
Gothic design. He thought if Mr. Scott was to be the
architect, he should be allowed to select the style of archi-
tecture for which his genius was suited. It had been said
1 that Gothic architecture was unsuited to secular build-
ings, and that it did not afford sufficient light. That defect,
he contended, arose from the adoption of imperfect
Gothic designs, and the plan in that style of Mr. Scott was
entirely free from these defects. He called on the noble
lord (Lord Palmerston) to sacrifice generously his own pre-
dilections, and consult the taste of the rising instead of the
setting generation.
Mr. COWPER denied that the feeling of the public was
in favour of the Gothic as contrasted with the Italian style
of architecture. He founded that opinion on the statements
of persons competent to judge on this subject, and they
were in favour of Mr. Scott's Italian design,
which they considered by far the best that had
been submitted to competition. It was a proof of Mr. Scott's
genius that he had been so successful in a style of architec-
ture different to that in which he had previously excelled. It
was not, as had been alleged, that the plan was drawn up
in conformity with the directions of his noble friend at the
head of the Government, but in accordance with what had
been considered public opinion. He proceeded at some
length to vindicate the selection of the Italian style. He
contended that if the Foreign-office was even built in the
Italian style it would harmonise with the surrounding
buildings, including the other Government offices, and
would realise from that harmony an effect which could not
be produced by a structure wh ch, different in style, must
be tested merely by its own intrinsic merit, and without
any reference to congruity. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LAYARD said it must excite surprise that, in the
19t
v
tt
theh
acentury, so little progress was made in this country
i
science of ofwasrcienird in
architecture.; He ttlinoeugphrteathenatt archi-
tecturethdeaywasthat which would admit most light and air. (Hear
hear.) He contended that the Gothic arc hitecture
supplied these desiderata.
Palladian style as a.
He strongly objected to the
beinglitnr ean,bat he did not mean to attri-
bute any blame
to
fame in another Scott, who had acquired his
department, and
acquired a should not be selected
cqu
to no distinction.
He strongly denounced the adherence
for a style in which he
had
illustration
in public
buildings, and referred to Paris as an uHe
tooktr occasion to
ation of the
disagreeable effect of .that monotony,
observe that the style of public buildings indicated the
political condition of a people, and he would
at once have recognised hi Paris a Government of
despotism. (Oh, oh.) Hon. members might dissent, but
he had seen an instance of what he asserted, for while he
was passing up the Rue Rivoli, he saw the whole
of the street scaffolded, and on making inquiry found
that the Government had ordered the tenants to
scratch their outsides. (Laughter.) lie called on
the house not to repeat a mistake similar to what had keen
done in respect to the Houses of Parliament. In that
case they selected an Italian architect to build a Gothic
building, and now it Was proposed to select a Gothic architect
for an Italian building. Ho concluded by expressing a
hope that the plan of Mr. Scott would be submitted to a
select committee before it was decided on by the house.
(Hear, hear.)

