The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-20 00:00:00

MAYNOOTH.

Mr. SPOONER rose, amidst some derisive cheers, to
move, " That this house do resolve itself into a commit-
tee for the purpose of considering the acts for the en-
dowment of the College of Maynooth, with a view to
the withrawal of any endowment out of the Consoli-
dated Fund, due regard being had to vested rights or
interests." The hon. gentleman said that nothing but
an imperative sense of duty would have induced him to
bring forward this subject again ; but he held it to be
the duty of every Protestant, and of every one who
had taken the oath of allegiance to his Sovereign,
to discountenance the payment of public money
to Maynooth. He could assure the house that
he had no personal end to serve in the matter.
He had no ambitioas views—he had no animosities
against Roman Catholics. On the contrary, he had many
valued friends belonging to that persuasion, and he be-
lieved them to be honourable, upright, and conscientious
men. It was therefore on none but public grounds that
he brought forward the motion, to which he hoped the
house would agree. Indeed it would not be very conso-
nant with courtesy, or even with Parliamentary practice,
&ter a bill had been ir mght in and virtually read a se-
cond time foie session to attempt to prevent its re-intro-
duction. No doubt the tactics of last session would
again be resorted to to prevent the house from coming
to a fair decision. He had even been told by those wi son
he respected that his motion had become an absolute
nuisance. (Hear and laughter.) If so, who created the
nuisance ? Those who uphold the grant. Remembering
Coat he had been deserted on the former occasion by his
old leaders, he was led again to apprehend a factious op-
position. He would state one great reason f.,r opposing
the Maynooth grant. He objected, on the part of Pro•
testants, to pay for the support of a religion to which
they did not belong, and whose tenets they did not be-
lieve, but held them to be contrary to the word of God,
and a national sin, which, if not removed, would, sooner
or later, bring down the judgments of God on this coun-
try. (A. laugh) Hon, members might laugh, but he would
not be deterred by ridicule from discharging a duty which
ho owed to his God and his Church. Besides, this grant
was contrary to our Protestant constitution. The Sove-
reign had taken an oath to do nothing to injure the Pro-
testant Church. (No, no.) He had not a copy of the
coronation oath, but he would not be stopped by a mere
unsupported negative.' What were the creede, art'cles,
and doctrines of the Protestant Church which the Sove-
reign had sworn to maintain I One article was that the
doctrines of the Romish Church were blasphemous, and
contrary to Scripture. (A. laugh). The Sovereign had
sworn this ; and yet they asked her to support a grant
in aid of a college where those blasphemous doctrines
were taught. What was the present state of that college ?
Most hon. members had read the report of the commis-
sioners, which was as contrary to the evidence as any-
thing could possibly be. (No, no.) He would be glad
to refer that question to any jury of 12 sensible men.
The commissioners had first of all examined those gentle-
men who were interested in the support of the college ;
but even their evidence disclosed the fact of the secular
working of the institution. With regard to loyalty, they
avowed that their church had the first and paramount
claim on their devotion. On the other side, persons
were examined who bad seen the evils of the college,
and they denied all that had been stated by its suppor-
ters. One gentleman admitted that he had been taught
such principles there that he was actually a rebel when
he left it. (Oh, oh.) The testimony so given must con-
vince every one that the commissioners had come to a
wrung conclusion. Their chairman, Lord Harrowby,
a most honourable man in every relation of life, had riot
been able to compete with the Jesuits. He (Mr.
Spooner) had told that noble lord so to his face. The
committee of 1827 had acted in a very different manner ;
they had sifted the evidence, and conducted their exa-
minations in a far superior manner to the commission.
ers ; but the numbers being pretty equally balanced
they had made no report. What had been the progress
'of this college ? In the first instance, permission was
given to certain individuals to found an educational in-
stitution, it being believed that priests would be better
educated at home than abroad. Then they came to the
Government for money, still in the character of suppli-
ants. Every concession created a fresh demand ; and now
they came not as suppliants, but as parties claiming a
right. (Cheers and counter cheers.) It was for the house
to teach them that they had no such right. Some
feeble-minded friends of his—(a laugh) —told him
that if he me Idled with Maynooth he would destroy the
Protestant Establishment. There was no analogy what-
ever between the two cases ; and he knew that the noble
lord at the head of the Government was of that opinion.
