The Sun.
London, England, 1861-06-14 00:00:00

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.

The report on this bill was brought up, and after some
conversation between the Lord Chancellor, Lord Overstone,
and Lord Brougham, in reference to the relative duties of
the official and trade assignees, the bill was ordered to be
reprinted.
WILLS AND PERSONALTY OF BRITISH
SUBJECTS ABROAD BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
IRISH CONVICT SYSTEM.

In reply to the Earl of DONOUGHMORE,
The Duke of NEWCASTLE explained that, according
to the rules of the Irish convict system, a convict trans-
ported for life was, after ten years of his conviction, libe-
rated on a ticket-of-Leave, unless he had, during his deten-
tion, been guilty of any bad conduct. The rules might
require revision, but what he had stated accounted for the
liberation of Gardener, who had certainly been removed
at the instance of Government from Brokestown, and was
now in Manchester under the surveillance of the police.
THE CUNARD CONTRACT.
On the motion of the Marquis of NORMANBY, a re-
turn was ordered of the number of times the Cunard
steamers failed to perform their contract, the amount of fines
incurred, and the amount of them levied.
Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—YESTERDAY.
EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.
On the motion for going into committee on this bill,
various exceptions were taken to its provisions by Mr.
HADFIELD and Sir H. WILLOUGHBY.
Sir C. WOOD said that he concurred with the last
speaker, but the course he pursued was unavoidable.
He quoted some of the statements of Mr. Laing in his
financial statement to show that he (Sir C. Wood) bad not
drawn too flattering an account of the financial position of
India. He placed greater reliance on this statement,
which had been endorsed by all the members of the India
Council, than the report on which hon. members relied for
information.

The house then went into committee, Mr. MASSEY in
the chair, when the several clauses having passed through,
the house resumed.

EAST INDIA COUNCIL BILL.

On the question being put, that this bill be read a second
time,

Mr. VANSITTART said the bill was a very important
one, and it appeared to him that the object of the bill was
to multiply the councils, which were already too many. He
would not, however, enter into details on that occasion, as
he hoped to have an opportunity later in the evening of
again addressing the house on the Civil Service Bill. He
did not quite understand the nature of these councils, but
he thought them open to a variety of objections. He thought
that the bill had baen hastily and crudely prepared, and he
regretted that the right hon. baronet should have allowed
three-fourths of the session to pass away before he intro-
duced measures of such importance. They ought not now
to be hurried on with such breathless haste ; and, looking
at the amount of business which had yet to be gone through
during the remaining six weeks of the session—the distri-
bution of seats, the highways, the Galway contract, the
artistic copyrights, the county surveyors, and last, though
not least, the committee of supply as yet almost untouched
—he thought that it would have been more prudent for the
right hon. gentleman to have postponed those bills till next
session, and if any motion were made to that effect, he
would gladly second it.

Mr. W. E. FORSTER said he should like to know
whether the proceedings in council in Calcutta would be
public or otherwise. At present that council was a little
Parliament, regulated by the Governor-General, and its
proceedings were conducted much the same as the process
in that house. Under section 19 of this bill the power to
make regulations for there councils was continued to the
Governor-General, and he should like to know what kind
of regulations would be made. Some persons disapproved
of the manner in which those councils had hitherto been
conducted, and he wished to know whether the proceed-
ings were to be secret or public, and if public, whether the
publication would be made daily. (Hear.) In the despatch
of Lord Canning of Jan. 15, he alluded to the disadvantages
of the mode of publicity hitherto adopted, and recommended
that the proceedings in the Legislative Councils of the north-
western provinces and the Punjaub should be conducted, not
in the form of a Parliamentary debate, but as proceedings in
a commission, and that the proceedings should be published
under the direction of the Government. But his lordship
did not say whether they should be published daily or other-
wise. This was not a question of mere detail, but a great
question of principle as to whether the legislative action of
these councils should or should not be carried on under the
influence of public opinion. It was said that the Govern-
ment of India was a despotism, and must be so. No doubt
this was the case ; but it should be an enlightened despotism.
He was delighted therefore to find that European residents,
and to some extent natives, were to be admitted to these
councils ; but unless their proceedings were reported daily
public opinion could not react upon them. As an illustration
of the advantages arising from the immediate publication of
the debates in these councils he referred to the case of Mr.
Wilson's Income Tax Bill, which was felt as a great hard-
ship by the mercantile community—who were required to
estimate their business for three years—owing to the great
fluctuation of Indian business. Their case was considered a
hard one ; but when Mr. Wilson was able to express the
necessity of the measure, and the equality of its incidence,
it was received with satisfaction by the residents through-
out India. The tobacco tax proposed by Mr. Wilson was
another illustration of the advantage of publicity, as it
enabled him to discover that it pressed far more harshly
upon the natives than he had thought it would, and
this induced him to drop it ; whereas but for publicity
it might have come into operation, and Mr. Wilson
would only have discovered how obnoxious it was when he
witnessed the passive resistance of the natives. Subject
to the general supervision of .the Governor• General, the
governors of provinces were to make regulations for their
provincial councils, and Lord Canning had said they would
be conducted as at present. Now, if they gave these local
councils the advantage of publicity, and thus secured the
assistance of public opinion in support of them, and still left
the supreme council at Calcutta secret, they would not find
such a machinery work at all, (Hear.) He was sorry to find
that these local councils were to be debarred from dealing
with the land tax. (Sir C. Wood said that was a misprint.)
This tax prevented the growth of cotton, although our
manufacturers were now looking earnestly to India for that
article.

