The Sun.
London, England, 1861-02-13 00:00:00

OFFICES HELD BY MEMBERS.

Mr. WHITE did not believe that any objection existed
to the production of his return, which the hon. gentleman
moved as follows :—" Return by every member of this
house holding any civil, military, naval, diplomatic, or
other place, officers, or pension to which he has been nomi-
nated or appointedby the Crown, Government, Ministers,
or chiefs of departments ; stating the date of his nomination
or appointment and the emoluments ho receives, and
whether the same be temporary, permanent, or progressive."
Sir G. C. LEWIS said it was his duty to oppose the mo-
tion. The hon. member had not stated any ground why he
desired that the return should be made. There was this ob-
jection—that the information sought for by the hon. member
was already accessible, and that he proposed to incur unne-
cessary trouble and expense in preparing and printing it.
With regard to all civil and political offices held by mem-
bers, the salaries were voted by the house, and could be
seen by any one who would refer to the Estimates. With
respect to the military officers their ply could be easily
ascertained. He understood that their salaries stood on a
different footing from the salaries of civil servants, as in
mostcases they had been the subject of purchase. He could
not see any advantage that would arise from laying on
the table a return of the pay received by military officers in
that house. The same remark applied to naval officers, and
so with respect to diplomatic servants, their pay could be
known by reference to the finance accounts. Under
these circumstances he could not sees any advantage in hav-
ing this return presented to the house. It appeared only to
be wanted in order to save trouble to the hon. gentleman,
who, instead of referring to the different sources of infor-
mation, desired that the clerks in the public offices should
make out the return for him. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHITE said that in moving for the return he had
not thought it necessary to adduce any arguments in favour
of the motion, but he considered the reasons assigned by
the right hon. gentleman for refusing the return most un-
satisfactory. In reply to the imputation that he made the
motion in order to save himself trouble, he might observe
that his constant attendance in that house showed that he
did not grudge any amount of trouble which he thought
might be attended with advantage to his constituents.
(Hear.) The right hon. gentleman had stated that the de-
sired information could be obtained from documents already
on the table, but the same remark was applicable to almost
every return which was granted. He would not say that
the votes of members of that house were influenced by
being connected with the Government, but some people,
when once in office, seemed to evince a total oblivion of all
their former principles. With regard to military and naval
officers, the small stipends they received for their services
appeared almost like ingratitude on the part of the nation
—(hear, hear)—and, looking to the scale of personal ex-
penditure in these modern times, no man could say that the
Ministers were overpaid ; but there were cases of men in
the civil service who received pay and did little or no work
for it, and it would be satisfactory to the country to obtain
a return as regards those men.
Lord R. CECIL said that if the house divided on the
motion he should vote with the right hon. gentleman the
Home Secretary. Still he hardly thought it prudent for
the Government to refuse this return. A short time ago
the hon. member for Birmingham accused all on that (the
Opposition) side of the house of receiving more from the
taxes than they paid. The. charge was ridiculous, but
nevertheless it was believed by some of the simple ad-
mirers before whom the honourable member spoke,
and therefore it was desirable that every opportunity should
be afforded for the public mind to be rendered clear on this
point. (Hear, hear.) If the return were granted, it would
be seen that, besides officers in the army and navy, and
persons holding Tpolitical offices—all of whom the hon.
gentleman admitted to be underpaid—there was scarcely any
member in that house receiving anything from the public.
Mr. HADFIELD thought that the noble lord had stated
enough to induce the house to order the return, and in
case of a division he should take a different course from
that which the noble lord announced it to be his intention
to pursue, and should support the motion.

Mr. BASS teu3ted the noble lord would not discredit his
admirable speech by giving a negative to the motion.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CONINGHAM said that the hon. member for Bir-
mingham, in alluding to the receipt of public money by cer-
tain persons, referred not to members of that house alone,
but to their friends, relations, and followers ; and the in-
tense violence of the contests for the possession of the
Ministerial benches arose from the knowledge that they
were contentions for the division, not only of political
power, but of the enormous patronage at the disposal of the
occupants of the Treasury benches. Seeing 'how the pre-
sent Government was constituted, he was not surprised at
the determined resistance offered to the production of this
return, for the Treasury benches' were wholly occupied by
the most exclusive clique that ever ruled the destinies of
this country. Ho was surprised that the Home Secretary
should refuse a plain statement of facts, from which the
country:might learn how the taxes, raised from the hard-
working classes, were divided among the possemrs of
Places and their followers. Both sides of the house resisted
any attempt to reform the institutions of the country, be-
cause it was felt that as soon as the franchise should be
largely extended an end would be put to abuses and to the
wasteful manner in which the people's money was squan-
dered.

The house then divided—
For the motion
Against it
Majority -59
The motion was therefore lost.
UNIVERSITY ELECTIONS.

Mr. DODSON, in moving for leave to bring in a bill to
provide that votes at elections for the Universities might be
recorded by mous of yotilag papers, oftid it wottisi embody