He was convinced that so long as he was Prime Minis-
ter he would not allow a single sixpence of the revenues
of the Protestant Church to be touched. But it was
said that the Church property in reality belonged to
Roman C i.th.l:cs. This he denied. There was a church
in Ireland endowed long before Popery was heard of.
Afterwards the Church was purified, and it retained its
property. No man who had read history could doubt that
the title of the Irish Church to its property was as good
as any title that existed. It was said that property had
been bequeathed to the Church by Romanists ; but he
denied that this affected the title to the Church property.
How many noblemen and others in this country held
property by the same title as that of the Church to its
property ? This being so, there was no fear of a sp ilia-
tion of Church property. Another important point was
the great change now going on at Maynooth— the
struggle between Catholic and ultramontane principles.
(Hear, hear.) The college had been established pur-
posely to keep out ultramontane principles, and to pre-
vent priests from imbibing the contagion of the cont.-
nent. Since that time the trustees had been changed ;
the recent act constituted theinvisitors,and all the power
they had was to walk over the college once a year. It was
impossible for the commissioners to deny that certain books
were used in the college,butit was said they were not read
or enforced. Amongst those authors was Bailey, whose
works were as full of nitramontanism as possible. This
book had been approved and sanctioned by Pius IX. as
proper for the instruction of youth. One of its dogmas
was that the Pope had power to make laws for the whole
Catholic world, as the successor of the divine Peter, the
chief of the apostles, and the head of the whole Church.
This did not refer to spiritual Goverment merely ; there
was no such word. The expression treed was simply "go-
verning." This principle was extending, and would pro-
duce serious results if its operation were not checked. In
the same work it was laid down that human laws wero
not to be obeyed if opposed to the laws of God and the
Church. Such was the book from which morality was
taught to the pupils at Mayntoth. Was the house pre-
pared to re soguise such a principle, and to coo priests

educated in that belief ? It was laid down that the Pope
was not to be considered a foreign prince, and that Rome
was the centre of Christianity. It might be right for the
Pope to propagate such a doctrine, but why should Pro-
testants be asked to support it, and to teach priests that I
they were not to obey human laws when contrary to the
interest of the Church ? Scavini taught that a witness
who was sworn to tell the whole truth did not sin
against justice if he remained silent, and that if the in-
tention did not accompany the words of the oath, the
oath was not registered before God. He knew many no•
man Catholics, but he did not believe they neould obey
such doctrines. Let it be recollected that these doctrines
were taught by the priests, who inculcated them on the
ignorant people of Ireland, and that the people of Eng•
land were paying for such teaching. With regard to lies,
they were taught that ten thousand jocose lies were a
venial but did not constitute a mortal sin. He called on
the house not treat this subject in a careless manner, cr
call upon the Protestant people of this country
to be the distributors of such books and the teachers of
such blasphemous doctrines. (Oh.) Nothing but the
feeling that he would be guility of a great sin if he
neglected the opportunity to bring the question before
the house induced him to undergo the pain he felt in ad•
dressing them on such topics. He was sure the noble
lord had never read one of these books to which he re-
ferred. (Laughter.) If he could get the noble lord seri-
ously to consider the subject—(laughter)--if he could
stir up in his mind a sense of the responsibility which
devolved on him in this matter—(laughter)—he was con-
vinced, from the upright character of the noble lord, that
he would recoil from sanctioning in any way the teach-
ing of such doctrines. He begged of the noble lord not
to throw away the opportunity of making himself ac-
quainted with these books—(laughter)—because when he
became acquainted with them he would find that the
matter was too serious to be trifled with. If carried
out these doctrines would cut up their Protestant con-
stitution by the roots, withdraw the people from their
allegiance, and render the people unworthy of being be-
lieved on their oath. (No, no.) He did not think those
gentlemen who cried " No" read the books. He believed
he had himself read more of them than any man in
the house. (Ironies! cheers and laughter.) He hoped the
house would allow him to bring in the bill, and if they
did so he promised that he would give them an early op-
' portunity of discussing it. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KENDALL seconded the motion, and said that
he grounded his objection to the grant on the conduct of
Roman Catholics to Protestants. (Hear.) He held that
they were bound in self•defence not to give power to
Roman Catholics. (Hear.) He believed the Roman
Catholic body acted from conscientious motives, and with
a unity of purpose that might put Protestants to shame.