Mr. LAYP...RD thought they ought not to be asked to
discuss three measures of such importance in the course of
a single evening. These bills would affect our rule in India
to an extent which few imagined. He did not rise for the
purpose of opposing these bills. He admitted that the Go-
vernment had shown a strong desire to deal with the ques-
tion in a large and liberal spirit, and had made great con-
cessions, if he might so call them, at any rate great changes,
which deserved and would command the approbation of
those who took an interest in Indian questions. This bill
would improve the state of things in India, and make the
system of government by council far more effective, and
would give an opening for the employment of the natives
which he had long wished to see. No doubt the legislative
council established some
or
e failure.y:ars ago was a total failure. It
was not a consultative,
eurepresentative, or a legislative
council. The Governor.ci ai
did not. It was receivedtherefore their advice but
was not bound to act upon it
and
not a consultative council. Certainl not a represen-
tative council, for it did not reprjenittWasY
independent
firithb°eeeadty
mbuastsaesfeowf
officials in India ; it did not represent than
oesftaabglirsiliculedtarine. India The for the
was
soeseens ofi
the population, the natives of India, 0:
members were commercedefi-
Englishmen
o r
cient in their knowledge of the country,
the case of Madras, the representative of which did nota
represent his province on the subject of the income tax, for
if ho had and had properly placed them before the council
Sir C. Trevelyan would not have taken the steps he did to
give them publicity. He thought that such councils as
these in the Presidencies, and subsequently in the north-
west provinces and the Punjaub would be attended with a
good effect, as these councils would be enabled to deal satis-
factorily with local matters with which they were familiar.
But the Bengal civil servant might know well the local cus-
toms and yet be entirely ignorant of the laws of Madras, or of
any other province; and what was suitable for Bengal,
might he entirely unsuitable for other parts of India. Every-
body now admitted that the income tax worked ill, and
would have to be repealed. The bill now before the house
was a good one, for it gave to the north-west provinces and
Punjaub an interest in self-government, and enabled them
to legislate for themselves. This institution of legislative
councils was a step of great importance towards the ulti-
mate division of that country into distinct Govemments,for
which the time was not yet perhaps fully come. These
councils, moraover, would release the Governor-General
from many of those arduous duties with which he was at
present overburdened. At present the business of the Go-
vernor-General was enormous, almost every detail came
before him, and this led to Lord Canning being described
as dilatory. By this bill he would be relieved
from details,
and have only to deal with great questions. As regarded
the admission of natives the bill did not go far enough—
(hear, hear)—and in committee he should move as an
t amendment, 66 That of the additional members of council,