Lord PALMERSTON—The noble lord took good care
not to mention it. (Cheers and laughter.) He mentioned
Manchester, but made no allusion to the Free. trade Hall,
a splendid building in the Italian style. He spoke of Leeds,
but he has forgotten that building which is the greatest
ornament of the town of Leeds, and which is also in the
Italian style. (Hear, hear.) Here are three buildings of
great magnitude, costing large sums of money, erected
lately by the people of these towns, and surely these are in-
dications of what the taste and opinion of the people are.
(Hear, hear.) But the noble lord went further, and wanted
to saddle upon Edinburgh, the modern Athens—upon
Edinburgh, which ho determined to adorn, the Calton Hill,
with an imitation of the Parthenon—not satisfied with the
Italian, but going back to the Greek—the noble lord wanted
to throw upon Edinburgh the imputation of having been
converted to the Gothic style. (Laughter.) I call upon
every Scotch member to say whether that is not a gross
libel upon the taste of the community. (Loud laugh-
ter.) Then objections have been made upon the ground
that these plans have no originality, and it is said in the
first place that it is not a national 'style—that the Italian
style, I will not call it the Palladian, but the Roman cies •
sical, is not national. 'Well, is the Gothic national ? (Hear,
hear.) I never heard much of the Goths and Vandals and
Saracens doing much in this country. (Laughter.) I have
been told in my early days that the Romans were in this
country for a considerable number of years, and it is pro-
bable therefore that they have a better claim to have estab-
lished in this island some style of architecture whiclr may
be considered English, than those who never came here at
all. (Laughter.) But my noble friend talked about what
was,the real ancient architecture of England. Why, my hon
friend who followed him thought that Stonehenge might be
considered as a specimen of the ancient architecture of the
country. (Laughter.) But I would go further, and say that
the real aboriginal architecture of this country was mud
huts and wicker wigwams—these were the original styles of
those who first inhabited this island. (Loud laughter.) And
when we talk of Gothic being practised at certain periods,
so has Italian. When we are asked what is the national
character, we might, I think, very reasonably ask the ques-
tion upon which it must very much depend, namely, who
have been the most distinguished architects of the country
and what style did they practise ? We have had Vaubrugh,
of whom truly it has been said he laid heavy loads on earth,
but who has given us fine buildings in the Roman and Grecian
style. We have had also Sir Christopher Wren and Inigo
Jones—great men, who have erected great edifices to excite
admiration to the present day. (Hear, hear.) Do not tell
me, then, that Gothic is the characteristic architecture of
the country. (Hear, hear.) If there was one character
more prevalent than another it was the castellated man-
sions; but they were erected for purposes of defence. We
find them all over the country ; but the reason they were
erected has ceased to exist, and we may, therefore, I think,
dismiss that style with all its inconveniences. (Hear, hear.)
My hon. friend says there is nothing so light as Gothic, on
account of the number of windows you can introduce. But
we have heard of the
Great windows that exclude the light ;

...
And passages that lead to nothing:
(Cheers and laughter.) And these were after the Gothic
style. Then my noble friend has very kindly invited me to
take a morning drive—which I am unable to accept—through
the streets of London, to test the public taste, forgetting all
those fine buildings, Somerset-house, St. Paul's Cathe-
dral—

An HON. MEMBER—The Post -office.
Lord PALMERSTON—Yes, the Post-office, and several
others. Why, it is very much as if a gentleman should
drive through the streets of Rome, and seeing a number of
children with arms dislocated and legs out of joint exhi-
bited as beggars for the profit of their parents, should say,
" These are the tastes and habits of the Roman people,"
forgetting all the while the many stout, well-conditioned,
able-bodied men he may have met—(laughter) —and should
say, " Let us make our children like the people of Rome,
for these are the tastes of the Roman people." (Renewed
laughter.) My noble friend reverses the boast of the Roman
emperor, " I found it of brick and left it stone," and would
make these buildings of brick. Well, we all know what
colour brick turns after a certain exposure to London smoke.
I am afraid to quote an Italian authority against it because
I do not admit Italian taste; but I will quote what was
said to me by Canova, a man versed in art's, and supposed
Marsh,(a insteadu
g tha makeer
g .
) Goodr o
e f
it a
ta B makingarchitect,tasteut real
n wostoahm Ri it
to be a good judge in these matters. Ile said, " If London
were only widened it would be a real Paradise." (Hear.)
But
something real
else,by h
Paradise t me
elynoooteei friendss
would ho
e therefore
invention it .s perhaps rhap
some s thatne
w
wouldb cast over all the streets. (Cheers and laughter.) No
do
simple.t it was well known that error was infinite and truth
sgtirnriwepdillelthasneatdiesxbfpaen.dtmasehtneot infinite,butfriend
did andbnuo
thftt
the
Gothicorder
d o
ra domfyi tmsoyfinfinitearchitecture. v.
ar i ety
LMr.
succeed. We all remember the stary of the gentleman
walking akng Regent-street while it was building, and
struck with something very irregular in one of the houses
being constructed, said to the clerk of the works, " Why,
good heavens I what order do you call it ? " to which he
got the reply, "It is Mr. Marsh's positive order." (Much
laughter.) I should like to see the positive order of my
noble friend. (Renewed laughter.) But if my noble friend
wants to invent a new order of architecture, if it is thought
worth while, let us offer a premium for it ; but for heaven's
sake, seeing that we want a Foreign-office, that our
Foreign-office is tumbling down, and that the Colonial-
office is following its example—(a laugh)—and seeing
that we want an India-office and a State Paper-offie,e,
the present being nearly full, there not being space left for
more than two years' papers—seeing all these thing, do
say do not delay providing these buildings till somebody
invited to compete for the purpose shall have invited a new
order, and that new order shall have been approved by the
House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) With regard to these
plans, it is quite true that I did object to the first plan of
Dlr. Scott as being Gothic. Gothic architecture is very fri