Both in Ireland and on the Continent Roman Catholics
behaved with the greatest kindness and hospitality, but
on the subject of religion they were banded together to
keep out Protestantism, and their priests oppressed it
where they had the power. When in Florence, it was
impossible to be treated with greater kindness and gene-
rosity than he bad been by the Grand Duke of Tuscany;
but that prince, who was naturally of a kind disposition,
had been obliged to follow the dictates of the clergy. It
was on these grounds that he supported the motion of
his hon. friend. He considered the present was a most
opportune time for movieg the question ; because he be-
lieved there were many persons in that house, as well as
outside of it, who were untrue to the Protestant prin-
ciples which they nominally professed ; and he was glad
that this motion had been brought forward, as it would
test these men in some way or other. He agreed with
his hon. friend that they were guilty of a national sin in
giving their support to the College of Maynooth. (Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said he was sure the house must have
witnessed with pleasure the great difference of manner
between the mover and the seconder of the motion. The
hon. gentleman who had just sat down put forward his
opinions in a firm but dispassionate manner. He wished
he could say the same of the mover. (Hear.) Notwith-
standing all the reading which that hon. gentleman put
up for, it appeared to him (Mr. Roebuck) that he read
history very curiously, in fact, by the light of his own
prejudices. (Hear, hear.) He should trace the history
of the College of Maynooth, and show that the grant
was founded on justice, on policy, and, going to the
higher principle of morality, that it was founded on that
too. When was the college founded ? It was founded
in the height of the French Revolution—not, as the hon.
member said, to keep out ultramontane doctrines, but
to keep out Gallic doctrines. (Hear.) It was to prevent
the introduction of the revolutionary doctrines of France
into Ireland that Mr. Pitt originated the College of
Maynooth. It was first established by the Protestant
Parliament. It was not endowed by a mixed Parlia-
ment, such as the present one, and here he wished to
contradict the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and who
said that this was a Protestant Parliament. The Par:
liament represented the people of the three kingdoms,
and as the opinions of the people differed so did the opi-
nions of that house. But the Irish Parliament, which
first endowed Maynooth, was an exclusively Protestant
Parliament, and returned by Protestant electors. Let
the house understand clearly why they did this. In 1795
the grant was made. At that time great terror prevailed
in this country lest the revolutionary principles of France
should be imported into Ireland by the priests, who at
that time were in the habit of receiving their education
in YEILIC. To prevent this the eellege was founded.
Then when the union took place the English Parliament
and all the great men of that day thought themselves
bound in justice to accept what had been done by the
Parliament of Ireland. They left the grant as a legacy
to us, and we were in a position to say what duties that
legacy had imposed upon us. For centuries we tried to
root out the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland ; we
passed laws that were a disgrace to civilisation ; we
tried every possible means thatcrueltyand bigotry could
induce men to take, for the purpose of rooting out Roman
Catholic doctrines. We failed ; and tbea in 1829 we
were compelled, from the fear of a civil war, to grant
emancipation. What was the justice of the claim to put
down the grant to Maynooth ? Mind, Maynooth was
created for English purposes ; was maintained by the
English Parliament on the ground of justice ; and, as it
was for the interest of England and the United Kingdom
that there should be peace and goodwill amongst its
various inhabitants, it was good policy still to maintain
it. But few years had passed awaysinee we endeavoured
to be just to Ireland, yet he could point to that country
now and contrast its condition with what it was
under the old domination of Protestantism. (Hear,
hear.) There was now a peaceable, a prosperous,
and—he was almost ashamed to use the word—a
loyal people. He said " ashamed," because it was some-
thing like a slur on the people of Ireland to vindicate
their loyalty. They had been our brothers in the battle
field ; they went shoulder to shoulder with England in
the great_fights on the continent of Europe ; they had
been to us great support in time of need; and it wa's
good policy to foster in them the game principles] and
the same feelings of kindness which they evinced towards'
us in the hour of danger. (Hear hear.) It had been
said that England's danger was Ireland's opportunity
but the people of Ireland repudiated that sentiment
whenever England wanted her. They should do every-
thing, therefore, to reciprocate that feeling towards the
people of Ireland, and not in any way do them injustice
or insult them. Ho believed the motion was irritating,
unwise, unjust, and unchristian, and he hoped they
would reject it by a strong majority. (Hear.)
Mr. BOWYER protested against theological discussions
being brought forward in the House of Commons, and said
the grant to Maynooth was but a poor compensation for the
religious foundations of which the Roman Catholics had
been deprived by the Protestants.
