The Sun.
London, England, 1859-07-06 00:00:00

mate personal defence against attacks which he thought
had been made by myself and by two of my colleagues in
the present Government. But I cannot say that the same
line of conduct has been pursued by all the members of the
late Administration. One noble earl, who for some time
which held the office of President of theßoard of Control, told us,
with that strength of language stereotypes every
thought that comes from his lips, that he believed with the
certainty of prophecy that an attempt at invasion would be
made. (Cheers from the Opposition.) I feel reluctant, my
lord, to continue the contemplation of such an event—
)--and it is some comfort to me to reflect that pros
pheey when uninspired-is one of the most fallacious guides
in the political conduct of the world. Another noble earl,
who held one of the highest offices in the late Government,
observed, during the last year, a singular silence upon pub-
lic affairs, but the very moment he got free frdm the reins,
like the postboy of Cowper, he galloped about without
thinking what mischief he might inflict, or where he
might place his foot. (A laugh.) I do think that when
that noble lord, in defiance of all international law, and in
defiance of the feelings of a great maritime Power, our
neighbour, declared what his ideas were of the limits of the
British shore, he ought to have recollected that such re-
marks were but ill fitted to preserve the peaceful character
of our foreign relations- (Hear, hear.) And now, my lords,
we have this evening been addressed upon the same subject
with greater weight, greater moderation, and greater tem-
per. But lam not sure that the noble and learned lord
opposite has been judicious in all he has said. If a feeling
of hostility does exist, as he says it does—not on the part of
the Emperor Napoleon, bat on the part of the French
people—l am not certain that his speech will tend to allay
it. When he points out in the most marked way the de-
fenceless character of our shores,—when at the same time
he boasts of our former victories,—and when he makes
something like insinuating and sneering allusions both to
the Government and the people of France, —I am afraid
that coming from such lips as his, such language is not cal-
culated to maintain a friendly feeling between the two coun-
tries. (Hear.) When you consider how mush irritated a
majority of the public and of Parliament were last year by
the foolish expressions of a few foolish French colonels,
isolated in their garrison towns, and smarting under an
attempted assassination of their Emperor and commander,
you willhe able to estimate the effect which such language
as we have heard to-night is likely to produce upon a people
so sensitive as the French. (Hear, hear.) Again, my
lords, I have to ask myself whether such speeches are ne-
cessary to stimulate our countrymen at home. I believe
they are not. It is impossible to read the language of the
public press, or the speeches made at public meeting's, or to
seethe points upon which even theologians think the election
of a member for Oxford University ought to tarn—(a laugh)
—without being aware of the readinesswith which the people
areprepared to make pecuniary sacrifices in order to preserve
the inviolability of our shores, and maintain the national
honour. (Hear, hear.) A proper feeling in that respect
already exists, and the only fear is that it may be excited
beyond its legitimate work. The noble and learned lord has
talked of invasion, but that I believe is at the present mo-
ment out of thequestion. While we are on the best possible
tennis with the 'United States, while Russia is notoriously
not prepared for war, and while France is engaged in a
bloody and costly contest in Italy, we are certainly not in
danger of an invasion. But what we all feel is, that it would
be absolute folly for a great and rich country like England
not to take those permanent precautions which at all times
will relieve us, not only from invasion itself, but from the
very alarm of invasion, so injurious as it might be to our
commerce. (Hear.) Political experience teaches us that if
we excite a feeling to an unnatural degree it will be followed
by a reaction, and the probability is that if the people are
too much agitated now they may at some future time be
seized with a fit of economy which will prevent the Govern-
ment of the day from continuing those permanent means of
defence which are absolutely necessary for the protection of
the country. (Hear.) I now come to the conduct of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and to the question whether it is neces-
sary to stimulate them with regard to this most important
subject. My noble friend (the Duke of Somerset) has had
occasion to make in this house explicit declarations upon
this subject, and I am glad to have the opportunity of re-
peating that those declarations are not mere expressions of
individual opinions, but the authorised statement of the
views of the whole of the Cabinet intrusted with the Govern-
ment of the country. I know nothing in the character of
Lord Palmerston, the head of the Government, which should
excite alarm in this respect. I believe that all who have seen
anything of that noble lord know that for years there has
been no man, except perhaps the late Duke of Wellington,
who, both in private and in public, has more anxiously
pressed the importance of maintaining our defences in a pro-
per state of preparation than he has done. (Hear.) Some
doubt may have been created by what fell from the noble and
learned lord with regard to the state of the navy at the be-
ginning of last year, which was cheered by the noble earl
opposite (the Earl of Hardwicke), and which must have
been founded upon a statement made by the noble earl him-
self the other day, that at that time the navy was in a state
of " weakness, impotence, and decrepitude.' ;("Hear " from
Lord Hardwicke.) The noble lord cheers, but I really ven-
ture to ask him how he reconciles that cheer with the state••
ment made by the head of the department concerned last
year ? (Hear.) Ido not wish to trespass upon your lord-
ships' attention, but perhaps I may be allowed to give you
a very short sketch of what has occurred with regard to the
navy. (Hear.) The noble and learned lord referred to the
great difference in the comparison between the forces of
France and England which resulted from the application
of steam to navigation. No sane person can doubt that
whereas it had formerly been impossible for the French
nation to equal us in sailing vessels, as soon as steam was
introduced the terms became equal and the race equal to
both countries. In the year 18.52, however, we were supe-
rior to the French in steam vessels by, I think, 52 ships.
During the war we maintained our superiority both in the
Baltic and in the Black Sea. At that time I think 284
ships besides 107 mortar vessels, were added to the navy.
In 1858 we had 16 ships in excess of the number possessed
by the French, and although it might be true that we were
deficient in frigates, we had 224 small steam vessels more
than they had. At the cessation of the war 4he country
required, and to a certain extent reasonably required, a re-
duction of our forces. The Government did not entirely
comply with those requisitions. They reduced the navy, but
instead of returning to its condition previous to the war,
they went back to the standard of %the first year of pre-
parations for war, which exceeded the peace establishment
by about 1,000 men, and in the shipbuilding department
by about 50 per cent. Last year a cry arose in the coun-
try, which was most eloquently enforced by Mr. Disraeli
in Parliament, that not only our civil but also our military
and naval expenditure must be reduced in proportion to
the reduction of our taxation. The charges which were
made against the then head of the Admiralty (Sir C.
Wood) were that he was spending too much money and
building too large ships. Her Majesty's late Government
acceded to power, and ten days afterwards Sir J. Faxing
•
ton went down to the House of Commons and said that the
navy estimates of the preceding Government were so large
that the Ministry could not take the responsibility of pro-
posing them to Parliament without due and mature delibe-
ration. (Hear.) They took one month to consider the
matter, and then Sir J. Pakington in his place in Parlia-
ment proposed reductions under three not unimportant
heads—the wages in the dockyards, the purchase of steam
engines for ships, and the extension of Keyham yard ; and
he defended these reductions on the ground that the Go-
vernment after ample inquiry and careful deliberation had
come to the conclusion that those reductions could be made
without in the slightest degree impairing the efficiency of
the navy. (Hear, hear.) Sir C. Wood remonstrated with
him, and in reply to his remonstrances Sir J. Pakington
proved or endeavoured to prove that Sir C. Wood's calcu-
lations were erroneous, that there was a greater difference
between the French and English fleets than he supposed,
and that with regard to weight and number of guns espe-
cially, the latter was greatly superior. His whole argu-
ment was to show that Sir C. Wood was wrong in propos-
ing such large estimates, while the Government was quite
right in reducing them. (Hear, hear.) Later important
intelligence was received by the Government as to great
activity in the French dockyards. I believe that this great
activity commenced after the change of Government took
place ; but whether that was so or not, it certainly afforded
a sufficient stimulus for exertion on our side. Well, but
her Majesty's late Government did not then either propose
large additional estimates to the House of Commons, nor
did they on their own responsibility spend large sums of
- money for the expenditure of which they might subse-
quently be indemnified. What they did was this. They
diverted workmen from the establishment for repairs
to the conversion of ships, which otherwise could not
have been effected. They converted four ships—that may
have been right, but at the same time they sacrificed
an: amount of money which might have been usefully
employed in other repairs, and they energetically pressed
the completion of eight ships of the line, which were almost
ready to be launched when the previous Government re-
tired. lam real/ afraid of wearying your lordships aith.
these details, and do not refer to them with the slightest
intention of throwing blame upon the late Government. On
the contrary, I am read
of this year they have shyowato admit that from the beginning
activity in increasing the the most laudable energy and
navy to the greatest possible ex-
tent. Within a recent period they have
large, u have prepared additional
estimates. Those estimates are
them to be strictly necessary, and when
I believe
their discussion in another place it the time comes for
will be found that
there is any difference, it is that the noble duke near me
(the Duke of Somerset) has in some c
fur-
ther than her Majesty's late Govenrmes looked a little
It is not necessary for me to enter intoe defence
hear.)
army. The noble earl opposite (the Earl oeffeDnceerboyf) th
statedtce Nv when
lider_
re-
peated the other day what he so handsomely
he took office—viz , that he was surprised a.t
fully efficient army which he found in this
quite admit that the army which we now possess'istinunot7l;.rgie
enough to meet any great force coming suddenly
and I think it is clearly the duty of the Goverintonlituso'
direct its attention to these questions of the army, and to
defending our arsenals so as, if possible, to make them ilia,.
pregnable, to consider most carefully those applications of
practical science which have already produced weapons of
so deadly a character, and, moreover, to consider the very
important point of the means of defence against such mur-
derous weapons when directed-against ourselves. To these
must be added the question of the embodied militia, the ex-
perience of which has, I believe, been most satisfactory
to the country, and of other systems. I do not know
anything that would be more likely to be valuable as a
means of defence than the formation of volunteer corps of
artillery, while I believe that rifle corps will also afford con-
siderable assistance. It will also be the duty of the Govern-
ment to consider how far they can encourage the napeforion
of a reserve. I beg, however, to state explicitly that r-
son in this house is more convinced of the nectessity. of put-
. ting our national defences proper rd han is every
member of her Majesty's Government. There is no desire
on our part to conceal our preparations from foreign nations.
We have no reason to be reluctant to explain to them that,
Europe
however much we may deplore that a
should be
arming, yet when all Europe does arm, we cannot be left
entirely behindhand in the race, and that we require to be
placed in such a position as shall give us the influence
which we ought to have in the councils of Europe when
the proper opportunity comes for restoring peace, and shall
enable us to ensure the conditions most favourable to the
happinesS and interests of all who are concerned. But while
Ave are engaged in this difficult, this responsible, and this
all important task, while you allow us to retain our seats on
this bench! I think we may
have confidence to ask and
our
grdships to give us your support and your assistance,
a
io!: in any way to embarrass nit—a result which cannot be
3cuTed if on every occasion of our meeting we all rush
-ti sraultuously into the consideration and discussion of ques-
..e ions of the most delicate character. (Cheers.)
The Earl of HARDWICKE had listened with great
,ensure to the speech of his noble and learned friend,