Mr. TITE eulogised the style of the Palladian architec-
ture and the plan of Mr. Scott. All the best architects were
in favour of an Italian style. He thought that the matter
could safely be left in the hands of the Government.

Lord J. MANNERS quoted the result of the inquiries of
the committee three 3 ears ago, who, after a prolonged exa-
mination, reported that in respect of convenience and ven-
tilation no material difference existed between either style.
He contended that the original arrangements, which placed
1 inl the hands of the greatest Gothic architect in Europe,
I Mr. Scott, the erection of a Gothic building, ought to be
maintained. All over the country the Gothic style for public
,dquildiuga was adopted, and by those who could not be classed
1 as architectural reactionists.
1 Mr. B. OSBORNE would promise the house ono thing,
that he would not say a word about architecture. (llear,
and laughter.) And when the noble lord, in the innocence
of his heart, deprecated this being matte a party question,
it might not be made a party question in the sense of par..
Use in the house; but he took upon hire.self to say that since

THE SUN,' LONDON !TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 9, 1861.

for churches and buildings of certain kinds, but I hold that
it is unfit for street architecture in a town, and especially
in a case like this, where the buildings are of a different
character, and we want to combine external appearance with
internal arrangement. (Hear, hear.) Then Mr. Scott
brought me a plan which appeared to be Gothic in disguise,
with windows round the 1 oof ; and afterwards he brought
me another, which appeared to be a mixture of Saracenic
and Byzantine. I said to him then, " Really, Mr. Scott,
you are quite capable of excelling in any style; do, for
heaven's sake, go and bring me something in the Italian
style." (Laughter.) He did, and it has been admired by
the best judges. Ido not myself pretend to be a judge of
the scientific merits of architecture, but it seems to me a
very beautiful plan, and one which combines great beauty
and ornament with moderation in expense. (Hear, hear.)
If we were to adopt the suggestion of my hon. friend, who
spoke of using -different granites, different marbles, and
various kinds of encaustic work, the expense would
be very heavy. And it should be recollected that the
front to Parliament-street will be open, and the building
will be open towards the park ; but the Downing-street
side will be very little open, and the other side will not be
open at all, and therefore it would be a mere waste of
money to have highly ornamental buildings. (Hear,
hear.) Well, having done that, I determined that that
should be the style submitted for the approbation of the
house. The building is to comprise an India-office ; and my
right hon, friend the Secretary of State for India, who is
to build that portion out of the Indian funds, approves of
the plan last prepared by Mr. Scott. If we were to make
our part Gothic and he was to make his in the Italian style
I do not think we should add much to the beauty of the
whole. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Without detaining
the house any longer I IN ill only just answer the appeal
made to me personally by my hon. friend (Mr. Layard).
He had the kindness to give me credit for some amount of
common sense, thinking that I showed the possession of
that quality in going doing to Harrow to lay the first stone
of a Gothic building. (Laughter.) I admit that I did show
common sense in that. lam not fond of Gothic, but a plan
having been approved of for a Gothic library in harmony
with a Gothic chapel close to which it was to be placed—
(hear, hear)—l waived my objection to the style, and laid
the first stone. I will now ask the noble lord and my hon.
friend to show some good sense now—(cheers and laugh-
ter)—to waive their preference for the Gothic, and agree to
lay the first stone of this building, and I am quite sure that
when they see the building rise they will have the same
feeling that I shall have when I sea the Gothic building
rise—of great pleasure in having contributed to such a
work. (Loud cheers.)