Mr. T. CHAMBERS said it might have been right ori-
ginally to have established Maynooth, but when those cir-
cumstances which led to its establishment had passed
away, it did not follow that the continuation of the grant
could be justified.
Mr. Sergeant O'BRIEN said the Roman Catholics cared
not for the money, but they viewed the motion as an in-
fringement on a right guaranteed to them by law, and as
an insult to their creed, owing to the reasons assigned for
bringing it forward. The success of the motion would
no doubt lead to the education of Irish priests in
foreign countries, which, though •not detrimental to the
Roman Catholic religion, night
best interests of the country. prove detrimental to the
Mr. G. MOORE said he would feel inclined to vote for
the motion, if he could separate it from the reasons ale
lodged for its introductioe, because in the abstraot be
thought one man had no rijet to be called upon to pay for
the religion of another. This reasoning, however, applied
with equal force to the Established Church of Ireland as
well as to Maynooth, and if enforced against one would
most certainly be enforced ageinst the other.
Mr. DRUMMOND said tint the question divided itself
into two distinct parts. I'rst there was the political
aspect. There was a bargaia between the English and
Irish Parliaments which could not be honestly broken. If
it were broken, the priests mist again be educated abroad ;
and for his part he could not bring himself to look upon
that result as a misfortune. In his opinion a better class
of men would come from Rome than were now educated in
Ireland. But still there would ha a breach of faith; and
the hon. member who was fond of Scripture, should re-
member the commendation of "He that sweareth to his
neighbour and disapeointeth him not, even although it be to
his own hindrance" In its theological aspects, Popery
reminded him of the story of the shield with two sides, but
he quite agreed wi,h the hon. member for Warwickshire
as to the mischief ,f the Maynooth examination. The
nobleman who was at the bead of the commission proved
himself utterly inceiable, and no sooner had he done so on
every occasion on vhich he was employed than they made
him a cabinet mini ter. (A. laugh.) It was an example of
that sort of examiration by which the right man was ob-
tained for the righ place. The hon. member said that
the doctrines of Pipery were unsafe, and he (Mr. Drum-
mond) granted thf position. He was not going to recant
anything he had Hid in former debates. He would not
let the
People of England suppose there had been the
smallest change in any of the most abominable tenets of
the Romish
and he was surprised at hon. gentle-
men talking of tie difference between ultramontane and
cis-montane doctrhes, for there never was such a thing as
a difference. It vas true that certain bishops did set up a
claim to what the3called an independent Gallican Church,
but Rome never toerated it for a single moment. A great
deal ha f been saidibout the Jesuits, but there was not a
doctrine of the Curch of Rome, and all the harm he
wished hon. gentleeen opposite was to be obliged to read
and study their owl books—for he had never met with a
Roman Catholic tswhom they had been shown who was
not horrified withthe tenets of his own church. Some-
thing had been sal about superstition, but no one who
know what was gcng
on in the world could believe that
the tendency of ten's minds was towards superstition.
The Piling that waicarrying away the church and Protes-
tantism and evermg in—
else was German neology. The
essential characterstic of the church was to be found in
this country in tho Church of Rome alone, and the oppo-
henta of that chune were denying that essential charac-
teristic, which wasthe presence of God in its priesthood
and its sacraments Ho know no recognised church but
which the Popish Church stood as a faithful witness to
God for those trulis,
and he would do anything rather
than let that chute down.
Mr. Sergeant SIIrE said the hon, gentleman who had
just sat down seldomspoke without commanding and de-
serving the attenten of the house. He had done so on
the present occasion and this was the second time in the
,
history of the wcrldwhen a prophet, undertaking to curse
the people of Goy had been obliged to bless them—
(laughter)--so obligq by inspiration—(continued laughter)
—from seine souse, or other to pronounce the most do-

cided possible judgment in their favour, and ho wished the
hon. member no greater harm than what the former pro-
phet wished for himself, that ho might die the death of
the righteous and that his last end might be like theirs.