which he concurred with the noble lord opposite (Lord
Stratford de Redcliffe) in thinking both patriotic and use-
ful. It offered to the public a calm and temperate state-
ment of the condition in which this country might be
placed under circumstances which we had a right, not,
he trusted, to anticipate as rapidly approaching, but, at
least, to contemplate as possible. There was nothing
improper in a member of their lordships' house calling
the attention of the country to its defensive condition at
a time like the :present, and the noble and learned lord
had treated the question simply in that light. But the
noble lord opposite, instead of treating the question
in that patriotic spirit which might have been antici-
narrowed it to a mere party question
gated from him, had
as to whether a ship more or less had been built by this or
that Government. He seemed to think that he himself was
assailed for something which he had never done, whereas
the noble and learned lord had not meant to
throw the
slightest reflection on any Gov
(Lo ernment. (Hear, hear.) Ac-
cording to the noble earl, he rd Hardwicke) was one of
those gentlemen who, when the dragohain of office was taken
off, galloped to all sorts of conclusions ; but the sooner the
noble earl and his colleagues galloped to the conclusion that
the low water mark of the French shore was the natural
line of defence of this country the better for all parties.
What he meant when he laid that down the other night
was that we ought to be in a position to blockade the French
porta, to shut] up . their fleets or else to compel them to
accept battle on their own coast instead of on ours. He had
certainly never been so foolish as to say that the British
Channel was the property of the British people. (Hear.)
If England were to turn an aggresive nation, the mode of
keeping her within bounds the French naval officers would
recommend would be to make the British Channel, so called,
a French channel, and to blockade the English fleets in
their own ports. It was to the importance of putting our
navy in such a position that at the commencement of a war
we might be able to shut up an enemy's fleet that the noble
and learned lord had particularly addressed hlroself. It
would be too late to begin to build ships and prepare arma-
ments when the war began ; if we meant to defend the
country we must begin to arm now. (Hear.) As to. the
party question, it was perfectly true, that in Sir C. Wood's
time we had a considerable superiority in numbers of steam
vessels over the French, but how was the superiority made
ded line-of-battle-ships, we were weaker
up ? In gunboats of which the French
.had 28 and we 160.
(Hear). As regar
than France by two or three, and very considerably weaker in
the matter of frigates. (Hear.) No doubt, Sir John Pakington
did offer to reduce, or did actually reduce thenaval estimates
of his predecessor by a certain amount. Of the official
nothing, aton. on which he based that reduction he knew
but as soon ash the attention of Government be-
came directed to the condition of the navy they at once set
to work to improve it. The manner in which the navy had
been managed by the Whig Government was this. A core
fain amount of money was taken from Parliament for the
construction of ships ; but were those ships constructed ?
Not at all. Suppose money was taken for three ships—or,
in architectural language, for 24-Bths--only 3-Bths, or 4-
Bths, or 5-Bths would be built, and the rest of the money
was devoted to other purposes in the yard. A high autho-
rity had stated that for many years the programme had
never been followed out; so that while the public believed
that the navy was going on in the ratio of votes granted,
the money was spent on other purposes, The late Govern-
ment determined to produce the most they could for the
money, and instead of frittering it away on repairing and
altering ships which would never bed
f the steam
they set
themselves to increasing the strengtof the steam navy.
This year they came to Parliament for money to strengthen
it still further, so that at the close of this year we should
have 50 line-of-battleships, and 56 or 58 at the close of 1861.
During the late recess the Government, on their own re-
nsibility, had offered a bounty to induce seamen to enter
the navy, and altogether they had left the whole of this
naval question on such a footing that, if the noble duke op-
posite, now the head of the Admiralty, followed up the mea-
sures of his predecessors, this country might depend on hav-
ing a powerful navy forthcoming whenever an emergency
arose. We ought to raise our fleet to 100 sail of the line and
not grudge the cost. We might depend upon it that although
that force would not be needed, yet by doing so we should
be laying out our money in the very best possible manner.
We should thereby strengthen our alliances— (hear)—and
empower our Foreign Secretary to speak in a tone such as he
could not at present use when addressing foreign Powers.
(Hear.) We should thereby render our commerce se
nced
cure
wherever the British flag floated. He was firmly convi
that the man who ruled the French nation would rejoice
at a considerable augmentation of our naval strength,
because it would furnish him with a powerful argument
against such of his subjects as desired an invasion of this
country by France. He believed that that ruler would
much rather quiet than stimulate that desire of invasion,
and would be glad to see the maritime power of this coun-
try raised to a considerable pitch, that the question might
not be pressed upon him as to whether he should make war
upon England or not. (Hear, hear.)
The Duke of SOMERSET regretted that a question of
such grave importance as that of the naval defences of this
country had been treated as it had been by the noble and
learned lord. (Hear.) In the observations which he him-
self made the other evening upon this subject he carefully
abstained from saying anything to irritate the feelings of
any other nation. He had nothing to do with that Govern-
ment which had been charged with neglecting the state of
our naval establishment ; bat he must say that he was
rather surprised that the Conservative Government, which
took so much credit for having increased our naval force,
should have been so long in office *before they undertook to
remedy the defective state of the navy, even after they were
informed, not indeed of the superiority, but of the growing
increase of the French navy. That information reached
them, according to the records of the Admiralty, in July,
1858. Why did they not at once submit to Parliament in-
creased estimates for the navy ? But nothing of that kind
was done. On the contrary, the works in the dockyards
were reduced. But he admitted that at last the late Go-
vernment did come to Parliament and state the growing
increase of the French navy, and that they vigorously set
to work to improve the state of our own navy. He greatly
regretted the exciting language which their lordships had
just heard. If such language were persevered in it would
be necessary to have not only a peace but a war establish-
ment. (Ministerial cheers.) There was no peace whatever
in the language of the noble and learned lord. All he
said was for war. (Hear, hear.) That language was
calculated to excite the passions of England and France.
The noble and learned lord might have given the
Government very useful information, and shown
them that it was their duty to increase the fortifications of
this country, but instead of doing so he had used exciting
languagewhichwould be spread throughout the country, and
which, as it came from a man of so much eminence, and from
a man who had recently taken so distinguished a part in
foreign policy, would have a very bad effect. He well remem-
bered the strong language which the noble and learned lord
used not long ago when pleading the cause of Italy. His
sympathies were then with Italy, but they were now utterly
gone, and nothing remained but his anger with France.
During the short time that he (the Duke of Somerset) had
been in office he had done everything in his power to increase
the power of this country by sea. He had thought it his
been b continue works in the dockyards which had, indeed,
been begun by the late Government, but which would have
been discontinued had they remained in office, and he had
thereby prevented the dismissal of about 3,000 men in the
dockyards next autumn. He hoped the people of this
country would net be induced by exciting language to de-
mand armaments on a war scale, for the putting of arma
ments on that scale led to war. He thought it was our duty
to steadily increase our armaments, but heNvould not adopt
the language of the noble and learned lord, who said that
we must at once prepare for defence in every quarter of the
globe where the English flag floated. (Hear,
ll hear.)
sides of
Lord BROUGHAM said they were agreed on a
the house, without. any one exception, on the expediency,
nay, he would say the necessity, of defensive preparations—
(hear, hear)—and that without any invidiousness towards
either foreign nations or their rulers, but simply on account
of the posture of affairs in Europe, which was swarming
with great armies under the control of a veryfew individuals
of absolute and unlimited power. We were bound to prepare
for our own defence, happen what might, without expecting
1 anything to happen, without dreading that anything would
happen. He deeply lamented what had been voken that night
as to the feelings of the French people with regard to an
invasion of England. He positively denied that that feel-
ing was such as had been represented. (Cheers.) There
was no desire on the part of the French people for a war
with England. There was an almost universal desire on
their part to maintain peace. He would say with respect
to the Russian, the Austrian, and the French rulers, that
it was not safe to allow a man in great power to encroach
ever so little beyond their own territories. There was an
old maxim that if you allowed people to go but a very little
beyond the line that separated right hem wrong they were
very apt to go a great deal further without your leave. Ho
was not bound to express either confidence or distrust in
foreign rulers, but wo ought certainly to trust to ourselves.
(Hear.) We ought to rely upon ourselves for our defence
happen what might. There was but one opinion as to the
positive necessity of our being well prepared in the present
state of Europe. We had no distrust of foreign nations,
and they had no right to complain of our being prepared
when they were prepared. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of E LLENBOROUGH said—l have only avert'
few words to offer, but I cannot leave the house with satis-
faction to myself without taking the opportunity of expres-
sing to my noble and learned friend my most grateful
thanks for the great service which, in my opinion, he has
performed. (Hear, hear.) My noble and learned friend
has put an end to that fatal course of self-deception in
which this country has for so many years been indulging.
(Hear, hear.) He has distinctly placed before the house
and the piplic the picture of what we were and what we
are—of what we are under circumstances the most perilous
which have occurred for the last half century. I feel con-
vinced that upon the most mature after reflection my noble
and learned friend will not find one word in the great speech
which he has delivered to-night which he would desire to
alter. (Cheers.) My lords, the people of this country
have, by almost all who have been in the habit of addres-
sing them at public meetings, been led to think much more
of the past than of the present, and not at all of the future.
They have been resting on the memory of past glories, and
they have been imagining they were only on the morrow of
'Waterloo and Trafalgar. That is not my feeling, and it is
UPouneithat:
now 12 years since I took the opportunity of calling atten-
tion to the great changes which had then taken place in the
year 1815, and urging
the embodiment of the militia, if that should not give the
nheeseeseofthEeuradooppetiosinn coef thesome other measures than
requisite security. (Hear, hear.) I have since upon several
occasions pres.ed the ' 'derations upon the public.
Of all the ti' same considerations
sea, because we have, in additione to our own territory, our
leeoslsonvoiesnaenrlda great commerce to defend t
blur: of Euro we are the most vulnerable at
nations on land, because • and if we were
frontier. On all sider
we are more vulnerable than all other
not a naval superiority to
e we have a' much . _
I, larger exposed
to-night to change the la
we are exposed to attack It we
.have
and counsels of
adopt a course of conduct
use who advocate armamentsn
i fh
ei elle s.
protectgu us. We have been desired
age which those are disposed to
members of the Legislaturveeli prudence, and to
liberty of speech take refuge inconsistent with our duty as
is not to be permitted to take
refuge in this house ? (C what part of the world will
circum-
stances of the war, and how has (Cheers.)
What are the
both sides of the house, I believe, since War been described on
solution ? I have heard the word iniquitous Wa
met after the dis-
solution
is certainly a war without justificatilouitmle applied to it.
if the object be a good one, it is, not justifiable
(Cheers.) Even
and bad means to accomplish it. (Hear.)
tillable by wrong
be-
lieve, nor do I think any one believes, that the do not
object of the war is the real one. (Cheers.)
wretended
hoer
war declared to be for the purpose of changing the existingthe
distribution of Power in Europe, which has lasteeie
touched from the Treaty of Vienna to the present time.
We see it conducted by such an extraordinary force as
natu-
rally to produce alarm in the mind of any one in this coun-
try. (Hear, hear.) France in this war appears almost as
a new rower in Europe. If it be true—and I accept the