The house then divided—
For Lord Elcho's motion 95
Against it . lBB

Majority
THE DANISH CLAIMS.

Mr. MACAULAY, who had a motion on the paper on
this subject, said that he should postpone it till Friday,
when ho understood both the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene-
ral would be in the house.

and if the design was not as ornamental as other designs
appeared to be, it would, at least, be less expensive. With
respect to Mr. Pennethorne's building in Jermyn-street,
which had been referred to by the hon. gentleman, no doubt
it was very handsome ; but there was a great deal more orna-
ment about it than was exhibited in the Foreign-office plan.
His hon. friend also complained that he had not seen the
plan of the internal arrangements. Now, with regard to the
interior of the building, how could the House of Commons
give any such plan ? If a man was building a house he
knew what he wanted ; but the House of Commons was not
going to live in the Foreign-office ; and the Government
having informed Mr. Scott what the nature of the public
business wl9, and what kind of accommodation would be
required, he made his design accordingly. With regard to
the elevation, which his hon. friend had criticised and
thought not sufficiently handsome, he begged to say that he
thought that it was sufficiently handsome. But if they went
on in this way, from year to year, voting money for the
structure, they would save nothing, whereas by a contrary
course the sooner the building was finished the sooner there
would be a saving of expense. (Hear, hear.)
Lord R. CECIL begged to say that they would save by
delay. They had now no plan before them but that of Mr
Scott; but by delay they should know what the public said
and what the expense would be.
Mr. CONINGLTAM should like to know whether, when
the question was thrown open to competition, all the plans
submitted by the various artists had been duly considered.
He could not help saying that all the dissatisfaction that
prevailed on this subject was owing, in his opinion, to the
various plans not having been duly considered, and that
they were too hasty in their decision.
Mr. H. SEYMOUR, in explanation, said the noble lord
at the head of the Government misunderstood him with re-
spect to the ornamentation of the building. He did not
say there was too much ornament, on the contrary, he
thought there was too little in the design. The noble lord
had not answered a question which he had put to him,
namely, upon what ground it was, when Mr. Pennethorne
had expressed himself willing to construct the Foreign-
office for £60,000, the Government declined that offer, and
proposed to give Mr. Scott more than twice as much, not
for a better nor so desirable a design ? They had the
plans, and let them submit them to the contractors. He
thought, also, the plans ought to be lithographed, and if
that were done, and the contractors' opinians taken, they
would be able to see what the cost of the building would be.
Mr. BRISCOE complained that there was no ground
plan of the proposed building, and declared that he could
not give his vote for the required sum in the absence of
further information. There was not one member of the
house who had expressed himself entirely favourable to the
plans of the structure. There ought to be a model of the
building prepared, and he hoped the house would not pro-
ceed hastily with so important a matter.
Mr. PEASE said that he should not press his motion
after the expression of opinion which had taken place, and
ho would, therefore, with the consent of the committee,
withdraw his amendment ; but he felt convinced that in
raising the objection he had done his course was a cor-
rect one.