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He did not believe that
the proposition before the house had ever been fairly or
fully met by those who were opposed to it—the proposi-
tion that it is unlawful for a Protestant legislature to con-
tinuo endowments fur the education of the Catholic priest-
hood. Now, he proposed to meet that question fairly,
and he would submit to the hon. member ( Mr. Spooner)
this counter proposition : that it is not lawful, consis-
tently with his own principles, consistently with the prin-
ciples of any member of the Established Church of Eng-
land and Ireland, consistently with the principles of any
member of any Christian established church, to withdraw
the endowment which had been granted by Parliament
to Maynooth. Those who were opposed on principle
to all endowments for religious establishments might
consistently and fairly vote for the motion ; but set-
ting aside that portion of the house, he did not see
how any other members could conscientiously vote
for the withdrawal of the endowment. It was a mat-
ter of religious obligation upon the house, as it
was upon those who granted the endowment, to main-
tain it. The principle iat Church Establishments should
exist in this country was a fundamental part of the consti-
tution. Such establishments existed in Englan 1, Scotland,
Ireland, an 1 all the dominions of the British Crown. In
some cases there might not be competent Church Esta-
blishments; bat a permanent endowment for the religious
instruction of the people existed in all parts of the British
dominions. To a certain extent the Maynooth endowment
was a Church Establishment. One portion of a Church
Establishment consisted of a provision fiir the education of
the ministers of religion. Maynooth answered that pur-
pose, by affording instruction to those who must be pastors
of the great majority of the Irish people. (Hear.) Now,
if that was a Church Establishment, it must be tried by
the test of civil utility. Did it produce that-civil utility,
which was the onlyjustification of Church Establishments ?
If it did, it ought not to be subverted until provision could
be made capable of effecting the same civil utility, or until
the laws had been for a length of time so just as to give the
Irish people the means of producing the civil utility them-
selves. Now, had just and equal laws enabled the Roman
Catholics to provide for the education of their own priest-
hood ? The very first act relating to Maynooth—that of
1795—recited, "that whereas by the laws now iu force it
is not lawful to endow any college or seminary for the edu-
cation exclusively of persons professing the Roman Catho-
lie religion, and it has now become expedient that a semi-
nary should be established for that purpose ;" and then it
provided that trustees should be empowered to receive sub-
scriptions and donations to purchase land not exceeding
1,0001. in value, and erect thereon buildings for the esta-
blishment of a college. And what has been done since
that time? The act was amended from time to time, but
in the last act (that of 1815) traces were to he found of
restrictions upon the establishment of Roman Catholic
colleges and institutions, which restrictions dii not apply
to any other subjects of the Crown. That act author .sed
the trustees to purchase land to the extent of 3,0001.
in annual value. Now, there was no other establish-
ment in the kingdom limited to that revenue. Trinity Col-
lege, Dublin, had an annual revenue from land of 40,0,0/.,
and an annual revenue, including all sources, of 76,000/.
The act of 1815 recited, " that wherever it is productive of
inconvenience and insecurity that the said trustees can
take no effectual grants of land for the purpose of the said
college, it is expedient that the trustees shall be incorpo-
rated ;" and it then went on to enact that the trustees of the
Royal College of Maynooth shall be a body politic and
corporate. It was therefore not until the year 1815 that a
single Roman Catholic instituton in Ireland obtained that
necessary facility for securing and increasing its founda-
tion and endowment—the security of a corporation. The
position of tho Irish Roman Catholics differed very much
from the position of the Church of England in that coun-
try. He would call their attention to the many institutions
which had enjoyed the benefits of incorporation; they
comprised all kinds of schools, hospitals, and infirmaries,
together with archbishops, bishops, vicars, and.curates, of
the Established Church. All these were connected withjthe
Protestant Church—the church of a very small part of the
population of Ireland, and yet this single incorporation,
Maynooth, was grudged to the Roman Catholics. (Divide,
divide.) He would also call their attention to the actual
difficulties thrown in the way of the incorporation of insti-
tutions by Roman Catholics. Even after the foundation of
Maynooth, the statute of Edward—the statute of supersti-
tious uses, which prevented gifts for Catholic purposes—
was imported into Ireland by a theory that although that
act did not actuallyextend to Ireland, yet it would be against
public policy to permit gifts falling within the terms of the
statute to be made in the sisterisland. And by the doctrine
of Cypres, many gifts bestowed by the wills of Catholics for
Catholic charities wore given to Protestant charities for
the law finding a fund fixed for charitable purposes, which
being Catholic, could not be carried out, administered that
charitable fund as nearly as they could in accordance with
the trust, by giving to a charity, but that charity one of the
rival faith. Even so late as the time of Sir R. Peel's Govern-
ment an attempt was made to obtain the means of dot)
applying bequests for Roman Catholic charities, but the
reply to this was a statute of mortmaim This act was not
so restrictive in its terms as the statute of George 11.