declaration of the Emperor that he made no preparations—
it is on that account I entertain the greatest alarm. If,
without any previous preparation, the Emperor of France
can in six or eight weeks place 200,000 men perfectly
equipped for military operations in the centre of Northern
Italy—if he can send 80,000 men by sea most rapidly with
most perfect arrangements, with all that is required of mu-
nitions of war, and provisions carefully packed as if there
had been forethought, and as if intended for transmission
by sea—if, in addition to that, in a small space of time, he
can place from 30,000 to 40,000 men in a powerful fleet in. the
Adriatic, and there effect a descent and a rehearsal of the
invasion of this country—when I see these these things
done, when I see the diminished force of this country,
as detailed by my noble and learned friend, in
comparison with the force of France, I do feel
apprehensive, and I do feel that it is the bounden
duty of Government and of Parliament to place
this country in a state of unattackable security. (Cheers.)
lam not satisfied with the expressions of the noble earl.
I am not satisfied that merely ordinary means should be
adopted. What I desire is that the country shall be placed
in that degree of unattackable security, that strength shall
be restored to our diplomacy, that we may be able really to
interfere with effect in putting an end to this war and pre-
venting the commencement of any other. (Cheers.) Until
we do that all our diplomacy is valueless. I have often
heard of moral influence. Moral influence varies exactly
as the amount of physical force behind it. No one, I thin
of
k,
unless inspired with a feeling hardly English, can speak
the present ruler of France as one calculated to exercise
moral influence in Europe ; yet no man in Europe has
more moral influence because no man commands greater
force. (Hear, hear.) 'And noble lords opposite may end
upon it that, until they place this country in a degree of se-
curlty which renders it hopeless for France or any other
Power to attempt to attack our shores, all efforts to termi-
nate the war by intervention and negotiation will be entirely
Without avail. (Cheers.) During the last 11 years, since
. 1848, all the Powers of Europe have been endeavouring,
partly from distrust of each other, and partly from distrust
of their own subjects, to increase their military force. They
have effected that. object ; they have effected it by great
financial sacrifices. I dread both their financial weakness
and their military strength, because I know that against
the burdens to which they have been submiting their only
hope of remedy and relief is by la combined war on this
country. (Hear, hear.) It is not safe for this country to
remain unarmed in the midst of armed nations, always
rivals, and often engaged in hostility to each other. When
one nation determines to apply all her energies to making
money, and another to making preparations for war, it is
obvious enough with which of the two nations all the
money will ultimately be. I trust the Government will
adhere precisely to the expressions which first fell from
them; but I confess I am not perfectly satisfied with what
fell from the noble earl to-night. (Hear, hear.) I feel there
is a slight variatidn from the decided course which in the
first instance they said they were fully determined to
pursue. I trust they will adhere absolutely to that course,
as I believe it is by that only they will secure the confidence
of Parliament and the safety of the country. (Cheers.)
The Duke of ARGYLL could assure the noble earl that
his suspicions were entirely. unfounded. The Government
had not altered their mind, but night after night noble
lords were raising their demands, and if the speech of the
noble and learned lord indicated his opinion of what was
necessary for the defence of the country the Government
would at once have to bring in a war budget and make the
navy equal to the combined navies of the whole world. If,
at a moment of excitement like the present, the Govern-
ment were to propose such estimates, it might stop clamour
for a time, but when the alarm was over there would be a
complete reaction, and the Government having to retrace
all their steps would leave the country in a worse position
than they found it. There was another point with respect
to which he wished to say a few words before he resumed
his seat. The present war had been described as an ini-
quitous war on the part of France and Sardinia, and he
could assure the house that it was with the utmost reluct-
ance that the Government had deemed it to be their duty
to sit silent during the recent discussions which had taken
place on the subject. Now, he did not mean to say that
circumstances of very grave anxiety with respect to the
origin of the war did not exist, but he begged mostdecidedly
to dissent from the opinion which without argument would
assume that the present war was one of an iniquitous cha-
racter so far as France and Sardinia were concerned. Such
an opinion would be inconsistent with the language held by
the late Government, for it would be blind in the papers
which were to be discussed on Friday next that the war
had been denounced by the noble lord the late Secretary
for Foreign Affairs as resting entirely on the head of Aus-
tria, which it certainly did in so far at least as that it was
she who took that last step which had led to the immediate
commencement of hostilities.
The Duke of RUTLAND said he thought their lordships
owed a great debt of gratitude to the noble and learned lord
who had brought the subject under discussion before the
house. It was, he thought, of the utmost importance
that the country should be placed in such a position of
defence as that we need not be under the necessity of rely-
ing for our security on any man or any nation—(hear,
hear)—and he could assure the noble duke who had just
spoken that there was no occasion to be alarmed at any re-
action on the score of expenditure for that purpose taking
place in the minds of the people of England, so long as
great armaments such as at present existed were maintained
on the continent of Europe. (Hear, hear.) When the war
in Italy came to a termination and those armaments were
decreased, it would be time enough to look for that change
of public opinion which the noble duke seemed to appre-
hend. He did not mean to contend that this country would
be invaded by France, but he knew with how little certainty
the most far-seeing statesman could predict the real course
of events, as was evinced by the tact that they could be in-
duced to place no faith in the anticipations to which he and
his friends had given expression during the great free-trade
struggle as to the possibility, after a peace of 30 years, of
war again breaking out. A war had nevertheless been
waged in 1854 of the most sanguinary character, and it was
in the contest which was then carried on that, in his opi-
nion, the seeds of the present hostilities were sown. Who,
with those facts before his eyes, could be so bold as to say
that there was no possibility of England being invaded by
France ? (Hear.) For his own part he would not be so
i rash as to arrive at any such conclusion, and he should
therefore earnestly impress upon his noble friend the First
Lord of the Admiralty the necessity of rendering as effi-
cient as possible those "wooden walls" which his noble
and learned friend who opened the discussion had so justly
designated as the main defence of the country. In order to
secure that object it was expedient, as his noble and learned
friend had suggested, that there should be an ample supply
of efficient seamen, and he therefore trusted the existing
rules in relation to employment in the merchant service
would be so far modified as to attain that end.
The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned
at eight o'clock. .