and 12th Vic., c. 10, it was provided that the Commissioners
of Woods and Forests should within three months after the
end of the financial year place on the table of the house a
return of the annual expenditure up to the end of the last
financial year. What had been the course pursued by the
commissioners for the last few years ? They had kept back
the account until the very last day.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the large sum of £173,000 had
been expended by the Woods and Forests, and he could not
understand why this further sum of £25,700 should be asked
tor. If the Crown estates were properly managed he felt
convinced they would produce an amount equal to the
Queen's civil list. They might spend £38,000 on the
management of the Crown property and the residue would
be equal to the civil list. It seemed to him that £38,000
was a large expenditure on a property of £400,000 a year.
Mr. PEEL said that this department had been examined
into some years ago, and it was found to be well managed.
It was not surprising that in the management of so large an
estate there should be a considerable expenditure. Favour-
able opportunity was taken for the sale of portions of the
property, but sales never took place on the responsibility of
the Woods and Forests department alone. The Treasury
department was always consulted. During the last 10 years
the property had increased from £350,000a year to £417,000.
He should produce a return of the expenditure of the Crown
property for the last five years.
Mr. GREGORY wished to know why the legal expenses
connected with the crown property in Scotland were eight
times the amount they were in Ireland.
The LORD-ADVOCATE believed that in Scotland the
solicitor had to pay for clerks and fees to counsel, whereas
in Ireland a machine for carrying on the business was pro-
vided. He also believed that the law expenses in Scotland
were heavier in consequence of there being a greater amount
of litigation.
Mr. FINLAY believed that a larger sum was expended
in litigation in Scotland than was necessary.
Mr. CAIRD said that an expenditure of 10 per cent, was
far beyond• the fair proportion.
Mr. HENNESSY observed that £5OO had been expended
on the feeding of game in Windsor, yet an hon. member
opposite connected with the Government said last session
that it was absurd to vote money for the support of the starv-
ing people of Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
was as little advantage in discussing the charges for the
management of this large property, amounting to between
£430,000 and £500,000 a year, upon the vote for the ex-
penses of the office of Woods and Forests, as there would
be in discussing the army expenditure on the vote for the
expenses of the War Department. The mode of dealing
with the crown estates had been settled at tie be-
ginning of the present century by express contract. At
the commencement of the reign a contract was entered
into with the sovereign, and the sovereign in pursuance of
that contract had made over the right to receive the net
proceeds after all the charges connected with the manage-
ment had been defrayed. No estimate could possibly be
submitted to the committee for its previous sanction of
those charges without an alteration in the law. At the
same time he did not intend to imply that they were re-
moved from the control of the house, but that control could
not be exercised by proceedings upon the estimates. The act of
1851 gave power to the Treasury to control the Woods and Fo -
rests, and it was in the power of the house to challenge the
Treasury in respect of any proceedings of the Woods and
Forests. He did not intend to say that the matter was
withdrawn from the control of the house, but he submitted
that it ought to be dealt with in another manner.
After some remarks from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY and Mr.
LESLIE,
The committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment
For the original vote 122
Majority —44
Mr. A. SMITH said ho wished to move the postpone-
ment of the vote.
The CHAIRMAN said it was not competent to the hon.
member, after a division, to move the postponement of the
vote.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY protested against the contem- I
plated expenditure. He should like to knew upon what
foundations were the calculations of this expenditure, and
what was the understanding with the architect as to the
remuneration for his labours.
Mr. W. E. DUNCOMBE regretted that the hon. mem.
ber for Durham had withdrawn his amendment, and
thought the vote ought to be postponed for another year.
Mr. A. SMITH asked—Did the estimate of £200,000
for the work include the cost of purchasing the land ?
Mr. COWPER replied that it did not. He denied that
this vote had been charged with extreme haste. It was
under discussion for years, and had been fully considered.
Mr. Pennethorne's offer had been made for the construction
of a building which was considered totally insufficient for
the purposes of the Foreign Office. The ground plan of
Mr. Scott's building was in its essential elements, the same
as that sent in 1857. No advantage, but, on the contrary,
great loss would arise from any further delay in the erection
of the building. The best plan was to leave the matter to
the Executive Government on its own responsibility. A
careful plan and specification would be made by the archi-
tect and thrown open to public tender. The contract would
be made on a complete plan.
Sir J. SHELLEY believed they mould be very lucky if
they succeeded in having the Foreign Office built for
£200,000, and if that were done, very lucky indeed might
the country consider itself.

Sir H. WILLO UGHBY asked—Was not the sito of the
proposed Foreign Office purchased by money belonging to
the Woods and Forests ?
Mr. COWPER said that the architect would receive the
ordinary remuneration and nothing more. A portion of
the site had been purchased by means of an exchange be-
tween the Board of Works and the Land Revenue Depart-
ment.

The vote was then agreed to.
£50,000 having been proposed to defray the expenses and
salaries of officers of the two Houses of Parliament,
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to be informed of the particular
items of this vote.