The statute of George 11. exempted all the colleges of learn-
ing and grammar schools. They had not done the same,
but far otherwise, with the Roman Catholics of Ireland.
In every Roman Catholic diocese of Ireland there was a
Roman Catholic seminary, in which the Catholic youth re-
ceived,their education, and not one of these seminaries
was exempted from the restrictive clausesof the Charitable
B ;quests Act. For the last fifty years the Roman Catho-
lics hael not enjoyed the same immunities in this respect
as the Protestauts of England. (Divide.) But if they had
not provided themselves with the means of endowing insti-
tutions for themselves, were they justified in withdrawing
this grant on the ground that they hat provided institu-
tions for them ? That would indeed be an excuse. (In-
terrupt ion, and cries of " Divide ")
Mr. E. BALL rose to order, observing that this was a
sort of mockery.
Mr. Sergeant SHEE said he was obliged to the hon.
member for interfereing for his protection. (Laughter.)
As the majority of the house were disposed to hear him—
(cries of oh, oh)—he thought it right to speak on subjects
which they ought to consider before they came to a vote.
If the Protestant establishment fulfilled all the objects for
which a religious establishment existed—disseminating
piety and Christian knowledge—there might be some
reason for withdrawing this grant. But how stood the
fact? In the most Protestant province of Ireland—the
province of Armagh—at the census of 1831 there was a
population of 3,126,000. Out of that number there were
only 517,030 members of the Established Church. There
wereb3B,ooo Presbyterians, and 1,950,000 Roman Catholics.
In the three other provinces there was a population of
4,817,000 persons, of whom only 331,000 were Episco-
palians. (Oh, oh.) They must be ashamed of it. It
is impossible to look round the house, and not see the
blush mantle on their cheeks. (Loud laughter.) If they
withheld this endowment by whom were the children
to be baptised? by whom was the sacrament of marriage
to be solemnised, or the other holy ordinances? He had
only one word more to say. (Loud cheers and laughter.)
He was obliged to the house for that cheer. In the course
of the discussion which took place on this subject last year
it was stated that the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland
had passed a resolution to the effect that they could do
without this endowment. He was informed that that
statement was a mistake, and that those prelates were of
opinion that the endowment was, in fact, essential to the
Roman Catholic Church.
Mr. NE WDEGATE rose amid loud cries of " Oh,
oh !" He had only to sweep away the fallacy of the hon.
and learned member (Mr. Sergeant Shee), that the bill
would sweep away the property of Maynooth. It would
do nothing of the kind. All that it would do was to abolish
the endowment. Without any similar endowment there
were in this country eleven amply endowed and efficient
Roman Catholic colleges. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON —Sir, I cannot refrain from ex-
pressing the pain I feel at the renewal of the discussions:to
which the motion of the hon. member for North Warwick-
shire has led. (Hear.) It makes one fancy that we hare got
back to the period when this house was the arena of con-
tentions between those who were advocating the removal
of the disabilities of the Roman Catholics and those who
considered that removal fatal to the constitution of the
co'lntry. I had hoped, and we were told, that when
Catholic emancipation was carried we should hear no more
of these theological and religious discussions—(hear, hoar)
—that we should know nothing of the religion of any
member unless we followed him into his place of worship
on a Sunday. I regret exceedingly that these anticipa-
tions have not been fulfilled, and that we are doomed to
these annual and periodical returns of recriminating dis-
cussions on matters which ought to remain between
each man and his own conscience—(hear, hear)—of which
his neighbour has no right to judge—(hear, hear)—and
on which a deliberative and legislative assembly ought
not to be engaged. (Hear, hear.) I humbly submit
to the hon. member for North Warwickshire that
the main ground on which he founds his motion
is irreconcilable with those principles which I consider he
most tenaciously holds. The ground upon which he rests
his motion is that no man should contribute towards the
maintenance of a religion to which he does not subscribe.
Why, sir, is the hon. member for North Warwickshire an
advocate for an Established Church? I imagine that he
is, and that no man in this house is more firmly its adhe-
rent. But does the hon. member for North Warwickshire
—he being a Sincere and zealous Protestant—adhere to the
principle of the exercise of private judgment, and that
every man should form his religious opinions according to
the doctrines he may hold ? If he does hold that prin-
ciple, does he believe that in a free country like this there
can be identity of religious opinions, and that there should
not be a great variety of religious sects? (Hear, hear.)