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.
Mr. Bagwell took the oaths and his seat for Clonmel,
and Colonel PowIetRIVATE Somerset
BUSINESS.for Monmouthshire.
P
GRIEVE'S DISABILITIES REINIOVAL BILL.
On the motion for the first reading of .this bill, which
came down from the Lords,
Mr. STEWART moved that the bill should be read a
first time in ten days.
Sir G. GREY considered it would be advisable to read
the bill a first time, and when printed it could be carefully
analysed by hon. members, many of whom were ignorant
of its character.
After some conversation the amendment was withdrawn
and the bill was read a first time.
TENANT COMPENSATION (IRELAND).
Mr. MAGUIRE presented petitions from Cork and Kil-
kenny in favour of the adoption of a measure for compen-
sation for improvements by tenants in Ireland.
MEETING OF PARLIAMENT.
Mr. FOSTER gave notice that he would move an address
to her Majesty, stating the inconvenience of Parliament
sitting in the summer months, and to suggest that the
Parliament should be called in August.
PAPER DUTY.

Mr. AYRTON gave notice of a motion for the repeal o
the paper duty.

ANCHORS.
Mr. BE NTINCK moved for a copy of the report of the
Anchor Committee, nominated by the Admiralty, to deter-
mine on the relative merits of different descriptions o
anchors.

THE INDIAN ARMY.
Mr. TORRENS asked the Secretary of State for India
whether, with reference to the report, dated 7th March last,
of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the organisa-
tion of the Indian army, any steps have been taken to effect
the formation of a permanent local army in Bengal, and for
the gradual disbandment or reduction of the levies tem-
porarily taken into British pay during the mutiny of the
native troops in that Presidency.
Sir C. WOOD said ho could not state what steps had
been taken in reference to the first portion of the question,
'and it involved a great number of subjects that required
much consideration. With respect, to the second question
he could not give any positive answer at present.
THE INDIAN EUROPEAN TROOPS.
Mr. VANSITTART asked the Secretary of State for
India whether he had received any information regarding
the excitement which had prevailed amongst the late East 1
India Company's European regiments, consequent upon
the withholding of the alternative of re-enlisting with new
bounty or of being discharged, on the occasion of the trans-
fer of their services to the Crown ; and if so, whether he
had reason to believe that such excitement no longer
existed ?
Sir C. WOOD said that certainly some discontent pre-
vailed amongst the troops in question, arising from their
belief that they had not been fairly treated in being trans-
ferred to the Queen's service. An investigation had been
commenced, and it appeared that in the course the Indian
army had adopted they seemed to have forgotten altogether
the oath they had taken on entering service. He could only
add that the investigation was proceeding.
ATLANTIC STEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY.
Mr. BAXTER asked the First Lord of the Treasury if
the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called
to the contract entered into with the Atlantic Steam Navi-
gation Company, to carry the mails between Galway and
the United States ; and whether they considered it advisable
in the interest of the public that the said contract should,
under certain conditions, be cancelled ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the attention of her Majesty's Government had been called
not only to this particular question, but to the general'sub-
ject of the contracts which had been entered into for
the conveyance of the mails, and the whole system
would be carefully considered. He was anxious that
the subject be brought forward as quickly as pos-
sible, and therefore he gave notice that he would move
for an inquiry into the manners and the circum-
stances under which contracts for the mail service
for some years had been entered into with different Go •
vernments. He could not bring the subject forward earlier
than the day he named, as to-morrow was fixed for other
business.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. AYRTON said that, considering the Govern-
ment had only recently come into office and that the session
was so far advanced he would postpone till next session his
motion fora select committee, to enquire into the operation
awl administration of the laws for the relief of the poor in
Great Britain and Ireland.