both in Calcutta and in the Presidencies, one-half of the '
official members shall consists of natives ;" and he should
take the sense of the house on the subject. At present
it was optional. He thought it was of the utmost im-
portance that natives should be admitted members of these
councils,in fair proportions. It was said that the natives
would not speak in these councils, but the present gene-
ration could speak a little, and the next generation would
speak as long and as well as they did. There was a
growing desire in this country to treat India
as if it were a colony, forgetting that there was a very great
distinction between a dependency and a colony. It was im-
possible to be that, because a colony was in every respect a
new country, while India was not only densely populated,
but there was not an inch of land in the country that did
not belong to somebody. The hon. member for Manchester
said the natives were idle and lazy, but nothing could be
further from the fact. He had never seen more beautiful
cultivation in his life than when he travelled there, and as
to the native troops, none in the world were capable of en-
during more privations ; and it was well known that, dur-
ing the mutiny, they marched, in many instances, 40 miles
a day. It was not idleness, but the simple question that
that they did not get a fair return for their labour. The
planters of indigo wished to make it appear that the ryots
would net cultivate it, but it was not so ; their objection
was, that in many cases they were losers by the prices they
received. He complained that the natives were not men-
tioned at all in the bill before the house, whereas if they
wished to govern India as it ought to be governed they
must allow them a fair share in the administration of their
own affairs. With regard to the publicity of the proceed-
ings of the Legislative Council, he trusted it would take
place at all events to a limited extent; but he agreed with
the Governor-General that great care should be taken in
doing so, lest the people should be deceived by misrepresen-
tations. A mere misunderstanding led to that dreadful
mutiny in which so many lives were lost. It was said by
the Governor- General, and he agreed with him, that those
reports should be made by authorised persons, and after-
wards revised, and if nobody could be found out there to do
so, the Government at home ought to provide for it. He
also thought the council should be at liberty to take a part
in discussing the revenue of the country and the means by
which it was procured, because it formed a very important
part of their functions. He believed, however, that on the
whole, with a few alterations, such as he had suggested,
the bill might be made very useful, especially if one half of
the council was composed of natives.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE regretted that these important
bills were not introduced at an earlier period of the session,
and not at a time when so much pressing business was be-
fore the house. He did not believe with the hon. member
for Manchester, that the effect of their legislation would be
to have separate Governments for the different provinces of
India, nor did he wish it, because the authority of a central
united executive was the best system that could be adopted.
The introduction of non-officials intolithe council was also a
great improvement ; but if they admitted them they must,
in common justice, admit also a proportion of the natives.
Those connected with the Government ought, no doubt, to
have a preponderating influence, but the natives ought to
have a fair ahare in the administration of their own affairs.
Those provinces had just got out of a most tremendous re-
bellion, but he hoped a series of good measures for their
future government would have the effect in future of pre-
venting such disasters.
Col. SYKES bore testimony to the inUligence of the
natives of India. He had seen lately that they assembled
in public meetings without the presence of a single Euro-
pean, and at Bombay speeches were made to express their
gratitude to the late Lord Elphinstone, characterised by
an eloquence that could not be surpassed. He believed
their knowledge of the country and people would enable
them to confer great benefit on the administration of Go-
vernment, if they were permitted to become members of the
Council. In this bill before the house he regretted to say
they were not even alluded to; and if the hon. member for
Southwark had not given notice that he would in committee
propose that admission, he (Col. Sykes) would most cer•
tainly have done so. He thought the power given to the
Governor-General and governors of provinces over councils,
in making rules and regulations, would have the effect of
making them mere tools, the more especially as they were
not empowered to bring forward any measure affecting the
revenue without the consent of the Executive. On the
whole, however, he believed the bill would be productive of
great benefit, and he should give it his support.
Mr. BUXTON concurred with the hon. member for
Southwark as to the immense advantage the publicity of the
proceedings of the Council would confer on the country.
Experience must have shown the great value of having the
mind of the people brought to bear on measures which so
vitally affected their own interests. It was complained that
no member of these councils could bring in any question in
the shape of a charge on the public revenue without the
sanction of the Governor-General and the Executive; but
that was not at all an unreasonable proposition, for no hon.
member could so in that house. He congratulated his right ,
hon. friend on the success of the measures he brought for-
ward, and agreed with the hon. and learned gentleman who
preceded him, that the natives ought to have some share in
the Government of their country. It was impossible to avoid
seeing the great intelligence springing up amongst them,
L and he believed they would in future avoid such calamities
as had lately happened in India by adopting such a policy,
and associating them with ourselves in the management of
• their own affairs.