Mr. LINDSAY complained that no room was set apart
for the accommodation of strangers wishing to communicate
with members. The arrangements of the house were very
inconvenient.

Mr. LAIRD thought some arrangement should be made
whereby members might be made acquainted with the latest
telegraphic news. He also thought that officers of the house
might, as in the House of Lords, be permitted to take in
messages to members.

Mr. CO WPER said the only part of the house unappro-
priated at present was a part of the library, and he had no
objections to hon. members receiving visitors there.
Lord HOTHAM said there were practical difficulties in
the way of admitting messengers into the
_house, and he
hoped the suggestion would not be adopted.
The vote was then agreed to.
£53,173 for clerks' salaries, &c., at the Treasury, was also
agreed to.

£25,783 for the expenses of the office of the Secretary of
State for tho Home Department.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS, the vote was

agreed to.
The vote of £34,449 for the colonies was agreed to.
The next vote proposed was £62,750 for the foreign de.
partment.

Mr. LINDSAY said the committee had reported with
reference to the foreign department that some of the clerks
in the Foreign Office were permitted to act also as agents
for the consular and diplomatic service. The hon. member
said it so happened that a case had occurred in which he
was himself concerned, where he found it necessary to
make a complaint to the Foreign Secretary of the conduct
of a consul, and it might be that reference would be made
to a clerk in the Foreign Office who was at the same time
the agent for that very consul.
Mr. M. MILNES said no doubt it would appear at first
sight that a clerk in the Foreign Office ought not to act as
the hon. member had stated, but from his knowledge of the
facts he was able to say that some of the clerks in the
Foreign Office of necessity acted as agents to the diplo-
matic and consular service, and he believed that the per-
formance of that duty by no 'means detracted from their
usefulness in performing their public duties.
Lord J. RUSSELL said for his own part he could say
that there was no public wrong done by the practice which
had been objected to. The nature of the duties of the
Foreign Office were of'the most confidential kind, and it
would not be advisable that private agents should be fur-
nished with information which they might require if they
performed the duties of agents to the diplomatic and con-
sular service. He was able to say that the public service
did not suffer by the practice which was objected to by the
hon. member. (Hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said he had had a great deal of
experience in the Foreign-office, and he was satisfied that
the public service did not suffer by the practice of the
clerks acting as agents under the circumstances alluded to.
It was most important that no private agent should be fur-
nished with information which was known to the clerks in
the office, and in whom it was necessary the fullest confi-
dence should be placed.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following :
£30,580 for salaries in the Privy Council-office.
£14,595 for the expenses of the office for the Privy Coun-
cil for Trade.
.£2,760 for the Lord Privy Seal, and the expenses of his
establishment.
£6,112 for the civil service commission.
£13,1,50 for the department of the Paymaster-General.
On a vote of £d,640 for salaries and expenses connected
with the office of the Controller. General of the Exchequer,
Mr. SALOMONS asked whether the recent changes
would not allow of the whole business of issuing Exchequer
bills being performed by the Bank of England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed that
it would be desirable the whole business and manufacture
of Exchequer bills should be placed in the hands of the
Bank of England. There were, however, various other points
connected with the duties of the office of the Exchequer
standing for consideration and decision, and the Govern-
ment had therefore thought it convenient to postpone hand-
ling with this matter until the report of the public moneys
committee could be considered, rather than to deal with it

piecemeal.
The vote was then agreed to,.
On a vote of £25,333 for salaries and expenses connected
with the office of Commissioner of Works and Public Build-
ings,

Mr. PEASE asked how it was there were two assistant
surveyors of works ?

Mr.o 0 \V PER said one was the assistant surveyor in Lon-
don, and the other the assistant surveyor out of London.

The vote was agreed to.
On a vote of M 8,703 fur the salaries and expenses of the
office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenue.