amount of the pension to which he was entitled. However,
the situatio, 1 proved anything but lucurative, and for some
years Mr., Ryland was actually out of pocket while
he held it. For some years he endeavoured to ob-
tain compensation, but without success, the Govern-
ment of this country considering that the question should
be decided by the colonial Government by whom it was re-
pudiated. The consequence was, that the unfortunate
gentleman was for years unable to obtain any
redress, and at length succeeded in obtain* only
a .sum of £9,000 as a reward. ,He concluded by en-
treating the house to grant the committee, and to remove
any impression that might be produced as to full justice
not being done in this country to individuals who felt
themselves aggrieved in the colonies.
Mr. FORTESCUE said that this was an old question,
but it had come before the house on the present occasion
in a totally different form to that in which it had previously
presented itself. A few years ago this subject had
been referred to an impartial party, who had made anaward
which Mr. Ryland had accepted. The abolition of Mr.
Ryland's office was an act of the Imperial Parliament. A
great change, was made with reference to the provinces of
Canada which were united, and an entirely new Council, as
well as new officers, had to be elected. It was necessary
that there should be an alteration with reference to Mr.
Ryland, as regarded the office of Clerk in Council. There
were good reasons for his not being appointed to that
office, because he was at the time a very strong political
partisan, and, consequently, not fitted under the circum-
stances for that situation. He was then offered the office
which he accepted as a speculation, and if it did not turn
out as profitable as he expected the Government was not to
blame. It was true that Mr. Ryland made a protest at the
time which Lord Sydenham was prevented from noticing by
his sudden illness. Besides it was the opinion of three
Secretaries of State that the subject was not one for the
consideration of the imperial but the colonial Government.
The house then divided, and there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 235
Majority against the motion —2ls
RAILWAY COMPANIES' ARBITRATION.
Col. W. PATTEN moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable railway companies to settle their differences with
other companies by arbitration.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
COUNTY COURT COMMITMENTS.
Mr. COLLIER moved for leave to bring in a bill to
limit the power of imprisonment for small debts exercised
by the county court judges. The county courts, he said,
had exercised their jurisdiction with great satisfaction to
the country, and only one point remained upon which there
was any dissatisfaction. That point was the power of im-
prisonment. In the superior courts, imprisonment operated
as a discharge from debt, but with county courts it was
otherwise, for the judges of these courts had the power of
imprisoning as a punishment, while imprisonment did not
operate as a discharge of the debt in respect of which it was
incurred. He believed that Parliament intended that the
power of imprisonment should be exercised in cases of fraud
only. This, he conceived, was evident from the language
of the act itself. Some of the county court judges, how-
ever, had construed the act so as to :enable them to com-
mit the defendant merely for non-appearance. The conse-
quence was that a number of poor persons had been sent to
prison who had not been guilty of any fraud, without con-
tempt, and in some cases without injury, for various
periods not exceeding 40 days. This was' unquestionably
a great hardship, which Farliament certainly never in-
tended. In the year 1858, the number of commitments for
non-appearance alone, without any cases of fraud, amounted
to no fewer than 8,361. (Hear.) Tie Lord Chief Baron, in
'a charge to the grand jury of Bedford, had called attention
to this subject, and to the expenses which such commit-
ments entailed upon the county; and in the same charge
the learned judge mentioned that in one case the defendant
had been committed eight times for a single debt, and five
times for another for periods of 30 days each, for non-ap-
pearance. (Hear.) The imprisonment lasted, therefore,
several months. The debt was only £2 15s. in the first
instance, so that, as the cost of maintaining the
defendant was 10s. 6d. per week, it would have been cheaper
for the county to pay the debt at once. In 1857, one judge
committed no fewer than 546 persons, and another 749 ;
while it was understood that the number of commitments
this year would show an increase over those' of 1858 of
about 2,000. (Hear.) By the bill which he (Mr. Collier)
had prepared, he proposed that no county court judge should
be empowered to imprison a debtor merely for non-appear-
ance, or without being satisfied that he had contracted the
debt by fraud, or, which was nearly the same thing, that
he had the means of payment, but withheld payment. He
proposed that no man should be imprisoned upon the same
judgment for a longer period than twice 40 days. (An
hon. member—" That is too long.") Well, he merely pro-
posed that time, leaving the ultimate decision to the judg-
ment of the committee of the house. By such enactments
he believed the efficiency of the county courts would be ma-
terially increased, and many hardships prevented. The
hon. and learned member concluded by moving for leave to
bring in the bill.
Mr. MALIN S seconded the motion, and said it was one
of the misfortunes of this branch of the law, that it was
not administered in the face of a learned and vigilant bar.
He could not have supposed, if he had not heard it said in
that house, that the power of imprisonment had been so
largely exercised. Those abuses ought to be totally abo-
lished, and their repetition watchfully guarded against.
The abolition of the power of imprisonment for debt on
mesne process had been attended with great benefit, and he
conceived it might be abolished in all cases, even in cases
of execution, except upon special application to a judge, and
upon special grounds. He should propose in committee
that imprisonment for non-payment should be limited to
much less than 40 days.
Capt. STEWART mentioned several cases of hardship
upon individuals, particularly females, which had been
caused by the power of commitment, and stated that it had
the effect of materially adding to the burden of the county
rates.
Mr. COCHR A.NE said that in many of these cases per-
sons were committed for contempt of court, and anything
was construed into contempt of court ; and he must say, of
all tyrannies, a legal tyranny was the worst. (Hear.) He
cordially supported the bill.
Mr. HENLEY thanked the hon. member for bringing
this subject before the house. He understood debtors were
treated as criminals. That should be attended to. Then
these parties were considered as fraudulent debtors ; but
when they considered the number of minutes each case took
to dispose of, they might imagine the degree of inquiry that
took place previous to committal.
Mr. CLIVE said it did not seem probable there was in
this house that experience of the nature of these tribunals
which there was elsewhere. His
not isowzec
practice,rkless a
as hndatd beenhatof
most county court judges, was
supposed. The cause was first tried, and in nine cases out
of ten the debt was admitted and the debtor generally
named his own time for payment. If he did not pay, a. judg-
ment summons was issued ; and if the debtor did not ap-
pear, it was generallybecause he did not wish to be examined
as to his means.
The judge then inquired of the creditor as
to his probable means, and decided upon that evidence. If
that was objected to, and if the creditor was to be deprived
of the power of enforcing payment of his debt, then the
house might say so, and abolish compulsory means of en-
forcing payment of debts altogether.
After a few observations from Mr. BRISCOE and Mr.
COLLIER,
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
Captain LEICESTER VERNON rose to move that this
house do resolve itself into a committee to consider of an
humble address to be presented to her Majesty, praying
that she will bo graciously pleased to give directions
that the benefits conferred by the Royal warrant of the 17th
day of December, 1855, upon regimental quartermasters re-
tiring subsequent to the date of the declaration of war
with Russia be extended, so far only as the honorary rank
of captain is concerned, to those regimental quartermasters
who• completed the period of service specified in the
warrant, but who had retired previous to that date.
That motion referred only to 39 soldiers of a great age, all
of whom had served with great honour in the Britisharmy.
Since that motion had been placed on the paper, the autho-
rities had taken their case into consideration, and had pro-
moted these soldiers, for which he begged leave to return
their grateful thanks. He therefore withdrew his motion.
The SPEAKER said it was contrary to the rules of the
house to speak and conclude with no motion.
VOLUNTEER CORPS.
Mr. PALK moved—" That this house shall, upon Tues-
day next, resolve itself into a committee to consider of an
humble uddress to her Majesty, praying that she would be
graciously pleased to give directions that the necessary
arms, accoutrements, and ammunition be furnished to
volunteer rifle corps under the provisions of the Act 44
Geo. 111., c. 54, as well as to artillery corps in maritime
towns, and to assure her Majesty that this house would
make_ good. the same." The circular of the present Go-
vernment had been received with disapprobation by the
country ; but that of.the late Government had been well
received, because it recognised the right of all persons to
arm for, the defence of their country. That was a right
essential to be preserved. France was increasing her navy
and fortifying her shores. -England alone, of all Euro-
pean countries, was quiescent ; Russia was most active is
arming. The introduction of steam enabled our shores to
be attacked by' any foe menacing our shores. The port of
Dartmouth could not be assaulted by sailing vessels, but
lately a French steamer had been known to leave the
coast of France and anchor in that harbour in the middle
of the night, and French vessels had been seen taking
soundings there. Dartmouth was peculiarly susceptible
of defence, for if batteries were erected they might be
left to volunteers until they could be aided by regular
troops. The. plan of the Government was not satis-
factory.• It was proposed to give twenty-five rifles to every
hundred men, 'under certain conditions. He should he
glad to know• whether these were all the arms they were
to receive; and whether the rest was to be found by the men
He was informed that the Government contracts for the
manufacture of arms would prevent private purchases, and
therefore, unless additional facilities were given, there were
no means by which, the public could provide themselves
with the means of defence. There was also great doubt
whether it was intended by Government that the volunteers
should be arranged in companies or in regiments. He had
received a letter from an officer in her Majesty's service who
had taken much interest in this movement, which stated
that uncertainty on the points to which he had referred
preventedsuch rapid progress being made in the formation
of these corps as would otherwise be the case. He thought
these facts opened a very large question. It was a question
for the house and the Govertment to decide, whether they
were going to accept the services of all who might offer
themselses,•and form them into regiments of volunteers.
If they did that, even to supply every 100 with 25 rifles,
would entail a great expense upon the country. But if, on
the other hand, the volunteers were formed simply
into companies, who would be accessories to the regular
defencea of .the country. in case of. need, he thought
they would. come to the proper • conclusion. Such
promptly—(hear,
districtsiiformcoeudldinta
(fliomear-e, formed inar
_ ruralwh e r
ea g,
they would be called off to practice at great distances.
These were- questions of .great .interest to the country.
Under any circumstances the country had a right to de-
mand from the Government that our coasts should be fully
defended against the possibility cf an invasion. There were
hon. members in the house who ridiculed the idea of inva-
octretglnetehnetrs
often twitted -for so . constantly bringing the question be-
sion, and an•hon. and gallant admiral (Sir C. Napier) was
fore them, but lie (Mr. Palk) must say that there were
grave grounds for carefullyconsidering the question. When
he saw on the throue of France a ruler, who though ho
had kept faith with us, had broken it to his own subjects—
when he remembered the language of the French colonels
towards this country not many months ago, and which
raised such a storm of anger and discontent among all
classes—when he recollected the attention that the im-
any undue mistrust in a
mwaenssneoptrdepesairraoluiosnsofmeaxdperebs ysintghe Emperor for the present
war were mei ely to replace the losses caused by the war in
the Crimea—recollecting all these and other facts, while he
ruler whom he preferred to judge by his acts rather than
his words, he must say that he should feel much more con-
fidence if the people of this country were properly drilled
and disciplined to meet any contingency, and the vulner-
able parts of our coast put in a better state of defence than
at present, and with these views he begged to move the
resolution he had placed on the paper. (Hear, hear.)
Captain JERVIS seconded the motion.
11, BERKELEY ev,id ho felt indebted to hie Wu,