Mr. KINNAIRD expressed his opinion that time should
be allowed for the deliberate discussion in committee of
all the details of the measure, which had been very incon-
veniently introduced at the busiest part of the session, As
regarded the limitation of the period during which a seat at
the council was to be held, he thought that was a matter
open to grave doubt. The placing of natives on the council
had his warmest sympathy, and the right hon. gentleman
was entitled to the best thanks of the country for his bill.
Mr. AYRTON said that the bill reminded him of an
elaborate machine containing so many levers that when its
maker proceeded to set it in motion he found it impossible
in consequence of the amount of friction involved in the
attempt. He believed it to be impossible to govern India
by Englishmen and those who had been designated natives.
It would have been far better if the right hon. gentleman's
council in London, composed of 15 men of the greatest ex-
perience in Indian affairs and legislation, should be charged
with, or that the Governor-General should have a direct
veto on, any proposed legislation. Either of these courses
would have freed them from the complications in which this
bill was likely to involve them, together with the universal
distrust and hatred of a single Government. Why should
we be constantly teaching the Indian people that their
country was to be a great country, and yet make them fa-
miliar with the idea that 40,000 men governed a population
of 200,000,000 ? By separating the Government as much
as possible into portions they would avoid all those dangers
and acquire many important advantages, whereas if they
did not regard that great principle of policy he much feared
that before long cousequences would ensue which that house
would deeply regret to see. He merely made those re-
marks, leaving it to the right hon. gentleman to take ad-
vantage of them if he thought proper ; but, at any rate, he
implored him to make his bill more conformable to Asiatic
ideas, and above all not to deal with details by the Imperial
Parliament.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE hoped the house would not
accept the statements of the hon. member as the opinion
of those who had most maturely considered the subject.
He certainly objected to having no less than four impor-
tant Indian bills brought before them on one evening, each
of which would have deserved an evening to itself. He ob-
jected to the procedure all the more because they had not
before them the opinion of the Indian Council. The inevi-
table effect of the establishment of these debating societies
in connexion with a despotic Government would be to cause
a great increase of the cost of governing India. If the Go-
vernment, instead of bringing in these four bills this year,
had brought in some well-devised scheme of finance by
which the army and navy of India, and the general admi-
nistration, would have been placed on a better footing, they
would have more effectually promoted their ostensible ob-
ject.

Mr. H. D. SEYMOUR totally dissented from the -view
of the hon. baronet opposite. He believed that it was im-
possible for the Government to equalise revenue and expen-
diture, however, much they might desire that, until the
general government of India had been fundamentally im-
proved. The means for that purpose provided by the bills
of the Government appeared to him to be well calculated
for that object, and a good sound financial system must in
the end result from it.

Sir C. WOOD said he had explained so fully the nature
of the bill, and the principles on which it was based when
he moved for leave to introduce it, that it was not neces-
sary for him again to trouble the house at any length. It
was the less so from the nature of the speeches which has
been delivered by hon. members that night, and to which
views in
expressed India.
ei H
upon the whole he had listened with great gratification.
Howas pleased to find such general approval of the princi-
plesthe
views
objects of the measure, which in fact carried out
s impressed upon Lord Canning by long experi-
ence
teheererbtyaitnhlys
hcosunl.dmnemotbecronfcourrniaia
in the
nor the hon. member for the Tower Hamlets. The great
object of the Government was to associate the natives
with us in the future
administration of India. Nor did
tho bills before the house
make any distinction between
o
one subject of her Majesty Tarbaeanother,
religion.Of course
whatever
might be their race, language,
those who were employed would be
an
capacity and attainments ; but there would baccording to their
dis-
tinctions of inferiority and superiority Createed between the
no legal
different subjects of her Majesty by act of Parliament. To
associate the natives with us in the government of India
frankly and fairly-, was the spirit which ran through the
whole of the bills he had laid on the table. The desire of the
Government was to act in the fullest manner on the pro-
clamation which her Majesty issued on assuming the direct
government of India, and he felt gratified by the general
approval which had been extended to this bill. (Hear.)
The bill was then read a second time.
EAST INDIA (HIGH COURTS OF JUDICATURE)

BILL.
Sir C. WOOD moved that this bill be read a second
time.
Mr. HADFIELD said there was a great want of Barris■
ters and legally educated persons in India conversant with
the laws and languages of India, as well as with the law of
r this country. He thought that as it was proposed to amal.