Mr. A. SMITH then moved the rejection of the vote.
Sir J. TRELAWNY also urged the rejection of the vote
on the ground that certain returns made necessary by act
of Parliament had not been rendered to the house.
The committee divided—
For the vote 176
Against it
Majority —l62
The vote was agreed to.
On the vote of £13,753 to defray the expenses of the
State Paper -office,
Mr. HENNESSY asked whether the place occupied by
Mr. Turnbull, formerly engaged in this office, but turned
away, had been filled up by the Government ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government did not turn
Mr. Turnbull away. He resigned, and his resignation was
accepted. An inquiry was now going on in reference to the
matter, which he thought might be concluded to-morrow—
(hear)—and therefore he would not discuss it further.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought it right that he should state
Mr. Turnbull had proceeded against the Secretary of the
Protestant Alliance Society for damages, and it would not
be fitting to discuss the matter in this house.
The vote was agreed to.
£181,711 to defray the expenses of tho administration of
the poor law boards in England and Ireland was voted.
Lord J. MANNERS remarked that the Queen's birth-
day was to be celebrated on Wednesday, and he asked if
the house was to sit on that day ?
I ;Lord PALMERSTON said, as her Majesty was not in
town, and there was no drawing-room, he saw no reason
why the house should not sit as usual.
The house then mimed.
EAST INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE) BILL.
This bill as amended was considered and agreed to.
APPROPRIATION OF SEATS (SUDBURY AND
ST. ALBANS) BILL.
Upon the motion that this bill should be considered as
amended,
Mr. COLLINS, in moving at page 2, line 21, to leave out
"Pontefract" and insert " Wakefield" as the place of no-
mination for the southern division of the West Riding, dis-
claimed treating the question as a political one, and said it
was purely a Yorkshire question, to be determined by York-
' shiremen. He believed the majority of people in the county
were in favour of Wakefield, and he found that the propor-
tion of electors nearest to Wakefield was 13,325, and nearest
to Pontefract only 4,564, or about 3 to 1. He hoped there-
fore that members on both sides of the house, irrespective
of political considerations, would support his proposal.
Mr. M. MILNES opposed the motion. Wakefield con-
tained a very large population, and was the scene of tumul-
tuous proceedings at elections, while Pontefract would not
only be more central, but was a place where elections would
be calmly and orderly"conducted.
Major EDWARDS, as a Yorkshireman, wished to say
something on this question, and should be surprised if every
Yorkshire member did not avail himself of the same oppor-
tunity to do so.' (Laughter.) He earnestly hoped that
Wakefield would be continued as the place of nomination, as
it possessed better railway accommodation than Pontefract,
and contained all the public offices belonging to that part o
the county.
Mr. HADFIELD characterised Pontefract as one of the
most corrupt places in the country,and advocated the claims
of Sheffield. (Laughter.) He hoped Pontefract would not
be insisted upon, but that some convenient and accessible
place would be selected.
Sir G. C. LEWIS thought that the house would be placed
in an embarrassing and painful position if they rejected
Pontefract, because they would be called upon to decide
upon the rival claims of Wakefield and Sheffield. The hon.
gentleman who made the motion proposed Wakefield in-
stead of Pontefract, and the hon. member proposed Shef-
field. He hoped the house would imitate the lawyer in the
fable, by giving one shell of the oyster to Wakefield and
the other to Sheffield, leaving the middle or oyster itself to
Pontefract. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The house then divided--
For the amendment 107
Against 9l-13
The announcement was received with cheers.
On the motion that Wakefield stand part of the clause,
Sir G. C. LEWIS said that as between Wakefield and
Sheffield he preferred the former.
Mr.HADFIELD opposed the introduction of Wakefield.
He thought Sheffield had the best claim.
The house was cleared for a division, but none took place,
the introduction of Wakefield being agreed to.
The bill was then ordered t 6 be read a third time.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT AMENDMENT
(No. 2) BILL.
The house went into committee on this bill.
Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2, which proposed to give the mayor the right
of taking the chair at meetings of justices within the
borough,
Mr. NEWDEGATE opposed the clause. The Court of
Queen's Bench decided unanimously that under the exist-
ing law the mayor had of right :no authority to take the
chair. He thought that a discretion should be left to the
justices in this matter. There might be a mayor who was
totally incompetent to preside, and it would not be right
or
proper that such a person should be the chairman all
the meetings of the justices within the borough. ofThe
opinion of the Court of Queen's Bench was that the prece-
denceo intended to be given to the mayor was social and not
magisterial. (Hear, hear.) He moved the omission of
the
clause.
Mr. DANBY SEYMOUR moved the adjournment of
the debate. It was too important to be discussed at that
hour (two o'clock).
Mr. AD DERLEY hoped the Government would agree
as they well knew, the
had no obj eetion
to the motion for adjournment.
Sir G. LEWIS did not believe the clause had the great
immapyoorrtsa nweeer
e attributed
persons
ft o it , because,
respectability.
He
to the adjournment.
The debate was then adjourned.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE AND TURN-
PIKE TRUSTS ARRANGEMENTS BILLS.
These bills were read a second time.
COUNTY SURVEYORS (IRELAND) BILL.
The bill as amended was considered.
COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS BILL.
c
This bill passed through committee.
PUBLIC
amendments OFFICESaiet4
were 9n siEXTENSIONereaanBciIL.
the Lords'
agreed
to,