friend opposite for bringing forward this question. It
was one which deserved the consideration of the house
and the Government, and was of vast consideration to the
country. There could be no doubt that Englishmen
were less prepared to resist an attack than the people
of any other country in the 'civilised world. The
question simply amounted to this —in the case of
invasion, discipline would enable them to repel it—
without discipline they would become but a fright-
ened rabble —( hear, hear) discipline and courage
were in such cases convertible terms. It appeared to him
that both the late and the present Government were wrong
upon this question, and that, in fact, all recent Governments
had done all in their power to prevent the enrolling of vo-
lunteers. But now that this reluctance had been at least
partially overcome, it was important to see that proper steps
were taken to organise the volunteer corps in the most
effective manner. If the Government did not supply both
arms and clothing, he hoped that, while they gave every
encouragement to the formation of volunteer corps among
the middle classes, they would, at the same time, insist
upon proper praCtising grounds being provided. He had a
letter from a gentleman who, while walking with two ladies,
heard something whistle past him, for which he could not
account. One of the ladies said, "It is too early for cock-
chafers"—(a laugh)—and immediately after another went
past, and into a wall, whereupon the gentleman, with his
knife, extracted it, and found it was a minie bullet. This
was a matter which called for great care and precaution
He would add one more suggestion, and that was, that the
yeomanry, who were a body of volunteers, might be made
much more effective if they were drilled like the Cape of
Good Hope volunteers, to artillery and coast as well as ca-
valry exercise. Having the means of rapid movements at
their command, they could arrive where their services
might be needed sooner than other bodies not so placed.
He would train them to the use of the rifle as well as the
sword. (Hear, hear.)
Col. DICKSON thought it was a matter of great import-
ance that artillery corps should at once be established in
the maritime towns on the coast.
Lord H. VANE said there could be no doubt that their
shores were very inadequately defended ; but it did not fol-
low that volunteer rifle corps were the best to do so. He was
convinced that these corps would not be organised in so
efficient a manner as to render other forces unnecessary.
He believed that in the maritime towns a maritime artil-
lery was absolutely necessary, for certainly in that which
he had the honour to represent there were no defences
whatever. Means should be taken to bring large forces at
the shortest notice upon any given point where an emer-
gency arose ; and such men would be much more efficient
than any rifle corps that could be established. He did not
believe the Government would be able to get at that time
a sufficient number of rifles to satisfy all the demands made_
upon them by the various volunteer corps, and they ought,
therefore, to take the number offered by the Government,
which in his opinion would serve for the ordinary purposes
of drill. The whole question, he repeated ought to be care-
fully considered by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary
at War before any decision was come to on the subject.
Mr. E. DUNCOMBE was of • opinion that, in addition
to their army and the aid given by volunteer corps, their
main reliance should be in the great efficiency of their navy.
Mr. BRISCOE thought the great difficulty arose from
the circumstance that neither the late or present Govern-
ment had made up their minds as to whether the proposed
force of rifle corps should assume a permanent character,
or be used for a temporary purpose. For his own part he
did not think the Emperor of the French meditated an in-
vasion of this country, and he had therefore heard with
great pain the reffections lately made upon a friendly Power
He had behaved towards England with perfect fairness and
honour, and certainly the animadversions and abuse poured
upon him by the press of this country were totally uncalled
, for.