Why, sir, the only manner in which the hon. member
could reconcile his adherence to the Established Church
with a principle that no man should coptribute to a reli-
gion he does not profess, is by an overruling and tyran-
nical pow,er to compel every man to belong to the Esta-
blishment, and not to allow any diversity of religious
opinion. The doctrine of the hon. member is utterly in-
consistent with those fundamental principles which I
am sure he, as a Protestant and friend of the Establish-
ment, must necessarily wish to maintain. My objection
to the motion, sir, is, in the first place, that to abolish
this endowmens and repeal the acts relating to the college
would be a breach of faith towards th Irish nation.
(Hear, hear.) It is perfectly true, as has been stated,
that the Roman Catholic brethren are not dependent on
this grant. No doubt the wealth of the Irish Catholics
would enable them to erect other establishments for the
same purpose, if this one were taken away. But that
would be ma ungracious act towards the people of Ireland,
indicating a want of sympathy with the feelings of the
nation. It would be a breach of faith as connected
with what passed at former periods; and on that ground,
if on no other, I should resist the motion of the honour-
able gentleman. But I resist it also on broader
grounds. I resist it on grounds connected with the in-
terests of the United Kingdom—with the interests of the
British empire. The hon, gentleman has invited me to
read all the books used in the course of instruction at May-
nooth. I certainly have no intention of accepting the
challenge. (A. laugh.) But, for argument sake, I will
admit there may be those things in these books which we
might wish were not to be found there. But let me ask
him whether, as regards the ordinary instruction of youth,
there is nothing to bo found even in those classical hooks
which are placed in the hands of youth—nothing to be
found which some persons might not wish to be submitted
to the eyes and instilled into the minds of the youth of the
country? (Murmurs.) But, admitting that there may be
in these books things which in point of doctrine and prin-
ciple are objectionzble, I have that confidence in the Irish
people and in the Catholic priesthood of Ireland, that I do
not fear those doctrines would impair their loyalty any
more than the sarcasms of the hon. member for North War-
wickshire. Sir, the ground on which I call on this house
to maintain this grant has regard to the interests of the
United Kingdom. I hold that if this endowment were
withdrawn, and the priesthood of Ireland should procure
their education abroad, that it might be a worse education,
but it would be a foreign education. (Hear, hear.) But
I vent them to have an Irish education. (blear.) I may

differ from them in all their religious teaching ; but i e is
for the interest of this country that they should be edu-
cated at home, in order that they may be Irishmen in heart
and in feeling. As long as they get that education, and re-
ceive their instruction in their native land, I am content
to rely on their loyalty, and will never consent to repeal
their endowment. (Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER, in reply, proceeded to answer two
points raised in the speech of the noble lord. He held it
to be a true Protestant principle to respect the right of
private judgment. He would leave Roman Catholics full
power to exercise their civil and religious sights, and he
wou'd let them educate their own people. All he protested
tte.ainst was, that, as there was an Established Church, the
Government and Parliament of this country should foster
and support a Church formed in exact opposition to that
Protestant Church, and which the Roman Catholics said
they should never be contented until they had destroyed.
(FIG tr.) The noble lord talked of breach of faith. Why,
there was the high authority of Sir Robert Peel and the
noble lord the member for the City of London that no
breach of faith was involved —that the endowment was a
free gift, made with certain expectations, which had not
been realised. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FORTESCUE, amid great manifestations of impa-
tience, moved the adjournment of the debate. (Cries of
" No !" and " Divide !")
Mr. MOORE saw no reason why the debate should be
adjourned, except that some gentleinan'might apprehend
the success of the motion, and some its defeat. The people
of Ireland were prepared for either fortune, and he hoped
the Government were so too. (Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON was prepared to go to a division;
but at the same time if hon. members wished to adjourn
the debate he would not object to their being gratified.
(Cries of " No, no !" and " Go on.")
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was put,
but there being only a few cries of " Aye," it was nega-
tived without a division.

The house then divided on the main question, when the
numbers wero—

For Mr. Spooner's motion
Against it
Majority against the motion - 8
The announcement of the numbers was received with
loud cheers.