Mr. CAIRD complained there was a charge which did
not appear on the vote for the management of the Wools
and Forests in the shape of commissions and fees to sur-
veyors and others, amounting, he believ3d, very nearly to
as much as the sum then asked for. He thought that was
a vast waste of the public money. With regard to Scot-
land, he should propose to reduce the present vote by the
amount of £l,OOO, that being the salary paid to the Scotch
commissioners.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY contended the committee was
;MA 44 a position to cuter upon this vete at all, By the, 11th

EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY BILL.
I This bill was read a second time.

LANDLOTD AND TENANT LAW AMENDMENT
(IRELAND) ACT PROCEEDINGS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS PREVENTION (No. 2)
BILL.
Viscount RAYNIIAINI moved the second reading of this
bill, which was opposed by Mr. HENNESSY and others.
The second reading was negatived.
UNIVERSITY ELECTIONS BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the bill,
Mr. BOUVERIE moved that the third reading should
be postponed. The bill had never been discussed.
After some discussion,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said ho
had strong objections to the bill as it stood, and he was pre-
pared to state them at length, but at the present late hour
it was perhaps better that the debate should be adjourned.
(Cries of " Divide.")
The house divided—
For the adjournment
Against
• Majority —7
On the motion that the bill be read a third time,
Mr. AYRTON moved the adjournment of the house.
Mr. MOWBRAY opposed the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER remarked
that the house had no opportunity of considering the new
principle of voting by proxy introduced into the bill.
Mr. HUNT said the right hon. gentleman ought to have
made his objection in committee.
Sir G. LEWIS said that he agreed to the report on the
distinct understanding that time would be allowed for the
discussion of the third reading. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. DODSON complained of the conduct of the Govern-
ment in offering this opposition to the last stage of this bill,
without any notice of their intention to oppose it.
The house divided—
For the adjournment 25
Against
Majority
Mr. FREELAND moved the adjournment of the debate.
Sir M. FARQUHAR said that if the Government gave a
day for the discussion of the third reading the opposition to
the Government would be withdrawn. If not, he hoped
they would remain in their places till ten o'clock in the
morning. (Oh, oh.)
Lord PALMERSTON proposedto give Wednesday week
for the discussion. (Oh.) If it did not come on on that day
he would fix an early day after.
Mr. DODSON would agree to the adjournment if the
noble lord fixed a day on this side of Wednesday week.
The house divided—
For the adjournment 24
Against
Majority —B
Sir C. DOUGLAS moved the adjournment of the house.
Lord PALMERSTON proposed Friday next for the ad-
journment, which was accepted by Mr. Dodson.
The house then adjourned at a quarter-past three.

COUNTRY MARKETS.

COLCHESTER-JULY 6.

The growing crops look very healthy. A short supply of
wheat. Best samples at rather over the prices of last
week ; inferior unsaleable. Spring corn in little demand,
at late rates.

Wheat, white s6s to 62s Beans, Mazagan..364 to 42s
red 44s to 56s Middle & small 38s to 44s
Barley —s to —s White peas 44s to 48s
Oats —s to —s Grey,. 38s to 440