General PEEL said that having been appealed to by the
hon. gentleman, hemight state the views of the late Go-
vernment. .The circular issued by them did not arise
from any fear on their part. Numerous and urgent appli-
cations were, however, made to them for permission to
form rifle corps, on the express understanding that
they were to be of no expense to the country. (Cheers.)
The first application was from Bristol, and no sooner
was that granted, and the Government circular issued, than
numerous applications were made to them to supply rifles.
Those applications were refused on two grounds ; in the first
place, because there were not rifles enough in store to justify
the Government in spreading them all over the country.
The number of rifles then in, store was 170,000, out of which
the disembodied militia were to be furnished. The late Go-
vernment made contracts for the supply of every rifle that
could be produced in this country for the next two years.
They then turned to Belgium, but before entering into con-
tracts with the manufacturers of that country they appiied to
the Belgian Government to know whether their contracts
with Belgian manufacturers were likely to be interfered with,
and whether there was any probability that the rifles would
not be supplied. The Belgian Government replied that there
was no probability of such an event, and contracts were then
made with Belgian manufacturers, Contracts were now
made for every arm that could be supplied in this country, and
the weekly supply had been increased from 1,000 to 1,500,
and yet after supplying the whole of the regular army and
militia there would only be 300,000 rifles in store wherewith
to supply the volunteers if the Government should determine
to arm them. He quite agreed with the right hon. gentle-
man (Mr. S. Herbert) that if the Government gave the vo-
lunteer rifle corps 25 per cent. of rifles for drill and practice
it would be quite sufficient. (Hear, hear.) The companies
would only have one musketry instructor at a time, and 25
per cent. would be quite enough for rifle practice. There
was a great deal for riflemen to learn. Unless, for example,
they learnt the bugle sounds and were acquainted with all
the drill and practice of riflemen, they would be found per-
fectly useless as soldiers. He hoped his right hon. friend
(Mr. Sidney Herbert) would adhere to his determination
that the volunteers should be raised in companies instead
of larger bodies, for they would not then require the de-
gree of drill which would otherwise be necessary, and
such a plan would be much more advantageous. If the
rifle corps were ever called out, it had been the inten-
tion of the late Government to supply them with
everything needful. Meanwhile, however, it should, as
far as possible, be a voluntary movement. Those who pro-
vided themselves with arms and accoutrement were not
likely to join the militia or the regular forces, and it was
very important that the recruiting for those services should
not be interfered with. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentle-
man had represented the number of troops in this country
as much smaller than was actually the case. The number
of troops of one kind or another now in this country, in-
cluding militia. was about 110,000; there was also a larger
force of artillery than at any other time, and he believed
it was in a most efficient state. (Hear, hear.) It was most
important to encourage the proposed volunteer artillery
corps. We had 3,600 guns in position, requiring 10 men
to work each gun, or 36,000. This being so, it-was useless
to talk about putting up more fortifications, for they re-
quired garrisons and troops which we had not got. (sher.)
The most efficient means of protecting our coast was per-
haps by moveable batteries, of which 15 were already com-
plete, and 10 more ordered, so that here would be 150
moveable guns which might be placed on any part of the
coast, and when we had got these batteries composed of
Armstrong guns. they would form the best possible defence
which the country could have. Every effort should be used
to induce the inhabitants of seaport towns to join these ar-
tillery corps ; they should be supplied with ammunition
and guns, and it might be even expedient to pay them for
their services when engaged. If, however, these rifle volun-
teers generally were supplied with arms and ammunition,
many would come forward and join them who would fire
away a great deal of powder, and then perhaps retire from
the corps altogether, for the Government, it should be re-
collected, had no hold upon them whatever. With regard
to our coast defences there were now in course of construce
tion fortifications which would cost £2,000,000, and, includ-
. ing those that were contemplated, £4,000,000 would be
. spent in this way. Now, he thought, on bringing in the
estimates, that the house would do well to consider whether
these were necessary or not. If they were, it was not right
to vote the money. in driblets, and to wait for their com-
pletion at their present slow rate of progress. Not that he
feared invasion, and he believed nothing had ever fallen
from him implying that he had any such dread • but at the
same time they ought always to be prepared.(Hear.) At
the present moment he thought it hardly possible to decide
what fortifications were necessary until the effect of rifled.
guns upon masonry had been fully ascertained,
belief was that fortifications were now being built which
might prove of very little service. As far as recent experin-
and his
meats had gone, the effect of rifled
earthworks than upon masonry. Tt was obviousolso hat
fortifications a 0 yards
guns was less upoat
fortifications constructed to meet a range of -,
would be almost useless against more powerfu artillery.
It It was proper, therefore, to decide what fortificationsapossible.r
necessary, and then to complete them as
soon
flit .made
He believed that these volunteer rifle corps mg
of the greatest possible service. If, however,_ the
de Gat their
would overn-
ment interfered toe much, they probably
own object. The various corps should be left to appoint
their own hours of drill, and to lay down their own rules as
far as possible ; Government in t, ,rference would be likely to
, disgust them, and they would much prefer to be left to
themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ELCHO thought nothing less became a great
country like this than to be in this chronic panic. He
did not stand up to defend the lanuage used towards a
neighbouring potentate either by
. the press or others, but
he heard in another place that night language used by
Lord Lyndhurst, in making a speech on tie national de-
fences—(6, Order," from the Speaker)—he heard Lord
Lyndhurst stating reasons why there should be additional
defences in this country. He (Lord Elcho) did think we
should have some permanent means of defence. He
thanked the hon. gentleman for endeavouring- to encourage
those volunteer corps. Some hon. gentlemen said they
would be of no use—some even said that they would be
only oin the way." Without the pressmiption of putting
his sen opinion against high military authorities, he
thought the upper, the middle, and the intelligent portion
of the artisans would form a large and effective force, but
now, for want of training, they would, in the effent of an
invasion, ba no better than so many old women. How many
even of the members of that house hadheen trained to the
use of arms ? Yet they were able-bodied men, at least their
constituents thought them so, or they would not, expect
them to discharge their duties in the present state of the
Thames. (Hear, hear.) [The stench from the Thames at
this moment was scarcely tolerable.] How many of them,
except those who had been trained to arms, would be of the
slightest use in case of an invasion ? All that was now
proposed was, that the classes he had referred to should re-
ceive such an amount of training and organisation, that hi
the course of a fortnight or three weeks, they would be able
to work together. He calculated that the population of
London alone would furnish 200,000 volunteers. The his-
tory of the Tyrol, La Vendee, Switzerland, and *Garibaldi's
corps furnished proofs of what could be done in a few weeks
by means of such a corps. Those men who joined Gari-
balbi learned their drill in a few weeks, because they be-
longed to the intelligent classes. If we organised corps from
the intelligent classes, there would be no more of these peri-
odical panics. (Hear.) He thought the present Govern-
ment had exercised a wise discretion in offering the volun-
teer corps the proportion of arms which had been stated.
Col. DUNNE said the country should place no depen-
dence on volunteer corps. After all that had been said about
them 5,000 had not been raised yet. The only use he could
see in them was to excite a military spirit which might in
duce men to enlist for regular warfare, but they never could
be of any real use unless they submitted themseves to mili-
tary di .cipline. (Hear, hear.) But had they got 5,000
men now who had consented to do so : He thought we
should have 150,000 men Wider arms for the defenoa of the
country, but we should not rely on those who took up arms
merely as an amusement. (Hear.)
Sir J. V. SHELLEY was afraid that the observations
of the hon. and gallant gentleman might We the effect
of throwing cold water on the movement, He, however,
had not a vast respect for those high military authorities
who preferred "Brown Doge to the Minie rifle. (Laughs
ter.) He approved of the proposition of the Government
to furnish arms to 25 per cent. of the corps, for the same
quantity of arms would be sufficient to instruct, alternately,
the whole number. (Hear, bear.)
CoIoneIVININB
said he never intended to throw 'cold'
P

water on the movement, he only wished to put the subject
in its proper light.
Mr. S. HERBERT—I think the discussion whioh has
taken place has been a very useful one. There is great
diversity of opinion upon matters of detail, but at any rate
by discussion we come at last to know what it is we want.
I have been asked whether or not the Government ever con-
templated the volunteer corps becoming a permanent force.
If these corps turn out as useful as I hope and expect, they
will become part of our permanent establishment—(hear,
hear)—but when I say that I do not mean that for 20 or
even 100 volunteers a single regular soldier will be dis •
placed. (Hear, hear.) We are willing to make as perfect
a soldier as we can of every man who is willing to take our
pay and subject himself to our discipline. (Hear, hear.)
In this country, however, there is very little military spirit.
There is a martial, but very little military spirit, although
even in this house a great change has taken place since the
militia was called into existence. Formerly the army esti-
mates were discussed very coldly, almost the only speakers
being a few military officers ' • but now we see how much
the existence of the militia has spread a military feeling
and imparted military knowledge to gentlemen of influ-
ence in their respective localities. What we want now
is to get the middle classes imbued with an interest in our
means of defence, and I think the volunteer corps will be
useful in doing that. (Hear, hear.) The late Secretary
for War has doubts, on account of the state of our stores,
whether it was wise to issue rifles to these corps. If the
present state of our stores had been permanent, I should
have hesitated, but seeing there is a rapid increase every
week, and that next year our stores will be much enlarged,
I thought that instead of allowing our arms to remain use-
less it would be better to have men behind them engaged in
military exercises. (Hear.) If we had asked the volunteer
corps to arm and clothe themselves, and pay for their own
drill and musket instruction, and nothing for them in re-
turn but put them under military law, the effect would
have been discouraging in the extreme. We must have
some influence over them, and unless there is some equity
in the dealings between us, we cannot expect them to pay
due deference to the military authorities. Such, at all
events, were the reasons which induced us to offer arms, as
far as our means would permit. (Hear.) I have been asked
what we would do for them in case of war. In case of war,
of course, they would be armed ; but those who point to
the times of George 111. ought to recollect that circum-
stances are very different now from what they were then.
People talk in a very loose way about invasion, but at that
time it stared us in the face in the practical shape of a large
camp within reach of our telescopes, and we were obliged
to call out every man, and both dress and arm them.
At present my only fear is that the volunteers will be rather
too fond of uniforms; at all events, we need be under no
apprehension that in case of war they may be improperly
dressed. (Hear.) As to raising them in companies or
battalions, there is a broad distinction to be observed. In
thinly populated districts it would be impossible to raise
them in battalions, for you may depend upon it that men
engaged in the ordinary pursuits of life will not consent to
attend drill or practice at a distance from their homes.
There is a question as to whether these volunteer corps
should be formed into battalions or companies. In case of
war you must form them into battalions, and therefore it
will be a great advantage if some of them have a knowledge
of battalion drill. There will be great facilities for this inlarge
towns, where you can raise a sufficient number of compantes
to form a battalion ; and it may be accomplished in the man-
ner which Ito-day suggested to a deputation of gentlemen
who are raising several companies, and wish to have them
formed into a battalion. I explained to them the
difficulties which attended that course, but said, "If you
are going to raise eight or ten companies let the gentlemen
who have the management of them combine, let them all
have the same uniform and the same code of regulations,
and they can then at any moment be formed into a batta-
lion without the slightest difficulty or expense." (Hear.),
I have stated that the Government are very anxious to pro-
mote the formation of these corps. As auxiliaries I believe
they will be most useful. (Hear.) If ever they are made
a substitute for a regular force, I believe they will be most
mischievous. (Hear.) The gallant officer says that without
discipline a population is ureless ; but is not that a reason
for attempting to drill them while you can ? (Hear.) Every
one says that you must keep up a large store of muskets—
so many for the regular army, so many for the militia em-
bodied and disembodied, and, beyond this, 20,000 or 30,000
stand of arms for arming the population ; but, if you are
going to arm the population surely it is wise to give them
as much knowledge of the duties as you can. For all these
reasons the Government feel most grateful to the gentle-
men who have undertaken the formation of these corps.
They have done so at the sacrifice of much time and often
of lucrative employments, and I think that the country
owes them a debt of gratitude for the exertions which they
are making. (Hear, hear.) I trust that in this house
members will not press too hard upon the Government with
the different views and theories which they may entertain.
I think that we have got into a good groove, and that by
steadily pursuing it we may effect much good, especially
by the formation of volunteer artillery corps. Not only have
you now in position guns which would require 38,000 men
to work, but you have every day an augmentation of bat-
teries requiring additional men. A volunteer artillery corps
is not merely an auxiliary ; it becomes a substitute for the
Royal Artillery, which can be employed better and more
effectually elsewhere. For these reasons the Government
are anxious to give every encouragement to such forces. In
bringing forward` this motion my hon. friend has done a
public service ; but as there seems to be a great unanimity
upon this subject, I hope he will not press it to a division.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PALK replied briefly, remarking that therighthon.
gentleman opposite had not answered the question upon
which, most of all, he wished for reply, viz., the formation
of volunteer artillery corps in undefended districts. He
would not notpress the subject any further, however, bging
quite willing to leave it to the judgment of the Governrrent,
and therefore with the permission of the house, he should
withdraw his motion. '
The motion was*then withdrawn.
THE COURT OF ADMIRALTY.

