The Sun.
London, England, 1859-03-08 00:00:00

posal to admit the natives of India to a participation in the
Government, and, with him, in order to keep down expen-
diture,_recommeAded the reduction of the salaries of
civilians.

Mr. EWART differed from Mr. Bright in respect to the
financial prospects of India; he expected from the improve-
ment of the means of intercommunication a great devehp-
mant of the resources of that country.
Mr. WILSON had not only no apprehensions as to the
financial prospects of India, but he had the greatest her, of
them. Almost every increase of the Indian debt had arisen
from wars, and-from expenditure upon public works which
would be reproductive. If the increased interest upon the
Indian debt were.taken at £2,000,000, and the expenditure
upon public works at £1,000,000, and there should be a de-
ficiency of X 3,000,000, he should not despair of seeing in the
next three or four years such an increase of the revenue
from existing sources as would enable the Government
of India to bear this charge. He disputed some of the
conclusions of Mr. Bright regarding the land revenue
of India : he condemned the policy of alienatirig in
perpetuity waste or jungle lands, as repeating the error
committed by Lord Cornwallis in his permanent settlement ;
and he justified the views of the late and former Govern-
ments in relation to railways in India and to certain branches
of the Indian revenue. He did not anticipate a falling off
in the revenue derived from either salt or opium. He dis-
approved an Imperial guarantee of an Indian loan ; he be-
lieved that the future rule of England over India was more
secure than ever, and did not fear for the resources of the
latter country.