Mr. HADFIELD moved for leave to bring in a bill to
enable serjeants, banisters-at-law, attorneys, and solicitors,
to practice ix the High Court of Admiralty. One member
e the Government (Mr. C. P. Villiers) he knew was in fa-
vour of such a measure, and in principle it had already been
agreed to two years ago in the Probate Act, and had been
thrice affirmed, while the hon. and learned gentleman, the
Attorney-General, approved of its general principle. The
hon. and learned gentleman stated that he did not intend to
confer compensation on the proctors in reference to the pro-
posed change.
The motion having been seconded,
Sir G. C. LEWIS (Home Secretary) said the opinions of
the hon. gentleman were no doubt well founded, and it was
a question which would be properly considered by her Ma-
jesty's Government. There was only one matter of fact in
which the hon. gentleman had, he thought, understated his
case, namely, thatwherein he suggested that rewards to the
amount of £169,000 should be given to proctors, whereas in
his opinion, it was £169,000 a-year, and with that he was
quite willing to give his assent to the introduction of the
bill. (Hear.)
Leave was given accordingly to bring in the bill.
FOREIGN ENLISTMENT ACT.
Mr. DIGBY SEYMOUR moved for leave to introduce
a bill to amend the Foreign Enlistment Act, so far as re-
lates to transports and storeships. The act was only n-
tsehnipdsedwtaos apprapdlyucttoivperialteaearsidiaffindaulittys aapnpdliican
injustice.
Sir store-
jasusatnbee
in-
opportune Sir G . C .mamVnt LEWIS
to observedalterthe tlhaawt thewhich. presenthaaw.
appealed
adtohabany
raesßpeocytaeld
by
yroecalacmh astuioanc,eadthines_A_
provisionsdstraof
tion since 1819. He therefore aid not feel justified in assent
ing to the introduction of the bill.
Mr. BOWYER believed that the proposed bill would
render the preservation of neutrality more difficult, and
would lead to serious contraventions of international law.
Mr. COLLIER would not have consented to the passing
of the act now sought to.be altered, but at the same time
argued that the present was not a fit time for altering it.
Mr.
DIGBY SEYMOUR withdrew his motion.
MEMBERS ACCEPTING OFFICE.
WRIGHTSON moved for leave to bring in a bill to
alter and amend the Act 6 Anne, 0. 7, with respect to vacat-
ing seats in Parliament on acceptance of office. The sole
object was to prevent the necessity of vacating seats on
change
SMITH said this motion was formerly negatived
ir.
A o.f oce.
wbis
awdfyi
ae(
iffprruaeaeereseesesintheconsiderable
einspff riewoentelrh:ai ecu
laancytintdammdge majority.uitntghshahtebe tlbeeipersonsac oo inconveniences
vs
iednAeirtetenotdhe presenteaoecsncaepf
rnthisepl
almew.o,mhTue
This
iti
st theybill,wa
hffee at circumstancesdoafptthef from
ot mthosemightt
h accept
t beGoffice
by e underot hvt under
which
ideeencrnhtt com-
pletelyf: hea slinyythat advocated by the nation. He should give this motion
a most decided negative.
Mr. INGHAM said there was now a balance of autho-
rity on this question, and therefore it was fair and reasonable
to bring the question before the house. He would support
the bill.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 6l
Against it
Majority against the motion —2

TURNPIKE AND BRIDGE TOLLS.
Mr. ALCOCK moved that an address be presented to
her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to
issue a Royal Commission to inquire into and report as to
the best means of abolishing the tolls on the turnpike roads
and bridges in England and Wales.
Sir. G. C. LEWIS urged the great improvement which
had of late years taken place in the management of turn-
pike trusts, and the many interests involved, as a reason for
opposing the motion.
Mr. HOPE said it was very easy to abolish tolls, but not
easy to establish a rate instead.
Mr. CRAUFURD proposed that the wording of the
Scotoh commission should be taken in place of that of the
present motion.
Mr. B, CARTER considered the present motion prema-
ture till the result of existing commissions was made known.
The motion was negatived without a division.
CHURCH RATE COMMUTATION BILL.
Mr. ALCOCK obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
voluntary commutation of church rates.
FISHERIES REGULATION.
Mr. HOP WOOD obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
more effectual preservation and increase of the breed of
salmon and fish of the salmon kind, andfor the better regu-
lating the fisheries in the rivers of England.
ARMY (HALF-PAY OFFICERS).
Colonel NORTH moved that this house will to-morrow
resolve itself into a committee to consider of a humble
address to her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to
grant the hale-pay of £4OO a-year, unattached pay,' to cer
tarn general officers who obtained promotion upon half-pay
under the provisions of the general order of the 23d day of
April, 1826, who have since become General officers, and
are now receiving only the half-pay of their regimental rank,
and to assure her Majesty that this house will make good
the same.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he could not accede to
the motion of the gallant officer, who, he thought, had
somewhat misunderstood the order to which he referred.
These officers were subject to the ordinary regulations
which existed at the period alluded to, as well as before and
since. There must Le a service of six years as a field
office', whereas some of these gentlemen had not done a
day's service since 1826, when they went on half-pay.
Moreover, there was an express stipulation with respect
to their widows, which, by the manner in which it was
expressed,
l
Ne i
mansowedcan
that
getno otherx4oo a- r, e
advantagesyeerlswes. a
retobe
expected.day,
as he said, unless he was engaged as a field officer for six

years,
general PEEL took a different view of the subject from
his right hon. friend. As to his being obliged to serve six
years as a field officer, that was not the construction he
put upon. it. On what principle, he would ask, could tho
widow of a major-general receive his pension, when he
himself did not enjoy his real pay while-he lived, in conse-
quence of the general order to which allusion had been
made ?
Colonel NORTH said he felt so strongly upon the sub-
ject that he should take the sense of the house on it.
Colonel DUNNE complained that those officers were
Induced to take a rank, which they accepted in the full

confidence that their half-pay would be continued in the
same proportion.
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the resolution
Against it 42
Majority —2o
The motion was then negatived.
Sir R. FERGUSON moved for leave to bring in a bill
to facilitate internal communication in Ireland, by means
of trararoads and tramways.
Agreed to.
CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION ACT.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved for leave w bring in a
bill to repeal so much of the Emancipation Act of 18'29 as
prohibited Roman Catholics from holding the office of Lord
Chancellor of Ireland.

Sir C. LEWIS gave his assent cordially to the motion,
and stated that he would support the second reading of the
bill.

The house having gone into committee, a resolution was
Rassed authorising the introduction of the bill, and it was
subsequently introduced.
The Trial by Juries (Scotland) Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The new bills ordered to be introduced in the course of
the evening were read a first time, and the house adjourned
at half-past twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIOA S.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.--JULY 5.
MEMBERS ACCEPTING OFFICE.

Motion made and Question put, " That leave be given to
bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Act 6 Anne, c. 7,
with respect to Vacating Seat 4 in Parliament on accept-
ance of Office."—The House divided ; Ayes 51, Noes 53.