Lord STANLEY—One, and not the least, diffienity ex-
perienced in addressing the house after a Lecussion such as
has now taken place is that the debate has ranged over such
a variety of topics that it is next to impossible to enter with
any practical advantage into the majority of the subjects
that have been discussed. Many suggestions have been
thrown 'out for the better government of India—some of
them of much value—which will receive, as they deserve
consideration. One hon. gentleman has told us that among
the principal requirements of Indian administration was the
admission of a certain number of' natives into the Legisla-
tire Council of India. I quite agree that it is very impor-
tant to obtain as far as possible a genuine expression of
native opinion upon matters which are discussed in India;
but the objection to the plan of proceeding suggested is this
—that you cannot find any one, two, or three natives who
could be said in anysenseto represent the native population
as a whole. (Hear.) So again, the question of judicial
reform has been mooted. That is a question of the deepest
interest and the greatest importance. It is one that must
and does call for immediate and careful consideration ; and
I shall only repeat to-night, what I said on a former occa-
sion, that I am quite satisfied—the Government here is
quite satisfied—that any partial, fragmentary, and incom•
plete mode of dealing with this subject would introduce
greater complication than it would remove, and that when
the queition comes to be dealt with it must be in a compre-
hensive manner. (Hear, hear.) As to the subject of Enam
at Madras, I may remind the house that this question will
be reported upon by the new Governor of Madras, and that
pending the receipt of his opinion no definite stcp that can
commit the Government will be taken. Now, the hon.
gentleman opposite, with much of whose speech I agree,
said it was a fatal error to sell uncultivated lands in India
to private persons; that you would be merely making a
present to them of that which was the propertyof tho State,
and that a 30 years' lease was sufficient for all practical
purpose's. I apprehend that that is not found practically to
be the case ; becaaise both in India and the colonies the ono
point on which all those agree who apply for lands of this
description is that they desire to have them in perpetuity,
to pay a sum down and have done with the matter, and
then to hold them as lands are held in England. But when
I am told that a3O years' lease, or a lease fer a term of
years at a fixed rent, subject to be raised at the end of the
term, is sufficient for all practical purposes, I answer, there
is no analogy between the case put and that of a tennnt
who holds lands in this country. With regard to the debt
of India, I have to say, in reply to the hon. member for
Birmingham, that I never thought of making light of the
Indian debt by comparing it with that of England. I never
made light of the injury which is inflicted on India by the
burden of that debt. I admit that it is a great drawback
and a great inconvenience; but my argument was and is
this—that as England has enjoyed an immense amount of
material prosperity even under en enormous pressure of
debt, there is no reason why India should not be equally
prosperous under a similar state of things. But the hon.
member for Birining•ham answered his own argument when
he admitted that he saw no limit to the development of the
future resources of India. That is what I fully believe,
and believing that the trade of India will increase to an in-
credible extent, I contend, and that is all I have contended,
that the amount of this permanent burden, even taking it
at £90,000,000—looking at what the resources of the coun-
try will be when properly and fully developed—will not be
greater than those resources will bear. (Hear.) Frequent
remarks have been made on the deficit in the Indian re-
venue. It is said there 'has been a continual deficit, and
that the debt has constantly increased. It is true the debt
has constantly increased, but I have not heard any contra-
diction of tha statement I made oa• a former occasion—
namely, that although there has been a considerable in-
crease to tile debt absolutely, yet previous to the mutiny
there had been no increase in the amount of the debt rela-
tively, to the amount of the revenue on which it was charged
since the beginning of the century. A question largely
touched on to-night, and on a former occasion, is that of
the salaries of the civil service. I have stated, and I state
again, that I do not mean to pledge myself that those sala-
ries are incapable of considerable reduction. but this I will
assert that the whole amount of retrenchment which it
would be possible at any future time to make in that •
branch of the public expenditure is absolutely insignifi-
cant when compared with the outlay which takes place
in the military department. (Hear, hear.) It is to that
enormous excess of military expenditure that the present
finoncial embarrassments are owing. 'With respect to the
civil service, a comparison had been made between the civil
services of Ceylon and Madras. I remember seeing that
comparison drawn up in considerable detail in a journal not
long ago. It is quite true that in point of climate there is not
much difference between the two places, but it is fair to re-
member that the whole administration of Madras is on a
scale incalculably larger than that of Ceylon. Again, we
are told that the clerical and military services do not receive
the same enormous rate of pay as the civil service. As re-
gards the clerical service, that was rather an unfortunate
assertion, because it Si) happens that the salaries paid to
chaplains in India do very greatly exceed the rate of salary
given for corresponding duty at home. It is reckoned that,
taking the whole of the ecclesiastical appointments in this
country, the overage income of each clergyman would not
amount to £3OO a-year ; while, in the Indian service the
chaplains are paid £6OO a-year, with a prospect of rising to
£9OO a-year. Then again, with regard to the military pay
and allowances, it is impossible to forget that they are much
higher in India than in any other part of the globe.
(Hear, hear.) I stated t*.se other night the case of those
employed on railways, and the high rate of salary paid to
them as a proof that the Gove.-nment did not stand alone
in finding it necessary to give a high rate of remuneration
for services in India. We are told to-night that it is the
anti:mitt -which the Government pays that fixes the rate of
remuneration ; but I doubt whether that can be niade out
to be the case. When the option is offered to a railway
engineer to servo on a lino in India or to be employed in
England, he does not consider what is paid to civil or
military- servants in India, but he considers whether it
would answer his purpose to submit to the various
inconveniences of a protracted residence abroad, and
whether increased pay would compensate him for other
disadvantages. I have fully admitted that in fixing future
salaries; it should be borne in mind that the inconvenience
attendant on a residence in India resulting from distance is
an inconvenience that every hour is tending to diminish—
(hear, .hear)—but that inconvenience which arises from
climate 'is not so imaginary as some hon. gentlemen are,
inclined to suppose,. because it is well known that invalids
are sent to England, or if not to England, they are sent to
the hills+, With regard to the salaries of the civil service,
I have a' report drawn up and printed in India, occupyirg
five considerable folio volumes. (Hear, and a laugh.) I
do not pretend to have mastered its contents, but the general
result is that all increase rather than a diminution of the
total expense is,recommended. It is fair, however, to ex-
plain that that increase is produced by the recommendation
that an increased amount of European labour and superin-
tendence should be had recourse to. There are some pro-
posals-4yr reductions in existing offices and also for the
creation..of new departments or the extension of existing
departments. It may be possible to separate one from the
other; and to adopt, I hope, some of the proposals for re-
duction without adopting those for increased expenditure
in other respects, (Hear, hear.) The Government will
be ready to take this subject into consideration, but I must
repeat that if the total amount of retrenchment were larger
than I believe it will be, still a very small saving would be
available for existing purposes, because you cannot cut down
the salaries of the present possessors of office. Therefore it
would be only misleading the house if we were to hold out
the. prospect of a considerable reduction in this matter.
It is 'to the reduction of the military expenditure almost
exelusivelythat we inustlook—(hear, hear)—and I agree that
when India is restored to its normal state, there will no
longer be any need for so large a native army as 111,
hitherto been maintained. (Hear, hear.) The house 1%111
have an opportunity very shortly of seeing a good deal )i.f
evidence taken on this subject here and in India, linlitthuenrte!
the report of the urn-mission. to inquire respectin,
organisation of the Indian army, and the evidence taken
by that,commission were received it would be desirable to
t
avoid any discussion on this subject. With rep
Imperial guarantee, I have been told thata theactsncto the
of last
year makes no difference in that respect, ad tin thetha Indian
a_ estate-
meat- I fully concur. I fully allow t
creditor has no claim whatever except on the Indian re-
venue—(hear, hear)—nor have I ever held language to a
diffdrent effect. What I have stated, and whet Ido not
hesitate to state again, is, shat the Indian creditors have
the first charge on.the Indian revenue. If that revenue,
after paying the interest of the. delb.t,,awd folutinmdianiso,
to suffice for carrying on the en
tration; then the question wouldt arisein as to mi 'wliU•would
responsible. (Hear, hear.). lis that way way that the
question of responsibility will turn up. With respect to
the proposal of the hon. member opposite (Mr. Wilson), I
was not aware thatthere was any difference between the
act of last year and the present bill. The omission of the
word only " is,- I apprehend, not material, but I have no
objection to its insertion. :We have been told that the
change made in the government of India is one of form,
and has -producedno practical result to the country. I ven-
ture to doubt whether that is a correct statement. It is
quite true that before the change there was an Indian
Minister responsible to Parliament for the conduct of Indian
affairs, but the first and most practical difference which I
will venture to say' the measure of last year has made is
this, that two departments, formerly in perpetual conflict, are
now working in harmony. There has been some, not very
considerable, saving of expense, and in the transaction of
business at home there has been experienced a very consi-
derable saving of time. In India it is considered that that
delay in forwarding answers to questions sent home, which
was so much complained of before, is very materially
diminished since the Act of last year; and when it is as-
serted that no alteration has been macle, and float every-
thing remains as it was, it will be worth while to recollect
that different parties, from precisely opposite motives, hold
the same language. Those who had maintained that no
improvement in the government of India was required are
naturally unwilling to admit that a great improvement has
taken place ; and those who believed that much more ex-
tensive reforms were needed, likewise hold the same lazy
guage, and deny.that anything has been effected wort
mentioning. As to the influence which the change Ireful!!
have on the government of India, I apprehend thatviilly
is
quite possible that expectations may have been
that point which it was impossible to satisfy. nP.orrainctica
the government in India is carried on as it was before.
de-
structions are sent from home, but a large amont of
cretion is necessarily vested in those who ad.minis,te.r the
d4e_retion inch is
affairs of that country on . the spot—a